At over 670 comments, “Your Story 1″ is now closed to comments. You can read it here.
This thread, “Your Story 2,” is a continuation, and is for you.
Posters-there are no rules. Change the name you normally use if you like. Say whatever you like with no fear of judgment or correction. Say what you want, in any way that you choose. This is our own little no spin zone.
For those who choose to reply to posts, let love rule. No correction allowed here. If you must puke your venom at someone, jump over here and address me. I won’t delete it, so the whole world will be able to behold it’s glory forever. OK, that was over the top. Actually a few thousand people a day for as long as this blog remains.
If we see a hint of “get over it”, or “it’s your fault” in this category, we’ll delete your comment. In Christian love, of course.
Posters, remember what the great theologian William Wallace (played by Mel Gibson) said.
FREEDOM!
Needin’ Hope,
Thanks for encouraging everyone here. I hope you have a wonderful experience as you visit a new fellowship tomorrow. Let us know how it goes!
Thank you, needin hope, acme, and Ellie. I haven’t been back for a couple of weeks. I didn’t realize the page wasn’t working and I admit, I felt like my story didn’t matter.
acme, I am so sorry for what happened with Dorsey. Our family was quite close with them as well (there can only be one Dorsey!), and they dropped us as soon as the leadership told them, too. It was especially hard, because our boys were best friends and they didn’t even get to say goodbye. My son is 18 and losing that friendship and the fellowship we had with their family still causes him pain. He hasn’t had a best friend since.
I just reread your story and I am glad you finally got out, both for you and your children. We never quite fit the PDI/SGM mold either, but I kept drinking the kool-aid, too, thinking it was my own rebellion and stubborness.
Hello Storm-Tossed,
I, too, am just now reading your story and my heart is breaking for you. Please stick around and interact with the saints here. How I wish we could all just come over and hang out in your living room.
There is life and healing for you in the arms of Jesus. He delights in fixing broken hearts, warming cold hearts and resurrecting dead hearts.
With hugs & prayers,
P.D.
Storm-Tossed, your story DEFINITELY matters. I’m sorry you got caught up in a dead zone like that–aah, the mysteries of the blogosphere. I’m even sorrier that that particular family dumped you–my estranged husband brought them into CLC, they were involved in our wedding, and I so loved getting caught up with them when they came back to Gaithersburg–I thought they were different, too cool to be caught in the kool-aid trap.
My 17-year-old son wants nothing to do with any church right now–and I am not ready to give a church my heart again. My daughter goes back and forth, now that her daddy is back at CLC.
Stormed Tossed, I’m so sorry you felt overlooked. Several of us answered you on the Kingsway forum because the My Story wouldn’t let us on. Go have a look. We are so glad you found us and can get support. Welcome!
Thank you P.D., acme and Canary.
Acme, I understand what you are saying. We thought they would stand by us for sure, since they were so different and seemed to think for themselves. I guess only on specific topics!
I tried to find your responses on the Kingsway Way thread, but didn;t see anything. Is that the right place?
Needin Hope, Storm Tossed, welcome and please visit as often as you like.
and say hello when you’re reading too!
Needing Hope – you are so sweet! Thanks for reading our story:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....er=desktop
It was a privilege and a joy from God Himself for us to try to serve Him in starting a new church. We were naive in thinking that lifting up Jesus was the goal of all who came with us to build that local church congregation. And we know beyond all doubt that the Lord’s ultimate plan was to move us here, and He can use us however He directs in our community and among His people. I’m very committed to ecumenical or inter-mural Christian fellowship! That is, I love ministries like CBS 0r Community Bible Study because it’s not about our denomination or where or how we worship the Lord, but that we are in HIS WORD!
Dear, dear StormTossed,
Your story matters greatly. From the day I saw that you had posted on “Your Story” but we couldn’t get in to read it, I’ve been worrying that you have felt rejection by us all here. The very place you came to find a bit of support. I’m so sorry you suffered in the interim but glad the problem has been fixed.
Though, I have to say, it was rather painful to read your story, to see the pain you and your family has gone through. I rejoice that God is big enough to put your lives back together but hurt, knowing that you have suffered and that you are still. I understand the fear of losing your husband. I lived in that fear daily for 22 years. Sometimes he was a Christian, but for the most part, he wasn’t. (Actually, he’s the only person I know who got born again and again and again.
)
I know you’re not asking for advice. And I know I have NO idea what your life or your husband’s life is like. And if you don’t want some complete stranger to give you what is probably a bit of off the wall advise, go ahead and skip the rest of this paragraph. (I used to tell my kids that it doesn’t bless anyone to give them advice they haven’t asked for, so we can already see that I don’t even heed my own counsel!) But all that said… gosh, I hope I’m not out of line here… (treading lightly so feel free to skip the rest of this), but I can’t help but wonder if your husband is in a place of… how do I say this?… if he is in a place of searching, as so many of us are. I wonder if it’s a case of him needing your love and support and care. I could be way off here, but I have a feeling that God is taking him through the journey that he needs to go through. I know it doesn’t look like the journey you or I had, but I think God is at work. (This is not one of these blanket “God is at work” statements. I feel this very strongly and very specifically for your husband at this time.) I also hate it when people pull out the “just love him and he’ll change” crud. (Let’s face it, sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t.) But I’m feeling very strongly, again, that he is in a place of needing your support and love. I don’t think you should fear. I think God wants you to know that he has you and your kids in the palm of His hand. (Said the woman whose kids would NOT darken a church doorway and whose own son has not spoken to her in years.) So again, I do not say this lightly, nor do I simply “apply” this encouragement to everyone. I really think God wants you to rest in Him. Know that He is going to take care of you. No matter what. You are going to be OK. Your husband is on a journey, whether we understand it or not. In fact, I believe it’s a journey that he MUST be on to get him where God wants him. (Did you ever read any of the Chronicles of Narnia? Where the main characters often wound up going on journeys that seemed to take them far from where they were supposed to go? That seemed so dangerous or pointless or bad? But they needed the journeys in order to change them, or heal them, or make them strong.) I think that is where God has your husband. It is God’s work to take him where God wants him. We have no idea what your husband is going through, but unless he’s a jerk to you (which is a different matter and if that’s the case then I’d be happy to join you in a beat down
)… but we have no idea what he’s going through, then please ask God if you are supposed to be simply loving him and supporting him through this journey. Don’t worry. Your support and love won’t drive him further away from God. Somehow, I think God will use it.
I’m so happy that you have come back to the one who loves you more than we could hope or imagine. Welcome back and welcome home. (I tried to rebel against God back in ’04. I stink at it- but am still an awesome sinner.)
I’m far away from home right now so may not be around for any response. But I will try to get to a connection sometime this week. Again, I’m so sorry we didn’t respond to you sooner.
God bless you. You are so precious to Him. I beleive you brought Him great joy when you turned back to Him. I believe He has been aching to comfort you.
I was at a PCA church that was more Calvinist than neo-Calvinist, so my story is not quite as severe as some others on this site. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist church, but started harboring doubts about Christianity in my university years getting a PhD. in the biological sciences. I remained a Christian, but the doubts always persisted. After having a children we found a PCA church that really appealed to us due to its more intellectual nature and stark differences with the Baptist churches (no emphasis on conversion experiences and alter calls, no yelling at the pulpit, seemingly less legalism, and allowing me the freedom believe in evolution). At first, I was really excited about Christianity and had high hopes for resolving some of the doubts. I read CS Lewis. I thought I could be comfortable sharing my doubts. But as time went on, and I learned more and more about Calvinism, I realized I just didn’t fit in and the theory of limited atonement caused me much grief, as I was starting to become convinced that all my intellectual doubt was a reflection that I was unelect. While just the thought of being un-elect would make anyone depressed, I started to feel unworthy as a parent since we opted against spanking and decided to use public schools, but there was a strong push at our old church to espouse spanking and opt against public schools. I started to question who exactly was guiding my decisions if they were so different from everyone else. Needless to say, we had to leave our church a year ago, but I never realized the hurt that would follow. Like others, we too lost all our friendships. My doubt was so severe (and often still is) that I thought I would become an atheist in no time, and there was seemingly nothing I could do to stop the trajectory of my thoughts, as much as I tried to read apologetics to counter my questions. In the midst of this doubt, I had no one to rely on, and that was just downright depressing – to spend 3 years with all these people and then never see anyone again. My intellectual doubts about Christianity were accompanied by emotional doubts due to the lack of evidence of Christ in Christians themselves due to their lack of love and grace.
This is my story in a nutshell. Thankfully I wasn’t at a SGM because I don’t think I would have been as strong as you all, but I think you might relate to elements of my story – and my feelings of sadness, loneliness, despair, and unworthiness as a mom. There were (and still are) times when I look at my children and feel sad that I am their crazy mom.
like a child, My heart goes out to you and I pray that you have a powerful encounter with Jesus; that all your doubts are washed away as He puts His loving arms around you and speaks His truth over you. Sadly, we have all been lied too and these lies seem to be true but they are from the enemy of God and they are lies!! These lies are meant to kill, steal, and destroy us. This false Christianity that is all about religion and rules, brings death not life to the soul, certainly steals the abundant life that Jesus Himself promises for us. I for one say throw out the theological books and all that you have ever read or thought about election. Just spend time with Jesus and as He leads you spend time in His Word, maybe starting in the Psalms or wherever Holy Spirit leads you. He will come and minister to your broken heart. Give Him all your pain and hurt, give Him all of your loneliness and sadness! He will restore what the locusts have devoured in your life!! Wish I could just come over and give you a big hug!!{{{{{{}}}}}}}} Hugs to you from here!
As far as the friends that you have lost, believe me I know exactly what you are talking about. Those folks are deceived and they are not walking with the real Jesus nor walking out real Christianity. It is a form of religion but it is not the real thingand it is void of LOVE. Jesus is real and He LOVES you more than you can imagine. He is alive and He wants to be your friend and walk closer with you than a brother. This sounds simplistic and it is. Cry out to Him, telling Him all your troubles and He will answer you. He is right there for you. Welcome to this blog and glad that you are here!!
Storm Tossed, I’ve looked for our initial responses to your first post but can’t find them. Changes have ocurred so maybe they got lost. Just want to say again how very much you matter here.
like a child,
Fred is so right! “Jesus is love and He loves you more than you can imagine!” Christianity is all about a relationship with our God. Our minds need to be involved ( the bible encourages us to have the mind of Christ) but our hearts need to be fully taken up with the Lord Jesus, His Father, and the Holy Ghost. No matter how much we try, our minds cannot alone comprehend the existence of the Living God. Faith plays much of the role in this. Hebrews is a good place to read if you wish to research this further.
In the meantime, we are glad you are here. There is so much faith on this blog that it could move the proverbial mountain. The people here have learned through fire and storm how to walk with our God. Maybe we can help you find your way. The Lord bless and keep you.
Dear like a child, what a BEAUTIFUL way to come to God. Can you imagine God is pleased with anything more than that? I can’t. I want to be more and more like that. Thank you for sharing your story here. I can only imagine the pain you are going through.
If you don’t mind me sharing just a bit… I know I can’t speak for every other mother on here, but I think that if I ventured this thought, most of the moms on here would add a hasty (although painful) amen. Dear like a child, you are so NOT alone if feeling completely inadequate as a mother. Mine are grown now, but I can’t tell you how many times I looked at my kids and questioned God’s love for them for how could God stick my kids with ME. Inadequate barely covered it. I felt like I was down right horrible some days. I would confess this to other moms and for the most part they would tell me they couldn’t have imagined me raising my voice. Believe you me, my kids could sure imagine it. I got what I called my voice from the pit of hell. I yelled at them and wished to heavens I could have taken back every word moments after I yelled.
All that to say, I bet you each and every one or at least most of the moms here can relate to you. I bet each of us felt inadequate as mothers. You’re not alone.
And I appreciate you sharing here. This site isn’t necessarily only about SGM but I believe also for others to come and share their expereinces in similar situations.
I’m glad you shared.
And ps. I don’t think God made any mistake in picking you out to be the mother of your children. He’s sorta smart that way.
Many hugs and best,
Stunned
pss. Fred is so right! Just rest in how much God loves you. He’ll take care of showing you His love. You only need to rest in it as much as you can and trust that He loves you in spite of your mess ups and lack of faith. (Actually, if you were perfect, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to come anyway.) Just remember that verse, “I believe. Help my unbelief.” (One of my favs! Who can’t love that?)
Like a child–
I’ve been in PCA churches for years, and have had some great experiences…and one lousy one. I can relate.
But here’s what I know: ”if we confess with our mouths Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we shall be saved.”
Some of the reformed crowd (I’m totally reformed, admittedly) teach that you don’t know if you’re elect or not until death.
This is heresy so revolting that it must enrage the Father heart of God.
This is how the reformed song really goes:
1. Lost in trespasses, hearts so desperately wicked that no one can know God.
2. The Holy Spirit comes, brings a quickening. Turns the heart of stone towards an irresistible gospel.
3. We find ourselves interested in spiritual things…and desire to become a believer in Jesus.
4. We walk in his sure grasp until death, when we stand before the Father, clothed in his righteousness, and here “Enter, good and faithful servant.” Not as a result of what we’ve done–only as a result of our blessed Redeemer’s work.
Don’t ever doubt, no matter what side of the theological fence you drop on, that anything besides faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. On the reformed side of the fence, the very fact you desire salvation is unalterable proof that your Father has called you to himself, and you came, giving your heart to him.
Hope you find a body of believers with whom you can relax and worship so great a God!
Welcome to Refuge!
RT posted;
“Some of the reformed crowd (I’m totally reformed, admittedly) teach that you don’t know if you’re elect or not until death.
This is heresy so revolting that it must enrage the Father heart of God.”
Amen! Amen! A-MEN!
Love you RT!
The assurance of salvation is one o the most precious gifts the Christian has in this life. To trivialize it as being answered only when you die is like saying you won’t get the correct fortune until you put your quarter in the fortune teller machine. Salvation becomes at best a mystical carnival game or at worst a Magic-8 ball roll.
I think one has to have the assurance of salvation to be an effective soldier for Christ.
–pk
PK — also the “assurance of righteousness” not of our own but gloriously all HIS that we can walk power and might of His Holy Spirit !!
Irv:
AMEN!
–pk
HI, it looks like no one has posted THEIR STORY in a while, but here’s ours. We’re right in the middle of it, or end of it perhaps…
I found a SG church through a co-worker and have been attending for 8 years now. My husband was not a believer (I came to Christ first in our marriage) and he got saved there, through the love and prayers and reaching out of the members during that time.
Here were are 8 years later faced with the possibility of HAVING to leave. Not because we feel we should or want to, but because, NEWS FLASH: SGM does not support missionaries. We shared about a year ago the call God has been speaking to us for a LONG TIME with our friends at church, then leadership. We have gotten nothing… Nothing. Total black hole, except for a few, count-them-on-one-hand kindred spirits. Out of many 100s at our church. No, “that’s GREAT! Good for you!” or, “Awesome! We’re with you!”. It’s WEIRD. TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WEIRD the reaction we have gotten. The looks say it all: shock, then disbelief, then “are you approved to be missionaries??”, “did you talk this over with leadership??”. They don’t say that, of course, but the face and the silence says it all.
Little to no support; and I mean moral, spiritual, emotional – forget about financial. SGM just does not have room in their missiology for missionaries. Pastors are the only ones called, forget the rest of the Body in spreading the gospel. The local church is raised up as the end of all ends. You can go on a pre-approved, church-sanctioned e-trip, just don’t think of going on your own or thinking you could hear the voice of God if it’s outside SGM. The response has been COLD, indifferent nothingness, from everybody save a few handful of friends, mostly missions-minded, foreigners who know first-hand the tremendous need abroad.
I could list any number of incidents of the lack of support, cold shoulder, shunning-type experiences that have left us continually dazed and confused, but I won’t right now. After finding this site, and reading the testimonies, I can see clearly what I have always seen, just didn’t want to accept maybe. The top-down, organizational-type structure of leadership within SGM does not allow the common folk, you and me, the Body of Chirst, to be free to pursue our calling and fulfill our giftings and destiny in Christ IF IT DOES NOT FIT THE SGM CHURCH MODEL.
We are deeply saddened, maybe me more than my husband (a natural leader, does what he has to do no matter what other people say or don’t say – love him!). Today I was in the shower and felt a feeling I haven’t felt in a while – GRIEF. It really hurts. It hurts that the very body of Christ, and the pastors “called” to oversee our souls blah blah are missing it. They’ve totally missed the point. It seems, sadly, that the SGM laypeople are kept from ever becoming or DOING anything for Christ and His Kingdom, what they were created to do (Eph 2:10), because if you’re not called to be a pastor, or CG leader, there’s just no place for you. And that’s the stinking truth. Sad and tragic.
It is deeply grievous to us that we have to LEAVE our church home to fulfill our calling in Christ when the very church that is supposed help us live out being the part of the body we were created to be ACTIVELY DISCOURAGES it.
Preposterous.
The other day an elder/church leader, said to me, “You know, there are some missionaries that don’t want to work, they just want to be paid to go live abroad and do nothing.”
Yah. Okay. These are the same people that are too afraid to go, but spend their extra money on cruises because “God delights in seeing his children happy” etc etc.
Anyway, so be it. God is bigger. God is bigger. I love Jesus, he’s my life, I follow Him, not the church I attend. The Shepherd leads, the sheep know His voice and follow Him.
Moving on.
Bless all of you. God binds up the broken-hearted, does He not? Life in abundance is found in HIM, NOT exclusively in SGM.
If anyone has comments or encouragement on our story, I would love to hear them. We need that a lot right now. After 8 years we have NO ONE, no support base to go as missionaries. We have to start all over from scratch, because we’ve been forced to. Not because we want to. So… terrible. Where do we go from here? Only God knows, but we must press on.
Later I will post my real name and our missions website so you can read about us and see that we’re really not as crazy as everyone in our SG church now thinks we are – you know, for stepping out and actually following Christ’s commands.
Anon, raise your sail and allow the Spirit to blow and direct you as HE WILLS—–So freeing!
Great big hugs, Anon. You are NOT alone. You are completely right when you say, “God binds up the broken-hearted, does He not?” He does! And he will for you.
Anon,
It’s so good to see the “My Story” site active again. We learn so much from each other.
I am sad to see that SGM, or at least your particular church, has not changed in the area of missions work. I had friends years back who were called by the Lord multiple times to serve as missionaries but each time they were told by leadership not to. So, they did not go. Very sad.
I am glad that you and your husband are listening to God instead of men. Many of us have felt what your are feeling – aloneness, loss, grief, where do we go from here? Look at this time as an exciting journey of faith, a time where the Lord Jesus will guide your footsteps as you fulfill your calling to go to the ends of the earth to preach the good news of Jesus Christ. There is nothing more exciting than walking by faith!
Also, I am deeply sorry that you did not find support among the fellowship you have been with. That really must have hurt. I am glad your husband sees obedience to the Father as being more important than obedience to some man who claims to have authority in yoru lives. There may be hardships in the future as you follow your calling but God will always, always be faithful as you follow Him. There will be so many blessings! Sincerely, Canary
I’m not sharing much of my story yet but just wanted to say I’m glad this site and Survivors are here. We left an SGM church a while back after being members for many years. More people are still leaving our former church, going all sorts of different places. Most don’t know where they are going when they leave but they just want out. So they visit around and visit around and even if they haven’t found where they want to stay yet, they say they are amazed at how healthy and life-giving these other churches are after they have believed for so long that the SGM way was superior, that everyone else was missing out. I thought I would be in SGM until I died. I was right in a way. My joy died, My peace died. Life is coming back to me now. There is a resurrection after all! Hallelujah! Thanks for being here.
Hi Anon, I can relate to many of your emotions. Our church has seen an ongoing exodus of member after member who “had” to leave in order to obey what God was leading them to do. I wrestled with why, why, why??? Why will leadership not allow God to be God. Why do they have to control everything? Etc. etc. Finally a few weeks ago I found in this website the information that CJ and Purswell teach the PC students that they really think they stand in the stead of God. In all my years in SGM (20+), I never knew they had such a papal view of themselves. And not just one pope, all the pastors stand in the stead of God. Now I understood why they felt they had to control everything.
It is grievous. But may God bless your obedience. Don’t waste your energy trying to understand why they are “missing” it. I understand your grieving. I went through that for quite a long time. I wrestled with how they could be “missing it”. But I now understand that they don’t care. They have their place, standing in the stead of God, in the same succession as Moses and the prophets. They don’t have a clue how wrong they are and don’t care. I just pray that God will somehow make the members aware that they are responsible to be obedient to Him and Him alone (as you are doing). We don’t have to obey men who think they are in the stead of God (unless God tells us to in some individual case for some reason of His own.) May God free the members from this false yoke of obedience. Phariseeism. May God be merciful and deliver! There is such freedom in obeying God Alone!
God bless your missionary endeavors. And God is using the posters here, imperfect though they may be. (At least they know they are imperfect.) He is using them to free the SGM members from blind obedience to man standing in the stead of God instead of obeying God himself. They are missionaries to the SGM members who need to hear the truth.
Thank you Anon, Lady in Waiting and BB for speaking truth in the midst of your pain and grieving. God will use your stories to lift the veil off others who are still held captive in darkness and in a counterfeit Christianity. The truth about SGM is so very sad but what would be sadder still is to remain in the captivity and not fulfill our destinies in Christ. Through God’s mighty deliverance, bringing us out of SGM, He is bringing us into His abundant life and into HIS church and HIS Christianity.
Anon, I am celebrating with you and the marvelous journey that you are beginning in obeying God’s call of missions for you and your husband! Even though you are still grieving, put one foot in front of the other and continue moving forward. I will not pretend that it is easy for I have been out sometime now. I am still healing from the many years of deception but as stated above, Jesus heals our broken hearts He will restore what the locusts have devoured in each of our lives and the lives of our families! May God bless each of you today as you breathe in the very Spirit of God and walk in the freedom that is yours through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Dear anon,
Long years ago (twenty-five, as it happens) Mark Altrogge wrote these lyrics:
The nations are waiting for us
They’re dying to hear the song we sing
The nations are waiting for us
Waiting for the gospel we will bring
That in each nation men might come to know the King…
And yet the promise of those words (it was an awesome song) remains unfulfilled in SGM.
I know your grief. I have felt it too. I have brought up to more than one pastor, and been told I was the one who was wrong.
The song continues:
Jesus, You lead us
Calling us onward
A glorious army
With banners unfurled;
It’s our decision
to follow Your vision
We’re on a mission
A mission to the world!
And the nations are waiting
The nations are waiting
Waiting…
I share your heartache. Yet I am so happy for you, that you have felt God’s call together, and that you are able to follow His leading together. That is a wonderful thing.
Bless you.
p.s. Milord and milady, Protestant Knight and gracious Dame, I am posting under a different email. It’s still me, though. Just wanted to mention that openly.
Happy New Year to everyone!!
anon,
Thankyou for sharing your personal journey within SGM and how they arrest the call of missions in the heart of those whom He has called. Another example of SGM edging out the leading of the Holy Spirit and discarding the giftings that GOD has imparted to each individual Believer.
In our family we have one pastor, who cares for his people and also has a passion for missions and leads the way in outreach and support . And another family member who has been a missionary/evangelist to a 3rd world country for 25 years.
Needless to say, he is aghast at SGM’s defintion of “missions.” !! I pray the Lord will continue to lead you and direct your footsteps to sow in the field He draws you to.
Luna Moth, I remember singing that song—with hearts full of vision—Sadly, the SGM papal hierarchy and polity have replaced the governance of the King of Kings.
Fred— THANKYOU for your words of truth and encouragement! Amen and Amen!
Anon, It occurred to me a little while ago that I heard a message which is relevant to your dilemma. It was from the Pastors’ Conference (wonder why they don’t call it the Elders’ Conference??) this past fall. It explains a lot on why SGM is so inward focused. Here is the link: It’s called Rethinking the Mission of the Church. http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....les.aspx I understand some of the perspective. It would almost make sense if SGM had gotten carried away with missions and neglected the members. But no danger of that so . . . It may help you understand why you keep getting the “no” message, instead of “go for it if God has called you” message.
And in the message there was a statement that flabbergasted me. I even transcribed it. If this has been posted on and I missed it, please forgive the redundance.
“My definition of a hero is someone who does the right thing, in the right way, for a long time, whether people notice or not. And there are thousands of unheralded, unknown pastors, unknown churches, many of you here, who fit that definition. And you marry, and bury, and you preach, and teach, and you hold hands. You pat people on the back. And you attend the open houses, and you attend meetings, and you pray like you believe it. And you sing on Sunday like you mean it. And even if the coffee is BAD, and the pay is low and the music is so so . . . you brothers and sisters keep loving. You keep on proclaiming the same gospel. They say insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. But that goes out the window if God is sovereign and the thing that you keep on doing is the very thing that God has called you to do. Faithful, humble, diligent, reliable, gentle, courageous, imperfect, ordinary pastors and their beloved wives . . . these are the men and women of whom the world is not worthy.”
If you want to see the ones God calls “of whom the world is not worthy” read Hebrews 11: 32-38. I know there are some real pastors out there who serve in obscurity and lay down their lives for their flocks. But drinking really BAD coffee doesn’t really measure up the same way.
BB, I’m applauding your last line!
We all need encouragement, but when I read that description above I kept thinking, how is this different than any other Christian I know?
BB,
Ohmygoodness…the transcibed statement above clearly illustrates the SGM proclomation that SGM pastors are elite and above (“standing in the very stead of God’”) all other Christians–”these are the men and women of whom the world is not worthy.” Ugghh..
and for what?? As Stunned stated the description of pastors and their wives is not different than any other Christian we all wak with. What a stark contrast to the ones GOD calls “of whom the world is not worthy” in Hebrews 11.
Really, I’m still picking my jaw up over that arrogant self-exalting statement.
Sickening.
Waters, what cracks me up are some of the dramatic lines.
“My definition of a hero is someone who does the right thing, in the right way, for a long time, whether people notice or not.”
Immediately I thought of mothers of young ones. Who notices they change (and sometimes wash out) the filthy diaper, wash the floor on their hands and knees for the umpteenth time. Or the janitors who “get to” clean up a kid’s puke or clean a window only to get to see someone put their fingers on it seconds later, or wash a bathroom stall after someone has had a mistake (but unfortunately for them, hours afterward and after things have had a chance to fester). I, honestly, thought that that was where the speaker was going with this. So when I realized they were talking about pastors I nearly started laughing out loud. Seriously, no one ”notices” the guy standing… ON STAGE…. IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE OF HUNDREDS? WEEK AFTER WEEK AFTER WEEK? No one notices the guy who yells and shouts, then suddenly whispers and cries and stomps? Are you kidding me? (I come from a family lousy with pastors and seminarians, by the way. I have plenty of compassion and sympathy for them. But “whether people notice or not” is seldom their burden. Especially in a leader worshipping place like SGM.)
And puh-lease. Their wives don’t get noticed enough? Are these the same wives who hear lines FROM THE PULPIT about how they are soooo much better than their own husbands and how they are the ones to be emmulated, and how beautiful they are and how lucky their husbands are to have them. Go ahead, try to think of an entire year that ever went past in your SGM church where a pastor’s wife was not praised from the stage. Now think of every other person in that church. Did every one of them get a kudos from the stage that year, too. Was every single one of them mentioned by name, individually, one at a time, the way the pastor’s wife was? Was each person, individually, one sermon at a time, praised for their godliness, beauty, faithfulness, fillintheblank? No?
Then where do these guys (cause I assure you this same drivel was repeated) get off giving this address to pastors and their wives and making them think that THEY should be pitied or that THEY don’t get enough attention.
(Sorry, but how bad of an ego can you have where as a pastor things other than your own cover ups don’t get noticed enough for you in SGM?! Do they have a freaking CLUE what life is like for the rest of us who truly toil through life without recognition? Sorry, but I really did - for some naive reason of my own I suppose- think they were about to launch into a reminder of how lucky they all were to have men and women in their churches who toil and serve faithfully in absolute obscruity instead of launching into some ego boosting self pity crap. I know I come across as bitter and angry but I am actually a very hopeful person who – for some stupid reason- still assumes the best of SGM so am shocked- or stunned- when reality hits me in the face like this.)
“And there are thousands of unheralded, unknown pastors, unknown churches, many of you here, who fit that definition.” *Tires screeching………..* Wait, you meant to say “Janitors in your church and mommies in your midst”, didn’t you?
“ And you marry, and bury, and you preach, and teach, and you hold hands. You pat people on the back. And you attend the open houses, and you attend meetings, and you pray like you believe it. And you sing on Sunday like you mean it. ”
Just like all the people who sit through your marriage ceremonies and funeral speeches and Sunday sermons and then who reiterate everything you said and study on it and “Berean it” and who hold hands with those who are hurting (and we’d hold your hands, too, if only you’d let us). And everyone else pats people on the back. (How is this anything other than the exact same human condition that everyone on earth finds themselves in?) Attend the open houses? Are you serious? And you attend meetings. (We all do that, too. PS. How is that praise worthy in the least?) And you pray like you believe and you sing like you believe it. Wait, you DON’T believe it? And if you do, again, how is that different than anyone else who sings and prays “like they believe it”. (What an odd phrase, btw.)
“And even if the coffee is BAD”
this is when I began to feel a bit sick. Wait, bad coffee is a… burden? What kind of freaking Starbucks’ addiction must you have to compare bad coffee with the martyrs of Hebrews 11?
“, and the pay is low ”
Wait. Seriously? I know there are a few pastors in SGM that get paid didly – squat. But I’ve also been in some of the McMansions that other SGM pastors own. (Great incentive to keep working your way up the butt kissing ladder there, btw.) But even those of us who get paid diddly-squat in the US have little to complain about compared to millions of people who are drawing breath as I type. (Wait, three people just starved to death while I typed this paragraph. Another four just died of lack of clean drinking water. So we can remove those seven from the millions of people ’cause they count, too.) So if we can stand up from where we are sitting, in our home, under a roof and walk over to a sink with a working tap and if we can turn that tap on and if water can flow from that tap, and if that water is not brown and opague, but clear and if it doesn’t have small creatures that the human eye can actually detect, swimming around in it, then we are freaking RICH, my friends and have NO business getting patted on the back for our low pay in SGM land.
these are the men and women of whom the world is not worthy.”
barf, barf, barf Where is CJ’s humility book when we need it? It would sure come in handy…. to swat this speaker in the back of the head and knock some sense in to them.
In fairness I must point out that the speaker Kevin De Young is not SGM. Don’t know anything about him. But this is the kind of stuff they feed the pastors at the conferences. Explains a lot.
Interesting, the link BB gave in post dated Jan 4th is no longer available!! At least, not on my computer! Deception and cover-up once again. A “ministry” that wants to hide things from the people is downright frightening!!
I’ve sat through far too many messages such as the ones about which Stunned is ranting.
And, rant on, sister, I know of the mcmansions and the pastor’s wives that always had a handmaiden to do her dirty work.
Oh, please, the backhanded sort of whining and grousing when they live in luxury.
And the people that were truely working without notice, dare I mention people like Stunned that quietly served these pompous asses without asking for kudos and not receiving even a humble thanks from those ungrateful bums, people like Stunned are those of whom any scriptural reference is about. (was there even a lame attempt at a biblical reference, I forget.)
No, the loud self aggrandizing ones have been given their rewards on this earth. Imagine the shock when their backsides end up in Heaven and they get to ride in the back of the heavenly bus whilst the Stunneds that they saw fit to take for granted and discard when they were finished with them are given the choicest of seats at the banquet table.
If you get back to the original context of BB’s post, this gets even more stark. American pastors have absolutely nothing to complain about compared to foreign missionaries. Reading a good dose of missionary biographies can cure a lot of that nonsense. Since SGM likes Piper so much, his wife Noel’s book Faithful Women would be a good place to start for the ladies. Think you are faithful much? You ain’t done nothing yet compared to these chicks! (Not to minimize the work of mothers at all! Just that I remember every time I move my clothes from my washer to my drier that I am not using a washboard and bushes by a muddy stream!)
It is still there. Maybe you can find it if you go directly to their web site and search on this. I think the link didn’t copy correctly.
Pastors Conference roundup: audio, video, books, and articles
November 6, 2010 by Sarah Lewis Categories: Conferences | Resources
The name of the audio message is:
5. Kevin DeYoung, “Rethinking the Mission of the Church”
I don’t think they want to hide this particular thing. But IMO they ought to put their ideas about standing in the stead of God in their membership information. They didn’t believe that when we joined 2 decades ago. If they had, I’d have run away. Every person I have mentioned this to is amazed when I tell them this is how they see themselves.
Kevin DeYoung is a pastor who co-authored Why We’re Not Emergent, a decent enough book. His coffee reference may be contrasting your standard evangelical church with some of the emerging churches, who often welcome their guests with gourmet brands of coffee. (That’s just a guess on my part!) I don’t think he was saying anything at all against missionaries, or even comparing missionaries to pastors. I’ve read much that I liked from DeYoung. And to be fair, the average American pastor does have a really tough time. The turnover rate is ferocious. There is always discouragement and opposition from one quarter or another. And yes, even some real slander and gossip that can damage the ministry. Progress comes slowly with a lot of setbacks. Budgets are always an issue. And time with their wives and children is severely hindered because they seem to be on call all the time. Please cut pastors some slack, even if you have a beef against ones in SGM. We each have to be faithful wherever God puts us. If that is what they are doing from their hearts, they fully deserve to be commended.
Yes, DB……..and I think of “Esther”, who served in her home church of Chesapeake for almost 20 years, quietly…faithfully….and then when the culmination of her lifes trials came to a head, and she began to aggressively seek pastoral (now titled elder) and apostolic (now titled regional overseer) help—she was threatened with church discipline if she did not abide by the counsel of BC and KB in Chesapeake. In her letter to SS and GE she penned a humble and beautiful letter,quoting from the book of Ruth, as she appealed for help and her desire to remain among her people of Chesapeake church. Her answer?
Go to your pastor and do as he says (remain in abusive situation).
(See “Esthers Story—My Story of Hope” on Refuge site)
Yes, DB—many of us know saints who far exceed in Christ-like character compared to the head-bobbing posture of self-proclaimed humility and servanthood of SGM leaders. All the required meeeeetings leadership partakes of strengthens their papal arrogant opinion of their ‘role’…cloaked in proclomations of being a worm and “the worst sinner I know.”—
Jesus encouraged us to be fruit inspectors —so we will know the real deal by their fruit. Rotten fruit carries a distinct stench. A stench arouses our senses that ‘something’ is decaying , ‘something’ is rotten — the discoveries of the source of the stench continues to be uncovered on sites like the Refuge and Survivors.
Rotten fruit does not produce life, but sickness……leaven,pollution………
Fred, I tried to go the link also, and it is no longer available. They are already attempting to cover up the stench, but the aroma of what was publically stated is written out on this site. I just love the sovereignty of God and His Word to uncover that which is hidden (Dan 2). Because He IS Truth and loves Truth and makes access for us to see and know
the Truth. Truth keeps us awake, Saints!
Lady in Waiting, I’m with you on the bushes and muddy stream! How unbelievably lucky are we?
DB, you praise me much too much. You’ll make people around here think I am a good woman. Stop that. I have the least servant’s heart on earth. (I remember the hours you spent working on our church’s after the service lunches, DB.) People come to my house and I have to force myself to offer them something to drink or eat. I’m always thinking of their feelings and seldom of the practical physical needs they have. God made many people with true servants heart’s and they inspire me. I yearn to have more of a heart of service in the every day practical. I may have hands to work, but my heart is often far from the practical. (Maybe that’s why I have so many tears. He gave me extra “water” for the crying work.
) But thank you all the same.
PS. Do ya’ll know how many children DB has birthed and raised up and turned out to be amazing people? And all the hours she spent sewing their clothes and doing all the dirty work of mother hood on a less than pastor’s salary for many of them? OK, no more nice guy. I’ll go back to being my crabby self now.
We should acknowledge that SGM is not against foreign missions, even if they do not often support folks who are going overseas with other organizations. Three of my children had their first foreign missions experiences on Mission:X teams. The staff at Metro Life, with full endorsement by the pastors, was always quite willing to print Chichewa language Bible tracts for me to send to a pastor in Malawi.
Vida
My definition of a hero begins with, “one who walks in integrity no matter the cost.” My definition of a pastor is “one who cares for the sheep, no matter the cost.” Bad coffee aside, the pastors we dealt with did not perform well in either definitions, not with us, not with the others who were forced out because we “didn’t understand the doctrine of sin”. My hat is off to men like FSGP, who truly walks in his calling even though he no longer has the job of a pastor.
Stunned, you rock.
Vida, as the sister of a foreign missionary whom used to be supported by many of her SGM bretheran until CJ came down and told them all to stop, I’d like to say that SGM’s support of foreign missions is an extremely narrow support. One that no where near matches scripture nor that which matches the work of millions upon millions of missionaries that God has called out over the past 2,000 years. I am glad that your SG church did all that printing for you. I think that is wonderful and I rejoice over all the Malawians who received the bibles. That is great news.
Stunned
Lady in Waiting, Thanks for the info on Kevin DeYoung. And I appreciate what you have to say about pastors in general. Actually, one thing I originally appreciated about SGM (People of Destiny in those days) is they didn’t treat their pastors like dirt. At that point, they taught that we all were called to evangelize and minister to each other. Ministering wasn’t just a job for pastors, but all believers. So they weren’t expected to do all the dirty work and be on call at all hours. And I appreciated how gossip and slander were discouraged so that sort of leaven was minimized. But somehow, over the years things morphed into the current state where pastors are elevated to some level above human and people weren’t allowed to question them for fear of being accused of gossip and slander.
And I don’t have a beef with all the pastors in SGM anyway. Several of them have been treated wrongly since this whole man in the stead of God mentality has come about. But teaching the upcoming young men that they are elevated and that regular folk are not worthy of them is doing their souls no good either. It’s just a sad situation for everyone on all sides of the issue.
Lady in Waiting and Stunned,
So very true, we Americans are generously blessed in our everyday live compared to much of the worlds poor and needy. I am encouraged to hear Vida’s report that Metro printed the Bible tracts in the Chichewa language.
Kevin DeYoung, pastor of a Reformed church in Michigan, ironically issues very SGMite accolades to the SGM pastor audience. SGM leadership proclaims they “stand in the very stead of God” and “are the first among equals”. (See PKs post on Refuge on the origin of “the first among equals”). Time and again we receive reports of SGM pastors who control,manipulate, lie and lord over and wound their congregants — and then they attend a pastors conference to become encouraged that, by golly, they are the men and women of whom the world is not worthy. What is happening in Christianity? This leaven of religous control needs to be seen for what it is —usurping the Lordship of Jesus Christ in the hearts and minds of Believers — and obscuring the Godly pastors out there who genuinely do care for and guide their sheep— pointing them to Jesus and equipping them to be led by Him..
Canary, to the heart of the matter, you have defined integrity and pastor Amen!
The “Verse of the Day” from Bible Gateway:
Isaiah 1: 16-17
“Wash and make yourselves clean
Take your evil deeds out of My sight
Stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless,
Plead the case of the widow.”
Thank you to ALL for all your kind and, above all, ENCOURAGING words. I literally CRIED when I read them all because this is the FIRST TIME in a YEAR since we’ve shared our long-kept burden and passion and call to missions, that we have heard this kind of encouragement. What does that say about the church we go to???
Vida, your statement, “We should acknowledge that SGM is not against foreign missions, even if they do not often support folks who are going overseas with other organizations”…
WHA???
Not supporting it IS being against it. You’re either for or against. One or the other. Or neutral if to chicken to take a stance. Silent is also a nice strategy. Leave them guessing.
They do not support foreign missions BECAUSE they do not EVER support folks who are going overseas with other organizations. There is no money for you. No wall in church displaying all the believers who have gone out from here to labour in the fields. No moral, spiritual, or emotional support. No prayers said. Nada. You can forget it. It’s policy. Even if a pastors wants to support you, he can’t. He’s a man under “authority”.
I am glad to hear about the small favor, Vida, they did for you in helping a pastor abroad. But sending a couple of tracts is NOT the same thing as supporting many missionaries FROM the believers from your church, the very Body of Christ, His hands and His feet here on earth, to the very ends of the earth to spread the gospel!
On another note… as for the link above, I don’t think it was removed, it doesn’t work though. Here is one that does:
http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....hurch.aspx
So, on with MY STORY…
It is not nearly as bad as many who have posted here, that is for sure. This deeply saddens and, in all honestly, shocks me the sheer number of people who have been so poorly treated in SGM. I had never heard the term “spiritual abuse” before, but your stories sound like the definition. I almost can’t believe it. But I do, because I know you are not lying. And I have experienced similar, profoundly confusing and painful, UNBIBLICAL things.
Overall, I have to say, our experience has been good, in fact. There are true believers, wonderful, wonderful people in SG (like many of you – NORMAL Jesus lovin folks) who are just deceived in some areas of doctrine. They buy it hook, line, and sinker. Then dutifully live it out. Good people, bad teaching. Not in ALL areas, just some. ANd that’s what makes the experience SO CONFUSING. That is why you don’t see it for so long. That is why those we leave behind don’t understand why we left. That is why you doubt yourself, feel guilty perhaps of judging people, when it’s not YOU, it’s the system. The “sound doctrine” that’s not wholey sound.
We have overall had a very + experience at SG. It only turned bad when we ever tried to rock the boat (not intentionally) but by just following the Word of God. Simple things like suggesting we all fast and pray together, hey let’s have a Bible study at my house , or hey let’s go on a mission trip! Or saying things like, “Hey let’s apply what we’ve learned and go downtown and feed the homeless!”. I learned early on that you don’t suggest things yourself. It became clear that I was a nobody, if I heard from God on anything, it was better to just keep it to myself, it felt just like… being truncated, rejected, put in place. The men, the poor men in SG are totally castrated. Not by any fault of their own. There are so many good men with so many varying gifts and no where to use them.
For example, if you go to our SG church’s website all you see are tabs for “About Us”, “Our Life”, us us us; under ministries you don’t find “Prison Ministry” “Homeless Ministry” “Single Moms”, “Evangelism” “Missions Opportunities” etc etc etc. There is nothing to do but go to church, serve in church, and place your money in the basket for those with more wisdom to decide what to do with it.
Another example: Once I taught a class of homeschoolers X language. I thought it would be great to go on a trip at the end of the year to not just apply what we learned, but (gasp) serve God and those in need in needier places than suburbia. I wrote up a survey to gauge interest (and because I know how protective SG parents are about their teens, I wanted to respect that). 17 no’s, 1 yes. The one yes was a girl who attended a different church! AHHHHHHHHHHH!
Okay.. whatever I thought. They gave me all sorts of reasons. It doesn’t matter here what they were. There’s money for vacation, though. Oh yes, there’s time and money for Disneyland (not that I would never go to Disneyland, but you get my drift). I also got the strong sense that they were afraid because it was actually following God/His Word, and not a church-sanctioned e-trip.
Another time someone at church said to me, “Hey, there’s a SG church close to here [the one that planted ours] and they’re going on a mission trip to X country. You’re fluent in that language, you’d be great on that trip.” I thought, awesome missions!! Silly, silly me. My husband, also fluent, said “you go, I’ll take off for a week and stay with the kids, you go and translate for them, they’ll need it”. I found a super cheap ticket on a different flight (since it was late in the game) so I could meet them there, so I contacted the guy who was heading it up. He waited a week to call me back only to say, “Well, we do have a young girl that has been studying the language, and it’s more for the youth, we do already have our team, and I wouldn’t say it’s all ‘inward focued’ (he really said that) but thank you, no, no thank you.” I was stunned. STUNNED. Are you kidding me? Here is someone who SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE, goes to the church you planted, you can call up the pastor probaly your good friend and verify she’s not a wacko, she is paying her own way because she wants to just translate for you, not asking anything in return, and you say NO??? What is wrong with you, for the love of all that is good? We never told anyone at church about that, didn’t want to, you know, make it appear that we were “gossiping” or “slandering”.
So, back to taking my language class on a mission trip. They all said no, so our family ended up going. Just us, all by ourselves, serving the LORD in His fields. It was AWESOME. We raised all our own support (I WAS very happy to see the Lord’s people at our church rise up and come to our fundraiser and give and send supplies and support us individually – hats off to them), BUT while we were gone not a prayer was uttered for us from up front. They didn’t even mention us. They didn’t give us a dime either. Not that we were asking. But not a DIME from the “missions” fund to bless those, as someone said in this thread, that don’t even have water that is not brown and unfit to drink? Come on.
SGM is for missions? Forgive me, but that is BALONEY.
The “missions fund” at OUR SG church is only for sending people of their choosing to the Pastors College. $50,000 in one year (yes, that’s what it costs) goes a lot further, they reason, if invested in a pastor than in an individual or family who is willing to give it all up and REALLY suffer to take the gospel to the hard places, on the front lines, at the ends of the earth.
Well, that’s all for now. Thanks for listening. My husband and I have only told 1 or 2 friends in all these years about all this, so this is cathartic in a way for me. And it’s the truth. It all happenned. And there’s more. Stay tuned.
grace and peace in Christ,
Anon
Does anyone know anything about the Pastor that is going to do a Church Plant in Durham, NC. Eric Holter
Anon,
I will concede that SGM is quite deficient in their approach to foreign missions, but they ARE still involved in their own way. i would also say that SGM churches are not a wise choice for those who plan to become full-time missionaries. i know there is a huge difference between that and sending teams of youth off for 2 weeks to get their feet wet. But i also think the level of missions involvement (global and local) varies from church to church. Like i said, Metro Life does have career missionaries from within the congregation, and when they leave for the field, there is public acknowledgement, prayers by the pastors in the service, a time for them to share with the congregation what they are doing, etc. i lament there is not money in the church budget for missionaries with other organizations, and that they have declined to be the official sending church for at least some of these missionaries. i think I have mentioned on other occasions that part of the SGM strategy is to partner with existing pastors in the various countries rather than try to send full-time Americans who would need to transplant and assimilate. That is not necessarily a wrong strategy. i just think it would be much more beneficial to broaden their horizons. All of these missions related issues in SGM should be addressed eventually, but considering all of the other more pressing problems, such as the numerous verifiable allegations of abuse, their tepid attitude toward global missions is not the worst accusation i can think of.
BTW, if you click on my screen name, it will take you to the Missions page on my blog.
I should also mention that when I taught at a home school co-op that met at Metro Life, a lot of the kids in my class were from member families in the church. The two years that we studied world history and geography, the other English and history teachers and I made an effort to regularly incorporate global missions into the curriculum. One year, we took the kids on a field trip to Wycliffe’s discovery center. We watched missionary videos. We read news reports about missionaries. We visited mission web sites. This past year, my middle school students all read a missionary biography and wrote a lengthy report on it. We also studied the concepts and vocabulary of the major world religions, including tribal, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and secularism. We talked at length about world missoins. We were trying to give them as much exposure and vision as possible. Maybe the rising generation will make a change in church policy.
Anon, thanks so much for your story. It all rings true!
I especially identified with this passage:
“We have overall had a very + experience at SG. It only turned bad when we ever tried to rock the boat (not intentionally) but by just following the Word of God….It became clear that I was a nobody, if I heard from God on anything, it was better to just keep it to myself, it felt just like… being truncated, rejected, put in place. The men, the poor men in SG are totally castrated. Not by any fault of their own. There are so many good men with so many varying gifts and no where to use them.”
If you’re not a pastor or CG leader, there’s simply no other opportunity provided for you to develop a ministry based on your gifts (together with other folks with a similar vision), that will be supported by your “local church.” If it doesn’t start and come down from on high, it just ain’t happenin’, no matter how scriptural or godly the intent.
This all contradicts Ephesians 4 (such a favorite passage in the old days of the “five-fold ministry”!), in which leaders are there not to “stand in the very stead of God,” but to equip the church for the work of ministry, so that all may come to fullness in Christ.
It’s funny. You can have a really good experience at your SG church until God steps in and messes it all up for you.
and what’s up with the word WOULD? We WOULD beleive that….We WOULD tend to disagree……We WOULD be more cautious with……..We WOULD be in Faith for…….We WOULD not be willing to put up with…….We WOULD not want to follow the example of…..We WOULD probably agree with………
You either do or you don’t.
Stunned, “ain’t” that the truth!!
Vida, thanks for the link to your blog, I will def. check it out some more - it looks like you have a lovely family. And that is so good to hear that you were sowing the seed of missions/reaching the lost in your hs co-op. That is WONDERFUL. I hope and pray that God water those seeds. He can do that. BUT, I also know the counter-active culture that works against them at SG. In a way, as some have stated on this site, they are grateful that they have left SG, not bitter, they see it as a blessing in disguise. I think that is true for us, too, as well as our children. I don’t want them to grow up and conform to the lukewarmness there in serving Christ. There is much to much more to following Him than what SG offers for it’s priveleged members. Now we are free to follow the Lord’s leading AND our children won’t grow up hearing that college, a job, marriage, kids, and coming to church is the only and correct way to follow the Lord.
I see you left Metro. Can I ask why? If you don’t mind sharing…
It sounds like Metro is slightly different than our own church in that they at least acknowledge missionaries and help them at least somewhat. I have never speak of that before in SG, so that is encouraging. Too bad they don’t trust them enough to give them any funds for the hard work they do, and actually withdraw support from others. Scandalous in my opinion.
One thing I will say is that some things seemed to have changed, if ever so slightly since the PDI/early SG days. At least in our SG church. There is a great emphasis on grace where we go (went), I don’t get the condemnation feel too much. But I read my Bible too, we have always studied our Bibles. We can read that we are free in Christ, not slaves to sin. We believe that and don’t struggle with “oh i’m such a wretched sinner and can not change” blah blah. All we ever heard in CG was how so-and-so sinned against his wife and had to ask forgiveness, or some other struggle to be free from habitual sin and condemnation. We never felt that doom and gloom. God’s grace for us maybe, I don’t know.
Yes, there are certain things people generally assume you must do or not do at SG if you are a Christian but that may be Christians across the board. We are all capable of judging our brother that way and we always think we know what Christianity should look like.
Another “improvement” if you will is that our senior pastor used to mention CJ from up front sometimes, and show pictures of him (that seems idolish to me now), and they used to elevate and praise CG leaders in that way as well. Fortunately that has lessened a great deal. The thing they still do is praise the pastors so very much, their humility etc. and praise certain people from time to time. Makes you feel like it’s somewhat of a social club with and “in” crowd and we’re not in!
My husband often notes how some people, even CG leaders, are very anti-social. You walk by them in the hall and they don’t even say hi. He is blown away by that and often wonders what Christianity means to them. There are people who have never talked to us, they don’t reach out – I don’t know why, but it feels… strange. Like, where is the fellowship again? But, we are not on the inside because we don’t fit the mold I suppose. Who cares, I prefer to have passion for Jesus and his Word instead of talk about my clothes or real estate or vacations. Please.
Well, that’s all for now, sorry I rambled. This has been a very mind-blowing week to find this Refuge (indeed it is!), and decide to finally leave our church and the shackles behind.
Stunned, touché!
Hi Anon,
I’m so very glad you are here!! You are always part of the “in crowd” here – you are a part of the family of God, being led by the Holy Spirit, & Jesus is our big brother! {{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}
Ellie
Hey Ellie, thanks. It’s good to be here, too. It really, really is. I have never, ever entered chats or a website or anything like that to begin dialoguing with complete strangers, but I am glad I am talking with all of you here. We all understand each other somehow, and we are still the Body of Christ, that is evident. It’s a blessing. And it is helping me process what we are going through, and this site will undoubtedly will be a support to us as we make our exit.
Has anyone posted anything on exiting in a way that honors Christ? My temptation is to not care and just go, but I too am the Lord’s ambassador and don’t want to tarnish His name.
I was just thinking of more of our story… I got saved abroad and was not able to find a church for some time, so all I had was my Bible and God’s Holy Spirit to teach me. I remember when we came back to the States (hubs was not saved yet) and I started looking for a church. I ended up at SG and I came with many problems in my marriage, due to the fact that hubby was not thrilled with my new found “crazy religion” lol (he later caught a bit of my ‘crazy religion’ PTL:)).
I called the church office one day in great need to talk and recieve encouragement and counsel, so naively asked to speak to the pastor. He was “unavailable”. Huh? I can’t talk to the Pastor?? That was my first flag – but, I was young and thought, “oh well, they must do it different here, what do I know, baby Christian that I am.” I was referred to my CGL. Okay.. he was a wonderful godly man and both he and his wife were amazing. But it was my first “hmmm” moment. The pastor was unapproachable and unavailable to his flock here. Strange, I thought. This is a classic example of good people, bad structure. I would only, 8 years later, discover that this was a COMPANY, not so much the living, breathing, organic body of Christ.
All throughout most of our time at SG he was unavailable. We were referred to the Pastor in Training or the CGL. We never were a part of his life, neither was he ours. Or ANY of the leadership for that matter. I figured out later that they had their own CG (for pastors/leadership). They were set apart from us. Such a shame, we really missed out I think, in living our lives together as believers. And they too. I did not like the elitism I was noticing.
Altho I mentioned some small positive changes, I am not an optimist when it comes to SG reform. I do believe God can do it, but I also don’t see the humility is there for man to allow GOD to do it; for them to consider that maybe there is a better way. Man’s traditions are too very deeply engrained at SG. Can you imagine the upheaval?? It may carry on business as usual for a while, but perhaps it will take something very, very serious and big to get the higher-ups attention and really change anything. The enticements of this world are strong – the lust of the eyes, the deceitfulness of riches, the pride of life are strong pulls indeed. It has not gone unnoticed by us the Polo shirts, the nice cars, the nice big houses, the special treatment lavished on the pastors by the well-to-do in the church (or maybe I’m jealous).
IF I had money like some of them have (we still do not know just how much our pastors make – I hear it’s a comfortable amount; I did see a nice family photo of the Mahaneys once – it looked like a pretty lavish back patio they were sitting on), I in good conscience could not spend it on myself. I have everything I need. There are starving kids in the world. There are millions perishing without Christ. There are pastors/evangelists/believers all over the world that can’t feed or clothe their families. Some don’t have Bibles and hand copy someone elses because they can’t get one.
We have noticed CJ’s messages on “Don’t waste your sports” (I could never listen to that from the title alone) and “how to plan a family vacation” or whatever it is that he thinks it of so much eternal importance he wastes hours preparing to give a message on. Forgive me if that sounds harsh. I have always had a problem with the materialism in our SG church. It makes me insane. But maybe that’s American Christianity? We are so rich.
All that to say, and don’t mean to sound callous – but, oh well, it’s not my problem. I can’t change a stinkin’ thing. I just pray for change. That is all I can do. Maybe we will go out vocally, maybe we won’t. Would it make a difference???
Moving on and HAPPY about it. Jesus is waiting.
Anon–your post above was great!
re: “Exiting.” This is a peculiar SGM thing. You are not exiting, you are joining with another “gathering” of believers for worship. You are the ambassador of the Lord, for sure, but you don’t tarnish his name when you simply move to another group of believers in your town. In “normal” churches, this is usually done with no shock, no problem.
SGM is so separated from the rest of the Body in any given town because of their weird exclusivity and disdain for the rest of us unwashed-masses of believers that they think you are in grave danger of apostasy if you worship with the other wretched congregations who “don’t do church right.”
But if you step away from that thinking, and remember that we are all ONE in Jesus, that membership in one church is not a binding Biblical concept (although I don’t think there is anything wrong with them, just that they in NO WAY supercede the fact that your citizenship is in heaven, and your position is as a son/daughter of God), then an “exit strategy” is not important.
Just don’t go sit next to the brethren at SGM on Sunday, but instead sit next to some of your other brethren on Sunday. I suspect SGM won’t care if you leave, they seem to brush their hands of you pretty easily. (You can’t even get your pastor on the phone. You think he cares about what you do?) You’ll have fun visiting around with the rest of us stinkers.
Let it go…hang in there adn enjoy the ride Jesus is taking you on!
anon said: “All throughout most of our time at SG [our pastor] was unavailable. We were referred to the Pastor in Training or the CGL. We never were a part of his life, neither was he ours. Or ANY of the leadership for that matter. I figured out later that they had their own CG (for pastors/leadership). They were set apart from us.”
This confused me for years, as well. I always thought that CJ would have a better understanding of “reg’lar folks” — since he didn’t have a real job, have to commute an hour each way, and have to work with unbelievers — if he & Carolyn would simply join a care group with normal church members. What’s the big deal, I thought — do we have some disease? Why couldn’t he just act like a real “pastor” and get to know us?
In the same way, CJ & Carolyn almost never attended any meetings that they didn’t lead themselves. Though they homeschooled their kids, neither of them ever attended any of the CLC homeschool-group meetings (in the many years my family participated), or had their girls contribute to the annual science fair or history fair. Again, it was a discouragement to my wife and me, as it became clear that the Mahaneys simply didn’t want to mix with regular CLC members except on Sunday mornings.
No Longer Deceived: You cracked me up. The “would” thing — and all the other speech patterns with the overuse of passive voice and syrupy syntax WOULD have driven me away. As members, we would be privileged to serve alongside those men of tested character who regularly serve us with their faithful execution of flowery, nebulous language. (Couldn’t resist.)
Anon: The more stories I hear, the more I believe that nobody feels like they fit in. Welcome to the club. Here’s a question for everyone — how many of us invited a pastor/wife/family over for dinner multiple times but were always turned down?
One of the saddest examples I know of: a family moved hundreds of miles to become part of a PDI church, because they were excited about the vision of community and being part of a vibrant, living church. Yet, they could never make friends. So, they talked to a pastor. He told them that if they didn’t have any friends, it was basically their own fault, you gotta be a friend to get a friend, etc. But the wife had tried to reach out to Mrs. Pastor — called her one week and asked if she’d come over the next week one day and spend some time worshipping together. Mrs. Pastor said she’d have to check with Reverend Hubby about that — then called back and said Hubby Pastor thought it just wouldn’t fit into her schedule. No offer to reschedule, meet for lunch, no reciprocal invitation. So the rebuffed lady tried another invitation. This time, she called a woman she liked, and asked if she’d like to get together for Bible study an hour ever week or so. The response? “Oh, I can’t. I’m already doing that with So-and-so.” Why wasn’ t there room for one more? Additionally, the wife was a gloriously gifted and well-educated musician — but her style wasn’t wanted for the worship team. The way she was treated was sort of like saying to a master chef — “there’s no place for your beautiful, delicious gourmet dishes at our covered dish supper. We’d rather you bring Vienna sausages, because everyone likes those better.” This lovely woman kept showing up, bringing Vienna sausages, with a smile on her face. But after several years of constant rejection, they packed their family up and moved back to where they came from — where they happily serve the finest in gourmet cooking to an appreciative congregation.
All God’s chillin have a place in the choir. Except in SGM.
How very, very sad.
Mr. Canary and I are aware of three different occasions when we were informed we could not be our pastor or cg leaders’ “best friends”. The first time happened when we moved near a couple we had known for many years and considered our friends. They were our cg leaders. However, they informed us that moving near them would not insure a closer relationship, since they were called to form friendships with other leaders. We puzzled over that strange comment, as we had no plans to monopolize their time.
The second occurrence happened when we Canarys moved on a church plant. Mr. Canary was informed by one of the pastors who also went and who was spending time with Mr. Canary in the former church, that Mr. Canary should not expect to be this pastor’s close friend.
The third time was shortly before we left PDI. We were interested in the CO church plant and had to fill out an application to be considered. On it was a peculiar statement. In my own words, it stated that those who went with the Pastor on the church plant should not expect to be the pastor’s best friends. Weird.
This is where I believe the whole isolation in the upper echelons is birthed from: the leadership makes the members NEED them so much (authority covering, get counsel, etc) but they are only a few men who cannot possibly handle all the people they supposedly “cover”. They create this need through their doctrine of “standing in the very stead of God”. When the members actually try to walk out this teaching, they find a pastor or cg leader’s closed door, or a church secretary who must schedule them in. The leadership also discovers its own need to be protected from all the baaahing sheep who constantly need their help. The solution is for leadership to raise themselves above these sheep (which is all ready a mindset) so they can have time for family and ministry to other leaders. They even get to a point of warning people before hand not to expect friendship from them.
If these “leaders” would first think of themselves as less important than the rest of us, and then allow the Holy Spirit to choose their relationships rather than mandate who can be their friends, this would go a long way to make the Body into one group where all are equal in the sight of God. Also, if the members were allowed to follow the Holy Spirit by serving in their gifts without being squelched, without having to ask permission, there would be more people ministering to each other. Leadership wouldn’t feel so pressed on all sides by needy sheep.
In other words, leadership makes itself invaluable to the sheep while not making themselves available unless they are leadership material. They have set themselves and the saints up for a no-win situation. It is impossible for a handful of men to meet the needs of five hundred sheep. I say, let the saints, who are priests, minister to one another without hindrance. Just a little thought from a tiny tweety…
Good point, my feathered friend.
I remember at Celebration, the pastors would stay in a hotel instead of in the dorms like the rest of us and they ate separately as well.
Awesome posts, peeps. Keep ‘em coming.
Canary, You sure hit the nail on the head— showing the decisive and definitive actions of pastors and leadership establishing the “Us and Them” mentality.
I have realized — my 19 years in SGM, the life-giving counsels I received were from my close friends— who listened—PRAYED, sought the Lord, and we walked through ‘stuff’ together. Pastors? Nope, my one time I went in for counsel, I was charged with the ‘sin’ of not having faith.— As you state, Canary,— let us continue to encourage the saints, who are priests, to MINISTER to one another without hindrance. And without the law, but with the heart (and discernment) of Jesus the Christ.
And DB,
I want to say a late thankyou—for making a stand on behalf of babies and children. Thankyou for being an advocate for those who couldnot speak (or cry-out for help). Thankyou for confronting leadership (including D Harvey) over the outrageous nurturing restrictions they were encouraging parents to participate in. In a sense, DB, you rescued many little ones. The Lord bless you and your family in the strength of His unfailing love. — Waters
DB, who paid for the pastors’ hotel and food? Hummmm…..
Waters,
I went into a Pastor’s office with my best friend and her husband because they needed some marriage counseling. I was there because I had been involved in helping them. The pastor asked me a direct question to which I answered truthfully. He looked at me straight in the eyes and said I was wrong. I was flummoxed. I knew my friend way better than he did. I was answering honestly but it apparently put her into a good light and that did not fit in with his counseling direction. At the time I was still the befuddled sheep who never challenged “authority”. However, it struck me much later how incredible it was for a non-witness to challenge the knowledge of the witness, to actually say I was wrong in what I’d seen.
Ironically, I was with my best friend and husband years later when the Lord finally broke through to him. I was there to counsel and pray for him. Mr. Canary was there to be a brother, to support this man through many more months of struggle as the Lord did His work. There was no pastor in sight. Just a few believers filled with the Holy Spirit (including the man’s sweet, patient wife) ministering as priests in the Kingdom of Heaven. Unfortunately, this story has a sad ending. That does not change the fact that the Lord used simple folk to offer His grace and compassion. I was actually healed that night of hypothyroid disease simply by the Holy Spirit being present. What a gift that was.
Leaders are supposed to raise believers up in the faith so they can do the work of the Lord. We were not free to grow up in PDI/SGM. We were kept in perpetual adolescence. After we left PDI, my husband and I were finally able to mature in Christ. It was hard going, a tough journey that continues as we increase in faith, which is pleasing to the Lord. There are no illusions to lean on, no “authority” covering to give us false peace. It’s stark reality out here in the trenches of faith. You either believe God or you despair. You walk with Him or you do not. His discipline is fully loving, His grace magnificent. I wouldn’t change my experience with Jesus for all the SGM’s in the world.
To add: If things are still the same in SGM as they were over 13 years ago when we left, I am truly saddened. I hope that there are some SGM churches who do not follow this pattern of controlling, isolated leadership. From the posts of new comers to this blog who are leaving their churches, it sounds so much like the Canary’s experience. The stories are so familiar. Is there ANY reform happening besides the fact that SGM has to be more careful in their public dealings or be called to the carpet by the blogs? I sure would love to hear some good news about this…
Canary, so much wisdom in your #12.
You also answered a question I’ve had for decades, which is, what is the relationship like between pastor and other members of a group “sent out” to “plant” a new church in another city? Part of me always assumed the group would bond closely, but another part of me thought that the group would also be likely to reproduce the relationship patterns (i.e., the caste system) of their home church.
So, they chose to reproduce the caste system, huh. Wow, just imagine how lonely the pastor’s wife and kids must have been — alone in a new city, but knowing they couldn’t become close friends with the neighbors with whom they could best relate!
I don’t know how close pastors’ wives became with those who went on the church plants. I do know that some of the Charlotte church plant team did not remain with the church. Don’t know what happened. Remember, leaders must bond with other leaders, and with members who show leadership qualities. That is what they feel called to do. What happens to the sheep who are lower on the totem pole? They get counseled/corrected when necessary but these leaders are not involved in the day to day lives of the members. At least that was our experience.
I say again that they Body of Christ is able, by the Holy Spirit, to minister to one another. That should never be hindered. Sure, we all make mistakes (even leaders do!) but we are able by God’s amazing grace to not only help each other but go out into the world to share the true gospel without needing a pastor’s permission. If you are called to missions, go! If you are called to lead a bible study with neighbors, do it! You don’t need permission from men to do God’s work. Leaders should be pleased to see their people out serving the Lord. They can be there to advise and support the members, to pray for them, but not control them!
Some church leaders are afraid that the members will make “messes”. They don’t like messes. So they control. I say, God has a huge roll of Bounty paper towels in heaven – he cleans up messes very well and teaches us through the process. Why can’t we trust Him with this? Why can’t leaders trust Him with their “flock”? Why do they not trust God in us?
Canary said, “I say, God has a huge roll of Bounty paper towels in heaven – he cleans up messes very well and teaches us through the process.”
Great line, Canary.
“Why do they not trust God in us?”
Because the SGM God is very, very weak — almost powerless to overcome “indwelling sin.” Is that because their Jesus is still on the cross, not ascended and reigning in Heaven with all power and authority (in us, as carriers of the dunamis that raised Jesus from the dead?)
And remember, they turned their backs on the Spirit’s demonstrations of power (deliverance, physical and emotional healing) demonstrated in the 70s and again in the 90s. They’re now worshiping an impotent God who can’t even remember if he’s gifted, or ungifted, someone!
I echo Canary’s experience after being taking out of the pseudo umbrella of authority and learning how to pray and get direction for myself.
It was frightening and I was constantly afraid I would make mistakes but, guess what? I didn’t make any mistakes that God couldn’t fix with a little navigational nudge here and there.
Being secure in my salvation instead of constantly second guessing myself (is it indwelling sin or am I hearing from God or was it the pizza last night?) was key.
We were supposed to have a direct relationshhip with God not a third party.
In #17 above, Canary asks
<<I hope that there are some SGM churches who do not follow this pattern of controlling, isolated leadership . . . Is there ANY reform happening… I sure would love to hear some good news about this…>>
I have not experienced any overbearing or aloof leadership in my time in SGM . . . about 6 years or so. Nor for that matter have I experienced very much spoken or unspoken legalism. (I hardly ever even hear “The C Word” — courtship — any more). I don’t doubt other posters’ negative experiences . . . it just hasn’t been my personal experience (glad to say).
Still, I think the SGM movement has got some serious weaknesses, and I hope that sites like this will encourage them to do some honest self-appraisal; that can only be good for everyone involved.
Phence-Sitter,
Thanks for responding. It is good to hear about your experience. As Jim use to say, it is not good to paint SGM with a broad brush. There are exceptions, as you have shown us. Perhaps those on the “inside” who do not use control to manipulate the members will address those SGM churches which do. That would be something worth seeing. God bless and keep you, Phence-Sitter. By the way, does your name mean you are in the process of rethinking your commitment to SGM? Just curious…
Phence Sitter,
For most of my many years within SGM I would have said the same things that you have said. In fact, for many years people in the community would tell me that SGC was a cult and my response was, “I have never seen any evidence of that.” Let me say, just because you have never seen any abuse, heavy handedness, cult like behavior, etc does not mean it is not there. People are treated very differently within the walls of SGM churches and not everyone will experience the negative. All the time that I thought things were wonderful, there were men and women being abused spiritually with heavy handedness, control and manipulation. While I thought I was in the best church in the world, there were those who thought they were going crazy because of the counseling they were receiving from the pastors. There is so much hidden and covered up in SGM churches that many will not see or experience the spiritual abuse, etc. My question is this: how can someone stay in a church when so many have expereienced the abuse, the control, the manipulation, etc, etc.?
Fred,
If I might make a point: you and I suffered abuse at the hands of controlling pastors. We saw it first hand. If Phence-Sitter has not seen first hand, we must accept that. The fact that he/she is reading the blog will make him/her more aware of his/her surroundings, more conscious of abusive pastoral behavior. That is a good thing. If indeed there are some SGM churches unaffected by control and legalism, we can hope that these folks, especially those reading the blogs, might be voices who call for reform for the churches which do abuse the authority. However, I would still be interested in why Phence-sitter is sitting on the fence. What does that mean? Phence-Sitter, could you elaborate? Thanks!
Also, in saying this Fred, I do not in any way mean to devalue your experience. Knowing a little about you, what happened between you and SGM pastors should NEVER have occurred. You are one more hero I can put into my book of heroes.
Fred: Everything you said, especially “While I thought I was in the best church in the world, there were those who thought they were going crazy because of the counseling they were receiving from the pastors.”
Canary, I always love your kind heart and encouraging words. Thank you! You have in no way devalued my experience! That being said, let me take this “conversation” one step further. Because I believe that the problem within SGM starts at the top with CJ and his “leaders”, I totally and completely believe that ALL and I do mean ALL and EVERY church affiliated with SGM has the same problems. The polity within every church is the same, the doctrines are the same, and the leadership operate within the system in the same way. Personalities within leadership are obviously different so there will be variablity in this area.
My point to phence sitter is this: just because you have not seen these things and just because you have not experienced them, does not mean they are not within that church. For years, I did not see nor had I experienced the abuse, control, manipulation, etc. However, the truth is that I WAS being controlled and manipulated through subtle powers of darkness including wrong doctrine and a counterfeit Jesus Christ and a counterfeit Christianity. I was totally unaware of this until God in His mercy removed the veil and allowed me to see the Truth. The deception is across the board in SGM churches!
I agree, Canary’s heart is precious in the sight of God and all loving people!
Fred, I agree with what you’re saying that the problem starts at the top and works its way down, and certainly no SGM church is completely immune.
But I do want to add that some SGM churches are not full on SGM. What I mean to say is that I’ve heard of many that say yes to their SGM leaders faces, then do things their own way behind their backs. There are even a few that I know personally who think that most SGM top leaders are a bit nuts and so the pastors of the churches who think that decide they’ll take the “good stuff” (which sadly still gets affected by leaven) and reject what they themselves think is downright nutty.
In some ways that smacks of some really bad integrity but in other ways they are doing what they believe to be right before God and their churches. So that I respect. (Can’t help but admit, it’s kind of funny the things they have said about the SGM bigwigs.)
Fred,
Well said. The leaven of SGM Polity is……..leaven…….it is in the WHOLE batch.. It is like a pollution—breathed in by all who become a part of it. However, congregants (we were one too) become so gradually accustomed to it– they cannot identify it. Thus, God has unveiled the leaven through the revealings of the EVIDENCES of destruction throughout the ailing SGM body. From the ‘rooftops’, via satellite, the internet has shattered the darkness and control of SGM Polity by bringing forth the testimonies of God’s people who have been wounded, assaulted, maligned and undermined. Speaking the stories/testimonies is a conduit of Light to shatter the dark. This IS Gods mercy for you, SGM. Light is shown so you will SEE.
SOVEREIGN GRACE MINISTRIES:
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THOSE WHO HAVE BROUGHT YOU GODS WORD?
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THOSE WHO HAVE UNVEILED THE UNFRUITFUL AND DESTRUCTIVE DEEDS OF DARKNESS?????
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, EVEN TO THOSE WHOM GOD HAS SENT AS A PROPHET IN YOUR MIDST??????
It is known, that to the prophets God has sent you you have:
In your ‘meetings’, encircled them as the Bulls of Bashan, opening wide your mouths at them, like a ravening and roaring lion (PS 22:12-13). It is God’s mercy that He avail truth to you through those He has raised up among you.
You have Lorded over them and charged them with sin. You plug your ears to the voices God has sent you to unveil deceptions and leaven within your midst — you herald a trumpet for your SGM structure, drownding out the ALARM the Lord God is trumpeting. Whom will you serve? Your conferences? Your books? Your polity? Your structure? Defending yourself — or bowing your knee to the mercy of God?
I see what you are saying, Fred. When the Lord spoke of leaven, he said it must all be purged. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. So you do not see individual SGM churches as having their own personality/freedom to be different as long as they are obligated to the SGM machine.
I wouldn’t be the person I am today with out some of what PDI taught me, without the care given to me in the early days before the control took over. I have to admit that. Yet, I watched as the leaven grew and became so harmful to others. When the leaven is small, it is easy to overlook. We Canarys watched it grow until all grace is squeezed out of the dough. The damage it did to our lives took years to overcome.
So perhaps phence sitter is in a position of not seeing the leaven, or perhaps it has yet to show itself.
Stunned, you are too sweet!
Waters said, “You have Lorded over them and charged them with sin.”
Beautifully spoken, Waters.
Stunned, so why do these pastors stay within the confines of the SGM machine? I do agree that this appears to be an issue of integrity and lack of character! Might I even add, sounds a bit cowardly or as SGM speak would say, “Is this a fear of man issue?” Where are the valiant mighty men of God who stand for Truth, who stand for righteousness, who stand for the weak and lowly? Mighty men of God who are girded in the Lord Jesus Christ, covered in the full armor of God, ready for battle! Where are you? We know where many of them are for we have seen them standing for Truth in Richmond (Kingsway), Chesapeake, Fairfax, Denver, etc. And guess what, they are not all men for many are mighty women of God, prepared for battle, taking stands for Truth and sacrificing their very lives, comforts, and relationships for the call of God!
Stunned, I am deeply sobered. Many opportunities have been brought to SGM leadership to enable them to see the destructiveness of their polity and the mauling
of Gods people at the hands of some pastors,apostle,overseers,CEO’s..
It is a frightening thing to NOT be able to hear Gods warnings…or to choose not to…
Fred, I have often wondered the same—-WHERE are the mighty men of God?
Why have we seen only handfuls stand up and take courage and enter the fight when upheavals occur within SGM? Could it be that we have all been so steam-rolled, it has become normal to remain asleep? But God. Greater is HE Who LIVES in us than the enemy who is upon the earth……There is a shaking….God is shaking and sifting…
Praying strongholds will be broken, veils will be ripped off, and those within SGM will be set free from the snare of the fowler.
Yes, Fred, I am honored to know women who have stood before the accusers of the Brethren and spoken truth….there is a cost, as you state……..but, oh, to walk and stand for Gods Truth in a battle– there is the experience of soldiering with the King of Glory, Who is mighty in battle! And many of the posters here,have come toe-to-toe with the arrogant attempts of control and manipulation from SGM leaders—and confronted and stepped out of their snare — Jesus the Christ is our refuge and strong-tower!
Fred, I have absolutely no idea why they stay. I am guessing that they stay for the same reasons I was attracted to my SGM church. There is some good stuff in there. I can think of many positives of SGM. I assume that they reason that they can take the good and leave the bad behind.
Who knows if SGM can really keep their hands off churches for long, though. We all have heard the stories of the churhces that have come under the SGM umbrella only to have their beloved pastor tossed in the trash heap and have a young unknown from Pastor’s College put in his place.
Hi All,
Didn’t mean to open a can of worms; just wanted to answer Canary’s original question (post #24 above). Again, I’m not interested in defending SGM. I have a couple of observations though.
1. From my admittedly limited vantage point, I believe that not all SGM churches operate the same nor do they have identical doctrine. I think a lot of people in the rank-and-file think that they do. This isn’t helped by the fact that many people, including SG pastors, say things like “Oh, you have to move to Smithville for a job transfer? No worries, there’s an SGM church in Smithville”. I used to think this way, too; I no longer do.
2. If my pastors were dangerously controlling, I likely would have experienced that first hand by now. I’ve been very open with them about what I perceive to be doctrinal weaknesses in our church, and they have met with me many times over coffee to listen and dialogue with me about those issues. In many ways, I am the proverbial “Burr under their saddle”. It would have been really easy for them to suggest I “move on” or something to that effect . . . but they haven’t. To be sure, we definitely see some significant things differently, but they have been gracious and kind toward me in our conversations. Again, I’m not defending any other pastor or church . . . I’m just telling you of my experience.
If my pastors were proud, arrogant men I would not be sitting on the fence about my local assembly; I would have moved on long ago. But my pastors are decent men — friends even — and I’ve watched them make great sacrifices to love people. In the words of Dave Mason:
There ain’t no good guy
There ain’t no bad guy
There’s only you and me
And we just disagree (about how some of the doctrine plays itself out)
3. With regard to the aforementioned “doctrinal weaknesses”, here are my thoughts:
- The gospel and the cross are not synonyms. I’ve found that many SGM pastors and congregants use the words as if they are indeed perfectly synonymous. While I would say that the cross is at the center of God’s redemptive work for us, it’s the means, not the end, to our new life with God. God purchased us — at unfathomable cost to Himself — for a reason: to walk with Him in newness of life. I don’t disagree that justification is amazing . . . but the “Good News” includes more than justification.
- There is, in my opinion, an out-of-balance focus and emphasis on the power of indwelling sin. So much time is spent developing this concept that there’s less time left to teach about the power of our union with Christ. Also, I don’t remember the last time any one even mentioned the Satanic side of our very real battle with sin. I’m not sure why that is . . . maybe an over reaction to past excesses in the PDI/SGM storyline.
I don’t bring up these points just to be a theological nitpicker; these perspectives played a role in inadvertently hobbling the faith of my wife. I watched first-hand as her hope in God and her confidence in her walk with her Lord evaporated in the presence of what I described above. She is currently in the process of rebuilding her walk with the Lord, and she’s getting better and better each day. Still, she’s understandably leery about trusting anything related to SGM.
This has been my experience, and since I believe there is a spectrum of practice in SGM churches, these may — or may not — be relevant issues in every local congregation. If you are lurking on this blog trying to get a sense of SGM theology and practice, I would encourage you not to assume anything . . . ask specific questions of the pastors in your locality. Do your homework! The Statement of Faith on the SGM website is not sufficient to tell you how any given SGM church will function in real-world practice. One example of this would be a local church’s understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
When I consider the many relationships that we’re deeply invested in at our church, the ministries that we’re part of, the dread of “church shopping”, the desire not to quench our child’s very real faith in God (he loves our church!), you can see what a difficult position we are in. Coupled with all of that, I am typically an optimist, so I have hope that things that are out of balance can get better. SGM has a history of change (understatement of the day!), so I’m hoping for a change in the right direction. I also will continue to pray for all the leaders . . . but especially for my pastors.
I write these things not to rant or whine, but to ultimately serve anyone who, like my wife, is trying to figure out why their time at an SGM church may not have gone down so well. If you have a similar story to her’s, reading this may be enough to help you say “Hey! I’m not necessarily crazy after all!” If that helps any brother or sister then I am glad that I took the time to write this post.
Wow, Phence-Sitter, great post. Very good clarity in explaining your thoughts.
Sounds like you and your wife are in the same position my husband and I were over 13 years ago, shortly before leaving what was then PDI. Mr. Canary could have gone on within the church we attended. He began to see how the indwelling sin teaching effected my faith and my ability to walk in grace. His eyes were opened as he sought for the reasons why I did better away from PDI than when I attended meetings. Unfortunately, his questions about the focus on sin and the cross without speaking of Jesus (that wonderful name was hardly mentioned) were not received well by leadership. That is when we realized how controlling everything had gotten. We could not longer remain without loosing what faith we had. We literally ran for our spiritual lives, leaving behind several pastors who had no desire to pursue us or understand us. We were just a nasty problem that “went away”, which is how it seemed they treated any member who challenged their leadership.
Do you mind if I ask a question? How can your wife’s faith be rebuilt if she remains under the same teachings that caused her struggles? Have your pastors, who you say listen to your input, changed anything in the way they teach? Does the focus remain on indwelling sin? Do you see new life coming into your church because the grace of God is filling its members and they are able to spread the good news to their neighbors? Really, I’m not prying. I just want to understand how your experience is any different than others’ here, except that you say your pastors love and listen. In the beginning, our pastors seemed to do the same. Thank you for answering my questions. You certainly are not opening a can of worms but promoting discussion from a different perspective. There are many reading here who are probably in your position. They, too, are sitting on the fence. God bless!
Phence Sitter, thanks so much for sharing your family’s experience. My heart goes out to your wife. It is heartbreaking to read these words, “these perspectives played a role in inadvertently hobbling the faith of my wife.”
Hobbling. What a tragic and powerful word. I pray for her that she will get fed the pure word of God and that God’s grace and love and healing are poured out on her.
“I watched first-hand as her hope in God and her confidence in her walk with her Lord evaporated in the presence of what I described above.”
After seeing what you wrote, I can’t help but ask WHY she is in that presence then? I mean, WHY would you not love her enough to get her away from something that is so clearly toxic for her? I get the dread of church shopping. But I have to tell you, I have found life in so many places that I didn’t expect it. And the fact that your son loves the church? Well, I gotta admit, it kinda scares me. I want my kids to love God, not the church. People, but not just the church.
I started writing here just to tell you how much I appreciate you writing and that I agreed with so much of what you said. (I think you’re right that the churches can be really different from one another. And I think it’s great that you have been able to speak to your pastor about differences and that he respects you and talks with you about it.) But I just had to say that I don’t think you realize how chilling your words were. I’m not saying don’t pray about- clearly always pray about it, but dude, your wife was debilitated in her relationship with God. What the heck else is important that would keep you anywhere on earth where this was happening?
Sorry, I know I am coming across cruelly. I’m really not wanting to. I just worry that you’re not really valuing this woman or what she has suffered. She, herself, is probably too hurt to even see it at this point. At least for a year, get her and your family outta there. If after a year, she is well enough to go back and ya’ll wanna go, go. But, man, get them out now. What in the world could be as important as to make her sit under the same kind of teaching that harmed her relationship with the God of all creation.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to stand before God some day for that one.
Phence-sitter,
Please consider the words of Stunned and Canary. Hopefully I can add a word or two. Don’t stay because your child loves it there. A child doesn’t understand the complexities of the issues. Sure there are friends to think of and your child will miss them. But consider this: We felt the same way and now our 19 yr old and 22 yr old won’t consider going to church! We were in our sgm church 21+ yrs. Our kids seemed to thrive until they could really process what was going on. Now they are having a serious crisis of faith because they are not sure what to believe. They were “model” sgm kids but now… after their eyes were opened…they can’t shake the words and actions that were drummed into them.
Why stay if your adult wife’s faith was shaken? Get out while your child is young and can be saved from the insidious hogwash they teach.
Phence Sitter
Just adding my words of support to what the others have said. I am thankful my husband finally consented to leave our SGM church after several years there. It was months after I would have liked, but he did it and we are much better off. One of my adult children has stayed there. It is still going to take me a while to shake all of this off. It is still hard for me to walk in grace and not condemnation. It is difficult for me to really experience the love of God as Father. I am getting there, slowly. I don’t want to go back. Please, for your family’s sake, get your wife to a place where she can heal and grow. That is leading a family well.
I think it is difficult to impossible for a man to understand the pressure women face in this system and the extent of damage done to her spirit when she doesn’t fit the standard for womenhood that these men have artificially created.
Stunned is right in my opinion.
We had an experience with a SGM church which, mercifully for the host city, ultimately failed. Like many of you, I could write a book about it. The sense of entitlement, presumptuousness, the errant and downright juvenile teachings, invasion of privacy, picking of favorites, shunning of those that were not “beautiful people“, special favor given to those who earned big salaries, etc. was stunning. There seemed to be two “camps” of people in the church; those who could see what was happening (and were praying that they were wrong), and those who apparently were completely blind to it. Gentle efforts to correct the problems in the church were met with harsh rebuke. When the whistle was (finally) blown on the pastor AND his wife for the abuse they heaped upon members of the flock, the overseeing pastor (from out of town) proceeded to place the responsibility and fault with everyone BUT the pastor and his wife. He violated EVERY confidence that was placed in him and justified it with scripture. The experience was unbelievable. A few of the most “violated” people in the process somehow were drawn back in for more abuse before ultimately escaping the bonds of SGM.
Here’s my take on SGM based on that experience and other observations over the years. SGM may not be a cult, but it certainly has a LOT of cult-like practices, and their accountability mechanisms for leadership are not designed to be taken seriously and therefore completely ineffective. I believe that God will hold the people in leadership of SGM accountable for what appears to be a disingenuous and self-serving approach to the Body of Christ.
God has used that experience in our lives to prepare us to help others that have been hurt by these type ministries. We are now in a solid Scripture-centered church, that has a true understanding of grace and Christian community. God is good!
Substratum,
Thankyou for posting and sharing your experience and insights. Your testimony is congruent with so many others.
We rejoice with you that you are o u t and in a solid Scripture-centered Body of Believers. Yes, God IS good!
God has used that experience in our lives to prepare us to help others that have been hurt by these type ministries.
Many of us feel the same way. It has given us hope to help others, like out time in PDI/SGM was not completely wasted. Thanks, Substratum, for sharing your experience.
I felt that I needed to share my story about being involved in what I now consider a spiritually abusive church. I apologize for the length of this post. My reason for sharing this story is in hopes to shed light for others who have attended or are still attending the church that I went to not long ago. My story isn’t as harrowing or shocking as others, but it had a strong effect on my life. I have also become aware of other abusive situations that have occurred in this church which have effected my neighbor and her boyfriend, her friends, my friends who had left a year before me, and many others.
I grew up in a Christian home. My father was a PK and his father a pastor for over 30 years. Attending church was a normal thing to do. When I was in college, nearly nine years ago, I met my roommate who introduced me to his Church located in Williston, Vermont. A reformed, conservative fundamentalist church associated with Sovereign Grace Ministries and Converge Worldwide. On occasion I visited and was impressed with the zeal of the sermons and the fellowship among the body of believers. I did struggle for some time with their teaching on election and pre-destination. However, after several years of this indoctrination, I began believing that message. I still do today. Even though I am not against the doctrine of election, the fact that I was indoctrinated into that belief, also gave me the impression that what was being preached at this church must be right.
Almost three years ago I moved up to Burlington, Vermont after I was offered a job in the area. I began attending this church on a regular basis. I found my “place in life” as did my old college friends who moved into town as well. Friends, who like me, were taught what I was. (Most of them believed they were never saved until around the time they started attending.) It was a very exciting time for me. There were many young adults my age who were excited about God and His kingdom. There were so many activities that I could be involved in. I began making so many friends. Everyone I met was very kind and welcoming.
As time went on I became more and more involved in the church. Friday mornings at 6:30 I was the first one at men’s prayer. Tuesdays and thursdays we had home group meetings. In the summers on wednesdays there was wednesday night gathering. Tuesdays at 6:00 AM we had LDI – Leadership Development Institute – geared for young men like me to lead the church. Not to mention the young adult groups and gatherings going on the rest of the week. I found that I was busier with the church than I was at work. Eventually I had very little time for myself. My life revolved around this group.
Their teachings were very rigid. Black and white thinking. I was aware of this, but I believed that if they were right about predestination, then these other uncomfortable doctrines must contain truth. Of course I should accept them. They preached that their church was a cornerstone in theology. They taught they were the crem dela crem of biblical teaching around. No one really preached the gospel, only they knew what the bible really says. The pastor would receive letters from other churches calling him to repent. He bragged about the “cruel” letters and claimed that he was standing firm for the gospel. Of course we all believed him. What this does is it makes the members believe that if they were to leave the church, they would be “less informed” or less of a christian. So people stay put. I even began thinking that every other church had their heads in the clouds.
Last May the young adults attended the NEXT Conference lead by Joshua Harris in Baltimore, Maryland. I was impressed by Kevin DeYoung’s sermons and so were my other friends who heard him preach. One morning at LDI my roommate had made mention to the pastor how he thought Kevin DeYoung was a great theologian. The pastor barked at my roommate in front of 20 young men and scolded him for calling Kevin DeYoung a great theologian and corrected his way of thinking. This bothered me since it was my roommate’s opinion, whether true or not, he is entitled to think so. He even went to the pastor after the meeting and apologized for his “ignorance.” The next LDI meeting all the pastor did was demolish the character of Kevin DeYoung.
About a year ago I took interest in this girl. (I would first like to say, I do not mean to direct any negative attention towards this young woman. She clearly has a desire to honor the Lord and serve Him. I am merely portraying the facts) I started going over to visit her on a regular basis. This was easy to do since we both lived in a condo development purchased by the church to equip its members for the ministry. I began asking around what others had thought of her. I heard nothing but positive reports. I was however, concerned in some areas. This church had supported Joshua Harris’ book, as we all know “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.” My concern lied in the area that this girl expected nothing less than a match made in heaven and her extremely high expectations, but I felt up to the challenge. Not only that, she had embraced everything that JH said in his book almost as gospel truth. After some time thinking, I made my move and asked her out. After our first date, she approached me the next day very concerned. She said that by me asking her out, it may as well have been a marriage proposal. I calmed her down a bit, we talked, and she agreed to continue the relationship, but she was still somewhat hesitant because she said she did not know me that well.
After our second date she requested that we both start talking to an elder about dating advice. I almost laughed but reluctantly agreed. I started talking to my college roommate’s father, an elder, whose approach to dating I thought was a little absurd. Such advice came as, “don’t start having feelings for her until there is a ring on the finger.”, “nothing good happens after 11:00.”, “You should date in groups.”, and “You should want to marry someone who is excited about the kingdom.” I was utterly confused to say the least.
By the third week into the relationship I was approached by the pastor who mentioned that he knew we were dating and he’d like to meet some time. I agreed. I was somewhat confounded how he knew that she and I were dating less than three weeks in, especially since the only person I told we were dating was the elder I was seeking “advice” from.
Before this I had never met the pastor and I expected to hear him talk about what it meant to be in a relationship and how it should be kept pure and so on. I assumed it was normal for a pastor to get involved in relationships in the church. I was somewhat naïve. Later on that week I got off work early and went to the pastor’s office. He brought with him another elder who had been trying to get me to become a member for some time. When he opened his mouth, I heard nothing but condemnation from his lips. My confidence was thrown to the floor. He began questioning how I am saved, looking for evidence of my salvation in areas of works-righteousness. He then began saying that he knew exactly what the Bible says and questioning him would cause problems. He raised his hand and said, “she is on this level,” he then lowered his hand to the ground and said, “this is where you are. She is going to appreciate a man who is involved in the church and there is no evidence of your involvement.” He said that there was no way he would allow me to continue in a relationship with her unless I became a member. I did not want to be a member because I knew when you did, you surrendered your life to the leadership of the church and questioning them only brought trouble. The pastor checked up on my tithing records and noticed that I did not tithe the previous month. He asked why. When I shared with him that I had been supporting a missions couple in Africa, he scolded me for not committing it to their church instead. He accused me of having a heart that desired money. If he really knew me, he would know that money is the last thing on my heart. He even said that I needed to set aside my student loan debt until after I’ve tithed. Eventually what came out of this meeting was being compelled to tithe more to the church. Other than my frightfully low self esteem. I received no encouragement whatsoever. At this point I couldn’t even look this girl in the eyes or act normal around her I was so shot. I even began telling her that I wasn’t good enough for her.
Then he wanted to schedule another meeting. I wasn’t sure what to expect. This time he claimed that she called his office and said she wanted to meet with him because she was concerned about my involvement in the church. After asking her about this later, she implied that she scheduled a meeting because we had been dating for over a month and thought it was the right thing to do. She mentioned nothing about her concern for my “lack” of involvement. Now I’m really confused. What is going on? Why am I being singled out? How am I not involved? Why has this not happened to any of my other friends and only me? I thought I was doing the right thing by being active within the church. Maybe God just wants me to do better?
I was backed into a corner and had my feathers ruffled. This pastor knew that he had leverage over me to get me to do what he wanted otherwise he would call off the relationship and she wouldn’t question his leadership. Unfortunately the abuse did not end there. I called my parents, talked to my co-workers about what was going on. They were all convinced that I was in a cult. I argued with that statement. The word “cult” seemed a little harsh, and I was too smart to be involved in such a group. “No no no,” I said. “They are just trying to look out after my own good. They just wanted to see if I had a ‘teachable spirit’.”
Nearly three months went by before she ended the relationship. Out of the blue and for little to no reason. At this point I had enough of the garbage and how I was treated by the leaders at this church and decided to step back from attendance for a while. That may have been the best thing I did. One elder kept calling me saying he as “concerned” and would like to meet. I was still a little messed up in the head. Confused. Not sure where to turn. I agreed. Again, for three more meetings, the abuse continued. I was never encouraged, only condemned. He started telling me things like, “How can I say to you ‘well done good and faithful servant’?”, “I can’t think of anything good to say about you!”, and “I don’t see how any woman could ever be interested in you.”
That was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I was never so hurt and enraged in my entire life. The very next day after the last meeting, the elder called me at work and said that he knew I was upset with the pastor. He wanted me to meet him that day if possible to mete things out. Right now I’m about to blow a gasket. I want to do the right thing and honor the Lord, but when it comes to cults and spiritually abusive systems, Matthew 18 has NO effect whatsoever. It is only a tool to cover the damage and justify themselves. I called my grandmother, a wife of a pastor for over 30 years. I told her my story and she immediately identified this church as exhibiting cult-like tendencies. At that point I had made my decision to run.
Even still, I was harassed by the church. I sent an email to the church office requesting that I be taken off the mailing list since I was no longer attending. The next day like clockwork I received a personal email from the pastor who attempted to justify himself and wanted to meet. He claimed he never said one thing to this girl that would have ended the relationship. He said it was 100% her decision to end it. What that did was turn my frustration from him to her. I responded to the pastor telling him what I thought about the church and why I was leaving. I became angry with my ex and refused to even talk to her. I avoided her and became cold and distant. Eventually I realized what had transpired. In an attempt to apologize to her, I went over to her place. She remarked that she had been praying for some time that we’d become friends again. I asked if she would be willing to meet later in the week, some place public to discuss what had taken place. She was willing and didn’t seem uneasy by the intention. The night before we were to meet, she calls me frantically and accuses me somewhat harshly of being involved in “sinful gossip.” I told her I took the first step of Matthew 18 and insinuated that the leaders there are only interested in their own agenda. She quickly hung up and then refused to talk to me. I almost laughed. I knew someone had gotten to her.
When I left that church, my friends went with it. Based on what I know about this group, I speculate the leadership has kept quiet about abuse of the pastor. Either way, the result is always the same: those who left are treated as the problem and the leaders are justified.
Ever since then, I’ve thought that maybe I was crazy for thinking that this church was abusive. I thought that perhaps I’m the one with the problem and it was an isolated incident. This all happened seven months ago and It wasn’t until recently that I had discovered the line of people who came out of that church battered and bruised. If I was angry before, I was angrier now. Everyone who was abused was told not to tell anybody what’s happened. I wish to fight for those who have been hurt. I want to help them and remind them of Christ and His atoning work for salvation on the cross by faith alone!! Not by anything they can or ever will do!
The church that I attended was Christ Memorial Church of Williston, Vermont. I choose to reveal this name so that those who wish to find anything regarding that church will not only find the positive comments on the church’s website, but the harsh reality of what really goes on behind the scenes. If I had not known that I was not the only person to have been abused by this church, I would not be sharing my story.
My friend who has been a great help to me over the past couple months, had experienced abuse from this church introduced me to sgmrefuge and sgmsurvivors. I can’t tell you how encouraged I’ve been in hearing how others have fought the system and those who have overcome and moved on for the better. These sites, as well as my friends who have had traumatizing experiences with this SGM have described to me the reality of the abuse going on that I thought only I had experienced. Thank you for the work that you do. May God bless!
ByFaithAlone,
Welcome, welcome! I am so sorry to hear of your experience. Yet, to have the courage to come here and tell it will help others. That is a great thing. I am sorry to say that I was nodding a lot as I read your post. Yep, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, sold it at a garage sale, and never will wear one like it again! You are free, B.F.A. You are free to follow Jesus. This is a time to rejoice! God will work out all the details of healing from your church experience as you walk closely with Him. Many of us can say how great, good, and loving our God has been as he has helped us work through our own post-controlling church experiences. There is hope!
Welcome, ByFaithAlone! Thank you for sharing your story — as painful as it is. I’ve been reading the New Yorker’s story about Scientology — and it’s sounding way too familiar as well.
ByFaithAlone,
I am grieved to hear of your experience. I took some time to look over some of Wes Pastors stuff, as well as the church you were a part of. Phrases like, “Preaching the true gospel, A good soldier for Christ, a worker, and my favorite, the Art of Sinless Anger,” all have the shepherding/abusive red flags that one should run from.
These types of men are careless with the flock as typically they are looking to build their church, rather than God’s kingdom. (Which they see as one in the same) That is why your salvation is tied to “membership.”
Not the way God intends, nor what Christ came for. Stay strong in the truth, he alone is sufficient as an example and guide.
this site may be helpfull as well http://ikdg.wordpress.com/
Dear ByFaithALone,
When I read your story, I think of PS 16:1-
“Preserve me, O God, for in you I take refuge.
I say to the Lord ‘You are my Lord, I have no good apart from you.’”
The Lord preserved you, ByFaithAlone, in the midst of strangling harrowing events, He preserved you……and He quickly opened your eyes to see. I thank God for the quick and keen discernment of your grandmothers words to you and that your ears listened—you have stepped OUT of the snare and we rejoice watching your steps of liberty in Christ!
We are becoming more aware of this insidious control which is seeping into the churches—–seeking to capture Christians who genuinely carry a desire to serve the Lord and follow after Him. By stealth, eyes and hearts are progressively turned onto ‘leaders’ instead of our true Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ. -What you have testified of, ByFaithAlone, is extremely important, uncovering another segment of destructive control bringing Gods own into bondage. Thankyou for writing — the Lord continues to “shatter the darkness” by uncovering these vestiges of evil control— we overcome, by the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony!
I praise God for your courage to fight the good fight of faith when you state: “I wish to fight for those who have been hurt. I want to help them and remind them of Christ and His atoning work for salvation on the cross by faith alone!!”
Along with you, we are keeping our eyes on Jesus, The Author and Finisher of our Faith!
—- Waters
Hi, ByFaithAlone, welcome brother. I’m so sad to read your story. Wanted to remind you again what you already know now. You are NOT alone in what you have experienced.
Thanks for having the courage to share your story here. I have no doubt that many people will read it and find healing in it.
Best,
Stunned
ByFaithAlone,
What an incredible testimony! My friend Dee and I started a blog (http://www.thewartburgwatch.com) almost two years ago, and our primary focus is spiritual abuse. You may find some of our posts beneficial given what you have experienced.
Both of us were Southern Baptists, but we chose to leave the denomination when we began discovering what the Reformed SBC crowd is up to. Yours is a powerful testimony that now doesn’t surprise us in the least. We would like to do a post based on your experience. Could you please contact me at deb@thewartburgwatch.com ?
I am grateful that you grandmother and others gave you such godly advice to leave what certainly sounds like a spiritually abusive church. May you find peace and help others along the way.
By Faith Alone
I would also like to say that I was sorry to hear you story. I am the owner of the blog Unassimilated mentioned. (Thanks Unassimilated)
I hope the thoughts I have shared on my blog help. It is sad when you see so many groups blindly following the “kissing dating goodbye” mentality without even thinking it through or recognizing the problems it creates. It was something that worked for one person who was a teenager at the time. Why people seem to assume that what worked for Harris applies to all people.
There were even problems that Harris acknowledged in how singles relate at CLC but has been silent about mentioning this issue where a lot of people could know about it and learn. Harris is quick to point out the problems he sees with dating but silent about the problems his approach has caused.
Thank you all for your kind words and encouraging responses. I am thankful that the Lord has been so kind by reminding us of our freedom in Christ.
As I cruised through some of the older testimonies in this section I couldn’t help but recognize a pattern of exiters who had pastors spread lies about them after leaving. I believe this is happening to me as well. I’ve had my old college roommate call me out on my “sin of not attending church”, and more recently, my ex remarked to me that she has been praying that I would “seek the Lord and return to CMC.” I find it interesting that they came to this conclusion since neither have been given evidence that I am or am not seeking the Lord. This is simply not true! My love for the Lord has only grown and I have renewed my faith in Him!
As saddened as I am by hearing others’ experiences, I grieve also for those who are kept under the yolk of these modern day Pharisees who are led to believe that they must submit to their false spiritual authority which inevitably and often unknowingly to them, turns their gaze off Christ. But I thank the Lord that he has redirected our focus to Christ for hope of salvation as he is worthy, and I pray every day for eyes to be opened.
Thank you all for your most encouraging words to me on the thread about the Chesapeake church where I first posted yesterday. I hope to write again soon but am still trying to absorb so much of this (which is ringing true). Didn’t want to detract from the dialogue on Chesapeake so I moved over to this thread; hope that’s not too confusing. I’m quite a rookie at this blogging thing. Thank you again for your kindness.
Blue Sky, you’re doing great. Take your time and don’t feel any pressure but we do welcome your story when you are ready.
Blue Sky, Just saw your post on this thread–I’m sorry, I welcomed you on the Chesapeake thread– but know we hear you and love you… and rejoice with you as you are stepping into His lighted path by the truths of His Word……..
I was amazed when I stumbled upon this website. I am a former member of CLC and while I assumed many felt like I do, I had no idea that people had banded together. My experience there was basically my teenage years. My family became deeply embedded in the church where we attended the youth ministry, care group, CLS, and Sunday worship. I met some incredible people who I am grateful to still call friends today. I am most grateful for the fact that I became a christian at CLC and will never regret my time there. I am stronger today because of my journey. I am also profoundly thankful to have met my husband there. We are celebrating our 8th wedding anniversary this year and enjoying our two beautiful little girls. It is my girls that I think about though when CLC comes to mind. I could never let them go to a place that could hurt and confusion them in some many ways that I experienced.
My parents would receive phone calls after church from other parents explaining that my sister and I were stumbling blocks due to our clothing or due to our discussions with other teens about activities we did with our parents approval that were not approved by other parents (ie dating, music choices, up coming social events). As time went on, my parents tried to play the game of the inner circle and they cracked down on our lifestyle. I was living with my biological mom at the time and my step mom and dad found out that I started dating this guy from my CLS class (my husband now). Knowing how the church frowned on this, they sought counsel from their care group leader, my care group leader, and their pastor. They all came to the decision that for me to really be the christian that I claimed to be, I would need to move out of my Mom’s house and move in permanently with my dad and Step mom. I have memories that I will never forget about writing my biological mom a letter on my 16th birthday telling her that “God told me to move out of her house in order to be a better christian.” The next year went fine because all the people that I spent time with at the Church approved of my new living situation and I was even allowed to maintain a friendship with the classmate that I tried to date under the supervision of both his parents and my own.
Unfortunately, some of my female classmates did not approve and our relationship was constantly under pressure from the church and the school. We were finally told we would not graduate if we did not severe all ties. In a class of 16, that was pretty tough. I ended up dealing with severe depression and suicidal situations that were dismissed by pastors as more evidence of my sin and lack of faith. I moved back in with my mom and tried to fly below the radar until graduation. Miraculously, my now husband and I both made it through. Were lost most of our friends in the process and were left questioning the church, our parents, and organized religion in general.
During some of my roughest times at the church, I was gratefully transitioning in to my college phase and I choose to go out of state to a Christian college. It is by the Grace of God that I was able to go to an amazing Christian college that allowed me to see that Christians came in all different shapes and sizes. It was funny at first because I instinctively name dropped about CLC, CLS, and Joshua Harris to anyone that would listen. I soon realized that no one knew who what I was talking about and both the students and teachers where more interested in studying the bible and great preachers instead. I am also grateful for the college experience I had because my family that did stay in the area and simply left ( AKA got asked to leave ) had a much longer road to recovery. They also still harbor a lot of bitterness and resentment.
My predicament is that I have never found a church home since I moved back to the area. I remind myself all the time that there is no perfect church and that I need to balance my criteria when searching. I just don’t want to plug my family in to a church and dive in to all the different ministries with out knowing that my girls will be nurtured and loved truly by a church community. I want them to experience having a group of kids that they grow up with through their church activities with out legalism or fear. I would also love to meet a group of parents that I can share life’s blessings and burdens with while not fearing their judgement or interference in my families well being. Does anyone have any advice about churches in the Montgomery County area that offer a mixture between informative and lively Sunday meetings, as well as, small group and family activities for people of all ages? I appreciate the help and I thank you for helping those that have posted so far through your kind words and prayers.
Hi, Recovered, there are a number of good churches here in MoCo which is, of course, a pretty big place. Do some shopping/visiting/praying — and enter into community life. In general, churches are going to love your kids and you’re going to find little judgement/interference a la CLC (though, of course, parents do tend to question each other’s parenting choices — most don’t feel the Lord’s prompting to CONFRONT every little decision). I spent time investigating websites — I knew what I wanted and didn’t want (No CBMW, for me, for instance).
Are you living close to CLC? I visited and liked Journey’s Crossing which used to meet at Rio and just moved to Seneca Valley. There are quite a few ex-CLCers at Redeemer, Redland Baptist, 4th Pres, and more. I’m happy at Church of the Ascension — an Episcopal Church (but still a little gunshy — I stay mostly on the edge, except for being a reader at the 5 pm Come as You Are service — some CLC folks have visited me there).
I’d love to talk with you, if you like.
Anne CLC 1986-2007
Recovered but still incomplete, You are an exceptional woman who has followed the Lord where HE has led you. He has been with you all this time…guiding you , directing you and loving you with HIS everlasting love. How fortunate you are! HE will continue to guide you even if you can’t find someplace to attend—–you will be OK. HE is FAITHFUL-just look back on your life-how could you doubt that. When i read your post above I could see how HE has guided you. And HE will continue to lead you in HIS paths for the sake of HIS NAME.
Your story is like so many that aren’t told but need to be. You are OK and must be very happy to be where you are today! You are an overcomer.
Recovered, Welcome into Refuge! Thankyou for writing and sharing your story and journey….
Thankyou, Acme, for personally reaching out.
And thankyou, OldTimer, for wonderful encouragement for our sister—and all of us!
I love watching the Body of Christ exemplify the loving care of our Jesus……..
Recovered, welcome! I am saddened to hear about all the pain you endured and all the confusion and condemnation that was heaped on you. I am glad to hear that you are no longer subjected to those voices on a daily basis, though, I wouldn’t be surprised if the recording of their voices still plays in your head on a daily basis to some extent. That was such a vulnerable and impressionable age when you were exposed to that crazy making. I hope things work out for you.
Yes, there are churches when people who don’t love you pretend that they do and then beat you up for what they see on the outer without understanding of the inner. In fact, in most ‘normal’ churches, having others tell you what to do is considered weird. In a healthy church the comment, “That shirt is worldly” is never uttered. Never. In most healthy places people show respect to each other and to the Holy Spirit. There are going to be plenty of problems but in a healthy church, not one where parents are calling each other to say the things that were said to your parents. That is known as bizarre.
Thank you for taking the time to share your story here, Recovered.
Stunned
Thank you all for your greetings and prayers!
Anne, I remember when you got married and was so sorry to hear of your heart-breaking story. Am glad that God has been your strength in the situation and I pray for a continual outpouring of His love on you.
30years, are you still at CLC? I agree, it is easy to draw different conclusions because the experiences can vary so greatly. Unless you experience the abuse or witness it up close and personal with loved ones, it is difficult for those so entrenched in SGM to accept that it’s there. I was an undiscerning kool-aid drinker myself for many years.
Freedom Fighter, Canary, and Stunned, your welcoming words bring comfort, thank you for being so kind and gracious.
Blues0080, I remember well when the Engles moved west from CLC and how sad we were in missing them. Thank you for the prayers of healing. I’m glad to hear you’re in a new place where there is freedom and grace.
Fred, you raised a provoking question – why am I still in a SGM church? I am grappling with that as my eyes are being opened to see how widespread and endemic the patterns of abuse have been and the serious faults in the foundation. Please pray for God to show me the next steps.
Waters, I have read and re-read your post many times. Like your name, your words are like a cool spring of refreshing water to me in a desert land. Thank you for speaking to me so directly. I will continue to press into the Lord during this time of spiritual upheaval and seek that lighted path of God’s word.
May God bless you and the many others here for the ministry you have to those coming out of SGM.
Blue Sky,
I love your name. It means you are coming out of the fog and there is hope ahead for you.
I just want to say that leaving SGM is not an easy choice. It must be done by faith because the Lord is guiding you to leave, not just because it seems like a good idea. Post SGMers have found many difficulties on the journey away from a controlling church. They have the conviction that the Lord led them away from SGM and that He will keep them on the road to freedom in Christ. Having that conviction comes from having faith that you are, in essence, being led out of the land of Egypt.
Whatever you sense is the right course from the Holy Spirit, we are here for you. When He shows you what to do, step forward in faith that He will walk beside you, before you, and behind you. Big hugs! Canary
Blue Sky,
Yes I am still a member of CLC.
Blue Sky, feel free to call me (or friend me on facebook) if you want to chat further.
Anne (CLC 1986-2007)
Today,during a Womens Bible Study , the teacher (! a woman!), gave an illustration of how a Pharisee approaches Gods Word:
Like a drunkard who is making his way down a darkened street –he sees a lightpost, and moves towards it, recognizing that the light post will hold him up and support him.
–The LIGHT illuminating from the lightpost is secondary and even cavalierly dismissed as he continues his walk to……..where?
This illustration struck me in regards to posters here on the Refuge who often speak and cry out for Light…and for Gods people to SEE…. during the many stories we have all read; the church upheavals; as SGM calls their meetings and issues their propaganda (doctrine of control)—and it is obvious they do not SEE their root of control and manipulation…they just continue on their way…to the next ‘post’ to hold up their man-made polity of control.
Here on the Your Story thread — we hear those whose eyes are opening and hearts are awakening…. from the captivity of religion. In our family, we remind ourselves that we didn’t even know the degree we were oppressed by SGM control, until God shook our lives and delivered us out! Exodus 3:7, our God declares: ” I know their sorrows.”
The Hebrew word for ‘know’ suggests a deeply intimate realtionship and perception!–So, He is intimately acquainted with sorrows that are the result from slavery of any kind.
Saints, Jesus is still alive and active in Isa 61:1 — He opens our eyes and sets us free AND empowers us to remain free—walking in liberty with Him…hearing His Voice above all others…..enjoying the wonder of His Living Word breathing life into our brokenness…and stirring up the rivers of living water …..That we would not be stagnant or neutered or muzzled sheep………but that we would be continuously ‘filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding’ (Col1:9)
For all the authors here who have penned your stories of deliverance from SGM,
we can declare:
“Behold, GOD is my helper;
the LORD is the upholder of my life.” (PS 54:4)
Rejoicing with you this evening— Waters
Thank you, Waters. That was a wonderful post.
I came across your blog when things erupted at SGM earlier last week. Although I don’t agree with all the comments here and at sgmsurvivors, the blogs and comments quickly made me realize that I am not alone in discerning the cult-like environment within SGM. Let me also emphasize that the symptoms and problems described online here are widespread throughout SGM, not just CLC.
My brief story. I was a member of two SGM churches in the DC-MD-VA area for a total of 8 years. During my first visit to a caregroup they spent over 45 minutes praising the attributes of the pastor. When I question the cgl about this, I was pointed to 1 Tim 5:17 – you know, the “double honor” idea. The months turned into years and I witnessed nothing short of idol worship being given to the pastoral staff. It’s so easy to see that NOW, but I was so taken-in by their “observations” of my pride and sinful judgments. The papal hierarchy, manipulations and severe pressure to conform (“cult of personality”) were also rampant at both churches. The entire eight years I felt the Holy Spirit prodding me: something-is-wrong-here-but-I-can’t-put-my-finger-on-it. I confronted pastors at both churches on these issues – citing multiple examples and how they contradicted scripture. Both made it clear that it was inconceivable to think they weren’t 100% correct (okay, 98%…), and that the apostolic team didn’t interpret the passages that way (“this is just how we do things within SGM”).
It’s now been over a year since I pulled my family out of SGM. It was hard leaving friends, brothers and sisters. We found a church that points us to Christ, not just the Cross. I’ve noticed how many of you (here and sgmsurvivors) also commented on SGM’s focus on the act of the crucifixion, vs worshiping the [risen!!] person of Jesus Christ. So easy to see that now…still kicking myself (repenting) of not yielding to the “Still Quiet Voice” I knew pre-SGM. I’ve been reading with great interest the insights and commonality here. I have been hesitant to post anything, due to concerns of 1Tim5:19 – but then I realized tonight that we are speaking out against a denomination, and there are hundreds of witnesses. I wholeheartedly agree with Josh, that the Lord is disciplining those involved. I would counter the frustration expressed by many, though, who appear to want rapid results. There is amazing peace knowing that He is orchestrating events, and has perfect timing.
This is my first post ever in a blog, sorry if it came off too long or preachy. I look forward to reading more from all y’all.
Not long or preachy, at all Wasabi. (Great name, by the way.)
Thank you very much for this encouragement. You are right, God is at work. (Oh, how I want my timing in everything!)
Stunned
Welcome, Wasabi! I thank you for the encouragement as well. I have said here before, on the occasion of being accused of bitterness, it’s not bitterness but impatience that I struggle with. Dag gum patience.
Excellent post Wasabi!
Wasabi,
Were you ever at the Kingsville church or the Joppa church? It’s ok if you would rather not say, I was just curious if we’ve met.
Wasabi,
Thankyou for sharing your story and insights……….
and oh how I need the reminder not to expect rapid results, but remembering God is orchestrating and accomplishing His very intiricate, detailed workings —all for His Glory!
We rejoice that you and your family have “come out from among them” !
I have visited you site numerous times over the years, but have never had the courage to write. Even now,as I am writing, I am worried about filling in the “required fields”.
Our family attended a SGC for three years. We were a prime target. We left our previous church due to….It’s a long story, involving a inappropriate and dishonest leadership. It was a painful time, but God was faithful!
Anyway….. we began attending SGC. The Pastor met with us and said that his church was very “hard to get in to” but it is very easy to leave. He was honest! The people were very friendly – at first. We attended membership classes for a year, before we were granted membership. Lots of classes (weekly) to make sure we were the type of members they wanted. We attended a Parent and Youth TAG. We also attended a family TAG group. As time progressed we were invited to attend a Marriage TAG group. The youth TAG was very disturbing. The men met with the boys and almost every lesson was begun with “I’ve been really busy and have not had time to prepare, so, I’m just going to read the book out loud.” (Josh Harris’ book) My husband thought it very weird that almost every session the leader would ask the men/boys to discuss their sexual “triggers”. WOW! Eventually, my husband was so disturbed by the inappropriateness of the topic (fathers and young sons 12, and teenaged sons 18 sharing what “triggers” immoral thoughts.), that he stopped attending. The Marriage TAG was also odd. Couples would sit around together and the men would talk about how “non-submissive” their wives were! At the end of the class, several of the wives would be crying. It was very disturbing! The men were so controlling! When my husband voiced his concerns, he was told that women needed to submit to their husbands. There are many other things which happened during our time at this church. Most of it was awful! Our children were told by leaders that they were not very smart, that they had anger issues, that they were full of pride, etc. One child was actually told that, “it was not their place to ask any questions about anything. Their job was to, “make the leadership look good.”" We still were not sure if we should leave or not. Everyone was so unhappy. We were constantly being told that we were wretched sinners (which we are) but Christ, But God! The “bad news” was constantly repeated, but rarely was the “good news” — we have freedom in Christ! He paid the debt! He has freed us! We decided that we would meet with the pastor and discussed our concerns with him. It was quite an emotional meeting, but in the end, we had not made a final decision. ”Maybe it was us,” we thought. Maybe we were prideful. Maybe we were imagining being shunned, etc. We prayed and left the meeting. A few days later, we returned to church for an activity. No one spoke to us until we were leaving. A board member’s wife said that she heard we had met with the pastor. I was surprised, but asked how she had heard that information. She replied that the pastor had sent out an email to the leadership, saying that we were leaving the church. I was shocked! We had not even decided what we were going to do. We were actually leaning towards staying. My husband arranged for another meeting with the pastor to discuss the subject. When they met, the pastor said that he was sure that we were going to leave, but if we’d like, he could send an email stating that we had changed our mind and were now going to stay! Wow! I’m not sure what he eventually did, but shortly after that meeting we left SGC.
We have be away for almost a year and have not heard from anyone — except when we bump into them, etc. Were they told not to contact us? Possibly. I guess it doesn’t matter, really. Looking back, we are actually thankful that we were treated so badly, because if we were accepted, we may have stayed and perhaps would have become completely deceived! God was, and is, faithful to us. We have learned many lessons. We are active in a local church and L-O-V-E it! It is a doctrinally sound church with kind leadership and lovely members.The pastor is an expository preacher and loves God and his flock. It is not perfect — but neither are we! It’s a good fit! I look back at our painful SGC experience and am thankful that through all those difficult times, He never left us. We have been set free!
After writing and re-writing this email, I think I will actually fill in the required fields. I am in total agreement with Waters, We too rejoice that He protected us and that He opened our eyes and led our family to, ‘come out from among them!’ Forget the former things, do not dwell on the past. See I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up, do you not see it?! Is. 43:18, 19a (The Message) He is and we see!!
Welcome, “We see!” Thank you for working up the courage to share your story with us. It’s not always an easy thing to do.
Nice job “We See.” Your story is so very familiar but still yours alone. God bless you as you live and walk in His freedom and embrace. Jump in any time, please.
Welcome, We See! I’m glad you see. There is such joy in your freedom in Christ. Wonderful!
We See! — I love your name!!!! Thankyou for sharing your story with us—we hear your sound of deliverance loud and clear—thankyou Lord for Your manifested redemption for this family— Be Blessed, We Sees! as you walk in the newness of liberty in Christ Jesus!
—Waters
Hi – We see! I am so glad you found another church. One of the heartbreaking things for me when I read the stories here – is when someone feels like church is no longer a safe place and so they don’t have one. My new church is a source of constant blessing to me. I was so beaten down when I left SGM. I grew up in an abusive home. Then as an adult became a Christian. I came to SGM and all I heard at SGM as a woman, was submit, submit, submit and nothing I ever did would measure up. It all added up to hating being female. What honor was there in that? At my new church, men lead but it is done in a way that they “serve” not rule. Women are respected. My pastor has taught about the value and beauty of women. I am almost 50 and for the first time ever in my life, I celebrate and love being a woman. God has used my new church to bring SO much healing to me. SGM thought they could force me to do whatever they wanted by withholding love if I didn’t obey, they demanded, shunned, followed me to my new church, and thought I couldn’t live without them. I was beyond heartbroken for years over the loss of relationship. I wanted to die. I was suicidal. I thought I lost everything including God. Now, I wouldn’t want to ever go to an SGM church. I prefer to be around people that build me up and don’t tear me down. I will love them because they are my brothers and sisters even when they wrong me; and the church is God’s…but I love them from afar and would never allow any of my old SGM friends back into my life. I am free to choose the friends that are good for me. I don’t miss them at all!
I am too busy loving God, His church, and totally enjoying being free. I am So much closer to God, and I love who I am and I love my life.
Mary, that is a great testimony. I am so happy you shared it.
Thanks Stunned!
How I survive in a SGM church
We were members of CLC for about 7 years Then relocated and have been members of a SGM church for the past 6 years. What I like about SGM is the teachings and worship. They are excellent. We are well taught.
The PROBLEM with the church for us is the relationships with other members. We were at CLC having a struggle with infertility. It was the most painful and difficult time in my life. For years and years. We so very munch wanted children. So we went to a fertility clinic for help. Oh no right LOL I told one “friend” only. She told our care group leader. She said “in love and to care for us”. Could you please love us less? LOL Somehow everyone then knew. We were sent for pastoral counseling. Great. Nothing came of this meeting. Just asked a lot of questions. Told us he wanted to meet again. We just blew it off. CLC had over 2000 members, so easy to just get lost.
We were able to have a beautiful baby. There was a blank to pay. These women gossiped about us nonstop. They would even point to us in the hallway and talk to each other. We were snubbed frozen out, talked down to you get the picture right? I kept thinking what is it going to be like for our child to grow up in this church? I had one man from our care group come up to me in the lobby and say “Oh that poor little thing”. His wife was pregnant with their 6th child. She was very angry about her pregnancy and stated many times she did not want her baby. So when he said that I looked at him and said “Well he was so dearly wanted and so very loved. Can you say that about all of yours?”
My husband then changed jobs and we are now members of a SGM church. So I guess by now you get that I “dont fit” very well. And you know what it’s fine with me. I do homeschool but not with our church group. I do not believe in isolating my self or our children. I have many friends some do go to our church some do not. And if you think thats dicey how about this, I even have unsaved friends. Unsaved friends who I am not attempting to direct toward a SGM church. I just like them!
I was told recently by my current care group leader that I needed to develop more relationships. I said “thats something to think about”
So how so you surrive in a SGM church? Dont isolate yourself. If they say jump dont ask how far. Just because they make an “observation” you do not have to agree with it. Think about it. It’s just their opinion they are also sinners. NEVER NEVER go for counseling they write everything down and will use it if needed. This happened to us. Our new pastor had info that could have only come from our previous church. Just so he could care for us of course. Find a private Christan counselor. Be very careful about what and who you talk to. Don’t tell anyone, anything you wouldnt want printed in the local newspapper!!!
I got professional help to get past most of this. I realized it had a hold on me emotionaly. I could not give my family or my God 100% of ME. I was still bound up with them! I saw how much power I gave them. How much controll. I was done, I wanted ME back. And I got help to do that.
Why do we stay? Love the teaching and worship. Just cannot get anything like it anywhere else. We have looked. I have found a way to make it work for me. It has actually helped my relationship with my husband. He is my BFF. I girl talk with him!! Hope this helps. I need to go to bed!!!!!!!!
SGM Mom, thanks for sharing your story. I’m sorry to hear your years of pain and heartache and happy to hear that you now have children. Too many people with heart break over not having children.
Can I ask why anyone would think it wasn’t OK to go to a fertility clinic? That doesn’t make any sense to me. Aren’t fertility clinics great gifts from God?
Here is my testimony:
PDI Senior Pastor /Songwriter Caves to Leaders in the Mid 1990s
My wife and I were a part of Covenant Life Church and Lord of Life Church in Indiana, PA, for nearly years (1984 – 1996). I had been an assistant home group leader until my wife had a nervous breakdown in December of 1990. She was clearly postpartum, as she just had our fifth and last child. On top of that I foolishly decided that she should have a tubal ligation only a few days later. She was also homeschooling our two oldest. But because of this, which translated into me “not taking care of my family….” I was removed. At the same time there was another person who was a home group leader, whose two children were in rebellion, and was not removed. (I’m not saying that he necessarily should have been removed; probably not in fact.) Also, when my wife was having mental-emotional problems it was my fault; but when the wives of certain other men in the church, even leaders, were having similar problems, it was because of a chemical imbalance.
There has clearly been a double standard as to who is in and who is out. I have also become aware of many other such occurrences. The way that I discovered I was no longer an assistant home group leader was when I went to my church mailbox it was no longer there. It’s similar to them painting over Larry Tomczak’s door, but on a much smaller scale.
When the radical change in PDI’s doctrine occurred I strongly spoke out against it. At that time there was hardly anyone, if anyone, in our local congregation who agreed with TULIP. But they eventually became heavily indoctrinated, sort of the way the JW’s do via their Watchtower and Awake literature, much the same way our pastor previously was.
In fact, at one point, before my pastor, Mark Altrogge gave in, during one of our three-hour knock down face to face meetings; I asked him how long he had been a Christian. It was like 25 years. I asked him if during that time he read God’s Word regularly. The answer was yes. Then I asked him if he read it prayerfully during that time. Again the answer was yes. Then I asked him when he came to believe in TULIP. He knew at that point that he had just got busted and he uncomfortably admitted that it had been about two years earlier when C.J. started propagating and later pushing it on people.
Mark then agreed to read any book of my choice which took an opposing view to Calvinism. I asked him to read Robert Shank’s “Elect in the Son”. He read it and about three weeks later came up to me before a church service and called me aside and, very quietly and almost secretively, told me that he completely agreed with Robert Shank’s position.
Now he had to break the news to Brent or Dave Harvey or whoever was “Over” us at that time. They were panicked as he was one of their main songwriters. He had actually discussed pulling some of his songs that had a Calvinistic bent to them. He was asked to write a position paper and he asked me to help. I did, but it was very lengthy. So Mark wrote his own, which was very pointed and well written. He then submitted it to the PDI leadership. Also during that time he had even seriously talked with me about leaving PDI, and we discussed whether or not he should turn the church building over to them.
After submitting his paper Mark was asked to “dialogue” with them on the subject. When I asked him how the supposed dialogue was going he said that they gave him several books to read and discuss, like Anthony Hoekema’s “Saved by Grace”. Then C.J. even invited him to speak at CLC, which of course was PDI’s mothership. I very much doubt if he would have ever smelled CLC’s pulpit had they not been going all out to dissuade him from what he actually believed. It was either conform, conform, conform, or out, out, out.
Towards the end of our time at that church I continued to address many of the following things listed below, but Mark refused to hear. I had been saying and have continued to say that:
PDI/SGM leaders and local pastors are elitists who think they have a corner on the truth; they are very proud and arrogant; they view themselves as the enlightened ones, while viewing all other Christians and their church affiliations as the unenlightened; in other words, those who do not agree with their theology are looked down on as second-class Christians and denominations; they are manipulative and controlling; much of the time they act like a bunch of clones; and that they are absolutely obsessed with TULIP.
Over the years there have been lots of hypocrisy and a clear double-standard regarding how they treat certain people and the way they treat certain other people. I’ve always likened SGM to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. At the very top you have the infallible Pope CJ. Then the cardinals, arch-bishops, bishops, priests, etc.
In his 7/10/11 Sunday evening message at CLC it was refreshing to hear Josh Harris finally admit to several of the same things. In Brent’s “documents” I found the part about CJ blackmailing Larry, Doris, and Justin sickening and reprehensible. Isn’t it interesting how even though C.J. is supposedly so close and in tune with God, it took him some 13 years to acknowledge his sins of pride, hypocrisy, manipulation and mistreatment of others; and now finally he has gotten around to making things right with Larry. It so obvious, as is evidenced in Brent’s documents what an idol Reformed theology is within SGM.
Case in point, within these documents, C.J. stated that it would have been OK and that he wouldn’t blackmail the Tomczak family, if Larry left the movement, but did not say that it was over “doctrinal” differences. It has become clear that C.J. is not the most humble person on the face of the earth. As a movement they need to realize their facade of humility is nothing more than false humility, which of course is just another form of pride. It is apparent that C.J. has always craved adulation and the leaders of PDI/SGM have always fallen over each other when introducing each other. And if they happen to be introducing one of their gods like RC Sproul it is downright scary.
As a post script I want to state that before CJ changed in the early 1990’s, he was my very most favorite Christian teacher. In my cassette/CD library I have by far more of CJ’s messages than anyone else. Unfortunately, his desire for prestige, power, and recognition made him the arrogant autocrat that he is today.
I don’t know where you stand doctrinally, but why all the fuss? Brent and CJ and all the other SGM leaders and their underlings should not be upset about any of the things that are going on at this time since God foreordained it from all eternity; as He did with all demonic activity, and every rape, murder, disease, child molestation, etc. True? Over and over again their own theology mocks them.
Below is a poem I think is very applicable to what has been going on with PDI/SGM or the past 15 years or so. Can anyone relate?
COVENANTAL CRUNCH
By Dr. Michael L. Brown
Covenantal, covenantal, covenantal crunch,
Judging, quenching, crowding, crushing — having you for lunch!
“Confirmation, confirmation, confirmation, please!
With our covenantal strictures you’ll be in a squeeze!
“Submit! Conform! Become like us! Soon you’ll fit our mold.
We’ll cramp out your identity in our stranglehold.
“You’re much too independent; you think you hear God well.
But if He has a word to speak, it’s the group He’ll tell!
“We’re playing by the rules we wrote; what we build will last.
We have endless meetings; you just pray and fast!
“You talk about anointing, of moving in the Lord.
Well that stuff’s not impressive. God’s not on our board!”
My brothers please do hear me. I’ve got a word for you:
If the prophets were alive, them you’d shut up too!
Paul you’d call a rebel; John Huss an arrogant man;
Luther you’d brand unteachable. He wouldn’t fit the plan!
Whitefield would be cast out; William Booth misunderstood;
“You’re breaking with our pattern! It’s not for the common good.
“Come here under our covering. Please don’t rock the boat” –
But, no, I see those tentacles, reaching for my throat!
Submission is a good word, authority a good thing –
It brings men into freedom; but what do your codes bring?
So here is my conclusion. This is what I’ve found:
Maybe you are “bonding” — but I don’t want to be bound!
SGM Mom – thanks for sharing your story, I missed it when you first posted it – just saw it today.
JL,
good poem, thanks for posting it!
@Jock Lenzi – When I started attending CLC in 1987, I understood there to be good relations between CLC/PDI and Beth Messiah/Mike Brown. That’s all ancient history, of course, but I wonder when he wrote that poem? I wonder when he started seeing problems?
@KMD – Mike Brown wrote it in 1993.
@Ellie – Gladly.
My story was posted at the Wartburg Watch as part of their series on psychology and the American church:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/20.....sad-story/
Mrs. Stretch, Thank you for sharing your story. I am very touched by your transparency. I pray your courage will give others the courage they need to get professional help for all kinds of mental health issues, even in the face of pastoral disapproval. Blessings to you!
Mrs. Stretch,
Thank you for the courage to share your story with others.
Praying for you!
Mrs. Stretch,
Bless you for sharing your story. I am praising God He is bringing you healing!
Thanks for the encouraging comments.
I am disappointed. I sent a link to my story to a few folks that I had considered close friends at my former SGM church. Not one of them has responded yet. I think since we left and now the CJ stuff, the pastor has “educated” them well about gossip and slander. I know for a fact when we left the pastor told them to avoid any “arguments” with us. Their way to deal with it is just to ignore — this from folks who claimed to be my friend. I pray that folks from Living Hope Church are reading and saddened. While I am concerned about hurting the pastor and his wife, I am more concerned that no one experience more harm because their counsel prevents them from getting the professional help they need. I can think of a few folks who would probably benefit from outside help. This is why I was willing to share my story. I don’t want my pain to be in vain — I want God to use it to help others.
Mrs Stretch,
Thankyou for your very transparent, ‘from the heart’ sharing of your story. Truly, we will probably never know the hundreds of people who were/are discarded and dangerously wounded by SGM ministries because they only affirm SGM pastors as capable of administering (critically needed) counseling.
I pray the friends you wrote to will take your testimony into their heart and spirit—and perhaps they will share it with someone who would benefit. Sadly, the SGM m.o is to “warn” their congregants about we who leave, and speak anything contrary to their doctines or mandates. Control, control, control………
Today, our pastor made this statement:
“The Holy Spirit is the Someone living inside you, who knows everything about everything –and is committed to teaching you!”
I choose His Voice—above any mans…….
Hey By Faith Alone, I was at the same church you mentioned for over 4 years, left for similar reasons (though not entirely the same). I live in Burlington and now pastor a missional church in the city called Dwell. Let me know if you’d like to grab coffee sometime.
Oops, sorry, here’s the email: zach@dwellchurch.com.
I now have lost a very dear friend at SG Lowcountry because her husband will not allow her to be friends with a “sinful woman”. all I did was make a suggestion to the pastor and he could not have someone do that. He said he was the final authority. I really was only trying to prevent him from making the same mistake some made 15 years ago in VA. Can they do anymore to hurt me? I think not!
Wounded,
We’ve all lost friends post SGM so we understand. What it takes time to realize is that they were never true friends if they stop caring for us just because we disagree with their polity. Love is the greatest gift for a believer to walk in. How little love is sometimes shown to those wounded who have been forced to leave SGM.
The way through the pain? Pray for them. It truly helps in the forgiveness process. There are believers outside of SGM who will care for you with the love of God. SGM is such a small bubble compared to the whole of the Body of Christ. God bless!
Oh Wounded, I am so sad to hear of the loss you are experiencing. I wish you didn’t have to go through that. I will be praying for you today. Jesus loves you. God loves you.
Wounded, I don’t know if this will be a comfort to you or not (I hope it is), would you be willing to write to Canary at aftersgm@gmail.com or to me at notaloneanymore1@gmail.com ? I’d really like to see how we can be a support to you right now.
Many hugs,
Stunned
Wounded,
My wife Carole knows Canary and Stunned very well, and we want you to know that they can be trusted. They are both on a very short list of people who I would recommend reaching out to.
I came to visit hoping and praying I would find that SG was actually working toward restoration and changing for the good of the gospel. I’m sad to discover that many are still be shunned and abused…. Praying for a true heart change within the church leadership!
Bruised, how are you doing?
fwiw,
I’ve been able to get to know Canary and she is a kind wise woman.
Stunned, stunned is at another level because I have known Stunned for over twenty years, closer to 25 years and she is among the most kind, authentic, godly, trustworthy people in my world, bar none.
Backing up Jim’s statement (as well as his ability to judge character.)
God bless you Wounded, and also you, Bruised.
You would certainly be blessed if you have fellowship with either Stunned or Canary.
Wonderful godly women who KNOW the pain of that kind of shunning, and the hurt of realizing that friendships that you thought were unconditional – had the unspoken condition of membership and agreement with SGM’s policies and teaching, thru and thru.
Wounded — so sorry that you have lost a friend, and even worse that you have been branded a “sinful woman” by people you thought you could trust.
SGM Lowcountry’s website shows that they had their first meeting on August 20, 2011. Open for business barely a month, and they’ve already started to shoot their own wounded? So very sad.
Wounded, I bet there are some wonderful churches and Christians down there in Summerville. I hope you can find some open arms and open hearts who will love you with the love of the Lord.
Before the paint dries, Lowcountry should rename itself beLowthebelt country. It doesn’t roll off the tongue any worse than Lowcountry and it is more accurate.
Jim, DB and Defended- check’s in the mail.
Thanks for your comments. i will contact the women you mentioned. My anger may be sinful but until something is done to stop these abusive practices of SG, I just can’t imagine why anyone would expose themselves to the kind of treatment they dish out. When did all this start? I remember the trouble in the early 90″s but maybe there was more before that?
I am a teen and have been attending CLC for my entire life (17 yrs). I grew up around all of this stuff and accepted Christianity to be what I was taught from CLC. I was fed the doctrine of CLC when I was first starting out in my walk with the Lord and all throughout since. I was always under this impression- You go to church, and whatever the pastors at CLC say is right. To me, because the pastors taught how humility is supposed to look and spoke in the most “humble” voice ever and with such sincere and calming slow gentle tones…Anything they said had to be true. This was earlier in my walk before I really ventured to question whether what they teach could be wrong. I felt that if I ever thought that, that I was cursed for good.
Now, I want to say that even though I have never met with a pastor about issues, the heavy SGM/CLC values still affect me as a teen just as much as it affects a lot of the adults.
(Even if I have never been slammed by pastors during a counseling meeting.)
What do I mean by that? Well, teens are taught what their parents have been taught. And since there seems to be too heavy of a vice on “not questioning authority”, those teens get brained washed and never want to question whether what they are being taught is true. A lot of my friends would come up and tell me it was wrong to date/ like a girl if I was a teen. There was no indication of any impurity, but right off the bat they said it was wrong. I would get prescribed the good ol’ award winning, top seller, teen sensational book… “I kissed dating goodbye”. Of course I felt soooo happy and full of joy to hear I needed to read that book just because I liked a girl and therefore was idolatrous, sinful, and impure. Heheh…. not….. It hurt me soo much and still hurts me today. My teenage friends would over and over tell me I was wrong for doing something that the bible says is very natural: loving someone of the opposite gender and in the main goal of one day marrying them.
Another thing I recently have been hit with is… In light of all of the things going on with SGM and CJ.. I have come to realize so many things I was blind to. I realized that there were major things that were concerning with certain aspects of covenant life/ SGM. One thing from my point of view is there is an unhealthy use of grace and an overpowering message of grace. Don’t get me wrong, I am full on for grace.. But when it becomes a thing were you can never stand up for what’s right, is a safe haven to continue with sin, and/or smoothes over grievous sins such as abuse, etc…Then I am very concerned/ angry. [Romans 6:1-3]
I would go to my friends for advice of how to handle certain situations (specifically a situation that involved one of my friends being abused.)
My friends told me stuff like, ”look, you need to not be bitter at this person, you need to just forgive them…I think having the authorities involved is way out of the question.. The pastors are more qualified.” I was not bitter, but was angry that this incident was going on, not stopping, that it was being hidden, and not being dealt with. [1 Corinthians 5:13]
I would get that response over and over. Seemed like nobody was willing to support me and understand anything. Many told me I was self righteous and wasn’t forgiving/forgetting, and didn’t understand because I was a teen.
To me… if someone is abusing someone and is hiding it, not stopping, and doesn’t care about what they are doing… something NEEDS TO BE DONE…cant just shove it under a rug. I’m tired of being wussified by being shoved down for every time I want to stand up for what’s right!! I cant stand it one bit!!!!!!
Right now I will say I believe the friends who told me that were wimps. I know that may sound strong but I am tired of this wimpy ‘go with the flow’ mindset CLC has laid. Can nobody stand up for what’s right anymore?! The teen world of course is filled with “oh it’s not my place to get involved…plus I don’t want any trouble to penetrate my bubble”, but I have seen it in adults too. I’m sorry but as a teen to see adults, especially leaders of my church not take a stand for what’s right, it realllly doesn’t look cool at all to me.
We are at war with sin. You’re never going to see a soldier decked out with firepower walk up to an enemy who has only a knife and say “oh please don’t hurt me!!! Please oh please oh please don’t hurt me!!!” No, he would use the power he has to take out that opponent. We as Christians should realize we got firepower from the Lord to take out sin and resist Satan who only has a little dinky knife. And we need to use it! We can’t just be driven by our sins and act like there is no battle.
CLC seems to view sin as something that’s just normal. Its almost like its considered incurable and that we are certain to sin at some point each day. While that may be true I really don’t think from a teen standpoint that we should expect to sin. We should expect not to sin since we are reborn by the blood of Christ!
That’s the basic gist of my experience at CLC as a teen. After leaving I have lost most of my friends and hope to be able to get some support through this blog and help other people too who need support. This has really been a dark shadow in my whole life soo far and a huge trial. Thanks.
Welcome! Thank you for sharing your story.
I am sorry your have experienced such misapplication of Scripture at CLC. Good for you for pursuing your own walk with God. Continue to seek the Lord as you think through what it means to worship Him in truth.
I urge you to go ahead and act on your best instincts regarding that situation of abuse. If you know (or have reason to believe) that someone is or has been abused, you are exactly right to want to report it to the authorities. Pick up the phone and make the call, and don’t let anyone talk you our of it. You are right to stand up for the victim.
I hope you post again and let us know how you are doing and what happens next.
You are behaving and feeling much more like a normal teen than the teens that are telling you to blend in and obey authority without questioning.
You are supposed to be questioning everything through your teens so you can make beliefs your own instead of blindlly following your parents or pastors.
And there are authorities beyond your shamefully neglectful and self-serving pastors. Drop a dime on the abuser (and by drop a dime, I mean call the POLICE on them and see justice done.)
There is a much larger world beyond the little fifedom of CLC/SGM. Enjoy your freedom.
Thanks guys for the support. I must say i was scared to post on here because i feel ill get shot for speaking against SGM/CLC, but i still want to be honest.
Due to deatils of the situation (which i rather keep confidential for privacy reasons) the police honestly might not be the best option for where the situation lies right now, but i am not going to write implementing that measure off by any means. I have made a list of things that if they happen i will report it, but right now due to some details i think i need to wait. I know that sounds like a shallow answer but i really want to be careful with pulling the plug due to reprocussions that could spring foreward. that sort of situation is always a hard one to handle…. there are a lot of variables.
But i am upset that it seems like in the teen world and even when i would suggest using the police for anything, it would get shot down by anyone id ask. They would say that was a far jump and that the pastors should help them. i felt almost sinful for ever questioning to call the police on anything in my life.
Teen who now is Free,
What a heartfelt post! Thank you. It sounds like you have a good grip on the truth about your experiences with SGM. I, too, saw the silliness in excusing some sins with the idea that we are all expected to sin. That goes against the word of God. Jesus set us free from the need/desire to sin. His life in us can conquer any sin.
I admire the way you would stand up for those being mistreated. Many adults, as you witnessed, don’t have the guts to do that!
We have a women’s blog that has been going on for two years called After SGM. The women blogging are considering the need for teens/young adults to have their own blog in order to help one another heal post SGM. It would be private, just like After SGM. We are trying to assess the scope of the need out their for our young brothers and sisters before stepping out with this new venture. Would this new blog be of interest to you? Do you know of any others who would be helped by having their own venue to post on?
The name of the blog is TIAH (There Is a Hope). I would be interested in your thoughts about whether this type of blog (teen/young adult post SGMers) would be of aid to you/and friends. Feed back is good in order to help us decide if we (the bloggers on the women’s blog) should move forward with this idea.
Thank you!
I’m glad you are willing to report the abuse if needed. I don’t know the details, but, please, don’t second-guess things or try to control the outcome. The police and child protective agencies can actually exercise finesse at times and usually have seen enough of these to know how to proceed.
If it is simply a matter of an overly-strict parent or something like that, you can exercise your own discretion. If it reaches the level of a crime (assault, battery, child cruelty or neglect, lewdness, molestation, etc.) you really have a duty to report. If messy things follow, it would be because of the abuser, not the reporter. It wouldn’t be your fault.
May God give you peace and wisdom and freedom in Him.
Canary,
Thanks for the encouragment!! Realy!! This is all so wierd to me because i am used to being ousted whenever i speak concern with things going on in the church.
I just from an early age have been made aware that there is too much abuse going on in the world. Whether it be kids, women being abused, or dating abuse even. I am very sad whenever i hear of an abuse case occur or that is happening. Its actually been the reason i am now involved with the local PD. I want it to end! And when i see it in my own church!? and when nothings done about it?! i am super upset!! and whenever i seem to be angry i am told i am sinning and being an extremist when these things should be made a big deal and not minimized
I would love to jump on board with the teen blog. I really want to be able to help other teens who are hurting and who are aware of the things going on. I personally only know of one other teen on my end who has left CLC that would benifit from the blog.
Teen,
If I weren’t sitting in a public place, I would be standing on my chair applauding you with my loudest claps and cheering at the top of my lungs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, dear brother, God has such good plans for you. There is HOPE. I know it is scary right now, but you had the courage of a lion to stand up and begin to do what is most dangerous for many SGM teens- to… THINK.
Brother, I rejoice that you haven’t thrown the baby out with the bath water. It is SO HARD to suss out what is God and what is man, but it sounds like you are on your way.
He has made you free and for that I rejoice heartily! Where is a private room I can dance in when I need one?
All the best and looking forward to being a support for you,
Stunned
Not again,
Thank you. I will take this into consideration. I am definetely willing to if it is needed, but i also want to excercise wisdom based on the particular details. But thank you! Will take that all into consideration.
Teen,
This quote came to mind when I first read your post. I wish your ”friends” who told you not to say/do anything knew this quote.
If you are neutral on situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. – Desmond Tutu
Stunned,
Now you got me stunned! haha Thank you soo much!!!!!! This has been a really hard road to travel. And very often im told its because im making it that way. But really, i’m glad im at unrest with this. More teens need to realise what is happening. Seems today teens are more interested in the political news and they get very worked up over politics but never anything in the church. And does anybody shut them down when they get upset with issues in politics? no! but something happens when someone questions the issues of the church that sends red flags into the air. Arent we supposed to follow what God said in
1 Corinthians 5:12-13?
Teen,
You have it all wrong. We are supposed to let others tell us what to think and what to do.
Basically, God wants OTHERS to control us (as these others want to do). And we are NEVER to grow in a relationship with Jesus. And the Holy Spirit? He’s kinda tired after 2,000 years, so He wants a break. He certainly doesn’t want us to lean on Him or have us lead us. He’s given that job to pastors at SGM. Last I heard the Holy Spirit was on vacation in Tahiti.
Or at least that is the way some Christians act….
Right!!! Afterall it was people who created the world and knew everything before time and was people who wrote the bible-knowing all things.
Yeah probably didnt recharge the energizer batteries so i guess i really cant decearn anything on my own.
Well if that were true… Get me a one way ticket to Tahiti please!!
Yes i know.. and is very sad really. One of my favorite speakers (Francis Chan) once said that he wondered what christianity would look like to him if he just lived on a deserted island with only his bible. Without any spins or frills…just him and his bible. He wondered what he would walk away with after just basing his convictions on what God told him.
Teen who now is free..
“To me… if someone is abusing someone and is hiding it, not stopping, and doesn’t care about what they are doing… something NEEDS TO BE DONE…cant just shove it under a rug. I’m tired of being wussified by being shoved down for every time I want to stand up for what’s right!! I cant stand it one bit!!!!!!”
Your statement describes exactly how I felt during my long fight regarding one of my friends who was severely spiritually abused. It was in the fighting that God set me free. Sounds like this is happening to you too. You can never go wrong by standing up for truth. Welcome to the battle. More importantly, welcome back to truth and grace… and the lover of your soul, Jesus!! Stay in the Word and pour your heart out to Him and you will be fine.
For what it’s worth, I sense the Lord will use you to comfort others and help them see what you now see. Be on the lookout for others who need to be set free.
Teen,
Your sense of mercy and justice are to be commended but another thing; when someone is being abused, particularly when the abuse is institutionalized as is the case in some church settings with respect to absolutely draconian parenting methodologies, if one person; yes, one small voice, rises in their defense, it can mean something to the abused person.
Please, do not let anyone extinguish the fire that burns within you with their notion of what you should be. You are God’s child created in His image and your sin was taken care of at the cross so the focus should be on your image of godness because the rest of the world needs to catch up with the reality that God no longer sees sin when He looks at you.
Teen who now is free..
I forgot to encourage you to definitely report the abuse. If you are afraid to or concerned about other issues, then go to others who are obligated to report the abuse once they know i.e, teachers, counselors, or go straight to child protective services. You can remain anonymous with them.
Mr. Dixon,
if youd like you can email me at teenthatsfree@gmail.com to talk more about abuse cases. And really anyone feel free to. i set it up just for this. Just cause since i still visit CLC off and on, some things i just rather not be made public at the moment.
Teen who now is free,
Thanks….. I’ll email you later, after I get off the road. Look forward to talking.
Thank you, would love some advice on how to handle situations involving abuse.
@DB thanks. please feel free to email me too.
Strip me of my friends, support of fam, good reputation but i am not standing down in the fight for whats right. Thank you for your words! it really is encouraging to hear that when i get the opposite so much.
Teen who is now free,
Just returned home and have been reading your posts, along with the posting encouragements of fellow Refuge-ers —I tell you, this is an awesome bunch of warriors!
We stand with you and, like the wonderful ‘Stunned’, stand on a chair and whoop and applaud— God is answering prayer— He is awakening the young! Stay awake, dear warrior, you are seeing—keep asking, seeking, knocking– Jesus breathes all of His valor and Breath of Life into you. I know there ARE other SGM teens who have a rustling of questions in their spirit— God will bring them your way! Perhaps there are some SGM adults near where you live you can fellowship with and know they ‘have your back’.
Be alert, the enemy would to arrest your new found freedom and liberty in Christ.
You are correct — there should be a love for justice within the church– this is foundational in Christ– PS 89:14 “Righteousness and Justice are the foundations of Your throne”— Jesus has so very much to say about this— be encouraged— you are seeing and desiring Truth…He will guide you. Take courage!
Our household is praying for you! ~ Waters
Yes i fully agree. Thank you everyone! i have been getting sooo much flack for questioning clc/sgm from very close people in my life and told i am arrogant and stubborn. It is such a breath of fresh air to hear from you guys!!
My hope is that more teens will have the courage to post on here. I have a feeling many like myself were scared of the consequences of posting on here. for me it is losing the rest of my friends at clc, getting put under church correction, yelled at, scoffed at, expelled possibly from homeschool classes there, etc etc etc… I just hope they will be able to post on here.
Thanks so much for support!! AHHH! You have no idea how much this all is menaing to me. Hope i dont lose my manliness if i cry haha. This is one of the first placesive come to and mentioned that i like a girl and not be corrected on it. THAT is also a sigh of relief!!
@Waters thank you for praying!! its also nice to know you guys are praying! (other than praying for my soul)
Teen, just wanted to say welcome. What a journey you’ve been on, and are still on! Good for you!
Teen, arrogance is abhorrent, but stubbornness — well, I’ve known that to come in handy a time or two! ; )
Maybe it’s semantics.
Thanks guys!!
Yeh but being stubborn means you’re a self righteous rebel not submitting to authority and therefore is sin..
or thats what iv’e heard from many of my friends…. hurts ha
Guess i was expected to just sit down, shut up, and be peaceful. well i guess i will die and rot then since im a “rebel”…
: P
Teen,
Allow me a few words about myself; I am the mother of eight children three of whom were badly hurt by the typical things a teenager goes through at SGM (add to that our family being dismembered.) The middle two not so much and the youngest three have no memories of PDI/SGM.
After PDI/SGM, I have learned a *lot* about how our bodies and minds work and, guess what? My kids are normal, not little spawns of satan ready to sin and rebel. I learned that it is better to think the best of them but expect mistakes because we’re only human.
My oldest three, bless them, love God but will not darken the door of a church and who can blame them. My middle children will go but not all the time. The younger ones have no trouble going to and being a part of church.
My baby girl just turned thirteen today, she is one of the sweetest most kindhearted people I know and I have little to do with it. This is the way God created her; this is her way of being created in His image and everyone who knows her sees it lest you think I exaggerate as is the nature of moms.
So after all that, if you still want an email exchange with me, just let me know.
But be encouraged! You sound wonderful and in need of a bit of encouragement.
Would love to talk more!! Wow…Yeah that sounds like a lot.
Oh happy birthday to her!!
Yes please email me at teenthatsfree@gmail.com
Welcome Teen!
Stubborn is not such a bad thing…
Stubbornly holding fast to God’s Word.
Stubbornly holding fast to the truth.
Stubbornly holding on to God’s promises.
Stubbornly holding fast to your faith in Him.
You just need to know what to be stubborn about.
Awesome!! haha Love that list:)
We are still considering how to put the teen/young adult blog together. I will alert Jim when we’ve ironed out the kinks. Of course, that is also if/when the Holy Spirit leads. I still have to be sure this isn’t just another good idea verse God’s will. The good thing about a private blog is you can be more free with your thoughts than on a public blog.
Yes i think a private teen blog is best. keep in mind many teens (like myself) will be terrified with admitting things. Who could blame them? Theyve been through a lot!! But also the peer pressure thats so huge today…i agree private blog is best.
Also these teens may have one or both parents feeding them pursecution as well… I may or may not fall into that category. But i know that will add an extra fear level. even though itd be against parents wishes i think kids/adults are silenced wayy too much from saying whats on their heart.. Then you have teens who want to commit suicide, etc because nobody will listen or let them speak their side.
The suicide thing is serious. We’ve seen this tendency in too many young people, today. We want all teen/young adult post SGMers to realize that there is truly a hope in Jesus Christ. The church has failed to teach this hope, focusing instead on rules of behavior, pushing the Holy Spirit away from the Saints. Add to this the deceit we’ve seen in leadership and the hunger of some pastors to rule their flock…well, the disillusionment can be quite devistating.
I am hoping that a private blog for teens/young adults will save some from choosing the way of despair. Jesus is our only hope! SGM related churches failed some of us but God was not in that. He will never abandon His children. There is hope in Jesus!
Teen,
I am nearly crying, reading what you’ve written. Both for joy and for the pain you and so many of our younger SGMers and exSGMers have lived through and are now experiencing.
I rejoice in what God is doing in your life and the life of the others.
You wrote, “Yeh but being stubborn means you’re a self righteous rebel not submitting to authority and therefore is sin.”
Or it means you are submitting yourself to GOD, who is TRUTH and that you are not submitting yourself to mere men, who may search to usurp the Holy Spirit in your life. (Boy, that would TERRIFY me to get in God’s way in someone’s life. Talk about scary.)
Satan is the condemner of the brethern. If you hear condemnation, you know where that is coming from.
Love you, Brother. And if you or someone you know are in that place of contemplating suicide, would you PLEASE promise to me and this board that you will contact someone and wait at least 24 hours? Please, please, please, please? You seem to be a man of your word so I will feel better knowing you’d make this promise. (Feel free to call your friends to make this promise, too.)
thank you so much!
Thats what i am fully trying to do. and if i dont screen what i take away from the bible by “accountability” i will never know…and if i dont have accountability…GASP i am self righteous. I’ve gotten this from people in my family and outside. and it hurts!!
thank you!
Do not worry i am not considering suicide at all. Even if i really wanted to take my life.. it’d be so selfish of me to cause such harm to my family, friends, and well the girl i love. They are the ones who are going to be hurt the most with something like that. It will linger in their mind and hurt them. I dont ever want to hurt them.
Please feel free to email me if you want! Thank you so much for the support and amazingly encouraging words everyone!!
Never let what happened at SGM become the “story” of your life. They misapplied biblical truths and hurt many people because of their legalism and because of their pride and most importantly, because they did NOT listen to the Holy Spirit.
I have two children who grew up in SGM. By the grace of God I am praying that their wounds will continue to be healed and they will thrive in the Lord. I have tremendous faith that HE will do that work in them. I pray the same for you (teenwhoisnowfree) as well.
We really really really do serve a faithful God that loves us dearly and He has a GREAT plan for you. Why He allows some things to happen I’m not always sure, but I do know that the bad things that I have experienced have only made me trust Him more and it has strengthened my faith in a Savior that is sooooooooooooooooooooo much bigger than SGM.
I wish I could remember who told me what I am about to write but I can’t but here goes…..
A good way to tell if what is being said is condemnation or conviction is the following: if you feel like a hopeless pile of crap, it is condemnation and not helpful but if the response is to start thinking about how you can change and improve without feeling like fecal matter, that’s conviction and will help you to grow as a person.
Somewhere,
Ok. I am trying not to.
thank you
yes we do!!!!!
thank you for telling me this!
@ DB
Ok, well that sure sounds about right to what i’ve been feeling! i’ve a LOT of times felt like the only teen in the world who got where i was coming from. and then of course adults would give me the gentle “haha you’re making too big of a deal about this and you are only a teen and dont know the full story” laugh..
So of course whenever i’d find someone like that… i felt/ feel as if for each person i meet that understood where i was coming from and felt the hurt from the same thing (SGM/CLC) it felt like a pile of gold! Even got to the point where if someone was ok with dating young for a purpose of marriage came my way it felt like a huge pile of gold as well!
Some need to be “deprogrammed” from SGM’s way of doing things. I tell friends to just start reading the Bible. God will speak to you in it and He will show you how to do things. Incredible that God sent us a “Helper” in the Holy Spirit, but SGM thinks that they were sent as your “helper”. Not true! God speaks to us directly today and like I said before, He has a great plan for you!
DB, good description of condemnation (made me laugh). God’s Spirit is gentle to those who are seeking Him. He makes us desire change so that we can be more like Him. If we resist, He disciplines us for our good. He is a loving Father.
Somewhere,
thanks for that!! It helps to hear that!
Hi Teen,
One of the best ways to get over SGM is to attend another church. I don’t know how old you are or what your relationship with your parents is like, but if it would be OK with you and them to at least attend a prayer meeting or youth meeting at another church, that would help.
When I left SGM, I happened to join a small church that was very unstructured and missions oriented. What a culture shock! What I found out was::
1) That I had accepted a whole mentality of how to behave, relate to people, do ministry, and even think about God that was unique to SGM and not entirely healthy. Learning a new way to do things was both challenging and liberating
2) That the way leaders had dealt with me was seriously abusive and that I needed healing
3) That other leaders could clearly see my gifts and callings. That was very affirming
4) That SGM was not the best church in the area, as I had been led to believe, and that I could do well in other environments. Ultimately this helped me become more trusting of God’s work in my life and less dependent on a few leaders
5) That I had to go thought a process of evaluating my experience at SGM, remaining grateful for what was good and rejecting what was bad.
6) That although I appreceiate reformed theology, I am not a Calvinist, and this is not necessary to a good relationship with God.
I hope that helps If you are interested, I can refer you to the pastor in your area that put me back together when I crash landed in his church. He will understand what you have gone through. Even though I have moved to another state, he is still a good friend
Yes, i actually am attending a smaller church in the area and have felt more at home there.
Yes i am struggling with similar things. its hard when thats all youve heard your whole life.
Yes thank you for that!
Sure:) May actually be my current pator now
If you guys could continue in prayer for me id really appreciate it. Since leaving CLC i have not gotten away from being bullied, teased, shut up, slammed against the wall, etc. Not trying to be a like i guess “care hog” or anything..just today was another of those days where ha i really felt like i was pushing against a brick wall. Thanks all. Love every one of you. GASP i said the “L” word!
Praying for you, Teen.
You’re not a care hog.
Honestly.
When people are actually going through something, it takes a lot of time and prayer (trust me, I’ve felt that way but it isn’t true.)
There are people who care about you and will pray. Love isn’t a commodity that gets consumed, rather the more love there is the more it grows it is multiplied not divided.
Thanks guys!!!! :’)
Teen,
Not sure if this is the case, but it might be wise to seperate yourself from all of the SGM influences in your life. There are outstanding churches out there thay you can plug yourself in to where you can have real and authentic relationships with strong believers. Most teens your age who grew up in SGM have only been taught the “rules” and have not been taught how to live in the Spirit. Until that occurs in their lives you will never fit it (nor would you want to!).
Due to the current situation, i still have connection with SGM….Plus my gf has been my best friend and understand what im going through.
I am new here. I came to a SGM church, the one in north Denver called “Grace Community Church” having recently experienced a dreadful experience at another church. That former experience was deeply painful. After a year of not attending church, though truly in Christ, my wife and I began attending GCC in north Denver. David B. was pastor. We knew nothing of polity, organization, none of that. We just hoped, even yearned for the warmth that can come only from another child of God. Soon after we began attending GCC in north Denver, David B. resigned, citing “lack of a vision for the church.” The pastor’s stated reason was curious, to be kind, and highly dubious to be honest. Not a good start, but we were new and felt we had no part in Bendi’s choice, or whoever made that choice…
Soon a new pastor was introduced, a man from Gilbert. Glynn seemed to have a reasonbly Scriptural grounding in the Gospel, though somewhat mild. We decided to stay. The environment at GCC was cold, even forbidding at times. Much has been said about the inner circle observation so I will merely agree with the insider observation. Very chilly.
While I find the polity of SGM disgusting, I have a far more grevious charge to lay at the feet of SGM leadership. Instruction in the word of God, certainly at GCC in north Denver, is ZERO. Not just in a lull, or in need of focus, it is ZERO. The status of ZERO is by design, apparently. This, fellow saints, should not be. Bible studies were refused. What some of us know as “Sunday School” does not exist. There are care groups, but these are light years away from the eternal gain available from study of Scripture. Mid week studies are unheard of. I discussed this with the pastor, and he pointed to a program called “Forge.”
My friends, ”Forge” is not a study of the Scripture; rather, “Forge” was an attempt to call an activity “Bible study” while not really teaching. It included mandatory verse memorization, those who failed were subjected to push-ups. I attended one Saturday morning meeting. I was shocked at the nonsense I witnessed, and the pastor appeared to be the architect.
SGM, or specifically GCC in north Denver, does anything but teach Scripture. I was so dismayed and deeply saddened to see an “essentially Reformed” church treat the word of God as if it is dangerous. We have the papists for that.
I have no idea where to take my family for worship. What I do know is the SGM branch church in north Denver shamefully and purposefully omits the most valuable thing a person could ever possess, a growing love and comprehension for that which will “stand for ever.” Scripture.
Our Lord Jesus is indeed sufficient, I’m grateful for that.
Welcome, SoC. There are some others who have posted in the past that went to the north Denver church, hopefully they are still reading.
Son of Consolation,
I feel such sadness while reading your post. You have a heart for the Lord and expected those around you in the Denver church to want to draw near to Him as well. Your experience, unfortunately, sounds like many others. It is terribly tragic to join a church only to be made to fear to study the Bible because you could “get it wrong”. My husband and I saw that in our time in PDI/SGM. We left in 1997. ( W
We are presently living in a small town near Colorado Springs. If you wish to talk with us, please contact me at my gmail address: aftersgm@gmail.com . Maybe we can help. Are you serious about them making people do push ups? That is so humiliating. God’s heart is for you. Jesus knows just what you and your family need. God bless you.
Thank you Canary and Ellie. The “push ups” example I cited is literal. You had to memorize and quote, if you missed the quote, you were assigned immediate push ups. Others hovered over the failed memorizer and counted push ups, in unison, military style. It was designed to be “manly.” Sadly, it was the most silly display I’ve seen since youth group in the 1980′s. No teaching of Scripture was provided, none. What was provided was reading assignments in Gruden’s systematic theology book. I’m not against Gruden or his book, but that was as close as we got to studying the word of God. Study aides are wonderful, I use them regularly, but never, never as the center piece. At GCC, they then started an new Forge class for men, this time there is Bible study, but it is “self study.” Yes, the students are their own teachers, and from my observation many of these well meaning brothers are no where near being able to solo. I was floored to learn of this idiotic approach. Strong words, I know, but this is just shocking.
I brought this up to the pastor, and the associate pastor, or whatever his title is, and I was advised to hold my opions a bit more lightly. Translation “shush!” I don’t mind being shushed if I need it, but dear believers, too many of us take the passive route and allow nothingness to pass as any kind of scholorship in the Scriptures.
I know from experience, nothing, nothing is more costly than Scriptural ignorance. In this day of passive pablum, and incessant attacks on the family/marriage/Christianity, we should be ever more rooted in Truth!
Forgive me if I’ve spoken harshly, there are surely loving believers at GCC in north Denver, but the leadership is failing it’s flock. Whether or not Glynn has any say in allowing Bible studies, I know not; I just know they Bible studies are not tolerated in any discernable form at GCC.
I suspect this is a form of control. The price is too high for my family to pay. We left a month ago, dismayed.
SoC,
Welcome! Glynn has a reputation in Glibert, and I heard from a few people there who felt bad for what N. Denver was in for.
Imagine Jesus telling Peter to drop and give him twenty.
What I found staggering is the ridiculous confluence of ideals where an “essentially reformed” church, one who presumably would agree with the teachings of Spurgeon, Owen, Calvin, Luther, Edwards, et al., all of whom were certainly scholars of Scripture; and yet insist on zero biblical instruction.
The stupidity of this is akin to certifying ASE master mechanics and yet insisting they never make a study of an engine.
Glynn, CJ nor any other man can make any just defense of such an orchestration. This is orchestrated ignorance. My heart ached for those who were decieved into thinking they were in the heart of biblical understanding. My friends, hanging around the truth has no part in making the Truth part of your being. When confronted with real pressure from the enemy, an ignorant child pays a terrible price in depression, fears, anxieties, doubts, etc. When armed with Truth, we can stand on the inviolate and unalterable word of God; regardless of my own self worth or performance that day. I can say…I know I shall live because my Lord Jesus said “they shall live because of me.” SGM weelky deprives their congegants of such learning, and much more, in the name of doctrinal purity. This, naturally, leaves the heares with a pure comprehension of nothing.
Grace to you
When I saw that any of my spiritual growth and or biblical knowledge was made outside of pdi/sgm I knew it was time to go.
How people can put up with that for years and years is beyond me.
Don’t be dismayed SoC, rejoice that you have eyes to see and ears to hear the One Who is calling you and your family: )
Old Timer, what a refreshing thing to read, thank you so much. We find the immeasurable love of Jesus to be even sweeter in those times when the love of men grows cold. We continue our daily attention to His word, and during the time when we do not have a “church home” we continue to worship Him with our trust and focus on Him.
Many scoff at the situation I just described, saying to me “you should be in church, period.” I would love to, we are praying for leadership toward that end, but won’t give SGM another moment. It’s regrettable to say such a thing, but no less valid.
Grace and Peace
SofC,
Blessings to you from southern suburbs! The congregation across town was a piece of work as well, and you are welcome to write to me and/or Defender at Defended1 at gmail .com if you are curious about our history, or just have questions.
And fine fellowship is just down the road with Mr. and Mrs. Canary too! :)
I have to say, along with Old Timer, I rejoice at your clarity and grounding in God’s Word. Yet I also pray for you to find a passionate and Biblical place of fellowship and growth. It’s not easy for sure, but they are out there in the city and the foothills, I’m sure of it. And God gave us great riches as a family when we were between congregations for about 6 mos. and we had family church at home, and fellowship with loving brethren outside of a bldg’s stained glass and 4 walls.
As a former member of Ffx, and being a fan of CJ and LT before a member of PDI, I didn’t want to believe CJ was culpable for the abuse we endured under KJ and SS. But then, if, in your recent situation, CJ doesn’t know of the shoddy leadership of his GCC men, why not? And if he does/did, why does he allow it? And why is Shank allowed to go on as a so-called overseer, apostle, or whatever? This is the question no fan of CJ answers comfortably.
Welcome SoC,
I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. I live in Colorado Springs and have former SGM friends in Denver. I’m sure we can help you find a good church, and we’re here to help you and your family. God is greater than SGM nonsense, and many here can testify to God’s faithfulness and healing power. Don’t give up. It took me quite a while to recover completely and find a fantastic, Christ-like church. Feel free to contact me at jgcampbellco at gmail.com
Thank you friends, for your encouragement. We we are praying about finding a local church. We visited a Presby reformed church in Thornton, CO. The pastor was certainly friendly wanted to hear about our beliefs and what we were looking for… During that chat this pastor advised us of their tithing policy. Literally, he said those who fail to “tithe” in the old test. sense will face church discipline. So I confess the church search is something my wife and I are less than enthusiastic about. Still, we rejoice daily in knowing we are joint-heirs with Jesus
SOC, it’s a good thing you found out about that church’s policies now rather than later! After witnessing the nightmare that a dear friend of mine has gone through in leaving a PCA church, I would advise anyone to think twice before becoming a member of any church that requires making a vow or signing some kind of covenantal agreement. She was vilified, slandered, harassed, and finally shunned – completely cut off by people she thought were her friend. All because she disagreed with the leadership on some issues and felt it best to leave. They are convinced that she is reprobate because she no longer attends their church. A guy commented over at The Wartburg Watch this morning: “21 years reformed plus seven years and counting disentangling from them has taught me that the core deficit in reformed life and doctrine is love.” I think he’s right. That’s what my friend said about the people in her former church – Where is the love?
My spouse and I left SGM last summer after 30 years in 3 churches. We visited a few different kinds of churches at first but now we aren’t going anywhere. We’re going through a time of detoxing and re-evaluating pretty much everything we’ve been taught by SGM. It has been wonderfully refreshing. I feel like a new person – finding freedom in Christ that I never knew before and really getting acquainted with my Father. He has also provided some wonderful fellowship for us outside the walls of the institutional church that has encouraged us greatly. At this point, we don’t expect to ever join an institutional church organization again. We are members of The Church, the Body of Christ, and that’s all that matters to us. We are following Jesus, our head, and we’ll go where He leads us.
Son of Consolation, maybe think about removing the reformed filter from your church search. I was an elder in the PCA and spent years in SGM, so I know where you are in your thinking. Sounds like the Presby pastor is still practicing religion with his tithing stance–convienient for him, I’m sure.
Thank you Linns. I have come to the same conclusion. A church filter is necessary in evaluating, but there is a consequence to being too narrow. What I would require would be a non-arminian position with regard to interpretation of the Scriptures. Not speakiing eschatology, I’m thinking of salvation and the New Covenant. Oh yes, the pastor at the presby church also advised I would come under immediate church discipline if I chose not to have my two year old son sprinkled. I’m sure okay with those who do that, but coming under church disciipline for merely passing on paedo-baptism is a bit surrreal to me. No thanks.
I miss the familial relationships that I have enjoyed in the past (I moved to Colorado ten years ago). Glynn at GCC in north Denver pronounced “familial relationships are not built on Sundays, they require care groups.” I don’t know how a seeing and hearing man could make such a silly comment. I miss the kndred love that can be so meaningful.
Moniker,
After my husband and I left PDI in 1997, we became a part of a small house church of other refugees. For three years the Lord helped us all detox and heal. After that, we moved to CO. After five years, we still have not found a church that isn’t traditional. Most of the ones my husband has visited did not have the Holy Spirit present. We have found one, finally, where the Holy Spirit is truly present. It is too great a distance to attend regularly but at least we can go off and on to be refreshed.
It took us a long time to get to this place. The Lord taught us, like a dear Rabi. So where you are is a blessing. No one knows more about Jesus than Jesus! So let Him guide you. Eventually, there will be a part of the Body He will call you to but you will never again relinquish your freedom in Christ to any man. That’s what we have found.
I have found, through study, that Gentiles are free from obeying the laws given to Israel (such as circumcision and not eating certain meats) . The law, by the Holy Spirit, is written in our hearts. All things are lawful but not all things are profitable ( like drinking wine is freedom but being a drunkard is sin). As there is no mention of Gentiles tithing in the NT (that I have found – correct me if I’m wrong, with the proper verse), I consider tithing to be part of the old law. We give freely to others (which very often results in more than 10%!). This is our offering to God, given out of deep love for Him and others.
Any church that will discipline you for not tithing is a place to be wary of. However, if tithing being forced to tithe instead of giving an offering freely does not betray your conscience, go for it. Just be careful because there certainly will be other “laws” in a church like that which might not be so easy to swallow.
The Lord bless you and keep you as you move forward in Him. He will not disappoint you!
Sincerely, Canary
Sorry, my earlier post was meant for SOC. Duh, I’m only on my second cup of java…
SoC, when my wife and I exited our “perfect church,” (SGC) we spent 2-1/2 years out of the institutional church thing all together. We did a brief stint in the home church thing, but that didn’t get it either. We pretty much resigned ourselves to NEVER again getting involved in the Sunday morning obligation.
After, almost two years, of de-programming and starting pretty much from zero theologically—yes, wiping the what-I-knew-for-sure stuff off the board, Abba, faithfully gave us a wonderful yearning for community, real community, not the frozen chosen, judgmental, know-it-all, us and them TULIP crowd.
My theological icons began to tumble as HE became much more real and important than my theology. This will sound heretical to you—It would have to me 5 years ago—but the LIVING WORD became more important to me that the written word. Me hopscotching all over scriptural verses to prove that I was right and knew it all was passing away. I was once very capable of arguing that God elected some before the foundation of the world to be saved but predestine others to eternal torture before the foundation of the world.
Sorry about the length of this! Just want to encourage you to seek truth and follow it wherever it leads you. You will open the door to genuine, wonderful, loving brothers and sisters who don’t even know what a TULIP is. Try it; you can always rewind. J
Thanks for the replies and encouragement. I had no quarrel with theology at GCC in north Denver. Some of that is because I indeed hold to the doctrien of election, however most of why I had no quarrel was because there was so little teaching of truth. Certainly we would all profit from the ponderance of His word. It was rightly said (above in a recent post) that mere mechanical reading of Scripture for the purpose of supporting arguments is a dead end. The Living Truth, for me, comes from a daily trust in His provision of life for me and His unending love for me.
Several of you have commented on Jesus being sufficient in such a time as my family now has, and I stand with you on that, it is eterally true.
I appreciated the comments about tithing. I’m all for giving, as it is described in Scripture for us in 2 Cor chapters 8 & 9. So it was rightly said that the New Covenant makes no law regarding 10% or an amount, or a type of giving, nor any measure. I think the point is, we as Christians have received so richly of Jesus’ that it should be our joy to also give of ourselves. The book of Hebrews brings clear certitude as to all that was the Law. It is now obsolete and could make no one righteous. The Lord reveals truth in Galatians about keeping part of the Law. If we determine to select one law or a component of the Law, or any performance measure, and hope to commend ourselves to God, then we are obligated to keep all of the Law. That drives it home like a well driven nail.
I’m certainly richer for having heard from you all and having been comforted by you all. As is says in 2 Cor. ”comfort one another with the comfort you have been comforted with.”
Grace and Peace to you in Chirst Jesus
SoC,
We (Defended & Me) would love to fellowship with y’all, AND if possible point you to a church in the area. We are South East of the Denver area, Elbert county, near Elizabeth.
As far as Church Membership is concerned, I’m already a MEMBER. My name is in the Church Register.
It’s called the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Ahhh, Defender, that is medicine for a tried heart. What a precious and inpenetrably strong notion to carry to rest tonight. Bless you.
SoC, your #221 really resonated w/ me:
My friends, hanging around the truth has no part in making the Truth part of your being. When confronted with real pressure from the enemy, an ignorant child pays a terrible price in depression, fears, anxieties, doubts, etc. When armed with Truth, we can stand on the inviolate and unalterable word of God; regardless of my own self worth or performance that day. I can say…I know I shall live because my Lord Jesus said “they shall live because of me.” SGM weelky deprives their congegants of such learning, and much more, in the name of doctrinal purity. This, naturally, leaves the heares with a pure comprehension of nothing.
I started participating in a REAL Bible study last September, then we left CLC in November (there were many, many reasons; it was not b/c of attending a Bible study!). Having this study to be a part of has been amazing. I did not realize how much I was starving for the Word until I started to get into real study, handling the Word myself, listening to the Holy Spirit (heck, even remembering that I have the Holy Spirit in me!). I have really struggled w/ some of the problems you list in the quote above, and you are right, I was (emphasis on was) an ignorant child, and I really have paid the price. But, Jesus reigns in me, now I know. Not my sin, not my struggles. And it’s ok to go to a professional counselor to work these things out. And it’s ok to read my Bible and not constantly have the specter of Jeff Purswell hanging over me (or some other leader that is “smarter” than me) as I digest and pray over God’s word.
So many good comments above. You all have been very encouraging to me this morning.
Defender, I second your #234. We are in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Defender said, “As far as Church Membership is concerned, I’m already a MEMBER. My name is in the Church Register.”
A and MEN!
Two Feet Out, I read your post with a kindred understanding of your growth. I don’t read the Bible. I study or ponder it , in context, and I have no alternative but to say, it has changed me entirely. I’ve become aware of the folly of chasing an emotional feeling of being “right with God” merely because of my church attendance or adherence to a system. I’ve learned that even the darkest fears must, MUST flee from the potency of Jesus’ life in me.
Friends in Jesus, here is why I ache for those who are deprived of Scriptural teaching and it’s inevitable riches. I was “churched” in my formative years, big time. Dad was a deacon and Sunday school teach, mom was a teacher and ran the church (So Bapt) book store, we were fixtures in every event, meeting, you name it. Parents were disciplinarians, blah blah blah. We were as serious about “church” as most American families would ever be, for my entire childhood. HOWEVER, I was not taught Scriptural truth. I was lectured, sermonized, curltured, disciplined, and livd in a thoroughly “churched” environment.
All that church culture (I was a benefactor of knowing many loving people who meant well) carried virtually no impact when I became an adult. I joined the military for a stint in the US Air Force, went to college, then grad school, then early working days, and a marriage. During that time, the churched but not learned young man (me) was a huge partier, womanizer, deciever, arrogant selfish bar hopping fool. I married the wrong gal (by the way she probably married the wrong guy, too) and paid an awful price for that. Ultimately, I had a failed marriage where she abandoned me and left a financial mess.
I was so unarmed to deal with my own failings, I wanted to die. I was left with 100G in debt, no home, lost all my possessions in the divorce, and son on. My last night at that house was a dreadful war of words. She hated me - called the police due to my yelling at her (a joint battle).
All my churched experiences (not blaming old pastors…) carried no potency in my heart. I ended up being arrested, though that seemed petty to me, there I stood, churched and in a jail cell for a weekend. I faced a ”no contact order” meaning I could not go home, could not get my car, clothes… I faced the darkest depressive fears that I can imagine. I wanted to die, the way out of the mess was too steep.
How in the world does a young man reach this point? Friends, learn from this. I love church and deeply loving relationships that can come from that. However, being churched but not instructed and taught of the wonderful and POTENT truths of the word of God cost me a terrible price.
So, there I was, three college degrees, churched, and jailed. Odd combo? I suppose, but it was real, that was me. I prayed that first awful night in jail – “Lord, I’m hear because I have not cared to know you beyond formality. Give me a thirst for your Word.” God, in His mercy, gave a foolish and stubb orn child the one wise request had made up that point in his life (me). He gave me a thirst.
During the next three years I faced creditors (remember the 100g debt), friends that abandoned me, and bouts with awful depression. One day I had to add antifreeze to my car’s radiator. It’s deadly poison when consumed. My friends, I stared at that container of antifreeze for fifteen minutes. I was holding it, and was withing moments of giving up. I hurt so bad due to my own failures.
While I was fighting these awful thoughts, I was beginning to study, and it began to have impact on me. God lovingly revealed to me my identity in Christ! Oh!!! Where has this powerful eternal joy been in my life? I devoured deeply the unknowably beautiful and powerful truth that the Lord Jesus has already met my greatest need, He died for me, and He rose for me, and I’m saved by His life (Rom. 5:10)!!!! Like Paul, I can no longer be identified with failures, but rather, with what God has done in my life, by His blood.
My friends, this story embarrasses me a bit, but I don’t care much about being embarrassed because of the irrefutable potency of Jesus, even for a former failure and fool such as I was! Had I known of His life in me, had I known “while we were dead in our trespasses…He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.” That is Col. 2:13.
So, I know of the awful potential that lurks in the lives of those who think they can stand strong throughout life based primarily on their churchiness. I do not mock churches here, i’m saying, with great conviction, a church culture will never, ever be what Jesus will be for you.
SGM and GCC in north Denver will not permit Bible studies. I personally know of the indescribable joy and victory that came in my life and it is due wholly and entirely to Jesus’ shaping my heart by His word.
Today, God has provided a wonderful wife, home, repayment of every penny of debt, and two sons for me!!! OH!! I deserve nothing, none of this, none. But Jesus, being rich in mercy……………
Learn from this, and teach your children.
I’m sorry for the length. Grace to you
I’m prompted to add… GCC in north Denver, in my experience, and based on a few discussions with the pastors, does not host any Bible studies. They may have in the past, they may in the future, but not while I was there. That was around three years of “visiting.” I’m prompted to be fair with my remarks. The pastor there, Glynn, has a good grounding in the Gospel and I’ve heard this pastor present the Gospel in a way that is most honorable to Truth. The charge I lay against SGM is not related to him as a pastor, it’s a charge put against the organizatoinal leadership. Someone, somewhere, has made the incredible decision to not host Bible studies. None. Certainly, not in the true sense of teaching. They instituted something called “forge” however that was an unmitigated flop. You cannot treat so vital a subject as the word of God like a sophmoric summer camp.
Son of Consolation and Two Feet Out,
So encouraging to read your posts—your words are the soundings of liberty in Christ Jesus –the glory of His Word “In the beginning was the Word……..and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1)— His Living Word speaks to us, guides us, dwells within us, progressively sanctifies us…the wonder of becoming more like Him — Isn’t it wonderful to speak of the Lord, Who He is, and is in us—instead of focusing on sin, rooting out sin, seeing sin in others, depending on SGM leadership to be the ultimate validation for what is right and/or true…….and remembering our names are engraved in the palms of His Hands (Jer 49:16) and written in The Lambs Book of LIFE..!!!
I like how Stunned says ‘A and MEN’ !!!
SOC,
I was writing after your post #238 went up. BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL STORY OF REDEMPTION!
Thankyou for sharing your story with us— we overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony –that Christ lives in us, and brings restoration and redemption into our lives — The Lord continue to bless you and your household in His ever unfailing love
~Waters and family
Thank you, SoC. That was so beautiful.
“we overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony”
One of my favorite bible verses, Waters. Thank you for reminding me of it tonight.