If you are reading this, re-read the Polity article.  I am begging you for change.  There are many who need solid hope for both drastic and lasting change within SGM, if we are to thrive and grow together.

We need change, and we need it now.

In Christ because of Christ,

–John

Your conversation concerning former President Clinton reminded me of something I heard soon after he left office. In brief, it concerned how Mr. Clinton, apparently concerned that prayer and bible reading were being denied in public schools, which he thought was unconstitutional, had gotten the U.S. Dept. of Education and U.S. Attorney General’s office together so that quidelines could be given to schools on what they could and couldn’t legally do. I don’t know if this fits into the “prophesy” that was mentioned but I offer the following information for those that may not know about it. While his actions may not be what most would call “christian” they did allow children to practice their faith uninhibited by the local school government.

Nothing in the First Amendment converts our public schools into religion-free zones, or requires all religious expression to be left behind at the schoolhouse door. While the government may not use schools to coerce the consciences of our students, or to convey official endorsement of religion, the public schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day.

Religion is too important in our history and our heritage for us to keep it out of our schools…[I]t shouldn’t be demanded, but as long as it is not sponsored by school officials and doesn’t interfere with other children’s rights, it mustn’t be denied.

President Clinton
July 12, 1995

See these links for more info:

http://www.christiananswers.ne.....ssion.html

http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/08-1995/religion.html

And/Or Google with:

clinton, dept of education, bible reading

Jim — if I were in a counseling situation with you, I’d sure love to have that kind of “word” spoken to me.   What I especially appreciate, is that after that, you did not go around claiming to be a prophet.

Unfortunately, I was once on the receiving end of a ”word from the Lord” that I know for sure was NOT accurate at all — it was so far off base that it’d have been comical if the person who delivered the “message”  had not been so sure it was from God.   (The basic premise was completely faulty: sort of like assuming someone is childless when they actually  have several kids — not one of those “you’ve got pride” things.)   But I stood there, listened, and thanked him politely before going outside and having a good laugh.   What I SHOULD have done was say, politely, “I’m afraid you’ve got me mixed up with someone else”  or even less politely, “Who the heck do you think you are?”

A good friend of mine is a cessationist — I can see his point from time to time — but I believe that God can pretty much do what he wants to!

There was one time that scared the heck out of me. A small group of folks were praying. One of the guys had cancer. A sentence popped into my head, which wasn’t the type of speech I normally use. I looked at the guy, and said what was in my head. In my words (this isn’t how I said it), I told the guy, “this isn’t going to kill you”. I lost sleep that night….

The guy is cancer free.

God rarely uses me in this way, although I know a couple of people who He uses in this way often.

But I’m not a prophet, and neither are they 

Everyone,
 
I’d like to think that the New Testament church was a blueprint for us today.  There is nothing in there that said any of it would stop, just because it was forgotten for a time.  The church in America has relatively little power.  Wonder why that is?  My husband says that it is because most people don’t believe in miracles anymore.  That is sad for us all.  I could write a book on what I think of all this, but I’ll restrain myself…:)

Canary,

I can’t give you a verse off the top of my head, which is why I’m using terms like “IMHO” and “for what it’s worth”. I think my position is Biblically informed, but Dennis is right in once sense-I don’t have time right now to explain why I feel this is correct.

Besides, everyone knows I’m right anyway 

Jim is a very busy man, so please do not waste his time by making him look for scriptures that do not exist.

Sincerely yours,

Dennis
Sr Prophet

The Senior Pastor terminology doesn’t bother me – it’s simply a designation within an organizational structure, not an addition to scripture or gifting.   What DOES bother me is the POWER and CONTROL that is often assumed by the bearer of such title.  It’s difficult, in human nature to be both  a leader AND a servant.  Leading is easier to us as fleshly creatures. 

Concerning prophecy:  I remember when Clinton was elected, a document was circulated around our SGM church, containing  a “prophecy” from a NON-SGM person of some note in charismatic circles (don’t remember who), that phrophesied that Clinton would have some kind of major spiritual change, and do all kinds of “Christian” things etc.  I don’t remember the specifics of the “prophesy”, but I do know that things didn’t quite turn out that way!  But nobody ever came back and admitted that So-And-So gave a false prophecy and is therefore, according to scripture, not an actual prophet. 

So, in an SGM setting, someone on the “prophecy team” steps up to a microphone after being given approval by the head prophet — and tells forth something they think God “would say” — or reads something God DID say from scripture.   I know people who speak of their “prophetic gift” – but I’ve never heard any of them refer to themselves as a prophet.   It’s muddy water – difficult to discern – difficult to define.  And, as I learned long ago, when there is freedom in a worship setting, large or small, there are sometimes abuses of that freedom, anything can happen, and some of it is purely of the flesh.  After being in worship settings where someone who wasn’t wrapped real tight stepped up with a few very off-the-wall  & lengthy ”thus saith the Lord”s,  the prophecy screening seemed reasonable to me, but it begs alot of questions. 

For what it’s worth, I don’t. I don’t think that there is any such thing as a prophet today, although I believe that the gift of prophecy is alive and well.

Do you think that any of these elders are also prophets? Do you think the calling of prophet is still functional in the church today, and if so, how does it function? If a church had a Sr Prophet, would that be just as Biblical as a Sr Pastor?

I think the key word is foundation. The church gathered today is led by elders. Elders are members of a local Christian community whose qualifications are recognized by that community. They lead by example and by instruction, never lording over their fellow brethren, who are their peers. They are not professionals, or even “bi vocational”. They follow Paul’s instruction to elders in Acts 20 and provide for themselves, since they participate in interactive meetings and have no desire to be the center of attention.

They are hard to find, unless you really know how to look for them, because our land is full of professionals with buildings we call churches (or the church building) and staff and budgets and office hours who give 45 minute lectures on Sundays. These men call themselves pastors, which means shepherd in English. Since we speak English in the US, we should introduce these men to our friends in this manner: “this is Bob. He’s my shepherd”.

Adding “I shall not want” is optional, as is: “he was hired by our church to be our shepherd, but would rather not be called a hireling”.

IMHO 

Everyone at SGM knows who the pastor of their church is, but ask them who their prophet is and you will get a blank stare. SGM says they believe that prophets still function in the church today, but who are they? Does the prophet have authority over the pastor? The church is built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets – Eph 2:20. 1 Cor 12:28 says that God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, and third teachers. Prophet is always mentioned before pastor/teacher. So does he have more authority in the church? If he does, then how come no one knows who he is? Why no senior prophet or associate prophet? Why no profit in training or prophets college?

So who is the prophet and what is his function? Is he a leader in the church? What authority does he have?

Thoughts anyone?

Outstanding! Very well said!

Denominations???  They are man created.  I don’t see them ANYWHERE in scripture.  We have made a mess out of this thing we call “church.”  I personally avoid them like I do most salesmen.

Be persuaded by Godly men, those sheep dogs, who drive you back to the SHEPARD!  They are real servant, and they catch your attention like real grace does.  They are rare in our day because most who call themselves leaders are trying to build an organization.  Then they become addicted to its benefits and spend the rest of their lives protecting it, often serving IT over those they start out to minister to.