Our prayers are with you and our brothers and sisters surrounding you. May God make you aware of His great love for you and may He do the same for those around you on that Sunday. Much grace to the people leading the meeting so that they be sensitive to God’s voice.
Hope — thanks for your comment. The very words “family meeting” fill me with fear and trembling.
Do you know if the general subject matter of the upcoming meeting was announced to the congregation as a whole, or are most going into the meeting without a clue?
I’m glad that the man who has remained silent since the debacle will have his ‘day in court’. I’m glad they’ll have a Q and A session. And I hope that somebody will ask the degifted why the heck he stuck around.
Please, Refugers (not refugees!) — join in praying for this meeting. Thanks.
Hope, Thankyou for clarifying the meetings intent. Joining with Stunned and others to be praying for you there at Kingsway. Much discernment is needed in these “Family Meetings”. Holy Spirit has needed insight to put discerning and significant questions into the hearts of the people —– we pray Redemption that glorifies Jesus Christ (and not an institution or man) will come about.—
Amen! And I pray questions are addressed – not danced around or used for spin.
And I pray that MEN will RISE UP! Not be wooed in the sappy submission that so many have been conditioned in.
The problem is that one has to get away from the confines of SGM to be deprogrammed. When you are still inside, it is hard to see the mistakes being made. Even people who have left will need time to understand what was good and what was not. So, those still in SGM might protest at certain problems they see but will ultimately stand by their leaders, unless they get away long enough to see what has really been happening. I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches.
Chris Wiley – that was awesome. It made me remember that I was “healed” from hurt and abuse in the late 1990′s mostly by seeing this message of the gospel – that our sins are no longer counted against us, that Christ died AS us not just FOR us, that the lustful (and other) thoughts I had were not products of the “old man” but of my flesh and my failures were not a testament against my righteousness because my righteousness was established IN CHRIST ALONE and that I was IN HIM.
I want to add that I was not abused nearly to the extent that I have seen on this forum. And the little I know about the conduct and treatment at MLC, SGM, et al, I was definitely in the “minor leagues” when it comes to mistreatment. I’m willing to stipulate that I mistreated others as much as I was mistreated by others. I’m grateful just to have lots of friends from those days. And my relationship with my former boss/”pastor” is wonderful.
But, looking back, I see the key to the whole thing – Fortunately, I heard messages by James Barron on cassette. Russ and Hazel Parker and Mike and Rocky Beene had introduced me to the teachings. Mike and Rocky ministered to us in our home in Raleigh, NC. I resisted James’ teaching for over a year but kept listening. I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
Seriously Chris, the whole message came crashing in on me one day and it was like the sun shone for the first time. The more I listened and learned, the more I realized that if there ever was a panacea, this was it. Then I recalled scripture verses in a different light – Paul saying that He wanted to only know Christ and Him crucified. The real gospel IS a panacea. It changes everything – even and especially our view of the church and how we are treated in the church.
I clearly remember hearing some of the saints at Tree of Life (we spent a year in Orlando) speak to a fellow believer who had been hurt and wanted to talk about a leader in another church – “Remember that God loves each one of His creatures and those who believe in His Son are just as righteous as you and I are and just as righteous as Christ Himself is. We have no condemnation for any one. They don’t have to believe exactly as we do. They don’t have to see the world as we do. If they believe in Christ – they are righteous in Him. Danny Jones stands as righteous as Christ Himself and as you and I stand.” [I pick on Danny because I know him but have had no conflict or interaction with him. I just think of him as having this big contagious smile from back in 1980. And the fact that he out-married himself.]
This is what frees us to speak the truth to one another – we can be “matter-of-fact” about the whole abuse-within-SGM thing because we are speaking in an environment of grace. We can say “this is bad treatment of the saints” without worrying that we are in sin. Because, our statements are not judgments of righteousness or sin. They are the “truth in love.” And, we have not the slightest judgment for abusers.
Chris, I think you are dead on (bad term I guess) about seeing the message. It will absolutely change everything and set us free from bondage. It will set us free from feeling guilty about leaving a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not even attending a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not performing the outlined program.
In a church where I served for several years, we STRONGLY encouraged people to arise early and have “Prime Time” with God every day. Not even the leaders (except those who were naturally early-risers) could conform but we could all pretend and avoid exposure. But, the folks labored under this pressure and many couldn’t bear up under it. They couldn’t “feel” spiritually vital enough to measure up to this false standard we were holding forth. And so many just wandered away. Right now, that church has “grown” from about 1,100 people at its peak to less than 500. It’s like a preacher told my dad (an overseer of churches for many years), “Brother, my ministry is doing marvelous. This church is going down slower than any I’ve had before.”
The point is – whether the abuse is intense or subtle – the issue is our own minds. Have we seen Christ’s finished work? Have we seen our entry by faith into this realm of grace whereby our sins are no longer counted against us? Do we examine ourselves for sin or for faith?
I heard someone say that we are responsible for everything that we say, do, think and feel. I agreed that I was responsible for my own words, actions and thoughts. I didn’t agree that I was responsible for what I felt. What about the person who hurt me? Weren’t they responsible for my pain? Were they not to be held accountable for what I was feeling? When I thought about it, I realized that I could never be healed from what I felt so long as another person was responsible for it. It’s not easy and I’ve processed only about 5% of my feelings of rejection, hurt, anger, etc.
But, the real power to heal that I have found is believing the gospel and seeing (in an unfolding way) Christ in me and me in Him, Him in the Father, The Father in Him – UNION – unbreakable UNION in Christ. When my mind is trained upon that UNION, I have no fear, I have no overwhelming hurt or pain. I have nothing but rest and confidence. I am distresssed but not crushed, struck down maybe but not destroyed. I feel rest.
I don’t know how I would have handled the sort of abuse that I know many of you guys have experienced. I think that most of you must be stronger than I am. I shudder to think what I might have done under the heavy handed authoritarian leaders that have abused you.
Just think, one day some of these SGM leaders may say “I used to persecute the very church of God, thinking that I was serving God. But, on my way to an SGM conference, God knocked me off of my horse . . . And now I proclaim the marvelous mystery, hidden in God for ages. For had the rulers of the world known this mystery (that Christ’s death would accomplish our union with God) they never would have crucified Him.”
You are welcome. If I am able to say anything that plants or waters a gospel seed, then God’s purpose is served.
PS: I loved your comment on here the other day about people needing to go for a walk, hold a baby, see the beauty of the forest, etc., BEFORE they post. Argumentation is only effective when motivated by love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, or for the lost. “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”. A life lesson we all need to learn more intimately. Continue to enjoy God’s simple blessings!
I have rarely had anyone say that what I said or wrote was “awesome”, but thank you for that kind word. It is a wonderful thing to encounter “kindred spirits” on our journey with Christ, but I believe I can say from reading your posts and from your response to mine, that we are indeed just that.
I loved what you said about an “unbreakable UNION in Christ” as that is what Christ came to earth for, what He died for, and what He sent the Comforter for. “God is faithful, by whom you’ve been called into fellowship (unbreakable union) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor 1:9). God can not have fellowship with darkness (the flesh) and therefore He made us alive together with Christ in the Spirit so that He could have fellowship with us (Spirit to spirit). That is why scripture says “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”. Jesus really does want us to be His friends, not just automaton followers. When you begin to understand this spiritual fact, then “you have the tiger by the tail” as one teacher put it. This reality is where we need to abide, forever. It is the closest thing on earth that we will ever have to Heaven. This union is that “love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” from which nothing will be able to separate us. Praise be to God!
Anyway, I’ve got to go referee a Birthday Party for my twin boys, Ian and Evan, who are turning 9. I think they are battling with the enemy right now but I am afraid someone might get injured by friendly fire.
I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
I had to chuckle a bit at your comment about the the grace preachers. Christian leaders are so afraid to preach grace and freedom. I have had pastors tell me it is dangerous to preach to much grace and freedom. I would laugh — and ask them what is the limit to “lavish” and how free did Christ really make us? -”Jesus came to make us free, free indeed” — Is there a particular amount of law that needs to be preached with grace for balance? Is there a certainly amount of bondage that needs to preached with freedom for balance?
It is grace and freedom that empowers the believer to do great and mighty things as God’s change agents of the world. Our freedom and grace is sealed in the Holy Spirit; we are now His representatives (ambassadors) in the earth.
We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. Way too many Christians identify themselves with their sin, short comings, etc. and that becomes the sum total of their Christian life – trying to overcome sin.
Our identity is in Christ, His righteousness, seated in the heavenlies — part of a chosen race, a holy nation,a royal priesthood and people possessed by God. As we renew our mind with the truth of who Christ and who we are in Him, that becomes the source of our life and liberty. Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin.
“We have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us; and the life which we now live in the flesh we are to live by faith in the son of God, who loves us and gave Himself up for us”
Good (great) News — blessings to all the Refuge brethren.
Irv said, ‘We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. …Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin. ”
I wanted to clarify what I meant when when I said that I do not care what SGM thinks.
I have died to SGM and SGM has died to me. I am no longer in bondage to SGM. SGM has no longer any authority over me whatsoever, and I am no longer their slave, subject to their man made rules, judgements, doctrines, and regulations. I have been set free from SGM and their judgemnts of me and who I am. I will no longer allow myself to be defined by their judgmental criticisms. What wonderful freedom.
Do I want SGM to know the truth and to be set free by that truth – of course. But what their judgements are of me as a person, I could not care less. I am out of that prison, never to return again to that yoke of slavery and bondage. I will stand before the Lord on judgment day, not before SGM. I am accountable to HIM, not to SGM.
The language so frequently heard in Christendom when preachers and pastors speak of those to whom they preach as “my flock” or “my people,” is unscriptural and should be avoided. God’s children do not belong to anybody but the Lord. As the Lord had commissioned Peter: “Feed My sheep,” and “Feed My lambs,” so Peter writes to the elders to tend the flock of God. — Arno Clemens Gaebelein
Hope,
Our prayers are with you and our brothers and sisters surrounding you. May God make you aware of His great love for you and may He do the same for those around you on that Sunday. Much grace to the people leading the meeting so that they be sensitive to God’s voice.
Blessings,
Stunned
Hope — thanks for your comment. The very words “family meeting” fill me with fear and trembling.
Do you know if the general subject matter of the upcoming meeting was announced to the congregation as a whole, or are most going into the meeting without a clue?
I’m glad that the man who has remained silent since the debacle will have his ‘day in court’. I’m glad they’ll have a Q and A session. And I hope that somebody will ask the degifted why the heck he stuck around.
Please, Refugers (not refugees!) — join in praying for this meeting. Thanks.
Hope, Thankyou for clarifying the meetings intent. Joining with Stunned and others to be praying for you there at Kingsway. Much discernment is needed in these “Family Meetings”. Holy Spirit has needed insight to put discerning and significant questions into the hearts of the people —– we pray Redemption that glorifies Jesus Christ (and not an institution or man) will come about.—
Amen! And I pray questions are addressed – not danced around or used for spin.
And I pray that MEN will RISE UP! Not be wooed in the sappy submission that so many have been conditioned in.
The problem is that one has to get away from the confines of SGM to be deprogrammed. When you are still inside, it is hard to see the mistakes being made. Even people who have left will need time to understand what was good and what was not. So, those still in SGM might protest at certain problems they see but will ultimately stand by their leaders, unless they get away long enough to see what has really been happening. I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches.
“I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches. ”
I love you Canary.
You make me laugh.
yeah, cuz up close, all those trees look alike!! ;o)
Love you, too, Defenders!
Chris Wiley – that was awesome. It made me remember that I was “healed” from hurt and abuse in the late 1990′s mostly by seeing this message of the gospel – that our sins are no longer counted against us, that Christ died AS us not just FOR us, that the lustful (and other) thoughts I had were not products of the “old man” but of my flesh and my failures were not a testament against my righteousness because my righteousness was established IN CHRIST ALONE and that I was IN HIM.
I want to add that I was not abused nearly to the extent that I have seen on this forum. And the little I know about the conduct and treatment at MLC, SGM, et al, I was definitely in the “minor leagues” when it comes to mistreatment. I’m willing to stipulate that I mistreated others as much as I was mistreated by others. I’m grateful just to have lots of friends from those days. And my relationship with my former boss/”pastor” is wonderful.
But, looking back, I see the key to the whole thing – Fortunately, I heard messages by James Barron on cassette. Russ and Hazel Parker and Mike and Rocky Beene had introduced me to the teachings. Mike and Rocky ministered to us in our home in Raleigh, NC. I resisted James’ teaching for over a year but kept listening. I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
Seriously Chris, the whole message came crashing in on me one day and it was like the sun shone for the first time. The more I listened and learned, the more I realized that if there ever was a panacea, this was it. Then I recalled scripture verses in a different light – Paul saying that He wanted to only know Christ and Him crucified. The real gospel IS a panacea. It changes everything – even and especially our view of the church and how we are treated in the church.
I clearly remember hearing some of the saints at Tree of Life (we spent a year in Orlando) speak to a fellow believer who had been hurt and wanted to talk about a leader in another church – “Remember that God loves each one of His creatures and those who believe in His Son are just as righteous as you and I are and just as righteous as Christ Himself is. We have no condemnation for any one. They don’t have to believe exactly as we do. They don’t have to see the world as we do. If they believe in Christ – they are righteous in Him. Danny Jones stands as righteous as Christ Himself and as you and I stand.” [I pick on Danny because I know him but have had no conflict or interaction with him. I just think of him as having this big contagious smile from back in 1980. And the fact that he out-married himself.]
This is what frees us to speak the truth to one another – we can be “matter-of-fact” about the whole abuse-within-SGM thing because we are speaking in an environment of grace. We can say “this is bad treatment of the saints” without worrying that we are in sin. Because, our statements are not judgments of righteousness or sin. They are the “truth in love.” And, we have not the slightest judgment for abusers.
Chris, I think you are dead on (bad term I guess) about seeing the message. It will absolutely change everything and set us free from bondage. It will set us free from feeling guilty about leaving a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not even attending a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not performing the outlined program.
In a church where I served for several years, we STRONGLY encouraged people to arise early and have “Prime Time” with God every day. Not even the leaders (except those who were naturally early-risers) could conform but we could all pretend and avoid exposure. But, the folks labored under this pressure and many couldn’t bear up under it. They couldn’t “feel” spiritually vital enough to measure up to this false standard we were holding forth. And so many just wandered away. Right now, that church has “grown” from about 1,100 people at its peak to less than 500. It’s like a preacher told my dad (an overseer of churches for many years), “Brother, my ministry is doing marvelous. This church is going down slower than any I’ve had before.”
The point is – whether the abuse is intense or subtle – the issue is our own minds. Have we seen Christ’s finished work? Have we seen our entry by faith into this realm of grace whereby our sins are no longer counted against us? Do we examine ourselves for sin or for faith?
I heard someone say that we are responsible for everything that we say, do, think and feel. I agreed that I was responsible for my own words, actions and thoughts. I didn’t agree that I was responsible for what I felt. What about the person who hurt me? Weren’t they responsible for my pain? Were they not to be held accountable for what I was feeling? When I thought about it, I realized that I could never be healed from what I felt so long as another person was responsible for it. It’s not easy and I’ve processed only about 5% of my feelings of rejection, hurt, anger, etc.
But, the real power to heal that I have found is believing the gospel and seeing (in an unfolding way) Christ in me and me in Him, Him in the Father, The Father in Him – UNION – unbreakable UNION in Christ. When my mind is trained upon that UNION, I have no fear, I have no overwhelming hurt or pain. I have nothing but rest and confidence. I am distresssed but not crushed, struck down maybe but not destroyed. I feel rest.
I don’t know how I would have handled the sort of abuse that I know many of you guys have experienced. I think that most of you must be stronger than I am. I shudder to think what I might have done under the heavy handed authoritarian leaders that have abused you.
Just think, one day some of these SGM leaders may say “I used to persecute the very church of God, thinking that I was serving God. But, on my way to an SGM conference, God knocked me off of my horse . . . And now I proclaim the marvelous mystery, hidden in God for ages. For had the rulers of the world known this mystery (that Christ’s death would accomplish our union with God) they never would have crucified Him.”
Hallelujah!
Chris Wiley — thanks for sharing your insights.
Noel,
Hallelujah! The real gospel is truly GOOD NEWS! I think your post should be canonized. Oops, that’s right, it already has been!
Thanks for taking the time to articulate it so well.
Square Peg,
You are welcome. If I am able to say anything that plants or waters a gospel seed, then God’s purpose is served.
PS: I loved your comment on here the other day about people needing to go for a walk, hold a baby, see the beauty of the forest, etc., BEFORE they post. Argumentation is only effective when motivated by love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, or for the lost. “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”. A life lesson we all need to learn more intimately. Continue to enjoy God’s simple blessings!
Resting in Christ,
Chris
Noel,
I have rarely had anyone say that what I said or wrote was “awesome”, but thank you for that kind word. It is a wonderful thing to encounter “kindred spirits” on our journey with Christ, but I believe I can say from reading your posts and from your response to mine, that we are indeed just that.
I loved what you said about an “unbreakable UNION in Christ” as that is what Christ came to earth for, what He died for, and what He sent the Comforter for. “God is faithful, by whom you’ve been called into fellowship (unbreakable union) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor 1:9). God can not have fellowship with darkness (the flesh) and therefore He made us alive together with Christ in the Spirit so that He could have fellowship with us (Spirit to spirit). That is why scripture says “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”. Jesus really does want us to be His friends, not just automaton followers. When you begin to understand this spiritual fact, then “you have the tiger by the tail” as one teacher put it. This reality is where we need to abide, forever. It is the closest thing on earth that we will ever have to Heaven. This union is that “love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” from which nothing will be able to separate us. Praise be to God!
Anyway, I’ve got to go referee a Birthday Party for my twin boys, Ian and Evan, who are turning 9. I think they are battling with the enemy right now but I am afraid someone might get injured by friendly fire.
Good Night and God Bless,
Chris
NOEL -
I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
I had to chuckle a bit at your comment about the the grace preachers. Christian leaders are so afraid to preach grace and freedom. I have had pastors tell me it is dangerous to preach to much grace and freedom. I would laugh — and ask them what is the limit to “lavish” and how free did Christ really make us? -”Jesus came to make us free, free indeed” — Is there a particular amount of law that needs to be preached with grace for balance? Is there a certainly amount of bondage that needs to preached with freedom for balance?
It is grace and freedom that empowers the believer to do great and mighty things as God’s change agents of the world. Our freedom and grace is sealed in the Holy Spirit; we are now His representatives (ambassadors) in the earth.
We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. Way too many Christians identify themselves with their sin, short comings, etc. and that becomes the sum total of their Christian life – trying to overcome sin.
Our identity is in Christ, His righteousness, seated in the heavenlies — part of a chosen race, a holy nation,a royal priesthood and people possessed by God. As we renew our mind with the truth of who Christ and who we are in Him, that becomes the source of our life and liberty. Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin.
“We have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us; and the life which we now live in the flesh we are to live by faith in the son of God, who loves us and gave Himself up for us”
Good (great) News — blessings to all the Refuge brethren.
Irv,
Well said.
This does not tempt me to sin. The truth has the opposite effect on me.
Irv said, ‘We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. …Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin. ”
A- and ah,MEN!
Hi Jim,
I wanted to clarify what I meant when when I said that I do not care what SGM thinks.
I have died to SGM and SGM has died to me. I am no longer in bondage to SGM. SGM has no longer any authority over me whatsoever, and I am no longer their slave, subject to their man made rules, judgements, doctrines, and regulations. I have been set free from SGM and their judgemnts of me and who I am. I will no longer allow myself to be defined by their judgmental criticisms. What wonderful freedom.
Do I want SGM to know the truth and to be set free by that truth – of course. But what their judgements are of me as a person, I could not care less. I am out of that prison, never to return again to that yoke of slavery and bondage. I will stand before the Lord on judgment day, not before SGM. I am accountable to HIM, not to SGM.
“He that the Lord has set free, is free indeed.”