Oct
10
UPDATE 10/10/2010: At 650+ comments, the “KingsWay Way” thread is now closed, as even at 50 comments per page it is becoming increasingly difficult to load for some and even more difficult to publish a comment as timeout errors are now occurring.
PLEASE POST ALL FUTURE KINGSWAY COMMENTS (in this thread) HERE AT THIS “KingsWay Way 2″ post. The older “KingsWay Way” is still available in read-only status here, or easily found using the CHURCHES tab above (below the SGM Refuge banner)
Thanks,
–pk
KingsWay,
Reading Hebrews this weekend and noticed the fight of faith for justice:
Hebrews 11: 32-33— “…And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and the prophets– who through faith
conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions”
——-Here in the Faith “Hall of Fame” along with the more obvious miraculous outcomes of their faith, is noted the act of enforcing justice!
How could justice not be crucial to walking with Christ? The very foundation fo a Holy God is comprised of Righteousness and Justice: PS89:14– “Righteousness and Justice are the foundations of Your Throne.”
Truth and justice anre knitted together—truth produces justice.
God IS truth. John 15:26–”When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me”.
Romans 1:18 states “men of unrighteousness SUPPRESS the truth.” Therein, is one of the ways we must battle. Be encouraged, as you stand in your convictions of truth–whether events, actions, polity, character…you are bringing truth to light.
Praying for you Hebrews 13: 20–
“Now may the God of peace
who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus,
the great shepherd of the sheep,
by the blood of the eternal covenant,
equip YOU with everthing good that you may do His will,
working in you that which is pleasing in His sight,
through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
KingsWay Band of Brothers and Sisters, I pray God is strengthening you and continuing to equip you as you navigate the SGM dance of suppressing or twisting truth. I pray the light of Christ will overtake any shifting shadows as SGM employs Peacemaker mediations to “resolve issues.” And that Jesus, “the great Shepherd of the sheep” will manifestedly care for and hold each one of you.
KingsWay,
Have you read the quote PK lists from David Henke, in the ‘Random Quote’ margin?
The descriptions are a “fit” for Sovereing Grace Ministries:
“The first sign of an abusive group is that it is authoritarian. When it comes right down to it,control is greater importance than personal spiritual welfare. Leaders in an authoritarian system are not teachable. The attitude, like that of the Pharisees, is that they are the teachers and rulers of Gods people, not their servants. They may say they are teachable, but then set up rules which you must follow to approach them. THEN THEY INTERPRET THOSE RULES TO RULE YOU OUT OF ORDER. The former members of one particular group described to the author how their leader used this method to avoid accountability. He kept pointing out their “heart is not right” in the way they brought issues to him.”
Sound familiar???? When it is not just A leader controling in this manner but an entire denomination (ya know, the ‘Family of Churches’ known as CJ’s “Happiest Place on Earth”–Sovereign Grace Ministries) — then there are greater confrontations.
You are fighting the leaven of religousness (which chokes out life),
Praying for you, that you will:
S T A N D, therefore, having fastened on the belt of Truth. Stand.
Being strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
—————————-Eph 6:14, 10
Has the meeting with Promise Keepers representatives happened already?
Defended, The mediations were scheduled to begin last weekend. The posters from KingsWay have been silent. Assuming they are abiding by the non-communication agreement Peacemakers requires. Perhaps at some point we’ll ‘hear’ ……
It will be interesting to hear what Peacemakers has to say about all of this and what their recommendation is.
I wonder if they will think it is proper (like SGM seems to be saying) for a pastor who withheld the truth for 10 years (essentially lying) to remain as Sr. Pastor of Kingsway. Maybe SGM Leadership is hoping Peacemakers won’t make IMO the obvious conclusion that Gene Emerson’s actions have disqualified him from being a pastor.
Of course didn’t someone say the focus of the Peacemakers coming was to address the “unforgiveness” the offended party had toward this Sr. Pastor vs. Gene Emerson’s sin? Hopefully Peacemakers will look at the entire situation and do the right thing. Lets hope all the money SGM gives Peacemakers doesn’t cloud Peacemakers from doing the right thing.
To my Sisters in Christ at KingsWay, who see, and are battling the leaven in SGM:
You were on my heart when I attended a Womens Worship Night this week in our area.
Kari Jobe led worship — the presence and annointing of the Lord was… a beauty…
So refreshing and encouraging. Several women, young, ‘old’, single and married gave words of encouragement, exhortation, and words of knowledge. They were not “caregroup leaders wives”…but women who have been encouraged in their spiritual giftings to bring edification to the Body. The main theme of the night was to “Rest in the Arms of the Father God” — and recognizing that that rest is purposeful! —but He so desires to hold us and remind us of His love (and in the midst of a storm, we know His steadfast love and strength assures our hearts and calms our fears and emotions).
I am writing out the words to one of the songs of worship (which Kari J also wrote) —
I pray these words will sing over you, and minister to you as you stand in Whose you are
“You’re My Beloved, You’re My Bride,
To sing over you is My delight,
Come away with Me, My love…..
Under My mercy, come and wait
Til we are standing face to face
I see no stain on you, My child…..
You’re beautiful to Me….So beautiful to Me…..
I sing over you My song of peace.
Cast all your care down at My feet,
Come and find your rest in Me…………..
I’ll breathe My life inside of you,
I’ll bear you up on eagles wings
And hide you in the shadow of My strength..
I’ll take you to My quiet waters
I’ll restore your soul
Come…rest in Me and be made whole
You’re My beloved, you’re My Bride,
To sing over you is My delight,
Come away with Me, My love…..”
Peace be with all of you who are in Christ (IPeter 5:14)
– Waters
Steve 240,
Indeed, many will be watching for the Peacemakers conclusions in this mediations process.
Correct, that (of course) the ones bringing leaderships sin to light will now go under the microscope to search for any sandspeck of unforgivness or bitterness. The Peacemakers process requires all parties to search their hearts for unforgivness etc etc. Foundationally, this is a right practice; however in the hands of twisted SGM leadership, it is used for their own duplicitous benefit. In the letter sent to the congregation, GE is cavalier: “….we SIMPLY need help resoving ISSUES”. Amazing. Leadership does not term their own (proven) lies, slander, coverups, and manipulative control of the Brethren as s – i – n.
The Lord detests differing weights,
and dishonest scales do not please Him.” Prov 20:23
“The Lord detests differing weights,
and dishonest scales do not please Him.” Prov 20:23
Amen! It’s been a long time since I last read that verse, but it’s so true.
I’ve been encouraged over the last year or so as I’ve watched God say “Enough is enough!” in a variety of situations. Thank you, Lord!
Kindred, we too are encouraged to watch many situations where it is obvious God is saying “enough is enough!” —For eyes to see and ears to hear– He is then bringing about redemption and restoration…..yes, thankyou, thankyou, Lord!
*****************************************************************
Interesting that the symbol of Justice is the picture of a weighing balance.
NASB of Prov 20:23:
“Differing weights are an ABOMINATION to the Lord,
And a false scale is not good.”
abomination– great hatred and disgust; loathing
Since Peacemakers creator, Ken Sande, is an attorney – one who is degreed and practices Law, we hope Peacemakers, as a Christian entity, do abide by Gods
sovereign law of Prov 20:23
.
A scale levied and weighed in a false or ‘loaded’ action, would be an abomination to the Lord. This would be dishonesty and a pretense to what is really true.
Pretense is a false claim…….which is pretending……which is the defintion of hypocrisy
Luke 12:2–
“…He began saying to His disciples first of all, ‘Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees,
which is HYPOCRISY.”
When my children were small, we often went ‘exploring’ in the neighborhood. One house gate posted a “Beware of Dog” sign. Upon nearing the house, the sounds of snarling,growling and barking caused us to ‘beware’ –we slowed our pace…and mommymode kicked in— I was both on the defense and offense…because of danger.
Saints, when Jesus warns us to beware, and then describes exactly what to be beware of–
we must take note! Hypocrisy is dangerous because it is a LIE!!!! God is not the Father of lies. He is all Truth. He weighs and builds on Truth. He doesnot twist words or cause smokescreens to produce differing weights.
Leaven reproduces after itself and expands and multiplies. Danger Danger Danger
Just after Jesus issues the above warning, He then proclaims:
Luke 12:2-3
“But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light,
and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon
the housetops.”
As the days go by without any word from or about Kingsway, my concern for my dear brothers and sisters there grows. I am increasingly concerned for their welfare and the spiritual attack against them. From my own experience with SGM, I know how the leaders take truth and twist it. Also I have seen these very leaders use the congregants desire to please and glorify God as a tool or weapon against them. We know that the deception operating within SGM is very strong and can create confusion within those who are truly trying to have pure hearts before God and trying to please Him. The very fact that there is such secrecy over these meetings is a RED flag with many alarms going off!!
Another concern that I have is the possibility that Gene Emerson has called in Peacemakers as a way of getting his name off the blogs and shutting them down. Each person participating has signed a statement declaring that they will not devulge any information concerning the meetings. What better way to get this off the blog!!
Also, Ken Sande has previously stated that he could not be unbiased in his dealing with SGM/Covenant Life and Noel’s case. Why would his dealings with Kingsway be in a different category?
Yes, many of us are just waiting – trying to be patient. Many families have left and many more have one foot out the door. Some of us are looking at other churches in this interim time but putting off final decision until after we hear something. I have great respect and admiration for the Band of Brothers so I am “hanging in there” partly in support of them. It is so complicated…. there are the sins of the leadership, sins of other people, and my own sins coming to the surface now. I am trying hard to sort through all of the messy entanglements in my mind: what things should I repent and make amends for, what things should I forgive, what can I make better and what should I just shake the dust off of my shoes and walk away from. All this is jumbled with my emotions. If you are praying for us at KingsWay please pray for the gift of discernment – that we would really hear God’s voice in all of this and heed His direction. My hope is that when these negotiations are over with, that we will be given some feedback that will help us in our decision-making. I won’t hold my breath, but that is what I am hoping. And that if we are given any information, that it will be the Truth, not enclosed in secrecy, lies nor half-truths. So we wait…….
Fred,
I (and probably many others) share your concerns for our Brothers and Sisters at KingsWay. Evidently, you have experienced what they are now going through — so important your testimony: ”I have seen THESE VERY LEADERS use the congregants desire to please and glorify God as a tool or weapon against them. ….the deception operating in SGM is very strong and can create CONFUSION within those who are truly trying to have pure hearts before God and trying to please Him.”
We share the burden and trust Holy Spirit to lead us on HOW to intercede for them, since they have been muzzled.
Peacemakers and SGM cannot trump the power of the Holy Spirit. The Lord causes darkness (lies,deceptions,coverups) to be shattered by His Light — and He makes a way for His Light of Truth to unveil the suppressions of truth. There is NOTHING covered up that will not be revealed (Luke 12:2). Peacemakers is also “in the spotlight” —God is sifting and purging His people, and none of us are exempt.
Children and teens are watching the upheaval at KingsWay (children are quite observant and keen on the bottom-line of circumstances) They will remember what is occurring — will they be warriors for Gods Truth or SGM eunuchs? They will remember the back-stabbing and grievous unGodly actions perpetrated by GE and SGM leadership against a Godly man and his family. They are watching the story progress. They need our prayers. SGM carries responsibility for ‘representing’ Christ in all their manipulations and duplicity during the Peacemakers trial, before the eyes and hearts of our young ones.
“RED flag with many alarms going off” — Fred, this describes the trumpet sound for our KingsWay Brethren. – KingsWay Band of Brothers and Sisters, keep the helmet of salvation upon your head–salvation bought by the life-giving Blood of Christ, that you will not give in to or begin to believe and concede to deceptions and twistings of truth.
Your King of Glory is the Lord, Mighty in battle —- on your behalf
Eyes Opening– we must have been writing at the same time….
We hear your heart and hearts cry. We too have walked this disheartening path.
Know that as you have asked for prayer for discernment— the Saints are specifically praying for you, and our Band of Brothers and Sisters.
Oh Lord, clearly, as in the light of day, stir Your discernment to Eyes Opening and all those who are battling the leaven of Pharisees. Cause them to take courage and strengthen them, …mentally, emotionally and spiritually, in the unsurpassing power of Your might. Jesus, YOU are their Shepherd…..lead them by Your Hand…..give them the Living Water of Your Word to nourish their spirit and soul. Clear debris, Lord, and lead them as they walk in the light of Your discerning Voice. In the Name of Jesus our Redeemer and Lord
As a former Kingsway person, my heart is heavy over all this. No matter what anyone did, it can be forgiven and worked out through God’s power and grace. Maybe some people will decide to stay — others will go — but everyone needs to face the truth of the situation and make an informed, prayerful decision.
In my view, each person must now determine if the Kingsway/SGM way of doing things — government, authoritarian methods, the lack of transparency, & the doublespeak of calling theology “reformed” when it’s clearly not — is something they can live with in the long haul. Apparently, many people have already decided that they cannot continue there, even at the high cost of leaving behind beloved friends. So what actually happened 10 years ago and down through the years in refusing to acknowledge the truth has served as the catalyst for the deeper organizational issues to be addressed.
I hope that whoever is involved in all this on all sides will not be silenced. Whatever happens needs to be made public. Just the facts, m’am.
AMEN!
Father may our brothers and sisters – united in Jesus, our Lord – continue to seek FIRST the Lord! Seek first HIS Kingdom, not that of men, and HIS righteousness. His righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For that is where YOU are found!
Truth.
Light.
Love.
Lord, please let all of these things be shed abroad at Kingsway. Please, dear Lord, please let the people (all of us) see you in any of the circumstances we find ourselves in today. Please show us your way out of perversion and into the light of day.
First time poster…
Praying for you at Kingsway.
Although we’ve been part of the Roanoke church for several years now, I didn’t know all the history.
And it causes me to pray for my pastors here. Why? Wasn’t BD over us here in Roanoke (as well as Franklin and Chesapeake?) with GE sort of under him? These were the people responsible to care for and counsel my pastors – those that are charged to care for my soul.
Who is caring for my pastors ss they learn of long standing, hidden sin issues revealed in those that they should have been able to trust and confide in? (BD and GE.) What do they do now with the counsel they have received over these many years from such flawed “oversight”. Does it now automatically invalidate all previous counsel? Was some of it good? Was some of it wrong? What counsel was good and what was bad? How has some of that counsel affected their marriages? Our church? How has it affected our caregroup leaders when they’ve met with GE?
How is the leadership here faring? Have they been left to blow in the wind until this is “resolved”?
“Resolved”, by the way, is a funny word here. If a pastor has been deceptive for ten years (did I get that right?), wouldn’t that be a valid reason to at least step down from such a high position of overseeing multiple churches if not subject to outright dismissal? If I had been deceptive in my marriage about some sin issue for a decade, by God’s grace, hopefully I would be seen repentant and in sackcloth and ashes. And it might take years to rebuild the trust of my spouse that I shattered in my deception.
Sadly, GE’s sin and deception affects more than Kingsway. His position of oversight affects all under him including the church in Roanoke.
How are my pastors doing? Are they still trusting God despite being subject to such tainted authority?
So far nothing has been mentioned in Roanoke regarding BD or GE, Maybe they are waiting for the dust to settle but that could be a long time.
– Roanoker
I should clarify “So far nothing has been mentioned in Roanoke regarding BD or GE.”
Meaning nothing has been mentioned to the general populace. Since I’m not currently in a leadership position here, I have no way of knowing if the CGLs know or not. CG had a bit of a different spirit this evening, so maybe they do know….
But the rest of us should know, at least about BD by now. These are the people that had direct oversight of our church.
– Roanoker
AMEN, in agreement with the prayer of Defended and Stunned……….
KingsWay Band of Brothers and Sisters— be on guard —watch and discern for the
perversion–the maze of twistings which bring confusion — and ultimately DEFLECT
from what God has brought to light to be weighed on His scale.
KingsWay is the huge mirror reflection of the consequences of SGM polity and leadership.
As Nickname emphasized: “….So what actually happened 10 years go and down through the years in refusing to acknowledge the TRUTH has served as the catalyst for the
DEEPER ORGANIZATIONAL ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED.”
The picture is so very clear — Light is fixed upon the organization known as SGM and its manipulative pollution which seeps into its [dysfunctional] “family of churches”.
Roanoker
Welcome to the blog. You raise some good points.
SGM isn’t known for sharing things such as what Gene Emerson did or other problems such as what happened that resulted in Brett Detwiler stepping down to general members. Thus it doesn’t surprise me that they haven’t shared anything with you about Kingsway and Gene Emerson’s sin. There certainly are other examples people could share quite similar to these.
Some of the point I would make (and have shared some of these before) are:
Isn’t is pretty obvious that if Gene Emerson withheld the truth for 10 years and it took a lot of prodding on others to getting to admit his lie then those actions make him disqualified to be an elder according to scripture. This is especially true when he has the position of Sr. Pastor. I just can’t understand why this isn’t a very plain black and white issue to everyone involved.
Why this hasn’t been done or called for by SGM Leaders including C.J. Mahaney is baffling. Yes there is forgiveness and maybe one day maybe he could be restored to leadership but sadly his actions have disqualified him. Also shouldn’t a pastor/elder who continued in sin like he did be rebuked in the presence of all as Scripture calls for? One of the reasons for forcing Larry Tomczak to step down was Tomczak allegedly telling a lie. Shouldn’t the same rules apply to Gene Emerson?
Dave Harvey in one his messages did acknowledge that Gene Emerson did admit his pride and/or arrogance. If one has this, is humility something that can really be learned “on the job” as a Sr. Pastor? Isn’t this another reason for Gene Emerson to step down? I imagine if Gene Emerson was more humble then he wouldn’t have withheld the truth like he did for 10 years.
I hear about a continued number of people leaving Kingsway over this issue. My thought is that if Gene Emerson really cared about Kingsway he would step down to help preserve unity and stop the demise of Kingsway. Apparently Emerson cares more about his job and position rather than for Kingsway. Emerson even has a skill (pharmacist) that he could go back to doing for a period of time.
I wonder if SGM has considered the scriptural warning about a little leaven? From what I can see the group’s application of Church discipline is usually only applied to regular members and not leaders. Doesn’t SGM realize that the sins of a leader are more of a threat to a group typically than those of a regular member.
One other thought is that people have hypothesized that with Gene Emerson being involved with SGM for such a long period of time he may know “too much” for SGM Leadership to be able to discipline him without Gene Emerson possibly sharing some embarassing things that other leaders in SGM have done. It is just a theory but might explain why SGM Leadership seems to be taking a “hands off” and essentially “washing their hands” of the situation.
I hope this helps.
In situations like this it is always good to go to God’s Word for wisdom…………..
Which of the following verses apply to the apostle at Kingsway?
A) Luke 6:43-44
B) Matthew 7:16-18
C) Both A and B
D) Neither A nor B
If you answered C then it’s clear as to what should be done……………….
Matthew 7:19-20
N.S.L.B.
Wow, Roanoker. Glad you spoke up. I’m shocked. The very issue at heart here involves the first pastor of the Roanoke Church plant and the truth of what happened as to why he did not stay. I don’t know what Roanoke was told at the time, but I was there in Richmond ten years ago the night it was explained to SCR/Kingsway. If they owed an explanation to Kingsway, they surely owe one to Roanoke — the wording we heard that night was that the pastor had abandoned and deserted the church due to his sin, his own sin, and nobody else’s sin. Now we know different. Roanoke deserves to know as well. This is part of the very root of the Roanoke church.
This crazy secrecy stuff needs to stop. Sure, there are matters of discretion that are not public knowledge. There’s been at least one horrible sin issue that was brought up before the entire church in a public meeting that could have been handled far more discreetly and has probably added greatly to the pain of the person who was eventually restored to fellowship. But by golly, if someone was maligned in a public meeting and we now know it was not the truth, they need to be CLEARED in an even more public way, and any more talk about the “tyranny of the aggrieved” should be sent right back to the pit from whence it came.
Okay, SGM — you don’t want elders/deacons in the Reformed sense. You don’t want congregationalism. You don’t want people who question your dogma or methods. So WHO DO YOU WANT? Do you want a congregation?? Then start being truthful, honest, and respectful of the very folks whose hard-earned and freely given tithes make it possible for you to exist, and tell them the TRUTH about EVERY SITUATION from day ONE. Come clean with your theology — Dave Harvey’s trip to Kingsway was disappointing to many who were hoping and praying for reform, but at least he was honest and gave it the old “my way or the highway” spin in his “you joined us, this is the way we are, take it or leave it” speech. How sad that they are missing out on the collective wisdom of so many mature Christians by dismissing them as “lay” people.
Again — one pastor lost his church, his job, his livlihood, his ministry when he was maligned. Now, the pastor who admitted maligning continues in the pulpit, as if nothing ever happened. Surely some of his hand-picked “leadership team” might have advised hiim to step aside, if not permanently, at least until what he himselff called an “impasse” could be resolved. Oh, that’s right, it was his hand-picked leaders who implored him for ten years to tell the WHOLE truth and make amends.
Roanoker — I noticed your reference to the “pastors who watch over our souls” idea. This idea, in SGM, has been taken way too far and become the defense for re-establishing a Catholic peasant / priest / cardinal / pope hierarchy.
The shunning that SW suffered, and that goes on within SGM and other Christian circles needs to stop as well. Ya think you make your point and win somebody over to your extra-biblical definitions of Christian behavior by shunning them if they don’t do Christianity the way you do? You catch more flies with honey — and Christ is even sweeter than the honeycomb. Instead of “love-bombing” for the purpose of sucking in new members, we need to love those around us for the purpose of enriching each other’s lives — for the edification of the church, for the equipping of the saints to do the work of ministry — for the GLORY OF GOD.
(If I could insert background music here, it would be “The Church’s One Foundation”….) God’s grace to all of you — with His own blood he bought YOU, and for your life he died.
Has anyone heard anything? Have there been any meetings?
STEVE 240 said: One other thought is that people have hypothesized that with Gene Emerson being involved with SGM for such a long period of time he may know “too much” for SGM Leadership to be able to discipline him without Gene Emerson possibly sharing some embarassing things that other leaders in SGM have done. It is just a theory but might explain why SGM Leadership seems to be taking a “hands off” and essentially “washing their hands” of the situation.
Steve — I’ve seen you allude to this possiblity several times, and each time it has made me very uncomfortable. To me, it is unfair conjecture. At this point, nothing would surprise me, though something like this would shock me. I hope you are wrong.
Thanks.
Nothing shocks me.
It’s called sin. It can happen anywhere, to anyone.
What DOES shock me is SGM’s polity in light of such.
Nickname said:
“Steve — I’ve seen you allude to this possiblity several times, and each time it has made me very uncomfortable. To me, it is unfair conjecture. At this point, nothing would surprise me, though something like this would shock me. I hope you are wrong. ”
I hope I am wrong also. It does make me wonder what would be preventing those in SGM Leadership from insisting that Gene Emerson step down due his actions and how they clearly disqualify him from being a pastor. As I said before, this was one of the reasons given for Larry Tomczak needing to step down.
With this being the case this is the only rationale that I can think of for SGM Leaders refusing to take action when they really should be: Gene Emerson “knows” or has “too much” knowledge. Again I hope I am wrong. If am correct then it shows just how lacking in integrity the top leadership has become.
I will admit that it is only a hypothesis but what else might explain SGM Leaders totally ignoring scriptural mandates in this situation. I am open to other possible reasons.
ALRIGHT,NICKNAME—your post@ 3:45 — Amen!!!
Clapping… for the T R U T H !!!!
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Roanoker,
Thankyou for writing — ya’lls perspective up in Roanoke is significant— your former pastor and you, the congregants, have been lied about and to by GE and apparently thats ok with SGM- Dave Harvey and CJ Mahaney. Remember the days when SGM mocked the “WWJD” bracelets and the outreach to witness reflecting Christ (WWJD—”what would Jesus do??”) —but really, I wonder— what WOULD JESUS DO????????
As has been addressed on this site many times— there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuge chasm between SGM leadership and pastors and the congregants.
Ironically, during the Chesapeake Story, the “3 Couples” approached KB and BC with Biblical and scriptural admonitions to step down from their postion as pastors due to disqualifying themselves. (If you are unfamiliar with this, please read the Cheapeake Story/Esther/My Story of Hope , on the Refuge). Their horrendous ‘counsel’ to women in crisis, backed up by bullying, and threats of church discipline were incongruent with Christlike life-giving help. —-SGM’s answer??? Send in GE— who promptly slandered the 3 Couples for being advocates of abused women and children. KB then relocates to KingsWay to be “cared for” by GE. Fast forward a couple years and now GE is in the Light of uncovered lies,slander, and maligning of a brother in Christ.
I wonder…….what has KB learned????? How to keep on keepin’ on???
Or—-when destructive sins of a pastor are committed against his own ‘sheep’, just call in Peacemakers and get these little ol issues resolved. Sheep, go back to sleep. I do believe the sheep are waking up— and seeing—and asking questions
Remember when Jesus said: “I AM the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
— He did NOT say the Shepherd lays down His life for other Shepherds!! THIS is what SGM does — circle the wagons around the Shepherds—discard the broken or crying out sheep — and apply some of that whitewash on all the meadows— lest any sheep from another pasture see the wounded and mauled scattered behind.
Please please run, don’t walk from any SGM pastor who trumpets himself as “watching over your soul” because they deem themselves as “standing in the very stead of God.”
Your twisted polity is coming unraveled, SGM…and the voices of the mauled and maligned??? The voices are being HEARD.
Thankyou, Nickname, reminding us of the Wesley hymn “The Church’s One Foundation is
Jesus Christ our Lord….with His own Blood He bought us and for our life He died….”
Quizzler,
Thankyou for reminding us of Jesus’ Words, teaching us to be “fruit inspectors”
And why the importance to SEE fruit ? MAtt 7:17 “So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.”
Fruit trees are self-revelatory – what you see producing, is… what it is. No rocket science or continuous meetings or Peacemaker conciliators necessary. See…discern… identify… How can we even see healing come forth if we are not willing to identify correctly/truthfully? Gods great mercy brings deep pruning…and time…..and care for hopeful restoration and renewal. But this cannot be if the diseased tree is disguised as able to bear healthy fruit. The tree will eventually wither until it is no longer able to bear fruit. What a sad picture.— The pruning scalpel is a tool of mercy we should not hinder or obstruct. As Christians, we all want to see Gods people bearing fruit — producing life (not destruction) after its own kind– the reflection of Jesus the Christ.
Still praying for you all, KingsWay..and Roanoke…….
There has been some concern that very little seems to be happening with KingsWay as this whole thing gets into the Peacemaker process. What I can report is the each of the pastors as well as the “band of brothers” met with the conciliator sent from Peacemaker Ministries. He will go back and evaluate as to whether there even is anything he can do in this situation. If he feels they can offer help he will meet with everyone together in a meeting planned for a couple of days in November.
As far as KingsWay itself goes, it appears that it is business as usual from the reports that this reporter gets. It also has been reported that the numbers are very low and it has been conjectured that it will be very hard to make budget with a congregation so small. There have been some new families coming lately. They really don’t have any idea what they are getting into.
Tonight about 45 present and former members met for fellowship and to discuss the need for some regular small group fellowship meetings either on sunday mornings or on evenings during the week.
I understand that there are many more at KingsWay that are on the fence. Many folks are upset about the things that happened ten years ago and were reveled on August 15th, but I think that more and more are connecting the dots. They are seeing that what Gene did to SW is just a reflection of what has been going on at KingsWay all along and also what is going on in much of Sovereign Grace. What people are beginning to see is that the leadership is isolated and not accountable to anyone above or below. They are telling the congregation how much they want to hear from them on issues, but they control the dialog and will allow no public meetings to air differences. The congregation is smart enough to see through mere lip service on the part of the pastors. Without a dramatic change to the polity and leadership structure, there will be no real change and the church will most likely fall into the same traps we saw over the first 20 years.
The encouraging news is that people are determined to fellowship and are getting together. At some point the Peacemaker report will be done and the people that have one foot in and one foot out will make a decision whether to stay or go.
Steve240 wrote: Gene Emerson “knows” or has “too much” knowledge.
It did not stop them from getting rid of Brent. Talk about someone who has knowledge of the goings on with PDI/SGM.
The bottom line is that SGM and KWCC are run as businesses and if SGM threw Gene under the bus at this point, and left the church under young Matthew’s leadership (as if it isn’t already under his leadership), there would be an incredible exodus. It just doesn’t make sense from a business point of view.
Looking Elsewhere said:
“The bottom line is that SGM and KWCC are run as businesses and if SGM threw Gene under the bus at this point, and left the church under young Matthew’s leadership (as if it isn’t already under his leadership), there would be an incredible exodus. It just doesn’t make sense from a business point of view.”
I guess that is another possibility why SGM doesn’t call for Gene Emerson to step down: They don’t have anyone else they can bring in to lead or at least there is no one there locally. Though it would be challenge for lay leaders working full time jobs to lead, I am sure that is option and sad it isn’t being considered. Maybe a lot of the more qualified lay leaders have already left due to the problems that have recently come to light?
You make a good point about SGM Leadership forcing Brent D to step down but not Gene Emerson. From what I had heard, Brent D’s actions had gotten so extreme that SGM Leadership really had to force him down. Perhaps it was due to some Gene Emerson’s sin being in the past and Gene Emerson’s admitted arrogance wasn’t as extreme as Brent D’s that SGM Leadership has chosen not to call for Emerson to step down.
This is my first post on this site and I am writing to address the beloved brothers and sisters who are still at KW and who have chosen to not ask questions and who are in my humble opinion blindly following the leaders. (I have been a member of KW for several years and have recently revoked my membership.) Please know who you are loyal to. Please know who you are choosing to follow. These men have done horrible things to MANY of your friends / fellow believers. Ask questions. Seek the truth. Jesus is setting the captives free. There have been too many years of silence. People have said “well, they haven’t done anything to me personally, they’ve been nice to me. I’ll leave if they ever spiritually abuse me.” Get ready, it will happen. Especially now that over 1/2 the church has left or is leaving. You “loyal KW members” are going to have ALL of the pastors’ attention. WATCH OUT!
Ask questions. Look at all of the strong brothers and sisters who have left. Believers who have loved KW for 20 years. Who have invested their time, money and families to KW. Do you really think they’re leaving over a lie? The pastors have said that BD has an agenda and that we don’t really know the whole truth. (Of course they can’t /won’t tell us the whole truth though.) BD and his whole family have gone through horrible persecution from some of you for bringing the truth out , to set all of us free. NEVER has BD done anything to further himself. What could possibly be his agenda? What has he gained? He doesn’t want to start a new church, he hasn’t gained anything but pain, slander, isolation and loss of beloved friendships. It’s astounding that a few days before August 15 everyone in the church thought the world of him and would have said that he was such a leader and such a godly man. Then after August 15 people start shunning him and his family. Now he is a liar with an agenda?
Don’t be passive. Speak up, ask questions. Seek the truth. Just ask anyone who has left or is leaving. They’ll share honestly. The truth sets us free. THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT SW AND BD AND Gene. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE. All of the pastors are guilty. All of them have given horrible, non-biblical counsel. All of them have hidden the truth about MANY things. They are in this together. If Gene were to step down, you still have all of the others who are just as guilty!
Why are you staying?
There is freedom out here. All you need is Jesus. All you need is the Holy Spirit to guide you. You are free in Christ. You don’t need a mere man to tell you what books to read, what to do, what to listen to, if you should get a part time job, if you should adopt, if you should have more kids, if you should homeschool etc. Jesus does not give them that authority. They don’t have the right to tell you what to do. You don’t need them. Jesus will set you free from the deception and bondage and spiritual abuse and will guide you to where His truth is. There are many churches that love the Lord and are healthy and thriving. Where you can follow the path that God has set before you and use your spiritual gifts and not be controlled by mere men. Jesus didn’t die for you to be in bondage.
Looking Elsewhere,
Thank you for writing,we welcome news of what is in process……….
We are so very encouraged to hear many Brethren at KingsWay are ENGAGED — not allowing themselves to be lulled to sleep by SGM manipulative polity and/or their m.o. of control: “They are telling the congregation how much they want to hear from them on issues, but they CONTROL the dialog and will allow no public meetings to air differences.”
You are SEEING, KingsWay, you are SEEING! “Many folks are upset about the things that happened ten years ago and were revealed on Aug 15th but I think that more and more are connecting the dots. THEY ARE S E E I N G THAT WHAT GENE DID TO SW IS JUST A REFLECTION OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON AT KINGSWAY ALL ALONG AND ALSO WHAT IS GOING ON IN MUCH OF SGM………..WITHOUT A DRAMATIC CHANGE TO THE POLITY AND LEADERSHIP STRUCTURE, THERE WILL BE NO REAL CHANGE……………”
Whatever will Peacemakers conclude?……they are in a precarious position. For now THEY are accountable for what they know as facts—lies, deceit, maligning, contol, manipulation—are all ingrained in SGM “overseeing” Will they be able to “help”? Will they align themself with scripture or fanangle some kind of Law procedure?
And if GE is dismissed, will young Matthew officially preside as governing Pastor? (Under Gods mercy, I pray he will reconsider going to medical school — we need Godly physicians) What about KB? Will the church plant he is scheduled to spearhead be on hold ?— will he be considered for Sr Pastor?
KingsWay Band of Brothers and Sisters— again we say, you are significant in the ongoing battle to reveal TRUTH of the consequences of SGM Polity. You are keeping your hands on the Sword, you are gathering together, you are praying, you are seeing, —you are discerning— Praying the Lord will continue to strengthen you as you take courage each step He directs………
Funny, when GE would speak here in Roanoke, I was never really impressed. And I’m not referring to his message or his preaching style. And I’ve never mentioned this to anyone.
Sadly, while I would call this discernment, other SGM leadership that I’ve known over the years would call this “sin”. “Not believing the best”, “Thinking too highly of my own opinion”, “Defiling leadership”, “Not trusting God’s sovereignty”. etc., etc.
I hadn’t mentioned my opinion of GE to the leadership here in Roanoke, so I don’t know what their response would be. Maybe they had no choice but to work with GE.
Reading Titus in my regular devotions… “For an overseer as God’s steward, must be above reproach…” “Blameless” says the KJV.
If it is as reported, there really is only one option.
If you can’t respond to the incredible love shown to you through salvation to do what is right or if standing before a holy God to give account for your deeds do not move you to do what is right, then you are an unrepentant sinner.
That’s true for me. that’s true for you, that’s true for GE.
Maybe what Peacemakers should be thinking is restoration. Not of GE, but of SW’s reputation. Publicly to all who had been lied to. Seems that should include us here in Roanoke as well.
Did I get this right? SW stayed with KW since his return from Roanoke? He willingly submitted to the church all this time?
If you can’t respond to the incredible love shown to you through salvation to do what is right or if standing before a holy God to give account for your deeds do not move you to do what is right, then you are an unrepentant sinner.
That’s true for me. that’s true for you, that’s true for GE.
……………
Roanoker ~ that’s pure unvarnished truth there, how much simpler can it be? There would have to be some major finagling for any other “truth” to be presented as “counsel” by Peacemakers.
Yes, Roanoker. SW came back to KingsWay and submitted to Gene’s leadership. It was during that time that Bob D came to realize how much his friend, SW, was wronged and actually repented of agreeing with Gene at the 2001 family night regarding SW’s supposed sin of unbelief. Bob then came to SW’s defense over the course of almost 10 years culminating in the August 15 family meeting that started this whole thing.
But make no mistake, at the root of all of this is a corrupted biblical teaching regarding leadership. SGM hangs its hat on the idea that pastors “stand in the very stead of God.” This is another way of saying they stand “instead” of God. Does your pastor stand before you a a God-replacement? Does he have a “special anointing” that allows him to hear from God for you. Of course, the answer is NO, but they believe it. And they believe that there is no such thing as a lay-elder: that all elders must be paid pastors. Then they add to that the belief that all pastors are elders even if they are only right out of pastors college. This tends to isolate the pastors and also cause a situation where if one pastor dissents on a particular issue, consideration of his next review and where how he will feed his family plays into how strongly he might disagree with the senior pastor. In this environment decisions are made with very little regard of congregational opinion on a matter. I am not saying that every SGM church operates the way that KWCC does, but that the foundation is laid. And if you think it will ever change, just listen to the message Dave Harvey gave at KingsWay a couple of weeks after all this blew up. In it, he drives a stake into the ground regarding SGM’s polity. Personally, that was the point where I knew I had to leave KingsWay.
RemnantKW,
Thankyou for writing ………….
Your words to your fellow congregants at KingsWay hit home for many of us, I’m sure.
When an upheaval of an SGM church occurs, it is sadly disappointing to realize there are those who see the destructive actions perpetrated by leadership….and yet—they not only decide to dig in their heels and ‘side’ with the oppressors, but then turn around and assail the one or ones who have spoken and revealed TRUTH. This is another consequence of SGM corporation— the leaven of hypocrisy multiplies (as Jesus warned us about).
We are so saddened to hear how BD (and family) are treated.
And so very thankful there are also many who stand together, battling the pollution of SGM “overseeing” and polity. We see you standing in courage… On the narrow path…
This evening praying for BD and SW and all those who are making a stand for Righteousness as you confront SGM:
PS 26: 1
“Vindicate me, O lord, for I have walked in my integrity,
And I have trusted in the Lord without wavering”
RemnantKW, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome!
Thank you for writing such an excellent post. My heart is swelling with emotion as I hang on your every word. For I am once again amazed that what I read from you is exactly what I observed, experienced, and learned of SGM. These things are not created by our imagination nor are we making them up. It is all (sadly) very real! Story after story is the same – the deception, lies, abuse, corruption, control, manipulation, wrong doctrine, it is all there. All that you said is so true!
Dear fellow brothers and sisters at Kingsway and every other SGM church,
Even if Gene Emerson or any other abusive pastor is removed, they are all tainted because they have submitted to the SGM leadership, doctrines, and m.o. If you are staying because you think that you can help bring forth change, that you can help make things right and fix what is wrong, sadly, you are mistaken. Over 2 years have gone by, story after story has been reported and much has been exposed of the error and wrongdoing within SGM. It is evident that the leadership has dug in their heels! THEY ARE NOT CHANGING NOR ARE THEY GOING TO CHANGE!! Look at the evidence set before you! Think for yourselves. Leave and find a healthy church where you can walk in freedom and live the abundant life that Jesus Christ Himself has promised to each of His children. We are co-heirs with Christ, seated in heavenly places with Him! May the breath of God and the Spirit of Life saturate your very being today, that you may walk in truth and freedom, free from manipulation, abuse, and control!
I am once again reminded of the importance of the blogs. Every Sunday, unsuspecting people walk through the doors of SGM church doors, innocent to all that has been exposed, unknowing of the truth of the church they have just stepped into. Just yesterday someone asked me to tell them my story with SGM. I realized once again that I must continue to blow the trumpet when God calls me to do so. I so want to put this out of my mind and forget all that I know, all that has happened. But for the sake of the brethren and for the sake of my obedience to God, I must continue to blow the trumpet of warning when God opens the door for me to do so. I do this knowing that I can still move forward in the freedom and healing of Jesus Christ, not allowing the memories of SGM to hold me in bondage of hurt, pain, bitterness nor hurt. No, I move forward in the abundance that Jesus has for me because of the mighty power of Holy Spirit dwelling within me and because of the mighty power of the Cross and the Resurrection!
Looking Elsewhere said:
“This tends to isolate the pastors and also cause a situation where if one pastor dissents on a particular issue, consideration of his next review and where how he will feed his family plays into how strongly he might disagree with the senior pastor. In this environment decisions are made with very little regard of congregational opinion on a matter.”
It has been said before that one advantage of having lay elders is that lay elders can be more vocal and don’t have to always take the “party line” since there wouldn’t be the risk of losing their livelihood if they disagreed with other leaders or those above them. Even if only some of the elders were lay elders it certainly would create a better balance. Sadly the system of paid elders who are dependent on the system for their families’ financial support typically creates a group of “yes men” vs. men that are empowered to do the right thing.
It would really surprise me if SGM changes to this but with God all things are possible.
I am surprised that there is another “Remnant” moniker allowed by the software as the above “Remnant” (who describes him/herself as a newly former KW member) is not me, who is the Remnant who has been posting here for several years.
Welcome to the new Remnant, but perhaps you could choose another name for clarity’s sake? Though I do love your name, I think two of us would confuse others (heck, I was confused, wondering if I’d posted something in the last day or two – smile – doesn’t take much to confuse me nowadays!).
And a hearty AMEN to your post!
The latest saint posting as “Remnant” has had their handle changed to “RemnantKW” until they choose a different one (RemnantKW, let me know what handle other than “Remnant” you would like to use and I will change your handle on previous posts).
This is to be fair to the original Remnant.
Hope everyone is okay with this.
RemnantKW, greetings, and thank you for posting.
–pk
Thank you, PK.
I hope the name confusion does not detract from what RemnantKW has posted – which I think is important as it comes from one who knows the KW brethren.
Again, a hearty welcome RemnantKW!
Sorry about the confusion. Walking in Freedom is my new choice, unless it has been taken!
Boy have I been missing out. I haven’t been here for a while and have just read through numerous postings that are profound in different ways, speaking to me and from the responses, many others.
You’ve already received an excellent update from “Looking Elsewhere.” He’s right, the conciliation portion of the PM process is complete and they are scheduled to meet for mediation in November.
As for KW, the leadership has made it business as usual. The numbers are WAY DOWN, the budget is in trouble but the pastors act as if nothing has happened. In fact they appear so comfortable, I’m told, that the KW sponsored, Charlottesville church plant has been announced with Keith Breault at the helm. Arrogance upon arrogance.
I believe that this clearly shows a total disregard for any discussions surrounding repentance of past sins or any need for change. It also shows a total lack of respect for the PM process, which I’m not a fan of, but am willing to see proceed unhindered. I could be wrong, but it seems unwise, at best, to pursue a church plant in the midst of this situation.
This is the organazation that always speaks of what is in the heart, right? Doesn’t it appear that the heart behind these types of actions would hold a strong view of what they as pastors have done and a pursuit to spread their current practices unimpeded? I guess it’s more of the same for KW and SGM.
For those who want a place to worship without the weights or burdens that many feel as they walk through the doors of KW each Sunday AM and to those who are simply seeking a place to worship, many families have opened their homes for the purpose of having a loving body to worship with. I can get their meeting and contact information to you. I’m not saying that to recruit you away from KW or to form some mob of angry ex-KWer’s. Most of those attending these groups are simply seeking where the Lord would have them. Each family, including those men leading, have said they are doing this week by week while they seek the Lord’s direction. These groups may become churches, most are simple gatherings where men, women and children are welcome to worship together and use the gifts God has given them.
I would encourage you to at least visit one. I have and found a group that simply wants to share relationally and worship the One to whom they cling. It was an amazing time!
PK, could we handle any contacts through you for now?
Remnant Original– I thought the name seemed familiar!— thankyou for clarifying and at the same time encouraging to RemnantKW.
RemnantKW,
In rereading your post, there are alarming points, in particular:
In regards to BD you said “It’s astounding that a few days before Aug 15th everyone in the church thought the world of him and would have said that he was such a leader and a Godly man. Then after Aug 15 people started shunning him and his family. Now he is a liar with an agenda?” ——– Sadly, this is a direct result of typical SGM overseership.
Turning the tables to accuse the one/ones exposing sin in leadership….as a person
“with an agenda”. The Voice of Holy Spirit is so drowned out, many congregants listen to the voice of men. Who is the accuser of the Brethren? We know the answer.
Who exposes and uncovers sin and lies to bring forth Truth? We know the answer.
No gray area and no room for double-mindedness when we listen to Holy Spirit.
RemnantKW also stated:
“……..This is not just about SW and BD and Gene. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE.
All of the pastors are guilty. All of them have given horrible non-Biblical counsel.
All of them have HIDDEN the TRUTH about MANY things. They are in this together.
If Gene were to step down, you still have all of the others who are just as guilty.
Why are you staying?”
Please please hear—when pastors are issuing horrible non-Biblical counsel, as has been reported on Refuge for 3 years now—- this mauls and wounds the Brethren.
Jesus came as Savior,Redeemer, Giver of Life — not a law-driven task-master.
SGM pastors are TRAINED the same way in all their pastor meetings (and we all know there are lots of meetings). In our story, we had 2 pastors and 1 ‘apostle’ apologize using the very same words. Are they also trained and robotized on how to respond?
All the SGM church upheavals (Fairfax, Chesapeake ,Orlando, Denver, Phoenix, Richmond) that have been reported on the Refuge have common denominators:
*Sins and/or unBiblical actions of leadership exposed by congregants
*Leadership denies and attempts various manipulative cover-ups
*Congregants pursue answers for Truth
*Leadership holds “Family Meetings”
*Congregants ask questions which bring Truth to the forefront
*Leadership charges congregants with having an “agenda”, “rebellion”, “enemy of the church”
*Leadership may call in Peacemakers
*Leadership admits to the charges brought
*Regional Overseer flies in to Family Meeting to re-establish the fact that the congregants have no voice and SGM may not be for everyone so if you don’t like how the corporation is run–take a hike to another church
*Root sins remain entrenched and are now whitewashed, thereby allowing for
insidious reproduction
There is simply the decision on WHOM is our Lord and whom shall we serve?
God or mammon?
Those who exhibit fruit of lies and manipulations and woundings/destruction?
In Matt 22: 35-39, A lawyer in the Pharisee group, asked Jesus the Christ a question,
to test Him: “Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him,
Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Love does not lie to; manipulate and cover-up truths; accuse the Brethren;
control with the law; bring hopelessness and/or despair
We have the choice….to choose Life………or a counterfeit
Mike Drewry said:
“As for KW, the leadership has made it business as usual. The numbers are WAY DOWN, the budget is in trouble but the pastors act as if nothing has happened. In fact they appear so comfortable, I’m told, that the KW sponsored, Charlottesville church plant has been announced with Keith Breault at the helm. Arrogance upon arrogance.
I believe that this clearly shows a total disregard for any discussions surrounding repentance of past sins or any need for change. It also shows a total lack of respect for the PM process, which I’m not a fan of, but am willing to see proceed unhindered. I could be wrong, but it seems unwise, at best, to pursue a church plant in the midst of this situation.”
I have shared this before on one of the blogs. Below is the steps that Jim Collins shares his theory on how corporations fail:
STAGE 1: HUBRIS BORN OF SUCCESS
STAGE 2: UNDISCIPLINED PURSUIT OF MORE
STAGE 3: DENIAL OF RISK AND PERIL
I know that this is only a theory that Jim Collins writes about but sure has some validity in my mind. It appears that SGM and Kingsway certainly showed the stage 1: the hubris born of success. It now appears that they are at stage 3 which is the denial of risk and peril. Mike’s comment sure shows they are at this stage but sad they are there.
One person mentioned that one possibility for SGM not calling for Gene Emerson to step down was a lack of other leaders to put in his place. First off, scripture doesn’t make an allowance for keeping a disqualified leader if you don’t think you have one to replace him with. But with the church plant to Charlotesville and the existing plant in Fredericksburg, maybe Kingsway should consider at least temporarily closing those plants and focus on correcting Richmond including other leaders.
One would think that closing these others and tapping some of that leadership would make sense.
SGM has a huge rainy day fund, Investments are up for 2009 from 2008 to 1,484,981.
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....pport.aspx
Lets not overlook the launch of SGM Austrailia – http://www.sovgraceoz.org/
The arrogance and the desire to have a shiny happy veneer is classic SGM.
I am surprised that anyone is shocked at the outcome. The process was always
designed to keep people quiet, and bring submission.
Besides, how foolish will the brethren look when
crying foul when the plantings are being touted as a sign of God’s favor?
Crime in Italy!
Waters -
Re #47 – Add Pleasanton and Manhattan to the list. From what I’ve read/heard, they share a large number of the elements you enumerate.
Mike and all–
You don’t necessarily have to go meet with other KW folk in Richmond in small groups in homes. There are tons of great churches, despite what you have been told over the years at KW! One problem is this: you guys have not been in a healthy church, heard healthy, freedom-giving doctrine, experienced the freedom of being led by elected lay leaders, or had the chance to just come and worship, free from love-bombing, sin-sniffing, groupthink and nitpicking.
We are hanging with a former KW family at our church now…so are many others at other churches in town…encouraging them to just come and rest, be fed and free, and as anonymous as they’d like to be.
So many good comments, so much hope, God will redeem!
Unassimilated said:
“SGM has a huge rainy day fund, Investments are up for 2009 from 2008 to 1,484,981.”
Realize this is SGM money and not necessarily for use at Kingsway. SGM is the franchise and Kingsway is the franchisee.
It will be interesting to see if SGM helps bail Kingsway out of a slow period for income.
Mike Drewry said:
“For those who want a place to worship without the weights or burdens that many feel as they walk through the doors of KW each Sunday AM and to those who are simply seeking a place to worship, many families have opened their homes for the purpose of having a loving body to worship with. I can get their meeting and contact information to you. I’m not saying that to recruit you away from KW or to form some mob of angry ex-KWer’s. Most of those attending these groups are simply seeking where the Lord would have them. Each family, including those men leading, have said they are doing this week by week while they seek the Lord’s direction. These groups may become churches, most are simple gatherings where men, women and children are welcome to worship together and use the gifts God has given them. ”
One person shared this a while ago on his experience with leaving SGM. You may need to take some time to mourn. There are a lot of things going on with the people that are considering or have already decided to leave.
You were told for years and believed that the leaders of Kingsway including Gene Emerson were men of character, humility, open to correction etc. You are now finding out that a lot of this wasn’t true and still isn’t. Sadly the leaders put on a facade of being this way but weren’t. Even now when Gene Emerson’s sins have been exposed that clearly disqualify him from being an elder the leadership of Kingsway still refuse to do the right thing. It can be quite sad and overwhelming be a part of this church and see all this exposed.
Seeing this dichotomy and hypocrisy must be hard on those who have invested so much time and energy into Kingsway. Thus you need to realize that it is Ok and needed to have a mourning period.
The following link gives one person’s suggestions on how to handle leaving SGM:
http://sguncensored.blogspot.c.....grace.html
I hope this helps people leaving or considering leaving Kingsway.
Unassimilated, Thankyou for posting the financial info link.
We were wondering where the money would be coming from to finance a church plant out of KingsWay. Perhaps from SGM “rainy day fund”. KB would not be one they want to lose.
He graduated 1st in his class at SGM Pastors college. This is an excellent accomplishment. However, shepherding??? Not so much.
In Chesapeake, KB and BC inflicted unChristlike and destructive counseling to women in crisis, thereby placing women and children in jeopardy. Is that protective shepherding?
Gene came to KB’s rescue and turned the tables on the “3 Couples”
( who had confronted he and BC on their destructive unBiblical counseling and track of manipulations.) Since then, KB has been under Genes tutelage. Then, in the Sovereignty of God, the KingsWay implosion begins … . And KB has been able to participate in and watch, once again, the undermining and manipulation of truth orchestrated by SGM polity and overseers. No matter that a fellow Christian has been lied about, and endured years of maligning. No matter that God has brought sins of the SGM leadership into the light—once again—only to have SGM leadership accuse the brother who was nearly destroyed of having an “agenda”. Nope, none of that really matters. SGM’s determination is to continue to reproduce theirself. An unsuspecting group of naieve Christians are at risk in Charlottesville.
KB, BC, GE, DH, DB, CJM, SS, JP….and any ‘pastor’/elder/SGM leader I have left out,
Hear this: Some day, there just may be a woman whom you counsel in your destructive religous manner— who has a father that will come looking for you. Man to man.
Perhaps one of you have already heard the promise of a quick ‘confrontation’ (?)
God has set forth spiritual laws— one being the law of sowing and reaping.
Since you obviously donot carry the fear of God in how you have destructively counseled women and cause many of them to remain in destructive and dangerous ‘submission’ to an abusive spouse — you continue to defend yourselves and continue to sow in the same manner. I wonder— whatever will you reap? The ‘local church’ you continue to plant anew is automatically endangered of reaping what YOU have already sown — manipulation, whitewashing coverups, control, destructive ‘counsel’, ………………
The Bride of Christ is every Believer – please stop assaulting His Own.
I wholeheartedly concur with RT (October 27, 2010 at 7:46 pm). There are many great churches in Chesterfield/Richmond area. We have explored several and are very happy where we have landed and feel God calling us to stay. Trust in the Lord and he will lead you where you need to be. My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who have left KWCC, we are like seeds being scattered ready to grow, bloom and strengthen other churches in the area. Be encouraged, God’s Church will prevail!
For the LORD is good and his love endures forever; his faithfulness continues through all generations (Psalm 100:5).
To add to Waters earlier post: SGM will not want to lose KB because he is completely and totally submissive to the leadership! This is the type of man that they are looking for – one who will submit, not question, and not think for themselves. Of course, they are looking for young men. The young men are easier to manipulate, control and direct.
Speaking of church plants , I wonder why, in overseas plants SGM works with locally recognized (indigenous) leadership, when at existing SGM churches, they refuse to recognize any gifted (I know that has become a bad word, but in the true sense) LOCAL leaders (indigenous as it were)? They won’t recognize anyone God is raising up unless they’re willing to go away to the pastor mill for reprogramming. I hope SGM monitors see this. I really wonder about this. So many wonderful folks, called and equipped by God, who truly desire serve God have had to leave our church (we’re not in Virginia) because SGM refuses to allow the Spirit’s leading. We are only left with the “followers”. Very sad.
There is LIFE after exiting SGM–
RT and MikeD and Battle Cry — We hope many from KW will find a place of rest as you have exhorted and encouraged. Remember the One Who compassionately desires to restore your soul, KW Band of Brothers and Sisters,—lean in to hear HIs Voice and leading— take the steps as He would guide you…… He is the Deliverer AND the
Redeemer
Jesus came to: Heal the brokenhearted; set captives free; recovery of sight to the blind;
set at liberty them that are bruised — Luke 4:18
It scares me to think of an SGM plant at C’ville. Think of all those college students up there. Yikes. God have mercy.
BB, are you still in a SG church? Thanks.
RT, The Charlottesville plant has been on the horizon for many years.
In all we know about the SGM pollutant polity, we say “yikes” right along with ya.
RT, they LOVE to “work” those college campuses.
Aberrant/cultish groups learned decades ago that college kids are the ideal target group.
Most of the SGM folks I know were either poached from other churches or seduced during their college years.
Let’s commit to pray, y’all.
Praying with you, RT!
Yes, Will be praying on this end too
Fred, Yes, at least for now. Praying about the long term.
BB, why are you still there?
Fred, We love the people. The problems we have here are entirely different from the other churches, but they stem from the same root causes. The fatalistic mentality of SGM leadership: We are in power so what we decide must be God’s will. You are not in power so what you think must not be God’s will. The only way God puts someone “into power” is through proper SGM channels (eg the PC). Otherwise, it must not be God’s will. SGM = God’s will. Unfortunately, most of those who figured out the fallacy of this logic, chose to leave rather than challenge. But God will have his way, one way or another despite this incorrect logic. It’s neither correct logic nor correct doctrine to think power = God’s sanction.
BB, I totally agree with you that God will have His way and that He is soverign over all things. I would ask you to also consider that there are many churches throughout the world that are in great error, many are even cults, yet for some reason unknown to us, God allows them to stand. He does give His children free will though to make choices – to use the wisdom and discernment that He has given to us.
Canary, where are you? I miss you!
BB,
“God,” you wrote, “will have his way.”
Does that inform your decisions?
If this has been brought up before, apologies.
It is new for me.
From SGM’s about us.
Beyond this agreement on the general tenets of Reformed theology, there are areas in which we differ from many Reformed traditions, such as infant baptism, cessationism (the belief that some miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased), and some traditionally Reformed types of Church government.
The bold is mine, Kingsway, and anyone hoping for reform at SGM take note.
As you do, also remind yourself that SGM has no members, nor members with a voice or vote in any of its locations. Your membership simply is an invitation to serve, spend, and attend.
Also wondering where are you PK and PD? Missing you all too!
BB, It is good you are SEEING truth — and in SGM, there can be a fight to maintain seeing the Truth — their pull of deceptive doctrine is strong.
In the Book of Proverbs, chapters 1-7– the beginning sentences are an exhortation/ (plea?) …”My son, hear….My son, receive my words…,, “My son, be attentive to my wisdom…” And the contrasts are given for 31 chapters of good versus evil;
Godly wisdom versus self-rule.
The contrasts are given that we may SEE…….and put action to our convictions.
I pray you will continue to be strengthened in the Truth, and know the God of deliverance–One of the ways Jesus exhorted us to specifically pray :”….Deliver us from evil– for Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory…”
We have learned, after exiting SGM, that we must not look back with an eye and heart that would entangle us. (Our heart is prone to entanglement because of the many wonderful people we walked with there for many years). We still love our Brothers and Sisters in Christ in SGM. And.. cannot walk with them knowing of the deceptive destructive polity and control SGM enterprises wields. We donot want our children and grandchildren to breathe the pollutant air of SGM dangerous doctrine (or as Jesus termed it, leaven) .
Choose life, BB…..Be where the Name of Jesus is lifted up and the Truth that as a Believer you stand in the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Your calling isnot to be
in bondage to sin-management and mini CJM’s…but to know and love and be loved by the Father God, through Jesus His Son…this is where our strength and hope and life thrive… as we are being changed into HIS image and likeness.
The Lord strengthen you and your family in His unfailing love, -Waters
MB, Mike D, Band of Brothers and Sisters at KingsWay,
Do you have word of a date set for Peacemakers conclusions? Will they meet with you before Thanksgiving? Is there a number of people who are actually awaiting the Peacemakers verdict in hopes it will “resolve the issues” ?
What has been exposed as leaderships clear sins of lying, manipulating, and undermining a church members very life……..is now relegated to awaiting Peacemakers decision. We remain so very very interested in hearing the verdict.
As ‘Unassimilated” noted, in SGMs “About Us” page, they inform the public that one of the areas SGM differs from many Reformed traditions is “IN SOME TRADITIONALLY REFORMED TYPES OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT.”
Members of SGM have no voice…. no vote…. the SGM polity structure is more akin to Papal rule.
As has been reported from KingsWay— the papal pulpit is continuing at KingsWay— a church plant to Charlottesville is preparing to start out…and SGM ignores the facts and
papal sins upon a congregation of people…afterall, CJ has tumpeted SGM churches as “the happiest place on earth.”
And so….. we wait for the Peacemakers verdict (?)
And wonder if this will now become a pattern —will Peacemakers ALWAYS be called upon for help when another SGM church implodes ?? (and it will, for they sow in manipulation and control and erred ‘doctrine’)…Or will Peacemakers backaway when SGM is exposed
again?
May the entrance of Gods Word continue to bring Light (PS 119) into every crevice and corner and hidden area in SGM polity and leadership character.
So Waters….could it be that we are waiting for a “Papal Bull” from Peacemakers or Gaithersburg, when it comes to looking for a decision or report?
We spent 10/31 watching the excellent movie Martin Luther… sorry, couldn’t resist.
It feels like someone is waiting for SW, et all to call out and recant their differences with the papal management
Praying for Jesus to be exalted and TRUTH to be shouted from the housetops….
~Defended
I wonder if all of this waiting is a delay tactic? The leaders of Kingsway and perhaps SGM Leaders are hoping that this issue will just die down and they can go back to status quo.
I wonder if they have considered if the following scripture might apply in this situation?
1 Cor 5:6-8 (NIV)
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast — as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
SGM lets this lack of integrity pass unaddressed then what will be next. Will lack of integrity contine to grow within SGM. Will other SGM Pastors think they can do similar actions and not suffer the consequences?
Well, Defended……we await:
”issue” compromises…or a Papal benediction of “it depends what the meaning of ‘is’ is ” (what IS a lie?? what IS manipuilation??
what IS squelching the Voice of the Holy Spirit?? what IS denying men to advocate truth on the behalf of their Brother in Christ?) Hmmmm… are those gray area charges, Peacemakers??? (If so, that would be …”Papal/ or Peacemaker Bull”)
Or…. maybe……..truth and courage to bring forth Godly conclusions— we shall see…
SW and MB and MD and Band of Brothers and Sisters have made a memorial marker —eloquently and honestly listing the grievous sins of SGM leadership which is propelled by SGM Polity. Their voices are clear and truthful and in the light of day.
Yet, we who post here and they who expose sin…are accused as gossips by SGM. If we lived in Martin Luthers day, we would be pelted with fruit and rubbish! I would rather be pelted for exposing destructive sins and thankfully so, than to be entangled in the SGM web of submitting to illusions under the control of men.
Praying with you, Defended (and Defender!)… that Jesus will be lifted up and exalted
and Truth will be shouted from the housetops (internet, satellite, etc etc!)
Steve 240, We have wondered the same— of course ‘they’ would hope that a span of time would quiet the Brethrens repulsions of exposed arrogant leadership.
THANKYOU for posting I COR 5:6-8!
Love how the scriptures brings us out of spin and into simple and profound TRUTH!
Shall we have the verdict of retaining the yeast of malice and wickedness?
Or shall the Brethren at KingsWay, and SGMites, experience the Bread of sincerity
and Truth?
Thankyou,Band of Brothers and Sisters at KingsWay for your stand to partake only of the Bread of Sincerity and Truth.
We stand with you.
If SW’s reputation was defiled here in Roanoke, then he should be cleared here as well. Members are counseled to ask forgiveness of all those we have defiled…
Just sayin’.
Aren’t all the pastors at the Pastor’s Conference this week?
Roanoker, Perhaps there would be a group of you there in Roanoke who could pursue a line of questions in regards to what leadership stated about SW. Is anyone able to ask or contact SW about the details of leaderships maneuverings of him? Indeed, if you there in your congregation were led to believe lies or deceits or duplicity — then, leadership does need to be accountable for this. And SW’s standing needs to be restored before you.
And yes, this week was SGM Pastors Conference.
One has to wonder if ANY of them will be sensitive to the prodding of Holy Spirit…
To ask and seek beyond what is spoon-fed to them
Orlando………….Richmond………….HUGE implodings this year,
which have uncoverd pastoral (now known as elder) manipulations of duplicity and the
maligning of Gods people……..
Will they see— or choose to reject and deflect what has been exposed?
I Cor 5: 6-8 spells it out:
Retain and allow the leaven of wickedness and malice..
or….
Choose the Bread of Truth and sincerity
We will know them by their fruit………….
I say YES to both of your questions Roanaker. That does not appear to be SGM”s M.O. based on past history. Their M.O. seems to be ignore this and it will go away. Obviously, they were not allowed to ignore this situation with SW any longer. Only took them 10 years to admit to wrong doing. However, maybe a new day is dawning and they will come to Roanoke and apologize. I doubt it but one can hope that SGM will do the right thing. Gene and Keith never came back to Chesapeake and apologized to the 3 couples. So we shall see…..
In going over all this, I have been looking for the Polity book written by Dave Harvey from SGMs Perspectives series. Seems to have been removed from the SGM bookstore. I thought it was available as a free pdf.
Waters:
As far as I know, I’m the only one from the Roanoke church on here. It’s not like anybody says anything. Real communication about church issues is so guarded, even between members. My observation is that if anything is shared it may be with CGLs but it never makes it any further than that. Seemingly more cult like than open sharing about sins, issues, like the members are supposed to do.
Roanoker –
http://www.gracechurchsd.org/m.....church.pdf
Roanoker,
Sorry so long to respond— life is always busy! We hear you…and the frustration of what you see and the reality of how SGM churches operate — “real communication about church issues is so guarded,even between members..” After spending 19 years in SGM, we can testify that tht is true to this day.
Most of our friends still in various SGM churches don’t know about Orlando or Richmond or any other implodings because they have bit into the lie that communications are sin/slander/gossip. SGM leadership has put out the word to the leaders of the SGM churches that the Refuge and Survivors blogs are slanderous etc etc…so the robots,I mean congregants mostly stay away.
Roanoker, though it is a bittersweet reality— the truth is, the Lord is opening your eyes and stirring your heart…to see…He will give you the courage, strength, and endurance to persevere in the truth you are seeking. Honestly, humanly speaking, this is very difficult to walk without others who see—because we arenot battling men—but principalities and powers of darkness.. They (SGM) aren’t even aware of the marionette strings glued to their minds which the enemy manipulates.
Perhaps speaking with one or some of the men from KingsWay would be of help to you.
We are all in this fight together, and I know the Band of Brothers would speak truth to and with you
True your point — one of the most significant characteristic of a cult is to
control communication between its members. SGM has groomed the word “slander”
to be the pillar of control in its people — congregants now believe that to discuss church matters or people…is slanderous. They have denied the unctions of the Holy Spirit. This is why the church implosions have occured. The Lord ALWAYS hears our cries and questions.
He never covers up for child molesters, (see Fairfax story, Noels Story on Survivors), spouse abusers, Brethren maligners, being deceitful to a congregation, etc etc
Roanoker, as has been said on this forum so many times….stay near to Jesus
He IS our Shepherd……keep calling upon Him for His Word and clear Voice and Light which shatters that which is hidden.
The Lord bless you and your family in His unfailing Love
Thanks, Waters.
Overall, it’s pretty scary. I do truly wish to seek the input of others.. my wife first, then other godly men… In a multitude of counselors, there is wisdom (Proverbs). God does put us in a local body for a reason. But things are a bit too tight lipped for my comfort, even in my CG. I’ve seen people come and go in my CG (some to other CGs) and nobody ever says a word, including the CGL. “Stuff” happens in peoples lives and noby ever talks about it here. While we shouldn’t slander, gossip, etc., we do need to share our experiences with one another. Especially if a church or leadership of a church is bad, someone needs to say something so that others aren’t harmed. Mistakes happen. Admit it, pray for one another, repent if necessary, and everyone should move on towards sanctification. If it involves other churches, then so be it. Repent, change and all will learn (hopefully). If it’s a long term issue where sin has continued and others defiled by leadership, then discipline is necessary such as seems to be the case in Richmond. I’ve seen discipline used since I’ve been here in this church. This complete lack of communication seems to do nothing but foster gossip and rumor. Besides, how can you prayfor someone more specifically if nobody talks. Maybe the CGLs talk amongst themselves but I have no way to know.
If there is a grievance against another, why can’t we go before the saints? (1 Cor 6)Whether GE is in leadership or not, he is a brother.
If there’s a rebuttal regarding what happened in Richmond, then respond point-by-point and both sides should be heard. To just call something “slanderous” means you have no other defense other than to name call.
Roanoker, awesome post!!!!!!!!!!
Awesome post is right, Stunned! Roanoker sees clearly and with no SGM eclesiastical spin. Stick to that straight forward thinking, Roanoker!
Roanoker – agreed with the others!
It seems you have exposed the nature of the “emperor’s” nakedness!
Where is the humble transparency we have all heard preached over and over?
Roanoker, thank you so much for sharing. You have given a clear picture of real integrity in fellowship.
So any update on when the Peacemaker recommendations are due?
As been said before, Kingsway can choose whether or not to follow the Peacemaker recommendations. Gene Emerson is a part of the group (actually the leader) that ultimately decides whether to accept the group’s recommendations (remember Dave Harvey’s message on “elder rule”).
With this being the case, I wonder if Gene Emerson will recuse himself from the decision making process especially if Peacemakers recommends that Gene Emerson step down due to his actions disqualifying him from being a pastor/elder? I would doubt it but recusing himself from the decision would be the proper thing to do. Of course the proper thing to have done would have been for Gene to step down originally when what he did came to light. With that in mind I really doubt Gene will recuse himself.
Thus what we will in all likelihood have is Gene Emerson leading the team that decides whether to follow or not follow the Peacemaker recommendations when one recommendation might include Gene’s stepping down. Thus it looks like Gene may be his own judge or be the leader of the group of judges. I wonder how objective these other “elder/pastors” can be when the know that if they don’t force him to step down there may be retribution since if that happens Emerson will still be their boss? If the scenario I am suggesting might happens, it doesn’t really look good for an objective impartial decision to happen at Kingsway.
Yes, Steve240— We still await the conclusions of Peacemakers in the KingsWay trial.
Peacemakers– many are watching for your verdict. There is skepticism that you will rightly stand for Godly justice on behalf of SW. Also, we are watching for how you will address the fact that SW has now also become a defendant for his own “motives”, since SGM has accused him, in their customary way, of a personal “agenda”.
The deflection SGM operates in is NOT unnoticed. The root of the “issues” (as GE has cavalierly named his own church upheaval) is about the Senior Pastor who lied about and maligned a fellow Believer and former pastor—for 10 years—and denied the defendants advocates to bring truth to the congregation.
So, Peacemakers—-Will you reflect SGM and spin spin spin???
We pray you have spine spine spine…and make a stand for Godly righteousness
And not allow the $1000′s SGM has donated to you become a variable in your decision.
Proverbs 10: 10– “Unequal weights and unequal measures are both alike
an abomination to the Lord.”
We wonder— what will it be, KingsWay and SGM leadership and Peacemakers?
I Corinthians 5:8– The yeast of malice and wickedness……..or……..
the bread of sincerity and TRUTH.” ??????????????
Waters
It will be interesting to see what Peacemakers has to say about the happenings at Kingsway? Will they turn the events and put blame on SW for being “unforgiving” as others have suggested. If so, that would be the typical SGM “turn the tables” approach. Instead of focusing on what Gene did, point out SW’s possible issues with forgiveness as the real issue.
As I recently said, even if Peacemakers comes up with a just decision, right now Gene Emerson is the one heading the group that will decide if Kingsway follows or doesn’t follow the Peacemakers recommendations. With that being the case, one wonders just how objective the decision will be when they may be deciding against Gene Emerson. It is like Gene getting to be his own judge.
It is baffling that SGM doesn’t step in more here. Maybe they could have done something to prevent the reported 1/2 of the church leaving.
I’ve been listening to the message Dave Harvey gave at KW entitled “Peter, Polity and Us”.
Dave says he has, “No authority in this local church”. While Dave may be speaking truthful regarding KingsWay specifically, I do believe he would be GE’s “boss” in relation to GE’s oversight of other churches. If GE indeed can’t “manage his own household well” (his own church) then should he be counseling other pastors and their CGL’s? Personally, if what has been reported here is true, I do not want him overseeing my pastors and CGL anytime soon.
Later Dave says, “Little gets resolved in public meetings” “Might be wise to save the public meetings for the intended biblical purpose for public meetings which is to address the unrepentant sinner.”
“Congregations in the New Testament are not called upon to arbitrate matters.” “That’s not what this church is.” “This church is an elder lead local church”
If something big comes up in our family, do we not call a family meeting so that we can share information, receive questions and seek direction for moving forward? Why do this “If you have questions, ask your pastor thing” unless you’re playing divide and conquer?
Aren’t we a “Family of churches”, “Family of God”? There are lots of references to family.
And our “family”, our SGM churches, have been well taught over the years regarding forgiveness, grace, sin, humility, pride, care for one another, etc.
Is the family not trusted? Are we not able to exercise Godly discernment and care (discipline, if necessary, with the goal of restored fellowship) for one another if one is caught in a fault?
Being so well taught, can we not be trusted to inquire as a body, publically, with grace and forgiveness, keeping in view God’s overall purposes? We know better than to seek personal vengeance.
Let’s say there are some important issues going on here in my home. To exclude the family (or spouse) and purposefully avoid seeking the input of family (or spouse) is just plain foolish. Besides, it’s potentially full of pride and arrogance.
Things just don’t add up here.
Dave uses 1 Peter 5:1-5 as his text and quotes that an elder should be an “example to the flock”. If I wrongly accused my wife of a sin for ten years, told her that she was no longer qualified for certain jobs within the home and forbade her to speak to anyone about it, how do you think that would go over?
If you can’t be an example to the flock, and I’m not talking the typical SGM definition used to fire a disagreeing pastor, then you need to step down until the flock can trust you to be an example again.
From what I understand, BD in Charlotte had significant issues and is now gone. It is reported that GE has significant issues and it has been reported that half his flock has left. This is the best SGM can produce for leadership? How is that elder led thing workin’ out for ya?
Hopefully my pastors here in Roanoke are questioning what SGM has given to them for leadership. It doesn’t appear that they have been provided with model examples of true leadership.
Roanoker said:
I commented earlier (maybe before you started reading this blog) that Dave Harvey could have created a lot more peace if he stated that even though it might be a local elder run church, SGM Corporate is going to do its own investigation into this and push to have the correct thing done. Sadly it was more like Dave Harvey was “washing his hands” of any responsibility for what occurred there. One just wonder if what has happened since Harvey’s message including the reported 1/2 of the congregation leaving might not have happened had Harvey taken more of a hands on vs. hands off approach here.
Maybe SGM including Harvey has no legal authority to do anything but they certainly can weigh in. If SGM concluded that it was the proper thing for Gene Emerson to step down then I am sure SGM could put pressure on for Gene to step down. This pressure could include Mahaney himself calling for Gene Emerson to step down.
Just a thought.
Thanks, Steve240.
I was just stunned at the limitations that Dave places on “public meetings”. It’s like, “I know you’re hurt and you have questions, but we’re not going to allow a public forum.” “Your ‘edlers’ will handle it.”
It’s such a departure from how we are expected to run our personal lives – open and before others, actively seeking input.
Defining what the congregation would be allowed to do seemed like nothing more than a smackdown to me. Fuel to the fire.
Again, I ask the question: Is this the best leadership SGM has to offer to me and my local pastors?
If this is it, the system is broken.
Roanoker
Harvey’s strategy of not offering “family meetings” sounded like a classic divide and conquer. Put another way they wouldn’t want a family meeting where one member brought a concern that made other members think and start to have the same concern. I wonder if Peacemakers will comment on this “strategy?”
With the reported half of the membership leaving it sure sounds like it didn’t work.
Roanoker,
SGM Happy Place simply continues in their status quo of operations whilst attempting new presentations/facades of their leaderships “standing-in-the-very-stead-of God” rulership.
At the KingsWay meeting, Dave Harveys’ posture of taskmaster represented the polity of
SGM authoritarian control. This is nothing new, and it is obvious they are communicating their committment to continuing in this standing.
For more insights to history repeating itself, there is a wonderful post on Refuge from “Esther” (the Chesapeake Story) in January ( ’09 I think) entitled: “Open letter to
Steve Shank,Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson, and CJ Mahaney”. ‘Esther’ testifies of the
‘apostles’ (as they then called themselves) callous actions and lack of response to the cries of help from one of their congregants (a faithful Godly member of nearly 20 years).
Harvey, Shank, and Emerson all emulate the very exact responses we hear of in the present day KingsWay case. In her open letter to the ‘apostles’, Esther, in her gracious manner, opens the Word of God to bring truth in these matters of congregational confrontations. I hope you will have some time to read it—it is a wisdom-filled and revelatory letter.
Keep seeing and seeking, Roanoker!
Thanks, Waters.
Actually, I found Esther’s story a few days back via a simple Google search and that, along with Charlotte and Richmond (and there appear to be many more) prompted my question of “Is this the best leadership SGM has to offer to me and my local pastors?”
If so, then the system is broken.
Leadership worth emulating needs to be open, honest, seeking wisdom from whatever direction God brings it…
Why does this leadership live out something other than what is expected from the rest of us?
Proverbs is ringing in my head:
“…abundance of counselors there is safety.”
“…but with many advisers they succeed.”
“…abundance of counselors there is victory.”
My dictionary defines abundance as, “great plenty”, “more than enough”.
Where is the abundance of counselors to be found in these matters?
I found out yesterday that a dear friend of mine is looking for another church. Sadly, I don’t believe I can recommend ours as long as it has this kind of “oversight”.
True, Roanoker, the SGM system is indeed broken…warped……..twisted……….
SGM would probably define their abundance of counselors as their:
‘Elders’ (formerly known as pastors) and
‘Regional Overseers’ (formerly known as apostles) and
all the leaders on Gaithersburg hill
Problem is, they are indoctrinated in robotic thinking. Also, because they believe they “stand in the very stead of God”, they believe they are able to operate as master controler over everything—including counseling. (They’ve left a lonnnng trail of
casualties there)
Their ‘abundance of counselors’ seek to DOMINATE the flock,although they trumpet themeslves as “servant leaders”.
Personally, I believe they have grieved the Holy Spirit, and we are seeing the consequences of their prideful ‘authority’. Holy Spirit brings D I S C E R N M E N T
We all, as Believers have the ability, as we lean into and seek Him, to be lead by Him and discern…………especially in the midst of smokescreens, spinnings, and deceptions (all of which SGM leadership operates in).
Roanoker, you asked; “Why does this (SGM) leadership live out something other than what is expected from the rest of us?”
Why, indeed?
They do not reflect the attributes of The Good Shepherd
Perhaps you will have opportunity to address your concerns with your friend who is looking for another church — we are exhorted to warn our Brethren of spiritual dangers.
Especially when something can look so right on the outside…….but the leaven within is a real poison.
I pray the Lord will continue to bring you keen discernment….to continue to see truths
Raonoker said:
“Actually, I found Esther’s story a few days back via a simple Google search and that, along with Charlotte and Richmond (and there appear to be many more) prompted my question of “Is this the best leadership SGM has to offer to me and my local pastors?””
With regard to the leaders they have in place being the best leadership that SGM has to offer, one thought is that both Steve Shank and Gene Emerson appear to be in their positions due to both men being around since the start of the group and maybe not necessarily due to their being the (most) qualified for these positions. It would be analogous to someone that started with a retail chain as a clerk when it was small and is now a regional manager. The person might have been placed as regional manager due to the chain’s growth vs. the person being the (most) qualified for the position.
Thus some of these leaders may be in the position they are in due being with the group since its beginning vs. being qualified for the position they are in.
Just a possibility.
Re:Emerson & Shank: They certainly know how to “talk the talk” don’t they?
In my mind the 800# gorilla…or the naked emperor…is that both live OUTside of the G’burg spotlight, and can certainly phone in their necessary confessions of sin but CLEARLY don’t really and truly answer to anyone locally. Whether it was the Holy Spirit or my own brain telling me that the (fired) pastor in south-Denver was just a micro-version to Shank as Shank is, to Mahaney/Harvey. He must have had phone-in, to Gilbert AZ accountability sessions, right? So, doesn’t it make sense that Emerson and Shank have phone-in accountability sessions? And therefore the so-called sins confessed are left up to the sinful heart and mind of the confessor, if I’m correct.
Whether or not I am correct in the way I see this, Mahaney/Harvey are still condemned because either they know and are condemned for their cruelty, or because they don’t know and their leadership is feckless.
I’m not sure if anyone has mentioned the upcoming weekend at KingsWay, but I wanted to be sure folks knew and could pray. The Conciliator from Peacemakers Ministries comes back Friday morning (tomorrow) to have some more meetings with ‘the guys’ and to share his feedback/input. Lastly, this Conciliator (Paul Cornwell) will be speaking on Sunday morning so that could be a message that others will want to hear.
Please be praying for this weekend — pray for all the hearts involved. This is a prime opportunity for a miracle — pray for humility to replace pride, for honesty to replace deceit, for God-centeredness to replace self-centeredness. Our God is in the business of making His Name great and glorious!!
There are obvious patterns in SGM — let’s ask God to reign and rule in this weekend and to break the yokes that are so clearly not of Him!!! He is purifying for Himself a Bride that He is returning for — the Body of Christ at large. He has been kind and faithful to bring so much into the light at KingsWay! Let’s not forget that this ‘mess’ is a result of sin — and yet seeing this mess and hearing about it is a result of God’s care for this church. Sanctify this church, Lord Jesus!
Defended, I betcha any phone-in-accountability between any of them would be so full of flowery talk and spinning, punctuated with the declaration of their “oh wretched man that I am” spiel……… all parties would, at all times, be completely satisfied with their very humble and contrite ‘posture’. ——- If this is not the case—then we would be hearing
the cry of sorrow and repentance and public dismantling of arrogant leaders and
destructive SGM polity……….nope, we only hear the sound of the wheels that keep on
a ‘turnin….keeping the SGMers in their burdensome yoke…..
Oh Lord,deliver Your people from the SGM yoke You didnot bid them come under.
Cause them to remember their first love…..and run to You….The Good Shepherd
Carol,
THANKYOU SO MUCH for letting us know this important status!
Will be praying praying praying…………
Waters, this phone-in type of accountability is the only way I can explain or understand the idea of a (so-called) pastor having (or hiding) a sexual sin for years and then having it not even come up when he was eventually fired. Did his “apostle” know? I have no idea. I don’t even understand how the men around him, whom he did confess to could continue to see him as their leader. But that’s why I wonder what the so-called apostles are leaving out of their phonecalls of accountability?
Carol
Thanks for the heads up on this weekend at Kingsway. It will be interesting to hear what Paul Cornwell has to say. You made a good list of what people need to pray for.
Hopefully the sin will be identified and dealt with vs. actions being white washed. If that doesn’t happen then it wouldn’t surprise me if even more people leave Kingsway than the reported 1/2 of the congregation already leaving. That this many people have already reportedly left sadly says a lot.
One other thought that occurred to me on this that there must be some string or assurance that Paul Cornwell has given the leaders of Kingsway for him to be allowed to speak this sunday. It really doesn’t make sense to me that they are allowing him to speak unless they already know the verdict or there was some agreement that Paul Cornwell would only give a generic message on Peacemakers vs. sharing in his message what Peacemakers’ recommendations are, especially if the recommendations go against the Kingsway Leaders.
Maybe they know the verdict? Maybe there is an agreement to speak only about something generic or in general terms about the Peacemaker process. Maybe he will speak about forgiving leaders but not about the need for leaders to repent and even step down for a period when their actions have disqualified them as leaders.
I am sure that the Kingsway Leaders wouldn’t want to allow a speaker like this to speak when there is the risk of him acknowledging that the Kingsway Leaders were wrong and he might even conclude (as has been brought up before here) that Gene Emerson is disqualified as a leader. There must be some strings on Kingsway allowing Gene Emerson to speak.
Sadly this really doesn’t seem to make sense or that some things that need to be done will be done.
Carol, Will you be able to let us know some of the outcomes of the meetings with
Mr Cornwall? We hope to hear from some of the KingsWay posters too….
As you stated, “God has been so kind and faithful to bring so much into the light at KingsWay”. And I believe— the Lord knew He breathed life and was opening eyes of a band of people who would take a stand for Righteousness, who rightly divided the Word of God,and sought to confront a twisted leadership and church polity.
Godly valor have they!
Praying for you, KingsWay, praying………
I posted this over on sgmsurvivors.com and felt that this analogy might explain things a little better.
Yes, half the people at KingsWay have left over the last year. And there are many more that are in attendance that are on the verge of leaving pending the outcome of the meetings this very weekend.
But the interesting thing is that in talking to people that have left, there is a variety of concerns that people have voiced as to why they left or are possibly leaving. My analysis of this is that the true issues lie at the core of the KingsWay and SGM leadership and polity. At the root is a biblical misinterpretation of leadership and the authority and role of a leader. It is like a dead rat in the wall. You walk in and something stinks to high heaven, but you can’t quite identify where it is coming from.
Some folks are more discerning and have been pointing to the problem for years and others are just overcome with the smell and are leaving. Then there are others that have just gotten used to it and feel a need to stay because they feel a part of a family or don’t want to give up a position or any variety of reasons.
A new coat of paint will not fix this problem. To rectify this situation will take some demolition and rebuilding. It won’t be pretty and there is a possibility that when the truth is made known, there will not be much left to salvage. Indeed the dead rats are in a load-bearing wall and the whole house will probably come down when it is removed.
To be honest, I will not return to KingsWay unless the entire leadership team is replaced AND the church’s ties with SGM are completely severed. Am I asking too much?
Looking Elsewhere,
Thankyou for sharing this excellent analogy. You’ve really painted a clear picture showing
the reality of the ‘rat in the wall’ — its there—-and it is a spiritual pollutant.
As you stated, at the core of SGM leadership and polity “is a BIBLICAL misinterpretation
of leadership and the authority and role of a leader.”
Saints, this is extremely significant. The SGM polity which is in place has, for years,
operated in authoritarian control—which is NOT their God-given position. As has been stated many times on this forum— they have edged out the leading and discernment of Holy Spirit. A praying friend of mine, who was a part of SGM for over 20 years, grievously stated “SGM has divorced the Holy Spirit.”
Brethren, a new coat of paint—continuous whitewashings and reconstructing polity will NOT
cleanse and renew this family of churches. God had brought serious destructive sins to light — and still— there is no cry of repentance because they SEE.
In Midlothian,they invite Peacemakers to bring reconciliation (????)
In Gaithersburg Josh Harris invites those who have been wounded and mauled over to his house to discuss their grievances. (????)
SGM has been given much time of Grace to repent of their grievous patterns of usurping the Holy Spirit and wounding Gods people. SGM, I pray you will respond and cry out to God. I pray the sins that are still hidden, will be repented of before they are brought into the light of day —that the Name of Jesus and His Blood bought church/the Body will not be repugnant to the unsaved because of your actions.
No Looking Elsewhere, you are not asking too much. The root of the Kingsway problem is the same root problem that is found in all the SGM churches and it starts at the very top of the movement and flows down. As long as these pastors are willing to submit to the leadership above them and continue to be a part of SGM, the problems will continue and these “churches” will continue to be toxic, unhealthy and sadly corrupt groups calling themselves “churches” of Jesus Christ. There is always hope and when we see the pastors of Kingsway step down and the people left pull out of SGM then we will know that things MAY change. I wonder, if this were to happen, how long would it take for the old SGM culture to change?
Looking Elsewhere
Maybe Gene Emerson’s actions (and lack of proper action) is what finally opened a number of members eyes to what was really going on at Kingsway and the failure of the group’s polity, especially its hierarchy with little checks and balances. It will be interesting to hear if even more people leave Kingsway.
With the reported 1/2 of the congregation leaving Kingsway one would think that the Kingsway Leaders as well as SGM Leaders would be taking time in prayer to seek God and be open to maybe they are doing the wrong thing vs. assuming all these members leaving are wrong. On the other hand, sadly Kingsway and SGM Leaders may see this as a necessary “pruning” that allows Kingsway to get rid of the people that question etc. Perhaps that is what Kingsway really wants?
Steve240 – very keen insight. Nobody is allowed to have the pulpit unless they are in the SGM/PDI house of representatives. That in itself should speak volumes to those who are wondering if Peacemakers is unbiased. There is no way they can be. It doesn’t mean they don’t have the ability to mediate but let us not be stupid.
It appears to me to be a sham; from the outside looking in from those who used to be the inside looking out. It speaks to an attitude of “Let’s say whatever we need so we can pick things up in such a way that we can continue to do same things the way we always done. Very very sad!!!!
Hey fellow saints. I shared some of my thoughts a few months ago on this site about how I had also experienced the legalism of Metro Life Church in the Orlando area and from the SGM leadership from Maryland, even though I was never a member of the group, thank God. Your plight inspired me to share a few messages recently that I hope are a blessing to you. They are entitled:
1. Leaders, Legalism and Spiritual Abuse
2. What is the Gospel?
3. The False Doctrine of Indwelling Sin in the Believer (Part 1 and 2)
They are on my web site: http://www.seeinggrace.com
Be encouraged. You are working your way out of a maze and it just takes time to really break free from the manipulation of man. Jesus Himself is our Life. He is everything and He is better than we ever imagined. If God is for you (and He certainly is), then who or what can be against you?
Love you,
James
jbarronatty@aol.com
We are watching to see–
Will Peacemakers ENABLE KingsWay/SGM to, as Irv stated:
“Lets say whatever we need so we can pick up in such a way that we can continue to do the SAME things the way we have ALWAYS done.”
Outcome: Retain GE, retain SGM polity, retain chasm between laity and leadership
……..and load up the wagons for the new church plant headed up by KB……….
(Thereby creating yet another Stepford culture)
…………………………….or……………………
Repentance and sorrow on the part of SGM leadership—D Harvey, CJ Mahaney, J Harris, G Emerson, K Breault… for lies, deceptions, maligning, and manipulative control
of congregants???
Outcome: Dismantling the walls which contain the pollutant SGM polity which have birthed
“The Family of Churches known as Sovereign Grace Ministries”
KingsWay saints……..remember we serve Jesus, the King of Glory………..
Steve 240, you are so right when you speak of the pruning! Certainly SG wants all those who disagree to leave. That is why when you disagree or question their doctrines, polity, etc, they show you the door with a clear exit strategy!! Go now!!
Let’s not forget the new SGM church plant to Charleston, SC spearheaded by Charlotte which is also under Gene’s oversight.
I hate to ask but…can anyone tell us what happened with Peacemakers & Kingsway?
It has been quiet since the Sunday meeting where the Peacemakers representative was to speak at Kingsway. I am wondering if this is due to posts yet to be approved or people being quiet.
Last I looked at the Kingsway website they haven’t posted this past sunday’s message given by the Peacemakers representative. Maybe Protestant’s comment about this happening made Kingsway Leadership reluctant to share that message. As I shared before, I am guessing if they were willing to have this person speak then they were pretty sure he wasn’t going to say anything that extreme about Kingsway’s Leaders and their sin.
Hopefully soon someone will post on what is going on. Hopefully what PD requested people to pray for actually happened and the right godly and scriptural things were done. If so, the group Peacemakers did what the claim they do otherwise they just worked to protect churches and leaders vs. doing the right thing.
Steve240:
KingsWay doesn’t always post the messages right away. And this isn’t out of character for these types of adminsitrative (technical) duties. In other words, I don’t think they are delaying on purpose. And it’s possible that they don’t have all the technical staff they used to.
We have a Covered Dish Luncheon scheduled for December 5th. These are normal. Might also be a good time for a brief Family Meeting to keep us up-to-date re: BD, GE, etc. and where WE are going as a church (similar to the question asked at CLC recently and if this has changed the relationship with SGM.
If we don’t have a Family Meeting in conjuntion with the luncheon, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt in that maybe they could be reconsidering the long-term relationship with SGM in light of the poor character in the oversight we’ve had so far. (And character supposedly means everything in SGM-land.)
But as members of SGCC Roanoke, we deserve honest, straightforward communication and I’ll add the right to ask hard questions. If the pastors are distributing some of the church’s money to SGM (and they do), then we should be fully informed in all things SGM related. Now that’s accountability.
Steve240, We’ve also been checking KingsWay website to hear Sundays message from Mr Cornwall, however they still show Nov 14 as “the most recent sermon”.
Obviously, they are attempting to hide the proclomations given by the Peacemaker representative. Why, I wonder? Ironically, I was just reading the story of Jonah wilth my granddaughter last week — she incredulously asked “but why did he try to hide when
God sees everything all the time anyway?”……….
And—because God is God, He sees to it that that which is hidden becomes revealed.
Why? Because He doesnot dwell in shifting shadows and secrets– He shatters
darkness with Light. Which brings forth Truth.
Lord, shed Your unhindering Light into every aspect which Peacemakers and SGM leadership were confronted with in the KingsWay upheaval. Uphold the band of Believers who stand for Godly righteousness and were advocates for their Brethren who had been maligned and abused by SGM leadership. Uphold them Lord, in Your unfailing love.
In the Name of Jesus, the King of Glory,our Savior and Redeemer.
Update
Kingsway now has the message by the Peacemaker’s on their website for either listening or dowloading. I haven’t listened to the message yet but the title of the message is “Forgiveness.” One can imagine from the title what the speaker is promoting.
The message, on Forgiveness, from Sunday is on the Kingsway site.
(matt 10:16)
Folks:
If you want to listen to Paul Cornwell, the message is available on the Kingsway website.
Re. this past Sunday at Kingsway. All I know is: 1 – confidentiality agreements were signed 2 – sermon was on forgiveness and apparently some people were in tears. Not sure that this definitely means what it seems to mean, but . . . it isn’t what I had hoped for.
Yes we are all called to forgive those who have sinned against us. However, the issue at Kingsway is clearly that Gene Emerson has disqualified himself from pastoral ministry. Scriptures such as Titus 2: 7 & 8 as well 1 Timothy 3: 2-7 clearly indicate that Gene Emerson can no longer stay in his current positions of leading Kingsway as well as the other regional churches. In order for SGM churches to hold any credibility within the Christian community, they must follow biblical principles, especially for their pastors and leaders.
“Confidentiality agreements were signed”?
In a church? I do believe the author of the Bible, God Himself, was completely open about the lives of His people – the good, the bad, and the ugly.
In David’s life alone, God used Nathan to expose what he tried to hide and then the whole thing was written down and documented for all eternity in order that all believers would take note and be constantly on guard against sin.
This sounds really, really wrong.
Awwwwwww, man.
Too bad he didn’t speak on repentance.
Or rather I wish it were about Forgiving and Learning Whom is Worthy of Our Trust and Who is Not
Why do people sign these confidentiality things?
What would have happened if they had not signed?
Were they threatened with some adverse reaction?
Did anyone choose to opt out?
If so, what happened to them? Were they forced to leave?
How ironic is it that they were forced to sign something and then coerced to sit through a message on forgiveness?
Has anyone listened to the sermon? I’ve downloaded but haven’t had a chance to listen yet. I have been told that it is a fine sermon by an outstanding preacher with years of church pastoring experience; that confidentiality agreements were signed not by the congregation, but by Peacemakers and the participants in the mediation, which is standard operating procedure for Peacemakers, and that the sermon will answer alot of questions. I plan to listen before making any comments — don’t want to jump to conclusions — and still, always — praying for the best.
Here is a link to the message:
http://www.kingswayaudio.com/?p=452
Let’s understand very clearly what has happened before our eyes. We have been hoodwinked, bamboozled and deceived. Bob, Buddy and Steve spent a year trying to convince Gene that what he did 10 years ago was wrong. All we got was a controlled, orchestrated show in a family night where Gene sort of confessed to Steve that he had wronged him and asked forgiveness. Bob, Steve and Buddy understood that there was so much more to the story than was spoken that night. There is the trail of legalism and ruined lives. There is the oddball PDI/SGM theology on leadership. There are the bad decisions and lack of discernment. There are lies such as Gene telling the congregation that he decided to recant his decision to make 25 year old Matthew the Executive Pastor…essentially his heir apparent… and then leave him in that position anyway. (Who is really in charge there at KingsWay?)
So, as the congregation at KingsWay see the problems and wants them to be fixed, Gene calls Peacemakers in. Now the congregation hopes that the third party will see the problems and help to make things right. Instead they get delays and then the focus turns to the relationships between the pastors and Bob, Steve and Buddy. And everything is focused on seeking forgiveness. While I feel that seeking forgiveness is important, the issues with KingsWay as well as the rest of Sovereign Grace are way more important. And they are not going to be dealt with, people of KingsWay. All you will get is to be made to feel guilty for your sin: the lack of forgiveness. Until you can get that right, you cannot move forward. It is the same old tactic.
And as was reported, they “have more work to do.” and so this thing will drag on and on.
Remaining people at KingsWay, how can you stay there? I guess if you have a vested interest such as being a Community Group Leader or hold a coveted Worship Team position or are just sentimental about all the people that you would be leaving behind. But do you lack the discernment to see that there are problems at the root and foundation of this ministry. Stay if you want to, but I for one am out of there. Enough is enough.
After two full days of mediation (8am – 10 or 11 pm each day) several things happened:
1. Gene and one of the “band of brothers” reconciled
2. Another “issue” or more information came to light and so the mediation process will continue sometime into January because they are taking December off.
3. All the members involved in the mediation process signed confidentiality agreements and the congregation was told not to ask any of the men any questions because they would not be able to answer them.
Square Peg
I was able to listen to most of the message and plan to listen to it again.
The speaker did indicated the confidentiality agreement was for those involved in the reconciliation. The speaker indicated that more work still had to be done (they weren’t done with all of the reconciliation discussions). One smaller example of reconciliation was presented between Gene Emerson and another person (not with the person he withheld the truth about for 10 years).
The speaker did indicate he had a good sense that reconciliation would occur here but said more work still had to be done.
I still wonder how Peacemakers will address (or even gets involved with) what I and others see as Gene Emerson currently being disqualified as a pastor/elder due to his actions? Will Peacemakers be quiet or will they make a recommendation in this area?
The confidentiality agreements are only for the participants in the peacemaking process. Also, that process is only related to their personal disagreements and offenses, so I think they only agreed not to talk about that. I don’t think we need to know about their personal dealings. I had just hoped for some sort of resolution that would give people the clarity or the freedom they have been looking for to make some decisions about SGM and/or KWCC. A lot of people are in limbo there! The reactions to the sermon that I heard (and they all indicated that the sermon was very good, encouraging, etc) made me concerned that the real, underlying issues are being lost. I could be wrong! I hope I am!
Square Peg:
Good questions. Unfortunately, I did jump to conclusions.
I did listen (after my post) and you’re right, confidentiality agreements were signed by the participants – the eight men. And Paul mentions them in this order: Buddy, Steve, Bob, Aaron, Keith, Matt, Gene and Doug. I plan on listening again but I believe the agreements are more about who said what when and how they responded.
Paul also mentions that he has met with these eight men both individually and corporately. He says that they met from 8:00am to 11:00pm Friday and 8:00am to 10:15pm Saturday.
I overreacted in my comments about confidentiality agreements and what they referred to. I should have listened before posting.
Paul asks for patience as there is more to be done. The men made a public written statement which Paul read. It included gratefulness for prayers on their behalf and that the grace of God has been evident and that there has been personal reconciliation. They acknowledge that there is still much work to do and that they are committed to finishing that work.
That fact that they are still working through this is a good sign, I think.
And yes, Square Peg, it is a fine sermon on forgiveness. A good reminder of what forgiveness is and that it does not include vengeance.
The sermon, for me, did not provide details on where they go from here. In other words, no real details.
If you find details that I missed, please do share.
Praying for the best….(as Square Peg stated). Gene Emerson has a history of sinning against individuals in the congregation and the congregation as a whole. I pray that he will do the right thing and step down! This is not only the right thing to do but the loving thing to do!
Change is NOT in the air!!!
This is the statement Paul Cornwell read that he indicated the 8 men agreed to after their 2 day meeting with Paul.
”
First we know many of you have been diligently praying for us. We are deeply grateful to God for this. Thank you for this supportive role. We believe the progress we have made is in large part due to your prayers. We are deeply grateful to God for His kindness to us. We experienced the grace of God these last few days. We saw several instances of personal reconciliation. We still need your prayers. We have more work to do. We are committed to finishing that work. ”
Hopefully this is truly a sign of progress. Paul did talk a lot about the need for forgiveness. I do hope that this valid principle isn’t twisted and used against people that were offended (including SW who Gene withheld the truth about for 10 years).
Paul did talk about the need for godly sorrow for the person who sins against another person. It was pointed out that this is many time what is missing as part of the forgiveness reconciliation process. This included the offender understanding the impact of their actions and the consequences of their sin.
Hopefully the above needs will be applied to Gene Emerson and the impact of his lying on the person he withheld the truth about for 10 years. Gene Emerson certainly needs godly sorrow about the impact of his withholding of the truth, especially the impact of it on a person’s life. Gene should also see how his much of his credibility as a pastor/elder has been lost due to his actions. This loss of credibility is another reason he should step down for at least a season.
The speaker also talked about getting to the heart of why someone did what they did and not just the actions. In principle this is good but we have seen how this can twisted in SGM and used against people were offended as a way to deflect criticism from the offender. Hopefully this type of introspection will occur with Gene Emerson and won’t be used against those offended as happens within SGM. What is the “heart issue” that would cause Gene Emerson to do what he did for especially this long of a time period.
Time will tell what happens here. It sounds like Paul Cornwell is sincere and brings a lot to the table for reconciliation but am skeptical that the right thing will be done.
I think it’s a stall tactic and a bunch of Bull (imho)…you have a group of public teachers/elders in the church who have agreed amongst themselves to only talk about these issues among themselves…ie secrecy and out of view of their own congregation.
Wake up people…maybe they should all go on unpaid leave until they can come fully clean, in public and in writing to all concerned parties that have been hurt or were neglectful in their roles as elders/leaders/ pastor/Apostle in this church. To continue in a public/ authority position in the church, but without the obligation to be accountable to the public they serve is a dangerous precedent….one that is seen often in SGM. More of the same I fear…..
Musicman
This certainly may be a “stall tactic” as you suggest. They keep ignoring the scriptural mandate of qualifications for an elder/pastor. That certainly is baffling.
Maybe some work on “reconciliation will occur before January without this Peacemaker representative being down there.
Yes, forgiveness is always right–no question. And Gene is truly a brother in Christ! With that being said, I would NEVER sit under his leadership again. I would love him, welcome him into my care group, small group, or whatever they call them thesedays, but leadership, continuing as senior pastor, and heaven help us, an ”apostle!!!!”–are we nuts????? Really!! Forgiveness is one thing, the direction I sense Kingsway going in is quite another. Christians (I am one) are kind,gentle and quick to turn the page on wrongs, which is evidence of God’s grace living in and through them. I celebrate that! I also know that man will do almost anything to save his vocation, ie his revenue source. Oh how I hate to write that and hope I am wrong, very wrong, but I really sense BS and damage control and sweet words that we all want to believe. I do but have MAJOR doubts. I know Gene! Gene at least step down from the pinnacle of sr. pastor and work under Aaron. Show that you need work and renewal. Better yet seek out those you have damaged and hurt, which could take some time.
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM said:
“Gene at least step down from the pinnacle of sr. pastor and work under Aaron.”
The problem is that Aaron is just as guilty as Gene as are the other 3 pastors. They were fully aware of all that was done to SW, and all of the other abuses, lies etc. that have been done over the years. All of these men have been begged by strong believers in KW to repent, to stand for truth and to call the other ones out and they have refused. They have continued to stand together and lie for each other and lie to all of the members of KW. They truly believe that they “stand in the stead of God” for us and that they are above the members of the body. They have said that Matthew 18 does not apply to them because they are pastors and therefore exempt from that scripture.
As for sermons and teachings and words; a wise person will not listen to their words but look to the actions of these men.
God’s Word (Mat 7:20) tells us that “by their fruit they will be known.” It’s clear what the fruit of the apostle is……….
N.S.L.B.
Matthew is next in the line of succession anyway.
I have seen a few people comment on what really happened at Kingsway. One thing those in the know could do (vs. just posting the information here) is to write Paul Cornwell and share with him what you know. He needs to hear especially from current and former members about Gene Emerson’s sin and be asked why Gene is still a pastor when his actions have disqualified him.
Maybe if Paul Cornwell gets this feedback Kingsway won’t be able to use Peacemakers as a means to “white wash” the sins of the pastors. We certainly don’t want Paul Cornwell to not have all of the information on what happened at Kingsway. If Paul has this information it would be harder for him to look the other way with Gene Emerson’s blatant sin.
My email address is listed on my blog page if you need it.
Who pays/paid for SGM and Mr. Cornwell’s service and input?
Defended
From what I have heard Peacemakers doesn’t do their work for free. I am guessing that Kingsway is paying for Mr. Cornwell’s time etc.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that PeaceMakers is dealing with this not as a church issue but as an issue between 8 individual men – seeking reconciliation between those 8.
Eyes Opening – That is my understanding as well. I am left wondering – what are those still in Kingsway hoping will happen as a result of PeaceMakers and how long are they willing to wait to see if it happens? Does anybody really believe that what is happening now will have an impact on the fundamental problems of control and manipulation at Kingsway? If people see the problems, why are they staying? If someone has an answer, I would like to know.
If Peacemakers is only going to deal with reconciliation between these 8 men, it sounds like they won’t be addressing Gene’s actions and that these actions disqualified him from being a pastor.
Hello all — we’ve been out of town for the holiday— Hope you all enjoyed a blessed Thanksgiving!
Eyes Opening and Grace and Steve240 –
As I listened to the message given by Mr Cornwall at the Sunday meeting — I just had to take a ‘break’. I was struck with a deep sadness, and just needed time to think, pray…
Mr Cornwall is, I believe, sincerely passionate about restoring relatioships within the body of Christ…and walking in peace with one another and without angst or animosity towards a Brethren. He is gifted in sifting through “heart issues” and getting to the motive of a persons actions. This is the heart of Peacemakers Ministry. Probably many of us know of and are aware of the good reports of their reconciliation ministry within the church.
The KingsWay ‘conflict’, in my perspective, does NOT come under the category of resolving personal conflict issues, digging for heart motives, and extending forgiveness. These would all be characterstics to be pursued AFTER a person in leadership, a pastor, has been examined and held to scriptural accountability for sins against his own people/congregation/Brethren. The person in leadership would need to step aside for a season for his own time of repentance … and for the congregants to be healed and restored and have the t i m e to trust in said pastoral leader.
When I listened to the message given by Mr Cornwall, I could “hear” the silent sadness of the congregants. Mr Cornwall was upbeat and attempted encouragement. I must say, my heart was weeping with those who were weeping. The tempo of being upbeat seemed terribly out of place. This is a church who has been lied to — for 10 YEARS by their PASTOR.
Yes, Eyes Opening—Sovereign grace Ministries called upon Peacemakers Ministries to intervene on their behalf — so that the sins of the leadership and pastor would not be held accountable. Instead, with Peacemakers involvement, the tables are now turned, to the issues of each mans sinful heart motives and the need for forgiveness.
As Mr Cornwall stated, now the 8 men are going through a process to “understand what God is doing in THEIR hearts, and what is their motive.”
Thus,a successful deflection has taken place — the 8 men are now signed into confidentiality, as Mr Cornwall stated: “Don’t talk about the proceedings. Pray instead. The transfer of information is not improtant now, but that God is doing His work.”
Also, he warns the congregants of participating in ‘adversarial means’- and not to “allow forgiveneness to be replaced with vengeance.” (????)
The many meetings, hoop-jumping, examining self for sin will continue on. And, SGM hopes the 8 men will forget what brought them all there in the first place. Scripture and tones of humility will be evoked.
Our story held similar characteristics. Our family member was blatantly and obviously sinned against by spouse and SGM pastor. However, family member was required to read the “Peacemakers” book (for several months) and then begin a series of meetings to determine their own “owning” for responsibility of being destructively sinned against. I testify to you that these meetings were spiritually taxing –not in the owning of responsibility but in the constant questioning,with a tone of unbelief (which would be calling us liars)..and their posture of “IF what you are stating occured…” etc etc
The months that this went on caused an underlying attempt by the enemy to confuse us and draw us in to focus on our own sinful heart. BUT GOD. Praying, and with the intercessory prayer of those who have been delivered from SGM, we were able to not only stay the course, but began to SEE, more clearly the deceptiveness, control, and evil pollution within SGM. { I don’t want to go on a trail of our story here, just giving an example of experience}.
King David fell on his face in sorrow and repentance, when Nathan the prophet uncovered his sin before the entire court. King David, the beloved king and Psalmist.
Scripture does not record the ‘necessity’ of pursuing heart motives of Nathan, or any of the myriads of both palace servants and Bathshebas’ servants.
No, the focus was on the King — who had sinned against his own people. David the King didnot call in several priests or elders to discuss and evaluate and dig for each persons heart motivation in their ‘part’ of the coverups, or question Nathan for his “adversarial judgmental” proclomation. Pure and simple. The King had greatly sinned. Only he is the one standing taking full responsibility.
SGM continues to seek to strengthen their stance and belief that their pastors “stand in the very stead of God.” God, you see, would not be required to bow before any man or any mans accusations, so neither do SGM pastors.
The Blood of Jesus has made available the purchase for every man and woman. To become redeemed, and walk in the Light as He is in the Light. We are co-heirs with Jesus Christ. Sons and daughters of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is the way the truth and the life—- He doesnot set us upon a spinning merry-go-round…..There are no gray areas, shifting shadows with Him.
God’s people at KingsWay need time & ministry of healing and restoration. I pray they will leave the confines of SGM KingsWay to a fellowship of Believers who walk in the love of Jesus Christ and in the Light of His Truth and in the peace of not being controled and manipulated by leadership. Where lies and maligning and destruction are defined as such. Where truth is truth. Jesus is the true Cornerstone. The cornerstone in SGM shows fruit of the wielding of control. Flee. The pollution of leaven in SGM is now insidious.
Thank you Waters!! Excellent post!!
Waters
You just made some really good points. It is sad that Gene Emerson’s sin and need for repentance and stepping down is apparently being lost with the “peacemaking” process between these 8 men.
Paul Cornwell did seem sincere as you indicate. I hope he isn’t used by SGM to “white wash” Kingway Leaders’ sin, especially what Gene Emerson did. Sadly it wouldn’t surprise me if that is what happens.
I would again encourage people to write Mr. Cornwall, especially if you are a member or were a member of Kingsway and give him your view on this situation. Let him know your concern and ask him why it isn’t obvious that scripturally Gene Emerson needs to step down. Maybe if Peacemakers truly sees how SGM has operated here (including SGM leaders such as Dave Harvey) maybe they will reconsider their affiliation with SGM or point out changes that need to be done.
Commenting here may do some good. Letters written to people in authority who might be able to affect change such as Paul Cornwell does even more good.
Waters said, “The KingsWay ‘conflict’, in my perspective, does NOT come under the category of resolving personal conflict issues, digging for heart motives, and extending forgiveness. These would all be characterstics to be pursued AFTER a person in leadership, a pastor, has been examined and held to scriptural accountability for sins against his own people/congregation/Brethren.”
AMEN, Waters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Amen!!!!!
yeah, Waters, you really proclaimed the truth in your last post.
Thank you Jesus for dividing Truth from illusion and divisive slight-of-hand practices.
Waters………..
Your last post speaks so much truth and wisdom.
This whole situation is not about forgiveness…….it’s about the blatantly obvious disqualification of a pastoral leader named Emerson.
N.S.L.B.
Last night I came across a sentence posted last year by Juli:
“SGM is systematically dismantling truth…..for their agenda.”
Saints, this is dangerous doctrine — man control replacing Gods control.
Praying many will awaken………and SEE……
and take courage to extricate, disentangle, from the snare of legalists
(Jesus named Pharisee legaslists: dogs, brood of vipers, white-washed tombs)
We are entering the season of remembering the birth of Jesus the Christ.
He came, wrapped in flesh —— not as The Lawgiver
He came, wrapped in flesh——-heralded as The Savior, The Redeemer
He is The Breath of Heaven ****** The Spirit of Life********
Let us allow none to counterfeit His authority and Life in our redeemed lives
Any thoughts on this?
SquireBoy
To answer SquireBoy,
They discussed the PC, polity and receiving “input” from the church (among other topics). My thought is that we need to totally rethink how our leaders are put into their positions. The current method is a big part of why the abuses are unchecked. Having only paid elders making decisions about their own perpetuation is an obvious conflict of interest. And not recognizing input from membership is unbiblical. I posted earlier on Survivors an excerpt from New Frontiers. I don’t know much about them other than having heard Terry Virgo, but this description sounds much more biblical than than our system which seems to omit the first, fourth (and fifth) parties. The last paragraph, I though particularly relevant to you folks thinking about 10 years ago. . .
It seems four parties are involved in the appointment of Elders. First of all
God (Acts 20 v.28). Secondly, apostolic ministry that is already recognised
(Acts 14 v.23). We ought to add here the role of the Apostolic Delegate such
as Timothy and Titus. Thirdly, other Elders. 1 Timothy 4 v.14 could be a
reference relevant to this. Of course, common sense tells us that fellow
Elders play a key role in approving and accepting a new member of their
team. Finally, the local Church has a role to play. The biblical emphasis on
an Elder having a good reputation and being respected and as a mature
Christian clearly suggests that the local Church has some approval role in the
appointment of Elders. We also have Acts 6 v.1-7 as a model of how the
apostles appointed the next tier of leaders, so perhaps this a guide line for the
appointment of Elders and Deacons.
All the above four parties need to confirm and recognise those being set in as
Elders. We need mechanisms where by the human agents i.e. Apostles,
Elders, local Church can express their convictions about the gifting, calling
and suitability of candidates for Eldership.
Of course, it goes without saying that the man himself must feel called and be
open to the role of being an Elder and his wife must be supportive and happy
that he is taking on that role.
BTW, they also are more biblical in that they recognize the existence of Deacons!
Polity isn’t the root of the problem, but better polity would have kept things from getting so bad in so many places.
SquireBoy,
Last year:
CJM requested letters from former SGMers,reporting pastoral and polity-driven abuses, woundings, and maligning of congregants. Some participants received a letter, or phonecall, or nothing. Some stories were followed up by an Overseer (formerly known as apostle) to investigate charges.
This year:
The long-standing sr pastor in KingsWay has confessed to lying and maligning a church-planting pastor….and leading his own congregants to believe the lies– for 10 years. SGM called in Peacemakers to investigate everyones heart motives and ensure forgiveness is occurring. (Congregants expected to trust sr pastor, continue on, and send out a new church planting team from this diseased church)
In Novemeber:
CLC, flagship big-daddy of the Family of Churches known as SGM, is hosting a grievance meeting at Joshs house to discuss and bring issues. Pass the scones and tea, please.
The merry-go-rounds of meeeeeeeetings, lists, and pastoral control cloaked in the
practiced diction of waxing humility….continues…..
Grievously missing from lists and invitations:
The Wonderful Counselor, The Comforter, The Teacher, The Giver of Gifts, The Helper, The Giver of Truth
And so, leadership continues in meetings and lists, devoid of the most significant component, the dunamis power of Holy Spirit. SGM chooses to keep their idol erected —SGM
I noticed that there was no invitation mentioned for those whom JH KNOWS full well have suffered under authoritarian bullying if not pastoral abuse. If he doesn’t know of this demographic in his flock he is NO shepherd. And the illusion of transparency and accountability is just that: an illusion.
Waters writes:
SGM called in Peacemakers to investigate everyones heart motives and ensure forgiveness is occurring. (Congregants expected to trust sr pastor, continue on, and send out a new church planting team from this diseased church)
….. It is my understanding that PeaceMakers has nothing to do with the congregation. This is strictly an issue between the 5 pastors and the 3 Brothers. That is it. Nothing to do with the people of the congregation who have been hurt by the same polity that allowed GE to do what he did. The incident with GE and SW was not an isolated event – there were other, smaller things that happened in which people were hurt because of the beliefs and practices of KW and SGM churches. This is not being dealt with. At least it isn’t to my knowledge (and my family was one of the ones that was hurt). Yes, reconcilliation between these men would be nice – I believe that God would want that for His children. But after they reconcile — what? PeaceMakers leave and where does that leave the rest of us?
Eyes Opening……….
You said…..”PeaceMakers leave and where does that leave the rest of us?”
Your answer is hidden twice in your question…….LEAVE
N.S.L.B.
Eyes Opening,
I am so saddened over all that has transpired within KingsWay and the deeply disappointing decisions defining the puppeteering control of Soveregn Grace Ministries.
PeaceMakers and SGM will be taking timmmmme to dig deep in all these conciliatory processes— because thats what they do. Although only 8 are officially participants, the trickle-down effect of switching the focus from charges of lying and maligning by a pastor, to questioning of heart motives etc,– will have a door to seep into the minds of the congregants. The successful deflecton has taken place.
Recall ‘MB’s Burden”, posted by PK. And the many letters/postings written by MB and Mike Drewry and some others. — SGM leadership opposes opposes opposes the voices of their brethren who confront issues of church polity and the exposure of pastoral maulings.
The only way SGM leadership could silence the requests for abiding by scriptural admonishment/consequences of an offending SGM pastor, was to bring in PeaceMakers. Peacemakers begins their process of mediations and silenced confidentiality between 8 people, and the congregants are—discarded, and unheard. ——What they have done
is clear for all to see — so very significant. SGM traded their opportunity for repentance and brokeness, for maintaining control and the illusion of humility.
They are what they are.
Flee………leave……..disentangle
Interesting development here -
http://thewartburgwatch.com/20...../#comments
Seems they have received a recorded copy of Gene’s 2001 Family meeting.
Perhaps the peace can now expand in its scope.
Unassimilated,
Thankyou for posting this news —this is billboard light flashing news!
We look forward to hearing/reading the contents of this “Family Meeting”
God IS God
He DOES reveal that which is hidden
He DOES bring Light to ‘shadows’ of deceptions, manipulations, spinnings
As ‘Unassimilated’ posted the info link to Wartburg Watch for excerpts from the
KingsWay Family Meeting of 2001, perhaps many of you have read some of
the context. So very sickeningly sad.
Please, please, Gene Emerson, stop referring to yourself as an ‘elder’ or ‘pastor’ within the church. Your words about Steve did not nourish, your words shredded. No wonder he and his family experienced the infamous SGM cold-shoulder amongst the congregants— Gene led them in doing so.
FOR 10 YEARS
Gene RESISTED Godly men who were advocates to restore and bring truth . And again RESISTED the Band of Brothers who sought to bring Scriptural light and restoration to the maligning of their brother in Christ. WHY WHY would a ‘pastor’ resist truth coming forth?????????????????????????
SGM, please cease using the word “Grace” as your banner. PeaceMakers, please repent of being a tool of deflection for a mauling pastor. Evidently, both SGM and PeaceMakers bask in their illusion of humility I’ll take the Nathans and their prophetic ‘adversarial’ words over the duplicitous manipulations perpetrated by SGM leadership — and their “helpers for peace”.
Saints, Gods is a God of justice—because He IS Truth
FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PeaceMakers, please repent of being a tool of deflection for a mauling pastor.
Waters, or anybody……
Is this over with yet? I mean is it still “in process” and Peacemakers may recommend GE steps down? Is there any stated intention of Peacemakers having GE at the very least make a public statement to the church? As far as you know, is it just being dealt with among leaders?
If the sin happened at a church wide meeting, then the repentance has to happen on the same scale, ie church wide. I find it hard to think Peacemakers will not insist on that.
I have always had a high opinion of Peacemakers and Sande and I am loathe to throw in the towel on that yet, although admittedly I might be in denial.
Is Peace makers meeting with any “lowly” regular people who feel hurt or have lost trust or left?
Is it too early to use the words ”a tool of deflection for a mauling pastor” ?
Many were hoping that Peacemakers would come in and DO something. However, Peacemakers was called in to MEDIATE. If you aren’t familiar with mediation, which is a legal term, there are several good definitions available within a few computer clicks. A mediator comes to a situation and remains neutral about who shot John, but tries to help two parties come to an agreement on what needs to be done now that John has been shot. Such agreement usually involves compromise from one, if not both parties — so mediation is not always successful. The mediator in this case made it clear in his sermon that he came out of this situation hopeful — but clearly stated that the process is not finished, and more work is to be done among the 8 men involved.
If an organization were called in to ARBITRATE, they would listen to all sides of the situation and decide who shot John. It’s my understanding that Peacemakers is in the business of mediation, not arbitration.
What most of us seem to desire is some kind of official judgment from person of authority who says “YOU DID WRONG IN THIS SITUATION. MAKE RESTITUTION. APOLOGIZE. STEP ASIDE. GO AND SIN NO MORE.”
No such authority figure has shown up. So, many of the congregants (can’t call ‘em members) have had to make their own judgment of the situation by putting on their running shoes.
I don’t know much about Peacemakers — good, bad, or indifferent. But it doesn’t seem right to blame them for not arbitrating when they were called in to mediate. Perhaps an arbitrator is the next step — perhaps necessary even if mediation is successful in helping those 8 men come to an agreement. Arbitration would probably be helpful to the congregation, because they are not comfortable with the idea that the pastor seems to have arbitrated his own case.
Square peg, thank you for an extremely helpful explanation/clarification.
Square Peg,
Thankyou for your clear explanations.
As you stated, the PeaceMakers ministry are — mediators.
5yearsinPDI,
SGM corporation assuredly knows the process of mediation PeaceMakers engages in.
They know, as Square Peg stated that they are NOT called in to arbitrate. The original charges of the sr pastor lying and maligning against a fellow church member/pastor becomes secondary under the focus of mediations for reconciliation. Therefore, as we see, GE continues preaching/teaching (although sooooo many have left), a church plant prepares to head out……….And the congregation, as SquarePeg noted, have had NO person in authority keep the main thing the main thing, which is: “You did wrong in this situation. Make restitution. Apologize. Step aside. Go and sin no more.”
Mr Cornwall (the PeaceMakers mediator) told the congregants the mediations between the 8 men would continue into January.
That PeaceMakers agreed, in the first place, to “mediate” in the midst of this KingsWay church upheaval, is in my perception, either a lack of discernment, or a decision to “help” an SGM pastor be in a position to ‘arbitrate’ his own case.
I wonder,– if these charges of lying and maligning had been brought by another pastor or SGM leader— would PeaceMakers be called in or would GE simply have been “degifted”/nebulously removed? —
Because the charges and scriptural confrontations were brought by Congregants, SGM would naturally resist these Godly men. This is one of the main tools of authoritarian control we are witnessing within the SGM polity structure– —the great chasm between “leadership” and congregants.
SGM leadership seeks to stand firm in wielding control over the members of their “Family of churches”. They are very adept at projecting the illusion of humility — and sadly, they have come to believe in, and dwell in, their own self-made illusion (CJ’s ‘Happiest Place on Earth’).
I continue to pray, that in each church upheaval, those who “see” will recognize the door of deliverance the Lord has brought them to…Flee SGM…and become healed, restored, and renewed in the abundant, joyous, LIFE of Jesus the Christ.
Thanks Waters!!
If the Reformed Big Dogs don’t get it with this one, I am not sure they ever will……
Waters, I just love when you post such thoughtful, clear and heartfelt words!
5years – unfortunately I think the RBD, if they really are big dogs, are running, screaming with their hands over their ears…”lalalala…I can’t hear you!”
My mother used to say, ‘There are none so blind as those who will NOT see!’
Saints,
What we are witnessing: God brings to Light hidden and destructive sins, just as He says He will. He sovereignly decides the when and how. Nothing can be hidden from Him, and apparently He chooses to reveal sins which result in wounding and destruction to His people. Oppressors of truth seek to keep their actions hidden. Oppressors of truth seek to close the mouths of those who would be instruments of speaking forth truth which allow Light to expose deceptions and manipulations. Oppressors of truth forget that God IS God and He will do what He says He will do. Daniel 2:22
His Light shatters darkness and murkiness of shadows/deceptions/twistings/deflections.
Again and again and again and again and again, SGM ( and any affiliated with them who are very well aware of the reports of abuse of Gods people by SGM polity/leadership),
CHOOSE to operate in shifting shadows and murkiness of manipulations. They have not repented of building a polity which holds man as the cornerstone in place of Jesus the Christ. They CHOOSE to wield control of their congregants, and when the destructive sins of their polity come to light—they deflect all responsibility.
The great mercy of God has sought to bring opportunity to SGM to be struck with the reality of their man-made destructive polity. SGM Polity is at the core of equipping leadership to filter: man-control, twistings of truth, and the illusion of “The Happiest Place on Earth” (CJ’s term of endearment for the dysfunctional family of SGM churches).
Many fact-proven stories of abuse and the cover-ups of abuse have not moved SGM leadership. Their eye is focused on maintaining the idol of SGM and SGM polity–
at all cost. Even the proven destructions and cover-ups of Gods’ precious blood-bought
people havenot effected them. Instead, they spin,deflect, and accuse the very Brethren they have wounded.
Because of their lack of repentance at all levels, I believe they place themselves in a sad and dangerous place. God has given opportunity for them to repent within the community of Christians/the church/the heirs of Jesus the Christ. They remain hardened.
Micah 6:8
“He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you
But to do JUSTICE, to love KINDNESS,
And to walk humbly with your God.”
…….And so, I wonder…are they nearing the place of being exposed before the ‘world
of unbelievers’? Will our Brethren grievously need to stand before an incredulous
media world that would expose the obvious deceptions,woundings, and cover-ups
perpetrated by SGM leadership and SGM polity?
Gods mercy and heart would be for their owning of responsibility and repentance:
“Tell it not in Gath, Weep not at all.” — Micah 1:10
SGM— will you bring your Family of churches into the light of ‘Gath’?
You stand on a ledge. And God will not be mocked.
I think we are all suffering under the deulsion that the reformed big dogs are involved in each others’ churches.
Do you think that CJ spends alot of time worrying about Piper’s church or Dever’s church…what kind of polity they employ, what is going on…nah. He just wants to be accepted by them.
Remember back to the guy on the playground who wanted to be accepted by the other dudes. They wouldn’t have paid him too much attention.
Just thinking is all. No one else is coming in to take him to task. They won’t do it. This is a job for his elders.
Whoops. Therein lies the problem.
Each of them are just pastors who are dealing with their own flock.
Haven’t spent alot of time on this lately, but I have the impression that CJM is not doing a ton of conferences lately. Could be wrong.
One may wonder how neutral PM can be, given that Dave Harvey was a keynoter for them in 2009 and Josh Harris was the same in 2010. Also, at one time there were a dozen or so mp3s on the KW website of PM seminars held there. Mediation or arbitration, recusal may have been the ethical choice.
At one time I wondered, now I wander,
Former SG Pastor
http://www.peacemaker.net/site.....iation.htm
F. The Christian conciliator shall disclose all conflicts of interest, including any interest or relationship that is likely to affect impartiality or that might create an appearance of partiality or bias.
G. The Christian conciliator shall be impartial, that is, free from favoritism or bias either by word or by action, and shall be committed to serving all parties rather than a single party.
So they call their Christian conciliators to a standard that perhaps the parent ministry does not seem to subscribe to, that’s familiar.
Unassimilated……….
As I remember, the inclusion of “a survey by an outside organization not materially affiliated with SGM” was one of the points in a get well plan offered to the SGM leadership some time back………….
For those that care to revisit it, here is a link
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/2.....nd-connie/
N.S.L.B.
Waters asked:
“And so, I wonder…are they nearing the place of being exposed before the ‘world of unbelievers’? Will our Brethren grievously need to stand before an incredulous media world that would expose the obvious deceptions, woundings, and cover-ups perpetrated by SGM leadership and SGM polity?”
This was discussed some time back, here or on SGMS. The Lord has been amazingly merciful thus far to these men who are simply, as scripture puts it, stiff-necked and dull of hearing.
I predict that if business-as-usual persists within SGM, someone *will* take their case of abuse to the secular news media — perhaps 20/20 or 60 Minutes, which can be counted on to have no patience for the hair-splitting defenses of SGM. Just imagine the interview snippets contrasting an abused congregant’s story with the unbelievable, lame comebacks that Mahaney, et al, would attempt.
If that media outlet were to get additional information on SGM practices — like their habit of doing “missions” in upper-middle-class US neighborhoods, the curious financial reports, “de-gifting” of pastors, the rampant nepotism, the 9-month pastors’ school that places 23-year-old, no-college men in charge of huge congregations, and kicking people out for simply asking questions — it might quickly be all over for SGM, at least on the income side. Remember how quickly the funding dried up for other ministries, once their issues were exposed on nationwide secular news?
Oh I forgot: what would the secular world think of video clips showing Mahaney’s bizarre speaking style, replacing the audio with voice-overs of ex-members who’d been abused and kicked out, just for asking questions? Non-Christians already think preachers are crazy — give ‘em some Mahaney arm-waving, chopping and weeping, and the jig will be up.
Remember, too, that in the court of 24-hour, cable-news public opinion, there don’t need to be any laws broken — just the appearance of wrongdoing or ridiculous stupidity. (And to anyone but SGM survivors or those still trapped on SGM Island, the antics of SGM’s leadership must sound *at least* ridiculously stupid.)
I’m not suggesting anyone go to the media, but I repeat that the Lord has been very merciful to SGM thus far, and ask SGM to consider what must certainly lie ahead if they don’t repent and come clean to fellow saints.
Compared to a secular-media treatment, these blogs have been polite, limp-wristed pantywaists. I think the day is coming when SGM will regret not engaging the issues through these blogs, rather than run the ruthless gantlet of media whipping.
Think it over, Mr. Mahaney — “It is hard for you to kick against the goads!” (Acts 26:14)
New Here. Have no idea where to post.
I have recently left my SGC of 12 years. I cannot even begin to tell you the pain I am in. It is making me literally ill. I am waiting on my phone NOT to ring. Sure hope I am ready for this. God is with me. God is with me. God is with me. This I know. This is my only hope. Please tell me there is life after SGM. I am not convinced yet. I don’t know that this pain will ever leave, but if not, I pray I will learn to live with it. I have no other choice!~
Quizzler,
Thanks for the link.
keepinstep,
The “In the Begining” part of this article would be a good start to any story.
http://www.washingtontimes.com.....57r/print/
No Longer Deceived: Welcome. There are many here who’ve been where you are. Take heart! Take time. Rest. Receive grace & mercy. Joy to the World — the Lord is come!
No longer deceived, it will get better. Allow yourself the time and space and permission to grieve.
No Longer Deceived,
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}
I know how you’re feeling, it’s a horrible feeling. All I can say is that it WILL get better. Draw close to Jesus, He is REAL, He LOVES you, He will never leave or forsake you.
Ellie
No Longer Deceived,
Where to begin? I have been around this site since its inception. Yet, never can I remember hearing such words of pain that so related to my own pain after leaving PDI/SGM. Remembering the devistation my world was in in 1997 when we left PDI…well, your words make it seem like yesterday.
I can stand with others in saying that there IS life after SGM. There is a life of grace, joy, and rest in Jesus that you might never have had in that organization. The Lord has not left you. He has been merciful to get you out of a bad place. As more and more of the SGM story unfolds, the more I am convinced that it has become a cult. God has set you free from this group. Though it hurts, it is also a time to rejoice because you are beginning an incredible journey on the road to your freedom in Christ Jesus.
New journies are a bit scary. They are unpredictable. SGM felt safe. The truth is, it is not a safe place. You probably feel vulnerable, like the world is a huge ”unknown” and where do you go from here? We who have been through this understand. We are here to support you. Ask questions. Share your thoughts. Let us walk through this with you. You are not alone. If you really listen, you can hear the Lord’s steady voice saying, “Come, follow Me.” He will not desert you. He has good plans for your life because He is GOOD.
You will get past the pain, the sense of betrayal, the heartache of loosing friends by leaving SGM. Many of us here can testify to having richer, fuller faith in Jesus Christ than we ever did in SGM. No longer does a pastor need to stand “in the stead of God” for us. We have a direct line to the Father through Jesus! We have freedom to walk by faith, in grace that we never knew before! That is waiting for you, too. Just listen to the Lord as He calls you – “Come. Follow Me.” He will not disappoint you. Very sincerely, Canary
No longer deceived -
There is life after SGM. I know it’s hard,but you will be okay. We know what you’re feeling!
Welcome and God bless!
No longer Decieved
The pain leaves, God is with you, there is a whole Kingdom of fellow believers outside the wall of SGM.
No Longer Deceived -
Your distress is palpable. But, there is life after SG. Things do get better, over time.
My wife and I recently had this discussion: would we rather still be in SG and deceived and experiencing pseudo-happiness and pseudo-friendships or out of SG, though the way has been rough? She said with no hesitation “out”. I agreed.
My only regret … I didn’t leave sooner.
Praying for you,
Former SG Pastor
No Longer Decieved
Ezekiel 34
The LORD Will Be Your Shepherd
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to you shepherds of Israel who only take care of yourselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.
11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
17 “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.
25 “‘I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of savage beasts so that they may live in the wilderness and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will make them and the places surrounding my hill a blessing.[a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. 30 Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the Israelites, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
No Longer Deceived,
You are already declaring truth with your chosen posting name-
You are NO LONGER DECEIVED!! Praise Almighty God! He has opened the door
to deliver you–
I hear the astonishment in your ‘voice’ and, as others have stated, do surely understand that deer-in-the-headlights shock of what you have experienced—and what you now SEE.
The pain is very real–as Acme stated, you will enter into a grieving process. Thats ok.
God even graced us with the capacity to grieve so that we may process our deep cries of anguish and hurt.
I believe when we are wounded by fellow Christians, the wound is so acutely felt– for they have also wounded “Christ in us” (as in when our risen Savior, Jesus the Christ, appeared to Saul of Tarsus, asking “Saul,Saul why do you persecute Me?”)
As others here have encouraged….take a big breath…lots of them. Breathe in the truth of Gods love and care. He is your Shepherd, the GOOD Shepherd. Allow yourself to rest in Him.
Our poster, Canary, is annointed to minister to the wounds of the Brethren—she has a special care for Gods wounded ones— her words of encouragement to you are truth.
Please know you are loved……………and being prayed for by many on the Refuge.
You are NOT alone.
Shepherding Survivor— Thankyou for posting these passages in Ezekiel — Saints, this
is very sobering as we read these passages and clearly see the evidences and parallels
in the SGM leadership.—-once again……..
***********JESUS IS OUR REDEEMER **************
Unassimilated, thanks for that link to the Washington Times story. I added the first comment there, after creating a login. Maybe others can do the same.
http://www.washingtontimes.com.....57r/print/
FYI
The new Sovereign Grace Ministries church plant in Charlottesville, VA led By Keith B. will be called Redeemer Church of Charlottesville.
No longer deceived,
You are on the road to recovery. God is with you. It is so hard, but you will experience the freedom and peace that life in Christ has to offer. I agree with FSGP: “My only regret … I didn’t leave sooner.”
Praying for you.
ww
Me thinketh that there is a troll in these here parts!
Trolls………..
Time for a pop-quiz
Trolls often show up
A) When the discussion is getting “too close to home”
B) To distract
C) To manipulate and hijack the discussion
D) To sow the seeds of confusion and redirection
E) All of the above
Maybe the discussion above (comment 33.) was getting a little too uncomfortable for someone so they felt the need to deflect it.
Matt 10:16
N.S.L.B
Fred,
I don’t think so. The conversation hasn’t exactly been “hopping” lately. We’ve always ministered to those who are coming out of SGM, hurting, along with confronting SGM. These posts have always intermingled. Anyone is free to continue the discussion.
Ellie
Ellie, you have a sweet heart. We cannot help but respond to someone who seems to be hurting because we have love in our hearts. If someone is pretending to be wounded to play around with us, that person is a deceiver. We all know that liars will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. He/she is much to be pitied. Until that sort of thing is proven, we must continue to be guided by love and respond graciously. Thanks for your post, Ellie. Merry Christmas!
Fred and Quizzler,
Listening to your instincts……..
If “No Longer Deceived” IS a troll, well, the hearts of Refuge posters has been very apparent.– Ready to come alongside a (Possible) wounded Brethren with love and prayer.
And……..we can still remain on topic……….
Remember, Saints,— SGM enterprises THRIVES on deflections.
In regards to KingsWay, Looking Elsewhere posted the name of the new church plant out of KingsWay,”Redeemer Church of Charlottesville.” Headed up by KB and on the way to Charlottesville VA, home of the University of Virginia. KB has been mentored and “cared for” by GE these past 2 years. Frankly, this presently makes me too disgusted to comment. …….
Canary and Ellie, I agree with both of you and hope that you are right. My heart always goes out to those who are hurting no matter what the cause. I stand by my previous post but hope that I am wrong and would be the first to apologize if that is the case.
I hope you are wrong, too, Fred, if only for that person’s sake. It is very dreadful to lie to God or His people. However, your heart has always been gentle towards those hurting. I’ve seen it so often – I would never question that! Your instincts might be correct about the troll thing. Our responding in love should make any troll feel ashamed for his/her deceit. Interesting that No Longer Deceived has not responded to all the posts meant to comfort him/her.
Yet, the love shown this person only confirms why we are here – to help the wounded and seek reform within SGM. I know that you, Fred, have helped so much to encourage the saints, here. And if you are right about the “troll”, then we obeyed scripture by loving on our enemy. It’s a win-win! Big tweety hugs to you!
Back on subject: I was thinking about the comments involving the media getting involved. That is something most of us would not wish to see happen! Yet, how often will God use His people to “judge” the actions of His church when it is misbehaving! When those attempts fail, He will use the world to judge the church. Many of us have brought warning after warning after warning to SGM leadership during the past 20 years or so. The whole reason Jim and Carole began the Refuge was to bring warning to leaders who would not repent of their wrong-doing.
If ANY church which uses authoritarian abuse to control the flock does not listen to the pleas of its own people to change, then God, in His mercy, will bring the world in to reveal and judge sin. Look at Isarael. Jerimiah warned of inpending doom if the people did not repent before God. He was ignored. Israel was overcome and taken into slavery. Israel rejected Christ and was ravaged in 70 AD, destined to roam the world with no country of its own until 1948. The Lord used His own enemies to judge the actions of His people. In the end, this is merciful because discipline is done out of God’s love for His own.
So, may the world not have to get involved to straighten out the sins of SGM. Let us pray fervently that leadership has their eyes opened by the Holy Spirit, not “60 Minutes”. We love our bretheren and would never wish to see them turned over to the enemy of God’s people. May that never happen!
Let them see, Lord. Let them heed the warnings of those within the church and those of us who have experienced the abuse of the leaven of the Pharisees. We were once a part of the system, our eyes blinded as well by our own sin of “desiring a king”. You were merciful to show us our failings, to set us free. You were gentle with those of us who trusted leaders only to be lied to or betrayed by a false love. Please be merciful to the SGM leaders who are still perpetuating this kind of sin. Lead the wounded to Jesus, please! Let them be healed by your balm. Let forgiveness flow towards those who harmed them. And in everything, let your love be our guide!
I need to rephrase something I stated earlier. I said that SGM is a cult. I spoke out of emotion. I am truly sorry. I had just found out something about their doings that shocked me more than I’ve have been shocked in a long time.
What I believe is that SGM (or any other authoritarian church) is cult-like in some of its practices. I believe that, if they do not heed the Holy Spirit, they will possibly become a cult in the future.
Having been away from this site for a while has helped me gain some new perspective. It is God’s people we are fighting for. Ultimately, we are also fighting for the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. SGM has so much leaven in the “SGM gospel” that it is dangerous. There are believers in that organization who think they are safe when they are not. How awful for their souls! How dreadful to die and find you only had ‘religion” and not Jesus. The goats are sent away. We must fight to keep the Gospel of Jesus Christ pure and true! Souls are at stake!
Fred, if post 33 on page 4 was posted at December 16, 2010 at 12:07 pm and post 34 at December 16, 2010 at 11:03 pm how could it be a troll to divert us from 33? Unless I just don’t understand the mechanics of the posting system. . .
To all of you who have offered comfort and encouragement to “No longer Decieved” (that’s how they spelled it) give yourself an A and move to the head of the class.
Quizzler would have given you an A+ but not wanting to encourage PRIDE, and A is the best you can receive!
N.S.L.B.
Canary,
Thank you for your sensitive words and heart to encourage whosoever may be in need. It’s a good reminder that this site is a refuge — some may attempt to malign or mock our posters, nevertheless, God SEES…..there is comfort in that.
‘Stunned’ recently posted on Survivors, her sensing that we are in a wave of spiritual warfare. (not an exact quote but that’s the gist). I agree — there are extra arrows for whatever reason. In warfare, we stay focused…and lean in ever closer to hear the Lord’s leading and the needed discernment.
When Light/Truth clashes with darkness, how can it not be felt.
We continue to watch SGM Enterprises continue in their illusion of their “Happiest Place on Earth.” It is alarming, that as they remain in and defend their illusion—they go forth and PROJECT their illusion on an unknowing community (like Charlottesville Va).
No wonder there is such conflict — the stronghold of SGM illusion is being chipped away at by Truth and Light — Jesus the Christ—Who called Himself “The way, the Truth, and the Life.” (John 14:6)
No longer Decieved says:
December 16, 2010 at 11:03 pm
I have recently left my SGC of 12 years. I cannot even begin to tell you the pain I am in. It is making me literally ill. I am waiting on my phone NOT to ring. Sure hope I am ready for this. God is with me. God is with me. God is with me.
No Longer Deceived. You will go through the 5 stages of death and dying, and flip back and forth between, anger, bargaining, depression, denial, and acceptance. Keep on looking back at what you wrote “God is with me, God is with me, God is with me”. Those words are so true, and will remind you that no matter how often people disappoint you, “God is with me.” We were a part of our SGM for over 20 years and I had heard from friends that had left that the “phone never rang”. I told them to call instead of waiting for the call from old friends, and thought he might be exaggerating. WELL, a year has passed, for us, and he was right. I am not going to say it doesn’t hurt, because when I think of how close we were with so many, it is wrong. It is something that cults do to ex-members. (Now there is a scary concept, SGM has cult like tendencies.)
We are getting involved in another fellowship, and in our search on the internet, along with solid doctrine, we looked for elders and boy is it a relief to go to our new church’s website and see gray haired men that have been in ministry (missions, counseling, pastors etc) for 20-40 years. Will they blow it? Yeah. Is it perfect? No, but we know that none of them are paid and every few years a new elder’s board is elected, by the church, using the Bible as the standard (“husband of one wife” etc etc etc)
In our situation, there were so many from Metro life that have left that we stay in touch with others that are out hunting for new homes. We pray for each other and occasionally “weep with them that weep, and rejoice with them that rejoice.”It is going to take time – no one can put a quantitative number on the days, weeks ,months or years, but keep your focus on God, anything else is Idolatry, because only God will always be by your side. For you it was 12 years, us 20+, so there was a lot of time invested and the process of starting over. It isn’t comfortable, but show me where God promises that it is going to “be comfortable.” He offers “the peace that passes all understanding”, so when I am not understanding why friends of 20 years don’t call and ask how we’re doing, I stand on MY ROCK, MY DELIVERER, and know that HE calls, His Spirit speaks life to me.
We will grow where He plants us. We believe that God is allowing this shake up to remove many of us from our comfortable, complacent existences to spread us out across our city, to become a part of something new. We see the problems of the polity with SGM, and yet we refuse to believe that 20+ years was a waste. We were taught well, and we grew in our worship and walk with God as well as our marriage being restored. I refuse to give the enemy of my soul any joy in statements like “We wasted 20 years.” Like my wife always says-”chew the meat and spit out the bones.”
So, No Longer Deceived – start chewing and remember Psalm 91:15 “He will call upon Me, and I will answer him. I will be with him in distress.”
And Isaiah 41:10 Fear you not; for I am with you: be not dismayed; for I am your God: I will strengthen you; yes, I will help you; yes, I will uphold you with the right hand of my righteousness.
NO Longer Deceived -Do not allow bitterness to rob you of the joy that awaits on those that wait on God. We’ve all been there, some longer than others, and like you’ve seen over and over – there IS life after SGM.
Dear No Longer Deceived,
Jesus loves you. He has a wonderful plan for you. You are not in sin for leaving your SGM church.
I, too, was heartbroken when I left my SGM church. And terrified. I wasn’t under their “covering” anymore. What might happen to me? What might happen to my family? The glorious thing was, I discovered that Jesus was sufficient to cover me.
It is His blood that covers my sins and washed them away and makes them white as snow. And the power and grace that raised Him from the dead, is the same power and strength that was strong enough and big enough and loving enough to keep me when and where He wanted me.
Dear No Longer Deceived, He wants you free. And He probably wants you for Himself. He is a jealous God. He will have no other Gods before Him. (I’m guessing He ain’t so hot on having any other Gods after Him, too.) If He has called you out, He has done so for a very wonderful purpose. He ministered to me, that He wanted me all to Himself, where my eyes were on Him alone. This period lasted for quite a few years. Then one day (standing in the middle of a CVS of all places), I felt Him say that now it was time to start being a part of a church again.
It wasn’t easy all the time, but honestly, almost all of the “hard” stuff, was merely the fear and the healing.
If I could echo what many of my brothers and sisters said above, go gently on yourself. Heal. Rest. Grieve. Find joy in small and large things, every day if you can.
Jesus loves you so much.
Stunned
thank you all so so much for these kind and welcoming words. I have been really sick with the flu for the past 2 weeks, so I have not read anything on this website recently. It comforts me to know that God has been Faithful to those of you who have/are going through what I am going through now, and that it is that same God that is showing Himself Faithful to me. I haven’t read all the post’s yet but wanted to stop and say thank you. Bless you all!
a troll? really? I had to look that one up on Goggle. I was very honest in my first post here. Although I felt that I had to be extremely careful to not give too much info. I am sure I am being paranoid at this point, but I didn’t even want to give the exact years that I have been at the SGM Church I just left, so that no one could “figure out” who I really am. ha. what kind of pride is that? I must think I am really important huh? There are also a few of you that I know from my former SGM Church. Another reason I don’t want to give too much “correct” info. If I do somehow have to “prove” my identity, then I could do it with those of you who have left Metro Life Church in Orlando. You will know who I am. I have visited 2 other Church’s, both of which I liked very much. I was thrilled to be so warmly greeted by both. How much those warm embraces mean at a time like this. And by the way, I created this e-mail address to use for this site only. Yes the paranoia thing again. So if you have sent me any e-mails to this e-mail address I am using here, I have not gotten it yet. I can’t even remember what password I used to start this e-mail account. I wrote it down somewhere and will keep looking. So no, I am not a troll. I do not sit in my underwear in my Mothers Basement and pop my teenage zits, trying to bring down the “kingdom” that is CJM. I am not trying to get any new info. on anyone. Believe me, my own personal info., is making me ill enough. Not sure how often I will be on this website, but I assure you that I have indeed left my SGM Church, and am scared to death of what my future holds. That in itself should have clued me in years ago….that I was more afraid to be left by my SGM Church, then I was by God Himself. What a sinful and sickening shame that is. Yes I am in the fire now. But I am in there with God. And that is where my Comfort comes from. (These day’s anyway’s. It used to came from good Teachings.) How sad is that! Sorry if I made anyone nervous about my “troll-less” identity, but the words of heart felt encouragement were very meaningful to me. The rest of you can kiss my a**. Oops. Did I say that out loud? Now my Best Friend will call my care Group Leader and report my language (in the form of a prayer request) so that I can be adequately “cared for”, and held accountable for, as they are the one’s who must give an account for the care of my soul, or some other warped interpretation of Heb. 13:17. Then my sinful language will get turned in to my Pastor on my C. G. Leaders monthly report, so that “they can serve me the very best they know how to”. I will then be called into a Pastoral Mtg. to discuss this hideous sin. Upon my arrival, I will see that not only is my Senior Pastor sitting in front of me, but there are also 3 of my Dear Friends, (all of whom forgot to tell me they would be attending this meeting), and they will in unity call for my repentance before they are forced to go the next step of Matt. 18. There. Does that prove to you skeptics that I am not a troll? I am a deeply wounded and severely bleeding sheep who has let bitterness into my heart, but who is determined that it will not separate me from God. Or at least not for long! I will keep praying for all of us everyday. God always gets His way. His ways are always the best. We are merely called to be Faithful. Bless you all!
and how do I figure out where quote #33 on page #4 is anyway?
No Longer Deceived,
Forgive us for jumping to conclusions. We have had deceivers post before in attempts to distract and mock us. Your absence after your first post made us speculate wrongly. You sound like you’ve suffered greatly. Forgive us for making things worse.
If there is anything we can help you with, please ask. Our words of encouragement were sincere. I can assure you that the Lord will keep you in his Great Hand as you walk through this difficult time. There is a wonderful freedom in Christ for you to find outside of the controlling church. Walking by faith instead of by a pastor’s constant oversight requires courage and seeking of the Holy Spirit, our Great Comforter. Rest in Him. He will guide you through.
I knew you weren’t a troll. Trolls try to distract and sidetrack and would’ve posted more than once. Like Canary said, if there is anything we can help you with, please ask!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}
Dear Friend,
We all remember the fear, the bleeding, the fear, and the fear. Who is scared of leaving their church?! Can someone say cultish tendencies?
Stunned
who clearly still won’t use her real name
Go to the top of this page to where it says:
215 Comments on The KingsWay Way 2
« Previous
1
…
3
4
5
Click on the number 4 (for the page). Then look for (easier to use “Find”- push the ctrl key while you push the “f” key) number 33. It is very hard to see, but if you look closely enough, you can see the numbers beside everyone’s “name” and printed over the little squares beside the names.
PS. GREAT description of “correction”.
And hear what Canary is saying. You wouldn’t believe the doozies that have come here claiming all sorts of false things. (One guy or group of guys- Kris, what was it?- of SGM men- can you believe they were grown men lying- who made up a story of being victimized by their church. Spent weeks pouring out their story and we all spent weeks crying and praying for “him” and pouring out love for him. They actually had plans to have some big “reveal” to prove that we were a bunch of patsies. Kris- do I have the story right? Anyway Kris somehow found out what they were up to. I think it only proved that some SGM supporters will go to any unethical length to make their SGM look good, even while they are making their savior look bad and grieve Him due to their sin.)
Heck, No Longer Deceived, I just went and found page four, post 33 for ya. Here it is below in its entirety.
keepinstep says:
December 16, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Waters asked:
“And so, I wonder…are they nearing the place of being exposed before the ‘world of unbelievers’? Will our Brethren grievously need to stand before an incredulous media world that would expose the obvious deceptions, woundings, and cover-ups perpetrated by SGM leadership and SGM polity?”
This was discussed some time back, here or on SGMS. The Lord has been amazingly merciful thus far to these men who are simply, as scripture puts it, stiff-necked and dull of hearing.
I predict that if business-as-usual persists within SGM, someone *will* take their case of abuse to the secular news media — perhaps 20/20 or 60 Minutes, which can be counted on to have no patience for the hair-splitting defenses of SGM. Just imagine the interview snippets contrasting an abused congregant’s story with the unbelievable, lame comebacks that Mahaney, et al, would attempt.
If that media outlet were to get additional information on SGM practices — like their habit of doing “missions” in upper-middle-class US neighborhoods, the curious financial reports, “de-gifting” of pastors, the rampant nepotism, the 9-month pastors’ school that places 23-year-old, no-college men in charge of huge congregations, and kicking people out for simply asking questions — it might quickly be all over for SGM, at least on the income side. Remember how quickly the funding dried up for other ministries, once their issues were exposed on nationwide secular news?
Oh I forgot: what would the secular world think of video clips showing Mahaney’s bizarre speaking style, replacing the audio with voice-overs of ex-members who’d been abused and kicked out, just for asking questions? Non-Christians already think preachers are crazy — give ‘em some Mahaney arm-waving, chopping and weeping, and the jig will be up.
Remember, too, that in the court of 24-hour, cable-news public opinion, there don’t need to be any laws broken — just the appearance of wrongdoing or ridiculous stupidity. (And to anyone but SGM survivors or those still trapped on SGM Island, the antics of SGM’s leadership must sound *at least* ridiculously stupid.)
I’m not suggesting anyone go to the media, but I repeat that the Lord has been very merciful to SGM thus far, and ask SGM to consider what must certainly lie ahead if they don’t repent and come clean to fellow saints.
Compared to a secular-media treatment, these blogs have been polite, limp-wristed pantywaists. I think the day is coming when SGM will regret not engaging the issues through these blogs, rather than run the ruthless gantlet of media whipping.
Think it over, Mr. Mahaney — “It is hard for you to kick against the goads!” (Acts 26:14)
No longer…
we’ve been out a long time, left nicely and disappeared from the radar, and are very happy now in a good church with warm rich fellowship, and a pastor who has had enough revolting interactions with the closest SGM that we all see eye to eye on the subject.
And even so, I get brief panicky moments of “them” figuring out who I am and calling me up and going after me in some way. Illogical, but I suppose a form of post traumatic stress syndrome. Or to be biblical instead of psychobabble, it is fear of man. Yes, tragic, but I just want you to know others struggle also with the paranoia, even after many years have gone by. It is more fleeting now for me, and only happens occasionally after I post online.
May God deliver you from bitterness and help you to fully forgive. There IS hope and joy and life ahead. Even SGM will work for your greatest good.
Forgive me, but I really want to re-post that final paragraph of comment #33, as my 2011 tough-love gift to SGM leaders:
The Lord has been VERY MERCIFUL to SGM thus far ["why? why?" as Mr. Mahaney might ask, given your self-proclaimed status as "the greatest sinner I know"], and I ask SGM leaders to consider what must certainly lie ahead if you don’t repent and come clean to fellow saints. [Bakker, Swaggart, Lea, Tilton....]
Compared to a secular-media treatment, these blogs have been polite, limp-wristed pantywaists. I think the day is coming when you SGM leaders will regret not engaging the issues through these blogs, rather than run the ruthless gantlet of media whipping.
Think it over, Mr. Mahaney — “It is hard for you to kick against the goads!” (Acts 26:14)
Since “re-posting” seems to be the order of the day, I’m re-posting the get-well plan of two years ago from the folks down in Chesapeak. Enjoy…………..
January 13, 2009
A “get well” plan for our church, SGC
• Come to Chesapeake and interview the many victims including the three couples who came to the pastors.
• Interview and evaluate the pastors as well as Gene Emerson (for his lack of oversight and his involvement in the Dec. 20th meeting).
• Present to the entire membership the events of the last few months including the events that led up to the Dec. 20th meeting, allowing the three couples to read their letter summarizing the events from their perspective.
• Present the list of concerns that the three couples brought forward on Nov. 9th and Dec. 16th and discuss these with the membership.
• Repentance to and restoration of the names and character of the three couples by Gene Emerson and the pastors.
• Remove the three pastors who have brought reproach; based on the most recent Foundations Manual from SGC, pages 73-78, these pastors have failed in every area listed:
The definition of overseer/bishop, pastor, and elder (Page 73)
Characteristics of a pastor/elder (page 74)
A model for the church (page 74)
A blessing to the church (page 74)
Recognized by the church (Page 75)
The role of a pastor/elder (page 75)
Nourish the church (page 76)
Equip the church (page 76)
Protect the church (page 76)
Shepherd the church (page 77)
Serve the church (page 78)
• Move Beyond the Cross in the teaching in our church. A renewed focus on the resurrection of Jesus Christ is greatly needed to bring forth redemption, hope and victory over sin.
• Also, a renewed focus on the ministry of the Holy Spirit would enable people to walk forth in the fullness of the Gospel, empowering them to put sin to death and to walk in victory.
• Begin teaching the entire Bible. We do have an enemy of God, Satan, who is trying to destroy the Church. By teaching the people that sin is our only enemy, you have left them vulnerable at best.
• Announce publically when changes in doctrine have been and are being made.
• Establish relationships with other churches and Christ-centered organizations within the local community.
• Involve members in more ministry and leadership opportunities.
• Treat women as true sisters in Christ identifying and acknowledging their giftings to be used within the body.
• Establish elected elders to operate within an accountability system for the pastors.
• Set up an internal grievance authority (internal affairs) within SGM that has direct access to CJ and the Apostolic Team.
• Establish a “member concerns” hotline (ethics hotline).
• Conduct an outside audit of doctrine and practices within the church and SGM by an organization that is not materially affiliated with SGM.
• Place professional counselors on church staffs (salaries paid by SGM not the local church); a definite problem has been identified in SGC Chesapeake in the area of counseling. These pastors have proven that they are not equipped to counsel and handle serious issues involving people’s lives. Sins of a sexual nature in which there has been a criminal act MUST be reported to civil authorities and handled by professionals outside the church.
• Conduct open microphone Q&A sessions at the end of all family meetings.
• Establish a fixed percentage of tithe that would go to benevolence in the annual budget.
• Lengthen the term of the Pastor’s College.
• Conduct a baseline survey of the entire SGC membership concerning the health of SGC.
N.S.L.B.
Wow Q, that was superb. ( Can we say superb? Is that too close to “awesome”?)
I think I’d eliminate a longer PC though. Best to scrap it entirely and insist pastors go to recognized good seminaries out there, not the insulated brainwashing thing that the PC was.
I also think there is no getting well until CJM is removed. The source of so much wrong started with, and has been supported by, CJ.
Hi all and a Happy New Year.
It’s been awhile since I posted. Just to refresh your memories, I am the one that accused y’all of gossip and slander awhile back. My accusations were met by denial, counterattack and mostly vitriol from the readers here. I think, in my delusions of grandeur, that the gossip and slander thread was launched because of me.
That said, I have had a change of heart on this subject. As I talked with my significant other this morning it became apparent that fear of gossip and slander has all but paralyzed my family and our relationships therein. What I will share next will undoubtedly expose my identity. Not that it matters so much, but I just don’t like being dismissed because of who people think that I am..or am not. Certain cirsumstances surrounding our 3 adopted children were shared with our church family in hopes of finding grace, understanding and encouragement. Instead we received repulsion.
We were more than a little surprised by this. That reaction made me erroneously believe that I was slandering my children. I wanted people to think the best of them so they would be accepted. We began to experience a distancing from the body of Christ at Kingsway. There were only a few dear sisters in Christ that loved us enough to support us the best they could. For that we give thanks to the Father, whom adopted us into HIS family.
Then to make matters worse, one or more of my natural children began to fall away from the church, the family and the faith. We felt that if we tried to gain counseling with others that this too would be slanderous.
Long story short, for over 2 years we have grown more and more distant from the family of God at Kingsway as well as God himself. I just took a brief moment to shed tears of grief for the whole thing.
My understanding of the teaching on gossip and slander has led my family down a dark path. But my eyes have been opened. I apologize to everyone here affected by my anger. I am planning a retreat in the near future to regain what has been lost. Although I cannot change people’s reactions to my family situation, I refuse to let it be a roadblock to honest, open sharing from this day forward. Pray that God places those in my path that are His conduits of grace for me and my family.
Bill Jones
You are a new creature in Christ…the old has passed away, the new has come, Bill. It is so good to hear from you again!
Blessings to your beloved family.
Dear Bill —
First, I’d like to congratulate you on the adoption of your children, and on a beautiful family. Thanks for being honest in sharing the difficulties you’ve encountered. I believe you came to KW about the time we left, and I had no idea your family had expanded. I’m so sorry to hear that your kids have not been welcomed with open arms.
Ohhh, we Christians have a terrible time accepting people who aren’t perfect. So sad that we essentially put a sign up over the church door that says, “Come in only if you’ve been sanctified”, yet what a motley crew we really are. Last week, I heard a preacher say, “So, you got problems with your kids? I’ve got kids, too — and went through plenty of problems ….and because of that, I know what you’re talking about when you ask for help and ask for prayer.” What a change from what we experienced in SGM, when preachers with problem kids were dismissed. The example presented by seemingly perfect preacher kids was really only an example to keep our mouths shut about kid problems. What we see in your case is a classic example of blaming the victims.
Regardless — though I haven’t seen you in quite a while, and you probably wouldn’t remember us, I’ll be praying for you and your family. May you and your kids be blessed beyond measure in this new year — and may the love that covers a multitude of sins work wonders in all our families.
Hi Bill,
We also adopted twice internationally. I struggled with the seemingly disinterest in our son when he was hospitalized too many times to count. When I taught art in the coop at our sgm church, I NEVER received one call when I had to quit teaching because my son was very ill and hospitalized. It was as if he didn’t exist. Both of our adopted children have suffered greatly from the experience and are not ready to trust a church again. It grieves me that it’s been 2 years and we are still too scarred to set foot in a church.
Hi, Bill. Welcome back–and I’m so sorry. You are not alone — I know so many people who have run into this. SGM shoots the wounded — anyone who doesn’t fit into the shiny happy people mold. They keep their kids away — for fear of contamination — even from longterm members, even from those who used to be in leadership, even from those once thought to be closer than family.
Dear Bill, God bless you!
Our longsuffering merciful God loves you and all your children. And we love you too.
What I want to say is helpful, I hope, as you reflect and pursue the TRUTH.
Words have meaning. Slander is a term of malicious intent and deception. Even Peacemaker’s book says that. It is always false. So discussing the sad or even tragic truth of your adopted children’s past life is not slander! You were never guilty of that and probably, in your heart breaking over their past you tried to be transparent and encourage compassion for what the Lord rescued your kids from! (I hope this makes sense) I mean, hallelujah! A life in Virginia, in middle class USA is FAR more safe and sane than what so many babies have endured in other places!
So please rest that you did not “slander” your children.
Now….here’s a word that does also have meaning: “dishonor” – there is a way to disclose something about someone that may bring honor, or may bring dishonor. I know I have been guilty of this with my husband and my kids, and I am thankful for the Lord’s forgiveness and instruction!
Honor is a term that has lost much meaning in our lives and culture but it is precious to the Lord. God invented honor! He loves it when it is properly placed! Honor is NOT what, in my experience, the leaders of sg churches care about – they want power more than honor. The fear of the Lord and honor are two concepts I haven’t observed in sg churches for years and years.
Sadly you thought your church congregation was was safe and you could be transparent. Probably, while your family fit the mold, it was, and you could! But when you adopted kids outside the safe box, you had no idea this might affect all of you. I’m so very very sorry. I saw this with other families who adopted kids, IF they didn’t have others they could safely fellowship with. PLUS the woeful messages that were given about what help they could get, and what help was somehow evil or ungodly to get for those precious kids. And oh, all the years that some kids went without help while the adopting parents looked for a theologically suitable counselor! God help them.
God help you, dear humble, transparent brother. He is near to the broken hearted, for sure.
Pam, please receive a big, soft, gentle tweety hug (((((((Pam)))))). I mourn with you over the church experiences you and your family had, but rejoice that you are outta’ there!
Dear Bill, Pam, and the many others who are walking wounded because of the treatment of their children in SGM churches -
First of all, to Bill – I am so very sorry that your younger children were not received well at KWCC. We didn’t realize that that was happening to you all. Also, we had no idea that it was YOU writing under the name you chose to use (GNHB)! My husband and I were trying to figure out who it could be and had no earthly idea it was you!
Our family was not a “good fit” at Kingsway (originally Southside) because we sent our kids to public school. When we moved to Midlothian over 11 years ago, my husband felt strongly that we should go to school with our neighbors and become part of our new community. This was after many years at a Christian school in the city where we had come from. There was only one other family at the church that was in public school at that time. We felt like such outcasts although a few people would actually thank us for bringing “diversity” to their church! (How outrageous that WE represented diversity!) We were actually told by a couple (who are still very much a part of KWCC) that they home schooled their children “because they were Christians.” I thought, “These people are even questioning our faith because we are sending our kids to public school!” But still we joined the church and tried FOR YEARS to “fit in.”
There are many people at the church now who have no idea that we have three children and who they are and what they do! This is because the kids (our boys especially) felt the hypocrisy and condemnation and asked to not be forced to attend when they were in high school and my husband (in wisdom) did not force them to attend. It makes me sad that such a big part of our lives (our talented, bright, and witty boys) were not and are not known by KWCC. Our daughter (the oldest) has been a part and WAS a member of the church, but she was under much scrutiny also and somehow she suffered through it but not without a few wounds of her own that she is walking with.
There were several times over the 11 years that I asked my husband if we could look for another church where we could fit in better. He felt like should stay. So we served and gave sacrificially and tried to be “a part.” There are some of you reading this and thinking, “The Wingos didn’t feel like they fit in?” I know that many will be surprised because you saw us doing many visible things in the church. But, I can’t tell you how free and relieved that I am to NOT be a member of KWCC now. To be away from the legalism and heavy-handedness; to be seeking God on our own for what HE has for us during this time; and to ask our children for forgiveness that we didn’t leave sooner – these are the things that feel so good and right now that we have left KWCC.
There are so many reasons that people are leaving KWCC. It’s not all about Steve W and the way he was so terribly treated. It’s not just the issue of polity. It’s not just the terrible legalism that still controls and rules over folks who are still there. There are some who have left because they feel like something isn’t quite right and they are trying to discern what God may be speaking to their hearts.
It’s been several months since I logged on here. But this time I will sign my real name. I am not scared or ashamed that this is the way I feel and I am sharing my story because I feel like we have to be honest about the things that were not done right and we need to seek God and strive to help others who are still wounded and can’t see the way out.
May God bless all those who have been wounded and are looking for the exit sign,
Michele Wingo
GNHB–Bill,
Just came back from worshiping at our messy church in Richmond. Would love to have you join us one morning…there is hope and lightness and freedom at many churches in our city, and I know that lots of KWers are finding that rest and freedom they long for as they scatter around joining with their brothers and sisters in Christ.
For years, you’ve been taught that only KW, of all the churches in our city, does church right.
That is a lie from the pit of hell. Literally. The body of Christ is spread evenly around the city in various forms, wonderful people, your brothers and sisters in Christ, dearly beloved.
I’m praying for you and your family right now.
Michelle,
Thanks for your post.
I am a friend of KWers, only attended once when we first moved to VA. The hair on the back of my neck stood up as soon as we entered the building (I’m ex-mormon) and our kids begged to leave midway through the whatever-they-call-it. We did and were so thankful to have done so.
In your opinion, as you look back to moving here (around the time we did), what made you desire so strongly to become a part of KW, and what caused you to essentially choose them over worshiping with your boys? (Not condemnation in the least, my sister, just curiosity.) So many friends (most of whom have now left KWCC) went there for years knowing something was not right, yet just couldn’t leave. Had you guys visited other churches in the area? If so, why was KWCC the one you chose?
Thanks for the insight, welcome to increased freedom in Christ!
There are so many reasons that people are leaving KWCC. It’s not all about Steve W and the way he was so terribly treated. It’s not just the issue of polity. It’s not just the terrible legalism that still controls and rules over folks who are still there. There are some who have left because they feel like something isn’t quite right and they are trying to discern what God may be speaking to their hearts.
This is an insightful paragraph. It applies all over SGM. People have a discernment that something is wrong, and they can’t figure out exactly what it is, and they can’t intellectually argue with what they hear from the top, and they think perhaps the problem is them, so they stay quiet with their nagging doubts.
There may be something hugely wrong that we will never know about. I have wondered for years if there is a perverted evil spirit stronghold that seduces young men, almost like a spiritual homosexuality. Charles Schmidt had a “moral failure” with a man back in the days when he was influential at GOB….I believe he was an “apostle” to GOB for a while.
So the perversion had some influence long ago.
I don’t mean to imply that anything is going on with CJ physically, I am sure he is faithful to his wife. But I used to watch the way he came in and tried to charm young men and draw them in and get them to himself; it was creepy and almost “gay”. Something is wrong, that’s for sure. The men at the top have sold their birthright, for what? approval from CJ? relationship with controlling men? It is all so creepy.
To the adoptive parent Bill- God bless you for what you did. Your reward is in heaven. Yes, SGM is not the place for people with serious struggles from being molested or abused.
In the past I posted under a pseudonym, mostly because I didn’t want the hassle of explaining. Frankly, I knew God wanted us out of Kingsway but we were both hard-pressed to articulate exactly why. We knew something was VERY VERY wrong there, so we quietly slid under the door and went away.
We spent two full years not darkening the doorway of any “church.” God wanted us out from under the sway of the “church” and its recipe of how to acsess God. We had pretty much had it with the authority thing from the pulpit and the need for money to keep the “machine” well oiled. We didn’t particularly enjoy the TWISTING of scripture to twist the arms of the “consumer” base to maintain cash flow.
The nail in the coffin, was when the sr. pastor (no need to name names
) ambushed a dear friend of mine that I sent to him because I actually thought that he meant what he said when he preached, “Please come to me if you see a piece of spinach stuck in my teeth!” Those from Kingsway know what I mean. My friend had an issue with the sr. pastor that he brought up in a care group, men’s meeting. I told my friend openly, that the sr. pastor would welcome his “observation” (oh how I now hate that word). I based that on the statement, “Please come to me if you see a piece of spinach stuck in my teeth!”
As most of you probably figured out, the meeting between my friend and the sr. pastor, didn’t turn out quite the way I, or my friend, thought it would. My friend left the meeting being accused of pride and a stubborn spirit and was given a copy of C.J.’s book on Humility. Needless to say my friend wasn’t exactly won over by the love of 1 Cor. 13. He and his family are now in a healthy place, as we are.
Michele and Bill, you have both taken the important steps to health. At least that has been my experience. Take your time! The two plus years of NO church attendance was healthy for us. When we finally admitted, however, that we are created for community, we were ready to recognize a healthy group of believers and especially a healthy pastor. Your Father is wooing you and inviting you into His loving life where there is NO recipe, no method, no list of principles to gain intimacy with Him. Intimacy is provided in Christ. Resting in that (abiding) results in His life flowing from Him in you affecting your environment like yeast affects dough.
Blessings to you, Michele and Bill, and your families.
opps, needed to check off the little box to recieve “followup comments via email”
Hi my brothers and sisters. I have nothing interesting to add to all your wonderful words and your wisdom. I just wanted to offer you sibling like hugs and an encouragement that our heavenly father is at work in your lives. Jesus loves you very, very much. Rest in that. Rest in Him.
My dear sister in Christ, up in comment 35, you were wrestling with what it is that makes SGM so oddly compelling. I think you’re right that there is a definitely an unnatural pull on young people — I would argue that it affects both young men and young women (I know I was just out of college when I started at CLC). In other places here and on Survivors, it’s been compared to a drug or alcohol addiction. When I first came to CLC in the mid-80s, I remember there being a spiritual warfare group, casting out demons for all kinds of things–addictions, manic-depression, and so on — around when Frank Peretti’s books were popular.
I’d like to ask you to consider that there are fellow Christians, fellow walking wounded from SGM who do not see homosexuality as
“perverted evil spirit stronghold”
“moral failure”
“perversion”
or even “creepy”
I understand that you likely see this too as something plainly taught in scripture–along with complementary gender roles–but I am resolved that I will speak up when folks get bullied.
RT -
You asked “why” we chose KWCC and I guess the second part of that question might be, “Why did we stay for 11 years?”
People choose a church for various reasons and I think those reasons are influenced by their past experiences and what they are looking for. In our case, we had come from a church that had weak leadership and poor teaching (but great worship) and so we were looking for strong, clear leadership and solid, Biblical teaching (along with good worship). When we got to KW (then Southside), we thought we had found what we were looking for. As I mentioned in my first post, we were not an ideal “fit” for KWCC. But we tried and tried to make it work because we really didn’t want to go church shopping. I actually think that’s what keeps people in bad churches: they don’t want to have to go church shopping. Maybe that’s what’s keeping some people in KWCC or other places when they really need to go. My prayer is that if you are reading this and you feel like God is speaking to your heart that you should leave your current church – trust Him and go now!
Dear Gender Neutral Bill
I have never been one of the “in people” at KW, but you and your family are always welcome at our home. You are like family to us and your new little ones are part of the whole deal. Our daughter was never accepted there because she is a bit different, and when I was going through a nightmare situation with my son, I was totally written off by all but a handful of people. When he later “straightened up” and was actually working on the new construction and was at the church building every day, there were only 2 men who would speak to him. Luckily by then he was strong in his faith and, rather than feel rejected, he was sad for the church as a whole and prayed for them. He saw a number of things that I just did not see. And yet, I persisted in staying and believing it was the right thing to do. I have so many regrets! But I think that God will put my bad experiences to good use. I am no longer going to KW and have found a place that brings me joy and peace and an opportunity to actually live for Christ. My heart is broken because of the rejection of our young people. I pray for them continually – daily during the daytime and sometimes in the middle of the night. My greatest hope is that the Good Shepherd will go out seeking those lost sheep, and that they would all return with Him.
Bill, Michele, the Linns, — We hear you…and we walk with you……
Thankyou for posting…. your experience and how Christ is meeting you and guiding you is your testimony…He IS continuing to redeem as He opens eyes and hearts to the mountain of leaven which defines SGM enterprises. Leaven operates in its attributes of manipulation,control, duplicity and destruction —- Jesus the Christ has come to bring us LIFE—abundantly! Knowing Him and hearing His Voice and leading is a precious gift….
In post #31, Michele W wrote”…there are some who have left because they feel like something isn’t quite right and they are trying to discern what God may be speaking to their heart.” ********************************
Michele, this is a significant truth — one, I believe, that must be at the forefront of our trumpet of alarm to our Brethren. We too expereinced that “nudge” — the “something is amiss” sense while members of SGM. Our great lesson in this has been — to decide to become alert and lean in and listen and pray and seek the Lord in regards to His ‘check’ of our environment. SGM has edged out the Holy Spirit– their primary goal is to maintain their own control of the church they are building according to their own blueprint — forgetting that Jesus is our Cornerstone and we, as Believers are Living stones –precious and valuable……..and actually being transformed, from glory to glory, into the image of Jesus the Christ (not cj/Gburg hill mini-me’s).
The “family of churches” known as Sovereign Grace has created an environment within their churches which pulls and seduces people into being THE SGM church. The peoples are then lulled to sleep — and submit their hearts and spirit to SGM man leadership. — This is a perversion of the liberty which was purchased for us by the Blood of the Son of God our Messiah.
Definition of pervert– ”to CAUSE to turn from what is considered right, good, or true;
misdirect; lead astray; corrupt; to change or misapply the meaning of; distort; twist.’
Therefore, as we have witnessed countless times, SGM TWISTS truth by:
>charging wounded and/or discarded Brethren with sin of pride etc.
>creates a robotic mold of SGM polity in the place of Believers operating by the mind of Christ (and using their brain for critical thinking)
>deflecting responsiblity of their sins of lying, manipulating, and destructively seeking to
control the flock (see this threads example of the KingsWay/GE travesty)
>Hijacking our heritage— our young people, with their spirit oppressive leaven
> CJ proclaiming SGM churches are the ‘happiest place on earth”……..while mauled sheep are strewn in many many fields
Saints—our family rejoices, that God has delivered us from Egypt/SGM. Though we experienced spiritual,emotional and mental assault and oppression — He rescued us and brought us OUT…He has redeemed us and called us by HIS Name…Like you, we are walking anew, childlike, and a little wobbly…but our hand is in His……….
And like you, our hearts cry for our brothers and sisters who have been lulled to sleep and we cry out to God to continue to reveal Truth and shatter duplicitous twistings of SGM.
“For God SO LOVED the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish—but have everlasting LIFE.”
Acme, I love your heart.
Eyes Opening, reading that only two men reached out to your son moved my heart.
Imagine this: you’re a Christian who has been praying for a young person to know Jesus or to know Jesus better. Would there be anything more exciting than to have this person working near you, day after day? How wonderful! What an answer to prayer!
To think that the people working at the church didn’t respond to the situation with a big old feast is so heartbreaking. What the heck are they doing there if not loving and seeking after the hurt and the lost?
Seriously, what?
Stunned: I am struggling with this very question. Why did/do they not seek after the lost? There is a caste-system at KCC: if you are at the top of the ladder (i.e. “spiritually mature”) you are sought after. Your company is desired, you get invited into people’s homes and into their lives. For someone who has been assessed as “spiritually immature” or with obvious, out-in-the open sins (like my family; we did not try to hide them. We were open, seeking counsel and were vulnerable) and we were shunned. Now I ask myself: are those at the top really better than me? Am I really more of a sinner than they? I believed the lie that they were better than me…. that I was more of a sinner and thus deserved to be excluded. When speaking, they all sounded “humble” (“I am a sinner. We are all sinners.”) but reality was that some people were treated differently than others. I am now realizing that I am not worse than anyone else. No better, mind you, but also no worse. But the effects of 9 1/2 years of living with that burden are great. There were times that I would go to church and many people had trouble making eye contact with me. To be sure, there were a small group of people who did stand by us, but even that was limited. There were some whom I thought were friends who abandoned us early on, while there were a very few who did stick with us. At a time when I needed support desperately, it was sorely lacking. Where was the shepherd ? Many sheep have been lost at KCC – where is the shepherd? Where has he been? Ezekiel 34 talks about God’s reaction to the shepherd who has not been tending the flock as He directed. The Good Shepherd will gather His flocks …… that is my prayer for all those who are still lost.
Eyes Opening,
I am ery sad to hear of your experience. Jesus draws near to the humble. You made yourself vulnerable to people you trusted, desiring to grow and change. There is nothing more precious to the Lord than a meek spirit. I am so sorry that you suffered by making yourself vulnerable to untrustworthy, unloving people. I think most of us here can say we did the same.
SGM leaders are created to raise up and train other SGM leaders. Remember, we were not even listed as “members” in thier financial filings. It was not our church but their’s, not God’s vision, but their’s.
I pray that you find a safe place to worship where pastors truly love and care for the sheep. I can promise you that Jesus will never betray your trust in Him, nor shun you because of your weaknesses. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you. He is seeking after those hearts who hunger for His presence. God bless you!
Eyes Opening, When you look at those so called “spiritually mature”, high up on the ladder people, probably considered leaders in your church, did you see Jesus Christ in them? That is really the question we must ask: where is/was Jesus in these people? Where was the love of Jesus? Where was the compassion of Jesus? Where was the very heart of Jesus in those people who shunned you? My guess is that was missing in those “spiritually mature” most desirable, leaders of your church. This is found in SGM churches around the country. The story is just too similar in all of these churches.
Look again at Is 61. We see who Jesus really is. He is the One who preaches the Gospelf of good tidings to the meek, poor, and afflicted. He was the One sent to bind up and heal the broken hearted. He proclaimed liberty to the catives and He opened the prison and eyes of those who are bound. If you are around Christians and you don’t see evidence of Jesus, run the other way. True there is no perfect man but if someone is walking closely with our Lord and Savior, we will see evidence of Him in them.
Also, as we look through the Gospels, we see that Jesus is the One who dined with sinners. Make no mistake though, it was the pharisees and those who defiled God’s temple that received His anger and great displeasure – not the sinners. Yes He told them to go and sin no more but He saw right through the pharisees – clean on the outside but dirty on the inside.
It is most certainly hard to get passed years of the wrong teaching, rejection and emotional abuse but God is faithful and He will heal you. Abide in the Vine, staying close to your Savior, listening to His love songs and words to you. Also, make sure that you are in a place where there is a good shepherd leading the flock and place where you will receive Truth (not man’s distorted gospel), and the love of Christ.
Eyes Opening, I’m sorry for what you suffered. It is twisted and convaluted. It makes me feel a bit naseous to think of how hurting people were abandoned while those who were healthy were fed and tended to. It never made sense to me. I wish there was something we could all do for each other or to take care of all of those who are walking in the path we used to trod. (Or be trod upon if I were to be honest.)
Eyes Opening said “There is a caste-system at KCC…..if you are at the top of the ladder (i.e. “spiritually mature”) you are sought after. Your company is desired, you get invited into people’s homes and into their lives. ”
EO – not just at KCC, it is a pillar of SGM. I know it doesn’t hurt any less – just letting you know.
Probably related to the fact that they are the “most humble” people ever
ww
Eyes Opening, you said: ”…those who were healthy were fed and tended to. It never made sense to me. I wish there was something we could all do for each other or to take care of all of those who are walking in the path we used to trod. (Or be trod upon if I were to be honest.)”
Good point…but the irony is that the ones at the top are not the healthy ones. The ones who run to Jesus out of need and pain are actually healthier.
I fear for the strong ones.
Beloved: a reader here at the Refuge has called our attention to the latest Sunday Service at KWCC. Check out the Sunday meeting from 1-30-2011. Comments?
http://www.kingswayaudio.com/?cat=7
What do you KW folks think?
P.D.
Prideful one day, Humble the next?
Everyone track with me on this one. How many of us have been plagued with a sin or even a personality flaw for years? We get prayer and zoom zoom all is perfect. It doesn’t happen that way very often. I am not saying that miracles don’t happen, but in this case everyone at KingsWay should take the tack that “time will tell.” Gene has confessed pride and an ungodly concern for his own reputation that a) should put him out of his leadership position at least for a season while he can be restored and b) his major decisions in recent years should be examined in light of what he identified as one of his major motivators including his insistence that a twenty something Pastors College graduate take the reigns as executive pastor.
But the SGM mechanism is not so forgiving and restorative. Who would there be to judge that Gene would be ready? The only “elders” are the remaining paid staff. Can they be objective? It will come back to its polity that will cause KingsWay to fall into the same trap.
What is apparent at KingsWay is a desperation to “be done with this.” The eight men involved were all so tired of this thing dragging out. They were highly motivated to end it and so, on Peacemaker’s last day at KingsWay, miracles happened. I am nor accusing anyone of being deceitful. I just think that everyone needs to take their time and verify that hearts were really changed.
For those who ask what happened to the Apostolic Team, SGM now provides an answer on its website:
What happened to the apostolic team?
January 18, 2011 by Andrew Mahr Categories: Questions from readers
David and Marie, both members of Sovereign Grace churches, recently wrote to us asking essentially the same question: does Sovereign Grace Ministries’ apostolic team still exist? Below is an expanded version of our responses to them, posted here in case others in our churches have the same question.
The apostolic team, for those of you new to Sovereign Grace Ministries, was for many years what we called the team of pastors who help us facilitate church planting, international ministry, and church care. But over time, we discovered the name confused more people than it helped, so now we’re considering alternatives. We’ve also gained a better understanding of the term “apostolic,” which makes us even more careful in how we apply it. So for now, the team is more commonly just called the regional leadership team. (For more on the role of apostolic ministry in the church’s mission, see Dave Harvey’s blog post, “Apostolic Ministry and Church Planting.”)
The “regional leadership” moniker comes from the fact that Sovereign Grace churches are currently grouped into eight regions, and each pastor on the team is responsible for serving the churches of one region. It’s a broad role, but primarily involves the following:
Helping pastors develop and execute church planting plans
Providing care and counsel for pastors when requested
Facilitating cooperation among churches for regional events, mission trips, or other activities
Coordinating the ordination process for new pastors
Building relationships with other churches who are interested in joining Sovereign Grace Ministries
Assisting in the assessment, training, and deployment of church planters
Below is a roster of the men currently on the team and a description of the regions they serve. If you’re a member of a Sovereign Grace church, please join us in praying for the man who fulfills this role in your area. They play a vital part in helping Sovereign Grace churches advance the Great Commission both locally and globally.
Dave Harvey, Covenant Fellowship Church (Glen Mills, PA)
Dave is responsible for church care, church planting, and international expansion for Sovereign Grace Ministries, so it is his responsibility to lead and coordinate the efforts of our regional leaders. You can read more about him on his bio page.
Aron Osborne, Metro Life Church (Orlando, FL)
Aron serves churches in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and the Caribbean. Danny Jones, who founded and led this region for several years, still serves as the senior pastor at Metro Life Church where Aron is based.
Craig Cabaniss, Grace Church (Frisco, TX)
Craig serves churches in Texas, Kansas, and Louisiana.
Gene Emerson, KingsWay Community Church (Midlothian, VA)
Gene serves churches in North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and West Virginia.
John Loftness, Solid Rock Church (Riverdale, MD)
John serves churches in Maryland and the Washington, DC, metropolitan area (including Northern Virginia). He is a recent addition to the team; Covenant Life Church pastor Kenneth Maresco used to lead this region, and still serves two churches in Africa because of his unique relationship with them.
Mark Prater, Covenant Fellowship Church (Glen Mills, PA)
Mark serves churches in Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and parts of Canada.
Pete Greasley, Christchurch (Newport, Wales)
Pete’s region is enormous—with the help of others, he serves churches in Europe, Australia, and parts of Africa and Asia.
Rick Gamache, Sovereign Grace Fellowship (Bloomington, MN)
Rick serves churches in Illinois and Minnesota.
Steve Shank, Sovereign Grace Church (Gilbert, AZ)
Steve serves churches in California, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, parts of Canada and Latin America, and because of existing relationships, the Philippines.
Looking Elsewhere, just curious- are you from the Kingsway church? Please forgive me if you’re not comfortable revealing that. I don’t want to pressure you.
I might also note that GE was a guest speaker here in Roanoke on Jan 16. It must have slipped his mind to mention that he lied about and ruined the reputation of the first pastor he sent here. He gave his regular message and never mentioned anything about the recent turmoil occuring in his own church.
KD is due here as a guest speaker next week.
We’re getting pretty uncomfortable with all this.
Discovered this quote, today. Wish I’d known how to do this while in PDI/SGM:
“Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence.” George Washington
We, in our controlling church, were asked to be intimate with many (tell our sins to groups of people), and those we had to open up to were not well tried before we were forced (out of “humility”) to give them our confidence. Now, so many are disillusioned by the betrayal of the trust they were forced to give to leaders they hardly knew.
PD, I did have a few thoughts about the message from Sunday. Thanks for posting. I had been wondering. It is significant that progress was made in bringing sin issues and the specifics into conversation and forgiveness is occurring. I hope the fruit of this will be that Gene and all the leadership in SGM may take an open look at themselves, with a few less blinders. (We all have them).
My second thought was that they did a good job in dealing with the sin issues and the fruit from them. But a deeper issue is one of mistaken theology, which seems to be causative of the whole situation in the first place. If I understand the history correctly, Steve didn’t even feel led to pastor that church in the first place. But he was not able to seek God on His own and be led directly by the Holy Spirit. He was overruled by those above him because since they occupy the realm of those who “stand in the stead of God” they must be right and he must be wrong. This is the mistaken presupposition that pervades most of the issues in the whole of SGM in one manifestation or another. If leadership had not presumed their own infallibility, the blunder of sending the wrong person would never have occurred.
I pray that as a season of humility and forgiveness opens up some doors of conversation, may God use this time to reveal to leadership the precariousness of presuming to speak for God. If leaders realize they are just as human as the rest of us and stop presuming otherwise, they will benefit from the wisdom that comes as the Body functions as a unified organism rather than an eldership cut off from the blood flow and nutrients it would otherwise gain (wisdom, accountability and benefits of other gifts of the Spirit etc). The church doesn’t have to be a democracy for this to happen. But as long as leaders think they are in a separate realm and have ultimate authority over the individual and no one has any authority over them, I fear these problems will just come again in some other incarnation.
Still praying! I hope they read and gain from Reformation history.
PD, upon listening to the tape of the Jan 31 KingsWay meeting,
I have several responses.
I am encouraged.
Encouraged to hear the men speak of breakthroughs.
Encouraged to hear the recognition of the congregants —the pain they have experienced;
Recognition of their hearts to pray and intercede on behalf of Truth.
Recognition of the pain and suffering done to the Steve W family due to the actions of GE
Thankful that this family (SW) who were misrepresented and maligned by GE and the congregants is now recognized and affirmed as the Godly people they are — the lies about them have been dislodged.
Thankful that the sr pastor, GE confesses the root of his pride—the love of his reputation.
Posters on Refuge who began the reports of the upheaval at KingsWay, whom we sometimes referred to as “The Band of Brothers”: T H A N K Y O U
YOU were the voices in the wilderness; uncovering lies, deceptions, maligning, and duplicitous actions by pastors and leaders into the Light — the Light of Truth DOES begin to shatter the darkness and shadows of deceptions and smokescreens. You were the prophetic voice to bring the ‘earthquake’ which FORCED KingsWay leadership to come out into the light and begin to confess the truth of what they had done to their Brother.
As I recall, two of the biggest issues brought out here on this site were:
A call for GE to take RESPONSIBILITY for his actions and
The reality that congregants who have been lied to by their sr pastor (for 10 years)
are not called to immediately TRUST him. Truth that has been broken, must be rebuilt.
These 2 issues were discussed during this Sunday meeting.
Saints, we are now at Chapter 2 of the KingsWay upheaval.
The Sr Pastor has actually publically taken RESPONSIBLITY for maligning and misrepresenting SW.
The Sr Pastor took RESPONSIBILITY for leading his CONGREGANTS into believing the misrepresentation (lies) about SW
Paul C, the PeaceMakers mediation representative alludes to the fact that TRUST
between congregants and pastors must be built.
Building—and building on a stong foundation— requires time.
Jesus exhorts us to be fruit inspectors. Fruit requires time. Major pruning and digging for diseased roots has occurred here — now we must be alert to examine IF good fruit will produce…….
Big Picture Questions:
Will these confessions cause SGM/CJMahaney/Purswell/DHarvey to SEE and repent of the diseased SGMpolity they have created and mandated their churches to abide by?
Will GE now SEE his ‘misrepresentation’ ofthe ’3 Couples’ in the Chesapeake Church? That he was responsible, along with KB and BC in leading the people of Chesapeake in believing the misrepresentations about the 3 Couples?
Will he and ANY SGM pastors and leaders recognize that the Believers heart of submission is to Jesus Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit and NOT SGM ‘doctrines’ ?
Will SGM pastors and leaders then begin to cease wounding, mauling, and controling the Brethren?
We hope so. We pray so. And we watch, and we are alert, for leaven requires radical eradication — lest it continues to infect and then reproduce.
PD
Thanks for sharing about the new message at Kingsway. It was interesting to hear. Sadly I have mixed thoughts on what I listened to.
It was good to see that some type of reconciliation happened. The talk seemed to focus more on bitterness towards and unloving correction of Gene’s sin vs. the root of the problem which was Gene’s sin. At least at the end of the message there was some confession by Gene Emerson of his sin but not specific mention of it like one would expect. Especially when Emerson’s sin resulted in the truth about a former pastor’s actions being slandered for 10 years one would expect a lot more confession and clearing the air. It was somewhat of a “dance around” the big sin issue.
Gene did mention one root of his actions was his concern for his reputation and that being an idol. I am sure that affected his dealings with the fiasco that happened at SGM Chesapeake. It was good to hear that.
They did talk about consequences for one’s sin. It was stated that forgiveness is one thing but there are consequences including loss of trust. It still is baffling how Gene Emerson is not having to face all the scriptural consequences of his sin, especially that Gene should step down from being an elder due to his actions according to scripture. That is one consequence Emerson isn’t apparently willing to face.
Also, it is reported about 1/2 of the membership have already left SGM Kingsway. Maybe Gene should have asked forgiveness for this affect his sin had on this local church.
Roanoker— you stated GE was at your church Jan 16 and NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT THE TURMOIL IN HIS OWN CHURCH in Midlothian?????????????
Even though YOUR CHURCH IN ROANOKE was/is also effected because SW was YOUR first pastor???????????????
I thought he said he saw how he had effected the people at KingsWay by deceiving them about SW???? But doesn’t see how Roanoke was/is effected?????????
You said “KD” is due here as a guest speaker next week— do you mean K B ????
Roanoker, when yer uncomfortable, check it out —Light is most likely uncovering what is hidden…………. How ARE ya’ll up there?????
You know; although it sounds like a move of God what happened from those meetings this past weekend, there’s something that really bothers me about how the congregation treated the families who brought the truth to the pastors of Kingsway and confronted Gene on how SW was treated throught this very long process and the other families who stood up for SW and his family.Are those in the congregation who shunned these families throughout this process all of the sudden going to start being loving to them again? Isn’t it time for you too to admit you were wrong as well for following your leader as he was trying to cover up to protect his reputation?
I’m not trying to be accusing but I think it’s something important to consider as well. BD might have not always been loving as he said in the message and confessed to, but that didn’t change the content of his message from being true. He wasn’t being devisive he was standing for a brother in Christ because it was very unjust how SW and his family were treated.I’m just curious why didn’t that bother some of you in the congregation? Why did you make excuses for your leader or accuse the men who cared enough to stand with SW as devisive??
Waters,
As one who also loves to ask questions, the Quizzler salutes you and your keen analysis of the situation!
As we know, talk is cheap; actions, not so much so. The actual fruit of the situation will be evident in actions. Will concrete and positive actions be taken regarding the various travesties of the past? Only time will tell. We must all wait for the actual fruit and not be satisfied by mere talk of the fruit.
N.S.L.B.
Waters:
Correct. Not a single word. How’s that for humble, open, honest, revealing, transparent, etc.? And yes, KB, not KD. That was a typo.
Maybe that’s why SGM calls themselves a ”family” of churches. It seems to be as dysfunctional as any real family that I know of.
And Waters, I can only address how we’re feeling personally. I don’t know about others here. There certainly seems to be less freedom here than when we first came. We’ve noticed it with the worship too. People used to dance during worship. We have already started preparing our children for a change.
We in no way want to be the cause of any division or discord so we haven’t said anything to anybody. People have to be discerning on their own and make their own decisions. But it’s beyond that, it’s weird. The feeling is like you can’t talk about this SGM stuff to anyone. It’s like the verse in John 7, “No one spoke openly of Him for fear of the Jews.” I know that’s out of context, but it’s the only way I can describe it.
It’s like it forces people to blog because you have no other outlet to express what you think.
And Waters, this affects EVERY SGM church under his care. Not just us and Kingsway. He supposedly provides care and counsel to all these other churches, pastors and CGLs in his region.
A 10-year lie and you’re not removed from apostolic leadership or wahtever they call it now? This is a joke, right?
Quizzler, so true— we must wait and ‘judge’ any forthcoming fruit (as Jesus instructed)
Agreed — any actions will speak of genuineness — will travesties of the past (like GE’s manipulative fiasco in Chesapeake) be publically repented of (since he and KB and BC publically slandered the 3 couples who were advocates for abused women?) This would be a root of deception and a stand for justice and righteousness which would benefit the church (operating through truth instead of deceptions is much more Biblical, right, SGM?)
Roanoker, I am once again picking up my mouth (though by now I should be accustomed to the duplicity). Here, GE and SGM show they continue to operate with the priority of APPEARANCE — looks like all must be shiney happy gracey in Midlothian and Roanoke and Fairfax and Chesapeake— the churches which, as you pointed out, GE has been “caring for” and “overseeing”.
Roanoker, the verse you refer to actually is a telling picture of the environment SGM polity creates and subtley (?) trains its people to abide by. No talking. No discussion. The difference between discussion and slander has become a blurred line. You know one of the most amazingly profound scriptures is when God Himself says “Come, let us reason together” (Isa 1:18) — In all of the Gospels we witness Jesus–talking—engaging—asking questions—bringing the truth of His redemption to all He comes in contact with.
And to whom is He aggressively confrontive with??? The teachers of the LAW who have placed undue burdens on the covenant people. The teachers of the Law intimidated the people—the people never ‘argued’ with a Pharisee. I believe this is an area which SGM operates in,some even unknowingly, to keep people from discussing what they are hearingfrom the Lord, what they are sensing by the Holy Spirit —how the Lord would move in ALL of HIs people, since the hand cannot say to the mouth ‘shut up’ (my interpretation!) the arm cannot say to the leg, ‘you don’t matter’.
Jesus simplified our focus to love the Lord our God with all of of our heart and with all of our soul and with all of our mind. And to love our neighbor as ourself (Matt 22:37,39)
And we are allowed allowed allowed to talk about His love, His ways and to ask questions, to ask, to seek to knock and when Christ in usalerts us to a wrong-doing we are to press in—to care and love and protect and fight for one another. This is not slanderous
Love is worth fighting for— and this with KingsWay has been a fight for truth.
So many amazing comments! I am so relieved to see some very truthful assessments of this recent development at KWCC and the Peacemakers involvement. My husband and I were at KW on Sunday although we officially left a few months ago. Many people who had left (but have continued to be praying) were asked via e-mail (Sat. night) to attend on Sunday morning so we went not really knowing what to expect but we were very cautious in our hearts. We didn’t know how we’d be received and we didn’t really know what to expect. We did not want a quick resolution to what has been a long drawn-out and complicated situation and we did not want to be put in a situation where we’d be forced to make some kind of quick assessment or have to all take communion together or some other sort of expression of unity. Some people there on Sunday morning seemed very ready to have this whole mess over with and have everything to just go back to normal and everybody be family again. That was obvious by how quickly a few people shouted their affirmation to Gene when he asked the church’s forgiveness. I’m not saying that we not forgive, but I was so relieved when the Peacemaker rep. Paul Cornwall immediately cautioned the congregation from replying too quickly. And I must say that Paul Cornwall seemed to be a very wise and godly man and for what he could speak to (the relationships, not the leadership structure or any polity issues of SGM) he did so with much love and concern for the individuals that had been affected negatively by this situation. So after having sat through the whole experience on Sunday and after having reviewed my own notes, it is so encouraging to read the comments that others have posted after they listened to the KW podcast.
To Roanoker -
We really feel for you. Almost like the heart of an older sibling for a younger. Trust what God is saying to your heart.
To Quizzler -
You are so right when you said, “only time will tell.” That is exactly right. So many times we were taught through SGM teachings to judge the fruit – we were told this about our children when we questioned their walks with the Lord. So I would agree with you totally: we must look at the fruit now and see what it looks like. And only time will tell. So should we all stick around KWCC to see what happens or has the damage been done? For us, there has been too much loss of trust and we have serious issues with the leadership structure to stay.
To Seeking Truth -
You mentioned about the families that shunned the families of BD, SW, and perhaps BM. This is important because I know for a fact that two of those families are still reeling from Sunday and trying to process what this all means. AND you are also right, BD was not being divisive when he tried for years to bring these issues to Gene’s attention. In my opinion, he was sounding an alarm to the body. BD was using his gifts (those gifts that God gives the body to serve the body and protect it) to bring attention to a terrible wrong that had been done.
And to Waters -
I was waiting to hear you check in! Thank you for your comments! And I think you mentioned something about the folks in Chesapeake who were hurt. I wonder if any of Gene’s “epiphany” will bring any healing to that situation.
Frankly, this whole situation has weighed heavy on many hearts for such a long time now. I want to see the Holy Spirit do something miraculous, but I want the Holy Spirit to do it. I don’t want people to just give up in desperation and let bygones be bygones. That does not honor God or His body and prayerfully, He won’t allow that to happen.
Heavy Hearted said “I don’t want people to just give up in desperation and let bygones be bygones. That does not honor God or His body and prayerfully, He won’t allow that to happen.” There is a reason all this happened.”
There is a reason for the wrong polity. There is a reason GE would even have an idol of reputation. It’s because he thought he could hear from God for another person (Steve). If leadership realizes they are normal people, there would be less of a tendency for them to have a reputation to fall into idolatry. If they are true servants like everyone else (is supposed to be) and God is TRULY seen as sovereign, instead of the lip service they offer, they will not feel the need to control everything, including how their reputation is perceived. There would naturally be a more scriptural polity if they don’t feel they are in charge of everything. Even if they never change their polity on paper, if they just changed how they see themselves and lowered themselves down to where everyone else was, naturally there would be more feedback and accountability.
Waters had these Big Picture Questions:
Will these confessions cause SGM/CJMahaney/Purswell/DHarvey to SEE and repent of the diseased SGMpolity they have created and mandated their churches to abide by?
Will he and ANY SGM pastors and leaders recognize that the Believers heart of submission is to Jesus Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit and NOT SGM ‘doctrines’ ?
Will SGM pastors and leaders then begin to cease wounding, mauling, and controling the Brethren?
All of these stem from their mindset that they stand in the Stead of God. They believe they speak for God and logically it would follow that their words (and opinions) would be equal to scripture. So therefore, the believers don’t need to consult scripture or seek God for themselves. The leadership mindset indicates they must know better anyway. And the polity is a result of the mindset also. Leadership stands in God’s stead. How can mere mortals possibly have the wisdom to chose their own leaders? It’s the same root cause. Until CJ and company stop telling their pastors they stand in for God these issues will not be resolved the problems will not be put to rest.
I apologize for being a broken record (remember that old phrase?), but it explains everything (at least to my puny understanding!)
HeavyHearted, Thankyou for posting. When I think of the many in KingsWay who took a stand for Gods righteousness and stepped out of the snare of SGM, and have continued to pray and pray for the Brethren, not only for KingsWay but for the SGM churches– You have been and are significant in the exposing and seeking to purge out the leaven in SGM polity —faithful servants of the Lord!
My heart sings these verses with you:
“Be Thou my vision, O Lord of my heart,
Naught be all else to me — save that Thou art;
Thou and Thou only
First in my heart——-
High King of Heaven, my treasure Thou art!”
Hi Heavy Hearted. Thank you for taking the time and come on here to share your thoughts. It is good to have insight. I come from the same place- wait and see and we will see. We just don’t know which we will see. So we wait.
You said, “You mentioned about the families that shunned the families of BD, SW, and perhaps BM. This is important because I know for a fact that two of those families are still reeling from Sunday and trying to process what this all means.” I was just curious, when you said, “I know for a fact that two of those families are still reeling from Sunday” were you referring to BD, SW and BM or were you referring to the families who had shunned them in the past?
Heavy hearted,
You asked…………”So should we all stick around KWCC to see what happens or has the damage been done?”
Wisdom would say, leave now and protect your family from the corruption. If things do, in fact, turn around you can always go back! In the mean time, you can explore the greater Body of Christ and meet some other members of the Body who may be a true blessing to you and your family…….. Watch for the fruit.
N.S.L.B.
So this is it….this is exactly the outcome that was planned by dragging this thing out as long as they did. They left the congregation out of the process for so long, that those who stayed just wanted it to be over, is how it seems to me.
The man lied for 10 years while parading around as an Apostle and the only consequence is a quick sorry to the congregation. What a load….if I was at another SGM church and this man is PAID to speak at my church-I would demand a public apology to all SGM churches for his lies.
BB,
Yes and yes ..yer not a broken record!!—but reminding us of the huge main malfunction in SGM Polity –the elitism of their pastors/leaders as they view themselves as “standing in the very stead of God”– they usurp the place of Holy Spirit in every Believers lives, determining that they hear the MOST clearly — control , control, control.
PK actually wrote an excellent piece on SGM Polity last year — highlighting the error of the great chasm between congregants and leadership.
And as another broken record, SGM Polity has refined and redressed the attributes of the Shepherding Movement in their hierarchy of control, along with deceptive and duplicitous actions when confronted with their abusive tactics.
As “Quizzler” exhorts— “Leave now and PROTECT your family”
Waters, since PK must step down from the Refuge, my vote is for you to take it over!! Please consider and pray about this as a possibility! You are so encouraging and you have such depth in what Holy Spirit is saying through the issues.
Seeking Truth,
I really appreciate your questions to the congregants of KingsWay who participated in shunning BD and others who were advocates of righteounsess on behalf of SW and his family.
Sadly, we too have witnessed and been the recipients of our Brethren who blames us for being ‘divisive’ and ‘bitter’ when bringing pastoral unChristlike actions to the light. This is such a sad diseased fruit which the SGM leadership produces in its family of churches. I pray, truly, that with PeaceMakers admonition, the congregants at KingsWay will also see any areas where they have blamed or shunned those who stood on Gods Word on behalf of the brother who was maligned and lied about. And take the opportunity to receive Gods forgivness and determine to walk in love with their brotherse and sisters.
Fred,
From a line of one of our favorite movies, ‘Sandlot’ —”yer killin’ me, Smalls”!!
I am not the one……..and I don’t know what is stirring with that position—tho I’m sure PK and PD are looking at options. I think others who have written on this forum would be good candidates –we shall all see what the Lord has ahead!
Musicman,
The funny thing is, now all who read on this forum are able to see the lonnnnnng process SGM puppeteered in this series of mediations — knowing full well that PeaceMakers goal is always for reconciliation.
Ultimately, the result in the KingsWay travesty is—SGM control. The ruling idol of “standing in the very stead of God” remains.
KingsWay LOST 1/2 of their congregants— thank you Lord, for setting Your people free.
Trust must be rebuilt between the pastoral staff and the congregants — how will that walk out in the grip of SGM’s destructive polity?
KingsWay, Gene Emerson and pastors, SGM CJ,DHarvey, JPurswell,
consider these words from poster BB, quoting from the post #6:
‘If leaders realize they are just as human as the rest of us and stop presuming otherwise,they will benefit from the wisdom that comes as the Body functions as a unified organism rather than an eldership CUT OFF from the blood flow and nutrients it would otherwise gain (wisdom, accountability, and benefits of other gifts of the Spirit, etc).’
And a reminder, guys, YOU are NOT the Head of the Body
Nor do you stand in His stead to dictate to any Believer
Nor do you carry the title of The (wonderful) Counselor
Please cease standing on the veil of the Bride, hindering and muddying the journey
I posted this on the SGM Survivors blog but thought I would also post this here.
If you go to the following link you see a summary of what C.J. Mahaney said about “pastor priorities” and can also download a document he wrote:
http://www.challies.com/articl.....cktabs_1=2
This is part of what Mahaney wrote:
“There are, of course, some sins that are particularly serious, both in the effect they have upon others and what they reveal about the condition of the heart. Even a single instance of such sins—sexual immorality, financial impropriety, violent behavior, etc.—would automatically disqualify a man from pastoral ministry. Beyond such grave instances of sin, however, a serious ongoing pattern of disobedient deviation from biblical requirements in the life of a pastor can also be disqualifying.”
I wonder how “a serious ongoing pattern of disobedient deviation” can not apply to Gene Emerson. Doesn’t that describe Gene Emerson’s actions?
In the next paragraph Mahaney says “Repeated examples of deceptive behavior, on the other hand, call into question a pastor’s trustworthiness.” Wasn’t 10 years of hiding the truth that Gene Emerson did a “repeated example?” One can also look at what he did at SGM Chesapeake.
A sad example of where C.J. Mahaney can say one thing and allow something quite contradictory to happen in SGM.
If you haven’t seen Kris’s comment today on Mahaney “covering up” and having a double standard for his son you might want to take a look at it.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....ment-30886
comment 110 & comment 111 and comment 117
A sad egregious example of Mahaney not practicing what he preaches.
Steve240,
How right you are. There definitely is a double standard in SGM (one for the leaders and one for everyone else).
If reports are true that 1/2 the congregation at Kingsway is now worshiping Christ elsewhere, there may be great fear within SGM leadership that those remaining will also leave if their “hero”, Gene is forced to step down.
Gene’s exploits have been clearly revealed and the ball is now squarely in SGM’s court.
Time for a pop-quiz…………..
In the case of Gene E. the right thing for SGM to do is….
A) Invite Gene to find employment elsewhere
B) Send Gene to the pastor’s college for re-education (if the PC is still in business)
C) Coerce Peacemakers into coming up with a position that will support keeping Gene in place
D) Send Gene to be mentored by Keith B. (one good turn deserves another)
E) Promote Gene to the senior leadership team of SGM
N.S.L.B.
I vote for F, as in the whole Apostolic/ Regional Leadership team step down for their obvious failure to discern Gene lies and the hurt he caused. Also, a generous payout to the pastor who lost his job. The payout should be equal to 10 years of pay plus an extra payout for the emotional turmoil. This would begin to look like justice, in my opinion, anything less is just words without action.
All those involved in Apostolic leadership (Gene included) should agree to at least 10 years out of ministry.
Steve240,
Thankyou for the link for CJ’s “pastor priorities”……..
Indeed, this gives one cause to wonder WHY SGM/CJM has stubbornly dug in their heels to retain GE — Even to the point of calling in PeaceMakers (a first in this kind of duke-out with an errant SGM pastor involved). I can’t help but wonder if they (SGM) are quite miffed that the travesty in KingsWay was brought to light on…..T H E B L O G ……… Oh My..!
The God-honoring, Biblically sound admonitions and exhortations to follow scripture posted by Mike Drewry, MB, and others—- couldnot be argued against, nor could SGM charge them with their normal “pride” and “rebellion” assaults. The pastoral sins and maligning (for 10 years) of a Godly man and his family were so blatantly OBVIOUS— SGM had to pull some kind of trump card — enter, PeaceMakers.
PeaceMakers carries a sound reputation within the Christian community — perhaps now, PeaceMakers has seen up close and personal the twisting,dillusional, leaven-filled,diseased SGM polity and how it adversely effects the Brethren. Because the bottom line is, in SGM, the congregants are not heard, and the congregants are not as valued as pastors and leaders.— I wonder, how can Peacemakers ‘fix’ the layers of SGM polity, and thus bring ‘reconciliation’ to the fields strewn with mauled sheep??
I listened to the message, and I have to say that I haven’t been part of a church that wouldn’t benefit by such a process. Paul displayed incredible godly wisdom, but I have no doubt that part of that has come from him having gone through such a process himself in his relationships with others. Have any of us not come to such a place, where we needed God to do deep surgical work in our hearts in order to restore relationships with others? I have, and I am so grateful that God shows no signs of being either cynical or sarcastic with me. It is, after all, He who is the finisher of the work He has started.
I believe they said there were 44 problems identified, and began with four of them. They stated that there was much more to be done. And it seems that the very origin of the mess was addressed in how they had mistreated SW and his family.
I am confused regarding our hope here. Is it our hope that God will bring change and healing, or is it that more lives be devastated in the wake of the failure of a ministry, simply because ours have been. Wouldn’t we rather see God do miracles? Have we created limits to His ability to do this? And if so, then isn’t there a better way for us to spend our time rather than venting over something that ain’t ever gonna change?
And let’s not forget that this message was posted on the WWW for all the world to hear. None of this is being hidden, having to be reported to the list by attendees. They are openly expressing their sin. There we see some change.
I’m just saying….I don’t think this was in ANY way an attempt to get this behind them. I believe that God did in that room exactly what He has done in many of our own hearts….and maybe, we need to ask Him to do again for us now.
Wow,
Be careful that you don’t get caught up in the process instead of focusing on the problem.
The process, is questionable, at best, as it is completely controlled by SGM through their manipulation of Peacemekers and the people down at Kingsway. The process seems to be an intellectual approach to mitigating the problem which was, and still is, Gene’s disqualification for pastoral leadership.
No amount of analysis, discussion, meetings, theatrics, or piety will solve the problem.
We all know what needs to be done to solve the problem and for true healing to take place. If Gene is truly repentant why doesn’t he do the right thing and step down; for the good of the church?
N.S.L.B.
Wow,
Thankyou for posting. I think we are all in agreement that we, as you stated, hope that God will bring change and healing. And I believe God has been in the midst from the beginning. —
One of the means of truthful communications He has used is Brethren who have come out of the confines of the SGM polity ‘doctrinal’ mandate of silence. I also believe that NONE of us desire to see “more lives desvastated in the wake of a failure of a ministry, simply because ours have been.” No, indeed, our family is assertive in continuing to help and walk with those who have been and are, wounded by the SGM leadership. We must decide, continually, to see the reality of wounds– and submit ourselves as we pray with others, to the readied healing under the ‘heart surgery’ of our loving Father.
You see, for almost 20 years SGM has established the great sin of ‘slander’ and ‘gossip’ into the spiritual DNA of its congregants. Slander and gossip ARE sin. Speaking truth and being a witness/advocate for people who have been abused, spiritually, emotionally and mentally, by SGM leadership, is NOT a sin. After these many years, the leadership has grown accustomed to controling and muzzling their people while continuing in the momentum of destructive ‘counseling’ and twisting of scripture to meet their church unified agenda. Sadly, after mannnnnny Brethren have brought appeals and confronted them with their duplicitous tactics, they chose/choose to continue in their man-breathed polity.
Since the Lord has seen fit to bring Truth into the Light, which can no longer be hidden or ‘misrepresented’ —We are watching His ability to do miracles! — nothing can be hidden from Him!-and by His mercy He brings us all into the light—to give opportunity to SEE and heal. Sadly, we humans have that propensity to look to the law and follow an earthly leader/king — no, He simplifies for us—to love the Lord first and (value) our neighbors as much as ourselves.
Mr. Cornwall sounds a genuinely compassionate Godly man — in the tape we hear his gentle yet strong naviagtion for all the particiapants. Forgiveness and openness is occurring — we are thankful to hear this. And PeaceMakers will be mediating between the individual people (this is the heart of their needed ministry)–”they have identified 44 problems,have begun with four of them, and there is much more that needs to be done.”
The irony is, SGM has retained GE in the pulpit while expecting congregants to have full trust in him and the SGM process (almost 6 months now)—yet this same extension of pursuing healing and truth and restoration has not been extended to SGM congregants for tha past 20 years.
Instead, we former congregants have sounded the alarm of the effects of SGM Polity:
*Silencing congregants and charging them with pride and rebellion when bringing to light abusive tactics of pastors
*Pastors and leaders who threaten church discipline to abused wives for not following their orders to remain in an abusive situation
*Undermining marriages, even to the point of their endorsement of a wife turning away from a huband who questions SGM doctirne
*Leadership orchestrated meetings which are deceiving,thus causing the congregants to believe and be part of a lie
*SGMPolity which teaches their pastors they “stand in the very stead of God” to the degree that many have usurped the position of the Holy Spirit — often not discerning wolves in their midst which have mauled the innocent, and leaders choose to cover and /or deflect the sins of the perpetrators.
Sobering. And alarming. Let us continue to pray, to be engaged, and continue to ask and believe God for miracles of cleansing on behalf of His own people. Our brothers and sisters…. that we may reflect Jesus the Christ, the King of Glory.
Waters
Excellent post. It sad that your insight is so true about SGM.
I have said this before, but I will say it again: this whole KingsWay fiasco is not just about SW and the other 7 men. This thing had an impact on everyone who attended KCC. What leadership did, was modeled by many, with the result that a number of people felt rejected and suffered in varying degrees. The effects of polity, the teachings, the double standards, the hypocrisy — SW was not the only one to be hurt by these things. For his sake and the sake of his dear family, I am very glad that reconciliation has been accomplished. But there is a larger picture here.
I did not go to the KCC meeting last Sunday when Paul Cornwell spoke, but I did listen to the message. At the end of the CD Paul talked a little bit about trust. He said that trust needs to be earned. Forgiveness is given, but trust needs to be earned. He then mentioned the need for ‘Altered Behavior’ as a factor in re-establishing trust. It was just a very brief statement at the very end of the message.
So the question for each family now is: what will that look like for you and your family? Do you return or remain at KCC and hope that eventually trust will be re-established? Do you stay away and keep tabs on things in case behaviors are altered – in which case trust would be earned? Or something in between?
I may be wrong on this, but it seems to me that many of the folks who are wanting to “let bygones be bygones” are those who were not hurt (or only minimally hurt) by the situation at KCC. In my case the actions of the leaders, and also actions of some of the members who had been influenced by the actions of the leaders, caused great harm to my family and to myself. There is a part of my life and a part of my family that has been totally destroyed and we can never get that back. Yes, it is important for me to forgive, not for their benefit but for my own, but placing myself back in a position of vulnerability would not really be wise.
At the end of the message Paul turned to Gene and said, “Altered behavior, right Gene?” and Gene said “yes.” I submit that THAT is the major point for most of us. What behaviors will be changed? When?
For those whose lives were not devastated by KCC, this may not seem to be imperative. If you have little to forgive then count your blessings. But as Paul Cornwell stated: Forgiveness is given, but trust must be earned. When we earn wages, the pay is not given out prior to the job being done. One gets paid after the work is completed. In my case, I have serious reservations about placing myself back into an environment that caused so much damage to my family.
Each family will have to pray and do what they feel God wants them to do. How will the trust factor look for you?
EyesOpening,
Thankyou for writing again — and keep speaking the truth!!: “This whole KingsWay fiasco is not just about SW and the 7 other men. This thing had an impact on everyone who attended KCC. What leadership did- was modeled by many, with the result that a number of people felt rejected and suffered in varying degrees.”
The KingsWay upheaval/fiasco has been significant from the beginning. For him who has eyes to see and ears to hear— God unveiled the years and roots of sin at His appointed time. And in the light of day we watched how SGM ‘handled’ it.
Sadly, the leaven of the law DOES infect—and the congregants of SGM are infected, whether they realize it or not (and we didn’t for years). Therefore the congregants will follow the model of their leaders—to the degree of wounding their fellow brethren who have stood for righteousness. Its so very sick.
EyesOpening, the points you make about trust are so important. Its almost ‘common sense’ to realize when trust has been broken, in such a deep and spiritually wounding manner it will take timmmmmmmmmmmmmme to be restored. And certainly when the perpetrator is someone in authority– teacher, pastor, parent, etc etc the person in authority would need to be removed for a season —for their good and the good of the rebuilding.–
-PeaceMakers is beneficial for mediations between persons. However, in my opinion, not in a case like this — the very core and root of GE’s actions are ensconced in SGMPolity— The pollutant layers of which, must be dynamited by the power of the Holy Spirit. Because they have shot and exiled the ‘watchmen’ on the walls who have attempted to trumpet warnings warnings warnings—truly, I have a sense of deep soberness–the kind where you step back and sadly watch coming consequences.
Again I plea, especially for those who are in SGM churches who have experienced implosions and leadership duplicity and woundings come to light— go. Go lest you become so neutralized you can no longer even sense the stirrings of the Holy Spirits warnings. Go — to avail redemptive heritage for your children.
Saints, when duplicity is uncovered in our midst, choose not to be a part of it
‘The integrity of the upright guides them,
but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.’ Prov 11:3
*duplicity— deceitful; underhanded
EyesOpening, KingsWay,
I’m wondering if you know if any monetary compensation was offered to SW ?? As I recall, that was a question at the first open meeting about all this last August.
Since SGM always speaks of integrity, and the importance of humility and integriy in all aspects of a Christians life, I wonder— did they, ‘voluntarily’ seek to restore finances to the SW family? Of course in a court of law, financial compensation/restoration would be called for —Did KingsWay, out of Christlike care, take responsibility in this area?
I would love to hear a yes. ????????
Waters: I do not know if any restitution was made. These kinds of details were not made public after the PeaceMakers left. The men did invite people to ask them questions related to themselves personally but I have not asked Steve that question nor do I know of anyone who has. Perhaps someone else at KingsWay knows? I am like you – I would love to see compensation given to him.
Thankyou for answering, EyesOpening. We do hope to hear financial restitution has occured. Although, it does seem KingsWay would inform their congregants of this,since that would shown an affirmation of their sincere desire for practical/financial restoration for the SW family.
Here in our state, a Peacemaker mediating couple list the “Peacemaker ICC Mediating” fee of $75– $220 an hour, depending on the case. Perhaps that is standard. The fee for the Peacemakers mediator who mediated at KingsWay should be listed on the church financial statement.
Surely KingsWay was eager to take their responsiblity to aid in financial restitution for SW, just as they were eager to call in and pay for the help of Peacemakers.
Does anyone from KingsWay have good news about this?
P.S.– Because Peacemakers is a Ministry,supported by financial gifts etc (re:quite a chunk given from SGM Enterprises), perhaps the charge for mediating KingsWay was minimal.— Point is, were the KingsWay and SGM staff equally prepared to bring financial restitution to SW as they were to aquire Peacemakers services?
Do hope to hear good news!
Waters……
You may be onto something when you said……..”perhaps the charge for mediating KingsWay was minimal.”
SGM and Peacemakers have been cross-promoting eachother for years.
Check this out…..
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....stors.aspx
And here’s another one ..….
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....e-(1).aspx
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....e-(2).aspx
and another one…..
http://sovereigngraceministrie.....ility.aspx
and the lovefest continues (Peacemakers reciprocates)….
http://www.peacemaker.net/site.....eakers.htm
The Wartburg Watch “gets it”….
http://thewartburgwatch.com/20.....kingmaker/
Quizzler is highly suspect of the veracity of any organization that has financial or promotional ties to SGM.
Having Peacemakers mediate the Kingsway fiasco is just like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
Watch for the fruit…………..
N.S.L.B.
……..and speaking of “lovefests”……….the Baptists just can’t get enough of CJ!!
check THIS out
…but then, he’s bought his way in over the years, hasn’t he?
N.S.L.B.
The big Q said, “Having Peacemakers mediate the Kingsway fiasco is just like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.”
HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Stunned, you crack me up.
Ok, Quizzler— I had to look up that word, ‘veracity’! Great definition:
Veracity — habitual truthfulness; honesty; accordance with truth; accuracy of statement
In one of the links you provided— a quote from Ken Sande:
‘Churches can wrongly over-protect their leaders. They develop a self-confidence and blind loyalty that compels them to become defensive and automatically ‘circle the wagons’ when a leader is questioned or accused of wrong-doing.”
??????????
And when the wrong-doing perpetrated by a pastor is defammatory against one of their congregants — I guess thats a whole ‘nuther scenario when its an SGM pastor.
Peacemakers circled the wagons along with SGM. What a horrible picture.
Our court system recognizes the destructive assaults which come upon one who has been the recipient of defamation of their character. Not so, SGM and peacemakers
Again, the KingsWay debacle was not about “conflict resolution”.
But the uncovering of SGM polity which enables legalistic pastors to wound and maul Gods own people. KingsWay and GE perpetuated the very shrines SGM preaches against:
*Defamation — the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm.
*Slander – involves the making of defamatory statements
And a closing quote from Jerry Bridges:
“Legalism does indulge the sinful nature because it fosters self-righteousness and religous pride.”
Does self-righteousness expect trust — instead of earning trust?
Does pride insist on its position and the loyalty of its ‘servants’?
Does fruit grow and reproduce overnight?
Are we able to distinguish types of fruit?
Watching for fruit— so far, there is a sickeningly rotten aroma………
It looks like the dust has settled at KingsWay. Gene Emerson has successfully used Peacemakers to disarm the ticking time bomb that he started ten years earlier with the whole Roanoke debacle. Keith has moved to Charlottesville to start a new SGM church. Aaron will soon go from part-time pastor to no-time pastor. He will be in good company with Steve W., Craig R., James B., Steve P. to name just the last ten years of former pastors at KingsWay. It will be down to three: Gene, Matthew and Doug. Oh yes, there will be intern Bryan, who helps to lead worship. I have to wonder what they have in store for him.
But observing the aftermath of all this, we have to ask: Has anything really changed other than everyone seems to be all lovey-dovey and forgiving? When we look at the situation, KingsWay must ask themselves, what got them here? I have the answer: wacko theology, bad polity and personal agendas.
Gene demonstrated wacko theology ten years ago, when he brushed off Steve’s emotional issues regarding leading the Roanoke congregation as “the sin of unbelief.” Have we heard Gene say that he realizes he was wrong by believing that? No. He has only admitted that he was wrong in the way he treated Steve. But his 1990′s belief system is why he treated Steve the way he did. I think if you asked him today, he would still tell you that Steve’s reaction to being pushed into the Roanoke thing was demonic oppression or some other nonsense. I think pastoral oppression might be a better diagnosis.
So now the church is in the same place it was ten years ago. Gene is at the helm and two younger pastor/elders below him. Do you think any major decision can be opposed when these guys’ livelihood is in the balance? Where the voice of the church itself is muted? But in reality, the 250 or so that are still there are in agreement with Gene and SGM anyway now that most of the critics have left.
They still refuse to recognize that elders can be anything other than paid staff and so they deprive themselves of the checks and balances that come from having godly men from the congregation with equal power of the pastor when it comes to major decisions Men who have no financial pony in the race. This is 1999 all over again.
Free From KWCC,
Thankyou for reporting on the aftermath of the KingsWay upheaval
“Gene Emerson has successfully used Peacemakers to disarm the ticking bomb that he started 10 years earlier with the whole Roanoke debacle. Keith has moved to Charlottesville to start a new SGM church. Aaron will soon go from part-time pastor to no-time pastor…It will be down to three: Gene, Matthew and Doug.”
Free, the KingsWay travesty is testified of here on this thread. The spins, the deflections, the reality of domineering SGM polity over truth,righteousness and justice are recorded.
The known long-time members of KingsWay, men and women of integrity and spiritual maturity fought the good fight of the faith ,wielding the Sword of the Spirit—clearly exposing truths and deceptions. SGM response?— maintain control and continue in their status quo.
The snare of SGM’s religous,life-choking polity will be exposed again and again, for they have come to believe in themselves and believe their own deceptions.
Gods mercy is Light, which exposes their duplicity and love of control—and in each church upheaval, more Brethren begin to see…and are then delivered from the SGM snare.
For the SGM captives to be set free and know the liberty of the unfailing love of God,
I am thankful.
Free From KWCC,
As you reported on the Doctrine Reloaded thread, CJ Mahaney is scheduled to speak this Sunday at KingsWay. This news has propelled me to pray for those at KingsWay once again –those who have remained and those who have removed themselves from SGM leadership.
In our lives, people of SGM we once walked with have warned others not to speak with us too frequently—and this is under the guise of “protecting” others from us! Perhaps some of you former KingsWay brethren have experienced similar experiences.
Speaking truth and confronting the spirit of religion….. is NOT sin ………
In Galatians, as the apostle Paul contrasted their issues of faith versus the law….he then asks of them: “Have I now become your enemy because I am telling you the truth?”
(Galatians 4:16)
This is truth, KingsWay Band of Warriors who stood for Truth:
“God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, gave to you, spiritual wisdom and insight so that you continue to grow in your knowledge of God. Your hearts are flooded with LIGHT so that you can understand the confident hope HE has given to those whom HE has called—HIS Holy people who are HIS rich and glorious inheritance! You are understanding the incredible greatness of Gods power for us who believe in HIM. This is the SAME mighty power that RAISED Christ from the dead and seated Him in the place of honor at Gods right hand in the heavenly realms. Now He is far above ANY ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else— not only in this world but in the world to come. God has put all things under the authority of CHRIST and has made HIM head over all things for the benefit of the church. And the church is HIS body; it is made full and complete BY CHRIST, who fills all things everywhere with HIMSELF.” (Eph 1: 17-23)
{NLT}
May our Risen Redeemer continue to set His people free from the grip of SGM polity, and continue HIS work of changing us ‘from glory to glory’, into HIS image.
to the noble, faithful and honorable men who have stood up and spoken up in love and TRUTH in KWCC, I encourage you and commend you:
RISE UP O MEN OF GOD!
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and soul and mind and strength
to serve the King of Kings!!
to serve the King of KINGS!!
RISE UP O MEN OF GOD!!
His Kingdom tarries long.
Bring in the Day of Brotherhood.
End the Night of Wrong!
End the Night of Wrong!
RISE UP O MEN OF GOD!!
The Church for YOU doth wait!
Sent forth to serve the needs of men
Christ our strength is great!
CHRIST OUR STRENGTH IS GREAT!
Lift High the Cross of Christ!!
Tread where His feet have trod.
As brothers of the Son of Man,
Rise up, O Men of God.
RISE UP O MEN OF GOD!!
RISE UP O MEN OF GOD!
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and soul and mind and strength
to serve the King of Kings!!
to serve the King of KINGS!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBM5pU-i4
A M E N A M E N, to the Men (and women) of God who stood for Truth!
And,—great to ‘see’ you again, Defended!