Beloved in Christ:
The following originally appeared as a comment by Christian brother “MB” under “The KingsWay Way” post at 2010/08/28 at 1:12 pm.
It is compelling, and many of you will see yourself in MB’s words.
Let me get out of the way so you can read this, and share your thoughts…
–pk
~~~
What started as a response to GNHB [GenderNeutralHumanBeing], has turned out to be a lengthy explanation and confession of sorts. I did not intend this but spoke freely. I hope that the explanations and examples from my life might help some in their quest for God’s truth and the rich fulfillment He alone brings.
GNHB- Thank you for posting here, I mean it. I assume you are one of my brothers at KCC. I would like to touch on one idea you talked about that affects both of us. If the following does not apply to you, please disregard. A lot of the following applies to me and perhaps to others. You said, “Alright! They lied! (leaders) Are you happy?” They lie, you lie, we all lie; what’s a person to do. A witch hunt? No. Deal with it. Cope, its part of your life, its part of my life. Do I have your sentiments correct? Yet, you state in your earlier post that you are angry for how all the lies here are affecting your friends. I would be angry too. You are upset about these lies here, however not so much about leadership’s? (If they have). There is a clear contrast that you seem to accept in your treatment of individuals. You are very upset at one group of liars but you are not of another. You seem to give your leaders a pass. It is not about the lie per say, but what you do in response to it, more specifically, what you believe about them. I would like to suggest that you believe that leadership is somehow fundamentally different and they deserve different treatment. You may also believe that it is not yours or the church’s responsibility to hold them accountable. We all understand that when we lie there are consequences and we also recognize that when leadership participates in lies the consequences are magnified. So if you do believe that leadership should be treated differently, the difference is greater accountability not giving any sort of pass.
The culture of deferment to leaders is well entrenched. There are numerous examples of this. These examples are understood well from Irv’s post on Survivors, Kingsway#50. Thank you, Irv. I would like to use examples from my own life to help illustrate this and demonstrate a degenerating cycle that I have been part of and caught in. The cycle goes like this. First, a well positioned lie (that is I believe error).Second, cloaked idolatry (that is my actions support and convince me of the lie) Third, deception (that is by giving in to the lie in both belief and practice I cannot see the lie for what it is). As I have attempted to look with open eyes, study the word and ask God, a new awareness has come that has helped me see the fruit of this in my life.
I would like to interject here that we also have to be careful that we esteem men more by their actions of godliness and love than by their talk of it. A prime example of this is Bob’s actions toward the lost sheep (Steve W.) as compared to leadership’s actions. Please understand, this is not about condemning our leaders or leadership but about recognizing truth in word and deed and how it protects all of us in the body of Christ.
Okay the fact is, lies affect us all deeply. Lies are the very foundation of deception. Lying is not a small matter, for the moment we participate in this darkness, if we persist; we begin to lose our ability to see the truth. We may become deceived. Lies have affected me and they have affected you. I believe, you and I are in this very place because of lies. Deception is serious. When deceived, we no longer fear God but don’t even know it. I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment. While I wouldn’t state it this way, my heart was drawn to this reality, this love. Think about this. Think about our confidence in these things. I remember in the earlier days being enamored by our church and SG. To be honest, I was more interested in the inviting people to church then inviting them to Christ, sad I know. For a while KCC and SGM seemed to me to be a Christianized sociological masterpiece of 30 something friendships. I loved it. I was far more interested and better at “love bombing” visitors then evangelism and discipleship. Why? Because this is what I wanted, this is what stimulated me, this is what I believed in, along with God of course. It was the belief (lie) that these things (leaders, church, and organization) will meet my needs for fulfillment that caused the worship of them. So, I took these otherwise very good things and in my belief (lie) looked to them, submitted to them and worshipped them synonymous with God. By believing this lie I grew in my own deception. While these thoughts were all supported by half truths, I became a religious idolater. As I lost my ability to discern, I got caught in this vicious cycle. As long as I accepted the lie, Satan the father of lies, had a place to work in my life. Having believed that I needed these things for my meaning and fulfillment, I also believed that I must protect them, guard them and defend them because in large part, this is where I believed life was found. I remember not too long ago how personally offended and callous I felt toward people who dared to leave our church. Very noteworthy was my lack of love and judgmental thoughts toward a brother or sister for deciding to worship elsewhere. I took this somewhat personally, they rejected what I loved. I struggled with this. This was some of the fruit of my religious idolatry. It saddens me today to think about this. I have always thought of myself as more independent and believed that I was not so deeply affected however I was deceived. I write this because this may be affecting you as well. I wish I were totally free of these effects however as I have recently discovered, I am not.
What we see in this simple illustration is how Christ and his love were obscured by “this whole church thing”. My love and adoration of leaders, church, and organization contended for the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ. In Exodus 34:14, God’s name is jealous. God is a jealous God. He is jealous for his glory. He is jealous for us to love and obey him not only because it brings him glory but it also brings us good. He purifies us out of his love for us, even the very best of things that interfere with his receiving all glory. In my opinion, this is exactly what is going on at KCC and SGM. Because of his great love, he is purifying his bride.
I would not have believed that I put leaders, church, or organization before Christ, his Word or the Holy Spirit. I simply believed these things were part of my love for God. What challenged this was an awareness of the degree to which I desired, preferred, depended and acted on these things instead of God’s Word and his Spirit. By God’s grace this became very clear to me the other day.
I have a real burden for our church. I knew of a significant meeting last Friday a week ago with the CGLs and the pastors. Believing that what is unseen (spiritual) is more an essence of reality (eternal) then the seen, I knew that and unseen battle for truth would take place. Prayer, a primary weapon of our warfare would be needed. I believed that members should gather at the church to stand in the gap and pray while the meeting was taking place. Yet, I had a check to that thought and leading. Unsure of how this meeting would be received by leadership, I called my CGL. He was concerned as well and suggested I call people to pray. I sent out an e-mail through a friend instead. I believe many people prayed fervently and God answered. What could be missed here and what should not be missed was my deferment to what (I believed) my leaders wishes were over what I believed God’s wishes were. Whether my leaders would have liked this or not is not the real issue. I made following man more important than following God. In this brief interaction, I woke up to the depths of deception that I still had accepted in my own heart. Could it be possible that I neglected prayer, corporate prayer and obedience to God because I had willingly accepted the fear of man in the name of submission? I know the truth. It is idolatry to fear man more than God. We have fancy ways to justify it all, but thanks be to God for his revelation and repentance. God is a jealous God. He will not give his glory to another, be it leaders, a church or an organization. He will purify his bride, which is all of us, for our good.
With regards to quarrels, dissensions, and fractions of which we are all concerned at KCC, we must realize that these occur because of conflicting beliefs as to where life is really found. If we believe, consciously or unconsciously that leadership, church, or an organization has made our living significant, than when this is threatened we seek to preserve and defend it or else we lose life. As David Neeham has said, “… a goal (in this case, optimal church) can easily become THE goal and as such it becomes the measurement of where life or meaning is to be found. It then becomes an idol-a very fragile idol at that. As an idol, they cannot help but cast a shadow on the priority of God-his joy, his sufficiency, his glory”. My concern is that as long as idolatry and deception of this kind remains, darkness remains. Our only hope for true unity is found in the complete emptying of ourselves to obey Christ and see Christ as our all in all. His Spirit will lead us and Word will guide us. Our faith and confidence is in God alone.
I’m sorry for extending this post, but I must exhort my brothers and sisters at KCC to obeying God’s word and pray. With that said, the words to this song,” How He Loves” by David Cowder are awesome.
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realize just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all
Yeah, He loves us,
Oh! how He loves us
MB said:
“The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment”.
I can identify with that. Thank you for putting into words what I could not. The first time our church went to Celebration(actually I should say the ones that were “in the know”), I was amazed at the slickness with which Celebration was run. I will always be impressed with how well organized it was. Our church wasn’t yet adopted. I felt like I had “arrived”. This was doing church right. I am also ashamed to say that I felt superior when looking at my friend’s church that couldn’t hold a candle to the talent and superior quality of the conference. I did however make this observation of CJ (I’d never seen or heard him before) that he was a control freak. That was the first thing out of my mouth to my husband. But that didn’t stop me from continuing to feel that I was going to be in the “perfect church organization soon. Little did I know that 5 years later, I would be broken and confused. I would feel “guilty and depressed” when we would drive up on Sunday . I would be nervous to shake the Senior pastor’s hand as we walked in. I felt that I wasn’t measuring up to the expectations that had been mandated there. I had been worshiping the men, the music and the whole deal. I had definitely stopped worshiping my Savior. I could not see this. I’d see all the plastic smiles and try to convince myself they were genuine. So here I sit at my laptop still reeling from the experience. My family is trying to pick up the pieces but it’s not going to be easy. I guess the thought that runs around in my head is “How could we have been so blind?” I’m so grateful for this site and and Survivors.
Pam:
Outstanding comment at August 30, 2010 at 7:27 am, and I share many of those sentiments. When the Dame and I read MB’s comment (now a post), I thought, he’s read our mail on so many of these things. We’ve shed some tears over this one.
There’s too many casualties from SGM, and I am tired of being told that I and others on this blog are simply pulling the victim card repeatedly. Newly bloodied sheep show up all the time, and I think dear Lord, in your mercy, when will it ever end.
And then I remember something that helps me tremendously throughout these days: God mercifully tears down idols. I have to pray for the grace and strength for PD and I to recover from where the hooks of those idols tore into our spirits. You reach a point of just needing healing, moreso than any struggle with vengeance or revenge (don’t get me wrong, SGM does need to be accountable for for their wastelands, but I think you know what I mean). God used MB’s post for me to start healing, and I’m grateful for that.
Thank you for the compliment on the ‘fuge and also Survivors. God uses these places for me too, and I am grateful for all of you.
–pk
MB
You have described and ‘unveiled’ the roots of idolatry in sgm. I would that this
page could be sent to every sgm member — it is the articulate cry for the Brethren to SEE.
The pride came in to me, that as a part of sgm, we were THE New Testament church. I look back on many instances when I submitted to church/man rather than the promptings/warnings/guidance of Holy Spirit. What a subliminal
and stealth deceit the enemy has worked within the church— and all to take captive those who truly love the Lord and desire to serve Him. And glory to His Name — He loves us— He pursues us — He awakens us —He gives us courage to See… and then to fight for the remainder of the captives….
This quote is revelatory: ‘David Needham has said: “…..a goal (in this case,
optimal church) can easily become THE goal and as such it becomes the measurement of where life or meaning is to be found. It then becomes an IDOL
—a very fragile idol at that. As an idol, they cannot help but cast a SHADOW
on the PRIORITY OF GOD —HIS Joy, HIS sufficiency, HIS Glory.”
MB and you who are standing in the gap at KingsWay— your fight, your battle, your lions heart for Gods people…Gods Truth…..you are causing His Light to dispell darkness and strongholds in SIGNIFICANT ways. So true– the Lord is God
and He is purifying and cleansing His own – the spotlight is at KingsWay.
I pray your men will not be like the majority of those at Chesapeake— who chose to remain asleep when God brought truth to Light. A neutral stand is a submitted stand – and the enemy then comes in in a more insidious, hidden manner.
Very dangerous. We keep praying…………
Thanks, PK. I also don’t want revenge, I want true repentance and restoration.
P.S., MB— I need to say— after initially reading your post a few days ago, I felt the giant sob in my spirit and in all of my being—and the need to just weep….
PK and PD… your words: “…… we need strength to recover from where the hooks of those idols tore into our spirits.” As do we……….. We came through huge
hurdles by Gods Hands – and now there is “residue” to identify—
and seek healing and restoration…
MB,
I’m still reeling (in a good way) from this beautiful, articulate confession of your heart and giving God the glory for opening your eyes. I have poured over your words here several times, and I’m seeing my reflection in your confession. It stings, but it is cleansing at the same time.
A few of your more noteable quotes:
I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment.
Yes, yes, that was me, too. When we look to anyone or anything but Christ to fulfill us, the results are tragic. The slow, subtle slide of our affections from Him to these other things is almost undetectable.
It was the belief (lie) that these things (leaders, church, and organization) will meet my needs for fulfillment that caused the worship of them. So, I took these otherwise very good things and in my belief (lie) looked to them, submitted to them and worshipped them synonymous with God. By believing this lie I grew in my own deception. While these thoughts were all supported by half truths, I became a religious idolater.
Growing in our own deception, we become religious idolaters. This was hard to read, to realize this was me also. It is not wrong to look to godly men as our example. I have been around other believers who impressed me, (and who I then ultimately wanted to impress). And then I have been around believers who made me hunger for God more, for His presence more. May we all, leaders and sheep alike, strive to be this manner of brother/sister.
I remember not too long ago how personally offended and callous I felt toward people who dared to leave our church. Very noteworthy was my lack of love and judgmental thoughts toward a brother or sister for deciding to worship elsewhere. I took this somewhat personally, they rejected what I loved. I struggled with this. This was some of the fruit of my religious idolatry.
Once again, this was me. I was such an SGM snob. May God forgive me.
My love and adoration of leaders, church, and organization contended for the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ.
Bingo. There it is, in plain English. Ouch.
I would not have believed that I put leaders, church, or organization before Christ, his Word or the Holy Spirit. I simply believed these things were part of my love for God. What challenged this was an awareness of the degree to which I desired, preferred, depended and acted on these things instead of God’s Word and his Spirit.
Me neither. But then, at what point do we realize that our ears have become dull to the sound of His voice? Thank God for His grace, and His penetrating shaft of light piercing our darkness.
I made following man more important than following God … I woke up to the depths of deception that I still had accepted in my own heart. Could it be possible that I neglected prayer, corporate prayer and obedience to God because I had willingly accepted the fear of man in the name of submission? I know the truth. It is idolatry to fear man more than God.
I’ve heard the phrase “the fear of man” thrown around for quite awhile, but this statement made it very clear to me what it’s all about. Thank you, MB, for hearing from God and sharing this enlightening truth!
God bless you and continue to strengthen you, brother. You will be in our prayers!!
Protestant Dame
protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
Thanks MB and PD for your transparency.
This gives me reason to hope.
“I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment.”
MB,
Thank you for so carefully constructing what is at the very core of these issues we read about on the blogs. It still pains me to think what it took to have my eyes opened. I think it’s easy to grow in the impressive “culture” of all things SGM and fail to see that you are no longer following Jesus.
Just logging in to receive comments on this!
MB, & PD – this has been a major epiphany and revelation in my own mind. Ultimately sgm has set itself and its church life as a mistress and adulterer to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ which it says it promotes. How tragic.
This also offers an explanation as to why Defender got such a blank stare from a so-called pastor when he quoted our charge to Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God and its righteousness…not sin or what’s best for sgm. That verse and directive had truly been eclipsed by teaching, culture and practice.
Thank you so much for your wonderful honesty.
MB, if I might ask you what I have asked of so many, how does this deception fit in the mysterious lack of personal responsibility that so many “leaders” who aspired and were promoted to be superior to, or over others? How is it that this deception fits into the reality that NO pastors, leaders, etc. that I know of, have spoken of seeking the conviction and clarity of the Holy Spirit to go and seek out others whom they have hurt, or injured or lorded over in any way?
How is it that leaving your offering at the altar and going to another whom you have hurt (Matthew 5) is not practiced on a personal level?
MB – this is not rhetorical but I’m asking God to help all the leaders – past and present – to speak to them, for the sake of healing all the way around, but also looking for clarity or understanding in my own mind.
God bless you and keep you.
~D
To all, thank you for your encouragement. Lest anyone think that my comments are discouraging or that they create a heavy heart, they do not in me and I hope not in you. We are free in Christ! I do not want to take any burden except that which is Christ’s’ burden. In Matt.11:25-30, Jesus has hidden things from the” wise and understanding” but has instead “revealed them to little children”. (Oh, I want to be a little child.) He goes on to say everything, that is“all things” has been given to Jesus. Jesus is all we need. When we go to him without agendas, plans and purposes of our own making and to him alone, “our burden is light”. When we trust in God alone we are at rest. Praise God!
The work that God is doing in my heart and life and those of KCC and those of SGM (outside too) is nothing short of revolutionary; it is transformational. It is a work of His Spirit and it is freedom in Christ. How bound up so many of us have or had become. I am anxious to have all- “the hooks of those idols that tore into our spirits” removed no matter what the cost for the sake of knowing Christ more. There is ONLY ONE who saves us, frees us, fills us, holds us up and puts our feet on the rock. Aren’t the words to this Newsboys song awesome?
In The Hands of God
We have raised our hopes and our cities high
We have followed fragile dreams
But only One could take the measure of our goals
And we’ve stumbled over the trials of life
And we’ve wrestled the unseen
But only One can calm the storm inside our souls
In the hands of God we will fall
Rest for the restless, and the weary
Hope for the sinner
In the hands of God we stand tall
Hands that are mighty to deliver
Giving us freedom
When our strength gave way to the weight of guilt
‘Til we strained for every breath
Only One could lift our shame and make us well
And when all is finished and we face
The fearsome power of death
Only One has overcome the gates of hell
You’re amazing
You’re amazing, You are
And we praise You, Lord
For what Your hands have done
MB,
God is so awesome!
And, dude – check your email!
Thanks,
P.D.
*** A CALL TO PRAYER ***
Brethren and Refuge Readers,
I would like to call upon you all to fast and pray for all the brothers and leaders at Kingsway. I know many of you are already praying for this church.
There is a meeting scheduled tomorrow (Wed.)–perhaps the first of many–with the brothers who have posted here (and others who have not) and the pastors. I have no idea the particulars of what will be discussed, but I do know it will go “well beyond the matters with SW”; we’ll let them report on that later if they wish. This group of brothers will be representing multitudes of the flock at KW.
I would ask you pray all week (esp. tomorrow) and fast (even just one meal) if you feel so led for all these brothers. Pray for openness, honesty, transparency, humility, and for God’s Spirit to be present in a very tangible way in these meetings. God is on the move, and I’m feeling a great need to support these brothers in the spiritual realm.
Feel free to post your prayers on this thread, as well.
Thank all you warriors in advance for your spiritual battle!
P.D.
P. D. — thank you so000 much. What a service to the body of Christ. The details don’t have to be exact, all meetings going forward should be covered in concerted prayer. I will join with you and all the others. To God be the glory!
Defended– You are asking a very tough question that I do not have a ready answer for. I wish I did, for your sake.I can see how the post might raise this question in your mind, especially considering yours and others experiences. I will think about it. Perhaps someone has some insight that might help.
I don’t know if this helps, but here is a thought .Some of this has happened because the church has aloud it . The church agreed with and fed into the lie.The people were sincere and vulnerable, but we became co-dependent on each other , if you will. Aware or not, we supported the spiritual authority that gave them the license to exercise it over us . We gave them permission. With this license, validated by the church, the degenerating cycle goes unchecked and unchallenged. Lie,idolatry,deception, until truth is difficult to identify or agree with. We all become blinded.Confidence in their authority grew in this environment. Left to evaluate ones own short comings, their blindness simply keeps them from seeing it and no one else has the authority to challenge it.
Also, because every one sins, what matters most is that they intend to obey God and do good. If they don’t do good then they are sorry but not really guilty.They feel guilt most when they are aware of ill motives, but given the degenerating cycle, they may not be aware of that very often and yet they may actually believe that they are. So….. they are not really personally responsible, it is more like a mistake.
I hope this answers your question , at least in part. Please remember these are only my thought and could be completely wrong.
Defended, you commented:
“MB, if I might ask you what I have asked of so many, how does this deception fit in the mysterious lack of personal responsibility that so many “leaders” who aspired and were promoted to be superior to, or over others? How is it that this deception fits into the reality that NO pastors, leaders, etc. that I know of, have spoken of seeking the conviction and clarity of the Holy Spirit to go and seek out others whom they have hurt, or injured or lorded over in any way?”
Perhaps an answer is hidden below…
…I have erased my post. I cannot post my answer in fear of offending the L-rd. What is Boldness mixed with respect for spiritual authority? Shem and Japheth walked into the tent backwards to cover Noah.
Do not think I am not angry, not effected.
Once I witnessed a brother harshly scold a youngster with the father standing right there. What Arrogance to cross the father’s spiritual boundary of authority.
If one is arrogant, crossing boundaries means little. If one has all the answers why seek The Teacher? I pray God’s Will be done at KW. I pray the attitude of arrogance be loosed from the church, from everyone.
(…I mean seriously, how can you be as smart as me?) –I had to add humor, these words weigh on me so heavily and I am still so angry…the tears
PD— Thankyou for setting out the banner for prayer for KingsWay Meetings!
KingsWay: The place the Lord has chosen to raise up a band of “Gideons”
–you have answered the call.
The stronghold is parallel, both physicallyand spiritually: A regional ‘apostle’ resides there, one who operates under the authority of sgm. Doors have opened for spiritual strongholds which have opposed Holy Spirit. (Jesus declaration of Him in John 14:26, Amplified:
“The Comforter [Counselor, Helper,Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener,
Standby] the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My Name [in my
place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things.
And HE will cause you to recall– will remind you of, bring to your
remembrance,— everything I have told you.”
Thankyou, Lord for those whom you have moved by Your Hands, to engage
in warfare, not according to their own flesh; for the weapons of warfare
are not of the flesh but are divinely powerful for the overthrow and
destruction of strongholds: arguments and theories and reasonings and
every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the true knowledge
of God. (II Cor 10: 3-5)[ Amplified] Lord, let the entrance of Your Living
Word bring Light (PS 119: 129) into every area , for You reveal the deep
and hidden things; You know what lies in darkness, and Light dwells with
You. (Dan 2:22). We pray that Truth will be victorious over every supposition
put forward to explain something; that any dishonest scales will become
uncovered—–That you will strengthen Your own by the power of Your might,
and be glorified………………
Dude, thank you for your transparency.
I apologize that there isn’t a better place to post this, but does anyone have any thoughts about Josh’s sermon from Sunday? Seems relevant to many of the discussions here.
Dude– I feel your struggle. I mean only to encourage as I have been. Go to Dad, tell Him how you feel. Ask Him what ever you need and He will do it for you. Step by step,walk with Him, talk to Him and listen to Him. As you implied, he is our “Teacher” and also our Healer. Thanks for sharing yourself.
P.D. , Waters, others –we are all praying, Gods “will be done on earth as it is in heaven”. How we trust that God will be glorified by setting people free from striving so we may fall into the hands of God.
Lord, let the entrance of Your Living
Word bring Light (PS 119: 129) May it be so. Thanks Waters.
facedown, which Josh? Harris? or someone at KCC?
You have me curious now, would like to find it online.
Josh Harris @ CLC… sorry. It’s a sermon on pastors and the congregation. I think probably the biggest issue with the sermon is making sure that the pastors of SGM actually follow through, but I was curious to see what the response was here.
Here’s the link to Harris’ sermon:
http://www.covlife.org/resourc....._and_Sheep
–pk
Just finished listening to the sermon; while Harris makes some good points, they end up falling flat as the idealized version of pastors per 1 Peter 5:1-4 are not the norm in SGM. If they were, this blog would not exist, and history would look quite different than it does now.
He also makes an interesting leap in what commentators he is paying attention to in reference to the word “younger” in 1 Peter 5:5. I would also say that Peter’s focus on mutual submission (pastors, elders, younger with each other) is lost on the polity structure at SGM.
Harris also leaves an open door for those who believe the pastors at CLC are domineering to be able to talk to the pastoral staff about it. Nothing about a group talking with the pastors…the onus (and the assumption) is on you and you alone to vocalize the dispute…because (sarcasm begins here) how could a substantial group at an SGM church ever marshal itself anyway?
By and large, SGM has an allergy to being told they are wrong about anything, at any time…and if and when the admission of error comes, it is immediately taken off the table only to be replaced by the confronter’s so-called “sin” in questioning them in the first place. It’s a catch-22, no-win scenario, right down the line. The scenario that Harris lays out is not one of humility, but a king being honored that a little person would want to bend his ear.
Based on how 1 Peter 5 literally plays out, it has been the experience of MANY that the congregation is simply not in the vocabulary of Sovereign Grace Ministries, other than being a blunt, dumb and distracting instrument that God uses to sanctify the pastor. In Purswell’s address at one of the SGM sessions at T4G 2010, he even refers to “functional congregationalists” coming into the church. It came off to me like he was describing someone with the plague. So is a “functional congregationalist” going to have a productive discussion with a pastor who claims his office door is open? The door may be open, but don’t let it hit you in the tucus on the way out when you suggest that maybe that SGM pastor’s last bad decision should have been put to a vote.
What SGM simply does not get, to the point of being maddening, is that you can preach 1 Peter 5 all day and all night…it means nothing when a seemingly unrepentant leadership carries on with business as usual, and no specific, public, and denomination-wide admission of systemic ill practices (i.e., sin) is ever made.
We get the hand-wringing and sad eyes scattered about in the pulpits when they get caught, yet the source of this (learned) behavior is never addressed.
–pk
The elitist mentality is nauseous and disgusting — and obviously, the exact opposite of Christ. Isn’t Purswell the one who began tossing the term around in sgm that they (leaders) are the “first among equals”…and pastors “stand in the very stead of God” ??….And KB stated that Purswell was aiding him in writing the ‘new doctrine’ at Chesapeake declaring no Biblical grounds for separation in troubled marriages (including abuses). Thankyou, 3 Couples, for obeying God and uncovering and stopping that monster. [I will testify of this at every opportunity]
So……… Realistically, and experientially we see that sgm leaders not only see themselves as NOT accountable/transparent to lowly fellow Christians,—but in that mindset of elitism, they exercise spinning, manipulation and control.
(And they fully expect to be ‘obeyed’). The elitism virus is contagious and infectious — thus we witness the fields of wounded and discarded Brethren.
And yes, this is maddening, for as yet—sgm does not really believe they are
infected—and so, business as usual marches on…….
Therefore, when upheavals occur and/or groups of Brethren begin to awaken and see……… we trumpet the truth once again…and pray for more captives to be set free……..continuing to pull down strongholds which seek to come against the true
knowledge of God.
PK,
You hit a bullseye.
I know, firsthand, that the leadership is like Fonzie on the show Happy Days, they just can’t manage to say, “I was wrong.”
If the ones that wronged my family are reading this: big hint: I have already forgiven you but it would really feel good and validate me as a human being to have someone actually apologize for all that transpired.
I will have to listen to the message.
It wouldn’t surprise me if most of the leaders including Harris think they are approachable and listen to regular members issues etc when in fact they really aren’t. Thus they could think in their mind they are one way but in practice not be that.
One example is Gene Emerson. In his mind maybe he thought he was doing the right thing when in fact he withheld the truth at Kingsway Church that would have cleared a pastor who was forced down. One can think in their mind they are right but as SGM always likes to teach their is “indwelling sin” and the passage about the heart being “sick.”
It can be quite easy to be self deceived. Just another reason for a difference in polity where leaders have some type of accountability vs. one person having a lot of control. After all, SGM always like to claim they believe their pastors are “imperfect” or use that to excuse various pastors’ actions.
It’s telling that he asks for input from people if they believe the pastors are wrong and then cites an example where someone came to him in disagreement (afraid to approach though), but in his example nothing was mentioned about the pastors being wrong – just that they are open to being approached.
Josh can’t even come up with ONE example where he was correctly approached and found himself wrong? Seriously?
Josh clearly has a lofty view of pastors and specifically addresses the youth aspect of elders(pastors).
Think he’s ever read Frank Viola?
Well, I would consider Frank Viola a “functional congregationalist” so he’s probably not on the SGM approved book table…
P.K.- Thank you. So well said.
You need to be careful, your persuasive words of wisdom may cause some to think that you do not come in power( ref. Paul) but thankfully you do.
“Functional Congregationalists” I guess that is what is wrong, we are not functional enough. It seems to me, that God designed his body in such an interconnected way that if it is not functional it is in danger of dying. Aren’t true “Functional Congregationalists” just another way of describing a healthy, fully graced and gifted body of Christ in action? I think so.
Waters – I really appreciate the way you express yourself. Your heart comes through in your words.
Those at Kingsway and or other SGM churches that are undergoing turmoil, I would like to ask, what is the source of our discomfort?
A couple of days ago I asked a friend how he was doing. In his answer he said, this is a difficult time and people are upset. I understand a “difficult time”; it is much harder for me to understand” upset”, although I do. We are upset when we believe something is wrong.
So, what is wrong at KCC or SGM? For those who are upset at the real possibility of Christ being marginalized, the Word not followed and His Body anemic in love, faith and power (because of other loves).– I am with you. However, if one is upset because sin has been and or is being exposed and you are trying to protect and defend those involved, than that is another matter.
Tell me? If a man has nothing to hide before God, does he have something to hide before man? (I am not talking about confidentiality) With God as our judge, when all is emptied before our Father, what do we have to fear?
Repentance and transparency validate each other. One who is repentant is transparent and one who is transparent is repentant. (Or at least has the real opportunity for repentance) This is the significance of coming to the “light” as seen in John 3: 20, 21. In the body of Christ, can we really have one without the other? We can not and at the same time speak authentically. These things are needed; spiritual leadership requires this kind of integrity and humility.
I view being upset as the first response to the loss of something that brings me meaning and fulfillment. This response however, is tempered by my realization that God alone gives me meaning and fulfillment. When I realize this, it is likely that sorrow becomes a more pronounced emotion. This reminds me of the stages one goes through when finding out they have a disease; shock, disbelief, denial, bargaining, anger, sadness……
What if we didn’t deal with the disease and side stepped it, pushed it under the rug, minimized it, would we be better? The prospect of eradicating the disease seems so uncomfortable. Do we try to manage the disease instead? Would we be better off? We must face it; we must deal with it as uncomfortable as it may be. Why? Because there is hope that the only one great God, our Healer can and will make His Body well. We need not be upset.
I listened to Josh Harris’s message and he certainly SAID a lot of right things. I wonder if this was his subtle way of acknowledging things were right in this area and suggesting things are supposedly going to change? Harris did mention that some of these items had been a problem “in the church” in the past (didn’t say specifically if he meant CLC or the body of Christ in general). Harris also hesitated when stating about this being a problem in the past almost as is he regretted mentioning that.
Harris talked about various models (metaphors) he thought people wrongly thought that pastors should take on in the body of Christ including a role as “entertainer”, “corporate ceo”, kings where the king’s will and desires reign and the king is almost worshipped. Those roles sure sound like what I see C.J. Mahaney doing a lot especially the entertainer role and the “king” role. It is ironic that Harris taught that these roles aren’t correct when they seem to be the patter for SGM’s leader.
Harris did mention that he felt the only way for a church to survive is if people accept God’s pattern of humble leadership and humble followers. Maybe Gene Emerson should listen to this message. Maybe Emerson not following this pattern is what caused him to do what he did to SW.
Harris said a lot more of the RIGHT things. I may write more later. I do hope this is more than just saying the right things. I hope this means there is a recognition of the need for change at CLC and SGM and one sees action. If that is the case of recognizing a need for change, it is sad that Harris didn’t come out and admit this.
MB said:
So, what is wrong at KCC or SGM? For those who are upset at the real possibility of Christ being marginalized, the Word not followed and His Body anemic in love, faith and power (because of other loves).– I am with you. However, if one is upset because sin has been and or is being exposed and you are trying to protect and defend those involved, than that is another matter.
MB, you have a way of cutting through all the fluff and getting to the point. Keep pressing in, keeping standing together for the truth. To God’s glory.
P.D>
Echoing PD………..MB, your words do clearly get to the point……and the points are like a 1000 volts of light —— Ya’ll are fighting the good fight…
as PD encouraged: “Keep pressing in, keep standing together for the Truth.
To Gods Glory.”
Here is what bothers me.
KingsWay and its leaders are beholden to Sovereign Grace and what comes along with it. There have been some critical flaws in KingsWay that have come to us through SGM either directly or indirectly.
The most obvious has been the leadership structure or polity which has allowed the leaders to function in a bubble. We also have had to operate under various and changing understandings of the role and authority of Apostles. We are directly affected by the SGM Pastors College and the positioning of the leaders it produces as leaders into our body.
We, as a body, are particularly influenced by CJ and CLC due to Gene’s relationship to both. There are many things that have been done here because it was done that way up there. The most notable is the premature installation of a young leader as an “elder” as a copycat move to CJ’s promotion of Josh Harris and even a similar move by Dave Harvey.
We have been indirectly affected by Sovereign Grace attitudes that have brought about an arrogance over our theology or our missiology…that we are better than other churches in what we believe, the way we worship and how we do outreach.
My simple point is admittedly we are flawed, both as a church and as a movement, but if we are to be the church as God intended it to be, it cannot remain under the present leadership structure.
So we come to an impasse. Either the polity goes (and all that comes with it; i.e. our relationship with SGM and perhaps even the present leadership) or we go. Personally, it’s easier to just leave and leave the leadership to do what they can with what remains.
Quick correction for PK–Josh actually does mention bringing someone with you to talk to the pastor. I’ll post the time reference if it’s still up for dispute, as I’d need to find it. However, that particular point stood out to me.
Gotta run, but I’ll check back later.
“Harris talked about various models (metaphors) he thought people wrongly thought that pastors should take on in the body of Christ including a role as “entertainer”, “corporate ceo”, kings where the king’s will and desires reign and the king is almost worshipped. ”
In that case, I am a white, middle aged woman.
I am a WHITE, MIDDLE AGED WOMAN!
I AM A WHITE, MIDDLE AGED WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I said, I AM A
WHITE
MIDDLE-AGED
WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Treat me as such. Open doors and pull out chairs and let me go first when we are about to walk into each other. Or you are wrong and sinful and very, very bad and you clearly don’t understand God or who He is. And you certainly don’t understand God’s plan for you life.
Have you pulled out my chair today? Why thank you very much!
Have you held the door for me today? No? Well, I think you need to get into an accountability group and repent. God will heal you of your sin if only you humble yoruself and treat me as God wants you to. (Heaven knows if you don’t, you will not bring him glory.)
Have you let me go first when our paths crossed? If you need help with this, I will pray for you. Maybe you should go to meetings every single week and learn to trust me and fear that maybe I’ll do something bad to your entire family if you don’t.
I am a white, middle-aged woman.
People should not expect me to be white. They are silly and sinful and wrong to think that I am.
People are sinful and bad and wrong if they expect me to be middle-aged.
People are wrong if they think that I think they should pull out chairs for me. Or to be white. Or to be a woman. Or to be middle-aged. They are clearly off and not honoring to God if they act as if or expect me to be a white, middle-aged woman.
Silly people.
Foolish, foolish Josh.
Hi facedown:
No disputes here, I’m sure Josh OKs another person; by “no groups” I meant that in my experience no groups were allowed; yes, witnesses are allowed, but that eventually turns into “we need to meet separately to hear out each of your concerns discreetly.”
Thanks for pointing that out though, and apologies–sincerely–for me misrepresenting anything that was said.
–pk
Not Very Optimistic, Thankyou for your insights —You bring awareness for
the brevity of reality in regards to sgm polity and leadership structure.
We have witnessed:
The automatic replica of “how things are done” at CLC and CJM and the mandated
polity structure….have produced a horrific outcome of counsel without
discernment. And as “Dude” pointed out, “when one is arrogant, crossing boundaries means little.” Oh, the boundaries that have been crossed.
And so many at the expense of our young people. sgm pastors who have ‘led’
their people for many years should be seasoned in discerning the schemes of the enemy that would bring harm to any member of the flock…and in particular, young ones. However, discernment and crying out to God has been replaced by polity mandates—thus choking out the protection and redemptive process
Holy Spirit would readily lead in. I have seen too many women,children and teens placed in harms way because of arrogant non-discerning pastors. And ‘apostles’.
And ’apostles’. And ‘apostles’. This is a defiling characteristic of religous
mandated structure – and I believe, one of the reasons the Lord has seen fit to
bring sgm polity and its destructive leaders into the light of day. Dear Lord,
in the light of day, there is the opportunity to SEE….and to be spent in sorrow…and cry out to the Lord. ——
KingsWay band of Brothers— there are many layers to WHAT you are fighting the good fight of faith FOR ——– and I dare say, the young people are watching
—– they are our heritage, and the heritage of the Lord in the precarious days
we are living in.
I think I have ranted. PK if this is off topic, please erase.
Not Very Optimistic: Standing ovation. You’re batting a thousand.
Not Very Optimistic, MB, all the rest of you from that lovely area of VA, God bless you, keep you and protect you. YOU belong to HIM. Really and truly for God’s glory alone.
Sounds to me like Kingsway would be more healthy if they had a Gene-ectomy.
Or a removal of SGM altogether? Cuz one of MB’s examples of stuffing the problem or ignoring it reminds me of cancer in remission. The body (so to speak) is NOT healed but basically a ticking time bomb, thankful for the momentary peace or lack of cancer, but FULLY aware that the cancer can rear its ugly head at any time, any day, any moment. And then there ya go, back to fighting with or dealing with, or treating the cancer.
Not Very Optimistic says:
So we come to an impasse. Either the polity goes (and all that comes with it; i.e. our relationship with SGM and perhaps even the present leadership) or we go. Personally, it’s easier to just leave and leave the leadership to do what they can with what remains
.
Early on in this process, I remember asking a friend and leader, “who owns the church?” I wasn’t talking physically (although that is interesting and a window into the rest of my comments) but symbolically, even spiritually.
A lot of the people here and in the church are struggling because the answer, which was not given to me, is the church belongs to the leadership. After 20 years and maturing in age and God, I believed the church was mine—all of ours.But if one consider what it means to own something, it is clear (and I have been inform in many ways) that I am renter with no lease.
The landlord of the church will ask the tenants for input to keep the peace but in no way give up ownership.They have torn out a page or two of the contract, held it up to the most vocal and say,” See, we have the right, we have the authority. We have been appointed, we must answer the call, we are responsible for ruling over you.Go back to your apartments and be good little tenants, Oh and by the way its time to pay the rent.”
I don’t say this mockingly or sarcastically but very mournfully because it is not true. I and many others have lacked the knowledge , insight and will to confront the owners and say,”let me see that contract, Wait a minute ! You are not our owners! We are the owners and there is another who has given us the money for it, we own it together with Him!”
Friends do not leave out of frustration or dis spare(i understand if you do), we own the church, we are Christs body!
Not Very–Great comments, thank you. I’m close to many at KW. What kind of “outreach” do you see SGM taking pride in? Many of my dear students believe that SGM leads the way in world evangelization.
I always have to be careful not to be drinking my Diet Coke when engaged in a missions discussion with them. Don’t want any unexpected spewing to occur.
It is the least missions-oriented church I’ve ever encountered. Ever. Just astonishing. I’ve ever been lectured to by SGMers that there is no reason to send English speaking missionaries around the world, since they NEVER produce fruit. Really? One of the dumbest statements I’ve heard. Are there many ways to reach the lost? Yup. But to reject all foreign missions (except the one in Mexico…for another time).
Second thought: how can someone be an apostle one day, and not an apostle the next? My students tell me that Gene is no longer an apostle.
Was he ever? I ask.
Uhhh, no, they reply.
Why was he on the APOSTOLIC team?
Uh, um, huh, well, could you help me with this quadratic equation?
Poor guys. They are being taught that words mean nothing. Change the name of your denomination three times? no problem. The name of your church every decade. Sure. The title of your leaders? Sure, why not.
If there are still apostles being called by God, you better WATCH OUT when you give them a new nametag for their door. Dangerous territory there, my friends.
Not Very Op: I was going to quote a few of your more notable statements and in the end I would just end up reposting your entire comment. Wow. I’m joining in the standing ovation for your remarks. Oh I can’t help myself. Here’s one of many good NVO quotes: “So we come to an impasse. Either the polity goes (and all that comes with it; i.e. our relationship with SGM and perhaps even the present leadership) or we go.”
And then MB likening the current SGM church structure to a landlord / tenant relationship. “But if one considers what it means to own something, it is clear (and I have been informed in many ways) that I am renter with no lease.” Oh my gosh. A big ah-ha moment here.
If only our little church here in our city would throw off the shackles of the great SGM machine (landlord), we would be back there in a heartbeat.
And Waters, please feel free to “rant” here anytime. You, too, Stunned. Defended: “Gene-ectomy” – you crack me up
RT – you rock as always. Our new little church has an abundance of missionary types. Some active, some “retired.” (if you can ever retire from missions work). Just spending 15 minutes with people like this is so refreshing and inspiring. They are real. They know whom they have believed (2 Timothy 1:12) They have a view of ministry that reaches far beyond the next church ice-cream social.
P.D.
Well, PD, we are supposed to have two sets of genes which makes us diploid.
Having three genes at any locus is a baaaaaaadddddd thing (triplody works for some plants but is generally not good for people.)
Therefore, I wholeheartedly give my approval to the “Gene-ectomy.”
Enough nerd humor
Thanks for the encouragement.
So here we are. We have been shown some ugly stuff that happened in the past at KingsWay. We are shocked, confused, angry…you name it. Some people feel Gene should step down just over the SW events of the last ten years. Some people want to just forget about it and move on. Some people want to take back the church and have the entire leadership team step down because most of them were put there by Gene, and the others, by SGM. Some people want to break off our relationship with SGM, too. Some have already left, others are about to leave and still others may be told “Well, bro, maybe KingsWay isn’t the place for you?” Many are in a “wait and see” holding pattern, being encouraged to stick it out and unify as the church body as our friend, Bob, recently encouraged the church body to do.
You see, I am not on here to dump on the church or its leaders. I will not shy from pointing out what I see as the way that the leadership has strayed from Biblical principles in regard to the way they lead or from the way we have allowed ourselves to be led (or even led astray.) Many of us or our children have been hurt by our local Sovereign Grace Church or its leaders or by screwy legalistic trends over the years and we see nothing keeping it all in check. Many of the saints at KingsWay such as MB, and Mike D and Bob D and others are determined to flesh this thing out and see true Biblical, God glorifying change take place. Due to their perseverance we might be able to look back in ten or twenty years and say “remember how messed up Sovereign Grace was? It is hard to believe God was able to turn it all around.” Or will the conversation be “remember how messed up Sovereign Grace was? God really removed His hand from that ministry. I wonder where everybody ended up? Is such-and-such still walking with the Lord?” It is scary and sobering.
NVO:
I want you to know that PD nd I are praying hard for your church, and praying hard for you soldiers of Christ. Stand firm in your faith and convictions; continue to let God’s word capture your conscience, no matter what.
I am praying those days of hurt–days eaten by the locusts–will be replaced full to overflowing with God’s grace and beauty for all of you!
Be strong and courageous…
–PK
I am completely new to this, but read MB’s burden yesterday, so here goes….I have a question for Waters: You say,” I have seen too many women,children and teens placed in harms way because of arrogant non-discerning pastors. And ‘apostles’.” My question is, “how have the women, children and teens been placed in harms way?’ What specifically are you talking about?
Welcome CB!
–pk
CB–welcome. You’ll have to climb through the site, looking for Defended’s story as well as the mess at Chesapeake. Plus Stunned…wait a minute, there are a ton of stories to read here. Dive in.
DB – I knew I liked you!
NVO,
You Rock!
So, Take the church back and let SGM cry like babies.
If they threat a law suit, I’d say “BRING IT! I APPEAL TO CESAR!”
Get a good lawyer, have the FBI do a little investigation, and report EVERYTHNG on CNN every 20 minutes, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The media is longing for something “juicy” to report. I think we have one to deliver.
SGM has played “dirty” with the Bride just about long enough.
Psalm 64:
1 ¶ (For the choir director. A Psalm of David.) Hear my voice, O God, in my complaint; Preserve my life from dread of the enemy.
2 Hide me from the secret counsel of evildoers, From the tumult of those who do iniquity,
3 Who have sharpened their tongue like a sword. They aimed bitter speech as their arrow,
4 To shoot from concealment at the blameless; Suddenly they shoot at him, and do not fear.
5 They hold fast to themselves an evil purpose; They talk of laying snares secretly; They say, “Who can see them?”
6 They devise injustices, saying, “We are ready with a well-conceived plot”; For the inward thought and the heart of a man are deep.
7 ¶ But God will shoot at them with an arrow; Suddenly they will be wounded.
8 So they will make him stumble; Their own tongue is against them; All who see them will shake the head.
9 Then all men will fear, And will declare the work of God, And will consider what He has done.
10 The righteous man will be glad in the LORD, and will take refuge in Him; And all the upright in heart will glory.
PK, If this is inappropriate, blow it away. I’m just venting here, and I’m in a kind of “take no prisoners” mood right now.
Defender
Just bumping because cb asked a question and I’d like for him/her to get an answer to his/her question if someone is willing to do so. CB, please understand that if you don’t receive an answer right now, the truth of what happened to many is a bit too painful to discuss at times.
Anyone willing to give it a try or to make a link to Esther’s story or Noel’s story or to the many, many others here?
Just bumping this up because CB asked a question and I wanted to give someone a chance to answer him/her.
Anyone willing to give it a shot?
I’m copy/pasting from way back on the KkingsWay thread;
****************************************************
Protestant Knight says:
September 5, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Here’s two links re: Esther…
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/2…..j-mahaney/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/1…..hesapeake/
I found both of these by clicking on the “testimonies” tab at the top of the page, then paging through the posts by clicking on the “<< Older Comments” green text just above the “Leave a Reply” text.
–pk
*************************************
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM says:
September 5, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Noel’s story>
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276
May already been answered by now, but Electrons are cheap these days.
Enjoy!
“May already been answered by now, but Electrons are cheap these days.”
Every single electron has a charge, actually.
But you’re more than right, since they carry a negative charge, you can think of it as a negative *charge* or a refund, enough nerd humor.
PS. PK, I wrote the above before I finished your post (what? me interupt?) and now I feel badly that I responded so lightly. I had no idea there was so much havoc for you behind the scenes. This person is lonely. And troubled. Is there anything I can do to help you in this time? Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your running of this board in the midst of all your physical pain and schooling, as well.
Keep up the good work, brother.
BTW, is there anyway you would please let us know which vicinity/state this person is working from? I am beginning to contact people on the board about possibly meeting them face to face in their homestates in order to learn more about their personal stories. I would really hate to be duped into going to a meeting with this person. Very scary indeed, actually.
PPS. While I am at it, maybe I could just float this now. Over the past while the Lord has been working on me to get me to be willing to trust Him with my life. (I’m sure a day to day project til I get to meet Him in the great beyond.) Part of that is that I am finally willing to say “uncle!” and obey Him regarding the direction I believe He wants my life to take for now. And for now, that direction is going to meet people who have had experiences in authoritarian churches. People who are willing to meet with me, share their stories with me. I would keep everything as confidential as the people who are brave enough to tell me their stories would want.
I can’t say for sure what God’s goal in all of this will be, but I suspect He wants me to use my communication skills to tell their stories in either a book or documentary form. (Can’t believe my knees aren’t knocking as I write this “out loud” for the public to hear for the first time.)
I suspect many people or some organizations will attack me personally, slander me (slander as in the real definition and not some made up definition) or even try to sue me. But I am tired of running from God on this one. I’d rather be at odds with the whole world if need be, than the creator of it all.
So if anyone would want to please pray about whether God would have you be part of this project, I’d appreciate it. And please, don’t feel as if your story is not important because it wasn’t as explosive as Noel’s or Esther’s, please know that every story, including YOURS is important. It represents not only you (which in and of itself is important to God) but it also represents what could happen to others if they find themselves in an authoritarian church, SGM or not.
If you’d like to contact me, you can reach me at notaloneanymore1 at g mail dot com. I will get back to you unless some troll shows to do damage to my inbox.
God bless,
Stunned
Those of you that know me, know that I am a Patriot at heart. At this time in my 58 years of life, this has evolved into the time that I can most identify with our Founding Fathers. Please just begin to read our Declaration of Independence and you will see exactly what I mean. This will also serve each of us in the direction we should go. I firmly believe that this is God inspired!
http://www.constitution.org/usdeclar.htm
I plead with you to stay in the fight. “If He is for us, who can be against us”.
Mike, I think more of us are with you than you might realize.
Our founding fathers built something that was (is) based on the Word of God.
Founding documents are useful even in this SGM/KW situation.
Thank you brother.
Stunned:
Thank you!
–pk
cb,
I would to attempt to answer your question to the statement I wrote
(“undiscerning pastors and apostles have caused women, teens, and
children to be in harms way”)–Though discretion is a must. Obviously,
anyone who has been wounded in any way, especially the ‘weakest’, need protection and only they may decide to relay their own story.
We were a part of sgm for 19 years. We know many many people in sgm and in several states and several chuches. We watched children grow up— and young men of friends and extended family members become pastors. As time has passed, and our own ‘story’ occured (it is not in print–its too
horriffic and children need to be protected)…our eyes became open—as in stepping out of a fog and into bright daylight…. to the grievous reality that
SGM leadership, for the most part, no longer walked by the spirit—but by the dictates and rote mandates of ‘doctrines’ which enables them to wield control of the Brethren—spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. The boundaries they have crossed— which we personally know and have witnessed which have caused
women, teens and children to be harmed :
– I have erased the list…….just cannot write them out.
For now, suffice to say— the deeds have been reported up to the Gburg-hill…
and perhaps, the dark ‘counsel’ done by pastors and apostles is part of the reason God has raised up a band of warriors to fight for the integriy of Gods Word and the value of His redeemed within KingsWay.
I pray you repent, sgm leadership– lest you who trumpet yourselves as “standing in the very stead of God” and “the 1st among equals” find your deeds exposed
“in the light of day”….or in “Gath.”