Aug
16
Family meeting comments below…
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UPDATE 10/10/2010: At 650+ comments, this thread is now closed, as even at 50 comments per page it is becoming increasingly difficult to load for some and even more difficult to publish a comment as timeout errors are now occurring.
PLEASE POST ALL FUTURE KINGSWAY COMMENTS (in this thread) HERE AT THIS LINK, at a new post titled “The KingsWay Way 2″.
Here is the rundown.
AC began the meeting with an overview of the history of what he called the “KingsWay way” of doing things He declared that the way the leadership did things was wrong and caused pain for many people. He introduced SW who identified himself as a former pastor for the first ten years of the church. He acknowledged that he participated in the church’s heavy handed leadership approach and, as he would tell, actually became a victim of the same approach.
AC took the stage again. He led into the actual story of SW being sent to the Roanoke plant. SW came up and told the story. I won’t go into detail.
GE came up and acknowledged his wrongdoing in the whole episode and they both acknowledged that God had restored their relationship.
Then MW got up and shared his perspective and led the Q&A time. It got a little heated, but not too bad. There was a great deal of anger under the surface.
’nuff said for now.
Isn’t it interesting that under the surface is where reality lies? Under the surface often conflicts with our public faces. CO’s statement of a “…great deal of anger under the surface,” speaks loudly.
That sounds remarkably decent, Cautiously Optimistic. So is this a good thing?
People were not grandstanding. Some were making comments, but mostly good questions about polity, what happened, clarification, etc. People wanted to be heard and made it known when MW tried to shut things down after three questions. The meeting was three and half hours long.
Fred, I’m very sorry to hear there is still shunning in Chesapeake. I hope you haven’t been on the receiving end.
Cautiously Optimistic, mind if I ask a question? From what you described, the church members were not letting the leaders off the hook. Could it be that they are actually forcing these leaders to take responsibility for their heavy handed leadership? Okay, one more question: if the leaders were admitting to their mistakes, does that mean there might be change coming, or will the old polity still stay the same? I believe that when church members begin to hold these leaders to a higher standard, SGM will not be able to ignore the problems. Guess I still get hopeful that reform will come but have had my hopes dashed many times. :(
Thank you for the report! I’m sorry you are no longer optimistic.
Like Canary, one thing that stuck out to me was the length of the meeting, yet someone wanted to shut it down after 3 questions. {??} are you kidding me? (lol)
Kudos to whoever allowed or answered more than that. Or to those who kept asking questions no matter what.
2nd question – is there some reason only initials are used? What are the title/roles of these initial people, other than GE? I’m thinking since the whole thread is titled by his name we don’t need initials there, right?
One more thing came to mind, Cautious, if you dont mind…..any idea why this was called the KINGS WAY? and not SGM’s way? Is this a way of insulating the mother ship maybe?
just wondering……
Defended (and others)
You can find the answer to your questions here (http://www.kingsway.cc/pastorsandstaff.php) except for own person (SW)
Defended,
All of the initials are those of pastors at KingsWay, except for SW. Although I remember hearing about an ex pastor who got pooped on, I don’t recall his name.
This took only ten years to resolve. Amazing. I guess the three couples in Chesapeake can expect a call in 2019.
Sorry-Standing By was in moderation when I was posting.
Defended — not sure if this answers what you’re asking about KINGS WAY vs. SGM’s way, but here’s a little background. Back when all this happened, the name KingsWay was not in use. When the church was planted, they named it Southside Church of Richmond — a very poor choice of words in Richmond, as the old guard of the southern aristocracy equates the term “Southside” with “Dogtown”. Apparently this widely known piece of cultural trivia blew right over the heads of those who researched the area they were “evangelizing.” After a few years, they decided to change the name, and offered four choices to the congregation — only the second time I ever remember voting or being asked for input on anything. (The first was early on – they passed out a questionnaire that asked opinions on all kinds of things, and I believe they took those answers seriously.) We ”voted” for the one that seemed least ridiculous — and none of those choices was anything like “KingsWay.” A few weeks later, they announced that the new name would be “KingsWay” — trendy sic intended. We groaned.
My phone has rung off the hook today — several different perspectives have surfaced. Some thought that the twenty-something pastor’s handling of the Q & A time was simply because he was the least involved at the time and therefore more impartial. Others thought it inappropriate that he answered questions that should have been fielded by those who were directly involved.
I understand that people I love & applaud stood up and asked hard questions. I was also told, in several different ways, that the questions were not answered in specific manners — that they were not prepared to give a specific plan on how, exactly, they’d become more open and transparent, that this would be an ongoing process. The folks who called me were disappointed in that this meeting has been in the works for several weeks, if not months — plenty of time in which to put forth some specific actions to counteract and prevent further abuses.
I’m told that someone asked the definition of gossip/slander; that someone else asked for monetary compensation for the guy who lost mostly everything in this debacle; that someone asked if the apostle was planning to step down; that someone asked for SW to be reinstated; that someone in the congregation apologized for being inadvertently and inappropriately judgemental, that someone else asked the polity questions, another question was if this kind of thing is widespread within SGM (and all God’s Refugers said Amen) etc.
I understand that one of the finest men to ever be cut off from SGM was there, but did not say anything. When he was sent to plant a new church elsewhere, SCR/Kingsway lost a huge asset in godly, thoughtful, and respectful leadership.
Please understand that this information has come to me second-hand, but this was a public meeting and this is public knowledge. I was not there, but dear loved ones were there. Several wanted to know why one pastor (DW) was not up front with the others, but instead sat on the front row with his wife. Apparently, that question was asked, but not answered.
Not everyone had the same take on the reactions of the leadership, and none wanted to judge hearts, but all of them mentioned that SW exhibited a huge amount of grace, love, and forgiveness. My question to him would’ve been “Why the heck did you stay there after being publicly lied about, gagged, and shunned?” Someone asked something similar, and he answered to the effect that he felt that he should persevere, that the first 7 years were terrrible, but he was finally able to come to peace about it. (I hope this is not in any way an incorrect summation of what was intended.)
I also understand that their previous policy of not counseling a woman unless her husband was involved was going to change.
My own take? Unless the current polity structure changes from top down in SGM, the individual changes that pastors’ make on the local level will have little lasting effect. The root of this problem lies within the hyper-authoritarian structure. They can argue all day long that their structure is biblical – and it may well be. But other structures are biblical as well, and if the current papal / hierarchal / elevated clergy / business model has produced nothing but pain and destruction, maybe they ought to just try a different angle for a while! I’d call for complete repentence, restructuring, and restoration of the priesthood of all believers, for starters.
Ten years. TEN YEARS this man suffered mightily from being publicly chastised and lied about. The effect on his friends, his family, the church, and the perpetrators themselves cannot be fathomed. Thank God that this travesty has begun to be corrected. Thank God that He is the One who restores the years the locusts have eaten.
If this were, in fact, a local church with ruling elders and deacons, they’d have the option of voting to separate from SGM, as many churches within other denominations have done. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be probable.
Actually, what I’d love to see them do is POST THE UNABRIDGED MINUTES AND/OR SOUND RECORDING OF THE MEETING ON THEIR WEBSITE in public view. Now, there’s a step toward openness and transparency. SGM should do the same, as this situation created tidal waves, not ripples, throughout the denomination. (Yes, it is a denomination. If it quacks, it’s a duck.)
God is at work, friends, and He has a plan. Whether or not it includes Kingsway as a viable ”local expression” of His church remains to be seen.
Thank you, SAINTS of THE LORD! I admire the way my loved ones in Midlothian stood up for what’s right.
Silent Running— Thankyou, thankyou, for posting! Really rejoicing to hear the saints at Kingsway STOOD UP —and asked questions — and persevered —It is evident the Lord was with them, stirring them to do battle, in a sense, to bring the issues to light. How wonderful to hear the affirmation and restoration for SW. Praying Gods people at Kingsway will remain ‘awake’ and not be lulled to compliance by sgm corporate control.
God is shaking———- God is sifting——— He is on the Throne
Especially appreciate yor communication:
“UNLESS THE CURRENT POLITY STRUCTURE CHANGES FROM TOP DOWN IN sgm,
THE INDIVIDUAL CHANGES THAT PASTORS MAKE ON A LOCAL LEVEL WILL HAVE LITTLE EFFECT. THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM LIES WITHIN THE HYPER- AUTHORITARIAN STRUCTURE. ……….I’D CALL FOR COMPLETE REPENTANCE,
RESTRUCTURING AND RESTORATION OF THE PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS,
FOR STARTERS.’”
So far, sgm prefers the facade they have built of “the local church”.
Jesus is returning for a Bride ‘without spot or wrinke’— sgm, you have produced lied about, maligned, spiritually abused, broken sheep— will you bow to the Christ and repent of your maulings coming through authoritative polity structure??
Very good, silent. You were very accurate.
The leaders do not get that the polity is the problem. A twenty-something year old “elder” is the problem.
From Strongs:
4245 presbuteros…elderly; older; a senior; elder; old
When the NT refers to elders it means OLD PEOPLE!!!!!
You can’t declare someone to be a pastor and then say “and since the words are used interchangeably, he is therefore an elder.” That is backwards logic and a twisting of several languages.
First let me say I am glad that at Kingsway the leadership finally tried to make right some of their actions that happened a while ago.
One person indicated that Gene Emerson had knowledge of this going back a ways. I do wonder what the motivation was including what motivated Gene to finally admit some of this. Did the SGM Leaders have an epiphany or did something external push their confession such as the possibility of their actions being published somewhere like on one of these blogs?
Someone indicated that Brent D seem to spearhead what happened 10 years ago. It is possible that those under Brent D including Gene E. were that bullied by Brent that they were afraid to stand up to him while he was over them as an “apostle” in SGM? It is only now that they are able to correct this now that Brent D. is no longer a leader and can’t be a bull over them? If so, it goes to show the problem with having single people in charge at various levels with no accountability etc. or again show the problems SGM Polity creates.
Just for clarification, I am just hypothesizing since I don’t have any inside information.
Silent Running, thank you for sharing. It is absolutely mind boggling that people can behave in such an atrocious way and there seems to be such little consequences for their behavior. If their own three year olds had not been careful at the dinner table and spilled their milk after being warned not to, they would have been treated much more severely than CJ and the apostles and other pastors in this situation. Why is this? Why is no one calling for justice in this case? Mercy truimphs over justice, yet injustice does NOT trample justice and until these men repent in ashed and sackcloth, tearing their clothes and TURNING FROM THEIR SINS IN ACTIONS AND DEEDS, then Mercy has not triumphed over justice, merely injustice has trampled justice.
Silent Running – great report and comments!
Your heart clearly cares for these people and their walk with Christ – and integrity in leadership!
So, is it safe to sum up that Gene Emerson had NO real response or display of remorse for what he did to this former pastor and the lack of reconciliation for TEN YEARS??
if that is the case, what in the world brought about this meeting? Why didn’t Gene let it continue into perpetuity? He and his underlings clearly could sleep at night.
Here is what led up to this meeting.
For many years there have been appeals to let SW tell the real story of what happened. For many years he was under a gag order put in place by Brent and by Gene. With the removal of Brent, a door opened and a group of solid, mature men (the men that probably would be lay-elders if we had such a thing) started meeting with Gene and the other pastors to make them aware of the hurt that was done to SW. It took a year, but Gene came to the place where he realized the wrong and was willing to let the entire story come into the open. This is a big step, but only a first step.
There are great concerns that foundationally, things have not changed….the pastors are the only elders….there is no accountability outside of that bubble. The congregation now questions all the decisions made by the leadership over the last 20 years. They see the problem with a lack of congregational involvement. The leader have promised more transparency and more involvement…only time will tell. The problem is that people are leaving. Good people…mature Christians who, collectively, have decades of experience. And perhaps, the older ones should leave and take their wisdom to a variety of churches, new and old and bear fruit in different places, strengthening the body rather than be cooped up in a church that has too great a propensity to control them.
Not Very Optimistic
Thanks for sharing the details.
Stunned and Defended
You make good points. If Gene Emerson did what is said and kept it suppressed for as long as he did wouldn’t his actions (or lack of action) show significant character problems or inability to lead? Wouldn’t this show that he should step down at least from being a regional leader for a period of time? Wouldn’t this even be the honorable thing to do?
It sure seems like there are double standards in SGM. Some leaders in SGM have family problems and they are allowed to remain in leadership (like Mahaney’s brother in law) where with others it is used to force them out. Here this has finally come out about Gene Emerson when he recently had the VA Beach tragedy that he was involved with. It sure sounds like he should step down.
Time to lose the “called and gifted” mumbo jumbo and determine who is qualified, unqualified, and disqualified. THAT is the Biblical standard.
“But Jim, Gene did the right thing! Why criticize him now?”
Because in this case, he did the WRONG thing for 10 years. He did not bring the issue to light on his own accord because he was under conviction. A group of heroes worked for a year to make this happen. ONE YEAR.
A man’s life was ruined. “Oh gee, I’m so sorry.” What are the consequences for Gene’s actions?
It’s time for SGM to develop a doctrine of pastoral qualification and disqualification based on character, and de-emphasize the “ability to lead”, “administrative gifting”, and all the other business crap that has seeped in.
The Church is desperately seeking qualified (according to Scripture Alone), men of character. They will be followed as they follow Christ with no need of a carrot or a stick.
Over the last two years, I’ve had the privilege of witnessing pastoral repentance within SGM. Unfortunately, I’ve seen a pattern emerge in a small number of situations.
“Bro, you did such and such”. “No, I never did such and such.” “Bro, you really did.” Evidence is presented, and conversations go on for months. “Oh my gosh, I really did do such and such-I’m so sorry”. “Good job, bro.”
SGM needs to get ahead of this. Your move towards what you call autonomy still has requirements. Documents must be agreed with and adhered to.
Your next document should address qualification, disqualification, and handling of accusations against an elder. The carrot, stick, and “because we said so” will not serve you in the years to come.
Jim
Good points. Apparently Gene E. when approached on this issue didn’t show the humility that is taught in Philipians 2 or other passages. Of course without his being accountable to a group of other men Gene E. was allowed to see things as being right in his own view which happens with most people.
I am surprised that these group of men that kept bringing this situation weren’t “asked” to leave Kingsway as so typically happens when one disagrees with those “above” them in SGM. I am glad they were able to team up and get some action. Sadly men that question like this typically don’t stay around that long in SGM.
Allowing another regional “apostle” to do what he did and suffer no consequences isn’t sending the right message to other leaders in SGM. Yes I know of another regional “apostle” whose actions were questionable and initially denied what he did who suffered no consequences. I am sure that others leaders will continue to think they have immunity seeing such little happen to Gene E. Fortunately SGM Leaders fear that their actions may be reported on one of these blogs at least helps keep them in check.
Again a lot of this goes back to SGM Polity. Despite the group’s leader saying he is the “worst sinner he knows” and all this talk about “indwelling sin” there appears to be little checks and balances for leaders. If one looks at what happened to regular men in the Stanford Prison Experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....experiment ) one can see how dangerous giving one power can be. Maybe this is why scriptures talk about obeying leaders (plural) vs. leader. Again with all the talk SGM does about “indwelling sin” and “worst sinner” they would have more checks and balances. Sadly SGM is saying they believe one thing but their actions show they believe something else.
Jim said, “Because in this case, he did the WRONG thing for 10 years. He did not bring the issue to light on his own accord because he was under conviction. A group of heroes worked for a year to make this happen. ONE YEAR.”
I have to say that it is and has continued to be ASTOUNDING to me how callous sg’s leaders are to the conviction or sensitivity of the Holy Spirit concerning their OWN behavior! Honestly, could that thing about being God’s own agent in their mind must be so real and so deep that it silences the Holy Spirit’s voice in these guys’ minds? From CGL on up to apostle, HOW do all of these men see the sins of others, think they are confessing sins of their own and NOT see how they sinfully damage others? Or even seeing the sin of micr0-managing other people – being Jesus – as a sin? I was criticized for not having a “healthy self-suspicion” – by someone who persecuted me – and in 6 yrs that couple has NEVER considered what they said or did to us as sin! Even the leaders who participated in kj’s ousting have never asked or considered how they might pursue reconcilliation with us. Instead I have seen various ones within the former leadership want to somehow tell us that they are in the fellowship of victims of that abuse, but NONE have come to us in any inquiry of whether or not they participated in our abuse.
So is this just innately systemic? Is it literally taught? Is this the result of the so-called scholar’s paper on polity? Is the fear of the Lord so eliminated from their thoughts and behavior?
Is this a real deception? If not, what is this blindness? I would honestly like to know.
Jim, outstanding statement here from August 17th, 2010 at 9:34 am:
“It’s time for SGM to develop a doctrine of pastoral qualification and disqualification based on character, and de-emphasize the ‘ability to lead’, ‘administrative gifting’, and all the other business crap that has seeped in.”
Therein lies one of the big, fat nasty veins from a cancerous practice in SGM: retrofitting American business practices–no matter how ungodly those practices have become–into their theology and how the church operates (a.k.a. polity).
Why must these leaders continue to issue half-apologies (which in the end are non-apologies) while desperately clinging to their (and defending each other’s) jobs?
How refreshing it would be and what a positive message it would send if these men put their money where their lip-servicing mouths are and resigned! What price is too dear to pay for doing everything you could to rescue the church, and not your own skin? At what point do you become cognizant of how severely you have wrecked the sheep and left them for dead, and then stand center-stage with mealy-mouthed speech about how sorry you are (for getting caught) and change zero practices in your hearts, minds and spirits? At what point to you become cognizant of eventually answering to a holy God for such behavior? Is grace that cheap to you, yet you see fit to name your organization Sovereign Grace Ministries?
I see no crowns being cast at the word “sovereign” and “grace” is just a word used to rubber stamp so much crap being shoveled, bought, and sold. For once, try to rescue those words “sovereign,” and “grace,” and let your sheep stop paying the price for such ribald egos and chest-pounding.
Email after email, conversation after conversation, tear after tear and sob after sob, I am so sick and tired of how the sheep are bound up like prisoners and at the same time cast about like free floating ships bashing into each other on stormy seas because men up on stage and in the audience nurse their pride, coffers, and Americanisms dressed up in the emperor’s new clothes of your organizational semantics!
This is the church you treat like this! What does this say of your treatment of the Savior, when you keep tracking muddy footprints on the veil and train of His bride?
Have some dignity, repent, and for the sake of the sheep you at least pretend to love and care about, step down. Anything else is mockery.
–Protestant Knight
PK,
You’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.
TEN YEARS.
Gene, do you not understand how hard it is to think the best in this situation?
Jim: “PK, you’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.”
Then God help them, Jim, and I sincerely mean that with every fiber in my mind, body, and spirit. God help them reconstitute that conscience; that this searing not remain a permanent thing and that God raise their conscience from the dead. Because the price paid for that seared conscience is a dry, and disease-ridden field full of wandering or dead sheep while the shepherds are off somewhere else, mimicing each other, and busy arguing over whose statue is higher and grander.
I don’t care how graphic or grotesque my language has been; I’m being kind. Some of us have to have the guts to survey the land and pray for rain and food for these flocks; and bring in new shepherds willing to take on any amount of suffering and hardship to protect the same flocks.
–pk
If these SGM Leaders don’t like seeing their actions reported on the blogs for everyone to scrutinize what do they think it will be like when they have to give an account which is the other part of Hebrews 13:17 that goes along with what most bible translate to say “obey” your leaders.
When something like this happens wouldn’t it call for the group (starting at the top) to do some type of “Monday morning quarterbacking?” That is shouldn’t they do some serious introspection to ask what allowed this to happen in their group and what changes they NEED to make to prevent this from happening again. They should also ask themselves what other “skeletons in the closet” are out there?
I am sure there is not just one reason for something like this happening. Especially when this happens with one of their regional “apostles” it shows they must have a real organizational problem that allows something like this to happen. Something needs to be changed or this will continue.
People have talked about SGM polity being a big contributor. Something similar is what some call a “submissive pyramid” where those who move up in the organization mostly based on how submissive and obedient they are to those above them. Another thought is the group’s teaching and definition of what they consider “gossip” or “slander.” Many times for one to question a leader or policy is considered “slander.” I am sure there are other reasons.
The MEN and women of Kingsway determined to STAND UP and ENGAGE and enter the battle for justice— Saints, remember— “Righteousness and Justice are the foundations of Your Throne” (PS89:14). When righteousness and justice are trampled on and perverted under the banner of the Gospel—-I dare say God rises up off His Throne and stirs the hearts of His people to do battle.—–This battle and Family Meeting has exposed layers and layers of the effects of sgm polity in the above posts.
Jim, you said what I have often thought in my heart and cringed “You’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.” This is a fearful thing, indeed. For us, we can only ask this question because of experience—both in the Chesapeake travesty (all pastors and 3 ‘apostles’ –Emerson,Shank and Harvey —requiring women to remain with abusive husbands etc etc.) We have a close friend whos’ daughter was counseled by an sgm pastor to overlook the sins of a perverse husband for almost ten years. Destruction came and the pastor never took responibility. Blind to what even the unsaved would call
outrageous and cruel.——When Holy SPirit is continuously usurped by the power/doctrine of man—-a lessened sensitivity to the Lord occurs and then a result of a seared conscience can transpire. Frightening indeed. Deliver Your people, O God.
Rise up O Men of God!
Looks like the Saints in Kings Way have released the opening salvo. (AMEN! Brothers and Sisters of Kings Way, you are not alone, We stand with you!)
Remember, It is Jesus who is the ONE and ONLY head of the Church, and Captain to the Host of Heaven. (Not Gene Emerson.)
From here, I see men with a seared conscience, as Jim said.
They have dismissed the Holy Spirit in their lives.
That is a serious problem, as we know, only the Holy Spirit Sanctifies, Teaches, Comforts, Convicts, and leads to Repentance.
The term “Depraved Mind” comes to my memory. If these men do not turn back, soon, God may turn them over to a depraved mind and destruction. (They have been messing with His Bride. I think He is gonna be really ticked, don’t you think?)
PK, I see you have donned your armor again.
I do love you my brother, I’m proud to stand side by side with you.
Defender
One of the more interesting things for me, as someone who grew up in KW and has since moved on, was how MW didn’t seem to “get” what a big deal the meeting was or the significance of the anger and pain and questions asked. He didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.
AC, I believe, seemed to get it. GE kept slipping back into describing SW as being in “sinful unbelief” and that was curious–if he was apologizing, he needed to be consistent. He also didn’t apologize to the KW congregation for lying to them for 9 years–something that should have happened. And SW seemed to try to forgive GE on the part of the church, which smears his integrity with the whole thing, in my perspective.
At least the meeting took place.
Thankyou for posting, Amygirl.
Are you saying GE didNOT apologize for “withholding information” (deceiving,lying) to the congregation for 9 years??? And he DID point out, more than once, SW’s “sinful unbelief”????? And SW “seemed to try to forgive GE on the part of the church…”— ok—that all sounds like familiarly orchestrated sgm leadershipspeak. How much was puppeteered and how much was genuine??? (really, I wonder…)
Young MW ”didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.”
This is the frightening ‘heritage’ of sgm baton-passing (much touted by cj).
Where are the young men who have a fire in their spirit fueled by the love of God —and not quenched by sgm polity religousness. Ugh—thats a ‘nuther story……….
GE apologized to SW, but not to the congregation. SW accepted his apology, before the church.
Thankyou, Amygirl, for clarifying.— Any perspective on why GE would not apologize to the congregation (for these transgressions had greatly grieved many of the congregants)??
And P.S.— PK, your post above @1:24— excellent confrontation for righteous anger. Thankyou for defining sgm polity/leadership for what it is.
Thankyou for no “spinning” or nebulous verbage. Truth — sometimes its like cold water in the face——- needed to wake us up…….
Speculation: probably GE isn’t willing to give any more ground than is absolutely necessary (SW had grounds for a lawsuit, the congregation doesn’t).
But I’m not sure speculation is profitable on this point.
True that— GE’s actions speak clear enough.
PK – Brilliant post as usual. I was going to stay away from this one but find I cannot resist.
I certainly don’t feel I have anything to add as PK has so skillfully layout but wouldn’t mind speaking to your statement: Why must these leaders continue to issue half-apologies (which in the end are non-apologies) while desperately clinging to their (and defending each other’s) jobs?
I totally agree with the half-apologies which are not apologies but the false humility that is attached to these apologies is also appalling and the fact that people blindly accept this expression of false humility without the fruit of God’s grace in their lives.
While they desperately cling to their jobs – is illuminating because many of the pastors/leaders do see themselves in a job or a professional vocation which is far from what Jesus intended. Jesus raises up shepherds after his own heart. Too often the church raises up leaders, administrators and pastors to lead and care for the church after their own hearts (or vision). As a result too much of the church has hirelings not shepherds.
A hireling is first and foremost concerned about his livelihood (his job) which takes priority over the needs of the flock. Many of you have heard me say before that a professional pastor is not that much different than a professional politician – at some point job security has a greater priority than serving those they have chosen to serve.
This leads to all kinds of additional problems as well. The professional pastor has to keep a certain façade and piousness (or religiousness) to hide the reality of who he really is. And if the hierarchy would know who he really is there is the fear of being disqualified. They live double lives – the one they project and the one they know in their heart of hearts. They have to be yes men because to disagree with those over them would appear as a lack of maturity and lack of dizzernment (oops discernment). So each pastor lives with an inner fear they will be found out and disqualified.
And to the last point – and “defending each other’s jobs”; I can give you more examples that I care to of men who turned on other men in vicious and underhanded ways when they saw the way the worm was turning. It is one of the ways they get rid of men that disagree with them. The manipulation is off the charts. They appeal to men’s selfish ambition and they are revered when they help the apostles remove a trouble maker within the ranks. I could go on and on about this but I will pass this time around.
Certainly those at the top do what they have to do to protect each other. One of the scriptures that was used when I was a PDI pastor that was (and is) used quite inappropriately; “Be on guard yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood” The priority in this scripture in their minds is first be on guard (for) yourselves and then the flock; Hence the elevation of their own importance over the flock.
What they forget is the shepherd lays down his life for the sake of the sheep – they got the ‘be on guard for yourselves” but sadly forget what a true shepherd really is. What I read and see through the comments and posts doesn’t surprise me about what is going on with Gene and the others. What does surprise me is that leaders last as long as they do in the SGM churches.
Amygirl — hope you’re growing and going in grace these days!
To those who were there: Did anyone ask about other suspicious pastoral exits over the years and if we were told the truth or only half-truths in those situations? Oh, there are so many questions.
I particularly remember a beloved red-headed caregroup leader who decided to go to another state and plant a new church. The SrPastor announced from the pulpit that he could not support such a move — which was a pretty strong condemnation. Several folks bailed out at that time — and some who stayed were hoping to have this issue discussed at Sunday’s meeting as well. I understand that, years later, when the couple returned to town for a visit, GE apologized to them personally. But to my knowledge, and PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong and man, I do HOPE I’m wrong, there was no retraction or apology from the pulpit to the congregation for the public condemnation of their ministry. How can any Christian oppose, condemn, or otherwise fail to support the spread of the gospel?
Where do these people get off thinking they are to pronounce approval or disapproval of someone else’s perfectly moral, perfectly legal, personal actions? Language that measures the “sins of unbelief and pride” is reprehensible. We are all guilty of unbelief. We are all guilty of pride. Who can quantify it? Why would anyone try?
If we use the logic of subjective sin measurement, then we could confidently say that those who’d disapprove of a new church plant are, themselves, guilty of unbelief in God’s power and ability to plant new churches. How arrogant it would be to voice such a condemnation. How wonderful it would’ve been for everybody involved if they could’ve said, “You know, we don’t understand all of this, and the idea fills us with fear and trembling — we think you’ve got about as much chance as David against Goliath — but buddy, we’re behind you all the way and we’re gonna send you off with prayer and a few hundred bucks to help you get started. And if it doesn’t work out, come on back and minister with us again, because we love you.”
About 20 years ago, there was an unexplained sudden departure. A man who’d moved his family to Richmond with the original church plant team had gone to the prequal to the Pastor’s College, and expected to become the next administrator when the position became available. But he was passed over for someone who had NOT gone to the Pre-PC. This family simply disappeared from the church with no explanation. Maybe there was a reason this person was or was not qualified for the position – but it would sure be nice to have known the truth. It could have been told with discretion. There probably aren’t many people around the church that remember that, but maybe it’d be good to get the air cleared on that one, too.
Over the years, many were put in the awkward position of having someone say to them, “We sure do miss you doing ___________in the church these days. Wish you’d still serve in that position.” ‘What their hearts heard was “Why’d you duck out on the responsibility of using your gifts?” But the truth was that they’d have loved to continue serving, but were dismissed or replaced by the pastor’s whim– and weren’t free to say so because it’d be considered disloyal, prideful gossip or slander.
There are secrets that should be kept. There are matters of discretion. These aren’t those kind of matters. KW – you’ve made a great start on coming clean. Keep going. Read the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. If you’re like me, you’ll recognize yourself both as a perpetrator and a recipient, and healing can begin.
When I first started reading the blogs about 18 months ago, I was fairly confident that nobody from Kingsway was commenting here — everyone I knew looked so status-quo, SGM gung-ho, right down to speaking Gene-ese, homeschooling, and living in the Promised Land — oops, Walton Park.
But you proved me wrong — and I’m so glad to know that you came to that meeting prayed-up and prepared — that you were honest, loving, and courageous on Sunday night — that you stood up and asked hard, thoughtful questions.
Love to all of you.
Waters – exactly right here:
Young MW ”didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.”
This is the frightening ‘heritage’ of sgm baton-passing (much touted by cj).
Where are the young men who have a fire in their spirit fueled by the love of God —and not quenched by sgm polity religousness. Ugh—thats a ‘nuther story……….
That triangular submission thing is so very alive and well!
As I looked at that babyface in the pictures on the website, to get straight the initials, I couldn’t help but think about the fact that, 10-15 yrs from now, unless his wife has Mahaney as a maiden name, MW could find himself in EXACTLY the same place as SW if he crosses the wrong person! How could he not remember and think about how this man was viewed – (when he was, what? 14?) when he was in the congregation with just his aspirations?? Does he really see himself as bulletproof from this same kind of abuse? He better look around because I’m willing to bet finer men than himself have been persecuted and de-throned and he is NOT as invulnerable as he thinks! Has he not read the Proverbs about thinking you are standing right before falling?
(where’s that self-suspicion when it could really come in handy?)
Irv said:
“While they desperately cling to their jobs – is illuminating because many of the pastors/leaders do see themselves in a job or a professional vocation which is far from what Jesus intended. Jesus raises up shepherds after his own heart. Too often the church raises up leaders, administrators and pastors to lead and care for the church after their own hearts (or vision). As a result too much of the church has hirelings not shepherds.”
One other problem (and has been mentioned before) that perpetuates leadership abuse and prevents some of those in leadership from questioning things they know they should is they are dependent on SGM for their support. That is how they make their living. Many would be hard pressed to
One advantage of having lay elders aren’t on the SGM payroll is that they aren’t dependent on SGM for support. In fact SGM is dependent on them for the support they give in tithes and offerings. It is a lot easier for someone to question things and bring up issues when he knows it won’t have an affect on his livelihood.
Thus another argument lay elders. As one pointed out, there was a lay group that pushed this issue and pressed Gene on what he did. From what I understand none of these men were on the SGM payroll. It sure makes the argument for having elders that aren’t on the SGM payroll.
Silent, a hearty “AMEN” to the affirmations for the people at KW who were “honest, loving, and courageous” on Sunday night! Their voices, engagement, and God-honoring perseverence is HUGE. Do you hear their voices sgm??????????????? The voices are coming from the Bride — the Bride you seek to control and manipulate and lie to, in order to perpetuate your corporate agenda. Why oh why do you not have the fear of God in your uncovered patterns of absence of compassion,discernment,care,truth………..
Will you continue to schedule “Family Meetings” offering nebulous ‘apologies’ and continue on in your abusive manner???? Thats called a “whitewash”. Read about it in the B-i-b-l-e. Please.
Grown men who are church leaders being bullied by their leaders into lying, deceiving, not speaking the truth and not standing on the side of the weak?
I have seen more strength, courage and loyalty from 5 year olds on the playground, standing by their friends or standing up for what is right, no matter the consequences. SGM people, why do you stand under mere child/men when there is a world of better people, better human beings, humans who love God and love the world and His people? I have never asked this before, but this if this report is only partially true, this is disgusting and vile and I cannot understand how one person could be left standing in an SGM church once they know what kind of evil and deception is going on at the highest levels. And don’t even for a second think that CJ’s hands are not dripping with the blood of the people at Kingsway on this one. I can hire an assassin to go do my dirty work, doesn’t mean I’m not guilty because I tell him I don’t want to know the specifics. (Which I assure you he’s been told, whether he wanted to listen to the person tell him this or not.)
CJ, thou art the man.
I shake and I quiver inside my soul and inside my being. God has already begun a great work. A great work of repentance. One which CJ must hear. One which he MUST embrace and accept, along with the painful barbs that come with it, along with the agonizing realizations of what he has wrought in the lives of thousands of souls. CJ, you MUST repent. In loud wails and tears. In bitter gnashing of teeth. You MUST fall on your face before him and before every soul that you have affected. Time and again. In every hall, in every high place, in every low location where you have spread out your arms and declared God is Lord, while at the same time trampling His beloved, His sheep, the apple of His eye.
You must spend the next years of your life going to the ends of the earth, seeking out those you have harmed, have damaged, have misrepresented the Lord to. You must not rest until this work is done. CJ, I fear for you. I fear for your soul. I fear for the ears you have stopped up against the cries of the people (not YOUR people CJ- God’s people and His creation), for the eyes you made blind to the pain and suffering of the people of God, of the people of this world.
The Lord will tarry and prepare you, but He will not wait forever. There will come a day that will be uglier than all of the repenting you need to do… if. If you do not respond to all the cries, from the tiniest voice to the loudest. From the men to the women. From the smallest of babies to the eldest of the people. To those who have gone to those who are still with us. You must hear what the Lord is saying through His people and through His creation. You have taken things on yourself you ought not to have ever taken on. Now repent, dear brother, repent.
Forget the great things you think of and want. Forget those and think only to love. Love. LOVE. Learn what that is. Go to children. Learn of them. Go to women. Learn from them. Go to hospices and homes for the elderly. Humble yourself. Determine that you will do nothing but learn. Learn and serve in the “lowliest” of ways. This is greatness in the sight of the Lord.
Me too, Stunned, me too. To be in the position to long for Him above all else—
and thus, rest in Him…. both in battle and in peace as we journey……..
“Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
For He is our God,
And we are the people of HIS pasture
and the sheep of HIS Hand.” (PS 95:7)
Beautiful, Waters. Thank you. Time to drink in His words, I think.
Thank you Waters and Stunned. So true, all of it.
My comfort, re: abuse of the Bride is that God is a jealous HOLY God.
It’s in the context of reaping and sowing that He says “I am not mocked”
God DOES protect His name, His reputation, and this abusive system MUST implode because it ultimately is an assault on God Himself.
As for the precious souls of all those who call themselves leaders in sgmville, well that’s where my heart breaks that they have hardened their hearts against God’s people, and can’t even hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit concerning His precious children.
Waters, that passage is part of a very old Ted Sandquist worship song (from the 70′s?) that I grew up in the Lord singing. I think I’ll sing it again just now; thanks.
Yes, I was singing it too, Defended! Gods ‘heart’ is so often heard in the Psalms — what a beauty we have to read His Word to and over us…………….
Jim or PK, or whoever runs this blog now – where can I find out what Jim meant by this comment ? “I guess the three couples in Chesapeake can expect a call in 2019.”
One thought occurred to me about Gene Emerson is that he has been around and working for C.J. Mahaney since the group’s beginning when it was called Gathering of Believers in 1977 or maybe even earlier. With that being the case Mahaney knows he can trust Gene E. to do what he wants him to do which might not necessarily be the right thing but what Mahaney wants. Thus IMO Mahaney wants to have someone he can trust (maybe even control) and thus would be reluctant to force Gene Emerson to step down unless there was real pressure to.
I am sure that a similar situation exists with Steve Shank.
True…we Christians have that propensity to want to look to a man-king instead of the King of Kings…..Perhaps that is why in Revelations, the One Who is described as
“….His Voice like the sound of many waters…..and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”(Rev 1:15,16),
implores to each of the category of CHURCHES to……”He who has an ear, let him HEAR
what the SPIRIT says to the churches.” (Rev 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22).
Stunned, I am effected by your post — you have brought to light the reality of the
Holiness of God…..and His great love and defense of His own. —— He is a Redeemer—
He goes after—rescues—and restores His own. And HE hears the cries of His battered
Bride– even when sgm and the bigboys on the Gaithersberg hill do not.
Nauseated
To answer your question, it took about 10 years for what Gene Emerson did to the ex pastor to come to light and for Gene Emerson to at least partially admit the wrong he did. Jim was facetiously indicating that it might be 10 years before Gene Emerson admits his errors at the VA Beach Church which would be 2019 (10 years from when it happened).
I wish, wish, wish that with all my heart I desired to have God as my king and my only king. I wish that I wanted no other man to follow. Oh how I wish I could say with my entire being that it is God alone that I want to be my leader. But it is scary.
It is so scary. That would mean trusting Him to do His work. I can not see Him. I can not hear His voice audibly. I must simply learn to trust Him to lead my gut and bring good, honest intergrity filled friends into my life to encourage me. “Encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today (I’ve never met a day not called today yet) so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” Funny, we all think that having someone around to tell us of our sin will keep our hearts soft to the Holy Spirit and will keep us from sinning. Turns out it’s the ENCOURAGEMENT of others and His kindness that leads us to repentace.
But do we have the COURAGE to believe that? I know I don’t. I want a man to tell me. I want someone to confirm to me that what I am doing is right. I want the assurance that I will not sin (HA like that could ever not happen for an hour of my life!). I want protection from myself and from others. You see, I fear. I fear in great big capital letters. “Fear not, for I care for your soul” means little to me. I fear and I fear and I fear. Seems the only time I am not fearing is when I am too busy being arrogant. (Gee, don’t you want to be a part of my world?)
“Have I not commanded you, be strong and courageous” is what God said to the people as He was preparing to lead them into the promised land. To lead them in without a king. They took the city of Jericho with some horns and I’m guessing a coupla old (my age) priests leading the way. Yet they still wanted a king, though God promised their king would take their sons and daughters for his own service and that they would regret it.
They still didn’t trust the unseen God. They still wanted someone to tell them what to do, where to go, how to do it.
Please dear God, change my heart so that I trust YOU and YOU alone. That I cry out for no king, that I long for no one more than you want me to. That you and you alone are all I need.
Stunned
Stunned, just the fact that you desire to desire God alone is sufficient…the Holy Spirit will do the work. He is so faithful.
He is good, Canary. Thanks so much for the encouragement. Not always easy to speak or do what He is showing us to do. But obeying His prompting is best.
In answer to the statement that Gene might apologize for his part in Va Beach/Chesapeake in 10 years: I hope the 3 couples don’t hold their breath! It seems that there was a group at Kingsway who put pressure on Gene to apologize. I would be most surprised if there was such a group in Chesapeake! Since the fallout in 2009 -2010 , there has been one faithful soul, a prophet indeed who seems to be standing alone for Truth in Chesapeake.
Fred— It is amazing there has not been any offered apologies from Gene E to the
“3 Couples” in Chesapeake. These couples were advocates for women who had been pressured and bullied by ‘pastors’ to remain with abusive husbands. The 3 Couples
uncovered KB’s attempt to implimate a new sgm doctrine (with Purswells help)
that would require women to never separate from an abusive spouse (or face church discipline/ ex-communication). For this, the 3 Couples were branded as “in sin” by Gene.
Hmmmmm actually—this is very much like KingsWay— GE didNOT come to ask forgiveness of SW on his own– it all had to be fought for by the Brethren. So— it
appears GE just doesn’t see or get his own sins against his fellow Christians. – But hey,
he’s the “apostle” (or whatever they’re called now) over several states. Scarey.
——-The one man who stands alone in Chesapeake as a vessel of Truth—
Only one man. One man who is a man. Only one. Amazing.
Any man who would counsel or force a woman to return to an abusive husband is despicable.
Agreed, Canary–Despicable. Quite so.
Waters — I can’t go into detail, as it’s not my story, but there have been situations like what you call “The Three Couples” at KingsWay, too. At least one of those women got a divorce after leaving KW and is now happily remarried.
And nothing was ever publicly said about it.
Amygirl, your report is true. Sadly, these facts of control over women are true in the sgm culture. (We personally know of these actions in 3 sgm churches). Perhaps someday there will be investigations and accountability.
sgm continues in and is strengthening their pastoral authority (they are taught in pastors college that they “stand in the very stead of God”) which seeks to disarm the Believer
from critical thinking and hearing the Lord in their lives. Anyone who seeks to control
and manipulate the Brethren, and thereby become a conduit of destruction — we should run from……..as in flee…….And dwell in the shelter of the Most High God.
Anygirl, thank you so much for the good report! Awesome. (To think some in my old SGM church would have thought of it as grevious and something that to this day, the woman should “repent of”. Repent of. Crazy.)
Everyone knows that the only who could force any type of disciplinary action on Gene Emerson is C.J. Mahaney.
One reason that may exist for nothing being done to Gene Emerson on this event or others infractions he has don is how connected to the inner circle Gene Emerson is and that he may know too much. It wouldn’t surprise me if both Gene has information on one of C.J. Mahaney’s actions that Mahaney doesn’t want out. I am sure there is a similar situation with Steve Shank which explains why he remains.
I am curious how Brett Detwiler could be forced out with him also being part of the inner circle. Maybe he was given a nice financial severance with strings attached that kept him silent?
It seems that many of the pastors who leave remain silent (like Larry T.) maybe because they think that is the honorable thing to do. A loyalty thing? Unfortunately, if Gene E. were fired, he’d probably keep silent as well. There just doesn’t seem to be any ex-leader who has the love and courage to step forward and tell all the inside scoop on SGM’s shady side.
Also, Brent D. was so much a part of the problem that to reveal SGM’s murky behavior would mean revealing a huge hunk of his own responsibility in all the control that has gone on. I don’t think he’d do that.
Canary said:
“There just doesn’t seem to be any ex-leader who has the love and courage to step forward and tell all the inside scoop on SGM’s shady side. ”
That appears to be true about the higher ranking SGM Leaders. We have heard from ex SGM Pastors and their sharing what they know about SGM’s darker side.
True, we have heard from FSGP and Irv. They have been an amazing help. Didn’t mean to minimize their input.
Few things to share:
Ephesians 4:1-3 – “I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
also, John 8:7, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw the stone.”
How do you all reconcile this Scripture with what you are posting anonymously on this page? If you step back, pray, look at Scripture then look at what you want to or already have posted, it seems inconsistent with Scripture. I don’t believe that this page and the intent is helpful to people at KingsWay, other Sovereign Grace Churches or other believers. If you have a concern, you should go to the individual. If they don’t respond, widen the circle (with humility, love, patience) I’m having a hard time understanding how you can think the right approach is to anonymously post on a website. Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Concerned said:
” If you have a concern, you should go to the individual. If they don’t respond, widen the circle (with humility, love, patience) ”
A number of us have. Many times when one tries this the SGM “turns the tables” on the person bringing the issue such as saying the person bringing this has a bad attitude etc. Isn’t what we are doing here widening the circle as you suggest or as in Matthew 28 telling it to the church?
Haven’t you read up on Jim’s story where the SGM Leader refused even to go the Peacemaker route which SGM claims to endorse?
Also doesn’t scripture state that those (referrring to elders) who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all so the rest (of the elders) might be fearful. Didn’t Gene Emerson continue or persist in sin for 10 years in this matter? Here is the passage:
1 Tim 5:19-21
19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
ESV
Maybe if Sovereign Grace Ministries actually disciplined Gene Emerson for his sin other leaders in SGM might stand in this healthy fear that Paul mentions.
About the scriptures you just quoted, don’t you think that Gene Emerson should have considered them during those 9 years he withheld information that would have cleared SW? Where was Gene Emerson’s humility? Did Emerson really want the bond of peace? With his sin why did Emerson throw the first stone?
SGM Leaders will usetheir teaching on what they call “gossip” and “slander” to be able do whatever actions they do with immunity. Now with these blogs and the risk that some of their actions may be reported here they are more reluctant to do what they did.
“CONCERNED” (anonymously) said: How do you all reconcile this Scripture with what you are posting anonymously on this page?
Dear anonymous brother or sister: Our story is posted on http://www.sgmesurvivors.com including the part where the pastor refused to meet with us alone, under Matthew 18. And including the part where he had no specific objection, offense or sin that is or was ever verified, yet he paraded a “trial” and judgement of us including Stve Shank.If you want to read it I’ll post a link again. Several have known enough of our circumstances to know who I am, or who we are based on that.
How about the family whose 3yr old was repeatedly raped and the church leadership, all the way up to Mahaney’s deputies covered it up quietly and protected the perverted perp and his family? How exactly does that fit with Scriptures? If you haven’t read it, please do. And measure up both sides with biblical teaching ok? please?
Who are YOU? Why do you anonymously criticize?
Please respond to Steve’s verses. We’ll all wait to see what you think.
Concerned- Well I’m certain that there are a lot of people posting here saying what they haven’t been allowed to say or are afraid to say at their SGM church or were ignored when they went to their leaders like Defended has shared. ?Is it really unscriptural to bear each others burdens .I see things differently than you when you are comparing this blog to the Pharisees who were about to cast the first stone. It looks like to me those defending the victims( this blog) are more like Christ defending the women in that story and less like the Pharisees who were about to cast the stones. The Pharisees remind me of someone else.I’m sure you can figure out who. Speak for yourself about who this sight is or is not helping.
Not Very Optimistic
August 17th, 2010 at 7:17 am
“The problem is that people are leaving. Good people…mature Christians who, collectively, have decades of experience. And perhaps, the older ones should leave and take their wisdom to a variety of churches, new and old and bear fruit in different places, strengthening the body rather than be cooped up in a church that has too great a propensity to control them.”
NVO, That is exactly what is happening in Orlando, at Metro Life, and what I believe God is doing throughout SGM. There is no way I am going to say that I “wasted” 20 years with Metro. We all can take the good that we learned, and go where God leads us.
Out of the 25 -30 families that have left, most were there 15 years or longer. That’s a lot of maturity sitting in pews while the baton is being passed over their heads to young, “wet behind the ears” kids being put in charge in areas where they have no life experience of their own.
Or we can chose to stay angry, and bitter about what SGM turned into, and avoid any fellowship. I think that God is splitting up churches and dispersing mature believers throughout our communities, to further the Church.
We feel like missionaries in our new church home where there are many unsaved coming through the doors each week, eager for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe we (I mean WE as in “my wife and I”) were growing complacent and comfortable and God decided to shake things up.
It is sad the way it is happening, but I will not allow what has happened to keep me from fellowship with other believers – whether in a church building, a school, or a home church.
My thought about “Concerned” is that he has probably been around SGM for a long time and repeatedly heard SGM Leaders claim how approachable they are that he has accepted it as truth without looking for evidence including actions to show that this isn’t the case. He probably hasn’t tried to approach a leader and seen them try and “turn the tables” on this other person. If he does see evidence that contradicts what SGM Leaders claim he either consciously or subconsciously ignores it.
One term used to describe this situation is cognizant dissonance.
For all we know the SGM Leaders probably really think they are approachable etc. After all Gene Emerson suppressed the truth for 10 years and must have thought he was doing the right thing when he was deceived. It wouldn’t surprise me if SGM Leaders similarly think they are approachable when a number of leaders’ actions have shown otherwise. It can be easy for one to think they are one way even though their actions show something else.
Defended asks a good question of “Concerned.” Why does “concerned” post using an anonymous name when he thinks it is wrong for others to do so? Is this another SGM do what I say but not what I do? It sure seems like it.
I hope and pray for God’s mercy on these churches!
Nauseated, I think your numbers must be on the conservative or charitable side. I’ve heard from a reliable source that the number of families who have left is much higher and still growing. And you are right — a very high percentage have been there for 20 years or more.
Proverbs: 8 Whoever gets sense loves his own soul; he who keeps understanding will discover good.
At first I stopped posting on the blog – believing in my heart I was just hurt and angry and wanted to find a people that who help the hurt go away or make me feel better about my side of the story. I now know where my heart is. My heart is for God’s people. For their souls….. for the family of churches….. I am optomistic….
I do have faith that God is a big God and can touch and change hearts and remove those from authority that need to be removed. To many of God’s chosen are in a SG home = somewhere!
I also can see the hearts that are praying and crying out to the Lord to touch hearts within SG. The above scripture speaks about loving their own soul and gaining understanding (wisdom)…. Wisdom will promote relationships that are essential for a good life.
How many have shunned a “GOD RELATIONSHIP”… A relationship that God actually created? Not just within the “bubble”…… But a God ORDAINED RELATIONSHIP?
I’m praying along with many of you for their “hearts”. I was asked very very often by counsel…. How is your heart Brusied?
My heart is good. My heart still loves them and my heart trusts in the Lord that he is the FINAL AUTHORITY IN ALL THINGS……
Nauseated and Vida— I was wondering how things are at Metro. —There is an interesting parallel occuring in the churches that have experienced upheavals due to exposed consequences of controling, manipulative polity and its pastors:
In Fairafax, Chesapeake, Denvers, San Diego, Orlando and Midlothian/Richmond.
All these churches and their leaders, ‘apostles’, and the men on Gaithersburg Hill are
CONTINUING in the same status quo (Authoritative destructive control) due to their”digging in their heels ” in regards to their (sgm) polity. Apparently, they have every intention of propelling forward in their corporate machine. ——- So, how sincere are any “apologies” ????? Perhaps they are sorry for the exposure and the snag it caused in their agenda. We all know there isnot the fruit of genuine repentance. Sorrow. Because the corporate machine continues as if nothing ever happened. Which means Christians will continue to be mauled and polluted leaven will multiply throughout sgm. Brothers and Sisters, keep those bandages and ointment of Truth ready — we are in battle.
I agree, Nauseated—we keep the good we received in sgm and place Jesus Christ as 1st,
as we are “dispersed” — God is shaking the church —for our household we often recount our thankfulness! What we thought was a nightmare as we confronted issues in our circumstance of leaving sgm after 19 years, turned out to be Gods great Hand of deliverance and redemption. Free of sin chains and ‘pastoral’ control. Realizing the importance of “staying awake”; and discern; and function as a ‘Berean’. Refreshed by once again truly knowing the love of God– and excited to share HIM with the unsaved.
“Thank you” to all of those who are concerned about the bride of Christ and pursued His glory and the precious brides care in your own parts of the body as well as MLC, KingsWay, and so many other churches within SGM.
I am a member of KingsWay. I know that this will likely come to the knowledge of those leaders at KingsWay and I realize the potential consequences. As I’ve questioned both the situations at KingsWay and Chesapeake I’ve already been told that I participated in “slanderous, evil, and judgemental” behavior. This was said despite the fact that I was careful, up until now, to only discuss these matters with those directly involved… leaders within KingsWay and one former leader at Chesapeake.
I was present at the “family meeting” last Sunday night. The descriptions given between this site and sgmsurvivors.com are accurate and leaving me with no real need to describe it further.
An additional meeting took place last night, Friday. This meeting was however with the care group leaders and their wives only. I’m reminded of Chesapeake with this most recent action taken by the pastors. This step is said to be a part of an ongoing plan to address the concerns of the members present at the family meeting. The next step is allegedly to have care groups meet with the pastors a few at a time, instead of the open corporate body that was present last Sunday night. It seems to be an attempt to continue to isolate individuals and not have Matthew 18 exercised according to the way it was intended. It’s yet another sad example of the confusion or denial of scriptural truth that has led to this point.
At this time, I’m not sure how optimistic to be. Many, many are still blind to the offenses committed by the pastors, not just Gene. While he was primary (excluding Brent) the other pastors have upheld the offense in their silence. They have defended it for years by denying any wrong and stiff arming attempts to bring this sin into the open, regardless of the faithful efforts of a few “heroes” that have attempted for years to reconcile the offense.
This is not an isolated offense however. Many others have been wronged and sinned against. This is a sin against the very bride of Christ and the men that committed it have not repented nor recognized that through their actions they have disqualfied themselves from leadership and instead continue to lord over the faith of those they were charged to lead, teach, protect, and love. Their offenses continue and I believe they continue because the leaders and many members remain deceived.
I could write more but do not wish to have my passion for the flock confused with anger. I love this body and these men (pastors). My heart breaks for them and the whole body at KingsWay especially but also throughout SGM. Please continue to pray, write, and allow the gifts God has given here to work for the continual building up of the body.
Thanks, Mike
Very sad, indeed. My former sgm church is still in denial.
Mike D– Thankyou. We hear your heart on behalf of the Brethren at KinsgsWay. So true, when one member of the Body is hurting– we do ‘feel’ the effects. The wretchedly sad facts that we must confront our own (former) sgm denomination in regards to mauling and muddying the Bride of Christ is so very sad.
You are correct stating the similarity with the Chesapeake fiasco and your pastors agenda of now meeting with care group leaders, a few at a time. In Chesapeake, this was their attempt to bring everyone into the same line of perspective and thinking (agreeing with them)–which would then also “weed out” the dissenters. In the process, they also wanted to meet with “Esther” alone. She refused (she is very wise) and one of the “3 Couples” men was always with her. No more bullying of “Esther” was allowed by the courageous Godly men who stood as her advocates.
Apparently, sgm leadership abide by the”divide and conquer” from within (insidious). This is all cloaked in typical sgmese speak of “transparency,the good of the church,humility”…etc…etc…etc.
KingsWay —you are a significant ‘band of brothers’ in the exposure of sgm polity.
From reports, you didnot back down during the family meeting—and you persevered for Truth and Gods justice on behalf of one of His own. You caused lies and years of deception to be brought to the Light. We continue to pray for your spiritual,emotional, and mental strength as you continue on. That God will increase the gifts of discernment — so
needed when pulling down deceptive strongholds. That the people of KingsWay will awaken and not be lulled to complacency of religous mindset. That we all keep in the forefront our first love, Jesus Christ. We arenot fighting for the ‘local church’ — we\fight for the Blood bought Brothers and Sisters and for the Holiness and integrity of the One Whom we call Lord. He IS the King of Kings.
I think that God is splitting up churches and dispersing mature believers throughout our communities, to further the Church.
Nauseated, this is an interesting comment. After we left PDI in 1997, my friend had this vision: there was a man carrying a large bag of seed over his shoulder. He didn’t realize that there was a whole at the bottom of the bag, and that seed was leaking out as he walked. My friend felt that the bag of seed was PDI/SGM. The seeds were believers leaving the church. She felt that these believers were going to be used in God’s Kingdom.
You are right – our years in PDI/SGM were not wasted ones. We must keep the good and then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places. The Lord makes all things work out for good for those who love Him. Over-taught, underutilized believers are going out into the world to make a difference for Jesus!
Waters,
Thank you.
Mike D., you are one of those heroes who are standing for truth. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Cardinal and Brethren…… Know you are kept in prayer……..
Please remember not to take in the lying arrows that you are participating in “slanderous, evil, judgemental behavior.” (as MD reported) God gave us minds and intellect to inquire–and Jesus encouraged us to “ASK SEEK KNOCK” –if we donot engage, we will go to sleep and become complacent. The enemy always seeks to keep deceitful deeds in the dark—and mankind sometimes becomes unwittingly a part of those schemes. We need
“mighty men of valor” to lead the ongoing fight.
We are saddened that some of those who knew all the horrid details in the sin exposure and polity maiming going on in several sgm churches (our friends) chose and choose
NOT to “see”… to continue on in the status quo. This is difficult to reconcile, but we release them into the arms of the Lord and pray Holy Spirit will open their eyes and hearts.
Remind yourselves of the truths which you know. Stay in Gods Word—– pray together.
Purpose to NOT throw down your swords……the Lord will continue to order your footsteps and give you HIS wisdom. True wisdom: I Kings 3:9 —”an understanding
heart to DISCERN between good and evil.”
The Lord bless you in His unfailing Love, Waters
Mike,
You are correct. What was done to Steve and others, including what Gene did in Chesapeake are disqualifying actions. There was nothing said during the Q & A that gave me any indication that another life could not be destroyed tomorrow. One of the men Gene is “accountable” to had no idea that Steve was under a gag order until eight months ago. You briefly referenced Brent, who has become the scapegoat for a multitude of sins. Assuming that Brent “ordered” Gene to brutally destroy a man’s life (I don’t think Brent did this, BTW), is Gene a man or a little girl? Is he a shepherd or a hireling? A man, who is not a hireling, would simply say “no”.
No. I will not sin in this way. No. I will not hide my sin for ten years. No. If this is PDI/SGM, I want no part of it.
If anyone is thinking the best about gene and the worst about Brent, you are believing a lie. Gene’s brutality could not have been mandated and managed from afar. Gene did what he did.
Matthew said that Gene was not disqualified because he is pursuing repentance and that the elders have seen fruit of repentance.
Gene’s actions were so heinous that a man lost his home, and yet, Gene and his staff have absolutely no idea what restitution looks like. men have been asking them for a year about restitution, but they have NO IDEA WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
Newsflash KingsWay pastors-repentance involves restitution if restitution is appropriate and possible. Do you think that applies here?
This whole “it’s a new day here” theme was killed when Mathew attempted to shut down the Q & A. Thank God the church did not let that happen.
The course of action Mike described is manageable. The godly MEN who spoke up will not be in the same room together facing down the pastors again.
Divide and conquer while talking about community and family.
Mike D.,
May God bless you for your courage in the face of men who do not fear God.
Divide & Concur, Hmmmm, sounds like a military campaign is on. The Brave Saints stood up to the “Dictators” and the Dictators are planning to return the favor with isolating tactics and sniper fire.
As long as God fearing men and women stand firm, and stand together, (do not let yourselves be isolated, I mean it, DO NOT LET YOURSELVES BE ISOLATED,) they will only reveal their true morality. These Dictators (not pastors, not shepherds, not God fearing men,) will create a lot of smoke and noise, but they cannot hurt you. Shout everything they say and do from the housetops, (or on the blogs if you prefer,) and let God be glorified!
When they come into the care groups, ask those penetrating questions, and do not let them strike fear into you. Fear not, your advocate is mighty. Come home from those care group meetings and write down EVERYTHING they said and did. This is important for clarity, and confirmation of just how big a battle you are in.
I did this in my battle and it helped keep my sanity. If you have time, read our story here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=731
It is not Gossip, or slander if it is the TRUTH, and that TRUTH sets people free from bondage.
They (The Dictators) are ravaging the Bride of Christ.
Stand firm and expose them for the evil men they truly are.
We stand with you, and pray for God to be Glorified.
Defender
Jim, As you know, the “its a new day here” theme is trumpeted in EVERY sgm church which has experienced upheaval due to exposure of ‘pastoral’ destructive actions.
Thats there m.o. — “settle down, little darlins….it’ll all be ok— we are going forward…”
whitewash………whitewash……….whitewash………
Defender— You speak as the voice of experience, encouraging KingsWay men to NOT
allow themselves to be isolated. We pray God will instruct them. They are “allowed”
to obey God and not man. Going to meetings they so choose for the sake of Truth.
I Cor 16:13: “Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith;
act like men, be strong.”
KingsWay Band of Brothers—– many are praying for you and encouraging you on….
One problem with SGM is their view of church discipline and it only applying to regular members or those “below” someone’s “authority” vs. being something applying to all.
Early in the group’s history I remember them handing out an example from another church group that talked about the reason’s for church discipline. It specifically mentioned one of the reasons for having church discipline was to keep the sin of a leader from having an affect on the whole church. That is a possible to need to practice church discipline on a pastor in order to protect sheep in the church and the effect a leader’s sin can have on a local church.
Apparently Sovereign Grace Ministries no longer sees a need for church discipline to be applied to leaders, especially the higher up the chain of command they are. It is as if they won’t even “entertain” this need.
One use to even hear the following scripture:
Matt 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
NIV
as being applicable to church discipline. That even if an important leader sins and is unrepentant then apply this.
It is sad that SGM has moved away from church discipline applying to all.
I do hope people realize that there are at least 2 issues here.
1. The actions that Gene Emerson did over a 10 year period certainly disqualify him from being a lead
2. SGM polity needs to change and probably contributed to issue 1 happening.
I have serious doubts that SGM will ever act on item 2. However with regard to item 1 why isn’t this crystal clear to all involved? Gene Emerson did a number of wrong actions over a long period of time which disqualifies him as a leader. Isn’t his disqualification what SGM has taught and says they believe? Do the rules only apply to certain individuals and apply less and less as one goes up the leadership pole?
This appears to be flaming hypocrisy. Why aren’t members in multiple groups asking leaders why they aren’t practicing what they have preached in the past and supposedly believe?
Steve, you are SO right! Flaming hypocrisy. And worse than that, searing, destructive deception. How can someone NOT fear the Lord in their leadership of HIS people?
But as long as #1 is true, and there is virtually NO listening or heeding to the voice of the Holy Spirit, how can #2 ever change? That is to say, as long as MEN are in charge!
Honestly this sounds like an organization of MEN run by MEN as MEN see fit.
See, these members of sgm’s all over ACT like they belong to MEN, not God.
What a sad, sad mysterious thought, while singing and praising God but acting like the property of MEN.
Where in the world is the Lordship of JESUS CHRIST when MEN don’t even see or feel or heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit but only cave to the pressure of MEN where matters of character assination are concerned? What in the world has happened to all that concern over gossip and slander, when a man, his home, his reputation and character are sacrificed for the sake of an organization when confronted with a man who is following what he believes is the ….conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT!
Where is Jesus Christ in the hearts and minds of these so-called leaders?
And what is it that they are leading in? Certainly not Scriptures. Certainly not!
If they did lead with the Bible they would know, the enemy is NOT the flesh and blood of another man.
And what of these leaders declaring a “new day”??
WHAT ABOUT YESTERDAY? What did YOU, Mr. Leader – Caregroup leader, administrator, or pastor – What did YOU do while under that other day? What participation did you have in robbing a man of his dignity in the name of seeking out his sin? What woman was told she didn’t measure up to OTHER women, because her counters weren’t clear? Or her kids weren’t acting like robots making eye contact? Or God forbid her sons were active and deemed as unruly?
I remember being told that my 3yr old was a “young 3″ – because he didn’t sit still as long as others. YOUNG 3?! What other kind is there, for crying out loud?! Has that woman gone on to say that to other younger moms who somehow felt guilty that her 3 yr old was “immature”? I forgive her – she was swimming in the mind-controlling koolaid. But what about the man who works a night shift to provide for his family, and thereby can’t make it to care group. So what about the cgl who tells him he is UNDEPENDABLE because of it?!
How many years does that cgl go without seeing that HE participated in the system?
Honestly…are any of you who are reading this, recovering from the mind-numbing tonic of ambition, or of seeking holiness instead of a Savior, or revelling in the soundness of your doctrine? I KNOW there must be some here who were like that, right? Right?
Can anyone tell their story of coming to their right mind? Of the Holy Spirit HEALING where they were seared in their consciences? That would be such a sweet story to read.
FAR better than even a story of escape would be a story of reconciliation for the sinful leadership that has been committed. Have any of you gone to others you KNEW you wronged, instead of waiting for the refugees of the wrong to come to you? THAT report, that story, would glorify the Lord!
I know some of you men were/are care group leaders. Surely that is a place to start right?
Mike D, can you gather your care group and PRAY for GOD to be lifted up?
Can you by the power of Jesus, who will be present when 2 or more are gathered, can you pray for the Holiness of GOD to come in like a flood and purify the hearts of those who fear Him? Can you invite the righteousness of Him who knew no sin, to stand and lift up His standard of righteousness, peace and JOY as integrity and humility and TRUTH are lifte up? It’s not about the gory stories! It’s about brothers dwelling together in unity and love, and the integrity of knowing that ALL have fallen short, and need Jesus, not just the underlings of haughty leaders!
Mike D, your opening statement alluded to the possibililty of consequences because you post on a CHRISTIAN blog. Really?! Is that not obviously so very very wrong? Who judges your heart? God bless you brother in Christ.
To Him who sits on the Throne be honor, and glory and blessing.
Thanks for your comments Steve 240. You are correct, there are multiple issues here and ultimately the SGM’s low view of the church body (polity) is at the base of much of it.
Gene has wronged many during his time. Unfortunately, many at KingsWay see this as an isolated event in Gene’s life. Others understand that because Steve and Gene have reconciled their relationship that no further problem exists. They turn a blind eye or at least a naive one to the fact that sins against the entire church have been committed over a period spanning about 25 years. This was never even addressed during the family meeting. The closest that Gene came was to ask for others to come to him individually if they felt that he had wronged them during the past.
The more important matter is not Gene or any of the pastors but the matter of polity. It is the singular issue that has allowed such horrible abuse within SGM. And if it were not for such a twisted view of the authority of the elders and lack of any held by the church then even this situation with Gene would likely not have occurred.
1 Peter 5:3 speaks of oversight that is “not domineering over those in [their] charge but being examples to the flock.” Is this the example to be shown? The church is raped of all authority by the very ones called to be it’s guardians. This is clearly not the intended example.
Matthew 18:17 says, “tell it to the church.” That is beginning at KingsWay. Last Sundays family meeting was just the start. The completeness of the history must be told. This is the step we unfortunately find ourselves at. But we as a church must also hear what is implied in this statement, “tell it to the church.” With that statement comes great power, power which must not be taken lightly but held just the same as the authority and power spoken of in Luke 10:19-20. The power is not denied but it is not to be relished over either.
“Tell it to the church” … the power is implied because of the telling of sin itself. Their is no need to share sin with one that has no ability to affect but to share, in this case, with the church which has been given that authority.
Church, KingsWay, Gene is but a symptom of the true problem; his sins must be dealt with in all humility, love and truth but we are responsible for an even greater problem. This sin of “domineering over” the faith of the flock is not merely laying at the feet of the leadership but at the feet of KingsWay’s members (and SGM). We are responsible for reading scripture as the Bereans did. We are responsible for holding to the Spirit’s voice. We must not venture from historical, biblical teaching which has persevered throughout time and held together in Christ’s teachings. We must stand guilty before God if we continue to allow such sin to run unhindered in our midst. This can never become a “witch hunt” but the charges have been set forth, found to be true, and even admitted to (not publicly) by those charged and therefore, I believe, if the sins are allowed to continue it can only be because we as the church allowed it. 1 Peter 5:20 says that because persistent sin remains we are to “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest (pastors) may stand in fear.”
Church, you must ask questions without any partiality or prejudgements but only in seeking that God would be glorified.
I pray for God’s mercy on us all during this time.
Jim’s comment: “Divide and conquer while talking about community and family.”
That is a perfect one-line description of this despicable behavior among leaders; a single sentence descriptor that cannot be improved upon.
When the facade is stripped away, the heart’s true condition is seen for what it is.
God help them, and God protect us, your sheep.
–pk
Just catching up…Mike, your comments and encouragement to those affected and damaged are appreciated.
–pk
Mike, you said, “Church, you must ask questions without any partiality or prejudgements but only in seeking that God would be glorified.”
Thank you so much for that encouragement!
So, when you also said, They turn a blind eye or at least a naive one to the fact that sins against the entire church have been committed over a period spanning about 25 years. This was never even addressed during the family meeting. The closest that Gene came was to ask for others to come to him individually if they felt that he had wronged them during the past.
So, my question is, can you offer any explanation as to why a leader feels no responsibility to search his own conscience, submitting to the Holy Spirit any sense of needing to reconcile with anyone?
I have other questions but this one is probably chief on my mind in light of such a trampled trust as the dear saints of KW have given to Mr. Emerson, and so many other refugees have seen betrayed.
Mike
I admire your courage going public and the statements that you have made. I hope that other regular members such as yourself seeing what you have done will also have the courage to stand up to the Kingsway Leaders and SGM Leaders, especially Gene Emerson like you have been able to do including asking questions that should be asked.
This situation really baffles me here. Again this is something blatant. Had this been a regular pastor and not one of the top “good old boys” in SGM I am sure SGM wouldn’t have thought twice about making this leader step down. This is so far the most blatant case I have seen with SGM.
The more I think about this, it sure appears that SGM Leaders have their conscience “seared.” There just is not other explanation. How can these men not see that requiring Gene Emerson to step down is a biblical mandate?
Going from congregation meetings where everyone is present to meetings with a few caregroups at a time to discuss matters certainly is crafty on the Kingsway Leaders part. That way they don’t risk all of the congregation hearing valid questions which would then help others start to think. All I can say is that at least thoughts can be shared freely on this blog.
If people know other key leaders, especially what some call the “Reformed Big Dogs” then they should try and make them aware of this situation. Even contacting people they know in these others groups and making them aware of this would help. I am sure the more regular member whithhold of their tithes and offerings will also start to get SGM’s and Kingsway’s attention.
I just grieve when I read about this incident and wonder how men that claim to be seeking Christ can be so blind as to do some this egregious as in letting Gene Emerson remain. It must be seared consciences.
I think people at Kingsway who want change should take Mr. Emerson up on his offer – in mass numbers. Pick a weekday morning and have all those who think there are still problems to deal with line up outside his office. If there is a long enough line, that should make quite a statement.
Jim’s “divide and conquer” post has been a ureka moment for me. Now I understand! So fight that strategy with group confrontations…
Mike D, I pray your voice and heart for Gods people at Kingsway will be annointed and
directed by Holy Spirit to walk in the Light with the people there. The twisted polity enforced by sgm is being exposed……and many must take courage to see it for what it is.
Jims summary: “Divide and conquer WHILE talking about community and family”–
is the insidious sgm answer to the saints who expose their destructive unChristlike
dealings.——And as Mike D stated, it is the church, the Body of Christ, each Believer, who is called to know Scripture; be Bereans; not allow hearts and minds and spirit to be taken control of by any person or denomination. sgm polity seeks to subliminally entice the Brethren back into the law. The law — where there is no life, no sensitivity to Holy Spirit.
No sensitivity to Holy Spirit, brings lessened sensitivity to Truth and lessened
sensitivity to the cries of the broken and wounded.
C Spurgeon: “Ah! Believer, it is always safer for you to be led by the SPIRIT into
gospel liberty than to wear legal handcuffs.”
If you are led by the Spirit,
you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)
Vida
August 21st, 2010 at 7:25 am
Nauseated, I think your numbers must be on the conservative or charitable side. I’ve heard from a reliable source that the number of families who have left is much higher and still growing. And you are right — a very high percentage have been there for 20 years or more.
Vida, Those are only those that we know so I imagine there are more, but since we have not been around for about a year, all we hear is an occasional friend calling to tell us that they are leaving and who else is on the way out.
We were told that there are another 30, or so, families on the fence waiting to see how things are handled from this point.
Sadly, we don’t really get any calls from any of our friends of 20+ years, now that we are no longer a part of the church. That is something I thought only happened when one left a cult.
Divide and Conquer type isolation tactics is how the enemy does his dirty work. The lies and deception told to a few are kept from the body as a whole.
Next, will be to separate the men from the women, (even wives from husbands. SGM has a pattern of doing that.)
THAT is what set me on the warpath in my story.
Matthew 19:6 “………. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
The enemy wants to separate The Bride from her Bridegroom.
I believe SGM is operating as a tool of the enemy. They may not know it, but trust me when I say the fruit of SGM is not all that tasty.
Do your battle with that understanding.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Jesus would have the TRUTH be told to His church. I pose that if you know the TRUTH, tell it to your brothers & sisters.
Remember, it’s not slander if it is true.
It’s not gossip if it is to bring correction to wrongs committed.
Where will things go from here?
I went to Sunday morning meeting and was surprised by the number of others in attendance. There were fewer than normal but still more than I had expected.
I had a wonderful opportunity to pray with a dear brother and former pastor at KW prior to service. We are planning further times of prayer and discussion about everything that is occurring.
I’ll get back to the service in a minute but I mentioned in an earlier post that the CG leaders were summoned to a meeting this past Friday night. The meeting did occur and I believe God directed it in a way that was hoped for by many.
The meeting lasted over two and half hours and began as expected, with the usual explanations of the history with all of the whys and therefores. The history was skewed but there were at least 4-5 men present who knew the inaccuracy of what was being told. At the end of the presentation, the CG leaders were given an opportunity to ask questions or make comments. I am encouraged by what took place next, as well as disheartened by the place that it shows us to be in. The wives who were present began asking hard questions and press for the truth to be told.
(Men, where are you? How weak have you become? Must the women take your place in the fight? God bless them for their boldness but it is your place to lead not theirs.)
Toward the end of the meeting Gene attempted to announce that they would present everything to the church in the form of a letter. One courageous wife said that this could not happen but that the church had to be talked to face to face. Many of the CG leaders responded in agreement. So many that it is reliably reported that Gene appeared shaken by the response and asked if that was the way others thought we should go, to which there was an outcry affirming the need to carry this whole matter back to the church corporately. So I am told that we are having a “redo” on the family meeting that took place recently. Round two if you will. This is huge. The attempt to divide the church into smaller groups did not go through.
–Thank you CG leaders and especially the strong women that stood in defense of the Gospel. Please continue to stand. You have a unique opportunity to be at the forefront of this fight.–
Pray that men and women will realize that this is truly Matthew 18 we are in here and not at its beginning but fully within, “tell it to the church.” This does not mean “tell it” as in informational meeting but “tell it” as in let the fullness of the sin be known to all within the church. This is the time for the entirety of Gene’s, the other pastor’s and even that of SGM as a whole, sins to be made known. Additionally, while we are focusing on humility, gentleness, patience, forbearance with one another (Eph. 4) we must not venture from the clear path of church discipline given to us in Matthew 18 and 1 Peter 5. If we veer from the complete instruction of scripture, we will only continue to foster an environment where sin abounds.
Back to this morning. Mickey Connelly spoke on Eph. 4:1-3. I’ll leave it to you each to listen to message. It’s available at http://www.kingsway.cc or at least it will be the first part of the week. I can say that I was encouraged by each person that I spoke with. Many, many members read this site to my surprise. The greater encouragement came however from brothers and sisters seeking the Lord in this time of trial. Everyone that I spoke with was concerned but seeking unity within the body and that the truth be revealed no matter what path it took us on. People were truly serving one another, what a novel concept. Most even voiced that God has directed this time.
Just a couple of other points…
Dave Harvey is supposed to come speak on polity on September 12. That should be an interesting listen.
The second family meeting about this whole matter should be sometime shortly after… a previous meeting was to take place on polity.
Defended asked… “can you offer any explanation as to why a leader feels no responsibility to search his own conscience, submitting to the Holy Spirit any sense of needing to reconcile with anyone? ”
I fear answering that question because it is ugly to say the least. I fear the logical conclusion because it does not speak well for anyone who would be so blinded, seared, or hard-hearted as to lack that feeling of responsibility, to fail to hear the Spirit’s call to repentance or to simply ignore that call.
This seems to be basic Christianity but isn’t that where we all seem to falter so often, majoring on minors and forgetting the essentials. The place that KingsWay finds itself is a direct result of doing such things.
Despite all of the questions and concerns it is clear that God is at work. He is ministering to His people through this, He is cleansing His Bride and hearts are being enlightened. I am grateful to be a part of this time. It is often hard but to see His name glorified is far more important than the hardship.
Please pray for that group of men who started this, SW, BD, and BM, as well as their wives and children. This has been one long exercise in perseverance. They are tired. If you are a member at KingsWay and know who they are, go to them, put your arms around them, pray for them, support them in any way. They, as well as the pastors of KingsWay, need our prayers. Thank you for the many that have been praying for so long already.
Men of KingsWay, this is your time to stand in the gap. Now is the time to be firm in conviction, not divisive or exercising in disunity but no longer allowing false doctrines to reign over the church. We must not fail to uphold the responsibility given to us. I can not stress enough the importance of following Matthew 18 and 1 Peter 5 here. We must not step away from this in the name of unity. Unity must be sought but if it is at the expense of truth then the unity itself will be grounded in falsehoods and worthless. Isn’t that the unity the world has?
Love one another, be patient always and work for the purity of the church. It’s striking to me that Wayne Grudem sights both purity and unity as freedoms for the church…
“The purity of the church is its degree of freedom from wrong doctrine and conduct, and its degree of conformity to God’s revealed will for the church.”
“The unity of the church is its degree of freedom from divisions among true Christians.”
Seek freedom my friends, seek it to its fullest degree.
Mike D,
You reported: “The wives who were present began asking hard questions and press for the truth to be told.”
God bless you, my courageous sisters! I’m proud to count you in the “Brotherhood of believers”, if you will allow me (a guy) to be counted in the “Bride of Christ”.
Mike, thanks for the report, I’m so glad that there is such resistance in the Church to being divided into bite sized pieces.
One thought that occurred to me today that even if SGM were to decide to force Gene Emerson to step down it would still mean that something is still wrong. It should have been one of SGM’s first reaction.
Here are some of the cases I know of pastors being forced to step down:
Chip Ward due to family issues.
Robin Boisvert due to actions of his son.
Larry Tomczak (cofounder of group) due to family and actions of his son.
One case where a pastor didn’t have to step down was Grant Layman (C.J’s brother in law) despite the problems he had with one of his daughers.
Now we have a regional leader who in essence lied by witholding information that wreaked a lot of havoc on another former pastor and no disciplinary action happens? There sure are different standards for different individuals.
My guess is that Gene Emerson and other leaders at Kingwsay are buying time right now. They are hoping that things will simmer down and they won’t be under the pressure they may be under right now. Then they can go back to business as normal when the “heat” dies down.
Ya got me singing again!
Rise up O Men of God!
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and mind and soul and strength
to serve the King of kings.
Rise up, O men of God!
The kingdom tarries long.
Bring in the day of brotherhood
and end the night of wrong.
Rise up O Men of God!
The church for you doth wait,
her strength unequal to her task;
rise up, and make her great!
Rise up, O men of God!
Tread where his feet have trod.
As brothers of the Son of Man,
rise up, O men of God!
And now for a Cowboy yell:
YEEEEEEE HAWWW!
Rise up O men of God! By this is the tune that goes round in my head when that phrase is spoken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBM5pU-i4
I know there is a classic tune too, but hey, I’m of the Phil Keaggy generation & fanclub!
Mike Drewry, dear brother, God bless you! Thank you so much for your courage. Thank you for even considering my question. You alone have spoken of it! That speaks of your courage, humility AND that you do serve and submit to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And that your heart is not cold to Him. God bless you and keep you soft for His sake, His leading and His people. As for whether or not you like the answer you have in your heart, I would submit that James 5:16 is for you: 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Clearly you and so many others are praying for your brethren there, and God is working! And honestly, who doesn’t need the salvation and healing and restoration of the Lord as we turn our ear away from His leading?! Redemption, by definition means we need His help! And the good news is that He will reveal Himself to those who sincerely and diligently seek Him!
Honestly I’m so happy for your wonderful report of the unity of God’s people at Kingsway! Praise God, He is the KING OF KINGS and it’s HIS church!
We will certainly be praying for all of you. Thank God for your brave women, and for their integrity. You men married them! No shame there, in my eyes. Just don’t let them tell you to leave your wives at home, either! ;o)
God bless you. The Church is His Bride, His people. As you said, to see His name glorified IS worth it all!
Defender— I’ve been wondering if you might break out in song!! AMEN!!!
Mike D, Thankyou, once again for communicating — really, to hear that a GROUP of saints are standing together (whether large or small) and persevering in questions and confrontations with scripture and requests for truth is sooooooooo very
encouraging! Brethren in KingsWay — Y O U A R E T H E C H U R C H ——-
Jesus Christ is your Cornerstone— you are standing on and in His Righteousness–We hear the reports of HIM giving you tenacity, strength,wisdom, discernment-
This is a hallellujah!
I am praying the Rivers of Living water within you saints will become a torrent of truth that no walls of stalemate, control or religous sgmese speak will be
able to halt. Sisters in the Lord, we know as we submit ourselves unto the Lord and honor our husbands, we are able to go into a meeting of Brethren and stand in the same Righteousness in Christ and speak forth as the Lord Almighty moves. Women are called to don the same spiritual armor as men — so, Sisters and Brothers — keep sharp those Swords of the Spirit — keep up your shields of faith——–strap on that breastplate of Righteousness (you are NOT a worm)——-cover your heads with the helmet of salvation (believe no lies lest any stronghold take root)—–cinch everything together with the belt of TRUTH (the enemy fights with deceptions,manipulations,double-talk,schemes,ploys,)
because on YOUR feet ARE the shoes of the Gospel— the Good News—Jesus came to set the captives free that we may know Him and walk with Him—you shall not be moved!
KingsWay, there is a shaking in your church— keep seeking Him—God has chosen you for this significant toe-to-toe confrontation for Truth. This is about His own and the
representation of our Holy God.
For KingsWay: Psalms 24: 3-10
“Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
And who may stand in His Holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
And has not sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive a blessing from the Lord
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face– even Jacob. (selah)
Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
That the King of Glory may come in!
Who is the King of Glory?
THE LORD STRONG AND MIGHTY
THE LORD MIGHTY IN BATTLE
Lift up your heads,O gates,
And lift them up O ancient doors,
That the King of Glory may come in!
Who is this King of Glory?
THE LORD OF HOSTS,
HE IS THE KING OF GLORY. (selah)
He is the KING OF GLORY!
Amen, Waters.
This here is one reason i never became a member. The membership covenant needs changing. Its from CLC but it reads the same for KingsWay. I went through the brain washing ops starting point class and was sick to my stomach. I have met a lot of really good people at KingsWay, but some seem to worship their pastors and CJ not JC. Everyone wants you to fit the SGM mold and it was not for me. SGM is a way of life, thats why its going to be hard for some to get out. I have family on the inside, i just hope that they take to heart all the things from the meeting last Sunday and push for more open meetings.
Praying for all at KingsWay
On May 23, I approached “the mic” after receiving approval from a KW pastor to read the very portion of scripture that “Waters” quotes (Ps. 24: 3-10)! It was actually the first time I had done that since being at KW almost 11 years. I sensed God’s presence as I read the words in as dramatic a way as I felt like they deserved. There was genuine response across the auditorium as I read, “Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.” I felt my heart full of the Spirit and I paused before finishing the psalm, and then continued: ”Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory!” And then I turned and prayed that I would not fall down on my way back to my seat!
God has His Hand on KingsWay but my heart is grieved at the arrogance that I have seen over the years. I love GE but I am sad that he chose to be so uncaring to someone who had been a dear friend and co-worker in the ministry (SW). I could not attend church yesterday after learning in advance that MC from Charlotte would be teaching on “Unity” and that Communion would be shared. I felt like that was once again a manipulation of the congregation to have things just “be over” quickly. I am so very proud (in a godly way) of Mike Drewry for publishing his insightful comments under his actual name. I pray that God will protect he and his family. And I am so very proud (in a godly way) of the community group leaders (and it sounds like my sisters!) for standing up for truth and the King of Glory! Our church needs to change in some significant ways, but I’m not sure if the changes that I, and so many others yearn for, will be embraced under SGM. I am saddened that there seems to be those in the congregation that want things to just be done and over and to just move on. They don’t seem to have this passion in their hearts for change. Perhaps, like has been suggested on this blog, God is going to scatter the ones that leave to other places and thus spread His gospel and our years of maturity will not be wasted by staying here. I guess that’s another sad part to this whole mess. There are many of us (older believers) who feel displaced by this “culture of youth” that SGM has embraced. How ungodly is this? The WORLD embraces and exults youth – not His Church! The WORD says that we who are older in years and the Lord, have wisdom and gifts that are to be cherished and used! I want to serve the King of Glory – wherever He calls us to be in fellowship. And it may not be at KW.
“Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah.” Psalm 24: 8-10
Heavy Heart,
I’m curious as to your comment on the “culture of youth” that is present in SGM. As a young single in KW I’ve felt like if anything, there’s more emphasis and opportunity ministry-wise for the older, married people (which I have no problem with). Could you expound a bit more?
Thanks
Waters said:
Women are called to don the same spiritual armor as men — so, Sisters and Brothers — keep sharp those Swords of the Spirit — keep up your shields of faith——–strap on that breastplate of Righteousness (you are NOT a worm)——-cover your heads with the helmet of salvation (believe no lies lest any stronghold take root)—–cinch everything together with the belt of TRUTH (the enemy fights with deceptions,manipulations,double-talk,schemes,ploys,)
because on YOUR feet ARE the shoes of the Gospel— the Good News—Jesus came to set the captives free that we may know Him and walk with Him—you shall not be moved!”
………
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ CLAPPING!!!!!! ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Pragmatic – I see what you are saying. As far as perhaps leading a small group, etc. it would appear that there are more opportunities for the older, married members. I perhaps should have been a little more specific. (This is what happens when we try hard to voice our thoughts while trying to be as careful and general as possible.) What I am specifically referring to is the practice of putting very young pastors into leadership positions very quickly. From what I understand, this has not only happened at KW with MW but this has happened perviously in other SG churches. That’s what I meant.
Please don’t let these issues affect YOUR walk with the Lord! Stay focused on Him and His Word!
Pragmatic – thank you for being concerned about our church. This is a very important time for our church and perhaps for other churches also (but I think you are aware of that
Hey Ellie, call me!
Heavy Heart, in some ways I am more hopeful now than ever that there can be some reform within SGM, especially as the members become more aware of the problems and stand together to hold leaders responsible. Without all of you, there would be no job for these leaders. They cannot lead if the sheep won’t follow. If the saints stand together in seeking change, there will be change.
I also see what you were saying about young pastors being put in charge instead of older, more mature believers. Danger, Will Robinson! All those years ago when guys like Benny, CJ, Larry, and Brent began PDI, they were in their 20′s. Just as the Bible warns, youthful pride got in the way as their success grew. Speaking to Larry’s wife once after they’d been ousted, she remarked on this. “We were young,” she said. “We thought we had it all and that everyone needed to come to us to get it.” A truly humble woman, in my opinion.
Wow, Canary, if she said it, she just went up in points in my book. (As if that matters.)
Heavy Heart and Pragmatic, if I haven’t said it yet, please forgive me, but welcome here. The more voices, the merrier. Or to be more specific, the more voices speaking out, the more healing there is and the more many of us see, we are not alone.
Thanks HH, I see where you are coming from now. I can see how that would be a concern and it’s something to work through.
Concerning MW’s participation in the session I would like to set the record straight, if I may. It appeared to me that he was simply acting as the officiator of the Q&A session and trying to keep to the agenda which had been set ahead of time, by the leadership team. In the end, they were flexible and took considerably more questions than anticipated. They also addressed the need to have family nights/Q&A’s more often.
I also felt that GE gave a sincere and direct apology for what has happened. Granted, there’s still a lot of work to be done and time will tell if there is real change, but I feel we are on the right track.
Personally, this has really challenged me to take a hard look at the what and why of my faith and church life. Having seen the fruit of some of the “kingsway way” doctrine in my own life, I’ve realized that there is simply a laziness on my part to accept wholesale from the pulpit and from other well-intentioned church members the way I should live. I see the responsibility of leadership for endorsing things that shouldn’t have been, and taking the role of the Holy Spirit in my life. And I’m happy they are working to right the wrongs that have been taught and implied. Ultimately though, I feel it’s a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirits leading.
I appreciate the perspective this blog gives me as I weigh through the issues that make up church life. At the same time, it seems that there’s a propensity for the comments take issue with the SGM leadership simply because they are SGM leadership, and then champion anyone who opposes them, just because it’s SGM leadership and therefore rotten to the bone. It’s just not that simple. There’s problems, sure. And this season in particular has been a bit messy. But I believe that God is truly working through both the body and the leadership here to bring restitution and forgiveness. I’m remaining optimistic, not because of how great a church we are (sarcasm), but because how great God is.
I’m especially excited to hear about my sisters in Christ who stood up during the care group leaders’ meetings…and that their husbands supported them, seeing them as co-heirs in Christ. Hmmm…seems like I’ve heard that phrase before somewhere.
I hope, sincerely hope, that this is the beginning of freedom for our brethren in KW!
I don’t mean to offend at all, please know that–I bring this thought to you to encourage and free you. Those of you that are leaving…I see a common thought: ” then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places,” and other comments about how you will take all the wonderful things you’ve learned at SGM churches to bring them to other churches.
Please be cautious. SGM teaches that only SGM has it right, that their doctrine is more pure, more biblical, more godly than any other gathering of believers (not a pun…). That is ludicrous crap. You’ll be amazed at the depth of maturity in other churches. Jesus builds his bride hither and yon, and once you find freedom, you’ll certainly be used.
But you might also want to be open to just going to another body to just BE. To learn from them, to be restored and rested and enjoy a time of refreshment and liberty.
Join us out here in Freedomland, y’all. But we don’t need what you’ve learned in SGM. You don’t have to bring anything with you–just you. Simply come to the party…we long to worship the Father with you, and to watch where he leads you.
John 8:36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Dear HH,
So very interesting, Holy Spirit brings forth a portion of scripture for KingsWay–
twice within 3 months. He is pointing to the One Who is the King of Glory, the Lord of Hosts, the Lord mighty in battle. Glorious! Thankyou for sharing your heart in this– I can just hear the crescendo in the atmosphere as Gods Word effected His people, proclaiming that “HE IS the King of Glory”…….
I can hear your love for the people at KingsWay and for your pastors. Probably many of us, who were or are a part of sgm identify with you. We are the Body. We really are knitted together. When we see the reality of pollutant and/or a seeping gangrene
infecting our Brothers and Sisters, we cry out in alarm.. This has been difficult for us–
knowing some do see the pollution and are aware of the gangrene—but choose
to apply man-made ointment and go on with ‘business as usual”. This is where love
infuses us to continue to love AND speak the Truth, which in these battles has definitely become a sharp sword. It is necessary. Thankyou for reminding us to pray and to pray for MikeD and those who are taking an assertive and vocal stand for Truth.
We are proud of you all, proud in the sense of saying “well done…as you are fighting the good fight of the faith.”
The opposite of Truth…….is falsehood. Jesus said “IAM the way, the truth, and the Life”
He has no partnership with deceit. He is the King of Glory.
When one of the Body lifts up their soul to falsehood, and has sworn deceitfully that what he says is true (and it is not) – it is love that would appeal to him to fully acknowledge
the depth of his own destructive transgression.. If this one is a leader, we certainly
should be sobered and discerning before placing ourselves and our household
in submission to their overseeing. — Where corruptive roots took hold must be searched and rooted out…….and then the TIME span of examining for genuine fruit……..
Because its about reflecting Jesus… not the ‘good of the local church’.
KingsWay..we will be praying for your strength,discernment and protection –
probably more bigdogs from Gburg Hill will come to speak to you and seek to bring you to their modus agenda. And remember, the same Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead actually dwells in,lives in,abides in YOU!! Praying you will continue to:
“Build yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, and keep yourselves in the love of God…” (Jude, 20-21)
Amen, RT. I was thinking the same thing.
Heavy Heart and Pragmatic, welcome, welcome! I am so encouraged that the people at Kingsway are rising up and voicing Truth, not being silenced by the SGM machine! A hearty well done to those ladies who stood up to Gene Emerson! Maybe, just maybe, Kingsway can be rescued from the hands of SGM. If enough people stand for Truth and will not be bullied, then maybe it could happen.
Pragmatic:
Welcome to the ‘fuge.
You said: “I appreciate the perspective this blog gives me as I weigh through the issues that make up church life. At the same time, it seems that there’s a propensity for the comments take issue with the SGM leadership simply because they are SGM leadership, and then champion anyone who opposes them, just because it’s SGM leadership and therefore rotten to the bone. It’s just not that simple. There’s problems, sure. And this season in particular has been a bit messy. But I believe that God is truly working through both the body and the leadership here to bring restitution and forgiveness. I’m remaining optimistic, not because of how great a church we are (sarcasm), but because how great God is.” [emphasis mine - pk]
No one is happier than me–and that’s a genuine statement not easily made–if overall good things are happening at Kingsway in terms of repentance, no matter how messy the situation gets.
Also, I certainly don’t want to defend adversity and controversy for the sake of controversy, but one of the reasons many here have a knee-jerk reaction toward SGM leadership is that leadership problems tend to have a pattern, are often systemic movement-wide, and many here have not just been burned, but torched. From my own view, leadership often wants and expects love and forgiveness for their offenses, but does not want to extend the same toward the flock. This is seen in how they live out their lives and how well they put their money–and scripture–where their mouth is after hard times and stormy seas blow through the church.
Please understand, Pragmatic…I am not getting on your case. But I do think it’s important not to paint everyone here with a wide brush as being anti-leadership for flimsy reasons, like simply being a leader in SGM. The problems have been movement/denomination-wide, and that’s why you see a large number here who are in different stages of ever trusting SGM leadership again.
I hope this makes sense and that you do not feel that I am attacking what you said, just simply trying to widen the view here on folks–including me–who are still smarting from being scorched. I wish (and I’m sure many here wish this as well) I could flip a switch and all the bad stuff caused by SGM leaders would go away for all of us…not that simple. Everyone is exactly where God has them in His hand in the healing process and in their walk. Do some of us spend too much time licking our wounds–including me? Maybe. But it’s a huge mistake to lump all of us together as simply being anti-leadership. I’d rather like to think of many here as pro-reform and pro-good practices. And I make no apologies for believing that SGM leadership from the top down needs reformation.
Once again, welcome!
–PK
I began participating in this thread with the best of intentions. My view was and still is that the matter(s) before KW are squarely within the arena of church discipline mentioned in Matthew 18: 15- 20.
One thing that I’ve learned in the midst of this is that there are a lot of people hurting in ways and depths that I had never imaged. (I’ve only been at KW for about 2 years and therefore not a part of the past that many have been.) I have received numerous emails, calls and had a few face to face conversations with brothers and sisters that are incredibly grieved. For most of them, this grief has lasted for years. The anguish that has been expressed to me has been highly unsettling but I am also grateful that the Lord has granted those individuals a voice and the strength to again seek reconciliation and peace.
My heart breaks for those individuals that have been crushed by practices that amounted to spiritual abuse. I bear their burdens before the Lord daily and hope for speed in healing.
I thought that when I began this that I could serve the body in some way. I never sought to lead some group of “wounded warriors.” I never sought to stand at a distance and take sniper shots at the leadership of KW or SGM. I never sought to detract from the process that is clearly moving forward as the Lord directs. I only sought to inform, to give a voice to an otherwise unheard or isolated group.
Since that first posting I’ve had an overwhelming amount of encouragement from individuals throughout KW and from many here at “refuge.” Thank you. It shows me, and others, a passion for this precious Bride, the Church of Jesus Christ.
I learned something yesterday however that I had not thought about. Thankfully, two brothers that I dearly love were men not afraid to speak to me about the wisdom of posting these matters in a medium that leaves no room for you, the reader, to have an opportunity to truly see my heart. You have no idea who I am, even though I posted my true name, because I believe I should never make a statement that I’m not willing to fully stand behind. This medium, while useful, can be detrimental for many reasons.
Like those who came forward to tell me their painful stories, there are others who feel a pain of another type. They feel the pain of my words. They have suffered because of what I have written here. Some are confused about what has gone on within KW and SGM. They may have been here for years and indoctrinated into the “KingsWay way” but now, just like one looking into the bright light after having bandages removed has sensitivity to that light, many here are experiencing varying degrees of sensitivity. Because of that they need to be cared for as well. I need to be gentler and seek to care for you instead of always charging forward.
My words have not been sensitive to many within our body. I have been less than gentle and certainly not patient. I’ve been described as passionate… or brash dependent on whether you like me or not. I allowed that passion to charge my words. I don’t think that alone that would be problematic but coupled with this situation it became sinful on my part. It caused me to loose sight of my love for you and become a clanging cymbal only causing irritation to your already open wounds. Brothers, sisters, if my words have caused any degree of pain, hurt, distress please forgive me. It brings me great pain to know that I have caused harm to some that have read this blog. If that has occurred do not hesitate to talk to me. I don’t know who you are. I’ve only heard of you but I want to look you in the eye and ask for your forgiveness. I can only do that if you allow me that chance. Please, please come to me or call. My number is on the members section of the KingsWay website.
I also want to publicly confess my sin against Gene Emerson. This is where I committed it. This is the right place to confess it. I will meet with him separately at a later date to ask directly. I still believe in the charges that I professed however I have not spoken directly to GE and that is, I believe, wrong.
Gene, the Emerson family, the other pastors and their families and any one else that my words have caused harm, you are my brothers and sisters, you are loved deeply and while my directness has caused you to be injured, please know that was not my intent. I acted foolishly and charged forward without heeding the fullness of Scripture. Please forgive me. Truth must be told but not at the expence of causing undo harm to the ones Christ died for.
I know that much can be read into this. (that’s always the case) Some may even say that it’s just another example of the “SGM brainwashing” and that’s OK. God has convicted me of this and it is to Him alone that I must answer. May His name be praised and may He alone be glorified in all that we are doing here.
Heavy Heart:
If I have not seen you earlier, welcome to the ‘fuge…
Thank you for laying it all out, and I hope soon that heavy heart turns into a glad heart.
–PK
RT said:
“I don’t mean to offend at all, please know that–I bring this thought to you to encourage and free you. Those of you that are leaving…I see a common thought: ” then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places,” and other comments about how you will take all the wonderful things you’ve learned at SGM churches to bring them to other churches.”
RT, I understand what you are saying here and I have been concerned with it also. I also understand what some of the new SGM refugees are saying, in part, about being able to use what God (not SGM) has given them over the years and not be stifled.
There have been a couple posts where someone has said something about not letting the enemy make them bitter and keep them from fellowship as they leave SGM. Again, I can understand in part what is being said here. These newest refugees have the benefit of seeing the SGM lies together – not being isolated as one family or one individual, as many of us have been over the years. We all thought it was just US or just our church. We thought “this can’t be real, this is crazy, we are the ones that are in the wrong here, because that’s how we were made to feel. Members leaving now have the benefit of these blogs and knowing that there really has been some weird stuff going on and it’s not their imagination. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have some healing that needs to happen. That doesn’t mean that they don’t need to get reacquainted with who God really is. That doesn’t mean that they need to learn to really learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I am very glad for the way God is exposing unrighteousness and that people are being set free, but please take time to heal, too. Taking time out to just be with God and being cautious about who to trust is not bitterness, and it’s NOT a bad thing. The only one who is truly trustworthy is the Lord. The Holy Spirit will teach us who we can trust. And it may take time.
I hope this makes sense and y’all can hear my heart in what I am trying to say.
Stunned and RT,
I can see where you are coming from. However, I believe the subject came up about mature believers leaving SGM finally being able to be useful in God’s Kingdom. It was is so easy for those of us who spent many years in PDI/SGM to feel that time was wasted. No! There are good things that were taught to me in the early years – I learned how to desire God’s will above my own. A very valuable lesson! All those who are leaving should do as the Bible instructs: test the spirit and keep the good. I don’t know if I’m saying this right…I just don’t want those who are leaving to feel discouraged that their time in SGM was a waste. Glean the good from your experience and use it to serve the Lord. We can all do the work of ministry in one form or another. SGM kept many people bound up. If anything, it was the gifts within these people that was wasted! So, be free, saints! Test the spirit in what you learned during your time in SGM and keep what is good. And most of all, enjoy your freedom in Christ!
Canary said:
Just as the Bible warns, youthful pride got in the way as their success grew. Speaking to Larry’s wife once after they’d been ousted, she remarked on this. “We were young,” she said. “We thought we had it all and that everyone needed to come to us to get it.” A truly humble woman, in my opinion.
I believe this to be true in the Leadership! But I’m hopeful with the rest of you that people are starting to see TRUTH!
I’m excited that God is beginning restoration of his church…. That is my prayer for Sovereign Grace…. Hearts are growing!
I’m joining with you all that “true repentance” will come…. That they will acknowledge the true head of the church and humble their hearts SINCERELY before God.
I agree with PK…. I know that I spent over a year and 1/2 licking my wounds…. so to speak… I’m still in the healing process – but I believe with all of my heart that I love the people of SG or I wouldn’t even be on this site. I would care less what happens to them and remain bitter and angry. I refuse to allow that.
I will continue to hold them up to the Lord and pray that their holds turn their eyes UP to God and not UP to their Pastor…… I walked through a relationship where God wasn’t leading us – but man was…. My fiance’ did as he was TOLD…. period.
What Ellie said, too…
Pragmatic said:
“ I see the responsibility of leadership for endorsing things that shouldn’t have been, and taking the role of the Holy Spirit in my life. And I’m happy they are working to right the wrongs that have been taught and implied. Ultimately though, I feel it’s a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirits leading.”
Yes, it is a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirit’s leading. We were taught by SGM leadership that we, as mere members and not leadership, can NOT hear the Holy Spirit speaking to us. We were taught ***by leadership*** that we needed ***leadership*** to tell us what the Holy Spirit would be saying to us. This totally unbiblical doctrine was taught to SGM leadership by SGM leadership along with alot of other nonsense (such as it’s okay to lie and mislead sometimes). Anyone who did not follow the company line and thought that they could hear the Holy Spirit for themselves was told that they did not trust leadership and that they needed to find a church where they could trust the leadership. They needed to leave. They were not welcome. And if not for the new “togetherness” of SGM members in light of what God has been doing in the last couple years, YOU too would be shipped out of your SG church if you decided that you could hear the Holy Spirit and had a conviction that He was saying something differently than what your leaders were saying. You wouldn’t have the benefit of being able to continue to question openly. You would be OUT and all your friends at SG would go on with their lives and wonder what sin you were in, because you weren’t there anymore.
I LOVE my old pastors, but I HATE what the SGM machine has done to them.
I will continue to hold them up to the Lord and pray that their holds…. Sorry..
meant to say that their hearts turn toward God and not their Pastors…… I need a proof reader!
Oh Ellie,
you said:
we are the ones that are in the wrong here, because that’s how we were made to feel. Members leaving now have the benefit of these blogs and knowing that there really has been some weird stuff going on and it’s not their imagination.
This is my heart and so very very true! Praise God for others than have stepped forward in my life as confirmation that I wasn’t crazy….
Amen!
Mike D.:
First, I want to say your humility is appreciated, and refreshing. Your concern for your church as a whole and as individuals is not only admirable, but exemplary. The fact you stuck your neck out by posting your real name certainly has my respect. Others here have very good reasons for not posting their real/actual names (contrary to the rocks that get thrown at them for so-called “anonymous” posting), but I think you get my point.
My concern is in the timing of the two individuals who are appealing to you to essentially stay off the blogs because you are allegedly hurting other people with your words.
Like your illustration of wounds and light-sensitivity, the truth does not always feel good, Mike. You certainly know this. If someone wants to see your heart, they can contact you here or offline…nobody is stopping them from doing that, and I will be happy to facilitate that.
There are some hard things that Christians have to face in the trenches throughout their lives, and no amount of soft-pedaling or absence on the blogs or shutting-up is going to change or help that.
Men like Isaiah and Jeremiah had to say some very hard things to an entire nation, and thousands of years later, we have yet to see the entire fulfillment and apex of it. I’m willing to bet that aside from the ones who wanted these prophets’ heads spinning on sticks, there were ones who came to them privately (probably some within their own families) and appealed to them to stop “hurting” people with their words. It doesn’t change the fact that at the time Israel was on a downward spiral, and somebody, somewhere, had to have the guts to call a spade a spade, dig in, and fight for the honor and righteousness of the God they serve. The time of lip-service was over, and the time of God resuming his place on the throne in the hearts of people was at hand.
My whole point Mike is that emergency damage control via attempting to shut people up has never worked in the history of mankind, let alone the history of Israel, and most especially the Church.
If you have concerns over heart motives, I understand that, and certainly cannot pretend to be the Holy Spirit in that matter. But do not let men shut you up for reasons based more on sentiment, decorum, and the offended’s sensitive egos than reasons for righteousness and a most desperately needed reformation.
Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might!
–PK
I am not new to this site, but this is my first post. After googling Brent D.’s name last fall, I stumbled on this site. The discovery of this site was not long after I had written a long letter to our elders (about this time last year) expressing deep concerns. While my wife and I met with the Sr. pastor, I was shocked to find themes on this site very similar, sometimes to the word as in my letter. One would have thought I was a regular on this site before I wrote my letter. Hmmm….. However, this is not what I have come here to say. I have attended KingsWay for 20 years. Most of my adult life I have found life in the fellowship of wonderful people and friends at KingsWay. God has used this body to speak and minister to me and my family (more than the other way around). I have heartfelt thanks to leaders and members alike.
But, none have spoken and ministered to me more than one man. At the risk of elevating a flawed man, I have witnessed the most profound example of God’s “new creation” work and powerful display of love that I have ever believed possible. I have long thought that talk is cheap and actions are a measure of a man. This man’s actions are off the charts!
I write this today to let KingsWay, Sovereign Grace and the world know the absolute undying love that God alone is able to create in a man’s heart. The man I speak of is Bob Dixon. I have known him 20 years, but have gotten closer over the last few and much closer this last year. His humility and love astounds me. Even though we were friends he never told me of his long journey to love his brother (Steve W.) back to health and selfless dedication to see him restored and the body of Christ healed. For nine years, ten counting this last year, he went nearly monthly (nearly monthly!!!) to our leadership asking for reconciliation. Nine years! Nine years, in season and out, never giving up. It is unfathomable. My love for a brother or the body of Christ under these circumstances would not have lasted more than six months, much less than 9 years. Bob persevered hoping in God for nine plus years. Is this even possible? I will answer. No, not with man, but with God all things are possible. This is the love of God, nothing less.
As I consider our leaders and their calling and responsibility before God to shepherd His flock, I think of two passages and I think of Bob. I Cor. 11:1 “Follow my example as I follow the example of Christ.” Paul is clear, we are not to simply follow a leader (even the apostle Paul, himself), but to follow a leader only as they follow Christ’s example. Christ’s example is not what comes natural to us. One of the clearest pictures of this is the parable of the lost sheep. The heart of God is not like our heart. We are interested in numbers, in success, in mission, and yes, in kingdom building. We are interested in the 99 sheep. So what is the mark of the authentic shepherd? It is the pursuit of the lone sheep, which is lost. Does this really make sense? No, not to our kingdom building minds, but it is precisely what marks the heart of an undershepherd who has a heart after Gods. This is Christ’s example that we simply will not see or follow without full surrender to God’s heart and his heart for his sheep. This is exactly what Bob did. He went after that one solitary hurting and bruised sheep and after caring for him, tried and tried and tried to bring him back into the flock. He, only in God’s strength, with the help of highly esteemed men has finished this work. While I, for one, am in holy respect and gratitude to his long suffering obedience. I know Bob’s heart remains for the body of Christ and the freedom that is theirs only in Christ and the unity that is found in submission to Him alone. I share Bob’s vision. I have seen it. It is Christ. As recorded in Philippians 2:6, Christ emptied Himself. I have witnessed a man empty himself. Bob, Steve, Buddy and those privileged to share this burden with them, I am eternally grateful.
Kingsway,
If any man is qualified to be an elder, I believe Bob is. With that, he also has a prophetic gift and is significant to the body at Kingsway for such a time as this. I would ask, who has spoken in word and deed with this kind of unselfish love for the body. We all would do well to listen but not only listen but discern by both the Word and the Spirit what God is saying.
I would exhort Kingsway believers (Heb.3:13) to pray for unity, but more so that truth be revealed. For what fellowship has light with darkness?
Until all comes to the light and the deeds are seen to be in God, we will never see the truth and the unity of the spirit that follows. Those things that are hidden do not want to come to the light. Why? (John 3:20, 21). We are in a spiritual battle. We wrestle not against flesh and blood; we are not against our brothers but for them. We must spend more time on our knees than anything else. God help us!
Lastly, unity is like peace, we want it so and even for God honoring reasons. We may seek it, pursue it, commit to it and along the way find some of it, however we will never possess it, not apart from emptying ourselves of any and every thing that obscures or contends with the all sufficiency and all supremacy of Christ. Unity is essentially a byproduct of submission to and fullness of the spirit of Christ (where there is no hidden darkness at all).This is our hope. Obedience to Christ and his Word are our only means to unity.
Grace, peace and unity to all who are in Christ.
Mike D,
I don’t have time to say all I would like to say regarding your recent post, but in a short time I’d like to say:
I do not see anything you said that was particularly malicious. Rather, just reports of what was happening, and those reports protected specific names except for the names we already know. (I personally wonder if anyone was hurt, it was the hurt of exposure, not slander?)
In my gleeful expressions here, I am not gleeful for the fall of leaders, rather I am ecstatic for the freedom of the Bride of Christ.
My personal experience is that SGM leadership, (All the way to the top) is holding the Bride captive to ANOTHER GOSPEL.)
In my personal experience, SGM leadership DOES NOT FEAR GOD. (In my case I saw Hersey, and borderline Blasphemy spewed on my wife & me by a pastor and an Apostle.)
I see similar patterns of SGM leadership abuse in the stories of the many wounded here.
The Kings Way “story” here has the same DNA evidence all over it. Be very careful about ANYBODY in leadership at SGM wanting to put any condemnation on you. The Holy Spirit can convict you of any sin you commit. Men who do not fear God bring CONDEMNATION, not true conviction, so be aware.
If the Holy Spirit is leading you to write what you wrote, then Praise God, and obey Him.
If it is from Men who do not fear God, they will seek to bring you under their control, or publicly humiliate you and discredit you.
Seek God, and use your discernment from Him.
While I’m on my soapbox:
As far as Reform in SGM is concerned, In my opinion, the only way Reform can happen in SGM, is by a total sweeping away of the entire SGM Polity and Leadership (With the exception that if God decides to keep any leaders who are totally regenerated from the current polity.) I’m talking scorched earth. (No less scorched than as the wounded Bride was scorched under the current Polity.) Also, this silly fascination with promoting these 20-somethings into leadership has to stop. It is juvenile! It’s from CJ, and he is displaying himself as either intellectually vacant, or openly against the word of God. Either way it looks pretty bad for CJ, and therefore the whole of SGM.
Mike, I’m proud of your courage and valor in posting here under your own name. Please understand that there are real tangible reasons as to why we post under other names so we cannot be “Googled” and persecuted. We have had enough persecution for now. If anybody really want’s to find out who I am they can read my story over at Survivors in the April 19 2009 archive and do some research to find me.
I truly want God’s best for Kings Way church, and am not concerned about the ones responsible for evil being done in God’s name. I leave them (the leaders) in God’s hands. He has infinitely far more Grace to offer them than do I.
I went on longer than I expected, but that’s my $1.50 worth.
Defender
Thanks PK. I appreciate the encouragement. Here’s a little of where I’m coming from and following this I will not comment about me again as regards this matter. I do not wish to take away from what is the FAR more important matter at hand. I hope that doesn’t come across wrong. I just think that there are more important matters to discuss.
“Thus sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.” 1 Cor. 8:12 ESV
This medium, the blog, is controversial by itself. Many believe that it is not the place to talk about the matters that are discussed here. I don’t, if caution is used. This can be a very effective tool for many things, and in our case creating a portal through which “truth” can be disseminated quickly, broadly and unincumbered. However with such power comes great responsibility.
I must tell the truth, from that I pray that I do not stray. I also must care for the body of Christ. It is not merely a command for me but something that I feel within my deepest parts. I know that it comes from the Spirit. I long to see men and women wide-eyed, clear sighted, but at the expense of wounding them… not if they are my brothers and sisters.
Your reference to Isaiah and Jeremiah is true. Many hard things were said and many beyond those looking for heads were likely hurt but you are also talking about a group of hard-hearted people within the people of God that were angered or injured by what they heard. The true sheep hear His voice and know Him. Those that I am referencing are those that are seeking the truth, long for it even but are struggling in this time. Their hearts, all of them, must be protected even as they hear hard things. For some, a part of that responsibility is on themselves. Not all are equipped for the sometimes raw statements made in an environment like this. Perhaps they should avoid reading here. But does that mean that I have no responsibility? Of course I do! I share the burden of their pain while continuing to press for God’s glory as this whole path unwinds before us. It is precisely because of that that I must use wisdom and be prudent in when, what and how I present matters. There are times when temperance is the right choice. Unfortunately, I have no control on when, who or what is read on here. I could easily have my weakest brother/sister looking at my firmest statement. I have to keep that in mind.
So will I continue to post? YES, as the Lord directs
Will I try to be wiser? YES, with His grace
Will I soft sell? NO, anyone who knows me can attest to that.
Will I be more loving toward my brothers/sisters? May it be so Lord!
Again, thank you for your encouragement PK. I am thankful for your moderating this site. It is a way of ministering to those in need. Thank you also for offering to facilitate any conversations. That may be needed at some point.
Well said, PK.
Mike, I hope you heed his words, brother.
(I really need to change this name.)
Defender: “Also, this silly fascination with promoting these 20-somethings into leadership has to stop. It is juvenile! It’s from CJ, and he is displaying himself as either intellectually vacant, or openly against the word of God. Either way it looks pretty bad for CJ, and therefore the whole of SGM.”
Amen, Defender. Doesn’t anyone else see the whole way Gene handled the installation, ordination and promotion of MW as wrong? Well I for one will say it. It was wrong and it weakened our church.
MB–
Well said! Bob is an inspiration.
MB–
ANd why did you need to google Brent? Was it because no one had told us about his departure…we had to find out about it third hand. I think there were people there at the Family Meeting that had no idea he was gone.
Mike-
I think you have done a great job in posting. I was very encouraged by your courage to speak and care for the KW congregation. I could hear your love in what you wrote and thought it was written with integrity. For what my opinion is worth I think it’s a very loving thing to help expose the truth like you have.
C O -
If I remember right, I knew Brent had left, but knew nothing else. Having been so important to SGM and to our leadership, I was simply curious as to why or what he was doing. I had never done that before and was not expecting much. Of course what I got was a whole lot more. I have to say it floored me at the time, that is my observations of what seemed to me to be growing serious issues and the similar thoughts expressed here.
I am surprised if there were people at the family meeting that didn’t know that about Brent. I expect we will learn more about the plans for oversight of local churches at our meeting coming up.- whenever that is.
It is Brent D recently departed from SGM. Wether he is on staff at this church I don’t know. I do know that he is the one preaching. His voice is very recongnizable after being in his church for many years.
I have conflicting emotions. Has he moved on to pastoring or teaching others without dealing with the many hurting people left in his wake?
MB,
What an encouraging example of Christs’ compassionate, persevering care in
your friend, Bob D. EVERY MONTH he asked for reconciliation process, and was denied? For 9 yearrrrrrrrrrrs?? And all that time, for 108 months, all total, Gene E KNEW how he himself had treated and maligned a brother in Christ and for 108 months he was
hardened to the nudging of Holy Spirit????? I confess, I’m shocked — though
should not be. Desensitized to compassion and care, is the response he showed in the Chesapeake/Esther story. (along with Steve S, and Dave H and all Chesapeake pastors).
How these men remain as ‘leaders’ is beyond my comprehension.
Your example of Bob D, as a leader who exemplifies the character of Christ is so important. Evidently, Bob is not just another “yes man” but seeks the Lord, obeys Him and cares for the wounded and broken. (Without anyone pointing it out to him).
Bob sounds real. Real. Not robotic in response with sgmspeak and behavior.
We need mighty men of valor. We need men who will be alert and “fight” . Our young men need role models like Bob. (and the men who stood/stand with him).
True, as you stated, we are definitely in a spiritual battle. We need “spiritual eyes” and to take courage to see the hard things God is revealing. Obviously, God is peeling back
layers of years of transgressions against the Brethren, perpetrated by leadership, at KingsWay. Is there a fear of God/ His Holiness, in this? The Lord, Mighty in Battle,
must see these transgressions as serious.
PLease continue to cry out for discernment —–please remember it is not only the people you are confronting, but the principalities behind every manipulative ploy.
Please continue to take courage…….May the Lord increse your perseverence,discernment and strength……..
Whatever happened with Brent is another secret hidden from everyone. He hurt many people through his controlling ways and now he has simply disappeared. I have prayed for him and his family. It would be so good to try to reconcile with him, but Mr. Canary and I don’t even know where he is or how to begin. We don’t even know if he would be open to talking with us. It is all such a mystery…typical SGM…
Amazingly, a friend just sent me this link: http://stgilesepc.org/sermon-a.....-detwiler/ I guess Brent is still pastoring.
Are you sure Brent is part of St Giles Prez. Church?
He is not listed on the staff listing.
Just makes me wonder what is his status there. Or could there be another Brent Detwiler?
Defended, this is what you’ve been saying. Don’t these men have any conscience? Don’t they have any conviction from the Holy Spirit? Your ex pastor has never reconciled with you. Neither has mine. Did Brent ever go to anyone to ask forgiveness? Or has he just moved on with his business? Does he have no idea what he did to people, how many saints he wounded? How can this be if he is truly a man of God?
Exactly right, Canary!
I went to that link and there is a search for a pastor there, so could it be he was “auditioning”? I think that’s kind of how most churches find a new guy, right?
Perhaps it would be interesting to the fine people of St. Giles to chat with you and Mr. Canary!
Honestly, we have moved on. We have prayed for and forgiven the abusers in our story. The whole point was that our so-called pastor refused to meet with us when we tried to bring an offense (or concern) according to Matthew 18. Scriptures don’t really say how to treat a leader who refuses that one, other than the oft-cited passages “tell all”. But they are God’s people and He is their shepherd, not us. Yet it’s a sad thing to see how little those people seem to have any of that reflective sin-sniffing nature when it comes to their own wielding of authority! So I pray that God is more merciful than any of us deserve in bringing those faulty, or even fraudulent leaders, who would have had us serve and worship MEN instead of the Lord Christ, back to Himself. Or to Himself if they have never truly recieved or experienced His free and loving grace.
Mike D, God bless you and keep you.
I would also want to encourage you to re-read your own report of last Sunday and how the Lord was moving among your brethren prior to the meeting and then afterwards.
Remember when you said,
Despite all of the questions and concerns it is clear that God is at work. He is ministering to His people through this, He is cleansing His Bride and hearts are being enlightened. I am grateful to be a part of this time. It is often hard but to see His name glorified is far more important than the hardship.
AMEN! AMEN!! Your post is full of truth, and honesty about God’s people and also about some falsehoods being perpetrated.
I respect your humble confession and apology. I won’t try to talk you out of it.
But I also beg you to continue to meet for prayer with those whom you mentioned wanting to continue to meet. I also ask you to go STRAIGHT to that person(s) who were promoting or speaking falsehoods to the congregation. TAKE ALL whom you know with you, who know the truth! This is past the Step 1 of mt. 18 if lies are being told to the entire congregation in the midst of others who know the truth. That is more like 2Tim. 3 – having a form of godliness but denying its power.
So please walk on in truth, and in your love for JESUS first. You are bought with a price. NOBODY else died in your place.
Folks:
It is clearly Brent D being referred to in the audiolink above. The man introducing Brent refers to Brent and his wife Jenny as well as to Brent’s role in Sovereign Grace Ministries. He mentiones SGM by name. The man introducing Brent also makes mention of having sat under Brent’s teaching for a number of years.
Brent D
Brent D
Brent D
Brent D
Just in case anyone in the St Giles church is doing a search on him, I’d like for them to get to hear some of the testimonies of those in his former church.
Brent D.
Here is a link to their August newsletter. It will explain their process of finding a pastor as well as the speakers for this month. It introduce Brent and his background.
http://stgilesepc.org/uploads/August1.pdf
Scroll down till you see Pastor Search Committee.
Is Brent under consideration to fill the Senior Pastor role at St. Giles or is he just pinch hitting at the request of friend? If its the former we should be judicious in our comments because perhaps the Mooresville experience has chastened him.
I could be off here, but I figure that if a pastor has repented of his abusive ways, then we will see him seeking out every person that he knows he has injured (and if he’s curious, all he has to do is google his own name and he will find a list here to start on) and will repent to them, recognizing the damage he has done, acknowledge it and seek to reconcile with that person.
Doesn’t the scripture say, “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” If this kind of thing is serious enough to walk away from the altar while you are in the middle of OFFERING A GIFT TO GOD (can you imagine how embarrassing it would be to bring an offering to the altar, before the entire place then all of a sudden stand up, leaving your gift behind, and leave the place?) If it is THAT important when you are offering a gift to God, how much more so important is it to go to those you have harmed before you ‘move on’ to pastor a church again.
This is not about not embarrassing him. This is about warning those who may soon be in his care. If he has been chastised, he will spend every day seeking out those he has harmed until he is done, right down to the least of these, my brethern. Once the least of these has been repented to, then I will believe repentance.
Stunned, I don’t know if you were “off” but you cracked me up!
Brent D…
I think in regards to this man, I was hoping that Mr. Canary and I could talk with him if we could ever find him. We hoped that his own shanking from SGM would make him open to understanding at last what we were trying to tell him all those years back. When Pam sent me the link above, I was shocked. Saddened. I certainly do not wish to injure his chances at finding another job. It just looks like “business as usual”. Maybe he has changed. But if he has, wouldn’t he at least try to make things right with people?
Defended, your question about leadership conscience and conviction is so relevant. You are very discerning.
PK, two things.
1) If I am off on what I posted above, please remove any of it.
2) I can’t seem to find the email address we can use to contact you. Would you please post it again so we can get ahold of you?
Thanks,
Stunned
Hey Stunned,
Here’s emails for the Knight (& me):
protestantknight at gmail-dot-com
protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
P.D.
Dang, DB! Bet you had a good time on Monday!
Stunned, I wish we could have lunch sometime.
Brent… Brent….you were totally cracking me up!
I had lunch with Stunned on Monday and, trust me, there’s nothing off about her.
I hope we can, too, Defended. I’d like to meet with everyone here, one of these days.
But even if we all can’t get together down here (which I hope we can), there’s another good reason to look forward to heaven. We’ll all get to be together there, in perfect harmony, perfect unity, in the light of truth and swimming in love and grace.
Word up, heaven!
We will be having “Refuge” parties in heaven for at least the first 250,985,795 years.
By then we’ll have another reason to party.
“Everybody! Over to my house for some “New Wine” next Friday!”
Address: New Jerusalem, the Defender Mansion!
You sleep over at my house-Church of the Inner Springs.
Warning- my mansion in heaven won’t have any kitchen! What a joy to think of never having to cook again!
WOW! As I began reading the St. Giles newsletter I saw that NA (Evangel. Presby pastor) has recently preached at St. Giles. This was very disconcerting to me as I had just read the earlier posts here that Brent had also been there. Apparently, a large number of folks have left NA’s church over the years because of his control and manipulation. His actions and behavior, his pastoral ”authority” and yes even spiritual abuse are strikingly similar to SGM. Frightening to see both of these names in the same newsletter!
Stunned, mine will have a kitchen because that’s where people tend to gather but instead of cooking, I will have replicators like in Star Trek, “Tea, Earl Gray, Hot..”
I’ll be down in Engineering, tossing back Romulan Ale with Kirk & Scottie.
There will be no replicated Ale or Wine in my cellar.
(Doing all I can, to resist the “Old vs New” Star Trek debate.)
Love ya DB!
What was our topic again??
Brent
Brent
Brent
Brent
sgmrefuge.com
sgmsurvivors.com
St. Giles Presbyterian Church
spiritual abuse
legalism
I have been attending KWCC for years and years and I must say this:
You will find no answers to your questions on this blog. I have read all of the postings and am appalled, but not surprised, by the way supposition becomes objective truth on these matters. I am REALLY surprised by some of the reports that are just false at best. For instance, the report of the wives asking all the hard questions at the care group leaders meeting simply wasn’t true. And then to follow it up by saying something to the effect of “Where are the MEN?!?” was just inflammatory. You won’t get your leader from a blog site, that’s for sure. And all the “facts” concerning Steve W…all I can say is wow. I wish Steve would get on here and set some things straight. For instance, the infamous “Gag Order”, was never even followed. My whole care group knew of everything that happened, by Steve’s own words, the very first month he returned from Roanoke.
Closer to the truth was that CJ was preaching against the “Therapeutic Movement” when everything went down with Steve. His situation was dangerously close to the Flavor of the Month demon SGM seems to focus on from time to time. If anything, it could have been used to refute the blanket statements being made about medicine at that time. Ahhh hindsight.
I’m done here. I found this place by accident because a friend called me on Monday from another SGM church and spoke of Brent leaving last year. Monday nite I Googled Brent and found this blog. The last 2 days has been a real eye opener for me. I have been thru 2 church splits/break ups and know of the pain and confusion that sin on a grand scale can bring.
But folks, gossip and slander is not the answer.
I’ll be waiting to see how all this therapeutic massaging affects KWCC at our next family meeting. Should be a hoot.
GNHB… I find your comments rather… ummm… interesting, to say the least, considering that those you are calling liars are your own brothers and sisters from Kingsway. The initial reports are from some who *may* just be more “in the know” than you are, and I must say, much more humble and gracious in their communication here.
Several of your comments stand out to me, but I will only address two here (at the moment…)
1. You are a member of an SGM church closely related to Brent D and you didn’t know that he had left SGM a year ago??? Doesn’t that make you sit up and go “Hmmmm”??? Why weren’t you told? Especially since Brent was one of the top guys… didn’t your leaders think that info was important enough to pass on to the membership? Don’t you think it was important enough?
2. You knew of Steve W.’s “situation” the very first month after it happened and you didn’t do or say anything to rectify this travesty that happened 10 years ago??? TEN YEARS this man and his family suffered under this horrible black cloud that was thrust upon him by your leadership at Kingsway and you just sat by and did nothing??? I’m sorry, man, but that just blows my mind! And you come on this blog doling out correction and judgment? Are you freakin’ kidding me???
Maybe instead of calling everyone here liars, you should take a long look at yourself and the Kingsway leadership… you may be very surprised at what you find out if you look closely and honestly enough.
I’m just sayin’, is all…
Regarding Brett Detwiler
The church link given does have a blog where one can leave comments and the church does have a section where you can leave comments. If they are really “auditioning” Brent Detwiler for a position at their church then they should be made aware of his background one would think. I am kind of surprised if they don’t but you never know.
http://stgilesepc.org/about-us/contact-us/
You could always leave a comment. ;-)
Stunned said:
“Doesn’t the scripture say, “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” If this kind of thing is serious enough to walk away from the altar while you are in the middle of OFFERING A GIFT TO GOD (can you imagine how embarrassing it would be to bring an offering to the altar, before the entire place then all of a sudden stand up, leaving your gift behind, and leave the place?) If it is THAT important when you are offering a gift to God, how much more so important is it to go to those you have harmed before you ‘move on’ to pastor a church again.
This is not about not embarrassing him. This is about warning those who may soon be in his care. If he has been chastised, he will spend every day seeking out those he has harmed until he is done, right down to the least of these, my brethern. Once the least of these has been repented to, then I will believe repentance.”
One would thin that Brent Detwiler would have at least made some type of public statement or even posted something on his website (he use to have one this is now marked “private”) where he issues some type of statement of repentance and confession of sin etc. If one hasn’t done that then it is all the more probably that he will go back and do the same thing. It makes one doubt that he have ever even realize the wrongs he did to so many people that people have shared here.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing:
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve read “…gossip and slander…,” and “…I’m done here,” in drive-by, fire-lit bags of turds for comments like yours, I could go on that well-deserved therapeutic vacation PD and I keep talking about.
You had a long post for essentially saying “liars” to folks here. Save yourself (and me) some time and do just that next time.
–pk
The KingsWay Way isn’t just a play on words. Those of us who were there for many years can pretty much articulate what it means. You pick up on the unwritten rules pretty quickly.
The “culture” that allowed the mistreatment of SW also allowed the mistreatment of many other people — and I hope now that ONE situation has come to light, current members will ask questions about other inexplicable changes, disappearances, etc. Who else is under a “gag order”? How many pastoral dismissals were explained as personal decisions when there was a hidden authoritarian reason for making that ”personal” decision? I do not know if there were any at all, or if there were many. But one thing is sure now — the “trust” factor couldn’t get much lower.
I’m reminded of the Clinton administration — when they said that theirs would be the most honest administration ever. I believe they really intended it to be that way. Similarly, SGM wanted to be the finest expression of Christianity on the planet. I truly believe they really intended it to be that way. But in re-inventing the wheel, they seemingly refused to learn from the older and wiser church movements that have lasted through the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
And so, we’ve come to this horrid realization that our leaders believe that we, as members –oops, we aren’t members, we’re congregants — are not deserving of knowing the truth about the workings of this organization – this organization we’ve cheerfully supported with millions of dollars and uncountable hours of volunteer work. Every question begs another question. The average pew-sitter has got to be asking “WHAT WAS I THINKING?? How could I have been so blind?”
Why is it that everyday workings, personnel changes, problems, and sins that are matters of public record are treated as if national security is at stake? It’s the CHURCH, for goodness sake, not the CIA.
So, this man who followed SGM’s orders to keep from losing his job, lost his job anyway, was publicly scorned, and was never allowed to lead worship, teach, or preach again, though he was allowed to work as administrator of children’s ministry. If his gifts were not welcomed as a guitar player or worship leader, why were his gifts welcomed in what some might consider a thankless job? Is it that worship leaders are more exalted in SGM than children’s minsitry workers — you’ve got to be more “sinless” to be on a worship team than to work with kids? Yet scripture tells us that the greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all. If his ministry gifts were no longer welcome, did they also refuse to accept his monetary gifts?
A few discussions back, one of the former SGM pastors (don’t remember which — Irv or FSGP) mentioned that the self-appointed leader of SGM had often stressed that the church should not be run on sentiment or emotion. As I consider the Kingsway debacle, it’s easy to connect the dots. Without any sentiment or emotion, we become hard-hearted. God gave us emotions. He invented them — not to be used alone for decision-making, but as barometers, thermometers, as part of our lives. How hard-hearted to publicly call someone prideful and unbelieving. Somewhere along the way, did it become more important to follow the law of “no sentiment or emotion” than to extend love, truth and grace?
It all goes back to polity. Does this strange setup of a self-appointed leader who appoints his own underlings and demands deference to his self-appointed authority exist anywhere else in long-standing orthodox Christian denominations? I can only think of similar situations among small independent charismatic churches, but nowhere in the mainstream, and certainly not among the Reformed. There’s sometimes a similar model in parachurch organizations, but you don’t hear parachurch leaders demanding obedience to their leadership.
How simple it could’ve been, if, ten years ago, they’d said, “As you know, SW followed our directive to go to Roanoke to plant a church. He told us of his reluctance to accept this position from the outset, but we believed he was the best man for the job, and we insisted that he go despite his misgivings. However, things haven’t worked out, and we now realize that it’s best for all concerned for SW to return to Richmond. We ask for SW’s forgiveness and for yours, for putting him into a difficult situation. We’ve learned that it was wrong of us to do that, and we promise never to pressure anyone in that way again. Please extend your thanks and appreciation to him for sacrificing his own choice and for working hard to give the church in Roanoke a good start.”
That would’ve been the truth. (I think — only God knows where the truth really lies in this tangled web.) It could’ve been told honestly without damaging anyone.
Oh, well said, PK and Carole!
Steve240, I listened to some of Brent’s “message” at St. Giles. It was on What the Gospel Is Not. He says he is not there to tell them they are teaching the gospel wrongly, but then goes on to tell them what the gospel is not. Very weird. I could not listen to the whole thing. It brought back bad feelings. He seemed unsure of himself, and floundered some. In my opinion, there was little power in his words.
I don’t know if I could say anything at St. Giles to ruin his chances of finding work. I’m too much a softy. However, do we have a responsibility to get involved? Isn’t the work we do here enough? I don’t wish ill upon Brent or his family. I do however still ask what Defended has – where are these mens’ consciences? I wish someone could answer that question.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing
I am puzzled by your comments. At the Sunday night meeting AC was the first person to use the term “gag order” if I am not mistaken. That term was repeated several times during the night. You claim that there never was an actual gag order. (Or at least, it was not followed.) Are you saying that they (meaning AC, GE, SW, and MW) lied at that meeting on Sunday night? Also, I do not know what care group Steve was in at the time, but his current care group leader stood up and tearfully stated that he had no idea this was going on. Were you at the meeting with the care group leaders? Because someone altogether different reported on that, and I have heard from a second source that several wives asked hard questions. Something is not adding up here……If you have good facts that are contrary to what has been said here, and what I witnessed at the meeting, then I would love to hear them. I would have an easier time hearing, however, if you could drop the heavy emotions and stick to the facts.
Silent Running, you are so right. If only the leadership had handled SW’s situation with honesty, the way you explained it, there would have been no problem. Most of us can understand when mistakes are made and then acknowledged. It would have been forgiven and forgotten. Why was there such a great need for leaders to hide the truth?
Canary: Thank you.
Silent Running: Outstanding post at August 25th, 2010 at 9:40 pm e
Eyes Opening: We probably shouldn’t hold our breath for honest answers from GenderNeutralHumanBeing, but your inquiry is honest and appreciated and needs to be answered. GenderNeutralHumanBeing’s account was so wildly oppsite from others here that one word springs to mind: troll.
–pk
I was just re-reading a little, and noticed Heavy Heart’s usage of the word “PROUD” — qualified by “in a godly way.” How sad that SGM’s heavy emphasis on the “sin of pride” renders us reluctant to say we’re “proud of “ something when the term merely shows pleasure or admiration, not sinful proudness.
Saying you’re proud of your kids, or your friends, or your church is a compliment to them, not an admission of sin on your part. Reminds me of the misuse of the word ”gay”.
You know we are hitting the target, when the drive-by’s and trolls start posting.
Dear GenderNeutralHumanBeing,
Your name rocks! I love it. It gave me an early morning smile. Thank you.
You said, “Closer to the truth was that CJ was preaching against the “Therapeutic Movement” when everything went down with Steve. His situation was dangerously close to the Flavor of the Month demon SGM seems to focus on from time to time. If anything, it could have been used to refute the blanket statements being made about medicine at that time. Ahhh hindsight.”
Ha ha. I know what you mean by the Flavor of the Month. Were you in SGM when they spent a long time going on against kids wearing the “WWJD” bracelets? (What Would Jesus Do bracelets?) It killed me.
You also said, “For instance, the infamous “Gag Order”, was never even followed. My whole care group knew of everything that happened, by Steve’s own words, the very first month he returned from Roanoke.”
Two things struck me with this sentence. One is a question. You said, “the infamous “Gag Order”. Are you saying there was a gag order?
The other is a huge concern that you guys knew the truth of what happened to this guy and, (am I reading this right or is there a lot more to your story?) not one person in your homegroup came forward to make this truth publically known for close to a decade?!?!?! Something that was important enough to make Gene Emerson and your pastors hold a public meeting where there was supposedly much repentance for keeping this secret from the rest of the church, yet you did nothing to get the truth out for the past several years? Brother/Sister (this still cracks me up- your name is very funny), if this is true, this is sort of unconscionable and terrifying to me that not only you, but an entire group of people did nothing to correct the lies coming from your pulpit. Reminds me of many of the horrifying times in human history where people could have raised a voice but did nothing.
Silent Running said,
“Similarly, SGM wanted to be the finest expression of Christianity on the planet. I truly believe they really intended it to be that way. But in re-inventing the wheel, they seemingly refused to learn from the older and wiser church movements that have lasted through the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. ”
Yes, yes, yes! Well said. They want to be the finest expression, and some of them, maybe many of them believe they ARE. I did. Therefore, if someone doesn’t line up with the program, follow the directives, live in the mold, it is unthinkable and beyond understanding! For me, it was a strange combination of fear and pride that caused me to sear my own conscience for a season and push the folks who were “different” away. Fear – don’t want the pool to be tainted, so got to keep the riff raff away, especially from my children. Pride – we are “doing it right”, so if you are not going to “do it right”, you’re a lesser Christian than I am. Along with the pride, there was a weird quasi-emotional reaction as well. I think it is best described as pity. It went something like this: “Aw, those poor, dumb, rebellious, independent, prideful, (insert derrogatory adjective here) people. If only, oh if only they would have lined up with the program, if only they would have “done it right”. But we must harden ourselves to them, in some cases put them out of the Body whether it be directly or just out of neglect, and let God work in their lives, however harshly He may have to in order to bring them back to their senses. It’s a shame really.”
This was the reality of the culture at times and apparently in more than one location. The reason I now see it so clearly and have repented for my sin is because we became the odd ducks, the rebellious, independent, prideful problem children, so we felt the impact from the other side and were devastated. Sad to say that’s what it took for me to recognize and be rid of the fear and pride in my own heart, but it is the truth.
So God used PDI/SGM in our lives, but not in the way they thought He would! He did indeed show me areas of pride, just as they accused, but it wasn’t pride that stems from not submitting to my authorities or not “trusting the leadership”. It was a better-than-you, spiritual pride based on the atmosphere created in the church that had to go.
The twisting and contortioning that surrounds these churches in order to protect pastors that are behaving badly is reminding me of the astronomers of the middle ages that developed extremely complex mathematical formulas to preserve the notion that everything in the heavens revolved around the earth.
When the idea that the sun was the center of the solar system was presented, those established in power consiered it heresy even though it was the truth and a hell of a lot easier to calculate planatary movement. But leadership was entreanched, error was codified, truth was persecuted, and history does not smile favorably upon the closed-minded.
I wanted to do a drive by and then leave it. but just like the driver that passes the mangled vehicle on the opposite side of the road, i had to look. be careful of what you want to see.
First of all. “If I had a nickel every time I heard the words gossip and slander..” if you are getting rich on nickels perhaps it’s time to consider the source. And can you really say “turd” on a Christian blog?
Second. There are many emotions that people experience during times such as these. It’s obvious that anger isn’t accepted here. At least the way I experience it. but thats ok. i didn’t come here for consolation or comfort.
Third> Yes there was a gag order. No Steve didn’t follow it. So much of what happened at the family meeting was slanted in it’s presentation. Makes me wonder what the real story is. Why didn’t I say something to leadership? I did. There are 2 sides to every story. Both sides presented truth and both sides presented themselves in the most positive light. Alright! They Lied! Happy? If I got involved in everyone elses sins I’d never have time for my own.
Number 4 –I didn’t say the women at the care group leaders meeting didn’t ask hard questions. I corrected Drewry for reporting to the world that ONLY the women did this and then ask “Where Are The Men?”
So. Let’s review. I am a KWCC member that is angry at the way lies are affecting other members that come here for answers. Yes there are truths being said here. But the lies are affecting my friends. And you don’t think some of this is gossip or slander? What Would Jesus Read?
In the end, I shouldn’t expect anything different. In the land of Blog, this one is typical in it’s coziness. Really, if I didn’t see the words ‘church’ or ‘Christ’ every now and then I wouldn’t be able to tell this one is Godly in content. If people agree with the OP then they are welcomed in. Otherwise You are just labeled a Neutral Gender Human Being or worse.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing
Yes, there is anger here and yes, even some slander and gossip. BUT where else can we get information on what is happening???? Many, if not all of us KCC members, are dying for information on what is going on. We have unanswered questions about the past and about the future. We are still being left in the dark. The care group leaders knew about the last meeting, but us little guys did not. It would be easy for us to think that the issue is just being put on the back burner, left to simmer, and hopefully die out. At least hearing that there was a meeting and that hard questions were asked is letting me know that they are at least doing something. Where it will go from here is anyone’s guess, but this thing is a huge part of our lives. Church has been the center of my world for almost 10 years! We are all trying to get information here. If you can come up with a better way to do that, then please let me know!! As my Daddy used to say “2 wrongs don’t make a right.” If you do not like the display of anger, then please be one of the ones who reaches out without it. If there is misinformation please provide us with correct info. Since you seem to have some friends in high places, perhaps you could suggest that they set up some kind of ‘information central’ where we could get answers to our questions??
Gracie you wrote:! For me, it was a strange combination of fear and pride that caused me to sear my own conscience for a season and push the folks who were “different” away. Fear – don’t want the pool to be tainted, so got to keep the riff raff away, especially from my children. Pride – we are “doing it right”, so if you are not going to “do it right”, you’re a lesser Christian than I am. Along with the pride, there was a weird quasi-emotional reaction as well. I think it is best described as pity. It went something like this: “Aw, those poor, dumb, rebellious, independent, prideful, (insert derrogatory adjective here) people. If only, oh if only they would have lined up with the program, if only they would have “done it right”. But we must harden ourselves to them, in some cases put them out of the Body whether it be directly or just out of neglect, and let God work in their lives, however harshly He may have to in order to bring them back to their senses. It’s a shame really.”
This speaks to my heart! This is how I believed “about myself”….
Gender Neutral: I believe many of us on this blog are just looking for GOD’S WAY…. Not angry at all but still loving the family of Sovereign Grace and the family of God. Anyone is welcome here to discuss the Lord I think but it was developed because people had been WOUNDED AND SHUNNED……..
Paul wrote to the Corinthians that his words were not “wise and persuasive” but rather a “demonstration of the Spirit’s power” in order that their faith “might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power” (1 Cor. 2:4-5)
Remember the Bereans were lifted up as good examples because they questioned the things they were taught. They made sure that even the apostles’ teachings were in line with what was written: Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true… Acts. 17:11
God is good and I believe in total control! I pray that I have never made any one feel that I’m against the family of God on this blog. I found healing in the fact that I did in fact have Godly discernment on some issues and that I wasn’t just a prideful, rebellious woman that would never be able to learn how to submit to Christ, authority or a husband one day! You have no idea how much turmoil my heart was in during the four years of my life when I believed I was such a prideful and horrible person that would never measure up!
THAT IS NOT WHO GOD CREATED ME TO BE!
GNHB-
Thanks for setting some of your statements straight. I’ll not offer the same for your clear misrepresentation of FACTS. The statements that I’ve made are true and have been confirmed prior to posting here with many who were present. I’m not saying these things to inflame you or any of your friends. If you read the entirety of my posts so far, then you’ll see that I am concerned about how this affects ALL of my brothers and sisters. I recognize that some are opposed to the things that I am sharing. I realize that what I am saying, as well as others, appears critical. In some way I suppose it is. But is that wrong?
” Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. ” Winston Churchill
That’s what has occurred here.
GNHB, you may attempt to discredit me. You are welcome to try that. Again, my statements are true:
The women surprisingly outnumbered the men in asking the hard questions at the CGL meeting. I’ve confirmed that from multiple men that were present… even men that don’t agree with me on where I stand in this matter.
As for calling out the men on there leadership. I am not saying that all of the men at KW are absent on this matter. Many are wrestling through and leading in the process of Matt 18, which we at KW are in. I am calling out the men that are absent. This is not a time to be a coward. This is a time to biblically wrestle through the matters of polity, Gene’s sin, other KW leaders role in this, and the churches responsibility both as we handled the past, not only with Steve W. but other families and how we will move forward. This is not a time to sit on the side and pout about feelings. This is the time for men to be men and do it in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures. I’ll ask again, “Where are the Godly men of KW?” I know that you are present. I beg you to take a stand for truth and love, for all of the church! That doesn’t mean posting here or shouting from the rooftops but it does mean acting as the Lord leads each of you, even when your natural tendencies are to be timid or silent.
GNHB, truthfully I don’t know if you’ll take this offer but I’d be delighted to meet with you. These matters, while highly abrasive at times should not divide us if at all avoidable. We may not agree on all of the issues at hand, or any, but I’d definitely like the opportunity to bring reconciliation between you and I. It’s obvious that my words have affected you and it appears were the catalyst to prompt your anger. I’d like to resolve that if we can. My convictions here are firm but please give me a chance. I’m really not unreasonable.
There are not “two-sides to every story.” There are only two perceptions of that story. Take the information and wisely compare it to the absolute teaching of Scripture and you’ll find that this is wrong in many ways. Gene is not alone in that. The church is too. Your own words of having knowledge and not saying anything, testifies to that. I know that probably angers but it is true. Many others are also responsible of the same. It was and in some ways is still the culture of KW and SGM. We’d rather do anything to avoid friction. The teaching of unity is often skewed to lead us to believe that we shouldn’t say anything that could be perceived as hard.
Jonathan Edwards had a great understanding of Ephesians 4. He described the unity that was spoken of in that text as that which grows us up into the same understanding of faith in Christ. That’s quite different than practicing the over-looking of sin to spare us of any hardship which might cause division. Edward’s understanding of unity will cause division but the division will only come between those that are moving towards Christ and those that are not. It will only unify those seeking to be built up together in Christ.
This situation is not one that should cause division. This is an amazing opportunity to grow closer together as we all move towards Christ. That’s why we can not ONLY look to love for the brethren OR truth but both must be held as precious and understood that true unity in Christ came only come with truth spoken in love, the truth of Scripture… not your view or mine.
Ephesians 4:13-15 “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by the craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.”
We need to put aside this nonsense of extra-biblical teachings and out and out falsehoods. The Scriptures plainly state to speak the truth in love. It is the means God uses to have us grow up into Christ (unity). This is the measure of unity, not the cunning speeches that many give about building relationships. Let’s unify and let’s build relationship, but let’s do it in truth. What you are seeing now is that message brought into the light. No one is pretending that this will be easy but it must be done.
One last thought!
I would love it if some of the woman I thought so much of still desired to have me a their Sister in Christ…. I desired to be LIKE THEM!
I now know who I am in Christ…. I love the Lord with all of my heart and I still love them. I still love the Pastor that counseled me through many HARD TIMES….
I just don’t agree with all of their ways… This doesn’t make speaking TRUTH – Wrong!
Bruised, you have a beautiful heart in the Lord. That you can still love those who hurt you is a great testimony of God’s love within you.
Hi Gracie! I hope you are doing well…:)
PK,
Do you know if the pastors at Kingsway have offered or are willing to visit with individual members in order to answer questions and concerns?
Chuck
Bruised, the above about what you were made to be and the fact that you are NOT a prideful, rebellious woman that would never be able to learn how to submit to Christ, authority or a husband one day, I just want to say, AMEN! That is NOT you, Sister. it is so clear that you have a heart to want to love God and follow Him in spit eof your fallen nature (that we ALL have).
Mike D.,
Any time you quote Churchill, you’ll have me at your side. (Usually laughing. He was the funniest of all politicians in my book.)
Bruised said, “Remember the Bereans were lifted up as good examples because they questioned the things they were taught. They made sure that even the apostles’ teachings were in line with what was written.”
A-MEN!
Mike D. said, “but it does mean acting as the Lord leads each of you.”
Amen, amen and amen. Oh Lord, let it be so. I long to see the day when God leads us each and we hear what He is telling us individually.
I know it seems to some that if God is leading Person A to do X then Person B should be doing X. But then who will do Y or Z or P? (Forgive me, I’ve taught one too many math classes.) I often imagine God being like a general in an army. He is not going to send ALL his troops to the left flank and leave the cannons and fighter jets empty. He has a different plan for EACH of us. And it’s a beautiful thing.
Stunned
The day that we think God would prefer “unity” at the expense of truth and another man’s soul, we forget the words of Jesus in Matt. 10. “”Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Bruised, dear sister, I am guessing you no longer desire to become like anyone who would shun another simply for no longer being in the same church. It doesn’t sound like you at all. It’s much too cold, and much beneath the way God made you to be. I am only saying that in case you had never considered this. Become just the way He leads you to be. That will be the best.
Stunned, the church promotes “uniformity” while the Holy Spirit desires “unity”. They both look very different from one another!
Eyes Opening wrote:
Yes, there is anger here and yes, even some slander and gossip. BUT where else can we get information on what is happening???? Many, if not all of us KCC members, are dying for information on what is going on. We have unanswered questions about the past and about the future. We are still being left in the dark.
Thank you EO for this simple sheep’s plea to be in the know. That is why they come here. KW leaders, please don’t be elitist; keep your flock informed. They love you, they deserve your trust.
Mike, brother, keep carrying the torch. Your love for God and His people, and your passion for the truth is evident in all your words.
P.D.
Yes, GNHB, I can really say “turd” on a Christian blog. Because, from my perspective, that’s about how much profundity your first appearance here had.
It came off as you essentially telling others here that they don’t have a grip on the truth, to not point fingers, not to slander and not to gossip…and then you proceeded to buttress this by telling everyone here that your persepective is the truth, and essentially pasted anyone who disagreed with you language that essentially said, “liars!”
The nickel and turd imagery are illustrations, GNHB. Imagery designed to drive a point home. If these images are disturbing to you, please start by chastising the Apostle Paul for his “filthy rags,” “open grave,” and “dung” statements, and then you can move down the list of those in the Bible who have done the same. Let me know how it works out for you when get to Christ Himself. You can bet Paul used the vernacular of the day, and that our English translations blunt the sharp edge.
GNHB, if you come running into a room throwing chum at people–yes, I can say “chum” on a Christian blog–don’t be surprised if someone tells you what they think about chum-throwing, and certainly don’t retort with weak “consider the source” language that’s on par with a third grader saying, “look what you made me do!” Consider the source of poor leadership that has left so many sheep bloodied and scattered. You remind me of leaders who hold such an impossibly high standard of their flock members, yet leave themselves exempt from such standards by the way they live their lives and what falls out of their mouths.
If you want to address subjects here and voice objections, don’t start by calling people liars, and then act surprised when they don’t appreciate it, and certainly don’t act surprised when the blog moderator doesn’t appreciate it.
SGM has had a voice and bully pulpit for decades, and has a slightly better marketing dept. budget that can watch its back. The folks here don’t, aside from this blog. Many are here because the appeals to leadership at multiple levels regarding ill practices in SGM they made went unanswered at best, and got smashed at worst. Some are starting to sit up and pay attention, ranging from gracefully conceding to grudgingly admitting that (drum roll) not everyone on this blog is a liar. And this blog that is filled with so much untruth, according to you, has helped facilitate many reconciliations, so far…many more need to happen, and SGM should undergo radical refromation in the opinion of many, but it’s not a limited, subjective view when so many people describe patterns of poor practices nationally in SGM churches. The latest newsflash here is that KingsWay is not on the cleaner end of the washcloth than any of the other churches. The problems tend to be systemic, as in movement-wide, hence these blogs were born when Christians had the guts to put two and two together.
You are not on the cleaner end of the washcloth than other KW members/ex-members here. At least exhibit some sort of pretense in this vein before you keep firing machine guns in every direction.
Yes, I can say “machine gun” on a Christian blog.
–pk
machine gun
machine gun
machine gun
(sorry, couldn’t resist)
Oh, I have been downright scatological on Christian blogs and elsewhere.
In fact, I was discussing fossils with Julianna this morning and she asked if egg shells could be preserved to which I replied not onl egg shells but the embryos inside in fact we have dinasaur eggs.
She was thrilled.
Then I said dinoturds have been found to which she responded in typical pre-adolescent disgust.
Which eased when I assured her they were too old to stink.
And that we could analyze (excuse the pun) the contents to determine diet (at least in theory.)
Which reminds me, I told her that she might be able to find some for sale on ebay and I did promise I would check so I’m off to fulfill a promise <g>
Stunned,
NO I WOULDN’T SHUN ANYONE!
But have been Shunned………………………………
I was just replying to Gracie…. In all honesty.. I was never “totally allowed in”…
was loved and treated amazingly during my courtship process… but once that ended… So did my open door to the SG family!
PK, don’t forget to leave out the part where Paul tells the legalistic people that he wishes they would go all the way with circumcision and cut off their entire…
I love the scientific mind of DB.
Mr. Canary has dino poop! It is fossilized…not a smidgen of stink…sorta like an SGM conflict that ages…no more smell but it is still poop!
Eyes Opening— You expressed the DEEP GAPING HOLE in sgm leadership:
Their lack of being open and honest (truthful, no smoke-screens,manipulations,
human cunnings, or spinnings) with the congregants.
And the questions begs to be asked:
WHY do they so separate themselves from simply speaking all the truth to their
fellow Christians???????? WHY do they go to such lengths to do so????
Why not reflect Jesus Christ, who never deviated from truth???????????
Why such a common coziness with deception and deflection????
Why not continue to have open meetings with ALL KingsWay membership???
What do they have to hide…or seek to control?????
Mike D words: (men) “I beg you to take a stand for truth and love for all of the church.”
**** WHY WOULD YOU NOT ???????? ****
Obviously, the Lord has brought KingsWay into the light — it is ever so much wiser to
fight in the full light of day rather than the dark. Ask —Seek — Knock — for Truth
Chuck:
Apologies I missed your question (until now): “PK, Do you know if the pastors at Kingsway have offered or are willing to visit with individual members in order to answer questions and concerns?”
I don’t have personal knowledge of this, but Kingsway pastors and members would know. Any of you at KW want to answer Chucks’ question?
Apologies again, Chuck, for the delayed response.
Ideally I pray they (pastors) would be/are doing this, and my prayer would be that it’s not a table-turning session (i.e., it turns into a discussion about the member’s sin rather than answering concerns about the church). The table-turning has typically been the pattern based on the experiences of most here on the blog who’ve been members in SGM churches, but I hope and pray sobriety on the part of the pastors is what takes place.
–pk
All this deep discussion about dino-turds and machine guns has put me in the mood to watch Jurassic Park, where there’s a great shot of a Triceratops pile (Jeff Goldblum: “Dino…droppings…droppings?”) and a wonderful scene of a teenager getting showered with dino-snot from a dino-sneeze.
PD, we really must get the Jurassic Park DVD…We haven’t had our VHS (8-track) version for years. Bring on the dinosaurs.
Apologies if this is too much levity, I had a compulsion to lighten things up here temporarily…okay, back to the serious stuff…
–pk
In reference to the willingness of KW pastors to meet with individuals or to even offer such…
They have repeatedly delivered mass invitations to have anyone that feels “they may have been wronged” to come to them individually. As for turning the tables, I don’t know. I haven’t heard of any specific recent cases. Deflecting blame, yes… more subtle that way.
Love the movie, PK. You can get the Jurassic Park Trilogy at Amazon for $17.99 on DVD. FYI…NOW back to the serious stuff…
Turning the tables has been such a typical response from SGM leaders over the years when a member brings questions or correction to them (I’m sure there must be exceptions). It’s best to go prepared if you choose to meet with a pastor. Even better to go in a group because there is strength in numbers.
There are dinoturds on ebay (more thrilled than I should be.)
So, PK, since the dinoturds are creating a spirit of levity, I presume they’re floaters and not sinkers.
Ducking.
PK,
We don’t have this movie?! What?! (I say this a lot at our house, BTW).
“Bring on the dinosaurs!” and while we’re at it….
“Release the Kraken!”
P.D.
Jurassic Park = I love that movie!
KW = about time. But the leadership knows of several they have wronged…it is THEIR responsibility to go to them. Or forsake prayer and communion.
A friend of mine, (probably reading this, hey girlfriend!), left KW. No contact from anyone there. CGL calls a year later and tells HER to call Gene, he wants to talk to her.
Do those guys even READ scripture?
Perhaps they teach this stuff in seminaries that aren’t only eight months long, but a shepherd gives his life for his sheep, not the other way around.
DB, Our grandsons would be beyond thrilled to be the owners of dinoturds!! Exciting!
RT, In regards to your friend who left KW a year go, who was contacted by a CGL to
“tell HER to call Gene, he wants to talk to her.” — This sounds more like a summons
from a government official/dictator/king. Hmmmmmm…. could this be because
Gene stands in the ‘ very stead of God ‘, therefore said former congregant must
ever so quickly enter into his court? With the proper peon demeanor, of course.
– This is typical typical typical sgm leadership.
It made her feel like a bug.
WOW, things sure have been moving along hot and heavy since I lasted looked. For those at Kingsway, MB stands for Mark Bogert. My first post a few days ago highlighted Bob Dixon’s incredible and authentic example of a true Sheppard’s heart in his nine year quest to have Steve W. restored. I had wanted to make KCC and SGM aware of how significant his actions have been to the body of Christ.
As we (KCC) walk through this difficult time, many members are not sure what to think. For some, the information is so new and incomplete. It is both confusing and disturbing to others for many reasons. I (we) have believed that following our leadership is tantamount to following Christ. I (we) have given almost complete deference to leaderships authority in almost all spiritual and church matters. In short, I (we) have been very passive and neglectful of our responsibility. We all have been good followers at KCC. The challenge I have had to face this last year is, who am I a good follower of? I know that following leadership and following God is not contradictory, however following leadership is always subordinate to following God. As I have shifted my focus away from man and set it completely (as much as I am able) on following Christ, His Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit, a REVOLUTION is taking place. I am full of hope and faith in God, to bring His bride (KCC) face to face with Himself. He is the Chief Sheppard, we can trust Him if we trust Him alone. His Word and Spirit will guide us. Pray without ceasing.
I’m glad she is outta there – and still, GE remains clueless to his own actions.
So much work: pick up the phone, find the CGL’s number (he has moved out of town), explain the situation to him, tell him to call her and tell her the message. CGL finds her number, calls her, explains the situation.
Just logically, apart from spiritual and dominance game playing, it would take so much less time.
Grow up, GE. You don’t live in a vacuum.
DB, You crack me up! (Sinkers or floaters?)
I was a little boy playing in the dirt many years ago, and found this strange crescent shaped stone. I used to haul it around in my Tonka trucks in the sand box.
I still have that strange shaped stone.
Then recently while watching “Jurassic Park”, in the opening scene where the scientist is talking to the little boy about the seriousness of the Raptors, he took from his pocket a fossilized Raptor claw. (I thought OMG!)
This was only in the last year, I realized, that my funny stone is a Raptor claw.
So, ya just never know what kind of “gems” you may have laying around.
Turds or claws, it’s just amazing sometimes.
Speaking of turds, any more “news” from our gender neutral “friend?”
Funny how Mike and Mark come here, engage graciously, use their OWN names, speak with logic and grace.
Yet the one with all truth comes here, and doesn’t even disclose their sex.
Whatever.
RT said it made her feel like a bug, was she a dung beetle?
MB wrote: “I (we) believed that following leadership was tantamount to
following Christ………..”
MB, did you happen to read over on Survivors, Irvs post #50 under
the KingsWay thread?? He outlines the foundations of PDI/sgm beginnings
of both pastoral leadership authority and the priority importance of the
“local church” (‘local church’ the sgm way). Irv was a sgm pastor and shares the
inside manipulations of sgm leadership.
Irv— A late thankyou for your complete honesty on the #50 post. Refreshing
and so encouraging to see how the Lord has worked His Redemption into your
lives. He can and does deliver us from those religous vipers!
(Remember, sgm,— Jesus the Christ declared the Pharisees to be vipers)
MB — Hey, Mark! I’ve always thought the world of you and P. Thanks for posting here.
When we first joined SCR back in the dark ages, we were concerned that in a church with no elders / deacons that there would be no accountability. It was explained to us that the “leadership team” worked closely with the pastors, thereby providing accountability. BD and BM were, to my knowledge, always part of that leadership team – both these men, if you ask me, are beyond reproach, and have had our utmost respect for many years.
And here’s the rub. Their pleas were ignored for nine years. So much for accountability. So much for the leadership team having any influence over a rogue pastor. How terribly, terribly sad. A pastor hand-picks his leadership team — and when they turn out not to be “yes men”, he spends nine years fighting their input.
Oh, and the invitation for wronged people to contact the pastors and come in for a chat? Hogwash. Nobody in their right mind wants to walk into a lion’s den and hear, “First, let’s talk about your sin”, or the latest catch phrase, “Perhaps this isn’t the church for you.”
It could be that many people have already forgiven and do not harbor any ill feelings. Even so, they deserve the courtesy of an apology. The leaders know who they’ve wronged. It’s their responsibility to make amends — and not in their own cozy offices — they must go. It’s the biblical thing to do. It may take a long time, but it will be time well spent.
(Did anybody see Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Gotta Give”? His character spent six months looking up all the women he’d wronged — and in the process, he learned the truth about himself. and became a better person. Not exactly a biblical example, but you get the drift.)
One more thing. When this situation became public and the Kingswayers started posting on the blogs, a huge burden lifted from me. I hadn’t even realized it was there — but I had been burdened that the wonderful people of this church had been deceived and didn’t know it. But now they know, and another layer of healing has begun. Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow!
God is at Work
I am confident that God is at work
In spite of all the confusion about
He knows where evil does lurk
And that is without a doubt
Evil lives within us all
That’s what the bible states
So why come here to brawl
For a church in dire straits
Better go to bended knee
For His will must be done
The truth will set them free
And glorify His only Son
Join together as saints to pray
For a miracle to occur
We’ll stand together on that day
No more will we differ
I beg you all to pray and stand in the gap for the beloved at Kingsway! Be assured that God is directing and will have His way here. Rather than speculating and talking about the situation here anymore, I beg of you with a sincere and needy heart to begin to post prayers for the saints of Kingsway, for the pastors and for the men that are standing in the gap. All of them sinners, all in need of God’s wonderful and never ending grace. In the end God will have His way here at Kingsway, of this we can be certain. Amen!
Can I ask a simple question? How big (members?) is KWCC?
Meet in a building or a school?
thanks…..gotta go check out ebay now….
Silent Running! I keep thinking of the Jack Nicholson character in that movie, too! How come the author of that movie (someone who is most likely not a believer), seems to get repentance and restitution but a supposed minister of the gospel has to be told about it on a blog?!
They built a large building about five-six years ago…maybe more, did a recent addition. Lots of property in a bedroom suburb of Richmond. Met in a local school for years, using the name Southside Church of Richmond.
Numbers? I don’t know–500-750?
Because prayers are not written out on a blog does not mean that they are not being sent to the father. Perhaps many of you are comfortable doing that; in my case, I pray to the Father, and don’t have the slightest inclination to write out the words my heart cries out on a blog. Jesus rebuked the pharisee in the temple for praying before man, to be commended for his noble humble words (although I seriously doubt we’d have this problem here, my sisters and brothers here are wonderful, thoughtful, godly people).
I suspect, Poet, this is not the place for you, but thank you for your graciousness and good advice. Perhaps you could read through many of the stories of hurt and grief before you come here and tell these brothers and sisters to shut up.
Many are praying for KW and other SGM churches. I don’t sense any brawling here, could you be more specific?
Poet,
I can say from my heart…. I do believe your prayer! GOD IS AT WORK….
Many have been hurt and wounded… they are all just trying to heal and sincerely praying that God touch hearts! I believe this.
We all know what WE DESERVE IN THIS LIFE…… Death…. But praise God
that Christ has allowed us to receive GRACE… SOMETHING NONE OF US DESERVE! God is moving and most on this site are EXCITED ABOUT THAT and optimistic that his BRIDE will repent and turn from following man to following the Lord…..
Stunned: (Did anybody see Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Gotta Give”? His character spent six months looking up all the women he’d wronged — and in the process, he learned the truth about himself. and became a better person. Not exactly a biblical example, but you get the drift.)
I agree…. good example of what all of us should do…..
Especially when we come before the Lord for communion/Lords supper… it is at that time that we certainly should be reminded who we may need to RUN TO AND ASK FOR THEIR FORGIVENESS!
I keep thinking I’m healed enough to move beyond this site but I find my heart coming back and wanting to lift up his church family EVEN MORE!
Poet,
You and those at King’s Way are saints! Paul constantly addressed his letters to the saints of such and such. Using the “sinner” excuse for the wrong doings by your pastor is just a cop out. One of the major ways the saints in SGM have even discovered the truth about the control and deception among some of its leadership is because of this blog. Believe me, this is not a fun experience. We don’t wake up in the morning and think, “Oh goody, I get to go post all the awful things I know about SGM.” We do this because it is a cause we feel deeply about. We are warning the saints in SGM to seek reform, to stand boldly for the Lord as they speak out and ask questions without fear. Many of us did talk with our pastors and got the ole’ heave ho – “it’s your sin” and “maybe this is not the church for you” was said often enough to be a pattern. One day maybe you will have your own conflict with leadership and then be thankful we were here to warn you. I hope that never happens to you but, if it does, we’re here for you.
Maybe this needs to be said again (it’s been said so often but oh well…): We are not here to destroy SGM. We are here to call out for reform because we love all the saints we were forced to leave there. We are a refuge for those who are leaving right now and for those who have left in the past due to pastoral abuse. PK can probably say it better, but there you are. Also, we do pray for SGM. How can we not? THEY are part of US, the church, the Body of Christ. Hope this doesn’t sound too stern – I haven’t had my coffee yet – so I’m being blunt. Welcome to the blog, by the way!
Brawl— ‘ To quarrel or fight noisely; a rough noisey quarrel or fight ‘
Poet— Methinks you mistake reporting events for a “brawl”??
Please reread many of the posted prayers on this thread from saints who are
interceeding for KingsWay. Some post prayer — and most or probably all,
posting here, are praying on a continuous basis…. First, of course, it is good to
know specifics on HOW to pray. Its a battle. Strategy is necessary.
For those standing in the gap at KingsWay and for KingsWay:
Nehemiah 4: 6, 13-14
“So we built the wall and the whole wall was joined together to half its height, for the people had a mind to work.”
“…….then I stationed MEN in the lowest parts of the wall, THE EXPOSED PLACES,
and I stationed the people in families with their swords, spears and bows.
(note— each family/person was strong in a particular means of warfare)
When I saw their fear, I rose up and spoke to the nobles, the officials, and the rest of the people: ‘Do not be afraid of them; REMEMBER THE LORD WHO IS GREAT
AND AWESOME, AND FIGHT FOR YOUR BROTHERS, YOUR SONS,
YOUR DAUGHTERS, YOUR WIVES, AND YOUR HOUSES.’
Note verse 20 –Nehemiah stationed a trumpeter in each area, so whatever area was under attack , where the enemy breached the wall (battling sgm: lies,schemes,manipulations,smokescreens,aggresions)–the trumpet was blown to report the exposed place — the warriors engaged and fought, and triumphed.
Praying/battling………………..
Waters said, “Note verse 20 –Nehemiah stationed a trumpeter in each area, so whatever area was under attack , where the enemy breached the wall …the trumpet was blown to report the exposed place — the warriors engaged and fought, and triumphed.”
AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN!
It was Silent Running who first brought up the Jack Nicholson thing. Great thinking, Silent.
Stunned
who will NEVER be called Silent but has longed for it throughout her life!
Poet–interestingly enough, it is because of this blog that your stuff at Kingsway is happening. God has used this as a catalyst in many ways, both for healing and for reform.
Hello everyone,
I’m not a regular poster here, this is actually only my 2nd or 3rd post. I am a former “PDIte” (left right about the time it became SGM) so I go WAY back. Some of you who are here from Kingsway (Southside when I was there) may remember me (or not
as Anita Stokes.
When I heard a few years back that something happened to SW, I was very sad, as I and my (Ex) spent MANY hours with them – we were in their homegroup. However, I knew nothing about the events or what happened, as SGM is wonderful about keeping their dirty little secrets by using the excuse of “not gossiping”. Amazing how much you can hide by taking advantage of the trusting hearts of people . . .
Anyway, I just wanted to say that it absolutely sickens me to hear of the torment they have been through. All I can say is how terribly sorry I am that they were victims of yet another “debacle” by supposed Godly men.
If I had not REPEATEDLY experienced for myself the hypocrisy, ineptitude and unrighteous judgment of these so called “leaders” (I was coerced and manipulated by leadership into staying in a completely abusive and tormenting marriage way back in 1987 at “Metro Life” when I had FULL biblical rights to divorce – if you know what I mean) I would be shocked and bewildered by this revelation, but I know it all too well. It is no small wonder that the world wants nothing to do with “American Christianity”. At best, it is impotent and at worst, poisonous and deadly. Yet another reason I will never set foot inside another church. (I’ve been a Christian for 40 years.)
Much of church leadership today is no better than the Catholic church in Luther’s day, telling people to “pay” the priests in order to get their loved ones out of purgatory. These so-called leaders have a LOT of explaining to do.
I am now GLORIOUSLY happy and married to a wonderful man who clearly hates manipulation and control as much as I do. The ONLY sadness in my life is that my “Ex” has subtly manipulated my two youngest children into believing outright lies about me and they have not spoken to me since last Christmas (remember your lessons from PDI/SGM – we cannot associate with “sinners”). Seems he learned his lessons well . . . Oh, and I was a homeschooling mother for 20 years and gave up everything to devote myself to my family, which I will NEVER regret doing!
Manipulation and control is poison, and destroys everything it touches. But I am glad to see that their sin is FINALLY being “shouted from the rooftops”!! Time for them to join the ranks of the REST of us “sinners” instead of being the “Untouchables”!
Free at last, free at last!!! Thank God Almighty, I’m free at last!!
Anita (formerly Stokes) Moore
Canary! You and those at King’s Way are saints! Paul constantly addressed his letters to the saints of such and such. Using the “sinner” excuse for the wrong doings by your pastor is just a cop out. One of the major ways the saints in SGM have even discovered the truth about the control and deception among some of its leadership is because of this blog.
Way to tell it!! Preach it Sister!
while the poetic version of “shut up” was clever, I continue to shake my head at brothers or sisters IN THE LORD calling each other “evil”!! WHAT does this say about the precious price Jesus paid for our souls?! There is so much more in the Scriptures about how God sees us thru the blood of Jesus as precious, seated with Him in heavenly places and a NEW CREATION in Christ!
Of course we have a battle with our flesh but by the power of God, He helps us win as we focus on Him, not our sin!
Amen, Defended! Just saw your two campers and they are doing fine. Thanks for the goodies,too!
Anita – We rejoice with you and praise God for your freedom and your new life. Thank you for sharing your story and your heart. Know that we will pray for the restoration with your children. At the end of the day truth will prevail.
What started as a response to GNHB, has turned out to be a lengthy explanation and confession of sorts. I did not intend this but spoke freely. I hope that the explanations and examples from my life might help some in their quest for God’s truth and the rich fulfillment He alone brings.
GNHB- Thank you for posting here, I mean it. I assume you are one of my brothers at KCC. I would like to touch on one idea you talked about that affects both of us. If the following does not apply to you, please disregard. A lot of the following applies to me and perhaps to others. You said, “Alright! They lied! (leaders) Are you happy?” They lie, you lie, we all lie; what’s a person to do. A witch hunt? No. Deal with it. Cope, its part of your life, its part of my life. Do I have your sentiments correct? Yet, you state in your earlier post that you are angry for how all the lies here are affecting your friends. I would be angry too. You are upset about these lies here, however not so much about leadership’s? (If they have). There is a clear contrast that you seem to accept in your treatment of individuals. You are very upset at one group of liars but you are not of another. You seem to give your leaders a pass. It is not about the lie per say, but what you do in response to it, more specifically, what you believe about them. I would like to suggest that you believe that leadership is somehow fundamentally different and they deserve different treatment. You may also believe that it is not yours or the church’s responsibility to hold them accountable. We all understand that when we lie there are consequences and we also recognize that when leadership participates in lies the consequences are magnified. So if you do believe that leadership should be treated differently, the difference is greater accountability not giving any sort of pass.
The culture of deferment to leaders is well entrenched. There are numerous examples of this. These examples are understood well from Irv’s post on Survivors, Kingsway#50. Thank you, Irv. I would like to use examples from my own life to help illustrate this and demonstrate a degenerating cycle that I have been part of and caught in. The cycle goes like this. First, a well positioned lie (that is I believe error).Second, cloaked idolatry (that is my actions support and convince me of the lie) Third, deception (that is by giving in to the lie in both belief and practice I cannot see the lie for what it is). As I have attempted to look with open eyes, study the word and ask God, a new awareness has come that has helped me see the fruit of this in my life.
I would like to interject here that we also have to be careful that we esteem men more by their actions of godliness and love than by their talk of it. A prime example of this is Bob’s actions toward the lost sheep (Steve W.) as compared to leadership’s actions. Please understand, this is not about condemning our leaders or leadership but about recognizing truth in word and deed and how it protects all of us in the body of Christ.
Okay the fact is, lies affect us all deeply. Lies are the very foundation of deception. Lying is not a small matter, for the moment we participate in this darkness, if we persist; we begin to lose our ability to see the truth. We may become deceived. Lies have affected me and they have affected you. I believe, you and I are in this very place because of lies. Deception is serious. When deceived, we no longer fear God but don’t even know it. I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment. While I wouldn’t state it this way, my heart was drawn to this reality, this love. Think about this. Think about our confidence in these things. I remember in the earlier days being enamored by our church and SG. To be honest, I was more interested in the inviting people to church then inviting them to Christ, sad I know. For a while KCC and SGM seemed to me to be a Christianized sociological masterpiece of 30 something friendships. I loved it. I was far more interested and better at “love bombing” visitors then evangelism and discipleship. Why? Because this is what I wanted, this is what stimulated me, this is what I believed in, along with God of course. It was the belief (lie) that these things (leaders, church, and organization) will meet my needs for fulfillment that caused the worship of them. So, I took these otherwise very good things and in my belief (lie) looked to them, submitted to them and worshipped them synonymous with God. By believing this lie I grew in my own deception. While these thoughts were all supported by half truths, I became a religious idolater. As I lost my ability to discern, I got caught in this vicious cycle. As long as I accepted the lie, Satan the father of lies, had a place to work in my life. Having believed that I needed these things for my meaning and fulfillment, I also believed that I must protect them, guard them and defend them because in large part, this is where I believed life was found. I remember not too long ago how personally offended and callous I felt toward people who dared to leave our church. Very noteworthy was my lack of love and judgmental thoughts toward a brother or sister for deciding to worship elsewhere. I took this somewhat personally, they rejected what I loved. I struggled with this. This was some of the fruit of my religious idolatry. It saddens me today to think about this. I have always thought of myself as more independent and believed that I was not so deeply affected however I was deceived. I write this because this may be affecting you as well. I wish I were totally free of these effects however as I have recently discovered, I am not.
What we see in this simple illustration is how Christ and his love were obscured by “this whole church thing”. My love and adoration of leaders, church, and organization contended for the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ. In Exodus 34:14, God’s name is jealous. God is a jealous God. He is jealous for his glory. He is jealous for us to love and obey him not only because it brings him glory but it also brings us good. He purifies us out of his love for us, even the very best of things that interfere with his receiving all glory. In my opinion, this is exactly what is going on at KCC and SGM. Because of his great love, he is purifying his bride.
I would not have believed that I put leaders, church, or organization before Christ, his Word or the Holy Spirit. I simply believed these things were part of my love for God. What challenged this was an awareness of the degree to which I desired, preferred, depended and acted on these things instead of God’s Word and his Spirit. By God’s grace this became very clear to me the other day.
I have a real burden for our church. I knew of a significant meeting last Friday a week ago with the CGL’s and the pastors. Believing that what is unseen (spiritual) is more an essence of reality (eternal) then the seen, I knew that and unseen battle for truth would take place. Prayer, a primary weapon of our warfare would be needed. I believed that members should gather at the church to stand in the gap and pray while the meeting was taking place. Yet, I had a check to that thought and leading. Unsure of how this meeting would be received by leadership, I called my CGL. He was concerned as well and suggested I call people to pray. I sent out an e-mail through a friend instead. I believe many people prayed fervently and God answered. What could be missed here and what should not be missed was my deferment to what (I believed) my leaders wishes were over what I believed God’s wishes were. Whether my leaders would have liked this or not is not the real issue. I made following man more important than following God. In this brief interaction, I woke up to the depths of deception that I still had accepted in my own heart. Could it be possible that I neglected prayer, corporate prayer and obedience to God because I had willingly accepted the fear of man in the name of submission? I know the truth. It is idolatry to fear man more than God. We have fancy ways to justify it all, but thanks be to God for his revelation and repentance. God is a jealous God. He will not give his glory to another, be it leaders, a church or an organization. He will purify his bride, which is all of us, for our good.
With regards to quarrels, dissensions, and fractions of which we are all concerned at KCC, we must realize that these occur because of conflicting beliefs as to where life is really found. If we believe, consciously or unconsciously that leadership, church, or an organization has made our living significant, than when this is threatened we seek to preserve and defend it or else we lose life. As David Neeham has said, “… a goal (in this case, optimal church) can easily become THE goal and as such it becomes the measurement of where life or meaning is to be found. It then becomes an idol-a very fragile idol at that. As an idol, they cannot help but cast a shadow on the priority of God-his joy, his sufficiency, his glory”. My concern is that as long as idolatry and deception of this kind remains, darkness remains. Our only hope for true unity is found in the complete emptying of ourselves to obey Christ and see Christ as our all in all. His Spirit will lead us and Word will guide us. Our faith and confidence is in God alone.
I’m sorry for extending this post, but I must exhort my brothers and sisters at KCC to obeying God’s word and pray. With that said, the words to this song,” How He Loves” by David Cowder are awesome.
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realise just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all
Yeah, He loves us,
Oh! how He loves us
MB:
Simply an outstanding comment at August 28, 2010 at 1:12 pm.
–pk
MB – no apology needed on the extended post. You have effectively and accurately expressed what a good many of us lived with while in the confines of PDI/SGM.
I can’t remember if I had commented before on “Seek First” but I will re-comment anyway — Jesus said to Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness. Too many of the church leaders are teaching and living “Seek first the church and our righteousness”. Think about that!
When we seek first the church it is all about us no matter how many times we sing “It’s all about You”. The focus is not that we have been made righteous but eradicating sin so we can produce our own righteousness (impossible of course). I could go on for days on this one. When the focus is us we produce the things of the flesh not the things of the Spirit.
Then it is all the things MB stated.
One last statement — Seeking first the church produces in pastors and leaders; “it is about them and THEIR ministry not equipping the saints for the work of the ministry”.
Enough said – but great post MB!!
MB,
I read your post with both great soberness (seeing myself in your confessions) and great excitement for how the Lord is using your clear, articulate voice to speak to one and all. In other words, your post rocks! Please feel our love & appreciation.
P.D.
“If there is one doctrine I have preached more than another, it is the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints even to the end.”
Charles H. Spurgeon
The Truth
Sweet sounding is thy Savior’s name
When uttered by His saints
Call upon thy holy flame
To loosen all constraints
The more the light is brought to bear
Deception it shall exposed
Dissension is only satan’s snare
For the truth must be disclosed
For all things now to fall in place
The truth must freely come
Until it comes we’re left to chase
Just beatings of a drum
Pray my friends for only truth
And truth come but complete
Remember not the folly of youth
For truth will taste so sweet
Lord, ready your saints at Kingsway! Help them to persevere as they are called to do and do so on their knees. God is at work and He will have His way. Lord let the light come and dispel all darkness. Amen!
Anita said-
If I had not REPEATEDLY experienced for myself the hypocrisy, ineptitude and unrighteous judgment of these so called “leaders” (I was coerced and manipulated by leadership into staying in a completely abusive and tormenting marriage way back in 1987 at “Metro Life” when I had FULL biblical rights to divorce –
I just like to say Anita, I am very sorry that you were coerced and manipulated to stay in an abusive marriage. I think if a church was healthy and the leaders wise and discerning ,they would not have given you that outrageous advice. It’s just so stupid that a leader would tell you that. That really ticks me off!! Unfortunately I know of other cases as well where this has happened in SGM and KCC. I often wonder is that the advice they would give to their daughters or grandaughters? Where’s these leaders discernment. Where is true care for women in these situations?
I am glad to hear you are in a loving marriage now!!! I pray your realationship with your children will be restored as well!!
Anita,
Forgive me for not welcoming you back and thanking you for your post. Your story is heart-wrenching. What I so fear about many in SGM leadership is it seems they are given guidelines/rules to follow, but are seemingly never trained or trusted to yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Your situation seems to be proof of this.
I, too, am overjoyed to hear of your current marriage, and will join MOVING ON as well as the others here in prayer that your relationship with your children is restored.
In Him,
P.D.
MB – thank you so much for your honesty humility and transparency.
Couldn’t be more clear about the damage of lies than that.
Sobering. Oh I dread and fear at the idea of losing the fear of the Lord!
God bless you brother. Thank you for your effort and care in explaining so clearly.
A Christian is able to persevere to the end because he knows the truth. He is saved by Jesus Christ alone, therefore his appointment with heavencannot be taken from him. The truth is what helps him to persevere. Let the truth always be held so dear!
Thank you to everyone for your kind responses and your prayers. I will keep you updated if/when anything changes.
Anita
Hi Anita. Just wanted to hop on and say welcome.
Stunned
Hi Anita.
I don’t know if this will be of any comfort to you, but my horribly manipulative ex has done such a good job on my poor kids that it took my daughter about a year and a half to start talking to me again after he began his work, and my dear son still isn’t talking to me. I, too, gave up EVERYTHING for my children and husband, so I get it. But you’re a better mom than me. At times when I was struggling so badly to support myself, and when I didn’t have even one of my children talking to me, I admit, I had moments of wondering if I made a mistake. But now, with a different perspective, I wouldn’t trade one moment with my kids. Welcome here, Sister. And so glad to hear you’ve found a good marriage. Whoop-whoop!
Stunned
Stunned. You’re awesome.
This is a week overdue.
Silent Running — thank you. I suppose I know you?
Irv. PK. PD. Defended. Stunned. Defender Waters. Bruised. Canary and others, thank you for posting regularly. When I first discovered this blog last fall I was tempted to write it off as a bunch of gossiping, bitter, divisive loons, airing dirty laundry. Sorry!!! However, not only do I understand that people are in different places, but that there are good reasons for expressing their thoughts and feelings. I hate to see this blog discredited and am very glad to see how your hearts for Christ’s body come through.
Anita — I remember you and your ex-husband. I believe you probably remember Penny and I although we were in different circles. I am very sorry to hear of your journey. I can’t imagine the difficulty. Yet God continually makes new and I join you in singing, free at last, thank God Almighty I’m free at last.
The Poet — I want to say a special thanks to you. Besides sharing our fellowship together we share a strong confidence that God will fight for his glory and that we participate in this primarily on our knees. Thank you for your great faith; you are a gift to our church.
Precious brothers and sisters, being human, I can tell some will struggle with Eph 4:31 in getting rid of bitterness as they journey. Some anger at Kingsway is fueled by bitterness, not that some of this anger isn’t righteous. My anger is so bad my little one has picked it up, the habit.
By the way, for those far away, PeaceMakers Ministries help has been requested by Kingsway leadership. Some form of humility has to be present to even say this out loud. I pray “their” eyes are opened and the Holy Spirit convicts. I pray this for all of us.
Dude,
This is interesting news. We know some very good folks at Peacemaker Min., so I have hope. However, seeing things like Josh Harris as a keynote speaker at the next PM conference does give us pause…to wonder. The Knight and I will be praying for an outcome that brings out the truth, and glorifies God.
I do have a question (for any reader here). Does anyone know what exactly happens when PM are called in to arbitrate/mediate a dispute among church members and/or leaders? Does the PM representative meet with everyone involved individually first (gathering info) and then meet with parties jointly? If there are several parties, does it become a subway-train of meetings? I’m really curious; I’ve never walked through such a process with PM before. Please, anyone? Anyone? If you don’t feel like posting here, drop either of us an email: protestantdame or protestantknight at gmail-dot-com.
Thanks,
P.D.
Color me skeptical. Why wasn’t Peacemakers called in with MLC when there was such an uproar and obvious injustice on the way the leaders and adult leaders’ sons were treated?
Who is it who needs peacemaking? Aren’t the layleaders of KCC being forthright, humble and SCRIPTURAL in the way they are handling the concerns? Is the treatment of them by the paid staff equally honest and full of integrity and care? Isn’t the love and care shown to SW and the leadership completely clear and honorable? Is someone involved with this situation NOT being transparent? Or is it that SW has a literally valid case that could be litigated and a certain landlord organization (if you will) is afraid of being exposed?
I’m just wonderin’….
Ut oh. Red Alert.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=355
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....1#comments
I have had heard of at least one instance where Peacemakers were called in at CLC (SGM’s “flagship” church). This was over the church cancelling a janitorial service contract since the church member questioned the group’s move towards Calvinism. What I heard was that CLC chose to not follow Peacemaker’s recommendation on restoring the contract.
Thus even if Peacemakers shows up, SGM Leaders have the upper hand and can still choose not to follow the recommendations. Apparently CLC’s not following Peacemaker recommendations hasn’t affected their relationship with the Peacemaker Organization. Various SGM Leaders still speak at their conferences etc.
It will be interesting to see what impact Peacemakers has with this conflict with it someone saying they are coming in to resolve it. If Peacmakers makes certain recommendations will Kingsway leaders including Gene Emerson refuse to follow them? Time will tell.
Also, talking about Peacemakers, it was the pastor of an SGM Church who refused to use the Peacemaker process with Jim who founded this blog. The pastor refused involvement of a practice that SGM supposedly endorses.
Where are some of the other higher up leaders in SGM including other members of their “apostolic team” including Mahaney? Shouldn’t they be getting involved? What do they have to say about one of their regional leaders withholding the truth for 10 years and that he is still in place as a leader?
Isn’t one point obvious? A leader withheld the truth for 10 years. With that coming out, isn’t it obvious that Gene Emerson needs to step down at least for a season? Do they really need Peacemakers to state the obvious?
Does Gene Emerson on his own not see that he is disqualified from being a leader? I wonder what Emerson would do if it came out that a pastor in the region he leads did what he himself did? Wouldn’t Emerson require that pastor to step down?
Steve,
All good questions. As I understand it, the leadership at KW have initiated this, and I’m also curious to know what they (the leaders) see as the problem that needs resolution. Perhaps getting PM involved is a new mandate/suggestion from higher up in SGM, or an attempt to bring in an “unbiased” mediator into the equation. I’m waiting for any folks at KW to weigh in with their views on this. At least they appear to be “trying to act right” as the Knight would say.
P.D.
PD
There certainly can be an argument for bringing in an “unbiased” mediator especially with the close relationship Gene Emerson has with the other high ranking leaders within SGM. Hopefully Peacemakers, if they are brought in, will show themselves to be truly “unbiased.”
The inevitable is being prolonged here, once again to the detriment of the sheep and the church as a whole.
In my experience with church (since birth; 22 years of that being SGM) and based upon my unscientific observations over the years, here’s what I believe kills a church:
Being ripped apart by a situation where a leader refuses to leave, even when sin is pointed out to him or concerns derived from scripture are shown to him very plainly. He will go hither and yon, from Dan to Beersheba, seeking support from the denomination, a third party, mediator, etc. when the very simple step of one or more of the leaders leaving and giving the church back to (drum roll) the church (crash) would be far simpler. Less lives are trashed, less chest-pounding is involved, less hurtful situations are created, less sin, period.
This is a very hard thing that leaders and some sheep don’t want to hear, but it has to be said: God does not necessarily call church leaders to lifetime terms. Yes, those leaders need to give up their lives for their churches, but that in turn gives you no guarantee you are to be the undisputed, uninterrupted, untouched leader of church X until your body goes into the ground. And if some look at the harshness of that as why become a leader?, it then becomes questionable as to whether or not your goals of personal gain and longevity make you qualified to be called a leader to start with. God calls men for the right time, right place, on His terms and His timetable. End of story.
No guarantees of lifetime leadership longevity. That goes for leaders period, not necessarily just those in the church. God elevates and tears down. Sometimes He doesn’t do it with lightning bolts and plagues. Sometimes he does it with a vote of no confidence (or many derivations thereof) from flock members, or by exposing a decade(s)-long running sin.
The belief in God’s sovereignty does not mean you get to dictate how that sovereignty brings you down one day.
I appreciate what ministries like PeaceMakers do, believe me I do. But I am concerned with it turning into a long and protracted process that will tear down more than it could hope to restore. There are times when slipshod actions in leadership simply call for the decent thing to do: humbly step down, and go with God.
–pk
PK
Very well said. In other words an excellent comment.
Hopefully the leaders of Kingsway will heed what you are talking about. Sadly it wouldn’t surprise me if the Kingsway leaders are bringing in Peacemakers to try and justify themselves as you indicate sometimes leaders do. Hopefully both the leaders of Kingsway and Peacemakers will do the right thing and not whitewash what happened.
As you point out it is sad when people who found ministries based on God’s calling get to the point where they think it is their ministry vs. being God’s . When they do this many times there comes a point when a leader needs to step down for the good of the organization.
It will be sad if Kingsway’s Leaders through their actions or inactions tear Kingsway apart.
It still baffles me how this isn’t a black and white decision with Gene Emerson needing to step down at least for some time period that would include evaluation. How can a group justify keeping someone in the leadership position he is in after what he did. What a sad lack of integrity for Emerson, Kingsway and SGM.
Thanks again for quite an inciteful comment.
Steve240:
I think everyone, especially SGM leadership, needs to read the last paragraph in your September 4, 2010 at 11:51 am comment, then reread it, and read it again.
–pk
Ellie, you blog queen, thanks for the links. Jim’s comment at Survivor’s said it all:
“The point is moot. Sande (President of peacemakers) said that he couldn’t be objective in the matter.
Case closed.” Jim
I’m not sure if Sandes is speaking of Noel’s story or the whole SGM business. Would there be any difference in the case of Kingsway? Can anyone at Peacemakers deal with SGM objectively? I also like how Kris’ letter pointed out that all the info they need is on the blog for public record.
I just have to say what is once again in my heart: Lord Jesus, set your people free!
Although I have been out of Kingsway for years, I do know Gene Emerson. I have experienced his arrogance and control!!!!! He is a career minister, and he will not go away easily. I fully understand that he can totally be restored and all of that. But I do NOT think he can or should ever be in “church” leadership again. Once a man crosses that line, he can be totally restored, forgiven, and on his way to the promised land, BUT NOT lead others in the capacity that he does now. Christian yes, leader no. I am an old man now and have seen way too much crap done by leaders who make a career out of this thing we call “church.”
Dear KingsWay and Dear Peacemakers,
Please refer to the open letter Kris wrote to Ken Sande and Peacemakers
on the sgmsurvivors blog, dated January 12, 2009.
Please note Kris’ question, which is foundational to your pursuant of truth:
“HAVE THEY (sgm), AS AN ORGANIZATION, FOSTERED A CULTURE OF
SECRECY, WHERE DECISIONS ARE MADE FROM THE TOP DOWN AND THEN
IMPOSED UPON THE PEOPLE IN THE PEWS, OFTEN WITH LITTLE CLEAR
EXPLANATION TO THESE PEOPLE ABOUT THE CHANGES IMPOSED UPON
THEM? ”
KingsWay,
Do you consider yourselves in the midst of a conflict, and your main objective coming to peace in this situation?? Or is there much more at stake??
Has the Lord seen fit to uncover and address issues of LIES, DECEIT,STEALING AWAY, (of SW’s integrity of his Christian walk) by a PASTOR???????
Is He uncovering other issues that have resulted in wounding and/or destruction
by a PASTOR??????
Our hearts must not give into retribution or bitterness. AND, we are, at the same time, ALLOWED to be angry at sin (God gave us this ability — it propels us to fight against injustice, whilst maintaining forgiveness) . Be careful to distinguish between bitterness and alarm.
What is our part in sounding the alarm and not allowing anyone to NEUTRALIZE
the situation?? We love our Brethren, and love and are in awe of the Holiness of God. This is my/my familys motivation in crying out for Truth and Light –
The “Family of Churches”, known as Sovereign Grace, is guilty of documented
maulings and abuses— CJ knows about it all. Have they cried out in
sorrowful repentance of the authority structure they have created and maintained? No. There is duplicity. Good mixed with evil doings. Duplicity.
SGM,in the proceedings at KingsWay, may the Lord Almighty meet you as He did with Saul of Tarsus “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?.. I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” (Acts 9:4-5) sgm,sgm pastors and ‘overseers’ (formerly known
as ‘apostles’)….when you wound Christians, you are wounding Jesus the Christ.
Peacemakers, Please read “My Story of Hope” by “Esther” of the Chesapkeake story. (on SGMRefuge). Documented, written cries for help and the many required sgm avenues of seeking pastoral and apostolic help were discarded. Why? The continued sgm polity of authoritarian, controling structure. Please dig REAL
deep into the past cases of wounded people at KingsWay caused by undiscerning
pastors. Undiscerning pastors are a consequence of the polity mandates of sgm.
Help us, O Lord our God.
So Peacemakers is being brought in because SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene.
First of all, why all the flowery Kings James phraseology? Second, is this a sin that is to be brought before the church? Third ,was SW even asked if he “had ought” against Gene?
First answer. Just like the phrase used ten years ago against SW (“the sin of unbelief”) this phrase is being pulled out of context.
Mark 11:25 “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” (The KJV uses the term “having ought” where the official KingsWay translation, the ESV, says “have anything against anyone”.
The context here is a person is praying. He has something against someone, so he should go to that person and forgive him. Thank you. End of story. It is a thing between the person, God and the other person. And we witnessed that forgiveness on August 15 at the family meeting. Anything more would be judging SW’s heart and is wrong. Who is gossiping now?
The short answer to question one: using that phrase from the KJV sounds more holy and gives the accusation more spiritual weight than just saying that SW has something against Gene.
Is this a sin that should be brought before the church? The context doesn’t seem to say that, but even if it were something of that magnitude, biblical procedure was not followed. It was an accusation…maybe even just an opinion… by a few of the CG leaders that was blown out of proportion and used to get PM involved. The leaders did not go to SW and ask, “Hey, bro. Do you have ought against, Gene?” Because he would have answered, “No.” End of story again. The answer to question three is simply no.
So the leadership is deflecting the eyes off of them and their controlling, heavy handed techniques and using those very techniques to try to point out some supposed, drummed up sin of SW. Just like they did ten years ago.
KingsWay friends, don’t be fooled….again.
Welcome Looking Elsewhere and thanks for your comments. So you believe the calling in of PM is just a smokescreen/deflection tactic? Hmmm. Also I understand D Harvey is in town.
We’ll all continue to pray as the KW story unfolds here….
P.D.
“So Peacemakers is being brought in because SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene.”
.
After what GE and KW leadership did, they have the audacity for something like this?? Incredible.
Spin Control.
That’s what it is.
SGM is acting less and less like the Church, and more like a corporation or Political machine these days.
It’s time for God to do a top-down gutting of this political machine.
Doe anyone know if the Kingsway building is payed for? Though I am one that believes it is good to not have debt one thing that having debt does in the case of a church is it makes the leaders more dependent on having members. Put one way, a mass exodus wouldn’t be nearly so hard on Kingsway if their church building is already paid for.
If the building isn’t paid for, the church leaders have more of a need for keeping regular members. If the building is paid for, losing a number of members wouldn’t nearly be as hard on Kingsway.
It’s no secret that I have had much to say about the fast moving events at KingsWay. I would like to add to those statements but this time I want to avoid any attempts at persuasion. I wanted to do that as a matter of sensitivity to those that disagree with me about the path that has been taken by the leadership at KW and SGM. What I want to do instead is present some evidence. I want to tell you about some recent events and allow you to form your own conclusions.
I’ve debated whether I would post these events at all and finally decided to do so after spending many sleepless hours over the past week out of bed, praying for all of us within SGM and especially those remaining at KingsWay. I don’t recall ever having been awakened with such a burden; I simply am struggling to sleep during this time. My heart breaks for the people of KingsWay and more widely for those that are likely experiencing the same elsewhere.
Some will say that the actions of 3:00 AM prayers do not warrant my posting this but I disagree. This is only done so that you will be well informed as you move forward. I ache for the unity of KingsWay but not if that unity includes sacrificing all truth. This posting will not, as I mentioned above, be about my views. I will try to limit those and hopefully exclude them completely. I will present this information in more of an outline format so that I might hold more closely to my goal. The presentation of this is by design straight forward and lacking any glamour but I only want to relay what I consider to be events which will give you greater insight into just what it is you may or may not be unifying yourself under.
On Wednesday, September 1, 2010, a friend and I met with Gene, Aaron, and Keith. The purpose(s) of our meeting was simple:
1. My confession and request for forgiveness
a. I presented myself to Gene, admitting my fault of not having presented my concerns and accusations to him directly and instead informing any who would visit this site about what I believe are actions on his part which disqualified him from leadership.
b. I acknowledged that it did not change my views.
c. Gene did give forgiveness but it was not until sometime later in the meeting after Aaron purposefully brought our conversation back to the fact that my request for forgiveness had not been responded to by Gene.
d. Following Gene’s granting of forgiveness, he quickly transitioned into a warning that this did not give me the right to “slander” him by further “airing negative statements” about him to others. This prompted a discussion that intermittently led to a final definition of “slander” along with the warning that I would be accused of that sin if I did what I am doing now.
i. Gene’s definition of “slander” – “any statement, factual or not, made about another without that individual being present to defend themselves”
ii. My definition of “slander” – “any false statement made about another that would serve to demean their character or otherwise tear them down.”
iii. We did not search out a dictionary definition.
2. To address what appears to be a habitual practice of secrecy by the elders
a. The elders, collectively, promoted what they consider to be a practice of transparency.
i. They refer to their willingness to meet with any individual(s) who have concerns.
ii. They state that they have told the entire story of SW to the church.
iii. They insist that they revealed all of the charges that have been laid against them during the family meeting.
iv. Keith and Gene state that they have been completely open about what occurred at Chesapeake.
1. This arose out of concerns that KW has never been told about Keith’s involvement with a “controversial situation” which happened at Chesapeake while he was on staff, even though KW is slated to send Keith out as church planter.
b. We asked them how the apparent attempts to control the last family meeting fit into a practice of transparency.
i. There was no direct attempt on their part to explain what strongly appeared to be an attempt to control the flow of the meeting.
ii. They admit that multiple meetings between the elders and some with the elders and SW, BD, BM took place prior to the family meeting to work out how the meeting would operate and even the words that would be used as statements were given and questions were answered.
3. We questioned the lack of adherence to Matthew 18, church discipline
a. A list of charges has been presented to the elders, not by me, although I support them. The charges were presented by BD, BM, and SW.
i. Again, the elders believe that they have informed the church of the charges specifically and have asked for forgiveness for each of them. (Ask yourself if you have heard any specific charges beyond the matter of SW and if any elder has ever told you that this is a matter of church discipline)
b. It is the elders view, as clearly explained by Gene and Keith, that this is a matter of 1 Timothy 5: 19-20 and because of that is NOT A MATTER FOR THE CHURCH BODY TO HEAR OR RULE ON.
i. Keith actually stated that since Paul directed the letter to Timothy, who was an elder, that the instruction given therein was only for the elders. THE CHURCH AS A BODY HAS NO AUTHORITY TO DISCIPLINE GENE OR ANY OTHER ELDER. It is a matter for the elders to deal with.
4. We again addressed the question of whether Gene would consider removing himself from the position of elder.
a. Gene has asked the elders about that according to Aaron.
b. The elders believe that because of good fruit in many areas of Gene’s ministry that would not serve KW to have him step down.
c. They would consider a sabbatical
d. The elders were asked specifically if they would consider having this matter directly brought to the church for their public consideration. THEY STATED THAT THIS IS A MATTER THAT WILL NOT BE BROUGHT TO THE CHURCH FOR OUR CONSIDERATION. WE DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE SUCH MATTERS.
Our meeting ended abruptly following the heated discussion about how the whole matter appears to be inconsistent with Scripture. I left first, then my friend. I found out later that when my friend left he was met by BD, BM, and SW who were waiting on the front steps to have an impromptu meeting with the elders themselves. Unfortunately, their meeting ended the way ours did, with the elders again affirming that the church has no authority in this matter and the elders will monitor themselves.
I’ll leave you with this…
Read 1 Peter 5 and decide if that looks like what you are seeing here at KingsWay.
If it is OK, go and support your elders fervently.
If it is not, read 1 Timothy 5: 19-20. Is it written to elders only? Are elders who practice sin to be “rebuked in the presence of all?” Presence of whom? Who’s rebuking?
Read Matthew 18:15-20 This applies to all Christians, not elders alone. Have you heard the charges against Gene and the other elders? Have you been told that we were looking at discipline here or were you under the view that this was primarily about SW?
Yes, there is a significant mortgage. The church leaders did form a corporation not too long ago. The church members are not members of the corporation. The pastors are. I suppose this was done so that if the bottom drops out, no person or group of people will be left holding the bag, but it also leave the members with no legal power either. In other words, if the entire congregation decided that they wanted to oust the existing leaders, break away from SGM and select elders, Gene and the other pastors could just say “Great, but you are not meeting here” and lock the building and put up “No Trespassing” signs. And legally, they would be right to do so. We gave our money freely. They used it to build a building that we have no legal ownership in. Maybe that is the way all churches do it. I am not sure. The upside is that if the bank calls the loan and they have to try to sell the assets, we (as in we, the congregation) are not on the hook for the debt.
Of COURSE GENE AND SGM LEADERSHIP WOULD TURN THE TABLES AGAINST
SW AND THOSE WHO WOULD STAND FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS !!
Brethren, this is how sgm operates. We have seen it happen:
In Chesapeake— Esther was accused of being unsubmissive to leadership (for not allowing abusive husband to return to her home) and threatened with church
discipline if she didnot comply with pastoral directives. All her motives in appealing for help from pastors and apostles, Shank,Emerson, and Harvey were discarded. Continued bullying by pastors until the 3 Couples became her advocates. Then Emerson comes to town and calls a meeting of caregroup leaders and paints the picture of the 3 Couples as in sin. KB then relocates to KingsWay to receive care from Emerson. New sr pastor assigned to Chesapeake—but new sr pastor stated all this sudden transition had NOTHING to do with the past years upheavals (Chesapeake story) DOO- DAH — DOO- DAH— SPIN —SPIN–SPIN
Soooo… apparently sgm continues on—blaming, spinning, send in jovial DH to neutralize everyone….(re everyone is a sinner worm). DEFLECT what is really being brought to light:
A PASTOR— REGIONAL OVERSEER
A PASTOR—REGIONAL OVERSEER
A PASTOR—-REGIONAL OVERSEER
—Who lied, deceived, stole away from—-one of his own flock. And now the
sinned against one is being charged with “having ought”.
sgm, Harvey, CJM, GE,……….when YOU persecute the Brethren, you are persecuting Jesus the Christ, the Cornerstone of the Living Stones, the church.
Do you possess the fear of God?? Has arrogance so overtaken you that you donot SEE your own sinful ridiculous spinning??
KingsWay Brethren— Lean in … cry out to God…receive His courage and
strength to see what you must see and stand for Truth…keep fighting the good fight of the faith…….
NEWS FLASH!
The latest is that there will be no more family meetings at KingsWay regarding these topics because the leaders have determined they are not productive.
Oh brother, is this really happening? Are people so willing to give away their freedom to think and go the way of truth? Will Kingsway members allow this whole issue to be buried because the elders have determined that any more family meetings are “not productive”? I guess if we saints want a “king” to lead us, this is the results. “We’ve talked enough about this. We’re moving on.” Not the first time this has happened in an SGM/PDI church and it won’t be the last.
FACT: we live in the United States of America, land of the free and home of the brave. We DON’T live in the Holy Roman Empire. People, don’t give away your common sense and freedom to think for yourselves just because an organization uses bible verses to take authority over you! They are over-stepping the bounds of scripture and replacing the Holy Spirit with their own dictates in order to keep everyone under control. IT IS NOT RIGHT. If the elders believe that they are above the congregation, that their powerful positions allow only other elders to scrutinize their behavior, then those who remain “under” these men have given away their freedom in Christ. It is that simple.
From what Mike wrote, Gene Emerson is the same old same, old that I knew. He is still on the throne, and will spotlight anyone who brings accusations against him. And Keith is from the same cloth.
Mike, our family left before you showed up on the Kingsway property. When we first landed on the Kingsway scene, we thought we were in the greatest “church” in the world, BUT GOD slowly opened our eyes. We left because of Gene and his heavy-handedness with a dear brother. Some of our friends thought we were crazy. Ironically, most of them finally left as well and report discovering great personal spiritual freedom at other churches where the leadership are actually accountable to the people, not merely to themselves!!! What a recipe for disaster–WAKE UP!!!
Brothers (& sisters) of Kings Way.
If you have invested your lives, your fortunes and your sacred honor to the building of this local church, you have to ask yourselves this question; Do I want to just walk away, or do I fight to take back what dishonest MEN have taken from us?
What would God have you do?
I do not ask this to imply what God want’s you to do.
If God want’s you top walk away, then by all means, walk.
If God wants you to stand up and take back the church from strong men who have “taken the church”, then know for what, and how you are to fight.
Then fight the good fight!
We stand with you.
God bless you all.
Mike:
Not to be snarky about Emerson’s comments in your transcript but he would be wise to consult a dictionary before providing definitions of words. Here is definition of the term “slander”
“Slander is the oral communication of false statements that are harmful to a person’s reputation. If the statements are proven to be true, it is a complete defense to a charge of slander. Oral opinions that don’t contain statements of fact don’t constitute slander. Slander is an act of communication that causes someone to be shamed, ridiculed, held in contempt, lowered in the estimation of the community, or to lose employment status or earnings or otherwise suffer a damaged reputation. Slander is a subcategory of defamation”
Emerson’s attempt to include true and false statements in his definition of the term slander are completely misguided. In order to be slanderous, a statement must be false and it must be uttered with the intent to damage the object to the statement.
Thank you Mike for your wonderful, factual post. After reading this statement” Gene’s definition of “slander” – “any statement, factual or not, made about another without that individual being present to defend themselves”, I had to stop reading and write.
According to Gene’s definition, he himself is guilty of slandering the “3″ couples in Chesapeake in Dec. ’08. He participated in a private meeting where approx. 60 “handpicked” people were invited to discuss the “3 couples”. The “3 couples” were not invited to this meeting even though they were the topic of discussion. And did I say that the “3″ couples WERE NOT INVITED? Even though Gene had never told any of the “3 couples” that he thought they were in sin, he called for those present at the meeting to join him along with the other pastors as allies against the “3 couples”. He also led a prayer, asking God to lead the “3 couples” to repentance even though as mentioned previously, Gene nor any of the other pastors had indicated to the “3 couples” that they were in sin. Gene as well as the other pastors absolutely did not follow Matt. 18 or any other Biblical principles when they called this meeting as well as during the meeting.
I would also like to add: at an earlier meeting which the “3 couples” requested, when asked what Gene thought had happened in Chesapeake he responded, When I was a young pastor I sinned against my people and hurt them. These pastors just need to learn a different way. Nothing about repentance, just “need to learn a different way”.
Gene is a fraud. He is a pretender. He pretends to be a man of God. Just take a look at his track record. It speaks for itself! Any pastor who would submit to the authority of Gene falls in the same category. Birds of a feather flock together. That is why I am so disappointed with EH!
Back to reading the rest of Mike’s post. Thank you Mike for your courage and your heart for God’s truth which shines light in the darkness and uncovers evil and wrongdoing.
MD,
Whether you realize it or not, your posting shows the heart of a Brother
who is standing in the gap, carrying the burden with the Lord, and crying out to Him— This, my Brother, is a picture of Jesus the Christ.
Thankyou for stating the facts of the meetings. Truth, as it happens, is crucially important.
For now, I just want to clarify something for any readers and/or people of sgm:
Always, since PDI and then into SGM , Pastors have been addressed and taken the position as “Pastors”. See the SGM website for all their churches and each Pastor is indeed, named as the Pastor for each individual church.
Peoples within sgm and those who have left have for over two years, brought
attention to the fact that sgm has NO,nada,NO elders in their church structure.
Then,—-voila! suddenly, several months ago, we notice that pastors are addressing each other as ELDERS. —Therefore, dear readers, when you hear Gene and Keith and anyone else in leadership speaking of ELDERS — they are actually speaking of their PASTORS —because sgm is making it verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry
clear that the Brethren have no voice, no significant insight. Basically questioning whether or not the Brethren are “co-heirs” with Jesus Christ or not.
Sooooo… when reading the dialogue from Gene and Keith and they are speaking of ELDERS— remember — THERE ARE NO ELDERS REPRESENTING THE CONGREGANTS. THE PASTORS ARE NOW CALLING THEMSELVES ELDERS. —-Afterall—its all about control, right sgm?
Hope that helps readers to be clear that there are NO lay-people Elders within SGM–only Pastors who now want to be called Elders.
Is the spin clearly in the light now???
To the people at KW: Everyone of you absolutely have the right to know exactly what happened with Keith in Chesapeake. Sadly this young man brought the Chesapeake church to the edge of destruction. Only after knowing all of the facts can you determine if this man is qualified to plant and pastor another church!
Fred,
I find it ever so interesting that………. after Keith “relocated” to Midlothian to receive “care from Gene Emerson” … he is now positioned to plant and pastor a church?? (I wonder if Gene or Dave or Steve or Keith ever engaged in “caring” for Esther and her family—and the other abused women they bullied and threatened and demanded remain in dangerous situations? Nope– nada)
Ok, I have searched the site for hours and cannot find Esther’s Story (I did read Noel’s story) and still don’t know what happened in Chesapeake, although it is referred to a lot. Can you put out the links to these places for me to read?? I’m beginning to get the gist though… lots of control issues.
Beloved:
Apologies that many messgaes got held up in cue waiting for approval.
We (PK & PD) do go to church and fellowship at lunch, so given time zone differences, this can make for a deep lag time on Sundays re: freeing up messages. Please extend us grace that in area, particularly on the sabbath.
Good to see all this dialogue.
–pk
Well, cb, I can’t find it either. It should be in the December 2008 archives and I can’t find it. I went to Google and found “Posted on Ester’s Story” on pages from sgmrefuge.com, but can not find in in the cache. Anyone else know where it went to?
cb,
“My Story of Hope”, “Esthers” narrative of what is known as the Chesapeake Story
is posted on the Refuge. Maybe PK or someone here could send you the direct
link (I am inept in that department!) It is a significant “paper trail” of events– and apparently, not much has changed in sgm, sgm leadership, or KB and GE.
I’ll look for the exact links, but they should be under the ”Testimonies” or “Churches” category tabs near the top of the page. Additionally, after you press those tabs, you have to scroll through pages (at the bottom is green text that says ”<< Older Comments” that you can press to keep paging through to older posts).
The site is getting big, folks, and it just takes more work to get to the links. Sorry.
–pk
Here’s two links re: Esther…
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/2.....j-mahaney/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/1.....hesapeake/
I found both of these by clicking on the “testimonies” tab at the top of the page, then paging through the posts by clicking on the “<< Older Comments” green text just above the “Leave a Reply” text.
–pk
Noel’s story>
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276
PK-
Don’t worry about the delay. You are working overtime to keep up and doing a fine job. I think that we can all see the enormous task that you have before you. Thank you for all of your work.
Thankyou, PK, for supplying that link– and your diligence on our behalf!
And I hope you and Mrs were blessed and encouraged in church today.
– Our Pastor spoke of Peter getting out of the boat during the storm–
why?? — to get to Jesus. (Matt 14:25-31). To get to Jesus, Saints!
I don’t know where to start. I will second the bit of info that Gene did say no more family meetings. It is my understanding that KW has a loan on at least the recent addition perhaps the remainder of the building as well.
Now on to difficult things:
It appears some of you are bitter. This is not good. Please for your own sake, Eph 4:29 & 31, build others up, warn them to check into KW’s polity etc., get rid of bitterness. I understand not your individual hurt but bitterness I know.
At the first Family Meeting at KW the pastors/elders did say they would have another family meeting. It disheartens me that they will not. As I read 1 Tim, I see Paul explaining the running of a church in a sense. By the time Paul gets to 1 Tim 5:19 he is speaking to Elder Tim on what to do about other elders sinning. Publicly rebuking appears to be an action carried out by elders. Honestly, I have not seen the Elders team at KW publicly rebuke the senior pastor. How would/could they? So, in a possible response, Gene calls in PeaceMakers. Maybe, but none of this intention has been stated publicly.
Matt 18:15-17 appears to be sinning between brothers. If it was between a brother and an elder then how on earth would the church follow through, v 17, with treating the elder as a tax collector? The only way, with the current KW polity in place, for the church to treat the elder as a tax collector is to walk. This is basically what Dave said today in the sermon/message. If you have lost your confidence or trust in the elders ability to lead then find another church. Other things Dave said I take issue with.
As I read it, with 1 Tim 5:19 the elder team publicly rebukes the sinning elder. With Matt 18:17, the church treats the sinning brother as a brother no longer/ a tax collector, then the church walks if this sinning brother is an elder with no proper response from the elder team.
If you see it this way and then take note of 1 Tim 5:18 where the elder doesn’t work for free, what grabs my attention is “…the worker deserves his wages.” If I hire a guy to fix the house and he does a poor job, he doesn’t get hired again. His wages are cut. This perhaps might be the checks and balances of church authority. I could be very wrong. If Gene’s leadership is so poor, if your trust is gone then walk. BUT and here is where I think the unity could play in, don’t walk away alone. Stand with your brothers as this thing gets worked out. Many are upset, you are not alone. If at the end, trust isn’t there, (now this counts even if you forgive Gene and the elders, but say they do a poor job of sheparding AND DONT deserve their wages) then leave in unity, leave en mass. There are many who have the same mind set of something is wrong… Unity gives Him glory! Please continue praying hard and rightly dividing the Word.
Thanks for the links, PK! I usually can find things if I google enough, but I was coming up blank for finding Ester’s Story.
“But are there any reports about immorality with SGM’s leadership? Child abuse? Drugs?”
.
.
How about manipulation, lying, endangering women & children by requiring them to submit to domestic abuse, protecting child abusers…for a start.
Gosh, there is so much caring and heartfelt concern for KW among the posters here!
MDrewry, thank you so much for your integrity, humility and obviously deep caring for the people of KW.
Gosh there is so much caring and heartfelt concern for Kingsway among our brethren here!
I see an obvious difference between the way the pastor in Metro Life was treated, and asked to step down for a period of evaluation, ostensibly for his son’s sinful choices, and the VOID of evaluation that ANYONE (including d. Harvey) seems to be offering as a means of grace to GENE EMERSON!! Sounds like this inconsistencey, the clear and obvious lack of transparency in his harboring something for 10 yrs against SW, and his own ignorance of what real sin is (slander) would clearly inform leadership that this man NEEDS HELP!
So why won’t anyone “love him enough” to help him understand how he needs to be trained in leadership, grace and servant leadership when it comes to seeing one’s own sin?
One other question….this is my only avenue to ask …
MDrewry, if your heart is clear, and sincerely desiring to serve and minister to Kingsway, have you and your friend, along with SW, BD & BM considered meeting together, and inviting any cgl, or anyone else to know how your respective meetings went?
IF the elders are sincere about wanting/inviting transparency they could join you all at such a meeting!
Don’t call it a Family Meeting, if you don’t want to. But have it at a neutral place or in someone’s home, or wherever. Honestly wouldn’t this be a good thing? TRULY serving your brothers and sisters with information. All of you are grown up, adults. It’s not about controlling anyone. Just information.
maybe then you could pray together? Stifle comments if you want to, and just PRAY!
Excellent points on your post at 1:12, Fred.
By his own definition, Gene did in fact slander the “3 Couples”.
And, I might add, these 3 Couples were long-standing members of 23 , 15,
and 10 years. Respected, home-group leaders, childrens ministry overseers.
Their “sin” of slander??? Opposing pastors (KB and BC) in their mal-treatment and (UNBiblical counsel) upon women. And, submitting that KB and BC needed to step down from their pastoral position.
Hmmmmmmmmmm… will Gene adhere to his own definition of slander and seek forgiveness???? I wonder………Then again, he is the deflecting oficianado….
Reminds me of…..”It depends on what the definition of ’is’, is “……………
Why does no one bring up the issue with JB, a Kingsway pastor that was forced out a year ago???
The church was informed he decided to leave.
Not entirely true.
Why is lying alright, as long as no one does drugs? (cb)
Looking Elsewhere said:
“NEWS FLASH!
The latest is that there will be no more family meetings at KingsWay regarding these topics because the leaders have determined they are not productive.”
I think what the pastors (not calling themselves “elders”) mean is that with all the questions various members bring up causes other members to start thinking along those lines. Put another way, when they have a family meeting, the “elders” don’t have control over what is said vs. the censored stories they would like to have go out about Gene Emerson’s sin.
I am sure the “elders” don’t want other members hearing people ask why Gene Emerson is allowed to remain a leader when he suppressed the truth for almost 9 years (in other words lied).
It certainly is another slick move on the part of SGM. It works quite similar to how Sovereign Grace Ministries for years has used how they define what is “gossip” or “slander” to suppress the truth and for these leaders actions to not be scrutinized. Say questioning leaders actions or sharing questionable actions leaders have done is either “gossip” or “slander” and you have a situation you can control to your own benefit.
As I said before, it still baffles me how this isn’t a black and white decision with Gene Emerson needing to step down at least for some time period that would include evaluation. How can a group justify keeping someone in the leadership position he is in after what he did. What a sad lack of integrity for Emerson, Kingsway and Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Dude said: It appears some of you are bitter. This isn’t the first time we’ve had that stone thrown at us and I guess it won’t be the last. It’s just getting to be such an old and tiresome excuse to shift the spotlight away from some of the abusive leadership of SGM. It is shameful to say such a thing to people who care about the saints they left behind, people they love and continue to pray for. Shameful thing to say…
Dude –
Thanks for the post and thanks for addressing the matter of elders and discipline. I’m not in disagreement that Paul is primarily writing to Timothy but the full statement was that based on that “the church has no authority” when it is related to Gene and the other elders behavior.
I do see a fault in the interpretation of 1 Tim. 5:19-20. The elders are responsible but take a closer look at the way text… Who are the witnesses? Are they not the church and if so don’t the elders have a clear responsibility(living by example) to not only address the sinful elder but to publicly rebuke the elder, who in this case continues to practice his sinful ways? (one example among many being the handling of this very matter — presiding over his own “church discipline”)
Take a look at John Calvin’s view:
20 Those that sin rebuke before all 104104 “Repren publiquement.” “Rebuke publicly.”
Whenever any measure is taken for the protection of good men, it is immediately seized by bad men to prevent them from being condemned. Accordingly, what Paul had said about repelling unjust accusations he modifies by this statement, so that none may, on this presence, escape the punishment due to sin. And, indeed, we see how great and diversified are the privileges by which Popery surrounds its clergy; so that, although their life be ever so wicked, ( “Combien que la vie de leurs moines et prestres soit la plus meschante et desbordee qu’on scauroit dire.” — “Although the life of their monks and priests be the most wicked and dissolute that can be described.”)
still they are exempted from all reproof. Certainly, if regard be had to the cautions which are collected by Gratian, (“Gratian, a Benedictine of the 12th century, was a native of Chiusi, and was the author of a famous work, entitled “Decretal,” or “Concordantia Discordantium Canonum,”) in which he endeavored to reconcile those canons that seem to contradict each other. He was, however, guilty of some errors, which Anthony Augustine endeavored to correct in his work entitled “De emendatione Gratiani“ Gratian’s “Decretal“ forms one of the principal parts of the canon law.” — Gorton’s Biog. Dict.
(Caus. 2, Quest. 4 and Quest. 7,) there will be no danger of their being ever compelled to give an account of their life. Where will they find the seventy-two witnesses for condemning a bishop, which are demanded by the disgusting bull issued by Pope Sylvester? Moreover, seeing that the whole order of laymen is debarred from accusing, and as the inferior orders, even of the clergy, are forbidden to give any annoyance to the higher classes of them, what shall hinder them from fearlessly mocking at all decisions?
It is therefore proper, carefully to observe this moderation, that insolent tongues shall be restrained from defaming elders by false accusations, and yet that every one of them who conducts himself badly shall be severely corrected; for I understand this injunction to relate to elders, that they who live a dissolute life shall be openly reproved.
That others also may fear Wherefore? That others, warned by such an example, may fear the more, when they perceive that not even those who are placed above them in rank and honor are spared; for as elders ought to lead the way to others by the example of a holy life, so, if they commit crime, it is proper to exercise severity of discipline toward them, that it may serve as an example to others. And why should greater forbearance be used toward those whose offenses are much more hurtful than those of others? Let it be understood that Paul speaks of crimes or glaring transgressions, which are attended by public scandal; for, if any of the elders shall have committed a fault, not of a public nature, it is certain that he ought to be privately admonished and not openly reproved.
The last part of Calvin’s statement is interesting to me. He speaks of the public nature of the sin being what brings such severe punishment. He refers to it as scandal. Take a look around, the Popery that makes the rules here… who can speak to whom, whether the church can hear the complete story, will the church even have the opportunity to affirm the decision of the elders… they are the ones who are sanctioning themselves. They see “that the whole order of laymen is debarred from accusing, and as the inferior orders, even of the clergy, are forbidden to give any annoyance to the higher classes of them, what shall hinder them from fearlessly mocking at all decisions?” Well said Calvin, well said!
I wasn’t there for Dave’s message but it sounds like the ultimate in being forbidden to give any annoyance to the higher classes of them to say that we who disagree should simply leave en mass. If that sounds bitter you’re hearing it wrong… think snarkey.
PK – Thanks for the links. Really horrible.
Mike,
Thank you for your comment at September 5, 2010 at 9:26 am . Excellent as usual.
I ache for the unity of KingsWay but not if that unity includes sacrificing all truth.
Mike your heart for your church–no, God’s church–is beautiful.
Gene’s definition of “slander” – “any statement, factual or not, made about another without that individual being present to defend themselves”
This really astounds me. Factual or not? So if I were to tell all of you readers out there, “the Knight’s eyes are blue,” this would be slander if he’s not here to defend himself? Or would it have to be something rather disparaging, like “the Knight’s hair is starting to go…” ? And yes, then there’s that matter of the meeting held in Chesapeake about the 3 couples where the 3 couples weren’t invited to defend themselves…I think Gene just makes up the rules as he goes.
Unfortunately, their meeting ended the way ours did, with the elders again affirming that the church has no authority in this matter and the elders will monitor themselves.
Monitoring themselves. Yeah, since that’s been working out so well up to now.
People of Kingsway, time to stand up with these men (Mike, MB, BD and others you know)–a unified front for the truth. Rise up, o men of God!
P.D.
With all the purchases that SGM brings to Peacemakers it wouldn’t surprise me if Peacemaker couldn’t be objective in the involvement at Kingsway. Peacemakers has various leaders from SGM speak at the conferences etc. Additionally SGM gets their members to purchase a number of books from Peacemakers. With this being the case it would certainly cloud Peacemakers judgment.
Maybe Gene Emerson needs to read the following passage about having a clear conscience. It is right after the passage SGM Leaders like to always talk about on submitting to them.
Heb 13:18-19
18 Pray for us. We are sure that we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way.
NIV
I just wonder how Gene Emerson can have a “clear conscience” with all he has done and choosing to remain as a leader. I would ask a similar question of other SGM Leaders for allowing him to remain as one of their top leaders.
It has been brought up before, but I wonder why other SGM Leaders don’t take appropriate action. Are there other “skeletons in the closet” that Gene Emerson knows about that the other leaders don’t want out that is possibly being used by Gene Emerson to allow him to remain. With the requirement for Gene Emerson to step down seeming to be so black and white one would think there must be something like this going on.
BTW, I just checked SGM’s website. Emerson isn’t in the highest ranking group of SGM. This is what SGM’s site indicates:
Sovereign Grace is led by a team of men committed to planting and supporting churches, and caring for and training pastors. The team is led by C.J. Mahaney, and also includes Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, Joshua Harris, and Pat Ennis.
Thus it doesn’t appear that Gene Emerson is at the highest level of leadership within SGM.
Even if Gene Emerson did step down, the fact that he didn’t step down immediately or was required to step down really reflects poorly on Sovereign Grace Ministries. Of course better later then never but the group not doing the right thing immediately sure shows that something is wrong with SGM’s Leadership.
If Peacemakers is being brought in because SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene I wonder if the Kingsway Leaders will try and turn the tables on SW again? Will they invoke church discipline on SW for “having ought” or unforgiveness toward Gene Emerson? I can’t imagine why it would be hard for SW to get over what happened to him. ;-)
SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene. It baffles me that the leaders of Kingway is “playing” that set of cards.
Imagine a wife who recently found out that her husband had an affair or maybe even multiple affairs over the last 10 years of their marriage. Then the husband confesses his sin and say he is repenting. Despite the husband indicating he has repented and asks for forgiveness the wife has a hard time forgiving her husband.
In the case of the wife, would one not understand why it would be hard for the wife to forgive and move on etc? Would they think it would be right to spend so much time on the wife including focusing on her lack of forgiveness whlle not focusing on how egregious the sins of her husband was? Wouldn’t it be ludicrous to take this approach. Maybe the husband hasn’t really hasn’t understood how badly he hurt his wife?
It sure sounds like something similar with Kingsway and Gene Emerson and SW allegedly “having ought” against Gene. Maybe Gene hasn’t done all he can to seek reconciliation and and even compensation in a number of ways for what he did to SW. Is it acceptable for Gene Emerson to say sorry I withheld the truth for 10 years and messed up your life for that period and say please forgive me now lets move on?
“Pastors have no authority and no power except what we allow them to have.”
.
Exactly.
Mike D,
It appears my comments were not clear. I see your comments as a reporter’s, telling others what you have seen. I have spent hours reading these posts and in the sum total there appears to be a thread of bitterness. None of this directed at anyone and not as casting a stone. (The tone of the discussion.) I thought I made it clear. I have bitterness as well. I dare say few of you could habor the vast amounts of anger that I can. You think I say this lightly? I can scare people with this amount of anger. It is sad, simply not healthy for me.
For others:
This verse speaks to me. If it doesn’t speak to you then don’t read it.
Eph 4:31 “Get rid of all bitterness, range and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.”
With my reading of 1 Tim, I wanted to share my thoughts/opinions as to how the church body does have authority. They bring the charges to the elders about another elder. The elders are supposed to rebuke publicly. All of this is in my earlier post. For Matt 18:17, the church body is to treat the sinning brother as a tax collector. And with elders when the trust is gone, the church can walk. I would perfer we walk in unity away from the poor leadership if that is the conclusion. The church body DOES have some authority, some part to play listed in the very verses leaders quote to prove that we have no authority. Watch what happens when half the church ups and walks out.
Canary,
Your anger runs deep. I am truly sorry you think I was casting a stone. No stones.
I can see bitterness because I have it in my own heart. I have battle scars as well.
You really didn’t mean to say Shameful did you? I do not mean to distract anyone from their focus or away from abusive leaders.
Shameful to quote scripture? “Get rid of all bitterness…”
…what a mess all this SGM business is…
At the Sunday night Family meeting, the very last question was asked by a woman in the back. If my memory is correct she brought up the fact that KCC has always maintained that they could not/would not discuss an issue with one person if it involved another person who was not there to defend himself. (SGM definition of slander.) The most frequent example of this is when a wife goes to leadership regarding problems with her husband. In the past this wife has been dismissed. The lady in the back asked if this practice would continue. Aaron answered and said something to the effect of this having been recently discussed and that the practice would probably not continue as it has in the past. He seemed to have a good grasp of the meaning of the question as well as a heartfelt answer. After hearing that I was hopeful. However, after what I heard at church this morning, and Gene’s definition of slander as posted here, I have to admit that my hope is fading. It is because of situations like this that we are all concerned about the definition of the word slander. It is not just a semantic issue; it gets down to practical application. If a woman goes to the pastor with a serious problem with her husband, or other person, will she be automatically dismissed and reprimanded as a carrier of gossip/slander without hearing her case?
Steve240 — Great post – very clear and accurate illustration. Let us pray and believe that the SGM leadership will see your post — (which I do believe they will read your comments). Irv
Dude,
I have had the privilege to get to know Canary and her family, and I will tell you that I have found few who have a more tender heart towards the wounded than does she.
Anger?
Nope! Nada! None!
A caring tender heart?
Yup! And a big one too!
Also, I’ll join with Canary to say that what you posted here, “It appears some of you are bitter.” is in fact Shameful.
If you have a conscience, you should be embarrassed by your comment.
You may be confusing bitterness with righteous anger.
Beware the anger of a patient man.
We have been very patient with SGM, but our anger, at the continual wounding of the Bride (Our Brothers & Sisters) is mounting.
Thankyou, Defender
We have heard your heart of care and compassion many times, Canary-
We mama bears are pretty protective of not only our ‘cubs’ but our Brothers and Sisters in the Lord — I am thankful to walk with you and all you Refugee-ers!
———Waters
I was just reading Esther’s story and a couple of things stood out to me in light of what is going on right now at KCC. She touches on the issue of slander, and I think her scripture reference and comments are relevant to the issue of slander that is before us right now. If this is Ok I would like to copy below a small portion of that post:
>It is a serious matter for the individual Saints (members of the church) to not have their voices taken seriously. If you look in 1 Corinthians 1:11, the Apostle Paul had apparently received a report from members of the Church at Corinth. Apparently it even came from a woman (Chloe’s people), not the pastor of the church. Paul took these matters serious enough to entertain the details and then to follow up with a letter to the church (not just the pastor). Here is an excerpt from scripture: “For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.” 1 Corinthians 1:11. Paul took it very serious. We weren’t just quarreling here, my pastors were changing doctrine and applying pressure and the threat of church discipline to myself and other women in the church. I couldn’t get any of your attention on the Apostolic Team……….
>The Apostle Paul did not consider the communication by Chloe’s people as gossip nor slander. In fact, he took it very serious and apparently investigated and finally responded to the whole church directly in the form of a letter. This would be the equivalent of a letter, or an email today, or maybe a visit. The Apostle Paul had no problem keeping all things in the light before the entire church. There were no hidden meetings and private handling of matters that involved the Body of Christ. The accounts of church problems are published in scripture even to this day so that each of us is aware of the details. He obviously trusted the maturity of the Saints to handle the truth.
I would be interested in hearing how others interpreted Dave Harvey’s message yesterday.
CORRECTION CORRECTION
Everyone,
“In the middle of the night” the Lord brought to my remembrance a sentence I posted yesterday at 9:56 am. –(in regards to Chesapeake) It was:
“the new Sr Pastor stated that all this transition had nothing to do with the past years upheavals.”—-It was NOT NOT NOT the new Sr pastor who stated this—but KeithB (as he was leaving to go to KingsWay to be “cared for” by Gene).
KB gets to take credit for that explanation of him leaving his pastoral position in Chesapeake—after the huuuuuuuuuuuuge upheaval and pastoral sins brought to light…and then the new sr pastor, who was originally going to plant a church in Virginia was now returning to his home church of Chesapeake to become the new Sr Pastor. Yep, looks like to Keith, sheep are thought of as …stupid………
Unless that really IS (is?) the case—then all the issues of the upheavals in the Chesapeake story meant nothing,zilch, nada to Keith or anyone else in leadership.
Hmmm… I wonder which it is…….and
Is it the very same thing going on in Midlothian KingsWay?????
Canary you ROCK! I loved your comments in light of the KW situation now that’s speaking truth in love!
Needin hope
What My wife & I went through several years ago is systemic of SGM leadership patterns. Those patterns are repeated in stories all over these blogs and at KW right now.
If you are inclined, please read our story here:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=731
You might get an understanding as to why I have lost patience for these men who are beating up the bride of Christ. Their actions will not get them the “Well done! Good and Faithful Servant!” award.
Nope. They will instead, face a very angry Bridegroom.
With that little word picture, I have great compassion for the leaders who are heading to an eternal destruction. My heart breaks for them.
What I offer them right now is ……. “Tough Love”.
If I have to use a “Louisville Slugger” and beat them about the head to get them to see their situation before God, I’ll do it. It just might help them avoid the Fires of Hell in the long run.
My first passion right now though, is to Defend the ones being attacked & beaten down. That means shouting from the housetops all their wrongdoings.
I’ll leave the leaders beating up the Bride to God’s hands for now.
Your Brother,
Defender
needin hope…,
“To Defender and Defended…will you adopt me????”
HA HA!
Sure, but you will have to do your part of the Ranch chores around here.
Also, I’d have to get permission from your current “Daddy” who has adopted you into His family.
Hmmmm, let me see……..
I’m adopted into His family too, so ………well.
Let’s call it even, and come on over anyhow. (I’ll have those chores waiting.)
Gotta tend to the fruit trees, pick the apples, scoop the dog poop, cut the grass,…..
In the cool of the evening, we’ll sip wine, watch the stars, talk of the goodness of our Daddy’s Grace, and dream of the New Heavens and New Earth.
Love ya needin hope!
Defender
If you have the courage, and haven’t done so yet, please go to the archives and find Esther’s story. It involves some of the same cast of characters (not to be too dramaatic
) as the so-called leaders at Kingsway.
And ironically, there ARE those here who know of drug abuse as well as covering up or protecting perpetrators of sexual abuse! This site is truly a refuge and obviously also a place calling for reform in the name and Power of Jesus Christ our Lord!
I also hope you all will join us in praying for those at KCC, as they are your brothers and sisters in Christ as well. And when one of us is being mistreated, we all suffer.
Needin Hope – Ditto what Defender said!
Thank YOU for your encouragement and sure! come on over anytime.
TO ANY WHO THINK THEY SEE BITTERNESS:
Can I encourage you to seek the Lord? Can I encourage you to FEAR the Lord, revere Him and His mercy before you start judging another’s heart based on a typed message? Can I ask you to consider the love with which YOU have been loved?
The Lord Himself sits in judgement of all of us. It is HE, the Holy Spirit who convicts and reveals sin, not those of us who have the audacity to THINK God might need our help in showing someone else his/her sin. (I have been there.)
How is self-righteousness (you pointing out someone else’s sin) any better or any more righteous than your pronouncement of bitterness in another? Do you not see yourself as judging another’s heart? Have you no concept of the mercy you yourself have received in your deception?
Please know that your culture in SGM is one that promotes the idea that we are somehow capable of identifying our sin and others’ sin. This is so destructive!
Fear God. Love Him and His precious Holy Spirit who not only has the power to convict and expose sin but also the loving mercy to remove it as far as the east is from the west.
Lord, have mercy on us all. Thank you Father for your amazing mercy and grace.
Respectfully submitted,
~Defended
Defender and Defended…just so ya know I’d happily do chores except windows!!
To the Refuge family, I’m gonna sign off from here. I’ll probably check in from time to time and just see what’s going on and needs for prayer. I’ll make myself known though.Thank you for your kindness and patience from the one who was shy and then…sticks her foot in her mouth! As I’ve obviously done here today.
I will be beginning some counseling this week to help me through the process of leaving my SGM church and then hopefully move on. Please pray for me and my family, I think it’s gonna be a long journey. If any wish to keep in touch I can be reached through my e-mail. PK, you have my ok to give it to anyone who requests it.
You are all very special people.
God Bless,
Needin hope
Dear Dude (ps. have I told you how much I love your handle?), you said some things above that I’d like to respond to. (I know, you’re probably already thinking, “For joy!”
) I’d say it’s not alot, just a few things, but apparently, God did not gift me with brevity. Levity yes, brevity not so much.
Dear Brother Dude (I can only imagine a dude is a bro) you said:
Canary,
Your anger runs deep. I am truly sorry you think I was casting a stone. No stones.
I can see bitterness because I have it in my own heart. I have battle scars as well.
You really didn’t mean to say Shameful did you? I do not mean to distract anyone from their focus or away from abusive leaders.Shameful to quote scripture? “Get rid of all bitterness…”
…what a mess all this SGM business is…
I am assuming you have thought of this by now and if you have, please skip this. I know how many times I have said/written something and the Holy Spirit has convicted me, but sometimes it helps to hear thoughts from others. Just a thought (and yes, you can throw this back to me a hundred times because I do this so much, too!) but would you please consider that saying, “Canary, Your anger runs deep” is sort of like thinking that you know what is in another person’s heart? (Like I said, can’t tell you how many times a day I do this, too. Not proud of it, but I do it.)
I totally get it when you say, “I can see bitterness because I have it in my own heart. I have battle scars as well.” I’m right there with you, brother/sister/dude who I assume is a bro. If you want to throw any “you have bitterness” feel free to cast it my way. People who know me really well say they don’t see it but I’m telling you I am SURE I have it. No doubt. Thing is, I’ve gotten to know Canary off and on the site and I’m just not really sure you’ve made a fair accusation here. Like I said, cast that accusation this way. In fact, anyone who wants to cast that or any other accusation on the board, just toss it all my way. I can handle it. I’ll own a lot of it, too. Not proud, but dang, I ain’t nothing but a lowly sinner, anyway. The sooner I come to grips with that, the better.
You also said, “You really didn’t mean to say Shameful did you? …Shameful to quote scripture? “Get rid of all bitterness…” Actually, according to scripture, it would be a shame depending on how it’s handled. There’s this part in Proverbs where it talks about how we can misapply or misuse God’s word. The picture it paints is that of a drunkard swinging around a thornbush. I always pictured the way some people swing around scripture and bring it down on other people’s heads, with little regard for the safety, health or truth of the application. I’m not saying you’re doing that, but I wanted to remind everyone that just because we are saying scripture, does not mean that we are not doing harm and that the bible itself doesn’t warn us about it very sternly. (Oh, how many cuts do we all have from the person who swung the word of God like a weapon instead of wisely applying it like a scaple.)
Ok, that’s it. Hope you’re having a good day.
Stunned
I have been with KingsWay for 20 years and 9 months. I have served in the church in many different capacities. I have a great family (congregation) at KingsWay and am very concerned that our church is imploding. I have met with the leadership one on one and have voiced my concerns and opinions. My mission is to do all every thing in my ability to rescue our church from what I believe is a certain death. However, I see the positive and the negative of the blog concept, but I do not believe that I can be effective or useful in this format. After the Dave Harvey “speech”, I believe that time is of the essence! We need to pull together, get organized, and act in a God glorifying way to salvage our church. I feel very confident that with our Lord’s favor, we can succeed. Please contact me if you want to be part of the solution. Contact info: ~~Email: magraham1-at-gmail-dot-com.
I would like to publicly corroborate Mike D’s posting on September 5 concerning the meeting that took place with Gene, Aaron and Keith on Wednesday September 1, 2010 at 3:30pm. I am the “friend” that met with Mike and the pastors and by every account, the statements contained in your briefing are 100% accurate and complete. I am overcome by sadness resulting from the recent events that are ongoing at Kingsway. I have a great deal of love in my heart for these Pastors and the people of this church. I am well-aware of my sinfulness and I made clear during our meeting that my concern and reason for my appeal was not condemning but a plea for the Church to see a broken and contrite heart. “Please allow the truth to be heard.” I want to say many things, but after my meeting on Wednesday, Ephesians 6:12 continues to replay in my mind. ”We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.” I don’t want this statement to be mis-interpreted. I am not calling Gene evil, however, I stand convinced, the powers of darkness are having a field day! I am all for standing bold in your faith and will prayerfully consider any bibilical action by the CHURCH that we may feel is necessary to stand up and be heard. But radical action will be necessary for this to happen at Kingsway or SGM.
I was in the meeting with Gene, Aaron & Keith for approximately 15 minutes after Mike left. We ended with my question:
CM stated:
“Going back to our previous conclusion whereby you stated our current church polity is problematic, Gene, are you open to the idea, (is their even a crack in the window of possibility) to considering the signicant change of having relationship of accountablity with men in this church, (call them what you will) who possess a position of authority?
Aaron asked me what I meant by “authority” and I responded, “you only agreed to being committed to better engaging your CGL’s, but if 22 of 22 CGL’s said to go “left” and you, the “elders” felt God calling you “right” does it really matter what the CGL’s think or even “if” they are engaged.
Gene gave me a 10 minute confusing response with his biblical support. I then stated, “Gene, this is a YES or a NO question.” He continued back in with his long-winded answer, before Keith interrupted and said ”I think Gene is trying to say NO.” I said Keith, ”I know, but I wanted to hear that from Gene.”
The meeting ended by me asking Gene, then you believe the people of the Church have no authority? And Gene responded, “the people in the church can excercise their authority at any time and leave. Carter, I will love you just as much if you stay or if you go.”
I’m still numb….and broken hearted. I was out of town this Sunday, but it sounds like this was the same message given from the pulpit. I plan to listen and hear it firsthand, again, for myself.
Carter M:
Thank you for giving public support and verification of Mike D’s post, and using your name, no less. I am overwhelmed by the growing number of voices joining together on this.
Continue fighting for your church, Carter. The more that comes from Gene, the more I am seeing why voices are joining together here…the leadership at KingsWay has not given anyone recourse to voice opinions and concerns and any issues publicly.
If there are others, I urge you, for the sake of your church (not for the sake of this blog) to speak up…I beg you to do so.
–pk
Carter, thanks for your report about the meeting. I met you, I think, when we were upgrading John Randel’s house a few years ago. We were no longer part of Kingsway at that time, but you were a huge help there.
When you wrote, “The meeting ended by me asking Gene, then you believe the people of the Church have no authority? And Gene responded, ‘”the people in the church can excercise their authority at any time and leave. Carter, I will love you just as much if you stay or if you go.”‘ My heart is sick. Gene sounds like the same narcissistic, arrogant man that I remember. There is absolutely ZERO humility in his words–NONE!!!
Kingsway men, stand up! Do not allow this man to ride roughshod over you and your families. Either he must go, or you should stop giving or leave. There are many healthy place to go! God help you all. Gene Emerson is out of control.
Mike Graham
Maybe the leaders of Kingway (especially Gene Emerson) need to start by listening to Josh Harris’s message that he gave at CLC on 8/29. If the Kingsway Leaders followed a lot of what Harris taught and claims that they do at CLC then maybe the implosion would stop.
As a side note, I find it quite hypocritical for Josh Harris to give the messsage that he did at Covenant Life Church and allow Gene Emerson to remain as a leader in Sovereign Grace Ministries after what he did but that is another story. I am also skeptical that things are handled at CLC as Harris presents them.
Why do you expect a church implosion to not happen when there is a case of leader who is no longer qualified as a leader due to his sin remaining as a pastor of Kingwsay? If the leaders wanted the implosion to stop then a good start would be for Gene Emerson to either voluntarily or for other leaders remove him from being a leader. Do you expect God to overlook the blatant sin of Kingsway Leadership and still give grace to your church?
As I said before, it would really be the honorable thing for Gene Emerson to step down after doing such a dishonorable thing.
I don’t think anyone is talking about not having mercy on Gene Emerson. We don’t want him to get what he deserves anymore than what we would get if God gave use what we deserved.
On the other hand, scripture clearly shows that due to Gene Emerson’s actions he is at least for now disqualified from being a leader. If Emerson really cared for Kingsway, he would step down for the good of Kingsway. Sadly he isn’t willing to do that.
Of course the fact that Emerson isn’t willing is no surprise. I am sure it was his arrogance that led to doing the actions he did and is what makes him think he has a right to remain in place as a leader.
Since Emerson has been a pastor for so long, if he steps down then I think it would be appropriate to give him some type of severance to ease his transition to getting a secular job. I would argue for that even if Emerson chose not to give SW any type of severance when SW was forced down. Maybe giving Emerson a taste of the medicine he gave SW would be appropriate.
Carter, Mike G, Mike D, MB & all you men at Kingsway!
The Knight is at school tonight, but before he left, he asked me to post a song that Defender posted a couple weeks ago…..I’ll include the lyrics, too. This is the Phil Keaggy version, of course. Rise Up O Men of God!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBM5pU-i4
Rise up O men of God,
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and soul and mind and strength,
To serve the King of Kings,
To serve the King of Kings.
Rise up O men of God,
His Kingdom tarries long,
Bring in the day of brotherhood,
And end the night of wrong,
And end the night of wrong.
Rise up O men of God,
The Church for you doth wait.
Send forth to serve the needs of men
In Christ our strength is great,
In Christ our strength is great.
Lift high the Cross of Christ,
Tread where His feet have trod,
As brothers of the Son of Man,
Rise up O men of God,
Rise up O men of God.
Rise up O men of God,
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and soul and mind and strength,
To serve the King of Kings,
To serve the King of Kings.
Respectfully,
P.K. & P.D.
I love this place right now.
PK and PD if you are ever in the Philly area even just passing through to another destination, you have a meal, some conversation and a bed to sleep in for the night.
Just something to consider…. if Gene does step down —- who will take his place?
Eyes Opening, does someone need to take his place?
That is to say, is Gene filling a useful helpful role of service and ministry that will be lost if he was suspended (I’m betting no way he would voluntarily step aside from reports here)? If that is the case then it sounds like there are several godly loving laymen who could serve their brethren at KCC. But that’s just what I see from the blogging reports. Ultimately they are GOD’s people and I believe God provides for His people.
Aw DB, such a sweet offer! If the Knight & I ever have the ways and means to travel again, we will definitely look you up…next time we’re in Philly.
I’ve never been, but the Knight used to travel extensively with his old job, so I think he’s been there before. (just picture Johnny Cash singing, “I’ve been everywhere, man..”)
P.D.
Carter M,
Thank you for your bravery in standing with Mike, like a real man of God.
I am truly sorry for how Gene broke your heart, but I would like to let you know that I know what that feels like.
Thank you for going face to face with your questions.
I’d like to shake your hand, or even give you a manly hug. Heck, I’d even buy you a pint down at the local Virginia Pub if I could. I don’t know of any around Richmond. (My old stomping ground was Manassas.)
(But you’d have to come out here to Colorado to use that coupon.)
You’ve got friends in Colorado.
Love ya Bro!
Defender
Steve240, good post September 6, 2010 at 5:32 pm
I believe that if Jesus isn’t truly Lord and allowed to be the King of Kings in that congregation, then implosion MUST take place and it would be a kindness to wake up the membership of KCC that THEY are responsible for where, how, and who they worship!
Sadly with the leadership mentality of SGM in general being one of userping Jesus’ lordship, many there, and all over the country probably have forgotten their God-given responsibility is to HIM not to leaders!
So yeah, I just had to click on the link of our brother Phil Keaggy (thanks, PD & PK) and sing that song and pray that the men of Kingsway will RISE UP to God!
To serve the one and only King of Kings!
Oh PD!
I get chills when I hear that song.
Thanks for posting it again.
(Truth be told, I posted the words, but Defended found & posted the you-tube link originally.)
Defender,
Funny you should say “chills.” When I played it tonight, with the lyrics in front of me, I noticed the hair standing up on my arm. Wow, what a powerful song. Oh & sorry I mis-applied who-did-what. The Team of D&D…so hard to tell apart (online at least!)
P.D.
oh you two!! lol.
It’s all the same! We’re one!
God bless you, PD & PK for reminding us all of our charge to rise up!
Mike Graham
Here are a few more thoughts on keeping Kingsway from imploding:
· SGM should be God’s church. With that in mind the leaders should remember that they are to manage it as stewards for God. They need to remember to seek God’s kingdom and interests ahead of their own. They will one day have to give an account to God for what they did and didn’t do.
· Humility. Especially SGM Leadership but also regular members need to remember to do this. Without this the implosion will continue. I Peter 5:5
· As scripture talks about, the sins of Kingsway Leaders have “found them out” (Numbers 32:23). So far it looks like they are content to hide and minimize their sin vs. confessing and forsaking and make the one leader and suffer the consequences of his sin.
· Confession of sin vs. hiding it. Again especially for leaders. Proverbs 28:13. Without confession of sin that has been done, especially leaders, how does Kingway expect to prosper?
· Ask God what he would do. Since SGM is supposedly continuist why not inquire of the Lord through a prophet? Especially the leaders need to humbly go before God to seek what he would have them do. Again they are to be stewards (caretakers) and do what He wants vs. what they think they should do.
· Remember the adominition: 1 Tim 5:21 “I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. “ Paul said this right after rebuking an elder who continued to sin in the presence of all. It sure looks like favoritism is happening at Kingsway with Gene Emerson not facing the consequences of his sin. Why the apparent favoritism?
If group does implode I would hope that people would have the same attitude that Samuel had after he told Saul how God had taken the kingship from Saul. Scripture says that Samuel mourned for Saul and God even asked Samuel how long he was going to be mourning and to go and anoint David as King.
I would hope that people would be sad and mourn the actions of the leaders that were so egregious that their sin caused Kingsway to implode.
Thank you Carter for posting your account on this blog. Thank you most of all for standing for Truth. I am very impressed with how well you articulated your experience and I am most sad that you are having to go through this. It is heartbreaking and so very disappointing. I know because I have been through the same thing. I pray that God continues to give you great revelation and that He saturates you with His love, grace, peace, comfort and mercy as only He can.
I am also one who knows you Carter and I am very proud of the man that you are – strong in the Lord, a man of conviction, and a man that fears God and not man. He will heal your broken heart and He will continue to give you strength and courage as you continue on in this battle. Always remember that the battle belongs to God however, He does choose to use us as His warriors on this earth. You are indeed a general in the Lord’s army!! May God richly bless you!
I have said a lot this evening and hopefully after this post I will be quiet until at least tomorrow night.
Mike Graham said:
“I have been with KingsWay for 20 years and 9 months. I have served in the church in many different capacities. I have a great family (congregation) at KingsWay and am very concerned that our church is imploding. ”
On this “implosion”, if God is as “sovereign” the way SGM teaches then God must certainly be allowing this to happen. Maybe the leaders especially should take this as a sign that something needs to be changed. Are they experiencing something similar to what happened to Moses when there was sin in the camp that caused Israel to be defeated? Shouldn’t the Kingsway Leaders seek God as to what sin is in their camp, including leadership, that might be causing this to happen?
Has SGM lost sight of the fact that one of the reasons for church discipline is to keep the sin of a leader from affecting a local church? Why is church discipline typically only applied to members and not errant leaders?
Just something to consider.
Carter, Mike, and Mark
Thanks so much for taking a courageous stand in a tough situation. Carter’s report of the ending comments of that meeting is cause for great sadness and even greater prayer.
It appears that the SGM/Kingsway position is that the congregation has no authority — hence the sentence (quoting loosely here) about the congregation being able to exercise their authority at any time. Nothing but doublespeak — meaning that the congregation has NO authority.
Sadly, back when we joined the fledgling SCR/Kingsway, we THOUGHT we were joining a “local church.” Somewhere in all the “local church” jargon, there’s a connotation of local involvement, of autonomy, etc. But in reality, we were “joining” something that really is not a local church , but a downline producer for SGM. We thought that the leadership team and pastors were above reproach. We thought that their lack of seminary education was a little unusual for a congregation of highly educated people, but not really a problem because they seemed to sincerely pursue the Word of God. We thought that their answers to our questions of accountability among the pastors were answered. We thought that the church had a loose affiliation with some relatively unknown guys who kept each other accountable because they stayed teachable and involved with each other.
We thought wrong.
The actions surrounding this latest Kingsway debacle show that the dividing wall between clergy and laity has been fortified. We now know that the bond between Kingsway and SGM is hardly a loose affilitation. We now know that congregational input is strangled by constant warnings against narrow re-definitions of gossip and slander to the point that people can disappear from majorly visible ministry positions without anyone questioning why their God-given gifts were suddenly no longer desired. We now know that what we thought was our church is merely a gathering of spectators whose only input can be applause for a glitzy production. And if they decide to throw tomatoes, who cares? They’ve already paid for their tickets, and there aren’t any refunds. You pays your money and you takes your chances. The show must go on — the glitz will continue, and the fiddler on the roof will play his “Happiest Place” tune all the way to the bank.
GE sent out an email that mentioned the postponement of the next family meeting because of waiting to get Peacemakers involved. I believe someone on the blog mentioned that there would not be any more family meetings. This email states that they WILL have more family meetings, but they’re waiting on Peacemakers, so unless it has been superceded by some new revelation in the past couple of days, I want to correct the misinformation.
BD also sent a message asking for unity from the church. That’s going to be a tough one, because, at the hands of SGM, the concept of “the church” has been re-torqued, watered-down, and redefined. I believe that the church is definitely unified in wanting to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; and is unified in wanting to have a biblical voice that will be heard.
As I’ve written this, words from the beautiful hymn ”The Church’s One Foundation” rose from my heart:
yet saints their watch are keeping; their cry goes up, “How long?” And soon the night of weeping shall be the morn of song.
So as I say goodnight, I leave you with the verses of this wonderful hymn as a prayer for my beloved friends at Kingsway and SGM in general.
The church’s one foundation
is Jesus Christ her Lord;
she is his new creation
by water and the Word.
From heaven he came and sought her
to be his holy bride;
with his own blood he bought her,
and for her life he died.
2. Elect from every nation,
yet one o’er all the earth;
her charter of salvation,
one Lord, one faith, one birth;
one holy name she blesses,
partakes one holy food,
and to one hope she presses,
with every grace endued.
3. Though with a scornful wonder
we see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping;
their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.
4. Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till, with the vision glorious,
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.
5. Yet she on earth hath union
with God the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won.
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with thee.
Oh my goodness—away for a few hours and now am dancin’ to read the posts–
KINGSWAY——YOU ARE SIGNIFICANT, SIGNIFICANT IN THIS BATTLE
FOR TRUTH WITH THE FORCES OF SGM
—This is the FIRST time a group of warrior men are taking a stand in the midst of an SGM church upheaval . God is equipping you ! He will continue to instruct you.
I am praying this for you all, Isaiah 30:18-22—
“Therefore the Lord longs to be gracious to YOU,
and therefore He waits on high to have compassion on YOU.
FOR THE LORD IS A GOD OF JUSTICE;
How BLESSED are all those who long for HIM.
O people of Zion,inhabitants in Jerusalem,you will weep no longer.
He will surely be gracious to YOU at the sound of YOUR cry;
When He hears it, He will answer you.
Althought the Lord has given you bread of privation
and water of oppression,
HE, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself,
but your eyes will BEHOLD your Teacher.
And your ears will hear a word behind you–
‘This is the way, walk in it’ — whenever you turn to the right or to the left.
And you will defile your graven images,overlaid with silver,
and your molten images plated with gold.–
You will scatter them as an IMPURE thing, and say to them “be gone’ ! ”
—YOU ARE RISING UP—O MEN OF GOD OF KINGSWAY!
We cheer you on as you are running this leg of the race—we see you with
your eyes on Jesus—all for His Glory!
Oh my!
I was listening to “Rise up O men of God!” again, and had this wave of the Holy Spirit come over me.
You know, we all have our personal images of Jesus in our minds.
Sometimes it is the classic Picture of Jesus, Blond Hair holding the lamb. (I want to call him Sven, cuz he’s just got to be from Scandinavia.)
I gravitate to the rustic images of a more Mideastern man with his (Black) hair blowing in the wind and laughing with His disciples, (probably over another comment made by Peter.)
But when listening to this “War march” by Phil Keaggy, I had this image in my mind that I go to more often than not, described by John in Revelation.
12 And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
13 and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle.
14 And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire;
15 and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
16 And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
So, John is describing this in the only way he can comprehend in his first century experience. I mean, how do you say that his hair glowed as though there were a million watt light bulb in it? (What’s a light bulb? What’s a Watt?)
I’m practically face down on the floor with “His eyes were like a flame of fire;”
(Try to hide from that!?)
Feet that are glowing like white hot metal? It is the only way John can describe brilliance of Glory. How many of you have seen metal so hot that it glows “White Hot” not “Red Hot”, but White. I’ve seen it, It can hurt your eyes to look at it.
AND a voice like the sound of many waters? Think about this one. Two thousand years ago, the loudest sound on the planet was the sound of the ocean waves, or a waterfall. (No Hi-Fi stereo’s yet.) This is LOUD!
And then, “And in His right hand He held seven stars;”.
He can hold the Pleades, in one hand?? (I’m nearly in a panic thinking about this one again.)
And then….”and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword;”
And if that is not enough….”and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”
I’m just sitting here at my computer and I am afraid of walking away lest I do a “John”…..”And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man.”
Okay, so by now I am struck by His overwhelming majesty, and I read on….”And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
I have this overwhelming sense of fear and awe, and what does He do?
The hand that holds the Pleades, is the hand that comforts and brings encouragement to me.
So I find myself in a state of fearless obedience to the King of the Universe, after all there is nothing in creation that can be as terrible as He, and yet He is my source of comfort and joy.
I don’t know if I’d be willing to do anything for Sven, but the One described in Revelation? Now I’d go anywhere, and do anything for Him!
This all happened in a nano-second, as only the Holy Spirit can do.
He’s my Captain, my Champion, My LORD.
And everybody sang:
Rise up O men of God,
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and soul and mind and strength,
To serve the King of Kings,
To serve the King of Kings.
AMEN!
Come, LORD Jesus!
Carter, welcome. I hear how painful this past meeting was for you. This may be of little comfort, but many, oh too many of us have been where you are. The frustration. The grief. The sadness and loss. The ENORMOUS DESIRING FOR GOD TO BE GLORIFIED in our local church. The grief, the grief when He’s not. Just wanted you to know you’re not alone in your feelings and experiences, though, no doubt, each specific is unique.
Stunned
“The meeting ended by me asking Gene, then you believe the people of the Church have no authority? And Gene responded, ‘”the people in the church can excercise their authority at any time and leave. Carter, I will love you just as much if you stay or if you go.”‘
No. Seriously? No. He really thought your concern when it came to church polity was whether HE would still love you if you left or not? Seriously? What does GE’s love for you have to do with whether the church members have any say in THEIR OWN CHURCH? Can someone say self centered?
I find it very strange that the KingsWay website has been blocked. I was going to listen to Dave Harvey for more clarity on what he was attempting to communicate to our church and found no access. My brothers and sisters, that is OUR website and no one has a right to shut it down! This is serious and I will be at the church offices to find out what needed to be hidden in the morning. All I am attempting to do is make sure that I am completely accurate in what I have to say. Leadership, I know that you are monitoring these blogs and you have just opened yourselves up to much more scrutiny. Secrecy is not going to solve or serve anything but Lucifer himself!!!
PK and PD, if you come to Philly, DB and I will have to fight over you. Maybe you can stay at her place for the beauty of the green countryside and my place for the city. Though, now that I think about it, though she’s “out in the burbs” she recently took me to an underground (literally) Chinese grocery store just blocks from my place in the city. So very cool.
I listened to Dave Harvey and he essentially said that the type of Family Meeting where questions are asked by the members is not helpful. So I say if there are to be any family meetings again, they will be tightly controlled.
Also, Harvey’s entire message about Polity starts on a foundation that assumes that only and all paid pastors are Elders. He presents no biblical basis for this. He just assumes it and asks us all to ride down his little road based on that assumption. And he says that any other form of church government will not happen. So if you stay in KingsWay, forget ever having wise older men from the congregation ever able to function as Elders.
I am not sure that we can take the church back. It is not possible. I just think it is time to go.
May God put us in places where we will grow and be challenged to serve Him in new and exciting ways. May there be much good fruit from the places we land. May unrepentant hearts be broken in order to come into a greater knowledge of God’s Grace. May we recognize our works as dirty rags and ourselves as people dependent on God for all we do.
Mike,
I’ve been checking the website as well for exactly the same reason. I was trying to make a “charitable judgment” that maybe the site was down for maintenance, but this does seem rather….strange and coincidental with all the recent upheaval there. I do hope & pray this is not more stonewalling by KingsWay leadership.
P.D.
True, Stunned, so true — “self-centered” (opposite of the definition of love, which is self-LESS) seems to describe GE. Carter, be strengthened in the love of Jesus the Christ— the one Who never ever leaves or forsakes you, or opens a door for you to ‘go’. He always bids you to ‘come’—and you are standing with HIM.
***********************************************************************
Defender—- BEAUTIFUL LIFE-GIVING REJOICING post above
Oh what a glorious awesome picture of our Holy Lord
I’m printing out your post – Glory to God– HE IS the ‘First and the Last–
the LIVING ONE”!
I found the kingsway.cc home page to be blank but the messages are available at this link:
http://www.kingsway.cc/recentsermons.php
Looking Elsewhere:
Thanks for the September 6, 2010 at 10:06 pm update. The family meeting status appears unclear at best.
–pk
Thank you Defended! Amazing detective work!
P.D.
You are welcome! I downloaded the mp3 so I can send it as an attachment to anyone who asks. You never know what can happen to a website.
I’ll give you a clue: “polity and humility. polity and humility.”
Defended:
Thanks for finding the audio messages for KingsWay.
Here’s a direct link to harvey’s message on 9/5 (listen online and/or download while it’s still up):
http://www.kingswayaudio.com/?p=440
–pk
PD said:
“Thank you Defended! Amazing detective work!”
Yeah, Ain’t she great??
I just Love her!
Mike, I just tried the KW website, and only got a blank screen. Surely, on Labor Day, this is just a computer glitch and not an intentional shut-out. Surely. SURELY. Oh, I do hope so. Please let us know what you find out first thing in the morning.
Sadly, Mike, it isn’t OUR website. We are merely ”giving units.” Donors. Cash cows. Pew-dressing. Worker bees. Tote that barge, lift that bale, and smile while you’re doing it. The congregation serves at the convenience of the leaders, and the only authority we can exercise is a right to walk out. The only place we can nail our 95 theses is to a locked door, and nobody on the inside is going to read them. The congregation has no voice in any matter in an SGM church. Think back — can you list examples of when the leadership showed respect for or even any interest in the opinion or will of the congregation?
Oh, my, they trained us so well. Talk the Talk, and RUN, don’t walk, to every meeting, every event. Show up on time, or get reported. Jump up and down in worship. Worship harder. Louder. Give. Give more! Measure your hemlines. Hide that cleavage. Stay away from Promisekeepers / Christian counseling / WWJD / Focus on the Family / other churches , etc., etc., etc., but make sure you pay your money for Celebration and CJ’s books and, and, and… (Just remembered taking the Foundations class. I was shocked when they wanted to collect $5 each to pay for the notebook. No church I’d ever seen had asked for $ for such items. Should’ve paid attention to the checks in my gut way back then, but I didn’t.)
Jesus gave up His rights, and in following His example, we’re slaves to Him. But we are not slaves to other men. Mere men, who’ve elevated themselves into some kind of hocus-pocus catholic/mormon higher level priesthood. It’s insane. Men who are worthy of love, admiration and respect don’t have to demand it. It just happens.
Listening to Harvey’s message:
Near 3:30 he speaks about “voluntary accountability” being necessary for SGM affiliated churches. This sounds like code for “mandatory accountability.”
Has there ever been any church in the history of SGM that has done away with the “voluntary accountability” part of being an SGM church, and remained an SGM church? Please speak up, becuase I would really like to know this and pass on this great news that I am hearing about for the first time in SGM’s history.
Feel free to givete me chapter and verse on where I can find any other sources in this regard, i.e. church stories where when accountability was forsaken, the church remained an SGM church.
Thanks PK. You’re great!!! I have downloaded it on a thumb drive now. As soon as I finish with Josh Harris’ message on 8-29-2010 called “Humble Shepherds and Sheep”, I will listen to “The Harvey speech” again to dissect for further clarity that I go fully equipped with accurate notes that I may speak with full confidence that I am factual. From what I have heard from Harris so far, it would serve Gene Emerson and crew to listen closely to Josh’s message.
Looking Elsewhere “listened to Dave Harvey and he essentially said that the type of Family Meeting where questions are asked by the members is not helpful.”
You gotta be kidding. Not helpful to who? Such questions from members are of enormous value and importance. He needs to watch that reality show, what’s it called, something like “Undercover CEO”. And then maybe he needs to go be an undercover theologian in a church and see what it’s like to be a smart guy with alot on the ball who loves Christ, yet has no input, no voice, no importance at all in his “local church.” Ay-yi-yi.
Looking Elsewhere:
It appears to me that the idea of “paid elders” comes from 1 Tim 5:18. I am not sure where the scripture for the idea of having no lay elders is. I am not taking a position just pointing out possible scriptures.
Mike— In regards to Josh Harris’ message– do we know if indeed, CLC is
living out this message?? Is there no manipulative authority occurring
at CLC?? Is it more double-speak or words backed by true actions?
CLC/Gaithursburg hill/CJ/Josh……… are all astutely aware of the issues coming to light at KingsWay….will they openly see and repent—or present a message to keep the sheep content and complacent?? I guess we shall see…fruit takes awhile…
Still About 20-25 min. in to Harvey’s message, he uses the word “congregationalism,” and says it like he’s describing a wasting disease.
At 28:00 he uses one of my favorite terms, “first among equals.” which is probably an allusion to Strauch’s Biblical Eldership. The context of “first among equals” has origin in the Roman Empire. Google it, read about it, and tell me if it belongs anywhere near the Bible or the Church.
–pk
Postestant Kinght said
“The family meeting status appears unclear at best.”
Being on the Kingsway email list, I received an email Friday, Sep 3.
partial quote follows:
“While it was our desire to schedule a family meeting this week–and we remain committed to having these–we’ve hit some challenges revealing our need for objective outside evaluation before other family meetings. After seeking the input of the community group leaders, we are requesting help from Peacemaker Ministries. We’ll share more information on Sunday morning, but I wanted to give you an update in the interim. ”
In the sermon from Sep 5 near the end your might hear, depending on where the taping is stopped, (I don’t know I am simply suggesting a possible location of the following statement.) Gene says no more family meetings will be held. (Dave did meet with the Kingsway pastors/elders Saturday.)
So, for those of us who were there (I spoke with others), it is clear there will be no more family meetings. I personally disagree with this decision.
Waters,
At this point, I don’t believe anything from SGM. It is “Don’t tell me, it’s show me time”. I just finished a very good message from J Harris and would like to “think” they walk out the words. Although, at this point, my trust and confidence have been shipwrecked. I am in a place where God is showing me a shattered foundation of a church that has to be rebuilt from the ground up. I am up for the task at hand…I only hope that I am not in the minority.
Do they teach this slow choppy method of preaching at Pastor’s College?
Apparently Dave Harvey himself is the one leading the charge that it’s not necessarily fruitful to have public meetings in order to explore perspectives.
He says that the biblical purpose of a public mtg. is for an unrepentant sinner and that is not what they seem to have at KCC (but doesn’t cite a passage).
Harvey says that since KCC is not a congregational church the congregation is not the vehicle for arbitrating matters.
Interesting to me, personally, since one man has had the reins of a church in so.Denver since 1998. They’re on their second sr. pastor, but the website still only has one guy named for leadership. No mention of elders.
Interesting: At 30 min. he says the congregation is to be subject to the elders and nowhere does that commandment get reversed, that elders are to be subject to the congregation.
Harvey mentions existing guidelines at KCC for conflict and he says to follow those. {??}
Just curious, that whole passage seems to be instruction for the elders, isn’t it?
I Peter 5:1-5 or even 1-11, actually. 1-5 talks of the posture or approach to being an elder and then 6-11 speaks of the necessary humility of a pastor, to my thinking.
Dude,
Thank you for a confirmation of what was said on Sunday and who said it. We’re still listening to the Sunday message, but even if this statement isn’t on the tape (as you suggested it may not be)…we’ll accept your first-hand testimony as confirmation of Looking Elsewhere’s statement. Thanks again for speaking up.
P.D.
Still listening to Harvey: I am simply baffled at the straw-man arguments, broad claims and arrogance in Harvey’s complete and thorough trashing of congregationalism…in the space of minutes, he has illegitimized centuries and thousands and thousands of lives given to these forms of church government, lives who past, present, and future believe there is a firm foundation in scripture for it. Harvey boldly makes the claim that congregational forms are “more democratic than they are biblical.” I am simply astounded, once again, at the arrogance. Nothing has changed in terms of SGM polity. NOTHING. They can change titles and look pious and wring hands, but nothing has changed, nothing has budged.
So discouraging, and I get angry at myself thinking that there might be some small crack of dawn through these man made idols.
I am so disgusted with all of this. I just want Christ.
–pk
Ohhhh, nooo. Going from “yes, we’ll have family meetings” in writing, no less — to “No, we won’t have family meetings”… Sounds like its time for the family to call a meeting, and invite the leaders instead of vice-versa.
Floundering. Much more floundering, flip flopping, waffling, dodging, parsing, spinning, and there won’t be any family left to meet.
Mike, you’re definitely not in the minority. If we were still at Kingsway, and we’re not — but if we were, there’s no way I could stay and trust or support a group with this polity and these off-the-wall practices. Prayers and love to all of you.
Gosh I didn’t hear any mention of bringing PeaceMakers in, on the tape. {??}
PK - did you find it interesting how Harvey mentions congregationalism, episcopalian, etc. and I didn’t hear him mention “elder led” as a type of church polity yet goes on to use that term to describe them… So what does that mean? Isn’t ‘elder led’ really just code for episcopalian polity? Or did I miss it?
Defended:
Yes, I find it interesting, as in morbidly disgusting. Harvey makes a pat statement that any combination of Elders and Congregants governing a church have “failed.” I am simply marveling at the utter falsehood of these types of statements.
Was Harvey asleep when he read Grudem’s section in ST on “Congregational Plural Local Elders,” the very polity Grudem believes that–while not perfect–would probably reflect Scripture’s presentation of a church the closest? I’m not saying Grudem is Gospel, I am just saying that I am speechless at the statements Harvey has made and sloppy broadstroking of church history that has been done.
I need to stop commenting for the night, I am so appalled and broken for the saints whose lives have been trivialized and run down right now, I’m reaching an end of intelligible words.
–pk
Stunned:
Yes, I had a great day today, until reading some of the posts on this blog, 3-4 of them.
I see posts here that run the gamut from serious heart felt and genuine, caring for others, to malicious and ludicrous. I really feel for those who have been hurt. I know what it feels like, but my hurt isn’t like theirs.
Others make malicious and ludicrous statements, assuming all manner of things that they clearly have no idea about. I think these types of statements are harmful. I think these types of statements have a particular root. I think these statements need to be called out.
Specifically, I did not intend to accuse anyone of anything. I made broad statements of things I saw concerning the tone of discussion. I was specifically referring to things like the one who assumes Gene has dirt on other elders and uses that to keep them quiet. That is a ludicrous statement. There are others.
But the reaction to my first post has taken on a topic of its own. Canary and then Defender and Defended react and tell me I am shameful and in need to seek the L-rd. (Oh I do. But not at your direction and not for what you think. Have you judged me and my heart?) I don’t recall accusing them of anything. My statement of Canary being angry is not a judgement of the heart. It is a simple reaction to the first reaction. The anger appears in the text. I have not seen posts from Defended, Defender, Canary, nor you that appear to be anything but good and genuine toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, until they (and not you) had addressed me with shameful.
I was just thinking about all this ….stuff, and had a thought.
Sounds like this:
When, in the course of church events, it becomes necessary for one congregation to dissolve the polity bands which have connected them with SGM, and to assume among the powers of the Kingdom of God, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. ………
I’m just sayin……..
It’s been over 2 years now since Jim started this blog and Chris started Survivors. Think back over these last 2 years at all that has been exposed in SGM churches. One church after another has been in the spotlight: Chesapeake, Denver, Metro, suburbs of Charlotte (Brent D). Letters have been written to CJ, Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, etc. Phone calls have taken place. Many, many conversations…..and yet…..where is the change? Where is the reform? Where is the repentance? When apologies have been made, how many were contrived, forced because of pressure from up above (I am speaking hear of the leadership team above the pastors). Have any pastors been convicted in their hearts by Holy Spirit and run quickly to those that they sinned against crying out for forgiveness? Maybe but I personally have not heard of any. It took Gene TEN years to apologize to this man and seems like that happened after many, many meetings. Where is the sensitivity to Holy Spirit, the discernment, the desire for holiness and purity, the desire to be like Jesus Christ?
I continue to read words and statements here of wanting to rebuild the foundation of SGM churches and my heart breaks all over again. We have all wanted this for SGM because we loved our church, we loved our pastors and we loved the people there (we still do). Folks, SGM has had plenty of time, plenty of opportunities, and plenty of evidence that they are in the wrong and that they are sinning against many people and hurting God’s people. Yet they are still doing the same things – refusing to relinquish their positions of power and control. You see, as long as people are still coming to their churches, as long as people are still submitting to their controlling leadership, as long as people are still tithing and supporting the SGM machine, still serving the pastors, still doing all the work, it will continue and they will not change. Look at how many leaders of other denominations and pastors of other churches are supporting CJ and SGM. Their books are still being sold and these men are still speaking at other denomination’s conferences. Peacemaker’s has said they cannot be unbiased (shocking!!!). The evidence is unsurmountable!! We have all hoped that CJ and his leaders would be convicted by Holy Spirit and that he would repent. We still hope for that but it sure doesn’t appear to be happening!
It hurts and I know it hurts: to have loved and served, cared for and stood by those (pastors) who will look you in the face and tell you that you can assert your authority by leaving; to have really believed that you were in a church and movement that really loved Jesus and wanted to walk by biblical principles then to find out that it is all a sham; to realize that you were being used for your giving, your serving, your…… (you fill in the blank) and that once you began to question you were discarded. This all hurts (and we all know there is much, much more that people have experienced)! But we forgive because we are forgiven. We count all that has been stolen from us and then we release it all to Jesus because the debt cannot be repaid. We move forward with the promise that God will restore what the locusts have destroyed. We keep our eyes fixed on Jesus Christ and Him alone, receiving His amazing love for each of us. I am so thankful that God has exposed the evil doing to so many and opened our eyes to the truth about SGM. In His kindness, He has delivered us out of the deception and bondage of SGM. I am so grateful and continue to pray for my brothers and sisters who are still held captive! Many of them have heard and seen the evidence but they have made the choice to turn a blind eye and stay in their captivity. May God have mercy on us all!
Silent Running said, “Sounds like its time for the family to call a meeting, and invite the leaders instead of vice-versa.”
I got a great big smile across my face when I read this. Great idea.
Sorry folks, there are so many godly Christians here and there has been such a spirit of goodwill and I’m afraid of doing anything that might change that but Harvy was the major player in my family’s dismemberment. In fact, he is the one that got his boxers in a wad because I was misappropriating the word, “ex-communication,” and corrected me by saying we were released from membership and I, of course, came up with dis-membered (of course, it should be diss-membership.)
Methinks he likes Sadaam Hussein style polity (as long as he’s the fellow with the mustache,) while the rest of us favor things found in the US Constitution (Oh, due process, checks and balances, all that jazz.)
I am compelled to wonder what we would be different about this picture if DH had any reason to treat us fairly all those years ago, things may not have been allowed to metastasized to its present state.
I’m seeing a lot of posts about the absence of the KW homepage. I wanted to let everyone know that PK’s link directly to the Harvey message works. At least at 8:00 AM Tuesday morning it did. The homepage was still blank however.
We’re lacking humility for standing up. (poor, foolish church members who mean well but lack any understanding of what the Scriptures truly say) How very Roman Catholic.
Mike, I’d love to catch up if we could. I’ll send you an email to the address you posted.
Carter, thanks brother!! I know the pain that you are feeling and how hard it is for you right now. I love you, brother. I am looking forward to seeing you soon.
Harvey’s message… WOW, that was one of the most directed attacks I’ve seen thus far. What a quantum leap beyond Mickey C’s comment of “you’re going through a bit of a rough spot here.”
I’ll say more after I’ve had some time to connect the dots more fully. Harvey was very purposeful in twisting the text to say that:
1) We are the elders.
2) That’s what we do here. Take it or leave it.
3) Congregationists are reckless and dangerous.
4) Family meetings are only good for when we (elders) are weeding out those that disagree with us. (those in sin)
5) Congregationalism is not historical but some new American creation full of individualism.
6) If you are not willing to submit to your elders then you are one of those sinners and I would assume are heading towards being the subject of the next family meeting. I’d assume it’s invitation only.
7) Gene’s situation is equal to that of Peter’s.
And I said that I was going to wait until later to write anything…
Mike D,
Welcome back Bro. Amazing outline of DH’s message; once again, you’ve nailed it.
*****************
Fred,
We will all continue to pray for God to move and change hearts, rather than men to move in “damage control.”
******************
Defender,
Great minds think alike. Wait for Friday’s coming post.
P.D.
AB, amen, amen and AMEN!
“Those who look to HIM (not their own sin or to anyone else), their eyes are radiant.” (Psalm 34- italics mine of course)
Dave Harvey spoke as if congregational involvement is totally unscriptural…merely a modern add-on to church polity. He does this by lumping it with a Congregational form of church government that is more like a democracy. That is not what people necessarily want, but at least a measure of congregational involvement.
Allow me to quote Wayne Grudem:
“Another reason for congregational participation in the selection of church officers is that in the New Testament generally, final governing authority seems to rest not with any group outside the church or any group within the church, but with the church as a whole. The final step in church discipline before excommunication is to ‘tell it to the church’ (Matt. 18:17)….One other consideration that is suggestive, but not conclusive, is the fact that the epistles that are written to churches are not sent to the elders or some other group of leaders within the churches, but are all written to entire churches, and the whole congregation is encouraged to read and expected to give heed to these epistles.”
Let me go on with an interesting observation Grudem makes:
“Historically, false doctrine often seems to be adopted by the theologians of the church first, by the pastors second, and by the informed laity, who are daily reading their Bibles and walking with the Lord, last. Therefore, if the leadership begins to stray in doctrine or in life, and there is no election by the congregation, then the church as a whole has no practical means of getting hold of the situation and turning it around.”
Thank you, Wayne. You hit the KingsWay nail on the head.
It is good to Park on Mt. 6 33; ” “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.”
It was an “Ah Ha” moment for me when we were in our fight with our SGM Pastor, and that all the “Seek to kill your sin” teaching was distracting us from following the words of Jesus Himself to seek FIRST His Kingdom and Righteousness.
Seeking anything else first, is itself sin.
See how deceptive and insidious these teachings from SGM are?
They lead you slowly away from Christ and what He would have you do, and back into the captivity of your sin.
Defender
PD,
I gotta wait for Friday??
This sounds pretty good. Not sure if I can wait, but then I don’t have much of a choice do I?
On Pins & Needles,
Defender
Dave’s message:
“Gene’s care was woefully insufficient”
Wouldn’t this at a minimum bring up the question of disqualification? Dave- why didn’t you address it? If his care was woefully insufficient, does he meet the qualification for a pastor? Is he vigilant (Gr: nephalios)? Is he a lover of good men (Gr: philagathos)? Is he not not overbearing (Gr: authades)?
More Quotes from Dave – Aren’t these somewhat contradictory statements?
“The congregation does not possess the authority to lead the elders”
“The church should be counseled for major decisions that affect the church”
And where did he come up with this one?
“The intended biblical purpose of public meetings is to address the unrepentant sinner”
Looking Elsewhere said: Also, Harvey’s entire message about Polity starts on a foundation that assumes that only and all paid pastors are Elders.
Uhhh — Paul was a tentmaker. Uhhh — many churches do not have PAID pastors.
Excellent point, Silent Running.
Those of you that know me, know that I am a Patriot at heart. At this time in my 58 years of life, this has evolved into the time that I can most identify with our Founding Fathers. Please just begin to read our Declaration of Independence and you will see exactly what I mean. This will also serve each of us in the direction we should go. I firmly believe that this is God inspired!
http://www.constitution.org/usdeclar.htm
I plead with you to stay in the fight. “If He is for us, who can be against us”.
Mike:
Great comment. Stay tuned for Friday here at the blog (5am MST, 7am EST) as I am posting something related to your burden.
–pk
Beloved in Christ:
Apologies for the heavy heart I had a hard time controlling last night as I listened to Dave Harvey’s message from this past Sunday at KingsWay. I haven’t changed my mind about about what Harvey said, I have a lot more thoughts on the matter, but my emotions were scrambled and burned from that message. I was up watching TV like a zombie.
Thank God for His faithfulness in drying eyes and renewing resolve.
My prayer is that God simply changes men’s hearts, whether that means the beloved at KingsWay stay or go. Harvey’s claim that Episcopalian+Presbyterian (yes, he combined them in the same sentence in a manner like they were Matchbox and HotWheels in similarity…how he marries those two is beyond me) models are the “more traditional” forms of historic polity (and therefore more legitimate in terms of SGM polity practices) displays two things:
1) Harvey’s incredible ignorance of Church history. “Essentially Reformed?” No. Never.
2) He has effectively and globally illegitimized thousands and thousands of churches and Christian brothers and sisters.
I beg my brothers and sisters at KingsWay to seriously consider the massive and authoritarian ties you have with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Not one breath of his message had anything to do with a flock member. It had everything to do with leaders, protecting leaders, serving leaders and being forever their subjects.
Harvey’s words are like a king who attempts to graciously bring this problem of the nuisance of congregationalists to his kingdom, so he can garner your support in expunging them. If you do not hear that in Harvey’s message, then you didn’t listen to Harvey’s message. I don’t have to assign any motives. Harvey made them crystal clear for anyone who is listening. His use of the word humility was a crime, quite frankly, in terms of the flock member.
Take back your church.
–pk
Dave Harvey as King John (the same Prince John that was the cowardly lion sucking his themb in the Disney version of Robin Hood.) in the field compelled by his rebellioius noblemen (the elders of the various churches) asserting their God given rights that was the basis of English Common Law that was the basis of our Declaration and Constitution all the while in a snivveling whiney tone invoking the pseudo doctrine of the Divine Right of Kings.
He tried to push off Gary Ezzo’s parenting philosophies as doctrine so don’t laugh too hard.
Anyway, PK, brilliant and entertaining.
I also listened to Dave Harvey’s message. I would add the following.
Though Harvey praised Emerson he stopped short of indicating that he had personally investigated the actions of Gene Emerson and felt that despite what Gene Emerson did it was acceptable for him to remain as the Sr Pastor/elder. Harvey only mentioned Emerson’s pride and arrogance and not caring for people properly. No mention was made of Gene Emerson withholding the truth for almost 10 years.
I would have thought if Harvey really wanted to help he would have said something like this makes me wonder. Did Harvey not have as full of confidence in Emerson as he was trying to imply? Was Harvey waiting for Peacemaker’s analysis before making his own statement? Why didn’t Harvey indicate that despite Gene’s actions he still felt he was still qualified as an elder?
There also was some double speak. Harvey claimed he had not authority over Kingsway with the control being only with the elders of Kingsway. Emerson stated at the end that there was a voluntary submission to SGM Leaders. If that is the case, why is SGM not doing at least their own investigation.
As others have indicated, Harvey seemed to imply that the only acceptable type of elder rule was with paid pastors being the elders. Harvey also claimed that it was the elders leading together vs. just the Sr. Pastor.
As other have shared before, being a paid elder can make one “toe the party line.” If a paid elder dissents too much or even questions it is possible that he may lose his livelihood and thus not be able to support his family. If one is a lay elder not on the church’s payroll it is not like dissenting or questioning could cause one to lose his income. He would typically be a lot more free to question and dissent vs. conveniently overlook things or go along with the Sr. Pastor.
I don’t have nearly as much of an issue with an elder led church where a significant number of the elders are lay elders that don’t have to worry about what they say possibly causing them to lose their livelihood.
Harvey also talked abut the need for humility both with elders and regular members. I certainly hope that Emerson heard and listens to that teaching. I am sure that Emerson’s lack of humility is what led him to the various sin he committed.
I again question keeping someone as a Sr. Pastor if he has such a problem with humility. Doesn’t scripture indicate he is disqualified if he lacks humility. Wouldn’t it be better Emerson to step down for a period and address his arrogance vs. on the job training in that while Sr. Pastor at Kingsway? Also, why was not mention of what was being done to make sure Gene Emerson permanently changes?
I also wonder just how hypocritical the statements of Dave Harvey are about humility including stating that one shouldn’t feel their memory of a wrong done to them is 20/20 and feel the other person has it wrong. Maybe Harvey should listen to and follow his own teaching when I hear the reports of how he treated DB and her family.
Like many, I am new to the blogosphere and also feeling lost and tossed. Please direct me to the right area of this site if my comments are out of place. My sole desire is to know where God would have our family planted now that what I thought were somewhat deepening roots, at least among individuals at KCC, seem to have been ripped out of the ground. I would love to know what others are thinking about corporate worship apart from SGM/KCC in the future. Could we be a body, serving others, growing together, anchored in the Word, secure in our Heavenly Father’s love for us, or will we just stay lost and tossed? Clearly, we need to seek Him FIRST and allow Christ to lead us in such weighty decisions, but my hope is that we don’t, out of desperation, forsake the assembling of ourselves together. Is there any hope that former KCCers could worship together in Spirit and Truth outside the tyranny of SGM?
Steve240,
Thanks as usual for your deep thinking and deeper analysis. Really interesting hypothesis about DH possibly holding back, waiting for Peacemakers’ analysis. Hmmmm.
P.D.
Open Sea, yes, there is always hope! Being cast away from the familiar is frightening but faith will lead you to where God wants you to go. The world is a beautiful place outside of SGM where many saints worship together in spirit and in truth.
PK, no need to apologize when you feel so strongly for the saints in SGM. You and PD are carrying a huge burden that will feel heavy at times. It hurts to love! But it is love we are called to. Keep walking, my brother in Christ. We are all here to support you.
The Open Sea,
I’m so glad you’re here; there are many from KCC here as well. And I love your questions–the cry of your heart. It has been mine as well. We are watching the story at KCC unfold with great compassion (and with prayer) and trusting God’s best for you all. I love what you’ve expressed here; it is so fresh and honest and I believe our God will answer.
P.D.
Steve240:
Thank you so much for providing a cogent respose to Harvey’s message at September 7, 2010 at 7:30 pm.
Much better than my emotional diatribe.
–pk
Open Sea:
Welcome to the ‘fuge.
–pk
Canary:
Thank you, re: September 7, 2010 at 9:17 pm.
–pk
pk, it’s ok to be emotional sometimes!
{{{{{{{{{{{{ pk }}}}}}}}}}}}
Thanks Ellie!
–pk
Ellie,
Bless you! You should see the Knight when he’s had too much caffeine. Not pretty.
P.D.
On Brother Dave’s Message at KWCC on 9-5-2010
The truth be told
Of which it was not
The brother you referenced
Really has no ought
Misguided was our special guest
As was also his 1Peter text
More helpful to address his peer
The one he seems to hold so dear
For he chooses not the truth
When he has the chance
And when the light is shone
We see he cannot dance
Young Mr. Harris says it well
Our guest should take a note
If we were Congregationalist
Josh would get our vote
Welcome back, Poet. Thanks for bringing a bit of class and culture to the ‘Fuge.
I’m putting Mozart on….
P.D.
To The Keepers
To the keepers of this page
I humbly do submit
It is for you to gauge
The fragrance of my wit
At any time you find it ill
Please tell me as you must
Leary of my lack of skill
At times I can be crust
In the middle of this mess
I find release in prose
I write the rhymes to bless
In spite of all the woes
Seriously though, I do respect the things that are shared here and do not want to deter from the seriousness of these matters. I will welcome your blessing PK and PD in order to continue…
P.S. Thank you MB for your kind words previously.
Poet:
Keep commenting/writing!
We need life recorded in verse to laugh, cry, pray, praise God, and just live.
–pk
Poet, you rock!
And don’t worry about the mode of your expression….just ask the Quizzler!
PK said, “Steve240: Thank you so much for providing a cogent respose to Harvey’s message at September 7, 2010 at 7:30 pm. Much better than my emotional diatribe.”
PK, sit right down cause it’s time for some correction here, dude… I mean, PK. What you said above? Couldn’t be further from the truth. Not that what Steve said wasn’t good and helpful and I have NOTHING against what he said, but I’d like to address the part of the statement that refers to what you wrote. PK, you don’t seem to have any idea, but, at least for me, it is your “emotional” diatribes that speak to me. I suppose it is the way I am hard wired, but I can comprehend your writing better when you allow your emotions to flow and the truth of your heart to be exposed. I know some people think that their logic is best understood when they remove deep emotion from their writings. Not so for me. For whatever reason, the way God made me, I have a much better time soaking in the words when they are not divorced from the emotion. (And oh, the boring discussion that could ensue from trying to argue why that is could fill a dusty old book!)
So please, brother PK, please, don’t apologize for the times when you write what you call emotional diatribes. Those are often the posts of your that speak the most to me.
Correction brought.
Stunned
Love the addition of poetry.
“To the keepers of this page
I humbly do submit
It is for you to gauge
The fragrance of my wit”
Love this part. :}
Mike:
Quoting from your post, I have not listened to Harvey’s message but adding commentary of my own:
I’ll say more after I’ve had some time to connect the dots more fully. Harvey was very purposeful in twisting the text to say that:
1) We are the elders.
2) That’s what we do here. Take it or leave it.
3) Congregationists are wreckless and dangerous.
I wonder what Mark Dever would say about the above quote. Mark Dever and IX Marks Ministries are committed congregationalists and I beleive so is John Piper. If Congregationalists are wreckless and dangerous, than why does SGM continue to associate with Mark Dever.?
4) Family meetings are only good for when we (elders) are weeding out those that disagree with us. (those in sin)
5) Congregationalism is not historical but some new American creation full of individualism.
Point five is complete nonsense. Many of the English Puritans, from which Dave Harvey likes to quote, were committed congregationalists while some were presbyterians. It is wholly inaccurate to state that congregationalism is an American creation. Furthermore, at the 2000 SGM leadership conference, in speaking of the differences in polity among the Puritans, Mark Dever made the comment “I believe the congregationalists got it right”. I think I have this tape. Mark Dever is more through theologian and student of church history than anyone in SGM leadership and he would not make such a statement of opionion unless he felt there was Biblical warrant for the view being expressed.
Look, if you can make up new definitions for words, you can rewrite history, too. Doesn’t anyone know the rules around here?
The Open Sea says:
September 7, 2010 at 7:40 pm
“Like many, I am new to the blogosphere and also feeling lost and tossed. Please direct me to the right area of this site if my comments are out of place. My sole desire is to know where God would have our family planted now that what I thought were somewhat deepening roots, at least among individuals at KCC, seem to have been ripped out of the ground.”
Here is a link that gives suggestions that one person made for leaving SGM:
http://sguncensored.blogspot.c.....grace.html
It is actually a reprint of a comment posted here on SGM Refuge a while ago.
Another suggestion I would make is that maybe even before you leave SGM (if that is what you are doing) you develop friends and support outside of your SGM Church. Typically most people in SGM their whole life including friends revolve around SGM. Thus if you build friendships before you leave it wouldn’t be nearly as hard on you.
Hope this helps.
Steve240:
Thank you so much for providing a cogent respose to Harvey’s message at September 7, 2010 at 7:30 pm.
Much better than my emotional diatribe.
–pk
Thanks for your encouragement PK and also for PD’s. I appreciate all the work you and PD do here, especially with the Dennis fiasco.
I wouldn’t call you analysis an emotional diatribe on what Harvey said. It was quite insightful. It is sad that Harvey portrays only the extremes such as paid elder rule (like at SGM) and congregationalism. It is not like there is anything that works between these two including having lay elders. I believe most baptist churches have lay elder rule and sometimes these elders aren’t even elected.
I think was Harvey was saying was that even if there are problems at Kingsway this is our form of polity. Take it or leave it. Don’t expect paid elder rule to change. Also he said it isn’t the responsibility of the congregation to adjudicate wrongs done by leadership. That is the responsibility only of the elders. (Not sure how is suppose to work????)
What is baffling is that despite his seeming to indicate there are problems at Kingsway, he was not at all open to the possibility that SGM/Kingsway’s polity might be the cause of the problems including why the Sr. Pastor could have the problems he had. It is like even if there are problems this is how our polity has always been.
If a group has the problems that continue to come to light within SGM wouldn’t it make sense to try and determine what is causing that. Could it be that maybe their polity needs to at least be “tweeked” if it might correct the problems that are coming to light. Do they think things will be different if they don’t change including with their polity? If there weren’t the problems then one could argue they could keep the same polity.
Maybe this is the real problem: SGM Leaders still haven’t realized that there are so many problems in their churches. Perhaps they are not wanting to see the truth.
Poet said:
“Young Mr. Harris says it well
Our guest should take a note
If we were Congregationalist
Josh would get our vote”
Harris might have SAID the right words. I really question whether what he said are practiced at CLC like he says. Josh Harris might even think they are but could be self deceived just like Gene Emerson was with thinking what he did to SW was right. It is isn’t like one never hears about problems happening at CLC.
Josh Harris only said it well if his actual words match how the rest of the world defines words. But when you become one of those guys whose logic runs along the lines of, “it depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is” then your words mean little to nothing. For me, there is no way the word “well” can be applied to anything coming out of their mouths at that point. Only their actions have any weight or value when that happens.
Stunned:
Correction received.
Steve 240:
Thank you.
Me:
More coffee, please.
–pk
Harvey’s comments — good gosh, where do they come up with this stuff? IFF there are several different church polity models that fit into the scriptural framework, then we ought to have the good sense to realize that the proof is in the pudding. The SGM polity pudding didn’t gel. It doesn’t work. Therefore, time to change the recipe.
Harvey’s attempt at damage control – rounding up the sheep and herding ‘em back into the pen — may well be an eye-opener for those who were following blindly. He made it clear that SGM polity is written in stone, and if you don’t like it their way, take the highway. The folks at Kingsway are not dumb. They’re well-educated. They’re hard workers. They’re passionate about their faith. Some are going to realize that they might have been putting their faith into a system and not a Saviour.
It may be that the Holy Spirit will lead some to stay and others to go. But look out for a logjam of evacuation traffic coming out of Charter Colony Parkway.
Looking Elsewhere: Thanks for posting this:
Let me go on with an interesting observation Grudem makes:
“Historically, false doctrine often seems to be adopted by the theologians of the church first, by the pastors second, and by the informed laity, who are daily reading their Bibles and walking with the Lord, last. Therefore, if the leadership begins to stray in doctrine or in life, and there is no election by the congregation, then the church as a whole has no practical means of getting hold of the situation and turning it around.”
What a CLEAR picture of the SGM situation.
Yep. That was from “Systematic Theology” available in the KWCC book store.
Wayne Grudem in Systematic Theology said, ““Historically, false doctrine often seems to be adopted by the theologians of the church first”.
Any chance we can apply Shakespeare solution for lawyers to theologians?
OK, just kidding. Sorta.
So if Grudem is accurate, why is it that we put any weight or even give a freaking clue about what a theologian says? Aren’t they just another person? Don’t we all have the ultimate teacher living inside of us and desiring to speak to us and have fellowship with us at all times? I know, I know, I’ll get off my “why should we care what any theologian saysn, they’re only another person who has spent more time in a library than out actually loving people” soap box again? (I’m not talking about the theologians who actually do real research and discover things about bible times, history, etimology of some biblical words, etc. Just the ones who come up with this century’s new “it” theology. I know, I know. Someone’s gotta shut me down.)
So, Silent Running….speaking of evacuation plans….what is the feeling among the caring godly men of KCC concerning evacuation from SGM?
I want to take the hands of you, Looking Elsewhere….the Mike’s, and pray with you and ask the Lord for His comfort, His direction, His shining face to be your guide!
The callous way that SGM has taken to saying “if you don’t like it, leave” is such a crystal clear picture of the lack of love in their message, their lifestyle, their care for the brethren.
Yes Stunned, you are so right! This is worth repeating! “For me, there is no way the word “well” can be applied to anything coming out of their mouths at that point. Only their actions have any weight or value when that happens.” Actions speak louder than words! The words often flow like honey from SGM leaders’ lips and these words sound so good. Often the words are straight out of the Bible. That’s what can be so confusing. Many times what they say sounds so good but sadly, you cannot believe them. I have experienced them saying what they think you want to hear but then doing exactly the opposite of what they said. The day I realized that my pastors were not honest men was a very dark day for me. Shock does not even begin to express how I felt.
Open Seas, Don’t wait until you have made friends on the outside to leave. If you know you are going, I say GO quickly. It really is much easier to make friends outside once you are out of there. Staying even one day past when you know you must go can cause even more damage and hurt for yourself. That’s just my 2 cents anyway. Freedom in Jesus is so sweet and He will provide everything you need for your new journey, including friends.
Defended said “The callous way that SGM has taken to saying “if you don’t like it, leave” is such a crystal clear picture of the lack of love in their message, their lifestyle, their care for the brethren.”
So true, contrast that beside how Jesus our Great Shepherd cares for us
John 10:7-15
“Truly,truly,I say to you,I am the door of the sheep.All who came before me are thieves and robbers,but the sheep did not listen to them.I am the door.
If anyone enters by me,he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy.I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
I am the good shepherd.The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd,who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees,and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,just as the Father knows me and I know the Father:and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Stunned:
BAM!
–pk
Open Seas,
You have friends right here.
We will help you and be your friends as much as we can.
Defended & I still keep in touch with (non-SGM) friends in VA, some in Safford, if you would like to get to know some real quality God fearing people.
Truth be told Fred is right, Jesus will add to you, far more friends than you thought you had.
If you want to talk off line, Defended & I share an email account for contacting friends here. It is: Defended1 at gmail dot com.
It can be terrifying to be on the Open Sea alone. YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
Funny that SGM likes to call the worship service THE MEETING, yet now there’ll be no more ”family meetings” where people can ask questions. It seems to me that every meeting is first and foremost a time of seeking God — questions are natural.
So, fellas, if you don’t want to answer questions, do you really want our checks in the offering plate? Harvey’s dismissal of congregationists sounds like the elders don’t even want a congregation– maybe they’d prefer prefer a monastery. Yeah, that renegade KW congregation just doesn’t measure up – haven’t they paid attention to Ceej? That congregation is a huge failure — they sure haven’t made their pastor happy over the past few weeks. They need to listen to Harvey and just sit down and shut up, because, after all, they’re ONLY the congregation. So, away with them….hey, they can just mail in their checks.
All Right Silent Running, you got me thinking.
What if, just if, the members of the congregation, (Yep! “CONGREGATION”) just with held their tithes & offerings and “banked” all that $$ for a while. After these mighty elites are wringing their hands in fear of how to keep the lights lit, & the furnace running, (Yup, winter is coming) not to mention their own salaries; the congregation place in the offering plates one Sunday, a letter from each family, listing specific questions with the requirement that all questions be answered to the members satisfaction On a given Sunday Morning “Meeting” using the Microphones and sound system and a recording be made available to the WWW.
The end salutation of the letter be included with a balance of $$ that will be released after those stipulation are met.
Ya know, my (earthly) dad once told me that if you want to get a man’s attention, hit him in his pocket book. You’ll have it.
(I recall that technique being made once, about 200+ years ago that involved Tea in a Harbor somewhere near, ….. Boston was it?)
I’m just sayin…….
Formersgmer-
Some of my statements earlier would better be classified as implications and not quotes. I hope that I did not cause any confusion.
1) We are the elders. — plainly stated by DH, GE, or any other leader in SGM and was nothing new. (this was very close to the beginning of the message)
2) That’s what we do here. Take it or leave it. — DH said, “You’ve joined a church that holds to elder led authority in a movement that has applied the same.” You mentioned Dever in your comment. DH stated that he loves and respects Dever but Dever is a congregationalist and therefore could not be a member of this church. He then goes on to say that SGM and KW leadership does not feel “some call from God to pioneer some kind of new way of doing things” and if you’ve come here with a different view from theirs then we can respect the differences but things will not change at SGM or KW. Hence, take it or leave it. (this is found about 30 minutes into the message)
3) Congregationalist’s are reckless and dangerous. Many statements led me to this conclusion. DH referenced “finding Jimmy Hoffa’s body” as a an example to the mushrooming effect that a congregationalist approach to confession of sins. Things grow out of proportion. He also offered an “aside” to wisely direct us all away from public meetings because “little gets resolved,” perspectives get in the way and must be handled through unhurried, relational approaches. Public meetings should be saved for addressing unrepentant sinners. And while there are other statements made, DH seems to sum up his view of congregationalist when he states that “congregants are not called upon in the NT to arbitrate matters.” In appears that in one single, short phrase DH is stating that congregationalist could possibly even be unbiblical.
4) Family meetings are only good for when we (elders) are weeding out those that disagree with us. (those in sin) Again, going back to, “it might be wise to save the public meetings for their intended use which is to address the unrepentant sinner.” That statement, in context, implies the use of public meetings as a warning to all that would disagree with the elders in this situation. (about 15-20 minutes in)
5) Congregationalism is not historical but some new American creation full of individualism. DH does state that there is SOME historical support for congregational authority but that is mostly limited to the last 200 yrs. and is probably more democratic than biblical. That implies at least a late English history. I believe there was an attempt to sway the view away from it having any depth and make it appear to be new and therefore not rooted biblically or historically. (about 30 minutes in)
So formersgmer, or any one else, if I misled I apologize. It was never the intent and hopefully I’ve supported my statements however brief. Thanks for making do the work formersgmer. None of us should make any statements, presented as fact, that we can’t support.
(btw – what a mess of spelling the word reckless in my earlier comment… no more half awake commenting for me)
Mike
Mike said, “DH said, “You’ve joined a church that holds to elder led authority in a movement that has applied the same.”
Well guess what. When I joined MY SGM church, it DID have elders who were party of the congregation and were NOT on staff. And then Dave Harvey came and joined my church, not on staff. And guess what else. When Dave Harvey came into our church, it STILL had elders who were part of the congregation and NOT on staff and not paid by anyone in the church.
Mike also said that Dave Harvey “then goes on to say that SGM and KW leadership does not feel “some call from God to pioneer some kind of new way of doing things” .
Pioneer some kind of NEW WAY?!?!? How about you just go back to the way things were when I first came to Covenant Fellowship. It was actually you guys who DID change things. (though the pioneering part was done by the Catholic church centuries ago.) Let’s stop rewriting history here, Dave. No need to bring in the names of the elders- the UNPAID, not on staff elders whose positions were removed from the church structure after I had been there for quite some time. And without it ever being announced to the church on a ny Sunday morning for any of us to make any decision about, whether we wanted to stay or go once YOU GUYS had initiated the change. I had to find out while I was chatting with a friend.
Mike also said that DH said (but not a direct quote I believe) “and if you’ve come here with a different view from theirs then we can respect the differences but things will not change at SGM or KW. Hence, take it or leave it. ”
But things already did change? And what happened to your “constant change is here to stay”? When AREN’T you guys changing things to meet your own agendas? (In other words, to fit into what ever it is that CJ wants?) How about the family that you told to leave because they actually had the GALL to tell you that they believed that God calls people (people who are not necessarily raised up through the pastor’s college) to be missionaries? Then just months after they go, CJ all of a sudden has a “revelation” that he was wrong and had been wrong all along. I believe he “repented” of that stance. So did you call that couple back, the ones who had been leading the children’s ministry and loving so many people in the church…did YOU call them back to repent in turn? Did you call them back and go, “Gee, we were wrong. You’re not bad for believing in people being called into the missionary field. CJ heard from God and it turns out it’s OK”?
We’re not changing, my eye. SGM is constantly changing. Unfortunately it’s usually only to put the car in reverse and back up over the fmailies you have already run down.
Defender, how do you type out, “hee hee hee hee’ without looking like a niny? Your post made me laugh loudly.
So ‘new fangled’ American democracy is not in the new testament? But you know what kind of governance was? Slavery? Should we start living by that method now, too, Dave? Do you know what else wasn’ t in the bible? Electricity. And zippers. And cars. And telephones. And computers. Does this mean they are all “unbiblical”, too?
Listen you … listen, democracy has been around since good old King John (prince John in DB’s earlier comments- way to know your history, girl). And THAT form of self government was only put in place because- are you ready for this?- the people rose up and FORCED it upon the king. Ever hear of the magna carta? That’s what the people FORCED John to sign. And when he signed it, John’s plans (the rascal) was to CHANGE and break the magna carta in the next season for war (they fought battles in the ‘in’ season) but something came up and he lost his power so couldn’t overthrow those who had fought so bravely and justly for representation.
Now that was in 1215. Certainly not in the bible. I guess our form of government is unbiblical, too. Too bad someone didn’t tell our founding fathers that. WAIT. Many idiots tried to use that line on them, too. Thank heavens our founding fathers weren’t foolish enough to listen to that harebrained argument.
How about you?
Mike,
Thanks for your further explanations. I always appreciate your carefully-thought-out comments. Even when they’re not caffiene-infused. I think the inferences your made from DH’s message were right on. You just cut through all the flowery speech and tap-dancing language and got to the heart of it. Oh & your former spelling was corrected. I got yer back, buddy.
And Stunned — you rock!
P.D.
Stunned says:
September 8, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Defender, how do you type out, “hee hee hee hee’ without looking like a niny? Your post made me laugh loudly.
I’m glad to be your entertainment between the acts here on the ‘Fuge.
I’ll be here till Jesus comes back. (Or He calls me home first.)
Da Ta Ta Ta, Ta Ta Ta,…..(Tap dancing to the tune, “Rise Up Oh Men Of God”)
“it might be wise to save the public meetings for their intended use which is to address the unrepentant sinner.”
Intended by WHOM?!? There is NO WHERE in the entire bible that says that there is one and only one reason for public meetings? That is ludicrous and ignorant and a misuse of scripture at best and offensive and manipulative to say the least.
DH referenced “finding Jimmy Hoffa’s body” as a an example to the mushrooming effect that a congregationalist approach to confession of sins.
Mike, I’m not really clear what you’re saying here.
Things grow out of proportion.
You mean things like telling women not to leave an abusive husband or telling parents that they are in sin and unforgiving if they report the rape of their child to the authorities? This stuff happened under their non-un=paid elder watch. What the heck else do they think is going to happen if things change? Don’t know if it’s ever gotten that bad in a congregationalist governed church.
Things grow out of proportion. He also offered an “aside” to wisely direct us all away from public meetings because “little gets resolved,”
Like Gene Emerson finally repenting of slander after nearly 10 years? Whose standards are we using when we measure “little” here. If you look at history, TONS have gotten resolved in public meetings. sheesh, where did these guys go to seminary? Oh yeah….
perspectives get in the way and must be handled through unhurried, relational approaches.
Relational approaches? Like the, “it’s my ball and church (that you paid for and do volunteer work for and give your time and love and devotion to and bring your family to and are committed to and weep over and rejoice over and pray over) and if you don’t like it MY way you can get out” relational way? Not much of a relationship as I see it. But, I never took the Capt. Bligh Leadership Training classes, so maybe I missed something.
This sounds way to familiar:
Calvin, called in by earlier reformers who had driven out their bishop, was able to set up his model Christian community at Geneva in Switzerland. A body of ministers ruled the church; a consistory of ministers and elders ruled the town. The rule was strict; all loose, light, or frivolous living was suppressed; disaffected persons were driven into exile. The form of worship was severe, and favored the intellectual rather than the emotional or the aesthetic.
Could it be….. Some from SG are being “driven into exile”….
Just a thought!
And Calvin ended up having one guy arrested, persecuted and finally the guy got the death sentence because they disagreed on theology. Talk about harsh, fear and control.
It just reminds me of conversations with my former!
Almost makes one wonder if we disagree with some of the ways/polity/doctrine of our church leadership (especially if we belong to SG)………..Do they seriously believe that we are not of the “elect”…..
IS THIS WHY WHEN ONE LEAVES THAT THEY ARE SHUNNED? WOW… If so.. .I understand now!
What a sad day when that occurs… If in fact – that is what they feel in their hearts.
Yeah.
In the discussion on Perserverance/Assurance of Salvation, SGM falls in the camp of “Tests of Genuineness View” whereby if you don’t fit all the tests, you never were saved in the first place.
So it is easy to discredit and “shun” you, when you disagree with them.
“Three primary representatives of this view are John Owen, Roger Nicole, and Wayne Grudem.”
From: Perseverance and Assurance:
A Survey and a Proposal
Thomas R. Schreiner
1998
Pg 38
(I don’t know if my citation is in the correct format, but there it is.)
Stunned,
:::::::::::: standing ovation :::::::::::::::::
Silent Running:
“So, fellas, if you don’t want to answer questions, do you really want our checks in the offering plate? ”
You may have touched upon the “third rail” of SGM’s structure. This is precisely what I think SGM leaders want from their churches. Namely, for people to be quiet, pliant and obedient serving in menial ways and sending in their money so the pastors can attend their various conferences, honoring each other and whatever else theychoose to do for themselves. Go look at selection of SGM church websites and apart from the larger churches see how much real ministry is actually being done in these churches. For most of them, the only ministry activity is focused on people under thirty. If you are over thirty, you do not really have a place in most of these churches except as I mentioned above.
Richmond/Midlothian SGMers–
There are several churches at which you’d be welcomed (but not love bombed), fed, allowed to rest, allowed to serve, allowed to worship, and allowed to elect your own dang elders.
Just to start, and I’m sure you guys have more suggestions:
W.E.P.C. (contemporary style), All Saints (not), Stony Point (a little of both) or City Church (funky city outreach) for the reformed crowd,
WEAG or _____________ for the charismatically inclined,
Bon Air Baptist for the Arminians or those who need counsel and healing and solidness,
Swift Creek Baptist, ditto.
God’s at work in the city. Don’t be afraid. Come and worship with us!
Stunned….slight edit or correction….DH said that the family meetings’ only biblical purpose was to address someone with unrepentant sin!
however like you I would love to have someone ask him the scriptural reference for that so-called biblical purpose.
Brethren of KCC…seriously….if you set aside your tithe to GOD – can you do that in a special place or account for a while? It is God’s money…but you have to answer to Him for how you steward it! So while this KCC house is not in order, what about just being patient and waiting on the Lord to direct you in directing and stewarding the tithe…and to be sure that you are part of a congregation that honors the Lord in ALL things?! Especially if you are considering whether the Lord would have you worship someplace else…. It’s a holy thing to really allow the Lord to direct where and how His money is distributed.
I’m just askin…
I know I mentioned some of this earlier but hearing Dave Harvey’s message last Sunday it still surprises me that he didn’t mention and almost seemed to deny SGM’s “covering”/oversight that it supposedly provides for local SGM Churches. Harvey almost indicated that Kingsway elders alone are in control and it is up to them to even police themselves. Is that all of polity that is in place? Only the local pastors (who we now call elders) have any vote or provide oversight of each SGM Church?
Isn’t part of being of the deal with being in the SGM “family” of churches is that SGM provides oversight/”covering” to these churches? Wouldn’t this include that if various members bring up issues with local leadership (elders) SGM could look into these matters and thus provide some type of check/balance? If Harvey indicated there was this additional check/balance wouldn’t regular members feel much better than Harvey claiming he had no authority over this local SGM Church and his almost washing his hands of any responsibility? Isn’t Harvey or one of the other local leaders almost like bishops?
Isn’t this more the truth that SGM can, do and should provide some type of oversight for local churches? Hasn’t Gene Emerson himself gone in and done that including the fiasco he did at the Virginia Beach SGM Church? Were the cases of pastors being “Shanked” something that just voluntarily happened or were they something that one of the regional leaders mandated or “suggested” local leaders do?
Harvey also tried to portray what sin Gene Emerson did as more of an isolated instance. Harvey expressed concern that he didn’t want Gene Emerson’s failures to characterize his ministry. IMO it is pretty rare for a person who has been in leadership as long as Emerson has to only recently start to develop arrogance or that arrogance can be an isolated event. Also a number of people have commented on the blogs that this has been a problem with Emerson for quite a period.
thanks for the clarification, defended.
Stunned-
The reference to “Hoffa’s body” was one of DH’s. To give you some context and hopefully clarify, Hoffa was referenced during DH’s statements about allowing “confession to mushroom outward.” It seemed to me that one could take it a number of ways but in fairness, I believe he was making an exaggerated example of one confessing guilt for everything, including knowing where Hoffa’s body is buried. It also appeared that he was saying that this is much more likely within a congregational model than within SGM’s model. I hope that helps.
Mike, do you mean confessing sins that aren’t even yours?
As I was reading recent entries this AM, one of Defender’s comments jumped off of the screen at me:
In the discussion on Perserverance/Assurance of Salvation, SGM falls in the camp of “Tests of Genuineness View” whereby if you don’t fit all the tests, you never were saved in the first place.
So it is easy to discredit and “shun” you, when you disagree with them.
How sad it is (regardless of where you fall on the Arminius-Calvin continuum) that the SGM response to discerning (in their view) that someone is unsaved – is to shun them, rather than love them into the Kingdom. Whether the circumstance is one of a confused/lost brother or sister. . . or in instance that cries-out for biblical discipline, I believe that God’s heart is for healing and restoration, not shooting the wounded.
The church body that we are blessed to be a part of is filled with broken, messy people who are struggling with issues of faith, health, addictions, criminality, ugly pasts and bleak earthly futures. I have had people sit with me and, in their pain, curse God . . . but then allow me to pray for them because they want to believe and they still cling to hope.
Thankfully, these are the “whosoevers” that would never be allowed to darken the door of a SGM building . . . entry into such a place and the corporate looks would simply and erroneously ”confirm” to them that they do not have any hope of receiving God’s grace. Fortunately, there are many individual believers within the SGM world that WOULD love them and desire to engage in authentic fellowship with these neighbors – if only SGM Incorporated would allow them.
God’s people must break free of what SGM has become and seek after the heart of God!
I concur with PDI Past. I heard the phrase “question their salvation” so many times, that I have many times questioned my salvation. I saw “evidences of grace” (yes the phrase makes me puke, too) in my life, but also saw “indwelling sin” and could not reconcile the two until lately now that I have been able to discard much of the SGM BS that has been hurled at us.
Amen Looking Elsewhere!
I can’t begin to count the times I heard ” I would have to question their salvation”…. Goodness gracious! I’m so thankful that the one whom questions my salvation is the one who is sanctifying me DAILY and granting the evidence of grace in my life!
No man has to tell me who dwells in my heart! Has taken almost 2 years to get some of the “indwelling sin” out of my head and it still creaps in occassionally!
I’m a sinner saved by grace…. Not perfect….. but striving toward the MARK!
Praise the Lord
I’ll amen that comment as well, Looking Elsewhere!
Can you imagine what goes through the minds of the children and teenagers who’ve lived (live) with that constant scrutiny!?! They’re typically confused and a mess, young legalists themselves, or have decided they want NOTHING to do with the Lord.
PDI Past, your church sounds wonderful…
“The church body that we are blessed to be a part of is filled with broken, messy people who are struggling with issues of faith, health, addictions, criminality, ugly pasts and bleak earthly futures. I have had people sit with me and, in their pain, curse God . . . but then allow me to pray for them because they want to believe and they still cling to hope.”
PDI Past, I am in 100% agreement with you!
I love the idea that when the bible tells us to treat someone as if they are a tax collector, that means to love on ‘em, eat meals with them and care for them. That’s exactly who Jesus hung out with. (Among prostitutes and religious leaders. Not that there’s much of a difference between the two sometimes.) So glad that you said it. Love the way you’re loving people.
Stunned
PDI Past said:
“How sad it is (regardless of where you fall on the Arminius-Calvin continuum) that the SGM response to discerning (in their view) that someone is unsaved – is to shun them, rather than love them into the Kingdom. Whether the circumstance is one of a confused/lost brother or sister.”
I think it is especially sad with where SGM claims to be in the “Arminius-Calvin continuum” to be like you describe. After all, SGM claims to believe in a “sovereign grace” or that God only chooses some for salvation. Those God doesn’t choose, according to their supposed belief, is due to God not giving them an “irresistible grace” to be saved. Thus they say they believe that one who is unsaved is due to God not choosing that person or the person’s time of election not being there yet.
If this is what they believe then why shun a person when they claim it only depends on God? It sure makes no sense.
From The Sounds of KingsWay…
These Are a Few of My Least Favorite Things
Indiscreet pastors with arrow-shaped sermons
New words they make up that sound just like German
We treat this man like he’s one of our kings
These are a few of my least favorite things
Coffee with creamer and juice in the lobby
Meeting in small groups so we can be snobby
Polity speeches where truth hardly rings
These are a few of my least favorite things
Nice words are spoken so no one feels lashes
Groups are kept separate so there are no clashes
Little white tales that melt into springs
These are a few of my least favorite things
When the truth hides
When false words stings
When ‘m feeling sad
I simply remember my least favorite things
And then I get real-ly mad
Poet,
Oh my I just had to sing this for the Knight! Yes, my Julie Andrews is a bit rusty. But oh well. This is a piece of art, my friend. Thank you for the tongue-in-cheek musical rendition. And … even through my laughter here, I’m very much praying for you KingsWay…
P.D.
Thanks P.D. Glad to provide nightly entertainment.
Not sure what happened to the spaces between the verses. They were there when I hit submit.
Writing this stuff helps me to sleep at night. Situation here is extremely sad. Thank you for the many prayers. They are needed and they are deeply felt by all!
Poet….thanks for making me smile in spite of gritting my teeth.
Poet,
Spaces for verses all fixed. Geeks-r-us.
P.D.
Back when Larry T was deleted, we received a letter explaining his departure. Wish I still had it so I could quote it verbatim, but it said that Larry was up the creek because (1) there was a problem with one of his offspring and (2) Larry had not been truthful about this problem.
Now — we have a situation where a sr. pastor / apostle has not been truthful, his and has hidden the truth for nearly a decade in spite of continual pleas from his most trusted friends – and now that it’s become public, have we gotten a letter from the Ceej explaining his departure? Nope. This man, who removed someone from the pastorate for something far less is still in his office, still on the payroll, still standing in the very stead of God.
Where’s the integrity here? Who can stomach this? Who can, in good conscience, follow this man?
S.R.,
An interesting question. It seems no two leaders in SGM are ever treated equally. Perhaps it’s “All leaders are created equal, but some leaders are more equal than others.” It is perplexing.
P.D.
Silent Running:
In response to your September 9, 2010 at 9:28 pm comment, I would say that it appears that in the practice of primus inter pares, apparently some are more first among equals…or “firster.”
Joking aside, Harvey’s mentioning and re-affirmation of the concept of “first among equals” is another resurrected slap in the congregationalist/plebian’s face.
The whole message was in fact intended to be a thumb-squishes-bug event of Episcopalianism triumphing over Presbyterianism and Congregationalism (and I don’t care how often Harvey or these guys keep trying to copy-and-paste the word Presbyterian to describe “most” SGM polity practices; it’s like dressing up a female chacma baboon in a ballerina costume and calling her the Queen of England) while defending or downplaying acts by leaders that are questionable at least and deplorable at worst.
In my opinion, it was among the sorriest days of SGM’s public, in-your-face apologetics in action.
–pk
Dear Brothers and Sisters at KingsWay,
Remember you are lifted up in prayer….. hold onto the Truths the Lord
has revealed to you………take His courage to continue to lean in and hear Him
and follow His instructions. HE is being glorified. You are reflecting HIM…
We are walking in the Kingdom of God, and what you battle for counts
for eternity. Be encouraged!
Malachi 4:6–
“…..then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, and the Lord
gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before
Him for those who fear the Lord and who esteem His Name.”
Thank you Waters. Yes, amen! Take courage, KW brethren.
P.D.
Dave Harvey is an articulate thug. Dave is nothing but a CJ apologist and cult of personality worshipper, who uses Reformish sounding window dressing to make it all sound acceptable.
Memo to Dave Harvey: The naked truth is that the Emperor has no clothes and to quote one of my favorite post-hippie theologians
“And then I get on my knees, and pray……………………………
WE DON”T GET FOOLED AGAIN, no no……” -Peter Townsend and The Who
peace to you Dave-MM
Poet,
I’m gonna have that song running in my head for the next two days.
Thank you, I’m still laughing out loud.
Poet, that was beautiful.
OK, Poet, here goes…..
Clueless white girls in blue satin sashes.
Never allowed to date so they don’t know their heads from their (you fill in the rhyme.)
Every action you take is tied up with their strings….
These are a few of my least fav-or-ite things.
Men that think Rogane is a tool of the Devil
Always win debates because the field isn’t level.
Logic that makes you think you’re watching an episode of fringe
These are a few of my least favorite things.
Women who are taught to roll over and take it.
If they aren’t happy, just smile and fake it.
You are never good enough to be one of the “In’s”
These are a few of my least favorite things.
Babies who are left alone to cry forr hours ignored
Cause being self-centered parents will lead kids to the Lord
Beat them with glue sticks to make their bums sting.
These are a few of my least favorite things.
When a neuron sparks
When the truth stings
When I’m feeling saaaaad
I know I’m under bondage to man-given things
‘Cause God’s grace doesn’t make me feel so bad..
Bravo, DB!
P.D.
Oh, that was awesome, DB. You are Poet did an amazing job with that.
Poet & DB,
Thankful for your humor and talent!
We have a binder full of our own.
The church I now attend would really be banned… We all practice
HOWS
HANGING OUT WITH SINNERS…………….Showing them we love them and drawing them to the gospel table…………………
Funny
Isn’t that what Christ did?
POET–Holy cow.
Don’t know whether to laugh or cry. That was phenomenal! Great insights and even excellent meter! You are a genius!
So Long, Farewell (from sound of music)
There’s a sad sort of longing in the hearts of us all
But we’re wise sort of people, too
And all across the country, an absurd little man is popping in to say what to do
(coo-coo, coo-coo)
Coo-coo Regretfully, they tell us
Coo-coo And firmly compel us
To say what they might
And what to do
So long, farewell
Auf Wiedersehen, goodnight
I hate to go and leave this messy sight
So long, farewell
Auf Wiedersehen, adieu
Adieu (corruption)
To you (elitists)
And you (patriarchists)
and you (injustice) and you (animals that think they’re more equal than others) and you (who would beat babies with glue sticks…millstones)
and you (legends in your own minds that talk polity when the Bride of Christ is suffering because of your heavy handedness)
So long, farewell
Au revoir, Auf Weidersehen
I’d like to stay
And appeal using Matthew 18?
(CJ) yes?
(CJ) no!
So long, farewell
Auf Weidersehen, goodbye
I cry and weep but my membership
Was released so…
Goodbye
I’m glad to go
I cannot tell a lie
I flit, I float
I fleetly flee, I’m alive and finally free!!!
The sun has set so sad
This place is dry.
It’s time to change the place has gone awry,
Goodbye
Goodbye
Goodbye
Goodbye
BRAVO!!!! BRAVO!!!! BRAVO!!!!
Poet–fantastic poem!! Don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
So well done!
I just thought I’d stop by and see how the upper half live. Nice to see everyone is having a good time. It was so good to talk to you after the weekly celebration last week MB. Hope all is well as we continue to walk thru and pray through this time together. I enjoyed your reflections on this site. I hope I cleared up any confusion about the liar stuff. If not, lets talk s’more. As usual, the “facts” are flowing freely from the refuge well. As well as the grace filled, encouraging chatter from the contributors here. Wow. I was going to mention something about gossip and slander but y’all probably have enough nickles to alarm the treasury. So I’ll just leave with this bit of wisdom from 1 Corinthians 8—”Be careful however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.” Context and application are obvious for well learned folk such as yourselves. This blog is not sin. It is certainly a Christian liberty to voice your concerns on matters such as these. However, as I stated earlier, there are brothers and sisters in Christ whom are being incited to sin by your freedoms. Deny it. Justify it. Go ahead. But I have witnessed, first hand, the devastation caused by the words of godly men and women on this blog. Calling me a troll or a drive by or turd thrower isn’t going to change the truth of the matter, which is: Your exercise of Christian liberties is causing others to stumble. I will attend Kingsway tomorrow and witness the loss of friends from my church. Some have left for what you would consider the right reasons. And I can think of 14 dear friends that will be gone or are looking elsewhere as a direct result of this blog and others like it. How does it feel to be effective in what you are doing? They now see, or suspect they see, the evil that is SGM et al. So raise a glass in toast to your victory in getting others to see the “truth”. Or better yet, write witty poems or songs at our expense. OK, i’m going to bed now. I can’t wait to see the gracious, Christ like responses that I’ve grown so fond of from my friends here.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing:
In regard to September 11, 2010 at 7:21 pm:
Apologies your comment was released so late from moderation; honestly, I was at a memorial service for a relative, and that is the only reason it stayed in the moderation cue so long. I will respond, but the lateness of the hour prevents me from doing so tonight.
Once again, my apologies.
–pk
Wow. You need to lay all the credit for this one right at the feet of your godly leaders. Give credit where it is due.
Wouldn’t it be more appropriate for you to examine the folks making the news instead of betting your panties in a wad because someone is reporting the news?
To GNHB:
I am sorry that you are upset that your friends are leaving KWCC, but place the blame where it is due. I think all it takes to consider leaving is to have been at the Family Meeting or to watch the DVD and to realize that the incident of Gene throwing SW under the bus and being deceptive about it for 10 years is one in a series of events where, at best, poor judgment was used on his part…at worst, he was deceptive. The people here connect the dots back to the foundations (Shepherding Movement) and present structure (Episcopalian style polity) that lead leaders like Gene and others to do the things they do and the way they do it.
You see, the whole thing of SW being able to tell his story was not allowed for ten years. Ten years of BD literally begging Gene to allow the truth to be told. Gene in his admitted sin, would not allow it. (see the Family Meeting DVD)
Now we are into a new phase. It is not really about SW, but about three men that have known Gene the longest and closest than almost anyone else in the church…some of the only ones left in the church that really know him and have stuck with him for all this time. As a leader, Gene is held to a higher standard. When these men saw issues, they brought them to his attention. His continued denial despite the witness of two or three is very serious. The confession of his sin toward Steve was a breakthrough, but only short lived. Now there is an attempt to turn the tables and accuse SW of wrong-doing by the leaders with the bringing in of Peacemakers.Don’t be fooled. This was a decision by the leaders to bring in Peacemakers and SW was told of the decision after it had been made. And then Dave Harvey speaks about the “tyranny of the aggrieved party” in a veiled reference to SW in the message last week. Listen again and see the sense of accusation. Dave Harvey also said basically “agree with the polity or find another place to worship.”
My friend, (and I say that because even though I am not sure of who you are, but I think I know, and you are a friend), it is sad to see prople leave. It is hard to lose friends. I would hope that our unity and love for one another is not based on what church we attend, but on a deepening knowledge that we follow the same God and are saved by the death of the same man, Jesus Christ.
PS – I want to say to everyone else out there. If you have been prone to snarky remarks either on here or in person with someone that is “on the other side”, especially family members of those involved, please let’s control ourselves in those conversations or remarks and allow grace to fill our words. Thanks.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing (GNHB):
In re: September 11, 2010 at 7:21 pm, Looking Elsewhere (LE) has answered better than I ever could, particulalrly since LE is a member of KingsWay…so I don’t expect my response to be sufficient, and neither should you.
Your comment is also so loaded with bear traps designed to snap no matter what the response is, so I’m not falling for it.
One thing you won’t do, however, is lay the implosion that systemic SGM practices caused at my feet, or anyone else’s here.
I didn’t write the declaration from a vacuum; I used to think that SGM is going to reform, or your “children” will keep growing in population…that is, all of us good-timer, “upper half,” libertarian, disaffected, so-called-learned-folk, ungrace filled, gossiping, denying, justifying, stumbling block-ing, glass-raising toaster-ing, un-gracious, un-Christlike, drive-by-dislking, slandering, witty poets who write nasty songs and tear apart churches with words like “turd,” and ”troll,” accompanied by nickel analogies.
But I don’t think that anymore, because we never were your children.
–pk
GenderNeutralHumanBeing (GNHB)
In response to your latest comment, I would ask you why do you feel sharing the truth here is wrong? Are you saying that only partial truths are being posted? What part of the story has not been shared that might put Gene Emerson of Kingsway in a better light etc?
Maybe this is the case of Gene Emerson’s sin and Kingsway’s elders including Emerson lack of integrity causing the church’s demise?
SGM Leaders need to get use to their not being able to do things in vacuum and without people knowing about them including their questionable actions. In the past SGM Leaders could do what they wanted and people were afraid to let others know due to it being considered “gossip.” It is good that SGM Leaders no longer have this freedom.
Why not blame Dave Harvey for what he didn’t do or say last Sunday? If Harvey had included in his message that SGM Leadership had reviewed the situation and felt that it was correct for Gene Emerson to remain as Sr. Pastor he could have done quite a lot of damage control.
Even if he said that SGM Leadership was going to review the situation might have put people more at ease. That might have encouraged those on the fence to hang around till an opinion was given by SGM Leadership on the situation. Instead Harvey seems to imply that SGM Leadership had no responsibility to step in etc. He indicated that the elders including Gene Emerson as Sr. Pastor were the only authority etc. at Kingsway.
It was almost as if Harvey was walking the fence or even didn’t want SGM Leadership to really look into this situation since they might not like the actions they would have to do if they did a real examination.
In summary, Harvey could have said and done a lot to at least temporarily stop the exodus. IMO if he did what I indicate above it would have as much impact as these blogs have had on exposing the sin and hypocrisy at Kingsway.
Looking Elsewhere–the sadness of this portion of your excellent comment is evident: “My friend, (and I say that because even though I am not sure of who you are, but I think I know, and you are a friend), it is sad to see prople leave. It is hard to lose friends.”
The thing that SGMers don’t understand is this (not you, the culture at large): WE are the church, not you. WE corporate. All of US. YOU and I are the church. When someone leaves one gathering of believers to join another, you don’t have to shun them. Or not call them. Or not have them over. Or not have their kids over.
WE are all the Bride of Christ.
Just when I begin to be complacent or just plain tired of all that is SGM, I hear the hearts of those still in the midst of the struggle and my prayers are revived. Praying for you all at Kingsway and Metro.
Silent Running said:
September 9, 2010 at 9:28 pm
Back when Larry T was deleted, we received a letter explaining his departure. Wish I still had it so I could quote it verbatim, but it said that Larry was up the creek because (1) there was a problem with one of his offspring and (2) Larry had not been truthful about this problem.
I have copies of the various letters that were circulated, including Larry’s original letter that he supposedly wrote when he stepped down and PDI’s letter commenting on Larry Tomczac leaving PDI (now called SGM). This is what the PDI letter said about Tomczak:
“Larry stepped down from his position in the Atlanta church due to patterns of sinful behavior which, on the basis of Scripture, disqualified him from serving in ministry. (See attached letter Larry distributed). This discipline was necessary and unavoidable, yet redemptive in intent, and at the time fully supported by Larry.”
As Silent running said, it sure seems like a double standard. Didn’t Gene Emerson also display a pattern and thus should also be disqualified from leadership? It looks like SGM has changed their standards. If so, SGM should explain that otherwise Gene Emerson is disqualified as they indicate.
Steve240,
Could it be that Emerson is not presently stepping down because the
LAITY has brought forth grievances which require investigation due to
“patterns of sinful behavior” . Since SGM leadership view themselves as
the final authority on moral/Biblical standards for their own leadership
(elders, formerly titled as pastors)— they would not respond in humility
towards actually HEARING the congregants (THE Church).
Also, the ” 3 Couples” in Chesapeake, as laity, brought grievances and proven
patterns of “sinful behavior” against KB and BC. Gene Emerson came to town and promptly turned the tables to renounce the “3 Couples” as in sin etc etc.
KB then “relocates” to KingsWay to be “cared for” by Emerson. (???!!!???)
——-And now—-as FACTS are brought forth towards Emerson, he of course,
is repeating his own pattern of control and manipulation in his own church.
And he has full-reign to do so—otherwise, Harvey and Mahaney must acquiesce
to the TRUTH of the Laitys discerning grievances towards Emerson.
—Looks like SGM is clearly operating in a pattern of Pharisee control.
For The Neutral One…
I give up and I do surrender
Can’t compete with a gender blender
The liberty I take is all in good fun
At the expense of the web that’s now been spun
If three men of the body will not repent
In front of the church they would be sent
But when shepherds become the breakers
They get to bring in the Peacemakers
Please tell me why this is so
I would be happy to let it all go
But when the truth is still withheld
It is then that I feel the most compelled
KingsWay,
How fares “The Band of Brothers” who are confronting the sin issues and deflections of SGM leadership (elders, formerly known as pastors and
overseers, formerly know as apostles) ?? Is GE duplicating his ‘overseer’ (formerly known as apostle) actions in KingsWay?? (bring accusations of ‘sin’ against those who have exposed his and SGMs destructive ‘counsel’ to the Brethren) ??
Peacemakers— We are all watching to see how unbiased you will be in
this process. (Lotsa $ given to you by SGM). It will be interesting to see how you rightly divide the Word of God in regards to pastors who lie to and then threaten their church members with ‘church discipline’ and/or slander……..
(perhaps you have prepared for the KingsWay case by reading up on GE’s
manipulative actions in the Chesapeake Story—history is repeating itself).
The Poet asked: “Please tell me why this is so….
When shepherds become the breakers,
They get to bring in the ‘Peacemakers’ ” ????????????
Words Of Action,
I pray Lord that you would help guide those hearts affected by this. To forgive one another. I pray that they would confess their sin to you Lord. I pray that they would find the guidiance that they are seeking. I pray that they would be healed. I pray that none would wonder in doubt, but know in heart that they are saved by Christ alone. I pray that they would know You see all and in the kingdom of heaven true guidance will prevail.
Ebert P,
Welcome to the Refuge. Do you have friends or loved ones at Kingsway? All of us here join you in this beautiful prayer. Focusing on knowing God the Father and trusting in Christ alone for salvation is always a good thing to focus on, particularly when going through trials.
P.D.
I went to Kingsway in 2003, I moved in 2004 or about that time. My family did attend kingsway. Was really some great people who enriched my heart with the passion of christ. Plus all the friends that i did have there.. I didn’t look at them as friends, but as family. There was always a open door, a empty seat, and always a good message.
That’s awesome, Ebert.
R.T. said:
YOU and I are the church. When someone leaves one gathering of believers to join another, you don’t have to shun them. Or not call them. Or not have them over. Or not have their kids over.
WE are all the Bride of Christ. AMEN AMEN AMEN! I so agree.
Elbert: What a heart felt prayer for the family of God. I second that prayer!
KingsWay,
Are you awaiting the arrival of Peacemakers and the PM process ?
What has been defined as the ‘next steps’?
Perhaps the church leaders have asked you to desist from sharing news
on the ‘fuge. (?)
Band of Brothers…….Psalm 5 is brought in prayer on your behalf………
Hi Waters,
Just so you know, we have heard from the Band of Brothers at KingsWay recently. They are laying low but not laying down by any means. Plus they all have lives outside of this current debacle. It would appear the powers-that-be are using the “divide and conquer” (or excuse me, the meeting-with-you-individually) method of crowd control rather than facing the multitude with all their pesky questions. But rest assured, it isn’t over yet. Please, everyone continue to pray for them at KingsWay.
P.D.
PD,
Thankyou so much for letting us know their state. Indeed, having to battle
these issues AND continue in every day life requires the extra measure
of strength and tenacity……and keen discernment. Thankyou, Lord
for providing and being all that we need.
Hmmm…the old divide and conquer(‘meeting-with-you-individually) tactic.
This is the common SGM leadership m.o. and I pray the BOB willnot allow it.
Stand together, BOB….you are fighting duplicity and keeping “the main thing
the main thing” (TRUTH and integrity of Gods Word) in the Light.
Praying……….
Can anyone tell me the specific reason for Peacemakers coming in. I have seen people allude on this blog that the main reason for Peacemakers was to deal with SW’s “bitterness” or something to that affect from what Gene Emerson did to him vs. looking into Gene Emerson’s original sin including if Emerson should remain as a leader due to his sin.
Can someone comment on this?
I’ve read the letter from Gene to the sheeple.
Peacemakers is coming in because BD et al continue to push the issue, Gene has finally said that the BD stuff is not all true, and that there will be no more public meetings or discussion.
Here is the applicable portion of the email sent to the entire crowd:
First, it appears as if we have reached an impasse. It has been my desire to use this process to focus on areas where I have sinned or need to grow. I trust I will be a better pastor as a result of the correction I’ve received. And I’m deeply grateful for your forgiveness. You’ve displayed the Savior’s love to me in my sin. Because of my desire to keep attention on me, I have been reluctant to communicate that I have significant disagreements on certain different points highlighted in the recent emails you may have received from XXX and XXX. Honestly, I’ve been reluctant to voice these disagreements so as not to appear to minimize my sin or to appear defensive. It didn’t seem wise to communicate these disagreements in the previous public contexts. Here’s how we think we should proceed with humility and wisdom.
It seems to me that Scripture commends (and experience confirms) that personal conversation and interaction is better than public discussion. That’s where conversation can take place and understanding can be sought. It seems evident to us that over the past year, our private conversations have been much more fruitful and beneficial to all. So it is our intent to aggressively continue pursuing conversation and perspective from anyone who will speak with us.
Second, and in light of this impasse, we think it wise to pursue a mediator. Years ago, we anticipated moments of conflict and, therefore, taught and adopted the relational commitments. It seemed wise to make provision ahead of time so that if a mediator ever became necessary, a process would already be in place. We don’t agree that these commitments should be set aside at the very time when they are most needed.
A mediator provides a number of practical advantages. A mediator is a neutral party equipped to objectively weigh the concerns of all involved and guide us in a process of reconciliation. We specified Peacemaker Ministries in our relational commitments because the existence and viability of their Chri stian conciliation hinges on their proven objectivity. A professional mediator also ensures a high degree of thoroughness and expediency in the reconciliation process, laying a strong foundation for building unity in a timely fashion.
I’m thinking SGM could save a ton of money by just allowing the congregation to elect elders.
Then, throw the elders and the pastors into a room with a couple of BIBLES with little yellow Post-its at verses from Matthew.
Wait til the screaming stops.
Let them out.
Carry on.
GE said/wrote: “It seems to me that Scripture commends (and experience confirms) that personal conversation and interaction is better than public discussion.”
That is, if you skip the whole part about the Church in the New Testament. Because It seems to me that Scripture commends (and experience definitely confirms) that public conversation and interaction is how the Church was built and maintained by God through Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Of course if you skip all of that troublesome public discussion that included public conversation and public interaction, you end up with a New Testament that contains two things: diddly and squat.
But that’s just how it seems to me.
The gates of hell did not and will not prevail against the church, and neither will the divide and conquer tactics.
Nice try, though.
–pk
To me, the weirdest thing, the MOST BIZARRE THING, was that there was not ONE verse included in this letter.
How can you simply blithely say, “Scripture commends (and experience confirms) that personal conversation and interaction is better than public discussion…”
Chapter and verse me, please.
I can bury you on this one, using only the Word of God.
Isn’t this at the heart of SGM–too much talk about “biblical,” too little corporate examination of BIBLE?
Reading the letter from GE and sputtering! Sputtering!
It seems to me that Scripture commends (and experience confirms) that personal conversation and interaction is better than public discussion.
Wait, let me run out and grab a fresh pair of scissors so I can come back home and cut out of my bible every time the bible calls for public discussions… I’ll start with Matthew.
It seems evident to us that over the past year, our private conversations have been much more fruitful and beneficial to all.
So why did you have a public meeting a few months ago? So why all the other public meetings you’ve ever had? So when the people FINALLY found out about your deception it was in a private conversation you had with them? Or was it a PUBLIC meeting? I don’t see how ANY of them could have found out about the way they had been mislead all these years if you hadn’t had it in a public meeting. Unless you plan on going door to door over the next year telling every single person all the true and whole details of things. Yep, ain’t gonna happen, is it? Control control control. That’s what this is all about.
So it is our intent to aggressively continue pursuing conversation and perspective from anyone who will speak with us.
There are plenty of us here on the sgm refuge who would be happy to have conversation and give you our perspectives, right here. you open to it? Remember, you said you’d be aggressive about it and pursue it. We’re waiting. PK, he has an open invite to come converse here, doesn’t he?
Because of my desire to keep attention on me,
Oh, if that isn’t a word that was truly spoken! Tragic, but true. Wouldn’t it be lovely if it were kept on Christ?
Honestly, I’ve been reluctant to voice these disagreements so as not to appear to minimize my sin or to appear defensive.
Seriously? If this is true, you’ve made decisions based on trying to protect your APPEARANCE INSTEAD of bringing TRUTH to your people?! (Think about it, isn’t that the same sin you’ve been committing all these years in regard to SW? Appearance more important than TRUTH?!?!) How can you make the above statement and NOT see the abundance of your sin in it? How can you say that, have OTHERS see it and not have one of them call you out on it and say that NOTHING has changed from a year ago?
I do hope that in these private conversations Gene Emerson has with regular members of Kingsway he can explain why he feels it is right to remain as an elder when scripturally it appears his actions have disqualified him from being a pastor.
Thanks everyone for answering my questions about Peacemakers. It will be interesting to see how objective Peacemakers is on this. Also will be interesting to see if Peacemakers makes a recommendation that the Kingsway elders don’t like (such as recommending Emerson step down) if Kingsway follows that recommendation. It wouldn’t be the first time that SGM didn’t follow a Kingsway recommendation.
As someone else suggested, maybe it would be a good time to withhold your tithes. If you don’t feel that you can do that, at least go down to the 10 percent vs. the 15 percent Gene Emerson likes to push. Maybe if Kingsway sees not as much money coming in that will get their attention?
I would be real careful about asking the dear leaders to cite Bible verses, when I did that, I was told that I was combattive and not able to be taught.
Eventually I was dismembered and everything.
Just Saying.
Dismembered!!! LOL!!
God forbid a pastor should cite Bible verses to support his pontifications.
How unreasonable, DB. Get with the plan.
Yes Steve, With hold the tithe.
Two words to justify that.
Widows.
Orphans.
I meant to say re-direct your tithes to Widows & Orphans.
hope I made that clear.
I think I remember something about in the Peacemaker process, that the matters discussed can’t be discussed with anyone else when everyone is finished with the whole process.
So, if SGM doesn’t agree with their suggestions they don’t have to follow them (since they haven’t in the past). Do the regular members have that same option?
I REALLY hope that BD and the other B bring along their own mediator, since isn’t Peacemakers (and I do respect that organization…), but wouldn’t Peacemakers be getting paid for their work….from KW?
Why don’t the two mediators just sit down and duke it out. Maybe best of three on a Texas Hold’em Poker game?
I was scratching my little yellow head on the comment about private discussions verses public meetings being in the Bible. Where, pray tell?
There is also the matter of the writer of this letter calling our Lord “the Savior”. Why do these guys distance themselves from the Son of God by not using His given name? It seems to have become standard verbage in SGM. Guess what? This Canary loves JESUS. JESUS, JESUS, JESUS!!! There is great power in that name. We are to do everything in His name. There is little power in SGM, except the power of control held by the pastors…er, excuse me…the “elders”. And I at least can provide a verse for my point of view. There are actually 30 verses in the NT speaking about the name of Jesus from Acts to Revelations. I will site one:
Colossians 3:17
“And whatever you do [no matter what it is] in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus and in [dependence upon] His Person, giving praise to God the Father through Him.” Amplified
Tell me, am I being petty by pointing this out?
Ellie said:
“I think I remember something about in the Peacemaker process, that the matters discussed can’t be discussed with anyone else when everyone is finished with the whole process.
So, if SGM doesn’t agree with their suggestions they don’t have to follow them (since they haven’t in the past). Do the regular members have that same option?”
That is what I recall also that if you agree to the Peacemaker process then you can’t discuss this with others even after the decision.
That policy would work as a “brilliant” strategy for Gene Emerson. Bring in Peacemakers and have all parties sign their “nondisclosure” agreement. This would then silence all parties including SW. Then go through the process and choose to not abide by the Peacemaker’s recommendations.
Sadly all of these actions would be hard for people to hear about since the parties involved signed a “nondisclosure” agreement. Even if Gene Emerson refused to follow Peacemakers recommendations it would all be under silence. What a way for Gene Emerson to try and quiet things down etc. It works as well if not better than how SGM”s defines ”gossip” and “slander” to keep regular members in the dark and fearful of questioning.
I hear ya, Canary —- it is strange ….there is little intimacy/relationship with their constant address of “the Savior”. He IS our Savior……and His Name is Jesus.
The mediator process provided by Peacemakers has many times proven to bring restoration and reconciliation between Christians. However, this whole KingsWay situation is not just about reconciling and bringing peace. Rather, the exposure of leaderships grievous sin against a member….and the web of spinning and control SGM polity perpetuates in the unGodly control and manipulation of the congregants. How would Peacemakers address these issues—especially in an unbiased manner due to their close relationship with sgm ministries and CJM?
In Chesapeake, KB and BC sought to meet individually with the 3 Couples and Esther. They all soon realized they were being interrogated and bullied and even threatened (with church discipline if no compliance to their edicts). Therefore, they made the collective decision to NOT meet with the pastors on an individual basis. Peacemakers must realize and DISCERN the duplicitous twisting of words utilized by (some) sgm pastors and leaders. Both in Chesapeake and KingsWay, repected congregants have brought scriptural outlines for their pastors whose actions would disqualify them from the position of pastoring. So very serious.
Though not taken seriously by the pastors. Instead: deflection; accusation of others ‘sins’; and mediators. GE and KB continuing in their pattern (of ruling in the very stead of God).
Band of Brothers, donot “hide your light under a basket–no!” —When we turn on a light switch, the entire room is flooded with light–In Gods Light, every crevice and shadowed place is exposed — be witnesses, together, of His revealing Light —that no deception may hide in a shadowed corner. Praying……..
Canary,
You have touched upon the BIG RED FLASHING LIGHT that is an indicator of why some here (I’m one of ‘em) can say SGM looks like a CULT.
THE NAME OF JESUS.
HIS NAME IS JESUS!
JESUS!
JESUS IS LORD!
Men of KW,
I long for an opportunity to (or hear of another doing same) look one of these guys in the eye, and require them to say “Jesus is LORD.”
Don’t give ‘em a pass if they modify that phrase.
If they can’t do it, or refuse to do it, they are counterfeits, in the employ of Satan.
We don’t judge men’s hearts, or motives, but we can judge their FRUIT.
Look at the Fruit.
Gene’s fruit, so far, appears rotten.
This is Spiritual Warfare.
Rise Up O Men Of God!
There’s a paragraph in the letter prior to what RT posted that says:
“I think we understand why some are advocating public meetings and gatherings to have everyone together for Q&A. There certainly can be benefits to this approach in certain situations. Having already taken that approach, it is our assessment that this did not prove helpful. Actually, it seemed to add to the confusion provoking speculation and sadly, it appears, even suspicion. At this time, it doesn’t appear wise to continue with this approach. Here is our thinking and why.”
The meeting did not “prove helpful”? Not helpful to WHO? I believe it was tremendously helpful to those who attended and needed some questions answered. I hope it was tremendously helpful to SW and his family. And yes — it probably produced some speculation and suspicion, because folks were blindsided by this information, and needed some time to think in order to figure out what questions to ask. Those questions need to be answered, and everyone needs to hear the same answers to those questions. Speculation and suspicion can be valuable tools. Wish we’d had a little more of those back when we trusted someone who turned out to be a repeat offender with a publicly documented criminal history.
Who is the ambiguous ”we” and ”our” in phrases like “our assessment”, “we understand”, and “our thinking”? Sounds like a presidential candidate trying to avoid the use of I, me and my. The letter is signed only by GE.
People are watching closely. They’re praying, thinking, and evaluating. This letter is another item that reveals the thinking of those who portend to stand in the stead of God. The congregation, valuable only to SGM as giving units, is being told, “Na-na-na-na-na. You can’t call me on the carpet, so there.”
Every sentence of this note raises questions. It says “it appears that we have reached in impasse” without ever saying what the impasse is. Sounds to me that if there’s an impasse, then mediation isn’t going to work — you’ll have to right into arbitration. Mediation takes the desires of both parties and works on a solution that both can swallow. In this situation, the clergy holds the upper hand, because of polity. There’s no equal footing.
This situation has revealed the polity problem to the average pew sitter.
There are flaws in every system. No matter which polity system is used, there’ll be problems. The litmus test is the character and integrity of leadership, regardless of polity. In my view, this particular system is the hothouse where egotism is nourished and thrives.
True, Defender….this IS spiritual warfare……
Steve240, Excellent points when you stated:
“……That is what I recall also, that if you agree to the Peacemakers process, then you can’t discuss this with others even after the decision.——-
THAT POLICY WOULD BE A BRILLIANT STRATEGY FOR GE. BRING IN PEACEMAKERS AND HAVE ALL PARTIES SIGN THEIR ‘NON DISCLOSURE’ AGREEMENT. THIS WOULD THEN SILENCE ALL PARTIES INCLUDING SW. THEN GO THROUGH THE PROCESS AND CHOOSE TO NOT ABIDE BY THE PEACEMAKERS RECOMMENDATIONS………….THIS WOULD WORK AS WELL IF NOT BETTER THAN HOW SGM DEFINES ‘GOSSIP’ AND ‘SLANDER’ TO KEEP REGULAR MEMBERS IN THE DARK AND FEARFUL OF QUESTIONING.”
Peacemakers must realize GE and SGM will USE them to justify their own agenda and keep their status intact of ruling “in the very stead of God.”
Peacemakers, we pray you have mediators who are gifted with the gift of spiritual discernment. For you are entering a realm of smokescreens,deflections, twisted words and Biblical phrases … all postured with the trump- all pastoral declarations of: * being the worst sinner they know…** all we humans are flawed
***deeply grateful for leaders pointing out their sin……………etc etc etc etc etc.
Peacemakers, we pray you will seriously heed this warning of the type of “conflict resolution” you are facing. Remember Noels case??? All is not what it appears to be in SGM. Ephesians 6: 10-17, Peacemakers, Ephesians 6:10-17
Square Peg—- EXCELLENT POINTS AND TRUTHS ON YOUR POST @ 12:22 am
Square Peg said: “This situation has revealed the polity problem to the average pew sitter. There are flaws in every system. No matter which polity system is used, there’ll be problems. The litmus test is the character and integrity of leadership, regardless of polity. In my view, this particular system is the hothouse where egotism is nourished and thrives.”
Outstanding comment, Square Peg.
I’ve received many an email and observation that I am barking up the wrong tree with polity, because you can have a good polity with bad leaders, and have a bad polity with good leaders, etc (nobody ever seems to think you can have a bad polity + bad leaders). My response is exactly Square Peg’s above: “In my view, this particular system is the hothouse where egotism is nourished and thrives.” (emphasis PK’s)
Bad polity can produce a system that tends to open the door for wolves to come into the fold, plain and simple, end of story. Bad leadership can aggravate this scenario. Transversely, good polity can produce a system that tends to close the door from wolves that attempt to come into the fold. Bad leadership can try to frustrate this scenario, but are usually found out and dealt with much sooner.
–pk
PK and Square Peg, your posts tie in an important factor:
PK–”Bad polity can produce a system that tends to open the door for wolves to come into the fold.”
Square Peg–”…Specualtion and suspicion can be valuable tools. Wish we’d had a little of that back when we trusted someone who turned out to be a repeat offender with a publically documented criminal history.”
Band of Brothers, you are also battling for Truth in regards to our own Brethren who have been wounded,mauled and scarred by wolves that have been LET IN by SGM pastors. How has this consistently happened?? Perhaps when GE,CJM,JH DH,JP view themselves in the high and lofty place as standing in the very stead of God—they no longer rely FIRSTLY on the discerning ‘checks’ and leadings Holy Spirit provide to protect His Own. As Square Peg stated “In my view, this particular system (sgm polity) is the hothouse where egotism is nourished and thrives.” ———-And it is at the expense of the very Bride of Jesus Christ.
Oh for heaven’s sake, Defender! Do you honestly believe that people who attend sg churches are unable to say the words “Jesus is Lord”? Yeah, yeah, I know all about CJ’s overuse of the word “Savior” with reference to Jesus, but its a long walk from there to the belief that sgm-ers’ are employed by Satan and therefore unable to declare that Jesus is Lord. Although I tend to agree with at least some of the criticisms of sgm, I am repulsed by how quickly these discussions about sgm’s shortcomings devolve into harsh judgements about the quality of the faith of YOUR fellow believers. Try to remember that even though some of us attend sgm churches, we love Jesus too. We desire to serve and honor Jesus too. We cast our anxiety upon the Lord, too. We look to Jesus as our healer, deliverer and friend too. As far as I know my fellow church members ARE able to utter the words “Jesus is Lord” without their heads exploding.
I really wish that some of you would reign yourselves in at least a little bit.
Hey Missus,
I’m talking about the SGM LEADERS here.
Not the “attenders”.
Jesus Himself said of the Pharisees (LEADERS of Israel), that their father is Satan. To use your conclusion, then all of Israel’s father is Satan.
NOT SO.
The LEADERS were the ones that were doing the will of Satan.
We are talking about LEADERS who are leading people astray, or hiding the truth from those they lead. One word comes to mind here, “Millstone”.
Either way you cut it, if you are not FOR JESUS, you are against Him.
Jesus is the TRUTH, SGM leaders are promoting lies and deceit.
By Jesus’ words, are SGM Leaders for Jesus, or against Him?
Why do they not use His Name (above all names?)
There is NO other name by which men must be saved.
It’s a Spiritual Battle. The enemy KNOWS the POWER in that name above all names, which is JESUS. The enemy (Satan) does not want that name proclaimed, he is successful when SGM Leaders do not proclaim that name. Therefore they are (perhaps unwittingly) in the employ of Satan when they substitute the name of Jesus with “savior”.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Test the SPIRITS.
That is what I am saying.
TEST THE SPIRITS of the LEADERS.
If they can proclaim “Jesus is LORD” then we have a whole new problem of a BROTHER in sin.
If so, may I suggest Mt 18?
What ever their errors and faults, to assert that sg leaders are unable to call Jesus Lord and are in the employ of Satan is just foolishness and devalues legitimate criticism of their actions. I’ve known of church leaders who have done way worse than anything any sg leader has been accused of doing, but I would stop short of asserting that they are not believers, in the employ of Satan and/or unable to call Jesus Lord. How do you know that God’s heart toward CJ, GE or any other pastor sg or not is to consider them Pharisees and in the employ of Satan? Are you God?
Why can we not just assume that we are all brothers and sisters together and TRUST God to work in all our hearts?
There is an “inconvenient truth” – to coin a phrase – that there are documented incidents of SGM leaders telling lies to their congregations and promoting deceptions in their leading.
I have examples: Gene maintaining a secret job-killing grudge against SW is the one that is pertinent here.
“Irv” – a fellow refugee and former Sr. Pastor in SGM regrets going along with the lies that a Shank told him to tell the congregation as to why he was fired/stepping down.
in so. Denver a pastor was supposedly no longer gifted as a sr. pastor. If that isn’t a shameful lie I don’t know what is, altho perhaps the larger deception was in saying he was gifted, initially. I’m not going there, but he was in fact fired, not somehow de-gifted.
There are others, such as whatever happened to B. Detwiler, and many here probably have their own list off the tops of their heads but the fact remains that sgm condones or even promotes lies and deceptions in their leadership style.
Hey Defender! Big hugs to all your family!
Interesting what you say. If I sense a particularly stubborn spirit of the enemy rise up in a situation, I say, “Jesus Christ is the Son of God”. This makes the enemy flee like fire is at his heels. Such simple words yet such a powerful statement!
You are right – we have to read the fruit. That’s what Mr. Canary always says, too.
If I might “defend” the Defenders: I know them personally. They are wonderfully loving people, filled with God’s Spirit. Having said that, I surmise they are not suggesting that all of SGM, members included, cannot say “Jesus” because they are from Satan. I believe they are reflecting on the ACTIONS of some leaders, namely, deception. Defender did not say all SGM is unable to use the name of Jesus. He and I were questioning why some leaders use the remote label of “the Savior” when speaking of Jesus. The verse he uses is excellent. It is only a pattern we are noticing, not a judgment on anyone’s heart. Can distancing one’s self from using Jesus name, where love and power exist, be a result of some of these leaders’ walking in deception?
1 John 2:21
I write to you not because you are ignorant and do not perceive and know the Truth, but because you do perceive and know it, and [know positively] that nothing false (no deception, no lie) is of the truth.
1 John 1:6
[So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents].
Amplified Version
Thanks Canary!
You just saved the blog from my “several pages” of diatribe, including tons of scripture.
I had to take a break to let my keyboard cool off.
Truth is, the Missus’ fallacious arguments are not worth answering, but I did enjoy my research in preparing my response. I’ll keep it in a document so I can use parts of it in the future when needed.
JESUS IS LORD!
(Ah, I feel much better now.)
D
Wartburg Watch is looking into Peacemakers. Don’t forget to read the comments. There is important information there.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/20.....#more-3135
http://thewartburgwatch.com/20...../#comments
AND ANOTHER THING….
If God calls people to positions in the church, like apostle, (down, boy, sit! Good dog! I am NOT agreeing it is a position in the current church…debate that later, y’all.), anyway, if God calls people to positions, like apostle, how in the world can it be that all of a sudden GE is not an apostle?
This is like kindergarten.
Give it up, mature believers. Get the heck out of there and come play with the grown-ups.
Canary and Defender,
It would be one thing if whatever leaders you are firing bullets into never used the name of “Jesus”, but the fact is that they do. All of this ridiculous conjecture about whether or not CJ or GE can utter the words “Jesus is Lord” without their heads exploding is totally beside the point and diminishes your legitimate criticisms of these instances of lying which are rightly to be exposed and censured by the body.
This is the point that I am endeavoring to make: sensible and thoughtful criticisms of sg are welcome and helpful and move the ball forward. Crazy conspiracy theories and idle speculation about whether or not these men are actually fellow believers or in the employ of Satan make it much easier to dismiss.
Okay, now that everyone has made their point, can we give this specific topic a rest for a while and leave this thread open for discussion on the wider matters of KingsWay?
Much appreciated in advance.
–pk
Defender, cool your jets, my friend. Words are being put in our mouths and our intentions are being misunderstood (deliberately?). Let’s not waste anymore time in trying to explain.
Okee-doke, PK. Moving on.
Moving on, PK. Thanks for letting me make my point.
What has happened with the laity of KCC meeting together?
Have the men there deliberated on whether or not to stay in SGM?
Thank you Wartburg Watch for the investigative reporting on Peacemakers!
Thanks PK, for helping us keep the main thing the main thing. The names of Jesus are many and wonderful –I’m not sure that someone’s choice of which one to use at any given time is a litmus test for determining their salvation. Often, there are simply cultural habits that come into play. As far as Kingsway goes, or all of SGM, or throughout Christianity, if someone claims to be a Christian, I will take them at their word regardless of which name they use when they call upon Jesus. If I don’t, then I am guilty of doing the very same thing to them that was done to SW, et al, at Kingsway, by labeling them with some kind of unmeasureable sin, and guilty of the SGM catchphrase, “questioning their salvation.”
As a former KW’er on the outside looking in, I’m trying to look at this situation with a heart of love and an objective eye. Here’s my summation of the situation:
1. SW obeyed his employers by going to Roanoke to plant the church even though he did not feel equipped or called, then somehow was not able to carry out his duties, and was fired from his job as an SGM pastor.
2. GE called a Family Meeting, in which he said, in effect, that SW had abandoned his post, and was guilty of the sins of pride and unbelief. GE did not mention that SW had gone under duress.
3. SW returned to Kingsway and served faithfully in unpaid low-profile positions as a regular member of the church for the next 9 years, suffering the loss of his ministry job and damage to his reputation, after having been publicly disgraced when he was not there to defend himself, and further damaged by being forbidden to tell the truth of the situation to anyone.
4. Unbeknownst to the church, two long-time leaders and historically dear friends of GE appealed to him repeatedly over a nine-year period to reveal the whole truth about the situation to the congregation at large in order to restore SW’s reputation.
5. GE refused, for 9 years, to do any such thing.
6. Over the past year or so, GE began to entertain the idea of revealing the truth.
7. A family meeting was announced. Subject of family meeting was not revealed.
8. SW’s defenders asked GE for a time of questions/answers as part of the meeting.
9. GE apparently said there would be no questions/answers.
10. SW’s defenders then said they would not agree to a family meeting if there was not time for questioning. A pastor stated they would allow questions if they were written out and given to them prior to the meeting.
11. SW’s defenders said “no questions, no meeting.”
12. Family meeting was tabled indefinitely.
13. A week or so later, GE agreed to questions from congregation.
14. Family meeting was held. SW was exonerated. GE admitted sin. Church was shell-shocked. Congregation asked questions. Members called for restitution. Members asked if GE planned to resign. Meeting over.
15. Mickey C came to town and preached on Unity, exhorting the congregation to unite.
16. GE met with care group leaders and wives. Said there’ll be a letter sent out. CGL’s did not accept the letter idea, and called for more family meetings so that everyone will hear the same questions and same answers.. GE apparently agreed and said there would be more family meetings.
16. Dave Harvey came to town and preached on polity. Basically told the congregation to sit down and shut up, that in SGM’s polity, they have no authority and no voice.
17. GE changed his mind about family meetings, and sent email to church members and said there would be no more family meetings, says they are at an impasse, and will call in Peacemakers. The impasse was not defined. No date was given for calling in Peacemakers. No information was given to explain exactly how Peacemakers will proceed with mediation.
18. At least one CGL sent email to his group saying he supports SGM polity, that the leaders have always sought counsel.
19. Many members have left the church. Some are waiting to see how it plays out. Some are committed to staying and seeing it through.
The members of Kingsway now have to decide
1. If they can continue being part of a church that does not honor the input of the congregation either through its polity or by its attitude; a church that adheres to a form of government that has no checks and balances; and an organization that has re-erected the dividing wall between clergy and laity that was torn down by the reformers they claim to follow.
2. If they can continue to follow / support financially / listen to the sermons of a leader who admits to continuing in a grievous sin against a fellow pastor for nine years, who admits to having ignored and dismissed the advice of the guys he himself appointed as his “leadership team”, yet continues to claim authority and continues to fill the pulpit at will.
Can the members remain there in good conscience? If it were me, I couldn’t do it. I’d have to leave, even if I wanted to preserve the unity of fellowship, I don’t believe I could continue to be part of something that veered so far from what I perceived as its original intent.
Where is forgiveness in all of this? The people of KW are kind, loving, and forgiving. I believe that FORGIVENESS of GE is not an issue. I believe that ACCEPTANCE of GE’s continued pastoral authority IS an issue, because again — in SGM, pastoral AUTHORITY is a cornerstone of the polity. Many members, I think, have a high view of the office of pastor, but it is an honor and admiration that they voluntarily & lovingly bestow, not a required subservience to an authoritarian dictatorship that is demanded.
It is a sad situation, and a matter of fervent prayer for those within, those without. Guide us, o, Thou Great Jehovah. Amen.
Square Peg:
Good comments regarding the Name(s) of Christ.
Regarding your thoughts on KingsWay: heart-rending, but necessary words.
I cannot be the conscience of those believers at KingsWay, but I can pray for every single one of them.
PD and I are always praying.
–pk
Answering questions is something that SGM leaders avoid at all costs, regardless of evidence presented that clearly begs further investigation.
They just change the rule book to suit themselves.
What happened at KingsWay is grievous, but there are other SGM members who would be shocked to know the past actions of their staff.
Square Peg,
Thankyou for your very clear summation of these events. To see it written out — is both sobering and alarming.
Point #3…that “SW was publically disgraced when he was not there to defend himself, and furthere damaged by being forbidden to tell the TRUTH of the situation to anyone.”— THIS is what Dave Harvey and Mickey C and Gene Emerson and CJ Mahaney and SGM and SGM Polity are defending!!! They are defending the ‘right’ of a pastor to hold a lie against a fellow Christian, knowingly damaging his Christian reputation. And GE REFUSING TRUTH for a fellow Christian. Saints, defending lies is the polar opposite of the words of Jesus declaring “IAM the way, the Truth and the Life.
Point #6- Interesting that GE began to entertain the idea of revealing the truth over the past year or so. GE, could that be because horriffiicly serious reports concerning your pastoring were read by CJM on the Gburg hill? Or……was there just a sudden epiphany that you would grant the truth to be told?? I wonder…….
Keep praying, KingsWay— you are actually battling for the defense of Truth in the very ‘house’ of God, the KingsWay Church.
Excellent comment, Square Peg.
My concern is the same as it has been for 20 years. Will the leaders allow the Holy Spirit to take them all the way to the dregs on these issues? Will they sit still long enough to take a good, hard, historical as well as Scriptural look at their polity? I can be just as upbeat and hopeful as any here, until I see in Square Peg’s timeline of events that shortly, oh so shortly, after repentance of some sort by a particular SGM leaders, other SGM big dogs come in to preach unity or polity all over again. In Square Peg’s account at Kingsway, we see Dave and Mickey come in. At Metro we see another fellow coming in. Seems like there is a pattern of dealing with these situations like this: “okay, so and so pastor screwed up, but our polity is still right, and we are going to make sure you know it.” If that is the case, the beat will go on.
They need a root canal, but are settling for a superficial cleaning. That’s my concern.
Square Peg
Thanks for your summary of the events that happened at SGM Kingsway.
I have posted before that I just don’t understand why it isn’t clear that scripturally Gene Emerson needs to step down. His actions disqualified him from being an elder/pastor. There must be something that causes top SGM Leaders from pushing for Emerson to step down such as him having some insider information they don’t want Emerson to possibly share.
That is something to hear about all of the people leaving Kingsway. My thought is that is Gene Emerson really cared about Kingsway more than he does about his position as Sr. pastor he would step down voluntarily to stop the loss of members that is happening at Kngsway. Apparently Emerson cares more about his job as pastor vs. Kingsway Church.
On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if leaders of various SGM Churches almost welcome exodus of people like this as a necessary “pruning.” When something like this happens the people that question and who don’t blindly submit to whatever leadership decides leave. Then most of the people that remain are those that don’t question and give more of a blind allegiance. Thus though painful for the local SGM Church and its reduction of income may eventually benefit them.
Steve 240 said: “On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if leaders of various SGM Churches almost welcome exodus of people like this as a necessary ‘pruning.’”
Steve, you’ve hit a nerve here (and it’s not one of disagreement with you…quite the opposite).
I think this is exactly what takes place, due in large part to the business-model mentality (we’ve heard Jim refer to SGM churches as the “local franchise,” and you better believe it). I worked retail for years, and I used to dread Regional Managers coming into town, and their impatient review of my schedules (I was the store manager, or area manager, most often). The RMs had no understanding or even a remote clue as to why I made so many schedule accomodations to employees, and these RMs would quickly get impatient, and with one fell statement (along the lines of “this crew needs to be turned over”), I found myself having to fire employees for the stupidest and most menial infractions garnered from a three-inch thick corporate employee handbook. When I was younger and stupider, I bought this line of crap to protect my job. When I was a child, I behaved like a child.
After my last area manager job, where I had to fight and scratch and claw and yell to help people keep their employment, I promised myself I would never do that to another person ever again or for another person again.
What is sick and disgusting is when I see this identical behavior practiced by church leadership. It is the ultimate indicator and giveaway of their attitude toward the congegration and even leaders under them: cattle that will either advance company goals, or slaughtered and piece-mealed out if they get in the way. I don’t care how much one tries to mangle the words of Scripture and cherry-pick verses out of context from Proverbs…this type of behavior and leadership is not only alien to Scripture, but it is condemned by it. This is in the vein of sending a man off to war to be accidentally (whoops!) killed to cover your sin and to conveniently help yourself to what was his.
Maybe GE’s removal would cause more than one man in the upper tier to have to eat crow and repent before a lot of people; but I am with the consensus here that the longer this takes, the more KW suffers and pays for it.
–pk
Steve 240 and PK, I am in full agreement with you both. Steve 240 said: “On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if leaders of various SGM Churches almost welcome exodus of people like this as a necessary ‘pruning.’” Over and over we see history repeating itself. SGM actually prefers, no this is stronger than prefers, they want people who disagree to leave and in fact, they encourage you to leave. That is exactly what happened in Chesapeake. The leadership made it very clear to the 3 couples (within 5 -10 minutes of the 1st meeting with Keith, he suggested that they find a new church) and to everyone else who disagreed with the leaders that they should go. Many did leave SGC and those who stayed are those who are in complete submission to SGM, who have chosen to walk with blinders on and have chosen to ignore everything that was exposed. It is quite amazing to see those who are professing Jesus as their Savior to choose to walk in blindness, to turn a deaf ear from the cries of the abused, and to continue to walk in deception. It is true that each one had a choice to make and many made a choice to stay in the ”secure” confines of their SGM church rather than to trust God and walk in freedom.
As those leave who disagree, SGM’s control and power actually increases even though for the short term, their finances may suffer. The congregation is encouraged to dig deeper which they willing do, as they walk through the lean times.
Not to mention that pride that one feels when others “fall away from their local church” and you are the “loyal one” who was willing to stay and stick it out. It sucks you in even closer to your pastor because surely YOU’RE not going to be like those who do not endure. Oh sheesh, the pride so many of us carried around in our silly little hearts.
Stunned:
Ouch.
Kick in the gut.
But folks HAVE to hear that.
–pk
Great comments. I’ve been missing out by not being here for a while.
I’ve been tending to the rest of life… those parts that sadly get ignored when one becomes deeply involved in a singular event. I don’t say that to slight this or any other part of our lives. I think that each of you know what I mean…
So the question was asked, what’s happening with the “Band of Brothers.” ( What a name and it includes all of those couragious sisters that stand as well. )
Everyone is awaiting PeaceMakers. That’s not to say that nothing else is going on but in the absence of any possible family meeting, this is the next step. No date has been given for PM’s arrival. I guess we will all find out soon. This all came about from a covenant that was signed by the members and leadership back in 2006. The members, at that time, agreed to settle any disputes in this manner. I wasn’t present back then and I don’t think that it should apply now, not to this situation. I get the deceived views that are being used to support this process but simply put it’s WRONG and poor interpretation of Scripture at best.
Let me clarify something, when I say that we are, as a church, awaiting PM, I am not saying that nothing else is occuring. There are many (not just BD, BM, SW) who are continually appealing to the pastors to continue with public meetings and the process of Matthew 18. This continues to be pushed aside however we persevere.
There has been encouraging news otherwise. A gathering of families will be taking place this week for a time of fellowship, food, and worship. The numbers have grown with each approaching day. Anyone’s invited. (let me know and I’ll get you the information) The last I heard there were somewhere around 70, not counting children. This gathering was organized by one of our brothers at KW and was done for the expressed purpose of giving an outlet for unity and fellowship between brothers and sisters. Most of those attending are currently finding it difficult to worship on Sunday morning at KW, have left KW, or are seeking God’s direction for what to do next. We’ve all been asked to leave the “shop talk” about this matter behind and instead come together to seek the face of God and worship Him. “Shop talk” can take place later. I, like many others, am looking forward to this with great anticipation.
KW
I am “glad” we are in agreement about SGM seeming to like this necessary “pruning” of members. On the other hand it is sad if this is the real motivation of SGM Leaders. This is one thing that can happen when leaders see this as their ministry vs. a ministry that they are to be stewards of for God.
On a similar side, I am sure that is why SGM many times tries to appeal to younger people. Due to inexperience just like you mentioned when you were a young store manager they can tend to be a lot more pliable due to inexperience etc. That is great if one doesn’t want people that question.
Mike D,
Thankyou so much for “talking” with us and for the update. And yes, for me, when I refer to you as the “Band of Brothers”, I am including the Godly women in your ranks —– youall are exemplifying what it is to take courage in battle, and interceede, and persist, and “fight the good fight of the faith.”
So thrilled to hear of the gathering of people to come together and fellowship and worship the Lord. I will be praying for you all— that the Lord will envelop you in His manifested Presence, and impart His strength and love and discernment and renewed ‘dunamis’ power to walk out the paths He sets before you.
Do you know if the church members will be included in the meetings with Peacemakers?? Will you be permitted to ask questions at that point?
Does Peacemakers have the entire truth of all the facets of this “conflict”?
It will be interesting to see their response to pastors, SGM and SGM polity and leaders who are defending the right to lie…….and if they take seriously the
example Scripture gives us of those who lie to the Brethren in the church according to Acts 5: 1-13…..and the core question God put in the heart of Peter to ask Annanias:
“Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
MD, if you shouldnot answer these questions here, I understand. We are praying and rejoice and believe that God is shattering the darkness of duplicity around KingsWay/SGM Polity– a chunk at a time……….The Lord bless youall and your families in His unfailing love……….
PK, dear bro, I wasn’t trying to kick you or anyone. I was just sort of hoping to drop a thought into who ever’s head God wanted to hear it. Didn’t mean to make you or anyone at all feel kicked.
Stunned
Stunned:
Don’t misunderstand me, I felt no hostility in your post. I had that arrogance you described, and God forbid I ever exemplify it again.
No worries. Just winded, but I am fine now, and please don’t take that as a “whoa!”
We’re good.
–pk
Mike,
The current total for the picnic on Thursday night is approximately 80, but that DOES include approximately 40 kids/teenagers. And yes, anyone that needs a good night of food, fellowship, community and worship is more than welcome to come! Please email Mike Drewry for the details.
Not to split hairs, but I don’t want to be giving any MIS-information on this website.
Steve240, PK and Fred— Yep— SGM has for years ‘pruned out’ questioning members (so their edifice will not be confronted).
Also, in Chesapeake, in the 90′s, as some people left the church, SS actually went to the churches where the former SGM people were then attending, to “report” on said members. These were not ‘rebellious’ congregants or people with rancor, but Godly people who held onto their convictions. ——Ughhh the arrogance of SGM — perhaps this is one reason why many churches and ministries in Hampton Roads view SGC Chesapeake as a cult.
Picnic/Worship Planner –
Thanks for clarifying. I too do not want to give MIS information. Sorry and thank you for planning all of this. I truly believe that it was your listening to the Spirit’s leading that prompted this time together.
Stunned-
Do you know if the church members will be included in the meetings with Peacemakers?? I’m told that we will. The statement was that “all who would be concerned could meet with the conciliator.” (paraphrase)
Will you be permitted to ask questions at that point? I don’t know and I’m not sure how that would fit in to the process. It’s my understanding that parties are interviewed seperately.
Does Peacemakers have the entire truth of all the facets of this “conflict”? As part of inviting PM in, the pastors are the only ones to speak with them so far. (at least as far as I’m aware of)
It will be interesting to see their response to pastors, SGM and SGM polity and leaders who are defending the right to lie…….and if they take seriously the
example Scripture gives us of those who lie to the Brethren in the church according to Acts 5: 1-13…..and the core question God put in the heart of Peter to ask Annanias:
“Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” — well said my friend
Mike & Picnic Planner,
So great to hear from you Band of Bro’s (& Sis’s) at KW. Your planned gathering sounds really wonderful! Your plan of leaving “shop talk” for another time is also refreshing. May God meet you there in a very tangible way. I don’t have a date, either for the PM arrival, although I have heard “October.” Which could be right around the corner, or not until Halloween-time. In the meantime, we’ll be praying for you all!
P.D.
Mike, thanks so much for answering. But just wanted to let everyone know it wasn’t me who wrote those good questions. The smart one is Waters (above). Praying for you guys! Questions, questions, questions until every question has been satisfied. Leave no stone unturned in order to get at the truth. It doesn’t make people feel comfortable but the truth always fits you better in the long run than a pretty but ill fitting peace.
Cool, PK, just didn’t want anyone to misunderstand my intentions.
Brothers and sisters at Kingsway, please, I implore you, do NOT sign away any right that God or this nation has given you. Do not add to the law. There is NO WHERE in the entire bible where God commands you to do such a thing. Your freedom was bought with the blood of Jesus, himself. Please, do not give up rights that He suffered for you to have. If God ain’t asking you to give it up, it isn’t of Him.
Did you already sign something a few years back, giving up those rights? Then repent of it. Decide that you will no longer keep to a “law” God doesn’t require of you. You have been made free, do not put yourself into a man created bondage. Repent of signing something that was created to control you. It is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God that is supposed to control you and nothing else.
If you should go into the Peacemaking process without that silly (OK, it’s not just silly, it’s wrong!) vow, it is GOD who will keep you from sinning, not that agreement. Agree to nothing but to talk and to listen and to trust the Holy Spirit to lead you how you should behave after the discussion is over. I trust He can lead you as He pleases and it’s up to you to follow. I wish Peacemakers and your leaders trusted you as much.
Amen Stunned,…..Amen!!
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore,and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Galations 5:1
Stunned— Your post above….. a LIFE-GIVING EXHORTATION
for our Brothers and Sisters at KingsWay……….Amen!!
Any method or angle or vow that would seek to muzzle truth, especially in regards to deceptions puppeteered by pastors and any church leaders is contrary to scripture:
Zech 8: 15-17– “Do not fear! These are the things which you should do: speak the
truth to one another; judge with truth and judgement for peace in your gates.
Also let none of you devise evil in your heart against another, and do not love perjury; for all these are what I hate, declares the Lord.”
Stunned – Thanks for the correction. Boy that’s twice in one afternoon that I needed to be corrected publicly. First “Planner,” now you.
Waters – Sorry for the slip-up. I was moving through the response quickly and misread the names. Your questions were good and deserved a response. I hope that I answered you completely.
Mike, no worries.
Hello guys and gals. I have not posted in a while but I have been keeping up with the goings on at dear ole KWCC and with those that have left or are about to leave.
It is a very confusing time. Last week there was a flurry of group emails thrown about. It seemed to allow everyone to see where certain people really stood as the “reply to all” responses were generated. Also there have been a few get-togethers in the past week and the big one scheduled for Thursday. People are excited to get together but I sense that people don’t really know what the next move should be. Do we wait for the Peacemaker thing to play out? But it will drag on for weeks, probably into November, and with what result? What can possibly be gained at this point. The KingsWay leadership along with the Sovereign Grace leadership have drawn a line in the sand. Through Dave Harvey, they have driven the stake into the ground regarding polity. There will be no lay elders or hints of congregationalism. There will be no more public meetings…no demands for change…no more outcries to be heard. Things will go on just as they are and they hope that it will all become just a bad memory. The leadership will continue to paint BD, BM and SW as rabble rousers…dissidents…slanderers. Gene will continue the use of his “bully pulpit” sending his carefully crafted and group-advised KingsMail and email messages while hypocritically condemning SW’s use of the same medium in an attempt to set the record straight.
Brothers and sisters, look again at the DVD of the family meeting. You see what looks like a repentant Gene. Maybe he was. But in the weeks since then you have seen a return to business as usual in attitude and positioning. You have seen a man that may have started to turn away from his past sins, but when the going got tough during the Q&A, at the CGL meeting and in the days after, you have seen him fall back into a defensive posture. What has your conversation with him been like? I suggest that Dave and CJ and other leaders in SGM have encouraged him to get back into this position because his acknowledgement of his wrongs in regard to the events of ten years ago put a big spotlight on the systemic ills of Sovereign Grace Ministries that are due to their top down power structure that is bolstered by their unbiblical polity. This is what everyone needs to understand. You must connect the dots. This entire thing is not just about one man that was wronged ten years ago. It is much, much bigger.
If you are one of my dear brothers and sisters that wishes everyone would just leave Gene alone and just go away, please listen to me. Understand that you are in an abusive relationship with your church. The leaders are lording over you faith and you just have not realized it yet. I ask myself “why does ‘such-and-such” not see it?” I realize that the people who are the churches’ greatest cheerleaders all have a dog in the race. They have positions. They are Community Group Leaders, Worship Team Members, Children’s Ministry leaders, Ushers, pastoral wannabes and whatever else. Are you willing to sacrifice your position to flee a situation of spiritual abuse and general abuse of power? Or will you just stay comfortable and criticize the people that leave. I know you want to care for and support your “pastor.” It is noble to have care and concern. But my question is this: what have you made into an idol? Is it your church? Is it your pastors? Is it you position in the church. Is it the love and recognition you receive from your pastors and others around you? Is it perhaps a job with the church and the money you receive from it? Or worse, is it your own sense of satisfaction that you “aren’t like those jerks that are causing so much trouble” and, unlike “them”, you love your church and pastors.
Destroy your idols and love Jesus first.
Looking Elsewhere:
Re: September 21, 2010 at 9:26 pm, simply an outstanding comment.
–pk
Mike D– Thankyou for answering questions — it is a help to know how to pray..
LookingElsewhere…… Yes—so very true: “This entire thing is not just about one man that was wronged ten years ago. It is much much bigger.”
— God has seen fit to shine the spotlight upon KingsWay,” unveiling the systemic
ills of Sovereign Grace Ministries that are due to their top down POWER structure
that is bolstered by their unBiblical polity.”
—–And here is opportunity for every Believer in this upheaval, as you rightly
declared: ” Destroy your idols and love Jesus first. ”
Oh God, awaken and shake Your people……..deliver them from the stronghold of
deception…..and into the arms of their first love, Jesus the Christ.
Looking Elsewhere said:
Understand that you are in an abusive relationship with your church. ..Are you willing to sacrifice your position to flee a situation of spiritual abuse and general abuse of power? Or will you just stay comfortable and criticize the people that leave?
Everyone at KW, only you can answer these questions for yourself. But they must be asked, and you must look deep within yourself to answer. Everyone in SGM, ask yourself these questions. The answers may be difficult, but you must ask. Go back and read MB’s BURDEN and see if it is somewhat like looking in a mirror. Heed these admonishments, everyone. They are sobering. Christ alone brings freedom.
P.D.
PD, could you please post a link to MB’s Burden for us all? Thank you.
MB’s Burden is still in the “Last 15 Posts” column on this page, but here is the link again.
–pk
Waters said:
“Also, in Chesapeake, in the 90′s, as some people left the church, SS actually went to the churches where the former SGM people were then attending, to “report” on said members. These were not ‘rebellious’ congregants or people with rancor, but Godly people who held onto their convictions. ——Ughhh the arrogance of SGM — perhaps this is one reason why many churches and ministries in Hampton Roads view SGC Chesapeake as a cult.”
This is sad to hear. It sounds like members that disagreed with the SGM way or with Steve Shank were, under the guise of “loving pursuit”, essentially “slandered” by Shank. Put another way they were given the Shank.
It is sad hearing that at least in this case disagreement with SGM was considered by the leaders tantamount to disobeying God.
Doh!
Stunned, your comment yesterday at 6:17, urging people not to sign away their rights, was exactly right!
I feel so anxiously eager to “see” how things will continue to play out at Kingsway. I eagerly hope for the people to find courage and faith to keep saying No to the wrongs that have been (and are being) uncovered.
(Protestant Dame, thank you for the welcome earlier; I was out of town for several days after I first posted.)
I’ve been in the shadows but finally feel compelled to write as
I work this out spiritually…thinking by doing so “out loud” it may help to get your perspective.
The Spiritual Battle
Who are the good guys, who are the bad guys?
Where is God? Which side is he on? If he is on the Pastor’s side, then by all means, Mickey was right in his sermon on Unity. We should adhere to our church in unity despite the frustrations and wrongdoings.
Of course, it begs the question, what wrongdoings? The pastor’s and SGM has painted a great façade to make us all believe there are no wrongdoings. From a new visitor, they would see a welcome committee on the outside of the church, beautiful organized worship on the inside, a biblically sound sermon from the pulpit, and friendly social time in the foyer after church. The building is well architected and the interior walls are luxuriously lined with maple (?) wood paneling. The sunlight shines in from the vast windows, and the overall ambiance of the interior is mesmerizing. How could one see the deception? Only if one has followed the story from the insider’s view (this blog) or received the emails circulating.
And from the SGM view, the blogs are sin and causing division. If God is on the SGM/pastors’ side, he would be saying, you should have unity with the local church. One should bear down, persevere, etc. Hold together in unity. Rebuild the church. Get out the people causing others to stumble.
If the battle is reversed…
If God is on Bob/Steve’s side, then he wants to get the problem out of the church. Reveal the sin of the past. Expose the root. Eradicate the evil. He wants to tear down the walls. Open the floodgates. He wants to make people aware. If this is the case, people who leave the church are freed to worship and follow God’s leading as the Holy Spirit leads. The people are no longer under the power of a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He’s freeing his people as Moses freed the Israelites from Pharoah. Perhaps Bob is a modern day Moses. Is that too strong?
But why not church unity, God, in this scenario? It appears that no matter who is right, there will not be church unity in this situation. If God is on Bob’s side, can there be church unity? There could only be church unity, if the church can ban together to denounce what is going on with the pastors. But people don’t have a voice and their only way to express themselves is by leaving. If they could ban together and do a “sit in” or a “picket” or something to show their masses. Instead, this congregation is leaving silently one by one. Leaving Bob and Steve standing alone to face the Pharoah.
So again, I’m left stumbling over the question, Which side is God on? All spiritual battles have a good and evil, don’t they? Maybe not! Can someone shed some light on this for me? It is confusing as an observer and participant to be watching this unfold.
In the shadows,… isn’t that pretty much where everyone at Kingsway is, “in the shadows”. Thank you for taking a step outside of the shadows and expressing yourself here. I would very much like to speak with you, look me up (MB =mark bogert). When we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another. If we all were out of the shadows and in the light our fellowship would not only be free with God but also with one another.
Without trying to address the taking of sides and what side God is on (which I don’t think is particularly productive using this medium), I can say that Bob, Buddy and Steve have asked for open, honest, transparent communication and a meeting where the charges are specifically addressed, repentance is undeniable (church is led in repentance as well) and restoration is not only achieved but a catalyst to revival.
Of particular concern to me, is the extent to which these corporate sins have suppressed and grieved the Holy Spirit. I, like many others have not escaped these effects. God’s call to me and our church is repentance. God’s instruction is to follow Matthew 18. Only when we obey his Word are we protected by his promises. As a good friend of mine reminded me today, Matthew 18 specifies “that every charge may be established” which is what is missing in the minds most every member at Kingsway due to leadership’s refusal to specifically disclose. Not only are we not protected by an adherence to Matthew 18 but are prevented from restoration and the vibrancy of the Holy Spirit as well.
Peacemakers cannot find truth like God’s word can (Heb. 4; 12 God’s word is living, active, sharp, piercing and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart) Members are confused not only about what peacemakers is supposed to solve but also how peacemakers will be able to restore trust. Our hope at Kingsway is Christ alone, he is in the light and we should be also.
Shadow walker, come into the light, we know God is there.
Is there a link where I can listen to this consequential “Unity Sermon” by Mickey Connolly?
This is Mickey Connolly…the senior pastor at CrossWay Community Church in Charlotte, NC…right?
AKS,
The Unity Sermon was delivered at Kingsway. Here is a link for it. (I hope). Still learning this here blog moderation thang….
P.D.
Listening to Mickey’s message (this may take me awhile through dinner and other things).
3 min. into it and I already have a problem (someone has mentioned this already on the blog, I think):
If I am not mistaken, through his marriage illustration–and description of marital woes that causes one to wonder “if the couple will make it”–he likens this relationship of the (flock) laity/congregation to the (undershepherds) pastors/leadership unto a marriage.
Huh? (brows furrow)
In my opinion (and prove me wrong, please), Scripture illustrates that the marriage is between the Church as a whole (the flock and the undershepherds) and Christ (the Chief Shepherd).
Also, when I think of an illustration that equates what I have with PD as being the same thing I should have with a pastor, that makes me want to spit ball bearings and shoot flames out my nostrils.
–pk
The idea that the believer is married to the (local) church is the fallacy of Stop Dating the Church. Haven’t read the book, but I gather it is urging Christians to stop “dating” and “marry” the church.
But my loyalty is to Jesus…not to any one particular church…
In The Shadows,
Welcome! And thanks for the thought-provoking post. Thanks, too, to MB for the answer and appeal to In The Shadows. I suppose I never pondered the “Who’s side is God on?” question. I would hope, if we’re all Christians here, that God’s on everyone’s side. Then again, scripture is full of instances where God says, “Unless you repent…” I can’t help thinking of Abe Lincoln’s great quote (in reference to the civil war as I recall): “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”
P.D.
Thanks for the link, P.D.
PK, I look forward to your commentary on Mickey’s sermon.
Hey, In the Shadows,
I just reread your post and what I said. I’m afraid my comment for you to “come into the light” could be misunderstood. I was just playing off your name “In the Shadows” and did not mean to imply anything related to your relationship with Christ, nor did I mean to imply that I am somehow superior,please forgive me .
I am extremely interested in the light metaphor as it is so biblical and relevant to our lives. As children of the light we can see clearly,know the truth and walk in freedom. It is great being in the light. Oh, that we all walk in it every day, all day long! Even in these questionable circumstances at Kingsway the light of Jesus will show us the way.
Do I dare quote Pope John XXIII here? Well, here goes:
“If God created shadows it was to better emphasize the light”
I think all of us who are in the shadows are drawn to the light….yes
P.D.
Hi In the Shadows and welcome! Your comments really made me think. (It hurts when my brain does that.
) Anyway, my first thought was the Lincoln quote. Someone asked him which side of the war God was on. He said that the question should be if they were on God’s side or not.
So then I thought, what is God’s side? And then I thought the next few words. Truth. Light. Love. Justice. Mercy. Grace.
I have no idea what those mean other than the fact that I hope that in this whole thing, I hope that we are all on the side of truth, light, love, justice, mercy and grace. On the side of God.
Thanks for your responses, everyone!
MB…I understand and didn’t take offense to your interest in the metaphor of the light vs shadows. I’ve used the name “In the shadows” to mean that I feel as though I’m sitting as an observer watching the KW drama unfold without attention on me. I’m not convinced my decision to leave or stay will make a big wave in the church, even though it will make a big impact in my life.
Also, MB, I appreciated your answer in
September 22, 2010 at 3:59 pm . From a trusted source, I’ve been told that no Christian should be above Matthew 18, including a pastor. Do you agree?
Stunned & PD: Abe Lincoln’s quote regarding the war…very thought provoking, and that is the same side I want to be on! I’m seeking to be on God’s side with a contrite and repentant heart always – no matter what the battle or decision in front of me. And, Stunned, I like this: Truth. Light. Love. Justice. Mercy. Grace.
PK: I, too, would like to hear your comments on Mickey’s Unity sermon when you’ve finished listening.
Thank you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, for this opportunity to come out of the shadows and work out these questions.
Stunned,
Love those words about “God’s side”: truth, light, love, justice, mercy and grace, and I’ll add “His glory”
In The Shadows said:
Thank you, dear brothers and sisters in Christ, for this opportunity to come out of the shadows and work out these questions. This is what we ultimately hope the Refuge is for many: a place to come and work out these questions. Questions others will not answer, let alone discuss.
And your statement: I’m not convinced my decision to leave or stay will make a big wave in the church, even though it will make a big impact in my life. This gave me a twinge of sadness. Many, many lives affected by this upheaval. We are glad you’re here.
P.D.
Finished Mickey’s message on “Unity” last night.
While he makes some good points, overall it was designed to paint saints as against the unity of the body if they have disagreements with fellow Christians or leaders. There was not much wiggle room at all for those concerned that a pastor may be disqualified to lead a church. I’ve seen this passage used in the same manner by cultic systems, by the way; an appeal for unity at all costs; a call for all sheep to lovingly and obediently return to the fold, with a stop-rocking-the-boat-in-any-way-shape-or-form trailer tacked onto it.
This is fallacious teasing of the text.
(1) The context of Ephesians 4–in my opinion, but more than a few commentators would back me up on this–is of the church universally, and not just the local church. Even though he may be addressing Ephesus directly, there is a bigger picture here on the Apostle Paul’s heart than assuaging the wounds of pastors–who were caught in patterns of sinful or authoritarian practices–for the sake of unity.
(2) It is because of a love for the unity of the faith and Spirit-bestowed unity that pastors get called onto the carpet for behavior that is questionable only after saints have studied the scriptures and see it as such.
Last night, PD and I had a discussion about thought-terminating clichés and loaded language. Words meant to shut-up and shut-down. While I do not subscribe to the sum total of what psychology and sociology have to offer (and any psychologist or sociologist worth their salt would tell you the same, secular or Christian), I do believe these concepts have something to offer in terms of Christians being vigilant to spot them and confront them. Why? Because it is the language of wolves, pure and simple.
DISCLAIMER: Beloved, the only being in the universe qualified to end discussion on anything is God Himself, Christ Himself, and the Holy Spirit Himself. When pastors and leaders want to claim that authority, that’s presumption of mediatorship, in my opinion. Additionally, if a pastor also wants to claim his credentials match or exceed those of prophets or mouthpieces God used in Scripture–and therefore can make thought-terminating clichés–that is certainly their perogative. Wrong, but they can try and make the claim anyway. Please don’t be surprised if you see me heading for the nearest EXIT, though. Can a pastor relay what God says in Scripture? YES, and he should. Does the pastor stand in the stead of God with unquestioned interpretation and behavior? NEVER.
I would submit that often–maybe in not every instance, but OFTEN–when “biblical” and “unbiblical” is thrown into the conversation by the speaker, this is meant to end discussion and debate totally. At that point they have entered the realm of thought-terminating cliches; and it’s a shame, too, because this treatment smears those words and others like it with commonness and illegitimacy, when it shouldn’t.
–pk
PK–“Words meant to shut-up and shut-down”. Hmmm. What a thought…. I have been stewing over this same idea myself for days.
The “shut-up and shut-down” word I’ll propose for the list is “humility”. This word has been tossed around like a hot potato. It is seemingly a “shut down” word because, as Christians, we all seek the humility of Christ, “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death–even death on a cross!” (Philippians 2:6-8, NIV). Therefore, when someone throws the “be humble” grenade at us, we can’t help but take a step back and check our spirit (and I pray we do) and realign ourselves with Christ. However, what is the result; we lose momentum and get distracted leading to marginalization and weakened dialogue.
So, as I see it, when someone in leadership is confronted or challenged on a point, it is so easy for them to throw the “don’t be proud” card and to remind the accuser to “be humble” as if Truth is the antithesis of Humility.
What I want is TRUTH (transparency, honesty, real heart-felt openness and vulnerability). Pride is the enemy, not Truth. Seeking truth in an assertive and determined manner does not violate God’s call for Humility.
“Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.” (Deuteronomy 31:6, NIV)
bc
Battle Cry said:
“So, as I see it, when someone in leadership is confronted or challenged on a point, it is so easy for them to throw the “don’t be proud” card and to remind the accuser to “be humble” as if Truth is the antithesis of Humility.”
Good point. As I have said before maybe if Gene Emerson practiced (more) humility then he wouldn’t have withheld the truth for as long as he did and then only come out with the truth when the issue was pressed by others. Isn’t Emerson’s apparent lack of humility one of if not the only root cause of what he did.
I guess it is easier for SGM Leaders to point out sin to regular members vs. observing that in themselves and other members.
PD,
You said, “ This is what we ultimately hope the Refuge is for many: a place to come and work out these questions. Questions others will not answer, let alone discuss.”
My question to whomever wants to weigh in is “Why?” Why do so many come here and not “work out these questions face to face?
It seems the obvious answer is “fear.” But what are people afraid of? At this point I’m scared ’cause others are scared, but what is there to fear?
bc
Battle Cry:
There should be nothing to fear, in theory.
While you may not be addressing anonymous IDs, your question necessitates bringing up this subject at least briefly (and I don’t want to rabbit trail this discussion, but invariably an SGM supporter comes in during this discussion of fears and blasts everyone for using anonymous IDs, so I thought I’d snuff that blowtorch immediately before it starts gassing up for the kill).
Everyone (SGM supporters, SGM members, and ex-SGM members):
Many may use anonymous IDs, but based on the reasons PD and I use them as well as many here, these reasons are wide and varied.
Often anon-IDs have nothing or very little to do with SGM.
Where the “fear” factor comes in:
My real name is recognizable, easy-to-find, and I have many relatives in SGM, and it is my choice that I don’t want them tagged as “PK’s relatives” in the blogosphere or at church with unnecessary baggage.
SGM leadership and laity penalizes families for the “questionable” or “rebellious” actions of one member/ex-member. This is not an irrational fear…I’ve seen it happen, and many here will confirm this. So my anonymous ID, while not so anonymous in some realms, is an attempt to protect others…not myself.
Many fear their relatives who are employed by SGM or SGM churches “fear” their relatives will lose jobs, be unnecessarily penalized or watched closely because of associations and blood ties to us so-called poisonous bloggers.
This is obscene and shouldn’t happen. Why?
Because the main critic of the use of anonymous IDs is SGM, and SGM is the organization who created an environment that necessitates it.
I am so sick and tired of SGM or any organization/denomination creating the very scenarios that they eventually deem necessary to villify, condemn, and criticize (dare I say gossip and slander about?) in the strongest of terms, which gives birth to a state of fear.
Leaders and so-called families of churches need to ask themselves the cold, hard questions as to why saints en masse have donned anonymous IDs to begin discussion on these issues. There needs to be an introspection on this, and not the merciless machine-gunning of it. Don’t create a situation that fosters the fear of man, and then have the gall to slap any anon-IDer on these blogs in the face with it. Get that gnarled forest out of your face before training your microscope on your brother or sister’s splinters.
There should be nothing to fear on this.
–pk
Fear nothing but man. (Said the woman who still goes by a nom-de-plum
)
That’s why I think if they tried to throw the ‘humility’ line at me I’d just want to tell them to bite me and answer my freakin’ question. (Not that I would say it but maybe simply a, that’s between me and God or, “thanks for you concern. Now, please answer the question.”)
Thank you for being so candid Battle Cry.
You pose a good question,”why fear?”I believe it lies in our understanding of authority. You and I feel feelings of fear because we know judgment may follow. Whether it’s a parent or a cop, the degree to which we fear them is to the degree in which we may be punished by them. Those with great authority have the potential to produce great fear. Those with unchecked authority have the power to manipulate this kind of fear toward which ever and they choose.
This fear question and the extent to which we experience fear, correlates directly to the extent to which we have allowed the authority of our pastors to substitute for the authority of Christ. The truth is, we need not fear anyone but God, however we do because we have both given inappropriate authority to our pastors and have allowed that authority to compromise our obedience to Christ alone. In fact, I have found that I have valued the love, acceptance and leadership of my pastors (and the culture of which they have established) more than being led by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and finding fulfillment solely in Christ. This has been part of my journey, to fear God more than man. In order to do this, I’ve taken a hard look at exactly what the Bible says about our leaders having authority. Without going into depth here, authority given to our leaders must equate to their authentic representation of Christ’s life Positional authority becomes a neutral factor as only Christ legitimately occupies this position in our lives.
This is what is so disappointing. Inappropriate authority given to man (idolatry) compromises the authority that Christ must have in our life. Fear becomes a controlling emotion, when in Christ freedom should be. Christ came to set us free! Battle Cry, run to Him, I’m with you.
BC,
Thank you for bringing your insight into the “humility” card so often used by SGM
They have often turned it into a “shut-up and shut-down” tactic against Brethren who bring sins/issues/confrontations into the light.
Your question: “why do so many come here and not work out these questions face to face?”—Probably most here who write HAVE sought to work out issues face to face with leadership—with little or no resolve. In our case, we went through 2 years of meetings, hoop-jumping, meetings etc…….IM (H)O , the common thread among posters here is our desire to HEAR those who are in the midst of an SGM upheaval/assault/battle…..to let them know they are not alone, are not imagining things and—prayer support as SGM duplicitous verbage sends up smokescreens
and deflections from T R U T H. I know this has been said before here, but to state again—the SGM Refuge blog is an avenue to bring Light —Light which exposes and confronts the manipulative control of SGM leadership and polity upon the Brethren.——————Therefore, as PD wrote, Here on Refuge, we may” bring our questions that others will NOT answer, let alone discuss.” And when we ask questions…we are seeking……..knocking….for Truth..expecting Jesus to answer and hear HIS Voice/Word above the edicts and mandates of man.
Keep asking questions, BC— We believe God has chosen KingsWay to bring the leaven/pollution which runs throughout SGM into the Light. You have a strong band of Brethren there who are taking a Godly stand for Truth— this is an amazing story to watch unfold. You are in the midst! God will guide you and direct you as you seek Him! It takes courage to SEE the disappointing and destructive side of what is unveiling at KingsWay—but as you pointed out in Deut 31:6—we are to BE strong and courageous—as you all continue to take the courage and strength God provides —you will walk in faith and His strength and discernment— and He will be glorified (not man!!)
Stunned, MB & Waters:
Great comments!
–pk
Hello Battle Cry,
Yes, what PK said. And Stunned. And MB and Waters.
What do we fear? We fear man. And the repercussions of confronting pastoral authority. If you’ve ever worked a job under a boss who is a “micro manager,” maybe you can feel the vibe. If you’ve ever sat in a session with an SGM pastor (or worse yet with more than one at the same time), they may listen politely as you air your concerns or ask your questions. And then the spotlight is on you, your heart, your motives, your sin, your lack of trust in ‘biblical authority’ (implying your lack of trust in God). And after a few minutes of this, you wonder why you came through the door in the first place.
And some folks make for the exit after one or two such encounters. The rest of us (me included) start trying to figure out what we can do to be accepted in their eyes again, because we’re equating their approval of us with God’s acceptance of us. It all becomes about pleasing men, performing the right behavior, acting humble or whatever has been demanded of you in that list of XYZ to be back in His (and more importantly, THEIR) good graces. And God forbid you be labeled “unteachable and proud,” as there will be nothing you can do to escape that trap. Any future concern you may want to bring will be filtered through the lense of your pride and unteachability and summarily dismissed.
So those of us who are not very sure of ourselves (or who we are in Christ) will go into major performance mode to gain that elusive approving glance from our pastors. In very short order, you will be twisted into knots, quite miserable in the knowledge you’ll never be able to measure up. Or if you’re a good actor, maybe you can get the outward appearance polished just right so as not to attract anymore attention to yourself or bring any more fire down upon your head.
Either way, no people can live under such a yoke of bondage for long.
So I’ll paraphrase MB here: Fear becomes a controlling emotion, when it’s in Christ our freedom should be found. Christ came to set us free! Run to Him, I’m with you.
P.D.
Blessings all, it’s been a long time since I’ve chimed in. Gaining so much insight from you PK and PD, thank you. My desire for anonymity here is more than the fear of repercussion from perceived authority. Anonymity here allows for the potential to maintain relationships with loved ones yet in SG. If I wish to have an opportunity to speak the Truth to those whom I love, and left behind, anonymity is required, because of the convoluted definition of gossip which exists within the SG culture. The potential for future conversation would likely be dismissed if we plastered our names here (although the phone’s not exactly ringing now with calls from our dearest friends.) So, although I can’t deny that there is some “fear of man” factor within me still related to an improper view of authority, there is also a sense that it is unwise to burn bridges to those whom I may one day have opportunity to impact. Just as I don’t go thumping my family over the head with the bible at the holidays, though I posses the truth about who Christ is and how he’s changed me, it is wise to tread carefully and reveal information as led by the Holy Spirit. Likewise, I haven’t shared my name here, as it is unwise to cast pearls to swine. Being selective with whom to share with and when, would seem to leave room for the Holy Spirit to prepare a heart to hear. I believe that our friends yet in SG would most certainly be afraid to approach us with questions if we posted our names, and we desire to leave the door open and the lights on for them.
Hope
Could someone shed some insight on the following discovery at wikipedia.com under a “sovereign grace ministries” search?
“Tomczak left the leadership of PDI in 1998 and later suggested that the increasingly Calvinistic theology of PDI was a major factor in his departure. He has described the parting of ways with Sovereign Grace Ministries as “an unbelievable nightmare” during which his family “were threatened in various ways if [they] did not cooperate with [PDI/SGM]… A letter was circulated in an attempt to discredit me and to distort the events surrounding my departure.” (reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....Ministries)
I suppose this adds to or is foundational evidence of the FEAR/intimidation tactics used by SGM?
-bc
Hope,
Welcome back! Good word, and good points.
Battle Cry,
I was somewhat out of the direct PDI/SGM loop when Larry T. departed. Our friend Irv who posts here quite often knows of this situation in more depth. Perhaps he’d be able to shed some light on this. Irv? Can you comment?
P.D.
There are several reasons I post annonymously. One of the most important to me is to protect my children. My story is party their story. If I were to reveal my identity, then many of the things I discuss would be discussing their lives. It is their lives and I don’t feel right about exposing them for a variety of reasons.
Stunned
BC–when you are trying to invent something “new,” like GOB/PDI/SGM, it finally dawns that there is nothing new under the sun.
Larry was going one way theologically, CJM was busy cobbling together a hodgepodge theology to gain the approval of the mainstream crowd. (I’m reformed, believe me: SGM is not.)
So somehow, CJM won the pissing contest and tossed LT under the bus.
Now…someone else fill in the gory details.
(Though LT has landed quite nicely in Nashville–drove by his church a month ago.)
And for me, the posting anonymously is because I teach many beloved SGM kids. I don’t want to hurt them in any way…
They might misunderstand my words or intentions, or they might be persecuted or made uncomfortable by our association.
Most of them have figured out who I am, though, we just never discuss it.
PK,
I too listened to Mickey’s message last evening and I believe that you are absolutely right in your evaluations.
“Thought-terminating cliches” & “loaded language” are the common vocabulary of SGM and (sadly) a lot of Christian anti-thought today (let’s never forget that the tragic practices discussed at this site have destructively taken root in many parts of the church).
Throughout this message, Mickey constantly uses the language of “isn’t this eye-rollingly obvious” that anybody who asks hard questions or has principled discontent is an enemy of the unity of the church – and therefore of Christ Himself. Having had a number of interactions with Mickey through the years, I know that this is a common manner for him. He says concrete dogmatic unbendable things, uses some self-deprecating humor to make it clear that he is no expert (so these authoritative statements obviously come with grace and humility), then proceeds to exclude any other opinion from the realm of possible truth.
At one point in this message he applies this type of tactic saying – with a laugh and self-deprecating lightness – something to the effect of “Isn’t it odd how unity is never challenged and division is never caused by people who are looking out for the good of others, but only by those looking out for their own interests.” (Loose summary of his words) Then, with an “I’m just sayin’…” kind of flippancy he blows through the point, acting like it just a side bit of common sense; but the obvious effect is to leave everyone knowing that if I choose to be a voice of discontent (even Godly discontent) or if I come to believe that I or others should separate from this local church (for reasons even of Biblical principle) – then I will have been (in advance) already, and irrefutably defined as a selfish, attention-seeking enemy of unity in the body of Christ.
I couldn’t help but wonder where church-disrupters like Martin Luther, historic (and heroic) fundamentalists, or divisive Southern Baptist reformers like Al Mohler fall in this never-disturb-the-appearance-of-unity definition of pride and humility.
The “humble” – by Mickey’s and SGM unchallengeable definition – do what they are told and assume that they have a sin problem if they have strong concerns about a church or its leadership.
Taking Note,
Always good to see you stop by the Refuge with your outstanding comments. Thanks for your take on MC’s “Unity” sermon. And Martin Luther? That trouble-maker? Didn’t Pope Leo X characterize him as “a wild boar loose in the Lord’s vineyard”? Uh-huh.
And ok, all this discussion on Unity has me thinking of one my favorite authors (brace yourself) Gene Edwards. Here’s what he says about groups putting emphasis on unity:
One last observation. An unusually large emphasis on unity accomplishes two things dear to most any worker, though he may not necessarily mention them. First, a call to unity keeps down trouble and dissension. (No one wants to bring disunity to the church.) Second, it keeps up membership. (To leave is to divide the body.) People are afraid to “break the unity.”
As I said, this is some potent tool. To sum up, in this generation, beware the worker bearing an inordinate dose of unity.
– From Letters to a Devastated Christian
P.D.
Taking Note,
You know Mickey pretty well.
Shame on the people who brought Mickey in to do a number on the Kingsway sheep.
Since we are talking about unity….a group of believers, probably 40+ adults gathered together for food, fellowship and a great time of worship. To be quite honest, I have not been in a time of undistracted corporate worship in a long time and I appreciate the guys that put it together. I know that when a group like this gathers together, we can so easily base our unity on our common dissatisfaction with the KWCC circumstances, but I really had a sense that we were all just focused on worshipping the Lord and loving one another and being grateful for fellowship that we have in Jesus. I think we were all encouraged.
Where does God take us from here? Time will tell. We must allow the events to play out at KingsWay. We can all pray that God will reveal the truth of how things have been handled over the years regarding SW and that people will be able to make an informed choice as to whether to go or stay. I believe that there will be future gatherings like tonight’s as we ride this thing out. I hope so, because my heart was encouraged in a way that it hasn’t been in a long time.
Looking Elsewhere:
I am greatly encouraged and rejoicing at your report. PD and I wish we were there with you. Know that our prayers are continuing for more of God’s rich blessings!
–pk
You all may blame PK and PD for this post — take up all issues with them!!
Any typos or confusion is me trying to comment on the fly!!! And now with all the commercials out of the way we return to our regularly scheduled program!!
The relationship between Larry and CJ, was pretty strained from the outset even though most of us had no idea. Although they (CJ and Larry) presented themselves in a way that was not real, I do believe they wanted it to be real. “Friends first, Leaders second” The attraction of many (me included) to PDI was the perceived relationships as the foundational aspect of PDI and the church. What they said was right, what they lived was not. The separation of Larry and CJ was NOT theological (reformed or otherwise).
There were things going on behind the scenes of men maneuvering for place and position. I remember being asked questions to me about Larry in the mid 80’s that were asked in such a way you would lose credibility of having discernment if you didn’t express concern for his leadership, his style, his discernment, etc. etc. The manipulation was even then embarrassing but I as I look back, it is absolutely shameful.
I / we were being asked questions about Larry’s ability, calling, anointing, etc. as he was the primary covering for our church. In my opinion there was certainly a lobby going on to replace Larry with CJ – which may or may not have been the right thing but the process stunk to high heaven. What they did to him was rather curious as he was the founder and father of PDI. My question is and was: if CJ and others didn’t agree with Larry, why didn’t they resign, leave and begin their own ministry? Instead they went about working to remove him and take PDI as their own.
At some point the ‘ownership’ (my word) was shifted to CJ and Larry was out. Gradually Larry’s role was diminishing through the years and from my viewpoint they were looking to get rid of him altogether. The ‘A’ team determined him not to be an apostle; not worthy to be on the ‘A’ team; and was sent to Atlanta to determine if he was even a Senior Pastor.
From my viewpoint, the PDI leadership was given their opening to really remove Larry when one of his adult children came into some difficulty. It didn’t take them long to place Larry under discipline and was set down. It was a total travesty in my humble opinion but I must say that in a sense, Larry was a victim of his own teaching and methodology; that many others suffered under by the way.
For Larry, however, came wake up call if you will. Larry was on the other side with nowhere to go. I must say, with all due respect to Larry, he submitted to the discipline, stepped down for the purpose of being restored. It was then that Larry realized what all of us knew all along, when you came under the knife with PDI, there was no restoration.
If someone didn’t fit the PDI/SGM mold, it was only a matter of time you were gone. And if they wanted you gone there was not enough righteousness in your life to keep your place, status or position. Larry didn’t fit with PDI after awhile and no matter what he did or did not do he was going to be gone. To tell you the truth, I don’t have a problem with the concept (this will not go along way with some). If you don’t fit within an organization then let people leave with a blessing and dignity. Why paint someone into a sin corner (or lack of gifting or anointing, etc.) that does not allow one to leave gracefully.
I don’t know about things now, but back then you couldn’t leave or walk away without being labeled with sin (independent, rebellious, problem with authority, lack of management at home, etc. etc.). I personally asked to be released from PDI – answer no! Two years later I resigned – I was still the sinner, despite submitting to the Shankster and his interesting methods!
No! Larry did not fall out with the ‘A’ team because of theological reasons. Larry had lived out his usefulness and no longer fit in with the new regime. There was no choice but to have him removed. There have been some amazing men of God that have been thrown under the bus by the leadership of PDI/SGM and as a result they are not the movement they could have been (I know – easy to say by one of the de-gifted, but there you go).
I am very grateful to the Lord and to CJ and others, to have been asked for forgiveness for the way I was treated and dealt with. I can honestly say I have remained friends with CJ, Dave and Jim B though there are many things I disagree with about which I have been vocal. I am very sorry that they have not actively pursued other men (and women) and asked their forgiveness. It is what it is! I won’t give up on them, though I doubt they will change anything because the problems are in the core of their belief system.
Don’t know if that helps anyone but there it is from one voice that has traveled the road!
PK and PD – not sure I answered the question but if I didn’t come back to me and I will try again.
MB – with all due respect – there certainly may be a fear factor with anonymity but don’t count out the wisdom factor!! No issues with your comments following-
One reason I post with a pseudonym is so that people who google me for business purposes will not click on a link that brings them to this page when they’re looking for my business. I’d be embarrassed for non-beleivers to stumble upon the wreckage caused by SGM, and equally embarrassed for any believers who’d be blown away by what has transpired.
Irv – with regards to the anonymity issue on the blogs, count me in the wisdom camp as well. Thank you for pointing this out. I realize how easy it is to mean one thing only to be understood differently.
My comments about fear were not about blog anonymity but face to face talk. I respect all who choose anonymity and whole heartily support Hope’s comments on September 23, 2010 at 2:04 pm
I was attempting to respond to Battle Cry:” My question to whomever wants to weigh in is “Why?” Why do so many come here and not “work out these questions face to face?”
BC goes on to suggest it is fear. I thought BC was referring to being fearful of asking or talking face to face. PD, you gave a good explanation of why this is difficult as well. The wisdom factor always applies. Stand corrected if anyone else took my comments differently than I intended.
Irv, thank you for the clarification about Larry’s departure. I always felt sure there was more to the story than we were told. (I have seen a copy of the letter Larry himself wrote when he realized he was never going to be reinstated, and left.)
Larry used to come pretty often to speak at our church. (I was very sick of him at one point! But I came to a place of peace, and wish him well…)
Irv- also, thanks for giving the extended run down of PDI ,LT and CJ. It was interesting and helpful in understanding current culture.
PD- your quote of Gene Edwards was like bringing a lit candle into a dark room. The call for unity is almost impossible to criticize or dissect. It was very insightful and a useful caution.
Irv — thanks for the epistle (!). Although I had no great love for Larry T. back in the day, I can sympathize with how twisted the process was for his removal. It is interesting (from my perspective at least) to note that the very system he helped engineer and put into place was the instrument of his demise ( or “removal” is a kinder term ). I’m thinking of the analogy of the replicant in “Blade Runner” who turned on the man who engineered him and then killed him. Rather tragic.
Looking Elsewhere — I’m rejoicing with you at the report of your recent gathering! God is glorified in the midst of His people! Please keep us updated as you walk out each day in this drama….
P.D.
Battle Cry (a while ago up there) said:
An amazing observation, BC. Just a teaser here: Stay tuned for tomorrow’s post, featuring a very timely article on…..HUMILITY. Written for you, KingsWay, by one of your own.
P.D.
PD -
Thanks for cleaning up my post — However you corrected my attempt at a little humor correcting my spelling of dizernment to discernment :)
MB –
Irv,
LOL, well you can thank PK for most of the editing (including the dizernment correction). I only caught a couple other little items
We’re here for ya, man.
P.D.
PD, great quote from that book! Thank you.
Hey Irv, thank you for sharing. I am guessing it wasn’t easy. But the more truth gets out, the “lighter” things are around here and in the world in general. So thank you for sharing.
There’s one thing you wrote that I sort of disagreed with so would like to present a different perspective for people to consider. Actually, you did a very good job of presenting that other perspective in the same post. (I love it when people do my job for me.) But before I say what it is I want to say, Irv, I swear I’m not trying to pick on you or disagree with you just because you’re a former sgm pastor (off with their heads!) I know it seems that way sometimes that just because you’re an ex sgm pastor (off with their heads!), I have this tendency to disagree with you or any other sgm pastor (off with their heads!). But I swear, I don’t, in spite of my sgm turrets. *
Irv, you said, “To tell you the truth, I don’t have a problem with the concept (this will not go along way with some). If you don’t fit within an organization then let people leave with a blessing and dignity.” But my first thought was that isn’t it so much better if the organization grows and stretches in response to the people that God has sent its way? Yeah, it ain’t easy, but what worth it is?
Later on in your post you make my point so well. (Thank you. But, ah, if only you could have done that for some of my papers when I was in school.) You said, “There have been some amazing men of God that have been thrown under the bus by the leadership of PDI/SGM and as a result they are not the movement they could have been.” Point exactly! If people leave because they don’t fit into an organization, then the organization and all the people it touches will be missing out on an opportunity to be blessed by the prescence, thoughts, ideas and gifts of the person/people who didn’t fit into that organization’s box. I’m not saying you should always stick around, nor that every organization should change for every person. But there are sure lots of times when individuals do make a difference and where organizations and people benefit greatly from the one who doesn’t fit in. If only groups could learn the lesson that just because one doesn’t fit in, doesn’t mean they don’t belong. Often that outlier is the greatest blessing of all.
*All- just a moment of levity before I got into what I had to say. I don’t want off with anyone’s heads. Bad, Cosby like sweaters(anywhere they’re found) and bad hipster ironic t-shirts (found in big cities- the smaller towns can still keep them) I want off with. But heads, let’s keep ‘em on and blessed and speaking truth in love. Man, I really gotta work on that.
Taking Note said:
At one point in this message he applies this type of tactic saying – with a laugh and self-deprecating lightness – something to the effect of “Isn’t it odd how unity is never challenged and division is never caused by people who are looking out for the good of others, but only by those looking out for their own interests.” (Loose summary of his words)
Yeah, like those abolitionists. They were nothing but trouble makers. And they didn’t care for anyone but themselves.
And how about those revolutionists? Selfish, totally selfish. They gave up their homes, their lives, their wealth, their reputations and their families. And all for what? So they could selfishly get their names on the Declaration of Independence! What a bunch of jerks. Don’t be like them!
And that Martin Luther King, jr. Was totally only looking out for himself. Can you imagine how much nicer and quieter those neighborhoods could have been if he hadn’t been leading all those people marching through their streets. Upsetting the quiet unity with those rabblerousers. Geesh.
And how about those awful soldiers from WWII going into Germany and upsetting (and freeing) so many of their citizens. Can you imagine how many fights and how much disunity they caused as they marched into cities, one at a time. They should have stayed home. It was none of their business! Leave those poor Europeans alone. But, oh no, they had to cross those waters and march around- with GUNS nonetheless. I’ll tell you, nothing but trouble makers. Where do they get off? Giving up their lives, leaving their homes and families, sleeping in ditches. And for what? Did you see how much trouble they caused? Why, if it weren’t for them, poor Hitler wouldn’t have had to shoot anyone. If only everyone would have fallen in line and kept the unity of Europe. **
Those darned, selfish trouble makers.
** Actually, before Poland fell to Hitler, NO BODY spoke up, NO BODY lifted a finger when he marched into Prague. France was their closest ally and they said, “OK, if only you take them and leave the rest of us alone.” Thing is, when you give one weaker brother up to a bully, he never stops with that one. You WILL be consumed. Maybe not next, but he’s coming for you when you do that. And let’s see how that worked out for Prague. Very few bullet holes there now. One of the few capital cities of Europe not to be bombed during WWII. (Why would they be bombed? He already had ‘em.) So you think that would have worked out for them. Ask the millions of Czechs who were murdered, starved to death, died in the camps. Ask them what it felt like to be left behind by the rest of Europe because Chamberlain was too busy trying to “keep the peace”. Ask the how that worked out. Then tell me how unity is more important than righteousness, justice and truth.
Looking Elsewhere, what a good report! Unity IN CHRIST, loving each other over that. Now, that’s the bomb.
Irv
Thanks for the summary of what happened to Larry Tomczak.
If one goes back to the original TAG days and messages both Larry and C.J. would share that found they were hiding books from each other. When they both discovered this, the supposedly reconciled or something. Thus even back at the beginning there was rivalry. This rivalry may explain why in the beginning of what was called at the time Gathering of Believers the two chose to buy houses in different neighborhoods.
It is sad if this is what they did to Larry to force him to step down and eventually leave the group.
Stunned,
I hope some of the folks who have had a steady diet of Mickey through the years read your September 24, 2010 at 12:05 am.
I LOVE the way you “say what you say.”
This has been an interesting discussion about “anonymity” and actually revealed more than I intended in my post. My original question was stemming more from the side of “why not work out these issues face to face” (September 23, 2010 at 10:03 am). However, I have enjoyed reading each perspective on why some chose to remain anonymous while others disclose their identity, so thanks to all who responded! May we all pray for wisdom and not be ruled by fear!
Irv- thanks for detailed account. In someways (too many in fact) details/enlightenment are nauseating. Feeling sorrow for what has been done to fellow believers “in the name of God”…
-bc
Should I stay or should I go? Crucial question for me.
Are the current issues at KWCC a result of?:
a. Character “issues” with GE.
b. GE simply functioning in the dysfunctional system of SGM which endorses and mandates this type of rule/authority.
c. Both a and b.
d. None of the above.
If the answer is A, then there remains hope and I could stay at KWCC. However, it would require GE to be restored to the church body through apology, forgiveness and reconciliation. Not to mention increased accountability. This would need to happen quickly and thus far I have seen nothing but “business as usual” so my hope fades with each passing day.
If the answer is B, the hope is all but diminished. This is a monster of a corporation that shows no signs of wanting or a willingness to change. Doing something repeatedly for 20+ years and expecting modification to polity or structure seems impossible. Even if GE were not the sr. pastor (elder or whatever) the next pastor would potentially do the same thing (given enough time and in the right circumstance) under this system. So how could anyone stay and believe this won’t happen again, if the answer is B?
If the answer is C, then refer to the answer for B, because A becomes irrelevant.
If the answer is D, please enlighten me!
My guess is that I have way oversimplified this and I am missing some important points?!? Or did I?!?
I would tend to agree with Irv, but see your point too, Stunned.
Take the Catholic church…people join, then agitate over the abortion thing, the contraceptive thing, the gay marriage thing, the women priests thing…
What if we had a massive inflow into a congregationally led church of baby believers. They should not be driving the theology or polity…
However, SGM, in their absolute refusal to learn from the 2000 years of church fathers, probably should have learned from the wisdom of their parishioners.
Maybe they will now?
Battle Cry– I love the way you formed these questions and simplified the issues. I don’t believe you have oversimplified the issues but rather expressed the questions that are in the minds of many. Yes there are many other points that can be made but they are secondary to your two.
About the first of the year my questions focused primarily on the polity issue. Of recent months, the exercise of the polity (rule/authority) by the pastors has forced me to consider their own qualifications as elders. It seems as if your answers A and B are more connected than I ever thought.
I join you in asking anyone, please anyone to answer D. At this point I would love to be enlightened as well.
Stunned – You do have a way with words!!!! There is the real and the ideal. I sometimes live in both words knowing the real but believing for ideal. Your points are both are real and ideal!!for sharing –
:)
It is good to see you are coming out of your shell and beginning to express your thoughts and feelings with such freedom
Update from KingsWay e-mail received tonight:
Peacemaker Mediation Update
As many of you know, we’ve been in a process of talking through questions in response to the Family Meeting in August. We recently asked the primary men who have raised concerns to join us in a mediation process. There are times in our life together as a family where we simply need help resolving issues, which God uses to keep us humble and dependent on Him.
We’re glad to let you know that these men have agreed to participate. Paul Cornwell, an experienced conciliator from the Institute for Christian Conciliation, will be with us October 9 & 10 to begin mediation. This is a wonderful provision from God for our church! Please pray for God’s help in extending charitable judgments and maintaining a spirit of unity in preparation for these meetings.
And don’t hesitate to contact us with any questions. We’re committed to keeping you informed each step of the way.
Battle Cry, I have a very real respect for people who can distill out the key elements in a discussion or in problem solving. However, when I read your simple questions and answers my heart was breaking for our brother, Mr. Nash, I believe his name is, in MLC (Florida) who was removed from qualifying for ministry by having a 20-something son who made a sinful choice! This is such a glaring, NEON glowing discrepancy compared to ANYTHING G.Emerson has done! Can ANYONE stay in ministry after being allowed to harbor guilt and a grudge and livelihood of a man — in the case of SW humbling himself and trusting leaders while trying to seek the Lord and follow Him, thru the marching orders of a man who wanted to BE LORD for SW and tell him where he should go to minister.
I’m sorry I just told you I admire those who can be succinct!
Anyway, Dave Harvey’s appearances at the two congregations are shamefully different.
Set a standard and LIVE with it! Or choose grace. But that’s grace for all, not your favorites.
Battle Cry do you get the glaring NEON hypocrisy when looking at Nash next to Emerson?
I loved the report of the 40+ families gathering for sweet worship and fellowship! To whomever wrote it, Thank you!! Now, can those who were there take your church back for JESUS and invite whichever pastors want to come along? And whichever wants to stay with Gene and SGM wish them well in their walk with the Lord? I know, I’m dreaming. But yeah, it’s a sweet dream.
May the Lord bless, and keep you, brethren in VA! May HE direct your steps. and may HE be your guide and the one in your focus, at all times.
Battle Cry said
”
Are the current issues at KWCC a result of?:
a. Character “issues” with GE.
b. GE simply functioning in the dysfunctional system of SGM which endorses and mandates this type of rule/authority.
c. Both a and b.
d. None of the above.”
It would have to answer “c.” Gene Emerson certainly has character issues but the system is allowing him to remain in place. As I have said before, Gene’s actions, especially his whithholding the truth, clearly disqualify him from being an elder/pastor. Why this isn’t clear and a black and whiite issue with SGM Leadership sadly shows a lot about the group’s true integrity.
As has been pointed out before, one the reasons (excuses some might say) for forcing Larry Tomczak to step down was his lying about something about one of his kids. Now the same group is allowing another leader to remain who is guilty of the same thing. It is just appalling.
Even if SGM Leaders don’t have authority as Dave Harvey claimed, Kingsway is ruled by a corporate board as required by law. If either Harvey or Mahaney called each of the other board members of Kingsway and said that he felt that Emerson had to step down and/or remove him from his position do you not think that these other board members would do that? I am sure they would easily have at least a majority of other board members that would vote that way.
With this not happening there is something wrong with the system and group to lack this integrity.
Stunned….Appreciate your post 9/24— great analogies!! You bring points to the forefront we need to see and hear— as Irv said, you do have a way with words!Thankyou!
KingsWay…just want to rejoice with the others here for your time of Worship Thurs night–
May the Lord continue to uphold you all in His steadfast love and strength.
Stunned,
Great post. Glad to hear Irv gets to keep his head! Behind the scenes, he has been a tremendous source of wisdom and encouragement to me and Mr. (not so) Happymom (with certain individuals in SGM) Along with Jim, Carole, PK, & PD.
As for tacky sweaters, we seek them out for our annual Tacky Christmas sweater party!
Appreciate the moment of levity!
happymom, I rejoice with you that God has given you Irv. I can imagine he would be a comfort as well as an encouragement as a friend and brother. I am always amazed at how well he has taken my abuse…er… teasing.
Love the Christmas tacky sweater party theme!
Here is an interesting article on pastor accountability.
More thoughts on anonymity: To Name or Not to Name is each one’s choice, and there are good reasons for either choice. One of those “in all things, love” things. Early on, though, I made a decision to write things ONLY as if I were posting under my own name, so as not to allow anonymity to become a protection for being unreasonable. The computer screen can become a shield from behind which we can take pot shots — anonymity can make it easier to be nasty, or to get into devious conjecture.
Recently, I was bothered by someone’s conjecture that perhaps SoandSo was being kept in position because he might know too much about SomeoneElse’s sin, etc. This kind of loose conjecture bothers me. So I know that if I post only as if everyone knows who I am, I’m more careful to write thoughtfully.
It’d be kinda cool for every church to have a blog-like method for people to ask questions, anonymously or by name at their own choice. We often see invitations for people to come ask questions — many of us did that in SGM, but instead of answers, we received judgments and punishments. Asking questions should be seen as a good, healthy thing — not as something that needs to be squelched. And the number of questions asked is a pretty good indicator of how well the subject matter is being taught. Teach it, preach it, and open up a healthy method for questions from the Bereans. and the just plain confused. If nobody has questions, then you probably taught it pretty well.
The Kingswayers have been confronted with truth that many of them did not realize before this happened: that SGM is not going to change its polity. Many of us prayed for this a long time ago, but the message from DH was pretty clear. It ain’t gonna happen, folks — in fact, it may get worse.
Even if members can accept that this polity as a workable biblical choice, this situation has shown that the accountability factor, and therefore, the entire system, has broken down.
So, if members wish to stay at Kingsway in order to preserve relationships, they have to accept that polity is not going to change; that this kind of thing probably will happen again because of the flawed polity; and that if they stay, they will have no voice in the future of the church. Their value to the organization is not in their ministry gifts, but in their financial contributions. The leadership will try — and appears to be trying — to become more open and transparent, to be more accepting of diversity, etc, but their view of an elevated clergy will affect every decision & every ministry. Instead of reaching out to people to teach them how to use their gifts (equipping the saints for the work of ministry) they will continue to stiff-arm the laity into hiring more professional clergy to do the work of ministry. The very use of the word “laity” saddens me tremendously. There should be no use for such word in the priesthood of all believers. Each one should minister with all his heart regardless of where his paycheck comes from. Those who receive paychecks for their ministry simply have the luxury of devoting more time — not more love, not more passion — to their calling. SGM’s polity denies the Reformation and embraces catholicism. They fooled us — and themselves – by wearing regular clothing. Might as well get out the collars, boys. The women are already wearing their habits!
Nickname, I was getting all ready to roll out a double amen for both of your points above. (You inspire me with the whole writing as if people knew my identity thing. thank you.) And your second point- just as awesome.
But then I got to your last line and all I could do was laugh (internally as I am in the room with someone else- but at least I sit here with a grin across my face). Thank you so much. That was so funny. And this comes from a former habit wearing chick! God bless you, Nickname, whoever you are.
They couldn’t handle being Catholic clergy, no shagging, not even with Eve Palmer and an imagination.
so sorry for the multiple same posts. I still haven’t figured this thing out yet.
Hi Suzie:
Check your email.
Thanks,
–pk
does anyone know why my post keeps disappearing?
Suzie:
Please check your email (I posted this same message after your first three posts). If there is a better email address to reach you at, let me know.
Thanks,
–pk
Question: I have been at KWCC for over 9 years and I had never heard of the word “apostle” in reference to GE until now. Is this something that was decided upon back in the beginning by CJ and LT? Or is this a new title? And is this something that GE considers himself to be? Or is this a term that others have tagged onto him? (sorry… I guess that was more than one question.)
Good question(s), Eyes Opening. Haven’t heard the “a” word being thrown around much in sgm lately, and I don’t have a time table for when terms came into and out of popularity or general usage, and I don’t know if or when things were every really defined and written down.
But the early authority figures of PDI were known as the “apostolic team”. Somewhere along the way, when a Sr. Pastor was also given some kind of authority over other churches besides his own, he somehow became part of the “apostolic team” and thereby, an apostle. Now, they were pretty quick to say they meant apostle with a little “a”, as not to confuse with the Twelve, nor to intimate these were men who had somehow passed the historic orthodox definition of the word — the one they sure couldn’t have claimed was to have seen the Risen Lord. I believe that a simple definition of the word is “one sent forth.” In that way, the SGM apostles were somehow “sent forth” from one place to another to provide some kind of oversight.
But if there was ever a published job description or written definition or boundaries on what “apostolic oversight” actually means, I never saw it. Most of us around SCR / KW just called him by his first name without much thought to titles.
I do remember one night when some kind of itinerant speaker came to town — not an official PDI guy, but somebody from California who, it appeared, had great ability to speak into unknown people’s lives — oh, wasn’t that often termed uh, “dizernment”? — but anyway, he came to town, and the pastor predicted signs and wonders, and commented that this guy was someone “we” truly believe is a modern-day apostle. Well, to my knowledge, he’s never been this way again, so I don’t know if he’s still an apostle or not, according to whatever definition anyone is putting up for use these days.
The uh, dizernment thing cracks me up. In my experience, people who use that term are often referring to “wisdom” and not to the gift of “discernings of spirits” All of us, as we mature in Christ, will hopefully demonstrate discernment in our lives — but not all of us have the supernatural gift of discerning of spirits.
My impression was that the word ”apostle” as used as an office in SGM may have become an embarassment to them as they began to travel within the more educated Reformed circles.
I may be all wet. Thanks, Lord, for the rain.
To all KWCC members on this blog and on the fence about what God is calling you to do. I was in prayer about this situation, although (not a current member I was for 10 years) so I am burdened with what you and the rest of KWCC are going through. I am also burdened for God’s glory through this. As I prayed for you all the other day I was struck with the need to confess to the Lord my own lack of courage that caused me to leave this fellowship when I did and struck with the need to exhort you all to do what God wants you to do!! Don’t let emotions or even opinions on church polity guide you…let the Lord guide you. If you are uneasy about leaving, wait on Him. You say…but it has been so many years that I have struggled with this issue…remember Joseph and God’s faithfulness to him as he waited 20 years in jail for the most part, remaining faithful to God. God may want to continue using you in that fellowship or He may have another plan but it will be revealed in His perfect timing. No matter what the opinion or even appearance of church leadership…Jesus is still the head of the church in reality. If change needs to occur in KWCC leadership opinions and theology and leadership style (which is apparent) it will occur in God’s timing. If God has other plans for you, again it will occur in His timing. Be a Mary, sit at His feet, nurture your love for our Savior and He will lead.
Welcome Steve B. and thanks for your prayerful perspective.
I can’t improve on that advice.
Eyes Opening, I can’t comment on the title of “apostle” for GE. But it seems Nickname has a pretty good handle on it. We await any other comments on that subject from those in the know.
P.D.
Eyes Opening,
You might want to check out a message given by Dave Harvey in 2008, at Kingsway, titled “Why Apostles?” that you can find at http://www.kingswayaudio.com/?p=289
And the Sovereign Grace Ministries explanation of Apostolic Care that can be found at http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....cCare.aspx
I’m still listening to the first reference but since Dave is giving the message I think we can conclude that it will fall in line with what the SGM leadership subscibes to. The second reference is a general overview that provides a simple foundation of the use of apostalic teaching within SGM.
(matt 10:16)
What a blessing to have so many folks lifting KingsWay up in prayer!! We are in a desperate place and are crying out to God!! Many of us have very heavy hearts and are fighting in the Lord’s strength. Having been a part of the church for 20+ years forces me to be engaged in this process … this is not the ‘business of the leaders.’ This is the business of the church … and yet there’s an appropriate question about whether the church even does have a say (according to polity of SGM). I am so thankful for my husband and other men (and women) who are communicating openly with leaders, hoping to be heard.
A godly woman sent out this short “word” this week and it really resounded in my heart. The Lord reigns!! The Lord is mighty in battle!!
“There are issues that have needed to be sorted out and brought to new level of clarity and proficiency. I am now giving you the wisdom and direction you need to achieve this position. What seems to have been really complicated and difficult will suddenly become a simple matter of perspective and adjustment, and you will recognize My supernatural intervention as you breathe a sigh of relief, says the Lord.”
Proverbs 2:6-8 “For the LORD gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding; He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk uprightly; He guards the paths of justice, and preserves the way of His saints.”
Dear Carol and others at KingsWay: Carol, thankyou for your communications and for sharing this word. Greatly encouraging to ‘hear’ you say: “…Having been a part of the church for 20t years forces me to be engaged in this process…this is not the business of ‘the church leaders’…this is the busines of the church.”– So may of you there have answered the Spirits rousing and are ‘awakened’—and you are choosing to obey His Voice—we so rejoice over this!! Know you are being prayed for and many are standing with you—because you ARE the church…Jesus IS the Cornerstone—He came into the world with the proclomation of the angels as a SAVIOR— not a lawgiver—
Prov 2:6-8— Many men and women at KingsWay are proving this scripture— we see this Word of God in life among you who are engaged in this warfare……
Who is the King of Glory?? It is the Lord—mighty in battle
Steve Butler, thank you for your post. It was encouraging to me on many levels, however, one comment you made left me uneasy. You said, “If you are uneasy about leaving, wait on Him. “ Of course I believe that we should always wait on God for His answers, His direction, His instruction and His will. So with that said, every single person I know who has left their SGM church was uneasy when they left. They prayed and prayed, thought and thought and left with uneasy feelings. Had they waited until they were not uneasy, they might still be there in the bondage and servitude of SGM. Many of these people had been in their SGM church for years (some 20+) and they were not only leaving their church building, they were leaving their church “family”. They were leaving their close friends and their children were also leaving their close friends. Their whole life as they knew it was changing. They knew that their lives were never going to be the same. So, uneasy, absolutely! Was leaving the right thing to do, absolutely!
Quite honestly, I saw people using “waiting on God” and feeling uneasy as an excuse not to make a decision. The decision and breaking away from the “security” of SGM was too difficult and those people are still there today. When God removes the blinders and you see the deception, you see the abuse, you see the wrong doctrine, you see the lieing, what would He want you to do? Would He want you to stay in this environment and for those of you with children: Would God want you to raise your children in this environment?
Many have thought that if they stayed, they could make a difference and help “fix” things? In some cases with church issues that could be true, but not with SGM at this time. The leaders have proven over and over that they are not willing to change. They will not change their polity and the very attitudes that have left this movement in the condition it is in today. Church after church have imploded and we see them digging their heels in even deeper. (Dave Harvey’s recent messages at Kingsway make their stance very clear.)
What does the Word of God say when we are exposed to evil? FLEE! So, please do not let uneasiness be the determining factor that you use to decide to stay or go! Some of this uneasiness may be fear of the unknown. The uneasiness may also be God speaking to you that something is very, very wrong. He may use your uneasiness to propel you out so that you can find a healthy church – one that is truly worshipping Jesus Christ and one that will allowi you to walk in freedom and experience the fullness and abundance of all that He has for you and your families. Is it easy? NO! Is it worth it? A resounding YES! YES! YES!
It’s not rocket science: if you feel uneasy, it is most likely because there is something to be uneasy about.
We are all the church. your particular group of believers, my dearest KW brethren, is not the church. We are all the church.
If you are uneasy worshiping at KW right now, come and join with us in the worship of the Living God.
If you spend Sabbath mornings tied in knots and focused horizontally, you are not worshiping. You are worrying.
Why is it so difficult? You will not worship with friends on Sunday morning, perhaps. Instead, you will worship with new friends. If your KW friends are true friends, you will be going out to eat with them later in the day, or hanging by the pool on Saturday, or getting together for game night on Thursday.
If they shun you, refuse to hang out with you, refuse to pick up the phone, refuse to let their kids hang with you, they were not your true friends.
We are not called to hang with the Homies on Sunday morning.
We are called to stop everything on the Sabbath and to come, worship and bow down before the universe-breathing King of Kings. This happens all over Richmond…and in every other town in the country.
Don’t miss the opportunity to do so because you are so tied to people that you can not imagine not being with them for that ninety minutes a week.
Why do we think that we need a strong move of the Lord to decide where to worship?
Can you support this thinking from Scripture?
We love you, KingsWay, and pray for you to find joy and freedom!
Could someone on this blog, who has been uneasy at SGM and left, tell us that you REGRET that decision?
That you SHOULD have stayed in an SGM church???
Fred,
Well said.
Thank you Luna Moth!
ha ha haha, nope RT, I can not say I EVER regretted leaving. I WAS uneasy. Terrified, really. Grief stricken, too. But have I EVER once wanted to go back? Not for one cotton pickin’ moment. Do I LOVE my friends from SGM? DEF! Did I find out who my real friends were when I left? Yup. Am I still sad over the lost friendships? Once in a while but more sad that the friends I thought were friends, weren’t. Yet also incredibly grateful for the true friends I had there and still have. (Love you guys!)
Good question, RT. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Fred, Appreciated the points of your post yesterday.— I know for us—the ‘feelings’ were uneasy—yet there was a ‘knowing’ we must leave…and in a sense, step into a whole new realm of Christiandom…but as one of my ‘waterlettes’ stated… ” I will never ever place myself or my children under the counterfeit authority of SGM “— Going forth…….
Ditto, Stunned, ditto!
Well said Waters! Absolutely true for me and many that I know - Very uneasy but knew we had to go! Leaving was absolutely the RIGHT thing to do. Also knew that there was great and grave DANGER in staying. Hoping that those at KW will not let the uneasiness keep them there. No regrets here!! None, nada, zilch!
That was my experience, as well, Waters.
KeepinStep– I pray you and your family are strengthened in the Lord and knowing His leading and redemptive care. — We now refer to our story as “Our Great Story of Deliverance” !
On 9/24, poster “Been Around” notified the Refuge of the Peacemaker Mediation Update. Why the Mediation process? Quote: “…There are times in our life together as a family where we simply need help resolving issues, which God uses to keep us humble and dependent on Him.” (GE condenses the KingsWay upheaval and revelations of lies, coverups, slander and control by leadership into “issues” they simply need help in resolving).
Does Peacemakers realize they are mediating on a ledge of the Grand Canyon— SGM Polity on one side and the “Living Stones”, the Brethren on the other?? Will Peacemakers enter the process with bias due to their close relationship with SGM, CJ Mahaney and their partnership in Conferences??
Reportedly, Paul Cornwell, “an experienced conciliator from the Institute for Christian Conciliation, will be with us Oct 9 & 10, to BEGIN mediation. This is a wonderful provision for our church! Please pray for extending charitable judgements and maintaining a spirit of unity in preparation for these meetings.”
Charitable judgements??
‘Charitable’–kind and forgiving in judging others; lenient
As Christians, we are called to always forgive–and indeed, our Lord enables us to genuinely do so in the most heart-wrenching circumstances in life. A N D…we must discern when we will not abide with or walk with or place ouselves under the ‘authority’ of those who would choke life from us. For this would be the very antithesis of a Christian living by the Breath of God and the Spirit of Life.
The Peacemakers Christian Conciliation website states: “Christian Conciliation is a process for reconciling people and resoving disputes out of court in a Biblical manner. The process is conciliatory rather than adversarial in nature – that is, it encourages honest communications and reasonable cooperation rather than unnecessary contention and advocacy.”
Will Mr Cornwell dissect SGM Polity, Biblically (by that, I mean by the actual Word of God, no twisted definitions) to bring about………..what??? Resolution of ”issues” ???
Will the KingsWay congregants be REQUIRED to automatically trust a pastor and a denominational polity which slanders and silences and abuses the Brethren ???
Peacemakers has accomplished much good in various cases. The KingsWay upheaval is far more serious than “we simply need help resolving issues.” God has equipped the KingsWay Band of Brothers (and Sisters) to expose evil deeds and twisted and perverse SGM Polity. In Acts 5:1-10 God reveals to us HIS very serious advocacy for speaking truth to the Brethren in His church. Lying to the Holy Spirit was arrested and stopped.
KingsWay Brethren……. we and many others are still praying for you…May God touch your mouths and make your words as the pens of His ready writers..that you walk in the Light as He is in the Light, speaking and testifying of Truth to dispell and shatter duplicitous SGM verbage….we stand with you and look to the gates and proclaim:
“Lift up your heads, O you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of Glory may come in.
Who is He, this King of Glory?
THE LORD ALMIGHTY—
HE IS THE KING OF GLORY.” (PS 24: 9-10)
Excellent post Waters! Words flow from your fingertips like streams of living water bringing forth Truth and Life! Your words are also like water falling over the rocks and cliffs (as in a waterfall) with the dunamis power of the Lord exposing the evil of SGM but bringing forth the Word of God!! Keep writing! We need to hear what the Lord is speaking to you!
For those who are contemplating leaving their SGM church, especially those at Kingsway, look no further than to Abraham (Abram at this point), Genesis 12:1-3. If Abram had not obeyed God but had stayed in the comfort of his family and his family’s house and had not gone out to a brand new land, he would have totally and completely missed the blessing that God had for him and his descendants. He would never have had a great name. He would never have been a great nation! All the families of the earth would not have been blessed through Abraham. Because he did obey God, all of God’s promises to him were fulfilled.
Scripture does not tell us Abraham’s thoughts and emotions concerning God’s command to him but we can imagine. We can imagine the conversations with his wife and other family members. Because Abraham and his family were human, there must have been uneasiness, anxiety and even fear of the unknown. But there also must have been a great excitement over what God was doing and the new journey ahead! Abraham was a man who believed God and trusted God. He obviously knew that God was faithful and true to His Word! Abraham was a man who obeyed God. Abraham had faith to risk everything that he had including his great wealth. He had faith to trust god. He did not rely on facts and circumstances alone. He “saw” beyond what his eyes and “saw” with eyes of faith. He had the faith to surrender all to God and “to sacrifice all things that were precious to him in order to please God!” He is a wonderful role model for us to follow for his faith is recorded in the great hall of faith, Hebrews 11!
PK, for some reason, I am not able to edit my posts any longer. Is there a “fix” for this? Thanks and hope you and PD are doing well.
A few days ago I was reading in preparation for a Bible study. This verse jumped out at me in regards to SGM:
Rev 2:2...and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
These believers were commended for testing those who call themselves apostles!
Did you also catch this -that they call THEMSELVES apostles. They have self-appointed themselves.
And believers, just simple normal church folk, are COMMENDED for testing these self-appointed ones. To see if they were of God or not of God. This is holy work – the testing of apostles.
If they are true, they will join God in commending the brethren for testing them.
However, I imagine self-appointed ones will not want to be tested and will probably make the case that testing them is a sin.
Kinda puts a different spin on “touch not Mine anointed” doesn’t it?
Ya’ll,
As we are seeing through eyes of faith…”the evidence of things unseen”…..
Lets remember to pray pray pray……..I recall a few days ago, Stunned wrote that there is quite possibly an attack. We need to keep those on the forefront, PK and PD in prayer.
Also, the congregants of KingsWay (who are probably currently ‘silenced’ as they prepare for the Peacemakers mediation processes, interviews, statements etc etc) and the leadership of KingsWay and SGM enterprises.
When that which has been ‘hidden’ in the dark for so long is now exposed— we may fully expect a confrontation. Praise God — He has provided for us!:
Eph 6: 10-12 (and 13-17 the specific armor )
“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devils SCHEMES. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”
And Nehemiah 4:1-14
Remnant, wow. Excellent point. Thank you for sharing.
Remnant — Thats an eye opener — as you said “just simple normal church folk are commended for testing these self-appointed ones.” (!!!!!) So… looks like these church folk stood together, and actually had a ‘voice’ and exposed sin in self-appointed leadership…..
God is at work in SGM, KingsWay in particular. Although I left the local church feeling stifled spiritually I still believe God has plans for this body of believers. I read today Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord.” I am praying fervently and encourage you all to continue praying fervently for God to take the heart of the leadership of KWCC and all of SGM and “turn it wherever HE wills” In many ways it seems the leadership needs to get out of the way of the work of the Spirit, come along side the body, and encourage and equip as is their job description, and send them out to do “battle.” Ephesians :Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us…
KingsWay,
Praying for you who are walking through the Mediation process this weekend
PS 43: 3- “O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me.”
–That the Light of Christ, His very light will keep you in clear thinking, not to be disarmed or convoluted by any shifting shadows or duplicitous words from SGM leadership.
– That His very Truth, will be your sword and your strength
–That no weapon formed against you will come to fruition
–That Jesus the Christ, the Cornerstone of the Church will be glorified and exemplified in your statements,testimony and confronations. He reigns, He is your Lord, mighty in battle
For the Peacemakers Conciliators and the KingsWay members going through mediation:
In recalling PS 89:14– “Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of Your Throne.”
– The very FOUNDATION of the throne of our Holy God is Righteousness and Justice.
A foundation holds up strength and stability and soundness for all to be built upon.
Deuteronomy 16:19 – “Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe,
for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise, and twists the words of the righteous.
Follow justice and justice alone, so that you may live in peace and possess the land the Lord your God is giving you.”
—*definition, ‘pervert’– misdirect; to change or misapply the meaning to;
to misinterpret; distort; twist; corrupt; to cause to turn from what is considered right
KingsWay, praying for you:
Hebrews 13: 20-21–
“Now may the God of peace,
who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus,
the great shepherd of the sheep,
by the blood of the eternal covenant,
equip YOU with everything good that you may do His will,
working in you that which is pleasing in His sight,
through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”