Comments on: Concerned?

By: Tom

Tom — Wed, 19 Oct 2011 01:55:19 +0000

Hi Jim. Wish this blog were more active and that you were posting more. I’ve appreciated the balanced tone that this site has managed to achieve – I think its the best example of truth, challenge, and avoiding the extremes. Please consider more active posting and topic discussion. Of course you may be unable to do that due to life circumstances – this is an encouragement.

By: Joy

Joy — Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:27:17 +0000

Dear Bloggers,
This blog has been very interesting to me. I have been a member of a SGM church for 2.5 years and I have never experienced the things you are writing about. In fact my pastor shares from the pulpit a very accepting message of joy in Christ and is extremely transparent. I am sorry some of you have experienced these hurts, but maybe there are thousands out there who have come to Christ through this church. We all have to be careful not to interpret the church membership and the leadership as Christ Himself. We are all just sinners trying to pick up our cross each day and make a difference??? I am praying that healing occurs for each of you - There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus!

By: Waters

Waters — Fri, 15 Apr 2011 03:18:50 +0000

Unassimilated,
I would just like to say, I always appreciated your very factual postings on Survivors.
You obviously were in a place to “be in the know” of the behind-the-scenes activities—and —the mechanics of the SGM Corporation. Amazing to think, that all you witnessed and know to be true about SGM…is probably somehow, very important for factual verifications. As you stated, you are on a ‘blog hiatus’ (fully understand that!)—and I remember you mentioning a health issue—I hope its ok to say, there have been times the Lord has brought you to mind to pray for you — and, I pray you are truly receiving Gods specific renewal of strength, restoration, and faith-filled hope……..

Juli, So many good points—and ugh, I cringe at the memory of feeling an aversion when we sang the songs of wormhood and lowliness (SGM ‘doctrinally sound’ music,Inc)
Part of our restoration of soul and spirit is to now fully worship ‘in spirit and in truth’—focusing on Jesus; the love of God,; His faithfulness; Gods power and awesomeness;
and His actual depth of uncomprehensible love and value of….His redeemed –us!!!!
There is no room for the “us and them” mentality SGM propagates (even in their music
distribution/marketing) when the focus becomes our Risen Savior Redeemer — we become the Body, entering into His gates with our praise focused upon Him— instead of our focus on our own (depraved, worm) self.

By: Juli

Juli — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:13:29 +0000

RunGirl – I wouldn’t agree that their lyrics are “doctrinally sound” – unless you AGREE with their doctrines and interpretation of the bible – Total Depravity as just one example, is TOTALLY present in all their songs, reminding the worshiper he is a worm and always will be, but for the grace of God on his pathetic soul. The music is meant to create a response in the worshiper, but is it worship as Jesus said in Spirit and truth, or is it more to gain and maintain control? My personal opinion is – read the lyrics and see the pattern or emotions being “pushed” – then ask yourself if it is about controlling the masses by creating a mindset of inability and depravity – hence, YOU need US (the Church_ because you are so screwed up.. Very Catholic of them, I’d say. Guess CJ (and other SGM members) couldn’t completely get past their Catholic roots.

By: Ellie

Ellie — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 23:28:24 +0000

I agree, Steve. I cringe when I hear it on our nearby Christian station…which, fortunately, is not very often!

By: Steve240

Steve240 — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:08:41 +0000

One big problem that I see with SGM Music is that it helps legitimize the group Sovereign Grace Music. When one sees all this music they put out then it helps their credibility vs. people seeing what the group really is.

By: Ellie

Ellie — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:53:05 +0000

Miss you, Unassim!!! {{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}

By: Unassimilated

Unassimilated — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 01:53:44 +0000

As for your concerns about SGM music as a controll.
Their is a danger when a movement of local churches propagates an “us vs them”, or in-group/out group mentality amongst its members.
SGM members are taught to stick to SGM approved dress codes & behaviors. Asked that other SGM members be your primary friends. They let you know of approved or “recommended” books & music. SGM members are further commended to lean towards a particular use of time and resources that usually adds to the pool of free resources or base attendance of SGM churches and events. This all of course, because SGM is where the gospel is “done right.”
So SGM music is part of the approved SGM lifestyle as a thing you can buy and use, or give as a gift. (They know, and budget recording projects according to base sales within the family of churches.)
A part of an SGM teaching/Sunday, it helps to give one the feeling that your Sunday experience was a”biblical” one, even if the message itself was off base, and self serving.

By: Unassimilated

Unassimilated — Sun, 10 Apr 2011 01:32:21 +0000

I am jumping of a self imposed blog hiatus to answer, so if I disappear on you, apologies in advance.
The answer to your question may come from how these SGM songs and albums arise.
- A group of songs, mostly from established SGM songwriters, the Altroge’s, and Bob Kaufflin, a few from other SGM members are collected around a theme. (Used to be some Steve and Vikki Cook ones as well) The final selections for a project are made by what is best described as a committee.
- Bob Kaufflin reviews them for structure, ease of congregational sing-ability (Key and form). Edits and “suggestions” made.
- Pastoral meeting as to lyrical content and form – Edits and “suggestions” made.
- Approved set of songs go to Sal Oliveri, a hired Nashville producer, who records the music with a group of hired musicians, also known as session musicians.
- Sal then records most of the vocals for these songs using SGM member vocalist. This is usually done at SGM’s seven figure recording studio in Gaithersburg, MD.
- Songs are mixed, then re-reviewed, then mastered and sent off to manufacture.
- The mixed and mastered product is then unleashed onto the public.
Part of the bland may come from the intentional commissioned birth these songs have. Some could be that for many of the involved, they have little personal involvement in the recording or creation, other than it’s their “job.” The rest may come from the fact that they are meant to be a resource for the pastors and worship leaders of a church who “should be” (according to Bob) using worship songs that underscore the theological point of that days sermon.
None of the aforementioned is necessarily a criticism or praise of their process, just what it is, a very intentional, commissioned product that is formed within the confines of SGM theology, and how SGM intends it to be used.
So..
The battle between art and commerce is nothing new. Sometimes great art comes from commission, such as DaVinci and Michael Angelo. Other times commissioned art can become gross or obscene. Think Hollywood putting all the “right” elements into a movie that as the sum of its parts, stinks.
SGM Music seems to hit that wasteland of mediocrity between the two where nothing is wrong, and yet, there is not much that is right about it either.
Are their people that LOVE SGM music? Yep. Will future generations of composers be studying the compositional forms of SGM Music and the brilliance of how Bob chooses to resolve their complex, yet simplistic melodies, not a chance.
A friend notes that they tend to write and release music for, or from immediate, or short term seasons of the SGM church. And where an eternal perspective may be involved, their inward now focus kills any eternal value to their music as an art or expression, save the scripture quotes.
I would add that all expression comes from ones collective experience, vanity, and current perspective/understanding. Therefore I would say that the depth and experiance of SGM as a movement, local church, and expression of faith, are some what accurately summated in their music.

By: RunGirlRun

RunGirlRun — Sat, 09 Apr 2011 13:26:14 +0000

I just found this site this morning, and am curious about the SGM “Survivor” issue. (I’ve never attended any SGM church.) My question is whether the concerns about SGM’s “control” extends into the world of SG Music. It’s constantly lauded for having “doctrinally centered lyrics” (it’s true – because many of their lyrics are taken straight from the Bible). While their album concepts are good, the songs seem to be repetitions of the same 12 words, with little musical creativity or attempt to write better lyrics. Their “house music” sort of reminds me of “house coffee” or a “house special” at a restaurant: an item that a restaurant recommends, but ends up being not too memorable.
Forgive me for my critical tone. I love singing hymns and praise songs. But with the modern worship music culture the way it is now (in many cases, music = marketing = money?), I am curious as to SG Music’s influence and role in the SGM control issue.
Any comments and criticisms about my comment are welcome. Thaks for taking time to read my post.

Sincerely,
RunGirlRun

By: Nickname

Nickname — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:26:39 +0000

Thank you, Waters and Jim. The useless conjecture disturbed me greatly.

By: Steve240

Steve240 — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:15:35 +0000

Jim

I would agree.

I added my last post about Mahaney’s son due to all this concern that Missus has with the effect on Mahaney’s son. I was just showing one shouldn’t feel too sorry for him.

It is a shame that Mahaney’s apparent hypocrisy this time involved his son and thus sadly his son has to be mentioned.

Good to move to next topic.

By: Jim

Jim — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 05:24:26 +0000

I think it would have been ok to post a link to survivors and leave it at that. I really don't get the "let's talk about this here" line of thinking, when so much has already been said about the issue.

Next topic anyone?

By: Waters

Waters — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 05:15:40 +0000

Steve240,
In my perspective, further discussion of the CLC/CJ’s son incident,— and further speculation in regards to life as CJ’s son…is just not necessary. The focus need not be on the son.
I am asking this line of commenting to end.

By: Steve240

Steve240 — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 03:34:58 +0000

One other thought I had about C.J.’s son. It is sad that his youthful mistake has to come into such prominence due to his pastor’s position. Unfortunately that is one of the things that goes with being the son of a leader things like this.

One the other hand, just like his sisters, Mahaney’s son enjoys a lot of privileges that result from him being Mahaney’s son. His father is pretty well off financially. C.J. arranged for a number of prominent leaders to write him letters on one of his birthdays. I am sure he is treated well in a type of SGM “royalty” especially being the pope’s son. Chances are he will gift a house to him just like he did one of his daughters and son-in-law.
Despite this youthful mistake, by virtue of being C.J.’s son he is given an internship at SGM/CLC. I am sure as the boy gets older he is guaranteed a spot in the pastor’s college and a job as a pastor in SGM. I say guaranteed but sadly it may be something that C.J. might force upon the boy vs what he really wants to do. However, as has been discussed before, SGM pastors typically aren’t hurting financially.

Thus despite the boy’s actions getting a lot more scrutiny than most other boys being a drawback there is a lot of privilege the boy enjoys. I wouldn’t feel too sorry for him.

By: musicman

musicman — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:36:31 +0000

30 years….do us a favor, since you’re at CLC. Ask around and see if it’s true or not. Ask around and find out who started circulating this allegation and find out if it’s true. Ask CJ, ask his son, and then ask those who were kicked out and their families.
If it’s not true, then what has leadership done to those guilty of starting such a vicious rumor?
If it is true, then why hasn’t CJ been forthcoming and step down, like previous leaders whose children made poor lifestyle choices?
I’ll be awaiting your reply….

By: musicman

musicman — Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:28:58 +0000

Missus-
Have you voiced your issues to your leaders? I’m not asking you to list, just wondering if you’ve ever voiced your issues…

By: Steve240

Steve240 — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 23:53:48 +0000

Keepinstep

Well said.

Missus seems to keep missing the point. It is C.J. Mahaney’s hypocrisy and double standard that people are asking about etc. Googling the son was an attempt to see if there is other evidence that supports or denies this allegation.

If Missus is so concerned about Mahaney’s son what about the other kids that allegedly didn’t get pastoral recommendations and weren’t able to transfer to another school? Where is the concern for these kids and the affect this may have on their lives?

The fact that Mahaney’s boy attended another school for a year strongly supports this allegation. What other reason would there be for the boy to switch shools for a year? Bullying? No one would attack the prince since he isthe “pope’s” son. If it was to get away from being under scrutiny for being the “pope’s” son one would think he would have stayed there the remainder of his high school years. The smoking marijuana allegation sure seems to be possible.

For all you lurkers here is a link that gives the details and shows the posts Kris made about this on the Survivors blog:
http://sguncensored.blogspot.c.....n-and.html

Mahaney’s boy did a stupid thing and for all we know this is one isolated thing. We all have done things especially in our youth that we later regret. That isn’t the issue. It is more the double standard that C.J. Mahaney has for himself vs. other leaders.

By: keepinstep

keepinstep — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:23:59 +0000

If Larry T. and Bob S. were made to step down – publicly – before PDI and CLC (respectively) because of their inability to control their kids according to Mahaney’s standard, then Mahaney should be required to step down from his position of authority if indeed the allegations of his son’s misadventures are true.

At the very least, if a number of CLS families had their kids expelled or otherwise disciplined, and Mahaney’s son was involved IN ANY WAY, then Mahaney should have, at least, made plain his son’s involvement or lack of same to the CLC congregation. What REAL leaders do is to admit instances of wrongdoing, or even appearances of wrongdoing, in order to present both the truth and lessons-learned for the sake of the organization.

The discussion of this topic isn’t an attempt to ruin the boy’s reputation (else Kris would’ve given his full name, and search engines would’ve found it and made it available for searchers on his name), and attempts to make it such are being done are simple troll-ing.

The discussion is about one thing: whether Mahaney is qualified to be the leader of this organization, based on the reality, or even the appearance, of a serious double-standard in his handling of disciplining SGM leaders.

Given the whitewash of Gene Emerson’s behavior, and the disappearance of Brent D without any accounting to SGM’s congregations of why he left the movement, an honest observer has the right to ask why certain SGM leaders are forced to step down, other leaders are not, and why still other leaders are allowed to leave without any public accounting for their actions.

By: keepinstep

keepinstep — Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:07:01 +0000

Didn’t 30Years agree never to post again – after a previous, tiresome round of obnoxious postings and private emails with Jim? PK – would you please ban this guy?