Jim–you must just pee in a jug under your desk, since you spend so much time coming up with new unique people to be every day. You certainly must not be able to come up from the basement to visit the restroom.
Do ya call pizza or Chinese in? Because I’m realizing that you and Carole must tag-team? Sit next to each other down there in the murk, just pounding away.
I have it. You and Carole and Guy and Kris all help each other out.
RT-actually, I’m Jim, Carole, Kris, Guy, John Immel, and all of our commenters. My disorder runs so deep that I’m responding to you, even though I am you.
Beautiful…Jim… Yes there is a problem in Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes it is in Your Local Church. Especially if You found yourself under the care and leadership of any D a n n y.
Jim~
WOW i didnt know it was going to be unique visitors. That is incredible!!!!!!!!! I believe that you and carol and kris are doing a great job!!!!!!
Is it unique visitors or unique visits? On my own blog stats, there is a difference. If a person visits at two different times during a day, separated by at least a half hour (?) it counts as two separate visits. Some people visit more than once a day, so that would bump the numbers up a bit. However, your stats do NOT account for all the people like me who subscribe to the posts and comments via Google Reader and/or e-mail. If those were added in, that would probably raise your numbers significantly.
Charlie, please lay off on Danny. He’s trying. I don’t think any of us would want to be under the same scrutiny.
What do these statistics show me?
This analysis summarizes multiple page views of an individual visitor into unique visits. A visitor is counted only when bringing up at least one page and taking no longer than 30 minutes between individual pages.
What does this tell me?
You know how many unique visits are made to your website and at which times.
The only data available to me is unique visits and total pageviews. I’ve always assumed that it was unique visitors, as you described above, as I use a large, popular hosting company, and marketers only care about two things-impressions (page views) and unique visitors. My hosting firm caters to business owners, and as someone who has sold web ads, the “unique visits” data you receive is irrelevant to marketers.
Jim, thanks for clarifying. The info in your comment that came through on the e-mail feed is shorter than what is on the blog. I’m assuming you added some. So any of the Refuge folks out there who are getting the comments by e-mail might want to check in on the blog to see the extra stuff.
I was thinking http://www.statcounter.com, which I use, did both unique visits and unique visitors, but it doesn’t. It counts it as a separate visitor if the person comes back later in the day. So it’s pretty much the same as yours. BTW, I get a fair amount of traffic linking into my blog from Refuge readers all over the country. I can assure people that they aren’t all coming from Jim and his supposed thousands of aliases!
My own IP address changes frequently –maybe every week or so? – and even “locates” me in other cities within a hundred miles or so. I never know quite where I am, according to Statcounter!
Another thing I learned from reading the Statcounter page about cookies, AOL, and ‘dynamic web proxy’ that can skew results: How do the Summary Stats work? The ‘Summary Stats’ determines whether a visitor has been to your website before by using a cookie. So if a user has cookies disabled we have no way of knowing if they are unique or not, and will by default be considered unique. However the majority of visitors have cookies enabled. To make up for relying on cookies in the summary stats, the rest of the stats are based on your detailed log analysis of the last xxx number of pageloads. The uniqueness in this case is based on your visitors’ IP addresses. This method works very well for the majority, but yet again there is an exception. AOL users, and visitors who use what is known as a ‘dynamic web proxy’ that changes each time they access a webpage. So if a single AOL user visits 7 webpages on your website it will likely come up as 7 different IP addresses! Both cookies and IP addresses have their strengths and weaknesses for determining the uniqueness of a visitor. It is impossible to be 100% accurate the entire time, but with the Standard StatCounter Project you get the best of both worlds. Cookies for the ‘Summary Stats’ and IP addresses for the ‘Detailed Log Analysis’!
~~~
As I try to remind myself when I look at my blog stats, the main thing is not how many people are reading my blog every day, but what they find when they get there and how it will affect them. I always try to think of who all is in my audience, and how they might be struggling with life. Some might need a challenge and a kick in the pants to get moving, and some might need the healing balm. That’s the goal of Refuge, too, isn’t it? “A haven for castaways, a call for reform.” And everyone needs the truth and love of Jesus.
I used to post stats because some SGM pastors were full of beans regarding the blogs. In the early days, aside from the standard “it’s full of sin” declaration, it was said that the blogs were insignificant. I posted stats to let the guys know, “a lot of people are reading this stuff.”
I have no idea why what’s his name brought up the traffic issue, but wanted to give him what he asked for. I don’t check stats very often, not even monthly, as its become a moot point. A lot of people read survivors and refuge, and SGM leadership knows it.
Jim, I just realized my comment came across as being critical of counting blog visitors. Sorry about that! I think stats are very valid. My last paragraph was a philosphical P.S. , not questioning by you or anyone else looks at the numbers. I think this numerical information is actually quite significant and I was glad to see it. Like I said, I’m also wondering about the people behind the stats — what they are thinking, where they are coming from, etc. Whoever you all are, folks, GRACE and MERCY to you! If you are hurting, here is my little word-offering to you: Disillusioned and Disappointed? Take It to Jesus!
Vita-no worries here. I didn’t see your comment as critical. I think defining questions are good, particularly since I’ve been accused of inventing numbers by whatever his name was.
Nope, I still experience the ruin of lives. I am safe to say it here. Sovereign Grace has big problems especially if you are under the care of any D A N N Y. I was reciently thrashed by one of your people. I am doing well outside of the church, but suffer with the saints….
I believe Christians in Sovereign Grace have only seen the start. Keep reading…more truth to come.
Whoops-dweeb just got banned, just for being an ass. I think “just being an ass” is a new reason for being banned, as general assness is a symptom of a koolaid OD, but dweeb took it to a whole new low.
Bye dweeb. Although you hide like a little girl behind a screen name and a hotmail account, you know exactly who I am. Anytime you want to speak face to face, you know how to reach me.
It is too bad that dweeb couldn’t have engaged in the discussions on this blog in a more civilized manner rather than him needing to be banned.
Sometimes when one sees the truth it can hurt and one can act like you indicate “dweeb” was doing. I am sure he doesn’t like someone pointing out the problems with what he sees as a “perfect world.” That is quite threatening to him.
Interesting! Honestly I thought whats-his-name treated Jim the way a certain frmr exec pastor has been reported to treating people who brought “observations’ – that is, to lash out and attack the so-called sinner/observer in an effort to deflect. I can’t see that certain ‘shepherd’ stooping to the level of assness tho. ;o) altho he was anonymous….. I would hope a legit leader would have the character to talk to Jim directly.
I’m in an email exchange with dweeb from MLC. The ball is in his court, as all he has to do is call me, and if we come to an agreement, he can come back here and continue to embarrass MLC to his heart’s content.
I won’t share his side of a private conversation, but everyone here knows that he’s very hung up on our traffic. I’ve told him that I’ll give Josh P access to my hosting account to allow a third party to “audit” our traffic.
“…he can come back here and continue to embarrass MLC to his heart’s content.”
Mwaaaahaaaahaaa. I don’t know why, but that just cracked me up.
Dweeb, get it together and come on back. Speaking the truth to each other can be intoxicating! You might be the one that changes minds and hearts with your winsome arguments and proper handling of the Word.
Alas, poor DweebMLC and his ilk—– priority reaction to discredit the “voices” which
expose the sgm overseers (formerly apostles) and their destructive ‘polity’—–
and all while self-blindfolded.
The antecdote, of course, would be to remove the blinders from eyes and ears and want to see and know truths. Ya know, like in a court of law where the witness and victims are on the stand to testify how they have been assaulted — and there is proof. To believe or to deny, I suppose, is the sgm choice. sgmChurch alleigance trumping truth—scarey.
I’m afraid that truly TRULY ‘speaking the Truth in LOVE’ has been lost in this population.
Sadly LOVE has been so eclipsed by sin-sniffing. But as Waters has said, what is really terrifying is if defending the sgmchurch system is allowed or required to trump the Truth.
Jim said – “but dweeb took it to a whole new low.”
Aw- let ‘em back. How bad could it be?
This will all take off again with a whole new lineup after the family meeting on the 7th -looking forward to the spin on Wednesday night. Will it be “openness” like they promised or more of the same? From discussions I’ve had, it should be an interesting meeting unless they censor the “open Mike”. Wouldn’t want to hear what the members really feel.
My money is on “more of the same”
Maybe they’ll “Matthew 18″ anyone that disagrees with their decrees.
Dweeb, or his family members have been posting under different names since January. His first post as dweeb was from the panhandle on June 21, although he lives in the Orlando area.
Maybe a family vacation? Maybe a visit to Niceville-who knows….
If he wants to join in the conversation, all he has to do is call me.
Jim
From worship this morning:
“Shall I take from Your hand Your blessings
Yet not welcome any pain
Shall I thank You for days of sunshine
Yet grumble in days of rain
Shall I love You in times of plenty
Then leave You in days of drought
Shall I trust when I reap a harvest
But when winter winds blow, then doubt
Oh let Your will be done in me
In Your love I will abide
Oh I long for nothing else as long
As You are glorified
Are You good only when I prosper
And true only when I’m filled
Are You King only when I’m carefree
And God only when I’m well
You are good when I’m poor and needy
You are true when I’m parched and dry
You still reign in the deepest valley
You’re still God in the darkest night”
Chuck
Chuck, Though you posted this song lyrics to Jim, I want to thank you — beautiful and rich lyrics encompassing the Christian journey. Especially the last 2 verses:
“You still reign in the deepest valley, You’re still God in the darkest night.” Amen!
Thanks. Per my email to you this morning, if you call me this week, I’ll give you log in info. You’ll be able to see exactly what I see.
See how special you are, dweeb? I’m giving a member of MLC, who I would imagine is not a giant fan of what I’m doing here, complete access to my cpanal.
I think Josh is a third party that you’ll find acceptable.
Jim~
I’m kinda confused, why are you bending over backwards for this idiot? I mean i really don’t understand you don’t have to prove anything to him. If he chooses to live in denial about his current lifestyle then let him. Its your site, and you have to do whats write in your eyes. I just don’t see how battling with a Koolaid drinking, truth hating, let me call my care group leader and tell him i farted in my car this morning kinda guy. I just do not see the point in it, I guess you do have your reasons.
I gotta tell ya, at first glance, those numbers kinda had me doing a double take.
I mean, really, it looks like an average of 1300/day.
Now on any given Sunday there might be an average of 1300 people filling seats in any given SGM church from sea to shining sea, and again, maybe, maybe not so many filling chairs in the care groups later that week.
But this is every day.
Now I don’t record the screen names here so I don’t know, but there are probably a few dozen people regularly posting here, and a few more who pop in from time to time.
That means the balance is people just reading (not posting.)
Do you think that SGM get’s its message out to that many people, every day?
If so, at what cost?
We are just a hand full of people in our pajamas, (maybe peeing in bottles under our desks,) talking amongst ourselves.
Okay, we are not peeing in bottles! I’m just still chuckling over RT’s post.
Nothing wrong with Jim answering an outrageous accusation with facts.
I personally wondered myself, from time to time, just how much traffic this blog gets.
How does that Proverb go? “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, but answer a fool as his folly deserves.”
I think a fool got his answer.
When you watch someone else mimick CJ, the idiosyncrasies are even more obvious. So odd.
I felt like I was watching someone mimic the ”nakedness” of the “emperor” before the crowd and they still couldn’t see it. What’s even sadder (and odder) are the SGM men who genuinely work to imitate such indiosyncrasies in their own communication style.
pdiwho – it took me 30 seconds to open stats, take a screen shot, and upload the pic. If ANYONE thinks I’m inventing stats, I’m happy to have someone they respect have a look for themselves. It’ll take five minutes.
Defender – traffic has always differed greatly from comments. I’m sure it’s the same at survivors.
Rourke is one of MacArthur’s boys, I think he’s actually on staff at Grace Church (where John MacArthur pastors.) Not a Sovereign Grace guy. He’s just a super good impersonator .
I can say with certainty that Jim is not making anything up. The stats are as Jim has presented them. However, I will say that stats can be misleading (I do technology evaluations on a regular basis, including website evaluations, and find that web stats are misunderstood frequently). Since my priority is to my customers that pay me to manage their technology, I’ll get around to offering Jim a detailed evaluation when time permits. He can then post the results if he chooses. In the mean time, I can confirm what everyone here already knows (except for dweeb): Jim is not lying about his web stats.
On a side note, I must admit that it was tempting to hit the delete button when I was logged in today, Jim. Or maybe just a simple href of sgmrefuge.com over to sovereigngraceministries.org ;)
Ah, Josh… Tsk! Tsk! for those naughty, naughty thoughts!
Just kidding… thank you for taking the time to do this. We “may” (LOL!) disagree on SGM issues, but I know you are an honorable man… and you proved it once again by not listening to that little guy on your shoulder to hit the delete button.
To DfMLC… (I know you’re still reading!) I understand your desire to defend your church… but the way you went about it (calling Jim a liar and spewing your anger and allegations all over the place, not to mention your filthy, profanity laden emails that were sent to Jim) was not the right venue. You ended up looking like… well, what Jim called you. I hope you have learned a much-needed lesson… never accuse someone of lying (or anything else) unless you have facts to back up your accusations.
You hurt your cause, DfMLC. Instead of making MLC and SGM look and smell like a rose, you have left a terrible stench. Not your intent, I’m sure, but it is the end result. Happy with yourself?
Profanity?
Aw, MLM (MetroLifeMember). That makes me sad. Jesus loves you, you know?
Our dear dear big Brother came to give us Life abundantly. The Father LOVES you and me SO much. The Holy Spirit will guide us and speak to our hearts.
You need to spend some time with Him.
Someone expressed concern that I gave Josh P access to my host account. Please understand that the host account is completely disconnected from the blog. There is no way that anyone could access anyone’s private info from my host’s cpanel.
PK has had access to the back end of the blog from time to time, and I think canary moderated while Carole and I were away once. I trust them both completely. No one else has ever had backend access. Your personal info is safe.
What Josh was able to see was similar to the image I posted at the top of this thread. He did me (and dweeb) a favor, and if his analysis shows that I’m misinterpreting our traffic, he’ll be doing me a favor, as I have no desire to misrepresent our stats.
I couldn’t imagine that you would jeopardize the security of others while inviting Josh to audit. Honestly I didn’t give it a secont thought!
and as for this “side note”: On a side note, I must admit that it was tempting to hit the delete button when I was logged in today, Jim. Or maybe just a simple href of sgmrefuge.com over to sovereigngraceministries.org ;)
While that was kind of clever or cute, Josh, I would say be careful what you wish for!
It’s well-noted that no such freedom for exchanges, replies and conversation exists on the aforementioned website blogs! So while it would be cute to have the refuge inside the door, so to speak, it would CLEARLY not be welcomed by your brothers on that site!
;o)
Josh could have done some damage. He not only could have hurt the blog, but could have also hurt some business domains I own. He’s not that kind of guy.
Well, I know I can trust your judgment, Jim. I just wasn’t sure if Josh was teasing about a real (theoretical, since he’s trustworthy) possibility. (I’m kinda gullible sometimes… )
Oh I highly suspect SGM leadership is concerned about information shared on these forums, including SGMSurvivors and Tyranny. Wanna know how I know?
It came to light on some forum or other that SGM’s membership primarily grows by siphoning off Christians from other surrounding churches. SGM is the octupus with a taste for Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians…..anyone who wants something new like being simultaneously reformed and charismatic and well, uh, better. (sarc)
I mean just being a Biblically-centered Christian doesn’t give the same ego tingles.
So I have a friend attending an SGM church who casually mentioned that her pastor is all of a sudden getting serious about evangelizing in the community. This pastor said that all they’ve been attracting are Christians attending other churches, so they’re going to start going outside that circle now. I think she said they’re starting a class at church to teach people how to bring in people who don’t know Christ.
I remember various “outreaches” that failed to convert anyone. I remember taking classes about being “brief and amazing” when sharing the gospel. The problem was, there was no power in our methods. No power in our words. The world can tell when they meet the real Jesus or just a pale imitation. That’s all we were – pale imitations of the Lord.
Canary,
You got me thinking, if there is power in the Gospel, and nobody responded, ……. I wonder just what was shared that SGM called a gospel?
(Or was it an attempt to show just how amazing SGM is to sgm-ers? And world just doesn’t care.)
KWIM?
There are lots of gospels, but only one true Gospel.
I don’t know, Defender. It’s possible. I went through “training” on how to share the gospel, what verses to use, even on how to write out my own track. We were suppose to go up to strangers and ask if we could talk to them. What was lacking was heart – there was so much mind stuff – the verses, the technique, etc. yet little love. I just shared the good news with my 15 year old again last week and there was certainly not only love but the Holy Spirit gave me the words. The results are so different when you share something that you actually HAVE. Does that make sense?
Yes it does make sense.
The true Gospel comes out in our lives, because we are changed, and effects us that way.
(Partly, my question was rhetorical.)
When I was growing up in the Lutheran Church, our particular congregation used the “Kennedy Evangelism Training Method”. It was a 16 week course in learning specific verses, and conversation methods in sharing the Gospel. I remember our team making cold calls to people’s houses, sitting in the living rooms and sharing the Gospel.
Our church grew exponentially. After several years, many of the people in the congregation cited that they were saved by those living room visits, and became members of that church. (Just a different twist on the “packaged Gospel”.)
Now eventually, that congregation morphed into celebrity worship of the pastor,and nepotism has kept it going. I remember hearing in the late 80′s, that the pastor had died of brain cancer, and his son-in-law took over the church.
Q.1.) “If you were to die tonight, do you think you would go to Heaven?”
Q. 2.) “If you did die tonight, and God asked you ‘Why should I let you into my heaven?’ What would you say?”
As per D. James Kennedy’s Evangelism Explosion.
The world is looking for a demonstation of Christ not an explanation. Jesus built a platform for his message by being first a servant and second a lover of sinners. The church has struggled with both of these.
We are not perceived as serving the world but judging the world. (not totally accurate but you get the picture). The expression of His Father was His glory — graciousness, compassion, mercy, love, kindness, reliable, and forgiving of ALL sin, iniquity and rebellion. We are His glory (or the expression of His glory) in the earth – sinners should encounter the glory of God in us to them. I don’t think the world sees Jesus when they see the (institutionalized) church.
Finally – the one’s that Jesus had a problem with were the self-righteous not the needy. And the self-righteousness had a problem with Him. It seems to me the church is seen as the self-righteousness not the expression of God’s glory in the earth (as the glory of God is in us – Christ Himself).
Last (this falls in line with the “just one more scripture” method ) – We will be most effective in reaching the world with the gospel when we learn who we are and the power of His righteousness to love and serve the world as He did (not in how well we learn to “share the gospel”. If we are to change the world (which we are called to do), it will be as servants of mankind (even the enemies of God – as he did us when we were enemies).
Kids learn how to relate by observing the people in their environment.
The hurting world learns about Jesus by the way we Christians live our lives.
And, in general, we are not doing such a swift job.
I remember the pressure to go out to the mall with the, “Two Question Test.” Oh, we had to go to special classes to qualify and take a final exam at the end (I got a 94 instead of a 100 because I asked a couple questions using my own words instead of regurgiating the script.) We were told the success rate was high.
I couldn’t bring myself to do it, I just couldn’t. And I’m extroverted but it just looked so contrived.
Does anyone know of anyone that has been converted and established in a local church as a result of this particular technique?
D.B., I never saw the two question test work on anyone. But that’s me. You were discerning enough not to try it. I, on the other hand, tried it a couple of times before I said to myself, “This ain’t working” and quit. My sharing the gospel with strangers at the Mall was “brief and amazing” – brief because I didn’t last long, and amazing that I ever thought it might “work”.
Way to say it, Irv. I have been thinking a while that Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. We should be of the same mind and heart. Unfortunately, a lot of judging of the world went on in the PDI that I knew. I’m ashamed to say I was part of that. Now I am free to love and live the gospel. Judgment Day will come soon enough and I, thankfully, won’t be the Judge! We have the freedom to walk in His love with all people. ( I am not talking about accepting sin, but loving sinners regardless – I’ve put down my stones)
DB, “Does anyone know of anyone that has been converted and established in a local church as a result of this particular technique?”
I know of people who claim to be converted by that method, as I said in my earlier post.
Not by me personally.
I never used that method except for in the class itself. This happened when I was 16 years old.
I have presented the Gospel to many in my life, and a few times I used words.
I recall several times, back when I worked in the Construction industry, when co-workers would ask If I were a christian or something like that, because I “didn’t smoke, or drink, or didn’t raise no hell, or nothin’ like that.” And It would open up opportunities to discuss the differences between “razin’ hell” and Jesus’ work to keep us out of hell. Or something like that. Can’t say if the guys were saved, don’t know where they are today. I don’t know if I planted seed, or watered it, or if it was harvested since. I just responded to the moment.
I didn’t have to ask those two questions.
These kinds of encounters were repeated many times in my life. I could tell when I was interacting with someone who was wrestling with God, because they would sometimes, without provocation, turn on me. I believe that the spirit in them was uncomfortable with the Holy Spirit in me. Therefore I would not respond unkindly, they were in torment.
It is a Spiritual Battle, that’s for sure.
The Gospel is best shared from our lives.
When we are truly living in the Grace of God, the Gospel is displayed.
(Not a contrived life like SGM demands,)
There were times when co-workers came to me and told me how my words or example changed their life, when I had no idea I ever did such a thing.
One such time a female co-worker was talking about how if she ever got pregnant, she would for sure get an abortion. I said “Well, just remember that you may have to give an account to God for that decision someday.” It wasn’t given in a judgmental tone, or anything like that. But, a year later she came to me to say that she had lost so much sleep over my comment, that she now knows that she could never do such a thing as abort a child, if she ever got pregnant.
Now that is not a presentation of the Gospel, but you never know how God is working in a person’s life. It was 15 years ago at Ft Belvoir VA. For all I know, someone else planted more seed and she is a believer worshiping today (hopefully not in an SGM church) and we will rejoice together at the feast of the Lamb.
Yeah, I’m not into “caned” gospel presentations either.
You know…however, whenever, with whomever, using whatever…let’s just all encourage each other to be ready in and out of season to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Some people have great success being taught how to get to the point, some people have a better ability to weave the gospel into conversations.
You may not be into canned presentations, you may be into them. Either way we are commanded to hare the gospel, and I am guilty of not always doing so. I am sad about this.
Let’s rejoice anytime the Word goes forth, because it never comes back void.
Anything done with purity and passion can be effective.
I’ve known people who have come to Christ through Evangelism Explosion.
We are treading on very thin ground here. As a sister in Christ, I urge you to focus on heresy and abuse in the church, not on people who pour their lives out to share the gospel.
Remember that Jesus always asked questions, “Who do you say that I am?”
If this approach doesn’t work for you, don’t use it. But let’s not shoot each other over it.
______ Brother,
The two question test is used as an ice breaker to open up a conversation with a total stranger. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. (I agree, the premise of the questions is not biblical, but you ask the questions to people who may know nothing of biblical things.)
It just gets a conversation going in the direction that can be turned to the Gospel.
It is for people who need a comfortable approach.
Truth be told, people I know who used that approach, no longer follow the “script” because they are comfortable sharing their faith in a natural way.
I’m not going to knock the Evangelism Explosion Program merely because it is canned, nor because I do not use it myself. BUT, People have been led to Christ by Christians who were otherwise not quite comfortable doing so in a casual way.
No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!
I think the original point here might have been that SGM had a canned program, that proclaimed ….. something…..not the true Gospel.
Wow RT - I certainly didn’t mean to communicate that I was shooting anyone down for preaching the gospel. That is the antithesis of what I live and believe. I was just following the spirit of the thrad.
I am very grateful to those who preach the gospel and personally I will use whatever works depending on my situation and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Jesus met people at their point of need not at His point of need – I personally like His example as have done accordingly.
In a very poor way, I was trying to communicate my concern about the way we as Christians represent Christ to the world that ultimately hinders the gospel of Christ.
I was attempting to say that Christ’s example of coming to serve mankind and loving even his enemies (of which we all were) are powerful in our expression to the world. When we serve those in the world (our neighbors, it gives a greater weight to our message.
I do believe that the church’s demonstration of our life with Christ has hindered the work of those who are on the front lines day in and day out.
Anyway — I appreciate your challenge to my comments – hopefully this brings some clarity of what is in my heart on not just my words.
I agree that using scare tactics to present the Gospel is annoying and not profitable, and certainly not scriptural.
The Evangelism Explosion “method” may not be your cup of tea, but it does present the scriptural Gospel in an organized manner.
Trust me, Evangelism Explosion is not tracts. No tracts are EVER used.
It is memorization of scripture, in context, to be shared one on one.
Immediately following the two questions is the scriptural Gospel presentation starting with Grace, using Romans 6:23.
Man is a sinner: Mt 5:48 Rom 3:23 Eph 2:8-9 John 1:1,14
I could go on and on, with the entire outline I memorized as a teen many years ago.
To memorize a program like this as a young man is a very good thing to do. It ingrains Scripture into one’s heart, and gives tools to share the Gospel with friends or strangers in a moments notice, to give a reason for the hope that lies withing us.
There are a lot of Brothers & Sisters in Christ, right now, who first heard the Gospel from someone following this outline of the Gospel. Isn’t God amazing? (The foolishness of an outline to make Disciples of Christ. Whodathunkit?)
I am not promoting this method, so much as saying it is a valid, proven method for people who are not so out-going. Once scripture is in you, just speak the truth that lies within you, and Voila! You are preaching the Gospel. (Probably with far more power than CJ has ever preached.)
Again, after I finished the class, I NEVER followed that outline again, I just learned, and knew the Gospel, and shared it from my heart.
That’s the Christian life.
(Not killing sin till your dead. I’m poking fun at SGM here, not you _.)
I hope this helps explain what I have tried to say.
“do you remember the stripper for Jesus? After they came in and watched her striptease act, she then told them about Jesus!!! Does that change your mind about the “whatever works” mentality?”
I have no idea what you are talking abut with that statement, except that I did a research paper on CULTS in high school, and a CULT did something like that. The Girls were called “Hookers for Jesus.” That’s NOT the Gospel. That’s not Christ.
When I said “No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!” I was talking about the actual Scriptural Gospel, not CULT behavior. NOT even CJ’s gospel.
The 4 spiritual laws, as I recall, (It has been over 30 years since I have read them) is scriptural. If someone is saved by reading that tract, PRAISE GOD!
Let me tell you a story:
A friend of mine was saved back in the 70′s. This new believer was convinced that the Holy Spirit wanted him to record an 8 track tape to loop a simple message, something like “Repent, and believe in Jesus to be saved!”
He was to mount big loud speakers on the top of his van, playing that tape, and drive from Lansing Michigan to Mackinaw island and back on a given Memorial Day weekend when that freeway would be bumper to bumper with vacation traffic.
He thought that he would be praying with people to receive Christ all weekend on the side of the road. It didn’t happen.
20 years later, he is a pastor of a small church and he hears how one of the people in his congregation was going up to northern Michigan one Memorial day weekend (20 years ago) and heard that message, was convicted of his sin, pulled over, prayed all by himself for God to forgive him, and has been living for Christ ever since.
They were united that day, (20 years later) and believe that perhaps that one convert was the whole point, and God rewarded that pastor 20 years later for his obedience.
No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!
The 2 question test is NOT an unbiblical approach.
Handing out tracts is not something I am personally comfortable with (cold contact), but one of those 4 spiritual laws booklets that you don’t think too much of was used by the Holy Spirit to help point my husband to the Lord the day he became a Christian.
If the Gospel is preached, some will be saved. I’m grateful for some methods that I find laughable, because God uses all types of “methods” to draw people to Himself. “All means”.
Of course, I was in a blatantly Christian hair metal band in the 80′s, so what do I know…
… except that we saw God save a lot of people.
1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
A tract is a condensed version of the Gospel. A few verses printed out on a piece of paper, sometimes with a testimony also printed on it. Some people that will never pick up a Bible and look at it will hold onto that little piece of paper that someone gave them or that they found. And the Holy Spirit will use those few verses to bring people into the Kingdom – indeed, His word will not return unto Him void. There is nothing unbiblical about bible verses and someone’s testimony printed out on a folded up 1/2 of 8 1/2″ x 11″ piece of paper. I’m sure if paper was readily available back in the NT, tracts in some form would’ve been used, since there were letters to the various churches…
(quote)Just wanting not to stray from the Biblical pattern of “how” to do things. There is nothing morally wrong with handing out tracks or starting a Christian rock band, or the 2 question test. I am just concerned with adding to the Scriptures. No condemnation intended.
Please forgive me for being an ass (as Jim so rightly and politely put it).(end quote)
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The Bible doesn’t tell us exactly how to do everything, where we get in trouble is when we insist that something has to be done a certain way in order to be “biblical”. As Canary said, whatever is said or done in the name of Jesus must be said or done in His love.
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So, in that regard…I forgive you for being a stubborn mule.
.
.
Just don’t do it again…
I’m trying to behave myself and not be snarky. I know Jim will appreciate that. I think we all agree that one size does not fit all. The point is that you said this:
(quote)I understand about opening the door to the Gospel presentation. But does that mean we use an unBiblical approach? I think most people are fed up with Christians and their religious tracts. When I lived in Daytona Beach, the Campus Crusades for Christ literally bombarded the beach with the “4 Spiritual Laws” tracts. They had movies at night about car crashes and dying before getting saved. It was more about fear of eternal punishment than the cross of Christ and becoming a child of God. Same thing goes for Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort. Definitely not the way the apostle Paul talked about being saved. Why the need to add man made techniques to telling someone about Jesus Christ? I never saw Jesus and the disciples going to the beach to hand out tracts. (end of quote)
I said in my previous post that handing out tracts is not my thing, but I am not going to say that it is wrong because that is not true. And that’s all I have to say on the matter.
I am one saved as a result of Campus Crusade’s outreach. So are countless thousands upon thousands of people. Watch out. God is MUCH bigger than us, and does what he will when his Word goes forth.
Sometimes we are jealous of the fruit of others. Do you truly believe, ______, that people have not come to faith in Jesus through the scriptures in tracts? Your criticism and arrogance in poo-pooing (proper word, I think, means “denigrating) the work of thousands of fellow sisters and brothers in Christ is breathtaking.
So…why is it an unbiblical approach to share the gospel? Jesus told his disciples to pack up and go out two by two. And back in the ’70′s and ’80′s, when I was on the beach in Daytona with the dorky movie and the slo-mo football, all of American were dorks. It was the 1970′s, after all. Only Jim was not dorky. And neither was his band. Probably.
Why the heck is this such an issue? And how do hookers or strippers compare to young believers who are trying to share the gospel? Honestly, ______, I think your arguments are bizarre. Fun, but bizarre. Using a tract as a way to share the gospel is akin to smoking or gambling…what the heck?
It seems like you have great success in sharing the gospel, that you have seen much fruit and many people coming to faith in Christ, probably have a gift of evangelism. Could you elaborate? I’m (really) unclear about the proper biblical way to share the gospel if it is not trusting in God to lead as he wills and using scripture to proclaim the glories of the Lord.
As others have said, let’s just be. Let others be. Let the Holy Spirit do work.
God used Charles Manson’s right hand man “Tex Watson”, to reach my cold heart. After reading his bought “Will you Die For Me? I was convinced that if God could forgive someone as evil as Watson then He could forgive me, and I thought I was too far gone.
I had a friend tell me that he was stoned out of his mind listening to a Pat Benatar album when she sang “Treat Me Right”, and he immediately fell to his knees and repented because he said he felt it was Jesus speaking to him through what she sang. Today, 30 years later, he is an elder in a community church.
I had someone ask me “you and you’re wife reach so many people for Christ, what is your formula?”
I said “Formula?, the Beatles had it right when they sang “All You Need is Love”, because if you don’t love the lost and see them as God does, you will have no desire to see them worshiping along side you for eternity. (I just scanned back and saw that I plagiarized Canary)
I also do love the quote that was probably mentioned earlier in this dialog- ” Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” Francis of Assisi
If people see you come at them as some sort of quota they see right through it. That’s probably why I don’t like the Jack Chic track stuff, but I’m sure someone somewhere got saved reading one. Like I always say “with a shotgun, even a blind hunter’s gonna get a deer eventually”
I came to be interested in Jesus through the movie “Jesus Christ, Super Star” – talk about a faulty gospel – and yet the gospel was in there somewhere. It wasn’t too many years after watching that movie as a young teen that I accepted the Lord into my heart. Unfortunately, legalistic churches got hold of me. Didn’t learn about grace till mid-life. Sad, huh?
Paul, I stand corrected about the quote I attributed to Martin Luther (preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words). I read it in one of his writings – must have been quoting Saint Francis.
Jim–you must just pee in a jug under your desk, since you spend so much time coming up with new unique people to be every day. You certainly must not be able to come up from the basement to visit the restroom.
Do ya call pizza or Chinese in? Because I’m realizing that you and Carole must tag-team? Sit next to each other down there in the murk, just pounding away.
I have it. You and Carole and Guy and Kris all help each other out.
Makes total sense to me.
RT-actually, I’m Jim, Carole, Kris, Guy, John Immel, and all of our commenters. My disorder runs so deep that I’m responding to you, even though I am you.
Don’t ask how I post from 40000 computers.
Beautiful…Jim… Yes there is a problem in Sovereign Grace Ministries. Yes it is in Your Local Church. Especially if You found yourself under the care and leadership of any D a n n y.
Good nite All.
Jim~
WOW i didnt know it was going to be unique visitors. That is incredible!!!!!!!!! I believe that you and carol and kris are doing a great job!!!!!!
Jim, take a (deep and humble) bow! Brilliant!
Jim said, ” My disorder runs so deep that I’m responding to you, even though I am you.”
Great stuff.
Thanks for the post. I feel so . . . . so unique.
Is it unique visitors or unique visits? On my own blog stats, there is a difference. If a person visits at two different times during a day, separated by at least a half hour (?) it counts as two separate visits. Some people visit more than once a day, so that would bump the numbers up a bit. However, your stats do NOT account for all the people like me who subscribe to the posts and comments via Google Reader and/or e-mail. If those were added in, that would probably raise your numbers significantly.
Charlie, please lay off on Danny. He’s trying. I don’t think any of us would want to be under the same scrutiny.
Vita-good question. Here’s what the host says:
What do these statistics show me?
This analysis summarizes multiple page views of an individual visitor into unique visits. A visitor is counted only when bringing up at least one page and taking no longer than 30 minutes between individual pages.
What does this tell me?
You know how many unique visits are made to your website and at which times.
The only data available to me is unique visits and total pageviews. I’ve always assumed that it was unique visitors, as you described above, as I use a large, popular hosting company, and marketers only care about two things-impressions (page views) and unique visitors. My hosting firm caters to business owners, and as someone who has sold web ads, the “unique visits” data you receive is irrelevant to marketers.
Jim, thanks for clarifying. The info in your comment that came through on the e-mail feed is shorter than what is on the blog. I’m assuming you added some. So any of the Refuge folks out there who are getting the comments by e-mail might want to check in on the blog to see the extra stuff.
I was thinking http://www.statcounter.com, which I use, did both unique visits and unique visitors, but it doesn’t. It counts it as a separate visitor if the person comes back later in the day. So it’s pretty much the same as yours. BTW, I get a fair amount of traffic linking into my blog from Refuge readers all over the country. I can assure people that they aren’t all coming from Jim and his supposed thousands of aliases!
My own IP address changes frequently –maybe every week or so? – and even “locates” me in other cities within a hundred miles or so. I never know quite where I am, according to Statcounter!
Another thing I learned from reading the Statcounter page about cookies, AOL, and ‘dynamic web proxy’ that can skew results:
How do the Summary Stats work?
The ‘Summary Stats’ determines whether a visitor has been to your website before by using a cookie. So if a user has cookies disabled we have no way of knowing if they are unique or not, and will by default be considered unique. However the majority of visitors have cookies enabled.
To make up for relying on cookies in the summary stats, the rest of the stats are based on your detailed log analysis of the last xxx number of pageloads. The uniqueness in this case is based on your visitors’ IP addresses. This method works very well for the majority, but yet again there is an exception. AOL users, and visitors who use what is known as a ‘dynamic web proxy’ that changes each time they access a webpage. So if a single AOL user visits 7 webpages on your website it will likely come up as 7 different IP addresses!
Both cookies and IP addresses have their strengths and weaknesses for determining the uniqueness of a visitor. It is impossible to be 100% accurate the entire time, but with the Standard StatCounter Project you get the best of both worlds. Cookies for the ‘Summary Stats’ and IP addresses for the ‘Detailed Log Analysis’!
~~~
As I try to remind myself when I look at my blog stats, the main thing is not how many people are reading my blog every day, but what they find when they get there and how it will affect them. I always try to think of who all is in my audience, and how they might be struggling with life. Some might need a challenge and a kick in the pants to get moving, and some might need the healing balm. That’s the goal of Refuge, too, isn’t it? “A haven for castaways, a call for reform.” And everyone needs the truth and love of Jesus.
Vida,
I used to post stats because some SGM pastors were full of beans regarding the blogs. In the early days, aside from the standard “it’s full of sin” declaration, it was said that the blogs were insignificant. I posted stats to let the guys know, “a lot of people are reading this stuff.”
I have no idea why what’s his name brought up the traffic issue, but wanted to give him what he asked for. I don’t check stats very often, not even monthly, as its become a moot point. A lot of people read survivors and refuge, and SGM leadership knows it.
Jim, I just realized my comment came across as being critical of counting blog visitors. Sorry about that! I think stats are very valid. My last paragraph was a philosphical P.S. , not questioning by you or anyone else looks at the numbers. I think this numerical information is actually quite significant and I was glad to see it. Like I said, I’m also wondering about the people behind the stats — what they are thinking, where they are coming from, etc. Whoever you all are, folks, GRACE and MERCY to you! If you are hurting, here is my little word-offering to you: Disillusioned and Disappointed? Take It to Jesus!
Blessings, Vida Savta
Oops, should have read “questioning why.”
Vita-no worries here. I didn’t see your comment as critical. I think defining questions are good, particularly since I’ve been accused of inventing numbers by whatever his name was.
Vita,
Nope, I still experience the ruin of lives. I am safe to say it here. Sovereign Grace has big problems especially if you are under the care of any D A N N Y. I was reciently thrashed by one of your people. I am doing well outside of the church, but suffer with the saints….
I believe Christians in Sovereign Grace have only seen the start. Keep reading…more truth to come.
Whoops-dweeb just got banned, just for being an ass. I think “just being an ass” is a new reason for being banned, as general assness is a symptom of a koolaid OD, but dweeb took it to a whole new low.
Bye dweeb. Although you hide like a little girl behind a screen name and a hotmail account, you know exactly who I am. Anytime you want to speak face to face, you know how to reach me.
It is too bad that dweeb couldn’t have engaged in the discussions on this blog in a more civilized manner rather than him needing to be banned.
Sometimes when one sees the truth it can hurt and one can act like you indicate “dweeb” was doing. I am sure he doesn’t like someone pointing out the problems with what he sees as a “perfect world.” That is quite threatening to him.
Interesting! Honestly I thought whats-his-name treated Jim the way a certain frmr exec pastor has been reported to treating people who brought “observations’ – that is, to lash out and attack the so-called sinner/observer in an effort to deflect. I can’t see that certain ‘shepherd’ stooping to the level of assness tho. ;o) altho he was anonymous….. I would hope a legit leader would have the character to talk to Jim directly.
More on banning-
I’m in an email exchange with dweeb from MLC. The ball is in his court, as all he has to do is call me, and if we come to an agreement, he can come back here and continue to embarrass MLC to his heart’s content.
I won’t share his side of a private conversation, but everyone here knows that he’s very hung up on our traffic. I’ve told him that I’ll give Josh P access to my hosting account to allow a third party to “audit” our traffic.
“…he can come back here and continue to embarrass MLC to his heart’s content.”
Mwaaaahaaaahaaa. I don’t know why, but that just cracked me up.
Dweeb, get it together and come on back. Speaking the truth to each other can be intoxicating! You might be the one that changes minds and hearts with your winsome arguments and proper handling of the Word.
Alas, poor DweebMLC and his ilk—– priority reaction to discredit the “voices” which
expose the sgm overseers (formerly apostles) and their destructive ‘polity’—–
and all while self-blindfolded.
The antecdote, of course, would be to remove the blinders from eyes and ears and want to see and know truths. Ya know, like in a court of law where the witness and victims are on the stand to testify how they have been assaulted — and there is proof. To believe or to deny, I suppose, is the sgm choice. sgmChurch alleigance trumping truth—scarey.
I’m afraid that truly TRULY ‘speaking the Truth in LOVE’ has been lost in this population.
Sadly LOVE has been so eclipsed by sin-sniffing. But as Waters has said, what is really terrifying is if defending the sgmchurch system is allowed or required to trump the Truth.
Jim said – “but dweeb took it to a whole new low.”
Aw- let ‘em back. How bad could it be?
This will all take off again with a whole new lineup after the family meeting on the 7th -looking forward to the spin on Wednesday night. Will it be “openness” like they promised or more of the same? From discussions I’ve had, it should be an interesting meeting unless they censor the “open Mike”. Wouldn’t want to hear what the members really feel.
My money is on “more of the same”
Maybe they’ll “Matthew 18″ anyone that disagrees with their decrees.
Naus…
Dweeb, or his family members have been posting under different names since January. His first post as dweeb was from the panhandle on June 21, although he lives in the Orlando area.
Maybe a family vacation? Maybe a visit to Niceville-who knows….
If he wants to join in the conversation, all he has to do is call me.
Jim
From worship this morning:
“Shall I take from Your hand Your blessings
Yet not welcome any pain
Shall I thank You for days of sunshine
Yet grumble in days of rain
Shall I love You in times of plenty
Then leave You in days of drought
Shall I trust when I reap a harvest
But when winter winds blow, then doubt
Oh let Your will be done in me
In Your love I will abide
Oh I long for nothing else as long
As You are glorified
Are You good only when I prosper
And true only when I’m filled
Are You King only when I’m carefree
And God only when I’m well
You are good when I’m poor and needy
You are true when I’m parched and dry
You still reign in the deepest valley
You’re still God in the darkest night”
Chuck
Chuck, Though you posted this song lyrics to Jim, I want to thank you — beautiful and rich lyrics encompassing the Christian journey. Especially the last 2 verses:
“You still reign in the deepest valley, You’re still God in the darkest night.” Amen!
“sgmChurch alleigance trumping truth”
Nothing new under the sun.
Shank did that to us back in 2003.
There is a battle between Truth and deception going on right now.
(I know who wins too. I read the end of the book.)
RT,
Your first post almost had me peeing in my pants.
I don’t care who you are, ….. THAT’S FUNNY!
Jim,
Would be happy to help dweeb out by conducting a third-party audit.
JP
Josh,
Thanks. Per my email to you this morning, if you call me this week, I’ll give you log in info. You’ll be able to see exactly what I see.
See how special you are, dweeb? I’m giving a member of MLC, who I would imagine is not a giant fan of what I’m doing here, complete access to my cpanal.
I think Josh is a third party that you’ll find acceptable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....r_embedded
Off topic — here’s a clip of somebody impersonating the Ceej.
Jim~
I’m kinda confused, why are you bending over backwards for this idiot? I mean i really don’t understand you don’t have to prove anything to him. If he chooses to live in denial about his current lifestyle then let him. Its your site, and you have to do whats write in your eyes. I just don’t see how battling with a Koolaid drinking, truth hating, let me call my care group leader and tell him i farted in my car this morning kinda guy. I just do not see the point in it, I guess you do have your reasons.
I gotta tell ya, at first glance, those numbers kinda had me doing a double take.
I mean, really, it looks like an average of 1300/day.
Now on any given Sunday there might be an average of 1300 people filling seats in any given SGM church from sea to shining sea, and again, maybe, maybe not so many filling chairs in the care groups later that week.
But this is every day.
Now I don’t record the screen names here so I don’t know, but there are probably a few dozen people regularly posting here, and a few more who pop in from time to time.
That means the balance is people just reading (not posting.)
Do you think that SGM get’s its message out to that many people, every day?
If so, at what cost?
We are just a hand full of people in our pajamas, (maybe peeing in bottles under our desks,) talking amongst ourselves.
Okay, we are not peeing in bottles! I’m just still chuckling over RT’s post.
Nothing wrong with Jim answering an outrageous accusation with facts.
I personally wondered myself, from time to time, just how much traffic this blog gets.
How does that Proverb go? “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, but answer a fool as his folly deserves.”
I think a fool got his answer.
Wow, Square Peg.
When you watch someone else mimick CJ, the idiosyncrasies are even more obvious. So odd.
I felt like I was watching someone mimic the ”nakedness” of the “emperor” before the crowd and they still couldn’t see it. What’s even sadder (and odder) are the SGM men who genuinely work to imitate such indiosyncrasies in their own communication style.
pdiwho – it took me 30 seconds to open stats, take a screen shot, and upload the pic. If ANYONE thinks I’m inventing stats, I’m happy to have someone they respect have a look for themselves. It’ll take five minutes.
Defender – traffic has always differed greatly from comments. I’m sure it’s the same at survivors.
Rourke is one of MacArthur’s boys, I think he’s actually on staff at Grace Church (where John MacArthur pastors.) Not a Sovereign Grace guy. He’s just a super good impersonator
.
Jim,
I always expected there would be more readers than posters, but, WOW!
That is quite a lot of readers.
Anyhow, thanks Jim, for giving us a place to converse.
Freedom of speech. Whodathunkit?
PDIWHO!
I choked on my Diet Coke: “a Koolaid drinking, truth hating, let me call my care group leader and tell him i farted in my car this morning kinda guy.”
Hysterical. Thanks for the laugh.
Folks,
I can say with certainty that Jim is not making anything up. The stats are as Jim has presented them. However, I will say that stats can be misleading (I do technology evaluations on a regular basis, including website evaluations, and find that web stats are misunderstood frequently). Since my priority is to my customers that pay me to manage their technology, I’ll get around to offering Jim a detailed evaluation when time permits. He can then post the results if he chooses. In the mean time, I can confirm what everyone here already knows (except for dweeb): Jim is not lying about his web stats.
On a side note, I must admit that it was tempting to hit the delete button when I was logged in today, Jim. Or maybe just a simple href of sgmrefuge.com over to sovereigngraceministries.org ;)
Josh P
Ah, Josh… Tsk! Tsk! for those naughty, naughty thoughts!
Just kidding… thank you for taking the time to do this. We “may” (LOL!) disagree on SGM issues, but I know you are an honorable man… and you proved it once again by not listening to that little guy on your shoulder to hit the delete button.
To DfMLC… (I know you’re still reading!) I understand your desire to defend your church… but the way you went about it (calling Jim a liar and spewing your anger and allegations all over the place, not to mention your filthy, profanity laden emails that were sent to Jim) was not the right venue. You ended up looking like… well, what Jim called you. I hope you have learned a much-needed lesson… never accuse someone of lying (or anything else) unless you have facts to back up your accusations.
You hurt your cause, DfMLC. Instead of making MLC and SGM look and smell like a rose, you have left a terrible stench. Not your intent, I’m sure, but it is the end result. Happy with yourself?
Profanity?
Aw, MLM (MetroLifeMember). That makes me sad. Jesus loves you, you know?
Our dear dear big Brother came to give us Life abundantly. The Father LOVES you and me SO much. The Holy Spirit will guide us and speak to our hearts.
You need to spend some time with Him.
Someone expressed concern that I gave Josh P access to my host account. Please understand that the host account is completely disconnected from the blog. There is no way that anyone could access anyone’s private info from my host’s cpanel.
PK has had access to the back end of the blog from time to time, and I think canary moderated while Carole and I were away once. I trust them both completely. No one else has ever had backend access. Your personal info is safe.
What Josh was able to see was similar to the image I posted at the top of this thread. He did me (and dweeb) a favor, and if his analysis shows that I’m misinterpreting our traffic, he’ll be doing me a favor, as I have no desire to misrepresent our stats.
No worries, gang. Be at peace.
I couldn’t imagine that you would jeopardize the security of others while inviting Josh to audit. Honestly I didn’t give it a secont thought!
and as for this “side note”: On a side note, I must admit that it was tempting to hit the delete button when I was logged in today, Jim. Or maybe just a simple href of sgmrefuge.com over to sovereigngraceministries.org ;)
While that was kind of clever or cute, Josh, I would say be careful what you wish for!
It’s well-noted that no such freedom for exchanges, replies and conversation exists on the aforementioned website blogs! So while it would be cute to have the refuge inside the door, so to speak, it would CLEARLY not be welcomed by your brothers on that site!
;o)
So could Josh have (theoretically) deleted the blog? Or “href’d” sgmrefuge? (what would that’ve done anyways?)
Ellie,
Josh could have done some damage. He not only could have hurt the blog, but could have also hurt some business domains I own. He’s not that kind of guy.
Well, I know I can trust your judgment, Jim. I just wasn’t sure if Josh was teasing about a real (theoretical, since he’s trustworthy) possibility. (I’m kinda gullible sometimes… )
What’s a href’d? Other than slang for a big cow?
Jim, did dweeb-or-whatever-his-name-is concede your point about the original traffic and the foolishness of impuning your integrity?
just wondering……
No
Oh I highly suspect SGM leadership is concerned about information shared on these forums, including SGMSurvivors and Tyranny. Wanna know how I know?
It came to light on some forum or other that SGM’s membership primarily grows by siphoning off Christians from other surrounding churches. SGM is the octupus with a taste for Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Presbyterians…..anyone who wants something new like being simultaneously reformed and charismatic and well, uh, better. (sarc)
I mean just being a Biblically-centered Christian doesn’t give the same ego tingles.
So I have a friend attending an SGM church who casually mentioned that her pastor is all of a sudden getting serious about evangelizing in the community. This pastor said that all they’ve been attracting are Christians attending other churches, so they’re going to start going outside that circle now. I think she said they’re starting a class at church to teach people how to bring in people who don’t know Christ.
Wow. Uh, how long has SGM been established now?
Yeah, they’re reading.
Hmmmmmmmmmm they tried that 15 or so years ago… as I recall the pastor that started that program was quickly degifted.
I remember various “outreaches” that failed to convert anyone. I remember taking classes about being “brief and amazing” when sharing the gospel. The problem was, there was no power in our methods. No power in our words. The world can tell when they meet the real Jesus or just a pale imitation. That’s all we were – pale imitations of the Lord.
Canary,
You got me thinking, if there is power in the Gospel, and nobody responded, ……. I wonder just what was shared that SGM called a gospel?
(Or was it an attempt to show just how amazing SGM is to sgm-ers? And world just doesn’t care.)
KWIM?
There are lots of gospels, but only one true Gospel.
I don’t know, Defender. It’s possible. I went through “training” on how to share the gospel, what verses to use, even on how to write out my own track. We were suppose to go up to strangers and ask if we could talk to them. What was lacking was heart – there was so much mind stuff – the verses, the technique, etc. yet little love. I just shared the good news with my 15 year old again last week and there was certainly not only love but the Holy Spirit gave me the words. The results are so different when you share something that you actually HAVE. Does that make sense?
Yes it does make sense.
The true Gospel comes out in our lives, because we are changed, and effects us that way.
(Partly, my question was rhetorical.)
When I was growing up in the Lutheran Church, our particular congregation used the “Kennedy Evangelism Training Method”. It was a 16 week course in learning specific verses, and conversation methods in sharing the Gospel. I remember our team making cold calls to people’s houses, sitting in the living rooms and sharing the Gospel.
Our church grew exponentially. After several years, many of the people in the congregation cited that they were saved by those living room visits, and became members of that church. (Just a different twist on the “packaged Gospel”.)
Now eventually, that congregation morphed into celebrity worship of the pastor,and nepotism has kept it going. I remember hearing in the late 80′s, that the pastor had died of brain cancer, and his son-in-law took over the church.
The Two Question Test?
O wow, DB, I forgot that one. Can’t remember what the questions were though! Was one of them “what do you think it takes to make it to heaven?”
Q.1.) “If you were to die tonight, do you think you would go to Heaven?”
Q. 2.) “If you did die tonight, and God asked you ‘Why should I let you into my heaven?’ What would you say?”
As per D. James Kennedy’s Evangelism Explosion.
For the “whatever it is worth department” –
The world is looking for a demonstation of Christ not an explanation. Jesus built a platform for his message by being first a servant and second a lover of sinners. The church has struggled with both of these.
We are not perceived as serving the world but judging the world. (not totally accurate but you get the picture). The expression of His Father was His glory — graciousness, compassion, mercy, love, kindness, reliable, and forgiving of ALL sin, iniquity and rebellion. We are His glory (or the expression of His glory) in the earth – sinners should encounter the glory of God in us to them. I don’t think the world sees Jesus when they see the (institutionalized) church.
Finally – the one’s that Jesus had a problem with were the self-righteous not the needy. And the self-righteousness had a problem with Him. It seems to me the church is seen as the self-righteousness not the expression of God’s glory in the earth (as the glory of God is in us – Christ Himself).
Last (this falls in line with the “just one more scripture” method ) – We will be most effective in reaching the world with the gospel when we learn who we are and the power of His righteousness to love and serve the world as He did (not in how well we learn to “share the gospel”. If we are to change the world (which we are called to do), it will be as servants of mankind (even the enemies of God – as he did us when we were enemies).
but that’s me!!
Word Irv.
It’s just like do as I say not as I do parenting.
Kids learn how to relate by observing the people in their environment.
The hurting world learns about Jesus by the way we Christians live our lives.
And, in general, we are not doing such a swift job.
I remember the pressure to go out to the mall with the, “Two Question Test.” Oh, we had to go to special classes to qualify and take a final exam at the end (I got a 94 instead of a 100 because I asked a couple questions using my own words instead of regurgiating the script.) We were told the success rate was high.
I couldn’t bring myself to do it, I just couldn’t. And I’m extroverted but it just looked so contrived.
Does anyone know of anyone that has been converted and established in a local church as a result of this particular technique?
D.B., I never saw the two question test work on anyone. But that’s me. You were discerning enough not to try it. I, on the other hand, tried it a couple of times before I said to myself, “This ain’t working” and quit. My sharing the gospel with strangers at the Mall was “brief and amazing” – brief because I didn’t last long, and amazing that I ever thought it might “work”.
Way to say it, Irv. I have been thinking a while that Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. We should be of the same mind and heart. Unfortunately, a lot of judging of the world went on in the PDI that I knew. I’m ashamed to say I was part of that. Now I am free to love and live the gospel. Judgment Day will come soon enough and I, thankfully, won’t be the Judge! We have the freedom to walk in His love with all people. ( I am not talking about accepting sin, but loving sinners regardless – I’ve put down my stones)
I love what Martin Luther wrote, “Share the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.”
DB,
“Does anyone know of anyone that has been converted and established in a local church as a result of this particular technique?”
I know of people who claim to be converted by that method, as I said in my earlier post.
Not by me personally.
I never used that method except for in the class itself. This happened when I was 16 years old.
I have presented the Gospel to many in my life, and a few times I used words.
I recall several times, back when I worked in the Construction industry, when co-workers would ask If I were a christian or something like that, because I “didn’t smoke, or drink, or didn’t raise no hell, or nothin’ like that.” And It would open up opportunities to discuss the differences between “razin’ hell” and Jesus’ work to keep us out of hell. Or something like that. Can’t say if the guys were saved, don’t know where they are today. I don’t know if I planted seed, or watered it, or if it was harvested since. I just responded to the moment.
I didn’t have to ask those two questions.
These kinds of encounters were repeated many times in my life. I could tell when I was interacting with someone who was wrestling with God, because they would sometimes, without provocation, turn on me. I believe that the spirit in them was uncomfortable with the Holy Spirit in me. Therefore I would not respond unkindly, they were in torment.
It is a Spiritual Battle, that’s for sure.
The Gospel is best shared from our lives.
When we are truly living in the Grace of God, the Gospel is displayed.
(Not a contrived life like SGM demands,)
There were times when co-workers came to me and told me how my words or example changed their life, when I had no idea I ever did such a thing.
One such time a female co-worker was talking about how if she ever got pregnant, she would for sure get an abortion. I said “Well, just remember that you may have to give an account to God for that decision someday.” It wasn’t given in a judgmental tone, or anything like that. But, a year later she came to me to say that she had lost so much sleep over my comment, that she now knows that she could never do such a thing as abort a child, if she ever got pregnant.
Now that is not a presentation of the Gospel, but you never know how God is working in a person’s life. It was 15 years ago at Ft Belvoir VA. For all I know, someone else planted more seed and she is a believer worshiping today (hopefully not in an SGM church) and we will rejoice together at the feast of the Lamb.
Yeah, I’m not into “caned” gospel presentations either.
You know…however, whenever, with whomever, using whatever…let’s just all encourage each other to be ready in and out of season to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Some people have great success being taught how to get to the point, some people have a better ability to weave the gospel into conversations.
You may not be into canned presentations, you may be into them. Either way we are commanded to hare the gospel, and I am guilty of not always doing so. I am sad about this.
Let’s rejoice anytime the Word goes forth, because it never comes back void.
Anything done with purity and passion can be effective.
I’ve known people who have come to Christ through Evangelism Explosion.
We are treading on very thin ground here. As a sister in Christ, I urge you to focus on heresy and abuse in the church, not on people who pour their lives out to share the gospel.
Remember that Jesus always asked questions, “Who do you say that I am?”
If this approach doesn’t work for you, don’t use it. But let’s not shoot each other over it.
______ Brother,
The two question test is used as an ice breaker to open up a conversation with a total stranger. It has nothing to do with the Gospel. (I agree, the premise of the questions is not biblical, but you ask the questions to people who may know nothing of biblical things.)
It just gets a conversation going in the direction that can be turned to the Gospel.
It is for people who need a comfortable approach.
Truth be told, people I know who used that approach, no longer follow the “script” because they are comfortable sharing their faith in a natural way.
I’m not going to knock the Evangelism Explosion Program merely because it is canned, nor because I do not use it myself. BUT, People have been led to Christ by Christians who were otherwise not quite comfortable doing so in a casual way.
No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!
I think the original point here might have been that SGM had a canned program, that proclaimed ….. something…..not the true Gospel.
Wow RT - I certainly didn’t mean to communicate that I was shooting anyone down for preaching the gospel. That is the antithesis of what I live and believe. I was just following the spirit of the thrad.
I am very grateful to those who preach the gospel and personally I will use whatever works depending on my situation and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Jesus met people at their point of need not at His point of need – I personally like His example as have done accordingly.
In a very poor way, I was trying to communicate my concern about the way we as Christians represent Christ to the world that ultimately hinders the gospel of Christ.
I was attempting to say that Christ’s example of coming to serve mankind and loving even his enemies (of which we all were) are powerful in our expression to the world. When we serve those in the world (our neighbors, it gives a greater weight to our message.
I do believe that the church’s demonstration of our life with Christ has hindered the work of those who are on the front lines day in and day out.
Anyway — I appreciate your challenge to my comments – hopefully this brings some clarity of what is in my heart on not just my words.
I agree that using scare tactics to present the Gospel is annoying and not profitable, and certainly not scriptural.
The Evangelism Explosion “method” may not be your cup of tea, but it does present the scriptural Gospel in an organized manner.
Trust me, Evangelism Explosion is not tracts. No tracts are EVER used.
It is memorization of scripture, in context, to be shared one on one.
Immediately following the two questions is the scriptural Gospel presentation starting with Grace, using Romans 6:23.
Man is a sinner: Mt 5:48
Rom 3:23
Eph 2:8-9
John 1:1,14
I could go on and on, with the entire outline I memorized as a teen many years ago.
To memorize a program like this as a young man is a very good thing to do. It ingrains Scripture into one’s heart, and gives tools to share the Gospel with friends or strangers in a moments notice, to give a reason for the hope that lies withing us.
There are a lot of Brothers & Sisters in Christ, right now, who first heard the Gospel from someone following this outline of the Gospel. Isn’t God amazing? (The foolishness of an outline to make Disciples of Christ. Whodathunkit?)
I am not promoting this method, so much as saying it is a valid, proven method for people who are not so out-going. Once scripture is in you, just speak the truth that lies within you, and Voila! You are preaching the Gospel. (Probably with far more power than CJ has ever preached.)
Again, after I finished the class, I NEVER followed that outline again, I just learned, and knew the Gospel, and shared it from my heart.
That’s the Christian life.
(Not killing sin till your dead. I’m poking fun at SGM here, not you _.)
I hope this helps explain what I have tried to say.
“do you remember the stripper for Jesus? After they came in and watched her striptease act, she then told them about Jesus!!! Does that change your mind about the “whatever works” mentality?”
I have no idea what you are talking abut with that statement, except that I did a research paper on CULTS in high school, and a CULT did something like that. The Girls were called “Hookers for Jesus.” That’s NOT the Gospel. That’s not Christ.
When I said “No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!” I was talking about the actual Scriptural Gospel, not CULT behavior. NOT even CJ’s gospel.
The 4 spiritual laws, as I recall, (It has been over 30 years since I have read them) is scriptural. If someone is saved by reading that tract, PRAISE GOD!
Let me tell you a story:
A friend of mine was saved back in the 70′s. This new believer was convinced that the Holy Spirit wanted him to record an 8 track tape to loop a simple message, something like “Repent, and believe in Jesus to be saved!”
He was to mount big loud speakers on the top of his van, playing that tape, and drive from Lansing Michigan to Mackinaw island and back on a given Memorial Day weekend when that freeway would be bumper to bumper with vacation traffic.
He thought that he would be praying with people to receive Christ all weekend on the side of the road. It didn’t happen.
20 years later, he is a pastor of a small church and he hears how one of the people in his congregation was going up to northern Michigan one Memorial day weekend (20 years ago) and heard that message, was convicted of his sin, pulled over, prayed all by himself for God to forgive him, and has been living for Christ ever since.
They were united that day, (20 years later) and believe that perhaps that one convert was the whole point, and God rewarded that pastor 20 years later for his obedience.
No mater how it is done, if Christ is proclaimed, PRAISE GOD!
The 2 question test is NOT an unbiblical approach.
Handing out tracts is not something I am personally comfortable with (cold contact), but one of those 4 spiritual laws booklets that you don’t think too much of was used by the Holy Spirit to help point my husband to the Lord the day he became a Christian.
Method/schmethod.
If the Gospel is preached, some will be saved. I’m grateful for some methods that I find laughable, because God uses all types of “methods” to draw people to Himself. “All means”.
Of course, I was in a blatantly Christian hair metal band in the 80′s, so what do I know…
… except that we saw God save a lot of people.
1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
A tract is a condensed version of the Gospel. A few verses printed out on a piece of paper, sometimes with a testimony also printed on it. Some people that will never pick up a Bible and look at it will hold onto that little piece of paper that someone gave them or that they found. And the Holy Spirit will use those few verses to bring people into the Kingdom – indeed, His word will not return unto Him void. There is nothing unbiblical about bible verses and someone’s testimony printed out on a folded up 1/2 of 8 1/2″ x 11″ piece of paper. I’m sure if paper was readily available back in the NT, tracts in some form would’ve been used, since there were letters to the various churches…
Jim,
…and *I* was trying not to be snarky….
Maybe we can all agree that whatever is said or done in the name of Jesus must be said or done in His love. Without that love, there is no power.
Ellie
Thanks Canary!
(quote)Just wanting not to stray from the Biblical pattern of “how” to do things. There is nothing morally wrong with handing out tracks or starting a Christian rock band, or the 2 question test. I am just concerned with adding to the Scriptures. No condemnation intended.
Please forgive me for being an ass (as Jim so rightly and politely put it).(end quote)
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The Bible doesn’t tell us exactly how to do everything, where we get in trouble is when we insist that something has to be done a certain way in order to be “biblical”. As Canary said, whatever is said or done in the name of Jesus must be said or done in His love.
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So, in that regard…I forgive you for being a stubborn mule.
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.
Just don’t do it again…
I’m trying to behave myself and not be snarky. I know Jim will appreciate that. I think we all agree that one size does not fit all. The point is that you said this:
(quote)I understand about opening the door to the Gospel presentation. But does that mean we use an unBiblical approach? I think most people are fed up with Christians and their religious tracts. When I lived in Daytona Beach, the Campus Crusades for Christ literally bombarded the beach with the “4 Spiritual Laws” tracts. They had movies at night about car crashes and dying before getting saved. It was more about fear of eternal punishment than the cross of Christ and becoming a child of God. Same thing goes for Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort. Definitely not the way the apostle Paul talked about being saved.
Why the need to add man made techniques to telling someone about Jesus Christ? I never saw Jesus and the disciples going to the beach to hand out tracts. (end of quote)
I said in my previous post that handing out tracts is not my thing, but I am not going to say that it is wrong because that is not true. And that’s all I have to say on the matter.
I am one saved as a result of Campus Crusade’s outreach. So are countless thousands upon thousands of people. Watch out. God is MUCH bigger than us, and does what he will when his Word goes forth.
Sometimes we are jealous of the fruit of others. Do you truly believe, ______, that people have not come to faith in Jesus through the scriptures in tracts? Your criticism and arrogance in poo-pooing (proper word, I think, means “denigrating) the work of thousands of fellow sisters and brothers in Christ is breathtaking.
So…why is it an unbiblical approach to share the gospel? Jesus told his disciples to pack up and go out two by two. And back in the ’70′s and ’80′s, when I was on the beach in Daytona with the dorky movie and the slo-mo football, all of American were dorks. It was the 1970′s, after all. Only Jim was not dorky. And neither was his band. Probably.
Why the heck is this such an issue? And how do hookers or strippers compare to young believers who are trying to share the gospel? Honestly, ______, I think your arguments are bizarre. Fun, but bizarre. Using a tract as a way to share the gospel is akin to smoking or gambling…what the heck?
It seems like you have great success in sharing the gospel, that you have seen much fruit and many people coming to faith in Christ, probably have a gift of evangelism. Could you elaborate? I’m (really) unclear about the proper biblical way to share the gospel if it is not trusting in God to lead as he wills and using scripture to proclaim the glories of the Lord.
As others have said, let’s just be. Let others be. Let the Holy Spirit do work.
What does this have to do with SGM???
Thanks for the chance to comment,
Love from RT, a fellow ass.
God used Charles Manson’s right hand man “Tex Watson”, to reach my cold heart. After reading his bought “Will you Die For Me? I was convinced that if God could forgive someone as evil as Watson then He could forgive me, and I thought I was too far gone.
I had a friend tell me that he was stoned out of his mind listening to a Pat Benatar album when she sang “Treat Me Right”, and he immediately fell to his knees and repented because he said he felt it was Jesus speaking to him through what she sang. Today, 30 years later, he is an elder in a community church.
I had someone ask me “you and you’re wife reach so many people for Christ, what is your formula?”
I said “Formula?, the Beatles had it right when they sang “All You Need is Love”, because if you don’t love the lost and see them as God does, you will have no desire to see them worshiping along side you for eternity. (I just scanned back and saw that I plagiarized Canary)
I also do love the quote that was probably mentioned earlier in this dialog- ” Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” Francis of Assisi
If people see you come at them as some sort of quota they see right through it. That’s probably why I don’t like the Jack Chic track stuff, but I’m sure someone somewhere got saved reading one. Like I always say “with a shotgun, even a blind hunter’s gonna get a deer eventually”
I came to be interested in Jesus through the movie “Jesus Christ, Super Star” – talk about a faulty gospel – and yet the gospel was in there somewhere. It wasn’t too many years after watching that movie as a young teen that I accepted the Lord into my heart. Unfortunately, legalistic churches got hold of me. Didn’t learn about grace till mid-life. Sad, huh?
Paul, I stand corrected about the quote I attributed to Martin Luther (preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words). I read it in one of his writings – must have been quoting Saint Francis.
YEP Paul…………exactly!