This is little Charlie weighing in on We are Fam ill lee…..Now whats posted here must remain here and not be spoken about or discussed out side of this little box. You see thats what sick families do. They don’t reach outside for the help they need. They just put pressure and weights on their own, to keep the special little secrets. But some how they come out….don’t they.
If you are in a Sovereign Grace church. I don’t trust you. I don’t believe you. Mathew 18…it won’t work for me this time….It’s not been quite a year yet, but Danny still did not get back to me. I guess what I had to say didn’t matter as much as the current mud slide at Metro.
My investment is still family. Jim, your opening line, it broke my heart. Thanks for the exposure. I feel safe here. Charlie
Here is a brief recap of the main topics of the meeting…
Updates on changes made in response to the assessment team’s findings
The leadership team’s improved ability to work together
The pastors’ efforts to meet with every member who has concerns or critiques
An encouragement to godly communication and peacemaking within the church
Update on the sports ministry by Jesse (parents more involved, staff not as involved)
Report on finances, administration & scheduling by Chip
The situation with MN
Church polity (will still be led by staff elders, with input from congregation)
Metro Life’s relationship with SGM (a voluntary tie, not a legally binding one)
After this, there was a Q & A time in which several people presented questions or comments. The questions and answers were all cordially given — no raised voices or angry words. The entire meeting lasted nearly 2 hours.
For those who are interested in apologies, may I quote Danny in response to the situation with MN… His exact words are in quote marks. I was writing as fast as I could, so obviously I didn’t catch every word, thus the broken up sentences. All told I took about 17 pages of notes.
The timing of the announcement on a Sunday morning with children present “was not very helpful” and “caused a lot of concern… I understand now.” “I regret that. With God’s help, I’ll never do it again.” He acknowledged that it made it “difficult for the N— family” and “caused speculation.” He met with each member of the N— family to hear how it had affected them personally and is trying to make amends.
On the perception that MN was “under church discipline” Danny clarified to say that this was “never intended to be punitive” and that the words “evaluation and discipline” referred only to a time to seek God, think about what has happened, study what it means to manage his household well, get counsel, etc. MN is still a pastor and is still receiving pay, but he has been given several weeks off from pastoral duties (such as counseling and preaching) so he and his family can have time to think/talk/recover. He is still doing his regular administrative duties (children’s ministry, prayer meeting, etc.) Danny said about the miscommunication: “I sincerely apologize. I don’t have any excuses. The mistake was mine. It proved to be a lack of wisdom. I lament that.” And, “It broke my heart… It is something I’ve been very saddened by.” He also said that there has been “no backtracking or changing stance.”
Over all, I was mostly pleased with the meeting, which answered some questions for me. Last month, I have had lengthy face to face conversations with two of the pastors about my personal issues and concerns. I feel like they listened well and were gracious, even when I said things that were quite unpleasant for them to hear. We didn’t exactly come to an agreement on anything, but at least we heard each other out.
I know some people on Refuge are probably frustrated with me that I am still at MLC (for now) and still calling for peace and civility on the blog. At the same time, some people at MLC are frustrated with me that I even post here at all and that I have consistently been raising concerns about doctrinal and SGM issues over the past several months. I know I can’t please anyone all of the time, or everyone even some of the time. What I’m really trying to do is please God with speaking TRUTH with LOVE and without FEAR. I feel like I don’t have to be strident to be strong.
And yes, Jim, we ARE family, along with the rest of Christ’s body. There are so many dear people at MLC and so many dear people here on Refuge. We’ve all got a lot to learn!
“Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.” 2 Thessalonians 3:16
It’s one of the core things that SGM requires of it’s family of churches. Someone asked that last night, and Danny confirmed what we’ve all known already. He took quite a bit of time explaining the 3 types of church government and all SGM churches must adhere to their version of the Presbyterian form.
Presbyterian form? They have always said in teh past that they have an episcopalian form, which is what they have. Their church polity is nothing like a presbyterian form.
As I understand it, Episcopal form has a bishop in authority over the church. SGM does not have this. The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity. (I sound like the couple farming mud in Monty Python and the Holy Grail).
“Authority in the presbyterian polity flows both from the top down (as higher assemblies exercise authority over individual congregations) and from the bottom up (as all officials ultimately owe their elections to individual church members). ”
I don’t see a “bottom up” in SGM. Also, the Presbyterian form of government (at least PCA) in the local church is made of ruling elders consisting primarily of elected members of the congregation. My pastor’s take is that he doesn’t like being ruled by the elders, because he doesn’t always get his way, but he could not imagine being pastor without them.
Church polity (will still be led by staff elders, with input from congregation)
Metro Life’s relationship with SGM (a voluntary tie, not a legally binding one)
A good test for this one is for the leadership to announce to SGM that they are pulling out of SGM family of churches. How do you pull out of ‘the’ family? Yes they willing and voluntarily joined PDI/SGM but you cannot voluntarily depart SGM. It isn’t the local leadership but the extra-local authority that make those decisions.
There are several of us that would dispute that claim.
It is good Danny was remorseful for the Sunday morning meeting for the N family. (Still, the lack of wisdom and obvious discernment in that action is quite alarming).
Probably no changes in polity since Metro abides by the sgm polity structure. Therein, is another kettle of fish, so to speak.
Did they address, or anyone ask, about the unequal treatment of pastors (DJ and MN) in regards to being held responsible for adult childrens transgressions?
As WW pointed out, the PCA form of government is made of ruling elders consisting primarily of ELECTED MEMBERS of the congregation. This would be an extremely wide margin of difference in what sgm deems is the “Presbyterian Form” of church governance.
Do you think they recognize their destructive control and manipulation towards Gods people, as they abide by the sgm (arrogant) pastoral-laity divide??
……….and then there is the time frame of watching what type of fruit comes forth
(since Jesus said we will know them by their fruit). Praying for the members in MLC
as they process,discern,seek,pray………….
Presbyterian – Indeed. If SGM is presbyterian in church government, then we all are the knights that say “ni”. A comment like that (DJ on polity) will likely make PKnight roll over in his grave. O wait, he’s still alive …
Waters, there was some discussion during Q & A about the situation a few years ago with DJ’s son JJ. The question was whether DJ should be held accountable for this situation because JJ was under his direct supervision as youth pastor for several years, even if he had been out of the home for 10 years. The answer is that no one had any clue at all that this kind of behavior was happening then, so they couldn’t have done anything about it — as BP said, “Accountability is only as good as the honesty of the individuals.” Even his wife didn’t know. JJ himself got up and said a number of things, including, ”My sin was horrid,” and “The decisions I made were my decisions. Please don’t hold them responsible for what I did,” and “I’m a testimony of God’s grace.” I can say amen to that. I really respect him for doing that. I have seen a huge difference in him and so have many others. In the case of MN’s son, it was acknowledged earlier that people had been bringing their concerns about his behavior for quite a while — there were outward warning signals of trouble. Of course, hindsight is 20/20.
I don’t think there is really a huge difference in how this was handled as far as the direct ramifications on DJ and MN as pastors. I think DJ had a worse humiliation factor from the start. What happened completely shocked everyone since it had never happened before in the history of our church. We’re still feeling the consequences, especially among the youth who had looked up to him. Even if it wasn’t called out as a “season of evaluation and discipline,” DJ took ample time back then to reflect on the problem, get abundant and extended counsel from the other pastors and from Dave Harvey, and deal with the painful consequences. Perhaps it is his own experience which made it so sensible to give the same opportunity to MN to take time out.
Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential. The advisory committees (finances, sports ministry, etc.) do not have any governance over the pastors. Danny has communicated to me clearly in a personal meeting that MLC makes no apologies for its polity and has no intentions to change it. They understand why other church groups do it differently, but this is how they see it from their own study of the Bible. I can respect that, even if I wish it would work better at MLC. He said that church polity is one essential area in which all SGM churches must agree as they are planted or adopted. In response to a question later, he said that an example of an area in which SGM churches may differ is the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the functioning of the gifts. Some churches are more visibly charismatic in their outlook and style. He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.
I hope these comments are helpful to all on both sides of the varoius conflicts within MLC and SGM. I am trying to stick to the facts of what was said without too much of my own commentary.
”The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity. ”
REALLY? So BP voluntarily put himself in Pastors College? And K. Jacob and D. Bendinelli volutarily left their posts and weren’t fired by Shank et al?
Did the congregation really believe that?
Jim, I’m so proud of you and your work, on and offline, and I believe a good part of the confession(s) made last night had your fingerprints all over it. For God’s reputation.
Thanks Vita, for the update.
I sure would like to know if anybody tried to hold the leadership to scripture, and if so how Danny & co. responded.
Ya know, I am sitting here thinking about your report, and the time I came back from a meeting with KJ, and when asked by my wife “How’d it go?” I replied “Oh pretty good.”
It was early on in our SGM problems, and I still could not believe that a pastor, (an SGM pastor) could possibly be as evil as it turned out he actually was.
Looking back, it was like having temporary insanity.
I don’t want to put a cloud on your report, it’s just that I won’t be surprised if Danny & Co later disproves your “good feelings” about this meeting.
Someday soon perhaps.
It will continue until people stop “believing the best” in these guys, and hold them to their words in the light of Scripture.
Until then the sheep will continue to be slaughtered and eaten.
Please don’t tell me that Danny used the word “Presbyterian”. This is EXACTLY like using the word “discipline” and then saying, “I didn’t mean discipline in that way.”
Danny, these are commonly used words which bear a common understanding.
The idea that a pastor should be held accountable for the actions of his 23-year-old son is completely ridiculous and is one of the things that drives me nuts about sg.
Once a church is “in the family”, they can’t get out. It’s only happened one time that I know of – the Ohio church back in the mid 90s. If pastors aren’t going along with the SGM line, they’ll be replaced with those that do. All this talk of the local churches not being legally tied to SGM is an illusion.
I wonder, who legally holds the title for each church? If the pastors decide to sell property owned by “the church” and donate most of it to SGM (missions, donchaknow?), WHO is going to stop them? They can sell the church property and the members can go back to meeting at local schools and motel conference rooms if that is what SGM wants them to do and there isn’t a thing the membership can do, because members have no legal right to say ANYTHING. The sad thing is, most members would think that it was all God’s will that their leadership would do something like this.
All this about being a family of churches and each church is local and financially independent is an illusion. It’s all smoke and mirrors. SGM is a business, your “local church” is a franchise, plain and simple.
It looks like things are going to get better at MLC. And that is what i prayed for the Lord to do so im happy. Also too Vida and all the others that attended MLC, I think its great that you are staying and trying to work through this painful time. I also have been going through a ton of stuff at my new church!!!! Not a SGM church, But i believe God placed me there for a reason so i struggle on praying every step of the way. Every church is going to be attacked by the enemy. Sometimes its outside but most of the time its inside. We are our greatest enemies to eachother. Anyways keep up the Good Work and I will continue praying for all of you.
Collateral – July 8th 3:05 PM (I sound like the couple farming mud in Monty Python and the Holy Grail).
Listen, strange women lyin’ in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
(OK, back to the serious side of this blog)
Ellie – you may be correct in your remembrance of the church in Ohio. I was thinking of Ken R. as one of the churches on my list of one who left PDI under unpleasant circumstances but it may have been more amicable than I remember. The Cleveland church was a flagship church originally planted by Larry and then Steve. It was years after they left that anyone talked about it. Because no one mentioned it in a public setting I don’t think it was a very good thing for PDI. But I have to be honest I can’t remember the details. I certainly will trust your perspective.
here’s a post from last year by a former North Coast Church member:
<b>Dear Jim and Carole and Regular Contributors,
Wow – I just came across this website recently. I didnt know anything like this existed. Thanks for all you do to help those who have been hurt and disillusioned in SGM churches.
My story is dated now and my wife and I have long since moved on from PDI/SGM. But we still sometimes talk about the great work the Lord started in Cleveland, Ohio through PDI, and how disappointing that we all weren’t able to sustain it.
North Coast Church was one of PDI’s first church plants</b> [***see my note below concerning church planting***] <b>in Cleveland, Ohio . Larry and Doris T and a small team came to Larry’s hometown to start a church in the southwest suburbs. My wife was one of the first locals to join up, and she and some of the other single women were discipled by Doris T while Larry worked with the men. Within a few years, the church had almost 1000 members and was one of the most influential churches in NE Ohio. When I joined in 1984, Steve S was the senior pastor and the church was clearly thriving. Larry T. still visited often and his sister and her husband were influential members. The church was made up of mostly young marrieds and hundreds of committed singles. Many singles such as my wife and I lived in singles households. I grew up in a large unchurched family, and my brothers and sisters were amazed at the number of friends we all had. We were convinced we were at the center of what the Lord was doing in Cleveland.
But there were problems behind the scenes. The first Sunday I attended, one of the four pastors announced that he was stepping down from leadership. Steve S said that this pastor needed more time to work on his marriage and his calling. The pastor did not seem to agree, as he said the Lord was calling him to Canada. Steve S said the other pastors could not lay hands on him and bless his decision.
Soon after, the church announced a new plant in Akron (about an hour south of Cleveland) . Another of the four pastors was sent out to lead that church. But in less than a year the pastor was gone and disillusioned. There is still a SGM church in Akron today, but it has never really grown much after 20 years.
Steve S handed off the church to the third pastor, Ken R, in 1985 , and headed off to Virginia Beach to start another PDI work. But Steve and Ken did not see eye-to-eye, and eventually Steve and Dave H asked Ken to step down as senior pastor. Ken R did not agree, and the majority of the pastoral team backed Ken. So in 1994 , the members of NCC received a letter from Ken and the pastors stating that our church was ending its relationship with PDI becuase of doctrinal and leadership differences. Many people such as my wife and I were hurt and confused, and there was no real explanation from either our church or from PDI.
After much prayer, my wife and I decided to leave North Coast Church and started attending the closest PDI church in Akron. Many others left, many stayed at NCC, but long-time friendships were severed. If any of you have experienced a church split, you know how wrenching that can be.
We and many others appealed to Dave H to please not abandon a PDI vision for Cleveland. Enough of us called that Dave agreed to come and meet with us. Several hundred people came to the meeting at a hotel with Dave H and Steve S . People hugged and cried and believed God would raise up another great church in Cleveland. But Dave and Steve had a list of criteria before a church could be planted. There would need to be a commitment of support , and the PDI leadership would need to pray about whether they could support a new plant. We were told to wait and pray. Many of us did both, but it was almost 2 years before a decision to plant a Cleveland church was made. Most of the several hundred people at the original meeting, including my wife and I, had moved on to other churches by that time. We eventually left the Akron church because it was too far, and floundered for a few years, but today we are happily plugged in to a CMA church.
I wish the story had a better ending. North Coast Church also suffered after leaving PDI. The name changed, Ken R eventually left, and today it has only a few hundred attenders. The Cleveland SGM church today, like the one in Akron, has remained small without a permanent church building.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the failures here in Cleveland. Leadership could not stay united, and most of us saints did not have the faith to perservere when our world was shaken. But I cant help wonder why the PDI team didn’t see hundreds of people showing up on a winter night from just word of mouth as a clear sign that the Lord still had work for them in Cleveland. And I also wonder why the PDI/SGM and NCC leadership couldn’t work together to save a great church.
But praise the Lord that He is faithful , even when we are weak! Today there are many strong and growing churches in Cleveland. And almost everyone one of them has a few ex NCC members on the road to full healing.
Thanks for reading this long and rambling post.
Blessings to you all!</b>
And then there’s this posted on the old Survivors’ message board:
<b>“In June of 1997, the North Coast Church in Ohio terminated their relationship with the PDI (which turned into Sovereign Grace Ministries on September 1, 2002). Their “apostolic” overseers claimed that the member church did not have the spiritual authority to leave the “family of churches, but the pastoral staff at North Coast differed with that opinion.
Of concern to North Coast were, among others, the apostolic team’s recent focus and strong stand regarding reformation Theology and elements of Calvinism, their exclusiveness with regards to other churches outside of PDI, a variety of issues with the concept of apostles, and the limiting of women from certain areas of ministry and the workplace.</b>
Opps, North Coast wasn’t the only church to leave, I just found this that Gracie posted last year:
<b>The saga of the Cleveland church sounds somewhat similar to the Atlanta church. PDI wanted to discipline the senior pastor for a season while he took a sabbatical. The pastor saw that more was afoot (like losing his church and job) and refused to cooperate. The church pulled out of PDI affiliation, causing a painful church split. Larry T. was sent to pick up the PDI pieces, but shortly thereafter was himself removed. We were not involved in the Atlanta PDI church at all, but have many dear friends who went through that whole season.</b>
***PDI/sgm didn’t plant North Coast. It was an existing fellowship before PDI showed up.
From the WorldView Community Church (formerly known as North Coast) website:
<b>“WorldView Community Church began as a group of 12 people meeting together in a home in Brunswick, Ohio in 1980. By 1981, this flourishing congregation had grown to 100 members and began to meet in a local elementary school. Because of the increase of membership, additional pastoral leadership from a church in Washington, D.C. relocated to the area to provide support.”</b>
I think most of the churches that they “planted” were fellowships that were taken over because they “needed guidance”. In my opinion, SGM is still doing the same thing – only now they call it “adopting churches”.
Okay, if they said they were Presbyterian i am astounded. First of all becuase I used to attend Cov LIfe and have known many of the pastors and they have always said that their church government is modeled on the espicopalian model. I think it might even talk about that in the polity book. And beleive me they do have bishops – they just call them apostles and they have the authority to demote and move pastors without the consent of the congregation. And to say they are Presbyterian is a joke, there is nothing presbyterian about their form of government, Presbyterian is all built on checks and balances, which there are none in SGM. And the congregation has ultimate authority in most things, especially in choosing officers including elders, deacons and pastors – they all have to be voted and approved by the conrgegation if they are to have any authority over the conregation (the only exception is assistant (not associate) pastors who are called by the session and are not part of the session.) There are procedures in all the church bylaws to even bring about an elecetion for a pastor wihtout the session’s consent. And everything can be appealed in a normally open court case and taken up to higher and higher levels, not done behind closed doors like at SGM.
Episcopal form has a bishop in authority over the church. SGM does not have this. The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity.
Ha. Hahahaha.
Pass the barf bucket.
CeeJay is the Pope, he speaks ex cathedra and is the voice of God, and the local pastors smile cheerfully and obey, or get degifted.
DJ can stand up and say (quoting from CD, not DJ): ‘The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity.’
On paper it certainly is autonomous in practice, but if CJ or DH drop by and tells the elders that DJ is being de-gifted, is anyone really going to stop it, or even question him about it?
Presbyterian, Thankyou for outlining the significant strong-points of the true Presbyterian form . (and maybe since sgm is “essetially” Reformed they can say they are “kinda” Presbyterian and thus omit the congregational voice and decisions).
Vida reported DJ explaining to MLC: “A plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home-group leaders, and ministry leaders. Major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding and that every member has a voice and is essential.”— That SOUNDS so good–so right—so safe————IS it true???? Has it been true???? Will it be true for the future??
sgm now addresses pastors as elders. So when we hear ‘elder’ we must remember they are speaking of their ‘elders’, the pastors, their “plurality of local elders” is their local pastoral board. NO congregational elders,with a voice representing the congregants exists.
In 19 years we never heard of any “major pending decisions”—only decisions after they were made. Pastors were suddenly set aside as it had been determined they were “not gifted pastorally”. We were definitely quietly led for years int0 Calvinistic doctrine and church structure without them declaring they were going that way. In Chesapeake, KB spent many months,alongside an attorney, drawing up the ‘new doctrine’ declaring there could be no separation in a troubled marriage, with the consequence of church discipline and ex-communication for those who disobeyed. Jeff Purswell aided him in this. Thanks to the “3 Couples” this document was stopped. (Iwonder, though, have they instituted insidiously behind the scenes?)..
I agree with what Defender alluded to —they say one thing, and do another.
That “every member has a voice and is essential”. ?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Every member has a voice—so not to be charged with sin and pride when a concern is brought to the pastor/elder but really valued and heard???? Or pastor/elder listen but its apparent they don’t really hear you??
As DJ made it crystal clear—they are a part of sgm and the sgm polity. They donot see that their polity is the source of control, manipulation,life-lessness,mauling, etc etc
The polity structure thrives on the great chasm between pastor and laity. It is what it is.
WW-good point RE paper vs practice. This needs to watched to see how it plays out.
Waters-one of my favorite phrases-it is what it is.
I had a conversation last night that caused me to take my temperature. I have great hope for reconciliation between beaten sheep and shepherds with sticks, as I’m seeing it occur.
I have zero hope for reform. SGM is digging in their heels. They are pastors, and you are not.
The divide is huge and will not change. It is what it is.
SGM is somewhat Presbyterian in its form of government? What’s that mean? They have a bunch of middle aged white men in charge? OK, I see that. But that’s about it. I grew up Presbyterian. I was part of my churches efforts to NOMINATE and ELECT those who helped run the church. That DOESN’T happen in any SGM church. My sister has been married to a Presbyterian minister for 30+ years. To this day, their form of church government is NOTHING like that in SGM.
If they get to say that they have a form that is similar to the Presbyterian form of government and be believed (and have people act like this is true) then I’d like to borrow the house keys and car keys from those same people while also “borrowing” their children to do some light housework for me while I take over your home. I’ll also be borrowing your bank accounts and your PIN numbers, using up to the tune of one billion dollars. You can trust me with this all. I’m the son of a wealthy African king and will have all the diamonds in the world to pay you back.
Now if you don’t believe me without more evidence, why would you believe these guys with your family’s lives? (And what I mean by that snarky remark is to please learn about Presbyterian governance for youself and then compare it to what you see at SGM and see if they are telling you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or if they are more like the episcopalian structure or not. if they are, why would they not tell you that truth?)
Waters said, “In 19 years we never heard of any “major pending decisions”—only decisions after they were made.”
Ditto that for my 15 years there.
This is not a personal attack on anyone, but I am going to say the gloves are off on my comments.
Vida: in re: your 7/8 comment at 5:04pm: “Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
What drives me crazy about DJ’s irresponsible Presbyterian paralleling is that members of the flock will adopt that and start telling people that. I’ve seen it happen, and I’ve even participated in foolish mimicry of this nature, God forgive me.
Here’s the problem, and it is reflected in the noncommittal statement of DJ saying SGM “sort of” has a polity sort of like the sort of Presby-sort of-terians…sort of:
SGM wants to have its cake and it eat it too in regard to polity. They will not, will not, WILL NOT identify themselves with any polity structure, even comparatively, and their refusal to lay it out clearly characterizes the whimsically superior ”it’s all about relationships” nature of it that has gone on for three plus decades. SGM churches are about as Presbyterian as Earth is similar to Jupiter. They are both planets (denominations), but the similarities cosmically end there, not to mention they are 900 million kilometers apart from each other.
Sovereign Grace Ministries exercises a downhill-running, pyramid-shaped organizational hierarchy with bishopric authority. It then slaps evangelical labels onto it, plain and simple. SGM can call it anything they want to, but if it looks like a goose, acts like a goose, runs around in a goose pen and honks like a goose, it’s a goose, beloved. Calling it an eagle means re-defining the meaning of words, which is silly on the low end and sloppy on the high end of discussion.
I don’t care how mean any of this sounds, but something needs to be made very clear to any SGM member or pastor running around saying SGM has something close to a Presbyterian form of polity: rubbing elbows in the t4G realm with guys like RC and Ligon does NOT make you anything remotely like a Presbyterian. You may be brothers and sisters in Christ with them, but don’t ever crib the label Presbyterian and try to paste it into anything remotely SGM, because the practices of your church bear little to no resemblance to theirs.
Do your due diligence in terms of examining a Presbyterian form of government–dust off Grudem’s Systematic Theology and go to p. 926. SGM isn’t on the same planet as the Presbytery. Thumb back to p. 924 and examine the Episcopalian form of polity, and you start to get somewhere in the amalgamated neighborhood of SGM. I say amalgamated because a dizzying exchange and mishmash of Catholic, Evangelical, and Reformed words/offices/systems takes place.
Bishops are instead Apostles/Regional leaders/whatever, Rectors become Senior Pastors, and so forth. This is incessantly thrown into a blender with phrases like “getting the gospel right, gospel-centered ______, biblical_____,” and the result is a system that at best exudes and at worst believes itself to be the most authentic form of Christianity and the most accurate form of Christ’s church, in particular.
The comment “…major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential,” is, from my point of view, complete and utter fiction. In 22 plus years of being in SGM across three churches, I never witnessed anything of the sort.
Meetings are not “confirmations,” but pep rallies in regard to these things, and as far as any major decisions, it’s kept within the tenuous realm of elders. And one could seriously argue that in many instances this realm is a group of yes-men responding to the senior pastor. “Every member has a voice” means have an agreeable voice or have a private meeting regarding your disruptive or bad or unbiblical un-gospel-centered or not-getting-the-gospel-right attitude.
Buttressing leadership’s high view of itself, I think of Jay’s comment in the Moving On section, July 8, 2010 at 1:15pmt: “SGMer [said]: ‘You know, scripture shows clearly only Apostles/leaders are to go on mission trips. After all we don’t read of the non-leadership going on mission trips.’”
I don’t care if the SGMer who said this to Jay is in the minority in regard to SGM flock members who run around supermarkets saying things like this to ex-SGMers; he got it from somewhere in his discussions with leaders and other members in SGM regarding this, and shame on the lot of them for making such an unjustifiably huge assertion on who is and who isn’t called into the mission field.
The systemic centrism of SGM leadership knows no bounds in its pride and arrogance that it transfers to its flock…and my heart is breaking–no joke, I weep as I write this–for them and those they are charged to care for. I don’t see myself as superior to any brother or sister in SGM…ever. But I do grieve that this gulf between leaders and sheep is so deep and so wide.
“On the perception that MN was “under church discipline” Danny clarified to say that this was “never intended to be punitive” and that the words “evaluation and discipline” referred only to a time to seek God, think about what has happened, study what it means to manage his household well, get counsel, etc.”
Being under “church discipline” isn’t “punitive”? Huh? This one has me scratching my yellow head. Squawk…
You have addressed the heart and core that will remain in sgm as an infested seed — and I too, am so so grieved that this seed multiplies itself in particular in this form:
“The systemic centrism of sgm leadership knows no bounds in its pride and arrogance THAT IT TRANSFERS TO THE FLOCK”…..We watch the effects of this in our brothers and sisters in sgm…. it is religous leaven…and it slowly chokes out abundant life and the ablility to discern, even to discern good from evil. God help us.
PK-I wasn’t baiting you when I commented, oh-no-he-didn’t, but I was sure hoping you’d jump in. I might have actually waiting until tomorrow before sending you an email
You didn’t bait me. PD made a comment in passing last night that someone in SGM leadership said that Presbys were the closest thing to SGM’s polity, and I just about sprayed coffee through my nose and spit bullets through my teeth. I needed a night to calm down before posting, and for the first time I found myself weeping over all of this.
The comment “…major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential,” is, from my point of view, complete and utter fiction. In 22 plus years of being in SGM across three churches, I never witnessed anything of the sort.
Just for the record, I was a part of pdi/sgm for 16 years and only once witnessed a pastor putting together a team of men to give input on something. ONCE. The church building fund wasn’t growing fast enough so the pastor asked these hand-chosen men, including my husband, to review the facts, talk with others, and tell the pastor what they believed was slowing down the funding. After making a thorough review, the team told the pastor that too many people felt like they were in debt to the church by having made a “comittment” about how much they would give. They were overextended by having been asked to make a financial goal of how much they would give (manipulated by some guy who was hired to encourage the flock to give more than what they could by faith). The pastor firmly rejected this finding. The team was dissolved.
In my experience, we were told about church decisions AFTER they were made, not before. Mere sheeplings were not consulted, even about building a church where the money was coming from our pockets. Is it different in ML? SGM polity would suggest “no”. It would be interesting to hear from the members there – is it true that “every member has a voice”?
In NO WAY are you attacking anyone. You have clearly articulated truth and I for one want to thank you. Everything you said is true and you said it with no anger or bitterness. Truth revealed is a good thing and is in no way attacking someone. For years, SGM has instilled in all of us that to speak truth indicates a root of bitterness or gossip or attacking someone. Far from the truth!
Vida: in re: your 7/8 comment at 5:04pm: “Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
I personally have not heard Danny say this, however…..this statement is full of false statements and out and out LIES, full of deception concerning SGM polity and what is really going on in their churches…… “major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.” This is absolutely not true. The pastors/elders of SGM make ALL the decisions without any communication with the members (” Vida said that Danny said, “every member has a voice and is essential”). If this wasn’t real life it would be comical. Because it is real life and dealing with real people, it is grievious. And, the people sitting in the pews are actually believing it….. Go figure!
SGM is very much episcopal: centrally controlled, assignment of pastors by a central office. No control by the laiety. Apostolic oversight by bishops? Yup. The five apostles (they have a new title now) set out regionally and called in when there is a problem. No elections of any positions.
No deacons. No diaconate. No elders. No session. No Presbyterian. No way.
Just wanted to let you know I’m kind of pregnant. Even though I’m fifty, if you know what I mena, and my husband went, years ago, to visit the doc, if you know what I mean.
But I insist on claiming to be kind of pregnant, and you can’t dissuade me. Some of my friends are pregnant, too, and we hang out alot together. That’s how I know I’m kind of pregnant. ‘Cause they are my friends, and THEY ARE PREGNANT!
Ladies and gentlemen – I want to bring something to everyone’s attention. I have some very close friends still in SGM churches and some that have just recently left after 20+ years in SGM (like myself), that are communicating a very similar story to me from “all parts”.
Their message goes something like this “something is definitely happening on the leadership level, long-standing folks are leaving (some en mass), leadership is starting to reach out (or attempt to do so) – make calls – visits etc, they are calling for some congregational input for the first time etc….”
I do not want to bring false hope, or suggest to ease up on the quest for truth and God’s best for his people, however the opposite, I want to encourage not only those who communicate here at sgmref & sgmsurv, but those that are in the SGM churches. Things are beginning to “shake”. Thanks be to God!
Take this small comment that Vida Savta noted from DJ that said “He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.” Not to belabor the issue of who owns the church etc. but why would DJ see the need to say such a thing, if in fact, there was no “possibility or consideration or discussion” of that reality. Think about it, they (MLC Leaders) must be getting enough info from “outside and inside” that has them really thinking (my hope and prayer). When Todd T. left and listed his “doctrinal differences” don’t you believe it may have had an impact to promote at least the thoughts and consideration of the issues.
I want to encourage all who have left, are about to leave, are unsure, are staying, to press hard into God to seek him for the part you are to play. God can work through us all to bring glory to Himself! This is no small, minor, local issue. We know many of the stories of real people, who’s real lives have been dramatically and tragically impacted by this “slow creep” of extra-biblical doctrine that has “taken root” in the SGM denomination. I wonder how many stories we don’t know? God does.
Press on brothers and sisters!
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” (2 Cor 5:10)
Oh my gosh, you had me going, RT. I was getting ready to cheer and celebrate! (And laugh in a nice kind of way, to tell you the truth!) Oh my gosh, you are awesome!
I know I keep beating this bush…but in a world filled with pastors who lack a pastor’s heart, you stand out as a “pastoral candidate,” to use a stuffy word.
One of the reasons I say that is that you have a burning passion to protect the sheep, and the only time I see your hackles rise is when the church is being attacked. You have such a Jesus heart for his people and for righteousness.
You don’t have to wait around until your under-educated pastors tell you to go, you know. Out here in Freedomland, where you now reside, you can hear God’s leading all by yourself.
RT — Honeybun, you just PROVED that you are Presbyterian — no WAY that SGM would be Presbyterian in the same way, cause no good SGM guy would agree to THAT kind of a dr visit. Therefore, SGM canNOT be Presbyterian.
Does that reasoning sound circularly familiar?
The sad thing about the Sorta Presbyterian Declaration is that yet another perfectly good, formerly definable word now has an SGM-slanted meaning. Add that one to their tweaked definitions of terms like pastor, elder, grace, reformed, charismatic, youth group, priesthood of all believers, sin, legalism, children’s ministry…and there you have it. SGM is “Sorta Mormon” in that they use terms that we THINK we understand, but they’ve got a whole ‘nother definition going on.
Once, I asked someone who attends a large “community church” what kind of church it is. He answered that it’s Baptist. Later, I found that it’s not Baptist at all — but in HIS experience, it is sorta Baptist because it’s evangelical and practices believer’s baptism. Now, I can accept this kind of error from a non-educated, fairly new Christian who doesn’t understand the term Baptist. But when someone known as a pastor, apostle, elder (or other current buzz-term) states that SGM is Sorta Presbyterian, I have to wonder if his seminary is accredited…
Meanwhile, I invite everybody to a sorta baby shower for RT. I’m thinking we’ll have it at Panera because it’s sorta like McDonald’s.
“Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
SINCE WHEN?????????????? NOT THE 22 YEARS I WAS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have to be kidding! MLC folks, have you looked at the numbers in the church lately? Again, how many Nathans have come in the past year PLUS with input? The response Danny J was ” we just don’t see that”. How many people left BECAUSE they did not listen, hear or want to hear, and NOW all of a sudden every member has a voice? I had 4 pages of VOICE with Danny. I had 3 pages of VOICE for Benny.
Unless you agree with an “I Am Metro Life Church” – The Exclusive Club T Shirt- attitude, no one has a voice. That was my experience. I just left formally in June. I understand that there is another long standing family in the wings about to do the same.
For the sake of the name of Christ, when are they going to wake up?????
Oh Square One, great ending and “logic” throughout.
Can we please add “love” to the list of words they have redefined? Along with “church” and “commitment”, “friendship” and “family”? Not to mention what it means to “trust God” and to “glorify God”.
“The Bible’s words can be twisted and turned to justify many things. However, one of the most disturbing trends is to label someone a “gossip” if said person is trying to expose sin in the church. Think about all the Old Testament prophets. Wasn’t their focus purity among God’s people? ”
“I deplore Christian organizations that “cover up” sin in order to “protect the church. These pastors and organization are protecting no one but their own sorry backsides. These supposed “warriors” for Christ will point fingers at the world but hide their own sins. Their nonsense about “gossip” is to a scare tactic to shut up the truth. Their hogwash about “protecting” the church illuminates their total lack of understanding that Jesus protects the church, not them. Deep down inside they are “hiding their sin” and they know it.”
“These types of leaders reinforce their power by misusing Scripture to silence those who would bring up the issue of the abusive pastor. They are told they are “gossiping.” Gossiping is unbiblical, isn’t it? Unfortunately, the average church attendee is cowed by this accusation and shuts up.”
“”Funny thing about Scripture, though, is that the stories in the Bible often times seem focused on the sin. And sin, by most accounts, tends to be negative. For example, there was that icky issue with David and Bathsheba. Nathan, the prophet, confronted David. Perhaps things would have gone a whole lot better had Nathan focused on the positive. You know, “David loves God and loves to dance”. “Touch not the Lord’s anointed.” “You don’t really know what happened with Bathsheba, do you? It’s just a bunch of gossip. Just be glad that David is a good king.””
I think it would be interesting and encouraging to know what books you all are reading to help you grow into fullness in Christ in light of your experiences (positive or negative) with SGM churches. Someone on Survivors recommended They Found by Secret by Raymond Edman quite a while ago and I found it in a used bookstore. It is a collection of short bios of notable Christians. I really liked it. I also love anything written by Gary Thomas. (That is an understatement.)
At the moment, I am reading To Be Told by Dan Allender, which I started a long time ago but never finished. It is about understanding the story of your past and writing your future. I am planning to order Quivering Daughters: Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy by Hillary McFarland (http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/).
What are you all reading? How has it made an impact on you to bring truth and grace?
Quoting a Quote…
“Take this small comment that Vida Savta noted from DJ that said “He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.” “ Being a former board member of a SGM church, I have to disagree with this statement. I have read the whole legal documents, I actually studied them. The document upon any change from association from SGM required all remaining assets to be given to SGM headquarters.
Did not seem to me that there were “no legal ties”.
Chief One Pac, would you be so kind as to identify the document in question by name and quote the exact words? Danny clearly said the SGM had no claim on the assets.
Vida- I think reading what other men and women think the Bible says has created a lot of the difficulties in Christianity. The simplicity in knowing Christ was born, Christ lived a sinless life was crucified, raised from the dead, ascended to the Father, sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth and that Christ will come again is pretty much all we need to know. Ok, that is pretty simple–isn’t it.
Excellent point about the Bible, Azaziah. But still, reading a variety of Christian books can help broaden our perspective and challenge us to either confirm or lay aside assumptions we have already picked up from others along the way. It helps us to think, “Was this really Biblical?” instead of just assuming it is.
P.S. Unrelated tidbit: Just noticed there should be an “h” in “Shavta” in my name – I must have missed that the first time I posted under the name “Vida Shavta.” I think both “savta” and “shavta” are correct English spellings of the Hebrew word for grandmother, but I want to be consistent with what I’ve written elsewhere. But you all can just call me plain Vida anyway.
I have found listening to scripture as it is read aloud to be a great balm. I do this on my daily commute and enjoy 30+/- minutes, twice daily, of mostly uninterrupted listening. The gospels and the OT prophets have been poignant in this fashion.
There are links on this site to Steve Brown’s “Scandalous Freedom”. I’ve listened and read through that.
Don Carson’s book “How Long” provides a beneficial view of suffering in general.
Another help – CS Lewis’s “Screwtape Letters”, both read and listened to (the John Cleese version). I was late in recognizing the spiritual conflict that engulfed me at SG. Lewis (and Cleese) helped me see it in the rearview mirror.
All this and 4 bucks will get you a venti frappy something,
Former SG Pastor
“Azaziah – you said “i read the Bible. His Word is sufficient!!!!”
Then why do we listen to sermons? Why listen to anyone teach? Why listen to the opinions of friends or spouses when they discuss the things of God? Rather than the hostile attitude towards what others have to say in book form, why not embrace them ALONG with Bible study. Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water in your simmering anger towards SGM (Almost all of Tozer’s books are just sermons put to print so you would be safe with Tozer)
You read what other believers say on these blogs – which are just small short stories (books) – someone else’s thoughts. It is our duty to read with discernment and not accept what the author says in the same way we listen to teaching and are called to be Bereans.
Paul- Why the attack. the bible says his word is sufficient. vida asked what we have been reading. i answered. I am reading the Bible. Why do you say i am angry. Really. the assumptions in your statements are puzzling.
FSGP– Screwtape Letters read by John Cleese. Interesting.
Paul- Furthermore isn’t the books and interpretation of what other men have to say about the Word led to all the schisms in Christianity and the errors of SGM/metro??? I didn’t say it was wong to read other books, i said the Word of Godf is sufficient. that is where I am at since having a huge library of other men’s readings didn’t sttop me from following error and bad doctrine. Since i have been reading just the Bible i have come to experience great freedom!!!!
Paul, I didn’t take it as an attack or sense any anger on Azaziah’s part. He made a good point. So did you. And thanks, FSGP, for your giving some book titles. I like Screwtape Letters, too. And I love the gospels. I’ve been studying all four concurrently, event by event, for several months, though not every single day.
Azaziah, there are certainly seasons in our lives where a “Bible only” spiritual reading diet is most appropriate!
I like to think of reading a Christian book as having an extended conversation with another brother or sister in Christ. It is a practical and durable way for authors to “encourage one another and build each other up” as they draw out practical applications of the Word for different areas of life. Elizabeth George has been a good one for me as a wife, mom and homemaker. I want to reread her Beautiful in God’s Eyes, which is about Proverbs 31.
Chief One Pac, would you be so kind as to identify the document in question by name and quote the exact words? Danny clearly said the SGM had no claim on the assets.
The phrase- “No claim” clearly has been redefined in typical SGM style. I doubt this document was made available for reproduction and what Chief One Pac has said does not surprise me in the least.
Vida,
I am currently reading “God’s Greater Glory” by Bruce Ware, it gives some very clear explanation for the apparent (to me at least) contradiction between God’s sovereignty in all things and our free will. This is an issue that has been very much on my mind of late. Also I recommend most anything by Timothy Keller, CS Lewis and A.W. Tozer.
Jim,
Are you familiar with the document that Chief One Pac has referred to?
Chuck
Chief One Pac, was that a church plant, or an adopted church. I can certainly see the reason behind that verbiage if it was a plant, though I would think the assets would go back to the source church of the plant rather than SGM, though I guess funds could come from both sources.
VS. I have recently re-read for the ? time the Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. very enlightening in it’s profound simplicity.
Last week I just read Dr Buttar’s new book, The Nine Steps to Keep the Doctor Away(a medical book but spiritual also) and I just bought Eat Pray Love and haven’t read it yet.
Walking Wounded,
It was a plant and not an adoption. Let me just say there were, to my shame and others, many things that were not following the legal law after evaluating and understanding the bylaw document.
Vida,
You can get my email from Jim if you would like, and I can discuss with you off line. I prefer talking about the SGM issues, verbally…
From the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006:
5. Member-churches may discontinue their affiliation with Sovereign Grace at any time with or without cause by providing written notice to Sovereign Grace and participating in an exit interview with representatives appointed by the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace. Likewise, Sovereign Grace may remove a church from member-church status through the same procedure. When a member-church chooses to no longer affiliate with Sovereign Grace,
the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace will relinquish its role in a God-honoring manner, and grant that church the freedom to withdraw unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
I love Brother Andrew’s book. Have you ever read Andrew Murray’s works? He became my “pastor” after I left PDI, even though he is with the Lord. His books taught me how to yield to God and how to wait on Him. I will love to shake his hand in heaven.
Vida, I also have read “The Best of Tozer”, and a few of Frank Viola’s books. One of my favorite books in the Bible is Hebrews, as it taught me how to walk by faith and not by sight.
“Their message goes something like this “something is definitely happening on the leadership level, long-standing folks are leaving (some en mass), leadership is starting to reach out (or attempt to do so) – make calls – visits etc, they are calling for some congregational input for the first time etc….”
I do not want to bring false hope, or suggest to ease up on the quest for truth and God’s best for his people, however the opposite, I want to encourage not only those who communicate here at sgmref & sgmsurv, but those that are in the SGM churches. Things are beginning to “shake”. Thanks be to God!”
I wonder how true this is and if it is true are the leaders concerned with members leaving or are more concerned about the loss of contributions from these long time members that are allegedly leaving? It is good if things are truly starting to be shaken. Lets pray that the leaders will seek God on this.
Jim, quoting the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006 said, “Likewise, Sovereign Grace may remove a church from member-church status through the same procedure. When a member-church chooses to no longer affiliate with Sovereign Grace, the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace will relinquish its role in a God-honoring manner, and grant that church the freedom to withdraw unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.”
Seriously? When HAVEN’T they suspected someone who disagrees with them and they can no longer control of having “heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications”. That’s like me saying I’ll do whatever you want me to unless I decide you no longer are valid. And oppps, you don’t like me? So I suspect you are no longer valid. I no longer have to do as I said I would do.
Sorry Vida, I don’t have any good answers in regard to what books I read. Or rather, I don’t read too many Christian books. I found that Plan B: Further Thoughts of Faith by Anne Lamott really blessed me. She definitely looks at the Christian faith differently than I used to, but God has used her to shake me up and see Him from another view point. (It’s been really good, though scandalous to some, probably. Some books can shake your religious view points- thank heavens as my religious view point gets really stuck in its way from time to time and can leave little room for either God or love.) I also sort of liked Donald Miller’s Blue Like Jazz though I haven’t really like his dragon book all that much.
I’ll tell you one book that has cause me to understand God in a better way (and setting me free from some legalism and fear at the same time) but it’s not a Christian book at all. But I’ve bought it for many people as I’ve seen it set people free to live lives more in line with what God made them to do. It’s called Finding Your Own Northstar by Martha Beck. Like I said, not a Christian book but God has used it as a tool in my life for the past 8 years. I just started its sequel, Stargazer (or something akin to that title) and so far it’s proven to be somewhat interesting.
Btw, Azariah, for the most part I’m with you. I normally hate reading books that people write about God. Our minds are small. His is big. There is no way in heck we can begin to think we understand Him. We people are stupid. Overall, I got enough stupid of my own to go adding someone else’s stupid ideas about God to the pile. I’d rather stick to the bible for most of my finding out about God reading. Though Paul, I hear what you’re saying about reading here is similar to reading other people’s thoughts on God. I hadn’t thought about it that way before, but I think you’re right. I guess I like it here because it’s not a big long book written by us stupid people, claiming that we know the mind of God. But small little snipets of stupid instead*.
From the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006:
Blah Blah Blah, and we promise to be really good and magnanimous ……….. unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
Now there’s the rub, isn’t it?
I mean, like Stunned said, just when has ANYBODY who has disagreed with ANYTHING in SGM not been accused of, or suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
All it takes is suspicion, and in the end, SGM gets it all.
Unless…. Rise up O Men of God!
I’ll bet tomorrow’s coffee that if the congregation would rise up, they don’t have a “plan” for dealing with that kind of …..”Reformation”.
I’m just guessing.
Also from the 2006 Membership Agreement
Introductory Paragraph:
This section defines the commitments between member-churches and Sovereign Grace towards the purpose of accomplishing the shared mission (or partnership) of starting, establishing, and strengthening local churches with the gospel, for God’s glory.1
And the footnote referenced:
1Please note that Sovereign Grace has no members that exercise the rights and powers of members of a corporation under the laws of the State of Maryland. However, Sovereign Grace as a family of churches has member churches determined by the ecclesiastical qualifications described in this Agreement and governed by the Holy Bible, but such membership conveys no standing, responsibility or authority for governance of Sovereign Grace as a corporation.
Jim’s comment: I have zero hope for reform. SGM is digging in their heels. They are pastors, and you are not.
SGM has no choice but to dig in their heels. When we heard that a new polity statement was coming out, I was so hopeful that they’d seen the light and were actually gonna adopt a Presbyterian government. I was sorely disappointed.
But in thinking about it, it’s pretty clear that they cannot change and survive financially. Too much livelihood is at stake. For one thing, in a presbyterian model, there is no Ceejay. To reliquish control to elected elders and deacons would hamstring not only the Little A’s, but also the local pastors. What would happen if a local board of elected elders (we Presbies call it “The Session”) to vote out a pastor? Said pastor would be out to lunch. He doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of finding a non-SGM church that would accept his SGM Pastors’ College credentials. Further, what would happen if said session decided that they’d prefer to have a pastor with an actual seminary education? They might actually call someone who’d not gone to the PC. And we just can’t have that, because the PC cannot be seen as anything less than a non-negotiable essential for a pastor, and it must be considered superior to a seminary.
But really — when it comes to the PC — to quote ol’ Clara from those great Wendy’s commercials — where’s the beef? Sure, there’s a big, fluffy bun. In the grand scheme of things, the PC is lite beer. Fewer calories — less filling. And yes, I do believe that good things are taught there — that it’s a pretty decent crash course — that the guys who go are as gung-ho as they come. But another thing that keeps SGM from being anywhere near “Sorta Presbyterian” is that Presbyterians require their pastors to be well-educated. I can’t imagine a PCA, EPC, ARP or OPC pastor asserting that his church is structured sorta like SGM. He’d be too well-educated to make such a gaffe.
The bylaws might state that any SGM Church can leave any time “without cause” but does anyone know of cases of any SGM Churches leaving SGM besides the Cleveland Church (when the group was called PDI)? If none have left then one would think that the reality is like the told song that says “you can check out anytime you want but you can never leave.”
If none have left then I would suspect it is really hard if not impossible for a group to leave the “association.”
Those are good points that people have brought up about SGM Leadership being able to use the one clause to keep the group in the fold. SGM Leaders can invoke the “heresy” clause as a way to prevent a church from leading.
One other question is that if these churches are only part of an “association” why was there a push to rename all of these churches to “Sovereign Grace” from their original name.
While studying the Book of Galatians, I was led to the following quotation from Martin Luther. Although it was written in 1535, it underscores the reality that evil still attacks in many different ways. Sometimes directly, sometimes through the deception of good people and by other means. Regardless of what Fellowship we are a part of, it is vital that we continually pray for both protection and discernment . . . and most of all love.
From Martin Luther’s Commentary on Galatians (1535):
When the devil sees that he cannot hurt the cause of the Gospel by destructive methods, he does it under the guise of correcting and advancing the cause of the Gospel. He would like best of all to persecute us with fire and sword, but this method has availed him little because through the blood of martyrs the church has been watered. Unable to prevail by force, he engages wicked and ungodly teachers who at first make common cause with us, then claim that they are particularly called to teach the hidden mysteries of the Scriptures to superimpose upon the first principles of Christian doctrine that we teach. This sort of thing brings the Gospel into trouble. May we all cling to the Word of Christ against the wiles of the devil, “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
—Luther’s Commentary on Galatians
Where error and sin exists in the leadership of S G M, whether in the individual church or in S G M Incorporated, may it be clearly revealed to all involved and the conviction of the Holy Spirit lead to true repentance and amends.
Hi Vida, Please do not be upset with those who said to read the Bible, instead. I was involved in Christian marketing for years and years and I always read the hottest new author…there is always a hot new Christian author.
But I repented of that world and left it. See, Western Christianity is a business enterprise. Even SGM is a business enterprise. That will offend many but I can assure you it is true.
I would recommend reading the bible but also praying that God will remove all filters you might have accumilated reading all those books and listening to all those sermons! Paul commended the Bereans because they checked everything he said. We should be doing that, too. But we cannot recognize the counterfiet unless we know the real thing.
I recommend studying the Word with a good interlinear. Not what others say about it but what the Holy Spirit teaches you. Jesus said we have the BEST TEACHER. Church was never meant for us to go and hear one guy speak week after week. That is simple tradition.
Besides, it does not bode well for folks growing in spiritual maturity. How could they grow past the guy telling them what to believe and think?
Can you imagine how much error and bad behavior would not stand if we followed Paul’s counsel in 1 Corinthians? Enjoy your new relationship with the Word. It is very profitable.
Ya know, I love to read Luther & Sproul.
It can never replace my time in the Word. When I’m in the Word, I fellowship directly with God, and even hear from The Holy Spirit directly.
Scripture tells us to be warned, and that there is nothing new under the sun.
Luther reminds us that there is nothing new under the sun.
Sproul tells us why there is nothing new under the sun.
The list can be endless.
But the list is always trumped by Scripture.
I hate to burst your bubble about Sproul but he does not really practice what he preaches. This is why following men is so dangerous. I followed the Ligoneir scandal and was appalled at Ligoneirs behavior.
You can also find references to Ligoneirs lawsuit against the blogger in the Orlando Sentinel and USA Today from that time period.
His son was defrocked by the presbyterians and within a few weeks, Jr was a paid speaker at a Ligoneir conference. One reason for defrocking was his misuse of tax exempt numbers. Another was abuse of the flock.
Hey Marta, overall I agree with everything you’re saying. But I just wanted to say on behalf of our dear sister, Vida, that I don’t think she was upset with anyone for saying they read only the bible. I think if you reread the comments you’ll see she wasn’t upset with anyone on that account. Btw, Marta, good to see you contributing here. And glad to see you teaching us about what happened in the world of Sproul. I’ve never been a fan for some of the reasons you mentioned.
Marta, I wasn’t offended by Azaziah or anyone who is encouraging reading the Bible. I am also aware of the Sproul issues and so many others related to it. Reading – either books or on-line – has helped me sort through a bunch of things rather than just taking one person’s word on an issue. I try to take everything with a grain of salt.
BTW, did you ever live in Orlando? I once had a friend named Marta at UCF and lost track of her along the way.
Marta,
I haven’t read the links you posted yet, (just popping in for a moment between tasks.)
I have not heard of anything of these events.
Truth is, I haven’t followed Ligonier stuff in years (with the exception of listening to Sproul’s radio show from time to time and in the last few weeks.)
I do however, have several of Sproul’s books on various points on Reformed doctrines from years past.
By the way, Sproul is not my savior. I do however enjoy hearing his philosophical descriptions of biblical texts, and doctrinal explanations.
(AND, I do not necessarily agree with EVERYTHING he says.)
I will say that even though I have foregone reading works by Christian authors (I got burned out with all the Christian “branding” of people. If you are around it, you would understand) I decided a few years back to educate myself on the History of the church since the first century. What a bloody mess!
But I learned a lot and can say that Viola’s Pagan Christianity hits the nail on the head. I consider that more of a history book, in any case. But one learns that most of what we see practiced has nothing to do with Christianity. But tradition. And some of the people we admire…my goodness! Like Knox or Calvin! I read the transcript and timeline of the Servetus trial and let me say, I am not impressed with Calvin. But Christian history is a long series of men wanting power and authority over others. It is nothing new.
All of this bloody mess of Christian history only leads me back to Acts 20 and what Paul said would happen. With tears in his eyes as he prepared to leave them. He knew it was coming. And we know it did with the warnings to the churches in Revelation.
I certainly am not looking for a perfect “Church”. But a “pure” Body of Christ. Because Christ will present a “pure” Bride to Himself.
And don’t think this comment of his escaped me, because it may as well have been in flashing neon:
“Blame and name-calling aside I have a much greater concern about this lawsuit. My principal concern is that this may set a precedent, which enables corporations to silence vocal critics operating in the blogoshpere. The issue of bloggers’ rights has been gaining notoriety over the last year, as has the question of whether bloggers qualify as members of the press and therefore enjoy the same freedoms. Considering the recent high-profile cases, First Amendment lawyers have been posturing for another round in the fight for a legal precedent in this matter. Although I’m not damning Ligonier for their action, I don’t think that they have considered the negative repercussions it could produce. Already, there is increasing vitriol against Ligonier, which is drudging up past controversies (in prominent watch blogs other than Mr. Vance & associates) and fueling aggressive critics who have strong opinions but few facts (concerning the Soli Deo Gloria aquisition). Although they may well be right in this matter, if Ligonier wins, it could set up an environment where corporations and non-profits are able to silence critics and punish dissent. No matter the outcome of this case, there may only be losers. It breaks my heart to know that a disagreement between Christians might be the catalyst for negative social change. I will keep an eye on this one.”
Alarming, PK——- “They” used to shoot the watchmen on the walls with arrows.
In the 21st century, “they” seek to silence the avenues of media — radio,television
and internet. We must know the Voice of Holy Spirit and be filled with Gods Word–and be out of the snare of firstly submitting to any church hierarchy.
Wow!
This explains a few things I observed, but dismissed, over the years.
Kinda makes you go “Hmmmmm…..”, how about that?
jr. was a part of (daddy) Sproul’s radio show from time to time in a Q & A capacity in the early-mid 90′s, and then I heard jr. went to be a pastor somewhere. Then as I recall, there was a mention of trouble with jr, but nothing more. By that time I was not following the ministry or listening to the radio show, so I dismissed it.
What people are reporting that happened with Sproul is similar to the nepotism and along with that sometimes double standards we see in SGM. You will see one pastor related to Mahaney who doesn’t have to step down due his child’s actions while other pastors (that aren’t related) in similar situations don’t have to step down.
Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of men should be leading and not just one person.
Steve says: Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of (unrelated) men should be leading and not just one person.
Yup!
The military has it understood.
Siblings or relatives are not allowed in the same chain of command, if at all possible, so that there will be no “conflict of interest.”
Defense contractors do not allow spouses, or relatives in the same departments. I know of situations where a person married another co-worker, and then one of them had to quit or transfer to another department.
Did the Church forget something about “indwelling sin”?
It wasn’t just the lawsuit at Ligoneir that upset so many. It was the fact they lied to their donors that they did not file a lawsuit at all. They thought they could keep it under wraps. They did not know the blogger and could not find him. The filing of the lawsuit was to try and shut down his site….but they had to find him first. When it did come out with documents proving they filed, they said it was simply an ‘injunction” which is not really a lawsuit. (rolls eyes)
During this time, donations fell considerably and the callers from Ligoneir came almost 3x a week for donations and selling stuff. The callers were telling folks there was no lawsuit trying to get their donations going again. The president of Ligoneir during this time was Tim Dick, Sproul’s son in law who also lived in their mansion home. He was surly, arrogant and mean. Eventually he was let go. But, to add insult to injury, Dick’s son posted a bunch of facebook stuff about inheriting the family business, His Lexus and shots of him guzzling bit steins of beer and talk of all his routy parties. He was about 20 and worked at Ligoneir, too. Not great PR.
Links to charity navigator showed Sprouls high salary from Ligoneir and his wife’s salary as a board member. This did not include his pastorate, his book royalties or speaking fees.
It seems the unseemly side of the Sproul’s was becoming public knowledge and they came off as typical Christian celebrities milking it for all it’s worth. Also, during this time some tried to get RC Sproul disciplined by the Presbytery. But guess what? His church is indepedent. He just called himself one. So, no discipline.
Ligon Duncan’s, brother who was part of the whole lawsuit, was made President of Ligoneir.
SGM defenders love to reference CJ’s relationship with the Reformed Big Dogs, as if this is some type of validation.
The Sproul deal hit the national press, and if I’m not mistaken, the only public figure to criticize Sproul for taking a believer to court was John MacArthur.
Wow – leave town for a few days and it takes quite a while to catch up.
Too many teachers of the word today teach what someone else has learned rather than what the Holy Spirit is teaching them. Reading books are fine but learning the word under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit is irreplaceable. The Bible is not a self-help book but very simply is a book that teaches us who the Lord (God) is, who we are and how we are to live with God and one another.
That we have a church that is Biblically illiterate is an understatement yet we have more books, DVDs, CDs, Videos, etc. etc. that at any time in history. Jan Huss and other great men of God lost their lives trying to get the word of God translated into the common language of the people and into the hands of all the people. That should tell us how important it is for all people to study the Bible.
Years ago a close friend was in Northern Iraq speaking with a significant Imam. After my friend introduced himself as an evangelical Christian, my friend asked the Imam who he thought was going to win; Christians or Muslims. The Imam after stroking his beard several times said this “the people that get back to the ‘book’ first!” (even the Koran acknowledges the Gospels and the Torah are the word of God)
The Bible is the most important book in the world and especially to Christians. If we trust the teachers and pastors to teach us what we need to know we will not get where we need to go. The study of the Bible is not so we can just increase in knowledge of the word but the knowledge of Him, the author and perfecter of our faith.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher and He will teach us all things and remind us of the words of Jesus. I would much rather hear from the Holy Spirit rather than any man. For those who might react to my statement: I understand we can hear from God from men, nature, circumstances, etc. and that God gives teachers to the body. Teachers are good and a gift of which I have been teaching for 35 years and I am grateful for the teachers who have taught me.
But when it comes to learning God’s word, I would much rather hear it directly from Him and let what men teach confirm what He is teaching me.
Irv, what an encouraging post! Well put! Back to the Book indeed! I use http://www.biblegateway.com all the time. I can’t imagine life without it. Not to mention that many Bibles all around our house, a few each of NIV, ESV, NASB, and some other versions, too. Thanks be to God for his Word! I often remind my kids how people in other countries either don’t have God’s word in their heart language, or the Bible is forbidden or severely restricted, or they just don’t have enough copies to go around. One thing we have done as a mission project for many years is send money directly to a pastor in Malawi for buying Chichewa language Bibles and hymnals. We also produce his Chichewa language gospel tracts; Metro Life has been so kind as to print the last few batches for us.
When I taught a home school co-op middle school English class last year, we did studies from Genesis (life of Joseph), Daniel, Esther, Proverbs, Psalms, and Philippians right along with the other literature. For the one on Philippians, I taught them a few different Bible study methods.
One of the things that really blessed me a week or so ago at Metro Life was a group of young people (from preteen to about age 30) who had been memorizing Scripture got up and did a dramatic reading of the entire book of Philippians from memory, each reciting large chunks of it in turn. Each one of them had already memorized the entire book, along with some other Bible books. One of the girls was one of my former students. I was so proud of her. The presentation really challenged me in my own love for hiding God’s Word in my heart.
Preach it Irv!
Nothing trumps the Word of God!
It’s good to have you back.
Hey! When are you coming up north here for some wine.
(I put my winter clothes away. You got about 32 days before I get ‘em back out again.)
Bring PK & PD with you…..
Ya hear that PK??
I’m bottling Sangria tomorrow. Sangria is good at the end of these hot Colorado days, with some chunks of frozen peaches in the glass. (When the temps get waaaaay up in the 90′s.)
Well, lets see…. I read the Oprah magazine. It is really great for confidence for women, learning how to think for my self and beauty secrets….there was a great article about snacking in the recent issue.
What I don’t read is Anything by a Sovereign Grace Pastor, or anything He/She may suggest. I stay away from anything “cross centered” or books about digging. I do not further Sovereign Grace Pastors books, fiction or non fiction. I find these books to be condemning and boring.
I think we all agree God’s Word is A-Number-1. But since you asked about extra-curricular reading, I will chime in with my personal recent favorite: Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ by John Piper. A small book, but packed. A study on the attributes of Christ.
And here’s one of my favorite quotes from this little book:
“The deepest longing of the human heart and the deepest meaning of heaven and earth are summed up in this: the glory of God. The universe was made to show it, and we were made to see it and savor it. Nothing less will do. Which is why the world is as disordered and dysfunctional as it is. We have exchanged the glory of God for other things (Rom. 1:23).
We are all starved for the glory of God, not self. No one goes to the Grand Canyon to increase self-esteem. Why do we go? Because there is greater healing for the soul in beholding splendor than there is in beholding self.”
Vida Shavta – great post and great work – The word of God will bear fruit in the lives of those who read and ponder!!!!
Defender - Thanks for the encouragement — you had me at “bottling Sangria”!!! As soon as I get a couple of deals closed we will be on our way to your part of the country and hopefully PK and PD will be able to join us. I have some business in Denver that I need to take care of as well — “funding the advancing of the kingdom” – I look forward to sharing with you all some of the most incredible things the Lord in putting into place his church change nations.
I am really looking forward to meeting you all and introducing you to some very dear friends in the your area as well. As the enemy seeks to kill, steal and destroy, God is raising up a standard through His church that is impregnable by His enemies – to God be the glory!!!
Oh my goodness Irv, I love to see God’s Kingdom going forth. And I love to meet His soldiers in “the fight”.
Yes, do stay in touch as the time draws near, and we will work out a rendezvous to meet.
(I’ll bring the Vino.)
Irv said, I strongly encourage all Christian (and non-Christians) to study the Bible.
Thank you, Irv. And YES! Non-Christians should study the Bible, too — anyone who wants to be well-educated needs to have Bible knowledge.
Some Christian teacher friends of mine were able to teach a public high school class entitled “The Bible as Literature” — because without Bible knowledge, those who read standard classical literature will be absolutely lost. The classics are filled with biblical references, and cannot be understood without knowing why those references are there.
Another Christian public school teacher read “The Best Christmas Pageant Ever” to her third graders every year – and many of them didn’t know who Mary and Joseph were. But now they do!
And we know that the Word of God will not return void…
The quote you wrote out from Pipers book is so moving—speaks to the depths.
I am going to pull this book from the shelf and read. I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm, I
just could not. Currently reading the book of John – and look forward to the accompaniment of “Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ”. Clinging to Him above all else
brings living water……….
I wonder – with all of this insight now available through media/information dissemination i.e. the incredible institutional church model abuses (SGM, RC, etc.) … whether a discussion about the scriptural validity and support for/against the “IT” (institutional church) as it has become in western Protestantism would be helpful.
I would love to have some of the really smart folks i.e. PK help me regain my confidence in the scriptural support of theἐκκλησίᾳ (ekklēsia) as we see it today?
Do you believe that some/most of these “moral failures” and abuses could be the outworking of “sinful men” assuming positions of authority (along with the expectations that go along) A.K.A. Pride, that God never intended them to walk in?
It seems we have this false expectation of this “senior pastor”. We expect him to be a visionary, administratively gifted, preaching, teacher.
What happened to:
“For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body …….. But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.” (1 Cor 12:14-20)
This thought was rekindled by a recent discussion with a friend about his SGM church that took in over $1.4M in T.O. last year and the breakdown of those $$. ?? i.e. salaries, building note payment, other admin. vs. “widows and orphans etc.”
Has it all become too much about the power, control, money?
Waters said, “I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm, I just could not. Currently reading the book of John…”
Thank heavens SGM didn’t tout reading the bible all that much or it would hard for each of us to read, too.
Both the high salaries and questionable actions of individuals in R.C. Sproul’s group may explain why that RBD is reluctant to get involved in the problems that are being shown with Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Jim said:
“The Sproul deal hit the national press, and if I’m not mistaken, the only public figure to criticize Sproul for taking a believer to court was John MacArthur.”
I wonder if this silence is because other RBDs also live in “glass houses.” This would make them that more reluctant to speak out when similar things may be happening in their own organization.
apelogeito,
I’m with you in your wondering….
I’m concerned that Americans have “incorporated” the Church, making it more about control than worshiping the One who is Worthy.
In the aftermath, the Bride is abused. I’m thinking the Bridegroom will be ready for a fight.
These men who see the church as a way of making profit, are going to find a jealous Bridegroom.
Defended says:
“Steve says: Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of (unrelated) men should be leading and not just one person.
Just a slight clarification. ”
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe that helps explain what happened with the pastor’s son a few years ago in MLC. It was hard for the Sr. Pastor to suspect or want to admit the problems with his son. People might have even been in the know but were reluctant to point out problems with the “boss’s son.”
We met the Defenders a few weekends ago and they are wonderful people. ( Defenders, don’t forget us when you get together to meet Mr. and Mrs. Irv! Mr. Canary will be in touch about this weekend – I think he wants to go along on the Elk hunting ground search with some of the kids!). It would be so cool if we could meet folks you know in this area. And if the Defenders’ sangria is as good as their wine, I want some!
Canary dear,
I have you & your nest in mind when Refuge Party #2 is planned.
So, Mr. Canary is interested in this weekend’s little “trip”? COOL!
Have him email me & we’ll talk about it.
Ya know, I have been thinking about how the hunting is up in your neck of the woods.
I’m told by some that it’s pretty good up in the Natl. Forest there.
Is that bear still hanging around your house? I can ……. get rid of him for you ….. ya know…?
Irv, we see bears every now and then. I love them so you can’t shoot any or I’ll boo-hoo. I don’t know how the hunting is in the Nat. Forest but we live right next to it. You should check it out. Forget camping – stay at our place and have running water!!! Then just walk up our hill into the forest and shoot some elk, which we have plenty of I think. My kids have all expressed their interest in elk hunting…
Waters July 13th, 2010 at 9:28 am
PD,
The quote you wrote out from Pipers book is so moving—speaks to the depths.
I am going to pull this book from the shelf and read. I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm
_________________________________________________________
Waters, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water (I just made that up and you can use it anytime, but please let people know where you heard it first)
It can be so easy for us to say “everything about SGM was terrible”, but when if you look at many of the lifetime friends you have, and also excellent worship and teaching that, apart from the naval gazing, brought you closer to God, you have to be thankful for the good that God used in your lives in the time you spent with your SGM church. I have a brother that can only remember a harsh father and refuses to remember the fun times we had with Dad. Sad, now that Dad has died, my brother has nothing to draw from when he thinks of Dad because he remains bitter. We must strive to avoid becoming bitter or we will not move on in our walk. Ephesians 4 [31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice,
[32] and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Hey WalkingWounded — at least I know my identity in Christ! Saint! (Or is that SHAINT?) And DEARLY BELOVED. (That’s the VIDA part.) Ah, now that’s the real GOSPEL truth for you! And no, I’m not Jim. Too much estrogen for that, I’m afraid. Unless one of his alter egos is a chick?
You ask some very good questions and I am sure that many will have different perspectives based on their gifts and experiences. I thought I would share a couple of thoughts from the cheap seats that might at least provoke additional conversation and insight.
The institutional church seems to have always had its issues. The reformation of the 1500s was certainly a reaction to what was going on in the church at that time. The church didn’t get there overnight (like about 1200 years) and the reformation a God send to return God’s people (Ekklesia) to the mission and mandate of His kingdom.
A quick look at the time of the reformation:
The church (Ekklesia) had become Biblically illiterate. Leaders usurped the place and authority of Christ and put the people under a religious liturgy and activity and called it church. Ideologies of the world were accepted into the church and called them Christian but certainly not Biblical. Leaders were self-serving even to the point of having brothels in the Vatican and active prostitutes in the church for the leaders. There was great separation of clergy and laity (laity had no say in the governing or decision making pertaining to the church) and what they learned was what was told them. The image of Jesus was hanging on the cross not the ascension to the throne.
During the time of the reformation the Bible was being written in the language of the common people (6 men and 1 woman were killed for it). Salvation and righteousness was by faith and grace through Christ alone not the priests or church. As people read their Bible they became free and exercised their liberty experiencing the joy of the Lord. The place or positions of the clergy were brought down to line up more with scripture rather than church tradition. Pastors and teachers became ministers of the word, and evangelists for the cause of Christ.
The outcome of the reformation (in my humble opinion) was the renewal of the mission and mandate of Christ and the gospel of His kingdom. Unfortunately, reformation didn’t continue and the great revivals became once again the institutionalized church, whereby the church became the focus not His kingdom. Jesus said seek first the kingdom of God not His church.
We have been taught to seek first the church. The problem is this – the church is us (Ekklesia). What you seek you become – the institutionalized church has become all about us not His kingdom and His purpose. Salvation is all about me (and Jesus) and not about the door to the life and mission of His kingdom. We have become a religious people bound by our traditions not a people who are set free and empowered preach the gospel of the kingdom to all nations.
The institutionalized church has been more affected by our culture (ideologies and methodologies) than we have affected our culture. Pastors are professionals and hirelings not servants and shepherds. The institutionalized church has lost its mission and unfortunately the church doesn’t know it (I place the onus on the leadership in the church). It isn’t about getting people saved but entering and participating in the fullness of Christ and His kingdom. We are trying to perfect ourselves rather than understanding the righteousness of Christ in us.
We have lost our saltiness and become another religion not a force of righteousness to be reckoned with. Even by our confession we are ‘sinners saved by grace’ (which I get). But more truthful; we are the saints of Christ, His body, His presence, His glory in the earth, His righteousness. We are a chosen race, a holy nation (a people set apart for His purpose and use), a royal priesthood (all believers) and a people possessed by God to proclaim to the world God our creator, our Savior and our Redeemer.
I believe it is time for the Ekklesia to get back to the simplicity of Christ in us and being His presence and glory in the world. Jesus said He would build His church but unfortunately men have decided that is their job not His. Jesus instructed us to go and make disciples of the world (all nations) teaching them how to live with God and with one another.
Perhaps it is appropriate for another reformation; a reformation that will usher the return of our Lord. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 that when the gospel of His kingdom is preached in all the world, then the end shall come.
Defender et al — can’t wait to join you all for some fun and fellowship. Sidney and fam have also relocated to the Denver area and who knows who else might be reading the blogs and would like to join us.
Paul, Thankyou for the original phrase (!!!!????!!): “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.” !! Point well taken. It’s been a process………and yes, there is ever so much I (and we) are thankful for from 19 years in pdi/sgm——especially the many friends who so love the Lord and we walked together….worship times when God met us..ministry times at the altar………watching children grow up and marry……….. I do not dismiss these markers in our lives—-they are precious———-and I am without words to express thankfulness that Holy Spirit would open our eyes and ears to what was occuring “behind closed doors” as pastoral ‘counsel’ and leadership manifested in forms of unGodly oppressions upon my Brethren whom I love so much. Sometimes my words, I know, are very direct— I hold no bitterness, but deep sadness—There are times when it becomes necessary to sound the alarm. We have witnessed and confronted lies and abuse and illusions and strategized ‘misrepresentations’ in 2 large sgm churches at the hands of ‘shepherds’. There is a sense of responsibility for the Brethren whenever we see this occuring — to remain silent at the cost of one more Believer ensnared by deceit isnot an option. Probably this is why many of us are “vermin bloggers” (as one sgm-er labeled us!).
In thinking of my Brethren, my children, and grandchildren, this verse rings true:
“I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in The Truth.” 3John 1:4
The institutionalized church has been more affected by our culture (ideologies and methodologies) than we have affected our culture. Pastors are professionals and hirelings not servants and shepherds. The institutionalized church has lost its mission and unfortunately the church doesn’t know it (I place the onus on the leadership in the church).
\\\\ Awesome post\\\\\ I might quote that in about a week!!!!!!!!!! When i go to my churches evangelism board meeting. I believe your 100% right on with what you said about getting back to basics. It seems like there is a desire to dress up the gospel. I wonder if our Master cries over what we have done………..
I’m disappointed in the title of this post. For a guy that prides himself on his musical acumen, I would have thought you would have put the hyphens in the right places. Should have been We-are-fa-ma-lee…
RT – I feel your pain
“We are family.. I got all my sisters with me”
As bad as having your clock radio wake you up with a lame song that you sing all day.
Much different than the 60′s. If you remembered them, then you weren’t there.
Disco was a lost time. Sort of the RAP of the day. In the future, people will look back and say “we listened to that crap?”
I tried posting this yesterday but it is still in moderation. Better luck this time!
~~~
One of my high school classmates from 30 years ago just found me via Refuge! Sweet!
Anyway, I thought you all might like to see a poem that I wrote the other day – it’s on my main blog at “It Became to Me a Dark Thing”. I’m sure some of you might be able to relate to it, and I hope it will be a blessing to you.
Grace and glee…
Vida (Savta)
Paul…the 70′s was by far the best music decade ever. I was going through some “old stuff” just the other day and found one of my old 8 track tapes – “Eagles – One of These Nights.”
I hate to do this (not!) but what about “It’s a Small World After All”? Take the little kids on that ride at Disney World and you nearly loose your sanity – the song sticks in the mind like super glue. I think that, instead of water boarding, terrorists should be put on that ride over and over and over- they’d spill their guts before the third ride is finished!
A Kindred Spirit “Paul…the 70’s was by far the best music decade ever.”
I wasn’t referring to The Eagles, Beatles, Stones,Aerosmith,Alan Parsons,Allman Brothers,B.T.O.,Billy Joel,Bob Seger, Boston, The Boss,Chicago, CCR, CSN&Y, David Bowie, Deep Purple, Doobie Brothers, Eric Clapton, Fleetwood Mac,Foreigner, Genesis,Grand Funk Railroad, Guess Who, Heart, James Gang, Jethro Tull, Joe Wlash, Journey, Kansas,Led Zeppelin, Lynyrd Skynyrd,Molly Hatchet, Moody Blues, Mott The Hoople, The Outlaws, REO, Rod Stewart, Santana, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Styx, Supertramp,3 Dog Night, Toto, Van Morrison, Steve Winwood, The WHO, ZZ Top etc, I was talking about that vast wasteland called DISCO.
Jim, how’d I miss Ted Nugent and the Amboy Dukes and Van Halen? I also missed Yes, Blackmore’s Rainbow, Pink Floyd,Alice Cooper,Bad Company, KISS,Peter Frampton,Steppenwolf, Rush, King Crimson,ELP, Edgar Winter Group, Todd Rundgren’s Utopia and who could ever forget Klaatu?. I was rushing to leave for work at 6PM – the mind is getting old. You will notice I omitted Donny- Marie and Babs, as well as Manilow on your list of favorites.
Well, the music banter has been fun, but I would like to jump back to the topic – Metro Life’s July 7th Fam a lee meeting.
When Danny stood up to repent for doing the whole “Mike is gonna have to step down thing”, he failed to mention a very important item. Why was Benny silent in the wings during all of this? Do you think Mike’s stepping down “for a season” was Danny’s decision alone? What, suddenly Benny is out of the leadership meetings when decisions like this occur? Why didn’t Benny pipe in with his apology for doing the Sunday morning thing? When is Benny going to step out and say “hey, I too was a part of this terrible decision, and it’s timing, it’s not Danny’s decision alone?” Sitting quietly in the background while Danny takes all the hits, makes me wonder (and nervous, when I think of the reason he had to step down in Fairfax). This week I found out another 4 of my friends are leaving Metro. This place is getting pretty empty, and I still pray that they soon “get it” because I, along with SGM Refuge Jim, want to see Reform not total destruction.
Nauseated - You do make some very interesting points. As I read your comment, it does shed light on the ‘plurality of leaders’ actually being a plurality. Did Danny communicate from the elders or just himself? If he made the decision himself, why didn’t he run this decision by the elders? And if it was a leadership decision, then they are collectively out to lunch on this one, which doesn’t give them much credibility on their ability, discernment and aptitude to lead a church. And if it was a leadership decision how much say did Mike have to say as he was part of the leadership team? And one more thing on this and I will shut up — it seems that the shepherds (pastors, elders) had little or no concern for the sheep only their forced agenda because of the wedding. But thats me!!
I had to reach for the deodorizer after I read your post cause something was not smelling too good.
Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to get the attention of the leadership is to vote with your feet. SGM leaders usually are able to protect themselves with their ‘damage control isolation thing’ so no one asks questions or is put in line if they do ask questions. It seems this time there have been too many that have left and the leadership is forced to deal somewhat with themselves.
I am with you – we have enough destruction in the body and reform needs to come to SGM as well as much of the church in America.
N, You bring up a good question. Maybe someone will give you an answer. 4 more, huh?
Ok………….one more song lyrics to go. I heard this today and the Lord used it to remind me that we need to remain as little children. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
Supertramp – The Logical Song Lyrics
When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well they’d be singing so
happily,
joyfully, playfully watching me.
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,
logical, responsible, practical.
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,
clinical, intellectual, cynical.
There are times when all the world’s asleep,
the questions run too deep
for such a simple man.
Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
I know it sounds absurd
but please tell me who I am.
Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical,
liberal, fanatical, criminal.
Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re
acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!
At night, when all the world’s asleep,
the questions run so deep
for such a simple man.
Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
I know it sounds absurd
but please tell me who I am.
Nauseated, good to be back on topic again. There are people within MLC who are gathering to pray for a fresh move of the Holy Spirit, for the people to be filled and empowered, for a boldness to go do the things that God has called us to do without worrying what other people think, and for the pastors to have clarity of vision. So much more than I could share right here. I am thankful for these dear saints interceding for this church.
On another note, I went to see the new Robin Hood movie with my husband last night. I was especially moved by the inscription on the sword, “Rise and rise again until lambs become lions,” as well as Robin Hood’s admonition to King John that if he wanted to build a kingdom that would last, he needed to empower the people instead of grabbing for control claiming the divine right of kings.
“Irv July 18th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Nauseated - You do make some very interesting points. As I read your comment, it does shed light on the ‘plurality of leaders’ actually being a plurality. Did Danny communicate from the elders or just himself? If he made the decision himself, why didn’t he run this decision by the elders? And if it was a leadership decision, then they are collectively out to lunch on this one, which doesn’t give them much credibility on their ability, discernment and aptitude to lead a church.”
Well kids, here is real food for thought.
Since Todd resigned from the leadership team at MLC in January of 2010, and Mike was told publicly removed from pastoral responsibilities in June, WHO was part of the “plurality of elders” left at MLC to make this rather embarrassing announcement. There are only TWO GUYS LEFT! Now that’s a lot of accountability. Danny J and Benny P. What a “plurality of leadership” at MLC left indeed.
Still no elders, other than the teaching ones. So anyway, common sense would denote that both men had to be in agreement as to the what where and when. Seeing the structure of the Sunday services are preplanned down to the music DUH DUH and DUH Benny was not siting there in shock when this all went down. I would agree with Nauseated. Where was Benny’s apology to the Nash family in all of this???????????
My intel would be the same. Three more family units have either hit or about to hit the door.
“VIDA”
When all the truth comes out and real repentance takes place, God will turn MLC around. Till then, people will continue to drop like flies. It is sad, painful, and a black mark on the Body of Christ. Not a Happy 25th Anniversaryat all for those who have felt strongly about parting ways. Unless you are a part of MLC you would have to know that the caliber of people that have left were not people there one or two years, but many 15 years plus. Again, sad …… there is a serious cost for not listening to the flock, secrecy, lack of transparency, and sin.
I was struck by this quote, posted on that great theological resource, Facebook, this morning:
”For every one look at your sin, take ten looks at the cross.” Martin Luther
It hit me so hard, because my experience with SGM was pretty much the opposite. More like “for every one look at the cross, take ten looks at your sin.” In so doing, we negate the beauty and power of the cross, and forget that “the cross” should mean death, resurrection, and ascension in the same way that “God” means Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Vida… I also heard that quote while in my SGM church. Unfortunately, it was not walked out, it wasn’t reality. Reality was “you are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.
It’s one thing to quote someone or something that “sounds good”… quite another to embrace it and make it your mindset, your lifestyle, a part of your very foundation. And we all know what SGM’s mindset is regarding our sin… “You are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.
Hopefully this is changing in SGM, but to be honest, I’m not holding my breath while I wait to see change happen in the SGM machine.
Vida, don’t be fooled by shiny, glittery words just because it comes from leadership and sounds good, or is what you want to hear. You need to test every word that comes from their mouths. And watch for lasting results.
Carole, I do agree with you. I was just holding my tongue. I have had several discussions with the pastors about this very issue. I do think they are trying. I am in “wait and see” mode. Did you get to read the poem I linked further up in this thread? Here is the link again: “It Became to Me a Dark Thing”.
Carole said:
“It’s one thing to quote someone or something that “sounds good”… quite another to embrace it and make it your mindset, your lifestyle, a part of your very foundation. And we all know what SGM’s mindset is regarding our sin… “You are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.”
Well one thing a group should do if they really want change to happen such as with this is to acknowledge that is was wrong. Thus one would think that if SGM really wanted to change on this they would admit their past error or overemphasis. Sadly one rarely hears of SGM admitting that what they did in the past was wrong even if they do change.
If SGM admitted they were wrong and abusive wouldn’t that open them up to scores of lawsuits? Hence the dilemma on so-called accountability, right? To my thinking this is a huge sticking point in true, real polity reform. Ironically, the power structure keeps these guys paralyzed in their tenuous place of ultimate power and non-admissions, doesn’t it?
I’m honestly asking but that’s what it looks like from this cheap seat.
(Did NOT like Partridge Family and Bobby Sherman so THERE. phmmmpft!)
Well, I did, watched Partridge Family every week along with Bobby Sherman on Here Come the Brides. Proud to say that I never bought an album.
And Jim’s knock on 3 Dog Night?
“Golden Biscuits” was the first album I ever bought – played it to death on my portable Emerson Record Player. OK – so other than “Mama Told Me Not to Come” they were a pop band, and probably should have been left off the list.
And Jim, Supertramp? Best concert I’ve ever been to at Saratoga Performing Arts Center in NY – amazing prog band that no one ever heard of until Breakfast in America.
Jim – you will notice I left AC/DC and Black Sabbath off the list too – purposely – along with Ozzie- Bon Scott’s voice made my skin crawl.
If I can make a comment about MLC in Orlando….I was there from 1996-1998. they were a mess then, like they are now. I talked to 3 of the Pastors…Mike N, Mike G., and Danny J. Much to my disappointment, they were “sorry” but made no changes. I could not stay in a church that seemed interested in admitting thier problems, some of them, but refused to make any changes. Sad, if you ask me. very sad indeed.
Much to my disappointment, they were “sorry” but made no changes. I could not stay in a church that seemed interested in admitting thier problems, some of them, but refused to make any changes.
This really says it all for those who have lefted PDI/SGM. This is not just an issue of SGM but much of the American church?
Irv~ I totally agree with you, the American Church seems to be heading down the same paths as the european churches have. I wish i could find the article i read about the european church. It was had a great title but sadly it was a heart breaking story about how the church in europe had started down a bad path hundreds of years ago and is now reaping the fruit of its misguided good intentions. PK is a avid reader maybe hes heard of it. All i know is this, if we don’t get back to the teachings of our Master we may lose the next generation………
Suzie, I agree with you. The whole thing is so very sad. So many people deceived including and especially the pastors! People are blindly following, not thinking for themselves and being led astray. So very sad….. I am also sad for all the years that I was there. However, God has promised that He will restore what the locusts have devoured!
In know it may be contrite but to me it is about having a “Seek First” heart and mentality:
His Kingdom – the highest priorityof the believer’s life is centered on Christ, His mission and mandate and priorities of the kingdom of God (the rule and reign of Christ in the earth through His church) and
His righteousness — that believers understand their righteousness in Him and the power afforded to His church because of His righteousness to accomplish the first part.
It is beginning to look better for an August trip to the other part of God’s country:). Making some closes — all I need to do is get paid and we are on our way. Really looking forward to meeting you all..
BTW – Have you visited my leadership college website?
Defender, I got your mail. Hasn’t Mr. Canary responded? He’s been so busy bringing home the birdseed that I don’t know if he is caught up on his email. I’ll check. Loved the pic you sent. Beautiful country. You are welcome to scout out near our place any time you want. You’ll probably have some of my crew going with you if you don’t mind…:)
In know it may be contrite but to me it is about having a “Seek First” heart and mentality: His Kingdom – the highest priority of the believer’s life is centered on Christ, His mission and mandate and priorities of the kingdom of God (the rule and reign of Christ in the earth through His church) and His righteousness — that believers understand their righteousness in Him and the power afforded to His church because of His righteousness to accomplish the first part.
Well said. Thank you.
My distinct understanding listening to CJ Mahaney’s sermon “The Happiest Place on Earth” is that the highest priority of a believer’s life is making his pastor’s life a joy. Toward the end of his sermon he said that when we’re all standing in front of Christ for the first time, we’ll all be assembled around our pastor and thanking Christ for our pastor.
I hate to disappoint CJ, but somehow I doubt any Christians will be thinking about him (or any other minister) when they see Christ for the first time. The Good Book says all eyes will be focused on our Lord and Savior, the one who died and rose again and who now intercedes for us so that we need no human mediator.
Having been in a “church” cult once before and having seen how it plays out in the end, I think the Metro Life fanny kissing is good old fashioned CYA. This is damage control at its finest. All they need is a cherry sitting on top of each pastor’s head to complete the image.
I have really enjoyed your comments on this site (and Jim and others). You are exactly correct about the gospel. The good news is that God is not counting our sins against us anymore if our faith is in Jesus and His finished work on our behalf. “God was in Christ reconciling the whole world unto Himself, not counting their sins against them anymore.” And “Blessed is he whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Now in the New Covenant of grace, we have received abundant grace and the gift of righteousness and thereby reign in this life through one Christ Jesus, in union with Him, who is our life. It seems the SGM churches really do not know the gospel. Professing to be wise, have they become fools? I don’t think they even believe in a new creation from what I have read of their theology.
I had a Bible Study years ago in a home and a large group of Metro Life members heard about it and started attending (about 30 or so). It was great. They were getting set free and seeing how much God loved them and how He saw them perfect in His Son. Then Danny Jones heard about it and put an end to it. Danny divided the group of 30 or so people into two groups. One group was considered easy to persuade and they did what they knew to do to convince this group to no longer attend the Bible Study. The other group were more free and more independent and they approached them differently. I later met personally with Danny Jones to explain what I was teaching at his office and he just sat there and listened, looking at his watch, going through the motions so he could say he met with me. He had few questions. The next Sunday he spoke from the pulpit and publicly said I was teaching heresy and that he could not endorse my Bible Study. Some of that group left Metro Life and never returned and they are doing awesome. We still keep in touch. Saw one couple yesterday. Others went back under the rule of SGM. It’s sad what is happening over there. You guys are not imagining this. Have you ever heard of web sites being created to handle the fall out from a church? This the Lord’s doing and it is not gossip. May the Lord open their eyes to the true gospel of grace instead of giving “grace” lip service or may the Lord shut the operation down. Love you guys.
Jim:
Thanks. I was just going to edit it to read that it “seemed to me that Danny was just going through the motions” because I cannot say what is in his heart. Trying to be fair in my post. No problem. I would love to meet you and anyone else for lunch one day.
Thanks.
P.S. I attend Grace Church in Longwood and teach there. http://www.graceorlando.com
My personal web site is http://www.seeinggrace.com
Clark Whitten, the pastor at Grace Church is great guy and faithful brother of the gospel of grace. He was the pastor at Calvary Assembly in Winter Park for over a decade before he started this new church plant. He’s writing a book now that is going to be a blessing to so many concerning the grace of God in Christ Jesus. We are a young church, about 350 members and growing. It’s a great place to get healed of religion. Religion is in the business of sin management. A multi-billion dollar business. If sin is taken away, religion goes out of business. That is exactly what Jesus did. Now Jesus lives His own life through His sons and daughters as we rest in Him and we bear much fruit for His glory.
Just so you know, I am not a Calvinist at all, nor is Clark Whitten. I believe Jesus died for the whole world just as the scripture says (no limited atonement as SGM churches teach) and that anyone can be forgiven if they will only put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. Luther had a lot of things right, but he was wrong when he wrote that the believer is just “dung covered by snow.” The snow being the righteousness of Christ. We are not like dung, just sinners saved by grace. We are new creations in Christ. We are sons and daughters of the living God by spiritual birth and are no longer from below, but from above, just as Jesus said. That is the truth that sets us free.
“We still sin from time to time as we are learning to walk in the Spirit”
God saved me 28 years ago, and I’m confident that I sinned this morning before I turned off my alarm clock. I strive to be neither licentious nor legalistic-let’s get that out of the way first.
In regards to judgment, God chooses to see the work of Jesus when He sees me. He sees me as His child, a saint, one who has no sin debt, as that debt was paid by Another.
Apart from judgment (it is finished), He sees my sin, and shows me my sin, so that I will never take His grace for granted. He also shows me my sin because sin has consequences, and He want’s what is best for me and for those I effect with my sin. He also shows me my sin for…. 100 other reasons.
More importantly, He tells me who I am, His child, accepted in The Beloved.
James, I’ve taken one sentence out of context, so I might be misrepresenting what you believe, BUT, if you think believers sin every once in a while until they learn to walk in the Spirit (perfection?) you’re dreaming.
Jim, but didn’t Jesus say to be perfect as He is perfect? Wonder what that meant. Just asking because I don’t know the answer.
James B said:
Religion is in the business of sin management. A multi-billion dollar business. If sin is taken away, religion goes out of business. That is exactly what Jesus did. Now Jesus lives His own life through His sons and daughters as we rest in Him and we bear much fruit for His glory.
Beautifully said. I’m sure there are churches in America who aren’t in it for the money, but so sad for the churches that are. Sad for the saints too, who can never dig up enough sins to repent of -there are always more piles of it to go through. As Mr. Canary has told me often, you can’t just “put off” sin, you must also “put on” the fruits of walking with Jesus. If you focus on the putting on, you will be free to do what you are suppose to do, by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, your words are truly something to consider.
Curious so I looked it up in the Amplified Bible: Matthew 5:48
“You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus said this.
Jim:
I agree totally Jim. We will never manifest perfectly through these bodies on earth who we are inside these bodies (the new man) until we put off these bodies. I do not believe the scripture teaches that a believer reaches a state of perfection in these bodies where we cease to sin on earth. Not at all. On the contrary, we have this treasure in earth vessels that the excellency of the power is clearly seen to be of Christ and not ourselves. As James writes, “we all stumble in many ways.” No worries. I am not of that camp. Those in that camp are not only “dreaming,” they know not the scriptures. We are perfect within, in Christ, but that perfection does not manifest perfectly in this world because we “see in part” and “manifest in part.” And I don’t just mean “positionally perfect,” I mean substantively, really and actually perfect as a new creation. That’s what the scripture is clear about. Holy and blameless now in Christ. As John writes, “As Jesus is, so are we in this world.” God cut away our body of flesh (Colossians) and circumcised us by His own hand so that He could raise us from the dead and call into being that which did not exist before: a new creation. He left sin in the members of our body. The power of sin remains in our body. The mystery of iniquity is still in our members, our bodies of this creation, and it is stimulated by law still even as a believer because the law is not of faith. It is a mystery but all the apostles wrote about this truth. Now the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the body. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, blameless, with exceeding joy, perfect, because we are perfect now in Him. But the walking it out in this life will never be a perfect manifestation of the reality we enjoy in Him. Only when this body is put off will we know all things as we are known by Him and manifest completely and perfectly who He created us to be in Him.
Matthew 5:48
“You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus said this.
I’m confused. Guess I’ll go ask Mr. Canary. According to scripture, we are able to reach complete maturity in Christ. I haven’t gotten there, yet. Just wonder why Jesus said this if it isn’t possible to achieve it.
Sorry to hear your story but thanks for sharing it here. It is quite sad.
When you met with Danny Jones (in private as SGM says) did he bring up that he thought what you were teaching was heresy or did he just say this on that Sunday without trying to discuss this with you including getting a clarification on your teachings? Was there much discussion or him just silently listening to you?
One would think with all the teaching on going to a person in private etc. that SGM teaches including how they define “gossip” Danny Jones would have done just that or had some discussion. From what you shared above it doesn’t sound like their was much if any interaction when you met with him.
I’m not really sure because he never communicated to me directly about any questions he had about what I taught. I heard it second hand from those who heard the announcement from the pulpit and who then left Metro Life Church. I think it had something to do with the fact that I taught that God no longer counts our sins against us because of Jesus and that we now live every day with the gift of righteousness in Christ. I also teach that believers are new creations and that though the power of sin still resides in our flesh, that is not who we are. I teach that the old man (once joined to the flesh and in the flesh and in sin) died through the death of Christ on the cross and a new man (now joined to the risen Christ) is no longer in the flesh. We are not just sinners saved by grace, we are new creations who once were sinners and now through the grace of God have been made the sons and daughters of God having received the Spirit of the Son, who cries “Abba” from our new heart. I also teach that we no longer have a wicked heart, but true to the scripture and the promise of the prophets, we have a new heart in Christ Jesus. We still sin from time to time as we are learning to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, but when we sin, that is not who we really are. As Paul said, no good thing dwells in my flesh, but I am not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. I am free and complete and new in Him. I think their teaching about indwelling sin, the way they teach it, is completely unscriptural and breeds death instead of life. Our conscience may try to condemn us, but our conscience only responds to what we do. The Spirit of God, on the other hand, reveals to us who we are. There is a higher authority than our conscience. It is the Word of God. In this awesome New Covenant of grace and union with the living Christ, we find the great love of God filling us and His fruit is clearly evident. The true gospel does not lead to an ungodly lifestyle, as religious men fear. Rather, it leads people to look to Christ alone and no man and depend on Christ alone and no man. That may be what he really was concerned about. That is what I taught at those Bible Studies years ago and that is what I teach today.
Canary,
I believe that the Mt. 5:48 verse is a statement of the standard of God in the Law.
The Gospel is that Jesus took the full force of God’s punishment for our breaking that law.
We are now clothed in His righteousness, even though we are for a time still in these sinful bodies, the punishment for our sin has been satisfied in Christ.
Now I live, in fear and trembling, grateful for the gift of Salvation, given by God, and therefore seek Him first. Phil. 4:8 says “…whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things.”
Wow!, and there is no room for dwelling on my sin in that!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it CJ!
Oops! Just sinned again. (Or did I?)
James Barron,
Thank you so much! I need to hear that everyday!! Not as a mantra but as truth! 21 years of garbage to wade through and I really needed to hear that today!!
Dead men don’t sin! We need to look at our sin from God’s perspective – GONE!
I regards to judgment, I’m with you.
I’ve stated on here 1000 times that, while I believe that Paul was referring to is current life as a believer in RMS 7, we need to TURN THE PAGE, and focus on Paul’s focus. On God’s focus.
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becausethe Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can beagainst us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified. 27Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him. 32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!”
… 45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi,lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
…Hmmm…perhaps the punishment was the Father’s rejection, however brief, of the Son? Mimicing our eternal separation from the Father if we refuse to receive his grace? I’d qualify this as punishment, that’s for sure. 50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
James Barron said:
“Just so you know, I am not a Calvinist at all, nor is Clark Whitten. I believe Jesus died for the whole world just as the scripture says (no limited atonement as SGM churches teach) and that anyone can be forgiven if they will only put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. ”
I am not a Calvinist either. What do think of how PDI/SGM subltely and surreptitiously moved towards Calvinism that I saw happening IMO? It is one thing to announce and make a change like this but shocking how they went about doing this.
Steve240:
The meeting with Danny Jones did not accomplish anything because he really did not seem to want to understand me or my teaching. He just let me talk. I poured my heart out to him sharing the awesome good news and he just listened silently, pretty much. I left him with a written manuscript (about 50 or so pages as I recall, maybe more, typed) that explained what I teach for him to review. He never said to me that he thought I was teaching heresy. He only asked a few questions. We parted cordially. He never called me to ask any questions or comment on the written material I left him. The whole meeting had the feeling of something fake and someone going through the motions so they could say they met with me. He knows the truth. Then the next Sunday he announces to the congregation that he met with me and that I am teaching heresy. Jesus disagrees. He had to announce it to the whole church because at least 30 of his members were attending the study and getting really set free. They were talking to others about it and the word was spreading. The meeting probably took 45 minutes, maybe.
Pam:
Amen sister! The good news of Jesus is indeed good news! SGM leaders like to say they want everything they teach to proceed from the cross of Jesus, but the true meaning of the cross is the glad news that God has stopped counting our sins! SGM is still counting sin and turning saints to look at their flesh so they can pefect themselves and become more holy. The reason the message of the cross seems like foolishness is because to the natural mind or the religious mind it is ludicrous to tell people God is not holding them accountable for their sins. Yet that is what the cross of Jesus is all about! Behold the Lamb who took away the sin of the world. The natural mind or religious mind cannot grasp how that would lead someone to a godly life, yet it does because the same Christ who died for me now lives for me within. The power of the Spirit of the God within the believer will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit through faith. We are not changed by looking at our nakedness. Like God said to Adam, “Who told you that you were naked?” It’s all the wrong thinking from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The new mind sees the revelation of the Tree of Life. Christ my life within. SGM has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. I read their definition of the gospel on their web site. They totally do not see the new creation at all. I read C. J. Mahaney’s article about how to not sin while watching the Super Bowl. How to have the remote close by so you can mute it when inappropriate commercials come on, etc. Ridiculous. Just like the Pharisees, he is trying to manage sin. I thought his article about the Super Bowl on their web site was very revealing. They are anything but free and anyone who follows them will not be free. As Paul confronted Peter to his face about his slide back into legalism in Galatia, this web site is confronting the leadership of SGM, formerly PDI, with their legalism. May they humble themselves, as Peter did, and respond as Peter did so that they might find true freedom in Christ and help others find that same freedom.
Steve:
Yes, it was deceptive. I saw it too. In fact as I walked with Danny out of his office that same day of our meeting, knowing where they were headed because of the various teachings I had heard. I asked him, “Danny, do you believe a person must be regenerated first before that person can exercise saving faith in Jesus?” He was a little stunned by the question because we were not really talking Reformed Theology and because he knew the question went to the heart of that belief. He stuttered and said, “Well yes, sure. Of course.” I didn’t say another word. Just said good-bye. I told one of their members later that his leaders believe that some people are destined by God to go to hell and that there is nothing those people can do about it. He did not believe it. He said, “No way.” I told him to ask Danny. The congregation had no clue where they were being led and now they are firmly in the middle of it. The great error of Calvinism is that it distorts the heart of the Father. If it was truth, then why all the subtle moves toward this teaching. Truth can stand the light of day. Jesus said to shout His good news from the house tops!
Jim:
So true what you said about Romans 7. That is a description of a believer struggling with the flesh and the answers are found in Romans 8. I like what you said about focusing on what God is focused on. We are told by the apostles to “set our mind on things above, where we are, seated with Christ Jesus.” We are admonished by the apostles to “look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.” The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians saying, “We look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as if we are looking in a mirror.” In other words, we are looking at our true selves, our new selves in Him. As we see who we are in Him we manifest who we are to the world. As John said, “As Jesus is so are we in this world.” Awesome reality! All received by grace. All experienced through faith. That no flesh can glory. We boast in Christ Jesus alone! Thanks for your labor of love in providing this web site for the saints.
The word perfect (teleios) is centered around the concept of completeness. Being perfect is not about us and how much we follow the law but about the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice for our sins that make us righteous.
We are perfect not by our actions or behavior but the actions and the life and death of Christ (who was without sin). When we believe on the Lord Jesus, God changes our condition (new creations) which is changed from sin to righteous. If we are righteous in Christ we are perfect in Him. If we are perfect we are made righteous in Him.
Because we are perfect (made righteous) the glory of God resides in us so we are able to be the expression of Christ and His glory in the earth and we are able to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.
So we are no longer just sinners save by grace but a people made Holy and righteousness to carry out the bidding of our great and mighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ, to advance the presence and dominion (influence) of His kingdom to the world (Matt 24:14).
Teleios can also refer to maturity. We can debate (which Christians have for years) as to how we apply this. I believe in light of the completeness of Christ – maturity is more about our faith maturing in understanding of who are in Him and the glory of God that resides in us.
C. J. Mahaney’s article about how to watch Super Bowl XLIV and not sin is on his blog on the SGM web site dated February 5, 2010. Incredible focus on sin and evil. Incredible. Very revealing about the mindset of C. J. Mahaney. Sad actually, because he leads so many people, or rather, so many follow him. The article is dripping with sin consciousness. J. C. is nowhere to be found in the article, just C. J. Unbelievable.
“The meeting with Danny Jones did not accomplish anything because he really did not seem to want to understand me or my teaching. He just let me talk. …. I left him with a written manuscript (about 50 or so pages as I recall, maybe more, typed) that explained what I teach for him to review. He never said to me that he thought I was teaching heresy. He only asked a few questions. We parted cordially. He never called me to ask any questions or comment on the written material I left him. The whole meeting had the feeling of something fake and someone going through the motions so they could say they met with me. He knows the truth. Then the next Sunday he announces to the congregation that he met with me and that I am teaching heresy.”
James
Thanks for answering my question. What you are reporting about Danny Jones is so contradictory to the approach that SGM teaches and here we have one of the group’s “patriarchs” not practicing what the group supposedly teaches.
We hear so many times on this blog and the SGM Survivors blog that we are to go to one in private applying what is taught in Mathew 28. How hypocritical for someone of Danny Jones status to publicly on sunday use his position to call you an heretic without some discussion and questioning and interaction. I guess this is another example where SGM expects certain behaviors of others but doesn’t practice what they teach.
That must have been quite shocking to hear reports of Danny slandering and gossiping about you. I wonder if he feared the work that your teaching was doing and was quite jealous vs. being secure in Christ and glad that the work of the Lord was hapening.
Thanks also for your response on the group’s stealthy move toward Calvinism. I doubt that that many people within SGM understand what Calvinism which is sometimes callled “sovereign grace” (vs. free will) stands for. SGM also says they believe in Calvinism but some of their actions show otherwise.
If they say they believe in Calvinism why don’t they come out and blatantly say that God chooses only some for salvation and others have no hope of being saved? Why don’t they teach the implication of Calvinism that some of the children growing up in SGM will have no chance of salvation due to their not being part of the “elect” or as is sometimes said “predestined” for salvation? Why do they hold leaders accountable for their adult children’s actions including forcing leaders to step down when the claim they believe it is God who is in control of which of their children will and won’t be saved? This is all part of what Calvinism teaches.
Ive been reading your discourses and I have to ask you a question. John and Jane are married and commited Christians. John commits adultry and is broken by his sin. According to scripture, Does John have to tell his wife as part of the process of repentance?
James was the antinomian answer to SGM’s legalism. One extreme to the other. Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all. Trading one heresy for another is not the answer. James speaks a smooth talk but Antinomianism, leads to a life of licentiousness. “Heck – my bud Jesus will forgive me if I do that hot chick on the other side of the bar, so why not go for it?” fits in well with his teaching. Very dangerous place to be.
It would be sad if SGM Refuge suddenly became the James Barron “Tree of Life” rah rah club.
If this becomes a “Reformed Bad ” Joseph Arminius Good ” conversation, it will last 1,200 years and go no where.
I skip the blog a couple days and sadly come back to see Barron’s name all over the place. I weep when I think of the close friends who have turned away from any faith in Christ because of the heresy of “Antinomianism”
You want an idea where Barron’s teaching leads? Study history http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/antinomi.htm
Agelessdebutante asks an interesting question that I doubt Barron is going to answer.
It is a question asked by a couple that almost followed him into his heresy. The wife said “James, if I commit adultery, do I need to ask my husband to forgive me?” and James answered”No, it was done at the cross.” Greasy Grace James. Thankfully they saw through your shell game and walked away. I wish all of the others did. Where are they today James? What ever happened to the mighty “Tree of Life” ?
Broken and disbanded and seen for the heresy that it is, with shattered people left in it’s wake. “Hey, you can sin, Jesus will forgive you” Satan said the same thing in the garden James.
Agelessdebutante:
Thanks for the question. Yes, of course, as Jesus taught and James (confessing our faults one to another, praying for each other, that you may be healed).
Nauseated:
Let me try to answer your questions and respond to your comments one by one:
1. The accusation that someone is “antinomian” (i.e. anti-law) who teaches the finished work of Jesus is a common response from those who are Calvinist or Reformed because their covenant theology teaches that the law is to continue to be a major part of a believer’s life (contrary to the teaching of scripture). They see the law as the surgeon who exposes sin with the knife and grace as the anesthesia that makes this process of sanctification tolerable. Paul taught very clearly that we as believers are dead to the law, not under the law, free from the law, released from the law, etc. Paul wrote: “We know that whatever the law says it says it only to those who are under the law.” He wrote: “The law is not for the righteous (and we are the righteous in Christ) but for the unrighteous.” We are under grace and not under law. Paul asks the Galatians: “You who want to be under the law, have you not read the law?” And then he begins his teaching about Sarah and Hagar showing that these are the two covenants. Sarah (Grace) and Hagar (Law). Paul writes: “Cast out the bondwoman (Hagar, a picture of the law) and her son (Ishmael, a picture of the flesh).” The law is profitable for the believer now in the sense that we can see Jesus hidden in the law and the prophets (which builds our faith in Him) and we can see God’s opinion on things but we are not under it nor or we to live under the dynamic of the law. The dynamic of the law is that it brings the knowledge of sin and it is not of faith. The law does not become of faith now that we are believers. And the dynamic that renews our minds and sets us free from sin in the flesh is not the knowledge of sin (that was the law which caused sin to increase and aroused the sinful passions of the flesh as Paul wrote in Romans 7), but rather the new dynamic of grace which is to bring us the knowledge of Christ Jesus and our new selves in Him through revelation of the Spirit. We no longer serve God in the oldness of the letter (the law) but in the newness of the Spirit (grace). That is the apostolic teaching on how a person is transformed into the image of Christ and that is not antinomian, it is the gospel. Walking in the Spirit makes the believer the best law abiding citizen ever because the believer is not just trying to keep some outward show of the law, but with a new heart, walking in the love of God, the believer fulfills the true intent of all law by living out of the inner man, the new heart. Love fulfills all law Paul taught. An antinomian would say you can break all the laws, nothing matters, you can not pay your taxes, you can sin all you want because God has forgiven you, etc. That kind of nonsense is not the belief of true believers. The grace of God has appeared to us teaching us to deny all ungodliness and the Spirit within us is the power to make it so. Besides, I am an attorney. I practice law as my profession. It is ludricuous to call me an antinomian. I’m a lawyer. God has a sense of humor.
2.
Nauseated:
2. The comments about the awesome saints that were part of Tree of Life Fellowship are incredibly mean-spirited and just plain slanderous. I assume you are still a member of one of the SGM churches since you are defending them with such a fervor. Is this what you have learned from the SGM churches? Would your pastor approve of the way you wrote those comments? The comment about lesbianism is a reference to a precious girl who was a part of Metro Life Church long before she ever attended Tree of Life Fellowship. She struggled with same sex attraction as a member of Metro Life Church. We were glad to encourage her in her new identity in Christ and we loved her as Jesus loves her. We prayed for her complete deliverance and freedom. I have no idea what you are referring to when you claim that the good news of the finished work of Christ caused divorce and people not attending church anymore. The saints who attended Tree of Life Fellowship would be shocked to hear that you even see them that way. They are incredible people who are still bearing fruit for the Master as the look only to Him for their righteousness and their life.
3.
Nauseated said, “Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all. ”
Nauseated, your comment has caused me, who has already suffered terribly from having to be a Christian associated with divorce, more pain than you can imagine. It’s been hours since I read your comment and I have yet to be able to find a way to express myself to you.
I pray that you and the countless other Christians out there never have to experience what I am millions of others have. I hope you’ll never know what it’s like to go through this, only to have your own brothers and sisters in Christ look down on you for something you didn’t want with all your might and spent a life time trying to avoid, to the point of shedding your own blood.
Stunned,
who yes, is way overly sensitive to Christians who act/speak/write as if divorce is a sin or are at least as insensitive to those who are going through some of the worst hell they can be going through against their will …. or is it that Christians who have their perfect little lives have no freaking regard for those whose worlds have been destroyed and reveal their own self righteous sin by uttering their cruel remarks?
Nauseated:
3. Tree of Life Fellowship was a group of believers that came together to worship Jesus and be taught the awesome New Covenant of grace and to encourage each other in the faith. It began as a small Bible Study in a home (the one that the 30 or so members of Metro Life Church attended for awhile) and grew to where we had to find a larger place to meet. We eventually ended up meeting at the Winter Park Civic Center on Morse Blvd. with an attendance of about 150 to 175 people. It was a glorious time together in so many ways. We tried new things like a breakfast buffet (free) for the saints and visitors before the meeting started. We set up round tables with chairs all over the auditorium so that it felt more like a banquet than pews in a church. We had an incrediblly gifted worship team with guitars, violins, drums, etc. We took our time to linger in the presence of Jesus together as we worshipped Him. He was there manifestly among us, as well as inside us, and many were encouraged and set free from legalism and condemnation. Then my wife and I and my little son moved out of state. The saints at Tree of Life Fellowship pretty much disbanded going to other churches and spreading the good news of God’s grace wherever they went. My mother had brain cancer and I wanted to be closer to her in her final months. I continued to practice law in another state to provide for my family. After Mom passed away we moved back to Orlando. We were only gone for about a year. Now, my wife and I are elders at Grace Church in Longwood (now with two sons) where Clark Whitten is pastor, a dear friend and a great warrior for the finished work of Christ. http://www.graceorlando.com We still keep in touch with many of the saints who we were priviliged to get to know through those years and several are now attending Grace Church in Longwood. I teach at my church and continue to see many set free from the law and condemnation and the flesh to enjoy their union with the risen Christ. We have great, exciting news to tell the world.
Nauseated:
I hope that answers your questions and comments. Your response to my postings was so much like the way the Pharisees responded to Jesus. They really hated Him and tried to catch Him with questions so they could accuse Him. They called Him a gluttonous man and wine bibber, a friend of sinners who eats with them. They would pose hypothetical questions out of the law to see if they could find a way to accuse Him of not being true to the scripture. They slandered Him and opposed Him. They condescendingly said that the masses were going after Jesus because the masses were ignorant of the law. I encourage you to ask Jesus if He is pleased with the way you have responded to me, your brother, and to the awesome good news of the grace of God in Christ. Don’t be afraid to search out the scriptures to see if these things be so. Don’t be afraid to disagree with your leaders when they are wrong and encourage them when they are right. A wonderful thing is happening in the body of Christ right now and the sparks are going to fly because people hate change and they are afraid of change. The body of Christ is awakening to the amazing grace of God in a new way. His bride is getting free and bearing much fruit to the glory of God and not men. I pray you will open your eyes and your heart and see what the Lord is doing in this time. Jesus is awesome!
it’s just more of the same to those of us whose marriages don’t look quite perfect, whose children aren’t like the sgm proverbial ducks in a row, whose edges haven’t been worn down enough to suit the “Christian elite”. When someone comes along and loves us in the grace-filled way that Jesus said to, then cries of “greasy grace” abound.
I didn’t know much about “correct doctrine” and calvinism vs arminism back then, and I don’t want to know about it now. Anyone that thinks that Jesus’ grace is cheap is fooling themselves and doesn’t really know him. Those who have been forgiven much, love much.
.
All we have to do is keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, no one else matters.
The issue, as I see it is that SGM leaders, like Nauseated, feel it necessary to go around nitpicking splinters out of the eyes of saints that are willing to sit there and subject themselves to such splinter-picking whilst they give lip-service to being the biggest badass sinners on the planet while, at the same time paradoxically, they think of themselves are more equal than any number of other categories of people unaware of the plank hanging from their own eyes.
When Jesus took care of our sin by His work on the cross and, although we still sin, we are also daily becoming transformed into what He wants to make us, but with gentleness.
Blind self-righteous leaders that cause so much angst and self-doubt in people might be reminded that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
Please answer my question; what is the purpose of making such harsh statements with respect to divorce when those devout Christians (almost always women, hmmmmm….) have divorced only as a result of abuse or abandonment and the ones that divorced over less serious circumstances aren’t here and don’t give a rat’s backside about your opinion.
Were you trying to build someone up?
No, you caused pain in one of my sisters and you’re lucky that I respect Jim and this board and myself enough to have the self-control not to entertain my thoughts. Suffice to say that Stunned is a beautiful Christian sister that had no other avenue than to divorce an abusive man. Since then, God has seen fit to see this sweet flower blossom into an incredible dynamic woman. She is a blessing to everyone that knows her. I am so thankful she is free, I sm so thankful the Lord has restored what was stolen from her. I am thankful to be numbered amongst her friends.
Carole and I are happy to be among those who are blessed by Stunned.
The puke on our carpet has many colors. Nauseated has just come out of SGM, and is going through the inevitable transition in public. Although he had some strong words for James, as they have a history, I know that he’s going to feel horrible when he comes back here and realizes that he’s unintentionally hurt someone.
I just read Mr. Barron’s two blog entries on his website.
My brother, how do you explain these verses: John 14:23ff:
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Thank you for the explanation of July 26, 11:33 pm. The word you used in place of perfection, “completeness”, is what my husband explained to me last night. Whether the word used is perfect, complete, maturity, etc., it all must be done by Jesus within us. It is possible to come to a maturity in Christ on this earth but not apart from Him. I would suggest that men like Billy Graham and David Wilkerson would be the closest example I can think of. They are saints who are near the end of their earthly lives and have kept the faith. They are fininshing the race!
Mr. Canary also spoke again about SGM’s focus on the “putting off” of sin. If we do not move to the “put on’s”, we can never fully mature in Christ. That is why I could never mature in the faith while a part of that organization (not that I am fully mature, only on the journey towards it). So, if I understand correctly, we have the “complete” work of Christ within us. By His example and help, we put off the old things (fleshly desires, sin, etc.) and put on the new things (fruits of the spirit). We are able to do this because of the complete work of Jesus in us. Does this sound right? Is my little bird brain getting it? :)
Great comment on what “perfection” is all about. You are right on target. We are now perfect and complete in Christ Jesus and Paul admonishes us to not let anyone move us from this rest and reality. It is the true Sabbath rest written about in Hebrews 4. The essence of true maturity, as you wrote Irv, is a growing understanding and faith in Jesus the “reality” (or truth) and who we are in Him, created new by Him. The corresponding manifestation of that maturity in our daily lives is a self-less, sacrificial love that is a joy to give to God and others, because that is what we “see” when we “see” Jesus, the reality of who God is behind all that is seen. We are transformed into the same image we are beholding in the new dynamic of grace.
The awesome New Covenant that Jesus made on our behalf (the covenant being between the Father and the Son, with us as the third-party beneficiaries and not direct parties to the covenant itself, otherwise we would break the covenant by our actions) parts the veil and allows man to look upon the face of God in Christ Jesus and not die. As Moses looked upon God and His face began to shine with the same shining of God and he knew it not. (It is not a self-conscious transformation.) This is the New Covenant dynamic that transforms us.
As Jacob in his wrestling found himself looking into the face of God, yet alive, and discovered his real name, Israel, so do we, as new creations who are no longer in the flesh (Esau, our evil twin, so to speak), must awaken to see that “God is in this place (in me) and I knew it not” (Jacobs open door to heaven and ladder) and find our true identity as the sons and daughters of the living God, taking our place on earth as His ambassadors, fulfilling our destiny, until He comes again.
Jim:
Thanks for allowing me to respond to Nauseated by posting my comments. Blessings brother.
To all who have defended our sister, Stunned – you are truly loving saints.
No one can imagine what Stunned has been through and continues to go through. She is a valiant woman who continues to trust in the Lord while walking through a great trial. She has added so much to my life and others by her presence on the Refuge and the women’s blog. It is an honor to be counted among her friends.
Stunned, don’t be sad. Continue to follow Jesus. He has led you well so far. Any judgment you might feel is not from His heart. That is another thing Mr. Canary was saying last night as he read from Romans – there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. Love you!
And if you greet your brethren only, what is unusual about that? Do not the unbelievers do the same? (Matt 5:47)
Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your lifespan? Matt 6:27
Why are you anxious about clothes? Matt 6:28
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye yet fail to perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Matt 7:2)
Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (Matt 7:16)
Why are you terrified? (Matt 8:26)
Why do you harbor evil thoughts? (Matt 9:4)
Can the wedding guests mourn so long as the Bridegroom is with them? (Matt 9:15)
Do you believe I can do this? (Matt 9:28)
What did you go out to the desert to see? (Matt 11:8)
To what shall I compare this generation? (Matt 11:6)
Which of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the Sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out? (Matt 12:11)
How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and take hold of his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? (Matt 12:29)
You brood of vipers! How can you say god things when you are evil? (Matt 12:34)
Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? (Matt 12:48)
Why did you doubt? (Matt 14:31)
And why do you break the commandments of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matt 15:3)
How many loaves do you have? (Matt 15:34)
Do you not yet understand? (Matt 16:8)
Who do people say the Son of Man is? (Matt 16:13)
But who do you say that I am? (Matt 16:15)
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life and what can one give in exchange for his life? (Matt 16:26)
O faithless and perverse generation how long must I endure you? (Matt 17:17)
Why do you ask me about what is good? (Matt 19:16)
Can you drink the cup that I am going to drink? (Matt 20:22)
What do you want me to do for you? (Matt 20:32)
Did you never read the scriptures? (Matt 21:42)
Why are you testing me? (Matt 22:18)
Blind fools, which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred….the gift of the altar that makes the gift sacred? (Matt 23:17-19)
How are you to avoid being sentenced to hell? (Matt 23:33)
Why do you make trouble for the woman? (Matt 26:10)
Could you not watch for me one brief hour? (Matt 26:40)
Do you think I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than 12 legions of angels? (Matt 26:53)
Have you come out as against a robber with swords and clubs to seize me? (Matt 26:53)
My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
Why are you thinking such things in your heart? (Mark 2:8)
Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed rather than on a lamp stand? (Mark 4:21)
Who has touched my clothes? (Mark 5:30)
Why this commotion and weeping? (Mark 5:39)
Are even you likewise without understanding? (Mark 7:18)
Why does this generation seek a sign? (Mark 8:12)
Do you not yet understand or comprehend? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes and still not see? Ears and not hear? (Mark 8:17-18)
How many wicker baskets full of leftover fragments did you pick up? (Mark 8:19)
[To the Blind man] Do you see anything? (Mark 8:23)
What were arguing about on the way? (Mark 9:33)
Salt is good, but what if salt becomes flat? (Mark 9:50)
What did Moses command you? (Mark 10:3)
Do you see these great buildings? They will all be thrown down. (Mark 13:2)
Simon, are you asleep? (Mark 14:37)
Why were you looking for me? (Luke 2:49)
What are you thinking in your hearts? (Luke 5:22)
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not do what I command? (Luke 6:46)
Where is your faith (Luke 8:25)
What is your name? (Luke 8:30)
Who touched me? (Luke 8:45)
Will you be exalted to heaven? (Luke 10:15)
What is written in the law? How do you read it? (Luke 10:26)
Which of these three in your opinion was neighbor to the robber’s victim? (Luke 10:36)
Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside? (Luke 11:40)
Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbiter? (Luke 12:14)
If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest? (Luke 12:26)
Why do you not judge for yourself what is right? (Luke 12:57)
What king, marching into battle would not first sit down and decide whether with ten thousand troops he can successfully oppose another king marching upon him with twenty thousand troops? (Luke 14:31)
If therefore you are not trustworthy with worldly wealth, who will trust you with true wealth? (Luke 16:11)
Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God? (Luke 17:18)
Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? (Luke 18:7)
But when the Son of Man comes, will he find any faith on earth? (Luke 18:8)
For who is greater, the one seated a table or the one who serves? (Luke 22:27)
Why are you sleeping? (Luke 22:46)
For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry? (Luke 23:31)
What are you discussing as you walk along? (Luke 24:17)
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter his glory? (Luke 24:26)
Have you anything here to eat? (Luke 24:41)
What are you looking for? (John 1:38)
How does this concern of your affect me? (John 2:4)
You are a teacher in Israel and you do not understand this? (John 3: 10)
If I tell you about earthly things and you will not believe, how will you believe when I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3: 12)
Do you want to be well? (John 5:6)
How is it that you seek praise from one another and not seek the praise that comes from God? (John 5:44)
If you do not believe Moses’ writings how will you believe me? (John 5:47)
Where can we buy enough food for them to eat? (John 6:5)
Does this shock you? (John 6:61)
Do you also want to leave me? (John 6:67)
Why are you trying to kill me? (John 7:19)
Woman where are they, has no one condemned you? (John 8:10)
Why do you not understand what I am saying? (John 8:43)
Can any of you charge me with sin? (John 8:46)
If I am telling you the truth, why do you not believe me? (John 8:46)
Are there not twelve hours in a day? (John 11:9)
Do you believe this? (John 11:26)
Do you realize what I have done for you? (John 13:12)
Have I been with you for so long and still you do not know me? (John 14:9)
Whom are you looking for? (John 18:4)
Shall I not drink the cup the Father gave me? (John 18:11)
If I have spoken rightly, why did you strike me? (John 18:23)
Do you say [what you say about me] on your own or have others been telling you about me? (John 18:34)
Have you come to believe because you have seen me? (John 20:29)
Do you love me? (John 21:16)
What if I want John to remain until I come? (John 21:22)
What concern is it of yours? (John 21:22)
Can we focus…or are we going to open the arminian/calvin arguments all over again?
How is this encouraging one another? James –you understand, don’t you, my brother, that you are totally wrong about your interpretation of scripture? Your God, who wants every single person in the universe to be saved, does not make it happen? A God who wills, but does not act? A God who desires, but is never satisfied? What is he, impotent? Jesus told us not a jot or tiddle of the law disappears…etc.
Just an example of the tone lately–not an opening for argument.
My brethren, if you want instruction in grace, do not read the last half of this series of posts.
We’re infighting and lecturing and pontificating and rebuking and bragging and lording it over each other…none of which has SQUAT DOODLE to do with helping our wounded SGM brethren to find freedom.
Checking out for now–I’ll return later when we get back to work.
My dear brother, Nauseated. Please know that I don’t believe you intended hurt and pain. I have seen enough of your interaction here, that I don’t believe there was intent to harm or even any awareness of it. (Besides, if you had wanted to, I’m sure you would have included a tongue sticking out of a smiley face or something like that. ) I truly believe what I’ve just said.
Ellie, DB, canary, Jim, I appreciate your kind love. (Though a few of you and your love made me cry harder. And to that I say :-p) I guess I just want to see the church not act as if divorce is a sin. It is NOT. Abuse, murder- they are sins. Adultery is a sin. Lying is a sin. Cheating is a sin. Self righteousness is a sin. Abandoning your family is a sin. Running around on your partner is a sin. Neglecting your spouse is a sin. Being cruel to another person is a sin. Throwing rocks at someone laying on the side of a road is a sin.
But divorce? Divorce is NOT a sin. Divorce is a gift from God (study the OT law if you doubt me) given to His people so that if they are being neglected or abused, they can be released from such bondage and be taken care of and given hope and a future.
God hates divorce, you say? You’re darned tooting right He does! Cause you know what? He ain’t a fan of what leads up to it! What kind of a father would want to see His children live in sheer terror in their own homes? To be harassed, used and abused? Lied to? Manipulated? Neglected? Be treated harshly with no hope for change? He HATES divorce but He sure as heck ain’t no fan of having his sons and daughters stuck in the hell hole some of us have lived through due to the hardness of our partner’s heart. So HE gave us divorce as a gift.
Doubt me? Think God has nothing to do with divorce? Then let’s look at the cross and consider it from that view point. (Sorry for making ex-SGMer’s cringe. The cross can be a good thing as a tool in God’s hands- and not to beat you over the head with.)
Did God LIKE it when Adam and Even sinned? Was He happy about it? No, of course not. What was His answer to rescue us from the fall of mankind, from the hell of our sin (and from hell itself)? Jesus dying on the cross. Does that mean that God loved the cross and loved everything that had to go on there? That He thought the cross and what Jesus had to go through was super neato? Can’t imagine He enjoyed separating Himself from His son- them being out of communion for a time- let alone all the other stuff that happened to Jesus that day. I’d imagine God wasn’t a big fan of all the pain and separation at all. But just because He is not a fan of sadness, grief, pain, etc, does NOT mean that Jesus dying on the cross to release us from death was NOT His gift to us.
He hates injustice. The bible tells us that time and again. Yet is there anything more unjust than for a righteous man to pay for my sins? Nope! But am I going to say that that CAN’T be God’s plan or God’s gift to me, merely because He says He hates injustice? No freaking way!
It was/is His plan to set those of us going to hell, free. I thank God for the gift of salvation that came through what Jesus did for me at Calvary.
Back to divorce: He doesn’t like divorce, man he HATES it. So do I. You have no idea. But I also see it as a gift, created and given by God so that I can live without fear. (OK, so I still have fear and nightmares and I look over my shoulder some moments- even when alone in my own home- and let’s not even get started on PTSD, but at least leaving that situation was the beginning of healing that I hope I will some day experience.)
So next time we are going to say the word divorce and act like it’s a sin, let’s put our brains and our hearts into gear just a little bit and recognize this condemnation as coming from the very pit of hell. The kind of hell that traps really good people in a bondage God NEVER intended them to live in. Then let’s pull back, and give our kids, or our friends, or the guy who bags our groceries at the store a bit more love because we never know what they’re going through, or what they will go through one day.
Stunned
and a bit overwhelmed by her own emotions and that of her kind fellow posters
For isn’t that what prophecy (true prophecy) is–echoes of the future?
That’s why false prophets were (and probably should be today) stoned?
They spoke/speak lies, claiming to speak for God. Someone claiming to speak propheticaly should tremble under and be amazed by the awesome calling.
Such glory–in the timelessness of eternity, those pain-filled words echoed forward in time. Don’t think Jesus was going around making sure he said each prophetic word, fulfilled each prophetic action. He is the very timeless Word incarnate.
Instead, his life, death and resurrection was so pivotal, (indeed the lynch-pin of all history), that it thunders forwards and backwards through what we know as time.
Stunned has a point, God hates divorce not the actual divorce that grants legal recourse to spouses that need relief from abuse but, now listen (said in my best foghornleghorn voice,) now listen up…..because a divorce represents wrongdoing to another person.
What God hates is the abuse that some people in places of authority seem all too willing to wink and ignore.
Let me tally the score…..
God sees us as righteous through Jesus. The leadership over in SGMvills sniff sin.
God has allowed legal recourse for people in an abusive marriage but hates divorce because it represents serious abuse of someone….SGM patriocentrists get it all bass akwards with results the polar opposite of what is just.
Strike two.
Honestly, people, it boils down to the Golden Rule. If these fellows woke up with a gender reassignment, I bet they would change their tune.
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I am curious how Nauseated could make such a statement. Did he do some type or survey and keep that much track of all the former members of this man’s church that he could accurately make a statement like this? Just cause there might have some where this is what they did does that mean one can assume that all took this path vs. going to other churches when this leader had to relocate?
I need to add Joni Erickson Tada to my list of saints who have reached maturity in Christ. After 43 years of being paralyzed, she is now battling breast cancer. Fortunately it has not spread to her bones or lymph nodes, but the chemo will be dangerous for her. She remains strong in her faith, cheerful and encouraging. She has an unbreakable faith in Jesus Christ. She has influenced many for the Gospel. Certainly she is another saint who will finish the race towards “perfection”.
Stunned, I believe the issue of divorce should be re-evaluated by church leaders. It is unfair to put everyone in the same category and then call it sin. I know your situation. You had not choice but to get away from a dangerous man. Isn’t that why the three couples defended Esther when she left her husband? I say again that great joy is coming for you. Hang on!
I know of a very young Christian couple who recently divorced because the wife cheated. They have a baby. Then the guy moved in with his girlfriend, who is now pregnant. THIS situation is ripe with sin. These young people have presented themselves as Christians, yet have behaved as non believers. They are close to apostasy. In this case, their divorce was sinful.
When a faithful wife is threatened emotionally and physically by her husband, it is time to GET OUT. I think your above post on divorce comes from a woman who has walked a very arduous path, following Jesus as best she could. You are an example to other women who might be reading this blog and are in your shoes. NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. GET AWAY from a dangerous man. Even our governing laws support this. Any pastor or believer who would send a woman back to a husband who would harm her needs to re-evaluate whether they are truly walking in the Faith. Hugs, my sister!
DB
Nausted is not a memebr of SGM, MLC or any leadership team.
Steve:
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I can answer that for you. Metro Life was about 125 people back in that day and James Barron was never a memebr or a part of that fellowship. Ruth, the woman who struggled with that lifestyle became “free” if you want to call it that, at Tree of Life. She was then “free”to engage in a relationship with Donna who was married to Bill. At Tree of Life they were “free by the grace of God” to have there relationship until Bill could not take it anymore, and they divorced. Dear friends of our were on the fence about leaving Metro and joined Tree of Life. They had a joint meeting with James and Danny . When Kathy asked the question I asked James above about confessing adultry to your spouse, Jame’s response was NO! It is covered by the blood. When we got together with John and Kathy afterwards that was the key that made them bail out of Tree of Life. James built his church by sheep stealing. We know because we were heavily courted by people in the Tree of Life movement. Bill, Donna and Ruth are far from the only horror story. Brian and Sheryl, Ken, Selmer and Ellen. The people that heard gressy grace and then came back to convince others to join them There was no evangelism at Tree. The methodology for church growth was devisive. James, you know a lot. That lawyer gene is strong. You look for those who have been beat up by legalism. I see this is now your new playground. It’s a small world James.
PS I left SGM in December of 2009 on sabatical and formally no longer a memberafter 22 years as of June 2010. I have posted many times here and I am no great lover of SGM in it’s present state, so please don’t tag me in that light. I advise you all to move with caution. Satan wispers just enough truth and then twists the end note.
I wonder what the church would be like if we treated anger, unforgiveness, anxiousness,etc. on an equal footing as adultry, divorce, etc. as sin is sin —– guilt of one – guilty of all — I seem to remember that God hates sin — not just divorce!!
Thank God His wrath against our sin was satisfied at the cross. My problem is Christians keep nailing each other to the cross!!
Agelessdebutante:
You have really, really, really been misinformed as to the facts about situations in the personal lives of believers that happened about 20 years ago. Feel free to contact me personally, if you sincerely want to know the truth. I hope you find peace and joy again in the journey in your transition out of SGM. The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever. I pray that everyone who participates on this site will remember our Lord’s words: “Love one another, as I have loved you.” Blessings to you all, my brothers and sisters. It’s been great to talk to some of you by phone this week. Be encouraged. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the revelation of Jesus the Christ. Amen.
I was offline for a few days, and when I came back, wow, what a lot to wade through, and much of it wayyy out of the normal stream of this discussion.
Stunned — you are stunning. As soon as I read the post about divorce that you responded to, I was ready to jump right in. But then, I read a little farther and saw that you’d taken the words right off my page and made them far more eloquent.
Believe it or not, the person who set me free from being about judgmental about divorced people was RC Cola himself — Sproul — way back before SGM ever heard of him. We went through a Sunday school series in a PCA church, and he explained the dilemma pretty well. God hates divorce , yes, but he’s the one who provided it.
After years of seeing marriages in action, I finally came to understand that divorce is often just a public acknowledgment of something that has already happened in private. Sadly, many people I know are already privately “divorced”, but continue to cohabit due to their fear of judgmentalism from the people they love. How I love the church — but how sad that many times, we are the army that shoots its own wounded.
RT — you’re the bomb. You’ve got it going on, girl.
Next time lightning zaps my internet service, I’m gonna check in somewhere else. Too much to catch up on!
Our dear Irv, ah, not that I don’t feel like I haven’t already stirred enough things here today, but are you equating anger (an emotion) and anxiousness (usually a medical condition) with sin? It would seem like you just equated adultry with divorce. Hmm. Am I missing something or did you miss my post above? (Doing my best not to end this with “Boi”. But I know you don’t live in the hood so it probably wouldn’t have the same effect.)
PS. Like the “nailing each other to the cross” comment.
Jim:
After agelessdebutante made those serious allegations, I would ask that you would be fair to me and post the comment I sent to you for posting minutes ago. Thanks.
James
If you’re referring to an email, I didn’t receive it. Maybe you’re referring to a comment that was stuck in moderation.
Comments go into moderation at random-it’s not something I have set up. During the day, I’m stuck my computer (self employed) and clear as quick as I can. After hours is another matter.
Jim:
No problem. You posted it. Thanks much. It was my comment that posted at 9:47 pm. It must have been stuck in moderation. I just wanted agelessdebutante to know that she could call me directly if she wanted to know the facts. In her comment posted at 5:54 pm about me and other believers and Tree of Life Fellowship there was only one thing she stated that was true and that was that I was never a member of an SGM church. Every other single statement in that comment was untrue. Every single one. The problem with blogs is that anyone can say anything. Thanks for being fair, Jim.
I was merely trying to say the church qualifies sin into acceptable and unacceptable categories as far as how we treat one another. We destroy(nail them to the cross) the divorced and the ‘unwanted or unfortunate’ pregancy’ of a single woman but we accept and treat people with other sins much differently.
We are very good at destroying one another with our judgment of one another based on how we qualify or determine the weight of the sins of others. These are the sames sins past, present and future for which Christ gave His life on the cross. There are Christians that believe they are compromising God’s word if they love and care for someone who is divorced. Yet when they deal with others who are proud or arrogant or whatever they are so forgiving and gracious. Within SGM — if you pursue divorce then it is questionable whether you are saved and certainly you don’t understand the gospel or you would not divorce (regardless of the situation). Such manipulation and unrighteousness.
If you challenge authority you are independent, rebellious, proud, arrogant, etc. But if a leader is any of these things confess your sin, everybody forgive and move on. This is not right nor is it reflective of God’s love or His justice.
As I study and understand the scripture, our life with the Lord is about us being expressions of His compassion, grace, mercy, love, kindness, reliability and forgiveness in the earth. These attributes are what the Bible describes as the Glory of God.
My love for you (Stunned) is because you are a real person, a Christian and a sister not based on how good you are or how much sin you have overcome but because you are created in the image of God, that you have great value to God and to others (us) and the love of God that lives in my heart.
There may be some things the Piper teaches that I might debate but I love his description of how he describes himself as a Christian hedonist – “I am here to glorify God and enjoy Him forever” That may be more of my paraphrase than an exact quote.
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
I could not agree more James, any one can say anything. These people were my personal friends. I still keep in touch with Ruth K. as well as John and Kathy M. First hand knowledge and relationships are not heresay.
Thank you so much for clearing that up. I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I had thought the views you wrote were actually yours and I was beginning to worry that you weren’t who I thought you were. Wow, I was off. Thank heavens, Brother!
Stunned – Thank you – It was too late to be posting! A point of clarity in this last paragraph - His wrath and judgement of our sin was satisfied at the cross —
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
As he did years ago, all attention was drawn his way- but since this is about We-are-fam-a-lee…
I will again (along with RT) try and veer this back to the topic at hand.
Heard that another 5 families have left over the last 2 weeks.
How many Nathans does God have to send before they will listen? Don’t hear what I am not saying, I am NOT happy to see the exodus. I am praying that at some point they begin to listen, repent and change.
Think about it -you’re married for 20 years, your spouse leaves you, do you pray for them, or rejoice when they get cancer?
veering back on …..how many are left at MLC? And could the bottom line ($$) start feeling this exodus by some chance?
I believe the reason there are NO public confessions is due to the risk of litigation so I also hope that the me$$age is getting across in a variety of ways including attendance and their budget.
veering off….RT – I just have to tell you I LOVED all the questions you quoted from Jesus!
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love does not envy. Love does not parade itself and is not puffed up. It does not behave rudely or seek its own. Love is not provoked and thinks no evil. It does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. He who does not love does not know God, for God is Love. By this we know Love, because He (Jesus Christ) laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” 1st John and 1st Corinthians
Ask the Lord, “Jesus, have I really passed from death to life”? Or to put it another way, “Do I really love my brothers and sisters in Christ?”
Christianity is not rocket science. God loves you! Believe it, receive it, and pass it on.
Going to start singing bum bum bum..another bites the dust.
I agree Nauseated. I really thought after the last Family meeting meant to straighten out the whole Mike N and the repentance by Danny that ensues,people would have calmed down. Far from it. No one is buying it I guess. Two new sets of our friends are starting the new church hunt this weekend, not including the other 3 family units that have left over the past few weeks. Pray that God provides new stable church homes for them all! As for those who are still on the fence, and we know quite a few “heavy hitters” That God would give them wisdom as to where and when. the Why is really not an issue for any of us who have gone.
Sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. I want it all to be like it was 8 years ago. then I get my selfish head out of the sand and embrace what God is doing now, and the journey he has in the future. God is good! There is no reason to look back.
Gene Emerson announced a new Family Meeting on August 15th. He stated encountering God in conviction and empowering in a special way while away for two weeks in prayer, study, and planning, reporting a deepening, and he forecasted a benefit to those who attend.
The part of me who knows Gene is VERY sceptical; the part who knows God is VERY hopeful! If he is willing to risk losing it all, God WILL meet him powerfully. If Gene attempt to re-market the same old, same old with his smile, personality, and “sweetness,” Kingsway and the “churches” Gene oversees with remain in the “O.R.” grasping for LIFE, chugging along like other man-governed institution. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. Maybe I am a little tainted based on my years in his “church,” and my personal dealings with him. God is good and can really turn us around. I pray for you Gene and wonder if those you’ve hurt will be acknowledge or contacted. Don’t try to take a short cut around doing what is right.
Anyone from Kingsway on here? We would love to hear the results of that family meeting to get a feel for the direction SGM is headed in
Hi G.D.! I can undestand your scepticism and also your hope. You don’t sound harsh, just frank. Let’s hope the Holy Spirit is truly working in Gene’s heart. This could bring some good change if it is real.
It’s about time SGM was held accountable – a term and concept they have tossed around for decades now. But, it seems that SGM embraces the Jimmy Swaggart version of accountability – “I’m accountable until I don’t want to be accountable any longer; and I choose to whom I will be held accountable – and my decisions are subject to change.” It’s really rather juvenile. I’ve known them from their inception albeit from a short distance. Thank God though, it was from a distance; although, I have dear friends who have come under their spell.
I have a few thoughts.
1. I agree 100% with the message of Christ’s finished work. It’s as clear to me as the big blue sky. Why isn’t it clear to all those who love truth? The difference between religion and grace is not that of splitting theological hairs. It is as different as life and death. As James Barron has said “This Changes Everything.” It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. It’s quite another to oppose, resist and burn at the stake (metaphorically of course) those who proclaim Good News. This indicates a disturbing turn of mind with which I cannot find any peace.
2. Calvin proposed his doctrine well before the modern atheism of the Enlightenment not to mention 20th century naturalism. “Whodda thunk it” but Calvinism and modern atheism share the same corollary – that there is no free will. No other philosophy or theology maintains this position. Not many people bother to press atheists on this issue mostly because they are busy rehearsing the classic proofs for God’s existence. But as a polemic, we should at least note that Calvinists and atheists are joined at the philosophical hip. Neither the atheist nor the Calvinist can allow for the slightest hint of choice (aka free will) else their system of thought falls like a house of cards. The atheist cannot allow it (free will) because it proves the existence of the transcendent or at least the supra-natural. The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in.
3. Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.
4. Be strong my fellow believers. We should derive encouragement from one of modern’s most prominent atheists, Christopher Hitchens, who has recently noted in his memoir that his early boldness came as he brushed up against world leaders and policy makers and discovered that they were astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed. As well, the “church world” (quite different from the church of which Jesus spoke) is often led by inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy. We are gradually awakening to the fact that “the inmates have been running the asylum” and we common folk may well do a much better job because the spirited believer possesses and uses that all-too-rare ability - discernment (knowing the difference between information and wisdom).
5. When one soaks one’s feet in ice cold water until 4:00 am so that one can stay awake to write whatever may be flowing from one’s head, one should not be judged too harshly for producing “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Stay at it my friends.
Noel, you know that several of us here are reformed, several charismatic, several evangelical, several not sure, several lost, and all of us focused on SGM and the fallout we deal with either as a former member or as a friend or family member. All get along fine as long as we keep our focus on the pain and error and abuse in SGM, right? Your arrogant tone offends.
SGM is as charismatic as they are reformed as they are evangelical. They are a theological mongrel
.
What the heck does this new harshly toned reformed/arminian/whatever debate have to do with SGM?
(And, (honest question) how do you deal with Romans 8 and Romans 9? I always wonder about that.)
Christopher Hitchens…really? Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
Thanks for your observation about my tone, until the magic age of the internet usually only thought of as discerned audibly. As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.
And I do wish not to divert a forum or thread from its intended course. So, I’ll ask you (and others) what I asked Jim via direct email (when I thought my post was rejected; in fact, it had been lost in cyberspace). Here it is, copied and pasted.
I’d still like your take on my comments if you have time. I’d also like your perspective on exactly how much Calvinism has to do with SGM’s woes. How much does the doctrinal squabble play into people leaving SGM? Also, what part does Reformed Theology play in any heavy authoritarianism within SGM? Does it tend to support it or constrain it? In other words, if SGM takes its Reformed positions seriously (and it certainly seems that they do), will this theology have the effect of encouraging/enabling a cult-like control of people’s lives? Or, will it have the effect of opening people’s eyes? If it does not have the effect of disquieting the flock, why not? When folks leave SGM, do they shed Reformed Theology in general? (I know that you haven’t; but, I wonder if you have a feel for what others have done).
We probably agree that ideas have consequences. Although, I may be taking this for granted. If it’s true, what consequence does Reformed Theology have upon “church life?”
Allrighty then, there she goes. I realize this does nothing to cure my arrogance. (I often muse upon what might have been had I just buckled under, joined PDI/SGM and submitted to the corrective measures designed to deal with my pride and self-sufficiency. At least I could have had a more theologically-correct moniker for my sin than . . . arrogance).
Here is where I hope this may bring some balm to the otherwise hurting saint: Truth, while dificult to swallow at times, is the surest antidote for the issue that is causing the pain. Inasmuch as Reformed Theology is consistent with Truth, it may offer its own therapy. However, inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Truth, it offers its own exacerbating of the pain-causing problem. [I also understand that some error can offer a drug-like effect, numbing the patient, disabling them to sense the warning signs - aka "pain" - produced when we are in error or simply abused by others. 'Tis a difficult matter to discern, I think.]
Disclosure: I was raised Pentecostal and if I am forced to pick a camp, I would pick that one. Not charismatic. Pentecostal. “Holy Rollers” was the theologically-correct designation when I was a kid. Only God knows what it is now. As you can imagine, not a lot scares me.
If you guys allow me to participate, I seek answers as an observer more than as a hurt one or even “one.” For I was never officially a part of SGM. But, the body of Christ being what it is, I claim some kinship even if it is a congenial relationship with one of its pastors. We love Brian and Jill Vander Weide dearly as I think they do us. And we think there are no finer folks in the world, albeit somewhat hoodwinked by the whole SGM thingamabob.
You asked: Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
My answer is a typically religious one – “please trust me; I hope not to name names.” But, if I must, Noel Cookman circa 1976 – 1998. No big kahuna or anything of the sort. But, in my own little world, people did ascribe some sort of supremacy to me. I wasn’t smart enough to turn it into cash. But, it happened nonetheless.
If you can wait for me to tackle Romans 8 & 9 until I’ve had more coffee, I’d appreciate your patience. Unless you tell me differently, I’ll look for how this part of Paul’s writing deals with what we call Reformed Theology.
RT
I am not sure that I would describe Noel’s post as having an “arrogant tone.” One should also note that this Noel appears to be different than the other Noel who attended the Fairfax SGM Church (along with her husband “Grizzly” and shared how her 3 year old daughter was molested and how the Fairfax SGM Leaders seem to try and protect the 15 year old molester. That Noel’s story can be read on SGM Survivors.
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This Noel (Cookman) certainly posted some information I haven’t heard before about Calvinism. It certainly makes some good points.
You ask what does her discussion has to do with Sovereign Grace Ministries. For one, the part of SGM’s name that mentions “sovereign grace” is another way of saying Calvinism. For example I have seen some Baptist Churches go the name Sovereign Grace Baptist and others use the name Free Will Baptist Church. Again SGM’s name blatantly says they are Calvinistic.
I would say it has even more relevance in that Mahaney and other top leaders very surreptitiously moved the group towards Calvinism. It wasn’t like the group announced their change in doctrine and were open about it. This change was one of the reasons that Larry Tomczak indicated (in one of his books) why he left the group and one of the reasons why the group’s first church plant in Cleveland left the group.
It is sad that when a group decides on a change like this they can’t be more open about it. It doesn’t show a lot of integrity.
One thing that baffles me is that is appears that not many of the regular SGM Members know what Calvinism teaches including the possibility that some of their children have no chance of being saved even if their parents do all the right things. Of course as has been said before, SGM Leaders’ actions sometimes contradict their supposedly believing in Calvinism.
I am a man, or so says my wife when forced to admit it. And “Noel” is such a lovely name. And to make matters worse, my physiognomy is not near as lovely, not what one would hope from someone named “Noel.”
SGM/PDI’s view of pastoral authority comes from the shepherding movement, which I don’t think defined themselves as reformed. SGM’s use of the word “apostle” is a hangover from their early, more charismatic days, although they re-define the term every few years.
It’s interesting to note that many early PDI leaders who left (possibly) because of PDI’s drift toward their brand of reformed theology still call themselves apostles.
Glad you didn’t ask me about Romans 7.
If a new believer were to read this before he is “taught” by the elders, he would probably think that he was free and that the law of sin and death no longer condemned him or applied to him. He might even think that he was free to sin but would soon learn the simple truth about how our bodies are ministers of one thing or another and probably wouldn’t persist in this error.
Teachers have been able to disabuse new believers of this notion rather efficiently. The quickest way to do this is to convince the new believer that there really is no NEW covenant; that we are all under one continuous covenant and that sin is an ongoing problem for the believer – both as a behavior and as a point of condemnation. (This is critical to Reformed Theology although I’m not sure which letter of TULIP it fits under).
The sense that God still condemns us (or at least requires our ongoing confession and repentance) fits nicely into the “carnal” mindset although, when I was a preacher, such a message garnered the loudest “amen’s.” For all the bad rap it gets, condemnation is preferred fare for many a church person.
The drama surrounding my dismemberment happened before PDI morphed into its Calvinistic incarnation SGM. I would also lay blame on the connection between this family of churches and the shepherding movement.
I would also like to note that my husband and I noticed a shift when Larry T. left. I believe there was something of a balance when LT and CJM shared power. This power void was quickly filled by CJ creating the Sith Lord we know today.
I am somewhat intrigued by the connection between some legalists and Calvinism. I don’t think SGM theology lines up with 5 point TULIP I think they are zinneas or dandilions or some other sort of species.
One point that has been discussed before is that SGM call itself “reformed” but some of its practices aren’t what usually happen in a reformed church. The people that SGM call “elders” aren’t lay people from the congregation but the paid staff. Also I understand that most reformed churches the elders are usually elected.
Apparently SGM likes to call itself reformed for a number of reasons. One is that Mahaney can use that to mingle with the other RBD (Reformed Big Dogs). I wouldn’t say that the group being reformed leads to their problems including the reported spiritual abuse.
Romans 5:9
Therefore, since we are now justified ( acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?
Ephesians 2:3
Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
These are only 3 of the 32 times God’s wrath is mentioned in the New Testament.
I’m done-RT has just said everything I’d like to say (and more, as she’s smarter that I am) on the issue.
Guys, can we take a break and leave our pet doctrines (or hatred of the beliefs of others) at the door for a while? I’m really sick of the tone here lately.
If you’re here to pick a fight, please think twice before you post.
What about Col 1: 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel…
Death on a cross: the most humiliating and horrifyingly painful imaginable. Suffering, sweat, blood, strangulation, stabbing, nails, broken bones, thirst, heat, pain, isolation.
If there was no substitutionary work being done, why didn’t he just blow a dandelion, click his heels together three times, and sing Kum-ba-ya?
Perhaps we should be thinking about this: why is it so important to believe that there was no wrath directed towards us from a holy God which had to be removed from us?
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
HOW DO YOU SIMPLY IGNORE SCRIPTURE?
Of course his love for us drove him–to the cross.
How do I approach one who would step in front of me before his father?
With awe, trembling, love, desire, surprise, thankfulness.
You used the word “hatred.” That is precisely the thing that has caused me heart-ache here the last couple of weeks. Spot on. Couldn’t put my finger on it before.
This is good for SGMers to see? This helps them see the beauty and freedom out here?
Or does it just make them pull their heads back in and take another sip of the Cherry Kool-aid?
Wow, um, this has been quite the thread lately! I’ve been following it on my iPod Touch while on vacation but tiny on-screen keyboards do not lend themselves to much commenting. Thanks, RT and Jim, for your uber rational posts. Others of you, too, but those are the two that stand out most recently. I think it is tempting for those of us who object to a heavy focus on sin and wrath to run too far to the opposite end of the spectrum in reaction. Watch carefully which new doctrinal door you choose to take refuge behind. It is not necessarily right just because it is different from the one from which you just fled.
~ Vida
“Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Yes, I think that I should have read all the posts first. I didn’t (and probably still don’t) know where individuals stand on Reformed Theology, etc. I am just posting a few thoughts.
I can see that I am out of my league here on theological issues. My little brain is spinning.
I don’t hate anyone here. Heck fire! I hardly know ye. And I suppose that the keystroke IS mightier than the sword if my posts were able to come off as rants. Pretty cool. I wonder if my rants will come off as matronly admonishments.
I spend most of my time on political issues and conversing/debating with atheists. Again, it’s interesting to me that I have the same disagreement with atheists on free will.
Specifically, and almost verbatim, the confident atheist (who is necessarily a materialist/naturalist) argues that to us, it appears as if we are making a choice. But, this is an illusion and it cannot be so because of the the bigger story at work. Calvinists differ from atheists on what that bigger story is. But, they both seem to agree (or so I am finding out) that our sense of free will or choice is merely an appearance of such, it’s not really.
This admission from RT is a nice accomodation. But, it plays a little too loose with reality for me. Either I have choice or I do not. If I am deceived about free will because God allows it to feel or seem that way to me, about what else does God allow me to be deceived? Why am I deceived about my own sense of choosing? And why does there have to be another grand story other than the obvious? Faith exercised by a hearing believer in no way diminishes God’s stature or nature.
To a Pentecostal or to many other believers, the Holy Spirit’s working in a person’s life in no way is seen to disrupt or control a person’s freedom to choose. I’ve always imagined the interaction to go like this:
Holy Spirit: Hey dude. I’d like for you to meet Jesus.
Dude: I’ve heard about him but I’ve never quite felt the need to meet him like I do now, this feels strange.
Holy Spirit: I know. Don’t worry about it. So what about it?
Dude: You bet. I still can’t explain what I’m feeling but I’m already beginning to see Jesus as . . .
or
Holy Spirit: Hey dude. I’d like for you to meet Jesus.
Dude: Huh?
Holy Spirit: Heaven to Dude! Wake up. Good Lord, what’s it gonna take for you to get it?
Dude: Nah. Don’t care to. Don’t want to.
Holy Spirit: Not a problem. Later. (Maybe when your eyes aren’t closed).
How is God’s power diminished in either scenario?
Well, I don’t have much of an interest in debating the Calvinism thing either. But, I mainly just wanted to note how weird it was that I see some of the same things debated with atheists. Even the God-of-the-OT thing – atheists always want me to be offended or embarassed by God’s demand that entire cultures be eradicated.
I don’t really have a problem with it. Then again, I support water-boarding.
RT, no personal offense. I hope you are happily out of SGM and enjoying life.
To the Defenders: We had a great time with your family yesterday! Our kids loved yours. I told Defender I’d put in a plug for his homemade Sangria. Very tasty. And Defended, your pepper jelly over cream cheese was awesome! Think I’ll add some to my birdseed today…hee-hee
SMG IS NO MORE REFORMED THAN MY NEIGHBOR’S GOLDFISH.
Steve–I visited Noel’s linked site–definitely not our Noel, but hey! Not bad at all! Great picture! Welcome to SGMrefuge.
I must disagree slightly with some of the take that The Reformed Crowd (since you insist on seeing us a some sort of Soviet Bloc of the church–dang Francis Shaeffer and all those other morons) are the legalists in the American church.
For some time, I was in a Pentecostal community. That was the place where I learned women don’t wear pants, women don’t wear makeup, women don’t work outside the home, women don’t ever teach men or engage with them in spiritual discussions. Men don’t wear shorts (which, I must say, is a great idea in the case of many men), men don’t drink wine or beer, believers use the KJV only, etc. No rock music. No painted fingernails. Women and men don’t sit next to each other unless they are married. (Hey, wait a minute, that sounds a heck of alot like SGM!)
Sounds like legalism to me. I will therefore make this proclamation: all Pentecostal churches are filled and run by legalists.
Funny, found the same thing in an independent Baptist church later.
I know that certainly exists within some reformed churches.
Perhaps I have to redefine my definitions, and not paint with such a broad brush.
I worship in a free place, with passionate people who pour out their lives for the Saviour they love, in service, in worship, in missions, in giving, in love. When we’re not guarding the door against some slimeball wanting to run to Jesus, (we all take turns with that…who knows WHO might slip in if we don’t watch closely) we are busy tutoring the refugees in the complex next door and gathering food and furniture for their families who are fleeing here from Sudan. And I’ve heard that Emmanuel Baptist down the street is a marvelous place of freedom, as is the Episcopal church around the block. People love several Southern Baptist churches in town, (but you have to wear panty hose there, forget it, no way.)
Is it possible we are all speaking from our own experiences in the congregations in which we’ve worshiped?
Noel, no legitimate reformed church would say that SGM is in any way reformed. We’ve hashed this out endlessly on this blog.
What if I said I think they’re charismatic. After all, they receive “prophecies” at the mic, they dance in worship, they (many) speak in tongues, they jump up and down alot, they are led by an appointed pastor, and not by congregationally elected….whoops, now they just morphed into an episcopal model…they hold to apostles and a strictly delineated hierarchical polity, they have an approved list of books…whoops, they believe that God is sovereign in electing his people….just slid to the reformed side.
Noel, please forgive me if I misread your tone. I felt, as a believer, condemned by your comments. I see now I was wrong:
“Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.” (And if I replied that Pentecostalism is suited to backwater hicks and uneducated morons, you might agree, since that would be the flip side of your argument? Us academics and intellectuals at one trough, you the humble uneducated and unstudied at the other? Are you insane? All are welcome at the table of grace. The most simple grasp the truth of grace most simply. Pentecostals are uneducated? Steve, whaddya think?)
“The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in. “ Right–which is why we send out thousands of missionaries around the world…looking to guard the kingdom against the random nut job that might try to slip in. Your logic is laughable and fallacious. Perhaps some research is called for rather than ranting? Would you like to stack up the list of Pentecostal missionaries on the field right now and compare it to the number of missionaries who would call themselves reformed?
Whosoever believes in him is saved. Period. Why can’t we just agree to that and get to work, like the missionaries are doing from both sides of the discussion?
I extrapolate that I am the “astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed” from your Christopher H. comment? I’m sorry, are you delusional? Then, you make a blanket and snooty sounding reference to all those: ” inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
I’m assuming you mean Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff, right? No wait, those are simply the major Charismatic /Pentecostal morally bankrupt charletans who ripped off, and continue to do so, thousands of sycophantic followers.
Name the names, don’t try to squirm around them with some humilty-talk. Are you talking about CJ, or about Piper? About Emerson, or about Keller?
“As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.”
What the heck? Why the sarcasm? You might be under some illusion, my brother, that I am SGM? I’m not. I teach a slew of SGM kids and have become enraged by the spiritual abuse and oppression under which they live. I’m simply a Jesus follower, as are you, who rejoices to see a stream of my friends and students walking out into the light from the murky cloud that is SGM.
May I engage in conversation with you on your point 1. “It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. “ I’m sorry, but I believe you are talking about me here? I hold to the reformed traditions, and don’t have to work too hard to get around something as straightforward as Romans 8 and 9–I just read the Word. I hope I am relieved from this pretension soon, and know you hope the same thing.
For example, I simply read Ephesians 1 and take it as truth: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Or in 1 Cor. 1: 8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
I see here a BRAIDED mystery: God predestines, God calls, I hear the mighty word of faith, I receive the Holy Spirit when I believe the gospel of my salvation.
From my point of view: free will.
From his point of view: irresistable grace–a God who has called and saved his people since the original mother-promise in the garden.
This causes me to worship in thankfulness, and to be burdened with the call to share the gospel with the world, to cast the net wide. How do I know for whom the Spirit calls? Why do the free will crowd pray for someone’s salvation, if the Holy Spirit is not involved in the work?
Logically, if you pray for someone’s salvation, you are invoking the work of the Holy Spirit, therefore admitting your winsome spiritual or theological arguments are not sufficient.
If the Holy Spirit must be involved in the saving work of faith and grace, (which you acknowledge when you pray for a loved one to come to faith) and he only shows up if you call on him to become involved in someone’s life, doesn’t that make him at your beck and call, so to speak? And mean as hell, besides, since he wants all to be saved, can do it himself, and chooses NOT TO?
I think you must be sad in this: you believe that it is the Lord’s will for everyone to be saved.
You believe he can work in anyone’s life to draw them to Christ, which is shown by your calling on him to do so in specific cases.
So, if he wants all to be saved, and can do it by working in their lives, why in the world isn’t everyone saved? Could it be because there is a bigger story at work? A story so magnificent and so terrifying that only the Universe-breathing God could possibly understand it?
Concerning “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Could you reference to me the written work you have done to push back the effects of the fall? As a snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believer, making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality, I would welcome the opportunity to read the work you have done in the 21st century, years, decades, centuries, after the reformation brought clarity to the church, to build up the church? I wonder if you stand on the shoulders of scholars of all persuasions, yet contribute little except vitriolic attacks?
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Do you not believe that if the church is here in 450 years, it will not look back to this year, our books, our teachings, and say, “This is good, this is ridiculous, almost had it right here, whoops, check this out?”
You seem as if you would have prefered that we remain chained to Rome, buying indulgences, locked away from the Word that saves, allowing a man to stand between us and God?
Why the fury over the notion of a God who has chosen his people from before time?
Why don’t you rail against the God in the OT? I never hear a peep about his revealed nature there. Did he change his nature? This would imply he was not perfected, not holy. Yet you are not infuriated that he commanded entire peoples to be wiped out, with no chance of salvation offered? Men, women and children killed? What kind of vile monster would do that?
Can’t we just shake hands, and agree that none of us has it right? I couldn’t give a flying Fig Newton that your theology is wrong, your view of God is wrong. Doesn’t bother me in the least. You confess Jesus as Saviour. That is the litmus test. God will work our theologies out by changing you, changing me, changing both of us, whatever. He is high and holy. And well able to deal with family squabbles.
Why then, the emotional raging I sense from your side of the aisle? Why all the hard work you do to either not address passages like Romans, Ephesians, etc.? I fully accept free will–because that is what it seems like on our side of the dusty mirror, and because we are urged in Scripture to place our faith in Jesus. I did so. But I believe, because I take the word plainly, that there is something else going on on the other clear side of the mirror that I simply don’t comprehend. I remember the calling in my heart. I remember the day I heard him. I could not sooner have denied that call than I could have flown. Nothing in the world seemed sweeter to me than Jesus, yet the week before I wouldn’t have given him the time of day.
Let’s talk more about this…on the other side. Won’t be as much fun, though, since we’ll be perfected and in complete agreement. Talking face to face is so much better than contributing to our carpal tunnel issues.
Canary,
You are a fine host. Fantastic fellowship and food.
Our kids love yours too. I’m glad they all met each other. (Friends for life I think.)
AND, great fun target shooting in the forest too!
I’d say “Refuge party II” was a success!
To the rest of the “Refugees” here:
Y’all come out to Colorado for fellowship anytime.
We’ll all gather in heaven for our “Refuge” party someday. By the way, we Canarys can’t shoot straight. I’ve decided to stick with my dogs and a baseball bat if someone breaks into my house. Defended has quite an aim. So does Defender. We shot at Thumper (a stuffed animal). He was decimated. Then, I proceeded with Defended to walk back to our house and got lost! We walked for about an hour before I found my way again. Once again Defended, I am soooooo sorry. I’ll always remember it as our little adventure!
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief;when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
“The Murder of Thumper” (sequel to “Bambi’s Mom Gets Bumped Off”) left the poor thing only worth throwing away. The usual suspects are being rounded up. We do, however, have the Arangatang from Jungle Book who is going to be the next victim. If you and Carole get tired of the heat where you are at, you have friends in CO who will meet you at the airport and give you a really fun vacation. Got those guns cleaned yet, Defender?
Jesus ran to the cross, and climbed on it, a Hero, for his people. (side note from a lit teacher: Ever read “Dream of the Rood?” Written a zillion years ago, and the first half of it is some of the most profound theology ever.)
But make no mistake, ”he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.”
Is the heart of this that your sin is not so grievous that it deserves a punishment…which is why no one had to take yours?
You don’t need to work so hard to parse scripture–a child can understand the glorious Word of God.
RT asked
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Me again: I believe in the finished work of Christ. I believe in his Grace. I do not believe in “Limited Atonement.” But I was hoping that you would keep quoting some other Scriptures that talked about the how God had predestined and chosen people for eternal separation from Him, how he had determined before time particular individuals, millions of them perhaps, to be lost and not saved. I’m lazy – don’t really want to look it up for myself. A little help please.
And I believe that I am blessed not to have been in Calvin’s religous community where I would, no doubt, have been “chosen” to be burned at the stake by Calvin himself.
You keep asking if I am insane. Do you know me? Has my wife been talking to you? Unless you are enraged and really steamed, and trying to insult me, I don’t really understand the repetition. Peace bro/sis. In the words of Hillary Clinton, “let’s all take a breath.” I’m sure Oprah would be pleased as well.
Dang it!!! Those moronic translation teams need to check Strong’s more often!
They were running off a more sophisticated translation, meaning;
daka’ – to bruise
to crumble; transitively, to bruise — beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
But you’re right–hidden in the middle of the word “daka” IS the word humble. But its meaning is an active verb that one does to another, not that one does to oneself.
NIV: Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
NASB: But the LORD was pleased, to crush Him, putting Him to grief;
Amplified: Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief and made Him sick
King James: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
English Standard Version: Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;he has put him to grief;
NKJV: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief
ASV: Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
Norwegian 1930: (I’m Norwegian, believe me, it says the same thing): Men det behaget Herren å knuse ham, han slo ham med sykdom
My brother, I’m not the one who barged into the blog calling many of us here “snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believers (who are) making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality,
So don’t go all limp and “I’m hip and jiggy wid it and too cool to refute specific topics” on me, please.
Romans 9 does. You refuse to engage in conversation about the two chapters I put into play. “I’m lazy – don’t really want to look it up for myself” isn’t good enough.
You blew onto this blog with a general nod in the direction of SGM (I suspect you know nothing about them), and presented yourself as a mature believer who is able to handle the word of truth…I addressed your comments with a long response which you didn’t read (since you wished me well on my exit from SGM, and I clearly stated my interest in SGM is as a teacher of SGM kids.)
I asked your opinion on two chapters. Now you’re too lazy to look them up? (your own words, not mine.) I even threw in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians so that you could correct me. Then I asked why you have no concern that in the OT, he regularly destroyed entire nations without even allowing them to convert to Judaism. You don’t address that.
I am happy to let it go, to finish our discussion over a nice vintage in the new earth. You’re the one who keeps coming back for a last dismissive word.
You promised to set me straight on the Romans passages. I await your correction.
”10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.”
So let’s look carefully at that.
First of all, the word “yet.” Now “yet” comes from the root “Yeti,” which is a huge snow beast in Mongolia or somewhere like that. So that means that the first sentence is bunk or maybe it is the Yeti that catches it from the Lord.
Second, as you know, Jesus never had offspring, so obviously the second clause just means that he died, but not in the Spring. He died “offspring,” like “off-season at Macy’s.” You know: at Easter.
Moving on–”out of the anguish of his soul,” means, obviously, that his soul was never in the anguish…it was plumb “out” of the anguish.
The middle part is patently self-explanatory.
Finally, it ends with “he shall bear their iniquities.” Now any fool can see this is simply the prophet referring back to the original Yeti comment to wrap up his argument.
Not that it’s any of my business, but trust me Noel, as a history student I can tell you that Calvin didn’t choose for anyone to be burned. It does seem as if he tacitly consented for one person to be put to death, whatever that means. (Geneva didn’t burn anyone in those days, not even heretics. ) It’s been researched and everything. I’m not trying to be arrogant at all (I certainly don’t want to be femaled dog slapped by my boy Defender.) I’m not even really trying to convince you of any theological point. Calvinistic/Arminian or Calvinistic/semi-pelagian debates, whichever one this particular debate is, rarely end in converts. I’m just letting you know that that particular argument probably shouldn’t be one of your bullet points.
I too am desperately jealous of Canary’s Thumper thumping.
I am consistently flummoxed and bemused by how few people actually or accurately understand “reformed”/”Calvinistic”/Doctrines of Grace theology (opponents and proponents alike).
Jim – your patience, endurance, restraint, or (quite possibly) admirable indifference are stunning to behold and not lost on this observer. I thought pastoral life was often a no win situation and now I have been refreshed and renewed in gratitude to catch a glimpse into the life of a blog host who tolerantly allows random theological opinions to be tossed into the ring and freely beaten to a mushy pulp, beyond any possible or useful recognition.
Oh, and, “The pigs are walking! The Pigs are walking!” That’s for the excellent Jiggler who deftly alludes to one of the most allude-able books ever written.
Sometimes I think people need to go get a good breakfast before they post – or get their blood sugar regulated, go outside for a walk, hold a baby and giggle a little — step back and see the beauty of the forest, and take a deep breath of God’s goodness.
Please don’t respond to this with “you’re doing a great job”. Don’t ask me why, just please…
I really need to know what God wants me to do with this blog. I know that some sgm pastors who were abusive have changed their ways. I’m not going to judge their hearts, and I’m choosing to believe that God used whatever means He chose to effect their hearts.
Is it reform? In a sense, yes. Less sheep are being beaten.
Do I hope for reform in sgm? No. Not in the short term, as they are digging in their heels regarding pastoral authority.
So what do I do? I could post the “apostle” portion from T4G and dissect it, but to what end? It’ll change in 5 years.
I’ve been out of bullets for long time-I’ve said everything I have to say 100 times.
Do I continue to do what I’ve been doing, which is waiting for the next sgm train wreck, so refuge can fulfill it’s role as the sgm inquirer?
It’s beyond sick and tired-it’s what’s the point? Survivors is a great blog, and Kris and Guy do a great job.
These are the things I’m asking God.
If you guys could pray for Carole and I, that we would know what we are supposed to do, we’d really be grateful.
Jim, I can see how this is a difficult decision. You’re weary of it all. That’s understandable. I don’t know what the right thing is but you will figure it out. Praying for you today.
Jim,
From here it looks like you & Carole need a vacation in Colorado.
I little time in “God’s Country” to seek Him for your next “Marching orders”.
I just checked, Frontier has Orlando – Denver direct flights.
$219.70 round trip. Friday 13 Aug, return Monday 16 Aug.
Shall I click the “reserve” button??????
There is an Arangatang loose in the forest near Canary’s nest that needs your attention.
(I’ll provide the gun.)
Carole, bring a compass, I’ll provide a map. (In case Canary takes you on a “hike”.)
Defender, that was funny! Maybe you guys can buy me a pretty compass for my birthday in November. Or I’ll start taking chalk with me to mark trees as we go. If it rains, I’m in trouble…p.s. your wife was a real trooper!
RT,
If I recall correctly where you are, Frontier has flights from Newport News, or Washington (DC). The DC route is Direct to Denver. (Best price $245.90 Round Trip.)
(Picture me waving a bottle of Sangria for you.)
Gotta hurry before school starts.
PK,
HEY! (Knock Knock (from the inside of your computer screen))
You there?
You & Irv get your wives and get Jim & Carole to come and meet us up here in CO.
(I’m coaxing RT too.)
We’ll get a Refuge party going one way or another.
Anybody else in?
C’mon Jim.
Give me a little smile. Ya know ya want to come.
We’ll talk about the future of the Refuge.
Maybe do a little “tag team” hosting.
You haven’t eaten good preserves til you’ve tried Defended’s homemade jam. Had the cherry yesterday – yummy! I won’t mention sangria (oops, darn…I just did).
Taking note–I agree. We only know what we’re steeped in. I never knew grace until I hit the PCA. Many from the PCA never knew grace until the hit the Assemblies of God. Many AG found grace in the SBC. God is God. His gospel is pre-eminent. But don’t start attacking what you’ve only heard rumors about.
DB–pin it on. You get the gold star!
Jim–you are a great blog host…even if you are sick and tired of it.
PK–where the heck are ya, kid?
Gotta go watch the gate, now, it’s my turn to keep the ungodly pagans away from the altar of grace. (We reformed types have a huge matrix that assigns us to certain days to make sure no repentent broken sinner-type creeps in and flings himself on the mercy seat, don’t ya know. That’s probably where PK is right now–doing that Predestined Knight thing.)
If this is your favorite beach area, maybe y’all should come down off the mountain and come here. Cheaper into Richmond than Denver….and lots of SGMish people around here. One we could even lure up from her SC digs, right BH?
Actually, you’ve inspired me. I’ve got a big house party at the Rivah this weekend.
Mrs. PK here. Although I really hate to answer for my hubs, I may take a stab at it this time. He’s still here, still kickin’. Still fighting for Disability. Still awaiting more surgery. Still going to school. Still fighting for truth, justice, and….the Lord’s way.
And if he didn’t have enough to do, now I’ve roped him into helping me in my latest let’s-try-this-to-make-some-extra-money scheme: selling jewelry. He doesn’t actually do any selling per se, but I drag him along to some of the weekend public events and such where I try to hawk my wares. He’s mostly there for moral support. Oh and booth assembly, transportation and general maintenance of all my accoutrements. But mostly: security detail. He says he enjoys doing this and hanging out with me, but I’m sure he’d rather be out with his brothers shooting something in the desert. Or criminally-profiling bad guys. Or writing his book.
He’s still carrying the fire (if you’ve seen the movie THE ROAD you’ll get this; if not, go rent the movie & enjoy).
After he gave an apparently impassioned verbal presentation in one of his classes (subject was…? the death penalty I think), his teacher held him over after class and begged him to consider going to law school. Not necessarily to become a lawyer, but to open up a wider range of employment opportunities for him…a topic of prayer for our household now. [ Heck, we’d just be pleased to have two incomes again! ]
One of our friends on Facebook broached the topic of a possible mosque being built near 9-11 Ground Zero site, and PK took a turn at the ultra-liberals in that debate. Now he has a new batch of adoring fans on FB…and so it goes. Still carrying the fire.
But, I know he’s tired. We both are (Jim & Carole, we understand…!). He says we need a vacation. To which I answer, I’m going to have to sell a whole lot more earrings…!
Personally I think “Refuge” has served a tremendous purpose and has brought a magnifying glass to a ministry that desperately needed some outside “light” and influence. There definately has been change at SGM. Not complete, not across the board, but from where I sit , headed in the right direction. I am sure there are still many issues that still need to be resolved, and I KNOW that there are many people who are still hurt and are struggling, but possibly it’s time to “dim the lights” of Refuge for a season.
To your point, you probably need some time away from the board. Refuge helped me realize I wasn’t nuts about what I was experiencing. Refuge helped point me back to the Lord. But after awhile, I needed to get away from Refuge to a) begin to forgive those that hurt me b) to look at how I hadn’t helped the situation from a godly perspective and c) to just move on in my life.
I still stop by Refuge every so often to see if there are any volcanos erupting in SGM land. Maybe you can keep the site open (as a reminder to SGM that its still here and to warn those to look out for any reemergance of issues), but stop allowing any on-going postings . People could still email you with stories but maybe you only post those that people need to know about. Update the site once a week (if necessary) instead of being tied to it all of the time. If things get out of hand then reopen it to how it operates today.
I think SGMRefuge has served a great and godly purpose. It’s yours to do with it what you wish. For me though, my two cents is to make it a static site and only update it as you see fit.
I have a question: WHO decides, within a congregation or even within SGM whether or not change occurs? Or how much? From what I seem to understand within metro, danny is sorry and Benny isn’t. Or at least B is silent, if not sorry. Or does Dan speak for Ben?
And what of other places? how much, exactly, is changed in the polity?
And is it possible for change to happen within that top-down structure? Really?
If so what kind?
I hear of hints, such as Mike’s hints. Or declarations: There definately has been change at SGM. (sic)
Ok, Mike…or anyone,…exactly WHAT has changed? Specifically? How?
When was said change announced? How was it addressed? How was the error that is (supposedly) no longer happening addressed?
I hope someone, somewhere will be specific. I’m really and truly asking.
It’s always helpful when believers are able to more clearly see Christ, for eyes to be opened to the indescribable grace of God in Him.
I believe that when the message becomes clear, issues (church polity and practice and any abuse that results, etc) also become clear. Likewise, until the gospel itself becomes clear to us, any number of issues will function as clouds that obscure the sun.
If we see ourselves as the habitation of “indwelling sin” we will be hard pressed not to lean toward some form of behavior modification aka “discipleship.” This “indwelling sin” cannot be reconciled to a holy God and this opens the door to a great many misunderstandings about the message.
If Christ was “made sin” for us and if the offense (sin/Christ) was nailed to the tree and if Jesus announced “it is finished” then all these programs of sin management, whether administered abusively or tenderly, is a testimony against Christ – Paul would say “go ahead and emasculate yourselves” for Christ will be of no benefit to you if you submit again to the Law.
I like what an old buddy, Scotty Todd (now face to face with Christ), used to say. “Billy Graham has taught us that Christ died FOR us. And this is wonderful news. But, the gospel is that Christ died AS us. And this is incredible LIFE.”
There are very few ways a believer can be condemned. He is no longer condemned by sin for it has no power over him. He is no longer condemned by God. He is no longer condemned or “convicted” by the Holy Spirit for sin (for the Holy Spirit only convicts/convinces the world of sin and even then only the specific sin of not believing on the Son). One of the only ways I know (maybe the only way) for a believer to be condemned (albeit it not by God) is to not discern the Lord’s Body in relation to eating the Lord’s Supper. (I used to think the unworthiness had to do with unconfessed sin. I never could get that just right). But, the focus of the mind during the Lord’s Supper is not upon sin but upon rightly discerning the Lord’s Body (in context it speaks of the Lord’s Body as He was being crucified).
Until we see His body, specifically what was going on in His body at the crucifixion – that we died with Him and by that death have passed through judgment into LIFE, we take condemnation into ourselves by eating the Lord’s Supper; because, the only other way to understand the Lord’s Supper (wrongly I think) would be to see it as rehearsing all over again the offering up of a sacrifice for sin or as Protestants might understand it, keeping short accounts with God through confession and repentance of sins. No wonder so many Christians feel condemned. This sense of condemnation is the psychological permission an abuser needs to control us.
If we accept the premise of “indwelling sin,” I see no way out of the cycle.
The Refuge has played a tremendous part in shining the light of truth on a very dark and abusive organization. Until that organization comes clean, repents, and changes direction, there will be a continued need for a forum such as this.
The first goal of any abusive regime is to stifle dissent, and I’m sure SGM would like nothing better than to silence the Refuge and its many voices of freedom.
In addition to this forum for dissent, the healing and ministry that goes on here is of value beyond measure.
I hope you will continue the work you have so selflessly undertaken here until all the abuse and faulty doctrine within SGM has been abolished.
IMO, if it matters, I think Defender would make a great moderator/co-moderator. There are lots of hurting people coming out every week from sgm, I hope that the Refuge will be there for them. It’s just not the same as a static site.
Quizzler, I’m with you. I think that if this voice went silent the “change” I keep hearing about would stop for sure.
Jim, I’m praying for you and Carole. May God lead you, make your path clear and straight. He alone knows but He is faithful and will be found by you, I’m sure.
Thanks, Ellie…Defender has tons of compassion for those who are hurting. That’s for sure. But Jim’s unique position of having inside connections is something Defender hasn’t been allowed to maintain, since he was sent packing….or Shanked, as we say. So there would be no inside info or perspective.
canary August 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Anyone know how the family at Metro Life is doing? Is anything getting straightened out?
No….. 2 other family units left last week. The fall out continues. One family 20 plus years, one family 15 plus years. Close friend “involved” says it looks like a morgue when the kids leave for children ministry. Repentance and change had yet to have a full effect at MLC. People are still slowly leaving. The cool thing < if you can consider this a good thing> God is taking those gifted folks and planting them in churches that want and need and WILL USE those gifts. To God be the Glory. Man can not hold back the hand of the Lord. He will use his people!!!!!!!!!! So many gifted people were passed over for so many years!
WOW! I have been reading over the posts; you guys really know how to debate an issue with lots of passion and care though. I didn’t know whether to jump in or hide…(just kiddin)
Needin hope
Dear Jim,
I am praying for you and Carole to hear God’s will clearly for the blog and your participation in it. I am sure that no one here wants you out of God’s will. You have played a huge role in exposing evil within SGM and for that I will always be grateful to you and Carole!
As far as change…..I continually hear that SG Chesapeake is a different place now but then I hear from others who are still in that really, nothing has changed. I had hoped that things were really different there but then I hear Brett’s message on the prodigal and those who have left and those who have left and returned, I realized, NO things are not different. The arrogance and judgmentalism are still alive and thriving within those walls. Without refuge and survivors, it may only be a matter of time before the abuse and control are in full blown overdrive once again. However, this is not our call.
This battle belongs to the Lord, not to one person and not to one blog.
God chooses those whom He wishes to be His generals, His armorbearers, and His warriors. We must first and foremost get our marching orders from God. If He says continue fighting then we must obey. If He says I want you to rest now, then we must obey.
This has been such a huge battle for many of us and sadly one that is not over. The sad truth is that it may never be over … but we must each one seek the Lord for His orders and His timing. I absolutely belief He wants us each one to move forward in all that He has for us. He does not want us held in bondage by the SGM machine, either inside the machine or outside. For those of us out, He has brought a wonderful deliverance and has set us free from SGM so that we might live in the fullness of Jesus Christ and fulfill the wonderful destinies that He has for each of us. If managing this blog or even participating in the blog holds us under the bondage of SGM then I believe that God would say that we are to move on for He has set us free for LIBERTY and LIFE!
Therefore Jim I pray that you and Carole go forth in peace – whether you continue with the blog or whether you go. I pray that you hear God’s voice clearly and that He gives you clarity and direction for the plans and purposes He has for your life.
Jim and Carole
I hope you both hear from the Lord on the direction you should take for the blog.
I will echo what others have said. I think there is a need for blogs like this and Survivors. I am sure that many SGM Leaders are a lot more reluctant to do questionable actions when they know there is a risk of their actions being shared on this blog and the Survivors blog. These blogs keep the leadership in check to some degree. Hopefully this blog and others will continue to do that.
One thing valuable you have Jim is your contacts. Maybe you could still do that part and maybe even write postings but let someone else moderate the blog?
Unfortunately these blogs haven’t produced IMO soul searching and seeking God on the part of SGM Leaders such as their going to God and asking what changes God might want them to make in their organization. The SGM Leaders almost seem obstinate like where Jesus said that if the miracles He did happened in Gentile Cities they would have repented in “sackcloth and ashes.” As one hears of long time members leaving and contributions being down one would think there would be more soul searching and seeking God but sadly that doesn’t seem to be happening.
One may hear of individual cases where admittance of wrongs and some reconciliation happening but again one doesn’t hear of them asking what is the root that would cause some of the abuse mention to happen.
What can I say about Refuge? At the risk of being a broken record, telling the same facts over again, please indulge me to reiterate my story briefly. 21 years ago, when my beautiful grown daughters were babies and toddlers, we were devastated by our PDI experience. Our little family was torn away from those who had promised to live the “shared life” we were taught about in foundations classes. Our understanding of the grace of God was compromised and shaken to its roots. We struggled, we ached, we were lonely for YEARS. We were afraid. Afraid they were right and we were opposing God by opposing their right doctrine. It was a lonely, miserable time. But our God is faithful and slowly, painstakingly, He picked us up out of our sackcloth and ashes, cleaned us, healed us, and got us back on His path. I will never forget it. Ever.
Decades went by with family members still involved with PDI/SGM. We were necessarily estranged from them in some measure because SGM requires that of its people. So even though we were free, healed and enjoying the life of grace and intimacy that God intended, more years were going by with SGM robbing us of precious time with our extended family. Then the inevitable happened, my family saw the SGM error at last, and all have left the building for good.
During my extended family’s trauma days with SGM, I found the blogs. I met these dear, dear folks who know EXACTLY what I am talking about when I share my experiences. And I understand them as well. I saw that the SGM errors were not limited to MLC, but were nationwide and bore striking resemblences to one another. And more importantly, I saw a chance for the Lord’s Redemption, a way He could take our locust years and use what we learned there to lend a hand to others curently in the same boat. How wonderful! How thankful I am!
It has been a particular blessing to interact with Jim and Carole here. You have become very dear to me. I am so glad you are both not only well and whole and feeling free to move forward, but also have been in the unique position to make inroads with SGM leadership. I will be praying for God’s Will to be clear to you and for peace. Whatever the decision, my response is the same. THANK YOU. WE LOVE YOU.
Jim,
If it wasn’t for this blog and the wonderful friends I’ve made on the blog, I would be on a therapist’s couch. I have no friends left from 20+ years in sgm. When we were thinking of leaving, I kept second guessing myself in moments of weakness. Your blog helped me to see the abuse and the hope from posters here. Could there be a way like Steve said and get a few who are on constantly that would be willing to give a hand? Is that not an option? What I mean is, I have a hard time giving over or delegating something that is my “baby”.
Just a suggestion.
Let me address my private relationship with some SGM pastors.
I have a close relationship with a sgm sr p. CJ is aware of this, and this man and I have worked together (him doing the work) in bringing reconciliation between some pastors and some ex members. He is not a fan of the blog, and is not a source of inside info that I receive. He is above reproach in this regard. Because of our working together, I’ve been privy to some inside stuff that will never be seen on this blog. For leaders in SGM to let me into their world for the sake of pursuing reconciliation is a huge risk on their part, as I have this little blog….
I would never betray that trust.
The inside stuff I get (and post) is because of the blog. There are some leaders in sgm who have given me info because they too want to see change.
I just want to ensure that there is no confusion, as these relationships fall into two different categories.
Lawrence, thanks for the word up on Calvin, Geneva and burning at the stake. You’re right inasmuch as Calvin’s actions in this regard should not be a MAJOR “bullet point.” We have enough of Calvin in Calvinism to resist. But, does one not at least take pause at the thought?
DB, I’m not sure if you think Lawrence or me to be a “troll.” I would only point out that I use my real name, you can google me or find me at http://www.TheMortgageInstitute.com (my business website) or at http://noelcookman.blogspot.com/ which comes up when you click on my name and soon at http://www.NoelCookman.com. I can, however, relate to your sense of pride upon discerning someone else’s tactic or motive on the internet. It is truly a remakable achievement.
Peace and Blessings my Friend.
And Gracie’s testimony . . . WOW. As a “newbie” I appreciate reading that. It’s incredible.
As a “newbie” I have to ask, does anyone think that this religious system (SGM being one of many expressions of it) can be reformed? I read comments about “things getting straightened out at XYZ or MLC.” And I think that there may be some tinkering around the edges. But, can a system that is built upon something other than the gospel be reformed?
I also notice that God hasn’t usually reformed things. Somewhere it describes Him as tearing down and building up. Is it usually we who have labored so hard to establish a thing who sense a need to keep it basically in tact with a little reforming here and there? In other words, is reformation something of our doing?
One thing you might not realize about Lawrence is that he is an SGM Leader’s son (MLC). Realize he is sharing from that perspective. As I have guessed before, that perspective might include his wanting to protect the “family business.”
You are new to the blog and wanted to make sure you knew that.
Jim, I am thinking of reform in its technical sense rather than a theological definition. For one, I’m not a studied theologian so I’m not sure what varieties of understandings there might be out there.
I am not speaking of “reform” as it relates to “reformed theology.” I am speaking of it in terms of a general desire to change (reform) an institution so as to keep its basic foundations in tact yet change it, presumably for the better.
It’s somewhat related to a political sense of reform. Edmund Burke distinguished between change for the sake of change and change as reform so as not to transform the basic construction of a thing (constitution, in the political sense). Or as we heard B.O. (B. Obama) speak a few days before inauguration “We are a few days away from fundamentally transforming America.” The changes we see in our government these past 19 months are not engineered as a reformation (although they must appear as such under euphemistic slogans like “pursuing a ‘more perfect union’”). But, they are a disregard for the fundamentals of our constitutional government and the pursuit of an agenda to change or transform its fundamental character.
Reform, on the other hand seeks NOT to change the fundamental character of a thing but to simply change its adaptation to the current environment or the make adjustments that will still allow the current institution to move ahead with its general and initial goals.
Thus, the type of reforming that some of us might seek in our favored institutions (MLC, SGM, et al) is a tacit declaration that the fundamentals are sound but only the mechanisms need a little adjustment. I am proposing that our desire for reform may come from a sentimental or emotional attachment to our favored institutions. I am not trying to psychoanalyze in that I am not able to discern someone’s motives or even their frame of mind. But, I am focusing on the institution itself and its need for reformation, transformation or desertion.
I think I overused a few words here. Thanks for your patience.
Gracie, what a very heart-felt post! You have inspired many, I believe, especially with those who have family members still involved with SGM. You’ve given them hope that the Lord can deliver. Thank you for all you have done. I’m still praying for you, by the way!
Pam, I don’t know about everyone else, but I can see change in just the way you post, that our God has met you in the hard place and is walking beside you, that your faith has grown. I’m glad we met over this blog. What a gift!
No….. 2 other family units left last week. The fall out continues. One family 20 plus years, one family 15 plus years. Close friend “involved” says it looks like a morgue when the kids leave for children ministry. Repentance and change had yet to have a full effect at MLC. People are still slowly leaving. The cool thing < if you can consider this a good thing> God is taking those gifted folks and planting them in churches that want and need and WILL USE those gifts. To God be the Glory. Man can not hold back the hand of the Lord. He will use his people!!!!!!!!!! So many gifted people were passed over for so many years!
It is good to hear that some have found new places to worship and be used by the Lord. Are there many people who have left ML who aren’t able to move on as easily? People who leave but find it hard to trust again? Just wondering…
We will be praying for you and Carole — that you will hear clearly what it is, that you are supposed to do in regards to sgm Refuge.
We join our voices with the crew– in thanking you for stepping out as you did (this all surely transpired into a much bigger dog than you ever expected!?!). Refuge has served as a trumpet of reporting and uncovering many of sgm leaderships’ harmful and destructive assaults on our Brethren. What they used to do in secret and manipulation now has the possibility of being announced over blogdom. Surely this fact must “be a means of help” to pastors whose bent is towards bullying,double-talking, and authoritative control.
As you said, they are digging in their heels in regards to pastoral authority etc….etc—
They is what they is………
Meanwhile, as ya’ll pray for Gods clear directions…….I also pray there will somehow continue to be a forum to report abuses and upheavals; and minister to the mauled, stunned, and broken sheep left in the wake of sgm. I know we join many on this site who are praying for you and Carole…for the Lords will in all of this…and for His Peace as you navigate……….
Will be giving you a call — I have been over the top busy with 18+ hours working the last 3 weeks. You and Carol have been on my heart. Sorry I have been so bad with communication. I have dialed your number several times only to be pre-empted with another call.
Jim — when it comes to the blog, you gotta do what you gotta do. My two cents: The upcoming weeks and months are likely to see more and more people who need Refuge, so I encourage you to keep things going. Personally, I’d like to see us keep the main thing the main thing, and not keep going off into position papers that fall into the chicken/egg debate category. It’s my sense that the recent contention is discouraging to you — it is to many of us, I suspect. But that’s only a small part of the big picture here. “Do not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season you will reap if you faint not.” (loosely quoted.)
Ageless, Canary,
I join you in celebrating that God’s people are being used by God as they disperse into another part of the Body! What a joy it is to see yourself as a valuable, appreciated part of those who are free to minister to others with the gifts GOD has given! I should also think this use of service is a balm of peace to those who have left after trying to stay in ML for so, so many years.
canary August 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 pm Anyone know how the family at Metro Life is doing? Is anything getting straightened out? AND “It is good to hear that some have found new places to worship and be used by the Lord. Are there many people who have left ML who aren’t able to move on as easily? People who leave but find it hard to trust again? Just wondering…” Canary, As of this point, in the last year close to 25 family units (Couples with kids, or adult singles) have left Metro. A majority of those leaving were members of 15 years or longer. From a long standing member with many contacts in the church, I was told last week that they know of at least another 25 families that are “on the fence” waiting to see how Mike N. is treated, and if the only 2 remaining pastors, Danny and Benny, are truly going to carry out their promises to be transparent and open. (On a side note, quoting Danny Jones – “we will be walking M through a season of evaluation and discipline. It will be a time that is motivated by a desire to posture Mike N. to humbly receive all the Lord has for him.” I wonder since that day how often Danny and Benny have met with Mike and his wife to help them walk through this “season of evaluation and discipline.”? You don’t want to hear my guess, because I know how hard it is for a leopard to change spots – or is that a tiger stripes, and since there wasn’t a lot of reaching out between the team before, why will it change now?)
Ageless Debutante was mistaken saying “2 other family units left last week”.
There were a total of 8 family units that left in the last few weeks (add those to the previous 25). It appears that the exodus continues and leaderships only response is “Metro is not the church for everyone” and says “buh-bye” as long standing members depart. This does not appear to bother leadership, since the remaining members will not challenge them, and they will have a church filled with “Yes Men” (and women).
I mourn for Metro and wonder what happened to the church I left after 20 years.
Nauseated, We sure know the sense of mourning you describe. It really is a deep sadness…we also experienced this after leaving sgm after 19 years…and still do to some degree..and I think that would be because we love our Brothers and Sisters….and cringe to see them under the spell of sgm leadership. We are saddened to see pastors whom we have known for years—and young men who have become pastors–turn into cj mini-me’s who learn to respond the sgm-robotic religous speak. (Not all, but some)
On the other hand——-this is, in the big picture sort of way—encouraging—because God IS shaking and purifying HIS Church……..There is a call back to our first love, Jesus Christ and to behold our God. We cannot fully enter into this if first we adhere to the voice and edicts of man.
I am gladdened to hear that more families have left Metro–not out of rancor but because they are watching for fruit and are fleeing the counterfeit. As the chorus of a song goes:
“Run to Jesus………and Live….” I pray you who have left are able to gather together and minister to one another through the love of Holy Spirit — He knows the wounds,the disappointments, the strongholds—Be encouraged— it is a process —but He is able to cause us all to overcome for His Glory!
RT and GD have reported there is a family meeting coming up in mid August in Kingsway, a VA church (pastored by GE). We wonder if GE will first repent to the “3 Couples” he slandered at his kangaroo court in Chesapeake 2 years ago. Will he repent of his lies??? If not, it is difficult to believe and receive whatever he might be speaking to his congregants.
Kingsway is an ill church….we pray for Gods deliverance and redemption for Gods people there.
Because sgm ministries chooses to live by their own polity and pastoral authoritarianism, (while in the last year apologizing for abusive actions and investigating reported abuses),
there will continue to be upheavals. From what we have seen—they are the same ‘ol horse— just another color. Appearance of righteousness is so very important to them.
Our family members in Colorado were literally lied to by the pastors in a church “restoration” declaration. Our family member asked to set the record straight so the people wouldnot believe lies. Nope– not allowed. Illusion and control of facts is much more important to sgm. Sadly, the congregants can come to a place where it is more comfortable and familiar to believe their ‘leaders’ than to seek Gods Truth. Dangerous.
So——- we continue to watch…and pray..and be prepared to speak the Truth and minister to the broken that the Lord brings across our path…..AND continue going forward in our lives…………love remembering Jesus is our Shepherd–that HE leads us beside cool and fresh waters….and there we can hear His Voice and direction for our paths……even in the desert He is our shade (PS 91).
Praying for all you posters today while I hitch up the wagon for a trip into town……..
Our eyes on Jesus, the Living Word, the Resurrection and the Life….as He is pointing us to ‘Behold—- our God!’
Waters wrote: RT and GD have reported there is a family meeting coming up in mid August in Kingsway, a VA church (pastored by GE). We wonder if GE will first repent to the “3 Couples” he slandered at his kangaroo court in Chesapeake 2 years ago. Will he repent of his lies???
Me: Won’t happen – he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. Plus, sgm mojo is to never admit REAL wrong doing. Just admit “fluffy” stuff
Thanks. That sure is a lot of people to leave one church. Such old timers, too. They will definitely have a harder time processing it all. My advice would be to seek Jesus, spend much time in His presence…He will help His people keep what is good and throw out what is bad as far as doctrine and teachings are concerned. It was so confusing for a while after we Canary’s left PDI – what was really truth? But the Lord is faithful to walk us all through this – just give it time. There is great joy in finding your freedom in Christ!
I wonder what kind of financial effect this amount of people leaving has on ML’s budget. Hard to keep an SGM church going when so many tithes are going elsewhere. I also wonder, do leaders of ML act as though everything is fine, even though so many have left? I don’t glory in the fact that saints have had to leave. I’m sorry it seems to be “business as usual”. I feel for those who have had to move on. It is very painful. May they all find their refuge in the Lord. “The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe!”
Another weird SGM practice is to make an announcement of a ‘Family meeting’, but be secretive and avoid giving out any information. It just leads to a bunch of speculation and gossip.
Drama. It makes it all seems very important, and makes the sheeple think that they have something to do with something at their local church, other than just coming in and hearing GE spiel on and on.
But God is God, and jealous for his people. He will redeem.
Oh my. My heart is so heavy. Nauseated I’m so sorry for you as you watch the hemorrhaging, YET – I wonder, is this an answer to our prayers? I know that it took a near-death experience in so. CO for SGM to step in and remove Keith and try to resuscitate a dying church. So could this bring a financial result they cannot deny? Obviously they have “gone to the mattresses” as far as their authoritarian stance is concerned, while trying to put a sheeps wool covering on it.
Waters, I didn’t realize you had family members out here and the idea of lies being concealed – well, it’s not the first time I’ve heard of it – I was told that whatever I heard from a dear abused friend was lies from the sr. pastor of the southern church. I was shocked and appalled at the time – right up until I was accused with no basis, of course.
But anyway, Waters, I was struck with the pain of your relatives all over again in your sad post. I’m so very sorry for you, and for whomever has had to carry this betrayal.
And……as you said, our First Love – our ONLY love can be, must be Jesus himself !!! To Him be all glory, praise and honor!
(Philippians 4:8)
RT said..”the meeting on the 15th is really going to address an issue of abuse from years ago.” hmmmm….. I wonder which one they picked…….and how will GE present it??
Will he confess his on-going lack of discernment and responsibility (very critical in caring for/shepherding/eldering, Gods people) ?? Lord, let there be Light…for Truth and Redemption.
Waters,
The issue to be presented concerns a “de-gifting” that occurred almost 10 years ago. There will be a question and answer session, where GE will answer questions. The man who is in the epicenter of the issue will be speaking. I, personally, am hopeful for what the meeting will hold. I am praying for real change. I have faith that God will work mightily in this issue and that healing will spread through our church and through SGM as a whole.
Now, before you all begin to think I am a plant. I will let you all know that I (and some of my friends and family) have been hurt by practices at my church and by things the pastors have done and said, BUT we are (mostly) still attending because we know that God can do miraculous works in the hearts of all those involved in this mess. If God moves, we will stay and rejoice. If not, we will follow God to where He will lead us.
I don’t know any of you from the First Adam or the Last Adam but I beseech you by the mercies of God to bare with a few words from the perspective of “an outsider looking in”. Although I have never been a part of an SGM (or affilated) church, twenty years ago I was involved with a church which was very legalistic and authoritarian wherein the “man of God” had near pope-like status. When I finally left I felt for quite some time as if I was suffering from spiritual post traumatic stress disorder. It was painful and difficult because I was close to many of them but God granted me the courage to “launch out into the deep”, for which I am eternally grateful. Anyway, the SGM churches are not the only churches out there that leave a lot of “collateral damage” in their wake and therefore this “refuge” site can be a help to many like me that have not been directly affected by SGM.
Before I move on my more scriptural comments, I wanted to give those who are contemplating the departure from such a church the following words of wisdom: GET OUT NOW. The sooner the better. Believe me when I say that God is waiting for you with open arms. It will take time but the sooner you do it, the sooner your healing will come. Praise be to God! Also, if any of you have recently left and know friends that are on the fence, I strongly encourage you to advise them in the same manner: GET OUT NOW.
Anyway, in the 20/20 hindsight of my experience and in listening to all the chatter about SGM on this site, it appears to me as if the biggest problem in all of these abusive/authoratarian/legalistic churches (SGM, MLC, PDI, or any of 100 others) is simply this: The Founders and/or Leadership Do Not Believe in the Great Glad News of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. All they can see is sin, especially in others. They walk by sight rather than by faith and thus they do not see their brothers and sisters in Christ as righteous beings. All they can see is the outward behaviour. Remember, man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. And if God in Christ put away your sins “as far as the east is from the west”, then He is not looking at your sin, He is looking at a son (I know, or a daughter). Paul said that all he desired to know amongst the saints was “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. Although he knew well the “manifestations of the flesh, which are evident”, that was not his focus. Paul said to “set your mind on things above where Christ (and you yourself in Christ) are seated with Him in Heavenly places” my paraphrase). Peter and Paul (I don’t know about Mary) saw the saints (all Christians) as part of a Holy Nation, a Royal Priesthood, a people belonging to God. Paul said we should put on the “new man which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness”. Nowhere in the New Covenant are we as Christians admonished to look at our “indwelling sin”. In fact, the Scripture teaches that the strength of sin is the Law and that by applying the Law to ourselves in this manner, we only cause sin in the members of our body to manifest all the more. As Paul says, “Who shall deliver me from this body of death?” Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It all boils down to this. As Christians we simply must believewhat God says about us in accordance to the New Covenant. We are no longer in “the first man Adam, the natural”, we are in “the last Adam, the spiritual”. Therefore we should not submit to anyone (no, not even for an hour) unless they are ministering according to the Spirit of grace, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
I could go on and on about this topic as it really is the foundational difference between authentic Christianity and all other religions (including that works-righteousness religion that masquerades as Christianity). That difference is simply this: When Jesus Christ died, all those in Christ died with Him. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, all those in Christ rose with Him. And when Jesus Christ ascended and sat down in Heaven, so did all those in Him. Christians are totally new creations, not old creations made to act better. All other religions try to amend the old. God crucifies the old in Christ and then He makes all things new in His resurrection. The Good News is that your sins are gone and you are a brand new person, dead to sin and alive to God. I could write a book about all this but that has already been done so I simply encourage you to believe what God says about you in the scriptures and what He is saying to you now by His Spirit. His love for you is stronger than death and nothing can separate you from that love.
Thank you all who have shared the comfort that God has given you as you have made the journey out of the bondage (of SGM or the like) into the freedom which is ours in Christ. To some of you others, be careful not to fall into the trap of “wrangling over words”, remembering that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, and that you should make every effort to preserve the spirit of unity in the bond of peace.
Defended August 5th, 2010 at 4:00 pm Oh my. My heart is so heavy. Nauseated I’m so sorry for you as you watch the hemorrhaging, YET – I wonder, is this an answer to our prayers? I know that it took a near-death experience in so. CO for SGM to step in and remove Keith and try to resuscitate a dying church. Defended – you must have been a part of the church with Flotsam and Jetsom- dear friends of ours that we sent from Orlando to Colorado. We heard the “Keith story” from them. Took awhile, but they are connected to a solid church. As far as those of our friends at Metro, in Orlando, there seems to be a different outcome than in many SGM churches. A few are still looking for a new home, but most of us have gotten plugged into different churches around the city. I do not believe in tossing the baby out with the bath water, and believe that there we many excellent years with solid teaching, that God is using by scattering us across the city. It is sad to see 20+ years of friendships dissolve, but Christ’s church will stand, and He is spreading us across the city in all sorts of churches and rather than being pew sitters, most of us are becoming actively involved. For my wife and I, it is bittersweet. We still get together with the close friends we had for all those years, but God has us in a new season, ministering to many that are just getting involved with Christianity for the first time, and we are well equipped (something that I credit our Pastors in Metro) for works of service. It could be so easy to never get involved again, and say “woe is me, I don’t want to get hurt again, so I’ll never be involved” , but I don’t want to give Satan any joy, so that isn’t going to happen. We will take the good that we learned and bring it with us. It wasn’t all bad, and to say it was, would be untrue.
The sadness comes in seeing what could have been if leadership had listened to all of the “Nathans” that came into the office over the last year, but instead, chose to stick to the company line, even if it meant losing close to 30 families. (From those still there, they say it is half empty – or half full, depending on your interpretation)
Our prayers are with you and our brothers and sisters surrounding you. May God make you aware of His great love for you and may He do the same for those around you on that Sunday. Much grace to the people leading the meeting so that they be sensitive to God’s voice.
Hope — thanks for your comment. The very words “family meeting” fill me with fear and trembling.
Do you know if the general subject matter of the upcoming meeting was announced to the congregation as a whole, or are most going into the meeting without a clue?
I’m glad that the man who has remained silent since the debacle will have his ‘day in court’. I’m glad they’ll have a Q and A session. And I hope that somebody will ask the degifted why the heck he stuck around.
Please, Refugers (not refugees!) — join in praying for this meeting. Thanks.
Hope, Thankyou for clarifying the meetings intent. Joining with Stunned and others to be praying for you there at Kingsway. Much discernment is needed in these “Family Meetings”. Holy Spirit has needed insight to put discerning and significant questions into the hearts of the people —– we pray Redemption that glorifies Jesus Christ (and not an institution or man) will come about.—
Amen! And I pray questions are addressed – not danced around or used for spin.
And I pray that MEN will RISE UP! Not be wooed in the sappy submission that so many have been conditioned in.
The problem is that one has to get away from the confines of SGM to be deprogrammed. When you are still inside, it is hard to see the mistakes being made. Even people who have left will need time to understand what was good and what was not. So, those still in SGM might protest at certain problems they see but will ultimately stand by their leaders, unless they get away long enough to see what has really been happening. I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches.
Chris Wiley – that was awesome. It made me remember that I was “healed” from hurt and abuse in the late 1990′s mostly by seeing this message of the gospel – that our sins are no longer counted against us, that Christ died AS us not just FOR us, that the lustful (and other) thoughts I had were not products of the “old man” but of my flesh and my failures were not a testament against my righteousness because my righteousness was established IN CHRIST ALONE and that I was IN HIM.
I want to add that I was not abused nearly to the extent that I have seen on this forum. And the little I know about the conduct and treatment at MLC, SGM, et al, I was definitely in the “minor leagues” when it comes to mistreatment. I’m willing to stipulate that I mistreated others as much as I was mistreated by others. I’m grateful just to have lots of friends from those days. And my relationship with my former boss/”pastor” is wonderful.
But, looking back, I see the key to the whole thing – Fortunately, I heard messages by James Barron on cassette. Russ and Hazel Parker and Mike and Rocky Beene had introduced me to the teachings. Mike and Rocky ministered to us in our home in Raleigh, NC. I resisted James’ teaching for over a year but kept listening. I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
Seriously Chris, the whole message came crashing in on me one day and it was like the sun shone for the first time. The more I listened and learned, the more I realized that if there ever was a panacea, this was it. Then I recalled scripture verses in a different light – Paul saying that He wanted to only know Christ and Him crucified. The real gospel IS a panacea. It changes everything – even and especially our view of the church and how we are treated in the church.
I clearly remember hearing some of the saints at Tree of Life (we spent a year in Orlando) speak to a fellow believer who had been hurt and wanted to talk about a leader in another church – “Remember that God loves each one of His creatures and those who believe in His Son are just as righteous as you and I are and just as righteous as Christ Himself is. We have no condemnation for any one. They don’t have to believe exactly as we do. They don’t have to see the world as we do. If they believe in Christ – they are righteous in Him. Danny Jones stands as righteous as Christ Himself and as you and I stand.” [I pick on Danny because I know him but have had no conflict or interaction with him. I just think of him as having this big contagious smile from back in 1980. And the fact that he out-married himself.]
This is what frees us to speak the truth to one another – we can be “matter-of-fact” about the whole abuse-within-SGM thing because we are speaking in an environment of grace. We can say “this is bad treatment of the saints” without worrying that we are in sin. Because, our statements are not judgments of righteousness or sin. They are the “truth in love.” And, we have not the slightest judgment for abusers.
Chris, I think you are dead on (bad term I guess) about seeing the message. It will absolutely change everything and set us free from bondage. It will set us free from feeling guilty about leaving a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not even attending a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not performing the outlined program.
In a church where I served for several years, we STRONGLY encouraged people to arise early and have “Prime Time” with God every day. Not even the leaders (except those who were naturally early-risers) could conform but we could all pretend and avoid exposure. But, the folks labored under this pressure and many couldn’t bear up under it. They couldn’t “feel” spiritually vital enough to measure up to this false standard we were holding forth. And so many just wandered away. Right now, that church has “grown” from about 1,100 people at its peak to less than 500. It’s like a preacher told my dad (an overseer of churches for many years), “Brother, my ministry is doing marvelous. This church is going down slower than any I’ve had before.”
The point is – whether the abuse is intense or subtle – the issue is our own minds. Have we seen Christ’s finished work? Have we seen our entry by faith into this realm of grace whereby our sins are no longer counted against us? Do we examine ourselves for sin or for faith?
I heard someone say that we are responsible for everything that we say, do, think and feel. I agreed that I was responsible for my own words, actions and thoughts. I didn’t agree that I was responsible for what I felt. What about the person who hurt me? Weren’t they responsible for my pain? Were they not to be held accountable for what I was feeling? When I thought about it, I realized that I could never be healed from what I felt so long as another person was responsible for it. It’s not easy and I’ve processed only about 5% of my feelings of rejection, hurt, anger, etc.
But, the real power to heal that I have found is believing the gospel and seeing (in an unfolding way) Christ in me and me in Him, Him in the Father, The Father in Him – UNION – unbreakable UNION in Christ. When my mind is trained upon that UNION, I have no fear, I have no overwhelming hurt or pain. I have nothing but rest and confidence. I am distresssed but not crushed, struck down maybe but not destroyed. I feel rest.
I don’t know how I would have handled the sort of abuse that I know many of you guys have experienced. I think that most of you must be stronger than I am. I shudder to think what I might have done under the heavy handed authoritarian leaders that have abused you.
Just think, one day some of these SGM leaders may say “I used to persecute the very church of God, thinking that I was serving God. But, on my way to an SGM conference, God knocked me off of my horse . . . And now I proclaim the marvelous mystery, hidden in God for ages. For had the rulers of the world known this mystery (that Christ’s death would accomplish our union with God) they never would have crucified Him.”
You are welcome. If I am able to say anything that plants or waters a gospel seed, then God’s purpose is served.
PS: I loved your comment on here the other day about people needing to go for a walk, hold a baby, see the beauty of the forest, etc., BEFORE they post. Argumentation is only effective when motivated by love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, or for the lost. “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”. A life lesson we all need to learn more intimately. Continue to enjoy God’s simple blessings!
I have rarely had anyone say that what I said or wrote was “awesome”, but thank you for that kind word. It is a wonderful thing to encounter “kindred spirits” on our journey with Christ, but I believe I can say from reading your posts and from your response to mine, that we are indeed just that.
I loved what you said about an “unbreakable UNION in Christ” as that is what Christ came to earth for, what He died for, and what He sent the Comforter for. “God is faithful, by whom you’ve been called into fellowship (unbreakable union) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor 1:9). God can not have fellowship with darkness (the flesh) and therefore He made us alive together with Christ in the Spirit so that He could have fellowship with us (Spirit to spirit). That is why scripture says “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”. Jesus really does want us to be His friends, not just automaton followers. When you begin to understand this spiritual fact, then “you have the tiger by the tail” as one teacher put it. This reality is where we need to abide, forever. It is the closest thing on earth that we will ever have to Heaven. This union is that “love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” from which nothing will be able to separate us. Praise be to God!
Anyway, I’ve got to go referee a Birthday Party for my twin boys, Ian and Evan, who are turning 9. I think they are battling with the enemy right now but I am afraid someone might get injured by friendly fire.
I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
I had to chuckle a bit at your comment about the the grace preachers. Christian leaders are so afraid to preach grace and freedom. I have had pastors tell me it is dangerous to preach to much grace and freedom. I would laugh — and ask them what is the limit to “lavish” and how free did Christ really make us? -”Jesus came to make us free, free indeed” — Is there a particular amount of law that needs to be preached with grace for balance? Is there a certainly amount of bondage that needs to preached with freedom for balance?
It is grace and freedom that empowers the believer to do great and mighty things as God’s change agents of the world. Our freedom and grace is sealed in the Holy Spirit; we are now His representatives (ambassadors) in the earth.
We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. Way too many Christians identify themselves with their sin, short comings, etc. and that becomes the sum total of their Christian life – trying to overcome sin.
Our identity is in Christ, His righteousness, seated in the heavenlies — part of a chosen race, a holy nation,a royal priesthood and people possessed by God. As we renew our mind with the truth of who Christ and who we are in Him, that becomes the source of our life and liberty. Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin.
“We have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us; and the life which we now live in the flesh we are to live by faith in the son of God, who loves us and gave Himself up for us”
Good (great) News — blessings to all the Refuge brethren.
Irv said, ‘We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. …Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin. ”
sources say Danny is out of Aposolic Leadership and will be just a Senior Pastor of Metro and ‘a new guy’ who i will keep nameless at this point is taking over? ARE we finally heading in the right direction?
Neither one, Defended. My daughter was there when the announcement was made and she said it is Aron Osborne who will take over leadership of the southern region. Metro Life will be his homebase; he will be a pastor/elder and spend 25% of his time there. This will hopefully relieve some of the strain on Danny so he can focus on getting MLC back on track. At least that is my prayer, even though I’m not there anymore!
This is not surprising about Aron Osborne. His star has been rising for years. He is one of Harvey’s close proteges. If AO will be based in Orlando, who will be taking his role as the new senior pastor in Souderton?
Silent Guardian, were you at the meeting? I only ask because Vida is saying her daughter was there and said that’s who it was announced as. Not that mistakes or misunderstandings aren’t easy to happern. I’m just trying to figure out who’s on third.
Actually, two of my daughters — including a young adult who is planning to stay at MLC — were there, and both said it was Aron Osborne. I know very little about him, so I have no opinion either way. I am just hoping for the best for all of them. Was anyone else there who could provide more details on what was announced?
Silent Guardian, even if we disagree with someone, we can show basic courtesy of speaking of them by their regular names and avoid the loaded language. “Harvey’s close protege” (by formersgmer) is a lot more appropriate than “Davey Harvey’s Henchmen.” If you want to be taken seriously as a one who has something genuinely helpful to say, this is a little step in the right direction. As it is, you are baiting people and not giving any useful information to prove your credibility. If you’re going to bring it up in the first place, be forthright about it, please. Just the facts! This is not a schoolyard spat.
The facts, according to Aron Osborne’s site if you are interested. A quote form his bio states, “…is assisting Dave Harvey with oversight of several Sovereign Grace Churches in the northeast.” IMHO, how to do “oversight” for Aron has been modeled by Dave Harvey. I could be wrong here, but in my experience, the mentor’s job is to school the mentored on how to do it–I’m just saying.
Let’s be careful in how we address each other (preaching this to myself first) here, and remember something that Jim has expressed from time to time here we can all learn from: a blog is not a good place to have an emotionally fraught conversation. It’s one thing to state what and why we believe something, and even how much it makes us happy or disgusts us…but when we get into “yes it is” and “no it isn’t” conversations, we can hurt each other even more. Given that some of us are trying to recover already, this is like two injured people getting into a yes-it-is/no-it-isn’t fight in an emergency room with other injured people taking sides and cheering for one or the other.
I’m not getting on anyone’s case, please hear what I am saying (and I am positive I’m going to get many “physician, heal thyself” emails). I am happy to facilitate conversations offline. Email me and ask if the other person would like to talk offline, and I will set that up and get out of the way.
By coincidence, a friend from Metro called a little bit ago to tell me the news about Aron Osborne. She is well aware of the issues with SGM and has sought God over whether to leave or stay, and feels called to stay and pray for a move of the Holy Spirit. She was definitely in faith for this new development, and seemed to think, based on Aron Osborne’s time and sermon at Metro a few weeks ago, that he is more open to the Holy Spirit.
Well since there is a Family Meeting on October 13…… maybe my news will came to light. Im asking to verify, not to hold over peoples heads. The name ‘Aron Osborne’ did not come up in my research. And my information is ‘newer’ than anybody on this blog is aware of…….even those, like me, who attend Metro. Supposedly this is a secretive tryout for the new gentleman. So, we will see……..
Silent Gaurdian says: September 13, 2010 at 11:37 am
“The name ‘Aron Osborne’ did not come up in my research. “ SG, It was announced on a Sunday morning. Did you sleep in? Not much research needed when you attend!
Nauseated says: September 14, 2010 at 10:41 am
“Wonder what this means for MN, and how long he has before he is “degifted”?
So sad to see my former home is half empty (or full).”
Nau, I think God has MN and his wife in the palm of his hand. Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it. When they put MN in the place he is in, “degifting” as you put it, has already taken place. If God closes the door for him at MLC, he will certainly open another. Also, it is never sad when God shakes up His people and moves thier giftings elsewhere. You give too much credit to mans plans and failures. God does His best work in these moments. God’s glass is neither half empty or half full. It is overflowing. His church will be the same.
Hi Phil3_14. If I have never welcomed you here before, welcome!
I love the image you evoke when you say, ”Nau, I think God has MN and his wife in the palm of his hand”. It’s a beautiful thing we all need to be reminded of daily. And what a good thing it is for MN and his family, too.
I also liked this reminder, ”Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it.” Again, we all need to be reminded of this in the most loving way possible. Thanks for doing that.
You also said, “Also, it is never sad when God shakes up His people and moves thier giftings elsewhere”
I totally disagree with you on that one. though God is at work, there is still often room for sadness and grieving while that work takes place in this fallen and broken world. I know that if God were ever to call one of my children home to be with Him, it would be His work and I hope I could find some comfort in that, but there is still a breakking, a missing and mourning that takes place. I’d imagine that there will be a sadness for many at Metro as people are taken away, if only til we see them again on the other side of the veil. Something we need to remember so that we don’t trample or ignore the feelings of those who are struggling with this very real emotion and pain. I don’t think it’s a case of giving credit to man’s failings or plans as much as simply recognizing the fruit that is often borne (born?) of it.
Good luck to everyone at Metro. Our heavenly daddy is at work and loves us each so!
Silent Gaurdian…I think you need to get some new and reliable contacts at Metro. Aron Osborne is def. going to be at Metro and is taking over all of Danny Jone’s “Apostolic” Responsibilties”.
Did anyone hear that Crossway Community Church in Charlotte, NC announced last night at their Family Meeting that they are doing another Church Plan. Thank GOD that Brent D. is not invloved in this one. They may actually have a chance of it “working” this time….
Osbourne has been in SGM since the early 90′s….it’s hard for me to imagine Aaron not operating from Dave Harvey’s playbook. He was at Dave’s church before being sent out on a local transplant of Covenant Fellowship folks. Aaron is well-mannered and intelligent, but I have personally seen him in action and he is a company man. I wouldn’t expect any changes that weren’t approved in advance by Dave Harvey.
Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it.”
I really can’t help myself on this one – perhaps opening a can of worms.
Herein lies the problem with the church — SGM leaders and others think it is their responsibility to build the church, that somehow Jesus has relinquished what He has said He would do to men.
Leaders operate and exercise authority as if it is their church rather than God’s. Whatever men build will crumble at some point. “unless God builds the house, they labor in vain who build it”. Only that which is the kingdom of God will stand in the shaking . SGM will always have the crumbling because it is about them, their doctrine and their authority. How does Jesus get in a word edgewise?
Jesus is the cornerstone and without the cornerstone the house will fall. It isn’t the cross, it isn’t church government or authority, it isn’t worship, it isn’t prayer, etc. it is Jesus Himself – and with it the fullness of His glory.
I have heard it said “Jesus would build His church” — I sure hope so because I don’t think men have done a very good job doing His job. But that’s me!!!
September 17, 2010 at 12:02 am is indeed a can of worms, but it needs to be opened and dealt with (so thank you for turning the first crank on the can-opener).
The pseudo-humility exercised can brainwash one into thinking they are on the cleaner end of all dirty things.
It can be distilled from the language we use(d).
Over the decades, so often behind the catch-phraseology and fads in Sovereign Grace Ministries’ self-centered culture (which I ate up using all utensils available) is a sense of manpower urgency. And I mean manpower in a godless, pride-driven sense.
“Cross-centered” in actuality meant SGM’s take on cross-centered, or worse, just plain SGM-centered.
“Getting the Gospel Right” became Getting the Gospel Righter Than You and Everyone Else.
“I’m the Worst Sinner I Know” was actually I’m the Worst Sinner I Know (And Please Take Note of My Humility Exceeding Yours by Leaps and Bounds…NOW, TAKE NOTE OF IT NOW…).
“Doing Better Than I Deserve” always had this fake-ish, juvenile air to it that may as well have been Doing Better Than I Deserve, but I’m Not Returning That Boat I Got. I’ve purposed the next time I hear this, my response is going to be, “then you need to go into missions.”
The one that disturbs me more than any of the others–probably more than the ones that substitute SGM profundity with ”cross”–is how “Bringing the Gospel into (insert any noun/verb/adverb here)” was, in actuality, Bringing SGMology into (insert any noun/verb/adverb here).
The fruit of the Holy Spirit and God’s sanctifying grace became “The Fruit of Good Pastoring.” This type of reverse-engineering is silly, and it needs to stop. In harsher terms, it’s exchanging the truth for a lie.
What shameful tongues we have had!
I want to reiterate what you said, Irv, regarding Christ being both Cornerstone and Builder. SGMology is a momentary vapor, a wisp of air unsustainable in eternal terms. Martin Luther probably would have described these noxious phrases as farts in the wind.
I’m tired of blue air folks, and I just want Christ.
Church Wide Family Meeting
Please mark your calendars for our next Family Meeting on Wednesday, October 13! The meeting will begin at 7:30 p.m. and will be in place of our normally scheduled home groups that evening. Aron Osborne, along with his wife Melissa, will be joining us for the evening and will share his account of how the Holy Spirit has led them during this season and their heart for Metro Life Church. Childcare will be provided for children 2 years old through 5th grade.
AMEN, PK!
You did an EXCELLENT job translating what those phrases REALLY mean.
I think it would be beneficial for current and past SGMers if you would translate every “SGM phrase” you can recall. SGM’s main tactic is the “language.” It sounds so good – it really messes with your mind.
Their heart for you. Isn’t that nice? Where’s a vomit bag when you’re not in an airplane but still feel like you’re about to be dropped through the stratosphere?
Stunned, give Aron Osborne a chance. God does work in mysterious ways! I don’t want to put God in a box, especially when it comes to the ability to work his ways in his church, even one that sometimes has put him in a box themselves. There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church. This could be an answer to their prayers.
re: need for SGM translations.
From the works of Jonathan Edwards Vol 1 Sec. 1
” Spiritual pride often disposes persons to singularity in external appearance, to affect a singular way of speaking, to use a different sort of dialect from others, or to be singular in voice, countenance, or behaviour. But he that is an eminently humble Christian, though he will be firm to his duty, however singular—going in the way that leads to heaven alone, though all the world forsake him—yet he delights not in singularity for singularity’s sake. He does not affect to set up himself to be viewed and observed as one distinguished, as desiring to be accounted better than others—despising their company, or conformity to them— but on the contrary is disposed to become all things to all men, to yield to others, and conform to them and please them, in every thing but sin. Spiritual pride commonly occasions a certain stiffness and inflexibility in persons, in their own judgment and their own ways; whereas the eminently humble person, though he be inflexible in his duty, and in these things wherein God’s honour is concerned; and with regard to temptation to those things he apprehends to be sinful, though in never so small a degree, he is not at all of a yielding spirit, but is like a brazen wall; yet in other things he is of a pliable disposition, not disposed to set up his own opinion, or his own will; he is ready to pay deference to others’ opinions, loves to comply with their inclinations, and has a heart that is tender and flexible, like a little child”.
There is nothing new under the sun.
Suzie, are you asking if I know Aron personally? Yes, we were in the same church for many years, though if you asked him my name, he may have forgotten me by now.
On your post 9/17@ 7:31 am, you stated: “There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church. This could be an answer to their prayer.” (in reference to Aron Osbornes new pastoral position there). Contemplating this………
Sincerely, I’m asking….how will we or do we define a move of the Holy Spirit??
–I was saved and redeemed 35 years ago during the ‘Charasmatic Movement’–at a small Methodist church on the west coast. At that time everything about the Lord, the Bible, Christians, was unchartered and new to me. I wouldn’t have known ‘charasmatic’ from ‘asthmatic’. Soon, though, I experienced the powerful Presence of the dunamis power of the Holy Spirit. Baptized in the Holy Spirit (please, not looking for a theological debate on this!)…speaking in tongues…praying for and seeing people and members of my family miraculously healed. Seeing people delivered from demonic oppressions and deliverances.
Experiencing Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge——–yes, for a period of about 10 years Holy Spirit revealed Himself in these ways. {Then man, as usual, made a mess of it all etc etc…}
Some years ago, I realized the Holy Spirit moves in powerfully different ways—often ways in which we would not expect…or even define as a “move of the Holy Spirit.”
My whole point is……I believe Holy Spirit IS IS IS moving … could it be that He is cleansing…and exposing hidden deceit and sins in the church???
Early in the Book of Acts, we read the story of Ananias and Sapphira.
(recall Acts 5: 1-11). Certainly, since this account is written in scripture,we may believe God is letting us know the serious evil of lies and deceit in the church.
He Himself revealed the hidden deed to Peter…Peter addressed it …and went straight to the core of the issue: Acts 5:4b “Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have lied not to men but to God.”
and Acts 5: 5– “And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.”
…During our “story” and also during the Chesapeake story, we experienced both heartbreak, sorrow, shock…….AND
the powerful powerful Presence of Holy Spirit. We give Him glory for speaking His Voice above all others in the midst of the storm and in the midst of smokescreens,deceits, and duplicitous words from leadership. He shattered darkness over and over again. He gave specific directions and instructions for us—above the voice of man/leadership. He provided for our needs. He intervened in our lives—awoke us—delivered us —redeemed us— and it was all done by leaning in and listening to Him….and believeing Him…
At one point in the Chesapeake story, a prayer request was sent to 20 some members of the church— to pray for and to go to the ’3 Couples’ — to seek truth and pray for their church. Most remained asleep. One leader charged the ones who requested prayer with “opening the door to slander and gossip” (this person didnot know the battle had already been going on for 7 months!)…….
I wonder——– perhaps there are times Holy Spirit IS moving among us—but we are either asleep—-don’t recognize it——or think He moves in only certain ways.
I believe Holy Spirit IS moving— and presently, ONE of the ways is in cleansing the church. Recalling the exhortations to the churches listed in the book of Revelations:
“He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches”
I submit to you, that a Holy God is exposing the seriousness of the workings of deceit in SGM. By His Spirit.
Acts 5:4– “WHY is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
In case this hasn’t been stated explicitely yet: starting in January, Aron Osborne will not only “be added” to the leadership team, but also “assume regional responsibility for the southeast churches of SGM.”
I’d hope the best and brightest. No questions about Osborne. It’s just so weird that this entire system of patronage is continued on and on and on, no matter what.
If anything holds SGM together, it is the inofficial mentor-mentee system on the leadership level.
Hi I found this website a few days ago and have been trying as much as possible to absorb all that has been written. I have been free of my SGC for nearly 3 years. I was in my SGC in FL (not Metro, but hesitate to say which one just yet) for just short of 10 years when I made the decision to leave. MANY others have left since for varying reasons. I am a single. I will give my story on the Your Story 2 thread at some point.
I’ve read through a lot of the stories you all have posted as well as a few other threads including Signs You’ve Become a Non-Thinking SG Drone over on Survivors! I couldn’t believe how many of those things I [used to] relate to. My story of why I left SGM is nowhere near as horrible as what you all have been through though. Some of this stuff shocked me, though in retrospect it shouldn’t. I feel like I wasted 10 years of my life in some ways. Again, I will post my story some time.
Tonight I stumbled across this thread. Since I’ve been out of the loop for almost 3 years I am shocked to hear what is happening at MLC. I knew about what happened with JJ. Because I went to the “family meeting” my church had about it. But I didn’t know that B.D. in the Charlotte church resigned, that M.N. was being forced out and that T.T. had left MLC. I would really love to know what happened.
Also, I have reason to believe that the pastor of MY former SGC has either resigned or been asked to leave. Obviously no one in my former church has posted anything about this on facebook, only a former member. I basically only have contact to anyone who still goes to my former SGC church through facebook and the occasional accidental running into them at a store. Of course when I left they all promised me we would stay in contact, but we all know that is a joke. I feel like the Amish in which if they chose to leave to go to the “outside” world you are shunned! LOL Though I have been back twice since my departure (once for a wedding, once for a funeral) and was warmly greeted, anytime I’ve ever mentioned connecting in person with one of them, they will say yes, but never follow through.
Anyway, if anyone could be so kind to fill me in with what happened with MN, TT, and BD that would be awesome. My email address (this is my secondary one, if emailed I will be glad to give my primary one once I know it’s not someone from my SGC that still goes there ) philippians4_6and7@yahoo.com
Welcome, Ex-FL-SGMer. Thanks for posting an email where others can contact you and hopefully fill you in on those questions you posed. We haven’t heard much out of MLC in awhile, so I’ll let those in the know respond…
In Response to Ex-FL, T.T. is in maryland and doing well. Leading some worship and working and praying about direction, but loving life!! BD is recovering and is about to start a bible study called Aletheia here is the announcement:
“I love the book of Romans! It’s the greatest theological treatise ever written. I’ve decided to start a Bible study fellowship called Aletheia (Greek: truth) for anyone interested in an informal, but in depth study of God’s word. It begins Saturday, November 6 at our house from 6:30-8:00 pm. ”
MN’s status i do not know. There was a family meeting on the 13th at MLC, Aron Osborne was being introduced as the new guy, but i am somewhat out of the loop since most of my closest friends have left!!!
From the comments I have read here, SGM does sound like it has a Presbyterian form of a government. The Presbyterian model sounds very appealing until one sees it practiced where the elders are re-affirmed without any discussion or debate year after year while the congregation slowly withers away while the only pastoral care given is to berate someone for considering leaving the “authority” of the session. Appeal to the Presbytery sounds appealing until you read learn cases where pastoral abuse is never appealed to the Presbytery because the abused do not understand the lofty legal structure erected over the churches. Those who do understand the legal superstructure figure out that it is a shell game where the dominant faction of presbytery will gets its way regardless of the damage done to the sheep in the folk.says.
Occassionally some pastors will make it past the screening process of the Presbytery and be installed in churches where they can raise concerns about doctrinal error in the Presbytery. But that small minority can be put up on charges of disrupting the “peace” of the church.
(All examples given here I witnessed in a presbytery of the PCA.)
SGM has apparently decided to perfect the Presbyterian form of church goverment, which is suspectible to dissidents thinking they have an actual voice, by dispensing with the inanity of elder elections and Presbytery votes orchestrated by the powers that be.
I digress and await the creation of pcarefuge.com.
Ex Fl Sgracer…were you in the Daytona Church. There is much debockle going on there at the present time. Both of the Dannies, and other pastorial oversight continue to put salt into the wounds of the saints…How many ways can these men communicate clearly, and biblically that they really don’t care. So far this church debockle has been neatly swept under the rug.
Robert, as a presbyterian who commented on a polity thread here stating my belief that SGM’s polity isn’t presbyterian (no ruling elders, a hallmark of presbyterianism), I was saddened very much by the difficult things you vaguely referenced and the fact that you seem to believe you have no outlet, at least within your presbytery, to act on it. I’m also sorry you know of presbyterians who don’t understand the recourse they have as members of the body. Just know that this is not so across the entire denomination, that there are congregations where the flock are cared for and presbyteries where the hurt are defended.
In lieu of a refuge-type site, may I recommend The Aquila Report? There is a submit stories and reports link there.
Perhaps this should be reposted to the polity thread but I do believe the SGM pastor who compared his church’s polity to Presbyterianism has a point. Official SGM polity is different but the essence and practice have striking similarities.
Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a plurality of elders/pastors. Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy” (I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.) In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery. Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.
The SGM pastor said he had system of rule by elders/pastors with congregational input sought out. In practice this is what actual practice in presbyterian churches often looks like on good days. On bad days this system has many of the same abuses mentioned here regarding SGM.
May I ask whether your experience was in a PCA or USA or the third one which I now forget its name?
I grew up presby, am presby once again now and have my presby brother-in-law who has been a pastor for 30 years now. A few of the things you have said are so far from any of the things I have ever observed and experienced myself that it makes me wonder if we were in different presby denominations, that’s why I asked the above question.
For example, I have never once heard of a teaching elder in any of my presby experiences.
You said, “(I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.)” i have personally seen this vote happen many times. I have also seen people vote against the budget when they have disagreed with something in the budget. And then go to the pastor both before and after to discuss the things that they disagreed with.
You also said, “Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a plurality of elders/pastors.” I certainly don’t want to diminish your experience by saying it is different from mine. If any experience is true, one is not more valid than the other. So please understand that this question is not meant as a dismissal of your thoughts but a desire for clarification. Would you please let me know what you mean by an exalted role for church officers? Again, though I have always been heavily involved in my presby churches, I could barely tell you who the elders were/are. So I have never seen any exaltation of roles, nor any domination taking place. Heck, as a teen ager I was asked to be on the nominating committee for the deacons and I seemed to have as much sway as the elderly woman that was my partner. (Hmmm, don’t know if that was the wisest move but it was wonderful to be in a church where they wanted to give everyone equal voice.)
That is why your comment, “Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy”” was so perplexing to me. Actually, now that I think about it, another presby church I know just voted to break away from the presby denomination they have been a part of for a looooong time. They made the decision as a democratic vote. There was much debate, both formally and among the town’s people for months. The pastor held back many of his views, because he did not want to be accused of unduly influencing anyone’s decisions. After many months of deliberation, prayer, debate, and discussion, the vote was made. There was no land slide. It was a close vote, which says to me that people used their vote to voice their opinions/convictions. The denomination they are breaking away from also had their long democratic process as does the other denomination they are becoming a part of. I was glad to see it held with some due process involved and much voting and discussion.
You also said, “In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery.” Would you mind sharing “without first passing muster with the session” refers to? Like I said, I was on nominating committees and the person I nominated was chosen without any problem. (Not saying your experience is invalidated by mine.) The more you share it seems that you had a really horrible experience but it doesn’t sound like any presby church I have yet to experience. (Thank heavens. It sounds awful what you’ve described.) Not that I would want a session to ever vote in someone that they don’t approve of. What would be the point? I want my elders and deacons and ministers passing muster. For me, that’s a good thing and part of the democratic process.
“Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.” This is my experience, as well. Though, I have seen it happen but it doesn’t happen all that much. Not that it has needed to happen all that much, though I can think of one situation where it needed to happen much sooner than it did.
Thanks for coming along and giving us stuff to think about.
Stunned,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am referring to experiences I and people I know had in the PCA.
While the PCA and OPC have their own cults of personality, those denominations do differ from SGM in that they are larger and more widely dispersed, mitigating the damage done by any single dominant person. This does account for the ability of churches to exist that you describe, ones that are functioning and healthy. The the biggest difference between the PCA and SGM may be that several dominant personalities can wreck a congregation or even a presbytery in the PCA but SGM is small enough that the small group around Mahaney has the ability to wreck the denomination.
But much of the polity problems people have with SGM can be seen in PCA polity. I was taught in the PCA that the process in Matthew 18 was that was to take to one or two others to the offending brother and if he did not listen to you to take him to the elders. But Scripture actually says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church” [Matt 5.18]. Fundamentally the PCA confounds the elders and the session with the church.
This teaching is reflected in the PCA BCO (Book of Church Order), Section 12.5a which states the session has the power “[t]o inquire into the knowledge, principles and Christian conduct of the church members under its care; to censure those found delinquent…” The weighty responsibility to care for the souls of straying believers is stripped from the congregation and placed in the hands of a small group over the church.
Once this substitution of the session for the church is accepted in one’s mind, one comes to accept all sorts of powers as the prerogative of the session. On the matter of the church budget the PCA BCO does state the session has the power “to approve and adopt the budget” (Section 12.5b).
Some on this blog have commented that the pastor board of an SGM congregation has the power to sell the church building and move the congregation meetings to a rented school. This same power is granted to a PCA session, for it has the power “[t]o approve actions of special importance affecting church property” (BCO Section 12.5c)
Some here have commented that an SGM pastor can be removed from office without explanation to the congregation. A friend of mine actually saw this happen in a PCA congregation.
As for the comment for an RE having to pass muster with the session, my experience is that the session can act as a permanent nominating committee—nominating committees run by the pre-existing group in charge create the opportunity for abuse and the perpetuation of those in charge.
I think it needs to be pointed out–as diplomatic as possible–that when two churches share similar bad practices (or any behavior that bucks both the heart of their polity statement or frays the cords of essential Christian doctrines that span across the denoms) this does not mean their polity is in sync with each other, and that polity monikers can be mixed and matched.
There is also a tail-chasing aspect to all of this as well. This involves picking and choosing aspects of a polity–”Presbyterian” for example–like a salad bar and then stamping that name on it. It may be a particular brand of that polity, but is it really the entirety of that polity statement?
My whole point in even beginning to address the polity issue on this blog was to explore the fact that SGM was making grand claims about the biblical stamp of approval on their practices when in fact many could be called into question. Whatever the polity is, if a man’s practices (ultimately governed by his heart) are directing you to worship him instead of God, there’s a problem.
I sought to show that some polity structures–while flawed like everything else in our fallen world–appear to be able to handle wolves better than others.
Please understand…this is not an opportunity for any of us to pound our chests and decry ours the superior one. Discussion and even debate is fine; where I took issue was SGM’s declaration–via Dave Harvey–that Episcoalian and Presbyterian were (1) appear to be closer to Scripture than anything else out there and (2) this was what SGM was/is/will be practicing.
These declarations are a mixed bag, at best, and nowhere near conclusive.
SGM = paid pastors sent to congregations by a central office in MD. There are no elected leaders. Those paid pastors run the church. No voting by church on calling pastors or anyone else. No Book of Church Order used for polity. Head in MD, regional non-elected appointed apostle gives directions and discipline, local priests = episcopal model.
Presbyterian form of government = ruling and teaching elders elected by congregation. One vote per man. Book of Church Order. Local presbyteries, whose members have been elected to their positions by their congregations, oversee their own churches = prebyterian polity. Presbyterian system. Problems therein? Sure, we are all sinners.
I know polity is important. Maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess….but again I say…The leaders of Daytona and Metro Churches and those over them, should be ashamed of themselves for letting the deception get this far out of hand. This is terrible and lives are still being ruined in the church, because of the church.
Good Morning Folks….
This is little Charlie weighing in on We are Fam ill lee…..Now whats posted here must remain here and not be spoken about or discussed out side of this little box. You see thats what sick families do. They don’t reach outside for the help they need. They just put pressure and weights on their own, to keep the special little secrets. But some how they come out….don’t they.
If you are in a Sovereign Grace church. I don’t trust you. I don’t believe you. Mathew 18…it won’t work for me this time….It’s not been quite a year yet, but Danny still did not get back to me. I guess what I had to say didn’t matter as much as the current mud slide at Metro.
My investment is still family. Jim, your opening line, it broke my heart. Thanks for the exposure. I feel safe here. Charlie
Here is a brief recap of the main topics of the meeting…
Updates on changes made in response to the assessment team’s findings
The leadership team’s improved ability to work together
The pastors’ efforts to meet with every member who has concerns or critiques
An encouragement to godly communication and peacemaking within the church
Update on the sports ministry by Jesse (parents more involved, staff not as involved)
Report on finances, administration & scheduling by Chip
The situation with MN
Church polity (will still be led by staff elders, with input from congregation)
Metro Life’s relationship with SGM (a voluntary tie, not a legally binding one)
After this, there was a Q & A time in which several people presented questions or comments. The questions and answers were all cordially given — no raised voices or angry words. The entire meeting lasted nearly 2 hours.
For those who are interested in apologies, may I quote Danny in response to the situation with MN… His exact words are in quote marks. I was writing as fast as I could, so obviously I didn’t catch every word, thus the broken up sentences. All told I took about 17 pages of notes.
The timing of the announcement on a Sunday morning with children present “was not very helpful” and “caused a lot of concern… I understand now.” “I regret that. With God’s help, I’ll never do it again.” He acknowledged that it made it “difficult for the N— family” and “caused speculation.” He met with each member of the N— family to hear how it had affected them personally and is trying to make amends.
On the perception that MN was “under church discipline” Danny clarified to say that this was “never intended to be punitive” and that the words “evaluation and discipline” referred only to a time to seek God, think about what has happened, study what it means to manage his household well, get counsel, etc. MN is still a pastor and is still receiving pay, but he has been given several weeks off from pastoral duties (such as counseling and preaching) so he and his family can have time to think/talk/recover. He is still doing his regular administrative duties (children’s ministry, prayer meeting, etc.) Danny said about the miscommunication: “I sincerely apologize. I don’t have any excuses. The mistake was mine. It proved to be a lack of wisdom. I lament that.” And, “It broke my heart… It is something I’ve been very saddened by.” He also said that there has been “no backtracking or changing stance.”
Over all, I was mostly pleased with the meeting, which answered some questions for me. Last month, I have had lengthy face to face conversations with two of the pastors about my personal issues and concerns. I feel like they listened well and were gracious, even when I said things that were quite unpleasant for them to hear. We didn’t exactly come to an agreement on anything, but at least we heard each other out.
I know some people on Refuge are probably frustrated with me that I am still at MLC (for now) and still calling for peace and civility on the blog. At the same time, some people at MLC are frustrated with me that I even post here at all and that I have consistently been raising concerns about doctrinal and SGM issues over the past several months. I know I can’t please anyone all of the time, or everyone even some of the time. What I’m really trying to do is please God with speaking TRUTH with LOVE and without FEAR. I feel like I don’t have to be strident to be strong.
And yes, Jim, we ARE family, along with the rest of Christ’s body. There are so many dear people at MLC and so many dear people here on Refuge. We’ve all got a lot to learn!
“Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.” 2 Thessalonians 3:16
Thanks Vida.
Re people being frustrated, very well said.
Vida
No frustration here that you are still at MLC or calling for peace and civility on the blog. I do have a question:
Was any explanation given for why no real change in church polity?
It’s one of the core things that SGM requires of it’s family of churches. Someone asked that last night, and Danny confirmed what we’ve all known already. He took quite a bit of time explaining the 3 types of church government and all SGM churches must adhere to their version of the Presbyterian form.
Presbyterian form? They have always said in teh past that they have an episcopalian form, which is what they have. Their church polity is nothing like a presbyterian form.
As I understand it, Episcopal form has a bishop in authority over the church. SGM does not have this. The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity. (I sound like the couple farming mud in Monty Python and the Holy Grail).
“Authority in the presbyterian polity flows both from the top down (as higher assemblies exercise authority over individual congregations) and from the bottom up (as all officials ultimately owe their elections to individual church members). ”
I don’t see a “bottom up” in SGM. Also, the Presbyterian form of government (at least PCA) in the local church is made of ruling elders consisting primarily of elected members of the congregation. My pastor’s take is that he doesn’t like being ruled by the elders, because he doesn’t always get his way, but he could not imagine being pastor without them.
VS (MS)
Church polity (will still be led by staff elders, with input from congregation)
Metro Life’s relationship with SGM (a voluntary tie, not a legally binding one)
A good test for this one is for the leadership to announce to SGM that they are pulling out of SGM family of churches. How do you pull out of ‘the’ family? Yes they willing and voluntarily joined PDI/SGM but you cannot voluntarily depart SGM. It isn’t the local leadership but the extra-local authority that make those decisions.
There are several of us that would dispute that claim.
Thankyou, Vida, for bringing this report.
It is good Danny was remorseful for the Sunday morning meeting for the N family. (Still, the lack of wisdom and obvious discernment in that action is quite alarming).
Probably no changes in polity since Metro abides by the sgm polity structure. Therein, is another kettle of fish, so to speak.
Did they address, or anyone ask, about the unequal treatment of pastors (DJ and MN) in regards to being held responsible for adult childrens transgressions?
As WW pointed out, the PCA form of government is made of ruling elders consisting primarily of ELECTED MEMBERS of the congregation. This would be an extremely wide margin of difference in what sgm deems is the “Presbyterian Form” of church governance.
Do you think they recognize their destructive control and manipulation towards Gods people, as they abide by the sgm (arrogant) pastoral-laity divide??
……….and then there is the time frame of watching what type of fruit comes forth
(since Jesus said we will know them by their fruit). Praying for the members in MLC
as they process,discern,seek,pray………….
Presbyterian – Indeed. If SGM is presbyterian in church government, then we all are the knights that say “ni”. A comment like that (DJ on polity) will likely make PKnight roll over in his grave. O wait, he’s still alive …
CD – nice MP plug; you started it!
Still searching for the grail,
Former SG Pastor
Waters, there was some discussion during Q & A about the situation a few years ago with DJ’s son JJ. The question was whether DJ should be held accountable for this situation because JJ was under his direct supervision as youth pastor for several years, even if he had been out of the home for 10 years. The answer is that no one had any clue at all that this kind of behavior was happening then, so they couldn’t have done anything about it — as BP said, “Accountability is only as good as the honesty of the individuals.” Even his wife didn’t know. JJ himself got up and said a number of things, including, ”My sin was horrid,” and “The decisions I made were my decisions. Please don’t hold them responsible for what I did,” and “I’m a testimony of God’s grace.” I can say amen to that. I really respect him for doing that. I have seen a huge difference in him and so have many others. In the case of MN’s son, it was acknowledged earlier that people had been bringing their concerns about his behavior for quite a while — there were outward warning signals of trouble. Of course, hindsight is 20/20.
I don’t think there is really a huge difference in how this was handled as far as the direct ramifications on DJ and MN as pastors. I think DJ had a worse humiliation factor from the start. What happened completely shocked everyone since it had never happened before in the history of our church. We’re still feeling the consequences, especially among the youth who had looked up to him. Even if it wasn’t called out as a “season of evaluation and discipline,” DJ took ample time back then to reflect on the problem, get abundant and extended counsel from the other pastors and from Dave Harvey, and deal with the painful consequences. Perhaps it is his own experience which made it so sensible to give the same opportunity to MN to take time out.
Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential. The advisory committees (finances, sports ministry, etc.) do not have any governance over the pastors. Danny has communicated to me clearly in a personal meeting that MLC makes no apologies for its polity and has no intentions to change it. They understand why other church groups do it differently, but this is how they see it from their own study of the Bible. I can respect that, even if I wish it would work better at MLC. He said that church polity is one essential area in which all SGM churches must agree as they are planted or adopted. In response to a question later, he said that an example of an area in which SGM churches may differ is the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the functioning of the gifts. Some churches are more visibly charismatic in their outlook and style. He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.
I hope these comments are helpful to all on both sides of the varoius conflicts within MLC and SGM. I am trying to stick to the facts of what was said without too much of my own commentary.
”The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity. ”
REALLY? So BP voluntarily put himself in Pastors College? And K. Jacob and D. Bendinelli volutarily left their posts and weren’t fired by Shank et al?
Did the congregation really believe that?
Jim, I’m so proud of you and your work, on and offline, and I believe a good part of the confession(s) made last night had your fingerprints all over it. For God’s reputation.
Thanks Vita, for the update.
I sure would like to know if anybody tried to hold the leadership to scripture, and if so how Danny & co. responded.
Ya know, I am sitting here thinking about your report, and the time I came back from a meeting with KJ, and when asked by my wife “How’d it go?” I replied “Oh pretty good.”
It was early on in our SGM problems, and I still could not believe that a pastor, (an SGM pastor) could possibly be as evil as it turned out he actually was.
Looking back, it was like having temporary insanity.
I don’t want to put a cloud on your report, it’s just that I won’t be surprised if Danny & Co later disproves your “good feelings” about this meeting.
Someday soon perhaps.
It will continue until people stop “believing the best” in these guys, and hold them to their words in the light of Scripture.
Until then the sheep will continue to be slaughtered and eaten.
Just my take…..
Please don’t tell me that Danny used the word “Presbyterian”. This is EXACTLY like using the word “discipline” and then saying, “I didn’t mean discipline in that way.”
Danny, these are commonly used words which bear a common understanding.
The idea that a pastor should be held accountable for the actions of his 23-year-old son is completely ridiculous and is one of the things that drives me nuts about sg.
Once a church is “in the family”, they can’t get out. It’s only happened one time that I know of – the Ohio church back in the mid 90s. If pastors aren’t going along with the SGM line, they’ll be replaced with those that do. All this talk of the local churches not being legally tied to SGM is an illusion.
I wonder, who legally holds the title for each church? If the pastors decide to sell property owned by “the church” and donate most of it to SGM (missions, donchaknow?), WHO is going to stop them? They can sell the church property and the members can go back to meeting at local schools and motel conference rooms if that is what SGM wants them to do and there isn’t a thing the membership can do, because members have no legal right to say ANYTHING. The sad thing is, most members would think that it was all God’s will that their leadership would do something like this.
All this about being a family of churches and each church is local and financially independent is an illusion. It’s all smoke and mirrors. SGM is a business, your “local church” is a franchise, plain and simple.
It looks like things are going to get better at MLC. And that is what i prayed for the Lord to do so im happy. Also too Vida and all the others that attended MLC, I think its great that you are staying and trying to work through this painful time. I also have been going through a ton of stuff at my new church!!!! Not a SGM church, But i believe God placed me there for a reason so i struggle on praying every step of the way. Every church is going to be attacked by the enemy. Sometimes its outside but most of the time its inside. We are our greatest enemies to eachother. Anyways keep up the Good Work and I will continue praying for all of you.
Collateral – July 8th 3:05 PM (I sound like the couple farming mud in Monty Python and the Holy Grail).
Listen, strange women lyin’ in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
(OK, back to the serious side of this blog)
SGM Refuge….A haven for castaways
Ellie – you may be correct in your remembrance of the church in Ohio. I was thinking of Ken R. as one of the churches on my list of one who left PDI under unpleasant circumstances but it may have been more amicable than I remember. The Cleveland church was a flagship church originally planted by Larry and then Steve. It was years after they left that anyone talked about it. Because no one mentioned it in a public setting I don’t think it was a very good thing for PDI. But I have to be honest I can’t remember the details. I certainly will trust your perspective.
Irv,
here’s a post from last year by a former North Coast Church member:
<b>Dear Jim and Carole and Regular Contributors,
Wow – I just came across this website recently. I didnt know anything like this existed. Thanks for all you do to help those who have been hurt and disillusioned in SGM churches.
My story is dated now and my wife and I have long since moved on from PDI/SGM. But we still sometimes talk about the great work the Lord started in Cleveland, Ohio through PDI, and how disappointing that we all weren’t able to sustain it.
North Coast Church was one of PDI’s first church plants</b> [***see my note below concerning church planting***] <b>in Cleveland, Ohio . Larry and Doris T and a small team came to Larry’s hometown to start a church in the southwest suburbs. My wife was one of the first locals to join up, and she and some of the other single women were discipled by Doris T while Larry worked with the men. Within a few years, the church had almost 1000 members and was one of the most influential churches in NE Ohio. When I joined in 1984, Steve S was the senior pastor and the church was clearly thriving. Larry T. still visited often and his sister and her husband were influential members. The church was made up of mostly young marrieds and hundreds of committed singles. Many singles such as my wife and I lived in singles households. I grew up in a large unchurched family, and my brothers and sisters were amazed at the number of friends we all had. We were convinced we were at the center of what the Lord was doing in Cleveland.
But there were problems behind the scenes. The first Sunday I attended, one of the four pastors announced that he was stepping down from leadership. Steve S said that this pastor needed more time to work on his marriage and his calling. The pastor did not seem to agree, as he said the Lord was calling him to Canada. Steve S said the other pastors could not lay hands on him and bless his decision.
Soon after, the church announced a new plant in Akron (about an hour south of Cleveland) . Another of the four pastors was sent out to lead that church. But in less than a year the pastor was gone and disillusioned. There is still a SGM church in Akron today, but it has never really grown much after 20 years.
Steve S handed off the church to the third pastor, Ken R, in 1985 , and headed off to Virginia Beach to start another PDI work. But Steve and Ken did not see eye-to-eye, and eventually Steve and Dave H asked Ken to step down as senior pastor. Ken R did not agree, and the majority of the pastoral team backed Ken. So in 1994 , the members of NCC received a letter from Ken and the pastors stating that our church was ending its relationship with PDI becuase of doctrinal and leadership differences. Many people such as my wife and I were hurt and confused, and there was no real explanation from either our church or from PDI.
After much prayer, my wife and I decided to leave North Coast Church and started attending the closest PDI church in Akron. Many others left, many stayed at NCC, but long-time friendships were severed. If any of you have experienced a church split, you know how wrenching that can be.
We and many others appealed to Dave H to please not abandon a PDI vision for Cleveland. Enough of us called that Dave agreed to come and meet with us. Several hundred people came to the meeting at a hotel with Dave H and Steve S . People hugged and cried and believed God would raise up another great church in Cleveland. But Dave and Steve had a list of criteria before a church could be planted. There would need to be a commitment of support , and the PDI leadership would need to pray about whether they could support a new plant. We were told to wait and pray. Many of us did both, but it was almost 2 years before a decision to plant a Cleveland church was made. Most of the several hundred people at the original meeting, including my wife and I, had moved on to other churches by that time. We eventually left the Akron church because it was too far, and floundered for a few years, but today we are happily plugged in to a CMA church.
I wish the story had a better ending. North Coast Church also suffered after leaving PDI. The name changed, Ken R eventually left, and today it has only a few hundred attenders. The Cleveland SGM church today, like the one in Akron, has remained small without a permanent church building.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the failures here in Cleveland. Leadership could not stay united, and most of us saints did not have the faith to perservere when our world was shaken. But I cant help wonder why the PDI team didn’t see hundreds of people showing up on a winter night from just word of mouth as a clear sign that the Lord still had work for them in Cleveland. And I also wonder why the PDI/SGM and NCC leadership couldn’t work together to save a great church.
But praise the Lord that He is faithful , even when we are weak! Today there are many strong and growing churches in Cleveland. And almost everyone one of them has a few ex NCC members on the road to full healing.
Thanks for reading this long and rambling post.
Blessings to you all!</b>
And then there’s this posted on the old Survivors’ message board:
<b>“In June of 1997, the North Coast Church in Ohio terminated their relationship with the PDI (which turned into Sovereign Grace Ministries on September 1, 2002). Their “apostolic” overseers claimed that the member church did not have the spiritual authority to leave the “family of churches, but the pastoral staff at North Coast differed with that opinion.
Of concern to North Coast were, among others, the apostolic team’s recent focus and strong stand regarding reformation Theology and elements of Calvinism, their exclusiveness with regards to other churches outside of PDI, a variety of issues with the concept of apostles, and the limiting of women from certain areas of ministry and the workplace.</b>
Opps, North Coast wasn’t the only church to leave, I just found this that Gracie posted last year:
<b>The saga of the Cleveland church sounds somewhat similar to the Atlanta church. PDI wanted to discipline the senior pastor for a season while he took a sabbatical. The pastor saw that more was afoot (like losing his church and job) and refused to cooperate. The church pulled out of PDI affiliation, causing a painful church split. Larry T. was sent to pick up the PDI pieces, but shortly thereafter was himself removed. We were not involved in the Atlanta PDI church at all, but have many dear friends who went through that whole season.</b>
***PDI/sgm didn’t plant North Coast. It was an existing fellowship before PDI showed up.
From the WorldView Community Church (formerly known as North Coast) website:
<b>“WorldView Community Church began as a group of 12 people meeting together in a home in Brunswick, Ohio in 1980. By 1981, this flourishing congregation had grown to 100 members and began to meet in a local elementary school. Because of the increase of membership, additional pastoral leadership from a church in Washington, D.C. relocated to the area to provide support.”</b>
I think most of the churches that they “planted” were fellowships that were taken over because they “needed guidance”. In my opinion, SGM is still doing the same thing – only now they call it “adopting churches”.
Okay, if they said they were Presbyterian i am astounded. First of all becuase I used to attend Cov LIfe and have known many of the pastors and they have always said that their church government is modeled on the espicopalian model. I think it might even talk about that in the polity book. And beleive me they do have bishops – they just call them apostles and they have the authority to demote and move pastors without the consent of the congregation. And to say they are Presbyterian is a joke, there is nothing presbyterian about their form of government, Presbyterian is all built on checks and balances, which there are none in SGM. And the congregation has ultimate authority in most things, especially in choosing officers including elders, deacons and pastors – they all have to be voted and approved by the conrgegation if they are to have any authority over the conregation (the only exception is assistant (not associate) pastors who are called by the session and are not part of the session.) There are procedures in all the church bylaws to even bring about an elecetion for a pastor wihtout the session’s consent. And everything can be appealed in a normally open court case and taken up to higher and higher levels, not done behind closed doors like at SGM.
Episcopal form has a bishop in authority over the church. SGM does not have this. The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity.
Ha. Hahahaha.
Pass the barf bucket.
CeeJay is the Pope, he speaks ex cathedra and is the voice of God, and the local pastors smile cheerfully and obey, or get degifted.
Who do they think they are kidding?
DJ can stand up and say (quoting from CD, not DJ): ‘The SGM apostles have no authority over the local churches. They give counsel, they do not control. Each church is its own legal, autonomous entity.’
On paper it certainly is autonomous in practice, but if CJ or DH drop by and tells the elders that DJ is being de-gifted, is anyone really going to stop it, or even question him about it?
Presbyterian, Thankyou for outlining the significant strong-points of the true Presbyterian form . (and maybe since sgm is “essetially” Reformed they can say they are “kinda” Presbyterian and thus omit the congregational voice and decisions).
Vida reported DJ explaining to MLC: “A plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home-group leaders, and ministry leaders. Major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding and that every member has a voice and is essential.”— That SOUNDS so good–so right—so safe————IS it true???? Has it been true???? Will it be true for the future??
sgm now addresses pastors as elders. So when we hear ‘elder’ we must remember they are speaking of their ‘elders’, the pastors, their “plurality of local elders” is their local pastoral board. NO congregational elders,with a voice representing the congregants exists.
In 19 years we never heard of any “major pending decisions”—only decisions after they were made. Pastors were suddenly set aside as it had been determined they were “not gifted pastorally”. We were definitely quietly led for years int0 Calvinistic doctrine and church structure without them declaring they were going that way. In Chesapeake, KB spent many months,alongside an attorney, drawing up the ‘new doctrine’ declaring there could be no separation in a troubled marriage, with the consequence of church discipline and ex-communication for those who disobeyed. Jeff Purswell aided him in this. Thanks to the “3 Couples” this document was stopped. (Iwonder, though, have they instituted insidiously behind the scenes?)..
I agree with what Defender alluded to —they say one thing, and do another.
That “every member has a voice and is essential”. ?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
Every member has a voice—so not to be charged with sin and pride when a concern is brought to the pastor/elder but really valued and heard???? Or pastor/elder listen but its apparent they don’t really hear you??
As DJ made it crystal clear—they are a part of sgm and the sgm polity. They donot see that their polity is the source of control, manipulation,life-lessness,mauling, etc etc
The polity structure thrives on the great chasm between pastor and laity. It is what it is.
WW-good point RE paper vs practice. This needs to watched to see how it plays out.
Waters-one of my favorite phrases-it is what it is.
I had a conversation last night that caused me to take my temperature. I have great hope for reconciliation between beaten sheep and shepherds with sticks, as I’m seeing it occur.
I have zero hope for reform. SGM is digging in their heels. They are pastors, and you are not.
The divide is huge and will not change. It is what it is.
Vida,
Keep speaking the truth in love and calling for peace! As long as you’re pleasing to God, I’m happy.
Stunned
SGM is somewhat Presbyterian in its form of government? What’s that mean? They have a bunch of middle aged white men in charge? OK, I see that. But that’s about it. I grew up Presbyterian. I was part of my churches efforts to NOMINATE and ELECT those who helped run the church. That DOESN’T happen in any SGM church. My sister has been married to a Presbyterian minister for 30+ years. To this day, their form of church government is NOTHING like that in SGM.
If they get to say that they have a form that is similar to the Presbyterian form of government and be believed (and have people act like this is true) then I’d like to borrow the house keys and car keys from those same people while also “borrowing” their children to do some light housework for me while I take over your home. I’ll also be borrowing your bank accounts and your PIN numbers, using up to the tune of one billion dollars. You can trust me with this all. I’m the son of a wealthy African king and will have all the diamonds in the world to pay you back.
Now if you don’t believe me without more evidence, why would you believe these guys with your family’s lives? (And what I mean by that snarky remark is to please learn about Presbyterian governance for youself and then compare it to what you see at SGM and see if they are telling you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or if they are more like the episcopalian structure or not. if they are, why would they not tell you that truth?)
Waters said, “In 19 years we never heard of any “major pending decisions”—only decisions after they were made.”
Ditto that for my 15 years there.
Vida and co.:
This is not a personal attack on anyone, but I am going to say the gloves are off on my comments.
Vida: in re: your 7/8 comment at 5:04pm: “Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
What drives me crazy about DJ’s irresponsible Presbyterian paralleling is that members of the flock will adopt that and start telling people that. I’ve seen it happen, and I’ve even participated in foolish mimicry of this nature, God forgive me.
Here’s the problem, and it is reflected in the noncommittal statement of DJ saying SGM “sort of” has a polity sort of like the sort of Presby-sort of-terians…sort of:
SGM wants to have its cake and it eat it too in regard to polity. They will not, will not, WILL NOT identify themselves with any polity structure, even comparatively, and their refusal to lay it out clearly characterizes the whimsically superior ”it’s all about relationships” nature of it that has gone on for three plus decades. SGM churches are about as Presbyterian as Earth is similar to Jupiter. They are both planets (denominations), but the similarities cosmically end there, not to mention they are 900 million kilometers apart from each other.
Sovereign Grace Ministries exercises a downhill-running, pyramid-shaped organizational hierarchy with bishopric authority. It then slaps evangelical labels onto it, plain and simple. SGM can call it anything they want to, but if it looks like a goose, acts like a goose, runs around in a goose pen and honks like a goose, it’s a goose, beloved. Calling it an eagle means re-defining the meaning of words, which is silly on the low end and sloppy on the high end of discussion.
I don’t care how mean any of this sounds, but something needs to be made very clear to any SGM member or pastor running around saying SGM has something close to a Presbyterian form of polity: rubbing elbows in the t4G realm with guys like RC and Ligon does NOT make you anything remotely like a Presbyterian. You may be brothers and sisters in Christ with them, but don’t ever crib the label Presbyterian and try to paste it into anything remotely SGM, because the practices of your church bear little to no resemblance to theirs.
Do your due diligence in terms of examining a Presbyterian form of government–dust off Grudem’s Systematic Theology and go to p. 926. SGM isn’t on the same planet as the Presbytery. Thumb back to p. 924 and examine the Episcopalian form of polity, and you start to get somewhere in the amalgamated neighborhood of SGM. I say amalgamated because a dizzying exchange and mishmash of Catholic, Evangelical, and Reformed words/offices/systems takes place.
Bishops are instead Apostles/Regional leaders/whatever, Rectors become Senior Pastors, and so forth. This is incessantly thrown into a blender with phrases like “getting the gospel right, gospel-centered ______, biblical_____,” and the result is a system that at best exudes and at worst believes itself to be the most authentic form of Christianity and the most accurate form of Christ’s church, in particular.
The comment “…major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential,” is, from my point of view, complete and utter fiction. In 22 plus years of being in SGM across three churches, I never witnessed anything of the sort.
Meetings are not “confirmations,” but pep rallies in regard to these things, and as far as any major decisions, it’s kept within the tenuous realm of elders. And one could seriously argue that in many instances this realm is a group of yes-men responding to the senior pastor. “Every member has a voice” means have an agreeable voice or have a private meeting regarding your disruptive or bad or unbiblical un-gospel-centered or not-getting-the-gospel-right attitude.
Buttressing leadership’s high view of itself, I think of Jay’s comment in the Moving On section, July 8, 2010 at 1:15pmt: “SGMer [said]: ‘You know, scripture shows clearly only Apostles/leaders are to go on mission trips. After all we don’t read of the non-leadership going on mission trips.’”
I don’t care if the SGMer who said this to Jay is in the minority in regard to SGM flock members who run around supermarkets saying things like this to ex-SGMers; he got it from somewhere in his discussions with leaders and other members in SGM regarding this, and shame on the lot of them for making such an unjustifiably huge assertion on who is and who isn’t called into the mission field.
The systemic centrism of SGM leadership knows no bounds in its pride and arrogance that it transfers to its flock…and my heart is breaking–no joke, I weep as I write this–for them and those they are charged to care for. I don’t see myself as superior to any brother or sister in SGM…ever. But I do grieve that this gulf between leaders and sheep is so deep and so wide.
–pk
“On the perception that MN was “under church discipline” Danny clarified to say that this was “never intended to be punitive” and that the words “evaluation and discipline” referred only to a time to seek God, think about what has happened, study what it means to manage his household well, get counsel, etc.”
Being under “church discipline” isn’t “punitive”? Huh? This one has me scratching my yellow head. Squawk…
PK*************
T H A N K Y O U T H AN K Y O U T H A N K Y O U
You have addressed the heart and core that will remain in sgm as an infested seed — and I too, am so so grieved that this seed multiplies itself in particular in this form:
“The systemic centrism of sgm leadership knows no bounds in its pride and arrogance THAT IT TRANSFERS TO THE FLOCK”…..We watch the effects of this in our brothers and sisters in sgm…. it is religous leaven…and it slowly chokes out abundant life and the ablility to discern, even to discern good from evil. God help us.
PK-I wasn’t baiting you when I commented, oh-no-he-didn’t, but I was sure hoping you’d jump in. I might have actually waiting until tomorrow before sending you an email
Thanks for sharing your heart, bro….
Jim:
You didn’t bait me. PD made a comment in passing last night that someone in SGM leadership said that Presbys were the closest thing to SGM’s polity, and I just about sprayed coffee through my nose and spit bullets through my teeth. I needed a night to calm down before posting, and for the first time I found myself weeping over all of this.
Love you and Carole…
–pk
The comment “…major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential,” is, from my point of view, complete and utter fiction. In 22 plus years of being in SGM across three churches, I never witnessed anything of the sort.
Just for the record, I was a part of pdi/sgm for 16 years and only once witnessed a pastor putting together a team of men to give input on something. ONCE. The church building fund wasn’t growing fast enough so the pastor asked these hand-chosen men, including my husband, to review the facts, talk with others, and tell the pastor what they believed was slowing down the funding. After making a thorough review, the team told the pastor that too many people felt like they were in debt to the church by having made a “comittment” about how much they would give. They were overextended by having been asked to make a financial goal of how much they would give (manipulated by some guy who was hired to encourage the flock to give more than what they could by faith). The pastor firmly rejected this finding. The team was dissolved.
In my experience, we were told about church decisions AFTER they were made, not before. Mere sheeplings were not consulted, even about building a church where the money was coming from our pockets. Is it different in ML? SGM polity would suggest “no”. It would be interesting to hear from the members there – is it true that “every member has a voice”?
PK,
In NO WAY are you attacking anyone. You have clearly articulated truth and I for one want to thank you. Everything you said is true and you said it with no anger or bitterness. Truth revealed is a good thing and is in no way attacking someone. For years, SGM has instilled in all of us that to speak truth indicates a root of bitterness or gossip or attacking someone. Far from the truth!
Vida: in re: your 7/8 comment at 5:04pm: “Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
I personally have not heard Danny say this, however…..this statement is full of false statements and out and out LIES, full of deception concerning SGM polity and what is really going on in their churches…… “major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.” This is absolutely not true. The pastors/elders of SGM make ALL the decisions without any communication with the members (” Vida said that Danny said, “every member has a voice and is essential”). If this wasn’t real life it would be comical. Because it is real life and dealing with real people, it is grievious. And, the people sitting in the pews are actually believing it….. Go figure!
MetroStill–
I so enjoy your posting, thank you for your tone.
SGM is very much episcopal: centrally controlled, assignment of pastors by a central office. No control by the laiety. Apostolic oversight by bishops? Yup. The five apostles (they have a new title now) set out regionally and called in when there is a problem. No elections of any positions.
No deacons. No diaconate. No elders. No session. No Presbyterian. No way.
Hey, y’all!
Just wanted to let you know I’m kind of pregnant. Even though I’m fifty, if you know what I mena, and my husband went, years ago, to visit the doc, if you know what I mean.
But I insist on claiming to be kind of pregnant, and you can’t dissuade me. Some of my friends are pregnant, too, and we hang out alot together. That’s how I know I’m kind of pregnant. ‘Cause they are my friends, and THEY ARE PREGNANT!
Na-na-neebooboo.
Ladies and gentlemen – I want to bring something to everyone’s attention. I have some very close friends still in SGM churches and some that have just recently left after 20+ years in SGM (like myself), that are communicating a very similar story to me from “all parts”.
Their message goes something like this “something is definitely happening on the leadership level, long-standing folks are leaving (some en mass), leadership is starting to reach out (or attempt to do so) – make calls – visits etc, they are calling for some congregational input for the first time etc….”
I do not want to bring false hope, or suggest to ease up on the quest for truth and God’s best for his people, however the opposite, I want to encourage not only those who communicate here at sgmref & sgmsurv, but those that are in the SGM churches. Things are beginning to “shake”. Thanks be to God!
Take this small comment that Vida Savta noted from DJ that said “He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.” Not to belabor the issue of who owns the church etc. but why would DJ see the need to say such a thing, if in fact, there was no “possibility or consideration or discussion” of that reality. Think about it, they (MLC Leaders) must be getting enough info from “outside and inside” that has them really thinking (my hope and prayer). When Todd T. left and listed his “doctrinal differences” don’t you believe it may have had an impact to promote at least the thoughts and consideration of the issues.
I want to encourage all who have left, are about to leave, are unsure, are staying, to press hard into God to seek him for the part you are to play. God can work through us all to bring glory to Himself! This is no small, minor, local issue. We know many of the stories of real people, who’s real lives have been dramatically and tragically impacted by this “slow creep” of extra-biblical doctrine that has “taken root” in the SGM denomination. I wonder how many stories we don’t know? God does.
Press on brothers and sisters!
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” (2 Cor 5:10)
Oh my gosh, you had me going, RT. I was getting ready to cheer and celebrate! (And laugh in a nice kind of way, to tell you the truth!) Oh my gosh, you are awesome!
RT-perfect!
So, let me get this straight….. SGM is “Essentially Presbyterian” .
Just like RT is “Essentially Pregnant”.
Right??
I think the terminology is “essentially Reformed”…. and “‘sort of’ Presbyterian”
;o)
PK……..excellent. Thank you.
Apelogeito:
Good post at July 9th, 2010 at 4:42 pm.
It did not go unnoticed by me and I’m sure many others.
When things shake, that’s a good sign.
–pk
PK–
I know I keep beating this bush…but in a world filled with pastors who lack a pastor’s heart, you stand out as a “pastoral candidate,” to use a stuffy word.
One of the reasons I say that is that you have a burning passion to protect the sheep, and the only time I see your hackles rise is when the church is being attacked. You have such a Jesus heart for his people and for righteousness.
You don’t have to wait around until your under-educated pastors tell you to go, you know. Out here in Freedomland, where you now reside, you can hear God’s leading all by yourself.
I’m just saying is all.
RT — Honeybun, you just PROVED that you are Presbyterian — no WAY that SGM would be Presbyterian in the same way, cause no good SGM guy would agree to THAT kind of a dr visit. Therefore, SGM canNOT be Presbyterian.
Does that reasoning sound circularly familiar?
The sad thing about the Sorta Presbyterian Declaration is that yet another perfectly good, formerly definable word now has an SGM-slanted meaning. Add that one to their tweaked definitions of terms like pastor, elder, grace, reformed, charismatic, youth group, priesthood of all believers, sin, legalism, children’s ministry…and there you have it. SGM is “Sorta Mormon” in that they use terms that we THINK we understand, but they’ve got a whole ‘nother definition going on.
Once, I asked someone who attends a large “community church” what kind of church it is. He answered that it’s Baptist. Later, I found that it’s not Baptist at all — but in HIS experience, it is sorta Baptist because it’s evangelical and practices believer’s baptism. Now, I can accept this kind of error from a non-educated, fairly new Christian who doesn’t understand the term Baptist. But when someone known as a pastor, apostle, elder (or other current buzz-term) states that SGM is Sorta Presbyterian, I have to wonder if his seminary is accredited…
Meanwhile, I invite everybody to a sorta baby shower for RT. I’m thinking we’ll have it at Panera because it’s sorta like McDonald’s.
“Danny did not say that the SGM form of government is the same as the Presbyterians. He said it was sort of like that, and more like that than any it is like congregational (majority rule) rule or episcopal (bishop rule). It is a plurality of local elders who are in direct communication with the congregation, home group leaders and ministry leaders. He said that major pending decisions are communicated to members for input and confirmation before proceeding, and that every member has a voice and is essential.”
SINCE WHEN?????????????? NOT THE 22 YEARS I WAS THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have to be kidding! MLC folks, have you looked at the numbers in the church lately? Again, how many Nathans have come in the past year PLUS with input? The response Danny J was ” we just don’t see that”. How many people left BECAUSE they did not listen, hear or want to hear, and NOW all of a sudden every member has a voice? I had 4 pages of VOICE with Danny. I had 3 pages of VOICE for Benny.
Unless you agree with an “I Am Metro Life Church” – The Exclusive Club T Shirt- attitude, no one has a voice. That was my experience. I just left formally in June. I understand that there is another long standing family in the wings about to do the same.
For the sake of the name of Christ, when are they going to wake up?????
Polity and accountability need to change.
Oh Square One, great ending and “logic” throughout.
Can we please add “love” to the list of words they have redefined? Along with “church” and “commitment”, “friendship” and “family”? Not to mention what it means to “trust God” and to “glorify God”.
SNIPETS from the WARTBURG WATCH
“The Bible’s words can be twisted and turned to justify many things. However, one of the most disturbing trends is to label someone a “gossip” if said person is trying to expose sin in the church. Think about all the Old Testament prophets. Wasn’t their focus purity among God’s people? ”
“I deplore Christian organizations that “cover up” sin in order to “protect the church. These pastors and organization are protecting no one but their own sorry backsides. These supposed “warriors” for Christ will point fingers at the world but hide their own sins. Their nonsense about “gossip” is to a scare tactic to shut up the truth. Their hogwash about “protecting” the church illuminates their total lack of understanding that Jesus protects the church, not them. Deep down inside they are “hiding their sin” and they know it.”
“These types of leaders reinforce their power by misusing Scripture to silence those who would bring up the issue of the abusive pastor. They are told they are “gossiping.” Gossiping is unbiblical, isn’t it? Unfortunately, the average church attendee is cowed by this accusation and shuts up.”
“”Funny thing about Scripture, though, is that the stories in the Bible often times seem focused on the sin. And sin, by most accounts, tends to be negative. For example, there was that icky issue with David and Bathsheba. Nathan, the prophet, confronted David. Perhaps things would have gone a whole lot better had Nathan focused on the positive. You know, “David loves God and loves to dance”. “Touch not the Lord’s anointed.” “You don’t really know what happened with Bathsheba, do you? It’s just a bunch of gossip. Just be glad that David is a good king.””
POINT MADE~
I think it would be interesting and encouraging to know what books you all are reading to help you grow into fullness in Christ in light of your experiences (positive or negative) with SGM churches. Someone on Survivors recommended They Found by Secret by Raymond Edman quite a while ago and I found it in a used bookstore. It is a collection of short bios of notable Christians. I really liked it. I also love anything written by Gary Thomas. (That is an understatement.)
At the moment, I am reading To Be Told by Dan Allender, which I started a long time ago but never finished. It is about understanding the story of your past and writing your future. I am planning to order Quivering Daughters: Hope and Healing for the Daughters of Patriarchy by Hillary McFarland (http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/).
What are you all reading? How has it made an impact on you to bring truth and grace?
Quoting a Quote…
“Take this small comment that Vida Savta noted from DJ that said “He did say that MLC has the absolute right to withdraw from SGM at any time since it is voluntary association within a family of churches. SGM has no legal tie to MLC and no claim on its assets.” “
Being a former board member of a SGM church, I have to disagree with this statement. I have read the whole legal documents, I actually studied them. The document upon any change from association from SGM required all remaining assets to be given to SGM headquarters.
Did not seem to me that there were “no legal ties”.
vida— i read the Bible. His Word is sufficient!!!!
Chief One Pac, would you be so kind as to identify the document in question by name and quote the exact words? Danny clearly said the SGM had no claim on the assets.
Azaziah, I think the Bible is a “given” for all of us. At least I hope it is!
Azaziah, I hope that’s a “given” that all of us to read the Bible!
Vida- I think reading what other men and women think the Bible says has created a lot of the difficulties in Christianity. The simplicity in knowing Christ was born, Christ lived a sinless life was crucified, raised from the dead, ascended to the Father, sent the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth and that Christ will come again is pretty much all we need to know. Ok, that is pretty simple–isn’t it.
Excellent point about the Bible, Azaziah. But still, reading a variety of Christian books can help broaden our perspective and challenge us to either confirm or lay aside assumptions we have already picked up from others along the way. It helps us to think, “Was this really Biblical?” instead of just assuming it is.
P.S. Unrelated tidbit: Just noticed there should be an “h” in “Shavta” in my name – I must have missed that the first time I posted under the name “Vida Shavta.” I think both “savta” and “shavta” are correct English spellings of the Hebrew word for grandmother, but I want to be consistent with what I’ve written elsewhere. But you all can just call me plain Vida anyway.
VS -
I have found listening to scripture as it is read aloud to be a great balm. I do this on my daily commute and enjoy 30+/- minutes, twice daily, of mostly uninterrupted listening. The gospels and the OT prophets have been poignant in this fashion.
There are links on this site to Steve Brown’s “Scandalous Freedom”. I’ve listened and read through that.
Don Carson’s book “How Long” provides a beneficial view of suffering in general.
Another help – CS Lewis’s “Screwtape Letters”, both read and listened to (the John Cleese version). I was late in recognizing the spiritual conflict that engulfed me at SG. Lewis (and Cleese) helped me see it in the rearview mirror.
All this and 4 bucks will get you a venti frappy something,
Former SG Pastor
“Azaziah – you said “i read the Bible. His Word is sufficient!!!!”
Then why do we listen to sermons? Why listen to anyone teach? Why listen to the opinions of friends or spouses when they discuss the things of God? Rather than the hostile attitude towards what others have to say in book form, why not embrace them ALONG with Bible study. Be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water in your simmering anger towards SGM (Almost all of Tozer’s books are just sermons put to print so you would be safe with Tozer)
You read what other believers say on these blogs – which are just small short stories (books) – someone else’s thoughts. It is our duty to read with discernment and not accept what the author says in the same way we listen to teaching and are called to be Bereans.
Paul- Why the attack. the bible says his word is sufficient. vida asked what we have been reading. i answered. I am reading the Bible. Why do you say i am angry. Really. the assumptions in your statements are puzzling.
FSGP– Screwtape Letters read by John Cleese. Interesting.
Paul- Furthermore isn’t the books and interpretation of what other men have to say about the Word led to all the schisms in Christianity and the errors of SGM/metro??? I didn’t say it was wong to read other books, i said the Word of Godf is sufficient. that is where I am at since having a huge library of other men’s readings didn’t sttop me from following error and bad doctrine. Since i have been reading just the Bible i have come to experience great freedom!!!!
Paul, I didn’t take it as an attack or sense any anger on Azaziah’s part. He made a good point. So did you. And thanks, FSGP, for your giving some book titles. I like Screwtape Letters, too. And I love the gospels. I’ve been studying all four concurrently, event by event, for several months, though not every single day.
Azaziah, there are certainly seasons in our lives where a “Bible only” spiritual reading diet is most appropriate!
I like to think of reading a Christian book as having an extended conversation with another brother or sister in Christ. It is a practical and durable way for authors to “encourage one another and build each other up” as they draw out practical applications of the Word for different areas of life. Elizabeth George has been a good one for me as a wife, mom and homemaker. I want to reread her Beautiful in God’s Eyes, which is about Proverbs 31.
Chief One Pac, would you be so kind as to identify the document in question by name and quote the exact words? Danny clearly said the SGM had no claim on the assets.
The phrase- “No claim” clearly has been redefined in typical SGM style. I doubt this document was made available for reproduction and what Chief One Pac has said does not surprise me in the least.
Vida,
I am currently reading “God’s Greater Glory” by Bruce Ware, it gives some very clear explanation for the apparent (to me at least) contradiction between God’s sovereignty in all things and our free will. This is an issue that has been very much on my mind of late. Also I recommend most anything by Timothy Keller, CS Lewis and A.W. Tozer.
Jim,
Are you familiar with the document that Chief One Pac has referred to?
Chuck
Chief One Pac, was that a church plant, or an adopted church. I can certainly see the reason behind that verbiage if it was a plant, though I would think the assets would go back to the source church of the plant rather than SGM, though I guess funds could come from both sources.
VS. I have recently re-read for the ? time the Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. very enlightening in it’s profound simplicity.
Last week I just read Dr Buttar’s new book, The Nine Steps to Keep the Doctor Away(a medical book but spiritual also) and I just bought Eat Pray Love and haven’t read it yet.
I plan to order Quivering Daughters soon too.
Walking Wounded,
It was a plant and not an adoption. Let me just say there were, to my shame and others, many things that were not following the legal law after evaluating and understanding the bylaw document.
Vida,
You can get my email from Jim if you would like, and I can discuss with you off line. I prefer talking about the SGM issues, verbally…
From the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006:
5. Member-churches may discontinue their affiliation with Sovereign Grace at any time with or without cause by providing written notice to Sovereign Grace and participating in an exit interview with representatives appointed by the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace. Likewise, Sovereign Grace may remove a church from member-church status through the same procedure. When a member-church chooses to no longer affiliate with Sovereign Grace,
the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace will relinquish its role in a God-honoring manner, and grant that church the freedom to withdraw unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
Old Timer,
I love Brother Andrew’s book. Have you ever read Andrew Murray’s works? He became my “pastor” after I left PDI, even though he is with the Lord. His books taught me how to yield to God and how to wait on Him. I will love to shake his hand in heaven.
Vida, I also have read “The Best of Tozer”, and a few of Frank Viola’s books. One of my favorite books in the Bible is Hebrews, as it taught me how to walk by faith and not by sight.
apelogeito said:
“Their message goes something like this “something is definitely happening on the leadership level, long-standing folks are leaving (some en mass), leadership is starting to reach out (or attempt to do so) – make calls – visits etc, they are calling for some congregational input for the first time etc….”
I do not want to bring false hope, or suggest to ease up on the quest for truth and God’s best for his people, however the opposite, I want to encourage not only those who communicate here at sgmref & sgmsurv, but those that are in the SGM churches. Things are beginning to “shake”. Thanks be to God!”
I wonder how true this is and if it is true are the leaders concerned with members leaving or are more concerned about the loss of contributions from these long time members that are allegedly leaving? It is good if things are truly starting to be shaken. Lets pray that the leaders will seek God on this.
Jim, quoting the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006 said, “Likewise, Sovereign Grace may remove a church from member-church status through the same procedure. When a member-church chooses to no longer affiliate with Sovereign Grace, the apostolic team of Sovereign Grace will relinquish its role in a God-honoring manner, and grant that church the freedom to withdraw unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.”
Seriously? When HAVEN’T they suspected someone who disagrees with them and they can no longer control of having “heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications”. That’s like me saying I’ll do whatever you want me to unless I decide you no longer are valid. And oppps, you don’t like me? So I suspect you are no longer valid. I no longer have to do as I said I would do.
Sorry Vida, I don’t have any good answers in regard to what books I read. Or rather, I don’t read too many Christian books. I found that Plan B: Further Thoughts of Faith by Anne Lamott really blessed me. She definitely looks at the Christian faith differently than I used to, but God has used her to shake me up and see Him from another view point. (It’s been really good, though scandalous to some, probably. Some books can shake your religious view points- thank heavens as my religious view point gets really stuck in its way from time to time and can leave little room for either God or love.) I also sort of liked Donald Miller’s Blue Like Jazz though I haven’t really like his dragon book all that much.
I’ll tell you one book that has cause me to understand God in a better way (and setting me free from some legalism and fear at the same time) but it’s not a Christian book at all. But I’ve bought it for many people as I’ve seen it set people free to live lives more in line with what God made them to do. It’s called Finding Your Own Northstar by Martha Beck. Like I said, not a Christian book but God has used it as a tool in my life for the past 8 years. I just started its sequel, Stargazer (or something akin to that title) and so far it’s proven to be somewhat interesting.
Btw, Azariah, for the most part I’m with you. I normally hate reading books that people write about God. Our minds are small. His is big. There is no way in heck we can begin to think we understand Him. We people are stupid. Overall, I got enough stupid of my own to go adding someone else’s stupid ideas about God to the pile. I’d rather stick to the bible for most of my finding out about God reading. Though Paul, I hear what you’re saying about reading here is similar to reading other people’s thoughts on God. I hadn’t thought about it that way before, but I think you’re right. I guess I like it here because it’s not a big long book written by us stupid people, claiming that we know the mind of God. But small little snipets of stupid instead*.
*You see, it’s not only CJ I tease about.
From the Membership Agreement For Sovereign Grace Churches, dated Sept 2006:
Blah Blah Blah, and we promise to be really good and magnanimous ……….. unless the leadership of the member-church is suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
Now there’s the rub, isn’t it?
I mean, like Stunned said, just when has ANYBODY who has disagreed with ANYTHING in SGM not been accused of, or suspected of heresy, immorality, financial impropriety or substantial and unrepentant breaches of the leadership qualifications appearing in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9.
All it takes is suspicion, and in the end, SGM gets it all.
Unless…. Rise up O Men of God!
I’ll bet tomorrow’s coffee that if the congregation would rise up, they don’t have a “plan” for dealing with that kind of …..”Reformation”.
I’m just guessing.
Partnership??
Also from the 2006 Membership Agreement
Introductory Paragraph:
This section defines the commitments between member-churches and Sovereign Grace towards the purpose of accomplishing the shared mission (or partnership) of starting, establishing, and strengthening local churches with the gospel, for God’s glory.1
And the footnote referenced:
1Please note that Sovereign Grace has no members that exercise the rights and powers of members of a corporation under the laws of the State of Maryland. However, Sovereign Grace as a family of churches has member churches determined by the ecclesiastical qualifications described in this Agreement and governed by the Holy Bible, but such membership conveys no standing, responsibility or authority for governance of Sovereign Grace as a corporation.
The full text can be found at:
http://www.counselingsolutionr.....eement.pdf
(Not sure why it is on that particular site – it just turned up in a google search.)
Jim’s comment: I have zero hope for reform. SGM is digging in their heels. They are pastors, and you are not.
SGM has no choice but to dig in their heels. When we heard that a new polity statement was coming out, I was so hopeful that they’d seen the light and were actually gonna adopt a Presbyterian government. I was sorely disappointed.
But in thinking about it, it’s pretty clear that they cannot change and survive financially. Too much livelihood is at stake. For one thing, in a presbyterian model, there is no Ceejay. To reliquish control to elected elders and deacons would hamstring not only the Little A’s, but also the local pastors. What would happen if a local board of elected elders (we Presbies call it “The Session”) to vote out a pastor? Said pastor would be out to lunch. He doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of finding a non-SGM church that would accept his SGM Pastors’ College credentials. Further, what would happen if said session decided that they’d prefer to have a pastor with an actual seminary education? They might actually call someone who’d not gone to the PC. And we just can’t have that, because the PC cannot be seen as anything less than a non-negotiable essential for a pastor, and it must be considered superior to a seminary.
But really — when it comes to the PC — to quote ol’ Clara from those great Wendy’s commercials — where’s the beef? Sure, there’s a big, fluffy bun. In the grand scheme of things, the PC is lite beer. Fewer calories — less filling. And yes, I do believe that good things are taught there — that it’s a pretty decent crash course — that the guys who go are as gung-ho as they come. But another thing that keeps SGM from being anywhere near “Sorta Presbyterian” is that Presbyterians require their pastors to be well-educated. I can’t imagine a PCA, EPC, ARP or OPC pastor asserting that his church is structured sorta like SGM. He’d be too well-educated to make such a gaffe.
The bylaws might state that any SGM Church can leave any time “without cause” but does anyone know of cases of any SGM Churches leaving SGM besides the Cleveland Church (when the group was called PDI)? If none have left then one would think that the reality is like the told song that says “you can check out anytime you want but you can never leave.”
If none have left then I would suspect it is really hard if not impossible for a group to leave the “association.”
Those are good points that people have brought up about SGM Leadership being able to use the one clause to keep the group in the fold. SGM Leaders can invoke the “heresy” clause as a way to prevent a church from leading.
One other question is that if these churches are only part of an “association” why was there a push to rename all of these churches to “Sovereign Grace” from their original name.
While studying the Book of Galatians, I was led to the following quotation from Martin Luther. Although it was written in 1535, it underscores the reality that evil still attacks in many different ways. Sometimes directly, sometimes through the deception of good people and by other means.
Regardless of what Fellowship we are a part of, it is vital that we continually pray for both protection and discernment . . . and most of all love.
From Martin Luther’s Commentary on Galatians (1535):
When the devil sees that he cannot hurt the cause of the Gospel by destructive methods, he does it under the guise of correcting and advancing the cause of the Gospel. He would like best of all to persecute us with fire and sword, but this method has availed him little because through the blood of martyrs the church has been watered. Unable to prevail by force, he engages wicked and ungodly teachers who at first make common cause with us, then claim that they are particularly called to teach the hidden mysteries of the Scriptures to superimpose upon the first principles of Christian doctrine that we teach. This sort of thing brings the Gospel into trouble. May we all cling to the Word of Christ against the wiles of the devil, “for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
—Luther’s Commentary on Galatians
Where error and sin exists in the leadership of S G M, whether in the individual church or in S G M Incorporated, may it be clearly revealed to all involved and the conviction of the Holy Spirit lead to true repentance and amends.
Hi Vida, Please do not be upset with those who said to read the Bible, instead. I was involved in Christian marketing for years and years and I always read the hottest new author…there is always a hot new Christian author.
But I repented of that world and left it. See, Western Christianity is a business enterprise. Even SGM is a business enterprise. That will offend many but I can assure you it is true.
I would recommend reading the bible but also praying that God will remove all filters you might have accumilated reading all those books and listening to all those sermons! Paul commended the Bereans because they checked everything he said. We should be doing that, too. But we cannot recognize the counterfiet unless we know the real thing.
I recommend studying the Word with a good interlinear. Not what others say about it but what the Holy Spirit teaches you. Jesus said we have the BEST TEACHER. Church was never meant for us to go and hear one guy speak week after week. That is simple tradition.
Besides, it does not bode well for folks growing in spiritual maturity. How could they grow past the guy telling them what to believe and think?
Can you imagine how much error and bad behavior would not stand if we followed Paul’s counsel in 1 Corinthians? Enjoy your new relationship with the Word. It is very profitable.
Ya know, I love to read Luther & Sproul.
It can never replace my time in the Word. When I’m in the Word, I fellowship directly with God, and even hear from The Holy Spirit directly.
Scripture tells us to be warned, and that there is nothing new under the sun.
Luther reminds us that there is nothing new under the sun.
Sproul tells us why there is nothing new under the sun.
The list can be endless.
But the list is always trumped by Scripture.
http://vancetribe.blogspot.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200...../?author=2
I hate to burst your bubble about Sproul but he does not really practice what he preaches. This is why following men is so dangerous. I followed the Ligoneir scandal and was appalled at Ligoneirs behavior.
You can also find references to Ligoneirs lawsuit against the blogger in the Orlando Sentinel and USA Today from that time period.
Marta’s correct…
http://hushmoney.org/RC_Sproul.....g-docs.htm
His son was defrocked by the presbyterians and within a few weeks, Jr was a paid speaker at a Ligoneir conference. One reason for defrocking was his misuse of tax exempt numbers. Another was abuse of the flock.
Hi Canary,
I love Frank Viola! Have you read “Pagan Christianity” and “Rethinking the Wineskin”? Outstanding books!
I have them both. Love them!
Hey Marta, overall I agree with everything you’re saying. But I just wanted to say on behalf of our dear sister, Vida, that I don’t think she was upset with anyone for saying they read only the bible. I think if you reread the comments you’ll see she wasn’t upset with anyone on that account. Btw, Marta, good to see you contributing here. And glad to see you teaching us about what happened in the world of Sproul. I’ve never been a fan for some of the reasons you mentioned.
Stunned
Marta, I wasn’t offended by Azaziah or anyone who is encouraging reading the Bible. I am also aware of the Sproul issues and so many others related to it. Reading – either books or on-line – has helped me sort through a bunch of things rather than just taking one person’s word on an issue. I try to take everything with a grain of salt.
BTW, did you ever live in Orlando? I once had a friend named Marta at UCF and lost track of her along the way.
Marta,
I haven’t read the links you posted yet, (just popping in for a moment between tasks.)
I have not heard of anything of these events.
Truth is, I haven’t followed Ligonier stuff in years (with the exception of listening to Sproul’s radio show from time to time and in the last few weeks.)
I do however, have several of Sproul’s books on various points on Reformed doctrines from years past.
By the way, Sproul is not my savior. I do however enjoy hearing his philosophical descriptions of biblical texts, and doctrinal explanations.
(AND, I do not necessarily agree with EVERYTHING he says.)
I gotta read up on this……
Thanks.
Defender
Vida, Sorry for the misunderstanding!
I will say that even though I have foregone reading works by Christian authors (I got burned out with all the Christian “branding” of people. If you are around it, you would understand) I decided a few years back to educate myself on the History of the church since the first century. What a bloody mess!
But I learned a lot and can say that Viola’s Pagan Christianity hits the nail on the head. I consider that more of a history book, in any case. But one learns that most of what we see practiced has nothing to do with Christianity. But tradition. And some of the people we admire…my goodness! Like Knox or Calvin! I read the transcript and timeline of the Servetus trial and let me say, I am not impressed with Calvin. But Christian history is a long series of men wanting power and authority over others. It is nothing new.
All of this bloody mess of Christian history only leads me back to Acts 20 and what Paul said would happen. With tears in his eyes as he prepared to leave them. He knew it was coming. And we know it did with the warnings to the churches in Revelation.
I certainly am not looking for a perfect “Church”. But a “pure” Body of Christ. Because Christ will present a “pure” Bride to Himself.
Blessings!
This guy has some good thoughts/concerns on the Ligonier lawsuit:
http://www.christopherbarnette.....r-lawsuit/
And don’t think this comment of his escaped me, because it may as well have been in flashing neon:
“Blame and name-calling aside I have a much greater concern about this lawsuit. My principal concern is that this may set a precedent, which enables corporations to silence vocal critics operating in the blogoshpere. The issue of bloggers’ rights has been gaining notoriety over the last year, as has the question of whether bloggers qualify as members of the press and therefore enjoy the same freedoms. Considering the recent high-profile cases, First Amendment lawyers have been posturing for another round in the fight for a legal precedent in this matter. Although I’m not damning Ligonier for their action, I don’t think that they have considered the negative repercussions it could produce. Already, there is increasing vitriol against Ligonier, which is drudging up past controversies (in prominent watch blogs other than Mr. Vance & associates) and fueling aggressive critics who have strong opinions but few facts (concerning the Soli Deo Gloria aquisition). Although they may well be right in this matter, if Ligonier wins, it could set up an environment where corporations and non-profits are able to silence critics and punish dissent. No matter the outcome of this case, there may only be losers. It breaks my heart to know that a disagreement between Christians might be the catalyst for negative social change. I will keep an eye on this one.”
–pk
Alarming, PK——- “They” used to shoot the watchmen on the walls with arrows.
In the 21st century, “they” seek to silence the avenues of media — radio,television
and internet. We must know the Voice of Holy Spirit and be filled with Gods Word–and be out of the snare of firstly submitting to any church hierarchy.
The Gospel in Real Life Book and DVD study Tim Keller
Wow!
This explains a few things I observed, but dismissed, over the years.
Kinda makes you go “Hmmmmm…..”, how about that?
jr. was a part of (daddy) Sproul’s radio show from time to time in a Q & A capacity in the early-mid 90′s, and then I heard jr. went to be a pastor somewhere. Then as I recall, there was a mention of trouble with jr, but nothing more. By that time I was not following the ministry or listening to the radio show, so I dismissed it.
Yup. “Hmmmmm…..” sums it up.
What people are reporting that happened with Sproul is similar to the nepotism and along with that sometimes double standards we see in SGM. You will see one pastor related to Mahaney who doesn’t have to step down due his child’s actions while other pastors (that aren’t related) in similar situations don’t have to step down.
Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of men should be leading and not just one person.
Steve says: Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of (unrelated) men should be leading and not just one person.
Just a slight clarification.
Yup!
The military has it understood.
Siblings or relatives are not allowed in the same chain of command, if at all possible, so that there will be no “conflict of interest.”
Defense contractors do not allow spouses, or relatives in the same departments. I know of situations where a person married another co-worker, and then one of them had to quit or transfer to another department.
Did the Church forget something about “indwelling sin”?
It wasn’t just the lawsuit at Ligoneir that upset so many. It was the fact they lied to their donors that they did not file a lawsuit at all. They thought they could keep it under wraps. They did not know the blogger and could not find him. The filing of the lawsuit was to try and shut down his site….but they had to find him first. When it did come out with documents proving they filed, they said it was simply an ‘injunction” which is not really a lawsuit. (rolls eyes)
During this time, donations fell considerably and the callers from Ligoneir came almost 3x a week for donations and selling stuff. The callers were telling folks there was no lawsuit trying to get their donations going again. The president of Ligoneir during this time was Tim Dick, Sproul’s son in law who also lived in their mansion home. He was surly, arrogant and mean. Eventually he was let go. But, to add insult to injury, Dick’s son posted a bunch of facebook stuff about inheriting the family business, His Lexus and shots of him guzzling bit steins of beer and talk of all his routy parties. He was about 20 and worked at Ligoneir, too. Not great PR.
Links to charity navigator showed Sprouls high salary from Ligoneir and his wife’s salary as a board member. This did not include his pastorate, his book royalties or speaking fees.
It seems the unseemly side of the Sproul’s was becoming public knowledge and they came off as typical Christian celebrities milking it for all it’s worth. Also, during this time some tried to get RC Sproul disciplined by the Presbytery. But guess what? His church is indepedent. He just called himself one. So, no discipline.
Ligon Duncan’s, brother who was part of the whole lawsuit, was made President of Ligoneir.
Marta,
SGM defenders love to reference CJ’s relationship with the Reformed Big Dogs, as if this is some type of validation.
The Sproul deal hit the national press, and if I’m not mistaken, the only public figure to criticize Sproul for taking a believer to court was John MacArthur.
Wow – leave town for a few days and it takes quite a while to catch up.
Too many teachers of the word today teach what someone else has learned rather than what the Holy Spirit is teaching them. Reading books are fine but learning the word under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit is irreplaceable. The Bible is not a self-help book but very simply is a book that teaches us who the Lord (God) is, who we are and how we are to live with God and one another.
That we have a church that is Biblically illiterate is an understatement yet we have more books, DVDs, CDs, Videos, etc. etc. that at any time in history. Jan Huss and other great men of God lost their lives trying to get the word of God translated into the common language of the people and into the hands of all the people. That should tell us how important it is for all people to study the Bible.
Years ago a close friend was in Northern Iraq speaking with a significant Imam. After my friend introduced himself as an evangelical Christian, my friend asked the Imam who he thought was going to win; Christians or Muslims. The Imam after stroking his beard several times said this “the people that get back to the ‘book’ first!” (even the Koran acknowledges the Gospels and the Torah are the word of God)
The Bible is the most important book in the world and especially to Christians. If we trust the teachers and pastors to teach us what we need to know we will not get where we need to go. The study of the Bible is not so we can just increase in knowledge of the word but the knowledge of Him, the author and perfecter of our faith.
The Holy Spirit is our teacher and He will teach us all things and remind us of the words of Jesus. I would much rather hear from the Holy Spirit rather than any man. For those who might react to my statement: I understand we can hear from God from men, nature, circumstances, etc. and that God gives teachers to the body. Teachers are good and a gift of which I have been teaching for 35 years and I am grateful for the teachers who have taught me.
But when it comes to learning God’s word, I would much rather hear it directly from Him and let what men teach confirm what He is teaching me.
For personal study I primarily use and recommend to my students two websites http://www.biblegateway.com and http://www.tgm.org/bible.htm. I strongly encourage all Christian (and non-Christians) to study the Bible.
Irv, what an encouraging post! Well put! Back to the Book indeed! I use http://www.biblegateway.com all the time. I can’t imagine life without it. Not to mention that many Bibles all around our house, a few each of NIV, ESV, NASB, and some other versions, too. Thanks be to God for his Word! I often remind my kids how people in other countries either don’t have God’s word in their heart language, or the Bible is forbidden or severely restricted, or they just don’t have enough copies to go around. One thing we have done as a mission project for many years is send money directly to a pastor in Malawi for buying Chichewa language Bibles and hymnals. We also produce his Chichewa language gospel tracts; Metro Life has been so kind as to print the last few batches for us.
When I taught a home school co-op middle school English class last year, we did studies from Genesis (life of Joseph), Daniel, Esther, Proverbs, Psalms, and Philippians right along with the other literature. For the one on Philippians, I taught them a few different Bible study methods.
One of the things that really blessed me a week or so ago at Metro Life was a group of young people (from preteen to about age 30) who had been memorizing Scripture got up and did a dramatic reading of the entire book of Philippians from memory, each reciting large chunks of it in turn. Each one of them had already memorized the entire book, along with some other Bible books. One of the girls was one of my former students. I was so proud of her. The presentation really challenged me in my own love for hiding God’s Word in my heart.
Blessings,
Vida Shavta
Preach it Irv!
Nothing trumps the Word of God!
It’s good to have you back.
Hey! When are you coming up north here for some wine.
(I put my winter clothes away. You got about 32 days before I get ‘em back out again.)
Bring PK & PD with you…..
Ya hear that PK??
I’m bottling Sangria tomorrow. Sangria is good at the end of these hot Colorado days, with some chunks of frozen peaches in the glass. (When the temps get waaaaay up in the 90′s.)
How’s that for a tease?
Well, lets see…. I read the Oprah magazine. It is really great for confidence for women, learning how to think for my self and beauty secrets….there was a great article about snacking in the recent issue.
What I don’t read is Anything by a Sovereign Grace Pastor, or anything He/She may suggest. I stay away from anything “cross centered” or books about digging. I do not further Sovereign Grace Pastors books, fiction or non fiction. I find these books to be condemning and boring.
I do read the “blogs”
I enjoy these freedoms. This comes at a price.
Hello Vida (& all),
I think we all agree God’s Word is A-Number-1. But since you asked about extra-curricular reading, I will chime in with my personal recent favorite: Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ by John Piper. A small book, but packed. A study on the attributes of Christ.
And here’s one of my favorite quotes from this little book:
“The deepest longing of the human heart and the deepest meaning of heaven and earth are summed up in this: the glory of God. The universe was made to show it, and we were made to see it and savor it. Nothing less will do. Which is why the world is as disordered and dysfunctional as it is. We have exchanged the glory of God for other things (Rom. 1:23).
We are all starved for the glory of God, not self. No one goes to the Grand Canyon to increase self-esteem. Why do we go? Because there is greater healing for the soul in beholding splendor than there is in beholding self.”
P.D.
Vida Shavta – great post and great work – The word of God will bear fruit in the lives of those who read and ponder!!!!
Defender - Thanks for the encouragement — you had me at “bottling Sangria”!!! As soon as I get a couple of deals closed we will be on our way to your part of the country and hopefully PK and PD will be able to join us. I have some business in Denver that I need to take care of as well — “funding the advancing of the kingdom” – I look forward to sharing with you all some of the most incredible things the Lord in putting into place his church change nations.
I am really looking forward to meeting you all and introducing you to some very dear friends in the your area as well. As the enemy seeks to kill, steal and destroy, God is raising up a standard through His church that is impregnable by His enemies – to God be the glory!!!
May God continue to bless and keep us all!!!
Oh my goodness Irv, I love to see God’s Kingdom going forth. And I love to meet His soldiers in “the fight”.
Yes, do stay in touch as the time draws near, and we will work out a rendezvous to meet.
(I’ll bring the Vino.)
Irv said, I strongly encourage all Christian (and non-Christians) to study the Bible.
Thank you, Irv. And YES! Non-Christians should study the Bible, too — anyone who wants to be well-educated needs to have Bible knowledge.
Some Christian teacher friends of mine were able to teach a public high school class entitled “The Bible as Literature” — because without Bible knowledge, those who read standard classical literature will be absolutely lost. The classics are filled with biblical references, and cannot be understood without knowing why those references are there.
Another Christian public school teacher read “The Best Christmas Pageant Ever” to her third graders every year – and many of them didn’t know who Mary and Joseph were. But now they do!
And we know that the Word of God will not return void…
By the way — I’m lunching next week with a friend who recently left SGM. Prayers appreciated.
Prayers sent up, Square Peg!
I pray especially that you can come together in your common bond as co-heirs with Christ Jesus – the lover of our souls!
Will be praying, Peg!
Praying, and hopeful!
PD,
The quote you wrote out from Pipers book is so moving—speaks to the depths.
I am going to pull this book from the shelf and read. I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm, I
just could not. Currently reading the book of John – and look forward to the accompaniment of “Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ”. Clinging to Him above all else
brings living water……….
I wonder – with all of this insight now available through media/information dissemination i.e. the incredible institutional church model abuses (SGM, RC, etc.) … whether a discussion about the scriptural validity and support for/against the “IT” (institutional church) as it has become in western Protestantism would be helpful.
I would love to have some of the really smart folks i.e. PK help me regain my confidence in the scriptural support of the ἐκκλησίᾳ (ekklēsia) as we see it today?
Do you believe that some/most of these “moral failures” and abuses could be the outworking of “sinful men” assuming positions of authority (along with the expectations that go along) A.K.A. Pride, that God never intended them to walk in?
It seems we have this false expectation of this “senior pastor”. We expect him to be a visionary, administratively gifted, preaching, teacher.
What happened to:
“For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body …….. But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.” (1 Cor 12:14-20)
This thought was rekindled by a recent discussion with a friend about his SGM church that took in over $1.4M in T.O. last year and the breakdown of those $$. ?? i.e. salaries, building note payment, other admin. vs. “widows and orphans etc.”
Has it all become too much about the power, control, money?
Is “IT” a machine that has gotten out of control?
Waters said, “I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm, I just could not. Currently reading the book of John…”
Thank heavens SGM didn’t tout reading the bible all that much or it would hard for each of us to read, too.
Both the high salaries and questionable actions of individuals in R.C. Sproul’s group may explain why that RBD is reluctant to get involved in the problems that are being shown with Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Jim said:
“The Sproul deal hit the national press, and if I’m not mistaken, the only public figure to criticize Sproul for taking a believer to court was John MacArthur.”
I wonder if this silence is because other RBDs also live in “glass houses.” This would make them that more reluctant to speak out when similar things may be happening in their own organization.
apelogeito,
I’m with you in your wondering….
I’m concerned that Americans have “incorporated” the Church, making it more about control than worshiping the One who is Worthy.
In the aftermath, the Bride is abused. I’m thinking the Bridegroom will be ready for a fight.
These men who see the church as a way of making profit, are going to find a jealous Bridegroom.
Defended says:
“Steve says: Sadly, it is easy for someone to want to overlook and not believe things about a relative more easily than someone else. This is another reason that a group of (unrelated) men should be leading and not just one person.
Just a slight clarification. ”
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe that helps explain what happened with the pastor’s son a few years ago in MLC. It was hard for the Sr. Pastor to suspect or want to admit the problems with his son. People might have even been in the know but were reluctant to point out problems with the “boss’s son.”
Hey Irv,
We met the Defenders a few weekends ago and they are wonderful people. ( Defenders, don’t forget us when you get together to meet Mr. and Mrs. Irv! Mr. Canary will be in touch about this weekend – I think he wants to go along on the Elk hunting ground search with some of the kids!). It would be so cool if we could meet folks you know in this area. And if the Defenders’ sangria is as good as their wine, I want some!
Canary dear,
I have you & your nest in mind when Refuge Party #2 is planned.
So, Mr. Canary is interested in this weekend’s little “trip”? COOL!
Have him email me & we’ll talk about it.
Ya know, I have been thinking about how the hunting is up in your neck of the woods.
I’m told by some that it’s pretty good up in the Natl. Forest there.
Is that bear still hanging around your house? I can ……. get rid of him for you ….. ya know…?
Canary,Irv and Defended-Makes me wish we lived in Colorado.
Waters, I, too cannot pick up a book touted by sgm.
My thoughts EXACTLY about the IT!
Pam, wish you were here, too!
Irv, we see bears every now and then. I love them so you can’t shoot any or I’ll boo-hoo. I don’t know how the hunting is in the Nat. Forest but we live right next to it. You should check it out. Forget camping – stay at our place and have running water!!! Then just walk up our hill into the forest and shoot some elk, which we have plenty of I think. My kids have all expressed their interest in elk hunting…
Oops! Name change again! It is Vida Savta (no “h”) ater all.
Waters
July 13th, 2010 at 9:28 am
PD,
The quote you wrote out from Pipers book is so moving—speaks to the depths.
I am going to pull this book from the shelf and read. I tried reading this very book about 3 weeks ago—but still, experiencing an aversion to authors that are highly touted by sgm
_________________________________________________________
Waters, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water (I just made that up and you can use it anytime, but please let people know where you heard it first)
It can be so easy for us to say “everything about SGM was terrible”, but when if you look at many of the lifetime friends you have, and also excellent worship and teaching that, apart from the naval gazing, brought you closer to God, you have to be thankful for the good that God used in your lives in the time you spent with your SGM church. I have a brother that can only remember a harsh father and refuses to remember the fun times we had with Dad. Sad, now that Dad has died, my brother has nothing to draw from when he thinks of Dad because he remains bitter. We must strive to avoid becoming bitter or we will not move on in our walk.
Ephesians 4 [31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice,
[32] and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Vida:
Savta…Shavta…This is too confusing – we all know you are just Jim anyway, just like the rest of us.
Hey WalkingWounded — at least I know my identity in Christ! Saint! (Or is that SHAINT?) And DEARLY BELOVED. (That’s the VIDA part.) Ah, now that’s the real GOSPEL truth for you! And no, I’m not Jim. Too much estrogen for that, I’m afraid. Unless one of his alter egos is a chick?
Apelogeito –
You ask some very good questions and I am sure that many will have different perspectives based on their gifts and experiences. I thought I would share a couple of thoughts from the cheap seats that might at least provoke additional conversation and insight.
The institutional church seems to have always had its issues. The reformation of the 1500s was certainly a reaction to what was going on in the church at that time. The church didn’t get there overnight (like about 1200 years) and the reformation a God send to return God’s people (Ekklesia) to the mission and mandate of His kingdom.
A quick look at the time of the reformation:
The church (Ekklesia) had become Biblically illiterate. Leaders usurped the place and authority of Christ and put the people under a religious liturgy and activity and called it church. Ideologies of the world were accepted into the church and called them Christian but certainly not Biblical. Leaders were self-serving even to the point of having brothels in the Vatican and active prostitutes in the church for the leaders. There was great separation of clergy and laity (laity had no say in the governing or decision making pertaining to the church) and what they learned was what was told them. The image of Jesus was hanging on the cross not the ascension to the throne.
During the time of the reformation the Bible was being written in the language of the common people (6 men and 1 woman were killed for it). Salvation and righteousness was by faith and grace through Christ alone not the priests or church. As people read their Bible they became free and exercised their liberty experiencing the joy of the Lord. The place or positions of the clergy were brought down to line up more with scripture rather than church tradition. Pastors and teachers became ministers of the word, and evangelists for the cause of Christ.
The outcome of the reformation (in my humble opinion) was the renewal of the mission and mandate of Christ and the gospel of His kingdom. Unfortunately, reformation didn’t continue and the great revivals became once again the institutionalized church, whereby the church became the focus not His kingdom. Jesus said seek first the kingdom of God not His church.
We have been taught to seek first the church. The problem is this – the church is us (Ekklesia). What you seek you become – the institutionalized church has become all about us not His kingdom and His purpose. Salvation is all about me (and Jesus) and not about the door to the life and mission of His kingdom. We have become a religious people bound by our traditions not a people who are set free and empowered preach the gospel of the kingdom to all nations.
The institutionalized church has been more affected by our culture (ideologies and methodologies) than we have affected our culture. Pastors are professionals and hirelings not servants and shepherds. The institutionalized church has lost its mission and unfortunately the church doesn’t know it (I place the onus on the leadership in the church). It isn’t about getting people saved but entering and participating in the fullness of Christ and His kingdom. We are trying to perfect ourselves rather than understanding the righteousness of Christ in us.
We have lost our saltiness and become another religion not a force of righteousness to be reckoned with. Even by our confession we are ‘sinners saved by grace’ (which I get). But more truthful; we are the saints of Christ, His body, His presence, His glory in the earth, His righteousness. We are a chosen race, a holy nation (a people set apart for His purpose and use), a royal priesthood (all believers) and a people possessed by God to proclaim to the world God our creator, our Savior and our Redeemer.
I believe it is time for the Ekklesia to get back to the simplicity of Christ in us and being His presence and glory in the world. Jesus said He would build His church but unfortunately men have decided that is their job not His. Jesus instructed us to go and make disciples of the world (all nations) teaching them how to live with God and with one another.
Perhaps it is appropriate for another reformation; a reformation that will usher the return of our Lord. Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 that when the gospel of His kingdom is preached in all the world, then the end shall come.
Defender et al — can’t wait to join you all for some fun and fellowship. Sidney and fam have also relocated to the Denver area and who knows who else might be reading the blogs and would like to join us.
Paul, Thankyou for the original phrase (!!!!????!!): “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.” !! Point well taken. It’s been a process………and yes, there is ever so much I (and we) are thankful for from 19 years in pdi/sgm——especially the many friends who so love the Lord and we walked together….worship times when God met us..ministry times at the altar………watching children grow up and marry……….. I do not dismiss these markers in our lives—-they are precious———-and I am without words to express thankfulness that Holy Spirit would open our eyes and ears to what was occuring “behind closed doors” as pastoral ‘counsel’ and leadership manifested in forms of unGodly oppressions upon my Brethren whom I love so much. Sometimes my words, I know, are very direct— I hold no bitterness, but deep sadness—There are times when it becomes necessary to sound the alarm. We have witnessed and confronted lies and abuse and illusions and strategized ‘misrepresentations’ in 2 large sgm churches at the hands of ‘shepherds’. There is a sense of responsibility for the Brethren whenever we see this occuring — to remain silent at the cost of one more Believer ensnared by deceit isnot an option. Probably this is why many of us are “vermin bloggers” (as one sgm-er labeled us!).
In thinking of my Brethren, my children, and grandchildren, this verse rings true:
“I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in The Truth.” 3John 1:4
Defended,
Please post email address. I will write you with my real name. May know each other. Thanks!!
Hey Cook, I love to sing!
email me at defended1@gmail.com
wait! Sid’s back in CO? Sidney! Email me!
Irv said,
The institutionalized church has been more affected by our culture (ideologies and methodologies) than we have affected our culture. Pastors are professionals and hirelings not servants and shepherds. The institutionalized church has lost its mission and unfortunately the church doesn’t know it (I place the onus on the leadership in the church).
\\\\ Awesome post\\\\\ I might quote that in about a week!!!!!!!!!! When i go to my churches evangelism board meeting. I believe your 100% right on with what you said about getting back to basics. It seems like there is a desire to dress up the gospel. I wonder if our Master cries over what we have done………..
Jim,
I’m disappointed in the title of this post. For a guy that prides himself on his musical acumen, I would have thought you would have put the hyphens in the right places. Should have been We-are-fa-ma-lee…
Josh
Josh,
I’m disappointed that anyone would know where to place the hyphens in that song.
Jim
Oh yeah?
Well I’m disappointed that every time I open this freaking website, that song is stuck in my head for the rest of the day.
RT – I feel your pain
“We are family.. I got all my sisters with me”
As bad as having your clock radio wake you up with a lame song that you sing all day.
Yeah, well I liked the very first post where it was spelled “fam-ILL-lee”.
Defended,
You’ve got mail…
Sid
oooh, I love mail!
Well….if you really want a song in your head to stick around, then start singing
“Cel-e-brate good times… COME ON!
, (Deep Voice) It’s a celebration…..”
Lol…
Musicman, I also thought of “Celebration” by Kool and The Gang when I saw Jim’s title for the post.
I still remember the lyrics to both. (And pretty much everything else playing during that era.) ;-)
Oh my goodness!
Now I have two songs playing in my head.
(It’s OK though. It drowns out the voices.)
Much different than the 60′s. If you remembered them, then you weren’t there.
Disco was a lost time. Sort of the RAP of the day. In the future, people will look back and say “we listened to that crap?”
I tried posting this yesterday but it is still in moderation. Better luck this time!
~~~
One of my high school classmates from 30 years ago just found me via Refuge! Sweet!
Anyway, I thought you all might like to see a poem that I wrote the other day – it’s on my main blog at “It Became to Me a Dark Thing”. I’m sure some of you might be able to relate to it, and I hope it will be a blessing to you.
Grace and glee…
Vida (Savta)
Wow, Vida…you’re quite the poet!
Paul…the 70′s was by far the best music decade ever. I was going through some “old stuff” just the other day and found one of my old 8 track tapes – “Eagles – One of These Nights.”
Defender,
I hate to do this (not!) but what about “It’s a Small World After All”? Take the little kids on that ride at Disney World and you nearly loose your sanity – the song sticks in the mind like super glue. I think that, instead of water boarding, terrorists should be put on that ride over and over and over- they’d spill their guts before the third ride is finished!
KS, did you have anything to play it with? If so, two points for not throwing anything out.
I haven’t went through all the boxes yet.
I’ll let you know, Stunned.
A Kindred Spirit “Paul…the 70’s was by far the best music decade ever.”
I wasn’t referring to The Eagles, Beatles, Stones,Aerosmith,Alan Parsons,Allman Brothers,B.T.O.,Billy Joel,Bob Seger, Boston, The Boss,Chicago, CCR, CSN&Y, David Bowie, Deep Purple, Doobie Brothers, Eric Clapton, Fleetwood Mac,Foreigner, Genesis,Grand Funk Railroad, Guess Who, Heart, James Gang, Jethro Tull, Joe Wlash, Journey, Kansas,Led Zeppelin, Lynyrd Skynyrd,Molly Hatchet, Moody Blues, Mott The Hoople, The Outlaws, REO, Rod Stewart, Santana, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Styx, Supertramp,3 Dog Night, Toto, Van Morrison, Steve Winwood, The WHO, ZZ Top etc, I was talking about that vast wasteland called DISCO.
Paul,
You left out Uncle Ted and the best band of the 70′s and the 80′s…Van Halen.
Of course, someone who listed Supertramp and 3 dog night would.
Your extra points for Zep & Aerosmith helped.
Jim, how’d I miss Ted Nugent and the Amboy Dukes and Van Halen? I also missed Yes, Blackmore’s Rainbow, Pink Floyd,Alice Cooper,Bad Company, KISS,Peter Frampton,Steppenwolf, Rush, King Crimson,ELP, Edgar Winter Group, Todd Rundgren’s Utopia and who could ever forget Klaatu?. I was rushing to leave for work at 6PM – the mind is getting old. You will notice I omitted Donny- Marie and Babs, as well as Manilow on your list of favorites.
Abba.
Ellie
July 18th, 2010 at 11:02 am
Abba.
Yes Ellie, sorry Abba, The Partridge Family and Bobby Sherman – I forgot.
Well, the music banter has been fun, but I would like to jump back to the topic – Metro Life’s July 7th Fam a lee meeting.
When Danny stood up to repent for doing the whole “Mike is gonna have to step down thing”, he failed to mention a very important item. Why was Benny silent in the wings during all of this? Do you think Mike’s stepping down “for a season” was Danny’s decision alone? What, suddenly Benny is out of the leadership meetings when decisions like this occur? Why didn’t Benny pipe in with his apology for doing the Sunday morning thing? When is Benny going to step out and say “hey, I too was a part of this terrible decision, and it’s timing, it’s not Danny’s decision alone?” Sitting quietly in the background while Danny takes all the hits, makes me wonder (and nervous, when I think of the reason he had to step down in Fairfax). This week I found out another 4 of my friends are leaving Metro. This place is getting pretty empty, and I still pray that they soon “get it” because I, along with SGM Refuge Jim, want to see Reform not total destruction.
Nauseated - You do make some very interesting points. As I read your comment, it does shed light on the ‘plurality of leaders’ actually being a plurality. Did Danny communicate from the elders or just himself? If he made the decision himself, why didn’t he run this decision by the elders? And if it was a leadership decision, then they are collectively out to lunch on this one, which doesn’t give them much credibility on their ability, discernment and aptitude to lead a church. And if it was a leadership decision how much say did Mike have to say as he was part of the leadership team? And one more thing on this and I will shut up — it seems that the shepherds (pastors, elders) had little or no concern for the sheep only their forced agenda because of the wedding. But thats me!!
I had to reach for the deodorizer after I read your post cause something was not smelling too good.
Unfortunately, sometimes the only way to get the attention of the leadership is to vote with your feet. SGM leaders usually are able to protect themselves with their ‘damage control isolation thing’ so no one asks questions or is put in line if they do ask questions. It seems this time there have been too many that have left and the leadership is forced to deal somewhat with themselves.
I am with you – we have enough destruction in the body and reform needs to come to SGM as well as much of the church in America.
N, You bring up a good question. Maybe someone will give you an answer. 4 more, huh?
Ok………….one more song lyrics to go. I heard this today and the Lord used it to remind me that we need to remain as little children. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
Supertramp – The Logical Song Lyrics
When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well they’d be singing so
happily,
joyfully, playfully watching me.
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,
logical, responsible, practical.
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,
clinical, intellectual, cynical.
There are times when all the world’s asleep,
the questions run too deep
for such a simple man.
Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
I know it sounds absurd
but please tell me who I am.
Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical,
liberal, fanatical, criminal.
Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re
acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!
At night, when all the world’s asleep,
the questions run so deep
for such a simple man.
Won’t you please, please tell me what we’ve learned
I know it sounds absurd
but please tell me who I am.
Nauseated, good to be back on topic again. There are people within MLC who are gathering to pray for a fresh move of the Holy Spirit, for the people to be filled and empowered, for a boldness to go do the things that God has called us to do without worrying what other people think, and for the pastors to have clarity of vision. So much more than I could share right here. I am thankful for these dear saints interceding for this church.
On another note, I went to see the new Robin Hood movie with my husband last night. I was especially moved by the inscription on the sword, “Rise and rise again until lambs become lions,” as well as Robin Hood’s admonition to King John that if he wanted to build a kingdom that would last, he needed to empower the people instead of grabbing for control claiming the divine right of kings.
Vida
“Irv
July 18th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Nauseated - You do make some very interesting points. As I read your comment, it does shed light on the ‘plurality of leaders’ actually being a plurality. Did Danny communicate from the elders or just himself? If he made the decision himself, why didn’t he run this decision by the elders? And if it was a leadership decision, then they are collectively out to lunch on this one, which doesn’t give them much credibility on their ability, discernment and aptitude to lead a church.”
Well kids, here is real food for thought.
Since Todd resigned from the leadership team at MLC in January of 2010, and Mike was told publicly removed from pastoral responsibilities in June, WHO was part of the “plurality of elders” left at MLC to make this rather embarrassing announcement. There are only TWO GUYS LEFT! Now that’s a lot of accountability. Danny J and Benny P. What a “plurality of leadership” at MLC left indeed.
Still no elders, other than the teaching ones. So anyway, common sense would denote that both men had to be in agreement as to the what where and when. Seeing the structure of the Sunday services are preplanned down to the music DUH DUH and DUH Benny was not siting there in shock when this all went down. I would agree with Nauseated. Where was Benny’s apology to the Nash family in all of this???????????
My intel would be the same. Three more family units have either hit or about to hit the door.
“VIDA”
When all the truth comes out and real repentance takes place, God will turn MLC around. Till then, people will continue to drop like flies. It is sad, painful, and a black mark on the Body of Christ. Not a Happy 25th Anniversaryat all for those who have felt strongly about parting ways. Unless you are a part of MLC you would have to know that the caliber of people that have left were not people there one or two years, but many 15 years plus. Again, sad …… there is a serious cost for not listening to the flock, secrecy, lack of transparency, and sin.
I was struck by this quote, posted on that great theological resource, Facebook, this morning:
”For every one look at your sin, take ten looks at the cross.” Martin Luther
It hit me so hard, because my experience with SGM was pretty much the opposite. More like “for every one look at the cross, take ten looks at your sin.” In so doing, we negate the beauty and power of the cross, and forget that “the cross” should mean death, resurrection, and ascension in the same way that “God” means Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Square Peg, I’ve actually heard that same quote by Martin Luther (his original wording, not the other) many times at Metro Life.
Vida… I also heard that quote while in my SGM church. Unfortunately, it was not walked out, it wasn’t reality. Reality was “you are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.
It’s one thing to quote someone or something that “sounds good”… quite another to embrace it and make it your mindset, your lifestyle, a part of your very foundation. And we all know what SGM’s mindset is regarding our sin… “You are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.
Hopefully this is changing in SGM, but to be honest, I’m not holding my breath while I wait to see change happen in the SGM machine.
Vida, don’t be fooled by shiny, glittery words just because it comes from leadership and sounds good, or is what you want to hear. You need to test every word that comes from their mouths. And watch for lasting results.
I’m just sayin’ is all…
Carole, I do agree with you. I was just holding my tongue. I have had several discussions with the pastors about this very issue. I do think they are trying. I am in “wait and see” mode. Did you get to read the poem I linked further up in this thread? Here is the link again: “It Became to Me a Dark Thing”.
Blessings,
Vida
Hey Paul,
(Did NOT like Partridge Family and Bobby Sherman so THERE. phmmmpft!)
Carole said:
“It’s one thing to quote someone or something that “sounds good”… quite another to embrace it and make it your mindset, your lifestyle, a part of your very foundation. And we all know what SGM’s mindset is regarding our sin… “You are a sinner… you are a sinner… you are a sinner…” ad nauseum.”
Well one thing a group should do if they really want change to happen such as with this is to acknowledge that is was wrong. Thus one would think that if SGM really wanted to change on this they would admit their past error or overemphasis. Sadly one rarely hears of SGM admitting that what they did in the past was wrong even if they do change.
If SGM admitted they were wrong and abusive wouldn’t that open them up to scores of lawsuits? Hence the dilemma on so-called accountability, right? To my thinking this is a huge sticking point in true, real polity reform. Ironically, the power structure keeps these guys paralyzed in their tenuous place of ultimate power and non-admissions, doesn’t it?
I’m honestly asking but that’s what it looks like from this cheap seat.
Looks the same to me. Oh what a tangled web…
Ellie
July 19th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Hey Paul,
(Did NOT like Partridge Family and Bobby Sherman so THERE. phmmmpft!)
Well, I did, watched Partridge Family every week along with Bobby Sherman on Here Come the Brides. Proud to say that I never bought an album.
And Jim’s knock on 3 Dog Night?
“Golden Biscuits” was the first album I ever bought – played it to death on my portable Emerson Record Player. OK – so other than “Mama Told Me Not to Come” they were a pop band, and probably should have been left off the list.
And Jim, Supertramp? Best concert I’ve ever been to at Saratoga Performing Arts Center in NY – amazing prog band that no one ever heard of until Breakfast in America.
Jim – you will notice I left AC/DC and Black Sabbath off the list too – purposely – along with Ozzie- Bon Scott’s voice made my skin crawl.
If I can make a comment about MLC in Orlando….I was there from 1996-1998. they were a mess then, like they are now. I talked to 3 of the Pastors…Mike N, Mike G., and Danny J. Much to my disappointment, they were “sorry” but made no changes. I could not stay in a church that seemed interested in admitting thier problems, some of them, but refused to make any changes. Sad, if you ask me. very sad indeed.
Suzie J’ – your post is absolutely on target.
Much to my disappointment, they were “sorry” but made no changes. I could not stay in a church that seemed interested in admitting thier problems, some of them, but refused to make any changes.
This really says it all for those who have lefted PDI/SGM. This is not just an issue of SGM but much of the American church?
Great post – Thank you Suzie!!!!
Irv~ I totally agree with you, the American Church seems to be heading down the same paths as the european churches have. I wish i could find the article i read about the european church. It was had a great title but sadly it was a heart breaking story about how the church in europe had started down a bad path hundreds of years ago and is now reaping the fruit of its misguided good intentions. PK is a avid reader maybe hes heard of it. All i know is this, if we don’t get back to the teachings of our Master we may lose the next generation………
Suzie, I agree with you. The whole thing is so very sad. So many people deceived including and especially the pastors! People are blindly following, not thinking for themselves and being led astray. So very sad….. I am also sad for all the years that I was there. However, God has promised that He will restore what the locusts have devoured!
In regard to the European Christian church, here’s a host of articles (some secular sources):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....over_x.htm
Look at the paragraph under the header “Religiosity” at this link, with statistical data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe
From a Catholic perspective, but has valuable insight: http://www.americamagazine.org.....le_id=3458
http://www.christianitytoday.c.....jul18.html
http://www.whychurch.org.uk/trends.php
America is “already there” in many respects regarding the crisis of faith and the decline of the church.
The time for men and women of God to rise up is way, way overdue.
–pk
In know it may be contrite but to me it is about having a “Seek First” heart and mentality:
His Kingdom – the highest priorityof the believer’s life is centered on Christ, His mission and mandate and priorities of the kingdom of God (the rule and reign of Christ in the earth through His church) and
His righteousness — that believers understand their righteousness in Him and the power afforded to His church because of His righteousness to accomplish the first part.
Amen, Irv. Well said.
Irv,
You are dead center of “On Track” with your “seek first” mentality.
I really really can’t wait to get together with you. (And Canary again too!)
Hey Canary,
Mr. Canary has mail! (I think I copied you too.)
Thank you Canary and Defender —
It is beginning to look better for an August trip to the other part of God’s country:). Making some closes — all I need to do is get paid and we are on our way. Really looking forward to meeting you all..
BTW – Have you visited my leadership college website?
Irv
Defender, I got your mail. Hasn’t Mr. Canary responded? He’s been so busy bringing home the birdseed that I don’t know if he is caught up on his email. I’ll check. Loved the pic you sent. Beautiful country. You are welcome to scout out near our place any time you want. You’ll probably have some of my crew going with you if you don’t mind…:)
Wow, are we really going to meet Irv and Mrs. Irv????
Where does one need to live in order to be favored with IRL visits?
DB! While CO is “God’s Country” for us now, there will always be a piece of our hearts in the VA/NC region.
Planes trains and cars come here every day so you can too!
Irv said:
In know it may be contrite but to me it is about having a “Seek First” heart and mentality:
His Kingdom – the highest priority of the believer’s life is centered on Christ, His mission and mandate and priorities of the kingdom of God (the rule and reign of Christ in the earth through His church) and
His righteousness — that believers understand their righteousness in Him and the power afforded to His church because of His righteousness to accomplish the first part.
Well said. Thank you.
My distinct understanding listening to CJ Mahaney’s sermon “The Happiest Place on Earth” is that the highest priority of a believer’s life is making his pastor’s life a joy. Toward the end of his sermon he said that when we’re all standing in front of Christ for the first time, we’ll all be assembled around our pastor and thanking Christ for our pastor.
I hate to disappoint CJ, but somehow I doubt any Christians will be thinking about him (or any other minister) when they see Christ for the first time. The Good Book says all eyes will be focused on our Lord and Savior, the one who died and rose again and who now intercedes for us so that we need no human mediator.
Having been in a “church” cult once before and having seen how it plays out in the end, I think the Metro Life fanny kissing is good old fashioned CYA. This is damage control at its finest. All they need is a cherry sitting on top of each pastor’s head to complete the image.
Irv:
I have really enjoyed your comments on this site (and Jim and others). You are exactly correct about the gospel. The good news is that God is not counting our sins against us anymore if our faith is in Jesus and His finished work on our behalf. “God was in Christ reconciling the whole world unto Himself, not counting their sins against them anymore.” And “Blessed is he whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Now in the New Covenant of grace, we have received abundant grace and the gift of righteousness and thereby reign in this life through one Christ Jesus, in union with Him, who is our life. It seems the SGM churches really do not know the gospel. Professing to be wise, have they become fools? I don’t think they even believe in a new creation from what I have read of their theology.
I had a Bible Study years ago in a home and a large group of Metro Life members heard about it and started attending (about 30 or so). It was great. They were getting set free and seeing how much God loved them and how He saw them perfect in His Son. Then Danny Jones heard about it and put an end to it. Danny divided the group of 30 or so people into two groups. One group was considered easy to persuade and they did what they knew to do to convince this group to no longer attend the Bible Study. The other group were more free and more independent and they approached them differently. I later met personally with Danny Jones to explain what I was teaching at his office and he just sat there and listened, looking at his watch, going through the motions so he could say he met with me. He had few questions. The next Sunday he spoke from the pulpit and publicly said I was teaching heresy and that he could not endorse my Bible Study. Some of that group left Metro Life and never returned and they are doing awesome. We still keep in touch. Saw one couple yesterday. Others went back under the rule of SGM. It’s sad what is happening over there. You guys are not imagining this. Have you ever heard of web sites being created to handle the fall out from a church? This the Lord’s doing and it is not gossip. May the Lord open their eyes to the true gospel of grace instead of giving “grace” lip service or may the Lord shut the operation down. Love you guys.
James
I would like to edit some of my comment before posting. I tried to edit it but I ran out of time. Thanks.
James-please email the complete, edited comment to me and I’ll drop it in.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Jim:
Thanks. I was just going to edit it to read that it “seemed to me that Danny was just going through the motions” because I cannot say what is in his heart. Trying to be fair in my post. No problem. I would love to meet you and anyone else for lunch one day.
Thanks.
P.S. I attend Grace Church in Longwood and teach there. http://www.graceorlando.com
My personal web site is http://www.seeinggrace.com
Clark Whitten, the pastor at Grace Church is great guy and faithful brother of the gospel of grace. He was the pastor at Calvary Assembly in Winter Park for over a decade before he started this new church plant. He’s writing a book now that is going to be a blessing to so many concerning the grace of God in Christ Jesus. We are a young church, about 350 members and growing. It’s a great place to get healed of religion. Religion is in the business of sin management. A multi-billion dollar business. If sin is taken away, religion goes out of business. That is exactly what Jesus did. Now Jesus lives His own life through His sons and daughters as we rest in Him and we bear much fruit for His glory.
And THAT is the GOOD NEWS.
.
THAT is the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ!
Jim:
Just so you know, I am not a Calvinist at all, nor is Clark Whitten. I believe Jesus died for the whole world just as the scripture says (no limited atonement as SGM churches teach) and that anyone can be forgiven if they will only put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. Luther had a lot of things right, but he was wrong when he wrote that the believer is just “dung covered by snow.” The snow being the righteousness of Christ. We are not like dung, just sinners saved by grace. We are new creations in Christ. We are sons and daughters of the living God by spiritual birth and are no longer from below, but from above, just as Jesus said. That is the truth that sets us free.
James said:
“We still sin from time to time as we are learning to walk in the Spirit”
God saved me 28 years ago, and I’m confident that I sinned this morning before I turned off my alarm clock. I strive to be neither licentious nor legalistic-let’s get that out of the way first.
In regards to judgment, God chooses to see the work of Jesus when He sees me. He sees me as His child, a saint, one who has no sin debt, as that debt was paid by Another.
Apart from judgment (it is finished), He sees my sin, and shows me my sin, so that I will never take His grace for granted. He also shows me my sin because sin has consequences, and He want’s what is best for me and for those I effect with my sin. He also shows me my sin for…. 100 other reasons.
More importantly, He tells me who I am, His child, accepted in The Beloved.
James, I’ve taken one sentence out of context, so I might be misrepresenting what you believe, BUT, if you think believers sin every once in a while until they learn to walk in the Spirit (perfection?) you’re dreaming.
Yes Ellie!
Jim, but didn’t Jesus say to be perfect as He is perfect? Wonder what that meant. Just asking because I don’t know the answer.
James B said:
Religion is in the business of sin management. A multi-billion dollar business. If sin is taken away, religion goes out of business. That is exactly what Jesus did. Now Jesus lives His own life through His sons and daughters as we rest in Him and we bear much fruit for His glory.
Beautifully said. I’m sure there are churches in America who aren’t in it for the money, but so sad for the churches that are. Sad for the saints too, who can never dig up enough sins to repent of -there are always more piles of it to go through. As Mr. Canary has told me often, you can’t just “put off” sin, you must also “put on” the fruits of walking with Jesus. If you focus on the putting on, you will be free to do what you are suppose to do, by the Holy Spirit. Anyway, your words are truly something to consider.
Curious so I looked it up in the Amplified Bible: Matthew 5:48
“You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus said this.
Jim:
I agree totally Jim. We will never manifest perfectly through these bodies on earth who we are inside these bodies (the new man) until we put off these bodies. I do not believe the scripture teaches that a believer reaches a state of perfection in these bodies where we cease to sin on earth. Not at all. On the contrary, we have this treasure in earth vessels that the excellency of the power is clearly seen to be of Christ and not ourselves. As James writes, “we all stumble in many ways.” No worries. I am not of that camp. Those in that camp are not only “dreaming,” they know not the scriptures. We are perfect within, in Christ, but that perfection does not manifest perfectly in this world because we “see in part” and “manifest in part.” And I don’t just mean “positionally perfect,” I mean substantively, really and actually perfect as a new creation. That’s what the scripture is clear about. Holy and blameless now in Christ. As John writes, “As Jesus is, so are we in this world.” God cut away our body of flesh (Colossians) and circumcised us by His own hand so that He could raise us from the dead and call into being that which did not exist before: a new creation. He left sin in the members of our body. The power of sin remains in our body. The mystery of iniquity is still in our members, our bodies of this creation, and it is stimulated by law still even as a believer because the law is not of faith. It is a mystery but all the apostles wrote about this truth. Now the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the body. Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, blameless, with exceeding joy, perfect, because we are perfect now in Him. But the walking it out in this life will never be a perfect manifestation of the reality we enjoy in Him. Only when this body is put off will we know all things as we are known by Him and manifest completely and perfectly who He created us to be in Him.
Matthew 5:48
“You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Jesus said this.
I’m confused. Guess I’ll go ask Mr. Canary. According to scripture, we are able to reach complete maturity in Christ. I haven’t gotten there, yet. Just wonder why Jesus said this if it isn’t possible to achieve it.
James
Sorry to hear your story but thanks for sharing it here. It is quite sad.
When you met with Danny Jones (in private as SGM says) did he bring up that he thought what you were teaching was heresy or did he just say this on that Sunday without trying to discuss this with you including getting a clarification on your teachings? Was there much discussion or him just silently listening to you?
One would think with all the teaching on going to a person in private etc. that SGM teaches including how they define “gossip” Danny Jones would have done just that or had some discussion. From what you shared above it doesn’t sound like their was much if any interaction when you met with him.
Thanks James. You scared me….
Canary, I know the pat answers, but I have to be honest and say that I really don’t know.
Let me know what the Mr says….
I’m not really sure because he never communicated to me directly about any questions he had about what I taught. I heard it second hand from those who heard the announcement from the pulpit and who then left Metro Life Church. I think it had something to do with the fact that I taught that God no longer counts our sins against us because of Jesus and that we now live every day with the gift of righteousness in Christ. I also teach that believers are new creations and that though the power of sin still resides in our flesh, that is not who we are. I teach that the old man (once joined to the flesh and in the flesh and in sin) died through the death of Christ on the cross and a new man (now joined to the risen Christ) is no longer in the flesh. We are not just sinners saved by grace, we are new creations who once were sinners and now through the grace of God have been made the sons and daughters of God having received the Spirit of the Son, who cries “Abba” from our new heart. I also teach that we no longer have a wicked heart, but true to the scripture and the promise of the prophets, we have a new heart in Christ Jesus. We still sin from time to time as we are learning to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, but when we sin, that is not who we really are. As Paul said, no good thing dwells in my flesh, but I am not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. I am free and complete and new in Him. I think their teaching about indwelling sin, the way they teach it, is completely unscriptural and breeds death instead of life. Our conscience may try to condemn us, but our conscience only responds to what we do. The Spirit of God, on the other hand, reveals to us who we are. There is a higher authority than our conscience. It is the Word of God. In this awesome New Covenant of grace and union with the living Christ, we find the great love of God filling us and His fruit is clearly evident. The true gospel does not lead to an ungodly lifestyle, as religious men fear. Rather, it leads people to look to Christ alone and no man and depend on Christ alone and no man. That may be what he really was concerned about. That is what I taught at those Bible Studies years ago and that is what I teach today.
Canary,
I believe that the Mt. 5:48 verse is a statement of the standard of God in the Law.
The Gospel is that Jesus took the full force of God’s punishment for our breaking that law.
We are now clothed in His righteousness, even though we are for a time still in these sinful bodies, the punishment for our sin has been satisfied in Christ.
Now I live, in fear and trembling, grateful for the gift of Salvation, given by God, and therefore seek Him first.
Phil. 4:8 says “…whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things.”
Wow!, and there is no room for dwelling on my sin in that!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it CJ!
Oops! Just sinned again. (Or did I?)
James Barron,
Thank you so much! I need to hear that everyday!! Not as a mantra but as truth! 21 years of garbage to wade through and I really needed to hear that today!!
______ said:
Dead men don’t sin! We need to look at our sin from God’s perspective – GONE!
I regards to judgment, I’m with you.
I’ve stated on here 1000 times that, while I believe that Paul was referring to is current life as a believer in RMS 7, we need to TURN THE PAGE, and focus on Paul’s focus. On God’s focus.
Romans 8
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In order for God to be Just, someone had to be punished for our sin.
Thank You Jesus!
Also, what Jim Said…^
From Matthew 27:
But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.
27Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. 28They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, 29and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. 30They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.
32As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 33They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). 34There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 35When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 36And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 37Above his head they placed the written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!”
… 45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi,lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
…Hmmm…perhaps the punishment was the Father’s rejection, however brief, of the Son? Mimicing our eternal separation from the Father if we refuse to receive his grace? I’d qualify this as punishment, that’s for sure.
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
Isaiah 53
James Barron said:
“Just so you know, I am not a Calvinist at all, nor is Clark Whitten. I believe Jesus died for the whole world just as the scripture says (no limited atonement as SGM churches teach) and that anyone can be forgiven if they will only put their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. ”
I am not a Calvinist either. What do think of how PDI/SGM subltely and surreptitiously moved towards Calvinism that I saw happening IMO? It is one thing to announce and make a change like this but shocking how they went about doing this.
Steve240:
The meeting with Danny Jones did not accomplish anything because he really did not seem to want to understand me or my teaching. He just let me talk. I poured my heart out to him sharing the awesome good news and he just listened silently, pretty much. I left him with a written manuscript (about 50 or so pages as I recall, maybe more, typed) that explained what I teach for him to review. He never said to me that he thought I was teaching heresy. He only asked a few questions. We parted cordially. He never called me to ask any questions or comment on the written material I left him. The whole meeting had the feeling of something fake and someone going through the motions so they could say they met with me. He knows the truth. Then the next Sunday he announces to the congregation that he met with me and that I am teaching heresy. Jesus disagrees. He had to announce it to the whole church because at least 30 of his members were attending the study and getting really set free. They were talking to others about it and the word was spreading. The meeting probably took 45 minutes, maybe.
Pam:
Amen sister! The good news of Jesus is indeed good news! SGM leaders like to say they want everything they teach to proceed from the cross of Jesus, but the true meaning of the cross is the glad news that God has stopped counting our sins! SGM is still counting sin and turning saints to look at their flesh so they can pefect themselves and become more holy. The reason the message of the cross seems like foolishness is because to the natural mind or the religious mind it is ludicrous to tell people God is not holding them accountable for their sins. Yet that is what the cross of Jesus is all about! Behold the Lamb who took away the sin of the world. The natural mind or religious mind cannot grasp how that would lead someone to a godly life, yet it does because the same Christ who died for me now lives for me within. The power of the Spirit of the God within the believer will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit through faith. We are not changed by looking at our nakedness. Like God said to Adam, “Who told you that you were naked?” It’s all the wrong thinking from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The new mind sees the revelation of the Tree of Life. Christ my life within. SGM has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. I read their definition of the gospel on their web site. They totally do not see the new creation at all. I read C. J. Mahaney’s article about how to not sin while watching the Super Bowl. How to have the remote close by so you can mute it when inappropriate commercials come on, etc. Ridiculous. Just like the Pharisees, he is trying to manage sin. I thought his article about the Super Bowl on their web site was very revealing. They are anything but free and anyone who follows them will not be free. As Paul confronted Peter to his face about his slide back into legalism in Galatia, this web site is confronting the leadership of SGM, formerly PDI, with their legalism. May they humble themselves, as Peter did, and respond as Peter did so that they might find true freedom in Christ and help others find that same freedom.
Steve:
Yes, it was deceptive. I saw it too. In fact as I walked with Danny out of his office that same day of our meeting, knowing where they were headed because of the various teachings I had heard. I asked him, “Danny, do you believe a person must be regenerated first before that person can exercise saving faith in Jesus?” He was a little stunned by the question because we were not really talking Reformed Theology and because he knew the question went to the heart of that belief. He stuttered and said, “Well yes, sure. Of course.” I didn’t say another word. Just said good-bye. I told one of their members later that his leaders believe that some people are destined by God to go to hell and that there is nothing those people can do about it. He did not believe it. He said, “No way.” I told him to ask Danny. The congregation had no clue where they were being led and now they are firmly in the middle of it. The great error of Calvinism is that it distorts the heart of the Father. If it was truth, then why all the subtle moves toward this teaching. Truth can stand the light of day. Jesus said to shout His good news from the house tops!
Jim:
So true what you said about Romans 7. That is a description of a believer struggling with the flesh and the answers are found in Romans 8. I like what you said about focusing on what God is focused on. We are told by the apostles to “set our mind on things above, where we are, seated with Christ Jesus.” We are admonished by the apostles to “look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.” The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians saying, “We look at the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as if we are looking in a mirror.” In other words, we are looking at our true selves, our new selves in Him. As we see who we are in Him we manifest who we are to the world. As John said, “As Jesus is so are we in this world.” Awesome reality! All received by grace. All experienced through faith. That no flesh can glory. We boast in Christ Jesus alone! Thanks for your labor of love in providing this web site for the saints.
The word perfect (teleios) is centered around the concept of completeness. Being perfect is not about us and how much we follow the law but about the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice for our sins that make us righteous.
We are perfect not by our actions or behavior but the actions and the life and death of Christ (who was without sin). When we believe on the Lord Jesus, God changes our condition (new creations) which is changed from sin to righteous. If we are righteous in Christ we are perfect in Him. If we are perfect we are made righteous in Him.
Because we are perfect (made righteous) the glory of God resides in us so we are able to be the expression of Christ and His glory in the earth and we are able to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.
So we are no longer just sinners save by grace but a people made Holy and righteousness to carry out the bidding of our great and mighty God, the Lord Jesus Christ, to advance the presence and dominion (influence) of His kingdom to the world (Matt 24:14).
Teleios can also refer to maturity. We can debate (which Christians have for years) as to how we apply this. I believe in light of the completeness of Christ – maturity is more about our faith maturing in understanding of who are in Him and the glory of God that resides in us.
But that’s just me!!!
C. J. Mahaney’s article about how to watch Super Bowl XLIV and not sin is on his blog on the SGM web site dated February 5, 2010. Incredible focus on sin and evil. Incredible. Very revealing about the mindset of C. J. Mahaney. Sad actually, because he leads so many people, or rather, so many follow him. The article is dripping with sin consciousness. J. C. is nowhere to be found in the article, just C. J. Unbelievable.
James Barron said:
“The meeting with Danny Jones did not accomplish anything because he really did not seem to want to understand me or my teaching. He just let me talk. …. I left him with a written manuscript (about 50 or so pages as I recall, maybe more, typed) that explained what I teach for him to review. He never said to me that he thought I was teaching heresy. He only asked a few questions. We parted cordially. He never called me to ask any questions or comment on the written material I left him. The whole meeting had the feeling of something fake and someone going through the motions so they could say they met with me. He knows the truth. Then the next Sunday he announces to the congregation that he met with me and that I am teaching heresy.”
James
Thanks for answering my question. What you are reporting about Danny Jones is so contradictory to the approach that SGM teaches and here we have one of the group’s “patriarchs” not practicing what the group supposedly teaches.
We hear so many times on this blog and the SGM Survivors blog that we are to go to one in private applying what is taught in Mathew 28. How hypocritical for someone of Danny Jones status to publicly on sunday use his position to call you an heretic without some discussion and questioning and interaction. I guess this is another example where SGM expects certain behaviors of others but doesn’t practice what they teach.
That must have been quite shocking to hear reports of Danny slandering and gossiping about you. I wonder if he feared the work that your teaching was doing and was quite jealous vs. being secure in Christ and glad that the work of the Lord was hapening.
Thanks also for your response on the group’s stealthy move toward Calvinism. I doubt that that many people within SGM understand what Calvinism which is sometimes callled “sovereign grace” (vs. free will) stands for. SGM also says they believe in Calvinism but some of their actions show otherwise.
If they say they believe in Calvinism why don’t they come out and blatantly say that God chooses only some for salvation and others have no hope of being saved? Why don’t they teach the implication of Calvinism that some of the children growing up in SGM will have no chance of salvation due to their not being part of the “elect” or as is sometimes said “predestined” for salvation? Why do they hold leaders accountable for their adult children’s actions including forcing leaders to step down when the claim they believe it is God who is in control of which of their children will and won’t be saved? This is all part of what Calvinism teaches.
James,
Ive been reading your discourses and I have to ask you a question. John and Jane are married and commited Christians. John commits adultry and is broken by his sin. According to scripture, Does John have to tell his wife as part of the process of repentance?
James was the antinomian answer to SGM’s legalism. One extreme to the other. Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all. Trading one heresy for another is not the answer. James speaks a smooth talk but Antinomianism, leads to a life of licentiousness. “Heck – my bud Jesus will forgive me if I do that hot chick on the other side of the bar, so why not go for it?” fits in well with his teaching. Very dangerous place to be.
It would be sad if SGM Refuge suddenly became the James Barron “Tree of Life” rah rah club.
If this becomes a “Reformed Bad ” Joseph Arminius Good ” conversation, it will last 1,200 years and go no where.
I skip the blog a couple days and sadly come back to see Barron’s name all over the place. I weep when I think of the close friends who have turned away from any faith in Christ because of the heresy of “Antinomianism”
You want an idea where Barron’s teaching leads? Study history
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/antinomi.htm
Agelessdebutante asks an interesting question that I doubt Barron is going to answer.
It is a question asked by a couple that almost followed him into his heresy. The wife said “James, if I commit adultery, do I need to ask my husband to forgive me?” and James answered”No, it was done at the cross.” Greasy Grace James. Thankfully they saw through your shell game and walked away. I wish all of the others did. Where are they today James? What ever happened to the mighty “Tree of Life” ?
Broken and disbanded and seen for the heresy that it is, with shattered people left in it’s wake. “Hey, you can sin, Jesus will forgive you” Satan said the same thing in the garden James.
Agelessdebutante:
Thanks for the question. Yes, of course, as Jesus taught and James (confessing our faults one to another, praying for each other, that you may be healed).
Nauseated:
Let me try to answer your questions and respond to your comments one by one:
1. The accusation that someone is “antinomian” (i.e. anti-law) who teaches the finished work of Jesus is a common response from those who are Calvinist or Reformed because their covenant theology teaches that the law is to continue to be a major part of a believer’s life (contrary to the teaching of scripture). They see the law as the surgeon who exposes sin with the knife and grace as the anesthesia that makes this process of sanctification tolerable. Paul taught very clearly that we as believers are dead to the law, not under the law, free from the law, released from the law, etc. Paul wrote: “We know that whatever the law says it says it only to those who are under the law.” He wrote: “The law is not for the righteous (and we are the righteous in Christ) but for the unrighteous.” We are under grace and not under law. Paul asks the Galatians: “You who want to be under the law, have you not read the law?” And then he begins his teaching about Sarah and Hagar showing that these are the two covenants. Sarah (Grace) and Hagar (Law). Paul writes: “Cast out the bondwoman (Hagar, a picture of the law) and her son (Ishmael, a picture of the flesh).” The law is profitable for the believer now in the sense that we can see Jesus hidden in the law and the prophets (which builds our faith in Him) and we can see God’s opinion on things but we are not under it nor or we to live under the dynamic of the law. The dynamic of the law is that it brings the knowledge of sin and it is not of faith. The law does not become of faith now that we are believers. And the dynamic that renews our minds and sets us free from sin in the flesh is not the knowledge of sin (that was the law which caused sin to increase and aroused the sinful passions of the flesh as Paul wrote in Romans 7), but rather the new dynamic of grace which is to bring us the knowledge of Christ Jesus and our new selves in Him through revelation of the Spirit. We no longer serve God in the oldness of the letter (the law) but in the newness of the Spirit (grace). That is the apostolic teaching on how a person is transformed into the image of Christ and that is not antinomian, it is the gospel. Walking in the Spirit makes the believer the best law abiding citizen ever because the believer is not just trying to keep some outward show of the law, but with a new heart, walking in the love of God, the believer fulfills the true intent of all law by living out of the inner man, the new heart. Love fulfills all law Paul taught. An antinomian would say you can break all the laws, nothing matters, you can not pay your taxes, you can sin all you want because God has forgiven you, etc. That kind of nonsense is not the belief of true believers. The grace of God has appeared to us teaching us to deny all ungodliness and the Spirit within us is the power to make it so. Besides, I am an attorney. I practice law as my profession. It is ludricuous to call me an antinomian. I’m a lawyer. God has a sense of humor.
2.
Nauseated:
2. The comments about the awesome saints that were part of Tree of Life Fellowship are incredibly mean-spirited and just plain slanderous. I assume you are still a member of one of the SGM churches since you are defending them with such a fervor. Is this what you have learned from the SGM churches? Would your pastor approve of the way you wrote those comments? The comment about lesbianism is a reference to a precious girl who was a part of Metro Life Church long before she ever attended Tree of Life Fellowship. She struggled with same sex attraction as a member of Metro Life Church. We were glad to encourage her in her new identity in Christ and we loved her as Jesus loves her. We prayed for her complete deliverance and freedom. I have no idea what you are referring to when you claim that the good news of the finished work of Christ caused divorce and people not attending church anymore. The saints who attended Tree of Life Fellowship would be shocked to hear that you even see them that way. They are incredible people who are still bearing fruit for the Master as the look only to Him for their righteousness and their life.
3.
Nauseated said, “Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all. ”
Nauseated, your comment has caused me, who has already suffered terribly from having to be a Christian associated with divorce, more pain than you can imagine. It’s been hours since I read your comment and I have yet to be able to find a way to express myself to you.
I pray that you and the countless other Christians out there never have to experience what I am millions of others have. I hope you’ll never know what it’s like to go through this, only to have your own brothers and sisters in Christ look down on you for something you didn’t want with all your might and spent a life time trying to avoid, to the point of shedding your own blood.
Stunned,
who yes, is way overly sensitive to Christians who act/speak/write as if divorce is a sin or are at least as insensitive to those who are going through some of the worst hell they can be going through against their will …. or is it that Christians who have their perfect little lives have no freaking regard for those whose worlds have been destroyed and reveal their own self righteous sin by uttering their cruel remarks?
PS. Jim, if my remarks are out of line, erase them. I don’t trust my own judgment right now.
Nauseated:
3. Tree of Life Fellowship was a group of believers that came together to worship Jesus and be taught the awesome New Covenant of grace and to encourage each other in the faith. It began as a small Bible Study in a home (the one that the 30 or so members of Metro Life Church attended for awhile) and grew to where we had to find a larger place to meet. We eventually ended up meeting at the Winter Park Civic Center on Morse Blvd. with an attendance of about 150 to 175 people. It was a glorious time together in so many ways. We tried new things like a breakfast buffet (free) for the saints and visitors before the meeting started. We set up round tables with chairs all over the auditorium so that it felt more like a banquet than pews in a church. We had an incrediblly gifted worship team with guitars, violins, drums, etc. We took our time to linger in the presence of Jesus together as we worshipped Him. He was there manifestly among us, as well as inside us, and many were encouraged and set free from legalism and condemnation. Then my wife and I and my little son moved out of state. The saints at Tree of Life Fellowship pretty much disbanded going to other churches and spreading the good news of God’s grace wherever they went. My mother had brain cancer and I wanted to be closer to her in her final months. I continued to practice law in another state to provide for my family. After Mom passed away we moved back to Orlando. We were only gone for about a year. Now, my wife and I are elders at Grace Church in Longwood (now with two sons) where Clark Whitten is pastor, a dear friend and a great warrior for the finished work of Christ. http://www.graceorlando.com We still keep in touch with many of the saints who we were priviliged to get to know through those years and several are now attending Grace Church in Longwood. I teach at my church and continue to see many set free from the law and condemnation and the flesh to enjoy their union with the risen Christ. We have great, exciting news to tell the world.
Nauseated:
I hope that answers your questions and comments. Your response to my postings was so much like the way the Pharisees responded to Jesus. They really hated Him and tried to catch Him with questions so they could accuse Him. They called Him a gluttonous man and wine bibber, a friend of sinners who eats with them. They would pose hypothetical questions out of the law to see if they could find a way to accuse Him of not being true to the scripture. They slandered Him and opposed Him. They condescendingly said that the masses were going after Jesus because the masses were ignorant of the law. I encourage you to ask Jesus if He is pleased with the way you have responded to me, your brother, and to the awesome good news of the grace of God in Christ. Don’t be afraid to search out the scriptures to see if these things be so. Don’t be afraid to disagree with your leaders when they are wrong and encourage them when they are right. A wonderful thing is happening in the body of Christ right now and the sparks are going to fly because people hate change and they are afraid of change. The body of Christ is awakening to the amazing grace of God in a new way. His bride is getting free and bearing much fruit to the glory of God and not men. I pray you will open your eyes and your heart and see what the Lord is doing in this time. Jesus is awesome!
Stunned,
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
it’s just more of the same to those of us whose marriages don’t look quite perfect, whose children aren’t like the sgm proverbial ducks in a row, whose edges haven’t been worn down enough to suit the “Christian elite”. When someone comes along and loves us in the grace-filled way that Jesus said to, then cries of “greasy grace” abound.
I didn’t know much about “correct doctrine” and calvinism vs arminism back then, and I don’t want to know about it now. Anyone that thinks that Jesus’ grace is cheap is fooling themselves and doesn’t really know him. Those who have been forgiven much, love much.
.
All we have to do is keep our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, no one else matters.
The issue, as I see it is that SGM leaders, like Nauseated, feel it necessary to go around nitpicking splinters out of the eyes of saints that are willing to sit there and subject themselves to such splinter-picking whilst they give lip-service to being the biggest badass sinners on the planet while, at the same time paradoxically, they think of themselves are more equal than any number of other categories of people unaware of the plank hanging from their own eyes.
When Jesus took care of our sin by His work on the cross and, although we still sin, we are also daily becoming transformed into what He wants to make us, but with gentleness.
Blind self-righteous leaders that cause so much angst and self-doubt in people might be reminded that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Stunned}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
That’s all I have to say. Hugs to you.
He who has created a state of nausea in me,
Please answer my question; what is the purpose of making such harsh statements with respect to divorce when those devout Christians (almost always women, hmmmmm….) have divorced only as a result of abuse or abandonment and the ones that divorced over less serious circumstances aren’t here and don’t give a rat’s backside about your opinion.
Were you trying to build someone up?
No, you caused pain in one of my sisters and you’re lucky that I respect Jim and this board and myself enough to have the self-control not to entertain my thoughts. Suffice to say that Stunned is a beautiful Christian sister that had no other avenue than to divorce an abusive man. Since then, God has seen fit to see this sweet flower blossom into an incredible dynamic woman. She is a blessing to everyone that knows her. I am so thankful she is free, I sm so thankful the Lord has restored what was stolen from her. I am thankful to be numbered amongst her friends.
DB,
Carole and I are happy to be among those who are blessed by Stunned.
The puke on our carpet has many colors. Nauseated has just come out of SGM, and is going through the inevitable transition in public. Although he had some strong words for James, as they have a history, I know that he’s going to feel horrible when he comes back here and realizes that he’s unintentionally hurt someone.
James-we all know about your church, as you’ve posted multiple links. Your name is linked, which is enough. Please tone down the blog spam.
Nauseated-broad, sweeping statements don’t help your cause.
Sorry, beloved friends, couldn’t stay away.
I just read Mr. Barron’s two blog entries on his website.
My brother, how do you explain these verses: John 14:23ff:
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Irv,
Thank you for the explanation of July 26, 11:33 pm. The word you used in place of perfection, “completeness”, is what my husband explained to me last night. Whether the word used is perfect, complete, maturity, etc., it all must be done by Jesus within us. It is possible to come to a maturity in Christ on this earth but not apart from Him. I would suggest that men like Billy Graham and David Wilkerson would be the closest example I can think of. They are saints who are near the end of their earthly lives and have kept the faith. They are fininshing the race!
Mr. Canary also spoke again about SGM’s focus on the “putting off” of sin. If we do not move to the “put on’s”, we can never fully mature in Christ. That is why I could never mature in the faith while a part of that organization (not that I am fully mature, only on the journey towards it). So, if I understand correctly, we have the “complete” work of Christ within us. By His example and help, we put off the old things (fleshly desires, sin, etc.) and put on the new things (fruits of the spirit). We are able to do this because of the complete work of Jesus in us. Does this sound right? Is my little bird brain getting it? :)
Irv:
Great comment on what “perfection” is all about. You are right on target. We are now perfect and complete in Christ Jesus and Paul admonishes us to not let anyone move us from this rest and reality. It is the true Sabbath rest written about in Hebrews 4. The essence of true maturity, as you wrote Irv, is a growing understanding and faith in Jesus the “reality” (or truth) and who we are in Him, created new by Him. The corresponding manifestation of that maturity in our daily lives is a self-less, sacrificial love that is a joy to give to God and others, because that is what we “see” when we “see” Jesus, the reality of who God is behind all that is seen. We are transformed into the same image we are beholding in the new dynamic of grace.
The awesome New Covenant that Jesus made on our behalf (the covenant being between the Father and the Son, with us as the third-party beneficiaries and not direct parties to the covenant itself, otherwise we would break the covenant by our actions) parts the veil and allows man to look upon the face of God in Christ Jesus and not die. As Moses looked upon God and His face began to shine with the same shining of God and he knew it not. (It is not a self-conscious transformation.) This is the New Covenant dynamic that transforms us.
As Jacob in his wrestling found himself looking into the face of God, yet alive, and discovered his real name, Israel, so do we, as new creations who are no longer in the flesh (Esau, our evil twin, so to speak), must awaken to see that “God is in this place (in me) and I knew it not” (Jacobs open door to heaven and ladder) and find our true identity as the sons and daughters of the living God, taking our place on earth as His ambassadors, fulfilling our destiny, until He comes again.
Jim:
Thanks for allowing me to respond to Nauseated by posting my comments. Blessings brother.
To all who have defended our sister, Stunned – you are truly loving saints.
No one can imagine what Stunned has been through and continues to go through. She is a valiant woman who continues to trust in the Lord while walking through a great trial. She has added so much to my life and others by her presence on the Refuge and the women’s blog. It is an honor to be counted among her friends.
Stunned, don’t be sad. Continue to follow Jesus. He has led you well so far. Any judgment you might feel is not from His heart. That is another thing Mr. Canary was saying last night as he read from Romans – there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. Love you!
Here ya go:
And if you greet your brethren only, what is unusual about that? Do not the unbelievers do the same? (Matt 5:47)
Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your lifespan? Matt 6:27
Why are you anxious about clothes? Matt 6:28
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye yet fail to perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? (Matt 7:2)
Do people pick grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (Matt 7:16)
Why are you terrified? (Matt 8:26)
Why do you harbor evil thoughts? (Matt 9:4)
Can the wedding guests mourn so long as the Bridegroom is with them? (Matt 9:15)
Do you believe I can do this? (Matt 9:28)
What did you go out to the desert to see? (Matt 11:8)
To what shall I compare this generation? (Matt 11:6)
Which of you who has a sheep that falls into a pit on the Sabbath will not take hold of it and lift it out? (Matt 12:11)
How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and take hold of his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? (Matt 12:29)
You brood of vipers! How can you say god things when you are evil? (Matt 12:34)
Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? (Matt 12:48)
Why did you doubt? (Matt 14:31)
And why do you break the commandments of God for the sake of your tradition? (Matt 15:3)
How many loaves do you have? (Matt 15:34)
Do you not yet understand? (Matt 16:8)
Who do people say the Son of Man is? (Matt 16:13)
But who do you say that I am? (Matt 16:15)
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life and what can one give in exchange for his life? (Matt 16:26)
O faithless and perverse generation how long must I endure you? (Matt 17:17)
Why do you ask me about what is good? (Matt 19:16)
Can you drink the cup that I am going to drink? (Matt 20:22)
What do you want me to do for you? (Matt 20:32)
Did you never read the scriptures? (Matt 21:42)
Why are you testing me? (Matt 22:18)
Blind fools, which is greater, the gold or the temple that makes the gold sacred….the gift of the altar that makes the gift sacred? (Matt 23:17-19)
How are you to avoid being sentenced to hell? (Matt 23:33)
Why do you make trouble for the woman? (Matt 26:10)
Could you not watch for me one brief hour? (Matt 26:40)
Do you think I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than 12 legions of angels? (Matt 26:53)
Have you come out as against a robber with swords and clubs to seize me? (Matt 26:53)
My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me? (Matt 27:46)
Why are you thinking such things in your heart? (Mark 2:8)
Is a lamp brought to be put under a basket or under a bed rather than on a lamp stand? (Mark 4:21)
Who has touched my clothes? (Mark 5:30)
Why this commotion and weeping? (Mark 5:39)
Are even you likewise without understanding? (Mark 7:18)
Why does this generation seek a sign? (Mark 8:12)
Do you not yet understand or comprehend? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes and still not see? Ears and not hear? (Mark 8:17-18)
How many wicker baskets full of leftover fragments did you pick up? (Mark 8:19)
[To the Blind man] Do you see anything? (Mark 8:23)
What were arguing about on the way? (Mark 9:33)
Salt is good, but what if salt becomes flat? (Mark 9:50)
What did Moses command you? (Mark 10:3)
Do you see these great buildings? They will all be thrown down. (Mark 13:2)
Simon, are you asleep? (Mark 14:37)
Why were you looking for me? (Luke 2:49)
What are you thinking in your hearts? (Luke 5:22)
Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ and not do what I command? (Luke 6:46)
Where is your faith (Luke 8:25)
What is your name? (Luke 8:30)
Who touched me? (Luke 8:45)
Will you be exalted to heaven? (Luke 10:15)
What is written in the law? How do you read it? (Luke 10:26)
Which of these three in your opinion was neighbor to the robber’s victim? (Luke 10:36)
Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside? (Luke 11:40)
Friend, who appointed me as your judge and arbiter? (Luke 12:14)
If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest? (Luke 12:26)
Why do you not judge for yourself what is right? (Luke 12:57)
What king, marching into battle would not first sit down and decide whether with ten thousand troops he can successfully oppose another king marching upon him with twenty thousand troops? (Luke 14:31)
If therefore you are not trustworthy with worldly wealth, who will trust you with true wealth? (Luke 16:11)
Has none but this foreigner returned to give thanks to God? (Luke 17:18)
Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? (Luke 18:7)
But when the Son of Man comes, will he find any faith on earth? (Luke 18:8)
For who is greater, the one seated a table or the one who serves? (Luke 22:27)
Why are you sleeping? (Luke 22:46)
For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry? (Luke 23:31)
What are you discussing as you walk along? (Luke 24:17)
Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter his glory? (Luke 24:26)
Have you anything here to eat? (Luke 24:41)
What are you looking for? (John 1:38)
How does this concern of your affect me? (John 2:4)
You are a teacher in Israel and you do not understand this? (John 3: 10)
If I tell you about earthly things and you will not believe, how will you believe when I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3: 12)
Do you want to be well? (John 5:6)
How is it that you seek praise from one another and not seek the praise that comes from God? (John 5:44)
If you do not believe Moses’ writings how will you believe me? (John 5:47)
Where can we buy enough food for them to eat? (John 6:5)
Does this shock you? (John 6:61)
Do you also want to leave me? (John 6:67)
Why are you trying to kill me? (John 7:19)
Woman where are they, has no one condemned you? (John 8:10)
Why do you not understand what I am saying? (John 8:43)
Can any of you charge me with sin? (John 8:46)
If I am telling you the truth, why do you not believe me? (John 8:46)
Are there not twelve hours in a day? (John 11:9)
Do you believe this? (John 11:26)
Do you realize what I have done for you? (John 13:12)
Have I been with you for so long and still you do not know me? (John 14:9)
Whom are you looking for? (John 18:4)
Shall I not drink the cup the Father gave me? (John 18:11)
If I have spoken rightly, why did you strike me? (John 18:23)
Do you say [what you say about me] on your own or have others been telling you about me? (John 18:34)
Have you come to believe because you have seen me? (John 20:29)
Do you love me? (John 21:16)
What if I want John to remain until I come? (John 21:22)
What concern is it of yours? (John 21:22)
SGM is no more reformed than my black labrador.
Can we focus…or are we going to open the arminian/calvin arguments all over again?
How is this encouraging one another? James –you understand, don’t you, my brother, that you are totally wrong about your interpretation of scripture? Your God, who wants every single person in the universe to be saved, does not make it happen? A God who wills, but does not act? A God who desires, but is never satisfied? What is he, impotent? Jesus told us not a jot or tiddle of the law disappears…etc.
Just an example of the tone lately–not an opening for argument.
My brethren, if you want instruction in grace, do not read the last half of this series of posts.
We’re infighting and lecturing and pontificating and rebuking and bragging and lording it over each other…none of which has SQUAT DOODLE to do with helping our wounded SGM brethren to find freedom.
Checking out for now–I’ll return later when we get back to work.
My dear brother, Nauseated. Please know that I don’t believe you intended hurt and pain. I have seen enough of your interaction here, that I don’t believe there was intent to harm or even any awareness of it. (Besides, if you had wanted to, I’m sure you would have included a tongue sticking out of a smiley face or something like that.
) I truly believe what I’ve just said.
Ellie, DB, canary, Jim, I appreciate your kind love. (Though a few of you and your love made me cry harder. And to that I say :-p) I guess I just want to see the church not act as if divorce is a sin. It is NOT. Abuse, murder- they are sins. Adultery is a sin. Lying is a sin. Cheating is a sin. Self righteousness is a sin. Abandoning your family is a sin. Running around on your partner is a sin. Neglecting your spouse is a sin. Being cruel to another person is a sin. Throwing rocks at someone laying on the side of a road is a sin.
But divorce? Divorce is NOT a sin. Divorce is a gift from God (study the OT law if you doubt me) given to His people so that if they are being neglected or abused, they can be released from such bondage and be taken care of and given hope and a future.
God hates divorce, you say? You’re darned tooting right He does! Cause you know what? He ain’t a fan of what leads up to it! What kind of a father would want to see His children live in sheer terror in their own homes? To be harassed, used and abused? Lied to? Manipulated? Neglected? Be treated harshly with no hope for change? He HATES divorce but He sure as heck ain’t no fan of having his sons and daughters stuck in the hell hole some of us have lived through due to the hardness of our partner’s heart. So HE gave us divorce as a gift.
Doubt me? Think God has nothing to do with divorce? Then let’s look at the cross and consider it from that view point. (Sorry for making ex-SGMer’s cringe. The cross can be a good thing as a tool in God’s hands- and not to beat you over the head with.)
Did God LIKE it when Adam and Even sinned? Was He happy about it? No, of course not. What was His answer to rescue us from the fall of mankind, from the hell of our sin (and from hell itself)? Jesus dying on the cross. Does that mean that God loved the cross and loved everything that had to go on there? That He thought the cross and what Jesus had to go through was super neato? Can’t imagine He enjoyed separating Himself from His son- them being out of communion for a time- let alone all the other stuff that happened to Jesus that day. I’d imagine God wasn’t a big fan of all the pain and separation at all. But just because He is not a fan of sadness, grief, pain, etc, does NOT mean that Jesus dying on the cross to release us from death was NOT His gift to us.
He hates injustice. The bible tells us that time and again. Yet is there anything more unjust than for a righteous man to pay for my sins? Nope! But am I going to say that that CAN’T be God’s plan or God’s gift to me, merely because He says He hates injustice? No freaking way!
It was/is His plan to set those of us going to hell, free. I thank God for the gift of salvation that came through what Jesus did for me at Calvary.
Back to divorce: He doesn’t like divorce, man he HATES it. So do I. You have no idea. But I also see it as a gift, created and given by God so that I can live without fear. (OK, so I still have fear and nightmares and I look over my shoulder some moments- even when alone in my own home- and let’s not even get started on PTSD, but at least leaving that situation was the beginning of healing that I hope I will some day experience.)
So next time we are going to say the word divorce and act like it’s a sin, let’s put our brains and our hearts into gear just a little bit and recognize this condemnation as coming from the very pit of hell. The kind of hell that traps really good people in a bondage God NEVER intended them to live in. Then let’s pull back, and give our kids, or our friends, or the guy who bags our groceries at the store a bit more love because we never know what they’re going through, or what they will go through one day.
Stunned
and a bit overwhelmed by her own emotions and that of her kind fellow posters
Jesus did not quote Psalm 22.
Psalm 22 quoted Jesus.
For isn’t that what prophecy (true prophecy) is–echoes of the future?
That’s why false prophets were (and probably should be today) stoned?
They spoke/speak lies, claiming to speak for God. Someone claiming to speak propheticaly should tremble under and be amazed by the awesome calling.
Such glory–in the timelessness of eternity, those pain-filled words echoed forward in time. Don’t think Jesus was going around making sure he said each prophetic word, fulfilled each prophetic action. He is the very timeless Word incarnate.
Instead, his life, death and resurrection was so pivotal, (indeed the lynch-pin of all history), that it thunders forwards and backwards through what we know as time.
Thanks for the dialogue, my friend!
Stunned has a point, God hates divorce not the actual divorce that grants legal recourse to spouses that need relief from abuse but, now listen (said in my best foghornleghorn voice,) now listen up…..because a divorce represents wrongdoing to another person.
What God hates is the abuse that some people in places of authority seem all too willing to wink and ignore.
Let me tally the score…..
God sees us as righteous through Jesus. The leadership over in SGMvills sniff sin.
God has allowed legal recourse for people in an abusive marriage but hates divorce because it represents serious abuse of someone….SGM patriocentrists get it all bass akwards with results the polar opposite of what is just.
Strike two.
Honestly, people, it boils down to the Golden Rule. If these fellows woke up with a gender reassignment, I bet they would change their tune.
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I am curious how Nauseated could make such a statement. Did he do some type or survey and keep that much track of all the former members of this man’s church that he could accurately make a statement like this? Just cause there might have some where this is what they did does that mean one can assume that all took this path vs. going to other churches when this leader had to relocate?
I need to add Joni Erickson Tada to my list of saints who have reached maturity in Christ. After 43 years of being paralyzed, she is now battling breast cancer. Fortunately it has not spread to her bones or lymph nodes, but the chemo will be dangerous for her. She remains strong in her faith, cheerful and encouraging. She has an unbreakable faith in Jesus Christ. She has influenced many for the Gospel. Certainly she is another saint who will finish the race towards “perfection”.
Stunned, I believe the issue of divorce should be re-evaluated by church leaders. It is unfair to put everyone in the same category and then call it sin. I know your situation. You had not choice but to get away from a dangerous man. Isn’t that why the three couples defended Esther when she left her husband? I say again that great joy is coming for you. Hang on!
I know of a very young Christian couple who recently divorced because the wife cheated. They have a baby. Then the guy moved in with his girlfriend, who is now pregnant. THIS situation is ripe with sin. These young people have presented themselves as Christians, yet have behaved as non believers. They are close to apostasy. In this case, their divorce was sinful.
When a faithful wife is threatened emotionally and physically by her husband, it is time to GET OUT. I think your above post on divorce comes from a woman who has walked a very arduous path, following Jesus as best she could. You are an example to other women who might be reading this blog and are in your shoes. NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus. GET AWAY from a dangerous man. Even our governing laws support this. Any pastor or believer who would send a woman back to a husband who would harm her needs to re-evaluate whether they are truly walking in the Faith. Hugs, my sister!
DB
Nausted is not a memebr of SGM, MLC or any leadership team.
Steve:
Nauseated said:
“Most of the folks that went with “Tree of Life” (Barron’s non church) are now either living lesbian lifestyles, divorced or not involved in any church life at all.”
I can answer that for you. Metro Life was about 125 people back in that day and James Barron was never a memebr or a part of that fellowship. Ruth, the woman who struggled with that lifestyle became “free” if you want to call it that, at Tree of Life. She was then “free”to engage in a relationship with Donna who was married to Bill. At Tree of Life they were “free by the grace of God” to have there relationship until Bill could not take it anymore, and they divorced. Dear friends of our were on the fence about leaving Metro and joined Tree of Life. They had a joint meeting with James and Danny . When Kathy asked the question I asked James above about confessing adultry to your spouse, Jame’s response was NO! It is covered by the blood. When we got together with John and Kathy afterwards that was the key that made them bail out of Tree of Life. James built his church by sheep stealing. We know because we were heavily courted by people in the Tree of Life movement. Bill, Donna and Ruth are far from the only horror story. Brian and Sheryl, Ken, Selmer and Ellen. The people that heard gressy grace and then came back to convince others to join them There was no evangelism at Tree. The methodology for church growth was devisive. James, you know a lot. That lawyer gene is strong. You look for those who have been beat up by legalism. I see this is now your new playground. It’s a small world James.
PS I left SGM in December of 2009 on sabatical and formally no longer a memberafter 22 years as of June 2010. I have posted many times here and I am no great lover of SGM in it’s present state, so please don’t tag me in that light. I advise you all to move with caution. Satan wispers just enough truth and then twists the end note.
Nauseated,
I will take you at your word.
Anyway, Jim had your back.
I just don’t like seeing a good friend hurt.
I wonder what the church would be like if we treated anger, unforgiveness, anxiousness,etc. on an equal footing as adultry, divorce, etc. as sin is sin —– guilt of one – guilty of all — I seem to remember that God hates sin — not just divorce!!
Thank God His wrath against our sin was satisfied at the cross. My problem is Christians keep nailing each other to the cross!!
But there you go!!
Agelessdebutante:
You have really, really, really been misinformed as to the facts about situations in the personal lives of believers that happened about 20 years ago. Feel free to contact me personally, if you sincerely want to know the truth. I hope you find peace and joy again in the journey in your transition out of SGM. The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever. I pray that everyone who participates on this site will remember our Lord’s words: “Love one another, as I have loved you.” Blessings to you all, my brothers and sisters. It’s been great to talk to some of you by phone this week. Be encouraged. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the revelation of Jesus the Christ. Amen.
I was offline for a few days, and when I came back, wow, what a lot to wade through, and much of it wayyy out of the normal stream of this discussion.
Stunned — you are stunning. As soon as I read the post about divorce that you responded to, I was ready to jump right in. But then, I read a little farther and saw that you’d taken the words right off my page and made them far more eloquent.
Believe it or not, the person who set me free from being about judgmental about divorced people was RC Cola himself — Sproul — way back before SGM ever heard of him. We went through a Sunday school series in a PCA church, and he explained the dilemma pretty well. God hates divorce , yes, but he’s the one who provided it.
After years of seeing marriages in action, I finally came to understand that divorce is often just a public acknowledgment of something that has already happened in private. Sadly, many people I know are already privately “divorced”, but continue to cohabit due to their fear of judgmentalism from the people they love. How I love the church — but how sad that many times, we are the army that shoots its own wounded.
RT — you’re the bomb. You’ve got it going on, girl.
Next time lightning zaps my internet service, I’m gonna check in somewhere else. Too much to catch up on!
Our dear Irv, ah, not that I don’t feel like I haven’t already stirred enough things here today, but are you equating anger (an emotion) and anxiousness (usually a medical condition) with sin? It would seem like you just equated adultry with divorce. Hmm. Am I missing something or did you miss my post above? (Doing my best not to end this with “Boi”.
But I know you don’t live in the hood so it probably wouldn’t have the same effect.)
PS. Like the “nailing each other to the cross” comment.
Jim:
After agelessdebutante made those serious allegations, I would ask that you would be fair to me and post the comment I sent to you for posting minutes ago. Thanks.
James
James,
If you’re referring to an email, I didn’t receive it. Maybe you’re referring to a comment that was stuck in moderation.
Comments go into moderation at random-it’s not something I have set up. During the day, I’m stuck my computer (self employed) and clear as quick as I can. After hours is another matter.
Jim:
No problem. You posted it. Thanks much. It was my comment that posted at 9:47 pm. It must have been stuck in moderation. I just wanted agelessdebutante to know that she could call me directly if she wanted to know the facts. In her comment posted at 5:54 pm about me and other believers and Tree of Life Fellowship there was only one thing she stated that was true and that was that I was never a member of an SGM church. Every other single statement in that comment was untrue. Every single one. The problem with blogs is that anyone can say anything. Thanks for being fair, Jim.
Stunned –
I was merely trying to say the church qualifies sin into acceptable and unacceptable categories as far as how we treat one another. We destroy(nail them to the cross) the divorced and the ‘unwanted or unfortunate’ pregancy’ of a single woman but we accept and treat people with other sins much differently.
We are very good at destroying one another with our judgment of one another based on how we qualify or determine the weight of the sins of others. These are the sames sins past, present and future for which Christ gave His life on the cross. There are Christians that believe they are compromising God’s word if they love and care for someone who is divorced. Yet when they deal with others who are proud or arrogant or whatever they are so forgiving and gracious. Within SGM — if you pursue divorce then it is questionable whether you are saved and certainly you don’t understand the gospel or you would not divorce (regardless of the situation). Such manipulation and unrighteousness.
If you challenge authority you are independent, rebellious, proud, arrogant, etc. But if a leader is any of these things confess your sin, everybody forgive and move on. This is not right nor is it reflective of God’s love or His justice.
As I study and understand the scripture, our life with the Lord is about us being expressions of His compassion, grace, mercy, love, kindness, reliability and forgiveness in the earth. These attributes are what the Bible describes as the Glory of God.
My love for you (Stunned) is because you are a real person, a Christian and a sister not based on how good you are or how much sin you have overcome but because you are created in the image of God, that you have great value to God and to others (us) and the love of God that lives in my heart.
There may be some things the Piper teaches that I might debate but I love his description of how he describes himself as a Christian hedonist – “I am here to glorify God and enjoy Him forever” That may be more of my paraphrase than an exact quote.
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
I could not agree more James, any one can say anything. These people were my personal friends. I still keep in touch with Ruth K. as well as John and Kathy M. First hand knowledge and relationships are not heresay.
Irv,
Thank you so much for clearing that up. I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I had thought the views you wrote were actually yours and I was beginning to worry that you weren’t who I thought you were. Wow, I was off. Thank heavens, Brother!
Have a good one,
Stunned
Stunned – Thank you – It was too late to be posting! A point of clarity in this last paragraph - His wrath and judgement of our sin was satisfied at the cross —
Again, my point was not a focus on sin but how we tend to react to other Christians when we do sin and how we rate the severity of that sin. Sin is sin and God’s hates it all. His wrath and judgement of His sin was satisfied at the cross. Hope that brings some clarity.
Saved by grace. Called to obey. Freed from punishment. Made righteous by Jesus.
A mystery.
I’ll tweet to that!
As he did years ago, all attention was drawn his way- but since this is about
We-are-fam-a-lee…
I will again (along with RT) try and veer this back to the topic at hand.
Heard that another 5 families have left over the last 2 weeks.
How many Nathans does God have to send before they will listen? Don’t hear what I am not saying, I am NOT happy to see the exodus. I am praying that at some point they begin to listen, repent and change.
Think about it -you’re married for 20 years, your spouse leaves you, do you pray for them, or rejoice when they get cancer?
veering back on …..how many are left at MLC? And could the bottom line ($$) start feeling this exodus by some chance?
I believe the reason there are NO public confessions is due to the risk of litigation so I also hope that the me$$age is getting across in a variety of ways including attendance and their budget.
veering off….RT – I just have to tell you I LOVED all the questions you quoted from Jesus!
ok, back on topic………
Love is patient. Love is kind. Love does not envy. Love does not parade itself and is not puffed up. It does not behave rudely or seek its own. Love is not provoked and thinks no evil. It does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. Love bears all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. He who does not love does not know God, for God is Love. By this we know Love, because He (Jesus Christ) laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.” 1st John and 1st Corinthians
Ask the Lord, “Jesus, have I really passed from death to life”? Or to put it another way, “Do I really love my brothers and sisters in Christ?”
Christianity is not rocket science. God loves you! Believe it, receive it, and pass it on.
Chris Wiley in Christ
Going to start singing bum bum bum..another bites the dust.
I agree Nauseated. I really thought after the last Family meeting meant to straighten out the whole Mike N and the repentance by Danny that ensues,people would have calmed down. Far from it. No one is buying it I guess. Two new sets of our friends are starting the new church hunt this weekend, not including the other 3 family units that have left over the past few weeks. Pray that God provides new stable church homes for them all! As for those who are still on the fence, and we know quite a few “heavy hitters” That God would give them wisdom as to where and when. the Why is really not an issue for any of us who have gone.
Sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. I want it all to be like it was 8 years ago. then I get my selfish head out of the sand and embrace what God is doing now, and the journey he has in the future. God is good! There is no reason to look back.
Gene Emerson announced a new Family Meeting on August 15th. He stated encountering God in conviction and empowering in a special way while away for two weeks in prayer, study, and planning, reporting a deepening, and he forecasted a benefit to those who attend.
The part of me who knows Gene is VERY sceptical; the part who knows God is VERY hopeful! If he is willing to risk losing it all, God WILL meet him powerfully. If Gene attempt to re-market the same old, same old with his smile, personality, and “sweetness,” Kingsway and the “churches” Gene oversees with remain in the “O.R.” grasping for LIFE, chugging along like other man-governed institution. Sorry if that sounds a little harsh. Maybe I am a little tainted based on my years in his “church,” and my personal dealings with him. God is good and can really turn us around. I pray for you Gene and wonder if those you’ve hurt will be acknowledge or contacted. Don’t try to take a short cut around doing what is right.
Anyone from Kingsway on here? We would love to hear the results of that family meeting to get a feel for the direction SGM is headed in
Hi G.D.! I can undestand your scepticism and also your hope. You don’t sound harsh, just frank. Let’s hope the Holy Spirit is truly working in Gene’s heart. This could bring some good change if it is real.
Thanks Canary. You are always gracious.
I’ll keep my ears to the ground in VA–so much pain coming out of there right now.
It’s about time SGM was held accountable – a term and concept they have tossed around for decades now. But, it seems that SGM embraces the Jimmy Swaggart version of accountability – “I’m accountable until I don’t want to be accountable any longer; and I choose to whom I will be held accountable – and my decisions are subject to change.” It’s really rather juvenile. I’ve known them from their inception albeit from a short distance. Thank God though, it was from a distance; although, I have dear friends who have come under their spell.
I have a few thoughts.
1. I agree 100% with the message of Christ’s finished work. It’s as clear to me as the big blue sky. Why isn’t it clear to all those who love truth? The difference between religion and grace is not that of splitting theological hairs. It is as different as life and death. As James Barron has said “This Changes Everything.” It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. It’s quite another to oppose, resist and burn at the stake (metaphorically of course) those who proclaim Good News. This indicates a disturbing turn of mind with which I cannot find any peace.
2. Calvin proposed his doctrine well before the modern atheism of the Enlightenment not to mention 20th century naturalism. “Whodda thunk it” but Calvinism and modern atheism share the same corollary – that there is no free will. No other philosophy or theology maintains this position. Not many people bother to press atheists on this issue mostly because they are busy rehearsing the classic proofs for God’s existence. But as a polemic, we should at least note that Calvinists and atheists are joined at the philosophical hip. Neither the atheist nor the Calvinist can allow for the slightest hint of choice (aka free will) else their system of thought falls like a house of cards. The atheist cannot allow it (free will) because it proves the existence of the transcendent or at least the supra-natural. The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in.
3. Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.
4. Be strong my fellow believers. We should derive encouragement from one of modern’s most prominent atheists, Christopher Hitchens, who has recently noted in his memoir that his early boldness came as he brushed up against world leaders and policy makers and discovered that they were astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed. As well, the “church world” (quite different from the church of which Jesus spoke) is often led by inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy. We are gradually awakening to the fact that “the inmates have been running the asylum” and we common folk may well do a much better job because the spirited believer possesses and uses that all-too-rare ability - discernment (knowing the difference between information and wisdom).
5. When one soaks one’s feet in ice cold water until 4:00 am so that one can stay awake to write whatever may be flowing from one’s head, one should not be judged too harshly for producing “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Stay at it my friends.
OK, I’ll bite.
Noel, you know that several of us here are reformed, several charismatic, several evangelical, several not sure, several lost, and all of us focused on SGM and the fallout we deal with either as a former member or as a friend or family member. All get along fine as long as we keep our focus on the pain and error and abuse in SGM, right? Your arrogant tone offends.
SGM is as charismatic as they are reformed as they are evangelical. They are a theological mongrel
.
What the heck does this new harshly toned reformed/arminian/whatever debate have to do with SGM?
(And, (honest question) how do you deal with Romans 8 and Romans 9? I always wonder about that.)
Christopher Hitchens…really? Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
Can we get back on track???
RT:
Thanks for your observation about my tone, until the magic age of the internet usually only thought of as discerned audibly. As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.
And I do wish not to divert a forum or thread from its intended course. So, I’ll ask you (and others) what I asked Jim via direct email (when I thought my post was rejected; in fact, it had been lost in cyberspace). Here it is, copied and pasted.
I’d still like your take on my comments if you have time. I’d also like your perspective on exactly how much Calvinism has to do with SGM’s woes. How much does the doctrinal squabble play into people leaving SGM? Also, what part does Reformed Theology play in any heavy authoritarianism within SGM? Does it tend to support it or constrain it? In other words, if SGM takes its Reformed positions seriously (and it certainly seems that they do), will this theology have the effect of encouraging/enabling a cult-like control of people’s lives? Or, will it have the effect of opening people’s eyes? If it does not have the effect of disquieting the flock, why not? When folks leave SGM, do they shed Reformed Theology in general? (I know that you haven’t; but, I wonder if you have a feel for what others have done).
We probably agree that ideas have consequences. Although, I may be taking this for granted. If it’s true, what consequence does Reformed Theology have upon “church life?”
Allrighty then, there she goes. I realize this does nothing to cure my arrogance. (I often muse upon what might have been had I just buckled under, joined PDI/SGM and submitted to the corrective measures designed to deal with my pride and self-sufficiency. At least I could have had a more theologically-correct moniker for my sin than . . . arrogance).
Here is where I hope this may bring some balm to the otherwise hurting saint: Truth, while dificult to swallow at times, is the surest antidote for the issue that is causing the pain. Inasmuch as Reformed Theology is consistent with Truth, it may offer its own therapy. However, inasmuch as it is inconsistent with Truth, it offers its own exacerbating of the pain-causing problem. [I also understand that some error can offer a drug-like effect, numbing the patient, disabling them to sense the warning signs - aka "pain" - produced when we are in error or simply abused by others. 'Tis a difficult matter to discern, I think.]
Disclosure: I was raised Pentecostal and if I am forced to pick a camp, I would pick that one. Not charismatic. Pentecostal. “Holy Rollers” was the theologically-correct designation when I was a kid. Only God knows what it is now. As you can imagine, not a lot scares me.
If you guys allow me to participate, I seek answers as an observer more than as a hurt one or even “one.” For I was never officially a part of SGM. But, the body of Christ being what it is, I claim some kinship even if it is a congenial relationship with one of its pastors. We love Brian and Jill Vander Weide dearly as I think they do us. And we think there are no finer folks in the world, albeit somewhat hoodwinked by the whole SGM thingamabob.
You asked: Could you please name the men and women you are describing when you say this: “inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
My answer is a typically religious one – “please trust me; I hope not to name names.” But, if I must, Noel Cookman circa 1976 – 1998. No big kahuna or anything of the sort. But, in my own little world, people did ascribe some sort of supremacy to me. I wasn’t smart enough to turn it into cash. But, it happened nonetheless.
If you can wait for me to tackle Romans 8 & 9 until I’ve had more coffee, I’d appreciate your patience. Unless you tell me differently, I’ll look for how this part of Paul’s writing deals with what we call Reformed Theology.
Blessings my friend.
RT
I am not sure that I would describe Noel’s post as having an “arrogant tone.” One should also note that this Noel appears to be different than the other Noel who attended the Fairfax SGM Church (along with her husband “Grizzly” and shared how her 3 year old daughter was molested and how the Fairfax SGM Leaders seem to try and protect the 15 year old molester. That Noel’s story can be read on SGM Survivors.
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http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....wpmp_tp=10
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=583
This Noel (Cookman) certainly posted some information I haven’t heard before about Calvinism. It certainly makes some good points.
You ask what does her discussion has to do with Sovereign Grace Ministries. For one, the part of SGM’s name that mentions “sovereign grace” is another way of saying Calvinism. For example I have seen some Baptist Churches go the name Sovereign Grace Baptist and others use the name Free Will Baptist Church. Again SGM’s name blatantly says they are Calvinistic.
I would say it has even more relevance in that Mahaney and other top leaders very surreptitiously moved the group towards Calvinism. It wasn’t like the group announced their change in doctrine and were open about it. This change was one of the reasons that Larry Tomczak indicated (in one of his books) why he left the group and one of the reasons why the group’s first church plant in Cleveland left the group.
It is sad that when a group decides on a change like this they can’t be more open about it. It doesn’t show a lot of integrity.
One thing that baffles me is that is appears that not many of the regular SGM Members know what Calvinism teaches including the possibility that some of their children have no chance of being saved even if their parents do all the right things. Of course as has been said before, SGM Leaders’ actions sometimes contradict their supposedly believing in Calvinism.
I am a man, or so says my wife when forced to admit it. And “Noel” is such a lovely name. And to make matters worse, my physiognomy is not near as lovely, not what one would hope from someone named “Noel.”
Noel,
SGM/PDI’s view of pastoral authority comes from the shepherding movement, which I don’t think defined themselves as reformed. SGM’s use of the word “apostle” is a hangover from their early, more charismatic days, although they re-define the term every few years.
It’s interesting to note that many early PDI leaders who left (possibly) because of PDI’s drift toward their brand of reformed theology still call themselves apostles.
RT asked about my thoughts on Romans 8 & 9.
Glad you didn’t ask me about Romans 7.
If a new believer were to read this before he is “taught” by the elders, he would probably think that he was free and that the law of sin and death no longer condemned him or applied to him. He might even think that he was free to sin but would soon learn the simple truth about how our bodies are ministers of one thing or another and probably wouldn’t persist in this error.
Teachers have been able to disabuse new believers of this notion rather efficiently. The quickest way to do this is to convince the new believer that there really is no NEW covenant; that we are all under one continuous covenant and that sin is an ongoing problem for the believer – both as a behavior and as a point of condemnation. (This is critical to Reformed Theology although I’m not sure which letter of TULIP it fits under).
The sense that God still condemns us (or at least requires our ongoing confession and repentance) fits nicely into the “carnal” mindset although, when I was a preacher, such a message garnered the loudest “amen’s.” For all the bad rap it gets, condemnation is preferred fare for many a church person.
The drama surrounding my dismemberment happened before PDI morphed into its Calvinistic incarnation SGM. I would also lay blame on the connection between this family of churches and the shepherding movement.
I would also like to note that my husband and I noticed a shift when Larry T. left. I believe there was something of a balance when LT and CJM shared power. This power void was quickly filled by CJ creating the Sith Lord we know today.
I am somewhat intrigued by the connection between some legalists and Calvinism. I don’t think SGM theology lines up with 5 point TULIP I think they are zinneas or dandilions or some other sort of species.
Noel
One point that has been discussed before is that SGM call itself “reformed” but some of its practices aren’t what usually happen in a reformed church. The people that SGM call “elders” aren’t lay people from the congregation but the paid staff. Also I understand that most reformed churches the elders are usually elected.
Apparently SGM likes to call itself reformed for a number of reasons. One is that Mahaney can use that to mingle with the other RBD (Reformed Big Dogs). I wouldn’t say that the group being reformed leads to their problems including the reported spiritual abuse.
Romans 5:9
Therefore, since we are now justified ( acquitted, made righteous, and brought into right relationship with God) by Christ’s blood, how much more [certain is it that] we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and wrath of God.
Romans 9:22
What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?
Ephesians 2:3
Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God's] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
These are only 3 of the 32 times God’s wrath is mentioned in the New Testament.
RT!
Thank you!
I’m done-RT has just said everything I’d like to say (and more, as she’s smarter that I am) on the issue.
Guys, can we take a break and leave our pet doctrines (or hatred of the beliefs of others) at the door for a while? I’m really sick of the tone here lately.
If you’re here to pick a fight, please think twice before you post.
What about Col 1: 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel…
Death on a cross: the most humiliating and horrifyingly painful imaginable. Suffering, sweat, blood, strangulation, stabbing, nails, broken bones, thirst, heat, pain, isolation.
If there was no substitutionary work being done, why didn’t he just blow a dandelion, click his heels together three times, and sing Kum-ba-ya?
Perhaps we should be thinking about this: why is it so important to believe that there was no wrath directed towards us from a holy God which had to be removed from us?
Like Jim said, Isaiah 53, specifically:
Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
HOW DO YOU SIMPLY IGNORE SCRIPTURE?
Of course his love for us drove him–to the cross.
How do I approach one who would step in front of me before his father?
With awe, trembling, love, desire, surprise, thankfulness.
Jim–not smarter. Just longer-winded.
You used the word “hatred.” That is precisely the thing that has caused me heart-ache here the last couple of weeks. Spot on. Couldn’t put my finger on it before.
This is good for SGMers to see? This helps them see the beauty and freedom out here?
Or does it just make them pull their heads back in and take another sip of the Cherry Kool-aid?
Wow, um, this has been quite the thread lately! I’ve been following it on my iPod Touch while on vacation but tiny on-screen keyboards do not lend themselves to much commenting. Thanks, RT and Jim, for your uber rational posts. Others of you, too, but those are the two that stand out most recently. I think it is tempting for those of us who object to a heavy focus on sin and wrath to run too far to the opposite end of the spectrum in reaction. Watch carefully which new doctrinal door you choose to take refuge behind. It is not necessarily right just because it is different from the one from which you just fled.
~ Vida
“Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
Yes, I think that I should have read all the posts first. I didn’t (and probably still don’t) know where individuals stand on Reformed Theology, etc. I am just posting a few thoughts.
I can see that I am out of my league here on theological issues. My little brain is spinning.
I don’t hate anyone here. Heck fire! I hardly know ye. And I suppose that the keystroke IS mightier than the sword if my posts were able to come off as rants. Pretty cool. I wonder if my rants will come off as matronly admonishments.
I spend most of my time on political issues and conversing/debating with atheists. Again, it’s interesting to me that I have the same disagreement with atheists on free will.
Specifically, and almost verbatim, the confident atheist (who is necessarily a materialist/naturalist) argues that to us, it appears as if we are making a choice. But, this is an illusion and it cannot be so because of the the bigger story at work. Calvinists differ from atheists on what that bigger story is. But, they both seem to agree (or so I am finding out) that our sense of free will or choice is merely an appearance of such, it’s not really.
This admission from RT is a nice accomodation. But, it plays a little too loose with reality for me. Either I have choice or I do not. If I am deceived about free will because God allows it to feel or seem that way to me, about what else does God allow me to be deceived? Why am I deceived about my own sense of choosing? And why does there have to be another grand story other than the obvious? Faith exercised by a hearing believer in no way diminishes God’s stature or nature.
To a Pentecostal or to many other believers, the Holy Spirit’s working in a person’s life in no way is seen to disrupt or control a person’s freedom to choose. I’ve always imagined the interaction to go like this:
Holy Spirit: Hey dude. I’d like for you to meet Jesus.
Dude: I’ve heard about him but I’ve never quite felt the need to meet him like I do now, this feels strange.
Holy Spirit: I know. Don’t worry about it. So what about it?
Dude: You bet. I still can’t explain what I’m feeling but I’m already beginning to see Jesus as . . .
or
Holy Spirit: Hey dude. I’d like for you to meet Jesus.
Dude: Huh?
Holy Spirit: Heaven to Dude! Wake up. Good Lord, what’s it gonna take for you to get it?
Dude: Nah. Don’t care to. Don’t want to.
Holy Spirit: Not a problem. Later. (Maybe when your eyes aren’t closed).
How is God’s power diminished in either scenario?
Well, I don’t have much of an interest in debating the Calvinism thing either. But, I mainly just wanted to note how weird it was that I see some of the same things debated with atheists. Even the God-of-the-OT thing – atheists always want me to be offended or embarassed by God’s demand that entire cultures be eradicated.
I don’t really have a problem with it. Then again, I support water-boarding.
RT, no personal offense. I hope you are happily out of SGM and enjoying life.
RT— I just gotta say, the sgm children/teens you teach are BLESSED to have you, and Christ in you, in their lives………..
Some Life Words for us all:
“Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good;
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.” PS118:1
(*lovingkindness is defined as ‘steadfast mercy’)
“It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.
It is better take refuge in the Lord, than to trust in princes.” PS118: 8-9
To the Defenders: We had a great time with your family yesterday! Our kids loved yours. I told Defender I’d put in a plug for his homemade Sangria. Very tasty. And Defended, your pepper jelly over cream cheese was awesome! Think I’ll add some to my birdseed today…hee-hee
Let me start with my usual disclaimer:
SMG IS NO MORE REFORMED THAN MY NEIGHBOR’S GOLDFISH.
Steve–I visited Noel’s linked site–definitely not our Noel, but hey! Not bad at all! Great picture! Welcome to SGMrefuge.
I must disagree slightly with some of the take that The Reformed Crowd (since you insist on seeing us a some sort of Soviet Bloc of the church–dang Francis Shaeffer and all those other morons) are the legalists in the American church.
For some time, I was in a Pentecostal community. That was the place where I learned women don’t wear pants, women don’t wear makeup, women don’t work outside the home, women don’t ever teach men or engage with them in spiritual discussions. Men don’t wear shorts (which, I must say, is a great idea in the case of many men), men don’t drink wine or beer, believers use the KJV only, etc. No rock music. No painted fingernails. Women and men don’t sit next to each other unless they are married. (Hey, wait a minute, that sounds a heck of alot like SGM!)
Sounds like legalism to me. I will therefore make this proclamation: all Pentecostal churches are filled and run by legalists.
Funny, found the same thing in an independent Baptist church later.
I know that certainly exists within some reformed churches.
Perhaps I have to redefine my definitions, and not paint with such a broad brush.
I worship in a free place, with passionate people who pour out their lives for the Saviour they love, in service, in worship, in missions, in giving, in love. When we’re not guarding the door against some slimeball wanting to run to Jesus, (we all take turns with that…who knows WHO might slip in if we don’t watch closely) we are busy tutoring the refugees in the complex next door and gathering food and furniture for their families who are fleeing here from Sudan. And I’ve heard that Emmanuel Baptist down the street is a marvelous place of freedom, as is the Episcopal church around the block. People love several Southern Baptist churches in town, (but you have to wear panty hose there, forget it, no way.)
Is it possible we are all speaking from our own experiences in the congregations in which we’ve worshiped?
Noel, no legitimate reformed church would say that SGM is in any way reformed. We’ve hashed this out endlessly on this blog.
What if I said I think they’re charismatic. After all, they receive “prophecies” at the mic, they dance in worship, they (many) speak in tongues, they jump up and down alot, they are led by an appointed pastor, and not by congregationally elected….whoops, now they just morphed into an episcopal model…they hold to apostles and a strictly delineated hierarchical polity, they have an approved list of books…whoops, they believe that God is sovereign in electing his people….just slid to the reformed side.
Noel, please forgive me if I misread your tone. I felt, as a believer, condemned by your comments. I see now I was wrong:
“Both atheism and Calvinism are well suited to the snobbish academic or haughty intellectual, even though both the academic and intellectual air may be just that – air.” (And if I replied that Pentecostalism is suited to backwater hicks and uneducated morons, you might agree, since that would be the flip side of your argument? Us academics and intellectuals at one trough, you the humble uneducated and unstudied at the other? Are you insane? All are welcome at the table of grace. The most simple grasp the truth of grace most simply. Pentecostals are uneducated? Steve, whaddya think?)
“The Calvinist cannot allow it because limitations on the number of the atoned cannot be violated by some free-wheeling nut job who thinks he can simply believe and enter in. “ Right–which is why we send out thousands of missionaries around the world…looking to guard the kingdom against the random nut job that might try to slip in. Your logic is laughable and fallacious. Perhaps some research is called for rather than ranting? Would you like to stack up the list of Pentecostal missionaries on the field right now and compare it to the number of missionaries who would call themselves reformed?
Whosoever believes in him is saved. Period. Why can’t we just agree to that and get to work, like the missionaries are doing from both sides of the discussion?
I extrapolate that I am the “astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed” from your Christopher H. comment? I’m sorry, are you delusional? Then, you make a blanket and snooty sounding reference to all those: ” inept and uninformed leaders who nonetheless have developed a mysterious air about them which naive followers have taken to indicate moral, spiritual and intellectual supremacy.”
I’m assuming you mean Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and Peter Popoff, right? No wait, those are simply the major Charismatic /Pentecostal morally bankrupt charletans who ripped off, and continue to do so, thousands of sycophantic followers.
Name the names, don’t try to squirm around them with some humilty-talk. Are you talking about CJ, or about Piper? About Emerson, or about Keller?
“As you can see, I probably couldn’t have summoned the required humility to confess the twin sins of choice in SGM – pride and self sufficiency. Perhaps this is why I am stuck in the barren wilderness.”
What the heck? Why the sarcasm? You might be under some illusion, my brother, that I am SGM? I’m not. I teach a slew of SGM kids and have become enraged by the spiritual abuse and oppression under which they live. I’m simply a Jesus follower, as are you, who rejoices to see a stream of my friends and students walking out into the light from the murky cloud that is SGM.
May I engage in conversation with you on your point 1. “It’s one thing for Christians to raise their eyebrows as their traditions are brought under scrutiny and they make the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality. “ I’m sorry, but I believe you are talking about me here? I hold to the reformed traditions, and don’t have to work too hard to get around something as straightforward as Romans 8 and 9–I just read the Word. I hope I am relieved from this pretension soon, and know you hope the same thing.
For example, I simply read Ephesians 1 and take it as truth: “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Or in 1 Cor. 1: 8He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
I see here a BRAIDED mystery: God predestines, God calls, I hear the mighty word of faith, I receive the Holy Spirit when I believe the gospel of my salvation.
From my point of view: free will.
From his point of view: irresistable grace–a God who has called and saved his people since the original mother-promise in the garden.
This causes me to worship in thankfulness, and to be burdened with the call to share the gospel with the world, to cast the net wide. How do I know for whom the Spirit calls? Why do the free will crowd pray for someone’s salvation, if the Holy Spirit is not involved in the work?
Logically, if you pray for someone’s salvation, you are invoking the work of the Holy Spirit, therefore admitting your winsome spiritual or theological arguments are not sufficient.
If the Holy Spirit must be involved in the saving work of faith and grace, (which you acknowledge when you pray for a loved one to come to faith) and he only shows up if you call on him to become involved in someone’s life, doesn’t that make him at your beck and call, so to speak? And mean as hell, besides, since he wants all to be saved, can do it himself, and chooses NOT TO?
I think you must be sad in this: you believe that it is the Lord’s will for everyone to be saved.
You believe he can work in anyone’s life to draw them to Christ, which is shown by your calling on him to do so in specific cases.
So, if he wants all to be saved, and can do it by working in their lives, why in the world isn’t everyone saved? Could it be because there is a bigger story at work? A story so magnificent and so terrifying that only the Universe-breathing God could possibly understand it?
Concerning “The Institutes of the Christian Religion.” However, we should recognize it for what it is – the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before which all too often has come to us as a “word from God” on Sunday morning.
Could you reference to me the written work you have done to push back the effects of the fall? As a snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believer, making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality, I would welcome the opportunity to read the work you have done in the 21st century, years, decades, centuries, after the reformation brought clarity to the church, to build up the church? I wonder if you stand on the shoulders of scholars of all persuasions, yet contribute little except vitriolic attacks?
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Do you not believe that if the church is here in 450 years, it will not look back to this year, our books, our teachings, and say, “This is good, this is ridiculous, almost had it right here, whoops, check this out?”
You seem as if you would have prefered that we remain chained to Rome, buying indulgences, locked away from the Word that saves, allowing a man to stand between us and God?
Why the fury over the notion of a God who has chosen his people from before time?
Why don’t you rail against the God in the OT? I never hear a peep about his revealed nature there. Did he change his nature? This would imply he was not perfected, not holy. Yet you are not infuriated that he commanded entire peoples to be wiped out, with no chance of salvation offered? Men, women and children killed? What kind of vile monster would do that?
Can’t we just shake hands, and agree that none of us has it right? I couldn’t give a flying Fig Newton that your theology is wrong, your view of God is wrong. Doesn’t bother me in the least. You confess Jesus as Saviour. That is the litmus test. God will work our theologies out by changing you, changing me, changing both of us, whatever. He is high and holy. And well able to deal with family squabbles.
Why then, the emotional raging I sense from your side of the aisle? Why all the hard work you do to either not address passages like Romans, Ephesians, etc.? I fully accept free will–because that is what it seems like on our side of the dusty mirror, and because we are urged in Scripture to place our faith in Jesus. I did so. But I believe, because I take the word plainly, that there is something else going on on the other clear side of the mirror that I simply don’t comprehend. I remember the calling in my heart. I remember the day I heard him. I could not sooner have denied that call than I could have flown. Nothing in the world seemed sweeter to me than Jesus, yet the week before I wouldn’t have given him the time of day.
Let’s talk more about this…on the other side. Won’t be as much fun, though, since we’ll be perfected and in complete agreement. Talking face to face is so much better than contributing to our carpal tunnel issues.
Peace, my brethren.
Canary,
You are a fine host. Fantastic fellowship and food.
Our kids love yours too. I’m glad they all met each other. (Friends for life I think.)
AND, great fun target shooting in the forest too!
I’d say “Refuge party II” was a success!
To the rest of the “Refugees” here:
Y’all come out to Colorado for fellowship anytime.
Defender,
My oldest daughter said the exact same thing: Friends for life! Wow!
RT – Thanks, that’s all I can say.
Canary and Defended, y’all hush yo moufs now. We are all gitting a bit jealous out here on the left coast. BFF’s and shooting and Sangrias?
Sounds like heaven, almost.
Guess we’re all stuck being BFF’s in heaven, arent’ we?
Defender,
You live up to your name. You have passion to defend the truth of the Gospel and God’s character. That’s what gets you all riled up.
RT,
We’ll all gather in heaven for our “Refuge” party someday. By the way, we Canarys can’t shoot straight. I’ve decided to stick with my dogs and a baseball bat if someone breaks into my house. Defended has quite an aim. So does Defender. We shot at Thumper (a stuffed animal). He was decimated. Then, I proceeded with Defended to walk back to our house and got lost! We walked for about an hour before I found my way again. Once again Defended, I am soooooo sorry. I’ll always remember it as our little adventure!
I’m totally jealous. I wanna shoot a thumper with some buds from refuge.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
“The Murder of Thumper” (sequel to “Bambi’s Mom Gets Bumped Off”) left the poor thing only worth throwing away. The usual suspects are being rounded up. We do, however, have the Arangatang from Jungle Book who is going to be the next victim. If you and Carole get tired of the heat where you are at, you have friends in CO who will meet you at the airport and give you a really fun vacation. Got those guns cleaned yet, Defender?
And who is saying he was tortured by God?
Jesus ran to the cross, and climbed on it, a Hero, for his people. (side note from a lit teacher: Ever read “Dream of the Rood?” Written a zillion years ago, and the first half of it is some of the most profound theology ever.)
But make no mistake, ”he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.”
Is the heart of this that your sin is not so grievous that it deserves a punishment…which is why no one had to take yours?
You don’t need to work so hard to parse scripture–a child can understand the glorious Word of God.
RT asked
Question: You believe that a man like Calvin, who poured out his life to hold the door so that the Bride of Christ could escape the bonds of the Roman church, should be likened to “the 16th century version of too much pizza the night before.“ Are you insane? There is nothing true, nothing of value, in Institutes? So the finished work of Christ, grace alone, faith…these are pizza-driven fantasies? What, then, do you believe?
Me again: I believe in the finished work of Christ. I believe in his Grace. I do not believe in “Limited Atonement.” But I was hoping that you would keep quoting some other Scriptures that talked about the how God had predestined and chosen people for eternal separation from Him, how he had determined before time particular individuals, millions of them perhaps, to be lost and not saved. I’m lazy – don’t really want to look it up for myself. A little help please.
And I believe that I am blessed not to have been in Calvin’s religous community where I would, no doubt, have been “chosen” to be burned at the stake by Calvin himself.
You keep asking if I am insane. Do you know me? Has my wife been talking to you? Unless you are enraged and really steamed, and trying to insult me, I don’t really understand the repetition. Peace bro/sis. In the words of Hillary Clinton, “let’s all take a breath.” I’m sure Oprah would be pleased as well.
Dang it!!! Those moronic translation teams need to check Strong’s more often!
They were running off a more sophisticated translation, meaning;
daka’ – to bruise
to crumble; transitively, to bruise — beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
But you’re right–hidden in the middle of the word “daka” IS the word humble. But its meaning is an active verb that one does to another, not that one does to oneself.
NIV: Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
NASB: But the LORD was pleased, to crush Him, putting Him to grief;
Amplified: Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief and made Him sick
King James: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
English Standard Version: Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;he has put him to grief;
NKJV: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief
ASV: Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief
Norwegian 1930: (I’m Norwegian, believe me, it says the same thing): Men det behaget Herren å knuse ham, han slo ham med sykdom
My brother, I’m not the one who barged into the blog calling many of us here “snobbish academic, haughty intellectual, astoundingly inept and painfully uninformed believers (who are) making the difficult journey from religious pretension to reality,
So don’t go all limp and “I’m hip and jiggy wid it and too cool to refute specific topics” on me, please.
Romans 9 does. You refuse to engage in conversation about the two chapters I put into play. “I’m lazy – don’t really want to look it up for myself” isn’t good enough.
You blew onto this blog with a general nod in the direction of SGM (I suspect you know nothing about them), and presented yourself as a mature believer who is able to handle the word of truth…I addressed your comments with a long response which you didn’t read (since you wished me well on my exit from SGM, and I clearly stated my interest in SGM is as a teacher of SGM kids.)
I asked your opinion on two chapters. Now you’re too lazy to look them up? (your own words, not mine.) I even threw in 1 Corinthians and Ephesians so that you could correct me. Then I asked why you have no concern that in the OT, he regularly destroyed entire nations without even allowing them to convert to Judaism. You don’t address that.
I am happy to let it go, to finish our discussion over a nice vintage in the new earth. You’re the one who keeps coming back for a last dismissive word.
You promised to set me straight on the Romans passages. I await your correction.
Jim, you quoted Isaiah when he said,
”10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.”
So let’s look carefully at that.
First of all, the word “yet.” Now “yet” comes from the root “Yeti,” which is a huge snow beast in Mongolia or somewhere like that. So that means that the first sentence is bunk or maybe it is the Yeti that catches it from the Lord.
Second, as you know, Jesus never had offspring, so obviously the second clause just means that he died, but not in the Spring. He died “offspring,” like “off-season at Macy’s.” You know: at Easter.
Moving on–”out of the anguish of his soul,” means, obviously, that his soul was never in the anguish…it was plumb “out” of the anguish.
The middle part is patently self-explanatory.
Finally, it ends with “he shall bear their iniquities.” Now any fool can see this is simply the prophet referring back to the original Yeti comment to wrap up his argument.
Ta-da.
Oh, well said, Defender! I’ll tweet to that!
Anyone know how the family at Metro Life is doing? Is anything getting straightened out?
I have been wondering the same thing. Anyone from MLC care to comment???
Not that it’s any of my business, but trust me Noel, as a history student I can tell you that Calvin didn’t choose for anyone to be burned. It does seem as if he tacitly consented for one person to be put to death, whatever that means. (Geneva didn’t burn anyone in those days, not even heretics. ) It’s been researched and everything. I’m not trying to be arrogant at all (I certainly don’t want to be femaled dog slapped by my boy Defender.) I’m not even really trying to convince you of any theological point. Calvinistic/Arminian or Calvinistic/semi-pelagian debates, whichever one this particular debate is, rarely end in converts. I’m just letting you know that that particular argument probably shouldn’t be one of your bullet points.
Lawrence,
You crack me up!
No BS for you.
I too am desperately jealous of Canary’s Thumper thumping.
I thought pastoral life was often a no win situation and now I have been refreshed and renewed in gratitude to catch a glimpse into the life of a blog host who tolerantly allows random theological opinions to be tossed into the ring and freely beaten to a mushy pulp, beyond any possible or useful recognition.
I am consistently flummoxed and bemused by how few people actually or accurately understand “reformed”/”Calvinistic”/Doctrines of Grace theology (opponents and proponents alike).
Jim – your patience, endurance, restraint, or (quite possibly) admirable indifference are stunning to behold and not lost on this observer.
Oh, and, “The pigs are walking! The Pigs are walking!” That’s for the excellent Jiggler who deftly alludes to one of the most allude-able books ever written.
Cal-vs-Arm: News alert: We aren’t going to resolve that one, newbies that are kicking the hornet’s nest.
Burning Geneva? Are you kidding me.
Oh, man, my spidey senses are being triggered……
Sniffing the air…….
I smell……a……TROLL.
Give me a gold star, I am so proud of myself.
Now, little trolls, reform yourselves (pun intended) or go away!!!!
I hope I’m not the only right brained person who zoned out waaaaaaaay back.
Sometimes I think people need to go get a good breakfast before they post – or get their blood sugar regulated, go outside for a walk, hold a baby and giggle a little — step back and see the beauty of the forest, and take a deep breath of God’s goodness.
I’m off to do just that.
Where the heck is PK is what I’ve been thinking.
Can I vent?
Thank you!
Please don’t respond to this with “you’re doing a great job”. Don’t ask me why, just please…
I really need to know what God wants me to do with this blog. I know that some sgm pastors who were abusive have changed their ways. I’m not going to judge their hearts, and I’m choosing to believe that God used whatever means He chose to effect their hearts.
Is it reform? In a sense, yes. Less sheep are being beaten.
Do I hope for reform in sgm? No. Not in the short term, as they are digging in their heels regarding pastoral authority.
So what do I do? I could post the “apostle” portion from T4G and dissect it, but to what end? It’ll change in 5 years.
I’ve been out of bullets for long time-I’ve said everything I have to say 100 times.
Do I continue to do what I’ve been doing, which is waiting for the next sgm train wreck, so refuge can fulfill it’s role as the sgm inquirer?
It’s beyond sick and tired-it’s what’s the point? Survivors is a great blog, and Kris and Guy do a great job.
These are the things I’m asking God.
If you guys could pray for Carole and I, that we would know what we are supposed to do, we’d really be grateful.
I’ll pray right now for you guys.
If it’s time to stop…it’s time to stop. Rest is good, and God’s call is even better.
Just because you’ve done a great job, which you have, doesn’t mean you are called to do the same freaking great job tomorrow or next Wednesday.
If you’re not called to do this, but keep doing it, you are taking up someone else’s space.
One of my kids asked me the other day why the shake-up in SGM around here. Man, is there a shake-up around here in “Wealth-hill,” Virginia.
I said the Holy Spirit.
He said, “but how?”
I said, “the faithfulness of the blogmasters and mistresses.”
He said, “that’s cool.”
Well done, good and faithful servant! Enter into your Father’s rest, one way or the other.
Pam – Ha! That was funny!
Jim, I can see how this is a difficult decision.
You’re weary of it all. That’s understandable. I don’t know what the right thing is but you will figure it out. Praying for you today. 
Jim,
From here it looks like you & Carole need a vacation in Colorado.
I little time in “God’s Country” to seek Him for your next “Marching orders”.
I just checked, Frontier has Orlando – Denver direct flights.
$219.70 round trip. Friday 13 Aug, return Monday 16 Aug.
Shall I click the “reserve” button??????
There is an Arangatang loose in the forest near Canary’s nest that needs your attention.
(I’ll provide the gun.)
Carole, bring a compass, I’ll provide a map. (In case Canary takes you on a “hike”.)
I love ya Canary, I couldn’t resist.
Defender–
Thanks for not bringing up the Sangria.
That would have pushed me (and the rest of us, probably) right over the edge of full-blown coveting.
Defender, that was funny! Maybe you guys can buy me a pretty compass for my birthday in November. Or I’ll start taking chalk with me to mark trees as we go. If it rains, I’m in trouble…p.s. your wife was a real trooper!
RT,
Excellent post at 12:40pm. Really good advice.
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
(see why I like that guy?) Canary you are priceless!
Jim, you and Carole are ALWAYS welcome for some fresh cool mountain air.
RT – you are just a few hours from our all-time favorite beach, if it helps even the coveting score.
THAT beach? Oh, now I’m jealous.
RT,
If I recall correctly where you are, Frontier has flights from Newport News, or Washington (DC). The DC route is Direct to Denver. (Best price $245.90 Round Trip.)
(Picture me waving a bottle of Sangria for you.)
Gotta hurry before school starts.
PK,
HEY! (Knock Knock (from the inside of your computer screen))
You there?
You & Irv get your wives and get Jim & Carole to come and meet us up here in CO.
(I’m coaxing RT too.)
We’ll get a Refuge party going one way or another.
Anybody else in?
C’mon Jim.
Give me a little smile. Ya know ya want to come.
We’ll talk about the future of the Refuge.
Maybe do a little “tag team” hosting.
You haven’t eaten good preserves til you’ve tried Defended’s homemade jam. Had the cherry yesterday – yummy! I won’t mention sangria (oops, darn…I just did).
Good advice, Peg. I’ll see you out there!
Taking note–I agree. We only know what we’re steeped in. I never knew grace until I hit the PCA. Many from the PCA never knew grace until the hit the Assemblies of God. Many AG found grace in the SBC. God is God. His gospel is pre-eminent. But don’t start attacking what you’ve only heard rumors about.
DB–pin it on. You get the gold star!
Jim–you are a great blog host…even if you are sick and tired of it.
PK–where the heck are ya, kid?
Gotta go watch the gate, now, it’s my turn to keep the ungodly pagans away from the altar of grace. (We reformed types have a huge matrix that assigns us to certain days to make sure no repentent broken sinner-type creeps in and flings himself on the mercy seat, don’t ya know. That’s probably where PK is right now–doing that Predestined Knight thing.)
Oops.
I forgot to select Round Trip on the schedules.
Those prices are a little more than I posted.
Still, Colorado (and Sangria) is calling.
(RT, you are getting sleepy, ….. sleeeepy. Go the the airport……)
Forget sleepy!!!
You just said the magic “full-scale panic” words.
SCHOOL. ARGH!
Othello, here I come. You too, Algebra.
If this is your favorite beach area, maybe y’all should come down off the mountain and come here. Cheaper into Richmond than Denver….and lots of SGMish people around here. One we could even lure up from her SC digs, right BH?
Actually, you’ve inspired me. I’ve got a big house party at the Rivah this weekend.
Sangria is on the menu!!
Hello all,
Mrs. PK here. Although I really hate to answer for my hubs, I may take a stab at it this time. He’s still here, still kickin’. Still fighting for Disability. Still awaiting more surgery. Still going to school. Still fighting for truth, justice, and….the Lord’s way.
And if he didn’t have enough to do, now I’ve roped him into helping me in my latest let’s-try-this-to-make-some-extra-money scheme: selling jewelry. He doesn’t actually do any selling per se, but I drag him along to some of the weekend public events and such where I try to hawk my wares. He’s mostly there for moral support. Oh and booth assembly, transportation and general maintenance of all my accoutrements. But mostly: security detail. He says he enjoys doing this and hanging out with me, but I’m sure he’d rather be out with his brothers shooting something in the desert. Or criminally-profiling bad guys. Or writing his book.
He’s still carrying the fire (if you’ve seen the movie THE ROAD you’ll get this; if not, go rent the movie & enjoy).
After he gave an apparently impassioned verbal presentation in one of his classes (subject was…? the death penalty I think), his teacher held him over after class and begged him to consider going to law school. Not necessarily to become a lawyer, but to open up a wider range of employment opportunities for him…a topic of prayer for our household now. [ Heck, we’d just be pleased to have two incomes again! ]
One of our friends on Facebook broached the topic of a possible mosque being built near 9-11 Ground Zero site, and PK took a turn at the ultra-liberals in that debate. Now he has a new batch of adoring fans on FB…and so it goes. Still carrying the fire.
But, I know he’s tired. We both are (Jim & Carole, we understand…!). He says we need a vacation. To which I answer, I’m going to have to sell a whole lot more earrings…!
Lovingly,
P.D.
protestantdame at gmail dot com
Jim,
Personally I think “Refuge” has served a tremendous purpose and has brought a magnifying glass to a ministry that desperately needed some outside “light” and influence. There definately has been change at SGM. Not complete, not across the board, but from where I sit , headed in the right direction. I am sure there are still many issues that still need to be resolved, and I KNOW that there are many people who are still hurt and are struggling, but possibly it’s time to “dim the lights” of Refuge for a season.
To your point, you probably need some time away from the board. Refuge helped me realize I wasn’t nuts about what I was experiencing. Refuge helped point me back to the Lord. But after awhile, I needed to get away from Refuge to a) begin to forgive those that hurt me b) to look at how I hadn’t helped the situation from a godly perspective and c) to just move on in my life.
I still stop by Refuge every so often to see if there are any volcanos erupting in SGM land. Maybe you can keep the site open (as a reminder to SGM that its still here and to warn those to look out for any reemergance of issues), but stop allowing any on-going postings . People could still email you with stories but maybe you only post those that people need to know about. Update the site once a week (if necessary) instead of being tied to it all of the time. If things get out of hand then reopen it to how it operates today.
I think SGMRefuge has served a great and godly purpose. It’s yours to do with it what you wish. For me though, my two cents is to make it a static site and only update it as you see fit.
Mike
I have a question: WHO decides, within a congregation or even within SGM whether or not change occurs? Or how much? From what I seem to understand within metro, danny is sorry and Benny isn’t. Or at least B is silent, if not sorry. Or does Dan speak for Ben?
And what of other places? how much, exactly, is changed in the polity?
And is it possible for change to happen within that top-down structure? Really?
If so what kind?
I hear of hints, such as Mike’s hints. Or declarations: There definately has been change at SGM. (sic)
Ok, Mike…or anyone,…exactly WHAT has changed? Specifically? How?
When was said change announced? How was it addressed? How was the error that is (supposedly) no longer happening addressed?
I hope someone, somewhere will be specific. I’m really and truly asking.
It’s always helpful when believers are able to more clearly see Christ, for eyes to be opened to the indescribable grace of God in Him.
I believe that when the message becomes clear, issues (church polity and practice and any abuse that results, etc) also become clear. Likewise, until the gospel itself becomes clear to us, any number of issues will function as clouds that obscure the sun.
If we see ourselves as the habitation of “indwelling sin” we will be hard pressed not to lean toward some form of behavior modification aka “discipleship.” This “indwelling sin” cannot be reconciled to a holy God and this opens the door to a great many misunderstandings about the message.
If Christ was “made sin” for us and if the offense (sin/Christ) was nailed to the tree and if Jesus announced “it is finished” then all these programs of sin management, whether administered abusively or tenderly, is a testimony against Christ – Paul would say “go ahead and emasculate yourselves” for Christ will be of no benefit to you if you submit again to the Law.
I like what an old buddy, Scotty Todd (now face to face with Christ), used to say. “Billy Graham has taught us that Christ died FOR us. And this is wonderful news. But, the gospel is that Christ died AS us. And this is incredible LIFE.”
There are very few ways a believer can be condemned. He is no longer condemned by sin for it has no power over him. He is no longer condemned by God. He is no longer condemned or “convicted” by the Holy Spirit for sin (for the Holy Spirit only convicts/convinces the world of sin and even then only the specific sin of not believing on the Son). One of the only ways I know (maybe the only way) for a believer to be condemned (albeit it not by God) is to not discern the Lord’s Body in relation to eating the Lord’s Supper. (I used to think the unworthiness had to do with unconfessed sin. I never could get that just right). But, the focus of the mind during the Lord’s Supper is not upon sin but upon rightly discerning the Lord’s Body (in context it speaks of the Lord’s Body as He was being crucified).
Until we see His body, specifically what was going on in His body at the crucifixion – that we died with Him and by that death have passed through judgment into LIFE, we take condemnation into ourselves by eating the Lord’s Supper; because, the only other way to understand the Lord’s Supper (wrongly I think) would be to see it as rehearsing all over again the offering up of a sacrifice for sin or as Protestants might understand it, keeping short accounts with God through confession and repentance of sins. No wonder so many Christians feel condemned. This sense of condemnation is the psychological permission an abuser needs to control us.
If we accept the premise of “indwelling sin,” I see no way out of the cycle.
Jim,
The Refuge has played a tremendous part in shining the light of truth on a very dark and abusive organization. Until that organization comes clean, repents, and changes direction, there will be a continued need for a forum such as this.
The first goal of any abusive regime is to stifle dissent, and I’m sure SGM would like nothing better than to silence the Refuge and its many voices of freedom.
In addition to this forum for dissent, the healing and ministry that goes on here is of value beyond measure.
I hope you will continue the work you have so selflessly undertaken here until all the abuse and faulty doctrine within SGM has been abolished.
No Blog Left Behind
IMO, if it matters, I think Defender would make a great moderator/co-moderator. There are lots of hurting people coming out every week from sgm, I hope that the Refuge will be there for them. It’s just not the same as a static site.
Quizzler, I’m with you. I think that if this voice went silent the “change” I keep hearing about would stop for sure.
Jim, I’m praying for you and Carole. May God lead you, make your path clear and straight. He alone knows but He is faithful and will be found by you, I’m sure.
Thanks, Ellie…Defender has tons of compassion for those who are hurting. That’s for sure. But Jim’s unique position of having inside connections is something Defender hasn’t been allowed to maintain, since he was sent packing….or Shanked, as we say. So there would be no inside info or perspective.
Now, on the other hand Irv……
;o)
canary
August 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Anyone know how the family at Metro Life is doing? Is anything getting straightened out?
No….. 2 other family units left last week. The fall out continues. One family 20 plus years, one family 15 plus years. Close friend “involved” says it looks like a morgue when the kids leave for children ministry. Repentance and change had yet to have a full effect at MLC. People are still slowly leaving. The cool thing < if you can consider this a good thing> God is taking those gifted folks and planting them in churches that want and need and WILL USE those gifts. To God be the Glory. Man can not hold back the hand of the Lord. He will use his people!!!!!!!!!! So many gifted people were passed over for so many years!
WOW! I have been reading over the posts; you guys really know how to debate an issue with lots of passion and care though. I didn’t know whether to jump in or hide…(just kiddin)
Needin hope
Dear Jim,
I am praying for you and Carole to hear God’s will clearly for the blog and your participation in it. I am sure that no one here wants you out of God’s will. You have played a huge role in exposing evil within SGM and for that I will always be grateful to you and Carole!
As far as change…..I continually hear that SG Chesapeake is a different place now but then I hear from others who are still in that really, nothing has changed. I had hoped that things were really different there but then I hear Brett’s message on the prodigal and those who have left and those who have left and returned, I realized, NO things are not different. The arrogance and judgmentalism are still alive and thriving within those walls. Without refuge and survivors, it may only be a matter of time before the abuse and control are in full blown overdrive once again. However, this is not our call.
This battle belongs to the Lord, not to one person and not to one blog.
God chooses those whom He wishes to be His generals, His armorbearers, and His warriors. We must first and foremost get our marching orders from God. If He says continue fighting then we must obey. If He says I want you to rest now, then we must obey.
This has been such a huge battle for many of us and sadly one that is not over. The sad truth is that it may never be over … but we must each one seek the Lord for His orders and His timing. I absolutely belief He wants us each one to move forward in all that He has for us. He does not want us held in bondage by the SGM machine, either inside the machine or outside. For those of us out, He has brought a wonderful deliverance and has set us free from SGM so that we might live in the fullness of Jesus Christ and fulfill the wonderful destinies that He has for each of us. If managing this blog or even participating in the blog holds us under the bondage of SGM then I believe that God would say that we are to move on for He has set us free for LIBERTY and LIFE!
Therefore Jim I pray that you and Carole go forth in peace – whether you continue with the blog or whether you go. I pray that you hear God’s voice clearly and that He gives you clarity and direction for the plans and purposes He has for your life.
With greatest affection,
Fred
Jim and Carole
I hope you both hear from the Lord on the direction you should take for the blog.
I will echo what others have said. I think there is a need for blogs like this and Survivors. I am sure that many SGM Leaders are a lot more reluctant to do questionable actions when they know there is a risk of their actions being shared on this blog and the Survivors blog. These blogs keep the leadership in check to some degree. Hopefully this blog and others will continue to do that.
One thing valuable you have Jim is your contacts. Maybe you could still do that part and maybe even write postings but let someone else moderate the blog?
Unfortunately these blogs haven’t produced IMO soul searching and seeking God on the part of SGM Leaders such as their going to God and asking what changes God might want them to make in their organization. The SGM Leaders almost seem obstinate like where Jesus said that if the miracles He did happened in Gentile Cities they would have repented in “sackcloth and ashes.” As one hears of long time members leaving and contributions being down one would think there would be more soul searching and seeking God but sadly that doesn’t seem to be happening.
One may hear of individual cases where admittance of wrongs and some reconciliation happening but again one doesn’t hear of them asking what is the root that would cause some of the abuse mention to happen.
What can I say about Refuge? At the risk of being a broken record, telling the same facts over again, please indulge me to reiterate my story briefly. 21 years ago, when my beautiful grown daughters were babies and toddlers, we were devastated by our PDI experience. Our little family was torn away from those who had promised to live the “shared life” we were taught about in foundations classes. Our understanding of the grace of God was compromised and shaken to its roots. We struggled, we ached, we were lonely for YEARS. We were afraid. Afraid they were right and we were opposing God by opposing their right doctrine. It was a lonely, miserable time. But our God is faithful and slowly, painstakingly, He picked us up out of our sackcloth and ashes, cleaned us, healed us, and got us back on His path. I will never forget it. Ever.
Decades went by with family members still involved with PDI/SGM. We were necessarily estranged from them in some measure because SGM requires that of its people. So even though we were free, healed and enjoying the life of grace and intimacy that God intended, more years were going by with SGM robbing us of precious time with our extended family. Then the inevitable happened, my family saw the SGM error at last, and all have left the building for good.
During my extended family’s trauma days with SGM, I found the blogs. I met these dear, dear folks who know EXACTLY what I am talking about when I share my experiences. And I understand them as well. I saw that the SGM errors were not limited to MLC, but were nationwide and bore striking resemblences to one another. And more importantly, I saw a chance for the Lord’s Redemption, a way He could take our locust years and use what we learned there to lend a hand to others curently in the same boat. How wonderful! How thankful I am!
It has been a particular blessing to interact with Jim and Carole here. You have become very dear to me. I am so glad you are both not only well and whole and feeling free to move forward, but also have been in the unique position to make inroads with SGM leadership. I will be praying for God’s Will to be clear to you and for peace. Whatever the decision, my response is the same. THANK YOU. WE LOVE YOU.
Jim,
If it wasn’t for this blog and the wonderful friends I’ve made on the blog, I would be on a therapist’s couch. I have no friends left from 20+ years in sgm. When we were thinking of leaving, I kept second guessing myself in moments of weakness. Your blog helped me to see the abuse and the hope from posters here. Could there be a way like Steve said and get a few who are on constantly that would be willing to give a hand? Is that not an option? What I mean is, I have a hard time giving over or delegating something that is my “baby”.
Just a suggestion.
Let me address my private relationship with some SGM pastors.
I have a close relationship with a sgm sr p. CJ is aware of this, and this man and I have worked together (him doing the work) in bringing reconciliation between some pastors and some ex members. He is not a fan of the blog, and is not a source of inside info that I receive. He is above reproach in this regard. Because of our working together, I’ve been privy to some inside stuff that will never be seen on this blog. For leaders in SGM to let me into their world for the sake of pursuing reconciliation is a huge risk on their part, as I have this little blog….
I would never betray that trust.
The inside stuff I get (and post) is because of the blog. There are some leaders in sgm who have given me info because they too want to see change.
I just want to ensure that there is no confusion, as these relationships fall into two different categories.
Lawrence, thanks for the word up on Calvin, Geneva and burning at the stake. You’re right inasmuch as Calvin’s actions in this regard should not be a MAJOR “bullet point.” We have enough of Calvin in Calvinism to resist. But, does one not at least take pause at the thought?
DB, I’m not sure if you think Lawrence or me to be a “troll.” I would only point out that I use my real name, you can google me or find me at http://www.TheMortgageInstitute.com (my business website) or at http://noelcookman.blogspot.com/ which comes up when you click on my name and soon at http://www.NoelCookman.com. I can, however, relate to your sense of pride upon discerning someone else’s tactic or motive on the internet. It is truly a remakable achievement.
Peace and Blessings my Friend.
And Gracie’s testimony . . . WOW. As a “newbie” I appreciate reading that. It’s incredible.
As a “newbie” I have to ask, does anyone think that this religious system (SGM being one of many expressions of it) can be reformed? I read comments about “things getting straightened out at XYZ or MLC.” And I think that there may be some tinkering around the edges. But, can a system that is built upon something other than the gospel be reformed?
I also notice that God hasn’t usually reformed things. Somewhere it describes Him as tearing down and building up. Is it usually we who have labored so hard to establish a thing who sense a need to keep it basically in tact with a little reforming here and there? In other words, is reformation something of our doing?
Noel,
Define reform.
Noel
One thing you might not realize about Lawrence is that he is an SGM Leader’s son (MLC). Realize he is sharing from that perspective. As I have guessed before, that perspective might include his wanting to protect the “family business.”
You are new to the blog and wanted to make sure you knew that.
Jim, I am thinking of reform in its technical sense rather than a theological definition. For one, I’m not a studied theologian so I’m not sure what varieties of understandings there might be out there.
I am not speaking of “reform” as it relates to “reformed theology.” I am speaking of it in terms of a general desire to change (reform) an institution so as to keep its basic foundations in tact yet change it, presumably for the better.
It’s somewhat related to a political sense of reform. Edmund Burke distinguished between change for the sake of change and change as reform so as not to transform the basic construction of a thing (constitution, in the political sense). Or as we heard B.O. (B. Obama) speak a few days before inauguration “We are a few days away from fundamentally transforming America.” The changes we see in our government these past 19 months are not engineered as a reformation (although they must appear as such under euphemistic slogans like “pursuing a ‘more perfect union’”). But, they are a disregard for the fundamentals of our constitutional government and the pursuit of an agenda to change or transform its fundamental character.
Reform, on the other hand seeks NOT to change the fundamental character of a thing but to simply change its adaptation to the current environment or the make adjustments that will still allow the current institution to move ahead with its general and initial goals.
Thus, the type of reforming that some of us might seek in our favored institutions (MLC, SGM, et al) is a tacit declaration that the fundamentals are sound but only the mechanisms need a little adjustment. I am proposing that our desire for reform may come from a sentimental or emotional attachment to our favored institutions. I am not trying to psychoanalyze in that I am not able to discern someone’s motives or even their frame of mind. But, I am focusing on the institution itself and its need for reformation, transformation or desertion.
I think I overused a few words here. Thanks for your patience.
Gracie, what a very heart-felt post! You have inspired many, I believe, especially with those who have family members still involved with SGM. You’ve given them hope that the Lord can deliver. Thank you for all you have done. I’m still praying for you, by the way!
Pam, I don’t know about everyone else, but I can see change in just the way you post, that our God has met you in the hard place and is walking beside you, that your faith has grown. I’m glad we met over this blog. What a gift!
Jim, what Gracie said. It was put a million times better than I can.
Ditto! And back at you, Canary!
agelessdebutante said:
No….. 2 other family units left last week. The fall out continues. One family 20 plus years, one family 15 plus years. Close friend “involved” says it looks like a morgue when the kids leave for children ministry. Repentance and change had yet to have a full effect at MLC. People are still slowly leaving. The cool thing < if you can consider this a good thing> God is taking those gifted folks and planting them in churches that want and need and WILL USE those gifts. To God be the Glory. Man can not hold back the hand of the Lord. He will use his people!!!!!!!!!! So many gifted people were passed over for so many years!
It is good to hear that some have found new places to worship and be used by the Lord. Are there many people who have left ML who aren’t able to move on as easily? People who leave but find it hard to trust again? Just wondering…
Jim,
We will be praying for you and Carole — that you will hear clearly what it is, that you are supposed to do in regards to sgm Refuge.
We join our voices with the crew– in thanking you for stepping out as you did (this all surely transpired into a much bigger dog than you ever expected!?!). Refuge has served as a trumpet of reporting and uncovering many of sgm leaderships’ harmful and destructive assaults on our Brethren. What they used to do in secret and manipulation now has the possibility of being announced over blogdom. Surely this fact must “be a means of help” to pastors whose bent is towards bullying,double-talking, and authoritative control.
As you said, they are digging in their heels in regards to pastoral authority etc….etc—
They is what they is………
Meanwhile, as ya’ll pray for Gods clear directions…….I also pray there will somehow continue to be a forum to report abuses and upheavals; and minister to the mauled, stunned, and broken sheep left in the wake of sgm. I know we join many on this site who are praying for you and Carole…for the Lords will in all of this…and for His Peace as you navigate……….
— Waters and Family
Hi Jim -
Will be giving you a call — I have been over the top busy with 18+ hours working the last 3 weeks. You and Carol have been on my heart. Sorry I have been so bad with communication. I have dialed your number several times only to be pre-empted with another call.
My love to you and Carol –
Irv
Jim — when it comes to the blog, you gotta do what you gotta do. My two cents: The upcoming weeks and months are likely to see more and more people who need Refuge, so I encourage you to keep things going. Personally, I’d like to see us keep the main thing the main thing, and not keep going off into position papers that fall into the chicken/egg debate category. It’s my sense that the recent contention is discouraging to you — it is to many of us, I suspect. But that’s only a small part of the big picture here. “Do not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season you will reap if you faint not.” (loosely quoted.)
Ageless, Canary,
I join you in celebrating that God’s people are being used by God as they disperse into another part of the Body! What a joy it is to see yourself as a valuable, appreciated part of those who are free to minister to others with the gifts GOD has given! I should also think this use of service is a balm of peace to those who have left after trying to stay in ML for so, so many years.
canary
August 2nd, 2010 at 10:34 pm
Anyone know how the family at Metro Life is doing? Is anything getting straightened out? AND “It is good to hear that some have found new places to worship and be used by the Lord. Are there many people who have left ML who aren’t able to move on as easily? People who leave but find it hard to trust again? Just wondering…”
Canary, As of this point, in the last year close to 25 family units (Couples with kids, or adult singles) have left Metro. A majority of those leaving were members of 15 years or longer. From a long standing member with many contacts in the church, I was told last week that they know of at least another 25 families that are “on the fence” waiting to see how Mike N. is treated, and if the only 2 remaining pastors, Danny and Benny, are truly going to carry out their promises to be transparent and open. (On a side note, quoting Danny Jones – “we will be walking M through a season of evaluation and discipline. It will be a time that is motivated by a desire to posture Mike N. to humbly receive all the Lord has for him.” I wonder since that day how often Danny and Benny have met with Mike and his wife to help them walk through this “season of evaluation and discipline.”? You don’t want to hear my guess, because I know how hard it is for a leopard to change spots – or is that a tiger stripes, and since there wasn’t a lot of reaching out between the team before, why will it change now?)
Ageless Debutante was mistaken saying “2 other family units left last week”.
There were a total of 8 family units that left in the last few weeks (add those to the previous 25). It appears that the exodus continues and leaderships only response is “Metro is not the church for everyone” and says “buh-bye” as long standing members depart. This does not appear to bother leadership, since the remaining members will not challenge them, and they will have a church filled with “Yes Men” (and women).
I mourn for Metro and wonder what happened to the church I left after 20 years.
Oh Nauseated, that must be so painful to watch.
Nauseated, We sure know the sense of mourning you describe. It really is a deep sadness…we also experienced this after leaving sgm after 19 years…and still do to some degree..and I think that would be because we love our Brothers and Sisters….and cringe to see them under the spell of sgm leadership. We are saddened to see pastors whom we have known for years—and young men who have become pastors–turn into cj mini-me’s who learn to respond the sgm-robotic religous speak. (Not all, but some)
On the other hand——-this is, in the big picture sort of way—encouraging—because God IS shaking and purifying HIS Church……..There is a call back to our first love, Jesus Christ and to behold our God. We cannot fully enter into this if first we adhere to the voice and edicts of man.
I am gladdened to hear that more families have left Metro–not out of rancor but because they are watching for fruit and are fleeing the counterfeit. As the chorus of a song goes:
“Run to Jesus………and Live….” I pray you who have left are able to gather together and minister to one another through the love of Holy Spirit — He knows the wounds,the disappointments, the strongholds—Be encouraged— it is a process —but He is able to cause us all to overcome for His Glory!
RT and GD have reported there is a family meeting coming up in mid August in Kingsway, a VA church (pastored by GE). We wonder if GE will first repent to the “3 Couples” he slandered at his kangaroo court in Chesapeake 2 years ago. Will he repent of his lies??? If not, it is difficult to believe and receive whatever he might be speaking to his congregants.
Kingsway is an ill church….we pray for Gods deliverance and redemption for Gods people there.
Because sgm ministries chooses to live by their own polity and pastoral authoritarianism, (while in the last year apologizing for abusive actions and investigating reported abuses),
there will continue to be upheavals. From what we have seen—they are the same ‘ol horse— just another color. Appearance of righteousness is so very important to them.
Our family members in Colorado were literally lied to by the pastors in a church “restoration” declaration. Our family member asked to set the record straight so the people wouldnot believe lies. Nope– not allowed. Illusion and control of facts is much more important to sgm. Sadly, the congregants can come to a place where it is more comfortable and familiar to believe their ‘leaders’ than to seek Gods Truth. Dangerous.
So——- we continue to watch…and pray..and be prepared to speak the Truth and minister to the broken that the Lord brings across our path…..AND continue going forward in our lives…………love remembering Jesus is our Shepherd–that HE leads us beside cool and fresh waters….and there we can hear His Voice and direction for our paths……even in the desert He is our shade (PS 91).
Praying for all you posters today while I hitch up the wagon for a trip into town……..
Our eyes on Jesus, the Living Word, the Resurrection and the Life….as He is pointing us to ‘Behold—- our God!’
Waters wrote: RT and GD have reported there is a family meeting coming up in mid August in Kingsway, a VA church (pastored by GE). We wonder if GE will first repent to the “3 Couples” he slandered at his kangaroo court in Chesapeake 2 years ago. Will he repent of his lies???
Me: Won’t happen – he doesn’t believe he did anything wrong. Plus, sgm mojo is to never admit REAL wrong doing. Just admit “fluffy” stuff
“There were a total of 8 family units that left in the last few weeks (add those to the previous 25). ”
In terms of absolute numbers, how many people is this who have left and what was the total membership of MLC before the departures began?
Hey y’all!
The meeting at Kingsway on the 15th is really going to address an issue of abuse from years ago, not the Chesapeake stuff, I believe.
But who knows?
Let’s pray.
Nauseated,
Thanks. That sure is a lot of people to leave one church. Such old timers, too. They will definitely have a harder time processing it all. My advice would be to seek Jesus, spend much time in His presence…He will help His people keep what is good and throw out what is bad as far as doctrine and teachings are concerned. It was so confusing for a while after we Canary’s left PDI – what was really truth? But the Lord is faithful to walk us all through this – just give it time. There is great joy in finding your freedom in Christ!
I wonder what kind of financial effect this amount of people leaving has on ML’s budget. Hard to keep an SGM church going when so many tithes are going elsewhere. I also wonder, do leaders of ML act as though everything is fine, even though so many have left? I don’t glory in the fact that saints have had to leave. I’m sorry it seems to be “business as usual”. I feel for those who have had to move on. It is very painful. May they all find their refuge in the Lord. “The name of the Lord is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe!”
Another weird SGM practice is to make an announcement of a ‘Family meeting’, but be secretive and avoid giving out any information. It just leads to a bunch of speculation and gossip.
Drama. It makes it all seems very important, and makes the sheeple think that they have something to do with something at their local church, other than just coming in and hearing GE spiel on and on.
But God is God, and jealous for his people. He will redeem.
Oh my. My heart is so heavy. Nauseated I’m so sorry for you as you watch the hemorrhaging, YET – I wonder, is this an answer to our prayers? I know that it took a near-death experience in so. CO for SGM to step in and remove Keith and try to resuscitate a dying church. So could this bring a financial result they cannot deny? Obviously they have “gone to the mattresses” as far as their authoritarian stance is concerned, while trying to put a sheeps wool covering on it.
Waters, I didn’t realize you had family members out here and the idea of lies being concealed – well, it’s not the first time I’ve heard of it – I was told that whatever I heard from a dear abused friend was lies from the sr. pastor of the southern church. I was shocked and appalled at the time – right up until I was accused with no basis, of course.
But anyway, Waters, I was struck with the pain of your relatives all over again in your sad post. I’m so very sorry for you, and for whomever has had to carry this betrayal.
And……as you said, our First Love – our ONLY love can be, must be Jesus himself !!! To Him be all glory, praise and honor!
(Philippians 4:8)
RT said..”the meeting on the 15th is really going to address an issue of abuse from years ago.” hmmmm….. I wonder which one they picked…….and how will GE present it??
Will he confess his on-going lack of discernment and responsibility (very critical in caring for/shepherding/eldering, Gods people) ?? Lord, let there be Light…for Truth and Redemption.
P.S.— No detail, please on situations that need discretion—just if GE will take pastoral responsibility.
Walking Wounded,
Your pic is so apt. That is how I pictured myself after leaving PDI.
Waters,
The issue to be presented concerns a “de-gifting” that occurred almost 10 years ago. There will be a question and answer session, where GE will answer questions. The man who is in the epicenter of the issue will be speaking. I, personally, am hopeful for what the meeting will hold. I am praying for real change. I have faith that God will work mightily in this issue and that healing will spread through our church and through SGM as a whole.
Now, before you all begin to think I am a plant. I will let you all know that I (and some of my friends and family) have been hurt by practices at my church and by things the pastors have done and said, BUT we are (mostly) still attending because we know that God can do miraculous works in the hearts of all those involved in this mess. If God moves, we will stay and rejoice. If not, we will follow God to where He will lead us.
I don’t know any of you from the First Adam or the Last Adam but I beseech you by the mercies of God to bare with a few words from the perspective of “an outsider looking in”. Although I have never been a part of an SGM (or affilated) church, twenty years ago I was involved with a church which was very legalistic and authoritarian wherein the “man of God” had near pope-like status. When I finally left I felt for quite some time as if I was suffering from spiritual post traumatic stress disorder. It was painful and difficult because I was close to many of them but God granted me the courage to “launch out into the deep”, for which I am eternally grateful. Anyway, the SGM churches are not the only churches out there that leave a lot of “collateral damage” in their wake and therefore this “refuge” site can be a help to many like me that have not been directly affected by SGM.
Before I move on my more scriptural comments, I wanted to give those who are contemplating the departure from such a church the following words of wisdom: GET OUT NOW. The sooner the better. Believe me when I say that God is waiting for you with open arms. It will take time but the sooner you do it, the sooner your healing will come. Praise be to God! Also, if any of you have recently left and know friends that are on the fence, I strongly encourage you to advise them in the same manner: GET OUT NOW.
Anyway, in the 20/20 hindsight of my experience and in listening to all the chatter about SGM on this site, it appears to me as if the biggest problem in all of these abusive/authoratarian/legalistic churches (SGM, MLC, PDI, or any of 100 others) is simply this: The Founders and/or Leadership Do Not Believe in the Great Glad News of Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. All they can see is sin, especially in others. They walk by sight rather than by faith and thus they do not see their brothers and sisters in Christ as righteous beings. All they can see is the outward behaviour. Remember, man looks at the outward appearance but God looks at the heart. And if God in Christ put away your sins “as far as the east is from the west”, then He is not looking at your sin, He is looking at a son (I know, or a daughter). Paul said that all he desired to know amongst the saints was “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”. Although he knew well the “manifestations of the flesh, which are evident”, that was not his focus. Paul said to “set your mind on things above where Christ (and you yourself in Christ) are seated with Him in Heavenly places” my paraphrase). Peter and Paul (I don’t know about Mary) saw the saints (all Christians) as part of a Holy Nation, a Royal Priesthood, a people belonging to God. Paul said we should put on the “new man which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness”. Nowhere in the New Covenant are we as Christians admonished to look at our “indwelling sin”. In fact, the Scripture teaches that the strength of sin is the Law and that by applying the Law to ourselves in this manner, we only cause sin in the members of our body to manifest all the more. As Paul says, “Who shall deliver me from this body of death?” Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
It all boils down to this. As Christians we simply must believe what God says about us in accordance to the New Covenant. We are no longer in “the first man Adam, the natural”, we are in “the last Adam, the spiritual”. Therefore we should not submit to anyone (no, not even for an hour) unless they are ministering according to the Spirit of grace, for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.
I could go on and on about this topic as it really is the foundational difference between authentic Christianity and all other religions (including that works-righteousness religion that masquerades as Christianity). That difference is simply this: When Jesus Christ died, all those in Christ died with Him. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, all those in Christ rose with Him. And when Jesus Christ ascended and sat down in Heaven, so did all those in Him. Christians are totally new creations, not old creations made to act better. All other religions try to amend the old. God crucifies the old in Christ and then He makes all things new in His resurrection. The Good News is that your sins are gone and you are a brand new person, dead to sin and alive to God. I could write a book about all this but that has already been done so I simply encourage you to believe what God says about you in the scriptures and what He is saying to you now by His Spirit. His love for you is stronger than death and nothing can separate you from that love.
Thank you all who have shared the comfort that God has given you as you have made the journey out of the bondage (of SGM or the like) into the freedom which is ours in Christ. To some of you others, be careful not to fall into the trap of “wrangling over words”, remembering that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, and that you should make every effort to preserve the spirit of unity in the bond of peace.
Grace and Peace in Christ,
Chris Wiley
Defended
August 5th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Oh my. My heart is so heavy. Nauseated I’m so sorry for you as you watch the hemorrhaging, YET – I wonder, is this an answer to our prayers? I know that it took a near-death experience in so. CO for SGM to step in and remove Keith and try to resuscitate a dying church.
Defended – you must have been a part of the church with Flotsam and Jetsom- dear friends of ours that we sent from Orlando to Colorado. We heard the “Keith story” from them.
Took awhile, but they are connected to a solid church.
As far as those of our friends at Metro, in Orlando, there seems to be a different outcome than in many SGM churches.
A few are still looking for a new home, but most of us have gotten plugged into different churches around the city.
I do not believe in tossing the baby out with the bath water, and believe that there we many excellent years with solid teaching, that God is using by scattering us across the city. It is sad to see 20+ years of friendships dissolve, but Christ’s church will stand, and He is spreading us across the city in all sorts of churches and rather than being pew sitters, most of us are becoming actively involved.
For my wife and I, it is bittersweet. We still get together with the close friends we had for all those years, but God has us in a new season, ministering to many that are just getting involved with Christianity for the first time, and we are well equipped (something that I credit our Pastors in Metro) for works of service.
It could be so easy to never get involved again, and say “woe is me, I don’t want to get hurt again, so I’ll never be involved” , but I don’t want to give Satan any joy, so that isn’t going to happen. We will take the good that we learned and bring it with us. It wasn’t all bad, and to say it was, would be untrue.
The sadness comes in seeing what could have been if leadership had listened to all of the “Nathans” that came into the office over the last year, but instead, chose to stick to the company line, even if it meant losing close to 30 families. (From those still there, they say it is half empty – or half full, depending on your interpretation)
Hope,
Our prayers are with you and our brothers and sisters surrounding you. May God make you aware of His great love for you and may He do the same for those around you on that Sunday. Much grace to the people leading the meeting so that they be sensitive to God’s voice.
Blessings,
Stunned
Hope — thanks for your comment. The very words “family meeting” fill me with fear and trembling.
Do you know if the general subject matter of the upcoming meeting was announced to the congregation as a whole, or are most going into the meeting without a clue?
I’m glad that the man who has remained silent since the debacle will have his ‘day in court’. I’m glad they’ll have a Q and A session. And I hope that somebody will ask the degifted why the heck he stuck around.
Please, Refugers (not refugees!) — join in praying for this meeting. Thanks.
Hope, Thankyou for clarifying the meetings intent. Joining with Stunned and others to be praying for you there at Kingsway. Much discernment is needed in these “Family Meetings”. Holy Spirit has needed insight to put discerning and significant questions into the hearts of the people —– we pray Redemption that glorifies Jesus Christ (and not an institution or man) will come about.—
Amen! And I pray questions are addressed – not danced around or used for spin.
And I pray that MEN will RISE UP! Not be wooed in the sappy submission that so many have been conditioned in.
The problem is that one has to get away from the confines of SGM to be deprogrammed. When you are still inside, it is hard to see the mistakes being made. Even people who have left will need time to understand what was good and what was not. So, those still in SGM might protest at certain problems they see but will ultimately stand by their leaders, unless they get away long enough to see what has really been happening. I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches.
“I get a better view of a tree when I’m flying over it than I do when I sit in its branches. ”
I love you Canary.
You make me laugh.
yeah, cuz up close, all those trees look alike!! ;o)
Love you, too, Defenders!
Chris Wiley – that was awesome. It made me remember that I was “healed” from hurt and abuse in the late 1990′s mostly by seeing this message of the gospel – that our sins are no longer counted against us, that Christ died AS us not just FOR us, that the lustful (and other) thoughts I had were not products of the “old man” but of my flesh and my failures were not a testament against my righteousness because my righteousness was established IN CHRIST ALONE and that I was IN HIM.
I want to add that I was not abused nearly to the extent that I have seen on this forum. And the little I know about the conduct and treatment at MLC, SGM, et al, I was definitely in the “minor leagues” when it comes to mistreatment. I’m willing to stipulate that I mistreated others as much as I was mistreated by others. I’m grateful just to have lots of friends from those days. And my relationship with my former boss/”pastor” is wonderful.
But, looking back, I see the key to the whole thing – Fortunately, I heard messages by James Barron on cassette. Russ and Hazel Parker and Mike and Rocky Beene had introduced me to the teachings. Mike and Rocky ministered to us in our home in Raleigh, NC. I resisted James’ teaching for over a year but kept listening. I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
Seriously Chris, the whole message came crashing in on me one day and it was like the sun shone for the first time. The more I listened and learned, the more I realized that if there ever was a panacea, this was it. Then I recalled scripture verses in a different light – Paul saying that He wanted to only know Christ and Him crucified. The real gospel IS a panacea. It changes everything – even and especially our view of the church and how we are treated in the church.
I clearly remember hearing some of the saints at Tree of Life (we spent a year in Orlando) speak to a fellow believer who had been hurt and wanted to talk about a leader in another church – “Remember that God loves each one of His creatures and those who believe in His Son are just as righteous as you and I are and just as righteous as Christ Himself is. We have no condemnation for any one. They don’t have to believe exactly as we do. They don’t have to see the world as we do. If they believe in Christ – they are righteous in Him. Danny Jones stands as righteous as Christ Himself and as you and I stand.” [I pick on Danny because I know him but have had no conflict or interaction with him. I just think of him as having this big contagious smile from back in 1980. And the fact that he out-married himself.]
This is what frees us to speak the truth to one another – we can be “matter-of-fact” about the whole abuse-within-SGM thing because we are speaking in an environment of grace. We can say “this is bad treatment of the saints” without worrying that we are in sin. Because, our statements are not judgments of righteousness or sin. They are the “truth in love.” And, we have not the slightest judgment for abusers.
Chris, I think you are dead on (bad term I guess) about seeing the message. It will absolutely change everything and set us free from bondage. It will set us free from feeling guilty about leaving a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not even attending a church. It will set us free from feeling guilty about not performing the outlined program.
In a church where I served for several years, we STRONGLY encouraged people to arise early and have “Prime Time” with God every day. Not even the leaders (except those who were naturally early-risers) could conform but we could all pretend and avoid exposure. But, the folks labored under this pressure and many couldn’t bear up under it. They couldn’t “feel” spiritually vital enough to measure up to this false standard we were holding forth. And so many just wandered away. Right now, that church has “grown” from about 1,100 people at its peak to less than 500. It’s like a preacher told my dad (an overseer of churches for many years), “Brother, my ministry is doing marvelous. This church is going down slower than any I’ve had before.”
The point is – whether the abuse is intense or subtle – the issue is our own minds. Have we seen Christ’s finished work? Have we seen our entry by faith into this realm of grace whereby our sins are no longer counted against us? Do we examine ourselves for sin or for faith?
I heard someone say that we are responsible for everything that we say, do, think and feel. I agreed that I was responsible for my own words, actions and thoughts. I didn’t agree that I was responsible for what I felt. What about the person who hurt me? Weren’t they responsible for my pain? Were they not to be held accountable for what I was feeling? When I thought about it, I realized that I could never be healed from what I felt so long as another person was responsible for it. It’s not easy and I’ve processed only about 5% of my feelings of rejection, hurt, anger, etc.
But, the real power to heal that I have found is believing the gospel and seeing (in an unfolding way) Christ in me and me in Him, Him in the Father, The Father in Him – UNION – unbreakable UNION in Christ. When my mind is trained upon that UNION, I have no fear, I have no overwhelming hurt or pain. I have nothing but rest and confidence. I am distresssed but not crushed, struck down maybe but not destroyed. I feel rest.
I don’t know how I would have handled the sort of abuse that I know many of you guys have experienced. I think that most of you must be stronger than I am. I shudder to think what I might have done under the heavy handed authoritarian leaders that have abused you.
Just think, one day some of these SGM leaders may say “I used to persecute the very church of God, thinking that I was serving God. But, on my way to an SGM conference, God knocked me off of my horse . . . And now I proclaim the marvelous mystery, hidden in God for ages. For had the rulers of the world known this mystery (that Christ’s death would accomplish our union with God) they never would have crucified Him.”
Hallelujah!
Chris Wiley — thanks for sharing your insights.
Noel,
Hallelujah! The real gospel is truly GOOD NEWS! I think your post should be canonized. Oops, that’s right, it already has been!
Thanks for taking the time to articulate it so well.
Square Peg,
You are welcome. If I am able to say anything that plants or waters a gospel seed, then God’s purpose is served.
PS: I loved your comment on here the other day about people needing to go for a walk, hold a baby, see the beauty of the forest, etc., BEFORE they post. Argumentation is only effective when motivated by love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, or for the lost. “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing”. A life lesson we all need to learn more intimately. Continue to enjoy God’s simple blessings!
Resting in Christ,
Chris
Noel,
I have rarely had anyone say that what I said or wrote was “awesome”, but thank you for that kind word. It is a wonderful thing to encounter “kindred spirits” on our journey with Christ, but I believe I can say from reading your posts and from your response to mine, that we are indeed just that.
I loved what you said about an “unbreakable UNION in Christ” as that is what Christ came to earth for, what He died for, and what He sent the Comforter for. “God is faithful, by whom you’ve been called into fellowship (unbreakable union) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor 1:9). God can not have fellowship with darkness (the flesh) and therefore He made us alive together with Christ in the Spirit so that He could have fellowship with us (Spirit to spirit). That is why scripture says “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you”. Jesus really does want us to be His friends, not just automaton followers. When you begin to understand this spiritual fact, then “you have the tiger by the tail” as one teacher put it. This reality is where we need to abide, forever. It is the closest thing on earth that we will ever have to Heaven. This union is that “love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” from which nothing will be able to separate us. Praise be to God!
Anyway, I’ve got to go referee a Birthday Party for my twin boys, Ian and Evan, who are turning 9. I think they are battling with the enemy right now but I am afraid someone might get injured by friendly fire.
Good Night and God Bless,
Chris
NOEL -
I’m embarassed to say it but I remember telling a friend “you know why these grace preachers teach all this grace stuff don’t you – they just like to drink wine.” I still don’t drink [much] wine; but that’s only because I prefer Vodka, Rum or Tequila. It was so juvenile of me.
I had to chuckle a bit at your comment about the the grace preachers. Christian leaders are so afraid to preach grace and freedom. I have had pastors tell me it is dangerous to preach to much grace and freedom. I would laugh — and ask them what is the limit to “lavish” and how free did Christ really make us? -”Jesus came to make us free, free indeed” — Is there a particular amount of law that needs to be preached with grace for balance? Is there a certainly amount of bondage that needs to preached with freedom for balance?
It is grace and freedom that empowers the believer to do great and mighty things as God’s change agents of the world. Our freedom and grace is sealed in the Holy Spirit; we are now His representatives (ambassadors) in the earth.
We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. Way too many Christians identify themselves with their sin, short comings, etc. and that becomes the sum total of their Christian life – trying to overcome sin.
Our identity is in Christ, His righteousness, seated in the heavenlies — part of a chosen race, a holy nation,a royal priesthood and people possessed by God. As we renew our mind with the truth of who Christ and who we are in Him, that becomes the source of our life and liberty. Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin.
“We have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us; and the life which we now live in the flesh we are to live by faith in the son of God, who loves us and gave Himself up for us”
Good (great) News — blessings to all the Refuge brethren.
Irv,
Well said.
This does not tempt me to sin. The truth has the opposite effect on me.
Irv said, ‘We hear Christians use the words ‘ greasy grace’ — sloppy agape — etc. Those are not Biblical terms but they are used to control people and somehow think it will keep people from sinning. …Focus on your sin, you will continue to be bound by your sin. ”
A- and ah,MEN!
sources say Danny is out of Aposolic Leadership and will be just a Senior Pastor of Metro and ‘a new guy’ who i will keep nameless at this point is taking over? ARE we finally heading in the right direction?
wow! kinda depends on the last name of the new guy ya know?
I mean is it Emerson?
or a Mahaney relative?
Praying for MLC & KCC…..
Neither one, Defended. My daughter was there when the announcement was made and she said it is Aron Osborne who will take over leadership of the southern region. Metro Life will be his homebase; he will be a pastor/elder and spend 25% of his time there. This will hopefully relieve some of the strain on Danny so he can focus on getting MLC back on track. At least that is my prayer, even though I’m not there anymore!
no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not surprising about Aron Osborne. His star has been rising for years. He is one of Harvey’s close proteges. If AO will be based in Orlando, who will be taking his role as the new senior pastor in Souderton?
its not Aron Osborne……..try again. Its one of Davey Harvey’s Henchmen
Silent Guardian, were you at the meeting? I only ask because Vida is saying her daughter was there and said that’s who it was announced as. Not that mistakes or misunderstandings aren’t easy to happern. I’m just trying to figure out who’s on third.
Actually, two of my daughters — including a young adult who is planning to stay at MLC — were there, and both said it was Aron Osborne. I know very little about him, so I have no opinion either way. I am just hoping for the best for all of them.
Was anyone else there who could provide more details on what was announced?
Silent Guardian, even if we disagree with someone, we can show basic courtesy of speaking of them by their regular names and avoid the loaded language. “Harvey’s close protege” (by formersgmer) is a lot more appropriate than “Davey Harvey’s Henchmen.” If you want to be taken seriously as a one who has something genuinely helpful to say, this is a little step in the right direction. As it is, you are baiting people and not giving any useful information to prove your credibility. If you’re going to bring it up in the first place, be forthright about it, please. Just the facts! This is not a schoolyard spat.
“Harvey’s henchman” works for me!
The facts, according to Aron Osborne’s site if you are interested. A quote form his bio states, “…is assisting Dave Harvey with oversight of several Sovereign Grace Churches in the northeast.” IMHO, how to do “oversight” for Aron has been modeled by Dave Harvey. I could be wrong here, but in my experience, the mentor’s job is to school the mentored on how to do it–I’m just saying.
Gratefully:
Good comment at 9:47am.
–pk
Everyone:
Let’s be careful in how we address each other (preaching this to myself first) here, and remember something that Jim has expressed from time to time here we can all learn from: a blog is not a good place to have an emotionally fraught conversation. It’s one thing to state what and why we believe something, and even how much it makes us happy or disgusts us…but when we get into “yes it is” and “no it isn’t” conversations, we can hurt each other even more. Given that some of us are trying to recover already, this is like two injured people getting into a yes-it-is/no-it-isn’t fight in an emergency room with other injured people taking sides and cheering for one or the other.
I’m not getting on anyone’s case, please hear what I am saying (and I am positive I’m going to get many “physician, heal thyself” emails). I am happy to facilitate conversations offline. Email me and ask if the other person would like to talk offline, and I will set that up and get out of the way.
Love you folks,
–pk
By coincidence, a friend from Metro called a little bit ago to tell me the news about Aron Osborne. She is well aware of the issues with SGM and has sought God over whether to leave or stay, and feels called to stay and pray for a move of the Holy Spirit. She was definitely in faith for this new development, and seemed to think, based on Aron Osborne’s time and sermon at Metro a few weeks ago, that he is more open to the Holy Spirit.
Well since there is a Family Meeting on October 13…… maybe my news will came to light. Im asking to verify, not to hold over peoples heads. The name ‘Aron Osborne’ did not come up in my research. And my information is ‘newer’ than anybody on this blog is aware of…….even those, like me, who attend Metro. Supposedly this is a secretive tryout for the new gentleman. So, we will see……..
It’s Aaron Osbourne.
Wonder what this means for MN, and how long he has before he is “degifted”?
So sad to see my former home is half empty (or full).
Silent Gaurdian says:
September 13, 2010 at 11:37 am
“The name ‘Aron Osborne’ did not come up in my research. “
SG, It was announced on a Sunday morning. Did you sleep in? Not much research needed when you attend!
Nauseated says:
September 14, 2010 at 10:41 am
“Wonder what this means for MN, and how long he has before he is “degifted”?
So sad to see my former home is half empty (or full).”
Nau, I think God has MN and his wife in the palm of his hand. Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it. When they put MN in the place he is in, “degifting” as you put it, has already taken place. If God closes the door for him at MLC, he will certainly open another. Also, it is never sad when God shakes up His people and moves thier giftings elsewhere. You give too much credit to mans plans and failures. God does His best work in these moments. God’s glass is neither half empty or half full. It is overflowing. His church will be the same.
Hi Phil3_14. If I have never welcomed you here before, welcome!
I love the image you evoke when you say, ”Nau, I think God has MN and his wife in the palm of his hand”. It’s a beautiful thing we all need to be reminded of daily. And what a good thing it is for MN and his family, too.
I also liked this reminder, ”Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it.” Again, we all need to be reminded of this in the most loving way possible. Thanks for doing that.
You also said, “Also, it is never sad when God shakes up His people and moves thier giftings elsewhere”
I totally disagree with you on that one. though God is at work, there is still often room for sadness and grieving while that work takes place in this fallen and broken world. I know that if God were ever to call one of my children home to be with Him, it would be His work and I hope I could find some comfort in that, but there is still a breakking, a missing and mourning that takes place. I’d imagine that there will be a sadness for many at Metro as people are taken away, if only til we see them again on the other side of the veil. Something we need to remember so that we don’t trample or ignore the feelings of those who are struggling with this very real emotion and pain. I don’t think it’s a case of giving credit to man’s failings or plans as much as simply recognizing the fruit that is often borne (born?) of it.
Good luck to everyone at Metro. Our heavenly daddy is at work and loves us each so!
Silent Gaurdian…I think you need to get some new and reliable contacts at Metro. Aron Osborne is def. going to be at Metro and is taking over all of Danny Jone’s “Apostolic” Responsibilties”.
Did anyone hear that Crossway Community Church in Charlotte, NC announced last night at their Family Meeting that they are doing another Church Plan. Thank GOD that Brent D. is not invloved in this one. They may actually have a chance of it “working” this time….
What is a “Church Plan”?
Sounds like they’ve done this before, what happened in the previous “Church Plans”?
Welcome back, Suzie J. I hadn’t heard of a new church plant from Crossway. Where’s it going to be?
P.D.
TYPO?
Plant?
Aw Geeze!
Osbourne has been in SGM since the early 90′s….it’s hard for me to imagine Aaron not operating from Dave Harvey’s playbook. He was at Dave’s church before being sent out on a local transplant of Covenant Fellowship folks. Aaron is well-mannered and intelligent, but I have personally seen him in action and he is a company man. I wouldn’t expect any changes that weren’t approved in advance by Dave Harvey.
yes, plant. sorry for the typo.
Suzie,
You had me going for a moment.
No harm done. (Except for the hole scratched in my head.)
Sorry about that Defender. Hope you head heals quickly. They are looking a possible planting a church in Summerville, SC.
Metro is God’s Church, he is dealing with it and he will break it down and rebuild it.”
I really can’t help myself on this one – perhaps opening a can of worms.
Herein lies the problem with the church — SGM leaders and others think it is their responsibility to build the church, that somehow Jesus has relinquished what He has said He would do to men.
Leaders operate and exercise authority as if it is their church rather than God’s. Whatever men build will crumble at some point. “unless God builds the house, they labor in vain who build it”. Only that which is the kingdom of God will stand in the shaking . SGM will always have the crumbling because it is about them, their doctrine and their authority. How does Jesus get in a word edgewise?
Jesus is the cornerstone and without the cornerstone the house will fall. It isn’t the cross, it isn’t church government or authority, it isn’t worship, it isn’t prayer, etc. it is Jesus Himself – and with it the fullness of His glory.
I have heard it said “Jesus would build His church” — I sure hope so because I don’t think men have done a very good job doing His job. But that’s me!!!
Irv:
September 17, 2010 at 12:02 am is indeed a can of worms, but it needs to be opened and dealt with (so thank you for turning the first crank on the can-opener).
The pseudo-humility exercised can brainwash one into thinking they are on the cleaner end of all dirty things.
It can be distilled from the language we use(d).
Over the decades, so often behind the catch-phraseology and fads in Sovereign Grace Ministries’ self-centered culture (which I ate up using all utensils available) is a sense of manpower urgency. And I mean manpower in a godless, pride-driven sense.
“Cross-centered” in actuality meant SGM’s take on cross-centered, or worse, just plain SGM-centered.
“Getting the Gospel Right” became Getting the Gospel Righter Than You and Everyone Else.
“I’m the Worst Sinner I Know” was actually I’m the Worst Sinner I Know (And Please Take Note of My Humility Exceeding Yours by Leaps and Bounds…NOW, TAKE NOTE OF IT NOW…).
“Doing Better Than I Deserve” always had this fake-ish, juvenile air to it that may as well have been Doing Better Than I Deserve, but I’m Not Returning That Boat I Got. I’ve purposed the next time I hear this, my response is going to be, “then you need to go into missions.”
The one that disturbs me more than any of the others–probably more than the ones that substitute SGM profundity with ”cross”–is how “Bringing the Gospel into (insert any noun/verb/adverb here)” was, in actuality, Bringing SGMology into (insert any noun/verb/adverb here).
The fruit of the Holy Spirit and God’s sanctifying grace became “The Fruit of Good Pastoring.” This type of reverse-engineering is silly, and it needs to stop. In harsher terms, it’s exchanging the truth for a lie.
What shameful tongues we have had!
I want to reiterate what you said, Irv, regarding Christ being both Cornerstone and Builder. SGMology is a momentary vapor, a wisp of air unsustainable in eternal terms. Martin Luther probably would have described these noxious phrases as farts in the wind.
I’m tired of blue air folks, and I just want Christ.
–pk
Metro Life Church News & Events:
Church Wide Family Meeting
Please mark your calendars for our next Family Meeting on Wednesday, October 13! The meeting will begin at 7:30 p.m. and will be in place of our normally scheduled home groups that evening. Aron Osborne, along with his wife Melissa, will be joining us for the evening and will share his account of how the Holy Spirit has led them during this season and their heart for Metro Life Church. Childcare will be provided for children 2 years old through 5th grade.
15 hours ago via twitterfeed
AMEN, PK!
You did an EXCELLENT job translating what those phrases REALLY mean.
I think it would be beneficial for current and past SGMers if you would translate every “SGM phrase” you can recall. SGM’s main tactic is the “language.” It sounds so good – it really messes with your mind.
Their heart for you. Isn’t that nice? Where’s a vomit bag when you’re not in an airplane but still feel like you’re about to be dropped through the stratosphere?
Stunned, give Aron Osborne a chance. God does work in mysterious ways! I don’t want to put God in a box, especially when it comes to the ability to work his ways in his church, even one that sometimes has put him in a box themselves. There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church. This could be an answer to their prayers.
Vida, I’m trying to be polite, but you don’t really know what chances I have and have not given to Aron.
re: need for SGM translations.
From the works of Jonathan Edwards Vol 1 Sec. 1
” Spiritual pride often disposes persons to singularity in external appearance, to affect a singular way of speaking, to use a different sort of dialect from others, or to be singular in voice, countenance, or behaviour. But he that is an eminently humble Christian, though he will be firm to his duty, however singular—going in the way that leads to heaven alone, though all the world forsake him—yet he delights not in singularity for singularity’s sake. He does not affect to set up himself to be viewed and observed as one distinguished, as desiring to be accounted better than others—despising their company, or conformity to them— but on the contrary is disposed to become all things to all men, to yield to others, and conform to them and please them, in every thing but sin. Spiritual pride commonly occasions a certain stiffness and inflexibility in persons, in their own judgment and their own ways; whereas the eminently humble person, though he be inflexible in his duty, and in these things wherein God’s honour is concerned; and with regard to temptation to those things he apprehends to be sinful, though in never so small a degree, he is not at all of a yielding spirit, but is like a brazen wall; yet in other things he is of a pliable disposition, not disposed to set up his own opinion, or his own will; he is ready to pay deference to others’ opinions, loves to comply with their inclinations, and has a heart that is tender and flexible, like a little child”.
There is nothing new under the sun.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pag.....561?ref=ts
Pilgrim:
Great JE quote at September 17, 2010 at 8:33 am.
–pk
Stunned said;
Vida, I’m trying to be polite, but you don’t really know what chances I have and have not given to Aron.
What does that mean? “chances” are you saying that you have talked to Aron personally?
Suzie, are you asking if I know Aron personally? Yes, we were in the same church for many years, though if you asked him my name, he may have forgotten me by now.
Vida,
On your post 9/17@ 7:31 am, you stated: “There has been a group of people praying for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro Life Church. This could be an answer to their prayer.” (in reference to Aron Osbornes new pastoral position there). Contemplating this………
Sincerely, I’m asking….how will we or do we define a move of the Holy Spirit??
–I was saved and redeemed 35 years ago during the ‘Charasmatic Movement’–at a small Methodist church on the west coast. At that time everything about the Lord, the Bible, Christians, was unchartered and new to me. I wouldn’t have known ‘charasmatic’ from ‘asthmatic’. Soon, though, I experienced the powerful Presence of the dunamis power of the Holy Spirit. Baptized in the Holy Spirit (please, not looking for a theological debate on this!)…speaking in tongues…praying for and seeing people and members of my family miraculously healed. Seeing people delivered from demonic oppressions and deliverances.
Experiencing Words of Wisdom and Words of Knowledge——–yes, for a period of about 10 years Holy Spirit revealed Himself in these ways. {Then man, as usual, made a mess of it all etc etc…}
Some years ago, I realized the Holy Spirit moves in powerfully different ways—often ways in which we would not expect…or even define as a “move of the Holy Spirit.”
My whole point is……I believe Holy Spirit IS IS IS moving … could it be that He is cleansing…and exposing hidden deceit and sins in the church???
Early in the Book of Acts, we read the story of Ananias and Sapphira.
(recall Acts 5: 1-11). Certainly, since this account is written in scripture,we may believe God is letting us know the serious evil of lies and deceit in the church.
He Himself revealed the hidden deed to Peter…Peter addressed it …and went straight to the core of the issue: Acts 5:4b “Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have lied not to men but to God.”
and Acts 5: 5– “And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.”
…During our “story” and also during the Chesapeake story, we experienced both heartbreak, sorrow, shock…….AND
the powerful powerful Presence of Holy Spirit. We give Him glory for speaking His Voice above all others in the midst of the storm and in the midst of smokescreens,deceits, and duplicitous words from leadership. He shattered darkness over and over again. He gave specific directions and instructions for us—above the voice of man/leadership. He provided for our needs. He intervened in our lives—awoke us—delivered us —redeemed us— and it was all done by leaning in and listening to Him….and believeing Him…
At one point in the Chesapeake story, a prayer request was sent to 20 some members of the church— to pray for and to go to the ’3 Couples’ — to seek truth and pray for their church. Most remained asleep. One leader charged the ones who requested prayer with “opening the door to slander and gossip” (this person didnot know the battle had already been going on for 7 months!)…….
I wonder——– perhaps there are times Holy Spirit IS moving among us—but we are either asleep—-don’t recognize it——or think He moves in only certain ways.
I believe Holy Spirit IS moving— and presently, ONE of the ways is in cleansing the church. Recalling the exhortations to the churches listed in the book of Revelations:
“He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the churches”
I submit to you, that a Holy God is exposing the seriousness of the workings of deceit in SGM. By His Spirit.
Acts 5:4– “WHY is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Oh well said, Waters! Well said. Your words sober us all.
In case this hasn’t been stated explicitely yet: starting in January, Aron Osborne will not only “be added” to the leadership team, but also “assume regional responsibility for the southeast churches of SGM.”
I’d hope the best and brightest. No questions about Osborne. It’s just so weird that this entire system of patronage is continued on and on and on, no matter what.
If anything holds SGM together, it is the inofficial mentor-mentee system on the leadership level.
Hi I found this website a few days ago and have been trying as much as possible to absorb all that has been written. I have been free of my SGC for nearly 3 years. I was in my SGC in FL (not Metro, but hesitate to say which one just yet) for just short of 10 years when I made the decision to leave. MANY others have left since for varying reasons. I am a single. I will give my story on the Your Story 2 thread at some point.
)
I’ve read through a lot of the stories you all have posted as well as a few other threads including Signs You’ve Become a Non-Thinking SG Drone over on Survivors! I couldn’t believe how many of those things I [used to] relate to. My story of why I left SGM is nowhere near as horrible as what you all have been through though. Some of this stuff shocked me, though in retrospect it shouldn’t. I feel like I wasted 10 years of my life in some ways. Again, I will post my story some time.
Tonight I stumbled across this thread. Since I’ve been out of the loop for almost 3 years I am shocked to hear what is happening at MLC. I knew about what happened with JJ. Because I went to the “family meeting” my church had about it. But I didn’t know that B.D. in the Charlotte church resigned, that M.N. was being forced out and that T.T. had left MLC. I would really love to know what happened.
Also, I have reason to believe that the pastor of MY former SGC has either resigned or been asked to leave. Obviously no one in my former church has posted anything about this on facebook, only a former member. I basically only have contact to anyone who still goes to my former SGC church through facebook and the occasional accidental running into them at a store. Of course when I left they all promised me we would stay in contact, but we all know that is a joke. I feel like the Amish in which if they chose to leave to go to the “outside” world you are shunned! LOL Though I have been back twice since my departure (once for a wedding, once for a funeral) and was warmly greeted, anytime I’ve ever mentioned connecting in person with one of them, they will say yes, but never follow through.
Anyway, if anyone could be so kind to fill me in with what happened with MN, TT, and BD that would be awesome. My email address (this is my secondary one, if emailed I will be glad to give my primary one once I know it’s not someone from my SGC that still goes there
philippians4_6and7@yahoo.com
Welcome, Ex-FL-SGMer. Thanks for posting an email where others can contact you and hopefully fill you in on those questions you posed. We haven’t heard much out of MLC in awhile, so I’ll let those in the know respond…
P.D.
In Response to Ex-FL, T.T. is in maryland and doing well. Leading some worship and working and praying about direction, but loving life!! BD is recovering and is about to start a bible study called Aletheia here is the announcement:
“I love the book of Romans! It’s the greatest theological treatise ever written. I’ve decided to start a Bible study fellowship called Aletheia (Greek: truth) for anyone interested in an informal, but in depth study of God’s word. It begins Saturday, November 6 at our house from 6:30-8:00 pm. ”
MN’s status i do not know. There was a family meeting on the 13th at MLC, Aron Osborne was being introduced as the new guy, but i am somewhat out of the loop since most of my closest friends have left!!!
Hope that helps somewhat.
From the comments I have read here, SGM does sound like it has a Presbyterian form of a government. The Presbyterian model sounds very appealing until one sees it practiced where the elders are re-affirmed without any discussion or debate year after year while the congregation slowly withers away while the only pastoral care given is to berate someone for considering leaving the “authority” of the session. Appeal to the Presbytery sounds appealing until you read learn cases where pastoral abuse is never appealed to the Presbytery because the abused do not understand the lofty legal structure erected over the churches. Those who do understand the legal superstructure figure out that it is a shell game where the dominant faction of presbytery will gets its way regardless of the damage done to the sheep in the folk.says.
Occassionally some pastors will make it past the screening process of the Presbytery and be installed in churches where they can raise concerns about doctrinal error in the Presbytery. But that small minority can be put up on charges of disrupting the “peace” of the church.
(All examples given here I witnessed in a presbytery of the PCA.)
SGM has apparently decided to perfect the Presbyterian form of church goverment, which is suspectible to dissidents thinking they have an actual voice, by dispensing with the inanity of elder elections and Presbytery votes orchestrated by the powers that be.
I digress and await the creation of pcarefuge.com.
Dear Robert,
I’m so sorry to hear you’ve seen so much pain and suffered so much pain.
Stunned
Ex Fl Sgracer…were you in the Daytona Church. There is much debockle going on there at the present time. Both of the Dannies, and other pastorial oversight continue to put salt into the wounds of the saints…How many ways can these men communicate clearly, and biblically that they really don’t care. So far this church debockle has been neatly swept under the rug.
The X XXXXX X SR Pastor of the Daytona Church should be ashamed of himself. How long OH Lord…?
Robert, as a presbyterian who commented on a polity thread here stating my belief that SGM’s polity isn’t presbyterian (no ruling elders, a hallmark of presbyterianism), I was saddened very much by the difficult things you vaguely referenced and the fact that you seem to believe you have no outlet, at least within your presbytery, to act on it. I’m also sorry you know of presbyterians who don’t understand the recourse they have as members of the body. Just know that this is not so across the entire denomination, that there are congregations where the flock are cared for and presbyteries where the hurt are defended.
In lieu of a refuge-type site, may I recommend The Aquila Report? There is a submit stories and reports link there.
Perhaps this should be reposted to the polity thread but I do believe the SGM pastor who compared his church’s polity to Presbyterianism has a point. Official SGM polity is different but the essence and practice have striking similarities.
Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a plurality of elders/pastors. Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy” (I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.) In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery. Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.
The SGM pastor said he had system of rule by elders/pastors with congregational input sought out. In practice this is what actual practice in presbyterian churches often looks like on good days. On bad days this system has many of the same abuses mentioned here regarding SGM.
Robert,
May I ask whether your experience was in a PCA or USA or the third one which I now forget its name?
I grew up presby, am presby once again now and have my presby brother-in-law who has been a pastor for 30 years now. A few of the things you have said are so far from any of the things I have ever observed and experienced myself that it makes me wonder if we were in different presby denominations, that’s why I asked the above question.
For example, I have never once heard of a teaching elder in any of my presby experiences.
You said, “(I never saw a Presbyterian congregation approve the church’s budget.)” i have personally seen this vote happen many times. I have also seen people vote against the budget when they have disagreed with something in the budget. And then go to the pastor both before and after to discuss the things that they disagreed with.
You also said, “Both have an exalted role for church officers with local congregations dominated by a plurality of elders/pastors.” I certainly don’t want to diminish your experience by saying it is different from mine. If any experience is true, one is not more valid than the other. So please understand that this question is not meant as a dismissal of your thoughts but a desire for clarification. Would you please let me know what you mean by an exalted role for church officers? Again, though I have always been heavily involved in my presby churches, I could barely tell you who the elders were/are. So I have never seen any exaltation of roles, nor any domination taking place. Heck, as a teen ager I was asked to be on the nominating committee for the deacons and I seemed to have as much sway as the elderly woman that was my partner. (Hmmm, don’t know if that was the wisest move but it was wonderful to be in a church where they wanted to give everyone equal voice.)
That is why your comment, “Both explicitly reject congregational “democracy”” was so perplexing to me. Actually, now that I think about it, another presby church I know just voted to break away from the presby denomination they have been a part of for a looooong time. They made the decision as a democratic vote. There was much debate, both formally and among the town’s people for months. The pastor held back many of his views, because he did not want to be accused of unduly influencing anyone’s decisions. After many months of deliberation, prayer, debate, and discussion, the vote was made. There was no land slide. It was a close vote, which says to me that people used their vote to voice their opinions/convictions. The denomination they are breaking away from also had their long democratic process as does the other denomination they are becoming a part of. I was glad to see it held with some due process involved and much voting and discussion.
You also said, “In theory the congregation in Presbyterianism elects the REs and TEs (ruling elders and teaching elders) but in practice no one can be an RE or TE without first passing muster with the session / Presbytery.” Would you mind sharing “without first passing muster with the session” refers to? Like I said, I was on nominating committees and the person I nominated was chosen without any problem. (Not saying your experience is invalidated by mine.) The more you share it seems that you had a really horrible experience but it doesn’t sound like any presby church I have yet to experience. (Thank heavens. It sounds awful what you’ve described.) Not that I would want a session to ever vote in someone that they don’t approve of. What would be the point? I want my elders and deacons and ministers passing muster. For me, that’s a good thing and part of the democratic process.
“Rarely are REs removed in congregational elections.” This is my experience, as well. Though, I have seen it happen but it doesn’t happen all that much. Not that it has needed to happen all that much, though I can think of one situation where it needed to happen much sooner than it did.
Thanks for coming along and giving us stuff to think about.
Stunned
Stunned,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am referring to experiences I and people I know had in the PCA.
While the PCA and OPC have their own cults of personality, those denominations do differ from SGM in that they are larger and more widely dispersed, mitigating the damage done by any single dominant person. This does account for the ability of churches to exist that you describe, ones that are functioning and healthy. The the biggest difference between the PCA and SGM may be that several dominant personalities can wreck a congregation or even a presbytery in the PCA but SGM is small enough that the small group around Mahaney has the ability to wreck the denomination.
But much of the polity problems people have with SGM can be seen in PCA polity. I was taught in the PCA that the process in Matthew 18 was that was to take to one or two others to the offending brother and if he did not listen to you to take him to the elders. But Scripture actually says “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church” [Matt 5.18]. Fundamentally the PCA confounds the elders and the session with the church.
This teaching is reflected in the PCA BCO (Book of Church Order), Section 12.5a which states the session has the power “[t]o inquire into the knowledge, principles and Christian conduct of the church members under its care; to censure those found delinquent…” The weighty responsibility to care for the souls of straying believers is stripped from the congregation and placed in the hands of a small group over the church.
Once this substitution of the session for the church is accepted in one’s mind, one comes to accept all sorts of powers as the prerogative of the session. On the matter of the church budget the PCA BCO does state the session has the power “to approve and adopt the budget” (Section 12.5b).
Some on this blog have commented that the pastor board of an SGM congregation has the power to sell the church building and move the congregation meetings to a rented school. This same power is granted to a PCA session, for it has the power “[t]o approve actions of special importance affecting church property” (BCO Section 12.5c)
Some here have commented that an SGM pastor can be removed from office without explanation to the congregation. A friend of mine actually saw this happen in a PCA congregation.
As for the comment for an RE having to pass muster with the session, my experience is that the session can act as a permanent nominating committee—nominating committees run by the pre-existing group in charge create the opportunity for abuse and the perpetuation of those in charge.
Reference: The PCA Book of Church Order
http://www.pcaac.org/BCO%20201.....%20All.pdf
RH
Beloved:
I think it needs to be pointed out–as diplomatic as possible–that when two churches share similar bad practices (or any behavior that bucks both the heart of their polity statement or frays the cords of essential Christian doctrines that span across the denoms) this does not mean their polity is in sync with each other, and that polity monikers can be mixed and matched.
There is also a tail-chasing aspect to all of this as well. This involves picking and choosing aspects of a polity–”Presbyterian” for example–like a salad bar and then stamping that name on it. It may be a particular brand of that polity, but is it really the entirety of that polity statement?
My whole point in even beginning to address the polity issue on this blog was to explore the fact that SGM was making grand claims about the biblical stamp of approval on their practices when in fact many could be called into question. Whatever the polity is, if a man’s practices (ultimately governed by his heart) are directing you to worship him instead of God, there’s a problem.
I sought to show that some polity structures–while flawed like everything else in our fallen world–appear to be able to handle wolves better than others.
Please understand…this is not an opportunity for any of us to pound our chests and decry ours the superior one. Discussion and even debate is fine; where I took issue was SGM’s declaration–via Dave Harvey–that Episcoalian and Presbyterian were (1) appear to be closer to Scripture than anything else out there and (2) this was what SGM was/is/will be practicing.
These declarations are a mixed bag, at best, and nowhere near conclusive.
I hope I am making sense at this late hour.
–pk
SGM = paid pastors sent to congregations by a central office in MD. There are no elected leaders. Those paid pastors run the church. No voting by church on calling pastors or anyone else. No Book of Church Order used for polity. Head in MD, regional non-elected appointed apostle gives directions and discipline, local priests = episcopal model.
Presbyterian form of government = ruling and teaching elders elected by congregation. One vote per man. Book of Church Order. Local presbyteries, whose members have been elected to their positions by their congregations, oversee their own churches = prebyterian polity. Presbyterian system. Problems therein? Sure, we are all sinners.
I know polity is important. Maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess….but again I say…The leaders of Daytona and Metro Churches and those over them, should be ashamed of themselves for letting the deception get this far out of hand. This is terrible and lives are still being ruined in the church, because of the church.
Sovereign Grace Ministries play church.