Comments on: We-are-fam-a-lee… http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/ a safe haven Tue, 22 May 2012 14:02:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Charlie http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23286 Charlie Mon, 25 Oct 2010 03:22:21 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23286 I know polity is important.  Maybe we wouldn't be in this mess....but again I say...The leaders of Daytona and Metro Churches and those over them, should be ashamed of themselves for letting the deception get this far out of hand.  This is terrible and lives are still being ruined in the church, because of the church.   Sovereign Grace Ministries play church. I know polity is important.  Maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess….but again I say…The leaders of Daytona and Metro Churches and those over them, should be ashamed of themselves for letting the deception get this far out of hand.  This is terrible and lives are still being ruined in the church, because of the church.
 
Sovereign Grace Ministries play church.

]]> By: RT http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23284 RT Mon, 25 Oct 2010 03:13:52 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23284 SGM = paid pastors sent to congregations by a central office in MD.  There are no elected leaders.  Those paid pastors run the church.  No voting by church on calling pastors or anyone else. No Book of Church Order used for polity.  Head in MD, regional non-elected appointed apostle gives directions and discipline, local priests = episcopal model. Presbyterian form of government = ruling and teaching elders elected by congregation.  One vote per man.  Book of Church Order.  Local presbyteries, whose members have been elected to their positions by their congregations, oversee their own churches = prebyterian polity.  Presbyterian system.  Problems therein?  Sure, we are all sinners. SGM = paid pastors sent to congregations by a central office in MD.  There are no elected leaders.  Those paid pastors run the church.  No voting by church on calling pastors or anyone else. No Book of Church Order used for polity.  Head in MD, regional non-elected appointed apostle gives directions and discipline, local priests = episcopal model.

Presbyterian form of government = ruling and teaching elders elected by congregation.  One vote per man.  Book of Church Order.  Local presbyteries, whose members have been elected to their positions by their congregations, oversee their own churches = prebyterian polity.  Presbyterian system.  Problems therein?  Sure, we are all sinners.

]]> By: Protestant Knight http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23249 Protestant Knight Sun, 24 Oct 2010 05:35:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23249 <p>Beloved: I think it needs to be pointed out--as diplomatic as possible--that when two churches share similar bad practices (or any behavior that bucks both the heart of their polity statement or frays the cords of essential Christian doctrines that span across the denoms) this does not mean their polity is in <em>sync</em> with each other, and that polity monikers can be mixed and matched. There is also a tail-chasing aspect to all of this as well.  This involves picking and choosing aspects of a polity--"Presbyterian" for example--like a salad bar and then stamping that name on it.  It may be a particular <em>brand</em> of that polity, but is it really the <em>entirety</em> of that polity statement? My whole point in even beginning to address the polity issue on this blog was to explore the fact that SGM was making grand claims about the biblical stamp of approval on their practices when in fact many could be called into question.  Whatever the polity is, if a man's practices (ultimately governed by his heart) are directing you to worship him instead of God, there's a problem. I sought to show that <em>some</em> polity structures--while flawed like everything else in our fallen world--appear to be able to handle wolves better than others. Please understand...this is not an opportunity for any of us to pound our chests and decry ours the superior one.  Discussion and even debate is fine; where I took issue was SGM's declaration--via Dave Harvey--that Episcoalian and Presbyterian were (1) appear to be closer to Scripture than anything else out there and (2) this was what SGM was/is/will be practicing. These declarations are a mixed bag, at best, and nowhere near conclusive. I hope I am making sense at this late hour. --pk</p> Beloved:

I think it needs to be pointed out–as diplomatic as possible–that when two churches share similar bad practices (or any behavior that bucks both the heart of their polity statement or frays the cords of essential Christian doctrines that span across the denoms) this does not mean their polity is in sync with each other, and that polity monikers can be mixed and matched.

There is also a tail-chasing aspect to all of this as well.  This involves picking and choosing aspects of a polity–”Presbyterian” for example–like a salad bar and then stamping that name on it.  It may be a particular brand of that polity, but is it really the entirety of that polity statement?

My whole point in even beginning to address the polity issue on this blog was to explore the fact that SGM was making grand claims about the biblical stamp of approval on their practices when in fact many could be called into question.  Whatever the polity is, if a man’s practices (ultimately governed by his heart) are directing you to worship him instead of God, there’s a problem.

I sought to show that some polity structures–while flawed like everything else in our fallen world–appear to be able to handle wolves better than others.

Please understand…this is not an opportunity for any of us to pound our chests and decry ours the superior one.  Discussion and even debate is fine; where I took issue was SGM’s declaration–via Dave Harvey–that Episcoalian and Presbyterian were (1) appear to be closer to Scripture than anything else out there and (2) this was what SGM was/is/will be practicing.

These declarations are a mixed bag, at best, and nowhere near conclusive.

I hope I am making sense at this late hour.

–pk

]]> By: Robert Hutchinson http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23246 Robert Hutchinson Sun, 24 Oct 2010 04:34:08 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23246 Stunned, Thank you for your thoughtful response.  I am referring to experiences I and people I know had in the PCA. While the PCA and OPC have their own cults of personality, those denominations do differ from SGM in that they are larger and more widely dispersed, mitigating the damage done by any single dominant person.  This does account for the ability of churches to exist that you describe, ones that are functioning and healthy. The the biggest difference between the PCA and SGM may be that several dominant personalities can wreck a congregation or even a presbytery in the PCA but SGM is small enough that the small group around Mahaney has the ability to wreck the denomination. But much of the polity problems people have with SGM can be seen in PCA polity.  I was taught in the PCA that the process in Matthew 18 was that was to take to one or two others to the offending brother and if he did not listen to you to take him to the elders. But Scripture actually says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church” [Matt 5.18]. Fundamentally the PCA confounds the elders and the session with the church. This teaching is reflected in the PCA BCO (Book of Church Order), Section 12.5a which states the session has the power “[t]o inquire into the knowledge, principles and Christian conduct of the church members under its care; to censure those found delinquent...” The weighty responsibility to care for the souls of straying believers is stripped from the congregation and placed in the hands of a small group over the church. Once this substitution of the session for the church is accepted in one's mind, one comes to accept all sorts of powers as the prerogative of the session. On the matter of the church budget the PCA BCO does state the session has the power “to approve and adopt the budget” (Section 12.5b). Some on this blog have commented that the pastor board of an SGM congregation has the power to sell the church building and move the congregation meetings to a rented school. This same power is granted to a PCA session, for it has the power “[t]o approve actions of special importance affecting church property” (BCO Section 12.5c) Some here have commented that an SGM pastor can be removed from office without explanation to the congregation. A friend of mine actually saw this happen in a PCA congregation. As for the comment for an RE having to pass muster with the session, my experience is that the session can act as a permanent nominating committee—nominating committees run by the pre-existing group in charge create the opportunity for abuse and the perpetuation of those in charge. Reference: The PCA Book of Church Order http://www.pcaac.org/BCO%202010%20Reprint%20All.pdf   RH     Stunned,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.  I am referring to experiences I and people I know had in the PCA.
While the PCA and OPC have their own cults of personality, those denominations do differ from SGM in that they are larger and more widely dispersed, mitigating the damage done by any single dominant person.  This does account for the ability of churches to exist that you describe, ones that are functioning and healthy. The the biggest difference between the PCA and SGM may be that several dominant personalities can wreck a congregation or even a presbytery in the PCA but SGM is small enough that the small group around Mahaney has the ability to wreck the denomination.
But much of the polity problems people have with SGM can be seen in PCA polity.  I was taught in the PCA that the process in Matthew 18 was that was to take to one or two others to the offending brother and if he did not listen to you to take him to the elders. But Scripture actually says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church” [Matt 5.18]. Fundamentally the PCA confounds the elders and the session with the church.
This teaching is reflected in the PCA BCO (Book of Church Order), Section 12.5a which states the session has the power “[t]o inquire into the knowledge, principles and Christian conduct of the church members under its care; to censure those found delinquent…” The weighty responsibility to care for the souls of straying believers is stripped from the congregation and placed in the hands of a small group over the church.
Once this substitution of the session for the church is accepted in one’s mind, one comes to accept all sorts of powers as the prerogative of the session. On the matter of the church budget the PCA BCO does state the session has the power “to approve and adopt the budget” (Section 12.5b).
Some on this blog have commented that the pastor board of an SGM congregation has the power to sell the church building and move the congregation meetings to a rented school. This same power is granted to a PCA session, for it has the power “[t]o approve actions of special importance affecting church property” (BCO Section 12.5c)
Some here have commented that an SGM pastor can be removed from office without explanation to the congregation. A friend of mine actually saw this happen in a PCA congregation.
As for the comment for an RE having to pass muster with the session, my experience is that the session can act as a permanent nominating committee—nominating committees run by the pre-existing group in charge create the opportunity for abuse and the perpetuation of those in charge.

Reference: The PCA Book of Church Order

http://www.pcaac.org/BCO%20201.....%20All.pdf
 
RH
 

 

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23211 Stunned Sat, 23 Oct 2010 07:57:58 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23211 Robert, May I ask whether your experience was in a PCA or USA or the third one which I now forget its name?  I grew up presby, am presby once again now and have my presby brother-in-law who has been a pastor for 30 years now.  A few of the things you have said are so far from any of the things I have ever observed and experienced myself that it makes me wonder if we were in different presby denominations, that's why I asked the above question. For example, I have never once heard of a teaching elder in any of my presby experiences. You said, "(I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.)"  i have personally seen this vote happen many times.  I have also seen people vote against the budget when they have disagreed with something in the budget.  And then go to the pastor both before and after to discuss the things that they disagreed with.  You also said, "Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a  plurality of elders/pastors."  I certainly don't want to diminish your experience by saying it is different from mine.  If any experience is true, one is not more valid than the other.  So please understand that this question is not meant as a dismissal of your thoughts but a desire for clarification.  Would you please let me know what you mean by an exalted role for church officers?  Again, though I have always been heavily involved in my presby churches, I could barely tell you who the elders were/are.  So I have never seen any exaltation of roles, nor any domination taking place.  Heck, as a teen ager I was asked to be on the nominating committee for the deacons and I seemed to have as much sway as the elderly woman that was my partner.  (Hmmm, don't know if that was the wisest move but it was wonderful to be in a church where they wanted to give everyone equal voice.)  That is why your comment, "Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy”" was so perplexing to me.  Actually, now that I think about it, another presby church I know just voted to break away from the presby denomination they have been a part of for a looooong time.  They made the decision as a democratic vote.  There was much debate, both formally and among the town's people for months.  The pastor held back many of his views, because he did not want to be accused of unduly influencing anyone's decisions.  After many months of deliberation, prayer, debate, and discussion, the vote was made.  There was no land slide.  It was a close vote, which says to me that people used their vote to voice their opinions/convictions.  The denomination they are breaking away from also had their long democratic process as does the other denomination they are becoming a part of.  I was glad to see it held with some due process involved and much voting and discussion. You also said, "In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice  no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery."  Would you mind sharing "without first passing muster with the session" refers to?  Like I said, I was on nominating committees and the person I nominated was chosen without any problem.  (Not saying your experience is invalidated by mine.)  The more you share it seems that you had a really horrible experience but it doesn't sound like any presby church I have yet to experience.  (Thank heavens.  It sounds awful what you've described.)  Not that I would want a session to ever vote in someone that they don't approve of.  What would be the point?  I want my elders and deacons and ministers passing muster.  For me, that's a good thing and part of the democratic process.   "Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections."  This is my experience, as well.  Though, I have seen it happen but it doesn't happen all that much.  Not that it has needed to happen all that much, though I can think of one situation where it needed to happen much sooner than it did.  Thanks for coming along and giving us stuff to think about. Stunned Robert,

May I ask whether your experience was in a PCA or USA or the third one which I now forget its name? 

I grew up presby, am presby once again now and have my presby brother-in-law who has been a pastor for 30 years now.  A few of the things you have said are so far from any of the things I have ever observed and experienced myself that it makes me wonder if we were in different presby denominations, that’s why I asked the above question.

For example, I have never once heard of a teaching elder in any of my presby experiences.

You said, “(I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.)”  i have personally seen this vote happen many times.  I have also seen people vote against the budget when they have disagreed with something in the budget.  And then go to the pastor both before and after to discuss the things that they disagreed with. 

You also said, “Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a  plurality of elders/pastors.”  I certainly don’t want to diminish your experience by saying it is different from mine.  If any experience is true, one is not more valid than the other.  So please understand that this question is not meant as a dismissal of your thoughts but a desire for clarification.  Would you please let me know what you mean by an exalted role for church officers?  Again, though I have always been heavily involved in my presby churches, I could barely tell you who the elders were/are.  So I have never seen any exaltation of roles, nor any domination taking place.  Heck, as a teen ager I was asked to be on the nominating committee for the deacons and I seemed to have as much sway as the elderly woman that was my partner.  (Hmmm, don’t know if that was the wisest move but it was wonderful to be in a church where they wanted to give everyone equal voice.) 

That is why your comment, “Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy”” was so perplexing to me.  Actually, now that I think about it, another presby church I know just voted to break away from the presby denomination they have been a part of for a looooong time.  They made the decision as a democratic vote.  There was much debate, both formally and among the town’s people for months.  The pastor held back many of his views, because he did not want to be accused of unduly influencing anyone’s decisions.  After many months of deliberation, prayer, debate, and discussion, the vote was made.  There was no land slide.  It was a close vote, which says to me that people used their vote to voice their opinions/convictions.  The denomination they are breaking away from also had their long democratic process as does the other denomination they are becoming a part of.  I was glad to see it held with some due process involved and much voting and discussion.

You also said, “In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice  no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery.”  Would you mind sharing “without first passing muster with the session” refers to?  Like I said, I was on nominating committees and the person I nominated was chosen without any problem.  (Not saying your experience is invalidated by mine.)  The more you share it seems that you had a really horrible experience but it doesn’t sound like any presby church I have yet to experience.  (Thank heavens.  It sounds awful what you’ve described.)  Not that I would want a session to ever vote in someone that they don’t approve of.  What would be the point?  I want my elders and deacons and ministers passing muster.  For me, that’s a good thing and part of the democratic process.  

“Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.”  This is my experience, as well.  Though, I have seen it happen but it doesn’t happen all that much.  Not that it has needed to happen all that much, though I can think of one situation where it needed to happen much sooner than it did. 

Thanks for coming along and giving us stuff to think about.

Stunned

]]> By: Robert Hutchinson http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23206 Robert Hutchinson Sat, 23 Oct 2010 04:23:01 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23206 Perhaps this should be reposted to the polity thread but I do believe the SGM pastor who compared his church's polity to Presbyterianism has a point.  Official SGM polity is different but the essence and practice have striking similarities.   Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a  plurality of elders/pastors. Both explicitly reject congregational "democracy" (I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church's budget.)   In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice  no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery.   Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections. The SGM pastor said he had system of rule by elders/pastors with congregational input sought out.  In practice this is what actual practice in presbyterian churches often looks like on good days.  On bad days this system has many of the same abuses mentioned here regarding SGM. Perhaps this should be reposted to the polity thread but I do believe the SGM pastor who compared his church’s polity to Presbyterianism has a point.  Official SGM polity is different but the essence and practice have striking similarities.
 
Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a  plurality of elders/pastors. Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy” (I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.)   In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice  no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery.   Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.

The SGM pastor said he had system of rule by elders/pastors with congregational input sought out.  In practice this is what actual practice in presbyterian churches often looks like on good days.  On bad days this system has many of the same abuses mentioned here regarding SGM.

]]> By: AnotherPresbyterian http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23121 AnotherPresbyterian Thu, 21 Oct 2010 12:37:28 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23121 Robert, as a presbyterian who commented on a polity thread here stating my belief that SGM's polity isn't presbyterian (no ruling elders, a hallmark of presbyterianism), I was saddened very much by the difficult things you vaguely referenced and the fact that you seem to believe you have no outlet, at least within your presbytery, to act on it.  I'm also sorry you know of presbyterians who don't understand the recourse they have as members of the body.  Just know that this is not so across the entire denomination, that there are congregations where the flock are cared for and presbyteries where the hurt are defended. In lieu of a refuge-type site, may I recommend <a href="http://theaquilareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=58" rel="nofollow">The Aquila Report</a>?  There is a submit stories and reports link there. Robert, as a presbyterian who commented on a polity thread here stating my belief that SGM’s polity isn’t presbyterian (no ruling elders, a hallmark of presbyterianism), I was saddened very much by the difficult things you vaguely referenced and the fact that you seem to believe you have no outlet, at least within your presbytery, to act on it.  I’m also sorry you know of presbyterians who don’t understand the recourse they have as members of the body.  Just know that this is not so across the entire denomination, that there are congregations where the flock are cared for and presbyteries where the hurt are defended.
In lieu of a refuge-type site, may I recommend The Aquila Report?  There is a submit stories and reports link there.

]]> By: Charlie http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23093 Charlie Thu, 21 Oct 2010 01:28:14 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23093 The X XXXXX  X SR Pastor of the Daytona Church should be ashamed of himself.  How long OH Lord...? The X XXXXX  X SR Pastor of the Daytona Church should be ashamed of himself.  How long OH Lord…?

]]> By: Charlie http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23039 Charlie Wed, 20 Oct 2010 01:36:27 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23039 Ex Fl Sgracer...were you in the Daytona Church.  There is much debockle going on there at the present time.  Both of the Dannies, and other pastorial oversight continue to put salt into the wounds of the saints...How many ways can these men communicate clearly, and biblically that they really don't care.  So far this church debockle has been neatly swept under the rug. Ex Fl Sgracer…were you in the Daytona Church.  There is much debockle going on there at the present time.  Both of the Dannies, and other pastorial oversight continue to put salt into the wounds of the saints…How many ways can these men communicate clearly, and biblically that they really don’t care.  So far this church debockle has been neatly swept under the rug.

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-23033 Stunned Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:03:49 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-23033 Dear Robert, I'm so sorry to hear you've seen so much pain and suffered so much pain. Stunned Dear Robert,

I’m so sorry to hear you’ve seen so much pain and suffered so much pain.

Stunned

]]> By: Robert Hutchinson http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22998 Robert Hutchinson Tue, 19 Oct 2010 01:33:32 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22998 From the comments I have read here, SGM does sound like it has a Presbyterian form of a government.  The Presbyterian model sounds very appealing until one sees it practiced where  the elders are re-affirmed without any discussion or debate year after year while the congregation slowly withers away while the only pastoral care given is to berate someone for considering leaving the "authority" of the session.  Appeal to the Presbytery sounds appealing until you read learn cases where pastoral abuse is never appealed to the Presbytery because the abused do not understand the lofty legal structure erected over the churches.   Those who do understand the legal superstructure figure out that it is a shell game where the dominant faction of presbytery will gets its way regardless of the damage done to the sheep in the folk.says. Occassionally some pastors will make it past the screening process of the Presbytery and be installed in churches where they can raise concerns about doctrinal error in the Presbytery.  But that small minority can be put up on charges of disrupting the "peace" of the church.  (All examples given here I witnessed in a presbytery of the PCA.)  SGM has apparently decided to perfect the Presbyterian form of church goverment, which is suspectible to dissidents thinking they have an actual voice, by dispensing with the inanity of elder elections and Presbytery votes orchestrated by the powers that be. I digress and  await the creation of pcarefuge.com. From the comments I have read here, SGM does sound like it has a Presbyterian form of a government.  The Presbyterian model sounds very appealing until one sees it practiced where  the elders are re-affirmed without any discussion or debate year after year while the congregation slowly withers away while the only pastoral care given is to berate someone for considering leaving the “authority” of the session.  Appeal to the Presbytery sounds appealing until you read learn cases where pastoral abuse is never appealed to the Presbytery because the abused do not understand the lofty legal structure erected over the churches.   Those who do understand the legal superstructure figure out that it is a shell game where the dominant faction of presbytery will gets its way regardless of the damage done to the sheep in the folk.says.

Occassionally some pastors will make it past the screening process of the Presbytery and be installed in churches where they can raise concerns about doctrinal error in the Presbytery.  But that small minority can be put up on charges of disrupting the “peace” of the church. 

(All examples given here I witnessed in a presbytery of the PCA.) 

SGM has apparently decided to perfect the Presbyterian form of church goverment, which is suspectible to dissidents thinking they have an actual voice, by dispensing with the inanity of elder elections and Presbytery votes orchestrated by the powers that be.

I digress and  await the creation of pcarefuge.com.

]]> By: Azaziah http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22979 Azaziah Mon, 18 Oct 2010 18:37:09 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22979 In Response to Ex-FL, T.T. is in maryland and doing well. Leading some worship and working and praying about direction, but loving life!! BD is recovering and is about to start a bible study called Aletheia here is the announcement: "I love the book of Romans!  It’s the greatest theological treatise ever written.  I’ve decided to start a Bible study fellowship called Aletheia (Greek: truth) for anyone interested in an informal, but in depth study of God’s word.  It begins Saturday, November 6 at our house from 6:30-8:00 pm. " MN's status i do not know. There was a family meeting on the 13th at MLC, Aron Osborne was being introduced as the new guy, but i am somewhat out of the loop since most of my closest friends have left!!!               Hope that helps somewhat.                                                                     In Response to Ex-FL, T.T. is in maryland and doing well. Leading some worship and working and praying about direction, but loving life!! BD is recovering and is about to start a bible study called Aletheia here is the announcement:
“I love the book of Romans!  It’s the greatest theological treatise ever written.  I’ve decided to start a Bible study fellowship called Aletheia (Greek: truth) for anyone interested in an informal, but in depth study of God’s word.  It begins Saturday, November 6 at our house from 6:30-8:00 pm. ”

MN’s status i do not know. There was a family meeting on the 13th at MLC, Aron Osborne was being introduced as the new guy, but i am somewhat out of the loop since most of my closest friends have left!!!              

Hope that helps somewhat.                                                                    

]]> By: Protestant Dame http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22974 Protestant Dame Mon, 18 Oct 2010 16:59:53 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22974 <p>Welcome, Ex-FL-SGMer.    Thanks for posting an email where others can contact you and hopefully fill you in on those questions you posed.  We haven't heard much out of MLC in awhile, so I'll let those in the know respond... P.D. <strong><em><span style="font-size: small;">  </span></em></strong></p> Welcome, Ex-FL-SGMer.    Thanks for posting an email where others can contact you and hopefully fill you in on those questions you posed.  We haven’t heard much out of MLC in awhile, so I’ll let those in the know respond…

P.D.
 

]]> By: Ex-FL-SGMer http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22955 Ex-FL-SGMer Mon, 18 Oct 2010 04:57:06 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22955 Hi I found this website a few days ago and have been trying as much as possible to absorb all that has been written. I have been free of my SGC for nearly 3 years. I was in my SGC in FL (not Metro, but hesitate to say which one just yet) for just short of 10 years when I made the decision to leave. MANY others have left since for varying reasons. I am a single. I will give my story on the Your Story 2 thread at some point. I've read through a lot of the stories you all have posted as well as a few other threads including Signs You've Become a Non-Thinking SG Drone over on Survivors! I couldn't believe how many of those things I [used to] relate to. My story of why I left SGM is nowhere near as horrible as what you all have been through though. Some of this stuff shocked me, though in retrospect it shouldn't. I feel like I wasted 10 years of my life in some ways. Again, I will post my story some time. Tonight I stumbled across this thread. Since I've been out of the loop for almost 3 years I am shocked to hear what is happening at MLC. I knew about what happened with JJ. Because I went to the "family meeting" my church had about it. But I didn't know that B.D. in the Charlotte church resigned, that M.N. was being forced out and that T.T. had left MLC. I would really love to know what happened. Also, I have reason to believe that the pastor of MY former SGC has either resigned or been asked to leave. Obviously no one in my former church has posted anything about this on facebook, only a former member. I basically only have contact to anyone who still goes to my former SGC church through facebook and the occasional accidental running into them at a store. Of course when I left they all promised me we would stay in contact, but we all know that is a joke. I feel like the Amish in which if they chose to leave to go to the "outside" world you are shunned! LOL Though I have been back twice since my departure (once for a wedding, once for a funeral) and was warmly greeted, anytime I've ever mentioned connecting in person with one of them, they will say yes, but never follow through. Anyway, if anyone could be so kind to fill me in with what happened with MN, TT, and BD that would be awesome. My email address (this is my secondary one, if emailed I will be glad to give my primary one once I know it's not someone from my SGC that still goes there ;) ) philippians4_6and7@yahoo.com Hi I found this website a few days ago and have been trying as much as possible to absorb all that has been written. I have been free of my SGC for nearly 3 years. I was in my SGC in FL (not Metro, but hesitate to say which one just yet) for just short of 10 years when I made the decision to leave. MANY others have left since for varying reasons. I am a single. I will give my story on the Your Story 2 thread at some point.
I’ve read through a lot of the stories you all have posted as well as a few other threads including Signs You’ve Become a Non-Thinking SG Drone over on Survivors! I couldn’t believe how many of those things I [used to] relate to. My story of why I left SGM is nowhere near as horrible as what you all have been through though. Some of this stuff shocked me, though in retrospect it shouldn’t. I feel like I wasted 10 years of my life in some ways. Again, I will post my story some time.
Tonight I stumbled across this thread. Since I’ve been out of the loop for almost 3 years I am shocked to hear what is happening at MLC. I knew about what happened with JJ. Because I went to the “family meeting” my church had about it. But I didn’t know that B.D. in the Charlotte church resigned, that M.N. was being forced out and that T.T. had left MLC. I would really love to know what happened.
Also, I have reason to believe that the pastor of MY former SGC has either resigned or been asked to leave. Obviously no one in my former church has posted anything about this on facebook, only a former member. I basically only have contact to anyone who still goes to my former SGC church through facebook and the occasional accidental running into them at a store. Of course when I left they all promised me we would stay in contact, but we all know that is a joke. I feel like the Amish in which if they chose to leave to go to the “outside” world you are shunned! LOL Though I have been back twice since my departure (once for a wedding, once for a funeral) and was warmly greeted, anytime I’ve ever mentioned connecting in person with one of them, they will say yes, but never follow through.
Anyway, if anyone could be so kind to fill me in with what happened with MN, TT, and BD that would be awesome. My email address (this is my secondary one, if emailed I will be glad to give my primary one once I know it’s not someone from my SGC that still goes there ;) )
philippians4_6and7@yahoo.com

]]> By: Famagusta http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22569 Famagusta Tue, 05 Oct 2010 21:32:15 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22569 In case this hasn't been stated explicitely yet: starting in January, Aron Osborne will not only "be added" to the leadership team, but also "assume regional responsibility for the southeast churches of SGM." I'd hope the best and brightest. No questions about Osborne. It's just so weird that this entire system of patronage is continued on and on and on, no matter what. If anything holds SGM together, it is the inofficial mentor-mentee system on the leadership level.  In case this hasn’t been stated explicitely yet: starting in January, Aron Osborne will not only “be added” to the leadership team, but also “assume regional responsibility for the southeast churches of SGM.”

I’d hope the best and brightest. No questions about Osborne. It’s just so weird that this entire system of patronage is continued on and on and on, no matter what.

If anything holds SGM together, it is the inofficial mentor-mentee system on the leadership level. 

]]> By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22097 Canary Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:53:05 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22097 Oh well said, Waters!  Well said.  Your words sober us all. Oh well said, Waters!  Well said.  Your words sober us all.

]]> By: Waters http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22079 Waters Mon, 20 Sep 2010 03:50:19 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22079 Vida,   On your post 9/17@ 7:31 am, you stated: "There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church.  This could be an answer to their prayer."  (in reference to Aron Osbornes new pastoral position there). Contemplating  this......... Sincerely, I'm asking....how will we or do we define a move of the Holy Spirit?? --I was saved and redeemed 35 years ago during the 'Charasmatic Movement'--at a small Methodist church on the west coast.  At that time everything about the Lord, the Bible, Christians,  was unchartered and new to me.  I wouldn't have known 'charasmatic'  from  'asthmatic'.  Soon, though, I experienced the powerful  Presence of the dunamis power of the Holy Spirit. Baptized in the Holy Spirit (please, not looking for a theological debate on this!)...speaking in tongues...praying for and seeing people and members of my family miraculously healed.  Seeing people delivered from demonic oppressions and deliverances. Experiencing Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge--------yes, for a period of about 10 years Holy Spirit revealed Himself in these ways.  {Then man, as usual, made a mess of it all etc etc...} Some years ago, I realized the Holy Spirit moves in powerfully different ways---often ways in which we would not expect...or even define as a "move of the Holy Spirit." My whole point is......I believe Holy Spirit IS IS IS moving ... could it be that He is cleansing...and exposing hidden deceit and sins in the church??? Early in the Book of Acts,  we read the story of Ananias and Sapphira. (recall Acts 5: 1-11).  Certainly, since this account is written in scripture,we may believe God is letting us know the serious evil of lies and deceit in the church. He Himself revealed the hidden deed to Peter...Peter addressed it ...and went straight to the core of the issue:  Acts 5:4b "Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?  You have lied not to men but to God."   and Acts 5: 5-- "And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it." ...During our "story" and also during the Chesapeake story, we experienced both heartbreak, sorrow,  shock.......AND the powerful powerful Presence of Holy Spirit.  We give Him glory for speaking His Voice above all others in the midst of the storm and in the midst of smokescreens,deceits, and duplicitous words from leadership. He shattered darkness over and over again.  He gave specific directions and instructions for us---above the voice of man/leadership. He provided for our needs. He intervened in our lives---awoke us---delivered us ---redeemed us--- and it was all done by leaning in and listening to Him....and believeing Him... At one point in the Chesapeake story, a prayer request was sent to 20 some members of the church--- to pray for and to go to the '3 Couples' --- to seek truth and pray for their church.  Most remained asleep. One leader charged the ones who requested prayer with "opening the door to slander and gossip"  (this person didnot know the battle had already been going on for 7 months!)....... I wonder-------- perhaps there are times Holy Spirit IS moving among us---but we are either asleep----don't recognize it------or think He moves in only certain ways. I believe Holy Spirit IS moving--- and presently, ONE of the ways is in cleansing the church.  Recalling the exhortations to the churches listed in the book of Revelations:      "He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches" I submit to you, that a Holy God is exposing the seriousness of the workings of deceit in SGM.  By His Spirit. Acts 5:4-- "WHY is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?  You have not lied to men but to God." Vida,
 
On your post 9/17@ 7:31 am, you stated: “There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church.  This could be an answer to their prayer.”  (in reference to Aron Osbornes new pastoral position there). Contemplating  this………

Sincerely, I’m asking….how will we or do we define a move of the Holy Spirit??

–I was saved and redeemed 35 years ago during the ‘Charasmatic Movement’–at a small Methodist church on the west coast.  At that time everything about the Lord, the Bible, Christians,  was unchartered and new to me.  I wouldn’t have known ‘charasmatic’  from  ‘asthmatic’.  Soon, though, I experienced the powerful  Presence of the dunamis power of the Holy Spirit. Baptized in the Holy Spirit (please, not looking for a theological debate on this!)…speaking in tongues…praying for and seeing people and members of my family miraculously healed.  Seeing people delivered from demonic oppressions and deliverances.
Experiencing Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge——–yes, for a period of about 10 years Holy Spirit revealed Himself in these ways.  {Then man, as usual, made a mess of it all etc etc…}
Some years ago, I realized the Holy Spirit moves in powerfully different ways—often ways in which we would not expect…or even define as a “move of the Holy Spirit.”

My whole point is……I believe Holy Spirit IS IS IS moving … could it be that He is cleansing…and exposing hidden deceit and sins in the church???
Early in the Book of Acts,  we read the story of Ananias and Sapphira.
(recall Acts 5: 1-11).  Certainly, since this account is written in scripture,we may believe God is letting us know the serious evil of lies and deceit in the church.
He Himself revealed the hidden deed to Peter…Peter addressed it …and went straight to the core of the issue:  Acts 5:4b “Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?  You have lied not to men but to God.”  
and Acts 5: 5– “And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.”

…During our “story” and also during the Chesapeake story, we experienced both heartbreak, sorrow,  shock…….AND
the powerful powerful Presence of Holy Spirit.  We give Him glory for speaking His Voice above all others in the midst of the storm and in the midst of smokescreens,deceits, and duplicitous words from leadership. He shattered darkness over and over again.  He gave specific directions and instructions for us—above the voice of man/leadership. He provided for our needs. He intervened in our lives—awoke us—delivered us —redeemed us— and it was all done by leaning in and listening to Him….and believeing Him…

At one point in the Chesapeake story, a prayer request was sent to 20 some members of the church— to pray for and to go to the ’3 Couples’ — to seek truth and pray for their church.  Most remained asleep. One leader charged the ones who requested prayer with “opening the door to slander and gossip”  (this person didnot know the battle had already been going on for 7 months!)…….
I wonder——– perhaps there are times Holy Spirit IS moving among us—but we are either asleep—-don’t recognize it——or think He moves in only certain ways.

I believe Holy Spirit IS moving— and presently, ONE of the ways is in cleansing the church.  Recalling the exhortations to the churches listed in the book of Revelations:

     “He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches”

I submit to you, that a Holy God is exposing the seriousness of the workings of deceit in SGM.  By His Spirit.

Acts 5:4– “WHY is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?  You have not lied to men but to God.”

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22021 Stunned Sat, 18 Sep 2010 03:29:55 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22021 Suzie, are you asking if I know Aron personally?  Yes, we were in the same church for many years, though if you asked him my name, he may have forgotten me by now.  Suzie, are you asking if I know Aron personally?  Yes, we were in the same church for many years, though if you asked him my name, he may have forgotten me by now. 

]]> By: Suzie Jenkins http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22016 Suzie Jenkins Sat, 18 Sep 2010 00:38:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22016 Stunned said; Vida, I’m trying to be polite, but you don’t really know what chances I have and have not given to Aron.  What does that mean? "chances" are you saying that you have talked to Aron personally? Stunned said;

Vida, I’m trying to be polite, but you don’t really know what chances I have and have not given to Aron. 

What does that mean? “chances” are you saying that you have talked to Aron personally?

]]> By: Protestant Knight http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/#comment-22003 Protestant Knight Fri, 17 Sep 2010 18:49:54 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=466#comment-22003 <p>Pilgrim: Great JE quote at <a href="http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/07/08/we-are-fam-a-lee/comment-page-9/#comment-21994" rel="nofollow"><span style="color: #b3960e;">September 17, 2010 at 8:33 am</span></a>. --pk</p> Pilgrim:

Great JE quote at September 17, 2010 at 8:33 am.

–pk

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