There’s a couple of threads on the survivors site.

Here’s one that compares SGM to “normal” Christianity that covers a lot of folk’s concerns in making the comparisons. 

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....1#comments

Stunned
but grateful for your graciousness when walking into what has to be a confusing situation when you’re not in the know

YEP! I have a hard time navagating too because I was a blog newbie in general. After you read my post my email is there. I would be happy to help you, not discourage you from being a part of an SGM church, but help you wade through some of this. This is my story, and I have been a part way back even before SGM was PDI. I hope this serves you in what is wrong in SGM. The details are here if you take the time to read them. The Bolded and Unerlined are the core issues you need to exaimine. If you ever join and want to be used past childrens ministry, good luck. You already came inthe door with baggage.

DEBUTANTE
June 2nd, 2010 at 5:22 am
Monikers are such a funny thing! I had fun trying to pick one, and even though I am old, ok really old, this is a bit of a coming out party.  No, I did not buy a new dress, but who needs an excuse! J Since our release from Metro Life Church is now nothing more than a mere formality, { we have been on a 6 month sabbatical , just sent out the email to the leadership team informing them of our departure, and we now have a new home church} I can hopefully, from a very personal perspective, approach some of the issues on the blog. I have been following the musings and pains here on occasion but not religiously over the past year plus.  I had a lot of reading to do! < My eyes hurt!> Stunned its 5 am, I have you beat girl!
 My heart breaks for those who are still unpacking all of this. During this journey, I would { we would} say I WANT MY OLD CHURCH BACK! Dumb, I know that now. There is no such thing as status quo in the Kingdom of God. I have said to my husband many times that I can now see why some people never step foot in a church again. The pain can be overwhelming. It is like a divorce on steroids.  Can I say don’t let anything or anyone steal the joy that God has for you in a local church!  There is joy in the journey! There IS life past SGM and it is not meant to mirror what you came from only what God now has for you! I am experiencing it and it is because of who God is and his love for me, and YOU! I also realize that many here have come from other SGM churches and may have had different experiences. In my { our}  sum total of almost 22 years, we came to the point that we knew things were very wrong, especially after our post August Family Meeting get togethers with members of the leadership team. Within that year we had also felt God calling us to go.  That was His providential care for us.  We kept that to ourselves as we sought God as to the “what, when, where and the why”.
My biggest challenge here is in the entire reading of the “So Metro” page {as well as other Refuge blogs} the whole journey became very personal and quite painful for me.  Our son experienced being poorly treated at a Celebration conference that almost pole vaulted him out of the church.  After that incident he would show up late if ever and only at our insistence because he lived at home.  It was a terrible witness to his then girlfriend who came to Celebration because we paid for her to go. She stayed in the girl’s cabin because I wanted her to EXPERIENCE what church life was really like.  We did that because our first experience at Metro was the Celebration conference at UCF decades ago. From that experience we fell in love with the church and the people. What a huge mistake it was inviting our now daughter in law to see the results of what this caused in my son in his heart.  What a TERRIBLE witness that whole fiasco was for her. What was worse was what my son saw acted out by his older peers in the church.  He was spiritually bullied.  Until this point I have had no desire to engage this but to say Jim, you had no reason to apologize to Joey.  That whole weekend was a nightmare for us as parents.  We were guilty of allowing our son that level of spiritual abuse, but because of the source, we never rocked the tree hard enough. We were taught not to. Fear of man in a terrible thing!  Joey did try to call my son several months ago. I would assume after that blog post. {We knew about it because we had  email communication issues with Joey as well, so it made us aware of what going on in blog land.}  My son had informed me of the call. I asked him again what exactly what happened that night, and encouraged him to call Joey back. By this time he  and my daughter in law already left Metro. He wanted nothing to do with it.  I can say after reading the accounts as well as that of the other young man that it is all true. The only thing left out would be how it affected my son’s now bride and how she, a non member and outsider at that time, witnessed nepotism in the church.  PK ‘s have the potential to be a dangerous breed.
We were one of those couples who met with leadership on more than one occasion and were shut down when wanting to be used.  We were told by old home group leaders, some who have left the church that they were told not to use my husband if he ever asked. I got to the point that we would chose a home group based on who gave it pastoral oversight hoping for someone who had faith in us. We were proactive in wanting to be used and made it known; couples counseling, beta class for new believers, home group leadership, and teaching hospitality. We asked, wanted to be considered, be submitted, be taught and groomed. We requested to be trained and equipped. We felt like we were constantly shelved. When we met with leadership, we got told not to “toot our own horn, let another man recognize your gifts” or everything we brought to them was full of sin. Even some home group leaders sang the same song when you approached them about anything. You are just “full of pride” if you questioned them or refuted their thoughts. We get it, we are full of sin. I am a worm, and Jesus must still be in the tomb. I am sure you get my point.
We loved our leadership so much that we supplanted our ability to hear God for what we thought was God speaking through them.  We did all that because they walked us through so much garbage {sin, and not just a little, horrendous things, for which we are grateful} in our lives; we felt their assessment of us as a couple had to be correct. L In all of that we forgot the finished work of Jesus on the cross for us and in our own lives. We forgot God’s assessment of us when we repent!  We felt like we were forever in purgatory, to use an Old Catholic phrase. Sound a bit codependent?  { I do hate that term} It was the pull of closeness, family as in church family, deep relationships that spanned many years, and love of those folks that kept us there.  When Danny “left” but not “left” things changed radically.  It still breaks my heart to see what has and is still happening.  Since I FB’d about our now permanent departure, I cannot begin to tell you the amount of people struggling with staying in their SGM church, not just in Orlando, but all over. For us who were at Celebrations and regular conference goers, as well as worship conferences, the relationships we have reach far past just the Florida churches. We are far from the only SGM church affected.  Someone  here said it in one of the other blogs postings. Principle and Practice just do not match.
I am closing this chapter in the book of my life because another is and has opened.  I pray for those left behind and the leadership at SGM. I pray for the walking wounded especially Pastor Todd, his grace filled wife Michelle and their awesome young men. They ushered in faith and grace when they arrived almost 8 years ago. That whole situation is a tragedy that SGM will never live down at this point in time. They are a living banner of the need for change. I would love to see that change and restoration take place in a VERY public way. That would require truth and real humility on the part of the team at Metro.  SGM needs lots of  men like Todd who lifted people up, encouraged even when confronting sin, and had faith for God to change our hearts.
 I pray the blinders will come off and true, deep, heartfelt repentance that yields restoration and fruit will take place within the team left at Metro. I hope that if and when this happens certain members of the team will pick up the phone and seek out those who have left and repent for the spiritual abuse that has taken place by them as well as the level of arrogance and manipulation that has been used through the years when many, not just us, have sought God’s will in serving in the local church.  I pray motives will be revealed and Metro will experience revival and not the destruction it may be headed for. Even as I post this past week another member has left and another family is considering leaving.
 I personally know what it is like when self deception and your sin is so close you can’t see it, so it makes it easy to pray for these guys.  I still and always will love them. This is God’s church. Please pray. I take that back. Fast, pray and travail for His church.
Now I have outted myself. I think I will buy that new dress. Look out Ross, here I come! J J/K
That seems to be that battle cry here by the Phillips Clan. Out yourself.  I have no issue stating my name. More people should do the same.  Fear the Lord and not man. What can man do to you? That is what we were taught.  Although my name is no longer in the church directory, I am not hard to find.   AgelessDebutante@aol.com  Paula B. The B is for a reason. I would hate for my unsaved son who grew up at Metro and walked away from God to Google me and see all this. Not what I have to say, but about SGM as a whole. It would be a “I told you so “ I would rather not contend with.

GH,

1. Could you please point me in the right direction?

Since I am not the host of this site, I do not have the technical capabilities of giving you links (also ’cause I’m a little bird-brained in the techy department).  I would suggest you go to the top of the page and find “My Story”.  I would also suggest you go to the right of your screen under “Recent Posts” and catch up on some reading, especially PK’s “Man Instead of God”.  Reading about Jim (top of page) will tell you why this blog was started.   Then, check out the archives beginning in June 2008.  I realize this is a lot of reading but after you are done and your questions are still not answered, then we obviously have a problem in communication (which could very well be true).

2. If you had to give me two paragraphs that summarize the problems people in these blogs have, what would they say?

Frankly, I wouldn’t touch this question with a ten-foot pole because the problems in sgm cannot be covered in a meager two paragraphs, at least by this prolific tweety.  I don’t have time to write a treatise on the subject of “Why SGM Refuge Exists”.  We’ve all been doing that for two years now.  So, if you want more answers you will have to do your due diligence.  I’m sorry but the long way is the hard way – it takes time and research.  All your answers are on this little blog.

However, if anyone else wishes to tackle the two paragraph answer and thinks they can, please do!  That would be a fascinating accomplishment…

Enjoy the reading, GH.  You will meet some fabulous people as you trod through the all ready well-trodden halls of SGM Refuge. 

Sincerely, Canary

If you would like, I will call you on the phone and discuss this openly and honestly.  I have unlimited long distance.  If you want to give Jim your phone #, he can e-mail it to me.  Let me know the best time to call.

Briefly, I was in a  SG church for about 10 years.  They were the Green Berets of Christianity – the elite – God’s chosen few.  That is what sucked me in. I wanted to be a Green Beret for Christ.

SGM is prideful, controlling, manipulative, coercive, domineering, etc  – extremely spirtually abusive.  The accounts I experienced first hand were numerous and devistating.  Many marriages were ruined by heavy handed leadership and ungodly counseling.   Families were ripped apart and destroyed.  The accounts on here and Survivors are too numerous to mention.

I will spend as much time with you on the phone as you wish. It would take way too long to post all of the concerns, and I only type about 3 words per minute. Please let me know.

Welcome to the blog.  I would like to comment on a few things you said.

I very rarely see a clear explanation of what is wrong.
I think you must not have read much of the Refuge, especially the stories of experiences that many people have posted about.  Then there is the Polity post written by PK.  His explanation about the problems with church authority is written very clearly.

My concern is that the substance of criticism is pretty well inaccessible.
Do you mean that our words are not substance enough, that we are not telling the truth? 

We should not grumble. We should be able to give helpful criticism. Just saying something is bad is really dangerous. Emotions can get involved, and people can take one side or another without every really hearing a quality explanation that can foster good discernment.
I believe that after all this time there have been “quality explanations” given by the posters on this blog.  Again, have you read it all?  I will defend the posters here by saying they are not grumbling – they are making a difference by telling the truths that have been kept silent by sgm for so long.
We don’t just “say something bad”.  In fact, many posters have great compassion for the churches they had to leave.  Many of us still pray for our old friends.  Just because someone is bringing a truth to light does not mean he/she is grumbling.

Please give your criticism more constructively. Please make the substance of the criticism more accessible. Maybe the administrators can have a page that highlights some of main criticism.
Again, I think you could not have read much of this blog.  If  you plan to post more comments, it would be best if you knew the people you are speaking to by reading what they have experienced.  Go through the site.  Pay special attention to what Jim and PK have written about the polity of sgm and how it  has damaged people’s lives.  The requests you have made about what should be written HAVE BEEN WRITTEN.  You just have to spend the time reading the site.  Maybe then you will understand.  I say this as graciously as I can because you are speaking to friends of mine who have given much of their time loving each other and praying for the very people who have forced them out of sgm, and I my heart is to defend their valiant efforts.  Sincerely, Canary

I have had some experience with SGM, and I have had some concerns with it. Now, I have not had enough experience to know whether they pertain to a wide level (i.e., concerning all of SGM) or localized (i.e., concerning an individual or an individual church). However, I have received great care from a SGM church close to where I live. Even as I am not a member, I have received great spiritual care and encouragement in what was a low, dark valley of my life that lasted over a year (a considerable amount of time as I have been a Christian for 4 years now). So, I hope that my concern with this and other sites is objective because I have both praises and concerns.

I have briefly visited some of these sites that talk about the errors of SGM. Some have called it a cult. Some have said more or less harsh things than this. My concern is not that people are criticizing. My concern is not even what the criticism entails.

My concern is that the substance of criticism is pretty well inaccessible. Much of the criticism is meant to help those who can easily be taken in by SGM. Essentially, the people who need to hear about some of these SGM errors (please understand I am not taking a side) will most likely not be well-read or well-versed in theology or other matters that are addressed. Some people just need to be able to find a church and stick with it. They may not have been gifted in such a way as to discern the many layers that make up church polity or TULIP and what in these issues is Biblical. The information provided needs to be more accessible. Honestly, I hear ‘cult’ used a lot (I understand the administrator of this site does not agree with these sort of posts), and I very rarely see a clear explanation of what is wrong.

We should not grumble. We should be able to give helpful criticism. Just saying something is bad is really dangerous. Emotions can get involved, and people can take one side or another without every really hearing a quality explanation that can foster good discernment.

Please give your criticism more constructively. Please make the substance of the criticism more accessible. Maybe the administrators can have a page that highlights some of main criticism. I just have the sense that people are venting; sometimes it just seems like name-calling. Please understand I know the effect of using a term such as ‘name-calling; cliches evoke emotion and a pre-determined response. I don’t know what else to use, so consider what I am saying and don’t just react to that term. Those are my thoughts anyway.

For the sake of growth in love in Christ,
GH

When I was a sgc cgl (2001-2005), all my sr p wanted to know was:

If someone was hurting and needed care.

If someone had a really good praise report.

If someone said something outstanding, or was clearly growing in grace.

Re N. Denver, I can vouch for Robyn as a very godly young lady. She was obviously a N. Denver insider and could publicly create some “shock and awe” if that was her desire.

I heard you posted through an aquaintance, who is close to me and knows my story.  I am not sure how long you have been there, but Charlie Marmon (who was the Single’s Pastor-Intern for 2 years) was my husband.  Just to be clear, I have spoken to all pastors involved, including Steve Shank, Jim (from refuge) Jim from SGM and even CJ Mahaney.  If you would like to know my story, my concerns and or observations, please feel free to contact me @ robynstewart5@hotmail.com  Many people have asked me to post my story, but I prefer to share as needed to people who need to know.  There are plenty of “sticks on the bonfire” and I dont feel it necessary to post for all the world to see.  So, please, if anyone wants to know, or needs to ask me questions, do not hesistate to email me.  And also to be clear, I am interested in SPEAKING THE TRUTH.  Not hiding anymore, or as I called it for many, many years, “protecting the church”.  The truth is a powerful thing, and yes, it does divide….but better to speak the truth than allow myself to continue to be “used” to deceive people.  What happened to us is sad, what I was apart of is shocking to me, and if given an opportunity to speak truth, I am grateful for it.

God bless you as you press into the HOLY SPIRIT’s counsel and NOT MAN”S
Robyn Stewart

I am sure it is no different then anywhere else right now in a few SGM. We had one of our pastors in Orlando bail as well, and although we know bits and big pieces I know we do not know it all. I do know enough to know it was time to go.

Trust me, unless those that left speak out in a public way, you will never know the truth. That should speak volumes to you in and of itself! That is what started speaking to our hearts.

I am surprised your caregroup leader was kind enough to lie about nothing being wrong. If all that is going on in your church home OBVIOUSLY something is wrong! DUH!  Around here you got challenged in even asking and made to feel like you were not loyal, or there was no responseat all. When there was a “new season of transparency” you could get it all off your chest, but for  us the response was nil when it came to dealing with those specific issues we brought to the table.

Yes, caregroup leaders DO write reports and have for decades on people in their groups. Being gone now for the past 6 months, I never realized how creepy that it. This person is assessing you based on how you perform, open up, answer questions, seem loyal or FAT < Faithful, Accountable, Teachable> what you contribute, your marriage and family life.  Ask your church secretary to SHOW you a report. See what kind of responseyou get. Better yet ask your caregroup  leader to show you. Will you see an openness? Humility? Hope you see it in his response. Your caregroup leader is loyal to the leadership team. To you may be another story. In our case is was a 50/50 split. We had some great folks that were open about everything, constructive input, very relational and real. Of course in 22 years we had several we served under.

So, to get back on track,  if this leader has a slant  from which he sees you and/or your family < and lets face it, we all have the ability to do that with one another> that is the lens your leadership team sees you through. Worse yet, if your caregroup leader tends to be legalistic in his personal view, or a man pleaser, who knows what is being said. It is almost like a report card you never get to read or a job performance review you never get to evaluate and sign off on. 

Again, it never really stuck me until I was on the other side. As a couple we were held back from doing so much and it makes you wonder why not only us, but so many gifted people were never able to flourish.  Was it those reports? It is sad to think about the wasted years. It is glorious to know God can redeem each  one!

I do not know how long you have been in an SGM church. I can tell you things have changed radically from the top on down.  I have been around SGM before PDI when it was the Gathering of Believers.  All I can say is if you have a check, it best to make a break now and pray about what you are seeing and see what God is saying. When it is just you that is one thing, when it affects your family that is another story.  There is so much there that IS attractive, unfortunately there is much that is becoming more cult like < I am NOT calling SGM a cult, but it is taking on some of those aspects in the realms of pastors and how they hear for the flock and the don’t ask/don’t tell stances when things are so obviously wrong in the leadership teams>. A lack of FULL DISCLOSURE is a bad sign in any church body, especially one that promotes and values relationships. 

This bolding is intentionl for emphasis:

When you do not have complete TRUTH  to the entire congregations there are no real relationships! It is nothing more than a facade! When leaders refuse to disclose the entire truth because of this thing called LOYALITY, then folks, we have the makings of a cult. When SGM people try and twist that by saying  to those who leave, “well that’s how you see it from your point of view, be sure to tell people that when you talk to them” that again speaks of the control. I know this is an extreme example used here by one of the other bloggers, but as a woman it hits home. Rape is rape. It is not a matter of opinion. It is NOT a matter of one’s point of view.

 I hope that paints the picture is was intended to paint.
 God’s voice be heard by you and your family.
Paula