Recently at our church (Christ Central Church) Sky Kline gave an outstanding message regarding the importance of the priesthood of the believer, and how a believer’s immediate and free access to the throne of grace has implications regarding the responsibility and authority of the church. Sky’s message was very helpful in the church’s effort to “renew our mind”, especially as we approach the sobering but wonderful responsibility of putting forward our elders. I hope this message is a tremendous encouragement to the body of Christ and especially for churches who are reconsidering changes in their polity.
The fact that this message is posted here is not necessarily an endorsement of the content of the blogs by Sky or Christ Central Church. It is simply my effort to bless the body of Christ with a teaching about our responsibility as the body of Christ many of us have never heard. I hope it will generate some great dialogue and motivate us to be like the Bereans as we search the Scripture.
Your brother in Christ, Bob Dixon
This video sounds like it will be interesting, and I will listen to it as soon as I get to a computer that has working sound. In the months leading up to our departure from our SGM church (which was in August 2010), these thoughts were often on my mind. I wrote a blog post in response to a sermon, and touched on both the priesthood of believers and submission to spiritual authority, as well as the earthly life and resurrection of Jesus, and our identity in him. You can find it here: http://watchtheshepherd.blogsp.....hrist.html
Can SGM degift pastors? Is not gifts from God and not any man of institution? If so, on what authority they degift people? If SGM degifts people, do they really believe these folks lose their gifting? Why not these folks refer themselves to SGM’ed instead of degifted? SGM’ed is the more appropriate term instead of degifted.
To the SGM leadership (and everyone else, too): let’s please, please not get too comfortable with labeling our detractors as emissaries of the devil. Getting it wrong on this can have severe spiritual consequences—whether we like it or believe it or not, many of our critics may be walking as the Spirit is leading them…perhaps not everyone, but some. To blanket label a group of people, even if they are your detractors or critics, as proceeding from “satanic” motives or engaging in “demonic” actions is reckless.
There are good Christians with legitimate concerns and questions for SGM on these blogs; their love and heart of Christ is evident in their words and confessions and compassion. I would not be so quick to lump them in with demons.
Hey Argo -
Didn’t John Loftness, just this Sunday, call all of us pawns of Satan?
Inthenick,
Yeah…if he didn’t outright say it, I felt it was implied…of course, I could be wrong, but this is how it came across to me. What I mean to say is that it’s fine to feel conviction about one’s “rightness”. But I’d advise caution to everyone who thinks that that conviction gives them the freedom to label those they disagree with as being tools of the devil. It’s not like bloggers are “preaching a different gospel”. If questioning one’s interpretation of doctrine or polity or views on pastoral authority all of a sudden becomes “of the devil” and a rank attack on the Gospel of Christ, then I think that’s a red flag for a chruch org. Anyway, it certainly would be for me.
Oh yeah, 5Years, thanks for the kind words about my post on the previous thread.
I meant to reference John L’s sermon as cited on Brent’s blog as being from Feb. 5. Not last week. Sorry.
Or, I guess this past Sunday is the start of this week, so Feb. 5 would be last week.
Er…Argo confused.
Anyway, I meant from Feb. 5, as cited in Brent’s latest post.
I won’t lose any sleep over it, but in the context of SGM’s “current troubles”, I thought Loftness’ statements were ludicrous, and I take them personally.
Amazing that “going to your brother” doesn’t apply to “bloggers” who are very easy to reach.
Personally, I’d like to see John Loftness start by going to ExCLCer and make things right there. Then he can begin to think of getting up to stand before a crowd to speak. At least, think about it.
The flock at JL’s church seems to be of lessor concern to him than his dear friend. He seems to want to make an easy path for his friend. It would be nice if someone had made an easy path for all the SGMed pastors and members.
Typical circling of the wagons by Loftness and the rest of these “men of god”. I would not want to be them when they stand before the Lord.
This IS NOT going to end well in SGM. They will fight for CJ to the death. There will be churches that leave SGM as well as individual members.
Remember, SGM believes that you need to be a ” happy follower”. This will apply to churches as well. For those who are waiting foe some grand rescue, … It’s not gonna happen.
Of all the SGM hogwash I have read and heard over the past several years this message by JL is right up there with the worst of The Dave and Mickey C. What sycophantic, arrogant drivel! And to try to cloak that thinly veiled crud in Paul’s words.
It grieves me to know that there are still so many brothers and sisters sitting in SGM pews being fed stuff like this rather than the Gospel. I think those that are going to leave have done so for the most part, but I hope and pray for each additional one that flees. Hopefully the AoR report will cause at least some additional exodus – maybe enough to push a few SGM churches that have already driven away much of their flock to teeter over the edge.
So I agree with you Jim – not going to lose any sleep, since it is about par for the course, but still sickening.
To those SGM members still hanging in there … A few thoughts …
Why do you stay?
CJ Mahaney has defiled his responsibilities as a leader of God’s people. He is unrepentive and outright offensive to the very words of our Savior.
The leadership of SGM has spit in the face of scriptures in how CJ Mahaney should have been lovingly restored. They find NO FAULT with a man who has left a path of relational destruction behind him for decades. None whatsoever.
Your pastors have supported Mahaney and the SGM board by allowing this circus to continue. Their fear of man versus what should be the Fear of the Lord should cause you great concern. YOUR PASTOR is part of the problem.
Do you stay because of family? Friends? The worship? Don’t you know that YOU, by staying, are yourself supporting all of these ungodly actions?
The Lord Jesus is judging SGM. Do not be mistaken. These circus clowns are going to have to give an accounting of their actions … SO WILL YOU!
Start thinking about that. YOU are supporting them! How will you explain that to the Lord when you see Him face to face?
Well, Argo -
My first comment to Mr. Loftness is that Satan ALSO uses people who selfrighteously ascertain that their view of things is always right.
JIm – AoR has already admonished SGM and those guys for not following the “Go” part of that scripture. Mr. Loftness obviously has not learned that lesson yet.
Nicky-boy,
I missed where AOR admonished SGM. Would you please point us to that?
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....oposal.pdf
Page 13 of 20. Recommendation #1: GO and be reconciled.
SGM still hasnt done it and are still ignoring scripture.
Oooops, that didn’t come out well.
Go to the SGM blog and see Harvey’s August 25 explanation of the AoR report and what their recommendations are. On page 13 of that pdf AoR says SGM has not done the GO part of go and be reconciled. They state that being willing to deal is not the same as actually dealing with people that claim you sinned against them.
But then this is the problem. SGM doesn’t think they sinned. John really really really believes this is all slander and gossip. It’s like a guy perishing from thirst because he is convinced his canteen is empty. He is so convinced he wont even look at other possibilities. ”Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up!”
The John Loftness letter really sent me for a loop for awhile—
SO revealing……….SO nauseating…and really, he sounds as if he himself is grasping at straws to communicate. Basically, a velied call to arms to defend Mahaney, whom he is referring to as ‘the minister of the Gospel’.—
As inthe Nick points out, this is also in light of the fact that meanwhile, AOR has officially stated that SGM has not done the GO part of go and be reconciled!!!!!! AoR has communicated to SGM that being willing to deal is not the same as ACTUALLY dealing WITH people that claim you sinned against them.”
So…..Harvey and Mahaney and Loftness and Ricucci and Emerson and Purswell and all of Mahaneys son-in-laws have not recognized a category of sin on their parts, but believe the mauled and wounded they have left behind are “slanderous”—same ‘ol same ‘ol.
Do they realize what utter fools they would be seen as in a court of law? Do they realize they would not get by with spinning answers? Do they realize there would be consequences to their actions? They have come to believe their own deceptions.
Jim and Bob D,
Thankyou for the opportunity to listen to S Kline teaching on “The Authority of The Church”—I was finally able to sit down and listen this afternoon. I believe this is sound foundational teaching –The “Church’ IS Believers/the Body of Christ…
A few points which stood out for me:
*Remembering at Sauls (Paul) conversion, the Risen Jesus appeared to him saying “Why are you persecuting Me?” –(Saul had been persecuting the ‘church’/Believers —and Jesus proclaimed that was the SAME as persecuting Him.) –Kline emphasizes “the inseparable connection between Christ and His Body” — So important— EACH Blood bought redeemed Believer is valuable —because we are in Him and He is in us —UNseparable!
*Both old and new testaments point to a mystery of profound importance:
Acts 2:4 (on the day of Pentecost) EVERY BELIEVER gathered in the upper room were filled with the Holy Spirit — Peter proclaims this as fulfillment of the prophet Joel 2:22- God pouring out His Spirit upon ALL flesh
*Now, every Believer IS the Redeemed Priest Believers, the truth of the “Priesthood of Believers” begins in Hebrews 10:19……..
Every Believer carries a RESPONSIBILITY TO PRAY …We are clothed in the garment of His Righteousness — each of us come to His Throne of Grace and are able to hear Him and be led by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
* As the ‘church’/Body of Believers —remembering God speaks through the BODY–
*(Kline):”The Priesthood of Believers should be taken seriously — to be a PRAYING church; individuals seeking God”
*(Kline): “There is no longer a Levitical priesthood. The relationship between God and Gods people changed at Pentecost.”
We see that what has transpired within almost 3 decades of Sovereign Grace Ministries, is the evolving of a church polity which has eroded the position of EVERY Believer as outlined in Hebrews 10: 11-22.
SGM leadership has ruled with a counterfeit position as “Levitical priests” placing themselves “standing in the very stead of God” in ALL matters–Bible truths and doctrine, counseling, realtionships etc etc. This has been accomplished by the indoctrinational focus of sin, sin, sin….which causes works, works, works…which diminshes the walk of FAITH.
In turn, this usurps the Holy Spirit, who is the One who causes us to be changed…. from glory to glory… into the image of CHRIST JESUS.
We can take the reponsibility to pray and be engaged (which Kline spoke about)…or defer to leaders to do the praying and thinking and engagement for us. –Perhaps this points to the ‘why’ in the Book of Revelations, when the Spirit of the Lord speaks a word to the 7 churches, crying out “He who has an ear let him HEAR what the SPIRIT says to the churches.” — Its a choice and decisionfor every Believer.
More than ever, I believe we are living in a time and era when we MUST hear and know and obey the Voice of the Lord — above any others —PRAYING – lest we become deceived, little by little— and forget that we ‘stand as the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus’ and that the ‘same spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwells in us.’ We cannot be warriors if we are neutered and unengaged.
Waters:
An outstanding and succinct description of what the church is, or should be. We the believers have to stop being force fed the kool aid being offered by the professional ecclesiastics and begin being the priesthood of believers connected directly to Christ.
As to the JL letter, he hasn’t a clue about the Body of Christ. Scripturally speaking we ALL are ministers of the Gospel. It is not the exclusive function of one man set up on a marble pedestal, or even of a few men designated as “clergy” who separate themselves from the Body and pretend to stand between God and the Church.
Did anyone notice that CLC is doing a six-week series on the subject of “How Church Works”?
http://www.covlife.org/howchurchworks/
B.R.C.,
Just want to be clear that while I believe scripture definitely brings Believers into the position of the ‘Priesthood of Believers’ — each one taking the responsibility in seeking God and hearing His direction and leading in our lives…..I also am thankful for every gift of service the Lord has specifically given to His own. Teachers and pastors are gifted in bringing the Word of God to us…teaching and equipping for every day life. The evangelist may be called to the homeless shelter streets—or the streets of Calcutta…..A broader picture of the Body of Christ—each one valuable and needed.
I believe SGM has not truly seen EACH member as truly VALUABLE. Their polity of pedestaled pastors and leaders place a hierarchial dividing line between them and laymen. The results have been mass maulings and blindness to gross and obvious sins which harm Gods people (see all “My Story” on Refuge and the stories on Survivors — even child molesters and perversions are not recognized by SGM leadership and instead they have placed responsibility of ‘sin’ upon the victims).
I’m reminded once again, our eyes are to be fixed on Jesus —the author and finisher of our faith. To be obsessively focused on sin is an SGM stronghold, bringing in the spirit of the law and works.
When the Disciples asked Jesus “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered: “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” (John 6:29)
—A ‘little’ answer with the invitation for abundant life in all areas of our lives!
Thus we see, as you stated above in regards to J Loftness—he exemplifies the leadership of SGM’s cluelessness in regards to the value of each Blood bought redeemed child of God. (And that value includes those who are the’watchmen on the walls’– warning and alarming the Body of Christ of DANGER!)
We heard another very good message today at our new church about The Authority of Leaders http://vimeo.com/37080996 Last week the message was on The Authority of the Church http://vimeo.com/36759031
My intention in sharing these messages is not to suggest this is the only way a church should set up their government or polity. It is simply to inspire and encourage others in the body of Christ by giving them a glimpse into how this small band of believers is going about the process of recognizing the “varieties of gifts” among them. It has been a wonderfully refreshing and exciting experience to share this journey with my brothers and sisters, and to see the life and grace of Christ manifested as “each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.”
Good message from CLC yesterday titled The Good Shepherd, about authority in the church. It’s part 2 of a 6 part series called How Church Works. Seemed very encouraging.
Contrast the Sky Line’s with Jared’s message on 2/19/12. “Remember the leaders” is the theme for Ordaining a Pastor. It seems like the sense of SGM pastors is that they do not believe in admitting anyone before mid-teens into the church (as beilevers) but will ordain reguralry those who are in the mid 20′s. I wonder how this fulfils 1Tim 3 where pauls specifically states that the elders not be new converts, “ He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.” Would these young folks have a proven track record of managing their own household? Why would they not have the same restraint in ordaining pastors as they do in baptising young men and women?
Anonimous -
I think some (many?) of the pastors failed simple logic. They seem to want to dictate when God can redeem
a person? My understanding is that Timothy was not the norm, but the “possible exception” that comes along. They are literalist in some applications, but not in in others. Whatever suits the momentary direction of leadership is what is taught. Doctrine of the spastic, maybe?
Please pray and take action as Father God leads you!
From Breaking Christian News: Urgent Prayer & Action: Final Verdict for Pastor Youcef… Death
(Iran)-According to a FOXNews report today, the final verdict has been handed down on Christian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani’s fate-death.
As Youcef’s supporters all around the world feared, the Iranian trial court has decided that he will be executed on the charges that he left Islam to convert to Christianity.
Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani’s family and supporters are asking for urgent prayer by Believers worldwide, on his behalf, and for people to contact their legislators to ask for intervention.
Follow the link for more information:
http://www.breakingchristianne.....ml?ID=9857
http://www.breakingchristiannews.com
I will get a lot of grief for this but here it goes….
Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold.”
–Leo Tolstoy
Oh Fred. I was just thinking about Pastor Youcef yesterday. PRAYING!!!!
Waters #23:
I totally agree. THere is no vertical strata in the church. We are all on the same plain and should be working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit in response to Jesus the head of the body. Each individual’s function is just as important as the next person’s function.
It’s amazing how some men try to warp things for their own self-centered purposes and then claim it’s the “will of God”.
I have some questions…preferably for a current SGM member or leader who is in agreement with the Board’s decision to retain CJ Mahaney as president of the Organization, and with their conclusions about his “non-disqualifying” character issues. This is a serious question, and I’m looking for an honest answer:
What does the leadership of SGM think about those who have left SGM because they do not agree with the Board’s decision; they do not agree that CJ’s sins are not disqualifying; they do not agree that to read Brent Detwiler’s documents and the blogs are in fact gossip and slander; and furthermore, have doctrinal differences with SGM concerning the authority of SGM’s leadership (paid staff pastors and the Board)?
Do they feel that the church member who leaves may “go with God”, so to speak, and that the decision to leave is essentially a difference of opinion and has no significant impact on that person’s spiritual state provided that there is no bitterness, hatred, or other obvious sinful manifestations; or do they feel that that member is in fact rebelling against God and His true will for that person?
Would they consider that member, should they not return to SGM or a doctrinally similar church at any point in their lives, to be in persistent rebellion against God, or would they feel that that member simply has a different understanding, and can still be fruitful and accepted servants of Christ in the world?
B.R.C.
Yes, as you stated: “We should be working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit
in response to Jesus the head of the Body.” — We certainly see evidences world-wide of God shaking and cleansing and purging His own, the church.
Fred #28
Have been praying for Youcef N since you posted the prayer alert. This trial has been brought to light— where is the media outrage?? We Believers must pray……
In light of the persecution of Christians in the Mid-East and the foothold of unGodliness in our own nation, I encourage you all to go to Youtube and listen to one of David Wilkersons last sermons 2009. The sobering reality we must hear — and the importance of each Believer seeking and obeying God.
Argo,
Here is a link to a message given by M.C. at KWCC following the period where he was tasked to evaluate the church and its leadership. I pass this along without commentary so as not to introduce bias. While it does not specifically address the CJ issues (they were just cropping up publically when this was given in late July), it does directly address the issue of those members who chose to leave because of serious differences.
http://www.kingswayaudio.com/?p=490
StvMac,
Thank you for that link. I will give it a listen.
Argo
Well, either Mr. MC knows very little about scripture or he makes a habit of twisting it into unrecognizable shapes.
Mr. Clifton,
After 20+ years in ministry I think it is a safe bet that it is the latter. I hope no one thought I was pimping for MC by posting this link. It was a response to Argo’s question of “what do current SGM leaders think”.
When I heard this message I was really glad I did not wait around from Easter to late July thinking that something profound and game changing was going to come out of the “process”.
Brent’s post of several month’s ago about how MC very deliberately twisted the scriptures is very enlightening.
BR Clifton said, “THere is no vertical strata in the church. We are all on the same plain and should be working together under the leadership of the Holy Spirit in response to Jesus the head of the body. Each individual’s function is just as important as the next person’s function.”
Brother, I completely agree.
I’m not reading nor writing as much as I did in the past … probably because I don’t really care any more. I’ve left my SGM church and I’m actually having my socks blessed off in a great independant Baptist church!
i wonder if this is the master plan of Cj and the Board. Just wear everyone down!
“A Snowball’s Chance” ?
HowDee YaAll,
“…I wonder if this is the ‘master plan’ of Cj and the Board:
…”Just wear everyone down!”
hmmm…
…Not a snowball’s chance in _____ .
-grin-
hahahahahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
___
‘A Snowball’s Chance’ ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ata_player
Speaking of the Church, how it works, etc., did anyone happen to see what the theme is for this year’s final NEXT conference to be led by Mahaney and Kauflin?
” This year’s theme is the role of the church, and what it means for each member to play his or her part in the church.”
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....Began.aspx
Very interesting speaker/seminar line-up…to say the least.