An ongoing discussion (that won’t end any time soon) regarding Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) are the subjects of the Cross of Christ and the Resurrection of Christ.
Is one more important than the other?
Many SGM members and ex-members believe the Cross and the Resurrection were somehow, some way put into an adversarial system against each other with the former being over-emphasized and the latter outright neglected.
Often the discussion turns into an argument, a push-me-pull-ewe and Chicken/egg debate with staunch defenders on both sides.
Opinions vary on this, and I realize I am opening a can of worms, but we need to have this discussion without terms dictated to us, save our reliance on scripture. Even at the risk of chasing our tails around the theological mulberry bush, I would really like to hear from you, and how this subject has played out in/blessed/affected your lives.
Recently Jeff Purswell answered five questions in a five-part series on CJ’s blog.
I’d like you to answer or comment on them (it’s okay to share what you think in regard to Jeff’s answers, but I would really like the bulk of comments to be you answering or commenting):
1: Will focusing on the cross lead us to neglect the resurrection?
2: Why focus on a crucified Savior when we serve a living Christ?
3: Will a cross-focus lead us to be more aware of our sin than of our new life in Christ?
4: Doesn’t the book of Acts stress the resurrection more than the cross?
5: Will paying so much attention to the atonement lead us to make too much of the cross?
Psalm 73
The End of the Wicked Contrasted with That of the Righteous.
1Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11They say, “How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?”
12Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15If I had said, “I will speak thus,”
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.
Beloved in Christ:
The following originally appeared as a comment by Christian brother “MB” under “The KingsWay Way” post at 2010/08/28 at 1:12 pm.
It is compelling, and many of you will see yourself in MB’s words.
Let me get out of the way so you can read this, and share your thoughts…
–pk
~~~
What started as a response to GNHB [GenderNeutralHumanBeing], has turned out to be a lengthy explanation and confession of sorts. I did not intend this but spoke freely. I hope that the explanations and examples from my life might help some in their quest for God’s truth and the rich fulfillment He alone brings.
GNHB- Thank you for posting here, I mean it. I assume you are one of my brothers at KCC. I would like to touch on one idea you talked about that affects both of us. If the following does not apply to you, please disregard. A lot of the following applies to me and perhaps to others. You said, “Alright! They lied! (leaders) Are you happy?” They lie, you lie, we all lie; what’s a person to do. A witch hunt? No. Deal with it. Cope, its part of your life, its part of my life. Do I have your sentiments correct? Yet, you state in your earlier post that you are angry for how all the lies here are affecting your friends. I would be angry too. You are upset about these lies here, however not so much about leadership’s? (If they have). There is a clear contrast that you seem to accept in your treatment of individuals. You are very upset at one group of liars but you are not of another. You seem to give your leaders a pass. It is not about the lie per say, but what you do in response to it, more specifically, what you believe about them. I would like to suggest that you believe that leadership is somehow fundamentally different and they deserve different treatment. You may also believe that it is not yours or the church’s responsibility to hold them accountable. We all understand that when we lie there are consequences and we also recognize that when leadership participates in lies the consequences are magnified. So if you do believe that leadership should be treated differently, the difference is greater accountability not giving any sort of pass.
The culture of deferment to leaders is well entrenched. There are numerous examples of this. These examples are understood well from Irv’s post on Survivors, Kingsway#50. Thank you, Irv. I would like to use examples from my own life to help illustrate this and demonstrate a degenerating cycle that I have been part of and caught in. The cycle goes like this. First, a well positioned lie (that is I believe error).Second, cloaked idolatry (that is my actions support and convince me of the lie) Third, deception (that is by giving in to the lie in both belief and practice I cannot see the lie for what it is). As I have attempted to look with open eyes, study the word and ask God, a new awareness has come that has helped me see the fruit of this in my life.
I would like to interject here that we also have to be careful that we esteem men more by their actions of godliness and love than by their talk of it. A prime example of this is Bob’s actions toward the lost sheep (Steve W.) as compared to leadership’s actions. Please understand, this is not about condemning our leaders or leadership but about recognizing truth in word and deed and how it protects all of us in the body of Christ.
Okay the fact is, lies affect us all deeply. Lies are the very foundation of deception. Lying is not a small matter, for the moment we participate in this darkness, if we persist; we begin to lose our ability to see the truth. We may become deceived. Lies have affected me and they have affected you. I believe, you and I are in this very place because of lies. Deception is serious. When deceived, we no longer fear God but don’t even know it. I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment. While I wouldn’t state it this way, my heart was drawn to this reality, this love. Think about this. Think about our confidence in these things. I remember in the earlier days being enamored by our church and SG. To be honest, I was more interested in the inviting people to church then inviting them to Christ, sad I know. For a while KCC and SGM seemed to me to be a Christianized sociological masterpiece of 30 something friendships. I loved it. I was far more interested and better at “love bombing” visitors then evangelism and discipleship. Why? Because this is what I wanted, this is what stimulated me, this is what I believed in, along with God of course. It was the belief (lie) that these things (leaders, church, and organization) will meet my needs for fulfillment that caused the worship of them. So, I took these otherwise very good things and in my belief (lie) looked to them, submitted to them and worshipped them synonymous with God. By believing this lie I grew in my own deception. While these thoughts were all supported by half truths, I became a religious idolater. As I lost my ability to discern, I got caught in this vicious cycle. As long as I accepted the lie, Satan the father of lies, had a place to work in my life. Having believed that I needed these things for my meaning and fulfillment, I also believed that I must protect them, guard them and defend them because in large part, this is where I believed life was found. I remember not too long ago how personally offended and callous I felt toward people who dared to leave our church. Very noteworthy was my lack of love and judgmental thoughts toward a brother or sister for deciding to worship elsewhere. I took this somewhat personally, they rejected what I loved. I struggled with this. This was some of the fruit of my religious idolatry. It saddens me today to think about this. I have always thought of myself as more independent and believed that I was not so deeply affected however I was deceived. I write this because this may be affecting you as well. I wish I were totally free of these effects however as I have recently discovered, I am not.
What we see in this simple illustration is how Christ and his love were obscured by “this whole church thing”. My love and adoration of leaders, church, and organization contended for the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ. In Exodus 34:14, God’s name is jealous. God is a jealous God. He is jealous for his glory. He is jealous for us to love and obey him not only because it brings him glory but it also brings us good. He purifies us out of his love for us, even the very best of things that interfere with his receiving all glory. In my opinion, this is exactly what is going on at KCC and SGM. Because of his great love, he is purifying his bride.
I would not have believed that I put leaders, church, or organization before Christ, his Word or the Holy Spirit. I simply believed these things were part of my love for God. What challenged this was an awareness of the degree to which I desired, preferred, depended and acted on these things instead of God’s Word and his Spirit. By God’s grace this became very clear to me the other day.
I have a real burden for our church. I knew of a significant meeting last Friday a week ago with the CGLs and the pastors. Believing that what is unseen (spiritual) is more an essence of reality (eternal) then the seen, I knew that and unseen battle for truth would take place. Prayer, a primary weapon of our warfare would be needed. I believed that members should gather at the church to stand in the gap and pray while the meeting was taking place. Yet, I had a check to that thought and leading. Unsure of how this meeting would be received by leadership, I called my CGL. He was concerned as well and suggested I call people to pray. I sent out an e-mail through a friend instead. I believe many people prayed fervently and God answered. What could be missed here and what should not be missed was my deferment to what (I believed) my leaders wishes were over what I believed God’s wishes were. Whether my leaders would have liked this or not is not the real issue. I made following man more important than following God. In this brief interaction, I woke up to the depths of deception that I still had accepted in my own heart. Could it be possible that I neglected prayer, corporate prayer and obedience to God because I had willingly accepted the fear of man in the name of submission? I know the truth. It is idolatry to fear man more than God. We have fancy ways to justify it all, but thanks be to God for his revelation and repentance. God is a jealous God. He will not give his glory to another, be it leaders, a church or an organization. He will purify his bride, which is all of us, for our good.
With regards to quarrels, dissensions, and fractions of which we are all concerned at KCC, we must realize that these occur because of conflicting beliefs as to where life is really found. If we believe, consciously or unconsciously that leadership, church, or an organization has made our living significant, than when this is threatened we seek to preserve and defend it or else we lose life. As David Neeham has said, “… a goal (in this case, optimal church) can easily become THE goal and as such it becomes the measurement of where life or meaning is to be found. It then becomes an idol-a very fragile idol at that. As an idol, they cannot help but cast a shadow on the priority of God-his joy, his sufficiency, his glory”. My concern is that as long as idolatry and deception of this kind remains, darkness remains. Our only hope for true unity is found in the complete emptying of ourselves to obey Christ and see Christ as our all in all. His Spirit will lead us and Word will guide us. Our faith and confidence is in God alone.
I’m sorry for extending this post, but I must exhort my brothers and sisters at KCC to obeying God’s word and pray. With that said, the words to this song,” How He Loves” by David Cowder are awesome.
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realize just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all
Yeah, He loves us,
Oh! how He loves us
At over 670 comments, “Your Story 1″ is now closed to comments. You can read it here.
This thread, “Your Story 2,” is a continuation, and is for you.
Posters-there are no rules. Change the name you normally use if you like. Say whatever you like with no fear of judgment or correction. Say what you want, in any way that you choose. This is our own little no spin zone.
For those who choose to reply to posts, let love rule. No correction allowed here. If you must puke your venom at someone, jump over here and address me. I won’t delete it, so the whole world will be able to behold it’s glory forever. OK, that was over the top. Actually a few thousand people a day for as long as this blog remains.
If we see a hint of “get over it”, or “it’s your fault” in this category, we’ll delete your comment. In Christian love, of course.
Posters, remember what the great theologian William Wallace (played by Mel Gibson) said.
FREEDOM!
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