DB
Nausted is not a memebr of SGM, MLC or any leadership team.
Steve:
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I can answer that for you. Metro Life was about 125 people back in that day and James Barron was never a memebr or a part of that fellowship. Ruth, the woman who struggled with that lifestyle became “free” if you want to call it that, at Tree of Life. She was then “free”to engage in a relationship with Donna who was married to Bill. At Tree of Life they were “free by the grace of God” to have there relationship until Bill could not take it anymore, and they divorced. Dear friends of our were on the fence about leaving Metro and joined Tree of Life. They had a joint meeting with James and Danny . When Kathy asked the question I asked James above about confessing adultry to your spouse, Jame’s response was NO! It is covered by the blood. When we got together with John and Kathy afterwards that was the key that made them bail out of Tree of Life. James built his church by sheep stealing. We know because we were heavily courted by people in the Tree of Life movement. Bill, Donna and Ruth are far from the only horror story. Brian and Sheryl, Ken, Selmer and Ellen. The people that heard gressy grace and then came back to convince others to join them There was no evangelism at Tree. The methodology for church growth was devisive. James, you know a lot. That lawyer gene is strong. You look for those who have been beat up by legalism. I see this is now your new playground. It’s a small world James.
PS I left SGM in December of 2009 on sabatical and formally no longer a memberafter 22 years as of June 2010. I have posted many times here and I am no great lover of SGM in it’s present state, so please don’t tag me in that light. I advise you all to move with caution. Satan wispers just enough truth and then twists the end note.
Hi Canary,
Can you please remind us all again about the love of Christ being our motivation for what we say and do. It seems like some of us think that 1 Peter 4:17 states “For the time is come that judgmentalism must begin at the house of God.”
Judging doctrine is one thing, but judging hearts and motives is quite another. Galatians 5:15 warns, “If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” (NIV)
I wonder what the church would be like if we treated anger, unforgiveness, anxiousness,etc. on an equal footing as adultry, divorce, etc. as sin is sin —– guilt of one – guilty of all — I seem to remember that God hates sin — not just divorce!!
Thank God His wrath against our sin was satisfied at the cross. My problem is Christians keep nailing each other to the cross!!
Agelessdebutante:
You have really, really, really been misinformed as to the facts about situations in the personal lives of believers that happened about 20 years ago. Feel free to contact me personally, if you sincerely want to know the truth. I hope you find peace and joy again in the journey in your transition out of SGM. The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever. I pray that everyone who participates on this site will remember our Lord’s words: “Love one another, as I have loved you.” Blessings to you all, my brothers and sisters. It’s been great to talk to some of you by phone this week. Be encouraged. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the revelation of Jesus the Christ. Amen.
I was offline for a few days, and when I came back, wow, what a lot to wade through, and much of it wayyy out of the normal stream of this discussion.
Stunned — you are stunning. As soon as I read the post about divorce that you responded to, I was ready to jump right in. But then, I read a little farther and saw that you’d taken the words right off my page and made them far more eloquent.
Believe it or not, the person who set me free from being about judgmental about divorced people was RC Cola himself — Sproul — way back before SGM ever heard of him. We went through a Sunday school series in a PCA church, and he explained the dilemma pretty well. God hates divorce , yes, but he’s the one who provided it.
After years of seeing marriages in action, I finally came to understand that divorce is often just a public acknowledgment of something that has already happened in private. Sadly, many people I know are already privately “divorced”, but continue to cohabit due to their fear of judgmentalism from the people they love. How I love the church — but how sad that many times, we are the army that shoots its own wounded.
RT — you’re the bomb. You’ve got it going on, girl.
Next time lightning zaps my internet service, I’m gonna check in somewhere else. Too much to catch up on!
Our dear Irv, ah, not that I don’t feel like I haven’t already stirred enough things here today, but are you equating anger (an emotion) and anxiousness (usually a medical condition) with sin? It would seem like you just equated adultry with divorce. Hmm. Am I missing something or did you miss my post above? (Doing my best not to end this with “Boi”. But I know you don’t live in the hood so it probably wouldn’t have the same effect.)
PS. Like the “nailing each other to the cross” comment.
Jim:
After agelessdebutante made those serious allegations, I would ask that you would be fair to me and post the comment I sent to you for posting minutes ago. Thanks.
James
Dennis, love should definitely be our guide. Some people who come on here are still working through emotions they don’t quite understand. So, we have to be patient with each other. I’ve been thinking more about Stunned during this conversation than about doctrine. To me, she is more important. So I’m a little lost about this James Barron discussion. Better minds will have to figure that one out.
If you’re referring to an email, I didn’t receive it. Maybe you’re referring to a comment that was stuck in moderation.
Comments go into moderation at random-it’s not something I have set up. During the day, I’m stuck my computer (self employed) and clear as quick as I can. After hours is another matter.
Jim:
No problem. You posted it. Thanks much. It was my comment that posted at 9:47 pm. It must have been stuck in moderation. I just wanted agelessdebutante to know that she could call me directly if she wanted to know the facts. In her comment posted at 5:54 pm about me and other believers and Tree of Life Fellowship there was only one thing she stated that was true and that was that I was never a member of an SGM church. Every other single statement in that comment was untrue. Every single one. The problem with blogs is that anyone can say anything. Thanks for being fair, Jim.
I was merely trying to say the church qualifies sin into acceptable and unacceptable categories as far as how we treat one another. We destroy(nail them to the cross) the divorced and the ‘unwanted or unfortunate’ pregancy’ of a single woman but we accept and treat people with other sins much differently.
We are very good at destroying one another with our judgment of one another based on how we qualify or determine the weight of the sins of others. These are the sames sins past, present and future for which Christ gave His life on the cross. There are Christians that believe they are compromising God’s word if they love and care for someone who is divorced. Yet when they deal with others who are proud or arrogant or whatever they are so forgiving and gracious. Within SGM — if you pursue divorce then it is questionable whether you are saved and certainly you don’t understand the gospel or you would not divorce (regardless of the situation). Such manipulation and unrighteousness.
If you challenge authority you are independent, rebellious, proud, arrogant, etc. But if a leader is any of these things confess your sin, everybody forgive and move on. This is not right nor is it reflective of God’s love or His justice.
As I study and understand the scripture, our life with the Lord is about us being expressions of His compassion, grace, mercy, love, kindness, reliability and forgiveness in the earth. These attributes are what the Bible describes as the Glory of God.
My love for you (Stunned) is because you are a real person, a Christian and a sister not based on how good you are or how much sin you have overcome but because you are created in the image of God, that you have great value to God and to others (us) and the love of God that lives in my heart.
There may be some things the Piper teaches that I might debate but I love his description of how he describes himself as a Christian hedonist – “I am here to glorify God and enjoy Him forever” That may be more of my paraphrase than an exact quote.
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
I could not agree more James, any one can say anything. These people were my personal friends. I still keep in touch with Ruth K. as well as John and Kathy M. First hand knowledge and relationships are not heresay.
Thank you so much for clearing that up. I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I had thought the views you wrote were actually yours and I was beginning to worry that you weren’t who I thought you were. Wow, I was off. Thank heavens, Brother!
Agelessdebutant,
I am very upset with the way you are communicating to and about a brother in the Lord. I personally do not care how much “first hand” information you claim to have. James has denied your accusations and offered to talk to you directly. If you have a beef with him, then take that up with him personally. He was NOT a part of SGM and was simply relating a personal experience he had with DJ because some SGM members came to his Bible study. If you want to warn us about what you think may be false doctrine from James, then I have no problem with that. But your accusations seem to go much deeper than mere doctrine.
And there is no such thing as “sheep stealing”. No one OWNS the sheep except God. We are all free to go wherever we so choose, whenever we so choose. We are ONE body.
(Jim, if what I am saying here is out of line, please do not post this.)
Stunned – Thank you – It was too late to be posting! A point of clarity in this last paragraph - His wrath and judgement of our sin was satisfied at the cross —
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
You seem waayyyy overly concerned about Mr. Barron’s reputation. Are you in his Bible study? A personal friend? His son?
He can speak for himself, I am sure.
Also, since when is personal knowledge of the people and situations involved (ageless) trumped by “I know Mr. B and Mr. B would never…”
Sounds suspiciously like false (and SGMish) logic to me.
I’m still confused about how the focus of this conversation has now devolved to be all about Mr. Barron and his teaching that believers don’t sin, or at least not very often, and who really cares if they do, since it is all covered by the blood of Jesus.
Better do a study on Jesus’s commands to obey him. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Saved by grace. Called to obey. Freed from punishment. Made righteous by Jesus.
As he did years ago, all attention was drawn his way- but since this is about We-are-fam-a-lee…
I will again (along with RT) try and veer this back to the topic at hand.
Heard that another 5 families have left over the last 2 weeks.
How many Nathans does God have to send before they will listen? Don’t hear what I am not saying, I am NOT happy to see the exodus. I am praying that at some point they begin to listen, repent and change.
Think about it -you’re married for 20 years, your spouse leaves you, do you pray for them, or rejoice when they get cancer?
Hi RT,
I had never spoken with James Barron until yesterday. I have never been in any of his Bible studies. I had absolutely no idea who he was when he made his first post here. Just yesterday, I spoke with him for the very first time. Then I went and listened to a couple of his messages for myself to see what all the fuss was about. All I heard was grace, and no grease. And I never said that I KNEW anyone or anything. I just wanted ageless to handle this in a Godly and loving manner. James was never a part of SGM and SGM is what is what this blog is about – NOT about James Barron! So why blast him???? If ageless has a beef with James Barron, then let her take that beef to James Barron. This forum was not the place for that. That was my point.
veering back on …..how many are left at MLC? And could the bottom line ($$) start feeling this exodus by some chance?
I believe the reason there are NO public confessions is due to the risk of litigation so I also hope that the me$$age is getting across in a variety of ways including attendance and their budget.
veering off….RT – I just have to tell you I LOVED all the questions you quoted from Jesus!
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love does not envy. Love does not parade itself and is not puffed up. It does not behave rudely or seek its own. Love is not provoked and thinks no evil. It does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. He who does not love does not know God, for God is Love. By this we know Love, because He (Jesus Christ) laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” 1st John and 1st Corinthians
Ask the Lord, “Jesus, have I really passed from death to life”? Or to put it another way, “Do I really love my brothers and sisters in Christ?”
Christianity is not rocket science. God loves you! Believe it, receive it, and pass it on.
Going to start singing bum bum bum..another bites the dust.
I agree Nauseated. I really thought after the last Family meeting meant to straighten out the whole Mike N and the repentance by Danny that ensues,people would have calmed down. Far from it. No one is buying it I guess. Two new sets of our friends are starting the new church hunt this weekend, not including the other 3 family units that have left over the past few weeks. Pray that God provides new stable church homes for them all! As for those who are still on the fence, and we know quite a few “heavy hitters” That God would give them wisdom as to where and when. the Why is really not an issue for any of us who have gone.
Sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. I want it all to be like it was 8 years ago. then I get my selfish head out of the sand and embrace what God is doing now, and the journey he has in the future. God is good! There is no reason to look back.
Gene Emerson announced a new Family Meeting on August 15th. He stated encountering God in conviction and empowering in a special way while away for two weeks in prayer, study, and planning, reporting a deepening, and he forecasted a benefit to those who attend.
The part of me who knows Gene is VERY sceptical; the part who knows God is VERY hopeful! If he is willing to risk losing it all, God WILL meet him powerfully. If Gene attempt to re-market the same old, same old with his smile, personality, and “sweetness,” Kingsway and the “churches” Gene oversees with remain in the “O.R.” grasping for LIFE, chugging along like other man-governed institution. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. Maybe I am a little tainted based on my years in his “church,” and my personal dealings with him. God is good and can really turn us around. I pray for you Gene and wonder if those you’ve hurt will be acknowledge or contacted. Don’t try to take a short cut around doing what is right.
Anyone from Kingsway on here? We would love to hear the results of that family meeting to get a feel for the direction SGM is headed in
Hi G.D.! I can undestand your scepticism and also your hope. You don’t sound harsh, just frank. Let’s hope the Holy Spirit is truly working in Gene’s heart. This could bring some good change if it is real.
It’s about time SGM was held accountable – a term and concept they have tossed around for decades now. But, it seems that SGM embraces the Jimmy Swaggart version of accountability – “I’m accountable until I don’t want to be accountable any longer; and I choose to whom I will be held accountable – and my decisions are subject to change.” It’s really rather juvenile. I’ve known them from their inception albeit from a short distance. Thank God though, it was from a distance; although, I have dear friends who have come under their spell.
I have a few thoughts.
1. I agree 100% with the message of Christ’s finished work. It’s as clear to me as the big blue sky. Why isn’t it clear to all those who love truth? The difference between religion and grace is not that of splitting theological hairs. It is as different as life and death. As James Barron has said “This Changes Everything.” It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. It’s quite another to oppose, resist and burn at the stake (metaphorically of course) those who proclaim Good News. This indicates a disturbing turn of mind with which I cannot find any peace.
2. Calvin proposed his doctrine well before the modern atheism of the Enlightenment not to mention 20th century naturalism. “Whodda thunk it” but Calvinism and modern atheism share the same corollary – that there is no free will. No other philosophy or theology maintains this position. Not many people bother to press atheists on this issue mostly because they are busy rehearsing the classic proofs for God’s existence. But as a polemic, we should at least note that Calvinists and atheists are joined at the philosophical hip. Neither the atheist nor the Calvinist can allow for the slightest hint of choice (aka free will) else their system of thought falls like a house of cards. The atheist cannot allow it (free will) because it proves the existence of the transcendent or at least the supra-natural. The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in.
3. Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.
4. Be strong my fellow believers. We should derive encouragement from one of modern’s most prominent atheists, Christopher Hitchens, who has recently noted in his memoir that his early boldness came as he brushed up against world leaders and policy makers and discovered that they were astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed. As well, the “church world” (quite different from the church of which Jesus spoke) is often led by inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy. We are gradually awakening to the fact that “the inmates have been running the asylum” and we common folk may well do a much better job because the spirited believer possesses and uses that all-too-rare ability - discernment (knowing the difference between information and wisdom).
5. When one soaks one’s feet in ice cold water until 4:00 am so that one can stay awake to write whatever may be flowing from one’s head, one should not be judged too harshly for producing “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Stay at it my friends.
Noel, you know that several of us here are reformed, several charismatic, several evangelical, several not sure, several lost, and all of us focused on SGM and the fallout we deal with either as a former member or as a friend or family member. All get along fine as long as we keep our focus on the pain and error and abuse in SGM, right? Your arrogant tone offends.
SGM is as charismatic as they are reformed as they are evangelical. They are a theological mongrel
.
What the heck does this new harshly toned reformed/arminian/whatever debate have to do with SGM?
(And, (honest question) how do you deal with Romans 8 and Romans 9? I always wonder about that.)
Christopher Hitchens…really? Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
Noel,
Excellent post, and welcome to the site. Glad to have you here. Great points about SGM , Calvinism, and free will. In Calvinism and SGM, God chooses who goes to Heaven and therefor, who also will end up in Hell. No one has any choice in the matter whatsoever. I use to be an SGM Calvinist! Thank God that He removed the scales from my eyes to show me the depths of that deception and false teaching. It’s great to be set free by the truth that sets us free! Thank God for His great grace and mercy.
Thanks for your observation about my tone, until the magic age of the internet usually only thought of as discerned audibly. As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.
And I do wish not to divert a forum or thread from its intended course. So, I’ll ask you (and others) what I asked Jim via direct email (when I thought my post was rejected; in fact, it had been lost in cyberspace). Here it is, copied and pasted.
I’d still like your take on my comments if you have time. I’d also like your perspective on exactly how much Calvinism has to do with SGM’s woes. How much does the doctrinal squabble play into people leaving SGM? Also, what part does Reformed Theology play in any heavy authoritarianism within SGM? Does it tend to support it or constrain it? In other words, if SGM takes its Reformed positions seriously (and it certainly seems that they do), will this theology have the effect of encouraging/enabling a cult-like control of people’s lives? Or, will it have the effect of opening people’s eyes? If it does not have the effect of disquieting the flock, why not? When folks leave SGM, do they shed Reformed Theology in general? (I know that you haven’t; but, I wonder if you have a feel for what others have done).
We probably agree that ideas have consequences. Although, I may be taking this for granted. If it’s true, what consequence does Reformed Theology have upon “church life?”
Allrighty then, there she goes. I realize this does nothing to cure my arrogance. (I often muse upon what might have been had I just buckled under, joined PDI/SGM and submitted to the corrective measures designed to deal with my pride and self-sufficiency. At least I could have had a more theologically-correct moniker for my sin than . . . arrogance).
Here is where I hope this may bring some balm to the otherwise hurting saint: Truth, while dificult to swallow at times, is the surest antidote for the issue that is causing the pain. Inasmuch as Reformed Theology is consistent with Truth, it may offer its own therapy. However, inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Truth, it offers its own exacerbating of the pain-causing problem. [I also understand that some error can offer a drug-like effect, numbing the patient, disabling them to sense the warning signs - aka "pain" - produced when we are in error or simply abused by others. 'Tis a difficult matter to discern, I think.]
Disclosure: I was raised Pentecostal and if I am forced to pick a camp, I would pick that one. Not charismatic. Pentecostal. “Holy Rollers” was the theologically-correct designation when I was a kid. Only God knows what it is now. As you can imagine, not a lot scares me.
If you guys allow me to participate, I seek answers as an observer more than as a hurt one or even “one.” For I was never officially a part of SGM. But, the body of Christ being what it is, I claim some kinship even if it is a congenial relationship with one of its pastors. We love Brian and Jill Vander Weide dearly as I think they do us. And we think there are no finer folks in the world, albeit somewhat hoodwinked by the whole SGM thingamabob.
You asked: Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
My answer is a typically religious one – “please trust me; I hope not to name names.” But, if I must, Noel Cookman circa 1976 – 1998. No big kahuna or anything of the sort. But, in my own little world, people did ascribe some sort of supremacy to me. I wasn’t smart enough to turn it into cash. But, it happened nonetheless.
If you can wait for me to tackle Romans 8 & 9 until I’ve had more coffee, I’d appreciate your patience. Unless you tell me differently, I’ll look for how this part of Paul’s writing deals with what we call Reformed Theology.
RT
I am not sure that I would describe Noel’s post as having an “arrogant tone.” One should also note that this Noel appears to be different than the other Noel who attended the Fairfax SGM Church (along with her husband “Grizzly” and shared how her 3 year old daughter was molested and how the Fairfax SGM Leaders seem to try and protect the 15 year old molester. That Noel’s story can be read on SGM Survivors.
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This Noel (Cookman) certainly posted some information I haven’t heard before about Calvinism. It certainly makes some good points.
You ask what does her discussion has to do with Sovereign Grace Ministries. For one, the part of SGM’s name that mentions “sovereign grace” is another way of saying Calvinism. For example I have seen some Baptist Churches go the name Sovereign Grace Baptist and others use the name Free Will Baptist Church. Again SGM’s name blatantly says they are Calvinistic.
I would say it has even more relevance in that Mahaney and other top leaders very surreptitiously moved the group towards Calvinism. It wasn’t like the group announced their change in doctrine and were open about it. This change was one of the reasons that Larry Tomczak indicated (in one of his books) why he left the group and one of the reasons why the group’s first church plant in Cleveland left the group.
It is sad that when a group decides on a change like this they can’t be more open about it. It doesn’t show a lot of integrity.
One thing that baffles me is that is appears that not many of the regular SGM Members know what Calvinism teaches including the possibility that some of their children have no chance of being saved even if their parents do all the right things. Of course as has been said before, SGM Leaders’ actions sometimes contradict their supposedly believing in Calvinism.
I am a man, or so says my wife when forced to admit it. And “Noel” is such a lovely name. And to make matters worse, my physiognomy is not near as lovely, not what one would hope from someone named “Noel.”
SGM/PDI’s view of pastoral authority comes from the shepherding movement, which I don’t think defined themselves as reformed. SGM’s use of the word “apostle” is a hangover from their early, more charismatic days, although they re-define the term every few years.
It’s interesting to note that many early PDI leaders who left (possibly) because of PDI’s drift toward their brand of reformed theology still call themselves apostles.
Glad you didn’t ask me about Romans 7.
If a new believer were to read this before he is “taught” by the elders, he would probably think that he was free and that the law of sin and death no longer condemned him or applied to him. He might even think that he was free to sin but would soon learn the simple truth about how our bodies are ministers of one thing or another and probably wouldn’t persist in this error.
Teachers have been able to disabuse new believers of this notion rather efficiently. The quickest way to do this is to convince the new believer that there really is no NEW covenant; that we are all under one continuous covenant and that sin is an ongoing problem for the believer – both as a behavior and as a point of condemnation. (This is critical to Reformed Theology although I’m not sure which letter of TULIP it fits under).
The sense that God still condemns us (or at least requires our ongoing confession and repentance) fits nicely into the “carnal” mindset although, when I was a preacher, such a message garnered the loudest “amen’s.” For all the bad rap it gets, condemnation is preferred fare for many a church person.
Have you studied the “Christus victor” views of the atonement? There is much error that comes from the “penal substitution” theory of the Reformers and SGM crowd.
Check out this absolutely OUTSTANDING article that hits and corrects this issue head on: It is very long, so just check out the first 3 – 4 pages at first. Very intense confrontation.
The drama surrounding my dismemberment happened before PDI morphed into its Calvinistic incarnation SGM. I would also lay blame on the connection between this family of churches and the shepherding movement.
I would also like to note that my husband and I noticed a shift when Larry T. left. I believe there was something of a balance when LT and CJM shared power. This power void was quickly filled by CJ creating the Sith Lord we know today.
I am somewhat intrigued by the connection between some legalists and Calvinism. I don’t think SGM theology lines up with 5 point TULIP I think they are zinneas or dandilions or some other sort of species.
Because of SGM’s warped focus on indwelling sin, they have denied their very name of “Sovereign Grace”. They have put their members back under the law - THEIR law. They only extend “grace” to those who follow and obey THEM and their doctrinal understandings and rules.
Here is a quote from the article I mentioned:
“Despite man’s concoctions of what justice “ought to be” the biblical picture of justice is about making things right again, about restoration, about liberation. In the biblical paradigm death is not what “justice requires”, rather death is the enemy that justice conquers through the cross (1 Cor 15:25-26,54-57). Man’s picture of justice is to put people in prison; Jesus’ vision of justice was to release the captives from their prison (Luke 4:18) ”
SGM puts their sinners into an accountabilty prison with a warden to keep watch. They want DISCIPLINE! Not in the Biblical sense of the word, but in their perverted underdstanding. I have seen the saints at SGM crushed under such intense scrutiny and hand cuffing. The SGM police squad feel the freedom to abuse and torture their captors. And the “sinners” feel it is all justified because they ARE “sinners”. I know this very well from first hand experience. I was kicked out of my SGM church twice.
One point that has been discussed before is that SGM call itself “reformed” but some of its practices aren’t what usually happen in a reformed church. The people that SGM call “elders” aren’t lay people from the congregation but the paid staff. Also I understand that most reformed churches the elders are usually elected.
Apparently SGM likes to call itself reformed for a number of reasons. One is that Mahaney can use that to mingle with the other RBD (Reformed Big Dogs). I wouldn’t say that the group being reformed leads to their problems including the reported spiritual abuse.
You are the first person that I have mentioned “Christus victor” to that has even heard of it. It is not talked about very much in the vast majority of churches. I had been a Christian for over 30 years before I first heard about it, and that was through the Internet. Now I am reading everything I can get my hands on about it! It has opened up a whole new world of understanding about Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. I was shocked at how narrow my understanding of the cross was. And how WRONG my understanding was!
Did God ”SO LOVE” the world, or was God so ticked off and angry with the world. I thought the cross was all about satisfying God’s holy wrath toward sin. Some have called that theory Heavenly child abuse. Why would God need to have Jesus tortured on the cross in order to forgive us? Some have asked, “Did Jesus come to save us from God?”!!!! OH MY! We hear so much about God’s wrath and judement of sin, and so little about His “mercy that endures FOREVER!
Jesus came to save us from sin, death, Satan, and evil! He did not come to save us from God! What a wonderful discovery! For God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only Son! GAVE – not tortured! Jesus ws God’s gift to us, not some cosmic voodoo doll to stick pins in to appease God’s uncontrolled temper!
SMG IS NO MORE REFORMED THAN MY NEIGHBOR’S GOLDFISH.
Steve–I visited Noel’s linked site–definitely not our Noel, but hey! Not bad at all! Great picture! Welcome to SGMrefuge.
I must disagree slightly with some of the take that The Reformed Crowd (since you insist on seeing us a some sort of Soviet Bloc of the church–dang Francis Shaeffer and all those other morons) are the legalists in the American church.
For some time, I was in a Pentecostal community. That was the place where I learned women don’t wear pants, women don’t wear makeup, women don’t work outside the home, women don’t ever teach men or engage with them in spiritual discussions. Men don’t wear shorts (which, I must say, is a great idea in the case of many men), men don’t drink wine or beer, believers use the KJV only, etc. No rock music. No painted fingernails. Women and men don’t sit next to each other unless they are married. (Hey, wait a minute, that sounds a heck of alot like SGM!)
Sounds like legalism to me. I will therefore make this proclamation: all Pentecostal churches are filled and run by legalists.
Funny, found the same thing in an independent Baptist church later.
I know that certainly exists within some reformed churches.
Perhaps I have to redefine my definitions, and not paint with such a broad brush.
I worship in a free place, with passionate people who pour out their lives for the Saviour they love, in service, in worship, in missions, in giving, in love. When we’re not guarding the door against some slimeball wanting to run to Jesus, (we all take turns with that…who knows WHO might slip in if we don’t watch closely) we are busy tutoring the refugees in the complex next door and gathering food and furniture for their families who are fleeing here from Sudan. And I’ve heard that Emmanuel Baptist down the street is a marvelous place of freedom, as is the Episcopal church around the block. People love several Southern Baptist churches in town, (but you have to wear panty hose there, forget it, no way.)
Is it possible we are all speaking from our own experiences in the congregations in which we’ve worshiped?
Dennis and Noel, no legitimate reformed church would say that SGM is in any way reformed. We’ve hashed this out endlessly on this blog.
What if I said I think they’re charismatic. After all, they receive “prophecies” at the mic, they dance in worship, they (many) speak in tongues, they jump up and down alot, they are led by an appointed pastor, and not by congregationally elected….whoops, now they just morphed into an episcopal model…they hold to apostles and a strictly delineated hierarchical polity, they have an approved list of books…whoops, they believe that God is sovereign in electing his people….just slid to the reformed side.
Noel, please forgive me if I misread your tone. I felt, as a believer, condemned by your comments. I see now I was wrong:
“Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.” (And if I replied that Pentecostalism is suited to backwater hicks and uneducated morons, you might agree, since that would be the flip side of your argument? Us academics and intellectuals at one trough, you the humble uneducated and unstudied at the other? Are you insane? All are welcome at the table of grace. The most simple grasp the truth of grace most simply. Pentecostals are uneducated? Steve, whaddya think?)
“The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in. “ Right–which is why we send out thousands of missionaries around the world…looking to guard the kingdom against the random nut job that might try to slip in. Your logic is laughable and fallacious. Perhaps some research is called for rather than ranting? Would you like to stack up the list of Pentecostal missionaries on the field right now and compare it to the number of missionaries who would call themselves reformed?
Whosoever believes in him is saved. Period. Why can’t we just agree to that and get to work, like the missionaries are doing from both sides of the discussion?
I extrapolate that I am the “astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed” from your Christopher H. comment? I’m sorry, are you delusional? Then, you make a blanket and snooty sounding reference to all those: ” inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
I’m assuming you mean Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff, right? No wait, those are simply the major Charismatic /Pentecostal morally bankrupt charletans who ripped off, and continue to do so, thousands of sycophantic followers.
Name the names, don’t try to squirm around them with some humilty-talk. Are you talking about CJ, or about Piper? About Emerson, or about Keller?
“As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.”
What the heck? Why the sarcasm? You might be under some illusion, my brother, that I am SGM? I’m not. I teach a slew of SGM kids and have become enraged by the spiritual abuse and oppression under which they live. I’m simply a Jesus follower, as are you, who rejoices to see a stream of my friends and students walking out into the light from the murky cloud that is SGM.
May I engage in conversation with you on your point 1. “It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. “ I’m sorry, but I believe you are talking about me here? I hold to the reformed traditions, and don’t have to work too hard to get around something as straightforward as Romans 8 and 9–I just read the Word. I hope I am relieved from this pretension soon, and know you hope the same thing.
For example, I simply read Ephesians 1 and take it as truth: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Or in 1 Cor. 1: 8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
I see here a BRAIDED mystery: God predestines, God calls, I hear the mighty word of faith, I receive the Holy Spirit when I believe the gospel of my salvation.
From my point of view: free will.
From his point of view: irresistable grace–a God who has called and saved his people since the original mother-promise in the garden.
This causes me to worship in thankfulness, and to be burdened with the call to share the gospel with the world, to cast the net wide. How do I know for whom the Spirit calls? Why do the free will crowd pray for someone’s salvation, if the Holy Spirit is not involved in the work?
Logically, if you pray for someone’s salvation, you are invoking the work of the Holy Spirit, therefore admitting your winsome spiritual or theological arguments are not sufficient.
If the Holy Spirit must be involved in the saving work of faith and grace, (which you acknowledge when you pray for a loved one to come to faith) and he only shows up if you call on him to become involved in someone’s life, doesn’t that make him at your beck and call, so to speak? And mean as hell, besides, since he wants all to be saved, can do it himself, and chooses NOT TO?
I think you must be sad in this: you believe that it is the Lord’s will for everyone to be saved.
You believe he can work in anyone’s life to draw them to Christ, which is shown by your calling on him to do so in specific cases.
So, if he wants all to be saved, and can do it by working in their lives, why in the world isn’t everyone saved? Could it be because there is a bigger story at work? A story so magnificent and so terrifying that only the Universe-breathing God could possibly understand it?
Concerning “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Could you reference to me the written work you have done to push back the effects of the fall? As a snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believer, making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality, I would welcome the opportunity to read the work you have done in the 21st century, years, decades, centuries, after the reformation brought clarity to the church, to build up the church? I wonder if you stand on the shoulders of scholars of all persuasions, yet contribute little except vitriolic attacks?
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Do you not believe that if the church is here in 450 years, it will not look back to this year, our books, our teachings, and say, “This is good, this is ridiculous, almost had it right here, whoops, check this out?”
You seem as if you would have prefered that we remain chained to Rome, buying indulgences, locked away from the Word that saves, allowing a man to stand between us and God?
Why the fury over the notion of a God who has chosen his people from before time?
Why don’t you rail against the God in the OT? I never hear a peep about his revealed nature there. Did he change his nature? This would imply he was not perfected, not holy. Yet you are not infuriated that he commanded entire peoples to be wiped out, with no chance of salvation offered? Men, women and children killed? What kind of vile monster would do that?
Can’t we just shake hands, and agree that none of us has it right? I couldn’t give a flying Fig Newton that your theology is wrong, your view of God is wrong. Doesn’t bother me in the least. You confess Jesus as Saviour. That is the litmus test. God will work our theologies out by changing you, changing me, changing both of us, whatever. He is high and holy. And well able to deal with family squabbles.
Why then, the emotional raging I sense from your side of the aisle? Why all the hard work you do to either not address passages like Romans, Ephesians, etc.? I fully accept free will–because that is what it seems like on our side of the dusty mirror, and because we are urged in Scripture to place our faith in Jesus. I did so. But I believe, because I take the word plainly, that there is something else going on on the other clear side of the mirror that I simply don’t comprehend. I remember the calling in my heart. I remember the day I heard him. I could not sooner have denied that call than I could have flown. Nothing in the world seemed sweeter to me than Jesus, yet the week before I wouldn’t have given him the time of day.
Let’s talk more about this…on the other side. Won’t be as much fun, though, since we’ll be perfected and in complete agreement. Talking face to face is so much better than contributing to our carpal tunnel issues.
Romans 5:9
Therefore, since we are now justified ( acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?
Ephesians 2:3
Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
These are only 3 of the 32 times God’s wrath is mentioned in the New Testament.
I’m done-RT has just said everything I’d like to say (and more, as she’s smarter that I am) on the issue.
Guys, can we take a break and leave our pet doctrines (or hatred of the beliefs of others) at the door for a while? I’m really sick of the tone here lately.
If you’re here to pick a fight, please think twice before you post.
What about Col 1: 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel…
Death on a cross: the most humiliating and horrifyingly painful imaginable. Suffering, sweat, blood, strangulation, stabbing, nails, broken bones, thirst, heat, pain, isolation.
If there was no substitutionary work being done, why didn’t he just blow a dandelion, click his heels together three times, and sing Kum-ba-ya?
Perhaps we should be thinking about this: why is it so important to believe that there was no wrath directed towards us from a holy God which had to be removed from us?
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
HOW DO YOU SIMPLY IGNORE SCRIPTURE?
Of course his love for us drove him–to the cross.
How do I approach one who would step in front of me before his father?
With awe, trembling, love, desire, surprise, thankfulness.
Do you have Greek Interlinear Bible? Romans 5:9 says that we are saved by Him from indignation and wrath. The “OF GOD” was added by the translators, and is not in the Greek text.
The same is true of Ephesians 2:3. I noticed that you have GOD in brackets. Again, showing it is not in the Greek text.
That leaves Romans 9:22. Can you tell me exactly what “vessels of anger” are?
You used the word “hatred.” That is precisely the thing that has caused me heart-ache here the last couple of weeks. Spot on. Couldn’t put my finger on it before.
This is good for SGMers to see? This helps them see the beauty and freedom out here?
Or does it just make them pull their heads back in and take another sip of the Cherry Kool-aid?
Wow, um, this has been quite the thread lately! I’ve been following it on my iPod Touch while on vacation but tiny on-screen keyboards do not lend themselves to much commenting. Thanks, RT and Jim, for your uber rational posts. Others of you, too, but those are the two that stand out most recently. I think it is tempting for those of us who object to a heavy focus on sin and wrath to run too far to the opposite end of the spectrum in reaction. Watch carefully which new doctrinal door you choose to take refuge behind. It is not necessarily right just because it is different from the one from which you just fled.
~ Vida
In the face of increasing dependence on strong leadership in Christian circles, evangelicals who value the legitimate role of biblical submission and headship, must reaffirm the freedom which characterizes the new life in Christ. We must resist any teaching that brings into question Christ’s role as the sole mediator (go-between) between God and man. We must reassert that no Christian is ever called upon to give unquestioning obedience to anyone. We ultimately must accept only the lordship of Christ. — Dr. Ronald Enroth
DB
Nausted is not a memebr of SGM, MLC or any leadership team.
Steve:
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I can answer that for you. Metro Life was about 125 people back in that day and James Barron was never a memebr or a part of that fellowship. Ruth, the woman who struggled with that lifestyle became “free” if you want to call it that, at Tree of Life. She was then “free”to engage in a relationship with Donna who was married to Bill. At Tree of Life they were “free by the grace of God” to have there relationship until Bill could not take it anymore, and they divorced. Dear friends of our were on the fence about leaving Metro and joined Tree of Life. They had a joint meeting with James and Danny . When Kathy asked the question I asked James above about confessing adultry to your spouse, Jame’s response was NO! It is covered by the blood. When we got together with John and Kathy afterwards that was the key that made them bail out of Tree of Life. James built his church by sheep stealing. We know because we were heavily courted by people in the Tree of Life movement. Bill, Donna and Ruth are far from the only horror story. Brian and Sheryl, Ken, Selmer and Ellen. The people that heard gressy grace and then came back to convince others to join them There was no evangelism at Tree. The methodology for church growth was devisive. James, you know a lot. That lawyer gene is strong. You look for those who have been beat up by legalism. I see this is now your new playground. It’s a small world James.
PS I left SGM in December of 2009 on sabatical and formally no longer a memberafter 22 years as of June 2010. I have posted many times here and I am no great lover of SGM in it’s present state, so please don’t tag me in that light. I advise you all to move with caution. Satan wispers just enough truth and then twists the end note.
Hi Canary,
Can you please remind us all again about the love of Christ being our motivation for what we say and do. It seems like some of us think that 1 Peter 4:17 states “For the time is come that judgmentalism must begin at the house of God.”
Judging doctrine is one thing, but judging hearts and motives is quite another. Galatians 5:15 warns, “If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” (NIV)
Nauseated,
I will take you at your word.
Anyway, Jim had your back.
I just don’t like seeing a good friend hurt.
I wonder what the church would be like if we treated anger, unforgiveness, anxiousness,etc. on an equal footing as adultry, divorce, etc. as sin is sin —– guilt of one – guilty of all — I seem to remember that God hates sin — not just divorce!!
Thank God His wrath against our sin was satisfied at the cross. My problem is Christians keep nailing each other to the cross!!
But there you go!!
Agelessdebutante:
You have really, really, really been misinformed as to the facts about situations in the personal lives of believers that happened about 20 years ago. Feel free to contact me personally, if you sincerely want to know the truth. I hope you find peace and joy again in the journey in your transition out of SGM. The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever. I pray that everyone who participates on this site will remember our Lord’s words: “Love one another, as I have loved you.” Blessings to you all, my brothers and sisters. It’s been great to talk to some of you by phone this week. Be encouraged. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the revelation of Jesus the Christ. Amen.
I was offline for a few days, and when I came back, wow, what a lot to wade through, and much of it wayyy out of the normal stream of this discussion.
Stunned — you are stunning. As soon as I read the post about divorce that you responded to, I was ready to jump right in. But then, I read a little farther and saw that you’d taken the words right off my page and made them far more eloquent.
Believe it or not, the person who set me free from being about judgmental about divorced people was RC Cola himself — Sproul — way back before SGM ever heard of him. We went through a Sunday school series in a PCA church, and he explained the dilemma pretty well. God hates divorce , yes, but he’s the one who provided it.
After years of seeing marriages in action, I finally came to understand that divorce is often just a public acknowledgment of something that has already happened in private. Sadly, many people I know are already privately “divorced”, but continue to cohabit due to their fear of judgmentalism from the people they love. How I love the church — but how sad that many times, we are the army that shoots its own wounded.
RT — you’re the bomb. You’ve got it going on, girl.
Next time lightning zaps my internet service, I’m gonna check in somewhere else. Too much to catch up on!
Our dear Irv, ah, not that I don’t feel like I haven’t already stirred enough things here today, but are you equating anger (an emotion) and anxiousness (usually a medical condition) with sin? It would seem like you just equated adultry with divorce. Hmm. Am I missing something or did you miss my post above? (Doing my best not to end this with “Boi”.
But I know you don’t live in the hood so it probably wouldn’t have the same effect.)
PS. Like the “nailing each other to the cross” comment.
Jim:
After agelessdebutante made those serious allegations, I would ask that you would be fair to me and post the comment I sent to you for posting minutes ago. Thanks.
James
Dennis, love should definitely be our guide. Some people who come on here are still working through emotions they don’t quite understand. So, we have to be patient with each other. I’ve been thinking more about Stunned during this conversation than about doctrine. To me, she is more important. So I’m a little lost about this James Barron discussion. Better minds will have to figure that one out.
James,
If you’re referring to an email, I didn’t receive it. Maybe you’re referring to a comment that was stuck in moderation.
Comments go into moderation at random-it’s not something I have set up. During the day, I’m stuck my computer (self employed) and clear as quick as I can. After hours is another matter.
Jim:
No problem. You posted it. Thanks much. It was my comment that posted at 9:47 pm. It must have been stuck in moderation. I just wanted agelessdebutante to know that she could call me directly if she wanted to know the facts. In her comment posted at 5:54 pm about me and other believers and Tree of Life Fellowship there was only one thing she stated that was true and that was that I was never a member of an SGM church. Every other single statement in that comment was untrue. Every single one. The problem with blogs is that anyone can say anything. Thanks for being fair, Jim.
Stunned –
I was merely trying to say the church qualifies sin into acceptable and unacceptable categories as far as how we treat one another. We destroy(nail them to the cross) the divorced and the ‘unwanted or unfortunate’ pregancy’ of a single woman but we accept and treat people with other sins much differently.
We are very good at destroying one another with our judgment of one another based on how we qualify or determine the weight of the sins of others. These are the sames sins past, present and future for which Christ gave His life on the cross. There are Christians that believe they are compromising God’s word if they love and care for someone who is divorced. Yet when they deal with others who are proud or arrogant or whatever they are so forgiving and gracious. Within SGM — if you pursue divorce then it is questionable whether you are saved and certainly you don’t understand the gospel or you would not divorce (regardless of the situation). Such manipulation and unrighteousness.
If you challenge authority you are independent, rebellious, proud, arrogant, etc. But if a leader is any of these things confess your sin, everybody forgive and move on. This is not right nor is it reflective of God’s love or His justice.
As I study and understand the scripture, our life with the Lord is about us being expressions of His compassion, grace, mercy, love, kindness, reliability and forgiveness in the earth. These attributes are what the Bible describes as the Glory of God.
My love for you (Stunned) is because you are a real person, a Christian and a sister not based on how good you are or how much sin you have overcome but because you are created in the image of God, that you have great value to God and to others (us) and the love of God that lives in my heart.
There may be some things the Piper teaches that I might debate but I love his description of how he describes himself as a Christian hedonist – “I am here to glorify God and enjoy Him forever” That may be more of my paraphrase than an exact quote.
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
I could not agree more James, any one can say anything. These people were my personal friends. I still keep in touch with Ruth K. as well as John and Kathy M. First hand knowledge and relationships are not heresay.
Irv,
Thank you so much for clearing that up. I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I had thought the views you wrote were actually yours and I was beginning to worry that you weren’t who I thought you were. Wow, I was off. Thank heavens, Brother!
Have a good one,
Stunned
Agelessdebutant,
I am very upset with the way you are communicating to and about a brother in the Lord. I personally do not care how much “first hand” information you claim to have. James has denied your accusations and offered to talk to you directly. If you have a beef with him, then take that up with him personally. He was NOT a part of SGM and was simply relating a personal experience he had with DJ because some SGM members came to his Bible study. If you want to warn us about what you think may be false doctrine from James, then I have no problem with that. But your accusations seem to go much deeper than mere doctrine.
And there is no such thing as “sheep stealing”. No one OWNS the sheep except God. We are all free to go wherever we so choose, whenever we so choose. We are ONE body.
(Jim, if what I am saying here is out of line, please do not post this.)
Dennis-I said what I had to say to you yesterday.
If you want to argue with other guests every time they say something you disagree with, knock yourself out. SGM will look at “refuge” and laugh.
Interesting that the title of this thread is “we are family”.
Let SGM laugh Jim. God is not laughing. I stopped caring what SGM thinks long ago.
Stunned – Thank you – It was too late to be posting! A point of clarity in this last paragraph - His wrath and judgement of our sin was satisfied at the cross —
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
Quick question for Dennis–
You seem waayyyy overly concerned about Mr. Barron’s reputation. Are you in his Bible study? A personal friend? His son?
He can speak for himself, I am sure.
Also, since when is personal knowledge of the people and situations involved (ageless) trumped by “I know Mr. B and Mr. B would never…”
Sounds suspiciously like false (and SGMish) logic to me.
I’m still confused about how the focus of this conversation has now devolved to be all about Mr. Barron and his teaching that believers don’t sin, or at least not very often, and who really cares if they do, since it is all covered by the blood of Jesus.
Better do a study on Jesus’s commands to obey him. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Saved by grace. Called to obey. Freed from punishment. Made righteous by Jesus.
A mystery.
Saved by grace. Called to obey. Freed from punishment. Made righteous by Jesus.
A mystery.
I’ll tweet to that!
As he did years ago, all attention was drawn his way- but since this is about
We-are-fam-a-lee…
I will again (along with RT) try and veer this back to the topic at hand.
Heard that another 5 families have left over the last 2 weeks.
How many Nathans does God have to send before they will listen? Don’t hear what I am not saying, I am NOT happy to see the exodus. I am praying that at some point they begin to listen, repent and change.
Think about it -you’re married for 20 years, your spouse leaves you, do you pray for them, or rejoice when they get cancer?
Hi RT,
I had never spoken with James Barron until yesterday. I have never been in any of his Bible studies. I had absolutely no idea who he was when he made his first post here. Just yesterday, I spoke with him for the very first time. Then I went and listened to a couple of his messages for myself to see what all the fuss was about. All I heard was grace, and no grease. And I never said that I KNEW anyone or anything. I just wanted ageless to handle this in a Godly and loving manner. James was never a part of SGM and SGM is what is what this blog is about – NOT about James Barron! So why blast him???? If ageless has a beef with James Barron, then let her take that beef to James Barron. This forum was not the place for that. That was my point.
veering back on …..how many are left at MLC? And could the bottom line ($$) start feeling this exodus by some chance?
I believe the reason there are NO public confessions is due to the risk of litigation so I also hope that the me$$age is getting across in a variety of ways including attendance and their budget.
veering off….RT – I just have to tell you I LOVED all the questions you quoted from Jesus!
ok, back on topic………
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love does not envy. Love does not parade itself and is not puffed up. It does not behave rudely or seek its own. Love is not provoked and thinks no evil. It does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. He who does not love does not know God, for God is Love. By this we know Love, because He (Jesus Christ) laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” 1st John and 1st Corinthians
Ask the Lord, “Jesus, have I really passed from death to life”? Or to put it another way, “Do I really love my brothers and sisters in Christ?”
Christianity is not rocket science. God loves you! Believe it, receive it, and pass it on.
Chris Wiley in Christ
Going to start singing bum bum bum..another bites the dust.
I agree Nauseated. I really thought after the last Family meeting meant to straighten out the whole Mike N and the repentance by Danny that ensues,people would have calmed down. Far from it. No one is buying it I guess. Two new sets of our friends are starting the new church hunt this weekend, not including the other 3 family units that have left over the past few weeks. Pray that God provides new stable church homes for them all! As for those who are still on the fence, and we know quite a few “heavy hitters” That God would give them wisdom as to where and when. the Why is really not an issue for any of us who have gone.
Sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. I want it all to be like it was 8 years ago. then I get my selfish head out of the sand and embrace what God is doing now, and the journey he has in the future. God is good! There is no reason to look back.
Gene Emerson announced a new Family Meeting on August 15th. He stated encountering God in conviction and empowering in a special way while away for two weeks in prayer, study, and planning, reporting a deepening, and he forecasted a benefit to those who attend.
The part of me who knows Gene is VERY sceptical; the part who knows God is VERY hopeful! If he is willing to risk losing it all, God WILL meet him powerfully. If Gene attempt to re-market the same old, same old with his smile, personality, and “sweetness,” Kingsway and the “churches” Gene oversees with remain in the “O.R.” grasping for LIFE, chugging along like other man-governed institution. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. Maybe I am a little tainted based on my years in his “church,” and my personal dealings with him. God is good and can really turn us around. I pray for you Gene and wonder if those you’ve hurt will be acknowledge or contacted. Don’t try to take a short cut around doing what is right.
Anyone from Kingsway on here? We would love to hear the results of that family meeting to get a feel for the direction SGM is headed in
Hi G.D.! I can undestand your scepticism and also your hope. You don’t sound harsh, just frank. Let’s hope the Holy Spirit is truly working in Gene’s heart. This could bring some good change if it is real.
Thanks Canary. You are always gracious.
I’ll keep my ears to the ground in VA–so much pain coming out of there right now.
It’s about time SGM was held accountable – a term and concept they have tossed around for decades now. But, it seems that SGM embraces the Jimmy Swaggart version of accountability – “I’m accountable until I don’t want to be accountable any longer; and I choose to whom I will be held accountable – and my decisions are subject to change.” It’s really rather juvenile. I’ve known them from their inception albeit from a short distance. Thank God though, it was from a distance; although, I have dear friends who have come under their spell.
I have a few thoughts.
1. I agree 100% with the message of Christ’s finished work. It’s as clear to me as the big blue sky. Why isn’t it clear to all those who love truth? The difference between religion and grace is not that of splitting theological hairs. It is as different as life and death. As James Barron has said “This Changes Everything.” It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. It’s quite another to oppose, resist and burn at the stake (metaphorically of course) those who proclaim Good News. This indicates a disturbing turn of mind with which I cannot find any peace.
2. Calvin proposed his doctrine well before the modern atheism of the Enlightenment not to mention 20th century naturalism. “Whodda thunk it” but Calvinism and modern atheism share the same corollary – that there is no free will. No other philosophy or theology maintains this position. Not many people bother to press atheists on this issue mostly because they are busy rehearsing the classic proofs for God’s existence. But as a polemic, we should at least note that Calvinists and atheists are joined at the philosophical hip. Neither the atheist nor the Calvinist can allow for the slightest hint of choice (aka free will) else their system of thought falls like a house of cards. The atheist cannot allow it (free will) because it proves the existence of the transcendent or at least the supra-natural. The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in.
3. Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.
4. Be strong my fellow believers. We should derive encouragement from one of modern’s most prominent atheists, Christopher Hitchens, who has recently noted in his memoir that his early boldness came as he brushed up against world leaders and policy makers and discovered that they were astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed. As well, the “church world” (quite different from the church of which Jesus spoke) is often led by inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy. We are gradually awakening to the fact that “the inmates have been running the asylum” and we common folk may well do a much better job because the spirited believer possesses and uses that all-too-rare ability - discernment (knowing the difference between information and wisdom).
5. When one soaks one’s feet in ice cold water until 4:00 am so that one can stay awake to write whatever may be flowing from one’s head, one should not be judged too harshly for producing “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Stay at it my friends.
OK, I’ll bite.
Noel, you know that several of us here are reformed, several charismatic, several evangelical, several not sure, several lost, and all of us focused on SGM and the fallout we deal with either as a former member or as a friend or family member. All get along fine as long as we keep our focus on the pain and error and abuse in SGM, right? Your arrogant tone offends.
SGM is as charismatic as they are reformed as they are evangelical. They are a theological mongrel
.
What the heck does this new harshly toned reformed/arminian/whatever debate have to do with SGM?
(And, (honest question) how do you deal with Romans 8 and Romans 9? I always wonder about that.)
Christopher Hitchens…really? Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
Can we get back on track???
Noel,
Excellent post, and welcome to the site. Glad to have you here. Great points about SGM , Calvinism, and free will. In Calvinism and SGM, God chooses who goes to Heaven and therefor, who also will end up in Hell. No one has any choice in the matter whatsoever. I use to be an SGM Calvinist! Thank God that He removed the scales from my eyes to show me the depths of that deception and false teaching. It’s great to be set free by the truth that sets us free! Thank God for His great grace and mercy.
RT:
Thanks for your observation about my tone, until the magic age of the internet usually only thought of as discerned audibly. As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.
And I do wish not to divert a forum or thread from its intended course. So, I’ll ask you (and others) what I asked Jim via direct email (when I thought my post was rejected; in fact, it had been lost in cyberspace). Here it is, copied and pasted.
I’d still like your take on my comments if you have time. I’d also like your perspective on exactly how much Calvinism has to do with SGM’s woes. How much does the doctrinal squabble play into people leaving SGM? Also, what part does Reformed Theology play in any heavy authoritarianism within SGM? Does it tend to support it or constrain it? In other words, if SGM takes its Reformed positions seriously (and it certainly seems that they do), will this theology have the effect of encouraging/enabling a cult-like control of people’s lives? Or, will it have the effect of opening people’s eyes? If it does not have the effect of disquieting the flock, why not? When folks leave SGM, do they shed Reformed Theology in general? (I know that you haven’t; but, I wonder if you have a feel for what others have done).
We probably agree that ideas have consequences. Although, I may be taking this for granted. If it’s true, what consequence does Reformed Theology have upon “church life?”
Allrighty then, there she goes. I realize this does nothing to cure my arrogance. (I often muse upon what might have been had I just buckled under, joined PDI/SGM and submitted to the corrective measures designed to deal with my pride and self-sufficiency. At least I could have had a more theologically-correct moniker for my sin than . . . arrogance).
Here is where I hope this may bring some balm to the otherwise hurting saint: Truth, while dificult to swallow at times, is the surest antidote for the issue that is causing the pain. Inasmuch as Reformed Theology is consistent with Truth, it may offer its own therapy. However, inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Truth, it offers its own exacerbating of the pain-causing problem. [I also understand that some error can offer a drug-like effect, numbing the patient, disabling them to sense the warning signs - aka "pain" - produced when we are in error or simply abused by others. 'Tis a difficult matter to discern, I think.]
Disclosure: I was raised Pentecostal and if I am forced to pick a camp, I would pick that one. Not charismatic. Pentecostal. “Holy Rollers” was the theologically-correct designation when I was a kid. Only God knows what it is now. As you can imagine, not a lot scares me.
If you guys allow me to participate, I seek answers as an observer more than as a hurt one or even “one.” For I was never officially a part of SGM. But, the body of Christ being what it is, I claim some kinship even if it is a congenial relationship with one of its pastors. We love Brian and Jill Vander Weide dearly as I think they do us. And we think there are no finer folks in the world, albeit somewhat hoodwinked by the whole SGM thingamabob.
You asked: Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
My answer is a typically religious one – “please trust me; I hope not to name names.” But, if I must, Noel Cookman circa 1976 – 1998. No big kahuna or anything of the sort. But, in my own little world, people did ascribe some sort of supremacy to me. I wasn’t smart enough to turn it into cash. But, it happened nonetheless.
If you can wait for me to tackle Romans 8 & 9 until I’ve had more coffee, I’d appreciate your patience. Unless you tell me differently, I’ll look for how this part of Paul’s writing deals with what we call Reformed Theology.
Blessings my friend.
RT
I am not sure that I would describe Noel’s post as having an “arrogant tone.” One should also note that this Noel appears to be different than the other Noel who attended the Fairfax SGM Church (along with her husband “Grizzly” and shared how her 3 year old daughter was molested and how the Fairfax SGM Leaders seem to try and protect the 15 year old molester. That Noel’s story can be read on SGM Survivors.
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This Noel (Cookman) certainly posted some information I haven’t heard before about Calvinism. It certainly makes some good points.
You ask what does her discussion has to do with Sovereign Grace Ministries. For one, the part of SGM’s name that mentions “sovereign grace” is another way of saying Calvinism. For example I have seen some Baptist Churches go the name Sovereign Grace Baptist and others use the name Free Will Baptist Church. Again SGM’s name blatantly says they are Calvinistic.
I would say it has even more relevance in that Mahaney and other top leaders very surreptitiously moved the group towards Calvinism. It wasn’t like the group announced their change in doctrine and were open about it. This change was one of the reasons that Larry Tomczak indicated (in one of his books) why he left the group and one of the reasons why the group’s first church plant in Cleveland left the group.
It is sad that when a group decides on a change like this they can’t be more open about it. It doesn’t show a lot of integrity.
One thing that baffles me is that is appears that not many of the regular SGM Members know what Calvinism teaches including the possibility that some of their children have no chance of being saved even if their parents do all the right things. Of course as has been said before, SGM Leaders’ actions sometimes contradict their supposedly believing in Calvinism.
I am a man, or so says my wife when forced to admit it. And “Noel” is such a lovely name. And to make matters worse, my physiognomy is not near as lovely, not what one would hope from someone named “Noel.”
Noel,
SGM/PDI’s view of pastoral authority comes from the shepherding movement, which I don’t think defined themselves as reformed. SGM’s use of the word “apostle” is a hangover from their early, more charismatic days, although they re-define the term every few years.
It’s interesting to note that many early PDI leaders who left (possibly) because of PDI’s drift toward their brand of reformed theology still call themselves apostles.
RT asked about my thoughts on Romans 8 & 9.
Glad you didn’t ask me about Romans 7.
If a new believer were to read this before he is “taught” by the elders, he would probably think that he was free and that the law of sin and death no longer condemned him or applied to him. He might even think that he was free to sin but would soon learn the simple truth about how our bodies are ministers of one thing or another and probably wouldn’t persist in this error.
Teachers have been able to disabuse new believers of this notion rather efficiently. The quickest way to do this is to convince the new believer that there really is no NEW covenant; that we are all under one continuous covenant and that sin is an ongoing problem for the believer – both as a behavior and as a point of condemnation. (This is critical to Reformed Theology although I’m not sure which letter of TULIP it fits under).
The sense that God still condemns us (or at least requires our ongoing confession and repentance) fits nicely into the “carnal” mindset although, when I was a preacher, such a message garnered the loudest “amen’s.” For all the bad rap it gets, condemnation is preferred fare for many a church person.
Noel,
Have you studied the “Christus victor” views of the atonement? There is much error that comes from the “penal substitution” theory of the Reformers and SGM crowd.
Check out this absolutely OUTSTANDING article that hits and corrects this issue head on: It is very long, so just check out the first 3 – 4 pages at first. Very intense confrontation.
http://therebelgod.com/cross_intro.shtml
The drama surrounding my dismemberment happened before PDI morphed into its Calvinistic incarnation SGM. I would also lay blame on the connection between this family of churches and the shepherding movement.
I would also like to note that my husband and I noticed a shift when Larry T. left. I believe there was something of a balance when LT and CJM shared power. This power void was quickly filled by CJ creating the Sith Lord we know today.
I am somewhat intrigued by the connection between some legalists and Calvinism. I don’t think SGM theology lines up with 5 point TULIP I think they are zinneas or dandilions or some other sort of species.
Dennis,
You wrote, “Have you studied the “Christus victor” views of the atonement?”
AMEN brother, absolutely, absolutely, AMEN.
Because of SGM’s warped focus on indwelling sin, they have denied their very name of “Sovereign Grace”. They have put their members back under the law - THEIR law. They only extend “grace” to those who follow and obey THEM and their doctrinal understandings and rules.
Here is a quote from the article I mentioned:
“Despite man’s concoctions of what justice “ought to be” the biblical picture of justice is about making things right again, about restoration, about liberation. In the biblical paradigm death is not what “justice requires”, rather death is the enemy that justice conquers through the cross (1 Cor 15:25-26,54-57). Man’s picture of justice is to put people in prison; Jesus’ vision of justice was to release the captives from their prison (Luke 4:18) ”
SGM puts their sinners into an accountabilty prison with a warden to keep watch. They want DISCIPLINE! Not in the Biblical sense of the word, but in their perverted underdstanding. I have seen the saints at SGM crushed under such intense scrutiny and hand cuffing. The SGM police squad feel the freedom to abuse and torture their captors. And the “sinners” feel it is all justified because they ARE “sinners”. I know this very well from first hand experience. I was kicked out of my SGM church twice.
Noel
One point that has been discussed before is that SGM call itself “reformed” but some of its practices aren’t what usually happen in a reformed church. The people that SGM call “elders” aren’t lay people from the congregation but the paid staff. Also I understand that most reformed churches the elders are usually elected.
Apparently SGM likes to call itself reformed for a number of reasons. One is that Mahaney can use that to mingle with the other RBD (Reformed Big Dogs). I wouldn’t say that the group being reformed leads to their problems including the reported spiritual abuse.
Hi GDfSGM,
You are the first person that I have mentioned “Christus victor” to that has even heard of it. It is not talked about very much in the vast majority of churches. I had been a Christian for over 30 years before I first heard about it, and that was through the Internet. Now I am reading everything I can get my hands on about it! It has opened up a whole new world of understanding about Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection. I was shocked at how narrow my understanding of the cross was. And how WRONG my understanding was!
Did God ”SO LOVE” the world, or was God so ticked off and angry with the world. I thought the cross was all about satisfying God’s holy wrath toward sin. Some have called that theory Heavenly child abuse. Why would God need to have Jesus tortured on the cross in order to forgive us? Some have asked, “Did Jesus come to save us from God?”!!!! OH MY! We hear so much about God’s wrath and judement of sin, and so little about His “mercy that endures FOREVER!
Jesus came to save us from sin, death, Satan, and evil! He did not come to save us from God! What a wonderful discovery! For God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only Son! GAVE – not tortured! Jesus ws God’s gift to us, not some cosmic voodoo doll to stick pins in to appease God’s uncontrolled temper!
Let me start with my usual disclaimer:
SMG IS NO MORE REFORMED THAN MY NEIGHBOR’S GOLDFISH.
Steve–I visited Noel’s linked site–definitely not our Noel, but hey! Not bad at all! Great picture! Welcome to SGMrefuge.
I must disagree slightly with some of the take that The Reformed Crowd (since you insist on seeing us a some sort of Soviet Bloc of the church–dang Francis Shaeffer and all those other morons) are the legalists in the American church.
For some time, I was in a Pentecostal community. That was the place where I learned women don’t wear pants, women don’t wear makeup, women don’t work outside the home, women don’t ever teach men or engage with them in spiritual discussions. Men don’t wear shorts (which, I must say, is a great idea in the case of many men), men don’t drink wine or beer, believers use the KJV only, etc. No rock music. No painted fingernails. Women and men don’t sit next to each other unless they are married. (Hey, wait a minute, that sounds a heck of alot like SGM!)
Sounds like legalism to me. I will therefore make this proclamation: all Pentecostal churches are filled and run by legalists.
Funny, found the same thing in an independent Baptist church later.
I know that certainly exists within some reformed churches.
Perhaps I have to redefine my definitions, and not paint with such a broad brush.
I worship in a free place, with passionate people who pour out their lives for the Saviour they love, in service, in worship, in missions, in giving, in love. When we’re not guarding the door against some slimeball wanting to run to Jesus, (we all take turns with that…who knows WHO might slip in if we don’t watch closely) we are busy tutoring the refugees in the complex next door and gathering food and furniture for their families who are fleeing here from Sudan. And I’ve heard that Emmanuel Baptist down the street is a marvelous place of freedom, as is the Episcopal church around the block. People love several Southern Baptist churches in town, (but you have to wear panty hose there, forget it, no way.)
Is it possible we are all speaking from our own experiences in the congregations in which we’ve worshiped?
Dennis and Noel, no legitimate reformed church would say that SGM is in any way reformed. We’ve hashed this out endlessly on this blog.
What if I said I think they’re charismatic. After all, they receive “prophecies” at the mic, they dance in worship, they (many) speak in tongues, they jump up and down alot, they are led by an appointed pastor, and not by congregationally elected….whoops, now they just morphed into an episcopal model…they hold to apostles and a strictly delineated hierarchical polity, they have an approved list of books…whoops, they believe that God is sovereign in electing his people….just slid to the reformed side.
Noel, please forgive me if I misread your tone. I felt, as a believer, condemned by your comments. I see now I was wrong:
“Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.” (And if I replied that Pentecostalism is suited to backwater hicks and uneducated morons, you might agree, since that would be the flip side of your argument? Us academics and intellectuals at one trough, you the humble uneducated and unstudied at the other? Are you insane? All are welcome at the table of grace. The most simple grasp the truth of grace most simply. Pentecostals are uneducated? Steve, whaddya think?)
“The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in. “ Right–which is why we send out thousands of missionaries around the world…looking to guard the kingdom against the random nut job that might try to slip in. Your logic is laughable and fallacious. Perhaps some research is called for rather than ranting? Would you like to stack up the list of Pentecostal missionaries on the field right now and compare it to the number of missionaries who would call themselves reformed?
Whosoever believes in him is saved. Period. Why can’t we just agree to that and get to work, like the missionaries are doing from both sides of the discussion?
I extrapolate that I am the “astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed” from your Christopher H. comment? I’m sorry, are you delusional? Then, you make a blanket and snooty sounding reference to all those: ” inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
I’m assuming you mean Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff, right? No wait, those are simply the major Charismatic /Pentecostal morally bankrupt charletans who ripped off, and continue to do so, thousands of sycophantic followers.
Name the names, don’t try to squirm around them with some humilty-talk. Are you talking about CJ, or about Piper? About Emerson, or about Keller?
“As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.”
What the heck? Why the sarcasm? You might be under some illusion, my brother, that I am SGM? I’m not. I teach a slew of SGM kids and have become enraged by the spiritual abuse and oppression under which they live. I’m simply a Jesus follower, as are you, who rejoices to see a stream of my friends and students walking out into the light from the murky cloud that is SGM.
May I engage in conversation with you on your point 1. “It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. “ I’m sorry, but I believe you are talking about me here? I hold to the reformed traditions, and don’t have to work too hard to get around something as straightforward as Romans 8 and 9–I just read the Word. I hope I am relieved from this pretension soon, and know you hope the same thing.
For example, I simply read Ephesians 1 and take it as truth: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Or in 1 Cor. 1: 8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
I see here a BRAIDED mystery: God predestines, God calls, I hear the mighty word of faith, I receive the Holy Spirit when I believe the gospel of my salvation.
From my point of view: free will.
From his point of view: irresistable grace–a God who has called and saved his people since the original mother-promise in the garden.
This causes me to worship in thankfulness, and to be burdened with the call to share the gospel with the world, to cast the net wide. How do I know for whom the Spirit calls? Why do the free will crowd pray for someone’s salvation, if the Holy Spirit is not involved in the work?
Logically, if you pray for someone’s salvation, you are invoking the work of the Holy Spirit, therefore admitting your winsome spiritual or theological arguments are not sufficient.
If the Holy Spirit must be involved in the saving work of faith and grace, (which you acknowledge when you pray for a loved one to come to faith) and he only shows up if you call on him to become involved in someone’s life, doesn’t that make him at your beck and call, so to speak? And mean as hell, besides, since he wants all to be saved, can do it himself, and chooses NOT TO?
I think you must be sad in this: you believe that it is the Lord’s will for everyone to be saved.
You believe he can work in anyone’s life to draw them to Christ, which is shown by your calling on him to do so in specific cases.
So, if he wants all to be saved, and can do it by working in their lives, why in the world isn’t everyone saved? Could it be because there is a bigger story at work? A story so magnificent and so terrifying that only the Universe-breathing God could possibly understand it?
Concerning “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Could you reference to me the written work you have done to push back the effects of the fall? As a snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believer, making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality, I would welcome the opportunity to read the work you have done in the 21st century, years, decades, centuries, after the reformation brought clarity to the church, to build up the church? I wonder if you stand on the shoulders of scholars of all persuasions, yet contribute little except vitriolic attacks?
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Do you not believe that if the church is here in 450 years, it will not look back to this year, our books, our teachings, and say, “This is good, this is ridiculous, almost had it right here, whoops, check this out?”
You seem as if you would have prefered that we remain chained to Rome, buying indulgences, locked away from the Word that saves, allowing a man to stand between us and God?
Why the fury over the notion of a God who has chosen his people from before time?
Why don’t you rail against the God in the OT? I never hear a peep about his revealed nature there. Did he change his nature? This would imply he was not perfected, not holy. Yet you are not infuriated that he commanded entire peoples to be wiped out, with no chance of salvation offered? Men, women and children killed? What kind of vile monster would do that?
Can’t we just shake hands, and agree that none of us has it right? I couldn’t give a flying Fig Newton that your theology is wrong, your view of God is wrong. Doesn’t bother me in the least. You confess Jesus as Saviour. That is the litmus test. God will work our theologies out by changing you, changing me, changing both of us, whatever. He is high and holy. And well able to deal with family squabbles.
Why then, the emotional raging I sense from your side of the aisle? Why all the hard work you do to either not address passages like Romans, Ephesians, etc.? I fully accept free will–because that is what it seems like on our side of the dusty mirror, and because we are urged in Scripture to place our faith in Jesus. I did so. But I believe, because I take the word plainly, that there is something else going on on the other clear side of the mirror that I simply don’t comprehend. I remember the calling in my heart. I remember the day I heard him. I could not sooner have denied that call than I could have flown. Nothing in the world seemed sweeter to me than Jesus, yet the week before I wouldn’t have given him the time of day.
Let’s talk more about this…on the other side. Won’t be as much fun, though, since we’ll be perfected and in complete agreement. Talking face to face is so much better than contributing to our carpal tunnel issues.
Peace, my brethren.
Romans 5:9
Therefore, since we are now justified ( acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?
Ephesians 2:3
Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
These are only 3 of the 32 times God’s wrath is mentioned in the New Testament.
RT!
Thank you!
I’m done-RT has just said everything I’d like to say (and more, as she’s smarter that I am) on the issue.
Guys, can we take a break and leave our pet doctrines (or hatred of the beliefs of others) at the door for a while? I’m really sick of the tone here lately.
If you’re here to pick a fight, please think twice before you post.
What about Col 1: 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel…
Death on a cross: the most humiliating and horrifyingly painful imaginable. Suffering, sweat, blood, strangulation, stabbing, nails, broken bones, thirst, heat, pain, isolation.
If there was no substitutionary work being done, why didn’t he just blow a dandelion, click his heels together three times, and sing Kum-ba-ya?
Perhaps we should be thinking about this: why is it so important to believe that there was no wrath directed towards us from a holy God which had to be removed from us?
Like Jim said, Isaiah 53, specifically:
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
HOW DO YOU SIMPLY IGNORE SCRIPTURE?
Of course his love for us drove him–to the cross.
How do I approach one who would step in front of me before his father?
With awe, trembling, love, desire, surprise, thankfulness.
Hi Canary,
Do you have Greek Interlinear Bible? Romans 5:9 says that we are saved by Him from indignation and wrath. The “OF GOD” was added by the translators, and is not in the Greek text.
The same is true of Ephesians 2:3. I noticed that you have GOD in brackets. Again, showing it is not in the Greek text.
That leaves Romans 9:22. Can you tell me exactly what “vessels of anger” are?
Jim–not smarter. Just longer-winded.
You used the word “hatred.” That is precisely the thing that has caused me heart-ache here the last couple of weeks. Spot on. Couldn’t put my finger on it before.
This is good for SGMers to see? This helps them see the beauty and freedom out here?
Or does it just make them pull their heads back in and take another sip of the Cherry Kool-aid?
Wow, um, this has been quite the thread lately! I’ve been following it on my iPod Touch while on vacation but tiny on-screen keyboards do not lend themselves to much commenting. Thanks, RT and Jim, for your uber rational posts. Others of you, too, but those are the two that stand out most recently. I think it is tempting for those of us who object to a heavy focus on sin and wrath to run too far to the opposite end of the spectrum in reaction. Watch carefully which new doctrinal door you choose to take refuge behind. It is not necessarily right just because it is different from the one from which you just fled.
~ Vida