I’m wide open to any and all criticism, input or counsel.
If you want to make it public, this is the best place to do it. Your Story and Moving On would not be a good place. Those two threads are the “no correction zone”.
Please post your concerns or criticism here, and not in the Your Story or Moving On threads.
You’ll find posts in this thread that have been relocated here. Original poster names are used, and the posts are unedited (except one word from one comment). The dates will not coincide with the original posting date, as I moved a number of posts on the same day.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
stronger? Free? greater joy? It’s hard to believe.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Bobbi,
Only with God. But yes, it is possible!
September 20th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Gracie, please forgive me if I miscommunicated that comment and this is npt directed at you, but the site itself.
No, I don’t “feel the love”, hear joy, sense forgiveness or strength in these comments. Just wondering what the Corinthians would have done if they had internet? I maybe wrong, but it isn’t evident from a readers stand point. To “Just readers”, your site seems to say “to hell with christianity.” Who would want it. Your god seems awful small to “just readers” …….. And to those “SGM pastor who keeps googling his name to see if we’re talking about you” …..if you could only hear how that sounds.(maybe like a jr. high blog) Maybe it reveals something. Is this site is only for ex-SGM people? With an ax to grind? I’ve read almost all of this site to find some bit of sense . I’ve seen people with opposing views get rudely treated , given petty, judgmental comments. Open intellectual conversation does not seem welcome here. If that is your goal you’ve done a really good job. It makes a ”just reader” a bit ill. No opposer or just reader please.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
I would like to add that in Canary’s comment about her early experience i saw a slightist flicker of light. Hope it doesn’t get blown out with all the cool wind. ”just reader” looking for something…..bright or something …….warm, real, worth believing. My hope is skeptical with all that cold, cold wind.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Bobbi,
I don’t know what blog you’ve been reading, but it can’t be this one. You seem to have come on with preconcieved ideas, seeing what you expect rather than what really is. If you really have read everything here, then you will know that I have said several times how refreshing it would be to have a calm, logical discussion with someone who disagrees. Instead, they drive by with nothing but anger and emotion. You seem to be no different. But maybe (and hopefully) I’m wrong.
So, let’s try. What do you think of the lack of plurality of Elders in SGM? We’d really like to hear from you on this. Thanks.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Bobbi,
I do have to add that, unless you are willing to call countless believers who post and email Jim (not to mention phone calls) about their experiences liars, then you cannot mean to dismiss so lightly what you say you have read. Go to SGMsurvivors and read somemore. We aren’t making these things up. Again, I say that you are only seeing what you want to see. Surely you could try to be a little more thoughtful about the things that people post. We could really have an open dialogue with you if you are willing to at least admit that so many people with similar experiences couldn’t possibly be making it all up!
So, are you willing? This would be great! “Come, let us reason together…”.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
Bobbi,
You stated, To “Just readers”, your site seems to say “to hell with christianity.” Who would want it. Your god seems awful small to “just readers” ……..
I love God with all my heart. I daily seek to give all my life to God. I would never even type the words you did above, let alone think them. I pray everyday and I read my bible everyday. I need God like I need air to breathe. I would give up my family, my friends, my home, my everything for Christ. He is my very life. I have nothing without him. I am not living in unrepentant sin. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and He is everything to me. Everything on this earth is meaningless to me compared to Him.
I went to CLC in the Magruder days. The days when grace was preached more than total depravity. I am glad I am out of CLC because I find the doctrine of grace, the cross, and His resurrection to be more motivating to live a holy life than the doctrine of total depravity which was being taught more often. CLC did change doctrine and for me it was a hinderance. It did not draw me closer to God. I love Him because He first loved me. I am motivated everyday to work on areas of sin in my life beause He died for my sin. Why would I want to have any sin reign in my life when My Jesus died for it? I am madly in love with Christ. He is my all. My heart was not at that same place at CLC.
There is no scripture that states once you join a church you can never leave. Those that leave are not in sin. I am in a church. I serve there. I am building relationships there. My life is no less holy than yours because I don’t go to CLC.
I am in a better place now than at CLC because I am closer to God and living more for Him.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Hi Bobbi,
No need to apologize to me at all. I was not in the least bit offended. In fact, I thought you were a new poster who had also been wounded and was feeling rather hopeless. Maybe even one of those (I know of a few) who HAVE been injured to the point of saying “to hell with Christianity.”
What we have to communicate here is one of the most beautiful Truths in God’s Word. Redemption. We strive to let readers know that we fully understand and have experienced in very similar ways the pain and confusion they are going through. That they are not alone. That they are not crazy. Sometimes our stories are messy and ugly and rather desparate, but they are REAL. And, our stories continue. Canary and I (hope you don’t mind me speaking for you, canary!) have very similar testimonies of God’s Redemption. He picked us up, confirmed His Love and Faithfulness to us who had been shunned by our brothers, showed us PDI error, showed us our own error and healed the wounds of the past. Far from “to hell with Christianity,” we believe and have experienced the lovingkindness of God, for He did not leave us in despair! Like butterfly, we love the Lord dearly and are endeavoring to serve Him daily.
So, to me, the way to approach the ongoing SGM problem is NOT to ignore or minimize the errors or silence the wounded, just to publically spare the leaders of an organization embarrassment, especially when those leaders have been approached countless times over many years in private settings. Nor is it to demonize everything SGM and dwell exclusively on the error there. Keep reading. If you can have an open mind and compassion for those who are struggling RIGHT NOW with SGM authoritarianism, I think you’ll eventually see our hearts in this matter.
And I agree with canary, let’s talk! What about that plurality of elders issue?
September 20th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
I am so sorry that this thread for moving on seems to have been hijacked by a troll.
from wisegeek.com
“An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community. Trolls are an unfortunately common occurrence on many communities across the Internet, and there are various steps which can be taken to combat them. If you are currently struggling with an Internet troll, the best thing to do is to walk away, since trolls feed on attention, and they will usually disappear if they are ignored.
The evolution of the Internet troll was a slow process which began as computer users started to more widely adopt the Internet. At first, the term referred merely to someone who was “trolling” for a response or opinion, in the same way that fishing boats cast out large nets to troll for a catch. Over time, trolls grew more aggressive, and the term began to be used specifically to refer to someone irritating or hurtful. In this sense, a troll could be compared to the nasty creatures of Scandinavian mythology which are also known as trolls.
There are a number of different types of trolls. In the most classic case, a troll harasses an Internet community for a few weeks, posting contradictory opinions or statements on bulletin boards in an attempt to stimulate a response.Internet trolls are differentiated from people who genuinely wish to present a different viewpoint by their attitudes and aggressiveness; their goal is not to discuss a situation, but to frustrate the members of a discussion board. They often use fallacious arguments or attack the users of a site when they attempt to defend themselves from the troll’s activities.
In some cases, a troll becomes a recurring figure who is well known by long-term members of a bulletin board. The individuals often tell newcomers to the community to ignore the troll, who may use various tactics to get a rise from newbies. In more serious cases, an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters.
Trolls can be extremely frustrating. Especially when trolls use hate speech and stalkerlike tactics, they can cross the line to being dangerous in addition to being aggravating. If you are the administrator of a website, there are a number of ways to deal with trolls, from IP blocking to reporting them to the authorities if they threaten users of your site. As a site user, the best response to a troll is no response, which will ultimately drive the Internet troll into moving on in search of fresh prey. ”
September 20th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
acme,
I must choose to remain neutral on the troll issue. Probably to my detriment, for me, a person must prove themselves to be a troll.
I check IP addresses to see if a new person with a criticism is someone who has just changed their name, but this is not a fool proof approach.
The thing is, I really want to hear from critics, even if they post in a drive by manner.
If you remember Lawrence, I feel that he made a valid point, and I changed the way I do some things based on his input.
I just don’t want to jump to a conclusion too quickly. Having said all of that, your post is helpful.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Bobbi,
It’s helpful to address people specifically, and I would feel that Moving On is not the thread to address a poll I placed on the site. This thread is the flip side of the “Your Story” thread, and I should probably impose the same rules.
Why don’t you jump over to our latest post, and we can discuss things like my use of humor in our poll.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Jim,
I’m glad you and Carole and PK are the moderators and not me. My goal in posting the troll information was just to remind folks that this is an internet-wide phenomenon, not just SGMRefuge–and that often the way to deal with such trollish behavior is to simply ignore it. Though I guess that by posting this, I wasn’t ignoring it. sigh
I’m glad that there’s room for dissent here, even from drive-by posters, and that you’re gleaning good stuff from them.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
acme,
I think that the way we respond to those with an opposing view reveals a lot about us.
I’m not referring to you, or to anyone in particular. Personally, I need to assume the best until I have facts to prove otherwise.
I understand that my view is naive.
September 20th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Jim and Acme.
I think both your points of view will help to balance out this blog. We want to have discussions with those who don’t agree (Bobbi, where are you?), but we don’t want to be delibertately taunted and distracted by a troll-like blogger, such as Ombud. He made it clear that he spent the day trying to rile people up here, that he enjoyed himself immensely. This kind of blogger could drive others from this site. I think we should use the Titus 3 approach on someone like that. God gives us the gift of discernment for a reason.
I want to add, getting back on track, that having left PDI/SGM was the most merciful, scary escape of my life. Today, I have a walk with the Lord I could never imagaine before. I am pretty free of fear, much bolder (no longer a miss-much-afraid), and have the freedom in Christ to love Him without the burden of sin-digging. If I live by the spirit, I do not want to carry out the desires of the flesh. When I make a mistake, the Holy Spirit is so gentle in his conviction. His heart is to restore me to His way of thinking. Then I love Him all the more. One day, when I stand before the Lord on my own, I won’t be looking around for a leader or my husband to hide behind. I will know my salvation by grace through faith, and not shrink back in fear from the Lord, whom I love.
So, I’m thankful for my days in PDI, and I’m thankful that I’m not there anymore. I wish freedom for all God’s people!
September 20th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
The Troll comment is what I’ve felt from this blog when I first started reading. I assumed by that fact that you’re on the web, that you have some plan for those who’ve wandered away from the church due to feeling disillusioned by christianity; leaders and member troubles alike.
Is there something about this site that is open to anyone else or just ex-SGMs? Which is what I asked in the previous post. I thought that if you were trying to effectively reach people, and that you might want to know how you sound to the outsider. I guess i was mistaken. I guess this blog is just for you and not a searching, questioning, human wondering what this is about. Wondering if going back to church, would I find God. Maybe if you had a church yourselves, you could put a note on the door…trolls not welcome-go straight to hell. Which is where i feel i’m headed anyway. Your site doesn’t give much hope for the lonely, computer iliiterate troll. Posted on the wrong thread, wasn’t anti SGMs enough, don’t have a “real” name, like acme or canary. Don’t serve much of a purpose do i. What does freedom look like anyways? This? Is there a God, is he alive? Help, I don’t see him, i don’t see him……… here. yours trolly, Bobbi
September 20th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Bobbi,
We’re not even 3 months old. I’m still figuring this whole thing out.
Most conversations of a personal nature, such as the questions you just asked, take place offline.
We sent you an email earlier today.
Please send my wife Carole an email here
September 20th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Bobbi, it looks as if you are in some real pain.
Hurting, angry people are welcome here–and at my church (which is no longer SGM mercifully), in my home, and more importantly in God’s arms. The Bible and the church universal (by which I mean all Christians everywhere and in every time) are filled with folks who have found refuge in Him.
I have found that sometimes when my kids are at their “trolliest” that is when they need lovin’ the most: a hug, a story, a snack, an ear, a nap, a lovey. Sometimes I have to wait until they’re ready for comfort.
So, Bobbi, what do you want?
September 20th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Bobbi,
The best place to find God would be by getting on your knees and asking Him to reveal Himself to you, reading a bible, and finding a church. If you earnestly seek Him – you will find Him, that is God’s promise.
You stated:
Is there a God, is he alive? Help, I don’t see him, i don’t see him……… here. yours trolly, Bobbi
That sounds alot like you think knowing God is funny and something to make sport of. My God is not for making sport of. If you want to troll and frustrate people for fun you should go to another site.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Jim, i didn’t get an email and i have an apple without apple e-mail account, so when i click on “here”…it doesn’t give me an address, it just sends me to apple account—closed.
anyways……
I guess i’m becoming “extremely frustrating” and “stalker like”, the ole troll definition. Doubters and sinners should be avoided at all cost. That’s what i was afraid of. I’m not as sweet and likable as the rest of you lady bloggers. If i conform my words to sound more like yours, would you like me better and not call me names.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Bobbi,
I’m sarcastic. I try to lighten things up around here-probably too often.
The fact is, the number of SGM pastors who google their name along with this site is large. I’m sorry, I find it funny.
Please don’t judge this site, or even me, because my sense of humor is a little twisted. This has nothing to do with knowing God. God enjoys humor, and the apostle Paul could be very sarcastic.
I run the site. I made the poll. Blame me, not the good people who post here.
I don’t mind shaking the SGM leadership tree-I think that they need it.
Again, my wife would love to hear from you. She’s a lot nicer than I am
September 20th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Hi Bobbi–
I’m not an SGMer, but am in community with many of them: I teach their kids and we spend countless hours together. I love them dearly, kids and parents alike.
I guess why I love this site, and survivors, is that I see people being brutally honest with their struggles to “work out their salvation.” As a bit of an outsider, I can assure you that the vast, vast majority of the crowd is funny, warm, smart, loving, humble, and very passionate. They are also hurt, stunned, betrayed, sometimes mad, scared to reengage with the church, thankful for God’s mercy and grace.
Above all, for the most part, they really love SGM, but love it too much to allow the continued abuse they hear about. I have been through a very similar experience to most of theirs, through a domineering pastor. My family was shunned, our new church was contacted and warned about us, my kids were hurt.
I would have given much to find a place like this then, because this bunch would have listened to me without judgment, and held out the simple love of God to me.
So….I urge you to continue to ry to contact Carole–she seems gracious and kind to me. I guess one thing I like about refuge is that they never cut you off–if you read back over your posts and their responses, you see them truly desiring to have fellowship with you, and expecting nothing at all in return.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I think that immediately after i came i was called a troll and invader, extremely frustrating. This so seems like judgement to me. I tried to joke about the troll thing and was accused of playing games with God. Believe me this is no game. Judgement is what so many christians give you and here feels the same. You all were warned against me……… do trolls have tails? seems fitting to walk away with my tail between my legs.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Bobbi-
I guess there’s no going back, you’ve been offended. I can tell you that we had a recent troll incident and he was a bit nasty. Maybe that’s why some saw you’re straight on questions as “trolling”.
I guess all we can say is we’re sorry and try and start the conversation over again.
Was there something that you wanted to talk about concerning SGM (I think you said you were not apart of it), or just a question in general about God and pain?
Peace-MM
September 20th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Bobbi,
I didn’t see your 12:14 post.
sgmrefuge@gmail.com
September 20th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Bobbi,
I have never been accused of being sweet and likable.
Ever.
In fact, I am the complete opposite.
I think the others are extending a hand to you, they want to have a nice exchange of ideas.
Hint-hint, they’re pretty nice.
I, on the other hand, watch out. But I want to play, too.
Come back, give it a try.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Sorry, i’ve been sick. I’ll write more when i’m better. thanks for listening.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Crud! I wrote that post (in Moving On) BEFORE I read the rest of what happened in here. (You guys really may want to consider monitoring my posts before you allow me to post here.)
I’m sorry to have been some what inappropriate given the tone of this post.
Now that I am done reading all of it I just want to give Bobbi a great big hug. It’s not easy to hurt. I admire your willingness to be so transparent with us. That took a lot of courage. Thank you for trusting us with your heart so much.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Bobbi-
Thanks for popping up again… I hope you feel better soon.
Maybe when you feel up to it-you can share some more of your thoughts.
Peace-MM
September 20th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I’m struggling with how does a person deal with conflict in a church setting. How do you live with people you sometimes agree with, and sometimes don’t, strongly don’t agree? Where’s the breaking point? How do you know when to move on, when to confront, when to forgive forget about it? How do you find the courage to start again somewhere else, where it all can happen all over again? I’m sure that this being alone thing isn’t it, but again?
September 20th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Bobbi-
) Don’t rush it in new churches or relationships once leaving a bad situation. We’ve all seen it in dating and divorce-what they call the “rebound”. Someone rushes in to another intimate relationship because of the hole or emptiness of the loss they just experienced. This is where just having even 1 good friend who you know loves you, no matter what, is maybe all you need to get thru. It may be your wife, it may be your parents, it may only be The Spirit in you who offers any hope and love-but take your time and learn to breathe again before jumping head long into your next church family.
Great questions-I’ve asked myself these and similar questions many times over the last 10 years involving many friends and 2 different church families.
I don’t know that I can give you a 5 point outline on how to know the right next move when your dealing with conflict in the church-but here’s some of the things I’ve considered in my journey thru conflicts-
1. Have you shared your concerns honestly? Sometimes this can be thru a face to face meeting, maybe writing a note or an email would allow you to choose your words carefully. Making sure you’ve been truthful (in love) is the first step.
2. What was the reaction to your honest concerns? If you’ve been ignored or brushed aside-then it might be time to go. In my case-my wife and I spent hours with our Pastor and his wife. Painfully telling them the ways in which we felt hurt or felt we’d been wronged, only to have them say they’d pray about it and get back to us. They never did . We waited and even made many phone calls to try and resolve our differences-that was over 10 years ago and no follow up to our original concerns. We exhausted all avenues of communication (other leaders/ Pastors) and no one was willing to offer real help. This is when life sucks rotten eggs
3. Choose to forgive-but it will take time to forget. This is where leaning on Jesus became very real to me. I had to choose (it seemed like 10 times a day) to forgive-it was hard, because part of me just wanted to see the whole thing cleared up and be friends (which I couldn’t control or make happen) and another part of me wanted them to understand and hurt as bad as I and my family hurt (revenge-this I had to take before the Lord and ask for self-control)
4. Don’t allow yourself to be shamed into a false peace. What I mean is this-you may lose your temper or say something unkind in your effort to reconcile your differences. By all means-own your part of it and apologize for any honest mistakes or sin, but don’t let this be a means in which the others involved disregard your true concerns. I’ve let myself be shamed by my lack of tact-only to be right up against the wall of depression and despair because nothing has really changed relationally and I’ve not been heard. If the other party can not allow for some of the messiness that happens in relationships (I think scripture calls this bearing with one another) then you may need to put space between yourselves until you know they are willing to hear you.
5. (I guess I was wrong about the 5 point thing
Another thought (if you’re married or have kids) is how is this conflict affecting them? Resolving the conflict may need to be postponed as you tend to the wounds of your spouse and kids-they may be worse off than you realize because of the emotion and intensity you’ve put into just trying to resolve things. It took me a while to see how much our conflicts had affected my family.
Last thought-Don’t ignore your gut. I’ve learned that your emotions are not always right in telling you what is wrong, but they are almost always right in telling you that something is indeed wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I knew in my gut that something was wrong, but I ignored it because I wanted to believe what people told me. I was wrong to do this-I just recently made a decision “against my gut”, so to say, and I sure wish I had listened to it. It would’ve saved me some time and money (not a church related issue ).
Anyway-Bobbi-I pray that God leads you and comforts you thru these difficult decisions. I hope what I’ve written helps and does not sound condescending.
Peace to you-MM
September 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Just popping in to second the don’t ignore your gut comment.
I have never EVER regretted listening to my gut.
There is far too much going on and our conscious mind is just the tip of our iceburg. The gut is all that inner stuff be it spiritual or just our subconscious but it’s real and not to be ignored.
September 20th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Bobbi,
In a true church there should be room for some disagreement and still maintain trust and relationship. We should be able to trust if someone thinks differently that God will show them if their thinking is wrong or harmful. Good leadership shouldn’t pull rank to make you conform to their ideas but they should trust God to make His truth clear to you. If you are in clear unrepentent sin they shouldn’t ignore that because that would not be to your benefit but there should be room for the Holy Spirit to be working in your life and room to think different when it comes to doctrine.
I was without a church for years because I had no trust left and was terribly afraid. I love my new church and I know they will make mistakes or do things I will disagree with from time to time. I think a breaking point for me would be if they do or say things that hinder me from loving and trusting Christ. He is first in my life and I won’t allow anyone, even a church, to distract me away from Him.
I do think the church is God’s idea and can be a real blessing.You are right that trying again can take alot of courage and it is not good to be alone. There are still good churches out there.
I pray that God would led you and give you courage and peace.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
My gut says this site is problematic….do i believe my gut?
Nobody really knows anyone else, their lives, their past, their secrets. How do we really know who’s right? My gut is troubled, very troubled.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Dear Bobbi,
I’m sorry to hear your pain and angst about all this. If you believe this site is problematic, then yes, go with your gut. Be a Berean. You don’t have to be a great Bible scholar to look things up in the Bible for yourself. You don’t have to be a spiritual giant to get closer to God. He loves you and wants you to know truth and have peace.
From my perspective, we are endeavoring to live by grace. Law is cut and dry. You screw up, you get the punishment. You obey the Law, all goes well. Easy. No fuss, no muss. The only problem with Law is that we ARE all doomed! It’s whole purpose was to show us the holiness of God and the unholiness of us!
Grace is a whole different animal. It’s purpose is to restore and maintain constant fellowship with God With grace, each of us have the responsibility to seek the Lord, cultivate our own relationships with Him, study His Word and endeavor to follow His Voice in all things, including matters that the Bible does not address. Messy. Very messy. BUT on the plus side, we are no longer doomed! We have intimacy with God! I believe that God knew full well this new dispensation would present challenges for believers who disagree with one another on what God is saying. But again, the plus side outweighs any negative. These disagreements give us the opportunity to rub shoulders with one another. Occasional conflicts, even sometimes with flying sparks, are to be expected. What do we do? We have to dig deeper. We have to go back to the Lord and seek Him further. We have to make every effort to live in peace with one another. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree and love one another until Christ sorts it all out. And sometimes we have to confront one another, especially if the heart of the issue is our New Covenant rights. Grace does not give us the right to go ahead and sin, whether it be acting as a dictator over people (as some of us here believe of some in SGM), nor does it give us the right to gossip and slander. BUT, it does give us the right to acknowledge our hurt and express anger in an effort to try to work these things out within scriptural limits. All we are looking for here is to rub shoulders with the LEADERS within SGM in a sincere and open discussion about the hurt and anger we have experienced at their hands. They will not do so, neither privately which was our first course of action, nor publically, which we DO believe scripture allows.
But we have another purpose here as well. My experience with PDI happened nearly 20 years ago. Since that time, I have done what so many opposing posters suggest. Gone on with my life, prayed for God to change the leadership, etc. Through those years, 20 YEARS, I have heard rumblings from folks passing in and out of SGM, but I have dutifully minded my own business, even when my extended family or dear friends were involved. Then, awhile back, my sister and her family were very nearly destroyed by this organization and their leadership. She’s the one that showed me the survivors blog. My eyes were opened to the pain and disillusionment of so many, so very many, from all over the nation who were in, or had been in, my shoes. These folks, who are also our brothers and sisters, need to know they are not alone, that what happened to them was wrong. So, when I add my story to more current ones on the blogs, I do NOT see it as gossip and slander. First of all, it’s TRUE, so it is not slander. And I believe their definition of gossip is man-made and works quite nicely to protect them from any disagreement, but is not what God was talking about.
I don’t feel better than anyone, smarter than anyone, more spiritual than anyone. I’m not trying to teach you anything new. I’m just trying to explain my heart, live my life and follow Him. Because you and Canada girl (and others) have a problem with the site and are my sisters in Christ, I will go back and seek the Lord regarding this, not just to defend my position, but to sincerely open my heart to any correction He might bring. I have seen Jim and Carole do this as well. But please know this- most of us here are not posting here due to out-of-control anger or hurt. We have studied, prayed, tried to follow Scriptural mandates regarding our concern with SGM for many, many years. This is a calculated, and we believe Scriptural, decision.
Bobbi, sorry for my long-windedness here. I’m always eager to try to share my heart on this matter because I know it is controversial. And I hear your sincere pain. The Lord hears it too. You are in my prayers.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Hey PK! I did not see your post until I posted my novella! Hope we didn’t overlap too much.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Gracie,
Very sweet and sincere words. Thanks for posting them. You remind us all of why we are really here!
September 20th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Canada Girl,
I beleive the people on this site are true brothers and sisters and I would never say it is wrong for them to be here. I truly beleive their heart is to help the hurting and to give a voice to things that do need changed at SGM. That said, I also beleive my relationship with Christ is my own and I am willing to look at and consider whatever scripture references you post.
I can see by your emails that you feel strongly about this site (and Jim). I know you don’t know me but I am madly in love with Jesus Christ. I am open to looking at any scripture references you want to post regarding why you think it is wrong for me (not Jim) to be here. If you could just post just the references (without any commentary) – I will spend time meditating on them and asking the Lord to guide me in this area.
I do beleive that this site is not slander because slander involves falsehood and I know what I have posted is true and I beleive the best in the others that post here and have no reason to judge their words as false. Because of that any biblical references to slander would not apply as far as I am concerned. I would be happy to meditate on any other references you post and truly ask God to speak to me (again only if you are interested).
Thanks!
September 20th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
eponine,
Thanks for the reference – I will consider it and take time to meditate on it.
Peace,
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Thanks Canary!
You know what’s amazing about our series on polity? It has killed our traffic.
It sort of confirms my assumption-the overwhelming majority of Christians in America couldn’t give a rip.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Jim, maybe most of the typical traffic are those looking for drama: fights, gossip, slander, blog “rubber neckers” if you will.
I wouldn’t worry about the numbers. It is helpful to those considering leaving to have some solid Biblical presentation of the issues at hand – polity is one of them. SGM’s views in particular – how does this influence what is going on inside SGM right now? These are good questions that need to be asked, AND answered.
Unfortunately, most traffic is likely due to those who are more interested in seeing what slander and gossip is going on here than in those who are wanting to find true healing.
Since some of the goals of this blog are to provide support, encourage healing, and foster intimacy with Christ, I think this blog is a success, no matter what the numbers say! Keep up the good work…
September 20th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Gracie,
Thanks for your welcome and your prayers! I appreciate it! I’m still lurking around…
September 20th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I’m glad! I would hate to lose my fellow Les Miserables lover!
September 20th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Jim said: “You know what’s amazing about our series on polity? It has killed our traffic. It sort of confirms my assumption-the overwhelming majority of Christians in America couldn’t give a rip.”
I think you’re probably right, and it’s for that reason that unidentifiable and amalgamous systems like SGM’s continue. People/the flock -including myself- expect changes to happen in quick, painless, pixie dust moments when even in the economy of God’s providence, changes are hard fought a majority of the time.
Concerned said: “Unfortunately, most traffic is likely due to those who are more interested in seeing what slander and gossip is going on here than in those who are wanting to find true healing.”
This is sadly true. And I also think SGM traffic has slowed, as I’ve stated many times that we SGMers don’t even read our own booklists we promote, which is the majority of the content on the POLITY series. Nobody engages in honest dialogue about it, charges of slander and gossip are laid, and when honest research and treatment of issues are done that analyze glaring contradictions between SGM’s own materials (ex. – Harvey’s Polity) and the outside works SGM recommends (ex. – Grudem’s Systematic Theology), the blogosphere becomes so silent you could hear a pin drop. This gives me all the more resolve to finish the series on polity, to eliminate -or respond levelly to- the noise that only slanted, bombastic analyses comes from sites like this (that charge has come from both sides, btw at different times… maybe if I include more Disney characters or DIY color schemes in my posts, folks will read more… and maybe I’ll run my nails down a chalkboard, too).
I’d rather have lower numbers if the rubberneckers and gossip & slander police are showing up in smaller digits. But I think it’s for other reasons, as nationally folks are absorbed with season premieres of Disparate Housewives, America’s Not Talent, Zit-Lancing With the Stars and YouTube offerings of election candidates; and also legitimate distractions, like the status of loved ones in hurricane/bad weather zones, family crises, moving, etc.
In dry seasons you keep working, if God wills it.
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
PK saith: “maybe if I include more Disney characters or DIY color schemes in my posts, folks will read more… and maybe I’ll run my nails down a chalkboard, too”
Getting this info out, in other formats & venues than just this blog, would assure you a wider audience. Example: Jim has posted several video clips snagged from YouTube. This polity series would make a great series of YouTube videos. Tagging them with appropriate phrases, e.g. “CJ Mahaney” “Sovereign Grace Ministries”, would ensure a wide audience among people who would never go out of their way to find this blog. (SGM is using YouTube to great advantage – why not push back?) Such videos could also be posted on GodTube and other video outlets.
Then there’s podcasting, which is even easier to do than video. Just upload your podcasts to several networks (example: http://www.digitalpodcast.com/…..-93-1.html), identify with the right tags, and you’re on your way to a bigger audience.
Just make sure you point the audiences from these ventures back to the appropriate thread on this blog.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
I was going to do a you tube series until I was reminded that I have a great face for radio.
I’ll see if PK is up to it.
Great input, KIS-thanks!
September 20th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Jim and PK,
I think your discussions on church government are vital. I wonder if people didn’t read as much of that because it wasn’t presented more simply (example – break up your post into more paragraphs). When speaking to the masses, simple is best. There was a reason that Jesus spoke in parables. Not all are as educated in theology as you guys, and will stop reading if they can’t understand. Hope you don’t mind my bird’s-eye-view. No offense meant! What you both are doing is, I say again, of vital importance to the Body.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
More thoughts on use of video: Besides simple info-sharing videos, I like the idea of using SGM-focused videos as entertainment – reaching the right brain, not just the left. John Immel makes many of his points through humor and sarcasm, which is effective because SGM takes itself so utterly seriously – yet Mahaney’s on-stage antics and gyrations are just begging to be parodied. (For a while an SGM guy had a hilarious video of Mahaney in which he edited to focus on all the hand-chopping motions – but of course, it’s no longer available.)
Take a look at this very funny YouTube video clip, which mashes together snippets from Pirates of the Caribbean with music (it’s been viewed 1.7 million times!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JImcvtJzIK8
I’m not saying you need to do *exactly* this for SGM, but I think that a lot of what people have written about on the blogs can be recast with clips from Mahaney, Harris, et al artfully edited and put to music. If SGM people (like CG) are so horrified that anyone is actually talking about SGM, the answer is not to shut up, but to inundate the audience with *all kinds of ways* of talking about SGM.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
I completely agree with canary. It is vital that the church understand this stuff in a fundamental way. But to those of us without theological training, well, to be honest my eyes glaze over after a while. So, yes, give me the basics because I want to be informed and understand, again on a fundamental level. thanks for the time and effort it is taking you both to educate us all, Jim and pk.
September 20th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
keepinstep,
YES! I’ve always wondered why somebody hasn’t done this.
SHORT ones would be great!
Kids would see it for sure.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Martin Luther’s way of “telling it to the church” was to nail his 99 thesis to the church door. If he’d had an internet, you can bet he’d have made use of it. His heart was to see the truth taught to God’s people, the freedom in Christ that they were being denied. Because of Luther, the church learned more about the grace of God.
This blog is a way of telling the Body that she is being denied some of her freedoms in Christ. This blog is educating others on truths that have been lost in the church. It is also a way of attempting to hold a group accountable for their actions, when they would not listen behind closed doors at the many “meetings” we all participated in individually. When a great wrong is being perpetrated in the name of God, people must speak up! Parts of the Body are experiencing atrophy because they aren’t allowed to function. This is not the church that will cause Christ to come back!
When people are more concerned about the “gossip and slander” accusation than the lack of love shown towards people who have written their stories here, then something is seriously wrong. SGM has shown a serious lack of love in how it has treated some of its weak and wounded. As John said, we will know Christians by their love for one another. It is love that keeps us going on this blog, love for God’s people who are being enslaved to man’s traditions. As Jim has said for the umpteenth time, if he didn’t love Tim, he wouldn’t bother with any of this. Love motivates him to seek Tim’s repentance, to speak the church about polity, and everything else he has mentioned. I, for one, am glad to see men speaking up for the truth, at the expense of their own time and reputation. If only an ex-SGM pastor would see Jim’s example, and speak up!
We can only hope.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Hi Folks:
All of the suggestions to streamline and simplify are appreciated.
Until I can get some major time to devote to it, things like YouTube are out of the question for me. Just a fact of life, right now. I write, and not much else other than humorous attempts at graphics.
Also, a majority of posts like the POLITY series are quoting chunks from SGM materials and outside sources, so I really can’t fundamentalize any of those excerpts, and it’s hard to address SGM issues unless you use the same SGM language (and this is part of the problem that Jim and I are attempting to address – redifining words, etc). I can try harder, but beloved, there comes a time when we all need to crack the dictionaries and thesauri and Bible handbooks and commentaries open… please don’t take this as PK being snooty and refusing to comply… all I’m saying is that a love for theology has to be cultivated, and it’s hard work. The temptation is to throw in the towel and say “I don’t need theology, I just need Jesus.”
The exact moment you declare a need for the Savior, congratulations… you have just begun a theological discussion. Whether we like it or not, folks, we’re all theologians of varying degrees (and I don’t mean the sheepskin that hangs on the wall that lets you trail your name with a bunch of letters).
I know… it’s big to get your arms around. It seems like a brain drain… but everything, and I mean everything from the smallest molecule all the way up to the sum of the cosmos, has theological implications. God is infinite. God is is the only being deserving of the description awesome. There is no One like Him. And there is nothing like learning about Him. We all need theology so that we can buttress the simple fact of Christ’s sufficiency when we engage in defending our faith and recognizing error.
We could always make a trade off… everyone cracks the books while I learn YouTube? Stop your groans!
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Sorry PK, We weren’t “groaning”, just reminding you of who your audience is.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
PK and Jim,
I am trying not to take offense of your words. I will address only how I take what you wrote so I will make my comments personal – as I read them. It seemed you called me or those who didn’t comment on the church government post of being more concerned about talking about gossip (posts I did write in) or being too lazy. I have read all of Grudem’s systematic thoeology so I don’t consider myself lazy. I love theology. I just don’t find this topic meaningful in my life right now. The reason is because when it comes to SGM I do not think any change in church government would matter. You could have a group of elders in SGM but they would still be controlled by “the family”. The godfather (CJ) would still be sure they tow the line or they too would get the boot. I know of a guy that used to clean the CLC offices an he was given the boot for not beleiving in Calvanism. Really, I just think they are all about control and no change in government would matter. The godfather would still be in control. I also think that you could write your thoughts in an easier reading method. Grudem’s book is a very easy read. I commented more on Canada’s girls issue of gossip because I struggle more with that now that what SGM’s system of government is. I see the side of protecting those that are still in SGM bondage and wanting to help those that got out, and seeing truth but I also see the importance of guarding our tongues and I think all these sites can at times cross a godly boundary. I commented more about that because that is what I am trying to figure out right now – not because I am lazy and don’t care about theology. I think a post on gossip vs responsibility to the truth would be helpful. I find CG’s attitude a real put off (but still listen in seeking what is right) and it doesn’t help me for there to be a “we are 100% right and justified in all we say. I really am trying to figure that out and the way things are posted has not been helpful.
Peace,
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Butterfly,
Here’s what I said:
You know what’s amazing about our series on polity? It has killed our traffic.
It sort of confirms my assumption-the overwhelming majority of Christians in America couldn’t give a rip.
This wasn’t directed at those who participate here. There is no correlation between traffic and comments. Zero. Our traffic comes from readers who never comment.
I was making a general statement about the church in America, not taking a swipe at the good people who interact with us here.
I meant no offense at all. You, and everyone else who participates here are highly valued.
I’m very sorry.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Hi Folks:
My apologies, all the way around, as sometimes my writing doesn’t convey myself properly, and I tend to write like I speak (which isn’t always good)… the “groans” reference was really meant lightheartedly, honest. Please forgive me for any tone that came across as “come on, get on board, folks.” That was not my intention.
But my writing style is my writing style.
Butterfly, I don’t know if I can write in a manner that will be pleasing or understandable to everyone. A few posts back I was careful to note that low traffic could be due to many legitimate things and not just a disinterest in theology or polity for that matter.
I was simply responding to the comments that the Polity series was a little heady and a large chunk to bite off theologically. I made no personal attacks whatsoever, and while my writing may be dry and resort to wit occasionally, I do try to tread carefully. Please don’t take any offense from Jim or I on this. Also, the comments all over this site are “thinking out loud” at times, taking a guess at some things. Are our tongues always guarded? Probably not. We never excuse sin, we repent, but calling out the nonsense that runs rampant within and without SGM is just simply a dirty business. I don’t revel in it, I try to avoid it, but it is inescapable and it can be a very uncomfortable place at times. I’ve always been of the bent that we rejoice in the beauty of God’s grace and peace because we have to see it against the chaos of the enemy and his lies that have been exchanged for the truth.
There is one statement I happen to disagree with you on:
“The reason is because when it comes to SGM I do not think any change in church government would matter. You could have a group of elders in SGM but they would still be controlled by “the family”. The godfather (CJ) would still be sure they tow the line or they too would get the boot. I know of a guy that used to clean the CLC offices an he was given the boot for not beleiving in Calvanism. Really, I just think they are all about control and no change in government would matter. The godfather would still be in control.”
No man is above God. I think a change in polity, and quite frankly any change, at this point, would be profoundly for the better. In one instant, C.J., or as you have dubbed him, “The Godfather,” could be removed from power or have his heart changed. With one flick of his “pinky,” God could demolish SGM, or simply His breath could change lives forever. Or, God’s providence could use an incendiary blogosphere to start it, if He wills it.
At this moment in time, I have faith that change can happen. I don’t condemn those who leave, and I don’t pat myself on the back for staying. What I do is pray, and write, because I am not content to see my beloved SGM vaporize. A top to bottom change in polity would see everyone’s roles in SGM radically changed, and this is just one item in an ocean of issues I pray for reform about. It could happen overnight, or it may take five decades. If I’m 80 and I drop dead preaching from a soapbox to return to the sufficiency of Christ and not the sufficiency of SGM’s Perspectives series, so be it. Until I get I get different marching orders, here I am.
For anyone who is upset at mine and Jim’s observations on traffic, these are just observations and not a backhanded slap, folks. Please accept it as such, because Jim and I enjoy and love everyone’s input and dialogue.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
This was such an outstanding post by Canary, it deserves a rerun (and it was a sobering reminder to me of what we are doing here Canary, so thank you):
“Martin Luther’s way of “telling it to the church” was to nail his 99 thesis to the church door. If he’d had an internet, you can bet he’d have made use of it. His heart was to see the truth taught to God’s people, the freedom in Christ that they were being denied. Because of Luther, the church learned more about the grace of God.
This blog is a way of telling the Body that she is being denied some of her freedoms in Christ. This blog is educating others on truths that have been lost in the church. It is also a way of attempting to hold a group accountable for their actions, when they would not listen behind closed doors at the many “meetings” we all participated in individually. When a great wrong is being perpetrated in the name of God, people must speak up! Parts of the Body are experiencing atrophy because they aren’t allowed to function. This is not the church that will cause Christ to come back!
When people are more concerned about the “gossip and slander” accusation than the lack of love shown towards people who have written their stories here, then something is seriously wrong. SGM has shown a serious lack of love in how it has treated some of its weak and wounded. As John said, we will know Christians by their love for one another. It is love that keeps us going on this blog, love for God’s people who are being enslaved to man’s traditions. As Jim has said for the umpteenth time, if he didn’t love Tim, he wouldn’t bother with any of this. Love motivates him to seek Tim’s repentance, to speak the church about polity, and everything else he has mentioned. I, for one, am glad to see men speaking up for the truth, at the expense of their own time and reputation. If only an ex-SGM pastor would see Jim’s example, and speak up!
We can only hope.”
Wow. WOW. Well said, and it brings about a righteous conviction in me.
Thanks again C!
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
On a lighter note, but in the same vain, let’s not forget the words of the great John Immel (who should spend more time here):
The fact that the web has leveled the playing field for those pastors who choose ill practices in use of that pulpit just means it sucks to be them.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Every time I see that quote by John I do laugh, ranging from chuckle to toothy grin.
Scary.
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
PK and Jim,
PK Quote:
“For anyone who is upset at mine and Jim’s observations on traffic, these are just observations and not a backhanded slap, folks.”
I took it as such – and maybe I am still used to that from SGM – thank you for responding.
___________________________________________________________________
Also: ”I don’t know if I can write in a manner that will be pleasing or understandable to everyone.”
Somone else on the board wrote: “But to those of us without theological training, well, to be honest my eyes glaze over after a while. So, yes, give me the basics because I want to be informed and understand, again on a fundamental level.”
PK – I wasn’t suggesting that you try to please everyone. But there are ways to help people that don’t know what you are talking about. For example, at the very beginning of the post it might have been good to just define what you mean by ”Polity”. Thing like that can help.
__________________________________________________________________________
PK – I also agree God can change things in an instant – he has healed me of things in an instant when asked – and sometimes change has taken years. I just meant that CJ needs a heart change and not just a government change. He is controlling. If he is going to control the theology of the person the empties his trash can – he sure will work his hardest to control any church government. I didn’t mean that no change would be helpful. I am merely pointing out that it would not be a quick fix without there being a change in heart from leadership to make it work.
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Butterfly,
I only have one response.
I’m sorry. Please don’t take my traffic comment personally.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
JIm,
Thank you for the clear apology it is greatly appreciated. I accept it and will not take the comment personally. I appreciate you and PK responding so quickly. Off to work now - I’d rather stay here!
Thanks!
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Just for clarification of my above post about labeling things as “gossip” to suppress people talking about what was going on within the organization the quote was talking about a sexual scandal that occurred in Gothard’s ministry. I am not aware of any similar sexual scandal at SGM. My point was that it appears that SGM has used for quite a while the practice of calling something “gossip” as a way to suppress people talking about and questioning what is going on and what SGM teaches.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Hey,
I’m on the record somewhere admitting I had to google Polity <blush>
I am interested in Church polity because it has obvious consequences in the atmosphere and operations of a church.
But, pk and Jim, you must admit it is, by its nature, dry.
Of course, I know you clothed the issue in Star Wars to attract and keep the attention of people like me that get distracted by shiny objects.
Um…obviously I don’t get offended easily
September 20th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Hi Butterfly:
You said: “PK – I wasn’t suggesting that you try to please everyone. But there are ways to help people that don’t know what you are talking about. For example, at the very beginning of the post it might have been good to just define what you mean by ”Polity”. Thing like that can help. ”
Thanks for the suggestion… it’s a good one, and I’ll add a link to Webster’s 1828 edition definition at the beginning of my posts, as I can’t improve on old school Noah Webster (particularly his quotes at the end of his entries in the 1828 edition).
Have a great day at work!
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Hi DB:
Your passion for shiny objects does not exceed mine.
Long live Star Wars.
…pk
September 20th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Well if you are going to move to “yell at us” can I start the thread with a “THANK YOU FOR CARING” so loud that you can actually hear it from another city.
WHAT…? You mean to tell me the same issues you have with TIM, MANY others have with their SG pastor? I don’t know Canada Girl, and she doesn’t know me, or my situation, but Jim and Carole, thank you….keep it up. I appreciate your care and prayers and you have mine…..
Jim, I didn’t know about polity, but there are many men that have addressed this issue also with their pastors and were beat down with the shepards staff that was supposed to protect them. It is weighty and meaty, but I enjoy the study.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Gracie,
“When you “nothing” someone, you communicate that they don’t matter, their concerns don’t matter, their hurts don’t matter, they don’t even merit your attention. They are unnecessary and unimportant. To nothing someone really does make the recipient feel valueless. The opposite of love. ”
Thanks for the excellant description - you are right on in your words! When that happens it is really hurtful and for some reason cuts deeper when it comes from brothers and sisters in Christ.
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!
BFly
September 20th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
It’s the Borg thing, you know, from Star Trek?
They don’t deal with individuals, they exist to protect the organism and attack/devour the enemy. Jim is the enemy, since he is the perceived leader here on refuge.
Leaders are the organism: kill the leader, kill the organism.
That’s why the Borg don’t notice the minions–it is a waste of time.
And that is why they go ballistic when they perceive one of the Borg leaders is under attack: attack the leader, attack the organism.
September 20th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Steve240,
Homeschooled? Dropout?
You said, “I wonder where she was when they taught you to usually limit paragraphs to 3 to 4 sentences?
Watch it, Bub. I’ll sic my three college students on you – I home schooled them through high school, and they know how to write short paragraphs. Double spaced, even!
I think CG is just long-winded.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Canary:
Watch it, Bub. I’ll sic my three college students on you – I home schooled them through high school, and they know how to write short paragraphs. Double spaced, even!
I think CG is just long-winded.
I am sure there are many home schooled kids that can write well and a number that can write better than me. I was thinking along the lines that maybe she was home schooled by a mother with no college like you hear can be the norm in SGM churches. Having someone home school kids especially all the way through high school if all the have is high school concerns me. I am sure that some mothers could successfully home school their children through high school with only a high school diploma but imagine it would be more the exception vs. the norm.
I just find it harder to read a comment when one doesn’t paragraph. I think you are right about CG just being long winded.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Steve240,
Sorry, I was trying to be humorous about your H. school remark. Sometimes humor doesn’t come accross well on the internet. I don’t have the smiley man to show I’m jesting. I meant no offense! (smiley man and thumbs up!)
Yes, I agree that it would be hard to home school when you haven’t had any college. College broadens your thinking and your experience. Someone who schools through elementary would manage all right, because the curriculum available is so good. High school is another story entirely!
Since this is the “moving on” thread, I will say that, leaving SGM, having to learn to think for myself, learn about faith for myself, has carried over to my kids. It helped in h.schooling, but it also has helped me to teach them about the true Jesus. They don’t just receive what I’m saying because I say it. They have learned to consider and believe based on their own ability to think. My youngest (13) has still not begun her own walk with Jesus. I approach her with the gospel in a way that makes her ponder the truth. I don’t try to force my faith on her. I reason with her.
I could not be doing this with my daughter if I had not first learned to reason with the Lord myself. Is this making sense? One of the biggest weaknesses in church life (especially authoritarian) is when you follow what the leaders say, without question. I had this sort of blind faith, partly out of being taught to, and partly out of fear that if I didn’t follow the leaders, I’d loose God.
Now, I so appreciate my freedom to think for myself. I appreciate that the Lord taught me while my kids were young, that we left SGM before they lost their individuality like I had. I love God’s people, but I was entirely wrong to relinquish my freedom in Christ so I’d fit the SGM mold. Thank the Lord for His merciful intervention!
September 20th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Canary
Steve240,
Sorry, I was trying to be humorous about your H. school remark. Sometimes humor doesn’t come accross well on the internet. I don’t have the smiley man to show I’m jesting. I meant no offense! (smiley man and thumbs up!)
I wasn’t sure if you were serious or not. I can come across the same way. I do realize it isn’t correct to stereotype
It is someonething how one many times has to learn to think again when they leave SGM. For the most part thinking and questioning weren’t promoted. Here is a story that I quoted on my blog about the need to think:
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007…..-yourself/
September 20th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
DB
RT, I simply cannot resist the Borg analogy. =/\= Here I wax tedious because I’m a shameless nerd which naturally makes me a die hard trekker. Now, the crew of the Enterprise coud beam into the Borg ship and the Borg wouldn’t acknowledge them. No, they wanted Lacutus (Piccard,) because they believed they could defeat the Federation if they took out one of its leaders.
With Borg didn’t all people they went after assimilate etc? The difference between Borg and SGM is that those that don’t assimilate are often shown the door, i.e. “asked” to leave etc.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
This is a Trekker response, non trekkers might want to skip this post; you have been warned. =/\=
No, at least with the Borg, you weren’t sent out an airlock or anything like that. Of course, toward the end of the series, Hugh’s ability to function as an individual affected the social order of the Borg collective and Data’s evil brother, Lor, took advantage of their leaderless state, but, I believe even those Borg left on their own volition and the Borg Queen would rather have them back into the collective.
There at least the Borg Queen is a tad better than CJ who would, I fear, allow his minions to send dismembered drones like me straight out the air lock if I didn’t properly assimilate into the SGM collective. =/\=
September 20th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
DB,
Okay, from a fellow Trekker (boy, is my face red): Having Hugh find individuality is one of the most touching episodes of Generations, probably because I related to him so much. It was so beautiful to see him become aware of his individuality, like a light bulb coming on in slow motion. That’s what happened to me when I left SGM.
Lor taking advantage of the ex-borg because of their leaderless state – that’s why we need to cling so hard to Jesus as we go through the process of learning about our freedom in Christ. He is the head of the church. He will protect us from the evil one, and guide us to the part of the Body He thinks is best for us.
Hee-hee, that was fun.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Trekkies and Star Warsies. What’s this place come to?
Now Braveheart. That’s a movie.
September 20th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Ok-I do like your analogies…
September 20th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Jim,
“Braveheart” it is. I’m painting myself blue and shouting “Freedom!”. (I wonder what that blue stuff was that they painted on their faces?) And I could say a few things about the scene where you find out what Scottsmen really wear under their kilts, but I’ll pass.
However, I have to tell you that the Borg episodes really scared the heck out of me. There is something terrifying about the thought of loosing your identity to the “collective”. Been there, done that, won’t wear the T-shirt anymore!
January 16th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
how is this web site honoring to God?
is this not slanderous gossip?
those who are sinless should throw the first stone.
people put your stones down.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Yo,
All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to believe that discussing the issues at hand is slander and gossip.
…um, er, unless you think 3yo girls should be molested and it’s a *good* thing to cover it up. Go ahead, Yo, put your stone down like a good little lamb.
Do you think it’s gossip for me to share my story? Do you know what happened to me? Musicman? Stunned?
Go ahead and put down your stone, I wouldn’t want you to get all messy.
Drink your kool aid like a good little lamb.
Musicman, Stunned, and I experienced abuse at the hands of the same SGM church, what about the others? What about the pattern of abuse, the same modus operendi….oh, yes, that’s gossip and slandar…..we’re supposed to put down our stones like good little lambs?
Go ahead, Yo, go out and get some mint jelly because SGM is serving up lamb.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
yo
You give the typical SGM loyal (kool-aid drinker) response of “gossip and slander.”
You have been taught SGM broad almost all encompassing definition for so long without questioning it is like 2nd nature to you.
SGM’ teaching on gossip and slander have served them well. It has allowed the leadership to do what what they want to do without any form of accountability or questioning. It has worked well. All they have to do is declare questioning is gossip or slander and regular members of fearful of doing that. All that have to do is declare discussing why so and so left quickly or was “asked to leave” as gossip and you suppress people from talking about it and thus leadership can do whatever they want without their actions being scrutinized.
I doubt you can think logically to see how well SGM’s teaching on gossip and slander can keep general members in the dark. Maybe you should try and think on it.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Yo-gurt,
I’ve addressed slander and gossip many times on this site. Your question has been answered.
Perhaps a more original thought might be worth more interaction, but the slander and gossip stone has been thrown and caught so many times, it no longer deserves a reasonable response.
I’d encourage you to read more, and to do some deep thinking.
I host this site. If you can find a new stone to throw, please direct it towards me.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
So Yogurt, Sarah and all y’all,
What did you talk about at Care Group last night…hmmm???
January 16th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Jim,
Since I just found this blog a few days ago, could you direct me to a thread about what you said about gossip and slander? This is for my own peace of mind.
You see, I was accused of gossip at the final meeting at our church. Another woman had emailed me about why she had not seen us in a while. I emailed back and spoke very sparsely with few details. She asked for more and so I gave her more, thinking she was doing so out of concern for my pain. Evidently, she or her husband told an elder or his wife about the emails, because the elder’s wife jumped to her feet in the meeting and accused me of gossip.
It upsets me to see some angry voices on other threads. I want to find refuge here. Not to slander or malign anyone, but to find comfort and healing. I have been through substantial struggles with trusting God over the last few months–like nothing I have ever been through before and hope that God will be using prayers and words of others for restoration.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
INC
The two I can find the quickest are here and here.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
INC-the only safe threads on this blog are “your story” and “moving on”.
I have a zero tolerance policy for criticism on those two threads. They are linked at the top of the home page.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
INC
As I recently said on this thread, calling things “gossip” or slander” is a usual tactic SGM uses.
Sorry to hear about your recent experience when you left SGM.
If you haven’t also looked at SGM Survivors, you might find some comfort there.
Cindy just posted a very insightful comment here:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....ment-14317
This is her final summary:
Note, the most common characteristics of spiritual abuse are:
Authoritarian Systems and leaders over-emphasize authority
Image Conscious Maintains high standards to validate specialness to God
Suppresses Criticism No questioning of doctrine or leadership is permitted
Perfectionistic Blessings come through performance and noncompliance is punished.
Unbalanced Abusive religions must distinguish themselves from all other religions so they can claim to be distinctive and therefore special to God
I hope this helps. From what I have seen, SGM uses the guise of calling something “gossip” and “slander” as a way of suppressing criticism. This fear also allows them to do what they want without people knowing and being able to question their actions.
It has served them well.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Thank you, Jim, I will read them. Thank you also for the clarification on the safe threads.
Steve, thank you. That comment of Cindy’s resonates.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Here’s one of the many things i just don’t get. IF you think this site is gossip or slander, WHY are you reading it?
January 16th, 2009 at 7:26 pm
New poster here.
This is so true. When we had questions, no one would answer them. When we had an issue with someone within the church or with doctrine, we were told it was gossip and slander if we discussed them with anyone. Care Group Leaders held the party line. I have since had a conversation with a CGL in which it was suggested that maybe there was some immaturity and growing in the Lord that had needed to be done back when we had our issues.
An open forum exists now, whether biblical or not biblical. To me, this is one way God is shouting from the housetops what has been whispered in the shadows for years. It’s a healthy thing. A way for the leadership to grow if they will only read through these stories with an open mind and recognize that the posts that are a bit iffy are being written by people who have been scarred by them. The ownership of the problem is theirs.
Anything remotely resembling “gossip or slander” that you see on here could also be interpreted as pain and agony being expressed among friends. I think this all should have been dealt with long ago within the confines of the church. Since it wasn’t, I am glad there is a place for the wounded to gather, however imperfect it may turn out to be while the crippled and lame are here posting. The job of those still in SGM should be to rescue these lost lambs and restore them with the comfort of the Holy Spirit, not scold them with words of admonition. That’s what landed them here in the first place.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Okay. Just figured out the edit feature. Nice.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Humbly-welcome!
Very well said…
January 16th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
yes, well said, well said! Thank you for comiing and sharing your thoughts with us. I hope the Lord brings each of us the comfort and clarity we need as we recover from our SGM experiences.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Jim, Steve and humbly,
I read your comments and they were very helpful in giving me more understanding..
Going through the verses was really a clean breeze. The checklist from Cindy kind of pulls off the mask. Finally, humbly, your words, “Anything remotely resembling “gossip or slander” that you see on here could also be interpreted as pain and agony being expressed among friends,” speaks directly to the accusation made.
Thank you, again.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
sorry it took a while to get back,
but hey, come on guys, you jumped down my throat when i asked a question. wheres the love?
oh, and im not a member of an SGM church, ok, i am a christian who believes God and Jesus Christ should be honored in everything we do.
why do you get so defensive?
January 17th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Yo-gurt,
Here’s your original post-
how is this web site honoring to God?
is this not slanderous gossip?
those who are sinless should throw the first stone.
people put your stones down.
What type of response did you expect? “is this not slanderous gossip” was clearly a rhetorical question.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
And yo-gurt, you came on here throwing stones while telling me to put mine down. Again, do you think you made a statement that I haven’t heard 100 times and haven’t already addressed?
You jumped in the game, yo. Next time, don’t forget your helmet.
January 17th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
look these are my convictions.
-that this is wrong.
all i will do is pray that god either changes my heart or yours.
(honestly preferably yours
January 17th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Oooooh yo!
You’re jumping in with the big boys now… I don’t know if you’re up for it….
January 17th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
and i was asking to be proven wrong the entire time… not to get “beat-up”
January 17th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Yo-I’m sorry that you felt beat up. If I had a thin skin, I might have felt beat up. Others here with softer hearts may well have felt beat up.
I’ve “proven you wrong” many times on this blog. Do you honestly think that I’m going to answer the same question (or accusation) over and over again?
Life’s too short-do your own homework.
As I said, next time wear a helmet. If you’re going to throw a rock at someone, make sure that you’re a very good catch.
Want to start over? My name is Jim. What’s yours?
January 17th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
edited because… maybe… slowly… I’m maturing.
Then again, at my age, what are the chances of that finally happening?
January 17th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Yo,
As your head and all it contains is resting beneath the sand, do you worry about children being abused?
Does the spectre of a little girl being molested stay completely out of your consciousness?
Do you think the perfect little ordered world of your idealism in your imagination actually *exist* because that’s all you allow yourself to visualise?
Are you aware of the fact there are sins of *ommision* as well as sins of *commission*?!
I, personally, do not want to stand before my God to explained why I ignored a child’s suffering so I could eat tea and crimpets with my pastor.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
StunnIed,
Hee-hee. Some of us had to “edit” our thoughts as well, by not posting! Yogurt’s attitude was upsetting to say the least but, then again, I am lactose intolerant…
Hey,Yo? Have you read ANY of the stories on this blog? Like Jim said, do your homework. Then do some thinking. THEN maybe you will have something constructive to post.
IF you come here unprepared and uncaring of others’ feelings, expect to get slammed. We will protect the sheep who post here with vigilence. They’ve been through enough pain without your idiot remarks adding to it (okay Stunned, I should have edited that thought – Jim, feel free).
January 17th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
INC, you said: It upsets me to see some angry voices on other threads. I want to find refuge here. Not to slander or malign anyone, but to find comfort and healing.
Jim, I just wanted to tell you that I have ALWAYS felt this blog was such a place. You can’t prevent ALL the angry voices, but you and Carole have been so faithful to provide a place that does feel safe, and your wisdom and discernment is evident here. I’m not blowing your horn for you – I know this is a God-thing because people in the flesh (and there are lots of them) are just too darn foolish and self-absorbed to think of others before themselves.
Time and again you two have provided that oversight, without trying to prove yourselves, some agenda, etc. This blog just have a very sweet spirit about it, and I wanted to tell you guys that and say thank you, for whatever you may be doing on your part, to allow God to work through this blog the way He does. Love you guys!
January 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
INC, I hope you stick around. AS I just said, Jim and Carole have your back, as do others. We all try to encourage grace here, but never compromise the truth in doing so. I hope you feel welcomed, and can find this a place where you can begin to stretch your wings, heal, while growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ…it’s a wonderful thing to be set free.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Thank you, Juli.
January 17th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Juli,
Thank you for your sweet, kind words of encouragement!
… And I love you, too!
January 18th, 2009 at 12:22 am
Hi Yo-gurt.
Welcome!
So…that is an intriguing name. Where did it come from?
Let’s apply logic: you tell the crowd here to not throw stones, since none of us are sinless.
So we are not to criticize fellow believers, right, unless we are sinless?
Is this not what you are doing–criticizing fellow believers? So, you are sinless?
Remember those syllogisms–here is yours:
Only the sinless can name sin in others’ lives.
No-one is sinless.
Therefore no-one can name sin in others’ lives.
Is this not true?
Second, we are commanded in scripture to stand for justice and truth. Do you agree? If so, do you not have concern for a small child who was raped? She (and all those little kids in the two year old room, I am still worried about them) does not deserve a public apology? SGM does not deserve to be forced to learn how to deal with these issues properly, in order to protect the smallest among us?
Thanks for the response!
January 18th, 2009 at 12:26 am
RT-Yo-gurt wont be back. He said F you-the entire word, to a lady here.
I left it up for an hour, so all could behold his intelligence, and then banned him.
He’s a care group leaders son, and a fine example of manhood. I’ll be sending dad an email.
January 19th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
What a shame, but time and time again it appears the critics of this blog end up showing their true colors or leaving but never providing an adequate defense for the actions exposed here (because there IS no defense for them). Not that saying the f word means you’re evil. But up against the gentle urging to repentance of Esther’s letter and others, it stands starkly illumined as error.
January 20th, 2009 at 1:13 am
Jim,
Thanks for defending whichever lady yogurt swore at. Boy, it is so hard to believe what some will come on here and say. A CG leader’s son? Using that language? Unbelievable…
January 20th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
To All,
It’s obvious to everyone who have read imputes to this website that we are all sinners. Though all of us here at Sovereign Grace love the Lord and delight in His word, we have proven to those of you who are not part of Sovereign Grace Ministries that we too are in need of a Savior. From our Leadership to our Membership, we are imperfect and in desperate need of God’s mercy. Only through the blood that our Savior, Jesus Christ, shed on the cross are we united to a Holy God and are able to claim salvation and adoption. We realize we have nothing to offer God except the life of Jesus flowing through our broken lives.
Please forgive us and pray for God’s grace and healing here at Sovereign Grace as we walk through this difficult time. With humility, we strive for one resolution… For His glory, we pray for complete unity within the faith so the world may know that God the Father has sent Jesus, His only begotten Son, to give salvation to those who believe. May His name be honored.
January 20th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Still Hopeful you are apparently “still hopeful” that change will happen within SGM.
I do question if the leadership within SGM has the “with humility, we strive for one resolution.” Hopefully SGM leadership has that sense. I am sure they feel they are humble but many of their actions and their responses to their actions, e.g. what was done to “Esther” shows little of that. SGM leadership has been quite silent on what they did to Jim (the owner of this blog).
Of course with God all things are possible so there is still hope. Unfortunately, their actions so far, don’t bode well for the SGM humbly doing some soul searching, repenting, and even seeking reconciliation.
January 21st, 2009 at 12:27 am
I am not a member of any SGM churches. How dare these pastors, elders, “care” group leaders do this! This is not the faith of the Scriptures. I will never join such a church and I thank all of you for warning me. I heartily recommend Charles Colson’s The Faith. He describes true faith, not some ridiculous interpretation that enslaves the people and causes an idiotic worshipping of some men who couldn’t make it in society so they pretend they are leaders to a group of folks who, through their Christian charity, accept and believe them. May God give all of you His peace.
January 21st, 2009 at 4:41 am
Still Hopeful-
What is God telling you to do with all that you read on this website?
Peace-mm
January 21st, 2009 at 7:01 am
If I were to guess, I’d say Yo cussed me out because, after all, I got his active cultures in an uproar.
And, Still Hopeful, my prayers are alongside yours.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:35 am
DB…
I was hoping you would see it before Jim took it down… I was looking forward to your response! LOL!!
January 21st, 2009 at 7:37 am
DB,
I only left his comment up for an hour to show what he’s made of. I didn’t want you to see it, but not because I was “protecting” you.
I was protecting him.
January 21st, 2009 at 7:40 am
Ahhhh DB… see the difference between my dear husband and myself? He is a much better person than I am!
January 21st, 2009 at 7:56 am
The poor kid didn’t stand a chance.
And for the record, I don’t know a better person than Carole.
What was that, babe?
Some residual SGM-style humility
January 21st, 2009 at 7:59 am
I am off to school but couldn’t go without letting you know that it was likely for the good that I was denied the opportunity to respond.
Although I prefer colorful prose to blunt cussing.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
January 21st, 2009 at 8:11 am
Still Hopeful, thank you for asking our forgiveness. It meant a lot to me. A WHOLE lot. The Lord is near the brokenhearted. I pray that His closeness to those who are broken in Chesapeake will bring them great joy and hope.
January 21st, 2009 at 10:10 am
still hopeful, welcome. sgm has been on my mind alot lately. i DO hope God is glorified and His people loved through all this. my best to you.
stunned
January 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Since I’m in the concerned thread, how is PK? I’ve been worried about him.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:27 am
I’m a 20 or so year SGMer and couldn’t be more grateful for each of the 3 churches I’ve been in and the ministry as a whole. I’m in San Diego presently. BTW, the stuff I’ve read on this sight about our recent change in staff couldn’t be more poorly represented. Our team sought Steve out, not the other way around, additional input was asked for from people who knew each of the pastors, and the Home Group leaders were brought in about 6 months before the final decision was made. AND, the final decision was the teams (our 3 pastors on staff), NOT Steve’s. And that’s the way it goes in most of these situations – no matter what the conspiracy theorists might say ;>)
Anywhoo, all this should be as simple as realizing – the church (universal) is made up of sinners – membership and leaders alike. No matter where you go, you’re going to find things to disagree about with those in your sphere, or run up against mistakes made by those in leadership, etc. . . I understand if you don’t agree with SGM’s polity, but I don’t think you should be hatin’ on them for that – it wasn’t like they pulled a bait and switch on you – if you want a congregational model, go to a congregational church – POOF, no need for all this crazy blogging which only serves to degrade the gospel in the eyes of the world.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Benjie,
I don’t live out west and I don’t know Steve Shank. It would be good for you to share your version of the San Diego story on the Shank thread. I’m asking for details.
The post that Carole referenced in “uh-oh, Steve Shank is here”
said the following-
“Shank then said that he was actually bringing “good tidings”. He announced that an “evaluation process” had taken place over the last year and a half, where he flew into San Diego for weekday meetings that “99% of you were not aware of”. Shank said that the local pastors had the primary role in this evaluation, and his role was secondary. He said that this evaluation process revealed that Lauterbach had a more appropriate “gifting” for the associate pastor role while Turbedsky had a “gifting” suited for senior pastor. Shank commended Lauterbach on his humility and announced that Lauterbach would be training Turbedsky in preaching. Shank stated that Charles Spurgeon was a hero to him, but unfortunately Spurgeon’s church only lasted one generation. Shank said that actions like this “transition” at our church would help SGM last beyond the original generation.”
Is that a poor representation? It sort of sounds like what you’re saying…
February 5th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Yes, the email is pretty much right on. I think what prompted my posting was all the replies to that information and the way people seemed to take it and run off in negative directions that were really very erroneous and unrepresentative of how the church as a whole (or I should say those I’m aware of) are feeling about the change.
I think errors of this kind are probably typical of the human experience when we interject our opinions (in this case opinions motivated by emotion from past negative experiences) on situations we’re not involved with – why I think it’s best to refrain from too much comment on situations one is not directly involved with. But perhaps that’s what blogging is largely about?
I’m not much of a blogger and realize this probably isn’t the right place to write any of this, AND I’m probably mixing things from this site and the SGMsurvivors site, so sorry if that’s confusing at all – just don’t have a lot of extra time to dig back and reference exact posts, etc. . . so this seemed like a good page to place a general positive SGM post.
also, kind of rushed and putting out thoughts more quickly than I probably should, so if I wrote some nonsensical stuff, I’ll come back and laugh at it (and any sharp-witted replies) later.
February 5th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Benjie,
Your account is appreciated.
Although laced with condescension and sweeping statements. i.e. “Anywho….the church is made up of sinners…” When you sweep away what is done by leaders that leaves peoples lives torn apart with the broom of “well we are all sinners and you can’t agree with everybody” it comes across as very dismissive. I truly want to know how this unfolded.
Is Lauterbach the older pastor that was pastor of another non-SGM congregation before going to the pastor’s college? I have some additional thoughts to share if I am recalling the right guy.
February 5th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Benji,
Welcome to the refuge! We’re always glad to have active SGMers posting and reading here.
My only question to you is with regard to your comment: no need for all this crazy blogging which only serves to degrade the gospel in the eyes of the world
Could you be more specific as to how, from your perspective, this blog is degrading the gospel?
Thanks..Juli
February 5th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
SC,
Here’s an interview with Mark Lauterbach:
http://totellyouthetruth.wordp.....auterbach/
February 5th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
This is good:
“There is no reason to fear that we lose something if we are focused on the cross and the resurrection. I am careful with theology that makes people feel burdened and heavy (that seems to be a side effect of Calvinism) and look for God-glorifying joy in a great salvation that brings us to God.”
But it doesn’t seem to ever happen in SG churches. I find it encouraging that he recognizes this as a side effect of Calvinism, though. That gives me hope.
This is a little confusing:
We have three adult children, all graced by the Lord with faith.
Q7. What are some of the challenges you face as a Pastor in California?
Same as everywhere – sin is real, Satan blinds the unbelievers to Jesus, sanctification is partial, and I am my own biggest problem.
Okay, as Reformed folks, SGers believe God elects certain folks to walk in faith, but Satan blinds the unbelievers to Jesus? You can’t have it both ways. Either God chooses not to save everyone, only the elect, or Satan blinds people but God intends for them all to be saved. Since this isn’t a forum about Reformed doctrine, I’ll stop there. But I’d like some day for someone to explain the whole doctrine of election thing to me. It doesn’t fit into my head along with “Satan blinds unbelievers.”
I could go on for HOURS about sanctification. You better restrain me. It won’t be pretty. I disbelieve in progressive sanctification altogether. It smacks of Mormonism and leads to elitism no matter how you slice it (mouth now zipping).
Here’s the issue as I see it (and it’s many-fold, so I’m generalizing). The very act of Election is not a grace-centered act. A logical byproduct of ultra-Reformed church doctrine, then, alongside the type of authoritarian polity structure in SGM is hardheartedness and elitism. We are the Elect. We are becoming progressively sanctified. (Unspoken: You’re not. We can tell because you don’t dress like us and you don’t use the same phrases and you don’t discipline your children the same way.)
What I see when I try to find the big picture is that we are all just lovers of God who struggle with sin. We’re at various stages of our walks of faith. Some are newer in different areas, some will never grow much beyond where they started, and others, like Mother Theresa, will quietly and inconspicuously serve their God with abandon and be overlooked repeatedly. Jesus told a parable about all this. The agreed upon pay is the same no matter how long you worked in the field (and I’d add no matter how good you are at your job).
Whenever I read what SG pastors have written or listen to a sermon like the one in the Gilbert church, I pray for these men. I realize we’re all fragile, flawed human beings, but some of us have been raised to positions of oversight and they need our prayers more than ever. I can’t force feed an entire denomination my personal doctrine. I can share my opinions about how their doctrinal stance can cause woundedness and their response will be “but it’s the Gospel!” I think if we focus on our own stench for too many hours of each day, though, the Gospel’s perfect work is not done in us. At some point, we have to move past focusing on our sin, laying it aside as Jesus said to do, and reaching out to the lost and hurting world. You don’t have to go far. They’re everywhere. And it’s our job. The last thing He said to do — go to the ends of the earth and make disciples!
I’m hopeful. If Mark Lauterbach is ready to “look for God-glorifying joy in a great salvation that brings us to God,” maybe things really can change.
Does it bother anyone else, though, that his blog is called a Gospel-Driven Life rather than a God-Driven Life? I’ve heard language of this type over and over. Back in the early days, we “gloried only in the cross and made our boast in the Lord Jesus Christ, crucified to ransom us.” As we sang, we felt that holy gratitude for what Jesus had done for us. But these “worship services” somehow degraded into “unworthiness sessions” somewhere along the line. There was a subtle shift.
I’ve undoubtedly posted all this in the wrong section. Sorry about that… Just been a bit pensive this afternoon…
February 5th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Alright – appntmnt got postponed, so time for one more. . . .
Singing Cook – you are recalling the right guy. Your other comments are helpful – it was said in a sweeping and dismissive way. I only had in mind issues of preference, or perhaps what the world would consider smaller sins such as an individual being rude, inconsiderate or prideful in a particular conversation, etc. . . (as opposed to something like verbal or sexual abuse issues). So, that was insensitive of me and I apologize - unfortunately it’s not surprising to me, nor would it be to my wife. I really stink at the “in love” part of ’speaking the truth in love’ and hope to improve by God’s grace.
However poorly said, the heart of what I said is true. Forgiveness is required of every believer – whether the sin against us is what the world would see as large or small (selfishness vs. sexual abuse, manipulation, fill in the blank). It’s all the same in God’s eyes, and we’re instructed to forgive. (part of my definition of forgiveness would include not disparaging a person or an organization in a public forum – whether it be SGM, baptist, presbyterian, catholic, independent, etc. . . I also apply this in my Business dealings – this ISNT just about me being a happy SGMer and being hurt that people don’t like xy&z about something that I do like).
How? or Why? (referring to forgiveness) Because God forgives us through Christ. And of what? Of not always being his best friend, or not doing things just the way He would like?
No, we all know the answer – He forgives us of being Liars, Idolaters, Audulterers, Lovers of Self, Thieves, Slanderers, Murderers, those who struck and spat on him as he went to his death, the ones who nailed his hands and feet to the cross- the list describes all of us (the human race).
Thank you Lord.
This truth is the only true comfort and power to heal that you can offer to those hurting or sinned against – it’s my opinion that they don’t need a forum to talk about how bad their hurt was and to hash it over with a bunch of other people who weren’t involved (unless those ‘others’ are pointing them back to the power of God’s forgiveness).
I write all of this in a very “my general conviction” sort of way – not with any timeframe expectations attached. In other words, I’m not saying a person has something wrong with them if they can’t forgive the killer of their child the next day, or something like that, so please assume all “reasonableness” as you read.
In addition, I should add that I would not be surprised if I struggled “practicing what I preached” given a difficult enough challenge in my own life . . .
February 5th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Juli – glad to try and clarify for you:
SGM and it’s churches preach the gospel for the saving of souls – same as so many other churches and denominations.
I haven’t been involved directly, but I’m sure it’s true that things in certain churches have been handled poorly, sin involved, etc. . . same as has been the case in many churches and throughout all denominations – and this is the way it will be until Christ returns.
However, I would also claim it as a fact that people are being saved, and people are being helped and are growing in godliness in these churches and in the movement as a whole – just as they are in other churches and denominations. I find it highly reasonable to say that many more people are being helped than have been hurt – just as they are in most other churches and denominations, and I want to say that here cause it’s not being said.
So, all this negativity is focused on leading people not to go – people that might end up being helped, or saved, and that is not good. Not good to keep them out of any gospel proclaiming church.
And I’m not just applying this to SGM – I would not condone this being done to any gospel proclaiming denomination, church movement, etc. . . I would encorage an emphasis on a correct understanding of forgiveness as detailed in my previous post.
An emphasis on biblical forgiveness would actually be helpful and an uplifting of the Gospel before the eyes of the world. Showing them – ‘even though this bad stuff happened, I’ve been able to forgive because of what God’s forgiven me of’ or the same effect happening because others are encouraging that in each other on the site.
Instead, all the non-believer will see is: “man, those Christians are at each other’s throats – worse than at my work” or something similar. This is the only result I’ve witnessed in unbelieving friends from this sort of “airing of dirty laundry” to use a phrase of my mom’s.
hopefully that helps clarify.
February 5th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Despite the name Refuge, I think this site has also become a vehicle by which people can expose the unfruitful works of darkness that they have experienced or encountered within SGM, Benjie. I think most people on here long to not only forgive (we’re required to do that anyway) but to find a way to warn people of error in doctrine and “sheep wounding.” It’s sometimes done imperfectly, but we all walk in imperfection. You want us to extend grace and forgiveness to these men who have caused harm, and we do need to do that. But we can’t let it go on without warning others.
February 5th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
Benjie first off welcome!
“Instead, all the non-believer will see is: “man, those Christians are at each other’s throats – worse than at my work” or something similar. This is the only result I’ve witnessed in unbelieving friends from this sort of “airing of dirty laundry” to use a phrase of my mom’s.”
I think you make a very interesting statement. Right now, God has given us Christians a great opportunity to show non-believers what God’s love looks like, but it has to be on both ends. Speaking personally I have no hard feelings towards my leaders or anyone at my former church. I love them all dearly and am praying for them. My former church hasn’t had anything horrible happen, but it has a lot of the same underlying themes that have been displayed in every single person’s story on refuge. If the leaders of SGM were willing to listen to their congregations, willing to actually act on the observations, and be held accountable to their congregation (not just the other pastors) then this site wouldn’t be here.
I do believe that SGM has done some good things and has affected people’s lives. I know that not everything that I learned was horrible. As far as helping people walk on in godliness, I would have to disagree with you there. I grew up in my former church ( I am 20 years old) I’ve stayed friends with the same people and have watched them transform as the years have gone on. Evaluating my own life I was shocked at the change I had gone through. I think that many individuals in SGM have good intentions when it comes to following godliness, but those good intentions have become legalistic attitudes. It is turning the sheep into Pharisees (I was one) and it is holding back God’s love from being displayed.
Should we (all Christians) be setting a better example to the non-believers? Of course, we can always work on this. SGM leadership has a wonderful opportunity to truly show the world and other believers what true humility looks like. They have the opportunity to admit that they don’t have all the answers and that there has been many situations that were not handled in a godly way. Pride comes before the fall and SGM leadership has built their foundation on pride the question is will they willingly walk down from their mountain top or will they have to fall flat on their face.
February 5th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Benjie, thanks for your response and clarifying. I agree that much teaching, edification, and such does happen in SGM churches. I would not classify my entire time there as a “waste” or hurtful, for certain.
Yet the fact remains, as you said, that some ARE hurt. By addressing these individuals, we aren’t seeking to distract from the other work going on in SGM or disregard EVERYTHING, but wouldn’t you think it is fair to say that if we were to do that, then SGM would be also at fault for simply focusing on what they chose to, and not address the hurts expressed here?
Both (SGM leadership, and the blogs) should seek to uphold truth, address the hurts, and uphold the good. When your ministry is to help set captives free, you don’t spend your energies talking about the finer points.
I used to work in a battered women’s shelter in college. These women loved their husbands who were beating them severely. As counselors, we didn’t focus on the wonderful things about their husbands that would encourage them to stay, even if there were good things, which I am sure there were. They were in bondage, and needed to break free. It was a crisis situation. You address the crisis at hand, THEN you address other things.
I know that is a bad analogy but spiritual abuse and physical abuse have some similarities, as do their victims, and the recovery process is also similar. I think if you ask those who have been out of SGM for some time if they had any good memories or were thankful for SGM, they would likely say yes. But that is AFTER they dealt with issues that hurt them, after forgiveness, etc.
It is a process, and you don’t go fast. TO say that we should discuss the positives of SGM on a blog that is filled with hurting people is absolutely premature, and some would say, ridiculous. Again, no one is saying SGM is rotten to the core (well, some would who are still very much in pain, but I’m not in that kind of pain anymore and I can already see the blessings that I could not a year ago)
I hope this makes sense. I know there are MANY who will never be affected by the things I have in SGM, or what others have..in my own former church, I could go through the directory and tell you: safe, not safe, safe…simply because you can SEE when someone is in bondage, especially if you yourself have been delivered from that same bondage, as I have. Do I pick up the directory and call those I fear are in bondage? No. I’m praying that their eyes are opened the same way mine were: by the Spirit of God working. And believe me, He’s working.
February 5th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Bethany, good to “see” you here! How have you been?
February 5th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Juli,
I have been doing well thanks for asking
Been trying to move forward and seeking God out on where He wants to direct my life now and if He is still calling me to the same thing.
February 6th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Oh, I agree that SGM has done some good things, that almost makes the bad worse.
I’ll just go ahead and use my favorite tootsie rool and the cat box analogy. If you find something that looks like a tootsie roll in the cat box, you won’t take your chances because you know your chances of actually eating a tootsie roll are minimal and the consequences for being wrong all too apparent.
Now, if you were to take what you thought was a tootsie roll in the candy dish but it was actually visited by the cat, well, you wouldn’t be expecting something so vile in the candy dish with all the other tasty morsels.
Sort of think of the pool scene in Caddy Shack.
Similarly, if SGM was the spiritual equivilent of the cat box, well, no one would hang out there to be fed, would they? But we have a nice candy dish with some tasty morsels and a cat with unfortunate habits.
Sigh, get rid of the cat or get rid of the candy dish. But at least give the candy dish a good cleaning.
February 6th, 2009 at 10:15 am
DB, BAHAHAAA! That is by far the best analogy I have heard yet – and I doubt I can ever eat a Tootise Roll again!
The thing is, the longer you are free, the more you can easily see what is a tootsie and roll and what isn’t. Your clarity improves drastically! It is like the light literally comes on in your mind – this comes early on, God gives us that discernment for our own good and protection. But discernment is never a cause for fault-finding, as many have already said, it is to bring about intercession.
I read this morning that the Lord uses anger as a means of identifying and assigning responsibility and to bring about repentance. I was very encouraged by that, and I agree. Let the Lord do that work..but as for me, I’m staying out of the cat box, away from anything that resembles a tootsie roll..some are called to remain, others are called to leave. I am grateful for people like the three couples who God gave grace to remain for far longer than some would expect, not because they were NOT discerning, but because they WERE. Ever think about that? I do.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Benjie,
I’m confident that unbelievers don’t spend time here. I sincerely appreciate your concern for the lost, but I don’t think you need to be concerned about how the lost perceive this site.
February 6th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
DB – I understand your analogy, but I feel a more accurate one would be an analogy of primarily good things, with some bad experiences mixed in - as opposed to, “here’s a few yummies mixed in with a pile of crud” – that’s pretty clearly unpalatable – so you’re basically saying the whole thing is ruined, and it’s not.
Of course, you and I see it differently because we’re working from different fundamentals:
1. Different churches so different experiences.
1.a. I’ve not struggled with legalism or an over focus on my own sin, nor been given bad, overbearing or damaging parenting instruction.
2. I don’t believe the top leadership team is motivated by a desire to control.
3. I don’t believe most pastoral teams are motivated by a desire to control. I can say for a fact that none of the 4 churches I’ve been involved with had that problem.
This doesn’t mean that problems might not exist in some of the churches.
and it doesn’t mean it’s not possible for the top team to handle some things poorly – but I do think it’s a pretty far cry from another poster’s description of this being about exposing the “unfruitful works of darkness” – when it’s being applied to SGM as a whole – and that ends up being how this site reads to me – as applied to SGM as a whole.
February 6th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Jim –
What I am concerned about is how the lost perceive SGM and Christianity in general because of this site & SGMsurvivor.
I’m not saying they dwell on the site & post, but it is safe to say the site has high visibility because of it’s prominent links on SGMsurvivors, and survivors high Google ranking for certain searches.
I understand if we’ll disagree agreeably on this point.
I will end by saying again – none of the negatives I’ve seen discussed on this site (particularly the bent towards legalism, oppression, or any type of control from the pastorate) have been my experience (nor the experience of any of my friends or acquaintences) over the last 20+ years and 4 churches out here in the West.
So hopefully you can all be encouraged with that.
And Jim - as you seem to be an influential and consciensious poster on both sites – I encourage you to be watchful of strings where momentum builds for people to just run off a bunch of nonsense about situations they have no involvement in and no idea about (like the one about San Diego that led me to post originally). Do your part to steer the conversations to the gospel – to something of value.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with us all.
February 6th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Benjie, my brother, please re-read my post; you are actually making my point.
February 6th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Benjie,
” so you’re basically saying the whole thing is ruined, and it’s not.”
1 Cor. 5:6-7: “About the condition of the church, your boasting is not good, indeed it is most unseemly and entirely out of place. Do you not know that just a little leaven will ferment the whole lump of dough? Purge (clean out) the old leaven that you may be fresh dough, still uncontaminated, for Christ, our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed.”
I think DB is explaining that you have yeast in your dough. The bible’s solution is above in quotes.
February 6th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Benjie, it is interesting that you have the same concerns as Billy, and Stein I believe. Basically, you guys are upset because we focus on the negative and not the positives. None of you I don’t think would disagree that there ARE problems. None of us would say that ALL of SGM is corrupted and there are no redeeming qualities or experiences.
So – how to proceed?
I think it would be fair enough to say that if I were to come to your next care group meeting and begin discussing all the problems with SGM (as I see them and others do) that would be inappropriate, because nobody there sees them, and they are, from their own perspectives, gleaning some good from SGM and growing. It would cause disruption, distraction, and bring discouragement.
LIKEWISE, when you, and others, come here and say “you should focus on the good in SGM, not the bad” to people who of their own free will have come on this blog, have seen problems, (we didn’t recruit them or break into their care groups to reveal anything to them!) they are here because they want to be. So it is inappropriate for you to expect us to discuss the highlights of SGM and not discuss the negative. People are here BECAUSE they discerned things. They aren’t here because they didn’t – with the exception of you and a few others who are defending SGM’s good points.
Does that make sense to you guys? Because it isn’t fair to expect us to do something you yourselves would not appreciate – how would you guys feel if we were to turn the tables and show up at your church next week, wearing SGMsurvivors t-shirts and carrying signs that say “CJ is the Pope of SGM”? Wouldn’t that be seen as a bit, um, confrontational and divisive? Not very sensitive to those who attend church there, is it? Much less for the visitors..
How is it you guys (and many others) don’t see that WE aren’t the ones bringing division to the Body by answering questions on a blog visited by people of their own free will, who are hurting and whose eyes have been opened…yes WE are accused of being divisive?
God is the divisive one, in fact. I am saying that His Spirit is responsible for any division you see of the sheep..HE is the one calling them out – not us. We don’t have that power. Yet people show up here all the time defending SGM’s “good” practices and downplaying the negative. Why? Well, I have an opinion as I’m sure others do, but that is for another post..
So please stop asking us to focus more on the good points of SGM. It isn’t going to happen here, it isn’t appropriate given the circumstances. And if someone DOES (dare I say it – Whine?) about that some more, I’m gonna go buy a t-shirt from Guy and Kris and start taking some road trips – so there!
I’m being heavily sarcastic and joking now I hope you know..I hate tpying conversations! Please know – I really do love you guys, and really DO appreciate your contribution here, but you must know, and you should respect, why we don’t and can’t focus on the things you keep asking us to. Just wanted to get that off my mind, since it keeps coming up again and again..
February 6th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Benjie said, “I will end by saying again – none of the negatives I’ve seen discussed on this site (particularly the bent towards legalism, oppression, or any type of control from the pastorate) have been my experience (nor the experience of any of my friends or acquaintences) over the last 20+ years and 4 churches out here in the West.”
Benjie, Is everyone in your SG church treated the same way? There are people in my SG church as well as their friends that are treated wonderfully; always have been always will be. Sadly, that is not the case with everyone. Talk with those that you don’t hang out with. Talk with those who are down and out; those whose families don’t look so good. See if they have had these same wonderful experiences as you and your friends have had. Do a little survey across the board. Hopefully, all will have the same testimony as you have.
February 6th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
Just say No,
It could be that things are all right in B’s church. Or it could be he is a kool aid drinker. When I partook of the kool aid, I didn’t believe anything bad said about my pastors. No way could they have any faults to speak of! They were holy, in my eyes, men to be imitated, not dissed.
When my eyes began to open, I could see what was always right before me. There was control and manipulation. The leaders I followed were not as interested in my soul as they were in my complete obedience. They did not nurture, as much as they drove us like a herd of sheep. Those who couldn’t keep up were left behind.
Sorry, Benjie, but you might not be seeing things in the light of clarity. That is what we are here for – to help people see. Not out of pride but out of love. We want to see Christ’s people set free from the practice of legalism. A little leaven will ferment the whole lump of dough. Christ has all ready sacrificed Himself. 1 Cor. 5:6-7
February 7th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Just say NO (and Benjie) I feel I must add something here…I WAS treatly wonderfully during my time at SGM. I never felt like i wasn’t part of the “in” crowd, even though I was not in leadership. The worst I felt left out was because I am single, and there was always lost concerning married couples, so in that respect, no, I didn’t feel I fit in.
I think because I had such a strong drive to be pleasing to man, to fit in, that I did. I did everything I felt would encourage my acceptance and increase my security there with pastors – I often went to my pastors with probblems, setting the “example” for friends who were not as forthcoming themselves. Because I was humble? No. Because I was a man pleaser.
I think I looked great ot those in the church – which is why my leaving has been met with much confusion, surprise, and as one man described it, “weird”. By all accounts, I should have been happy. I was embracing everything SGM – I knew all the lingo, catch phrases, buzz words, listened to all the sermons, encouraged others to, went to the conferences, listened to the music, read the books they recommended, quoted Piper..I did it all.
So I just wanted to share that perhaps there are others, like me, who on the surface appeared to have it all together, were accepted, etc. but INSIDE they are dying a slow spiritual death, feel in bondage, and have little joy to their personal walks. They are full of fear, as I was.
That being said, of course many do outwardly exhibit what goes on internally – but I was a Pharisee with my cup cleaned outwardly – one would not think the inside was so filthy with sin, pride, fear of man, idolatry, and legalism. But it was.
The only way to know if someone is in bondage is simply to listen to how they talk – it will come out. What drives them and compels them is always obvious if you watch and listen for it. Ask the Lord for discernment in this area, not only for your own lives, but the lives of your brothers and sisters around you.
To those of you in SGM churches who don’t think you have a problem with any of the things I have shared, or what others have shared – please ask yourself how you can help those who do. Point them to JESUS, not pastors. Point them to the Risen Christ, not the Cross alone.
And if you are in a SGM church and you think you might be sensing some problems with your own walk, or seeing things you had not before, ask the Lord for the same discernment. Ask for Him to surround you with people who will point you to Christ. Even if He just sends ONE, you’ll know that person instantly, and the Spirit will bear witness. You know when Christ is being revealed, and when a form of godliness is being passed of AS Christ.
February 7th, 2009 at 12:13 am
canary, you said that those who couldn’t keep up were left behind. How true! No wonder I was so tired by the time I left! I always felt this invisible drive to meet some standard that was unspoken. Problem was that it WAS unspoken, but very real nonetheless. Secondly, I had a choice in the matter. I chose to follow these men, their agendas, and I encouraged others to do the same.
Perhaps that is why I speak out so strongly now against the things happening in my own former church…at least on the blogs for those reading here. I do so because I used to be SGM’s greates recruiter! It makes me sick ot think of it now. I loved SGM, I idolized them. I thought they were the BEST thing to happen to my church..and how wrong I was.
I can honestly say, if my former church decided tomorrow to disfellowship with SGM and remove their adoption, or whatever the process would be, I would probably go back, and be a voice to those hurting and confused. But while they are still under SGM, never.
For now my voice is here. It grows stronger each day, and my love for the Body does as well. Strange how that happens. If you had told me last April 1st what I would be like Feb 1st, I would have laughed. Yet here I am, by the grace of God..
I am so ready for those hurting to be set free – finally. I am so blessed to be part of this, to have met all of you here, and to be able to have a voice to share my testimony..it is so important for all of us to share our experiences..it is the first step towards healing..
February 7th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Juli,
Your comparison to the women you counsiled (I never spell that right, do I?) and SGM is a great one. I have always imagined standing before the Lord in heaven, with CJ and Larry Tomczak and some of my SGM pastors to thank them, or rather, thank the Lord for sending them. Yet it doesn’t mean that they didn’t also do great harm. I can still love my father who was the most Godly man I had ever met, yet turned into a man who molested a young member of his own family. I loved him and I do lovehim , yet i still marched myself into the police statioin to turn in a complaint and led men in uniform and bullet proof jackets into his house to have him arrested. (You really don’t want to mess with me.
JK. It was about right and wrong, not about me or whether Dad’s good had outweighed his bad. His bad could not be ignored even though the man has also done more good than most people I”ve ever met. We still had to deal with what he had done.
and i was still the one driving him to his therapy after that, visiting him in the prison (what seemed all the time), standing up in court and speaking on the victim’s behalf and in the same courtroom, on the same day with the same hearing and judge, standing up and speaking ton my dad’s behalf.
you see, just because you are willing to stand up and say or tell, there is something freaking wrong here, doesn’t mean that you have forgotten the good. it just means that there are times, for the good of all, including sgm, you have to stand up and say or yell, there is somethign freaking wrong here.
February 7th, 2009 at 12:49 am
“I always felt this invisible drive to meet some standard that was unspoken. Problem was that it WAS unspoken, but very real nonetheless.”
I totally agree. Jumping from high school into college it seemed that the pressure to uphold these standards became more of a priority. That was one of the problems I ran into when trying to share my thoughts prior to considering leaving. Because it was all unspoken people perceived some of my concerns as being something I made up.
February 9th, 2009 at 12:33 am
DB – I’m not making your same point – it seems you’re closed to hearing the other side of the arguement. You’re saying mostly bad, little bit of good. I’m saying mostly good, little bit of bad.
I believe Scripture clearly shows us what I’ve observed through my 27 years as a Christian – that every church in the world is as I was trying to describe – imperfect, filled with sinners and led by sinners – that includes SGM.
I understand you feel they’re a step or two past that though, so I guess we’ll remain in disagreement and amicably leave it at that. . . ?
February 9th, 2009 at 1:12 am
Canary – OR, I am seeing things in the light of clarity, and things are as I’ve described them in my experience.
You forgot to include that possibility – we’ll assume it’s just cause you were posting in a hurry
February 9th, 2009 at 1:42 am
Juli – I am glad to hear that you are doing better than you were a year ago.
I’ve said my peace and will not bug you all anymore.
It has been helpful to read through this site – will lead me to keep my eyes and ears open to see if any in my sphere are feeling any of the same.
February 9th, 2009 at 4:40 am
Benjie,
You said, “I believe Scripture clearly shows us what I’ve observed through my 27 years as a Christian – that every church in the world is as I was trying to describe – imperfect, filled with sinners and led by sinners – that includes SGM.”
You are absolutely right! However, there is a difference in “every church in the world”… MOST, when “imperfection” is brought to their attention, at least look at the issues and consider change. SGM, when “imperfection” (abusive leadership, unbiblical expectations, etc.) is brought to their attention, their answer is NOT to look at the issues, NOT to cleanse themselves of the sinful patterns… their answer is to get rid of the people that bring these observations to them, and then cover up by claiming “doctrinal differences.” Since when does confronting a pastor, an organization, in wrong, sinful actions that hurt the body of believers, qualify as doctrinal differences? Not in anyone’s world except SGM-ville.
This is the height of arrogance. You know, Benjie… just because someone says they are humble, it doesn’t mean they are.
And, because of blogs like this one and others, and because of strong, brave Christians in SGM churches all over this country who are standing up for what is right and true, SGM’s unbiblical tactics are being exposed. The more wickedness that is exposed, the stronger and braver the believers become, in speaking Truth and expecting change… whatever “change” looks like at this point.
SGM needs to stop the insanity!
Insanity: “Continuing to do the same thing over and over, and expecting different results”
February 25th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
First, I thank folks for being willing to share their thoughts openly. I do believe it is important to not be islands unto ourselves.
I have read a couple of these posts and some of SGMS and I was at first a bit caught off guard. I read the Person A, Person B, Pastor X deal and thought about Person C. This may just be an A/B conversation but I would like to throw something out.
I preface with this: I have not read all of the blogs, stories, or comments. I have also not talked to anyone mentioned in any of these stories personally or anyone on this site for that matter. So my question may be out of left field and answered somewhere else.
In my limited study of the Bible, I would deduce that God’s mission for those whom he saves is to tell the world about His Son, Jesus. We are, as a body of believers (that is if we have put our faith in Him) to join together and show the world what what the power of the Gospel does in peoples lives.
I also believe that we are clearly told that all of us are sinners, our best efforts are shot full of sin. The real question isn’t if we sin but when we sin. There is no one that is perfect or makes all of the right decisions. Granted those decisions affect us differently and some more severely, but none the less we all make mistakes and wrong decisions at times.
I am reminded of the story in John 8 about the prostitute. It seems pretty clear that Christ himself discusses who it is that should throw the first stone. Also, Matthew 7 when Christ talks about the log and the spec. I know they are two different situations and stories. But in my own heart, I know that when I discuss another person’s sins, and discuss frequently, I am tempted to want to throw the first stone, then I also am very aware of the spec.
Now I am not a leader/pastor, but I am a sinner. I do believe according to Paul’s example I am the worst of sinners. I also know that every single person in every single church is a sinner. Yes some have taken the position of leadership, but how does that fundamentally make them any different than me or you? Are we not all sinners? Have any of us never made a bad decision that has affected someone? Have we never given advice to a friend that blew up in their face? Have we not ever missed a phone call from a friend that needed a ride to the hospital or was contemplating suicide? I feel like the more I read on here I am tempted to start picking up stones.
What I do know is that regardless of what anyone does to me or tells me that I have a sovereign God that has plans that can not be ruined by any sinful human. Is this site designed to point people’s attention to the Sovereign Lord or to fellow sinners faults?
It seems that if people don’t believe in Sovereign Grace that should leave and begin building, or attending, a church that houses their beliefs. Is God glorified in tearing apart or tempted people to tear apart any church/movement that clearly preaches the Gospel? Is this the Main Thing that Christians are to focus on? If is about spreading the word of a certain pastors short comings, then pick up that stone and hurl it as hard as you can. But if it is about the Gospel and Christ awesome work, the pick up the torch and carry it as far as you can grab the bullhorn and scream at the top of your lungs of what the Lord has done and his Amazing Grace to each and every sinnner that has ever been on this earth!
I trust God’s grace rest on her heart as you read this and if not I pray that you humble yourself so you can enjoy the grace of God’s love by submitting your heart to him and believing in his only Son, Jesus Christ.
God Bless
February 25th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Concerned, thank you so much for your comment and good questions and thoughts..I’ll share my own in response, as I offer my own perspective of these blogs and what happens here after about 11 months on them.
First, you said: “Yes some have taken the position of leadership, but how does that fundamentally make them any different than me or you? Are we not all sinners? Have any of us never made a bad decision that has affected someone?”
Absolutely, but Scripture also makes it clear that leaders and teachers will have a higher accountability than those who are not, since they influence others..it also clearly takes into consideration what you pointed out, that these are imperfect men..
James 3:1 - 1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
on further it says:
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
I think in light of these verses, we can examine what is happening here, and on SGM’s site. We all do need to be careful with our words..but I don’t think the purpose of this blog has ever been to focus on the sins of others. However, even when we present the gospel, for it to make sense, a recognition of personal sin must be addressed.How does that happen? With words. And the Holy Spirit using those words to bring a change of mind (repentance) Peter, Paul, James, Stephen..all these men clearly named specific sins of their audiences, and rathe rharshly at times, or so some would suggest. There is a difference between speaking the truth in love, and speaking the truth in judgment…but both involve the Truth, don’t they? The motive is what varies.
SGM would have us convinced there is never a time to address sin in leadership, their faults, or shortcomings…because of all the teachings surrounding their authroity, being a joy to them etc..they have created a perfect storm for us, and perfect protection for themselves – conscious or unconscious on their part, not mine to say – I’m absolutely confident that the sins of these leaders can and should be addressed specfically, publicly, and in love, with the prayer that repentance would result.
We see this in Scripture, and we need to take back the right given to us as thinking, discerning, and righteous saints in Christ to be able to call out sin when we see it, and not shrink back in fear simply because someone might misunderstand our motives. I don’t think Jesus was too concerned with what the Pharisees thought of His motives when He called them white-washed tombs and and vipers. In fact, the Pharisees did go on to assign motive to Jesus – by accusing Him of being demon-possessed. There is a progression of hardness of hearts in the presence of Truth being spoken and lived out. There is also a progression of softening of hearts. If we don’t speak at all, we lose out on the latter as well – because faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (His Word is truth!)
I hope that answered your concerns…rest assured that many on this blog truly are finding grace in Jesus Christ, and loving Him more everyday. He truly is at work and being glorified..I hope you continue to read and be encouraged, and not tempted to pick up stones. But even if you are tempted, I think your own words above should serve to redirect because you are right – it IS and should be about more than calling sin sin, it’s about setting people free, preaching the gospel of Christ and the freedom in Him, and laying out the dynamics at hand is simply one step in that process..
February 25th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Concerned
Actually, you are mistaken. SGM does not clearly preach the Gospel. It messes up the Good News with all sorts of little do’s and don’ts and weird teachings. Also, most, if not all, folks here have submitted themselves “humbly” to the Lord. Maybe they have and you haven’t, ever thought of that? Sometimes I, as a never to be member of SGM, note that those who criticize and question those on this site appear to have a holier than thou attitude. This attitude stems from an elitist attitude that is promoted by the pastors of these congregations.
I also get very tired of all those, from Mahaney on down, who claim to be the “worst” sinner. Is it possible that those who vie for this dubious title are actually a bit egotistical? This may break the heart of those who are trying to become “Miss Worst Sinner USA” but we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that all of us sin and all of us are in the process of sanctification so we are more or less equal.
It is important to cast stones at times. Even Ecclesiastes talks about a time to cast stones and then a time to gather stones. Any ministry that goes off track needs to have some stones hurled at it in order to get is attention. Such churches can redefine the simple faith and lead others astray.
The Gospel is ill represented to the world by controlling and abusive churches. I actually think it is a good idea to warn others of such churches. I have spent some time on a blog written by those who are no longer Christian believers. Interestingly, many of them have walked away from the faith due to issues that many have discussed on this site. Perhaps they may not have run away from the faith if they knew others who had been hurt by their churches and still ran to Jesus for His solace.
When Jesus ascended into heaven, He left us with two commands. one was to preach the Gospel in all of the world. The second was to teach others everything He had commanded us to do. So, by saying we must preach the Gospel is only part of it. We must also follow Him and I think SGM has some weird ideas in this area.
Let me get this straight. You want those here to stop criticizing and start spreading the Gospel. How about doing both? All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Did you know that it includes pastors as well? Did you know that the Reformation brought the faith back to the people? The church at that time fought this Reformation because the Pope believed that only the “leaders” could interpret the faith for their followers. Yet, Scripture clearly shows that even the “least among these” can see God clearly and can even point out faults in their leaders. SGM reminds me of the Roman Catholic church of 600 years ago. Praise God for Martin Luther.
Finally, you are confused, Confused. The folks here clearly point to not only a sovereign God, but to a God of mercy, kindness, love and peace. They point to a God that does not heap burdens upon those He loves but helps them carry their pain. They speak of a God who has forgiven their sins and gives them freedom in Christ. They speak of an infinite God with a panoply of characteristics that SGM has chosen to pick and choose from. I think SGM has much to learn from the folks here. If SGM doesn’t change, I predict that in 10 years it will be gone. However, don’t worry. Old CJ will come up with another permutation under a new name to protect the guilty.
So Confused, listen and learn. You might be surprised at how well these folks are living out their faith. Perhaps you can learn something from them. I admire them. They have taken a stand and have done so at considerable cost. Maybe you should just read and figure out why they did what they did.
February 25th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Sorry, I meant to address this to Confused.
February 26th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Juli, thanks for putting that thought into your response. I think it is good to have accountability. I do wonder if folks have blanketed the SGM movement/church due to the experience at one church. I know there are certain restaurants I avoid in one town but will eat at the same chain in another town because of customer service or quality is different even though they are the same chain.
I do appreciate that everyone on here is willing to freely speak what is on their hearts. I think it is even better that most folks seem willing to get feedback to make sure they are not trapped in a secret place of pride stuck way down in their hearts and being deceived by the most deceptive thing on this planet. I think my overall thought of what I have read is that it is limited in it’s evidence’s of grace. I would throw this observation out there. I do believe it is great to help people walk through sin, and at times in a public fashion, but very few of the post, that I have read, clearly state the Gospel so that if someone, an unbeliever, was to go onto this page, would be directed to God’s ulimate sacrafice. Does if feel like they would be more aware of earthly dealings than the Gospel?
Dee, it is nice to get some direct thoughts. I appreciate that you are passionate about life. I am sorry for you that you have such an agenda. A side note, it is God’s grace that saved us. It may be worth extending that to fellow believers, even if they do carry different views/beliefs on how to walk out the Christian faith, assuming they truly believe. Also, you raise a good point. What are the do’s and don’ts you mentioned.
Also, for my own knowledge, this is open to everyone, which church fulfill’s the criteria that have not been fulfilled in the church’s mentioned on this blog?
As I understand this blog, is this primarily designed to discuss how a movement/church has not fulfilled scripture as interpreted by another set of believers? Is the core message different or how it is carried out? Is it designed to discuss the lack of fulfillment/perceived lack of fulfillment of leadership in a given church and get folks around that thought process? I know those questions look like they are loaded, but I promise, they are genuine. I have not had time to read all the post or background, thus I ask the quesitons.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read the above stuff and look forward to hearing back from you.
February 26th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Confused,
I think your confusion is due to you breathing the air in SGland too long. That isn’t meant to be a put down, my friend. I remember being intoxicated with SG air and the wonderful FEEL of belonging to “the best place on Earth!” Honestly, all your comments (questions) are SG speak. SG is a sub-set of the evangelical christian culture which identifies with the reformed/charismatic/evangelical christian world. To most, even those inside, SG seems healthy, BUT to others, SG raises concerns, i.e “something just isn’t right here!” That was my thinking after a few years, “something just isn’t right here.”
When I started push and proding, I found that my inquiries were not really welcomed. When the “I am the worst sinner” thing wears thin and gets old, I began being thankful that I was actually living in the power of HIS resurrection, rather than the power of my sin. My identity was in His LIFE, not my death–read Gal. 2 19-20. I began living under no condemnation, no separation, and as a son instead of the “worst of sinners.” Instead of my obsession with sin, which HE paid for and fully settled, finished–I can now rejoice in HIS grace, in HIS life living itself out through me as me. I and you, who are in Christ, are the clothing that He wears on the earth today, 2 Cor 5:20. I am tempted to go on, but just wanted to address one area of your post.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Confused,
First off welcome to this site! I am sure that a lot of what you are reading is confusing especially if you don’t have any issues in your current SGM church. You mention something about sharing EOG’s on this site. Though you may not see it in every post there are examples of individuals (most of them are regular posters) who share how God has moved in their life. Also for those who allow people to link to their blog you can see a lot of this growth through their writing.
I know for me personally I believe that SGM (at least what I saw in my own church) preached a skewed version of the Gospel. We took the meaning of having a cross centered life too far to the point the Cross becomes an idol. Instead we should focus on Christ first and foremost which will lead to a love for the Cross and the Gospel. The Cross is only a slab of wood, it is who died on it, and what He did it for that makes any difference.
February 26th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Confused,
You asked-
As I understand this blog, is this primarily designed to discuss how a movement/church has not fulfilled scripture as interpreted by another set of believers? Is the core message different or how it is carried out? Is it designed to discuss the lack of fulfillment/perceived lack of fulfillment of leadership in a given church and get folks around that thought process? I know those questions look like they are loaded, but I promise, they are genuine. I have not had time to read all the post or background, thus I ask the questions.
I’m Jim, and I started this blog. While I believe that SGM often proclaims a truncated Gospel, I haven’t spent much time addressing this. I started this blog with the goal of becoming a voice crying from suburbia, calling for reform within SGM, specifically in regards to their polity. SGM polity is heterodoxy. This is much more than one set of believers discussing another set of believers beliefs or practices. SGM stands completely alone in their polity.
We also discuss the fruit of their polity, which is why we name names and expose abuse on the part of SGM leadership.
I hope this helps.
February 26th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
There are a number of good books on the market that I am in the process of acquiring and reading. Confused, please follow the earlier link to a synopsis of Churches That Abuse. I think that it sums up quite clearly some of the issues found within SGM. There is a new category that seems to be emerging called Bible based cults. These groups are defined by their seeming adherence to the Gospel (meaning Good News). One the surface, they sound very good. But, as one becomes more and more involved, there appear more and more rules. Sometimes this is evidenced by more and more burdens placed on the member. Instead of good news, they are inundated with bad news…they are dirty rotten sinners, and despite protestation to the contrary, the leaders are the ones less affected by sin. If they were not, then how could anyone follow their directives? So, a authoritarian hierarchy is formed. When an individual approaches said leader with some disagreement, they are discouraged to do so by personal attacks, told they are the only ones who have brought this issue up, told they are negative and have gathered this information in a negative way, told they are sinners and can’t possibly know that this is a good idea, etc. This is a strange thing about abusive groups. There are so many Bible verses and so many ways to spin.
Now, Confused, you want specifics. I met a beautiful, kind young woman and through a set of coincidences she found out that I had some issues with a Sovereign Grace Church. Tears sprang into her eyes and she turned her head away from me. To make a tragic story short…She told me that she and her boyfriend started attending an SGM church locally. Well, soon after she became a regular, she was hounded about her dress, belief s about women’s roles, etc. She wasn’t ready to acquiesce. So, the leaders started working on her friend and kept telling him she wasn’t a good example of a SGM “girl talk” sort of woman and that he could do better. They won and he broke up with her. Frankly, he doesn’t deserve her.She ran from the church,very disappointed in contact with supposed Christians. I reassured her that she was not alone and I know she is probably reading this. If so, you are in a better place now. Praise God she is now in a far better fellowship where she is welcomed and accepted and loved for who she is.
You talk about me extending grace? SGM is not known for this and sometimes one must throw stones to get attention. In fact, these folks on this blog know far more about grace than you apparently do. Jesus was never much about the Pharisees, leaders etc. He often condemned the oppression of the weak by the leaders.
One other thing, this is a blog. I know many here know one another. I, however, know only one or two folks who post here. This site is important to challenge assumptions. Everyone is busy and long entries become tiring to all who read them. So, Confused, assume that I love the Lord, know the Bible, doctrine and church history. I evangelize regularly, serve the Lord in the inner city, lead Bible studies, and teach. Assume that I care about all who post here and I am getting rather tired of seeing them once agin not understood by a self serving, narcissistic organization that seem to exist for the glory of a 70s has been who get a kick of asserting his power whenever he can use his charismatic personality to bamboozle. He is now on his third permutation because permutations 1 + 2 were embarrassing and he had to change the name…kind of like Amway changed to Quickstar. New name, still lousy organization.
I will be starting a blog in the near future with a friend that will exist to be a discussion site for theology, etc. for the regular person. Confused, please join in and debate theology. It will be interesting unless you are not allowed to discuss theology with a woman.
February 26th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
“I met a beautiful, kind young woman and through a set of coincidences she found out that I had some issues with a Sovereign Grace Church. ”
wow, this so makes me sad! Dear sister, if you ARE reading along here, please know that you simply are loved just as you are in the eyes of God. It truly is not about how you dress, or whatever other millstones they tried to tie to your neck! Please do not feel condemend or unloved simply because some guy friend was manipulated into seeing you with eyes provided by SGM.
OHHH! this makes me mad. And I’m going there! I get angry when I hear about stories of women who were beat down, demoralized, shunned, judged, criticised and condemend in SGM…I can’t imagine how this makes their Father in heaven feel. And no, before someone asks me, I don’t think this anger is wrong or misdirected…clearly we’ve all heard tons of stories like this one..where women paid the ultimate price.
These women are daughters of the King, SGM men should treat them as such!!!!! They are a GIFT to you guys, to be cherished and loved, as Christ loved the church – not to be walked on, abused, manipulated, belittled, or used to make yourself feel more like a man. I’m not saying ALL SGM men do this of course, but there is certainly an increased potential for it happening..for “some” reason…
February 26th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Confused-
Welcome to the site-take time to hang out.
I agree that all churches have issues and sinners who lead them. However-I have never encountered a group of Christians who are so “upfront” about being “the worst of sinners” and the such, who when they are actually approached about a specific sin-become indignant, arrogant, and downright nasty. I have been a Christian for over 30 years, I’ve seen the best and the worst of the Christian community. SGM is the only group that I’ve ever felt compelled to warn people about because of their intentional duplicity when it comes to leaders being held accountable.
I attended SG for almost a decade and saw it first hand and experienced it first hand. As for your concern that many of us were at one church and can’t know the whole movement. I attended 3 different churches in SG, have met with and know at least 2 of the Apostles and am familiar with (on a relational basis) with 5 other SG churches and their pastors. The problems described on this blog are evident in every church I am familiar with and not just 1 or 2.
Peace to you-mm
February 26th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Thanks Music for the insight.
I think that is great thing being able to be so close to other Christians. I will say that it does seem that a pretty limited number to make a blanket decision.
I understand that there is a big difference between Pastors and for-profit companies but does it ever amaze you how we are often comfortable with one thing in one environment and uncomfortable with that same thing in another environment?
How many of us work for organizations that are laying people off regardless of their time with the company or make decisions without any of us being in the meetings to help them, or not managing us correctly or kindly, and we still go to work everyday, hopefully glad that the Lord has at least provided us with work or maybe the lack there of for the sake of his bigger plans in the future. And then every once in a while, we decide that enough is enough and the things we were willing to overlook in the past we are no longer willing to do so. Some of us may put a label of “the Lord provided this other job” or “I feel like God is telling me to leave” or “I need to tell people about what this company is doing to its employees”.
But our hearts, whether actual God-given direction or the deception of the heart, make the switch. We are no longer a cheerleader for the organization we once enjoyed, or endured, but we are now the opposition and now all of those things that used to be ok, or tolerable, are all of a sudden “terrible, deceptive, false, lies….”
All of this at the time feels so right, like “yea they did treat me wrong, I better tell people about working there, they are terrible or at least not great.” But the amazing thing seems to be the people that are still there, enjoying what the company does for them. Getting their paycheck enjoying life.
Meanwhile, the person that left is still telling people about how bad the company is, using valuable time that they could be using to discuss the benefit of their new company. More importantly, since you can say more than one thing at a time, why not use the time to discuss the kindness of God to provide the new job and company or maybe even for the opportunity to trust him as one awaits a new job?
I am more interested in the overall mission of any of this. Is it really the warning that is going to save a soul or get one closer to the Lord. Is that the mission? If it is not about being the worst of sinner like Paul talks about (which by the way, if we aren’t the worst of sinners does that mean I am a better sinner than the next guy?) then what is this life about? Every second I am not pointing someone towards Jesus and his sacrifice on the “slab of wood”.
February 26th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
click here if you want to know more about my experiences in SG
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=73
Confused-
I understand what you’re getting at-I’m not sure if anyone will be saved because of this site. I do know it’s helped some grow in the Lord.
I’ve also seen people devastated in their faith and some walk away from God as a direct result of how they were treated by SG pastors and leaders. I hope I never see it again and that’s why I even bother to post.
peace-mm
February 27th, 2009 at 11:13 am
This article may have been posted earlier but I missed it. I read it today and do believe it is an excellent synopsos of SGM.
http://www.batteredsheep.com/uncovering.html
February 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Confused, we are called to “have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11. This is why I read the blogs and post. I was once one of SGM’s biggest cheerleaders but God in His kindness took the veil off of my eyes and allowed me to see how deceived I had been. I personally know many who have been abused in more than one SGM church. There are patterns of abuse, control and manipulation found across this movement. I believe that the abuse, control, manipulation, etc. is the result of the leaders believing and teaching a counterfeit Gospel which has resulted in great error in doctrine and idolatry of the movement and local churches. We are called to care for our brothers and sisters in Christ and to blow the trumpet when the enemy is at hand. That is what these blogs are doing – blowing the trumpet because danger is at hand for the body of Christ within SGM. It is only God who can open blind eyes to see the truth and we pray that He opens the eyes of those still in deception. We are called to be His hand and feet upon this earth and to speak the truth boldly. That is why most of us are writing on this blog. We love our brothers and sisters and we want them to walk in the freedom of the Gospel and to live the abundant life that Jesus has promised us. This is not possible when you are being controlled and manipulated by men. It is only possible when you are worshipping Jesus Christ and walking in the Spirit of God.
Aw, what a wonderful and glorious thing it is to break out of the darkness and walk in the newness of Life!! Remember back to when you were first saved and compare it to your time within SGM. Is Jesus Christ your 1st love today? Hopefully our answer is yes but all too often for those in SGM, their 1st love is SGM or their local SGM church and they don’t even realize it. This is part of what makes all of this so sad. Most people in SGM churches came because of their love for Jesus and their desire to walk in a manner worthy of the Gospel. Through subtle deception, manipulation and control we were sidetracked into thinking that we were worshipping Jesus but in truth we were not. We were worhipping the movement and the church. We had stopped thinking for ourselves and blindly believed everything the pastors or others told us to think. No more. We are to think for ourselves and evaluate Scripture for ourselves. If you find that you are afraid to even listen to someone outside the movement or read books that are not on your local SGM booktable, then you are on a dangerous path and you have stopped thinking for yourself. This is part of what happens – you lose all confidence and trust in the Holy Spirit who is dwelling within you, guiding and directing your steps. God wants us to trust Him and Him alone!
February 27th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Just say no-to Kool Aid,
Well said!! I am tempted to try to add my 2 cents worth to what you wrote, but won’t for fear of polluting the truth of what you said.
February 27th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Just Say No!….well said! I think that some of the casual readers and drive-bys don’t understand the number churches and pastors involved in all of this, or how many people are affected all over the country. Good comment!
February 27th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Confused,
One of the ways that the Lord brought truth to me (and ultimately faith again) was by the spoken Word…faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. He used actual people in my life speaking REAL TRUTH into me life and mind, and caused me to stop and think…I already had all the questions mulling, the guilt, realizing I had lost my joy in Christ, etc…I just didn’t match it up to SGM and my church being the reason I was unable to break free. I tried to break free from idolatry while still in my church, even looked to my church to help me, but it was impossible because
1) they refused to acknowledge my sins were legalism and also idolatry and instead called it pride and rebellion and eventually I was told I was deceived.
2) I really needed to break my dependency on the Body of Christ and the Lord used their inability to help me to encourage me to run to Him..which is what I should have done in the first place! then I would not have been an idolator!
3) I was unaware that the SGM culture itself was a large contributing factor in why I was unable to break free. The teachings encouraged legalism and idolatry in me..simply put. Maybe not for everyone, but for me. I will never go back.
When I started SEEING freedom, joy and peace in others who were not part of SGM my mind began to change..and as these people spoke of their intimacy with Christ that was independent from the church, the teachings I had been taught suddenly lost their power, because all I had been taught was simply NOT TRUE – and these people were living proof.
I guess for me, I want my presence here to be that living proof for those who are in bondage – My life, and my increased faith since leaving SGM is a direct contradiction to EVERYTHING SGM teaches. And how can you (not you specifically, just speaking generally) simply dismiss that without exchanging the truth for a lie and hardening your heart? Living proof.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Thanks MM for your input. I read some of your story, did not have enough time to read it all. I am sorry you had a challenging time.
Why do we choose to believe what we choose to believe? If SGM is the wrong movement, is the new right one? It would appear that this is now the SGMR and SGMS movement. At what point does one decide to believe that this is the new right way to view things? I do believe that I know people that have walked through a lot of what is discussed here, only down the road to realize (or rebelieve) that there was underlying sin in their own heart that drove them away.
And I also wonder why folks are afraid of acknowledging the fact that they are the worst of sinners. Isn’t that what brings us so much joy, as a reformed believer, that no matter how bad we were, God still chose us, now with every sin we discover we know there is even more grace from God.
I love knowing that I am the worst of sinners, when my heart doesn’t blind me to that very fact, because I know that God is waiting to pour out his grace. Amen!
For Dee’s sake I will keep this short and attempt to make this my final post. I do believe there are few people on SGMR that find this all that insightful
. I pray that God will continue to unite his body here on earth so His Son and the Glorious Gospel will be our one message.
February 27th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Confused,
I have just one thought to add to all the rest: we are sinners until Jesus redeems us. Then we are saints that sometimes sin. That is how Paul opens many of his letters to the churches – to the saints. This is a fundamental disagreement that I have with SGM doctrine. Sin focus does not draw me to Jesus. It is the goodness, the love, the mercy, the glory of God that draws me. Even in Revelations, the churches are addressed as saints. Go see.
I had a deep revelation at one point in my life of just how sinful I was. I was made to look into the cup of God’s wrath, then forgiven. I never have to drink of that cup. Believe me, I will never forget that experience. However, I now see myself as the Lord’s adopted daughter, valued in His eyes, a saint along with all the other saints that have come and gone. I am redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and walk that way. Just my 2 cents…
February 27th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Confused, my dear friend, please, please stop with the “worst sinner” stuff. If it makes you feel good, I guess it is OK, but your identity is no longer in Adam, the dead, blind, separated sinner; rather your identity is now in the death, burial, and resurrection of the LIVING WORD, the Messiah, the LORD JESUS! As long as your identity is in your being the “worst sinner,” you will relate to you Abba on that basis.
Your sin (s), when you are in CHRIST, is/are forgiven (say thank you and live in His grace). The final, last sacrifice for sin has been made. God is NOT waiting to “pour out His grace;” He already has–there is NO MORE SACRIFICE, no more condemnation–It is finished. He is NOT impressed with our false humility (we too often use those words as a ritual or mantra to appease God, when he doesn’t need it)of saying we are the “worst of sinners!” Who cares about our verbiage. What matters is that Jesus, the Messiah, paid in full–all of it. Look and Live, look to Jesus now and live. I know and have heard the statement that “God is waiting to pour out his grace” used so many times. I also know that you can make people feel guilty (especially Christian) and have them come up front and percieve that as God moving on His people, BUT when the dust clears, our hope is in HIS LIFE. God isn’t waiting on us to pour out His grace; He did that (in regards to our sin) at the apex of redemptive history 2000 years ago. Our hope, again, is in HIS LIFE which is mysteriously in union with our spirits via the Holy Spirit Col 1:27.
February 27th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
G.D.,
Oh, Very well said!
February 27th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Canary, I knew you’d see it because the air and vision up theredefinitely is conducive to clarity, plus the kitty cat (the law) is now locked up in the cage.
February 27th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Canary, I just read your other recent post, and you really do see it–wonderful truth–great stuff. What a joy it is living as son and daughter with full access to a loving, grace-giving Abba Father who will not withhold any good gift from His children. I no longer have to hope for the next conference, the next “meeting”, or the next anything because I have access directly into His loving heart–WOW!!!! isn’t His grace, when seen for what it is, attractive and magnetic. Makes us want to run as fast as we can towards it; rather than run and hide from Him because of being under condemnation or unfinished business we think we have with Him.
February 27th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Confused,
I think you should read all of MM’s man story before making a blanket comment like “i’m sorry you had a challenging time.” If you had read and taken in all of his story and believed even half of it I think you tone would have been less condescending and almost dismissive. The word challenging is especially hurtful. At least to me. We walked through something very similiar to his family. It almost comes across like you weren’t even listening, like you were just trying to get to your point. In your next paragraph you suggest in retrospect that it is sin in our own hearts that drive us away. Do you think that is the only reason someone would leave SGM? If so, you haven’t been really “listening” to the stories and testamonies here.
You know what….. his story is more than challenging…it is heartbreaking, what happened was WRONG on so many levels……he was misled and manipulated by those in authority over him….just like SO MANY of us.
His story should NEVER happen in the body of Christ and it shouldn’t happen over and over again. It should cause righteous anger to rise up that Christ’s Bride would do this.
I know MANY people that have left and I don’t know any that have said later down the line that it was their own sinful heart that caused them to leave.
They have said after grieving the loss of their friends and “family”,
“FREE AT LAST! FREE AT LAST! THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, I’M FREE AT LAST!!!!!!
February 27th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Our lives are hidden in Christ, in whom we move and live and have our being. Our new identity in Christ is marked by the imputed work of our Savior. It is not about us.
Confused, your analogy of the company is wrong. Here is a similar one.
Say you work for a company. You learned that the company was not honest financially (raising money for ‘missions’ when what is really happening is paying off the church’s mortgage or not giving benevolence to those in the church that need it, yet leading others to believe that is being done.). You bring it up. Your boss fires you.
Or how about this: there is a child care facility on the campus of your company. The owners of the company, when confronted with the fact that child abuse is going on, covers it up, and tells the parents of the abused child to get over it. Then, you walk by the day care facility at the company and see the same abuser sitting on the floor, playing with kids.
These are better analogies that explain why people on S & R are passionate about either forcing change or warning those staying behind.
Do you believe that SGM is simply one of many gatherings of the Body of Christ? You seem to see it as a superior or almost separate religion. Just asking. Thanks for hanging in there with all these questions, and for responding with such kindness and humility.
February 27th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned,
It’s enough to make me dance. Direct access to a our living God through His Son, Jesus – how can anyone stand not to have that? I’ll tell you this: never again will I give my freedom in Christ away. So, G.D., I’m doing a little jig for the both of us! (Also, I remember “going from meeeting to meeting” expecting God, like that was the only place I could find Him – those days are loooooong gone!).
February 27th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Confused,
I certainly cannot speak for every single person in SGM..but they can’t speak for ME either. These blogs are simply where we can tell our stories and experience.
I don’t know how many times I’ve said that it is POSSIBLE for us to actually FEEL the way we do, be convinced of the things we do, and still have some in SGM who don’t – I’m talking about other sheep here, not the leaders. The leaders are responsible, according to THEIR OWN TEACHINGS that since they see themselves as overseers of our souls, to address this. yet, here we are – hurting little sheep and angry sheep, and our overseers bailed on us.
My guess is they no longer see us as part of the Body and that would be the only rationalization on their part not to engage in conversation with us. Plenty of sheep do, but the issue is not the sheep, like you, who aren’t experiecning the same things many here have in SGM< but why the Shepherds and overseers are ignroing us, when were part of their churches and even more since we left? This is hypocritical. And it is unbiblical. And it just wrong.
So we continue to share our stories – because until leadership in SGM acknowledges the fact that they HAVE sinned against us (by their own reasoning) because they failed to keep us part of the Body..again, in their minds. I don’t knowa single person who left who actually feels “uncovered” now or unprotected – unless they just recently left. The fact is, let’s just apply their logic and reasoning (which I don’t agree with but for the sake of my point) and you will soon see that there is a HUGE disconnect between what they PREACH and what they DO. Hypocrites.
I appreicate the sheep in SGM coming on the blog to talk, hang out, discuss..but just once, would a leader please step up to the plate and answer the problems here? Why don’t the current SGM members see the lackof love and integrity in the lack of response by leaders? They just don’t care! How can you, or anyone else in SGM, feel like you can trust these guys watching how they are treating us, even if you DON’T agree with us point by point. We’re still part of the Body.
I triple-dog-dare a SGM leader to man-up and actually contact Jim privately to discuss this – not in teh sense of “what do we have to do to take the blogs down” but an honest “We are concerned with how this is escalating and we want to address the issues being discussed…let’s talk.” Just a starting point to show they at least care…
God will judge them, and hold them to a higher accountability since they were teachers…and they are the Ezekiel shepherds God spoke of if they continue as they have been…they have actually SCATTERED the flock. BUt God has redeemed..He loves us even if they can’t bring themselves to anymore since we disagree with them..
February 27th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Julie said: “We are concerned with how this is escalating and we want to address the issues being discussed…let’s talk.” Just a starting point to show they at least care…
Sadly Julie, the evidence points to the fact that these pastors and leaders of SGM do not care about the sheep. They care about the movement, their churches, and their positions. I have seen too much to believe otherwise. Once a person accepts this fact, much becomes clear.
Watch CJ’s interview with Josh Harris that was presented in the missions video this past fall. CJ made it very clear that SGM is all about caring for the pastors and giving money (by the people). He said nothing about caring for the people.
February 28th, 2009 at 1:10 am
Confused
Leave it alone. So sin drove them away?!!! Egads! It must be a bore to live with you. Every disagreement and differences would be resolved by your statement that one is a dirty rotten sinner. Let’s turn the tables. I will predict that one day you will find your decision to run with the SGM yahoos is due to your sin.
What I find amusing is the insistence that , while being the worst of sinners, you seem to know that all the others are sinning by speaking out. Somehow, you seem to avoid such sin while still being the worst sinner. It must be nice to be the worst of sinners and yet so perfect that you can declare the sin of others.
In case you think I don’t know what I am talking about, I (yes, me a woman) have just finished teaching the entire Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology to a Sunday school class. I even taught the section on sin. You seem to think you have special insight into the sin issue. You don’t. Everyone here has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. What is it with you guys. Sin, sin, sin. How about a little more grace, love and mercy to put into the mix? What a sad life you must live since you are the worst of sinners, I bet you have to spend every minute of every day outlining your sin. Do you have time for lunch?
This vying for worst sinner status is an ego trip. I can see the meetings now. “I’m the worst sinner!” “No you’re not, I am.” “Hey the pastor claims that he is. He is getting a little uppity.”
Well, this weary sinner is going to bed because i am tired, probably due to sin.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:01 am
I am so very grieved by this site. I prayed for many of you by name last night. I pray that you find healing in Christ alone and His Word. I pray specifically for those in leadership of this site. I pray that God will open the eyes of your hearts. I pray specifically for Jim and Protestant King. How grievous this site is to my heart.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:24 am
Praying:
Welcome to SGM Refuge & Reform.
My name is Protestant “Knight,” and not “King.” I would certainly never ascribe the title “King,” to myself (or any person); no worries… I know that when scanning through items here, it would be an easy mistake to make.
I am grieved as well, Praying. I am grieved that the leadership structure at Sovereign Grace Ministries has left a trail of tragedy -a trail of bodies, if you will- that in their own eyes they seem to be only partially accountable for, at best. I’m grieved they relegate sites like this into the realm of “gossip and slander,” yet feel free on many occasions to engage in gossip and slander in order to defend a position unsubstantiated by scripture. I’m grieved at their non-apology apologies. I’m grieved that they exist to support leaders and plant churches at the expense of the lives of their sheep, a flock which seems only to serve one purpose to them: stock to produce more leaders and churches.
There are exceptional people within SGM, Praying, no doubt about it. You seem like one of them. Anyone here will never turn away your prayer for Christ alone and His word… many of them need it; we all need it.
I appreciate your honesty, and pray God’s blessings on you.
~pk
March 4th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Oh, please forgive my oversight on your name! That was completely my fault! I am not a part of SMG, except to read books written by some of their leadership and wives. I was brought to those books by authors that I highly respect like John Piper, Al Mohler, John MacArthur, Mark Dever, and R.C. Sproul. Because CJ Mahaney is respected and supported by these men and I have met, read, and respected these men for decades I began to read materials from SMG.
I do not desire to be involved with this site more than just in prayer. But, I did not want to portray myself in any way falsely. I trust the group of men that CJ Mahaney has intimately surrounded himself with for years and know that God will use them as iron to sharpen him. But, as for this site I am grieved…but praying.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Praying:
I am in agreement in prayer with you in regard to “iron sharpens iron.”
Once again, no worries about my name.
I appreciate your honesty and you posting your concerns here on the Concerned page… we’re kinda used to many who disagree with this site jumping into the middle of a topic to deliver wide and scathing observations on our sin, and then slinking away. You didn’t do that, and in fact you clarified yourself, and that is appreciated.
Go with God’s blessings!
~pk
March 4th, 2009 at 10:20 am
The other day I left a post describing my pastor’s response when I had a face-to-face conversation with him about these blogs. In a later post, I indicated that my experience speaks to my experience alone. I felt that I was courteous and yet when I checked back later, I found that I was being slammed by Canary for what I can’t figure out. I got the gist of Juli’s post and wanted her to know that. I got the gist of someone’s else’s post (who’s handle I can’t recall) and wanted that person to know that. What did I say that was offensive? Why all the vitriol?
March 4th, 2009 at 11:42 am
Hi Joel:
Just to let you know, I saw your statements for what they were.
I’ll let Canary answer your question; I’m not ducking out of this one, I just feel Canary doesn’t need me to put words in her mouth.
~pk
March 4th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Joel,
“I found that I was being slammed by Canary for what I can’t figure out. ”
Which post are you referring to? Could you re-post it here, so I’ll know how to answer you? Thanks.
March 4th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
PK, yes indeed, Canary is quite capable of expression.
Joel what you understand as vitriol, I understand as passion for true truth. We Christians are too often more concerned with appearing NICE and forget to stand up for what is VERY wrong. When leadership, no matter what brand it is, acts like little popes, they need their wings clipped. Instead of taking shots at a free bird, maybe think a little harder about the “birds” that dictate behind the “pulpits” (another term found nowhere in the BOOK) acting as if they are in the very stead of God.
I know you are sincere and genuine and all of that, but SGM air just has an effect on one’s ability to discern sometimes. Step back, ask questions, ask God, and be willing to follow TRUTH no matter where it leads. This is just my opinion, not vitriol, just passion and FREE.
March 4th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Praying, thanks for stopping in and your comments – something you said I found interesting, that you began reading books by SGM because men you already respected recommended them..(Piper, Mohler, etc.)
I don’t know you or your motives of course, but your comment simply concerned me, because I sensed in it the possibility of loyalty to men, doctrines, etc. over loyalt to truth, and the potential to follow flawed men and not the perfect Spirit. (as I did myself at one time while in SGM) I hope you don’t feel I am accusing you of this, I simply felt the need to say it here, since you brought it up. I know there are others who blindly follow and don’t ask questions or rock the boat because they fear being labelled as a rebel, deceived, etc. Again, not saying that was your motive in accepting SGM’s teachings based on what others recomended, but I do pray from this point on, we all put our Berean beenies on and THINK THINK THINK!
I just wanted to remind those reading that being a Berean is NOT a bad thing, thinking for ourselves and asking questions – it’s all good! And double checking and getting second opinions in fact are an evidence of wisdom, not rebellion as some would suggest.
After I left SGM last year, and as I was leaving, I was critcised for not trusting SGM leaders enough. I find that ridiculous, since I idolized them. How can you NOT trust your idol? My pastor actually said to me in an email that he wished I would just trust him on this (his points about me NOT being in idolatry, rather he suggested I was deceived and he could help me work through things)
So I was placed between a rock (Jesus and His Word and Truth) and a hard place. (the affirmation and acceptance by my church/pastor who were my idols). Instead of trusting the Holy Spirit IN ME and God’s sovereignty, my pastor was in essence telling me I should listen to him and trust him, and disregard the leading of the Spirit in my life. Talk about temptation. I have found this attack on the ability for individuals to think is very common in SGM. If you doubt your ability to know and recognize the truth, then what hope is there? But the Word says that His Spirit will lead us into ALL TRUTH…not just parts of it. We need to be led by the Spirit, not man. Despite the temptation, I kept running…FLEE IDOLATRY we are told. So I did.
Much love and grace to you, and thank you so much for your prayers!!
March 23rd, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Jim,
I guess my question was if you are wanting to help care for people which I understand, is why do you not attempt to list local churches that you view as healthy and that would be beneficial for people to be involved in. I would fear that a blog could act as a church for some people. It also seems like the temptation is for people to continue to harbor and increase dislike because of their experience instead of moving on and basking in the love of the Lord
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Abe,
I have the same concern about what I would define as “dwelling”. It’s one reason I’ve recently repented of inflammatory statements, as I fear that I probably inflamed some hearts. I’m not thinking of anyone in particular-just cause and effect.
Things like “church” recommendations or “should I stay or should I go” are always conversations that I have offline. I don’t do online ministry.
You and I might need to define terms, as my view of ekklesia, which for some reason is translated as “church” in English, and for many means a place, might differ from your definition.
Thanks for jumping over to this thread to continue the conversation!
March 23rd, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Abe,
Thanks for changing threads. I’m wondering, what makes you think that those of us who post are not basking in the Lord’s love? I’m just curious, because I get such a different sense from what I read. Also, people here do “go” to church, and have outside ministries. Perhaps if you hang around a while and get to know us, your opinion might change. We do speak of our experiences because others who read but don’t post are still struggling with the control and lack of freedom that some of the churches practice. They have questions and fears. Hopefully, our experiences will help them work things out in their own hearts and minds.
Though I haven’t seen Jim do “ministring” online, he has created a place where people can express their thoughts and ideas, how they have grown in their faith, and how they have been able to move on into the freedom which Jesus gives all His kids. Hope this helps you understand us a little better.
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Abe
Perhaps you and others here could help me understand this tendency towards cliches. Are you all taught phrases such as “basking in the Lord’s love?” It almost seems stilted to me. People leave a church that has caused them pain. They are quite normal in their expressions of grief, anger, sorrow, etc. Then I read they are supposed to be “basking.” Is this how you are taught to encourage one another? I sometimes feel like I am in an English 101 course in which the professor give “phrases” to use in a sentence.
I would not use those words in supporting others. I might say something like…”I hope you find the Lord’s peace in your sorrow.” Or better yet, be real and use normal expressions of concern.
What concerns me about groups like SGM is the”group talk.”You say the same things, the exact same way. I guess its kind of like shaving one’s head to look like a particular leader.
Ah well… I guess I will go “bask” in a hot bath.
Dee
March 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Have you heard this one: “better than I deserve”?
March 24th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Dee
Sorry for the word choice. I think that cliches are dangerous, you can have the talk down and not the faith to back it. I also think that certain sayings such as “better than I deserve” is kind of hard to make fun of, since it is biblical, so if you mock that, it seems like you could mock someone for using scripture. I don’t think that sayings should be such a stumbling block, if it is from the heart it shouldn’t matter what kind of vocabulary we use, Paul for example said he would not use word of flattery while he was among the gentiles. the gospel is simple, we don’t have to use eloquent words. We are not to judge the intentions of someone else….
March 24th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Also I don’t attend a SGM
March 24th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“Better than I deserve” is a “REFORMED” thing. Yes of course it is true, but habitually saying it because the leaders we “idolize” says it is a little boring and rote.
Here is how an article I just read starts out:
“As I write this, for some reason my thoughts are turned to a phrase C. J. Mahaney is famous for. Apparently when asked, “How are you doing?” he makes it a habit to answer, “Better than I deserve.”‘
Although the saying may be true, it doesn’t remove the shallowness of the mantra from our lips just because our leader uses it. Wanting to be just like CJ makes many of us Christian groupies. We need to seek personal intimacy with the Lord Jesus, not clamoring to be like CJ or any other man with feet of clay.
March 24th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
Authenticity! Being yourself. Taking Scripture and making it your own. We don’t talk like Paul or Peter. The reason Scripture is alive is that God used Paul, and Paul’s way of saying things, to make God’s story come alive. I remember seeing an evangelist on Larry King one time. I forget who it was. But Larry asked him to stop quoting Scripture and to answer his questions. At first, I was offended; but then I understood. We must take the truths of Scripture, make it uniquely ours and then share this with a jaded world.
Its like teaching our children how to talk. We find ways to help them express themselves. We love it when they come up with their own little ways of saying things. One of my daughters, when she was two, called the shower a” hi ya ya.” To this day I smile when I think of it. She found her way to say it and effectively communicated her thought. And she made me smile in the process. Isn’t that how we all should be?
By the way, SGM is not the only organization with group speak. Bit I certainly see a lot of it when the critics come on this site and talk down to those here. Don’t get me wrong. I memorize Scripture. But, when I talk with others, I paraphrase it to make it “Dee ” speak. I think God sometimes smiles along with me.
To the battle
D
I want to be like Paul; not be Paul.
March 25th, 2009 at 9:23 am
The reason scripture is alive is because it is God breathed. 2 Tim 3:16. I apologize for coming across as talking down on someone by using christian talk. i think that some ways of saying things that are common can be helpful. yes there are sayings that I despise, but I find it amazing that I will discount what someone said or their authenticity because they used it, it might be there lack of a better term and that is their most effective way of communicating, it might even be their way of saying it, they might like the saying, its not just because they want to be like someone. Who are we to judge were not any better than them. It shouldn’t cause divisions. Personally I am not the smartest person and the best communicator, I think 1 Cor 26-31 applies to me and if I have to use a cliche phrase to get a point across then I need to do it. I also think that it is important to be careful making the Bible your own language. It is easy to distort the Bible and make it say what you want it to say. Not a correction, I want to speak in an understanding way were people understand my sincerity, but I also want my mouth to be filled with the words of God, and that is what scripture is, It is Gods word, not Paul’s or Matthew’s. I want to make God’s word my own, i want to be like God, I want to speak his truth. As far as better than I deserve, could it possibly be a way that people have picked up on, just like any other ministry tool that helps them be reminded of their amazing god that is so gracious to them. should we jump to conclusions and think that just because someone uses the same saying they want to be like that person. I don’t think it is shallow for everyone that uses it, I think it is a reminder an hopefully fills their soul full of Joy. I have a lot of role models from the past, but just because I try and do things doesn’t mean that it is shallow and doesn’t lead to effectiveness.
March 25th, 2009 at 11:21 am
It’s okay, Abe. Speak how you need to. I’m interested in why you are interested in being here. Can we help you in someway? Are there any questions that Jim can answer for you? Feel free to ask away!
March 25th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Hi abe
if you look, my first sentence said Scripture is from God. However, the writers were not merely taking dictation. God used Paul, his way of saying things and his culture to state the eternal truths. Those eternal truths are relevant today but some of the parables, etc may go over the heads of the lost. We can say the same thing but update it for a city based, nonagrarian society. One does not have to do this, but one can.I have been very involved with evangelism for close to 40 years. I find that when I make Scripture relevant to today, I have deeper conversations.
I agree that one can quote verbatim and still be used by God. But, I have an interesting observation. In my years in the faith, I have seen far too many instances in which actual Scripture used and distorted. In fact, many of today’s weird or abusive groups do a great job in quoting Scripture. They happen to be wrong in how they apply it.
In fact, I believe that SGM is one of these groups. Its funny how one can use Bible verses to say many things.In SGM the verses involving authority and forgiveness have been used to control and demean people. Instead of Scripture being a guide, it becomes an exact measure. Guess what? If we use Scripture this way, I can “get” anyone who does not agree with me. Pastors are not exempt from using the Bible for selfish gain. If it isn’t money, it is power. You know, the former servant leader is now the leader of the servants. So, I would say that quoting verbatim doesn’t always mean quoting it correctly.
Unfortunately, there are many other groups who believe that the actual words have power, which is centered in an ancient Egyptian metaphysical construct. If one said certain words, certain things would happen. That is how the health and wealth crowd use Scripture and they make Christians sound like fools.
In the end, abe, I bet we are very closely aligned. I bet you would approve of the way that I share the Gospel with many folks. I love to get out in the trenches and witness. My only reason for bringing this all up is that I have seen far too many pat answers, arrogance, and smug assurance from those who do not like what these dear folks are saying. Its kind of like a gun shoot at the OK Corral….let’s see who can draw first. Its shoot and run and it is highly ineffective. You know, dueling Bible verses.
I hope you understand what I am saying. Now, to use an overused societal expression…Peace, out.
D
March 25th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
I was not mocking the phrase. “Better than I deserve” but giving an example of one of the many cliches that SGM folks use. Of course we are all doing better than we deserve but is that the focus that most glorifes God? I don’t think so and in fact, I believe that statements like this put the focus right back on man and away from the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How bad I am; how unworthy I am; what a terrible rotten sinner I am. The truth is that we all must be pretty valuable to the Father even in our sinful state because He was willing to send His only Son to this earth in the form of man and crucify Him for us to pay the penalty for our sin and so that we can be in relationship with Him. The truth is that we are valuable because we were created by Him, in His image and He so loved the world!!! Doesn’t this focus glorify God more than “better than I deserve”. I love what a friend of mine says when asked how are you? “Blessed and most highly favored by the Lord”. This I do believe glorifies God because of His wonderful work and blessings to me!!
Yes we were terrible and rotten but once saved, the Holy Spirit is dwelling within our hearts. Yes we are still in the flesh but the NT calls us saints who sin and we are being changed from glory to glory. I for one want to focus on My wonderful Savior and Lord, fall more in love with Him everyday and because of this, I will want to be more and more holy, be more and more like HIm and to do things in a manner worthy of the Gospel. I believe that it glorifies God when I see the glory within myself because it is evidence of the great and wonderful sanctification that is taking place within me BY HIM! Hallelujah! Do I want to be quick to see my sin and confess and repent? Yes indeed but then I release the sin to Him and walk away HAPPY! (I am learning this from our new pastor in our new church that is not a part of SGM! I am learning to be happy – yupee!) Doesn’t this glorify God? I think so. SGM would tell me that I am being prideful but this is not pride. This is walking in the victory that Jesus paid for me to take hold of and appropriate in my life. I am overflowing with love for Him right now writing this. Don’t be deceived any longer by focusing on your sinfulness- walk in the Victory which is yours because Jesus died and resurrected and is sitting at the right hand of the Father!
Getting back to cliches within SGM:
Definition of cliches=(coming from French, clique – clump, claylike mass, orig: to pattern in clay) 1. orig., a stereotype printing plate 2. an expression or idea that has beome trite.
I believe people are trying to fit into the mold. Oh those in SGM churches don’t realize it but they have come to think that this is godly speech and that it is a sign of humility but it is a false humility and it’s trying to be like everyone else. It is a sign that they have stopped thinking for themselves and have taken on CJ et al’s style. Again, trying to be in the image of CJ and SGM rather than in the image of Jesus Christ. We are to model Jesus Christ, not Paul or any of the disciples and certainly not CJ, et al.
March 25th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Abe, you say that you are not in an SGM church. Would you mind explaining what your interest in in this blog? Thanks brother!
March 25th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Fred,
Yes & amen…Thats right… come on, unh huh, (hankie waving in the air)..I feel it, I feel it. Preach it. Glooowrie…. (can you tell I was raised in the south?)
MiMi
February 9th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Bernice,
Unfortunately this book is recommended on the GirlTalk blog:
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/womanly-dominion
So, I’m not sure your pastors will see your concern…
February 9th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Thanks for your input SueBee. I am wondering if anyone out there has been hit with this oppressive sort of mentality, that occassionally pokes it’s ugly head out?
What sort of experiences have you had or seen, regarding women’s roles?
Or am I just seeing things that are not there?
February 9th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Bernice,
Big hugs from a formerly oppressed woman.
I agree with SueBee that your pastors probably won’t understand. Heck, if the women around you don’t see it, that’s a real signal that something is wacked.
Seems like you have come to a crossroads. Determine what Jesus thought about women, what His heart was for them. Was He oppressive? Did He box women in? There is a book you can buy at Amazon.com entitled “What Paul Really Thought About Women” (I’ll find the author’s name for you). It is an eye-opener. Do your research, pray, and then make a decision about who and what you will follow.
Our hearts are with you. Your role as a woman is precious in God’s eyes. There is no where in the bible where you are commanded to never rise above housekeeping. Tell that to Mother Theresa and hear her chuckle in heaven.
February 9th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
The book, entitled “What Paul Really Said About Women” is written by John Temple. There is another book I am about to jump into which is written by Bruce Marchiano, the actor who portrayed Jesus on film. It is called “Jesus, the Man Who Loved Women”. Bruce really delved into the heart of Jesus during his role on film. He has a true grasp of how Jesus felt about the women he encountered. My daughter read the book and had a good cry. She said it helped her to see Jesus as a real person.
Anyway, if you must read what your church is requiring you to, read these two books for some semblance of balance. The goal is for you to learn and understand the heart of Jesus for you! What is His calling on your precious life? What have you been created especially to do on this earth? How are you a part of bringing His Kingdom to this planet of ours?
Also, BE BALANCED. Some of us women here are homemakers, some of us are in college, some of us are divorced and raising kids on our own. Each has her own special journey. It all centers around the Lord of this universe. No two journies are the same.
Lastly, do not give up your freedom in Christ. Know what the bible says about this, and you will be lest likely to be taken in by false doctrine. Hugs!!
February 9th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Bernice,
If you’ve read through the blog, you will find many stories similar to yours. You are not alone!
I won’t say that change can’t happen, but it has been the experience of many saints here that talking to cg leaders results in little change. Again, you have to pray and decide what is best for you.
What you desire is good and right, to reach out to your neighbors, to resisit oppression, to focus on the Lord instead of your sin. Mark L. quoted Tozer:
While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves — blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the Perfect One. (Pursuit of God)
Bernice, your heart is going in the right direction. Be true to your conscience, which is how the Lord will speak. Don’t let others “tinker with your soul”, but keep your faith focused on God’s word in your life.
I believe when you read “What Paul Really Said About Women”, you will be set free from false doctrine. Women don’t want to push forward to grasp all leadership from men. We just want to be treated equally, as the Lord sees us, free in Christ to fulfill our individual purpose. Women who do not question the burdens that some churches place upon them are, sadly, just as deceived as the ones who oppress them. Isn’t it amazing that we, as American women, are required to give up parts of our freedom that is given to us by U.S. law when we enter the church lobby?
There is so much good advice and experience wrapped up in this blog. I hope you get a chance to read up, though it might take a while. Again, you are not alone!
February 9th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
I must add for clarification that I do believe my husband is my head, and that his head is Christ. Yet my husband treats me as an equal and encourages me to step out in my gifts to serve the Lord. He does not need to preach obedience and submission. He does not tell me how to serve him. He loves me like Jesus, and trusts the Lord in me that I will be the wife he needs. He certainly does not believe that my only life’s calling is to keep my home neat. I, on the other hand, respect him greatly because of his integrity in how he lives and loves. It really isn’t complicated.
Be free, Bernice!
February 9th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Bernice,
I think if you feel God is calling you to talk to your cg leaders than you should.
My former church was slowly started to get a little wacky with the way they viewed women’s roles as well. I can totally relate to your feeling of oppression. That atmosphere for me was deadly since I am a young woman (21), doesn’t feel called to be married (at least anytime soon), and I felt God calling me into working some type of full-time ministry with the teens. I spent time going to the pastors of my church to discuss some of these issues knowing that it was most likely a fruitless endeavor, but I still felt God calling me to go forward. In all that time I always felt as if I wasn’t being godly and I was crazy being a woman with these feelings. Yet here I am, still with the same callings and I believe some small doors opening for me to serve.
I will be praying for you as He walks you through this time.
February 10th, 2010 at 12:10 am
Canary your advice is such a balm. Bernice, it’s been a short time since we left our SG church and the memory is still very fresh of that weight which I carried. It was always pressing, as though I would be crushed if I didn’t escape the box. My heart was crying for the freedom Christ died for. Your heart is rebelling against the law, as it should be. Jesus died to set us free from the law. I couldn’t flee as I longed to though, because my husband didn’t recognize the peril. I had to wait on the Lord to show him. Maybe a year passed; the waiting was difficult. During that time I became more and more convinced that there was no life, no freedom where we were and more and more convinced that I was free in Christ. The Lord did gradually open my husband’s eyes until he was also convinced and took the lead. We went to our care group leader with our concerns. If you do, don’t count on the info staying with them. Others have mentioned thinking they would be having a confidential meeting with their care group leader, only to find that the info was shared with the pastor, before they were prepared to share with him. This was our experience as well. We did go to our pastors with our concerns but not until we had decided we were on our way out the door. We were convinced that there would not be sufficient change to keep us there. We longed to minister, to serve, to reach the community, to have opportunities for evangelism and missions. We left. Now we are serving in our gifts, the weight is gone, the box is gone. I’m certainly not saying you should leave, but as Canary said you are at a Crossroads. We have dear friends that are convinced that they can help bring reform and are still inside praying and plugging away. We were convinced that we could not and left. I love and respect my friend’s decision to stay. I know it is very lonely inside SG, when you are convinced that things are not right, and can’t talk to anyone about it. You have folks here who understand how you can feel alone in a community of believers. Just knowing there were sisters and brothers here who understood was a huge help to me, (Thanks Canary!) I’ll be praying the Lord will give you wisdom and peace, and help you to wait on His will for your family. He will go before you regardless of the direction. You are free in Christ and you don’t have to do anything to gain that freedom, He accomplished it on the cross and in his resurrection. No man can take it, it’s yours.
February 10th, 2010 at 12:33 am
Hope, thank you for bringing your personal experience to my issue. You shed some light by sharing your journey. I love how you lacked any bitterness and your heart is still soft towards the church. This is definitely a journey and I thank you for your insight into the care group leader issue – as I had my suspicisions of conversations happening behind our backs.
Your words lifted me and I am grateful for them.
February 10th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Bernice, I say “Amen” to your prayer!
Hope,
You are free in Christ and you don’t have to do anything to gain that freedom, He accomplished it on the cross and in his resurrection. No man can take it, it’s yours.
Preach it, sister saint!
February 10th, 2010 at 1:08 am
Hey Bethany, I pray those small doors will open wide to make way for your calling. It is an exciting thing to move forward in the Lord, to find that you are doing what you were born to. Very exciting!
February 10th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Thanks Canary. It has been a long road but it is good to feel like I am slowly coming back
February 10th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Bernice,
Your aspiring missionary friend will have more than a gender issue to contend with in SGM. They do not believe in a missionary call in any sense that you would be familiar with. There are only two possibilities for missionary work in SGM:
1) join a short term mission trip initiated by your church leadership
2) join a church planting team. To my knowledge there are no plans for pioneer church planting or mission work in unreached areas. SGM only adopts overseas churches.
In both cases the concept of missionary work is to join something that is initiated by the apostolic team. There is no concept of an individual call to missions (or anything else) in SGM. She will either have to give up and accept SGM telling her that she is not called for one reason or another, or leave SGM to obey God’s call on her life.
I’m sorry if that sounds harsh. In the past, folks like myself, Bill K, Eric T, Mike P, and many others have tried to stay in the church that they loved and work out their missionary call in the context of SGM. It simply does not work, and I would want to save her the inevitable pain and disappointment of trying.
I’d be happy to help her work through this issue and connect her to people that can help her work out her call. Jim has my email address and approval to release it to any one who needs it.
February 10th, 2010 at 5:14 pm
Greg -
Good post at 201 on 2/10. One amendment – you say “SGM only adopts overseas churches”. Not true; there have been numerous adoptions in the US the last couple of years.
Greg points out that there are short term mission trips. These seem to be of two types. Some are medical missions and apparently accomplish some good. Others, though, are more of the tourism type. I know of a married couple who participated in SG church “missions” trips and returned from them thoroughly disillusioned. They told me that there was negligible mercy ministry, teaching, or Christ-sharing on the trips that they took. A number of people I know that have participated in such trips felt it would have been better to send less people who were prepared to assist more.
The SG church where I attended/served lost members and potential members because of a lack in true missions, mercy ministry, and day-to-day evangelism. Even as a pastor on staff I advised missions-minded folk that they would be better off finding a more supportive church.
It is strange. Many SG churches preach through Acts which means that that is part of the fodder for their care groups so they discuss the book, too. They sing the virtues of Piper’s missions book “Let the Nations Be Glad”. But they just don’t get it when it comes down to practicing. Yet another example of Ready-Fire-Aim.
Longing for the day that every tongue sings His praise!
Former SG Pastor
February 10th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
FSGP, I read Greg’s “SGM only adopts overseas churches,” to mean that SG doesn’t pioneer new churches oversees, they only adopt existing churches.
My experience was that you had to either be in construction or a medical professional to have an opportunity to even go on a trip, and the opportunities were so few. How sad to keep so much of the team on the bench that clearly have a desire to go. SG cannot promote missions, in the “normal” sense, to the people because there is no opportunity to go. So missions equals a money sucking campaign with the famous annual missions presentation, when everyone “does missions” with their wallets and walks away feeling like they’ve done their part to promote the Gospel throughout the world. Blah.
The church does have a mission and we wanted our children to have the opportunity to go to another country if they were called to, and if not, to see the change in those who returned, to hear of the work being done throughout the world and marvel at our amazing God who seeks and saves the lost (and not once a year via CJ.) We questioned the legacy we would leave to our children: stuck in the box called SG.
February 10th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Sorry for the confusing statement. Hope is correct. I meant to say that both local and overseas churches are added to the SGM network, but there are no known pioneer church plants. The clear message since the Manila church was shut down has been, “Follow our model or leave.”
February 10th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Hope & Greg -
Thanks for the clarification.
Greg, you mean you don’t regard church “plants” in Orange County, CA, or Arlington, VA, or San Francisco as pioneer? Yeah, me neither.
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
February 10th, 2010 at 7:03 pm
To continue, here is the really troubling aspect of SGM. While individual local pastors may be more flexible. I would suggest that SGM leadership does not believe in an individual call to anything other than to follow your head. So, a man decides to follow SGM “apostolic” authority, and that authority determines his gifts and area of service (which can change at any time). Women and children follow the head of the household. This is why single women have felt left out of ministry for so long.
To anyone who may still be in SGM and does not believe me, try this. Contact the apostolic head over your church and tell him that you feel that you are called to be ______ (pick one from Eph 4:11) and see what happens. The only positions that you can volunteer for are service positions which assist your apostolic or pastoral head in accomplishing his goals.
Personally, I believe that the bible teaches both authority and the priesthood of the believer, and that those two ways of hearing God must be in balance in the home and in church for the Body of Christ to be healthy. When we begin to emphasize one over the other, weird stuff happens.
February 10th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Wow. Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, the girl decided to abandon her dream of becoming a missionary. I don’t really know what else to say but it somewhat saddens me. She still remains in SGM.
All of you shed some light on the whole missionary thing to me, as well as the way they go about adopting churches overseas.
Hey, can someone elighten me on the Manila church scenerio?
February 10th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Bernice,
There is a lot of disagreement over what actually happened, but the essential sequence of events was:
1) PDI decides that it wants to go to the nations. The plan was to start a school of cross cultural church planting in Pasadena (advertised in PDI magazine) and an initial church plant in Manila as a base to all of Asia.
2) Lots of current and potential missioaries join the Pasedena church in hope of being sent out with pastoral covering
3) Two couples are selected to initiate the CP in Manila based on their missions experience. They had about two years of experience with PDI.
4) The CP goes well initially, but disagreements arise over what the team is supposed to do, their relationship to PDI, and the nature of their oversight. I talked to both sides at the time because I was thinking about going. Each had completely different views of what was happening – a real disconnect over goals, methodology, and governance.
5) The CP team breaks with PDI and encourages the church to do the same. The congregation is shattered.
6) Bill and Margaret Kellers (Larry’s sister) are sent in to rescue the situation and take over what is left. They labor there for five years. Bill told me that he asked for but never got clear direction from PDI. There were various apostolic team members involved, but Che Ahn becomes the contact point for them.
7) C.J. takes over leadership of PDI from Larry (I’m unsure of the sequence here, but it was a key event).
8 ) C.J. decides to shut down the Manila church. The Kellers are ordered to come home. Bill asks to have a role in transitioning the church to local oversight. He request is denied and he is told to go back to being a carpenter.
9) All overseas mission work is put on hold. John Loftness is sent to Pasadena, in part, to deal with the disappointments of the missionaries in the church. He spends nine months helping many of them find other churches to attend.
10) Eventually, the Kellers, Larry Tomczak, Che Ahn, and a host of missionaries and church planters leave PDI.
Tragic
If anyone here was closer to the situation, feel free to amend my comments.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
FSGP and Greg:
What is really funny, ironic or perhaps just plain odd, is that Capital Hill Baptist Church just planted a church in Arlington last year.(you can get the name on Founders.org.) With so many areas around the world or even in the U.S. in need of churhes, why in the world would SGM plant a church in the same area perhaps within blocks of a church so recently planted by their dear friend Mark Dever?
Let us not also forgot that when SGM plants a church the emphasis seems to be on sheep stealing rather than genuine evangelism but I forgot that SGM is the true local church.
February 10th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
FSGP:
“I know of a married couple who participated in SG church “missions” trips and returned from them thoroughly disillusioned. They told me that there was negligible mercy ministry, teaching, or Christ-sharing on the trips that they took. A number of people I know that have participated in such trips felt it would have been better to send less people who were prepared to assist more.”
I went on a few cross cultural missions trips during my time in SGM to Romania, Mexico and the U.K. and your statment could not be more accurate. The trips to the first two locations really were more like vacations because very few people on the team could speak the native language which made genuine evangelisn difficult. Only the trip to the U.K. was meaningful and probably because we partnered with Terry’s Virgo’s New Fronteiers Team and they were well prepared to engage in extensive evangelism.
“The SG church where I attended/served lost members and potential members because of a lack in true missions, mercy ministry, and day-to-day evangelism. Even as a pastor on staff I advised missions-minded folk that they would be better off finding a more supportive church”
Also, well said. I also know many people who left SGM because of the lack of true missionary work occuring. Your post also reaffirms my comments I made to Chad earlier today. Namely, another reason for the lack of missions work is that SGM pastors spend little to no time equipping their churches for evangelism except for the occasional high profile seminar when they bring in Bob Donahue.
Given John Piper’’s zeal for missions, I sometime wonder how he co-exists with CJ. Any thoughts on how this relationship continues to exist? Also, did you attend the Celebration East conference when John Piper gave his call to Missions? A good source told me that CJ desparately did not want Piper to give this message.
February 10th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
Jim, can you fill in Bernice on Manila or refer her to a post on the topic? It looks like my last post never made it.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:17 am
Hi all,
I comment here infrequently because of my busy schedule, but I read many of the discussions. I thought I’d make a comment because missions-or the lack thereof-was one of the main reasons I left my sgm church.
Bernice, unfortunately what everyone has said is 100% correct. SGM simply does not do missions. Oh, they will protest vigorously that they do. But as has already been outlined above, what passes for “missions” bears no resemblance to anything any other church or denom would use that phrase for.
Two incidents stand out in my mind. The first is, when I was a sophomore in college I went on a “Mission:X” trip with other students from Florida sgm churches (which wasn’t really a missions trip, but that’s another story…). As I was raising money to go on this trip, I was instructed by the Sr. P. to not send support letters to members of the congregation, lest I take away from the tithes. That was his stated reason. The church ended up giving me a very nominal amount for the trip after I had already raised everything I needed.
The second incident occured only a couple of months before my wife and I ended up leaving the church. We were pretty fed up with spinning our wheels about the missions issue. We told one of the pastors that we wouldn’t be attending that year’s Celebration conference, and instead would be giving what we would have spent to missions. Among the many things mentioned in the berating we received, we were asked “have you considered that Celebration is missions?”
Why no…no I haven’t.
Exintern
February 11th, 2010 at 8:41 am
FSGP said:
“Greg, you mean you don’t regard church “plants” in Orange County, CA, or Arlington, VA, or San Francisco as pioneer? Yeah, me neither.”
I always find it funny but sad when I hear an SGM Leader talk about “bringing the gospel” to Fredericksburg VA or Arlington VA. It is not like most of the people in these areas haven’t already heard the gospel. The way these SGM Leaders talk one would think that there are no churches etc. in this area.
Also, as one person pointed out, most of the people that SGM attracts with their “church plants” are typically already believers. It is not as if they bring most of the people in the area that join their to Christ. As some call it, they “poach” believers from existing churches in the area of their “church plant.”
February 11th, 2010 at 9:11 am
Google maps is our friend in this regard. When you see a plant, go to google, click maps, type the address of the new plant, click search nearby, and type in “church”.
The US strategy clearly follows the franchise model, except that SGM sees “competition” as a very good thing.
Has “the fields are ripe for harvest” become “oh good, there are a lot of Christians there”?
As stated, this is not missionary work by any stretch of the imagination, but seems to be sgm’s mission. To boldly go into Christian/church infested areas.
I still want to puke when I hear how these deals are sold to the congregations.
I’m not totally opposed to the stated philosophy behind their overseas work. It makes sense to work with local leaders. BUT, why are there local leaders among unreached or under reached people groups?
Because true missionaries sacrificed everything to take the Gospel where it had not yet been heard. I don’t see sgm supporting this. Ever.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Hi formersgm-er, exintern et al,
Regarding SGM and Missions – agreed.
Have you all read the shocking latest post on SGM Survivors regarding Mahaney’s massive gifts to Southern Baptist Seminary?
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=1455
Essentially he gives in excess of $100,000 (£65 000 for us Brits) both from himself personally and from SGM corporately and is designated various titles such as “Honoury Associate” and put on the “Presidents Council”. Now far be it from me to judge the motives of his heart (if he really is the worst of sinners as he claims …
… but I wonder how much a rich looking seminary like that really needs such massive amounts of money.
Imagine if those huge amounts were invested in otherseas missions work. Imagine what the suffering in Haiti could do with those amounts of money!
Missions? No chance. When I was in SGM England, I moved into the city centre and expressed enthusiasm for the opportunity of being a present right in the city centre and was told off because I was moving away from “the local church” rather than seeing the potential.
February 11th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Hey Dan,
I did see that post…pretty interesting. Someone in the comments section over there (maybe Kris) made the comment that what is truly bizarre is that so much is being given to a school that sgm would never send one of their own to. And you’re right…that money could be doing so much good on the mission field.
Doesn’t surprise me at all that they would tell you off for moving into the city centre. As has been discussed previously, sgm is all about wealthy sub-urbs.
Exintern
February 11th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Interesting contrast between Acts 29 and SGM. Acts 29 understands that cultural shifts begin in cities, so that’s where they target.
Also interesting that member churches agree to give 10% directly to future plants (Acts 29 doesn’t touch the funds), while sgm member churches give 10% to sgm.
Their affiliate covenant is posted on their website. Has anyone here ever seen SGM’s?
I’m guessing that Acts 29 is around 10 years old. They have twice as many member churches as SGM, which claims to be “devoted to planting and supporting local churches”.
Acts 29’s 10 year goal is 1000 new plants. What’s sgm’s 10 year goal?
February 11th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Greg:
Your synopsis of the Philippines situation sounds correct from what I know of the matter and it also sounds very similar to the pattern which unfolded with the Tammarus in Austria where differences of opinion concerning methods, oversight and financial support from PDI eventually caused the Tammarus to separate. Interestingly, Steve Shank was responsible for their oversight and in a conversation I had with the Tammarus, it seemed tha manner in which Steve handled that relationship contibuted to their disaffection. Sounds like a familiar pattern in the U.S.
A few years ago, SGM made a big deal out of pastors coming to the pastors college from Brazil and XXXXXXX and obviously relationships do not appear to be have continued. Does anyone know any details about these two cross cultural attempts floundered? The XXXXXXX situation actually made me ill because SGM made an entire Missions Presentation out of Danny and Melodye Jones taking the XXXXXXX pastor and his wife out to some very nice restaurant in Orlando for a birthday or annniversary and I can remember watching it and thinking what in the world does this have to do with missions work?
February 11th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
formersgmer says “Given John Piper’s zeal for missions, I sometime wonder how he co-exists with CJ. Any thoughts on how this relationship continues to exist? Also, did you attend the Celebration East conference when John Piper gave his call to Missions?”
I don’t know how JP and CJ co-exist. Their dissimilarities are many. Piper flies coach, has his daughter shop at thrift stores, and splurges on the $6 senior buffet. CJ sends Tony to coach (probably NOT), gives his daughter a half-mil house, and splurges at DC eateries where the appetizers cost twice JP’s meal. JP actually participates in sports by running 3-4 times weekly. CJ blogs about sports 3-4 times monthly. Maybe this is a case of opposites attracting. It would be interesting to hear JP’s thoughts on SGM “missions”. I wonder if he would advise CJ, SGM, and affiliates to pour nearly a quarter of a million dollars yearly into the gospel-deprived at Southern Seminary. formersgmer, I didn’t attend the conference but I may have tracked down the audio from a session. Was it in 1998?
Jim – Did you get “To boldly go into Christian/church infested areas” from a SGc mission/value statement? ROFL if it wasn’t so painfully true.
Back to formersgmer and others – There are SG churches out there that have an evangelistic focus. CovFellowship produced a study called “Proclaim” which I personally found helpful and tried to introduce at the SGc in my capacity as staff pastor. My experience? There was greater resistance to the Gospel within the church than there was with pagans! The SGc I attended/served was the least evangelistic, most inward-focused church I have ever been associated with. What can you expect when staff members boast that “I don’t even know any non-Christians”?
Former SG Pastor
February 11th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Former-I edited your comment, as that’s a country best talked about offline. The relationship with XXXXXXX is strong and ongoing. I know a pastor who was there last month.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
Here is something that I have been thinking about for a long time that may fold this discussion into recent admissions at Grace Church. One of Larry’s mottos was, “take risks, live adventurously” That pioneering style of leadership generated to a lot of new ideas and ventures, and of course, some missteps. The real tragedy of Manila was not there were problems with the original team, but that the leadership’s response was to completely shut down and pull back from any and all mission work. They determined to never let something like that ever happen again. I was clearly told that, and there was a lot of collateral damage caused by that decision.
I’m sorry, life doesn’t work that way. Anytime you want to do something for God, you risk setbacks and failure, but you have to pick yourself up and go at it again, albeit a bit wiser. C.J.’s response to Manila, and a whole series of situations since he took over leadership has been risk adverse. That is, to try to keep bad things from happening at all costs. Is that why he was given the reigns?
Risk adverse leaders and the organizaions they lead are, by necessity, control oriented. They genuinely believe they are protecting people from harm, but are they? Are they not protecting themselves from the dread that something bad might happen that is out of their control? I’ve always loved C.J; we was very kind to me, but I fundamentally disagree with his style of leadership. Taken too far, risk avoidance will justify suppressing or ecommunicating some members for the common good. Particularly vulnerable are the wounded, artists, pioneers, and change agents – anyone who might challenge the status quo.
So, back to the original question on the first issue of PDI Magazine: “Are you a pioneer or a settler?” They would have to answer, “We’re settlers because it’s a lot safer than pioneering.”
February 11th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Formersgmer,
You said: “Given John Piper’s zeal for missions, I sometime wonder how he co-exists with CJ. Any thoughts on how this relationship continues to exist? Also, did you attend the Celebration East conference when John Piper gave his call to Missions? A good source told me that CJ desparately did not want Piper to give this message.”
I was at Celebration East 1999 when Piper gave his call to missions. It was, to say the least, inspiring. The mp3 is posted on the Desiring God web site here:
http://www.desiringgod.org/Res....._Thy_Name/
CJ made a few confusing, awkward comments afterwards about not knowing the timing for application of the message. After that, I don’t remember any SGM public response to Piper’s message. I do not know the particulars on the Piper – Mahaney friendship, but it seems to have continued.
I have a suggestion for people like me still in SGM who have a heart for pioneer missions. Since SGM is not doing an adequate job of reaching the unreached, but yet as an organization is definitely giving to outside groups such as the SBC, we should follow their example. We should take a sizeable portion of the money normally given to the local church and instead give it to Desiring God or some other missionary organization. If asked by SGM leaders, we can say: “SGM gives to outside groups, so why can’t we?”
February 11th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Jim:
Thank you. The editing was a good call. My bad.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Jim:
Good call for the edit. My bad for not being attuned to the sensitivity.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
FSGP:
I think Piper may have given that message at the 1999 Celebration East conference. I may even still have a copy albeit on cassette.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Sgmsingle:
“We should take a sizeable portion of the money normally given to the local church and instead give it to Desiring God or some other missionary organization. If asked by SGM leaders, we can say: “SGM gives to outside groups, so why can’t we?””
Excellent thought but my cynical side must ask you “Are you trying to pick a fight with your local pastors?”…:)
FSGP:
What do you think?
February 11th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
FSGP said:
“I wonder if he would advise CJ, SGM, and affiliates to pour nearly a quarter of a million dollars yearly into the gospel-deprived at Southern Seminary.”
FSGP,
Actually, SGM gave AT LEAST $100,000 to Southern Seminary from 2003 (when it made its first contribution -didn’t exist before that) to 2007. Over a five year period, that works out to an average of $20,000 per year.
C.J Mahaney have given AT LEAST $100,000 in total to Southern Seminary since 2002 (at least I think that’s the first year he gave).
It’s bad enough as it is, but for clarification they ARE NOT giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to the seminary yearly.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
SGMsingle:
On a more serious tone, if you really feel called to missionary work, see Greg’s posts earlier in this thread. If you really want to do this work you are calling to have to leave SGM unless you are content to limit you activity to either medical missions trips and trips focused around construction activity.
February 11th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Deb -
Thanks for the correction. I had access to SS journal hardcopy as well as the PDFs and misread. Thanks for pointing out my error.
SGMsingle & formersgmer -
On giving to SGM, SGc, or other organizations – That is probably best approached with prayer and careful consideration. If I still attended a SGc I would be asking a lot of questions about finances. I would have a problem with giving to my local SGc which in turn gives to SGM which in turn gives to Ligonier, Southern Seminary, and destitute suburban SG churches in California. I would have a problem with giving to the annual SGM plea to support the PC, SGM conferences, and church plants and adoptions in the remote areas of metropolitan Philadelphia, the greater DC area, suburban Phoenix, and the Gospel-deprived in San Francisco. But that’s just me.
Thanks for the corrections and discussion,
Former SG pastor
February 11th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Formersgmer,
“Are you trying to pick a fight with your local pastors?” No, I suspect they will not ask about outside giving. If they do, I will remind them that SGM does the same.
About my calling, God has surprising ways of seeing His purpose fulfilled. I am confident God will provide in His own way. I am certainly willing to leave SGM if it becomes a matter of obeying God rather than man.
February 11th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
The SGc I attended/served was the least evangelistic, most inward-focused church I have ever been associated with. What can you expect when staff members boast that “I don’t even know any non-Christian.”
I remember the first few months after leaving pdi, looking around at the world and seeing other folks with new eyes. They existed outsite my ex-small world! The revelation was both shocking and delightful. I was shocked that my newly found freedom revealed how little the pdi world actually was, and delighted because I could be a part of this bigger world where people needed to know hope in the Lord.
My husband has recently found a place of worship where he thinks we might finally find fellowship. The pastor spoke last week about having unbelieving friends - that is was a good thing. My husband perked up at those words.
We have not been called to missions, per say, but our hearts are to leave the fragrance of Christ wherever we go. That includes creating friendships with those who have yet to find the Lord. To do this we must be equipped. There is a lot of dark stuff out there in the world, people with problems we have never seen before (the new age witchy-poo beliefs are alive and thriving in our area). The trenches are filled with hurting, deceived, and dying souls who really need to hear the gospel as it was first preached.
We also need grace-filled fellowships where we can bring the lost to hear the Good News. Are we equipped to do this? I’ve seen some pretty demonic activity around us, but don’t know how to deal with it if I have to. Who is going to show me?
Being “in” the world is a pretty serious reality these days. Lord help equip the saints! We need churches who aren’t ingrown. We need believers to stop preaching the Gospel to themselves alone, and learn how to live it OUT THERE! In order for this to happen, leaders have to be the pointmen, showing us the way. They have to equip the saints for ministry instead of treating them like little children.
Wish us well, friends, as my husband continues forward with this new fellowship. We have waited so long to find a place that we would fit in to.
February 11th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Canary,
Will be praying for you and your husband as you seek the Lord on this fellowship! Praying you both will receive clear direction, wisdom from God. I’m excited for you at the prospect! We’ve found an outwardly focused place of worship and it is sweet, albeit not so tidy, but that is SO refreshing!
February 11th, 2010 at 11:08 pm
Thanks for your prayers, Hope. I have to admit to some trepidation when it comes time for me to follow my husband into my first church “meeting” in some years. He is going ahead of the family to be sure the place is suited for us. I believe it has a system of Elders, so the church is self-governing, not just pastor-led.
I find that fears are cropping up as I think about stepping out into this new arena. The issue of trust is such a big thing. Maybe I will write a journal about it, call it something like “An Ex-Pharisee’s Return to Church After Spirit-led Rehabilitation”. It will begin something like this: “With palms sweating and heart racing, she braved the lobby of church goers to walk into a sanctuary so like all the ones in her past, hoping she would find the “real thing” this time. Hoping against hope that the people smiling at her, the ones reaching out hands of greeting, were truly glad to see her. This wasn’t one of those love bombs, was it?”
Heck, I’m probably not the only one here who has been scared spitless to enter the traditional church again. I’d love to hear from someone who faced this Goliath and overcame his/her fears.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Greg wrote: “So, back to the original question on the first issue of PDI Magazine: ‘Are you a pioneer or a settler?’ They would have to answer, ‘We’re settlers because it’s a lot safer than pioneering.’ ”
I remember that issue clearly, and I also remember the astonishing talk Mahaney gave at the men’s retreat in Baltimore, in early 1997. He looked at the historical example of the exiled Jews settling down in Babylon for 70 years – building homes, etc. – and then told us to do likewise. I was absolutely astonished, and realized later that I had heard Mahaney announce the end of Larry Tomczak’s “pioneering” PDI.
Mahaney grew up in Montgomery County, MD, and has always lived in Montgomery County, MD not 20 miles from where he grew up. He never moved to start a church plant, never held an adult job that was not in church leadership, and never — to my knowledge — went on a short-term missions trip of any kind. Mahaney has not a pioneering bone in his body, but is the ultimate “settler.”
In his talk, Mahaney never looked 70 years ahead to the time of the return to Jerusalem. So many Jews had made themselves comfortable and properous by settling down in Babylon, that they were able to give lots of money and goods to the ones returning to Jerusalem, but didn’t go themselves. It was only a small remnant of faithful ones who returned to Judah — the rest of the Jews were assimilated into Babylon, and lost to history. What lesson should we have drawn from that?
February 12th, 2010 at 4:10 am
Hey ya’ll,
I am an evangelist at heart and love what’s being said here.
I opened up the first page of Piper’s book on missions, Let the Nations Be Glad. The first line of the book is, “Missions is not the ultimate goal of the church. Worship is. Missions exists because worship doesn’t. Worship is ultimate, not missions, because God is ultimate, not man.” Dr. Dennis Johnson, from Westminster Seminary California also argues that nurturing the believer is the ultimate goal of the church because it too is man-centered. So, he argued for a worship-centered church that promotes worship by supporting missions and nurturing of members, for the furthering of worship.
I was really struck by that. I think that it is important to give our money to individuals/people/organizations that believe in investing in things that will eventually bring worship to our God.
Years back, I became a supporter of Gospel for Asia (this isn’t a plug). I really liked them because they supported local missionaries to plant churches in seriously unreached places. They took local believers and trained them for 3 years in a bible college, and then sent them back to the places that they lived with the intention of planting local churches. I have seen a lot of fruit with this. Granted, for us who lean more towards Calvinism/Compatibilism, K.P. Yohannan is a modified Calvinist who denies Limited Atonement, but his organization gives 100% of the funds to the mission field. The staff raises their own support, including K.P. This is as of 4 years ago. I am not sure now, but I don’t know why it would change. Pray and consider it as well.
May God grant us wisdom,
Chad
February 12th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Canary,
We had a good solid church for many years before our years in SG, so we knew they exist. I didn’t fear going in the door so much as becoming entwined in the community too quickly.We have taken our time building relationships and I think that was a good thing. Trust should not be instant. As you know you can’t see everything right away or we likely wouldn’t have been sucked into SG for so long. But do trust what the Lord has taught you about freedom in this desert. You won’t be satisfied again without it. Our freedom is in Him not in any building we enter. You have learned about the areas you need to have discernment in. You know what are the “hills to die on,” and what are not. You have been equipped by God in the the desert.
The greatest challenge has been maintaining the balance between legitimate caution in trusting/fearing man more than I ought, and being sinfully suspicious. These fears are irrational and misplaced and can harm those faithfully leading. Love hopes the best, and that is what I have to keep coming back to. Hope comes from love and love never fails. Praying for you sister.
February 12th, 2010 at 11:37 am
Jim -
re: Acts29 & SGM – Recently I learned of 2 new Acts29 churches in an area that SGM wanted to plant/adopt churches. The new Acts29 were initially interested in joining SGM (I knew both of the pastors while I was on staff with an SGc). It will be interesting to see if SG plants or adopts in this area now.
All -
There are a couple of Piper sermons from Celebration available at DG. I find them worth listening to. Also, if you are interested in Acts29/Driscoll you can get a free download of one of his books at ChristianAudio. This is a worthwhile listen if you want to hear MD, straight from the horse’s mouth (he is the reader in this audio).
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
February 12th, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Keepinstep,
I left in ‘96. Did C.J. actually use a period of judgement as a model for what SGM should be doing? How in the world did he justify that biblically, and how could everyone sit there without objecting? By the time Nehemiah and Ezra brought the exiles back, they had completely lost their purpose, consecration, and even the Word itself. Isn’t it ironic that PDI was once part of the Restoration movement and taught heavily on restoration period historical and prophetic books? Now they have marched steadily back to Babylon.
While the Kellers were in Manila, a group of “Mission Heads” at CLC were having an ongoing missions prayer meeting that eventually resulted in the local International Ministry. We thought that C.J. could use some missions experience. So, we offered to send him, at our expense, on a missions trip to anywhere in the world. He declined.
Around that time, Charles Simpson spoke at Celebration about going to the nations, specifically unreached people groups. In his comments after his message, C.J, redirected that to reaching local internationals (which is great, but not what was said). Many leaders have approached SGM about their call and responsibility to reach the nations, and they have consistently said that was “not their gift or calling” Regardless of what scripture says and how often the Body of Christ urges them to obey, they simply do not want to do it.
So, how do we respond to this other than decrying SGM’s lack of heart for the nations? I had a dream once where I saw the crowd at Sunday worship, and God was sending them all over the world. I was distressed due to that contrast with what was going on. If felt God assure me that He would get His way. The missionaries in SGM were a gift to C.J. and that if he did not send them, then God would give them to someone else would.
February 12th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Love hopes the best, and that is what I have to keep coming back to. Hope comes from love and love never fails.
Hope, that is the reminder I needed. Thank you so very much. Also, as FSGP reflected, a healthy dose of suspicion is good, but I will be careful to balance that with love. Maybe it isn’t even suspicion as much as not giving away my trust to quickly, as you pointed out. Putting my mind on love instead of fear has given me courage to step out. I’ll let you know how it goes.
By the way, have you put your story on this blog? If so, can you direct me to it? Thanks.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
Canary, You’re welcome so very much! You have no idea how much you’ve helped me even though I only randomly chime in. You are a sweet soul. I haven’t written a “whole” story anywhere. I wrote a bit in the middle of the night once Sept 21, 2009 4:27, on Moving On. We came from a more moderate SG church and did not experience the abuses that many have. Actually I truly believe the experiences you all went through protected our family from having to endure a longer time in the box. Your warnings and wisdom meant we were prepared. We didn’t need much convincing, as so many concerns here resonated with us and had weighed on us for a long time. I’ve used the term boxed a lot lately to describe our experience at SG. We were boxed and surrendered our freedom of thought. I thought I was being an obedient, submissive Christian but actually bought into much legalistic thought. It’s shocking to see looking back, how easily we surrendered the freedom we had experienced in the church prior to our time in SG, but grateful that we also had that reference point. We awakened from the dream realizing we were completely cut-off from the rest of the body of Christ and had lost our mission. Out of this great awakening came a greater desire to know my one and only King and to be led only by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be boxed, and yet He lives in us, the mystery revealed to the saints: Christ in you the Hope of glory. Col 1:27
I’ll share more with you offline. I emailed Jim and asked him to send my email address to you.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
Thank you, Hope. I’d love to connect off-line.
February 12th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Greg,
I remember those regular missions prayer meetings happening, even though I think I only went once. I don’t know where the term “missionheads” started, but I definitely remember people calling your prayer group by that name. I hope they did not mean that sarcastically
February 12th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Jim said above “Acts 29’s 10 year goal is 1000 new plants. What’s sgm’s 10 year goal?”
I think SGM’s 10 year goal is to stay in business.
February 12th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
CD -
Ouch. (But I agree with you)
Former SG Pastor
February 12th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Hi Jim,
It’s been a long while since I visited here and said hello. I see that much is still afoot and far too much that must be heart-breaking to our good and gracious Lord.
I think of and pray for you regularly.
Keep looking up!
February 12th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
I listened to Piper’s message at Celebration on 6/1/1999 called “Hallowed By Thy Name”. This is vintage JP, IMO. Near the end at about an hour and 8.5 minutes Piper urges:
“If PDI loves worship because they love God, CJ, you must you must [sic] love world evangelization”.
This could form the basis of any provocative question to put to the panel at T4G in April. CJ and JP will probably share the stage once or twice. A question that will never be asked is, “CJ, as head of SGM, the successor to PDI, what have you done regarding John Piper’s imperative to love world evangelization?”
Wondering,
Former SG Pastor
February 12th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
Taking Note! Good to hear from you.
FSGP-I think these guys realized long ago that CJ’s gonna do what he thinks is best. I really doubt that ANY of the RBD’s are seriously trying to persuade CJ these days.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Canary,
Excited to hear about your new church adventure, but I understand your trepidation. I’ll be praying for you and your family.
February 13th, 2010 at 11:41 am
Thanks, Gracie!
February 13th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Jim,
Sent you an email yesterday, could you fwd. my email address to Canary?
(the one from the email) Thanks!!
February 13th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Jim,
We know you are very busy and can’t send lots of emails around for us, but pleeeeeaaaassseeee??? Thank you, thank you!
February 13th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Bernice,
Did you share specific concerns with you cgl’s, and were they addressed? If you addressed specific concerns, and the cgl’s were incapable of responding by citing Scripture, that is sad indeed. “Our leaders have chosen them” is not a Biblical defense.
Submitting to leadership is allowing yourself to be persuaded. If there are passages in the books you’ve referenced that you think contradict Scripture, I’d meet with a pastor and say, “I don’t think this is Biblical, could you help me out?” It wouldn’t hurt to reference your conversation with the cgl’s.
See if the pastor has the chops to make a case from Scripture.
February 13th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Bernice -
My experience was that I stayed too long. My wife would say the same thing. We both expected that things in our SGc and with SGM would get better. My wife really believed that intervention by an apostle/bishop would straighten everything out. We both would say that what really happened was that things got worse. Our conclusion is that we should have said less (we didn’t say much) and left sooner.
I would advise someone leaving SG to say little, say it graciously, leave sooner rather than later. Any loose ends will be tied up for you the way SG wants them to be tied up.
Bernice, I’ll pray for you and your family.
Former SG Pastor
February 13th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Jim, thanks for the address…
Bernice,
Praying that the Lord will guide you during this difficult time…
February 14th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Bernice,
FSGP is right. Leave quickly and leave quietly, they will never listen. They can’t and they won’t. You will just feel like you are going crazy.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
February 14th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Ellie, your hugs are so wonderful and sincere.
February 14th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Bernice,
I currently attend a SGC church. I started the book “Worldiness” but, as is often the case, got distracted by life and never finished it. Your last post makes me want to pick it up again. What are your concerns with the book specifically? Is it the general tone or some particular passages?
Chuck
February 15th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Bernice,
My recommendation would be a combination of what Jim and FSGP recommend. I think that if you have a doctrinal concern about a book, the right thing to do is to discuss it with leadership, but this should be done as a matter principle to honor God, not to try to change anyone’s mind. It is best to do this with the person on staff that you have the best relationship with, regardless of who your head is. Try to keep the conversation as friendly and non-confrontational as possible (e.g. “this is what I am thinking about” rather than ” you’re wrong”).
Censorship of dissenting views at the CG level has been going on for a long time, and it is not going to change. The best you can hope for is a pass on your views.
Many years ago, I objected the very premise of the book, “Is There Not a Cause?” by Tosini. Unfortunately I did it at a CG meeting and got rebuked for causing confusion, because as a leader, I disagreed with the CG leader in front of others. I went to a pastor I was close to and explained my concerns. This was not my functional head, who was a bit insecure and controling at the time. Upon re-reading those passages carefully, he actually agreed with me and admitted that C.J. had not read the whole book before recommending it. The leadership eventually made the offending chapters optional reading. A few years later, the author was exposed for a variety of failures, and the book was forever forgotten.
Personally, I took a hit for my stance, but my conscience is clear. I was defending truth about the character of God. I had no personal stake in the matter.
Eventually, I left over more fundamental issues of docutrine, missions, and polity. If you have these types of concerns then, as FSGP recommends, leave sooner rather than later because they are unlikely to change.
February 17th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Canary said above, “Heck, I’m probably not the only one here who has been scared spitless to enter the traditional church again. I’d love to hear from someone who faced this Goliath and overcame his/her fears.”
Scared spitless is a perfect description! Trembling I entered many a churches, weeping (not the good kind) during worship and feeling like my skin was going to crawl off of my body if I didn’t get out of there soon enough during the sermons. I eventually gave up trying for a long time. I felt terribly guilty but at the same time I had this feeling that God would lead me back when He was ready.
Eventually He did but it took many years. I finally started visiting a church that wasn’t “home” but at least I didn’t have to run out of there part way through the service. I would visit for a bit then not, visit for a bit, then not. I kept thinking that the goal of all this was to eventually become part of a church again. But I knew that was wrong. The goal was to love Him and know His love for me. To follow Him, where ever that took me. Finally, one day, when I was standing in the middle of a drugstore, paging through the Oprah magazine of all things, I sensed very strongly that God was releasing me to join a church. Sounds nuts. Sounds silly. But it was summer of ‘06, a little more than 5 years since I left Cov. Fel.
Bit by bit I started to go to homegroups. I got to know people. S-L-O-W-L-Y. Well, slowly for me. I still didn’t officially join but at least I felt a little more comfortable going. That next winter I tapered off for a few months, only going sparadically to church but regularly to homegroup. Then regularly to church and not at all to homegroup. My path wasn’t a straight incline up. But I also want to state that my “not going” was not not of God. It was His gentle path, His gentle leading.
I still hadn’t joined and had decided I never would officially sign on the dotted line ever again. I served a little here and there but didn’t want to make any long lasting commitments as I sometimes travel on the weekends.
A year and a half ago God put me in to a newly formed homegroup. It ended up being one of those “golden seasons” for homegroups that only come along once in a blue moon. I was “scared spitless” and held back a bit (for me) but pretty quickly we all became a very tight group. And though most of them are the ages of my kids, I fell in love with them. Boy was that scary, letting another church group grab a hold of my heart like that. Oh, but Canary, if only you knew these kids, you would love them, too. I’m weeping right now, even thinking about them.
Sometimes there have been times when the teachings in our groups have felt a bit SGM influenced and I’ve had to speak out and give warnings of sorts. Those times have been hard and I’ve gone home and cried, telling God that I don’t want to have to be the one to speak up, to speak out. That I want to just sit quietly. That I don’t want another SGM on my hands. But, I love these friends, these brothers and sisters, too much to remain silent.
Fortunately it hasn’t gone to the bad SGM place and hopefully I am just overly sensitized to it. And the leadership of the church is in the hands of enough people who are NOT on any payroll that it is somewhat safe.
Still, no membership for me.
Then my new church made what I consider to be one of their biggest errors in judgement yet. They asked me to consider becoming a homegroup leader. I told them what an enormous mistake that was, etc. Went to the pastor and confessed my dark secrets. He didn’t bat an eye. I was terrified and wanted to run, remembering all the pain past homegroup leaders have caused to me. I balled to my friends who asked me to consider it, pleading with them to see the wisdom of the “danger” of having me in that position. All the while they told me that the “role” of homegroup leader in our church was no more than simply leading a meeting. After prayer and my manic tears of fear I felt God prompting? Leading? Pushing? Guiding?.. whatever. I think He led me to say yes.
So guess who had to join the church?
I almost wrote you all 6 weeks ago to tell you that I was going to stand up in front of the church and became an official member and to ask for prayer. I was scared. Even when I stood up there with the other new members, I was nearly trembling. Pools of tears formed in my eyes and I had to wipe them away more than once. There I was, Stunned, standing before a congregation, making promises to them! Terror at times. Wondering if I was making a mistake. But I remembered meeting with the pastor ahead of time and our talk. I remember him saying that if a covenant was broken by either party, then the covenant was no longer valid. If they became abusive, I was free to leave. FREE. No guilt. No shame. Freedom. Freedom to go and worship elsewhere. Freedom.
Canary, my friend, I know your path will be different than mine. But I wanted you to know that you are not alone in being scared spitless. And if it takes you a million years to get comfortable or to go into a church— THAT IS OK. He will take you in, in His timing. Trust. Trust His leading and don’t let the condemnation of the devil get ya down.
Many hugs,
Stunned
February 17th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Stunned -
What a wonderful, encouraging post you made 2/17 @ 331! Thanks for taking the time to share. Your words give me hope.
This is a great line: “Boy was that scary, letting another church group grab a hold of my heart like that.” That is the truth; after your heart has been wrenched from your chest, stabbed, and then punted into the air, it is extremely difficult to share it again. Heck, it can be extremely difficult finding your own pulse …
Canary -
Sounds like we are in the same boat. I’ll pray for you in this.
Grace to all,
Former SG Pastor
February 17th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Stunned-Thanks for the hopeful post!
February 17th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Stunned—- Thankyou so much for writing out so genuinely your trepidations in ‘joining’ another church—You testify of hope and redemption —That gives us hope too!
Reading some scriptures today, that like many of you, we’ve read 1000 times…but the significance tonight is so life-giving: Eph 3:19-22** ” So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of Gods Holy people. You are members of Gods family. Together, we are HIS house,built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus Himself. We are carefully joined together in Him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. Through Him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by His Spirit.”
………”where God lives by His Spirit”……
and praying… “May our hearts be flooded with light so that we can understand the confident hope He has given to those He called–we, His holy people who are His rich and glorious inheritance.” Eph 1:18
February 18th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
FSGP, Pam and my dear Canary,
I’m so sorry you are each suffering from a torn heart, ripped open when you’d rather it be whole. I wish none of us ever had to feel that way. But in the midst of this, I am thankful for your encouragement. FSGP, Pam and you, too, Water- I wrote through my tears and wonder, as I often do, if hitting the ’submit’ button was going to be a big mistake. Thank you for letting me know it wasn’t.
February 18th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Stunned,
I know that feeling about hitting “submit”. It is hard to be so vulnerable. Yet, love won out, and you encouraged us with your words. Thank you again. I can still feel the courage your post gave me.
February 19th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
Canary,
Did you email me? Didn’t get it. Hoping we can connect.
Stunned,
Thanks for sharing your journey to FREEDOM. I know your words are bringing encouragement to many!
February 19th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Hope,
I did send you an email with the address that Jim forwarded me. I’ll try again. If you don’t get anything, the address must be wrong. We’ll have to ask our benevolent blog leader to HELP!!
February 19th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
Hope, email sent…:)
February 19th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Canary…you didn’t come through. I checked both my emails and spams, nada. Address must be wrong, can you check w/Jim?
February 20th, 2010 at 12:05 am
Okay, Hope. I’ll check with Jim.