Aug
16
Family meeting comments below…
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UPDATE 10/10/2010: At 650+ comments, this thread is now closed, as even at 50 comments per page it is becoming increasingly difficult to load for some and even more difficult to publish a comment as timeout errors are now occurring.
PLEASE POST ALL FUTURE KINGSWAY COMMENTS (in this thread) HERE AT THIS LINK, at a new post titled “The KingsWay Way 2″.
Here is the rundown.
AC began the meeting with an overview of the history of what he called the “KingsWay way” of doing things He declared that the way the leadership did things was wrong and caused pain for many people. He introduced SW who identified himself as a former pastor for the first ten years of the church. He acknowledged that he participated in the church’s heavy handed leadership approach and, as he would tell, actually became a victim of the same approach.
AC took the stage again. He led into the actual story of SW being sent to the Roanoke plant. SW came up and told the story. I won’t go into detail.
GE came up and acknowledged his wrongdoing in the whole episode and they both acknowledged that God had restored their relationship.
Then MW got up and shared his perspective and led the Q&A time. It got a little heated, but not too bad. There was a great deal of anger under the surface.
’nuff said for now.
Isn’t it interesting that under the surface is where reality lies? Under the surface often conflicts with our public faces. CO’s statement of a “…great deal of anger under the surface,” speaks loudly.
That sounds remarkably decent, Cautiously Optimistic. So is this a good thing?
People were not grandstanding. Some were making comments, but mostly good questions about polity, what happened, clarification, etc. People wanted to be heard and made it known when MW tried to shut things down after three questions. The meeting was three and half hours long.
Fred, I’m very sorry to hear there is still shunning in Chesapeake. I hope you haven’t been on the receiving end.
Cautiously Optimistic, mind if I ask a question? From what you described, the church members were not letting the leaders off the hook. Could it be that they are actually forcing these leaders to take responsibility for their heavy handed leadership? Okay, one more question: if the leaders were admitting to their mistakes, does that mean there might be change coming, or will the old polity still stay the same? I believe that when church members begin to hold these leaders to a higher standard, SGM will not be able to ignore the problems. Guess I still get hopeful that reform will come but have had my hopes dashed many times. :(
Thank you for the report! I’m sorry you are no longer optimistic.
Like Canary, one thing that stuck out to me was the length of the meeting, yet someone wanted to shut it down after 3 questions. {??} are you kidding me? (lol)
Kudos to whoever allowed or answered more than that. Or to those who kept asking questions no matter what.
2nd question – is there some reason only initials are used? What are the title/roles of these initial people, other than GE? I’m thinking since the whole thread is titled by his name we don’t need initials there, right?
One more thing came to mind, Cautious, if you dont mind…..any idea why this was called the KINGS WAY? and not SGM’s way? Is this a way of insulating the mother ship maybe?
just wondering……
Defended (and others)
You can find the answer to your questions here (http://www.kingsway.cc/pastorsandstaff.php) except for own person (SW)
Defended,
All of the initials are those of pastors at KingsWay, except for SW. Although I remember hearing about an ex pastor who got pooped on, I don’t recall his name.
This took only ten years to resolve. Amazing. I guess the three couples in Chesapeake can expect a call in 2019.
Sorry-Standing By was in moderation when I was posting.
Defended — not sure if this answers what you’re asking about KINGS WAY vs. SGM’s way, but here’s a little background. Back when all this happened, the name KingsWay was not in use. When the church was planted, they named it Southside Church of Richmond — a very poor choice of words in Richmond, as the old guard of the southern aristocracy equates the term “Southside” with “Dogtown”. Apparently this widely known piece of cultural trivia blew right over the heads of those who researched the area they were “evangelizing.” After a few years, they decided to change the name, and offered four choices to the congregation — only the second time I ever remember voting or being asked for input on anything. (The first was early on – they passed out a questionnaire that asked opinions on all kinds of things, and I believe they took those answers seriously.) We ”voted” for the one that seemed least ridiculous — and none of those choices was anything like “KingsWay.” A few weeks later, they announced that the new name would be “KingsWay” — trendy sic intended. We groaned.
My phone has rung off the hook today — several different perspectives have surfaced. Some thought that the twenty-something pastor’s handling of the Q & A time was simply because he was the least involved at the time and therefore more impartial. Others thought it inappropriate that he answered questions that should have been fielded by those who were directly involved.
I understand that people I love & applaud stood up and asked hard questions. I was also told, in several different ways, that the questions were not answered in specific manners — that they were not prepared to give a specific plan on how, exactly, they’d become more open and transparent, that this would be an ongoing process. The folks who called me were disappointed in that this meeting has been in the works for several weeks, if not months — plenty of time in which to put forth some specific actions to counteract and prevent further abuses.
I’m told that someone asked the definition of gossip/slander; that someone else asked for monetary compensation for the guy who lost mostly everything in this debacle; that someone asked if the apostle was planning to step down; that someone asked for SW to be reinstated; that someone in the congregation apologized for being inadvertently and inappropriately judgemental, that someone else asked the polity questions, another question was if this kind of thing is widespread within SGM (and all God’s Refugers said Amen) etc.
I understand that one of the finest men to ever be cut off from SGM was there, but did not say anything. When he was sent to plant a new church elsewhere, SCR/Kingsway lost a huge asset in godly, thoughtful, and respectful leadership.
Please understand that this information has come to me second-hand, but this was a public meeting and this is public knowledge. I was not there, but dear loved ones were there. Several wanted to know why one pastor (DW) was not up front with the others, but instead sat on the front row with his wife. Apparently, that question was asked, but not answered.
Not everyone had the same take on the reactions of the leadership, and none wanted to judge hearts, but all of them mentioned that SW exhibited a huge amount of grace, love, and forgiveness. My question to him would’ve been “Why the heck did you stay there after being publicly lied about, gagged, and shunned?” Someone asked something similar, and he answered to the effect that he felt that he should persevere, that the first 7 years were terrrible, but he was finally able to come to peace about it. (I hope this is not in any way an incorrect summation of what was intended.)
I also understand that their previous policy of not counseling a woman unless her husband was involved was going to change.
My own take? Unless the current polity structure changes from top down in SGM, the individual changes that pastors’ make on the local level will have little lasting effect. The root of this problem lies within the hyper-authoritarian structure. They can argue all day long that their structure is biblical – and it may well be. But other structures are biblical as well, and if the current papal / hierarchal / elevated clergy / business model has produced nothing but pain and destruction, maybe they ought to just try a different angle for a while! I’d call for complete repentence, restructuring, and restoration of the priesthood of all believers, for starters.
Ten years. TEN YEARS this man suffered mightily from being publicly chastised and lied about. The effect on his friends, his family, the church, and the perpetrators themselves cannot be fathomed. Thank God that this travesty has begun to be corrected. Thank God that He is the One who restores the years the locusts have eaten.
If this were, in fact, a local church with ruling elders and deacons, they’d have the option of voting to separate from SGM, as many churches within other denominations have done. Sadly, that doesn’t seem to be probable.
Actually, what I’d love to see them do is POST THE UNABRIDGED MINUTES AND/OR SOUND RECORDING OF THE MEETING ON THEIR WEBSITE in public view. Now, there’s a step toward openness and transparency. SGM should do the same, as this situation created tidal waves, not ripples, throughout the denomination. (Yes, it is a denomination. If it quacks, it’s a duck.)
God is at work, friends, and He has a plan. Whether or not it includes Kingsway as a viable ”local expression” of His church remains to be seen.
Thank you, SAINTS of THE LORD! I admire the way my loved ones in Midlothian stood up for what’s right.
Silent Running— Thankyou, thankyou, for posting! Really rejoicing to hear the saints at Kingsway STOOD UP —and asked questions — and persevered —It is evident the Lord was with them, stirring them to do battle, in a sense, to bring the issues to light. How wonderful to hear the affirmation and restoration for SW. Praying Gods people at Kingsway will remain ‘awake’ and not be lulled to compliance by sgm corporate control.
God is shaking———- God is sifting——— He is on the Throne
Especially appreciate yor communication:
“UNLESS THE CURRENT POLITY STRUCTURE CHANGES FROM TOP DOWN IN sgm,
THE INDIVIDUAL CHANGES THAT PASTORS MAKE ON A LOCAL LEVEL WILL HAVE LITTLE EFFECT. THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM LIES WITHIN THE HYPER- AUTHORITARIAN STRUCTURE. ……….I’D CALL FOR COMPLETE REPENTANCE,
RESTRUCTURING AND RESTORATION OF THE PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS,
FOR STARTERS.’”
So far, sgm prefers the facade they have built of “the local church”.
Jesus is returning for a Bride ‘without spot or wrinke’— sgm, you have produced lied about, maligned, spiritually abused, broken sheep— will you bow to the Christ and repent of your maulings coming through authoritative polity structure??
Very good, silent. You were very accurate.
The leaders do not get that the polity is the problem. A twenty-something year old “elder” is the problem.
From Strongs:
4245 presbuteros…elderly; older; a senior; elder; old
When the NT refers to elders it means OLD PEOPLE!!!!!
You can’t declare someone to be a pastor and then say “and since the words are used interchangeably, he is therefore an elder.” That is backwards logic and a twisting of several languages.
First let me say I am glad that at Kingsway the leadership finally tried to make right some of their actions that happened a while ago.
One person indicated that Gene Emerson had knowledge of this going back a ways. I do wonder what the motivation was including what motivated Gene to finally admit some of this. Did the SGM Leaders have an epiphany or did something external push their confession such as the possibility of their actions being published somewhere like on one of these blogs?
Someone indicated that Brent D seem to spearhead what happened 10 years ago. It is possible that those under Brent D including Gene E. were that bullied by Brent that they were afraid to stand up to him while he was over them as an “apostle” in SGM? It is only now that they are able to correct this now that Brent D. is no longer a leader and can’t be a bull over them? If so, it goes to show the problem with having single people in charge at various levels with no accountability etc. or again show the problems SGM Polity creates.
Just for clarification, I am just hypothesizing since I don’t have any inside information.
Silent Running, thank you for sharing. It is absolutely mind boggling that people can behave in such an atrocious way and there seems to be such little consequences for their behavior. If their own three year olds had not been careful at the dinner table and spilled their milk after being warned not to, they would have been treated much more severely than CJ and the apostles and other pastors in this situation. Why is this? Why is no one calling for justice in this case? Mercy truimphs over justice, yet injustice does NOT trample justice and until these men repent in ashed and sackcloth, tearing their clothes and TURNING FROM THEIR SINS IN ACTIONS AND DEEDS, then Mercy has not triumphed over justice, merely injustice has trampled justice.
Silent Running – great report and comments!
Your heart clearly cares for these people and their walk with Christ – and integrity in leadership!
So, is it safe to sum up that Gene Emerson had NO real response or display of remorse for what he did to this former pastor and the lack of reconciliation for TEN YEARS??
if that is the case, what in the world brought about this meeting? Why didn’t Gene let it continue into perpetuity? He and his underlings clearly could sleep at night.
Here is what led up to this meeting.
For many years there have been appeals to let SW tell the real story of what happened. For many years he was under a gag order put in place by Brent and by Gene. With the removal of Brent, a door opened and a group of solid, mature men (the men that probably would be lay-elders if we had such a thing) started meeting with Gene and the other pastors to make them aware of the hurt that was done to SW. It took a year, but Gene came to the place where he realized the wrong and was willing to let the entire story come into the open. This is a big step, but only a first step.
There are great concerns that foundationally, things have not changed….the pastors are the only elders….there is no accountability outside of that bubble. The congregation now questions all the decisions made by the leadership over the last 20 years. They see the problem with a lack of congregational involvement. The leader have promised more transparency and more involvement…only time will tell. The problem is that people are leaving. Good people…mature Christians who, collectively, have decades of experience. And perhaps, the older ones should leave and take their wisdom to a variety of churches, new and old and bear fruit in different places, strengthening the body rather than be cooped up in a church that has too great a propensity to control them.
Not Very Optimistic
Thanks for sharing the details.
Stunned and Defended
You make good points. If Gene Emerson did what is said and kept it suppressed for as long as he did wouldn’t his actions (or lack of action) show significant character problems or inability to lead? Wouldn’t this show that he should step down at least from being a regional leader for a period of time? Wouldn’t this even be the honorable thing to do?
It sure seems like there are double standards in SGM. Some leaders in SGM have family problems and they are allowed to remain in leadership (like Mahaney’s brother in law) where with others it is used to force them out. Here this has finally come out about Gene Emerson when he recently had the VA Beach tragedy that he was involved with. It sure sounds like he should step down.
Time to lose the “called and gifted” mumbo jumbo and determine who is qualified, unqualified, and disqualified. THAT is the Biblical standard.
“But Jim, Gene did the right thing! Why criticize him now?”
Because in this case, he did the WRONG thing for 10 years. He did not bring the issue to light on his own accord because he was under conviction. A group of heroes worked for a year to make this happen. ONE YEAR.
A man’s life was ruined. “Oh gee, I’m so sorry.” What are the consequences for Gene’s actions?
It’s time for SGM to develop a doctrine of pastoral qualification and disqualification based on character, and de-emphasize the “ability to lead”, “administrative gifting”, and all the other business crap that has seeped in.
The Church is desperately seeking qualified (according to Scripture Alone), men of character. They will be followed as they follow Christ with no need of a carrot or a stick.
Over the last two years, I’ve had the privilege of witnessing pastoral repentance within SGM. Unfortunately, I’ve seen a pattern emerge in a small number of situations.
“Bro, you did such and such”. “No, I never did such and such.” “Bro, you really did.” Evidence is presented, and conversations go on for months. “Oh my gosh, I really did do such and such-I’m so sorry”. “Good job, bro.”
SGM needs to get ahead of this. Your move towards what you call autonomy still has requirements. Documents must be agreed with and adhered to.
Your next document should address qualification, disqualification, and handling of accusations against an elder. The carrot, stick, and “because we said so” will not serve you in the years to come.
Jim
Good points. Apparently Gene E. when approached on this issue didn’t show the humility that is taught in Philipians 2 or other passages. Of course without his being accountable to a group of other men Gene E. was allowed to see things as being right in his own view which happens with most people.
I am surprised that these group of men that kept bringing this situation weren’t “asked” to leave Kingsway as so typically happens when one disagrees with those “above” them in SGM. I am glad they were able to team up and get some action. Sadly men that question like this typically don’t stay around that long in SGM.
Allowing another regional “apostle” to do what he did and suffer no consequences isn’t sending the right message to other leaders in SGM. Yes I know of another regional “apostle” whose actions were questionable and initially denied what he did who suffered no consequences. I am sure that others leaders will continue to think they have immunity seeing such little happen to Gene E. Fortunately SGM Leaders fear that their actions may be reported on one of these blogs at least helps keep them in check.
Again a lot of this goes back to SGM Polity. Despite the group’s leader saying he is the “worst sinner he knows” and all this talk about “indwelling sin” there appears to be little checks and balances for leaders. If one looks at what happened to regular men in the Stanford Prison Experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....experiment ) one can see how dangerous giving one power can be. Maybe this is why scriptures talk about obeying leaders (plural) vs. leader. Again with all the talk SGM does about “indwelling sin” and “worst sinner” they would have more checks and balances. Sadly SGM is saying they believe one thing but their actions show they believe something else.
Jim said, “Because in this case, he did the WRONG thing for 10 years. He did not bring the issue to light on his own accord because he was under conviction. A group of heroes worked for a year to make this happen. ONE YEAR.”
I have to say that it is and has continued to be ASTOUNDING to me how callous sg’s leaders are to the conviction or sensitivity of the Holy Spirit concerning their OWN behavior! Honestly, could that thing about being God’s own agent in their mind must be so real and so deep that it silences the Holy Spirit’s voice in these guys’ minds? From CGL on up to apostle, HOW do all of these men see the sins of others, think they are confessing sins of their own and NOT see how they sinfully damage others? Or even seeing the sin of micr0-managing other people – being Jesus – as a sin? I was criticized for not having a “healthy self-suspicion” – by someone who persecuted me – and in 6 yrs that couple has NEVER considered what they said or did to us as sin! Even the leaders who participated in kj’s ousting have never asked or considered how they might pursue reconcilliation with us. Instead I have seen various ones within the former leadership want to somehow tell us that they are in the fellowship of victims of that abuse, but NONE have come to us in any inquiry of whether or not they participated in our abuse.
So is this just innately systemic? Is it literally taught? Is this the result of the so-called scholar’s paper on polity? Is the fear of the Lord so eliminated from their thoughts and behavior?
Is this a real deception? If not, what is this blindness? I would honestly like to know.
Jim, outstanding statement here from August 17th, 2010 at 9:34 am:
“It’s time for SGM to develop a doctrine of pastoral qualification and disqualification based on character, and de-emphasize the ‘ability to lead’, ‘administrative gifting’, and all the other business crap that has seeped in.”
Therein lies one of the big, fat nasty veins from a cancerous practice in SGM: retrofitting American business practices–no matter how ungodly those practices have become–into their theology and how the church operates (a.k.a. polity).
Why must these leaders continue to issue half-apologies (which in the end are non-apologies) while desperately clinging to their (and defending each other’s) jobs?
How refreshing it would be and what a positive message it would send if these men put their money where their lip-servicing mouths are and resigned! What price is too dear to pay for doing everything you could to rescue the church, and not your own skin? At what point do you become cognizant of how severely you have wrecked the sheep and left them for dead, and then stand center-stage with mealy-mouthed speech about how sorry you are (for getting caught) and change zero practices in your hearts, minds and spirits? At what point to you become cognizant of eventually answering to a holy God for such behavior? Is grace that cheap to you, yet you see fit to name your organization Sovereign Grace Ministries?
I see no crowns being cast at the word “sovereign” and “grace” is just a word used to rubber stamp so much crap being shoveled, bought, and sold. For once, try to rescue those words “sovereign,” and “grace,” and let your sheep stop paying the price for such ribald egos and chest-pounding.
Email after email, conversation after conversation, tear after tear and sob after sob, I am so sick and tired of how the sheep are bound up like prisoners and at the same time cast about like free floating ships bashing into each other on stormy seas because men up on stage and in the audience nurse their pride, coffers, and Americanisms dressed up in the emperor’s new clothes of your organizational semantics!
This is the church you treat like this! What does this say of your treatment of the Savior, when you keep tracking muddy footprints on the veil and train of His bride?
Have some dignity, repent, and for the sake of the sheep you at least pretend to love and care about, step down. Anything else is mockery.
–Protestant Knight
PK,
You’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.
TEN YEARS.
Gene, do you not understand how hard it is to think the best in this situation?
Jim: “PK, you’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.”
Then God help them, Jim, and I sincerely mean that with every fiber in my mind, body, and spirit. God help them reconstitute that conscience; that this searing not remain a permanent thing and that God raise their conscience from the dead. Because the price paid for that seared conscience is a dry, and disease-ridden field full of wandering or dead sheep while the shepherds are off somewhere else, mimicing each other, and busy arguing over whose statue is higher and grander.
I don’t care how graphic or grotesque my language has been; I’m being kind. Some of us have to have the guts to survey the land and pray for rain and food for these flocks; and bring in new shepherds willing to take on any amount of suffering and hardship to protect the same flocks.
–pk
If these SGM Leaders don’t like seeing their actions reported on the blogs for everyone to scrutinize what do they think it will be like when they have to give an account which is the other part of Hebrews 13:17 that goes along with what most bible translate to say “obey” your leaders.
When something like this happens wouldn’t it call for the group (starting at the top) to do some type of “Monday morning quarterbacking?” That is shouldn’t they do some serious introspection to ask what allowed this to happen in their group and what changes they NEED to make to prevent this from happening again. They should also ask themselves what other “skeletons in the closet” are out there?
I am sure there is not just one reason for something like this happening. Especially when this happens with one of their regional “apostles” it shows they must have a real organizational problem that allows something like this to happen. Something needs to be changed or this will continue.
People have talked about SGM polity being a big contributor. Something similar is what some call a “submissive pyramid” where those who move up in the organization mostly based on how submissive and obedient they are to those above them. Another thought is the group’s teaching and definition of what they consider “gossip” or “slander.” Many times for one to question a leader or policy is considered “slander.” I am sure there are other reasons.
The MEN and women of Kingsway determined to STAND UP and ENGAGE and enter the battle for justice— Saints, remember— “Righteousness and Justice are the foundations of Your Throne” (PS89:14). When righteousness and justice are trampled on and perverted under the banner of the Gospel—-I dare say God rises up off His Throne and stirs the hearts of His people to do battle.—–This battle and Family Meeting has exposed layers and layers of the effects of sgm polity in the above posts.
Jim, you said what I have often thought in my heart and cringed “You’re describing hirelings who have seared their conscience.” This is a fearful thing, indeed. For us, we can only ask this question because of experience—both in the Chesapeake travesty (all pastors and 3 ‘apostles’ –Emerson,Shank and Harvey —requiring women to remain with abusive husbands etc etc.) We have a close friend whos’ daughter was counseled by an sgm pastor to overlook the sins of a perverse husband for almost ten years. Destruction came and the pastor never took responibility. Blind to what even the unsaved would call
outrageous and cruel.——When Holy SPirit is continuously usurped by the power/doctrine of man—-a lessened sensitivity to the Lord occurs and then a result of a seared conscience can transpire. Frightening indeed. Deliver Your people, O God.
Rise up O Men of God!
Looks like the Saints in Kings Way have released the opening salvo. (AMEN! Brothers and Sisters of Kings Way, you are not alone, We stand with you!)
Remember, It is Jesus who is the ONE and ONLY head of the Church, and Captain to the Host of Heaven. (Not Gene Emerson.)
From here, I see men with a seared conscience, as Jim said.
They have dismissed the Holy Spirit in their lives.
That is a serious problem, as we know, only the Holy Spirit Sanctifies, Teaches, Comforts, Convicts, and leads to Repentance.
The term “Depraved Mind” comes to my memory. If these men do not turn back, soon, God may turn them over to a depraved mind and destruction. (They have been messing with His Bride. I think He is gonna be really ticked, don’t you think?)
PK, I see you have donned your armor again.
I do love you my brother, I’m proud to stand side by side with you.
Defender
One of the more interesting things for me, as someone who grew up in KW and has since moved on, was how MW didn’t seem to “get” what a big deal the meeting was or the significance of the anger and pain and questions asked. He didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.
AC, I believe, seemed to get it. GE kept slipping back into describing SW as being in “sinful unbelief” and that was curious–if he was apologizing, he needed to be consistent. He also didn’t apologize to the KW congregation for lying to them for 9 years–something that should have happened. And SW seemed to try to forgive GE on the part of the church, which smears his integrity with the whole thing, in my perspective.
At least the meeting took place.
Thankyou for posting, Amygirl.
Are you saying GE didNOT apologize for “withholding information” (deceiving,lying) to the congregation for 9 years??? And he DID point out, more than once, SW’s “sinful unbelief”????? And SW “seemed to try to forgive GE on the part of the church…”— ok—that all sounds like familiarly orchestrated sgm leadershipspeak. How much was puppeteered and how much was genuine??? (really, I wonder…)
Young MW ”didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.”
This is the frightening ‘heritage’ of sgm baton-passing (much touted by cj).
Where are the young men who have a fire in their spirit fueled by the love of God —and not quenched by sgm polity religousness. Ugh—thats a ‘nuther story……….
GE apologized to SW, but not to the congregation. SW accepted his apology, before the church.
Thankyou, Amygirl, for clarifying.— Any perspective on why GE would not apologize to the congregation (for these transgressions had greatly grieved many of the congregants)??
And P.S.— PK, your post above @1:24— excellent confrontation for righteous anger. Thankyou for defining sgm polity/leadership for what it is.
Thankyou for no “spinning” or nebulous verbage. Truth — sometimes its like cold water in the face——- needed to wake us up…….
Speculation: probably GE isn’t willing to give any more ground than is absolutely necessary (SW had grounds for a lawsuit, the congregation doesn’t).
But I’m not sure speculation is profitable on this point.
True that— GE’s actions speak clear enough.
PK – Brilliant post as usual. I was going to stay away from this one but find I cannot resist.
I certainly don’t feel I have anything to add as PK has so skillfully layout but wouldn’t mind speaking to your statement: Why must these leaders continue to issue half-apologies (which in the end are non-apologies) while desperately clinging to their (and defending each other’s) jobs?
I totally agree with the half-apologies which are not apologies but the false humility that is attached to these apologies is also appalling and the fact that people blindly accept this expression of false humility without the fruit of God’s grace in their lives.
While they desperately cling to their jobs – is illuminating because many of the pastors/leaders do see themselves in a job or a professional vocation which is far from what Jesus intended. Jesus raises up shepherds after his own heart. Too often the church raises up leaders, administrators and pastors to lead and care for the church after their own hearts (or vision). As a result too much of the church has hirelings not shepherds.
A hireling is first and foremost concerned about his livelihood (his job) which takes priority over the needs of the flock. Many of you have heard me say before that a professional pastor is not that much different than a professional politician – at some point job security has a greater priority than serving those they have chosen to serve.
This leads to all kinds of additional problems as well. The professional pastor has to keep a certain façade and piousness (or religiousness) to hide the reality of who he really is. And if the hierarchy would know who he really is there is the fear of being disqualified. They live double lives – the one they project and the one they know in their heart of hearts. They have to be yes men because to disagree with those over them would appear as a lack of maturity and lack of dizzernment (oops discernment). So each pastor lives with an inner fear they will be found out and disqualified.
And to the last point – and “defending each other’s jobs”; I can give you more examples that I care to of men who turned on other men in vicious and underhanded ways when they saw the way the worm was turning. It is one of the ways they get rid of men that disagree with them. The manipulation is off the charts. They appeal to men’s selfish ambition and they are revered when they help the apostles remove a trouble maker within the ranks. I could go on and on about this but I will pass this time around.
Certainly those at the top do what they have to do to protect each other. One of the scriptures that was used when I was a PDI pastor that was (and is) used quite inappropriately; “Be on guard yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood” The priority in this scripture in their minds is first be on guard (for) yourselves and then the flock; Hence the elevation of their own importance over the flock.
What they forget is the shepherd lays down his life for the sake of the sheep – they got the ‘be on guard for yourselves” but sadly forget what a true shepherd really is. What I read and see through the comments and posts doesn’t surprise me about what is going on with Gene and the others. What does surprise me is that leaders last as long as they do in the SGM churches.
Amygirl — hope you’re growing and going in grace these days!
To those who were there: Did anyone ask about other suspicious pastoral exits over the years and if we were told the truth or only half-truths in those situations? Oh, there are so many questions.
I particularly remember a beloved red-headed caregroup leader who decided to go to another state and plant a new church. The SrPastor announced from the pulpit that he could not support such a move — which was a pretty strong condemnation. Several folks bailed out at that time — and some who stayed were hoping to have this issue discussed at Sunday’s meeting as well. I understand that, years later, when the couple returned to town for a visit, GE apologized to them personally. But to my knowledge, and PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong and man, I do HOPE I’m wrong, there was no retraction or apology from the pulpit to the congregation for the public condemnation of their ministry. How can any Christian oppose, condemn, or otherwise fail to support the spread of the gospel?
Where do these people get off thinking they are to pronounce approval or disapproval of someone else’s perfectly moral, perfectly legal, personal actions? Language that measures the “sins of unbelief and pride” is reprehensible. We are all guilty of unbelief. We are all guilty of pride. Who can quantify it? Why would anyone try?
If we use the logic of subjective sin measurement, then we could confidently say that those who’d disapprove of a new church plant are, themselves, guilty of unbelief in God’s power and ability to plant new churches. How arrogant it would be to voice such a condemnation. How wonderful it would’ve been for everybody involved if they could’ve said, “You know, we don’t understand all of this, and the idea fills us with fear and trembling — we think you’ve got about as much chance as David against Goliath — but buddy, we’re behind you all the way and we’re gonna send you off with prayer and a few hundred bucks to help you get started. And if it doesn’t work out, come on back and minister with us again, because we love you.”
About 20 years ago, there was an unexplained sudden departure. A man who’d moved his family to Richmond with the original church plant team had gone to the prequal to the Pastor’s College, and expected to become the next administrator when the position became available. But he was passed over for someone who had NOT gone to the Pre-PC. This family simply disappeared from the church with no explanation. Maybe there was a reason this person was or was not qualified for the position – but it would sure be nice to have known the truth. It could have been told with discretion. There probably aren’t many people around the church that remember that, but maybe it’d be good to get the air cleared on that one, too.
Over the years, many were put in the awkward position of having someone say to them, “We sure do miss you doing ___________in the church these days. Wish you’d still serve in that position.” ‘What their hearts heard was “Why’d you duck out on the responsibility of using your gifts?” But the truth was that they’d have loved to continue serving, but were dismissed or replaced by the pastor’s whim– and weren’t free to say so because it’d be considered disloyal, prideful gossip or slander.
There are secrets that should be kept. There are matters of discretion. These aren’t those kind of matters. KW – you’ve made a great start on coming clean. Keep going. Read the book “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”. If you’re like me, you’ll recognize yourself both as a perpetrator and a recipient, and healing can begin.
When I first started reading the blogs about 18 months ago, I was fairly confident that nobody from Kingsway was commenting here — everyone I knew looked so status-quo, SGM gung-ho, right down to speaking Gene-ese, homeschooling, and living in the Promised Land — oops, Walton Park.
But you proved me wrong — and I’m so glad to know that you came to that meeting prayed-up and prepared — that you were honest, loving, and courageous on Sunday night — that you stood up and asked hard, thoughtful questions.
Love to all of you.
Waters – exactly right here:
Young MW ”didn’t show any sort of comprehension of the gravity of the situation.”
This is the frightening ‘heritage’ of sgm baton-passing (much touted by cj).
Where are the young men who have a fire in their spirit fueled by the love of God —and not quenched by sgm polity religousness. Ugh—thats a ‘nuther story……….
That triangular submission thing is so very alive and well!
As I looked at that babyface in the pictures on the website, to get straight the initials, I couldn’t help but think about the fact that, 10-15 yrs from now, unless his wife has Mahaney as a maiden name, MW could find himself in EXACTLY the same place as SW if he crosses the wrong person! How could he not remember and think about how this man was viewed – (when he was, what? 14?) when he was in the congregation with just his aspirations?? Does he really see himself as bulletproof from this same kind of abuse? He better look around because I’m willing to bet finer men than himself have been persecuted and de-throned and he is NOT as invulnerable as he thinks! Has he not read the Proverbs about thinking you are standing right before falling?
(where’s that self-suspicion when it could really come in handy?)
Irv said:
“While they desperately cling to their jobs – is illuminating because many of the pastors/leaders do see themselves in a job or a professional vocation which is far from what Jesus intended. Jesus raises up shepherds after his own heart. Too often the church raises up leaders, administrators and pastors to lead and care for the church after their own hearts (or vision). As a result too much of the church has hirelings not shepherds.”
One other problem (and has been mentioned before) that perpetuates leadership abuse and prevents some of those in leadership from questioning things they know they should is they are dependent on SGM for their support. That is how they make their living. Many would be hard pressed to
One advantage of having lay elders aren’t on the SGM payroll is that they aren’t dependent on SGM for support. In fact SGM is dependent on them for the support they give in tithes and offerings. It is a lot easier for someone to question things and bring up issues when he knows it won’t have an affect on his livelihood.
Thus another argument lay elders. As one pointed out, there was a lay group that pushed this issue and pressed Gene on what he did. From what I understand none of these men were on the SGM payroll. It sure makes the argument for having elders that aren’t on the SGM payroll.
Silent, a hearty “AMEN” to the affirmations for the people at KW who were “honest, loving, and courageous” on Sunday night! Their voices, engagement, and God-honoring perseverence is HUGE. Do you hear their voices sgm??????????????? The voices are coming from the Bride — the Bride you seek to control and manipulate and lie to, in order to perpetuate your corporate agenda. Why oh why do you not have the fear of God in your uncovered patterns of absence of compassion,discernment,care,truth………..
Will you continue to schedule “Family Meetings” offering nebulous ‘apologies’ and continue on in your abusive manner???? Thats called a “whitewash”. Read about it in the B-i-b-l-e. Please.
Grown men who are church leaders being bullied by their leaders into lying, deceiving, not speaking the truth and not standing on the side of the weak?
I have seen more strength, courage and loyalty from 5 year olds on the playground, standing by their friends or standing up for what is right, no matter the consequences. SGM people, why do you stand under mere child/men when there is a world of better people, better human beings, humans who love God and love the world and His people? I have never asked this before, but this if this report is only partially true, this is disgusting and vile and I cannot understand how one person could be left standing in an SGM church once they know what kind of evil and deception is going on at the highest levels. And don’t even for a second think that CJ’s hands are not dripping with the blood of the people at Kingsway on this one. I can hire an assassin to go do my dirty work, doesn’t mean I’m not guilty because I tell him I don’t want to know the specifics. (Which I assure you he’s been told, whether he wanted to listen to the person tell him this or not.)
CJ, thou art the man.
I shake and I quiver inside my soul and inside my being. God has already begun a great work. A great work of repentance. One which CJ must hear. One which he MUST embrace and accept, along with the painful barbs that come with it, along with the agonizing realizations of what he has wrought in the lives of thousands of souls. CJ, you MUST repent. In loud wails and tears. In bitter gnashing of teeth. You MUST fall on your face before him and before every soul that you have affected. Time and again. In every hall, in every high place, in every low location where you have spread out your arms and declared God is Lord, while at the same time trampling His beloved, His sheep, the apple of His eye.
You must spend the next years of your life going to the ends of the earth, seeking out those you have harmed, have damaged, have misrepresented the Lord to. You must not rest until this work is done. CJ, I fear for you. I fear for your soul. I fear for the ears you have stopped up against the cries of the people (not YOUR people CJ- God’s people and His creation), for the eyes you made blind to the pain and suffering of the people of God, of the people of this world.
The Lord will tarry and prepare you, but He will not wait forever. There will come a day that will be uglier than all of the repenting you need to do… if. If you do not respond to all the cries, from the tiniest voice to the loudest. From the men to the women. From the smallest of babies to the eldest of the people. To those who have gone to those who are still with us. You must hear what the Lord is saying through His people and through His creation. You have taken things on yourself you ought not to have ever taken on. Now repent, dear brother, repent.
Forget the great things you think of and want. Forget those and think only to love. Love. LOVE. Learn what that is. Go to children. Learn of them. Go to women. Learn from them. Go to hospices and homes for the elderly. Humble yourself. Determine that you will do nothing but learn. Learn and serve in the “lowliest” of ways. This is greatness in the sight of the Lord.
Me too, Stunned, me too. To be in the position to long for Him above all else—
and thus, rest in Him…. both in battle and in peace as we journey……..
“Come, let us worship and bow down,
Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
For He is our God,
And we are the people of HIS pasture
and the sheep of HIS Hand.” (PS 95:7)
Beautiful, Waters. Thank you. Time to drink in His words, I think.
Thank you Waters and Stunned. So true, all of it.
My comfort, re: abuse of the Bride is that God is a jealous HOLY God.
It’s in the context of reaping and sowing that He says “I am not mocked”
God DOES protect His name, His reputation, and this abusive system MUST implode because it ultimately is an assault on God Himself.
As for the precious souls of all those who call themselves leaders in sgmville, well that’s where my heart breaks that they have hardened their hearts against God’s people, and can’t even hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit concerning His precious children.
Waters, that passage is part of a very old Ted Sandquist worship song (from the 70′s?) that I grew up in the Lord singing. I think I’ll sing it again just now; thanks.
Yes, I was singing it too, Defended! Gods ‘heart’ is so often heard in the Psalms — what a beauty we have to read His Word to and over us…………….
Jim or PK, or whoever runs this blog now – where can I find out what Jim meant by this comment ? “I guess the three couples in Chesapeake can expect a call in 2019.”
One thought occurred to me about Gene Emerson is that he has been around and working for C.J. Mahaney since the group’s beginning when it was called Gathering of Believers in 1977 or maybe even earlier. With that being the case Mahaney knows he can trust Gene E. to do what he wants him to do which might not necessarily be the right thing but what Mahaney wants. Thus IMO Mahaney wants to have someone he can trust (maybe even control) and thus would be reluctant to force Gene Emerson to step down unless there was real pressure to.
I am sure that a similar situation exists with Steve Shank.
True…we Christians have that propensity to want to look to a man-king instead of the King of Kings…..Perhaps that is why in Revelations, the One Who is described as
“….His Voice like the sound of many waters…..and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.”(Rev 1:15,16),
implores to each of the category of CHURCHES to……”He who has an ear, let him HEAR
what the SPIRIT says to the churches.” (Rev 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:29; 3:6; 3:13; 3:22).
Stunned, I am effected by your post — you have brought to light the reality of the
Holiness of God…..and His great love and defense of His own. —— He is a Redeemer—
He goes after—rescues—and restores His own. And HE hears the cries of His battered
Bride– even when sgm and the bigboys on the Gaithersberg hill do not.
Nauseated
To answer your question, it took about 10 years for what Gene Emerson did to the ex pastor to come to light and for Gene Emerson to at least partially admit the wrong he did. Jim was facetiously indicating that it might be 10 years before Gene Emerson admits his errors at the VA Beach Church which would be 2019 (10 years from when it happened).
I wish, wish, wish that with all my heart I desired to have God as my king and my only king. I wish that I wanted no other man to follow. Oh how I wish I could say with my entire being that it is God alone that I want to be my leader. But it is scary.
It is so scary. That would mean trusting Him to do His work. I can not see Him. I can not hear His voice audibly. I must simply learn to trust Him to lead my gut and bring good, honest intergrity filled friends into my life to encourage me. “Encourage one another daily, as long as it is called today (I’ve never met a day not called today yet) so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” Funny, we all think that having someone around to tell us of our sin will keep our hearts soft to the Holy Spirit and will keep us from sinning. Turns out it’s the ENCOURAGEMENT of others and His kindness that leads us to repentace.
But do we have the COURAGE to believe that? I know I don’t. I want a man to tell me. I want someone to confirm to me that what I am doing is right. I want the assurance that I will not sin (HA like that could ever not happen for an hour of my life!). I want protection from myself and from others. You see, I fear. I fear in great big capital letters. “Fear not, for I care for your soul” means little to me. I fear and I fear and I fear. Seems the only time I am not fearing is when I am too busy being arrogant. (Gee, don’t you want to be a part of my world?)
“Have I not commanded you, be strong and courageous” is what God said to the people as He was preparing to lead them into the promised land. To lead them in without a king. They took the city of Jericho with some horns and I’m guessing a coupla old (my age) priests leading the way. Yet they still wanted a king, though God promised their king would take their sons and daughters for his own service and that they would regret it.
They still didn’t trust the unseen God. They still wanted someone to tell them what to do, where to go, how to do it.
Please dear God, change my heart so that I trust YOU and YOU alone. That I cry out for no king, that I long for no one more than you want me to. That you and you alone are all I need.
Stunned
Stunned, just the fact that you desire to desire God alone is sufficient…the Holy Spirit will do the work. He is so faithful.
He is good, Canary. Thanks so much for the encouragement. Not always easy to speak or do what He is showing us to do. But obeying His prompting is best.
In answer to the statement that Gene might apologize for his part in Va Beach/Chesapeake in 10 years: I hope the 3 couples don’t hold their breath! It seems that there was a group at Kingsway who put pressure on Gene to apologize. I would be most surprised if there was such a group in Chesapeake! Since the fallout in 2009 -2010 , there has been one faithful soul, a prophet indeed who seems to be standing alone for Truth in Chesapeake.
Fred— It is amazing there has not been any offered apologies from Gene E to the
“3 Couples” in Chesapeake. These couples were advocates for women who had been pressured and bullied by ‘pastors’ to remain with abusive husbands. The 3 Couples
uncovered KB’s attempt to implimate a new sgm doctrine (with Purswells help)
that would require women to never separate from an abusive spouse (or face church discipline/ ex-communication). For this, the 3 Couples were branded as “in sin” by Gene.
Hmmmmm actually—this is very much like KingsWay— GE didNOT come to ask forgiveness of SW on his own– it all had to be fought for by the Brethren. So— it
appears GE just doesn’t see or get his own sins against his fellow Christians. – But hey,
he’s the “apostle” (or whatever they’re called now) over several states. Scarey.
——-The one man who stands alone in Chesapeake as a vessel of Truth—
Only one man. One man who is a man. Only one. Amazing.
Any man who would counsel or force a woman to return to an abusive husband is despicable.
Agreed, Canary–Despicable. Quite so.
Waters — I can’t go into detail, as it’s not my story, but there have been situations like what you call “The Three Couples” at KingsWay, too. At least one of those women got a divorce after leaving KW and is now happily remarried.
And nothing was ever publicly said about it.
Amygirl, your report is true. Sadly, these facts of control over women are true in the sgm culture. (We personally know of these actions in 3 sgm churches). Perhaps someday there will be investigations and accountability.
sgm continues in and is strengthening their pastoral authority (they are taught in pastors college that they “stand in the very stead of God”) which seeks to disarm the Believer
from critical thinking and hearing the Lord in their lives. Anyone who seeks to control
and manipulate the Brethren, and thereby become a conduit of destruction — we should run from……..as in flee…….And dwell in the shelter of the Most High God.
Anygirl, thank you so much for the good report! Awesome. (To think some in my old SGM church would have thought of it as grevious and something that to this day, the woman should “repent of”. Repent of. Crazy.)
Everyone knows that the only who could force any type of disciplinary action on Gene Emerson is C.J. Mahaney.
One reason that may exist for nothing being done to Gene Emerson on this event or others infractions he has don is how connected to the inner circle Gene Emerson is and that he may know too much. It wouldn’t surprise me if both Gene has information on one of C.J. Mahaney’s actions that Mahaney doesn’t want out. I am sure there is a similar situation with Steve Shank which explains why he remains.
I am curious how Brett Detwiler could be forced out with him also being part of the inner circle. Maybe he was given a nice financial severance with strings attached that kept him silent?
It seems that many of the pastors who leave remain silent (like Larry T.) maybe because they think that is the honorable thing to do. A loyalty thing? Unfortunately, if Gene E. were fired, he’d probably keep silent as well. There just doesn’t seem to be any ex-leader who has the love and courage to step forward and tell all the inside scoop on SGM’s shady side.
Also, Brent D. was so much a part of the problem that to reveal SGM’s murky behavior would mean revealing a huge hunk of his own responsibility in all the control that has gone on. I don’t think he’d do that.
Canary said:
“There just doesn’t seem to be any ex-leader who has the love and courage to step forward and tell all the inside scoop on SGM’s shady side. ”
That appears to be true about the higher ranking SGM Leaders. We have heard from ex SGM Pastors and their sharing what they know about SGM’s darker side.
True, we have heard from FSGP and Irv. They have been an amazing help. Didn’t mean to minimize their input.
Few things to share:
Ephesians 4:1-3 – “I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
also, John 8:7, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw the stone.”
How do you all reconcile this Scripture with what you are posting anonymously on this page? If you step back, pray, look at Scripture then look at what you want to or already have posted, it seems inconsistent with Scripture. I don’t believe that this page and the intent is helpful to people at KingsWay, other Sovereign Grace Churches or other believers. If you have a concern, you should go to the individual. If they don’t respond, widen the circle (with humility, love, patience) I’m having a hard time understanding how you can think the right approach is to anonymously post on a website. Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Concerned said:
” If you have a concern, you should go to the individual. If they don’t respond, widen the circle (with humility, love, patience) ”
A number of us have. Many times when one tries this the SGM “turns the tables” on the person bringing the issue such as saying the person bringing this has a bad attitude etc. Isn’t what we are doing here widening the circle as you suggest or as in Matthew 28 telling it to the church?
Haven’t you read up on Jim’s story where the SGM Leader refused even to go the Peacemaker route which SGM claims to endorse?
Also doesn’t scripture state that those (referrring to elders) who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all so the rest (of the elders) might be fearful. Didn’t Gene Emerson continue or persist in sin for 10 years in this matter? Here is the passage:
1 Tim 5:19-21
19 Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
ESV
Maybe if Sovereign Grace Ministries actually disciplined Gene Emerson for his sin other leaders in SGM might stand in this healthy fear that Paul mentions.
About the scriptures you just quoted, don’t you think that Gene Emerson should have considered them during those 9 years he withheld information that would have cleared SW? Where was Gene Emerson’s humility? Did Emerson really want the bond of peace? With his sin why did Emerson throw the first stone?
SGM Leaders will usetheir teaching on what they call “gossip” and “slander” to be able do whatever actions they do with immunity. Now with these blogs and the risk that some of their actions may be reported here they are more reluctant to do what they did.
“CONCERNED” (anonymously) said: How do you all reconcile this Scripture with what you are posting anonymously on this page?
Dear anonymous brother or sister: Our story is posted on http://www.sgmesurvivors.com including the part where the pastor refused to meet with us alone, under Matthew 18. And including the part where he had no specific objection, offense or sin that is or was ever verified, yet he paraded a “trial” and judgement of us including Stve Shank.If you want to read it I’ll post a link again. Several have known enough of our circumstances to know who I am, or who we are based on that.
How about the family whose 3yr old was repeatedly raped and the church leadership, all the way up to Mahaney’s deputies covered it up quietly and protected the perverted perp and his family? How exactly does that fit with Scriptures? If you haven’t read it, please do. And measure up both sides with biblical teaching ok? please?
Who are YOU? Why do you anonymously criticize?
Please respond to Steve’s verses. We’ll all wait to see what you think.
Concerned- Well I’m certain that there are a lot of people posting here saying what they haven’t been allowed to say or are afraid to say at their SGM church or were ignored when they went to their leaders like Defended has shared. ?Is it really unscriptural to bear each others burdens .I see things differently than you when you are comparing this blog to the Pharisees who were about to cast the first stone. It looks like to me those defending the victims( this blog) are more like Christ defending the women in that story and less like the Pharisees who were about to cast the stones. The Pharisees remind me of someone else.I’m sure you can figure out who. Speak for yourself about who this sight is or is not helping.
Not Very Optimistic
August 17th, 2010 at 7:17 am
“The problem is that people are leaving. Good people…mature Christians who, collectively, have decades of experience. And perhaps, the older ones should leave and take their wisdom to a variety of churches, new and old and bear fruit in different places, strengthening the body rather than be cooped up in a church that has too great a propensity to control them.”
NVO, That is exactly what is happening in Orlando, at Metro Life, and what I believe God is doing throughout SGM. There is no way I am going to say that I “wasted” 20 years with Metro. We all can take the good that we learned, and go where God leads us.
Out of the 25 -30 families that have left, most were there 15 years or longer. That’s a lot of maturity sitting in pews while the baton is being passed over their heads to young, “wet behind the ears” kids being put in charge in areas where they have no life experience of their own.
Or we can chose to stay angry, and bitter about what SGM turned into, and avoid any fellowship. I think that God is splitting up churches and dispersing mature believers throughout our communities, to further the Church.
We feel like missionaries in our new church home where there are many unsaved coming through the doors each week, eager for the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Maybe we (I mean WE as in “my wife and I”) were growing complacent and comfortable and God decided to shake things up.
It is sad the way it is happening, but I will not allow what has happened to keep me from fellowship with other believers – whether in a church building, a school, or a home church.
My thought about “Concerned” is that he has probably been around SGM for a long time and repeatedly heard SGM Leaders claim how approachable they are that he has accepted it as truth without looking for evidence including actions to show that this isn’t the case. He probably hasn’t tried to approach a leader and seen them try and “turn the tables” on this other person. If he does see evidence that contradicts what SGM Leaders claim he either consciously or subconsciously ignores it.
One term used to describe this situation is cognizant dissonance.
For all we know the SGM Leaders probably really think they are approachable etc. After all Gene Emerson suppressed the truth for 10 years and must have thought he was doing the right thing when he was deceived. It wouldn’t surprise me if SGM Leaders similarly think they are approachable when a number of leaders’ actions have shown otherwise. It can be easy for one to think they are one way even though their actions show something else.
Defended asks a good question of “Concerned.” Why does “concerned” post using an anonymous name when he thinks it is wrong for others to do so? Is this another SGM do what I say but not what I do? It sure seems like it.
I hope and pray for God’s mercy on these churches!
Nauseated, I think your numbers must be on the conservative or charitable side. I’ve heard from a reliable source that the number of families who have left is much higher and still growing. And you are right — a very high percentage have been there for 20 years or more.
Proverbs: 8 Whoever gets sense loves his own soul; he who keeps understanding will discover good.
At first I stopped posting on the blog – believing in my heart I was just hurt and angry and wanted to find a people that who help the hurt go away or make me feel better about my side of the story. I now know where my heart is. My heart is for God’s people. For their souls….. for the family of churches….. I am optomistic….
I do have faith that God is a big God and can touch and change hearts and remove those from authority that need to be removed. To many of God’s chosen are in a SG home = somewhere!
I also can see the hearts that are praying and crying out to the Lord to touch hearts within SG. The above scripture speaks about loving their own soul and gaining understanding (wisdom)…. Wisdom will promote relationships that are essential for a good life.
How many have shunned a “GOD RELATIONSHIP”… A relationship that God actually created? Not just within the “bubble”…… But a God ORDAINED RELATIONSHIP?
I’m praying along with many of you for their “hearts”. I was asked very very often by counsel…. How is your heart Brusied?
My heart is good. My heart still loves them and my heart trusts in the Lord that he is the FINAL AUTHORITY IN ALL THINGS……
Nauseated and Vida— I was wondering how things are at Metro. —There is an interesting parallel occuring in the churches that have experienced upheavals due to exposed consequences of controling, manipulative polity and its pastors:
In Fairafax, Chesapeake, Denvers, San Diego, Orlando and Midlothian/Richmond.
All these churches and their leaders, ‘apostles’, and the men on Gaithersburg Hill are
CONTINUING in the same status quo (Authoritative destructive control) due to their”digging in their heels ” in regards to their (sgm) polity. Apparently, they have every intention of propelling forward in their corporate machine. ——- So, how sincere are any “apologies” ????? Perhaps they are sorry for the exposure and the snag it caused in their agenda. We all know there isnot the fruit of genuine repentance. Sorrow. Because the corporate machine continues as if nothing ever happened. Which means Christians will continue to be mauled and polluted leaven will multiply throughout sgm. Brothers and Sisters, keep those bandages and ointment of Truth ready — we are in battle.
I agree, Nauseated—we keep the good we received in sgm and place Jesus Christ as 1st,
as we are “dispersed” — God is shaking the church —for our household we often recount our thankfulness! What we thought was a nightmare as we confronted issues in our circumstance of leaving sgm after 19 years, turned out to be Gods great Hand of deliverance and redemption. Free of sin chains and ‘pastoral’ control. Realizing the importance of “staying awake”; and discern; and function as a ‘Berean’. Refreshed by once again truly knowing the love of God– and excited to share HIM with the unsaved.
“Thank you” to all of those who are concerned about the bride of Christ and pursued His glory and the precious brides care in your own parts of the body as well as MLC, KingsWay, and so many other churches within SGM.
I am a member of KingsWay. I know that this will likely come to the knowledge of those leaders at KingsWay and I realize the potential consequences. As I’ve questioned both the situations at KingsWay and Chesapeake I’ve already been told that I participated in “slanderous, evil, and judgemental” behavior. This was said despite the fact that I was careful, up until now, to only discuss these matters with those directly involved… leaders within KingsWay and one former leader at Chesapeake.
I was present at the “family meeting” last Sunday night. The descriptions given between this site and sgmsurvivors.com are accurate and leaving me with no real need to describe it further.
An additional meeting took place last night, Friday. This meeting was however with the care group leaders and their wives only. I’m reminded of Chesapeake with this most recent action taken by the pastors. This step is said to be a part of an ongoing plan to address the concerns of the members present at the family meeting. The next step is allegedly to have care groups meet with the pastors a few at a time, instead of the open corporate body that was present last Sunday night. It seems to be an attempt to continue to isolate individuals and not have Matthew 18 exercised according to the way it was intended. It’s yet another sad example of the confusion or denial of scriptural truth that has led to this point.
At this time, I’m not sure how optimistic to be. Many, many are still blind to the offenses committed by the pastors, not just Gene. While he was primary (excluding Brent) the other pastors have upheld the offense in their silence. They have defended it for years by denying any wrong and stiff arming attempts to bring this sin into the open, regardless of the faithful efforts of a few “heroes” that have attempted for years to reconcile the offense.
This is not an isolated offense however. Many others have been wronged and sinned against. This is a sin against the very bride of Christ and the men that committed it have not repented nor recognized that through their actions they have disqualfied themselves from leadership and instead continue to lord over the faith of those they were charged to lead, teach, protect, and love. Their offenses continue and I believe they continue because the leaders and many members remain deceived.
I could write more but do not wish to have my passion for the flock confused with anger. I love this body and these men (pastors). My heart breaks for them and the whole body at KingsWay especially but also throughout SGM. Please continue to pray, write, and allow the gifts God has given here to work for the continual building up of the body.
Thanks, Mike
Very sad, indeed. My former sgm church is still in denial.
Mike D– Thankyou. We hear your heart on behalf of the Brethren at KinsgsWay. So true, when one member of the Body is hurting– we do ‘feel’ the effects. The wretchedly sad facts that we must confront our own (former) sgm denomination in regards to mauling and muddying the Bride of Christ is so very sad.
You are correct stating the similarity with the Chesapeake fiasco and your pastors agenda of now meeting with care group leaders, a few at a time. In Chesapeake, this was their attempt to bring everyone into the same line of perspective and thinking (agreeing with them)–which would then also “weed out” the dissenters. In the process, they also wanted to meet with “Esther” alone. She refused (she is very wise) and one of the “3 Couples” men was always with her. No more bullying of “Esther” was allowed by the courageous Godly men who stood as her advocates.
Apparently, sgm leadership abide by the”divide and conquer” from within (insidious). This is all cloaked in typical sgmese speak of “transparency,the good of the church,humility”…etc…etc…etc.
KingsWay —you are a significant ‘band of brothers’ in the exposure of sgm polity.
From reports, you didnot back down during the family meeting—and you persevered for Truth and Gods justice on behalf of one of His own. You caused lies and years of deception to be brought to the Light. We continue to pray for your spiritual,emotional, and mental strength as you continue on. That God will increase the gifts of discernment — so
needed when pulling down deceptive strongholds. That the people of KingsWay will awaken and not be lulled to complacency of religous mindset. That we all keep in the forefront our first love, Jesus Christ. We arenot fighting for the ‘local church’ — we\fight for the Blood bought Brothers and Sisters and for the Holiness and integrity of the One Whom we call Lord. He IS the King of Kings.
I think that God is splitting up churches and dispersing mature believers throughout our communities, to further the Church.
Nauseated, this is an interesting comment. After we left PDI in 1997, my friend had this vision: there was a man carrying a large bag of seed over his shoulder. He didn’t realize that there was a whole at the bottom of the bag, and that seed was leaking out as he walked. My friend felt that the bag of seed was PDI/SGM. The seeds were believers leaving the church. She felt that these believers were going to be used in God’s Kingdom.
You are right – our years in PDI/SGM were not wasted ones. We must keep the good and then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places. The Lord makes all things work out for good for those who love Him. Over-taught, underutilized believers are going out into the world to make a difference for Jesus!
Waters,
Thank you.
Mike D., you are one of those heroes who are standing for truth. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
Cardinal and Brethren…… Know you are kept in prayer……..
Please remember not to take in the lying arrows that you are participating in “slanderous, evil, judgemental behavior.” (as MD reported) God gave us minds and intellect to inquire–and Jesus encouraged us to “ASK SEEK KNOCK” –if we donot engage, we will go to sleep and become complacent. The enemy always seeks to keep deceitful deeds in the dark—and mankind sometimes becomes unwittingly a part of those schemes. We need
“mighty men of valor” to lead the ongoing fight.
We are saddened that some of those who knew all the horrid details in the sin exposure and polity maiming going on in several sgm churches (our friends) chose and choose
NOT to “see”… to continue on in the status quo. This is difficult to reconcile, but we release them into the arms of the Lord and pray Holy Spirit will open their eyes and hearts.
Remind yourselves of the truths which you know. Stay in Gods Word—– pray together.
Purpose to NOT throw down your swords……the Lord will continue to order your footsteps and give you HIS wisdom. True wisdom: I Kings 3:9 —”an understanding
heart to DISCERN between good and evil.”
The Lord bless you in His unfailing Love, Waters
Mike,
You are correct. What was done to Steve and others, including what Gene did in Chesapeake are disqualifying actions. There was nothing said during the Q & A that gave me any indication that another life could not be destroyed tomorrow. One of the men Gene is “accountable” to had no idea that Steve was under a gag order until eight months ago. You briefly referenced Brent, who has become the scapegoat for a multitude of sins. Assuming that Brent “ordered” Gene to brutally destroy a man’s life (I don’t think Brent did this, BTW), is Gene a man or a little girl? Is he a shepherd or a hireling? A man, who is not a hireling, would simply say “no”.
No. I will not sin in this way. No. I will not hide my sin for ten years. No. If this is PDI/SGM, I want no part of it.
If anyone is thinking the best about gene and the worst about Brent, you are believing a lie. Gene’s brutality could not have been mandated and managed from afar. Gene did what he did.
Matthew said that Gene was not disqualified because he is pursuing repentance and that the elders have seen fruit of repentance.
Gene’s actions were so heinous that a man lost his home, and yet, Gene and his staff have absolutely no idea what restitution looks like. men have been asking them for a year about restitution, but they have NO IDEA WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
Newsflash KingsWay pastors-repentance involves restitution if restitution is appropriate and possible. Do you think that applies here?
This whole “it’s a new day here” theme was killed when Mathew attempted to shut down the Q & A. Thank God the church did not let that happen.
The course of action Mike described is manageable. The godly MEN who spoke up will not be in the same room together facing down the pastors again.
Divide and conquer while talking about community and family.
Mike D.,
May God bless you for your courage in the face of men who do not fear God.
Divide & Concur, Hmmmm, sounds like a military campaign is on. The Brave Saints stood up to the “Dictators” and the Dictators are planning to return the favor with isolating tactics and sniper fire.
As long as God fearing men and women stand firm, and stand together, (do not let yourselves be isolated, I mean it, DO NOT LET YOURSELVES BE ISOLATED,) they will only reveal their true morality. These Dictators (not pastors, not shepherds, not God fearing men,) will create a lot of smoke and noise, but they cannot hurt you. Shout everything they say and do from the housetops, (or on the blogs if you prefer,) and let God be glorified!
When they come into the care groups, ask those penetrating questions, and do not let them strike fear into you. Fear not, your advocate is mighty. Come home from those care group meetings and write down EVERYTHING they said and did. This is important for clarity, and confirmation of just how big a battle you are in.
I did this in my battle and it helped keep my sanity. If you have time, read our story here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=731
It is not Gossip, or slander if it is the TRUTH, and that TRUTH sets people free from bondage.
They (The Dictators) are ravaging the Bride of Christ.
Stand firm and expose them for the evil men they truly are.
We stand with you, and pray for God to be Glorified.
Defender
Jim, As you know, the “its a new day here” theme is trumpeted in EVERY sgm church which has experienced upheaval due to exposure of ‘pastoral’ destructive actions.
Thats there m.o. — “settle down, little darlins….it’ll all be ok— we are going forward…”
whitewash………whitewash……….whitewash………
Defender— You speak as the voice of experience, encouraging KingsWay men to NOT
allow themselves to be isolated. We pray God will instruct them. They are “allowed”
to obey God and not man. Going to meetings they so choose for the sake of Truth.
I Cor 16:13: “Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith;
act like men, be strong.”
KingsWay Band of Brothers—– many are praying for you and encouraging you on….
One problem with SGM is their view of church discipline and it only applying to regular members or those “below” someone’s “authority” vs. being something applying to all.
Early in the group’s history I remember them handing out an example from another church group that talked about the reason’s for church discipline. It specifically mentioned one of the reasons for having church discipline was to keep the sin of a leader from having an affect on the whole church. That is a possible to need to practice church discipline on a pastor in order to protect sheep in the church and the effect a leader’s sin can have on a local church.
Apparently Sovereign Grace Ministries no longer sees a need for church discipline to be applied to leaders, especially the higher up the chain of command they are. It is as if they won’t even “entertain” this need.
One use to even hear the following scripture:
Matt 5:29-30
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
NIV
as being applicable to church discipline. That even if an important leader sins and is unrepentant then apply this.
It is sad that SGM has moved away from church discipline applying to all.
I do hope people realize that there are at least 2 issues here.
1. The actions that Gene Emerson did over a 10 year period certainly disqualify him from being a lead
2. SGM polity needs to change and probably contributed to issue 1 happening.
I have serious doubts that SGM will ever act on item 2. However with regard to item 1 why isn’t this crystal clear to all involved? Gene Emerson did a number of wrong actions over a long period of time which disqualifies him as a leader. Isn’t his disqualification what SGM has taught and says they believe? Do the rules only apply to certain individuals and apply less and less as one goes up the leadership pole?
This appears to be flaming hypocrisy. Why aren’t members in multiple groups asking leaders why they aren’t practicing what they have preached in the past and supposedly believe?
Steve, you are SO right! Flaming hypocrisy. And worse than that, searing, destructive deception. How can someone NOT fear the Lord in their leadership of HIS people?
But as long as #1 is true, and there is virtually NO listening or heeding to the voice of the Holy Spirit, how can #2 ever change? That is to say, as long as MEN are in charge!
Honestly this sounds like an organization of MEN run by MEN as MEN see fit.
See, these members of sgm’s all over ACT like they belong to MEN, not God.
What a sad, sad mysterious thought, while singing and praising God but acting like the property of MEN.
Where in the world is the Lordship of JESUS CHRIST when MEN don’t even see or feel or heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit but only cave to the pressure of MEN where matters of character assination are concerned? What in the world has happened to all that concern over gossip and slander, when a man, his home, his reputation and character are sacrificed for the sake of an organization when confronted with a man who is following what he believes is the ….conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT!
Where is Jesus Christ in the hearts and minds of these so-called leaders?
And what is it that they are leading in? Certainly not Scriptures. Certainly not!
If they did lead with the Bible they would know, the enemy is NOT the flesh and blood of another man.
And what of these leaders declaring a “new day”??
WHAT ABOUT YESTERDAY? What did YOU, Mr. Leader – Caregroup leader, administrator, or pastor – What did YOU do while under that other day? What participation did you have in robbing a man of his dignity in the name of seeking out his sin? What woman was told she didn’t measure up to OTHER women, because her counters weren’t clear? Or her kids weren’t acting like robots making eye contact? Or God forbid her sons were active and deemed as unruly?
I remember being told that my 3yr old was a “young 3″ – because he didn’t sit still as long as others. YOUNG 3?! What other kind is there, for crying out loud?! Has that woman gone on to say that to other younger moms who somehow felt guilty that her 3 yr old was “immature”? I forgive her – she was swimming in the mind-controlling koolaid. But what about the man who works a night shift to provide for his family, and thereby can’t make it to care group. So what about the cgl who tells him he is UNDEPENDABLE because of it?!
How many years does that cgl go without seeing that HE participated in the system?
Honestly…are any of you who are reading this, recovering from the mind-numbing tonic of ambition, or of seeking holiness instead of a Savior, or revelling in the soundness of your doctrine? I KNOW there must be some here who were like that, right? Right?
Can anyone tell their story of coming to their right mind? Of the Holy Spirit HEALING where they were seared in their consciences? That would be such a sweet story to read.
FAR better than even a story of escape would be a story of reconciliation for the sinful leadership that has been committed. Have any of you gone to others you KNEW you wronged, instead of waiting for the refugees of the wrong to come to you? THAT report, that story, would glorify the Lord!
I know some of you men were/are care group leaders. Surely that is a place to start right?
Mike D, can you gather your care group and PRAY for GOD to be lifted up?
Can you by the power of Jesus, who will be present when 2 or more are gathered, can you pray for the Holiness of GOD to come in like a flood and purify the hearts of those who fear Him? Can you invite the righteousness of Him who knew no sin, to stand and lift up His standard of righteousness, peace and JOY as integrity and humility and TRUTH are lifte up? It’s not about the gory stories! It’s about brothers dwelling together in unity and love, and the integrity of knowing that ALL have fallen short, and need Jesus, not just the underlings of haughty leaders!
Mike D, your opening statement alluded to the possibililty of consequences because you post on a CHRISTIAN blog. Really?! Is that not obviously so very very wrong? Who judges your heart? God bless you brother in Christ.
To Him who sits on the Throne be honor, and glory and blessing.
Thanks for your comments Steve 240. You are correct, there are multiple issues here and ultimately the SGM’s low view of the church body (polity) is at the base of much of it.
Gene has wronged many during his time. Unfortunately, many at KingsWay see this as an isolated event in Gene’s life. Others understand that because Steve and Gene have reconciled their relationship that no further problem exists. They turn a blind eye or at least a naive one to the fact that sins against the entire church have been committed over a period spanning about 25 years. This was never even addressed during the family meeting. The closest that Gene came was to ask for others to come to him individually if they felt that he had wronged them during the past.
The more important matter is not Gene or any of the pastors but the matter of polity. It is the singular issue that has allowed such horrible abuse within SGM. And if it were not for such a twisted view of the authority of the elders and lack of any held by the church then even this situation with Gene would likely not have occurred.
1 Peter 5:3 speaks of oversight that is “not domineering over those in [their] charge but being examples to the flock.” Is this the example to be shown? The church is raped of all authority by the very ones called to be it’s guardians. This is clearly not the intended example.
Matthew 18:17 says, “tell it to the church.” That is beginning at KingsWay. Last Sundays family meeting was just the start. The completeness of the history must be told. This is the step we unfortunately find ourselves at. But we as a church must also hear what is implied in this statement, “tell it to the church.” With that statement comes great power, power which must not be taken lightly but held just the same as the authority and power spoken of in Luke 10:19-20. The power is not denied but it is not to be relished over either.
“Tell it to the church” … the power is implied because of the telling of sin itself. Their is no need to share sin with one that has no ability to affect but to share, in this case, with the church which has been given that authority.
Church, KingsWay, Gene is but a symptom of the true problem; his sins must be dealt with in all humility, love and truth but we are responsible for an even greater problem. This sin of “domineering over” the faith of the flock is not merely laying at the feet of the leadership but at the feet of KingsWay’s members (and SGM). We are responsible for reading scripture as the Bereans did. We are responsible for holding to the Spirit’s voice. We must not venture from historical, biblical teaching which has persevered throughout time and held together in Christ’s teachings. We must stand guilty before God if we continue to allow such sin to run unhindered in our midst. This can never become a “witch hunt” but the charges have been set forth, found to be true, and even admitted to (not publicly) by those charged and therefore, I believe, if the sins are allowed to continue it can only be because we as the church allowed it. 1 Peter 5:20 says that because persistent sin remains we are to “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest (pastors) may stand in fear.”
Church, you must ask questions without any partiality or prejudgements but only in seeking that God would be glorified.
I pray for God’s mercy on us all during this time.
Jim’s comment: “Divide and conquer while talking about community and family.”
That is a perfect one-line description of this despicable behavior among leaders; a single sentence descriptor that cannot be improved upon.
When the facade is stripped away, the heart’s true condition is seen for what it is.
God help them, and God protect us, your sheep.
–pk
Just catching up…Mike, your comments and encouragement to those affected and damaged are appreciated.
–pk
Mike, you said, “Church, you must ask questions without any partiality or prejudgements but only in seeking that God would be glorified.”
Thank you so much for that encouragement!
So, when you also said, They turn a blind eye or at least a naive one to the fact that sins against the entire church have been committed over a period spanning about 25 years. This was never even addressed during the family meeting. The closest that Gene came was to ask for others to come to him individually if they felt that he had wronged them during the past.
So, my question is, can you offer any explanation as to why a leader feels no responsibility to search his own conscience, submitting to the Holy Spirit any sense of needing to reconcile with anyone?
I have other questions but this one is probably chief on my mind in light of such a trampled trust as the dear saints of KW have given to Mr. Emerson, and so many other refugees have seen betrayed.
Mike
I admire your courage going public and the statements that you have made. I hope that other regular members such as yourself seeing what you have done will also have the courage to stand up to the Kingsway Leaders and SGM Leaders, especially Gene Emerson like you have been able to do including asking questions that should be asked.
This situation really baffles me here. Again this is something blatant. Had this been a regular pastor and not one of the top “good old boys” in SGM I am sure SGM wouldn’t have thought twice about making this leader step down. This is so far the most blatant case I have seen with SGM.
The more I think about this, it sure appears that SGM Leaders have their conscience “seared.” There just is not other explanation. How can these men not see that requiring Gene Emerson to step down is a biblical mandate?
Going from congregation meetings where everyone is present to meetings with a few caregroups at a time to discuss matters certainly is crafty on the Kingsway Leaders part. That way they don’t risk all of the congregation hearing valid questions which would then help others start to think. All I can say is that at least thoughts can be shared freely on this blog.
If people know other key leaders, especially what some call the “Reformed Big Dogs” then they should try and make them aware of this situation. Even contacting people they know in these others groups and making them aware of this would help. I am sure the more regular member whithhold of their tithes and offerings will also start to get SGM’s and Kingsway’s attention.
I just grieve when I read about this incident and wonder how men that claim to be seeking Christ can be so blind as to do some this egregious as in letting Gene Emerson remain. It must be seared consciences.
I think people at Kingsway who want change should take Mr. Emerson up on his offer – in mass numbers. Pick a weekday morning and have all those who think there are still problems to deal with line up outside his office. If there is a long enough line, that should make quite a statement.
Jim’s “divide and conquer” post has been a ureka moment for me. Now I understand! So fight that strategy with group confrontations…
Mike D, I pray your voice and heart for Gods people at Kingsway will be annointed and
directed by Holy Spirit to walk in the Light with the people there. The twisted polity enforced by sgm is being exposed……and many must take courage to see it for what it is.
Jims summary: “Divide and conquer WHILE talking about community and family”–
is the insidious sgm answer to the saints who expose their destructive unChristlike
dealings.——And as Mike D stated, it is the church, the Body of Christ, each Believer, who is called to know Scripture; be Bereans; not allow hearts and minds and spirit to be taken control of by any person or denomination. sgm polity seeks to subliminally entice the Brethren back into the law. The law — where there is no life, no sensitivity to Holy Spirit.
No sensitivity to Holy Spirit, brings lessened sensitivity to Truth and lessened
sensitivity to the cries of the broken and wounded.
C Spurgeon: “Ah! Believer, it is always safer for you to be led by the SPIRIT into
gospel liberty than to wear legal handcuffs.”
If you are led by the Spirit,
you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)
Vida
August 21st, 2010 at 7:25 am
Nauseated, I think your numbers must be on the conservative or charitable side. I’ve heard from a reliable source that the number of families who have left is much higher and still growing. And you are right — a very high percentage have been there for 20 years or more.
Vida, Those are only those that we know so I imagine there are more, but since we have not been around for about a year, all we hear is an occasional friend calling to tell us that they are leaving and who else is on the way out.
We were told that there are another 30, or so, families on the fence waiting to see how things are handled from this point.
Sadly, we don’t really get any calls from any of our friends of 20+ years, now that we are no longer a part of the church. That is something I thought only happened when one left a cult.
Divide and Conquer type isolation tactics is how the enemy does his dirty work. The lies and deception told to a few are kept from the body as a whole.
Next, will be to separate the men from the women, (even wives from husbands. SGM has a pattern of doing that.)
THAT is what set me on the warpath in my story.
Matthew 19:6 “………. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”
The enemy wants to separate The Bride from her Bridegroom.
I believe SGM is operating as a tool of the enemy. They may not know it, but trust me when I say the fruit of SGM is not all that tasty.
Do your battle with that understanding.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Jesus would have the TRUTH be told to His church. I pose that if you know the TRUTH, tell it to your brothers & sisters.
Remember, it’s not slander if it is true.
It’s not gossip if it is to bring correction to wrongs committed.
Where will things go from here?
I went to Sunday morning meeting and was surprised by the number of others in attendance. There were fewer than normal but still more than I had expected.
I had a wonderful opportunity to pray with a dear brother and former pastor at KW prior to service. We are planning further times of prayer and discussion about everything that is occurring.
I’ll get back to the service in a minute but I mentioned in an earlier post that the CG leaders were summoned to a meeting this past Friday night. The meeting did occur and I believe God directed it in a way that was hoped for by many.
The meeting lasted over two and half hours and began as expected, with the usual explanations of the history with all of the whys and therefores. The history was skewed but there were at least 4-5 men present who knew the inaccuracy of what was being told. At the end of the presentation, the CG leaders were given an opportunity to ask questions or make comments. I am encouraged by what took place next, as well as disheartened by the place that it shows us to be in. The wives who were present began asking hard questions and press for the truth to be told.
(Men, where are you? How weak have you become? Must the women take your place in the fight? God bless them for their boldness but it is your place to lead not theirs.)
Toward the end of the meeting Gene attempted to announce that they would present everything to the church in the form of a letter. One courageous wife said that this could not happen but that the church had to be talked to face to face. Many of the CG leaders responded in agreement. So many that it is reliably reported that Gene appeared shaken by the response and asked if that was the way others thought we should go, to which there was an outcry affirming the need to carry this whole matter back to the church corporately. So I am told that we are having a “redo” on the family meeting that took place recently. Round two if you will. This is huge. The attempt to divide the church into smaller groups did not go through.
–Thank you CG leaders and especially the strong women that stood in defense of the Gospel. Please continue to stand. You have a unique opportunity to be at the forefront of this fight.–
Pray that men and women will realize that this is truly Matthew 18 we are in here and not at its beginning but fully within, “tell it to the church.” This does not mean “tell it” as in informational meeting but “tell it” as in let the fullness of the sin be known to all within the church. This is the time for the entirety of Gene’s, the other pastor’s and even that of SGM as a whole, sins to be made known. Additionally, while we are focusing on humility, gentleness, patience, forbearance with one another (Eph. 4) we must not venture from the clear path of church discipline given to us in Matthew 18 and 1 Peter 5. If we veer from the complete instruction of scripture, we will only continue to foster an environment where sin abounds.
Back to this morning. Mickey Connelly spoke on Eph. 4:1-3. I’ll leave it to you each to listen to message. It’s available at http://www.kingsway.cc or at least it will be the first part of the week. I can say that I was encouraged by each person that I spoke with. Many, many members read this site to my surprise. The greater encouragement came however from brothers and sisters seeking the Lord in this time of trial. Everyone that I spoke with was concerned but seeking unity within the body and that the truth be revealed no matter what path it took us on. People were truly serving one another, what a novel concept. Most even voiced that God has directed this time.
Just a couple of other points…
Dave Harvey is supposed to come speak on polity on September 12. That should be an interesting listen.
The second family meeting about this whole matter should be sometime shortly after… a previous meeting was to take place on polity.
Defended asked… “can you offer any explanation as to why a leader feels no responsibility to search his own conscience, submitting to the Holy Spirit any sense of needing to reconcile with anyone? ”
I fear answering that question because it is ugly to say the least. I fear the logical conclusion because it does not speak well for anyone who would be so blinded, seared, or hard-hearted as to lack that feeling of responsibility, to fail to hear the Spirit’s call to repentance or to simply ignore that call.
This seems to be basic Christianity but isn’t that where we all seem to falter so often, majoring on minors and forgetting the essentials. The place that KingsWay finds itself is a direct result of doing such things.
Despite all of the questions and concerns it is clear that God is at work. He is ministering to His people through this, He is cleansing His Bride and hearts are being enlightened. I am grateful to be a part of this time. It is often hard but to see His name glorified is far more important than the hardship.
Please pray for that group of men who started this, SW, BD, and BM, as well as their wives and children. This has been one long exercise in perseverance. They are tired. If you are a member at KingsWay and know who they are, go to them, put your arms around them, pray for them, support them in any way. They, as well as the pastors of KingsWay, need our prayers. Thank you for the many that have been praying for so long already.
Men of KingsWay, this is your time to stand in the gap. Now is the time to be firm in conviction, not divisive or exercising in disunity but no longer allowing false doctrines to reign over the church. We must not fail to uphold the responsibility given to us. I can not stress enough the importance of following Matthew 18 and 1 Peter 5 here. We must not step away from this in the name of unity. Unity must be sought but if it is at the expense of truth then the unity itself will be grounded in falsehoods and worthless. Isn’t that the unity the world has?
Love one another, be patient always and work for the purity of the church. It’s striking to me that Wayne Grudem sights both purity and unity as freedoms for the church…
“The purity of the church is its degree of freedom from wrong doctrine and conduct, and its degree of conformity to God’s revealed will for the church.”
“The unity of the church is its degree of freedom from divisions among true Christians.”
Seek freedom my friends, seek it to its fullest degree.
Mike D,
You reported: “The wives who were present began asking hard questions and press for the truth to be told.”
God bless you, my courageous sisters! I’m proud to count you in the “Brotherhood of believers”, if you will allow me (a guy) to be counted in the “Bride of Christ”.
Mike, thanks for the report, I’m so glad that there is such resistance in the Church to being divided into bite sized pieces.
One thought that occurred to me today that even if SGM were to decide to force Gene Emerson to step down it would still mean that something is still wrong. It should have been one of SGM’s first reaction.
Here are some of the cases I know of pastors being forced to step down:
Chip Ward due to family issues.
Robin Boisvert due to actions of his son.
Larry Tomczak (cofounder of group) due to family and actions of his son.
One case where a pastor didn’t have to step down was Grant Layman (C.J’s brother in law) despite the problems he had with one of his daughers.
Now we have a regional leader who in essence lied by witholding information that wreaked a lot of havoc on another former pastor and no disciplinary action happens? There sure are different standards for different individuals.
My guess is that Gene Emerson and other leaders at Kingwsay are buying time right now. They are hoping that things will simmer down and they won’t be under the pressure they may be under right now. Then they can go back to business as normal when the “heat” dies down.
Ya got me singing again!
Rise up O Men of God!
Have done with lesser things.
Give heart and mind and soul and strength
to serve the King of kings.
Rise up, O men of God!
The kingdom tarries long.
Bring in the day of brotherhood
and end the night of wrong.
Rise up O Men of God!
The church for you doth wait,
her strength unequal to her task;
rise up, and make her great!
Rise up, O men of God!
Tread where his feet have trod.
As brothers of the Son of Man,
rise up, O men of God!
And now for a Cowboy yell:
YEEEEEEE HAWWW!
Rise up O men of God! By this is the tune that goes round in my head when that phrase is spoken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxpBM5pU-i4
I know there is a classic tune too, but hey, I’m of the Phil Keaggy generation & fanclub!
Mike Drewry, dear brother, God bless you! Thank you so much for your courage. Thank you for even considering my question. You alone have spoken of it! That speaks of your courage, humility AND that you do serve and submit to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And that your heart is not cold to Him. God bless you and keep you soft for His sake, His leading and His people. As for whether or not you like the answer you have in your heart, I would submit that James 5:16 is for you: 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. Clearly you and so many others are praying for your brethren there, and God is working! And honestly, who doesn’t need the salvation and healing and restoration of the Lord as we turn our ear away from His leading?! Redemption, by definition means we need His help! And the good news is that He will reveal Himself to those who sincerely and diligently seek Him!
Honestly I’m so happy for your wonderful report of the unity of God’s people at Kingsway! Praise God, He is the KING OF KINGS and it’s HIS church!
We will certainly be praying for all of you. Thank God for your brave women, and for their integrity. You men married them! No shame there, in my eyes. Just don’t let them tell you to leave your wives at home, either! ;o)
God bless you. The Church is His Bride, His people. As you said, to see His name glorified IS worth it all!
Defender— I’ve been wondering if you might break out in song!! AMEN!!!
Mike D, Thankyou, once again for communicating — really, to hear that a GROUP of saints are standing together (whether large or small) and persevering in questions and confrontations with scripture and requests for truth is sooooooooo very
encouraging! Brethren in KingsWay — Y O U A R E T H E C H U R C H ——-
Jesus Christ is your Cornerstone— you are standing on and in His Righteousness–We hear the reports of HIM giving you tenacity, strength,wisdom, discernment-
This is a hallellujah!
I am praying the Rivers of Living water within you saints will become a torrent of truth that no walls of stalemate, control or religous sgmese speak will be
able to halt. Sisters in the Lord, we know as we submit ourselves unto the Lord and honor our husbands, we are able to go into a meeting of Brethren and stand in the same Righteousness in Christ and speak forth as the Lord Almighty moves. Women are called to don the same spiritual armor as men — so, Sisters and Brothers — keep sharp those Swords of the Spirit — keep up your shields of faith——–strap on that breastplate of Righteousness (you are NOT a worm)——-cover your heads with the helmet of salvation (believe no lies lest any stronghold take root)—–cinch everything together with the belt of TRUTH (the enemy fights with deceptions,manipulations,double-talk,schemes,ploys,)
because on YOUR feet ARE the shoes of the Gospel— the Good News—Jesus came to set the captives free that we may know Him and walk with Him—you shall not be moved!
KingsWay, there is a shaking in your church— keep seeking Him—God has chosen you for this significant toe-to-toe confrontation for Truth. This is about His own and the
representation of our Holy God.
For KingsWay: Psalms 24: 3-10
“Who may ascend into the hill of the Lord?
And who may stand in His Holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
And has not sworn deceitfully.
He shall receive a blessing from the Lord
And righteousness from the God of his salvation.
This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face– even Jacob. (selah)
Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
That the King of Glory may come in!
Who is the King of Glory?
THE LORD STRONG AND MIGHTY
THE LORD MIGHTY IN BATTLE
Lift up your heads,O gates,
And lift them up O ancient doors,
That the King of Glory may come in!
Who is this King of Glory?
THE LORD OF HOSTS,
HE IS THE KING OF GLORY. (selah)
He is the KING OF GLORY!
Amen, Waters.
This here is one reason i never became a member. The membership covenant needs changing. Its from CLC but it reads the same for KingsWay. I went through the brain washing ops starting point class and was sick to my stomach. I have met a lot of really good people at KingsWay, but some seem to worship their pastors and CJ not JC. Everyone wants you to fit the SGM mold and it was not for me. SGM is a way of life, thats why its going to be hard for some to get out. I have family on the inside, i just hope that they take to heart all the things from the meeting last Sunday and push for more open meetings.
Praying for all at KingsWay
On May 23, I approached “the mic” after receiving approval from a KW pastor to read the very portion of scripture that “Waters” quotes (Ps. 24: 3-10)! It was actually the first time I had done that since being at KW almost 11 years. I sensed God’s presence as I read the words in as dramatic a way as I felt like they deserved. There was genuine response across the auditorium as I read, “Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD, mighty in battle! Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.” I felt my heart full of the Spirit and I paused before finishing the psalm, and then continued: ”Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory!” And then I turned and prayed that I would not fall down on my way back to my seat!
God has His Hand on KingsWay but my heart is grieved at the arrogance that I have seen over the years. I love GE but I am sad that he chose to be so uncaring to someone who had been a dear friend and co-worker in the ministry (SW). I could not attend church yesterday after learning in advance that MC from Charlotte would be teaching on “Unity” and that Communion would be shared. I felt like that was once again a manipulation of the congregation to have things just “be over” quickly. I am so very proud (in a godly way) of Mike Drewry for publishing his insightful comments under his actual name. I pray that God will protect he and his family. And I am so very proud (in a godly way) of the community group leaders (and it sounds like my sisters!) for standing up for truth and the King of Glory! Our church needs to change in some significant ways, but I’m not sure if the changes that I, and so many others yearn for, will be embraced under SGM. I am saddened that there seems to be those in the congregation that want things to just be done and over and to just move on. They don’t seem to have this passion in their hearts for change. Perhaps, like has been suggested on this blog, God is going to scatter the ones that leave to other places and thus spread His gospel and our years of maturity will not be wasted by staying here. I guess that’s another sad part to this whole mess. There are many of us (older believers) who feel displaced by this “culture of youth” that SGM has embraced. How ungodly is this? The WORLD embraces and exults youth – not His Church! The WORD says that we who are older in years and the Lord, have wisdom and gifts that are to be cherished and used! I want to serve the King of Glory – wherever He calls us to be in fellowship. And it may not be at KW.
“Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory! Selah.” Psalm 24: 8-10
Heavy Heart,
I’m curious as to your comment on the “culture of youth” that is present in SGM. As a young single in KW I’ve felt like if anything, there’s more emphasis and opportunity ministry-wise for the older, married people (which I have no problem with). Could you expound a bit more?
Thanks
Waters said:
Women are called to don the same spiritual armor as men — so, Sisters and Brothers — keep sharp those Swords of the Spirit — keep up your shields of faith——–strap on that breastplate of Righteousness (you are NOT a worm)——-cover your heads with the helmet of salvation (believe no lies lest any stronghold take root)—–cinch everything together with the belt of TRUTH (the enemy fights with deceptions,manipulations,double-talk,schemes,ploys,)
because on YOUR feet ARE the shoes of the Gospel— the Good News—Jesus came to set the captives free that we may know Him and walk with Him—you shall not be moved!”
………
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ CLAPPING!!!!!! ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Pragmatic – I see what you are saying. As far as perhaps leading a small group, etc. it would appear that there are more opportunities for the older, married members. I perhaps should have been a little more specific. (This is what happens when we try hard to voice our thoughts while trying to be as careful and general as possible.) What I am specifically referring to is the practice of putting very young pastors into leadership positions very quickly. From what I understand, this has not only happened at KW with MW but this has happened perviously in other SG churches. That’s what I meant.
Please don’t let these issues affect YOUR walk with the Lord! Stay focused on Him and His Word!
Pragmatic – thank you for being concerned about our church. This is a very important time for our church and perhaps for other churches also (but I think you are aware of that
Hey Ellie, call me!
Heavy Heart, in some ways I am more hopeful now than ever that there can be some reform within SGM, especially as the members become more aware of the problems and stand together to hold leaders responsible. Without all of you, there would be no job for these leaders. They cannot lead if the sheep won’t follow. If the saints stand together in seeking change, there will be change.
I also see what you were saying about young pastors being put in charge instead of older, more mature believers. Danger, Will Robinson! All those years ago when guys like Benny, CJ, Larry, and Brent began PDI, they were in their 20′s. Just as the Bible warns, youthful pride got in the way as their success grew. Speaking to Larry’s wife once after they’d been ousted, she remarked on this. “We were young,” she said. “We thought we had it all and that everyone needed to come to us to get it.” A truly humble woman, in my opinion.
Wow, Canary, if she said it, she just went up in points in my book. (As if that matters.)
Heavy Heart and Pragmatic, if I haven’t said it yet, please forgive me, but welcome here. The more voices, the merrier. Or to be more specific, the more voices speaking out, the more healing there is and the more many of us see, we are not alone.
Thanks HH, I see where you are coming from now. I can see how that would be a concern and it’s something to work through.
Concerning MW’s participation in the session I would like to set the record straight, if I may. It appeared to me that he was simply acting as the officiator of the Q&A session and trying to keep to the agenda which had been set ahead of time, by the leadership team. In the end, they were flexible and took considerably more questions than anticipated. They also addressed the need to have family nights/Q&A’s more often.
I also felt that GE gave a sincere and direct apology for what has happened. Granted, there’s still a lot of work to be done and time will tell if there is real change, but I feel we are on the right track.
Personally, this has really challenged me to take a hard look at the what and why of my faith and church life. Having seen the fruit of some of the “kingsway way” doctrine in my own life, I’ve realized that there is simply a laziness on my part to accept wholesale from the pulpit and from other well-intentioned church members the way I should live. I see the responsibility of leadership for endorsing things that shouldn’t have been, and taking the role of the Holy Spirit in my life. And I’m happy they are working to right the wrongs that have been taught and implied. Ultimately though, I feel it’s a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirits leading.
I appreciate the perspective this blog gives me as I weigh through the issues that make up church life. At the same time, it seems that there’s a propensity for the comments take issue with the SGM leadership simply because they are SGM leadership, and then champion anyone who opposes them, just because it’s SGM leadership and therefore rotten to the bone. It’s just not that simple. There’s problems, sure. And this season in particular has been a bit messy. But I believe that God is truly working through both the body and the leadership here to bring restitution and forgiveness. I’m remaining optimistic, not because of how great a church we are (sarcasm), but because how great God is.
I’m especially excited to hear about my sisters in Christ who stood up during the care group leaders’ meetings…and that their husbands supported them, seeing them as co-heirs in Christ. Hmmm…seems like I’ve heard that phrase before somewhere.
I hope, sincerely hope, that this is the beginning of freedom for our brethren in KW!
I don’t mean to offend at all, please know that–I bring this thought to you to encourage and free you. Those of you that are leaving…I see a common thought: ” then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places,” and other comments about how you will take all the wonderful things you’ve learned at SGM churches to bring them to other churches.
Please be cautious. SGM teaches that only SGM has it right, that their doctrine is more pure, more biblical, more godly than any other gathering of believers (not a pun…). That is ludicrous crap. You’ll be amazed at the depth of maturity in other churches. Jesus builds his bride hither and yon, and once you find freedom, you’ll certainly be used.
But you might also want to be open to just going to another body to just BE. To learn from them, to be restored and rested and enjoy a time of refreshment and liberty.
Join us out here in Freedomland, y’all. But we don’t need what you’ve learned in SGM. You don’t have to bring anything with you–just you. Simply come to the party…we long to worship the Father with you, and to watch where he leads you.
John 8:36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Dear HH,
So very interesting, Holy Spirit brings forth a portion of scripture for KingsWay–
twice within 3 months. He is pointing to the One Who is the King of Glory, the Lord of Hosts, the Lord mighty in battle. Glorious! Thankyou for sharing your heart in this– I can just hear the crescendo in the atmosphere as Gods Word effected His people, proclaiming that “HE IS the King of Glory”…….
I can hear your love for the people at KingsWay and for your pastors. Probably many of us, who were or are a part of sgm identify with you. We are the Body. We really are knitted together. When we see the reality of pollutant and/or a seeping gangrene
infecting our Brothers and Sisters, we cry out in alarm.. This has been difficult for us–
knowing some do see the pollution and are aware of the gangrene—but choose
to apply man-made ointment and go on with ‘business as usual”. This is where love
infuses us to continue to love AND speak the Truth, which in these battles has definitely become a sharp sword. It is necessary. Thankyou for reminding us to pray and to pray for MikeD and those who are taking an assertive and vocal stand for Truth.
We are proud of you all, proud in the sense of saying “well done…as you are fighting the good fight of the faith.”
The opposite of Truth…….is falsehood. Jesus said “IAM the way, the truth, and the Life”
He has no partnership with deceit. He is the King of Glory.
When one of the Body lifts up their soul to falsehood, and has sworn deceitfully that what he says is true (and it is not) – it is love that would appeal to him to fully acknowledge
the depth of his own destructive transgression.. If this one is a leader, we certainly
should be sobered and discerning before placing ourselves and our household
in submission to their overseeing. — Where corruptive roots took hold must be searched and rooted out…….and then the TIME span of examining for genuine fruit……..
Because its about reflecting Jesus… not the ‘good of the local church’.
KingsWay..we will be praying for your strength,discernment and protection –
probably more bigdogs from Gburg Hill will come to speak to you and seek to bring you to their modus agenda. And remember, the same Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead actually dwells in,lives in,abides in YOU!! Praying you will continue to:
“Build yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, and keep yourselves in the love of God…” (Jude, 20-21)
Amen, RT. I was thinking the same thing.
Heavy Heart and Pragmatic, welcome, welcome! I am so encouraged that the people at Kingsway are rising up and voicing Truth, not being silenced by the SGM machine! A hearty well done to those ladies who stood up to Gene Emerson! Maybe, just maybe, Kingsway can be rescued from the hands of SGM. If enough people stand for Truth and will not be bullied, then maybe it could happen.
Pragmatic:
Welcome to the ‘fuge.
You said: “I appreciate the perspective this blog gives me as I weigh through the issues that make up church life. At the same time, it seems that there’s a propensity for the comments take issue with the SGM leadership simply because they are SGM leadership, and then champion anyone who opposes them, just because it’s SGM leadership and therefore rotten to the bone. It’s just not that simple. There’s problems, sure. And this season in particular has been a bit messy. But I believe that God is truly working through both the body and the leadership here to bring restitution and forgiveness. I’m remaining optimistic, not because of how great a church we are (sarcasm), but because how great God is.” [emphasis mine - pk]
No one is happier than me–and that’s a genuine statement not easily made–if overall good things are happening at Kingsway in terms of repentance, no matter how messy the situation gets.
Also, I certainly don’t want to defend adversity and controversy for the sake of controversy, but one of the reasons many here have a knee-jerk reaction toward SGM leadership is that leadership problems tend to have a pattern, are often systemic movement-wide, and many here have not just been burned, but torched. From my own view, leadership often wants and expects love and forgiveness for their offenses, but does not want to extend the same toward the flock. This is seen in how they live out their lives and how well they put their money–and scripture–where their mouth is after hard times and stormy seas blow through the church.
Please understand, Pragmatic…I am not getting on your case. But I do think it’s important not to paint everyone here with a wide brush as being anti-leadership for flimsy reasons, like simply being a leader in SGM. The problems have been movement/denomination-wide, and that’s why you see a large number here who are in different stages of ever trusting SGM leadership again.
I hope this makes sense and that you do not feel that I am attacking what you said, just simply trying to widen the view here on folks–including me–who are still smarting from being scorched. I wish (and I’m sure many here wish this as well) I could flip a switch and all the bad stuff caused by SGM leaders would go away for all of us…not that simple. Everyone is exactly where God has them in His hand in the healing process and in their walk. Do some of us spend too much time licking our wounds–including me? Maybe. But it’s a huge mistake to lump all of us together as simply being anti-leadership. I’d rather like to think of many here as pro-reform and pro-good practices. And I make no apologies for believing that SGM leadership from the top down needs reformation.
Once again, welcome!
–PK
I began participating in this thread with the best of intentions. My view was and still is that the matter(s) before KW are squarely within the arena of church discipline mentioned in Matthew 18: 15- 20.
One thing that I’ve learned in the midst of this is that there are a lot of people hurting in ways and depths that I had never imaged. (I’ve only been at KW for about 2 years and therefore not a part of the past that many have been.) I have received numerous emails, calls and had a few face to face conversations with brothers and sisters that are incredibly grieved. For most of them, this grief has lasted for years. The anguish that has been expressed to me has been highly unsettling but I am also grateful that the Lord has granted those individuals a voice and the strength to again seek reconciliation and peace.
My heart breaks for those individuals that have been crushed by practices that amounted to spiritual abuse. I bear their burdens before the Lord daily and hope for speed in healing.
I thought that when I began this that I could serve the body in some way. I never sought to lead some group of “wounded warriors.” I never sought to stand at a distance and take sniper shots at the leadership of KW or SGM. I never sought to detract from the process that is clearly moving forward as the Lord directs. I only sought to inform, to give a voice to an otherwise unheard or isolated group.
Since that first posting I’ve had an overwhelming amount of encouragement from individuals throughout KW and from many here at “refuge.” Thank you. It shows me, and others, a passion for this precious Bride, the Church of Jesus Christ.
I learned something yesterday however that I had not thought about. Thankfully, two brothers that I dearly love were men not afraid to speak to me about the wisdom of posting these matters in a medium that leaves no room for you, the reader, to have an opportunity to truly see my heart. You have no idea who I am, even though I posted my true name, because I believe I should never make a statement that I’m not willing to fully stand behind. This medium, while useful, can be detrimental for many reasons.
Like those who came forward to tell me their painful stories, there are others who feel a pain of another type. They feel the pain of my words. They have suffered because of what I have written here. Some are confused about what has gone on within KW and SGM. They may have been here for years and indoctrinated into the “KingsWay way” but now, just like one looking into the bright light after having bandages removed has sensitivity to that light, many here are experiencing varying degrees of sensitivity. Because of that they need to be cared for as well. I need to be gentler and seek to care for you instead of always charging forward.
My words have not been sensitive to many within our body. I have been less than gentle and certainly not patient. I’ve been described as passionate… or brash dependent on whether you like me or not. I allowed that passion to charge my words. I don’t think that alone that would be problematic but coupled with this situation it became sinful on my part. It caused me to loose sight of my love for you and become a clanging cymbal only causing irritation to your already open wounds. Brothers, sisters, if my words have caused any degree of pain, hurt, distress please forgive me. It brings me great pain to know that I have caused harm to some that have read this blog. If that has occurred do not hesitate to talk to me. I don’t know who you are. I’ve only heard of you but I want to look you in the eye and ask for your forgiveness. I can only do that if you allow me that chance. Please, please come to me or call. My number is on the members section of the KingsWay website.
I also want to publicly confess my sin against Gene Emerson. This is where I committed it. This is the right place to confess it. I will meet with him separately at a later date to ask directly. I still believe in the charges that I professed however I have not spoken directly to GE and that is, I believe, wrong.
Gene, the Emerson family, the other pastors and their families and any one else that my words have caused harm, you are my brothers and sisters, you are loved deeply and while my directness has caused you to be injured, please know that was not my intent. I acted foolishly and charged forward without heeding the fullness of Scripture. Please forgive me. Truth must be told but not at the expence of causing undo harm to the ones Christ died for.
I know that much can be read into this. (that’s always the case) Some may even say that it’s just another example of the “SGM brainwashing” and that’s OK. God has convicted me of this and it is to Him alone that I must answer. May His name be praised and may He alone be glorified in all that we are doing here.
Heavy Heart:
If I have not seen you earlier, welcome to the ‘fuge…
Thank you for laying it all out, and I hope soon that heavy heart turns into a glad heart.
–PK
RT said:
“I don’t mean to offend at all, please know that–I bring this thought to you to encourage and free you. Those of you that are leaving…I see a common thought: ” then disperse what we’ve learned as we go to other places,” and other comments about how you will take all the wonderful things you’ve learned at SGM churches to bring them to other churches.”
RT, I understand what you are saying here and I have been concerned with it also. I also understand what some of the new SGM refugees are saying, in part, about being able to use what God (not SGM) has given them over the years and not be stifled.
There have been a couple posts where someone has said something about not letting the enemy make them bitter and keep them from fellowship as they leave SGM. Again, I can understand in part what is being said here. These newest refugees have the benefit of seeing the SGM lies together – not being isolated as one family or one individual, as many of us have been over the years. We all thought it was just US or just our church. We thought “this can’t be real, this is crazy, we are the ones that are in the wrong here, because that’s how we were made to feel. Members leaving now have the benefit of these blogs and knowing that there really has been some weird stuff going on and it’s not their imagination. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have some healing that needs to happen. That doesn’t mean that they don’t need to get reacquainted with who God really is. That doesn’t mean that they need to learn to really learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I am very glad for the way God is exposing unrighteousness and that people are being set free, but please take time to heal, too. Taking time out to just be with God and being cautious about who to trust is not bitterness, and it’s NOT a bad thing. The only one who is truly trustworthy is the Lord. The Holy Spirit will teach us who we can trust. And it may take time.
I hope this makes sense and y’all can hear my heart in what I am trying to say.
Stunned and RT,
I can see where you are coming from. However, I believe the subject came up about mature believers leaving SGM finally being able to be useful in God’s Kingdom. It was is so easy for those of us who spent many years in PDI/SGM to feel that time was wasted. No! There are good things that were taught to me in the early years – I learned how to desire God’s will above my own. A very valuable lesson! All those who are leaving should do as the Bible instructs: test the spirit and keep the good. I don’t know if I’m saying this right…I just don’t want those who are leaving to feel discouraged that their time in SGM was a waste. Glean the good from your experience and use it to serve the Lord. We can all do the work of ministry in one form or another. SGM kept many people bound up. If anything, it was the gifts within these people that was wasted! So, be free, saints! Test the spirit in what you learned during your time in SGM and keep what is good. And most of all, enjoy your freedom in Christ!
Canary said:
Just as the Bible warns, youthful pride got in the way as their success grew. Speaking to Larry’s wife once after they’d been ousted, she remarked on this. “We were young,” she said. “We thought we had it all and that everyone needed to come to us to get it.” A truly humble woman, in my opinion.
I believe this to be true in the Leadership! But I’m hopeful with the rest of you that people are starting to see TRUTH!
I’m excited that God is beginning restoration of his church…. That is my prayer for Sovereign Grace…. Hearts are growing!
I’m joining with you all that “true repentance” will come…. That they will acknowledge the true head of the church and humble their hearts SINCERELY before God.
I agree with PK…. I know that I spent over a year and 1/2 licking my wounds…. so to speak… I’m still in the healing process – but I believe with all of my heart that I love the people of SG or I wouldn’t even be on this site. I would care less what happens to them and remain bitter and angry. I refuse to allow that.
I will continue to hold them up to the Lord and pray that their holds turn their eyes UP to God and not UP to their Pastor…… I walked through a relationship where God wasn’t leading us – but man was…. My fiance’ did as he was TOLD…. period.
What Ellie said, too…
Pragmatic said:
“ I see the responsibility of leadership for endorsing things that shouldn’t have been, and taking the role of the Holy Spirit in my life. And I’m happy they are working to right the wrongs that have been taught and implied. Ultimately though, I feel it’s a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirits leading.”
Yes, it is a personal responsibility to measure all things against scripture and keep an active and responsive mind to the Holy Spirit’s leading. We were taught by SGM leadership that we, as mere members and not leadership, can NOT hear the Holy Spirit speaking to us. We were taught ***by leadership*** that we needed ***leadership*** to tell us what the Holy Spirit would be saying to us. This totally unbiblical doctrine was taught to SGM leadership by SGM leadership along with alot of other nonsense (such as it’s okay to lie and mislead sometimes). Anyone who did not follow the company line and thought that they could hear the Holy Spirit for themselves was told that they did not trust leadership and that they needed to find a church where they could trust the leadership. They needed to leave. They were not welcome. And if not for the new “togetherness” of SGM members in light of what God has been doing in the last couple years, YOU too would be shipped out of your SG church if you decided that you could hear the Holy Spirit and had a conviction that He was saying something differently than what your leaders were saying. You wouldn’t have the benefit of being able to continue to question openly. You would be OUT and all your friends at SG would go on with their lives and wonder what sin you were in, because you weren’t there anymore.
I LOVE my old pastors, but I HATE what the SGM machine has done to them.
I will continue to hold them up to the Lord and pray that their holds…. Sorry..
meant to say that their hearts turn toward God and not their Pastors…… I need a proof reader!
Oh Ellie,
you said:
we are the ones that are in the wrong here, because that’s how we were made to feel. Members leaving now have the benefit of these blogs and knowing that there really has been some weird stuff going on and it’s not their imagination.
This is my heart and so very very true! Praise God for others than have stepped forward in my life as confirmation that I wasn’t crazy….
Amen!
Mike D.:
First, I want to say your humility is appreciated, and refreshing. Your concern for your church as a whole and as individuals is not only admirable, but exemplary. The fact you stuck your neck out by posting your real name certainly has my respect. Others here have very good reasons for not posting their real/actual names (contrary to the rocks that get thrown at them for so-called “anonymous” posting), but I think you get my point.
My concern is in the timing of the two individuals who are appealing to you to essentially stay off the blogs because you are allegedly hurting other people with your words.
Like your illustration of wounds and light-sensitivity, the truth does not always feel good, Mike. You certainly know this. If someone wants to see your heart, they can contact you here or offline…nobody is stopping them from doing that, and I will be happy to facilitate that.
There are some hard things that Christians have to face in the trenches throughout their lives, and no amount of soft-pedaling or absence on the blogs or shutting-up is going to change or help that.
Men like Isaiah and Jeremiah had to say some very hard things to an entire nation, and thousands of years later, we have yet to see the entire fulfillment and apex of it. I’m willing to bet that aside from the ones who wanted these prophets’ heads spinning on sticks, there were ones who came to them privately (probably some within their own families) and appealed to them to stop “hurting” people with their words. It doesn’t change the fact that at the time Israel was on a downward spiral, and somebody, somewhere, had to have the guts to call a spade a spade, dig in, and fight for the honor and righteousness of the God they serve. The time of lip-service was over, and the time of God resuming his place on the throne in the hearts of people was at hand.
My whole point Mike is that emergency damage control via attempting to shut people up has never worked in the history of mankind, let alone the history of Israel, and most especially the Church.
If you have concerns over heart motives, I understand that, and certainly cannot pretend to be the Holy Spirit in that matter. But do not let men shut you up for reasons based more on sentiment, decorum, and the offended’s sensitive egos than reasons for righteousness and a most desperately needed reformation.
Be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might!
–PK
I am not new to this site, but this is my first post. After googling Brent D.’s name last fall, I stumbled on this site. The discovery of this site was not long after I had written a long letter to our elders (about this time last year) expressing deep concerns. While my wife and I met with the Sr. pastor, I was shocked to find themes on this site very similar, sometimes to the word as in my letter. One would have thought I was a regular on this site before I wrote my letter. Hmmm….. However, this is not what I have come here to say. I have attended KingsWay for 20 years. Most of my adult life I have found life in the fellowship of wonderful people and friends at KingsWay. God has used this body to speak and minister to me and my family (more than the other way around). I have heartfelt thanks to leaders and members alike.
But, none have spoken and ministered to me more than one man. At the risk of elevating a flawed man, I have witnessed the most profound example of God’s “new creation” work and powerful display of love that I have ever believed possible. I have long thought that talk is cheap and actions are a measure of a man. This man’s actions are off the charts!
I write this today to let KingsWay, Sovereign Grace and the world know the absolute undying love that God alone is able to create in a man’s heart. The man I speak of is Bob Dixon. I have known him 20 years, but have gotten closer over the last few and much closer this last year. His humility and love astounds me. Even though we were friends he never told me of his long journey to love his brother (Steve W.) back to health and selfless dedication to see him restored and the body of Christ healed. For nine years, ten counting this last year, he went nearly monthly (nearly monthly!!!) to our leadership asking for reconciliation. Nine years! Nine years, in season and out, never giving up. It is unfathomable. My love for a brother or the body of Christ under these circumstances would not have lasted more than six months, much less than 9 years. Bob persevered hoping in God for nine plus years. Is this even possible? I will answer. No, not with man, but with God all things are possible. This is the love of God, nothing less.
As I consider our leaders and their calling and responsibility before God to shepherd His flock, I think of two passages and I think of Bob. I Cor. 11:1 “Follow my example as I follow the example of Christ.” Paul is clear, we are not to simply follow a leader (even the apostle Paul, himself), but to follow a leader only as they follow Christ’s example. Christ’s example is not what comes natural to us. One of the clearest pictures of this is the parable of the lost sheep. The heart of God is not like our heart. We are interested in numbers, in success, in mission, and yes, in kingdom building. We are interested in the 99 sheep. So what is the mark of the authentic shepherd? It is the pursuit of the lone sheep, which is lost. Does this really make sense? No, not to our kingdom building minds, but it is precisely what marks the heart of an undershepherd who has a heart after Gods. This is Christ’s example that we simply will not see or follow without full surrender to God’s heart and his heart for his sheep. This is exactly what Bob did. He went after that one solitary hurting and bruised sheep and after caring for him, tried and tried and tried to bring him back into the flock. He, only in God’s strength, with the help of highly esteemed men has finished this work. While I, for one, am in holy respect and gratitude to his long suffering obedience. I know Bob’s heart remains for the body of Christ and the freedom that is theirs only in Christ and the unity that is found in submission to Him alone. I share Bob’s vision. I have seen it. It is Christ. As recorded in Philippians 2:6, Christ emptied Himself. I have witnessed a man empty himself. Bob, Steve, Buddy and those privileged to share this burden with them, I am eternally grateful.
Kingsway,
If any man is qualified to be an elder, I believe Bob is. With that, he also has a prophetic gift and is significant to the body at Kingsway for such a time as this. I would ask, who has spoken in word and deed with this kind of unselfish love for the body. We all would do well to listen but not only listen but discern by both the Word and the Spirit what God is saying.
I would exhort Kingsway believers (Heb.3:13) to pray for unity, but more so that truth be revealed. For what fellowship has light with darkness?
Until all comes to the light and the deeds are seen to be in God, we will never see the truth and the unity of the spirit that follows. Those things that are hidden do not want to come to the light. Why? (John 3:20, 21). We are in a spiritual battle. We wrestle not against flesh and blood; we are not against our brothers but for them. We must spend more time on our knees than anything else. God help us!
Lastly, unity is like peace, we want it so and even for God honoring reasons. We may seek it, pursue it, commit to it and along the way find some of it, however we will never possess it, not apart from emptying ourselves of any and every thing that obscures or contends with the all sufficiency and all supremacy of Christ. Unity is essentially a byproduct of submission to and fullness of the spirit of Christ (where there is no hidden darkness at all).This is our hope. Obedience to Christ and his Word are our only means to unity.
Grace, peace and unity to all who are in Christ.
Mike D,
I don’t have time to say all I would like to say regarding your recent post, but in a short time I’d like to say:
I do not see anything you said that was particularly malicious. Rather, just reports of what was happening, and those reports protected specific names except for the names we already know. (I personally wonder if anyone was hurt, it was the hurt of exposure, not slander?)
In my gleeful expressions here, I am not gleeful for the fall of leaders, rather I am ecstatic for the freedom of the Bride of Christ.
My personal experience is that SGM leadership, (All the way to the top) is holding the Bride captive to ANOTHER GOSPEL.)
In my personal experience, SGM leadership DOES NOT FEAR GOD. (In my case I saw Hersey, and borderline Blasphemy spewed on my wife & me by a pastor and an Apostle.)
I see similar patterns of SGM leadership abuse in the stories of the many wounded here.
The Kings Way “story” here has the same DNA evidence all over it. Be very careful about ANYBODY in leadership at SGM wanting to put any condemnation on you. The Holy Spirit can convict you of any sin you commit. Men who do not fear God bring CONDEMNATION, not true conviction, so be aware.
If the Holy Spirit is leading you to write what you wrote, then Praise God, and obey Him.
If it is from Men who do not fear God, they will seek to bring you under their control, or publicly humiliate you and discredit you.
Seek God, and use your discernment from Him.
While I’m on my soapbox:
As far as Reform in SGM is concerned, In my opinion, the only way Reform can happen in SGM, is by a total sweeping away of the entire SGM Polity and Leadership (With the exception that if God decides to keep any leaders who are totally regenerated from the current polity.) I’m talking scorched earth. (No less scorched than as the wounded Bride was scorched under the current Polity.) Also, this silly fascination with promoting these 20-somethings into leadership has to stop. It is juvenile! It’s from CJ, and he is displaying himself as either intellectually vacant, or openly against the word of God. Either way it looks pretty bad for CJ, and therefore the whole of SGM.
Mike, I’m proud of your courage and valor in posting here under your own name. Please understand that there are real tangible reasons as to why we post under other names so we cannot be “Googled” and persecuted. We have had enough persecution for now. If anybody really want’s to find out who I am they can read my story over at Survivors in the April 19 2009 archive and do some research to find me.
I truly want God’s best for Kings Way church, and am not concerned about the ones responsible for evil being done in God’s name. I leave them (the leaders) in God’s hands. He has infinitely far more Grace to offer them than do I.
I went on longer than I expected, but that’s my $1.50 worth.
Defender
Thanks PK. I appreciate the encouragement. Here’s a little of where I’m coming from and following this I will not comment about me again as regards this matter. I do not wish to take away from what is the FAR more important matter at hand. I hope that doesn’t come across wrong. I just think that there are more important matters to discuss.
“Thus sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.” 1 Cor. 8:12 ESV
This medium, the blog, is controversial by itself. Many believe that it is not the place to talk about the matters that are discussed here. I don’t, if caution is used. This can be a very effective tool for many things, and in our case creating a portal through which “truth” can be disseminated quickly, broadly and unincumbered. However with such power comes great responsibility.
I must tell the truth, from that I pray that I do not stray. I also must care for the body of Christ. It is not merely a command for me but something that I feel within my deepest parts. I know that it comes from the Spirit. I long to see men and women wide-eyed, clear sighted, but at the expense of wounding them… not if they are my brothers and sisters.
Your reference to Isaiah and Jeremiah is true. Many hard things were said and many beyond those looking for heads were likely hurt but you are also talking about a group of hard-hearted people within the people of God that were angered or injured by what they heard. The true sheep hear His voice and know Him. Those that I am referencing are those that are seeking the truth, long for it even but are struggling in this time. Their hearts, all of them, must be protected even as they hear hard things. For some, a part of that responsibility is on themselves. Not all are equipped for the sometimes raw statements made in an environment like this. Perhaps they should avoid reading here. But does that mean that I have no responsibility? Of course I do! I share the burden of their pain while continuing to press for God’s glory as this whole path unwinds before us. It is precisely because of that that I must use wisdom and be prudent in when, what and how I present matters. There are times when temperance is the right choice. Unfortunately, I have no control on when, who or what is read on here. I could easily have my weakest brother/sister looking at my firmest statement. I have to keep that in mind.
So will I continue to post? YES, as the Lord directs
Will I try to be wiser? YES, with His grace
Will I soft sell? NO, anyone who knows me can attest to that.
Will I be more loving toward my brothers/sisters? May it be so Lord!
Again, thank you for your encouragement PK. I am thankful for your moderating this site. It is a way of ministering to those in need. Thank you also for offering to facilitate any conversations. That may be needed at some point.
Well said, PK.
Mike, I hope you heed his words, brother.
(I really need to change this name.)
Defender: “Also, this silly fascination with promoting these 20-somethings into leadership has to stop. It is juvenile! It’s from CJ, and he is displaying himself as either intellectually vacant, or openly against the word of God. Either way it looks pretty bad for CJ, and therefore the whole of SGM.”
Amen, Defender. Doesn’t anyone else see the whole way Gene handled the installation, ordination and promotion of MW as wrong? Well I for one will say it. It was wrong and it weakened our church.
MB–
Well said! Bob is an inspiration.
MB–
ANd why did you need to google Brent? Was it because no one had told us about his departure…we had to find out about it third hand. I think there were people there at the Family Meeting that had no idea he was gone.
Mike-
I think you have done a great job in posting. I was very encouraged by your courage to speak and care for the KW congregation. I could hear your love in what you wrote and thought it was written with integrity. For what my opinion is worth I think it’s a very loving thing to help expose the truth like you have.
C O -
If I remember right, I knew Brent had left, but knew nothing else. Having been so important to SGM and to our leadership, I was simply curious as to why or what he was doing. I had never done that before and was not expecting much. Of course what I got was a whole lot more. I have to say it floored me at the time, that is my observations of what seemed to me to be growing serious issues and the similar thoughts expressed here.
I am surprised if there were people at the family meeting that didn’t know that about Brent. I expect we will learn more about the plans for oversight of local churches at our meeting coming up.- whenever that is.
It is Brent D recently departed from SGM. Wether he is on staff at this church I don’t know. I do know that he is the one preaching. His voice is very recongnizable after being in his church for many years.
I have conflicting emotions. Has he moved on to pastoring or teaching others without dealing with the many hurting people left in his wake?
MB,
What an encouraging example of Christs’ compassionate, persevering care in
your friend, Bob D. EVERY MONTH he asked for reconciliation process, and was denied? For 9 yearrrrrrrrrrrs?? And all that time, for 108 months, all total, Gene E KNEW how he himself had treated and maligned a brother in Christ and for 108 months he was
hardened to the nudging of Holy Spirit????? I confess, I’m shocked — though
should not be. Desensitized to compassion and care, is the response he showed in the Chesapeake/Esther story. (along with Steve S, and Dave H and all Chesapeake pastors).
How these men remain as ‘leaders’ is beyond my comprehension.
Your example of Bob D, as a leader who exemplifies the character of Christ is so important. Evidently, Bob is not just another “yes man” but seeks the Lord, obeys Him and cares for the wounded and broken. (Without anyone pointing it out to him).
Bob sounds real. Real. Not robotic in response with sgmspeak and behavior.
We need mighty men of valor. We need men who will be alert and “fight” . Our young men need role models like Bob. (and the men who stood/stand with him).
True, as you stated, we are definitely in a spiritual battle. We need “spiritual eyes” and to take courage to see the hard things God is revealing. Obviously, God is peeling back
layers of years of transgressions against the Brethren, perpetrated by leadership, at KingsWay. Is there a fear of God/ His Holiness, in this? The Lord, Mighty in Battle,
must see these transgressions as serious.
PLease continue to cry out for discernment —–please remember it is not only the people you are confronting, but the principalities behind every manipulative ploy.
Please continue to take courage…….May the Lord increse your perseverence,discernment and strength……..
Whatever happened with Brent is another secret hidden from everyone. He hurt many people through his controlling ways and now he has simply disappeared. I have prayed for him and his family. It would be so good to try to reconcile with him, but Mr. Canary and I don’t even know where he is or how to begin. We don’t even know if he would be open to talking with us. It is all such a mystery…typical SGM…
Amazingly, a friend just sent me this link: http://stgilesepc.org/sermon-a.....-detwiler/ I guess Brent is still pastoring.
Are you sure Brent is part of St Giles Prez. Church?
He is not listed on the staff listing.
Just makes me wonder what is his status there. Or could there be another Brent Detwiler?
Defended, this is what you’ve been saying. Don’t these men have any conscience? Don’t they have any conviction from the Holy Spirit? Your ex pastor has never reconciled with you. Neither has mine. Did Brent ever go to anyone to ask forgiveness? Or has he just moved on with his business? Does he have no idea what he did to people, how many saints he wounded? How can this be if he is truly a man of God?
Exactly right, Canary!
I went to that link and there is a search for a pastor there, so could it be he was “auditioning”? I think that’s kind of how most churches find a new guy, right?
Perhaps it would be interesting to the fine people of St. Giles to chat with you and Mr. Canary!
Honestly, we have moved on. We have prayed for and forgiven the abusers in our story. The whole point was that our so-called pastor refused to meet with us when we tried to bring an offense (or concern) according to Matthew 18. Scriptures don’t really say how to treat a leader who refuses that one, other than the oft-cited passages “tell all”. But they are God’s people and He is their shepherd, not us. Yet it’s a sad thing to see how little those people seem to have any of that reflective sin-sniffing nature when it comes to their own wielding of authority! So I pray that God is more merciful than any of us deserve in bringing those faulty, or even fraudulent leaders, who would have had us serve and worship MEN instead of the Lord Christ, back to Himself. Or to Himself if they have never truly recieved or experienced His free and loving grace.
Mike D, God bless you and keep you.
I would also want to encourage you to re-read your own report of last Sunday and how the Lord was moving among your brethren prior to the meeting and then afterwards.
Remember when you said,
Despite all of the questions and concerns it is clear that God is at work. He is ministering to His people through this, He is cleansing His Bride and hearts are being enlightened. I am grateful to be a part of this time. It is often hard but to see His name glorified is far more important than the hardship.
AMEN! AMEN!! Your post is full of truth, and honesty about God’s people and also about some falsehoods being perpetrated.
I respect your humble confession and apology. I won’t try to talk you out of it.
But I also beg you to continue to meet for prayer with those whom you mentioned wanting to continue to meet. I also ask you to go STRAIGHT to that person(s) who were promoting or speaking falsehoods to the congregation. TAKE ALL whom you know with you, who know the truth! This is past the Step 1 of mt. 18 if lies are being told to the entire congregation in the midst of others who know the truth. That is more like 2Tim. 3 – having a form of godliness but denying its power.
So please walk on in truth, and in your love for JESUS first. You are bought with a price. NOBODY else died in your place.
Folks:
It is clearly Brent D being referred to in the audiolink above. The man introducing Brent refers to Brent and his wife Jenny as well as to Brent’s role in Sovereign Grace Ministries. He mentiones SGM by name. The man introducing Brent also makes mention of having sat under Brent’s teaching for a number of years.
Brent D
Brent D
Brent D
Brent D
Just in case anyone in the St Giles church is doing a search on him, I’d like for them to get to hear some of the testimonies of those in his former church.
Brent D.
Here is a link to their August newsletter. It will explain their process of finding a pastor as well as the speakers for this month. It introduce Brent and his background.
http://stgilesepc.org/uploads/August1.pdf
Scroll down till you see Pastor Search Committee.
Is Brent under consideration to fill the Senior Pastor role at St. Giles or is he just pinch hitting at the request of friend? If its the former we should be judicious in our comments because perhaps the Mooresville experience has chastened him.
I could be off here, but I figure that if a pastor has repented of his abusive ways, then we will see him seeking out every person that he knows he has injured (and if he’s curious, all he has to do is google his own name and he will find a list here to start on) and will repent to them, recognizing the damage he has done, acknowledge it and seek to reconcile with that person.
Doesn’t the scripture say, “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” If this kind of thing is serious enough to walk away from the altar while you are in the middle of OFFERING A GIFT TO GOD (can you imagine how embarrassing it would be to bring an offering to the altar, before the entire place then all of a sudden stand up, leaving your gift behind, and leave the place?) If it is THAT important when you are offering a gift to God, how much more so important is it to go to those you have harmed before you ‘move on’ to pastor a church again.
This is not about not embarrassing him. This is about warning those who may soon be in his care. If he has been chastised, he will spend every day seeking out those he has harmed until he is done, right down to the least of these, my brethern. Once the least of these has been repented to, then I will believe repentance.
Stunned, I don’t know if you were “off” but you cracked me up!
Brent D…
I think in regards to this man, I was hoping that Mr. Canary and I could talk with him if we could ever find him. We hoped that his own shanking from SGM would make him open to understanding at last what we were trying to tell him all those years back. When Pam sent me the link above, I was shocked. Saddened. I certainly do not wish to injure his chances at finding another job. It just looks like “business as usual”. Maybe he has changed. But if he has, wouldn’t he at least try to make things right with people?
Defended, your question about leadership conscience and conviction is so relevant. You are very discerning.
PK, two things.
1) If I am off on what I posted above, please remove any of it.
2) I can’t seem to find the email address we can use to contact you. Would you please post it again so we can get ahold of you?
Thanks,
Stunned
Hey Stunned,
Here’s emails for the Knight (& me):
protestantknight at gmail-dot-com
protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
P.D.
Dang, DB! Bet you had a good time on Monday!
Stunned, I wish we could have lunch sometime.
Brent… Brent….you were totally cracking me up!
I had lunch with Stunned on Monday and, trust me, there’s nothing off about her.
I hope we can, too, Defended. I’d like to meet with everyone here, one of these days.
But even if we all can’t get together down here (which I hope we can), there’s another good reason to look forward to heaven. We’ll all get to be together there, in perfect harmony, perfect unity, in the light of truth and swimming in love and grace.
Word up, heaven!
We will be having “Refuge” parties in heaven for at least the first 250,985,795 years.
By then we’ll have another reason to party.
“Everybody! Over to my house for some “New Wine” next Friday!”
Address: New Jerusalem, the Defender Mansion!
You sleep over at my house-Church of the Inner Springs.
Warning- my mansion in heaven won’t have any kitchen! What a joy to think of never having to cook again!
WOW! As I began reading the St. Giles newsletter I saw that NA (Evangel. Presby pastor) has recently preached at St. Giles. This was very disconcerting to me as I had just read the earlier posts here that Brent had also been there. Apparently, a large number of folks have left NA’s church over the years because of his control and manipulation. His actions and behavior, his pastoral ”authority” and yes even spiritual abuse are strikingly similar to SGM. Frightening to see both of these names in the same newsletter!
Stunned, mine will have a kitchen because that’s where people tend to gather but instead of cooking, I will have replicators like in Star Trek, “Tea, Earl Gray, Hot..”
I’ll be down in Engineering, tossing back Romulan Ale with Kirk & Scottie.
There will be no replicated Ale or Wine in my cellar.
(Doing all I can, to resist the “Old vs New” Star Trek debate.)
Love ya DB!
What was our topic again??
Brent
Brent
Brent
Brent
sgmrefuge.com
sgmsurvivors.com
St. Giles Presbyterian Church
spiritual abuse
legalism
I have been attending KWCC for years and years and I must say this:
You will find no answers to your questions on this blog. I have read all of the postings and am appalled, but not surprised, by the way supposition becomes objective truth on these matters. I am REALLY surprised by some of the reports that are just false at best. For instance, the report of the wives asking all the hard questions at the care group leaders meeting simply wasn’t true. And then to follow it up by saying something to the effect of “Where are the MEN?!?” was just inflammatory. You won’t get your leader from a blog site, that’s for sure. And all the “facts” concerning Steve W…all I can say is wow. I wish Steve would get on here and set some things straight. For instance, the infamous “Gag Order”, was never even followed. My whole care group knew of everything that happened, by Steve’s own words, the very first month he returned from Roanoke.
Closer to the truth was that CJ was preaching against the “Therapeutic Movement” when everything went down with Steve. His situation was dangerously close to the Flavor of the Month demon SGM seems to focus on from time to time. If anything, it could have been used to refute the blanket statements being made about medicine at that time. Ahhh hindsight.
I’m done here. I found this place by accident because a friend called me on Monday from another SGM church and spoke of Brent leaving last year. Monday nite I Googled Brent and found this blog. The last 2 days has been a real eye opener for me. I have been thru 2 church splits/break ups and know of the pain and confusion that sin on a grand scale can bring.
But folks, gossip and slander is not the answer.
I’ll be waiting to see how all this therapeutic massaging affects KWCC at our next family meeting. Should be a hoot.
GNHB… I find your comments rather… ummm… interesting, to say the least, considering that those you are calling liars are your own brothers and sisters from Kingsway. The initial reports are from some who *may* just be more “in the know” than you are, and I must say, much more humble and gracious in their communication here.
Several of your comments stand out to me, but I will only address two here (at the moment…)
1. You are a member of an SGM church closely related to Brent D and you didn’t know that he had left SGM a year ago??? Doesn’t that make you sit up and go “Hmmmm”??? Why weren’t you told? Especially since Brent was one of the top guys… didn’t your leaders think that info was important enough to pass on to the membership? Don’t you think it was important enough?
2. You knew of Steve W.’s “situation” the very first month after it happened and you didn’t do or say anything to rectify this travesty that happened 10 years ago??? TEN YEARS this man and his family suffered under this horrible black cloud that was thrust upon him by your leadership at Kingsway and you just sat by and did nothing??? I’m sorry, man, but that just blows my mind! And you come on this blog doling out correction and judgment? Are you freakin’ kidding me???
Maybe instead of calling everyone here liars, you should take a long look at yourself and the Kingsway leadership… you may be very surprised at what you find out if you look closely and honestly enough.
I’m just sayin’, is all…
Regarding Brett Detwiler
The church link given does have a blog where one can leave comments and the church does have a section where you can leave comments. If they are really “auditioning” Brent Detwiler for a position at their church then they should be made aware of his background one would think. I am kind of surprised if they don’t but you never know.
http://stgilesepc.org/about-us/contact-us/
You could always leave a comment. ;-)
Stunned said:
“Doesn’t the scripture say, “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.” If this kind of thing is serious enough to walk away from the altar while you are in the middle of OFFERING A GIFT TO GOD (can you imagine how embarrassing it would be to bring an offering to the altar, before the entire place then all of a sudden stand up, leaving your gift behind, and leave the place?) If it is THAT important when you are offering a gift to God, how much more so important is it to go to those you have harmed before you ‘move on’ to pastor a church again.
This is not about not embarrassing him. This is about warning those who may soon be in his care. If he has been chastised, he will spend every day seeking out those he has harmed until he is done, right down to the least of these, my brethern. Once the least of these has been repented to, then I will believe repentance.”
One would thin that Brent Detwiler would have at least made some type of public statement or even posted something on his website (he use to have one this is now marked “private”) where he issues some type of statement of repentance and confession of sin etc. If one hasn’t done that then it is all the more probably that he will go back and do the same thing. It makes one doubt that he have ever even realize the wrongs he did to so many people that people have shared here.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing:
If I had a nickel for every time I’ve read “…gossip and slander…,” and “…I’m done here,” in drive-by, fire-lit bags of turds for comments like yours, I could go on that well-deserved therapeutic vacation PD and I keep talking about.
You had a long post for essentially saying “liars” to folks here. Save yourself (and me) some time and do just that next time.
–pk
The KingsWay Way isn’t just a play on words. Those of us who were there for many years can pretty much articulate what it means. You pick up on the unwritten rules pretty quickly.
The “culture” that allowed the mistreatment of SW also allowed the mistreatment of many other people — and I hope now that ONE situation has come to light, current members will ask questions about other inexplicable changes, disappearances, etc. Who else is under a “gag order”? How many pastoral dismissals were explained as personal decisions when there was a hidden authoritarian reason for making that ”personal” decision? I do not know if there were any at all, or if there were many. But one thing is sure now — the “trust” factor couldn’t get much lower.
I’m reminded of the Clinton administration — when they said that theirs would be the most honest administration ever. I believe they really intended it to be that way. Similarly, SGM wanted to be the finest expression of Christianity on the planet. I truly believe they really intended it to be that way. But in re-inventing the wheel, they seemingly refused to learn from the older and wiser church movements that have lasted through the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
And so, we’ve come to this horrid realization that our leaders believe that we, as members –oops, we aren’t members, we’re congregants — are not deserving of knowing the truth about the workings of this organization – this organization we’ve cheerfully supported with millions of dollars and uncountable hours of volunteer work. Every question begs another question. The average pew-sitter has got to be asking “WHAT WAS I THINKING?? How could I have been so blind?”
Why is it that everyday workings, personnel changes, problems, and sins that are matters of public record are treated as if national security is at stake? It’s the CHURCH, for goodness sake, not the CIA.
So, this man who followed SGM’s orders to keep from losing his job, lost his job anyway, was publicly scorned, and was never allowed to lead worship, teach, or preach again, though he was allowed to work as administrator of children’s ministry. If his gifts were not welcomed as a guitar player or worship leader, why were his gifts welcomed in what some might consider a thankless job? Is it that worship leaders are more exalted in SGM than children’s minsitry workers — you’ve got to be more “sinless” to be on a worship team than to work with kids? Yet scripture tells us that the greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all. If his ministry gifts were no longer welcome, did they also refuse to accept his monetary gifts?
A few discussions back, one of the former SGM pastors (don’t remember which — Irv or FSGP) mentioned that the self-appointed leader of SGM had often stressed that the church should not be run on sentiment or emotion. As I consider the Kingsway debacle, it’s easy to connect the dots. Without any sentiment or emotion, we become hard-hearted. God gave us emotions. He invented them — not to be used alone for decision-making, but as barometers, thermometers, as part of our lives. How hard-hearted to publicly call someone prideful and unbelieving. Somewhere along the way, did it become more important to follow the law of “no sentiment or emotion” than to extend love, truth and grace?
It all goes back to polity. Does this strange setup of a self-appointed leader who appoints his own underlings and demands deference to his self-appointed authority exist anywhere else in long-standing orthodox Christian denominations? I can only think of similar situations among small independent charismatic churches, but nowhere in the mainstream, and certainly not among the Reformed. There’s sometimes a similar model in parachurch organizations, but you don’t hear parachurch leaders demanding obedience to their leadership.
How simple it could’ve been, if, ten years ago, they’d said, “As you know, SW followed our directive to go to Roanoke to plant a church. He told us of his reluctance to accept this position from the outset, but we believed he was the best man for the job, and we insisted that he go despite his misgivings. However, things haven’t worked out, and we now realize that it’s best for all concerned for SW to return to Richmond. We ask for SW’s forgiveness and for yours, for putting him into a difficult situation. We’ve learned that it was wrong of us to do that, and we promise never to pressure anyone in that way again. Please extend your thanks and appreciation to him for sacrificing his own choice and for working hard to give the church in Roanoke a good start.”
That would’ve been the truth. (I think — only God knows where the truth really lies in this tangled web.) It could’ve been told honestly without damaging anyone.
Oh, well said, PK and Carole!
Steve240, I listened to some of Brent’s “message” at St. Giles. It was on What the Gospel Is Not. He says he is not there to tell them they are teaching the gospel wrongly, but then goes on to tell them what the gospel is not. Very weird. I could not listen to the whole thing. It brought back bad feelings. He seemed unsure of himself, and floundered some. In my opinion, there was little power in his words.
I don’t know if I could say anything at St. Giles to ruin his chances of finding work. I’m too much a softy. However, do we have a responsibility to get involved? Isn’t the work we do here enough? I don’t wish ill upon Brent or his family. I do however still ask what Defended has – where are these mens’ consciences? I wish someone could answer that question.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing
I am puzzled by your comments. At the Sunday night meeting AC was the first person to use the term “gag order” if I am not mistaken. That term was repeated several times during the night. You claim that there never was an actual gag order. (Or at least, it was not followed.) Are you saying that they (meaning AC, GE, SW, and MW) lied at that meeting on Sunday night? Also, I do not know what care group Steve was in at the time, but his current care group leader stood up and tearfully stated that he had no idea this was going on. Were you at the meeting with the care group leaders? Because someone altogether different reported on that, and I have heard from a second source that several wives asked hard questions. Something is not adding up here……If you have good facts that are contrary to what has been said here, and what I witnessed at the meeting, then I would love to hear them. I would have an easier time hearing, however, if you could drop the heavy emotions and stick to the facts.
Silent Running, you are so right. If only the leadership had handled SW’s situation with honesty, the way you explained it, there would have been no problem. Most of us can understand when mistakes are made and then acknowledged. It would have been forgiven and forgotten. Why was there such a great need for leaders to hide the truth?
Canary: Thank you.
Silent Running: Outstanding post at August 25th, 2010 at 9:40 pm e
Eyes Opening: We probably shouldn’t hold our breath for honest answers from GenderNeutralHumanBeing, but your inquiry is honest and appreciated and needs to be answered. GenderNeutralHumanBeing’s account was so wildly oppsite from others here that one word springs to mind: troll.
–pk
I was just re-reading a little, and noticed Heavy Heart’s usage of the word “PROUD” — qualified by “in a godly way.” How sad that SGM’s heavy emphasis on the “sin of pride” renders us reluctant to say we’re “proud of “ something when the term merely shows pleasure or admiration, not sinful proudness.
Saying you’re proud of your kids, or your friends, or your church is a compliment to them, not an admission of sin on your part. Reminds me of the misuse of the word ”gay”.
You know we are hitting the target, when the drive-by’s and trolls start posting.
Dear GenderNeutralHumanBeing,
Your name rocks! I love it. It gave me an early morning smile. Thank you.
You said, “Closer to the truth was that CJ was preaching against the “Therapeutic Movement” when everything went down with Steve. His situation was dangerously close to the Flavor of the Month demon SGM seems to focus on from time to time. If anything, it could have been used to refute the blanket statements being made about medicine at that time. Ahhh hindsight.”
Ha ha. I know what you mean by the Flavor of the Month. Were you in SGM when they spent a long time going on against kids wearing the “WWJD” bracelets? (What Would Jesus Do bracelets?) It killed me.
You also said, “For instance, the infamous “Gag Order”, was never even followed. My whole care group knew of everything that happened, by Steve’s own words, the very first month he returned from Roanoke.”
Two things struck me with this sentence. One is a question. You said, “the infamous “Gag Order”. Are you saying there was a gag order?
The other is a huge concern that you guys knew the truth of what happened to this guy and, (am I reading this right or is there a lot more to your story?) not one person in your homegroup came forward to make this truth publically known for close to a decade?!?!?! Something that was important enough to make Gene Emerson and your pastors hold a public meeting where there was supposedly much repentance for keeping this secret from the rest of the church, yet you did nothing to get the truth out for the past several years? Brother/Sister (this still cracks me up- your name is very funny), if this is true, this is sort of unconscionable and terrifying to me that not only you, but an entire group of people did nothing to correct the lies coming from your pulpit. Reminds me of many of the horrifying times in human history where people could have raised a voice but did nothing.
Silent Running said,
“Similarly, SGM wanted to be the finest expression of Christianity on the planet. I truly believe they really intended it to be that way. But in re-inventing the wheel, they seemingly refused to learn from the older and wiser church movements that have lasted through the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. ”
Yes, yes, yes! Well said. They want to be the finest expression, and some of them, maybe many of them believe they ARE. I did. Therefore, if someone doesn’t line up with the program, follow the directives, live in the mold, it is unthinkable and beyond understanding! For me, it was a strange combination of fear and pride that caused me to sear my own conscience for a season and push the folks who were “different” away. Fear – don’t want the pool to be tainted, so got to keep the riff raff away, especially from my children. Pride – we are “doing it right”, so if you are not going to “do it right”, you’re a lesser Christian than I am. Along with the pride, there was a weird quasi-emotional reaction as well. I think it is best described as pity. It went something like this: “Aw, those poor, dumb, rebellious, independent, prideful, (insert derrogatory adjective here) people. If only, oh if only they would have lined up with the program, if only they would have “done it right”. But we must harden ourselves to them, in some cases put them out of the Body whether it be directly or just out of neglect, and let God work in their lives, however harshly He may have to in order to bring them back to their senses. It’s a shame really.”
This was the reality of the culture at times and apparently in more than one location. The reason I now see it so clearly and have repented for my sin is because we became the odd ducks, the rebellious, independent, prideful problem children, so we felt the impact from the other side and were devastated. Sad to say that’s what it took for me to recognize and be rid of the fear and pride in my own heart, but it is the truth.
So God used PDI/SGM in our lives, but not in the way they thought He would! He did indeed show me areas of pride, just as they accused, but it wasn’t pride that stems from not submitting to my authorities or not “trusting the leadership”. It was a better-than-you, spiritual pride based on the atmosphere created in the church that had to go.
The twisting and contortioning that surrounds these churches in order to protect pastors that are behaving badly is reminding me of the astronomers of the middle ages that developed extremely complex mathematical formulas to preserve the notion that everything in the heavens revolved around the earth.
When the idea that the sun was the center of the solar system was presented, those established in power consiered it heresy even though it was the truth and a hell of a lot easier to calculate planatary movement. But leadership was entreanched, error was codified, truth was persecuted, and history does not smile favorably upon the closed-minded.
I wanted to do a drive by and then leave it. but just like the driver that passes the mangled vehicle on the opposite side of the road, i had to look. be careful of what you want to see.
First of all. “If I had a nickel every time I heard the words gossip and slander..” if you are getting rich on nickels perhaps it’s time to consider the source. And can you really say “turd” on a Christian blog?
Second. There are many emotions that people experience during times such as these. It’s obvious that anger isn’t accepted here. At least the way I experience it. but thats ok. i didn’t come here for consolation or comfort.
Third> Yes there was a gag order. No Steve didn’t follow it. So much of what happened at the family meeting was slanted in it’s presentation. Makes me wonder what the real story is. Why didn’t I say something to leadership? I did. There are 2 sides to every story. Both sides presented truth and both sides presented themselves in the most positive light. Alright! They Lied! Happy? If I got involved in everyone elses sins I’d never have time for my own.
Number 4 –I didn’t say the women at the care group leaders meeting didn’t ask hard questions. I corrected Drewry for reporting to the world that ONLY the women did this and then ask “Where Are The Men?”
So. Let’s review. I am a KWCC member that is angry at the way lies are affecting other members that come here for answers. Yes there are truths being said here. But the lies are affecting my friends. And you don’t think some of this is gossip or slander? What Would Jesus Read?
In the end, I shouldn’t expect anything different. In the land of Blog, this one is typical in it’s coziness. Really, if I didn’t see the words ‘church’ or ‘Christ’ every now and then I wouldn’t be able to tell this one is Godly in content. If people agree with the OP then they are welcomed in. Otherwise You are just labeled a Neutral Gender Human Being or worse.
GenderNeutralHumanBeing
Yes, there is anger here and yes, even some slander and gossip. BUT where else can we get information on what is happening???? Many, if not all of us KCC members, are dying for information on what is going on. We have unanswered questions about the past and about the future. We are still being left in the dark. The care group leaders knew about the last meeting, but us little guys did not. It would be easy for us to think that the issue is just being put on the back burner, left to simmer, and hopefully die out. At least hearing that there was a meeting and that hard questions were asked is letting me know that they are at least doing something. Where it will go from here is anyone’s guess, but this thing is a huge part of our lives. Church has been the center of my world for almost 10 years! We are all trying to get information here. If you can come up with a better way to do that, then please let me know!! As my Daddy used to say “2 wrongs don’t make a right.” If you do not like the display of anger, then please be one of the ones who reaches out without it. If there is misinformation please provide us with correct info. Since you seem to have some friends in high places, perhaps you could suggest that they set up some kind of ‘information central’ where we could get answers to our questions??
Gracie you wrote:! For me, it was a strange combination of fear and pride that caused me to sear my own conscience for a season and push the folks who were “different” away. Fear – don’t want the pool to be tainted, so got to keep the riff raff away, especially from my children. Pride – we are “doing it right”, so if you are not going to “do it right”, you’re a lesser Christian than I am. Along with the pride, there was a weird quasi-emotional reaction as well. I think it is best described as pity. It went something like this: “Aw, those poor, dumb, rebellious, independent, prideful, (insert derrogatory adjective here) people. If only, oh if only they would have lined up with the program, if only they would have “done it right”. But we must harden ourselves to them, in some cases put them out of the Body whether it be directly or just out of neglect, and let God work in their lives, however harshly He may have to in order to bring them back to their senses. It’s a shame really.”
This speaks to my heart! This is how I believed “about myself”….
Gender Neutral: I believe many of us on this blog are just looking for GOD’S WAY…. Not angry at all but still loving the family of Sovereign Grace and the family of God. Anyone is welcome here to discuss the Lord I think but it was developed because people had been WOUNDED AND SHUNNED……..
Paul wrote to the Corinthians that his words were not “wise and persuasive” but rather a “demonstration of the Spirit’s power” in order that their faith “might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power” (1 Cor. 2:4-5)
Remember the Bereans were lifted up as good examples because they questioned the things they were taught. They made sure that even the apostles’ teachings were in line with what was written: Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true… Acts. 17:11
God is good and I believe in total control! I pray that I have never made any one feel that I’m against the family of God on this blog. I found healing in the fact that I did in fact have Godly discernment on some issues and that I wasn’t just a prideful, rebellious woman that would never be able to learn how to submit to Christ, authority or a husband one day! You have no idea how much turmoil my heart was in during the four years of my life when I believed I was such a prideful and horrible person that would never measure up!
THAT IS NOT WHO GOD CREATED ME TO BE!
GNHB-
Thanks for setting some of your statements straight. I’ll not offer the same for your clear misrepresentation of FACTS. The statements that I’ve made are true and have been confirmed prior to posting here with many who were present. I’m not saying these things to inflame you or any of your friends. If you read the entirety of my posts so far, then you’ll see that I am concerned about how this affects ALL of my brothers and sisters. I recognize that some are opposed to the things that I am sharing. I realize that what I am saying, as well as others, appears critical. In some way I suppose it is. But is that wrong?
” Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. ” Winston Churchill
That’s what has occurred here.
GNHB, you may attempt to discredit me. You are welcome to try that. Again, my statements are true:
The women surprisingly outnumbered the men in asking the hard questions at the CGL meeting. I’ve confirmed that from multiple men that were present… even men that don’t agree with me on where I stand in this matter.
As for calling out the men on there leadership. I am not saying that all of the men at KW are absent on this matter. Many are wrestling through and leading in the process of Matt 18, which we at KW are in. I am calling out the men that are absent. This is not a time to be a coward. This is a time to biblically wrestle through the matters of polity, Gene’s sin, other KW leaders role in this, and the churches responsibility both as we handled the past, not only with Steve W. but other families and how we will move forward. This is not a time to sit on the side and pout about feelings. This is the time for men to be men and do it in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures. I’ll ask again, “Where are the Godly men of KW?” I know that you are present. I beg you to take a stand for truth and love, for all of the church! That doesn’t mean posting here or shouting from the rooftops but it does mean acting as the Lord leads each of you, even when your natural tendencies are to be timid or silent.
GNHB, truthfully I don’t know if you’ll take this offer but I’d be delighted to meet with you. These matters, while highly abrasive at times should not divide us if at all avoidable. We may not agree on all of the issues at hand, or any, but I’d definitely like the opportunity to bring reconciliation between you and I. It’s obvious that my words have affected you and it appears were the catalyst to prompt your anger. I’d like to resolve that if we can. My convictions here are firm but please give me a chance. I’m really not unreasonable.
There are not “two-sides to every story.” There are only two perceptions of that story. Take the information and wisely compare it to the absolute teaching of Scripture and you’ll find that this is wrong in many ways. Gene is not alone in that. The church is too. Your own words of having knowledge and not saying anything, testifies to that. I know that probably angers but it is true. Many others are also responsible of the same. It was and in some ways is still the culture of KW and SGM. We’d rather do anything to avoid friction. The teaching of unity is often skewed to lead us to believe that we shouldn’t say anything that could be perceived as hard.
Jonathan Edwards had a great understanding of Ephesians 4. He described the unity that was spoken of in that text as that which grows us up into the same understanding of faith in Christ. That’s quite different than practicing the over-looking of sin to spare us of any hardship which might cause division. Edward’s understanding of unity will cause division but the division will only come between those that are moving towards Christ and those that are not. It will only unify those seeking to be built up together in Christ.
This situation is not one that should cause division. This is an amazing opportunity to grow closer together as we all move towards Christ. That’s why we can not ONLY look to love for the brethren OR truth but both must be held as precious and understood that true unity in Christ came only come with truth spoken in love, the truth of Scripture… not your view or mine.
Ephesians 4:13-15 “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by the craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.”
We need to put aside this nonsense of extra-biblical teachings and out and out falsehoods. The Scriptures plainly state to speak the truth in love. It is the means God uses to have us grow up into Christ (unity). This is the measure of unity, not the cunning speeches that many give about building relationships. Let’s unify and let’s build relationship, but let’s do it in truth. What you are seeing now is that message brought into the light. No one is pretending that this will be easy but it must be done.
One last thought!
I would love it if some of the woman I thought so much of still desired to have me a their Sister in Christ…. I desired to be LIKE THEM!
I now know who I am in Christ…. I love the Lord with all of my heart and I still love them. I still love the Pastor that counseled me through many HARD TIMES….
I just don’t agree with all of their ways… This doesn’t make speaking TRUTH – Wrong!
Bruised, you have a beautiful heart in the Lord. That you can still love those who hurt you is a great testimony of God’s love within you.
Hi Gracie! I hope you are doing well…:)
PK,
Do you know if the pastors at Kingsway have offered or are willing to visit with individual members in order to answer questions and concerns?
Chuck
Bruised, the above about what you were made to be and the fact that you are NOT a prideful, rebellious woman that would never be able to learn how to submit to Christ, authority or a husband one day, I just want to say, AMEN! That is NOT you, Sister. it is so clear that you have a heart to want to love God and follow Him in spit eof your fallen nature (that we ALL have).
Mike D.,
Any time you quote Churchill, you’ll have me at your side. (Usually laughing. He was the funniest of all politicians in my book.)
Bruised said, “Remember the Bereans were lifted up as good examples because they questioned the things they were taught. They made sure that even the apostles’ teachings were in line with what was written.”
A-MEN!
Mike D. said, “but it does mean acting as the Lord leads each of you.”
Amen, amen and amen. Oh Lord, let it be so. I long to see the day when God leads us each and we hear what He is telling us individually.
I know it seems to some that if God is leading Person A to do X then Person B should be doing X. But then who will do Y or Z or P? (Forgive me, I’ve taught one too many math classes.) I often imagine God being like a general in an army. He is not going to send ALL his troops to the left flank and leave the cannons and fighter jets empty. He has a different plan for EACH of us. And it’s a beautiful thing.
Stunned
The day that we think God would prefer “unity” at the expense of truth and another man’s soul, we forget the words of Jesus in Matt. 10. “”Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Bruised, dear sister, I am guessing you no longer desire to become like anyone who would shun another simply for no longer being in the same church. It doesn’t sound like you at all. It’s much too cold, and much beneath the way God made you to be. I am only saying that in case you had never considered this. Become just the way He leads you to be. That will be the best.
Stunned, the church promotes “uniformity” while the Holy Spirit desires “unity”. They both look very different from one another!
Eyes Opening wrote:
Yes, there is anger here and yes, even some slander and gossip. BUT where else can we get information on what is happening???? Many, if not all of us KCC members, are dying for information on what is going on. We have unanswered questions about the past and about the future. We are still being left in the dark.
Thank you EO for this simple sheep’s plea to be in the know. That is why they come here. KW leaders, please don’t be elitist; keep your flock informed. They love you, they deserve your trust.
Mike, brother, keep carrying the torch. Your love for God and His people, and your passion for the truth is evident in all your words.
P.D.
Yes, GNHB, I can really say “turd” on a Christian blog. Because, from my perspective, that’s about how much profundity your first appearance here had.
It came off as you essentially telling others here that they don’t have a grip on the truth, to not point fingers, not to slander and not to gossip…and then you proceeded to buttress this by telling everyone here that your persepective is the truth, and essentially pasted anyone who disagreed with you language that essentially said, “liars!”
The nickel and turd imagery are illustrations, GNHB. Imagery designed to drive a point home. If these images are disturbing to you, please start by chastising the Apostle Paul for his “filthy rags,” “open grave,” and “dung” statements, and then you can move down the list of those in the Bible who have done the same. Let me know how it works out for you when get to Christ Himself. You can bet Paul used the vernacular of the day, and that our English translations blunt the sharp edge.
GNHB, if you come running into a room throwing chum at people–yes, I can say “chum” on a Christian blog–don’t be surprised if someone tells you what they think about chum-throwing, and certainly don’t retort with weak “consider the source” language that’s on par with a third grader saying, “look what you made me do!” Consider the source of poor leadership that has left so many sheep bloodied and scattered. You remind me of leaders who hold such an impossibly high standard of their flock members, yet leave themselves exempt from such standards by the way they live their lives and what falls out of their mouths.
If you want to address subjects here and voice objections, don’t start by calling people liars, and then act surprised when they don’t appreciate it, and certainly don’t act surprised when the blog moderator doesn’t appreciate it.
SGM has had a voice and bully pulpit for decades, and has a slightly better marketing dept. budget that can watch its back. The folks here don’t, aside from this blog. Many are here because the appeals to leadership at multiple levels regarding ill practices in SGM they made went unanswered at best, and got smashed at worst. Some are starting to sit up and pay attention, ranging from gracefully conceding to grudgingly admitting that (drum roll) not everyone on this blog is a liar. And this blog that is filled with so much untruth, according to you, has helped facilitate many reconciliations, so far…many more need to happen, and SGM should undergo radical refromation in the opinion of many, but it’s not a limited, subjective view when so many people describe patterns of poor practices nationally in SGM churches. The latest newsflash here is that KingsWay is not on the cleaner end of the washcloth than any of the other churches. The problems tend to be systemic, as in movement-wide, hence these blogs were born when Christians had the guts to put two and two together.
You are not on the cleaner end of the washcloth than other KW members/ex-members here. At least exhibit some sort of pretense in this vein before you keep firing machine guns in every direction.
Yes, I can say “machine gun” on a Christian blog.
–pk
machine gun
machine gun
machine gun
(sorry, couldn’t resist)
Oh, I have been downright scatological on Christian blogs and elsewhere.
In fact, I was discussing fossils with Julianna this morning and she asked if egg shells could be preserved to which I replied not onl egg shells but the embryos inside in fact we have dinasaur eggs.
She was thrilled.
Then I said dinoturds have been found to which she responded in typical pre-adolescent disgust.
Which eased when I assured her they were too old to stink.
And that we could analyze (excuse the pun) the contents to determine diet (at least in theory.)
Which reminds me, I told her that she might be able to find some for sale on ebay and I did promise I would check so I’m off to fulfill a promise <g>
Stunned,
NO I WOULDN’T SHUN ANYONE!
But have been Shunned………………………………
I was just replying to Gracie…. In all honesty.. I was never “totally allowed in”…
was loved and treated amazingly during my courtship process… but once that ended… So did my open door to the SG family!
PK, don’t forget to leave out the part where Paul tells the legalistic people that he wishes they would go all the way with circumcision and cut off their entire…
I love the scientific mind of DB.
Mr. Canary has dino poop! It is fossilized…not a smidgen of stink…sorta like an SGM conflict that ages…no more smell but it is still poop!
Eyes Opening— You expressed the DEEP GAPING HOLE in sgm leadership:
Their lack of being open and honest (truthful, no smoke-screens,manipulations,
human cunnings, or spinnings) with the congregants.
And the questions begs to be asked:
WHY do they so separate themselves from simply speaking all the truth to their
fellow Christians???????? WHY do they go to such lengths to do so????
Why not reflect Jesus Christ, who never deviated from truth???????????
Why such a common coziness with deception and deflection????
Why not continue to have open meetings with ALL KingsWay membership???
What do they have to hide…or seek to control?????
Mike D words: (men) “I beg you to take a stand for truth and love for all of the church.”
**** WHY WOULD YOU NOT ???????? ****
Obviously, the Lord has brought KingsWay into the light — it is ever so much wiser to
fight in the full light of day rather than the dark. Ask —Seek — Knock — for Truth
Chuck:
Apologies I missed your question (until now): “PK, Do you know if the pastors at Kingsway have offered or are willing to visit with individual members in order to answer questions and concerns?”
I don’t have personal knowledge of this, but Kingsway pastors and members would know. Any of you at KW want to answer Chucks’ question?
Apologies again, Chuck, for the delayed response.
Ideally I pray they (pastors) would be/are doing this, and my prayer would be that it’s not a table-turning session (i.e., it turns into a discussion about the member’s sin rather than answering concerns about the church). The table-turning has typically been the pattern based on the experiences of most here on the blog who’ve been members in SGM churches, but I hope and pray sobriety on the part of the pastors is what takes place.
–pk
All this deep discussion about dino-turds and machine guns has put me in the mood to watch Jurassic Park, where there’s a great shot of a Triceratops pile (Jeff Goldblum: “Dino…droppings…droppings?”) and a wonderful scene of a teenager getting showered with dino-snot from a dino-sneeze.
PD, we really must get the Jurassic Park DVD…We haven’t had our VHS (8-track) version for years. Bring on the dinosaurs.
Apologies if this is too much levity, I had a compulsion to lighten things up here temporarily…okay, back to the serious stuff…
–pk
In reference to the willingness of KW pastors to meet with individuals or to even offer such…
They have repeatedly delivered mass invitations to have anyone that feels “they may have been wronged” to come to them individually. As for turning the tables, I don’t know. I haven’t heard of any specific recent cases. Deflecting blame, yes… more subtle that way.
Love the movie, PK. You can get the Jurassic Park Trilogy at Amazon for $17.99 on DVD. FYI…NOW back to the serious stuff…
Turning the tables has been such a typical response from SGM leaders over the years when a member brings questions or correction to them (I’m sure there must be exceptions). It’s best to go prepared if you choose to meet with a pastor. Even better to go in a group because there is strength in numbers.
There are dinoturds on ebay (more thrilled than I should be.)
So, PK, since the dinoturds are creating a spirit of levity, I presume they’re floaters and not sinkers.
Ducking.
PK,
We don’t have this movie?! What?! (I say this a lot at our house, BTW).
“Bring on the dinosaurs!” and while we’re at it….
“Release the Kraken!”
P.D.
Jurassic Park = I love that movie!
KW = about time. But the leadership knows of several they have wronged…it is THEIR responsibility to go to them. Or forsake prayer and communion.
A friend of mine, (probably reading this, hey girlfriend!), left KW. No contact from anyone there. CGL calls a year later and tells HER to call Gene, he wants to talk to her.
Do those guys even READ scripture?
Perhaps they teach this stuff in seminaries that aren’t only eight months long, but a shepherd gives his life for his sheep, not the other way around.
DB, Our grandsons would be beyond thrilled to be the owners of dinoturds!! Exciting!
RT, In regards to your friend who left KW a year go, who was contacted by a CGL to
“tell HER to call Gene, he wants to talk to her.” — This sounds more like a summons
from a government official/dictator/king. Hmmmmmm…. could this be because
Gene stands in the ‘ very stead of God ‘, therefore said former congregant must
ever so quickly enter into his court? With the proper peon demeanor, of course.
– This is typical typical typical sgm leadership.
It made her feel like a bug.
WOW, things sure have been moving along hot and heavy since I lasted looked. For those at Kingsway, MB stands for Mark Bogert. My first post a few days ago highlighted Bob Dixon’s incredible and authentic example of a true Sheppard’s heart in his nine year quest to have Steve W. restored. I had wanted to make KCC and SGM aware of how significant his actions have been to the body of Christ.
As we (KCC) walk through this difficult time, many members are not sure what to think. For some, the information is so new and incomplete. It is both confusing and disturbing to others for many reasons. I (we) have believed that following our leadership is tantamount to following Christ. I (we) have given almost complete deference to leaderships authority in almost all spiritual and church matters. In short, I (we) have been very passive and neglectful of our responsibility. We all have been good followers at KCC. The challenge I have had to face this last year is, who am I a good follower of? I know that following leadership and following God is not contradictory, however following leadership is always subordinate to following God. As I have shifted my focus away from man and set it completely (as much as I am able) on following Christ, His Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit, a REVOLUTION is taking place. I am full of hope and faith in God, to bring His bride (KCC) face to face with Himself. He is the Chief Sheppard, we can trust Him if we trust Him alone. His Word and Spirit will guide us. Pray without ceasing.
I’m glad she is outta there – and still, GE remains clueless to his own actions.
So much work: pick up the phone, find the CGL’s number (he has moved out of town), explain the situation to him, tell him to call her and tell her the message. CGL finds her number, calls her, explains the situation.
Just logically, apart from spiritual and dominance game playing, it would take so much less time.
Grow up, GE. You don’t live in a vacuum.
DB, You crack me up! (Sinkers or floaters?)
I was a little boy playing in the dirt many years ago, and found this strange crescent shaped stone. I used to haul it around in my Tonka trucks in the sand box.
I still have that strange shaped stone.
Then recently while watching “Jurassic Park”, in the opening scene where the scientist is talking to the little boy about the seriousness of the Raptors, he took from his pocket a fossilized Raptor claw. (I thought OMG!)
This was only in the last year, I realized, that my funny stone is a Raptor claw.
So, ya just never know what kind of “gems” you may have laying around.
Turds or claws, it’s just amazing sometimes.
Speaking of turds, any more “news” from our gender neutral “friend?”
Funny how Mike and Mark come here, engage graciously, use their OWN names, speak with logic and grace.
Yet the one with all truth comes here, and doesn’t even disclose their sex.
Whatever.
RT said it made her feel like a bug, was she a dung beetle?
MB wrote: “I (we) believed that following leadership was tantamount to
following Christ………..”
MB, did you happen to read over on Survivors, Irvs post #50 under
the KingsWay thread?? He outlines the foundations of PDI/sgm beginnings
of both pastoral leadership authority and the priority importance of the
“local church” (‘local church’ the sgm way). Irv was a sgm pastor and shares the
inside manipulations of sgm leadership.
Irv— A late thankyou for your complete honesty on the #50 post. Refreshing
and so encouraging to see how the Lord has worked His Redemption into your
lives. He can and does deliver us from those religous vipers!
(Remember, sgm,— Jesus the Christ declared the Pharisees to be vipers)
MB — Hey, Mark! I’ve always thought the world of you and P. Thanks for posting here.
When we first joined SCR back in the dark ages, we were concerned that in a church with no elders / deacons that there would be no accountability. It was explained to us that the “leadership team” worked closely with the pastors, thereby providing accountability. BD and BM were, to my knowledge, always part of that leadership team – both these men, if you ask me, are beyond reproach, and have had our utmost respect for many years.
And here’s the rub. Their pleas were ignored for nine years. So much for accountability. So much for the leadership team having any influence over a rogue pastor. How terribly, terribly sad. A pastor hand-picks his leadership team — and when they turn out not to be “yes men”, he spends nine years fighting their input.
Oh, and the invitation for wronged people to contact the pastors and come in for a chat? Hogwash. Nobody in their right mind wants to walk into a lion’s den and hear, “First, let’s talk about your sin”, or the latest catch phrase, “Perhaps this isn’t the church for you.”
It could be that many people have already forgiven and do not harbor any ill feelings. Even so, they deserve the courtesy of an apology. The leaders know who they’ve wronged. It’s their responsibility to make amends — and not in their own cozy offices — they must go. It’s the biblical thing to do. It may take a long time, but it will be time well spent.
(Did anybody see Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Gotta Give”? His character spent six months looking up all the women he’d wronged — and in the process, he learned the truth about himself. and became a better person. Not exactly a biblical example, but you get the drift.)
One more thing. When this situation became public and the Kingswayers started posting on the blogs, a huge burden lifted from me. I hadn’t even realized it was there — but I had been burdened that the wonderful people of this church had been deceived and didn’t know it. But now they know, and another layer of healing has begun. Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow!
God is at Work
I am confident that God is at work
In spite of all the confusion about
He knows where evil does lurk
And that is without a doubt
Evil lives within us all
That’s what the bible states
So why come here to brawl
For a church in dire straits
Better go to bended knee
For His will must be done
The truth will set them free
And glorify His only Son
Join together as saints to pray
For a miracle to occur
We’ll stand together on that day
No more will we differ
I beg you all to pray and stand in the gap for the beloved at Kingsway! Be assured that God is directing and will have His way here. Rather than speculating and talking about the situation here anymore, I beg of you with a sincere and needy heart to begin to post prayers for the saints of Kingsway, for the pastors and for the men that are standing in the gap. All of them sinners, all in need of God’s wonderful and never ending grace. In the end God will have His way here at Kingsway, of this we can be certain. Amen!
Can I ask a simple question? How big (members?) is KWCC?
Meet in a building or a school?
thanks…..gotta go check out ebay now….
Silent Running! I keep thinking of the Jack Nicholson character in that movie, too! How come the author of that movie (someone who is most likely not a believer), seems to get repentance and restitution but a supposed minister of the gospel has to be told about it on a blog?!
They built a large building about five-six years ago…maybe more, did a recent addition. Lots of property in a bedroom suburb of Richmond. Met in a local school for years, using the name Southside Church of Richmond.
Numbers? I don’t know–500-750?
Because prayers are not written out on a blog does not mean that they are not being sent to the father. Perhaps many of you are comfortable doing that; in my case, I pray to the Father, and don’t have the slightest inclination to write out the words my heart cries out on a blog. Jesus rebuked the pharisee in the temple for praying before man, to be commended for his noble humble words (although I seriously doubt we’d have this problem here, my sisters and brothers here are wonderful, thoughtful, godly people).
I suspect, Poet, this is not the place for you, but thank you for your graciousness and good advice. Perhaps you could read through many of the stories of hurt and grief before you come here and tell these brothers and sisters to shut up.
Many are praying for KW and other SGM churches. I don’t sense any brawling here, could you be more specific?
Poet,
I can say from my heart…. I do believe your prayer! GOD IS AT WORK….
Many have been hurt and wounded… they are all just trying to heal and sincerely praying that God touch hearts! I believe this.
We all know what WE DESERVE IN THIS LIFE…… Death…. But praise God
that Christ has allowed us to receive GRACE… SOMETHING NONE OF US DESERVE! God is moving and most on this site are EXCITED ABOUT THAT and optimistic that his BRIDE will repent and turn from following man to following the Lord…..
Stunned: (Did anybody see Jack Nicholson in “Something’s Gotta Give”? His character spent six months looking up all the women he’d wronged — and in the process, he learned the truth about himself. and became a better person. Not exactly a biblical example, but you get the drift.)
I agree…. good example of what all of us should do…..
Especially when we come before the Lord for communion/Lords supper… it is at that time that we certainly should be reminded who we may need to RUN TO AND ASK FOR THEIR FORGIVENESS!
I keep thinking I’m healed enough to move beyond this site but I find my heart coming back and wanting to lift up his church family EVEN MORE!
Poet,
You and those at King’s Way are saints! Paul constantly addressed his letters to the saints of such and such. Using the “sinner” excuse for the wrong doings by your pastor is just a cop out. One of the major ways the saints in SGM have even discovered the truth about the control and deception among some of its leadership is because of this blog. Believe me, this is not a fun experience. We don’t wake up in the morning and think, “Oh goody, I get to go post all the awful things I know about SGM.” We do this because it is a cause we feel deeply about. We are warning the saints in SGM to seek reform, to stand boldly for the Lord as they speak out and ask questions without fear. Many of us did talk with our pastors and got the ole’ heave ho – “it’s your sin” and “maybe this is not the church for you” was said often enough to be a pattern. One day maybe you will have your own conflict with leadership and then be thankful we were here to warn you. I hope that never happens to you but, if it does, we’re here for you.
Maybe this needs to be said again (it’s been said so often but oh well…): We are not here to destroy SGM. We are here to call out for reform because we love all the saints we were forced to leave there. We are a refuge for those who are leaving right now and for those who have left in the past due to pastoral abuse. PK can probably say it better, but there you are. Also, we do pray for SGM. How can we not? THEY are part of US, the church, the Body of Christ. Hope this doesn’t sound too stern – I haven’t had my coffee yet – so I’m being blunt. Welcome to the blog, by the way!
Brawl— ‘ To quarrel or fight noisely; a rough noisey quarrel or fight ‘
Poet— Methinks you mistake reporting events for a “brawl”??
Please reread many of the posted prayers on this thread from saints who are
interceeding for KingsWay. Some post prayer — and most or probably all,
posting here, are praying on a continuous basis…. First, of course, it is good to
know specifics on HOW to pray. Its a battle. Strategy is necessary.
For those standing in the gap at KingsWay and for KingsWay:
Nehemiah 4: 6, 13-14
“So we built the wall and the whole wall was joined together to half its height, for the people had a mind to work.”
“…….then I stationed MEN in the lowest parts of the wall, THE EXPOSED PLACES,
and I stationed the people in families with their swords, spears and bows.
(note— each family/person was strong in a particular means of warfare)
When I saw their fear, I rose up and spoke to the nobles, the officials, and the rest of the people: ‘Do not be afraid of them; REMEMBER THE LORD WHO IS GREAT
AND AWESOME, AND FIGHT FOR YOUR BROTHERS, YOUR SONS,
YOUR DAUGHTERS, YOUR WIVES, AND YOUR HOUSES.’
Note verse 20 –Nehemiah stationed a trumpeter in each area, so whatever area was under attack , where the enemy breached the wall (battling sgm: lies,schemes,manipulations,smokescreens,aggresions)–the trumpet was blown to report the exposed place — the warriors engaged and fought, and triumphed.
Praying/battling………………..
Waters said, “Note verse 20 –Nehemiah stationed a trumpeter in each area, so whatever area was under attack , where the enemy breached the wall …the trumpet was blown to report the exposed place — the warriors engaged and fought, and triumphed.”
AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN!
It was Silent Running who first brought up the Jack Nicholson thing. Great thinking, Silent.
Stunned
who will NEVER be called Silent but has longed for it throughout her life!
Poet–interestingly enough, it is because of this blog that your stuff at Kingsway is happening. God has used this as a catalyst in many ways, both for healing and for reform.
Hello everyone,
I’m not a regular poster here, this is actually only my 2nd or 3rd post. I am a former “PDIte” (left right about the time it became SGM) so I go WAY back. Some of you who are here from Kingsway (Southside when I was there) may remember me (or not
as Anita Stokes.
When I heard a few years back that something happened to SW, I was very sad, as I and my (Ex) spent MANY hours with them – we were in their homegroup. However, I knew nothing about the events or what happened, as SGM is wonderful about keeping their dirty little secrets by using the excuse of “not gossiping”. Amazing how much you can hide by taking advantage of the trusting hearts of people . . .
Anyway, I just wanted to say that it absolutely sickens me to hear of the torment they have been through. All I can say is how terribly sorry I am that they were victims of yet another “debacle” by supposed Godly men.
If I had not REPEATEDLY experienced for myself the hypocrisy, ineptitude and unrighteous judgment of these so called “leaders” (I was coerced and manipulated by leadership into staying in a completely abusive and tormenting marriage way back in 1987 at “Metro Life” when I had FULL biblical rights to divorce – if you know what I mean) I would be shocked and bewildered by this revelation, but I know it all too well. It is no small wonder that the world wants nothing to do with “American Christianity”. At best, it is impotent and at worst, poisonous and deadly. Yet another reason I will never set foot inside another church. (I’ve been a Christian for 40 years.)
Much of church leadership today is no better than the Catholic church in Luther’s day, telling people to “pay” the priests in order to get their loved ones out of purgatory. These so-called leaders have a LOT of explaining to do.
I am now GLORIOUSLY happy and married to a wonderful man who clearly hates manipulation and control as much as I do. The ONLY sadness in my life is that my “Ex” has subtly manipulated my two youngest children into believing outright lies about me and they have not spoken to me since last Christmas (remember your lessons from PDI/SGM – we cannot associate with “sinners”). Seems he learned his lessons well . . . Oh, and I was a homeschooling mother for 20 years and gave up everything to devote myself to my family, which I will NEVER regret doing!
Manipulation and control is poison, and destroys everything it touches. But I am glad to see that their sin is FINALLY being “shouted from the rooftops”!! Time for them to join the ranks of the REST of us “sinners” instead of being the “Untouchables”!
Free at last, free at last!!! Thank God Almighty, I’m free at last!!
Anita (formerly Stokes) Moore
Canary! You and those at King’s Way are saints! Paul constantly addressed his letters to the saints of such and such. Using the “sinner” excuse for the wrong doings by your pastor is just a cop out. One of the major ways the saints in SGM have even discovered the truth about the control and deception among some of its leadership is because of this blog.
Way to tell it!! Preach it Sister!
while the poetic version of “shut up” was clever, I continue to shake my head at brothers or sisters IN THE LORD calling each other “evil”!! WHAT does this say about the precious price Jesus paid for our souls?! There is so much more in the Scriptures about how God sees us thru the blood of Jesus as precious, seated with Him in heavenly places and a NEW CREATION in Christ!
Of course we have a battle with our flesh but by the power of God, He helps us win as we focus on Him, not our sin!
Amen, Defended! Just saw your two campers and they are doing fine. Thanks for the goodies,too!
Anita – We rejoice with you and praise God for your freedom and your new life. Thank you for sharing your story and your heart. Know that we will pray for the restoration with your children. At the end of the day truth will prevail.
What started as a response to GNHB, has turned out to be a lengthy explanation and confession of sorts. I did not intend this but spoke freely. I hope that the explanations and examples from my life might help some in their quest for God’s truth and the rich fulfillment He alone brings.
GNHB- Thank you for posting here, I mean it. I assume you are one of my brothers at KCC. I would like to touch on one idea you talked about that affects both of us. If the following does not apply to you, please disregard. A lot of the following applies to me and perhaps to others. You said, “Alright! They lied! (leaders) Are you happy?” They lie, you lie, we all lie; what’s a person to do. A witch hunt? No. Deal with it. Cope, its part of your life, its part of my life. Do I have your sentiments correct? Yet, you state in your earlier post that you are angry for how all the lies here are affecting your friends. I would be angry too. You are upset about these lies here, however not so much about leadership’s? (If they have). There is a clear contrast that you seem to accept in your treatment of individuals. You are very upset at one group of liars but you are not of another. You seem to give your leaders a pass. It is not about the lie per say, but what you do in response to it, more specifically, what you believe about them. I would like to suggest that you believe that leadership is somehow fundamentally different and they deserve different treatment. You may also believe that it is not yours or the church’s responsibility to hold them accountable. We all understand that when we lie there are consequences and we also recognize that when leadership participates in lies the consequences are magnified. So if you do believe that leadership should be treated differently, the difference is greater accountability not giving any sort of pass.
The culture of deferment to leaders is well entrenched. There are numerous examples of this. These examples are understood well from Irv’s post on Survivors, Kingsway#50. Thank you, Irv. I would like to use examples from my own life to help illustrate this and demonstrate a degenerating cycle that I have been part of and caught in. The cycle goes like this. First, a well positioned lie (that is I believe error).Second, cloaked idolatry (that is my actions support and convince me of the lie) Third, deception (that is by giving in to the lie in both belief and practice I cannot see the lie for what it is). As I have attempted to look with open eyes, study the word and ask God, a new awareness has come that has helped me see the fruit of this in my life.
I would like to interject here that we also have to be careful that we esteem men more by their actions of godliness and love than by their talk of it. A prime example of this is Bob’s actions toward the lost sheep (Steve W.) as compared to leadership’s actions. Please understand, this is not about condemning our leaders or leadership but about recognizing truth in word and deed and how it protects all of us in the body of Christ.
Okay the fact is, lies affect us all deeply. Lies are the very foundation of deception. Lying is not a small matter, for the moment we participate in this darkness, if we persist; we begin to lose our ability to see the truth. We may become deceived. Lies have affected me and they have affected you. I believe, you and I are in this very place because of lies. Deception is serious. When deceived, we no longer fear God but don’t even know it. I would like to talk about a lie that has greatly affected me and possibly others.
The lie is in the form of a belief. The belief I speak of is that godly leadership, a passionate church and an impressive organization will meet my needs for meaning and fulfillment. While I wouldn’t state it this way, my heart was drawn to this reality, this love. Think about this. Think about our confidence in these things. I remember in the earlier days being enamored by our church and SG. To be honest, I was more interested in the inviting people to church then inviting them to Christ, sad I know. For a while KCC and SGM seemed to me to be a Christianized sociological masterpiece of 30 something friendships. I loved it. I was far more interested and better at “love bombing” visitors then evangelism and discipleship. Why? Because this is what I wanted, this is what stimulated me, this is what I believed in, along with God of course. It was the belief (lie) that these things (leaders, church, and organization) will meet my needs for fulfillment that caused the worship of them. So, I took these otherwise very good things and in my belief (lie) looked to them, submitted to them and worshipped them synonymous with God. By believing this lie I grew in my own deception. While these thoughts were all supported by half truths, I became a religious idolater. As I lost my ability to discern, I got caught in this vicious cycle. As long as I accepted the lie, Satan the father of lies, had a place to work in my life. Having believed that I needed these things for my meaning and fulfillment, I also believed that I must protect them, guard them and defend them because in large part, this is where I believed life was found. I remember not too long ago how personally offended and callous I felt toward people who dared to leave our church. Very noteworthy was my lack of love and judgmental thoughts toward a brother or sister for deciding to worship elsewhere. I took this somewhat personally, they rejected what I loved. I struggled with this. This was some of the fruit of my religious idolatry. It saddens me today to think about this. I have always thought of myself as more independent and believed that I was not so deeply affected however I was deceived. I write this because this may be affecting you as well. I wish I were totally free of these effects however as I have recently discovered, I am not.
What we see in this simple illustration is how Christ and his love were obscured by “this whole church thing”. My love and adoration of leaders, church, and organization contended for the sufficiency and supremacy of Christ. In Exodus 34:14, God’s name is jealous. God is a jealous God. He is jealous for his glory. He is jealous for us to love and obey him not only because it brings him glory but it also brings us good. He purifies us out of his love for us, even the very best of things that interfere with his receiving all glory. In my opinion, this is exactly what is going on at KCC and SGM. Because of his great love, he is purifying his bride.
I would not have believed that I put leaders, church, or organization before Christ, his Word or the Holy Spirit. I simply believed these things were part of my love for God. What challenged this was an awareness of the degree to which I desired, preferred, depended and acted on these things instead of God’s Word and his Spirit. By God’s grace this became very clear to me the other day.
I have a real burden for our church. I knew of a significant meeting last Friday a week ago with the CGL’s and the pastors. Believing that what is unseen (spiritual) is more an essence of reality (eternal) then the seen, I knew that and unseen battle for truth would take place. Prayer, a primary weapon of our warfare would be needed. I believed that members should gather at the church to stand in the gap and pray while the meeting was taking place. Yet, I had a check to that thought and leading. Unsure of how this meeting would be received by leadership, I called my CGL. He was concerned as well and suggested I call people to pray. I sent out an e-mail through a friend instead. I believe many people prayed fervently and God answered. What could be missed here and what should not be missed was my deferment to what (I believed) my leaders wishes were over what I believed God’s wishes were. Whether my leaders would have liked this or not is not the real issue. I made following man more important than following God. In this brief interaction, I woke up to the depths of deception that I still had accepted in my own heart. Could it be possible that I neglected prayer, corporate prayer and obedience to God because I had willingly accepted the fear of man in the name of submission? I know the truth. It is idolatry to fear man more than God. We have fancy ways to justify it all, but thanks be to God for his revelation and repentance. God is a jealous God. He will not give his glory to another, be it leaders, a church or an organization. He will purify his bride, which is all of us, for our good.
With regards to quarrels, dissensions, and fractions of which we are all concerned at KCC, we must realize that these occur because of conflicting beliefs as to where life is really found. If we believe, consciously or unconsciously that leadership, church, or an organization has made our living significant, than when this is threatened we seek to preserve and defend it or else we lose life. As David Neeham has said, “… a goal (in this case, optimal church) can easily become THE goal and as such it becomes the measurement of where life or meaning is to be found. It then becomes an idol-a very fragile idol at that. As an idol, they cannot help but cast a shadow on the priority of God-his joy, his sufficiency, his glory”. My concern is that as long as idolatry and deception of this kind remains, darkness remains. Our only hope for true unity is found in the complete emptying of ourselves to obey Christ and see Christ as our all in all. His Spirit will lead us and Word will guide us. Our faith and confidence is in God alone.
I’m sorry for extending this post, but I must exhort my brothers and sisters at KCC to obeying God’s word and pray. With that said, the words to this song,” How He Loves” by David Cowder are awesome.
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realise just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all
Yeah, He loves us,
Oh! how He loves us
MB:
Simply an outstanding comment at August 28, 2010 at 1:12 pm.
–pk
MB – no apology needed on the extended post. You have effectively and accurately expressed what a good many of us lived with while in the confines of PDI/SGM.
I can’t remember if I had commented before on “Seek First” but I will re-comment anyway — Jesus said to Seek first the kingdom of God and HIS righteousness. Too many of the church leaders are teaching and living “Seek first the church and our righteousness”. Think about that!
When we seek first the church it is all about us no matter how many times we sing “It’s all about You”. The focus is not that we have been made righteous but eradicating sin so we can produce our own righteousness (impossible of course). I could go on for days on this one. When the focus is us we produce the things of the flesh not the things of the Spirit.
Then it is all the things MB stated.
One last statement — Seeking first the church produces in pastors and leaders; “it is about them and THEIR ministry not equipping the saints for the work of the ministry”.
Enough said – but great post MB!!
MB,
I read your post with both great soberness (seeing myself in your confessions) and great excitement for how the Lord is using your clear, articulate voice to speak to one and all. In other words, your post rocks! Please feel our love & appreciation.
P.D.
“If there is one doctrine I have preached more than another, it is the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints even to the end.”
Charles H. Spurgeon
The Truth
Sweet sounding is thy Savior’s name
When uttered by His saints
Call upon thy holy flame
To loosen all constraints
The more the light is brought to bear
Deception it shall exposed
Dissension is only satan’s snare
For the truth must be disclosed
For all things now to fall in place
The truth must freely come
Until it comes we’re left to chase
Just beatings of a drum
Pray my friends for only truth
And truth come but complete
Remember not the folly of youth
For truth will taste so sweet
Lord, ready your saints at Kingsway! Help them to persevere as they are called to do and do so on their knees. God is at work and He will have His way. Lord let the light come and dispel all darkness. Amen!
Anita said-
If I had not REPEATEDLY experienced for myself the hypocrisy, ineptitude and unrighteous judgment of these so called “leaders” (I was coerced and manipulated by leadership into staying in a completely abusive and tormenting marriage way back in 1987 at “Metro Life” when I had FULL biblical rights to divorce –
I just like to say Anita, I am very sorry that you were coerced and manipulated to stay in an abusive marriage. I think if a church was healthy and the leaders wise and discerning ,they would not have given you that outrageous advice. It’s just so stupid that a leader would tell you that. That really ticks me off!! Unfortunately I know of other cases as well where this has happened in SGM and KCC. I often wonder is that the advice they would give to their daughters or grandaughters? Where’s these leaders discernment. Where is true care for women in these situations?
I am glad to hear you are in a loving marriage now!!! I pray your realationship with your children will be restored as well!!
Anita,
Forgive me for not welcoming you back and thanking you for your post. Your story is heart-wrenching. What I so fear about many in SGM leadership is it seems they are given guidelines/rules to follow, but are seemingly never trained or trusted to yield to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Your situation seems to be proof of this.
I, too, am overjoyed to hear of your current marriage, and will join MOVING ON as well as the others here in prayer that your relationship with your children is restored.
In Him,
P.D.
MB – thank you so much for your honesty humility and transparency.
Couldn’t be more clear about the damage of lies than that.
Sobering. Oh I dread and fear at the idea of losing the fear of the Lord!
God bless you brother. Thank you for your effort and care in explaining so clearly.
A Christian is able to persevere to the end because he knows the truth. He is saved by Jesus Christ alone, therefore his appointment with heavencannot be taken from him. The truth is what helps him to persevere. Let the truth always be held so dear!
Thank you to everyone for your kind responses and your prayers. I will keep you updated if/when anything changes.
Anita
Hi Anita. Just wanted to hop on and say welcome.
Stunned
Hi Anita.
I don’t know if this will be of any comfort to you, but my horribly manipulative ex has done such a good job on my poor kids that it took my daughter about a year and a half to start talking to me again after he began his work, and my dear son still isn’t talking to me. I, too, gave up EVERYTHING for my children and husband, so I get it. But you’re a better mom than me. At times when I was struggling so badly to support myself, and when I didn’t have even one of my children talking to me, I admit, I had moments of wondering if I made a mistake. But now, with a different perspective, I wouldn’t trade one moment with my kids. Welcome here, Sister. And so glad to hear you’ve found a good marriage. Whoop-whoop!
Stunned
Stunned. You’re awesome.
This is a week overdue.
Silent Running — thank you. I suppose I know you?
Irv. PK. PD. Defended. Stunned. Defender Waters. Bruised. Canary and others, thank you for posting regularly. When I first discovered this blog last fall I was tempted to write it off as a bunch of gossiping, bitter, divisive loons, airing dirty laundry. Sorry!!! However, not only do I understand that people are in different places, but that there are good reasons for expressing their thoughts and feelings. I hate to see this blog discredited and am very glad to see how your hearts for Christ’s body come through.
Anita — I remember you and your ex-husband. I believe you probably remember Penny and I although we were in different circles. I am very sorry to hear of your journey. I can’t imagine the difficulty. Yet God continually makes new and I join you in singing, free at last, thank God Almighty I’m free at last.
The Poet — I want to say a special thanks to you. Besides sharing our fellowship together we share a strong confidence that God will fight for his glory and that we participate in this primarily on our knees. Thank you for your great faith; you are a gift to our church.
Precious brothers and sisters, being human, I can tell some will struggle with Eph 4:31 in getting rid of bitterness as they journey. Some anger at Kingsway is fueled by bitterness, not that some of this anger isn’t righteous. My anger is so bad my little one has picked it up, the habit.
By the way, for those far away, PeaceMakers Ministries help has been requested by Kingsway leadership. Some form of humility has to be present to even say this out loud. I pray “their” eyes are opened and the Holy Spirit convicts. I pray this for all of us.
Dude,
This is interesting news. We know some very good folks at Peacemaker Min., so I have hope. However, seeing things like Josh Harris as a keynote speaker at the next PM conference does give us pause…to wonder. The Knight and I will be praying for an outcome that brings out the truth, and glorifies God.
I do have a question (for any reader here). Does anyone know what exactly happens when PM are called in to arbitrate/mediate a dispute among church members and/or leaders? Does the PM representative meet with everyone involved individually first (gathering info) and then meet with parties jointly? If there are several parties, does it become a subway-train of meetings? I’m really curious; I’ve never walked through such a process with PM before. Please, anyone? Anyone? If you don’t feel like posting here, drop either of us an email: protestantdame or protestantknight at gmail-dot-com.
Thanks,
P.D.
Color me skeptical. Why wasn’t Peacemakers called in with MLC when there was such an uproar and obvious injustice on the way the leaders and adult leaders’ sons were treated?
Who is it who needs peacemaking? Aren’t the layleaders of KCC being forthright, humble and SCRIPTURAL in the way they are handling the concerns? Is the treatment of them by the paid staff equally honest and full of integrity and care? Isn’t the love and care shown to SW and the leadership completely clear and honorable? Is someone involved with this situation NOT being transparent? Or is it that SW has a literally valid case that could be litigated and a certain landlord organization (if you will) is afraid of being exposed?
I’m just wonderin’….
Ut oh. Red Alert.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=355
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....1#comments
I have had heard of at least one instance where Peacemakers were called in at CLC (SGM’s “flagship” church). This was over the church cancelling a janitorial service contract since the church member questioned the group’s move towards Calvinism. What I heard was that CLC chose to not follow Peacemaker’s recommendation on restoring the contract.
Thus even if Peacemakers shows up, SGM Leaders have the upper hand and can still choose not to follow the recommendations. Apparently CLC’s not following Peacemaker recommendations hasn’t affected their relationship with the Peacemaker Organization. Various SGM Leaders still speak at their conferences etc.
It will be interesting to see what impact Peacemakers has with this conflict with it someone saying they are coming in to resolve it. If Peacmakers makes certain recommendations will Kingsway leaders including Gene Emerson refuse to follow them? Time will tell.
Also, talking about Peacemakers, it was the pastor of an SGM Church who refused to use the Peacemaker process with Jim who founded this blog. The pastor refused involvement of a practice that SGM supposedly endorses.
Where are some of the other higher up leaders in SGM including other members of their “apostolic team” including Mahaney? Shouldn’t they be getting involved? What do they have to say about one of their regional leaders withholding the truth for 10 years and that he is still in place as a leader?
Isn’t one point obvious? A leader withheld the truth for 10 years. With that coming out, isn’t it obvious that Gene Emerson needs to step down at least for a season? Do they really need Peacemakers to state the obvious?
Does Gene Emerson on his own not see that he is disqualified from being a leader? I wonder what Emerson would do if it came out that a pastor in the region he leads did what he himself did? Wouldn’t Emerson require that pastor to step down?
Steve,
All good questions. As I understand it, the leadership at KW have initiated this, and I’m also curious to know what they (the leaders) see as the problem that needs resolution. Perhaps getting PM involved is a new mandate/suggestion from higher up in SGM, or an attempt to bring in an “unbiased” mediator into the equation. I’m waiting for any folks at KW to weigh in with their views on this. At least they appear to be “trying to act right” as the Knight would say.
P.D.
PD
There certainly can be an argument for bringing in an “unbiased” mediator especially with the close relationship Gene Emerson has with the other high ranking leaders within SGM. Hopefully Peacemakers, if they are brought in, will show themselves to be truly “unbiased.”
The inevitable is being prolonged here, once again to the detriment of the sheep and the church as a whole.
In my experience with church (since birth; 22 years of that being SGM) and based upon my unscientific observations over the years, here’s what I believe kills a church:
Being ripped apart by a situation where a leader refuses to leave, even when sin is pointed out to him or concerns derived from scripture are shown to him very plainly. He will go hither and yon, from Dan to Beersheba, seeking support from the denomination, a third party, mediator, etc. when the very simple step of one or more of the leaders leaving and giving the church back to (drum roll) the church (crash) would be far simpler. Less lives are trashed, less chest-pounding is involved, less hurtful situations are created, less sin, period.
This is a very hard thing that leaders and some sheep don’t want to hear, but it has to be said: God does not necessarily call church leaders to lifetime terms. Yes, those leaders need to give up their lives for their churches, but that in turn gives you no guarantee you are to be the undisputed, uninterrupted, untouched leader of church X until your body goes into the ground. And if some look at the harshness of that as why become a leader?, it then becomes questionable as to whether or not your goals of personal gain and longevity make you qualified to be called a leader to start with. God calls men for the right time, right place, on His terms and His timetable. End of story.
No guarantees of lifetime leadership longevity. That goes for leaders period, not necessarily just those in the church. God elevates and tears down. Sometimes He doesn’t do it with lightning bolts and plagues. Sometimes he does it with a vote of no confidence (or many derivations thereof) from flock members, or by exposing a decade(s)-long running sin.
The belief in God’s sovereignty does not mean you get to dictate how that sovereignty brings you down one day.
I appreciate what ministries like PeaceMakers do, believe me I do. But I am concerned with it turning into a long and protracted process that will tear down more than it could hope to restore. There are times when slipshod actions in leadership simply call for the decent thing to do: humbly step down, and go with God.
–pk
PK
Very well said. In other words an excellent comment.
Hopefully the leaders of Kingsway will heed what you are talking about. Sadly it wouldn’t surprise me if the Kingsway leaders are bringing in Peacemakers to try and justify themselves as you indicate sometimes leaders do. Hopefully both the leaders of Kingsway and Peacemakers will do the right thing and not whitewash what happened.
As you point out it is sad when people who found ministries based on God’s calling get to the point where they think it is their ministry vs. being God’s . When they do this many times there comes a point when a leader needs to step down for the good of the organization.
It will be sad if Kingsway’s Leaders through their actions or inactions tear Kingsway apart.
It still baffles me how this isn’t a black and white decision with Gene Emerson needing to step down at least for some time period that would include evaluation. How can a group justify keeping someone in the leadership position he is in after what he did. What a sad lack of integrity for Emerson, Kingsway and SGM.
Thanks again for quite an inciteful comment.
Steve240:
I think everyone, especially SGM leadership, needs to read the last paragraph in your September 4, 2010 at 11:51 am comment, then reread it, and read it again.
–pk
Ellie, you blog queen, thanks for the links. Jim’s comment at Survivor’s said it all:
“The point is moot. Sande (President of peacemakers) said that he couldn’t be objective in the matter.
Case closed.” Jim
I’m not sure if Sandes is speaking of Noel’s story or the whole SGM business. Would there be any difference in the case of Kingsway? Can anyone at Peacemakers deal with SGM objectively? I also like how Kris’ letter pointed out that all the info they need is on the blog for public record.
I just have to say what is once again in my heart: Lord Jesus, set your people free!
Although I have been out of Kingsway for years, I do know Gene Emerson. I have experienced his arrogance and control!!!!! He is a career minister, and he will not go away easily. I fully understand that he can totally be restored and all of that. But I do NOT think he can or should ever be in “church” leadership again. Once a man crosses that line, he can be totally restored, forgiven, and on his way to the promised land, BUT NOT lead others in the capacity that he does now. Christian yes, leader no. I am an old man now and have seen way too much crap done by leaders who make a career out of this thing we call “church.”
Dear KingsWay and Dear Peacemakers,
Please refer to the open letter Kris wrote to Ken Sande and Peacemakers
on the sgmsurvivors blog, dated January 12, 2009.
Please note Kris’ question, which is foundational to your pursuant of truth:
“HAVE THEY (sgm), AS AN ORGANIZATION, FOSTERED A CULTURE OF
SECRECY, WHERE DECISIONS ARE MADE FROM THE TOP DOWN AND THEN
IMPOSED UPON THE PEOPLE IN THE PEWS, OFTEN WITH LITTLE CLEAR
EXPLANATION TO THESE PEOPLE ABOUT THE CHANGES IMPOSED UPON
THEM? ”
KingsWay,
Do you consider yourselves in the midst of a conflict, and your main objective coming to peace in this situation?? Or is there much more at stake??
Has the Lord seen fit to uncover and address issues of LIES, DECEIT,STEALING AWAY, (of SW’s integrity of his Christian walk) by a PASTOR???????
Is He uncovering other issues that have resulted in wounding and/or destruction
by a PASTOR??????
Our hearts must not give into retribution or bitterness. AND, we are, at the same time, ALLOWED to be angry at sin (God gave us this ability — it propels us to fight against injustice, whilst maintaining forgiveness) . Be careful to distinguish between bitterness and alarm.
What is our part in sounding the alarm and not allowing anyone to NEUTRALIZE
the situation?? We love our Brethren, and love and are in awe of the Holiness of God. This is my/my familys motivation in crying out for Truth and Light –
The “Family of Churches”, known as Sovereign Grace, is guilty of documented
maulings and abuses— CJ knows about it all. Have they cried out in
sorrowful repentance of the authority structure they have created and maintained? No. There is duplicity. Good mixed with evil doings. Duplicity.
SGM,in the proceedings at KingsWay, may the Lord Almighty meet you as He did with Saul of Tarsus “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?.. I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” (Acts 9:4-5) sgm,sgm pastors and ‘overseers’ (formerly known
as ‘apostles’)….when you wound Christians, you are wounding Jesus the Christ.
Peacemakers, Please read “My Story of Hope” by “Esther” of the Chesapkeake story. (on SGMRefuge). Documented, written cries for help and the many required sgm avenues of seeking pastoral and apostolic help were discarded. Why? The continued sgm polity of authoritarian, controling structure. Please dig REAL
deep into the past cases of wounded people at KingsWay caused by undiscerning
pastors. Undiscerning pastors are a consequence of the polity mandates of sgm.
Help us, O Lord our God.
So Peacemakers is being brought in because SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene.
First of all, why all the flowery Kings James phraseology? Second, is this a sin that is to be brought before the church? Third ,was SW even asked if he “had ought” against Gene?
First answer. Just like the phrase used ten years ago against SW (“the sin of unbelief”) this phrase is being pulled out of context.
Mark 11:25 “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” (The KJV uses the term “having ought” where the official KingsWay translation, the ESV, says “have anything against anyone”.
The context here is a person is praying. He has something against someone, so he should go to that person and forgive him. Thank you. End of story. It is a thing between the person, God and the other person. And we witnessed that forgiveness on August 15 at the family meeting. Anything more would be judging SW’s heart and is wrong. Who is gossiping now?
The short answer to question one: using that phrase from the KJV sounds more holy and gives the accusation more spiritual weight than just saying that SW has something against Gene.
Is this a sin that should be brought before the church? The context doesn’t seem to say that, but even if it were something of that magnitude, biblical procedure was not followed. It was an accusation…maybe even just an opinion… by a few of the CG leaders that was blown out of proportion and used to get PM involved. The leaders did not go to SW and ask, “Hey, bro. Do you have ought against, Gene?” Because he would have answered, “No.” End of story again. The answer to question three is simply no.
So the leadership is deflecting the eyes off of them and their controlling, heavy handed techniques and using those very techniques to try to point out some supposed, drummed up sin of SW. Just like they did ten years ago.
KingsWay friends, don’t be fooled….again.
Welcome Looking Elsewhere and thanks for your comments. So you believe the calling in of PM is just a smokescreen/deflection tactic? Hmmm. Also I understand D Harvey is in town.
We’ll all continue to pray as the KW story unfolds here….
P.D.
“So Peacemakers is being brought in because SW is being accused of “having ought” against Gene.”
.
After what GE and KW leadership did, they have the audacity for something like this?? Incredible.
Spin Control.
That’s what it is.
SGM is acting less and less like the Church, and more like a corporation or Political machine these days.
It’s time for God to do a top-down gutting of this political machine.
Doe anyone know if the Kingsway building is payed for? Though I am one that believes it is good to not have debt one thing that having debt does in the case of a church is it makes the leaders more dependent on having members. Put one way, a mass exodus wouldn’t be nearly so hard on Kingsway if their church building is already paid for.
If the building isn’t paid for, the church leaders have more of a need for keeping regular members. If the building is paid for, losing a number of members wouldn’t nearly be as hard on Kingsway.
It’s no secret that I have had much to say about the fast moving events at KingsWay. I would like to add to those statements but this time I want to avoid any attempts at persuasion. I wanted to do that as a matter of sensitivity to those that disagree with me about the path that has been taken by the leadership at KW and SGM. What I want to do instead is present some evidence. I want to tell you about some recent events and allow you to form your own conclusions.
I’ve debated whether I would post these events at all and finally decided to do so after spending many sleepless hours over the past week out of bed, praying for all of us within SGM and especially those remaining at KingsWay. I don’t recall ever having been awakened with such a burden; I simply am struggling to sleep during this time. My heart breaks for the people of KingsWay and more widely for those that are likely experiencing the same elsewhere.
Some will say that the actions of 3:00 AM prayers do not warrant my posting this but I disagree. This is only done so that you will be well informed as you move forward. I ache for the unity of KingsWay but not if that unity includes sacrificing all truth. This posting will not, as I mentioned above, be about my views. I will try to limit those and hopefully exclude them completely. I will present this information in more of an outline format so that I might hold more closely to my goal. The presentation of this is by design straight forward and lacking any glamour but I only want to relay what I consider to be events which will give you greater insight into just what it is you may or may not be unifying yourself under.
On Wednesday, September 1, 2010, a friend and I met with Gene, Aaron, and Keith. The purpose(s) of our meeting was simple:
1. My confession and request for forgiveness
a. I presented myself to Gene, admitting my fault of not having presented my concerns and accusations to him directly and instead informing any who would visit this site about what I believe are actions on his part which disqualified him from leadership.
b. I acknowledged that it did not change my views.
c. Gene did give forgiveness but it was not until sometime later in the meeting after Aaron purposefully brought our conversation back to the fact that my request for forgiveness had not been responded to by Gene.
d. Following Gene’s granting of forgiveness, he quickly transitioned into a warning that this did not give me the right to “slander” him by further “airing negative statements” about him to others. This prompted a discussion that intermittently led to a final definition of “slander” along with the warning that I would be accused of that sin if I did what I am doing now.
i. Gene’s definition of “slander” – “any statement, factual or not, made about another without that individual being present to defend themselves”
ii. My definition of “slander” – “any false statement made about another that would serve to demean their character or otherwise tear them down.”
iii. We did not search out a dictionary definition.
2. To address what appears to be a habitual practice of secrecy by the elders
a. The elders, collectively, promoted what they consider to be a practice of transparency.
i. They refer to their willingness to meet with any individual(s) who have concerns.
ii. They state that they have told the entire story of SW to the church.
iii. They insist that they revealed all of the charges that have been laid against them during the family meeting.
iv. Keith and Gene state that they have been completely open about what occurred at Chesapeake.
1. This arose out of concerns that KW has never been told about Keith’s involvement with a “controversial situation” which happened at Chesapeake while he was on staff, even though KW is slated to send Keith out as church planter.
b. We asked them how the apparent attempts to control the last family meeting fit into a practice of transparency.
i. There was no direct attempt on their part to explain what strongly appeared to be an attempt to control the flow of the meeting.
ii. They admit that multiple meetings between the elders and some with the elders and SW, BD, BM took place prior to the family meeting to work out how the meeting would operate and even the words that would be used as statements were given and questions were answered.
3. We questioned the lack of adherence to Matthew 18, church discipline
a. A list of charges has been presented to the elders, not by me, although I support them. The charges were presented by BD, BM, and SW.
i. Again, the elders believe that they have informed the c