I’m glad it’s not 2006…
I have no idea whether or not CJ addressed what’s going on at MLC yesterday, as I only listened to a short part of the message. What I have is MLC’s account of what was said on June 6, posted below, with some editing. MLC stated the unedited version in front of children and guests on a Sunday morning, then sent the unedited text below to the Florida pastors and to MLC home group leaders.
___________
DJ: We have a serious situation that we need to make you aware of today. It would have been much more preferable to have been able to share this with you in the context of a family meeting but the circumstances have prevented that.
If you are our guest this morning or are new to the church, I would want you to know that we are a spiritual family. It is our sincere desire, when we go through difficult situations as a church family, to handle them in the most biblical and God-honoring way that we can. What you are witnessing this morning is a demonstration of our love and care for one another.
MN: Church, this morning I’ve got some news that’s connected with our family that I’d like to share with you. Today is my youngest son J’s last Sunday with us. This week, he will travel to Virginia, where he will begin a new job. As many of you would know, this is the only church home J has ever had.
In addition to that, on the following week, Saturday June 19th, J will be getting married. Now, I know that’s a lot of news to digest at one time, but there is more for me to share. These major events in J’s life are significantly tempered by the fact that_______ _____________.
We’ve known about this situation for several months now, and have been in very close contact with the _____________, as well as the pastoral team in the Sovereign Grace church there.
Obviously, this has been one of the most difficult and trying seasons for us as a family. But walking through this has caused me to examine more closely than ever my life and ministry. L and I have been examining our parenting. A key issue in all of this is our lack of listening to the patient voices of friends, leaders and members of this church that have appealed to us for a long time.
Scripture is clear that one of the qualifications for serving as an elder in a local church is this: “He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?”
We as a church, and I personally, take this passage very seriously. Over these last several weeks our leadership team as well as homegroup leaders and other members of the church have had many long and difficult discussions about this situation, about my parenting, and how it affects my role as an elder of this church. Our local leadership team has been patient with me as I’ve wrestled with my own sins in my parenting, and believe me that are several that I’m owning: laziness in my parenting, pride reflected in my love of reputation, and not listening to the council of others.
I don’t believe I’m seeing all I need to see at this point, but I’m trusting the Lord to open my eyes in the season ahead to all that He intends to reveal to me and us as we continue to seek him.
All concerned have been gracious to me and my family, and I greatly appreciate that. Our home group leaders have been carrying us in their hearts since they’ve heard the news and I’m very grateful for their care, concern, and prayers for us.
I’m grateful to God most of all because I see this as His kindness towards me to continue the work of conforming me into His image. I’m affected daily by the Gospel, as I preach it to myself, and benefit from the precious Truth that it is.
The good news is that J and X have confessed their sin and are moving aggressively towards the Lord in this season.
In conclusion, I’d like to say that If you have any observations for me and L concerning our parenting, or any other areas in our lives , please don’t hesitate to come to us and share them. And while this certainly is a difficult and challenging situation for us, please know that we definitely desire your prayers! Thank you.
DJ: Providentially, we had already set aside a week for prayer and fasting June 20-26. The details are in your bulletin but we’d also like to call the church together on that Wednesday night, the 23rd for a night for all of us to be able to pray together.
As we’ve walked through this situation with the N family here, as well as the family and leadership in (the young lady’s church), we’ve also been in close contact with Dave Harvey and CJ for council from these men who give extra-local care to our church. Some of the other pastors among our churches here in FL have been helping us as all. What a joy to not be independent and on our own at a time like this!
We do ask that you abstain for sharing this information in electronic forums such as Facebook, Twitter, and blogs because our purpose in sharing it with you is redemptive, not just informational. The Scripture gives us clear direction in Galatians 6:1 – “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
In this verse, the spiritual ones are those in whom the Spirit of God dwells, not a super-spiritual class of Christian. We are called to restore our brother in a spirit of gentleness. At the same time, let this be a sober warning to us all of the need to keep watch on ourselves.
We also ask for your prayer as we process the implications of this for M as an elder of this local church – which is the reason this needed to be brought to the entire church.
As soon as the N’s return from the wedding in _______, we will be walking M through a season of evaluation and discipline. It will be a time that is motivated by a desire to posture M to humbly receive all the Lord has for him.
Remember, discipline is redemptive – it is “proof” of our sonship. M will be relieved of his pastoral duties for a season for the purpose of seeking the Lord, spending time with his family and the study of
Scripture – particularly as it pertains to this situation.
We are planning a church-wide family meeting to follow up on all this with you as well as update you on the changes and responses that have been and are being made as a result of our recent season of assessment.
So please pray! The pastors, leaders, friends and family affected by this sin are humbling themselves before the Lord and seeking His face.
And now, let’s pray for the family and for J as we send him off to a new season of life.
_______________________________
I still have the same questions. Why is a pastor held accountable for the actions of his adult son, whose covering is Christ, not dad?
If this is the oral law at MLC, why did Danny get a pat on the back from CJ, and a promotion when his adult sinned in a way that although similar (sort of), was much more serious in regards to those effected by it?
I really don’t get it…
How mortifying.
So, the assumption is that everyone there that morning, every single person, every child, every visitor….are among “those who are spiritual” who should “restore” the sinner? Are you kidding me??
These poor, poor people.
Proverbs 17:9: He who covers over an offense promotes love,
but whoever repeats the matter separates close friends.
Really, you have to drag all this in front of a bunch of people who may not be for the young couple? Why??? Why not, as Ian and others remind us all the time, “just forgive and let go?”
These poor young adults!
This does bring about a very important thing: the obssessive need that SGM adults have to stay involved in their adult children’s lives.
Yet they ABSOLUTELY do not accept their own parents’ involvement in their lives.
Hypocrisy.
Mortification.
An unsaved visitor that morning would be horrified at this public cruelty.
This is nuts. Religious excess at its worst.
I am blown away by considering how this public humiliation and embarrassment will affect a wedding celebration, a honeymoon, and a marriage. God bless this couple. No matter what they did, they sure didn’t deserve to be publicly humiliated. And then the perpetrators have the gall to order that it not be made “more public.”
What purpose is this supposed to serve? How in the world can this be “redemptive”? How can “you who are spiritual” be taken to mean the entire church in a public setting? This young couple has the right to privacy! How horrible that someone is using this couple in order to make the dad a scapegoat. And this, from the very people who cry “gossip and slander” at the mere mention of someone’s public marital status.
Too late to go posting 95 theses on the door. “ Icabod “ is already written there.
And by the way, if you’re getting advice from CJ, et al, it’s not council. It’s counsel. But I’m sure they’ve already de-gifted whoever made that egregious error.
Sheesh. If I had any doubts before that these people had missed the boat and jumped off the pier, such doubts just dove into the deep end. For too many years, I was still willing to give them a pass. “They really didn’t mean it. They really had good intentions. They really THOUGHT they were doing the right thing.”
No, they didn’t. Where is their common sense? Where is their compassion? Where are their good manners? Where is their sense of propriety, of decorum, of discretion? Where is their love for Jesus and love for one another? Where is grace and mercy, forgiveness, and restoration?
Sheesh.
Jesus, please turn the bitter water of this debacle into fine wine for the wedding feast of this young couple. Lord, please protect them, and shower them with your grace and mercy. Help us all, for we have sinned, and fallen short of your glory. Bring revival to your church — in your precious and holy name, I pray.
Yes, RT, mortifying is the word. This whole scenario is deeply grievous…i feel struck and so saddened for this family.Truly, I am praying for them tonight—that they will be comforted and manifestedly held in the everlasting arms of our Lord. That they will know and sense the Hand of the Father lifting their chins to see His love filled eyes………
Those who came to the decision for this public ‘discipline’ (CJM, DJ, BP)– ——–
utterly repugnant
”Differing weights are an abomination to the Lord,
And a false scale is not good.” Prov 20:23
Personally this story sickens my spirit…..
RT said, “An unsaved visitor that morning would be horrified at this public cruelty.”
I agree and feel sort of sick reading this.
So….the church actually came back this past Sunday after that? Honestly, when I was “still in” I can see myself taking it all in and drinking the Kool-aid that what was done was normal. Thanks to God who, through his grace, has brought me out.
MN being put up front to ask the entire church to bring observations is really sickening.
They need to take the word Grace out of SGM
DJ – the reason for the blogs is redemptive, so really it is OK for everyone to post here. Thanks for playing!
Square Peg wrote, “This is nuts. Religious excess at its worst.” That about sums it up! No wonder the unchurched world remains unchurched. One can receive more compassion from the local mechanic.
I think the harshest people tend to harbor the greatest perversion in their own hearts.
Think of all the anti-gay politiccians that are actually closeted gays.
These people think the worst and react with so much harsh legalism because, if my theory is correct, they only have their own inner hearts to look at and what they see is frightening. Wake up SGM leadership; the rest of us aren’t that bad, most people are just run of the mill sinners, perhaps CJ and company *are* the worst amongst sinners.
Am I the only one seeing how immature this whole church service was? Their response reminds me of Lord of the Flies.
I keep envisioning how my two (godly) grandmothers would have handled this whole thing. Love, grace and strength. They would have been saddened by the display at this church and quietly walked away, grieved at the immaturity of the church leaders. Now that I think about it, the first time I told my Grandmother about an encounter at my SGM church, she thought it was terribly immature of them. I thought she just didn’t understand. Oh, if only I had listened to her. But I was 19 and sure I knew better than she did. Sad.
DB’s last line above (Wake up SGM leadership; the rest of us aren’t that bad, most people are just run of the mill sinners, perhaps CJ and company *are* the worst amongst sinners) reminded me of a Maya Angelou quote. It is one I’ve learned (the hard way) to heed. Now it perplexes me that none of us here seemed to have heeded the wisdom of it, nor possibly seen its application in this situation. “”The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them.” Someone says they are the worst, how do we respond?
I am horrified, ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED!!
RT and Square Peg, you nailed it!
This is like ”deja vu” – I feel like I’m sitting back in the pews of the churches I mentioned in the previous post. You have no idea how sick I feel right now.
Pray for this couple, folks. Please pray! They’ve been raised to see this as “loving” and I’m sure would defend it right now. The feelings of mortification and damage inflicted by the way this was handled will surface at some point and have to be dealt with. The couples damaged by such could start a blog of their own. What’s even sadder, some couples become just like those who mortified them…inflicting the same mortification on others.
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
SGM - please define “gentleness” for me.
I’m a member of MLC, have been for many, many years. There are things about this body that I love, especially many people that I love. In the past, I have supported the leadership, though I don’t believe I have been one to follow them blindly. I have experienced significant pain and what would probably be classified as “abuse” by those of you who regularly post here, but for various reasons which make sense to me, I have remained in the fellowship. At times, I felt that it was possible that in some ways the Lord would use my situations to serve these leaders by exposing their hypocrisy and over-arching style of pastoring.
I do not believe that DJ’s request that we abstain from posting concerning the situation was an absolute directive, but even if it was, I believe we have the freedom to make those choices for ourselves. A good friend once told me that “God draws, the Enemy pushes…” and a lot of what this leadership does feels like “pushing.”
Previously I made a statement on another thread, and I would like to reiterate the idea here. JN is an adult and worked two jobs and as a young adult, spent little time at home…probably similar to every other young adult in our church. The time he spent under his father’s guidance at this point in his life, was very, very limited. It is not reasonable to conclude that MN is somehow responsible for the immoral choices made by his adult son. On the other hand, JJ was directly accountable to DJ and the other pastors during the time of his unfaithful behavior. He was under the authority and oversight of this team of leaders and spent most of his daylight hours in meetings with them, serving with them, etc. It would seem obvious that DJ was far more accountable for the careless and sinful actions of one of his Pastors-In-Training and should have been called to account and faced discipline for allowing this pattern of sin to go undetected for years under his oversight.
None of us need worry too much. The Lord will deal with any hypocrisy and deception in time. I would be concerned if I were them because of Matthew 7:2, “For with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
One Foot-you nailed it.
One point of clarification. When I say abuse, I am very specifically referring to the abuse of pastoral authority. Overstepping their bounds. While some sheep have been abused in the literal sense of the term, that’s not what I’m referring to when I use the word.
Did I mention that you nailed it?
Thanks, Jim. I do believe that the issues are clear – for those who are seeing clearly. On the abuse thing…I am in agreement with your reference of “abuse of pastoral authority.” I have experienced that firsthand. It is extremely uncomfortable for me to think of any church member anywhere experiencing literal abuse.
Examining the Kool-aid
Reading through this excerpt has likewise turned my stomach. Truths bent, shaped and twisted like a Salvador Dali painting with just as much skill and artistry with the attempt at tricking the eye into seeing what is not there.
No one in any church should ever fail to closely examine what is said and taught. You are responsible for guarding your life and doctrine closely! Examine what you allow yourself to swallow. Ask questions. Listen CLOSELY! The way we guard is often directly related to perceived danger. A man who thinks there is no threat will often let his guard down and thusly exposes himself and those around him to great danger. What’s in that Kool-aid that you are about to swallow?
The core scriptural reason for MN stepping down:
“He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?
This scripture beckons questions. Is this a lifelong pattern? If so, why was MN brought on staff? How has MN responded to what was brought to him? Does the above scripture apply to the behavior of an adult son? How well does MN fulfill the entirety of requirements for an elder? Are things so out of line that he is not qualified to serve as an elder? Were the actions of his adult son the culminating event to years of poor household management?
Members of Metro, how much input did you have into this situation over the years? Or was it all closed door in spite of the impact on MN’s ability to “care for God’s church” Or was it over this one incident?
“We have a serious situation….”
Of course if it’s serious, we can bend scriptures…
If I understand Matthew 18 correctly, if the sinner is unrepentant after being repeatedly confronted, it is finally brought before the church. And yet MN states
“The good news is that J and X have confessed their sin and are moving aggressively towards the Lord in this season.”
Seems to me this statement would preclude a church wide meeting where the adult son’s sins are publicly displayed. I would also venture to say that a repentant couple aggressively pursuing God does not constitute a serious situation. In fact, I would further postulate that it speaks well of MN’s parenting.
I am left to conclude that the serious situation is MN stepping down. And that everything was so horribly wrong and MN such a risk that the only method to deal with his egregious sin was immediately (oh wait…months passed) dealing with it first thing Sunday morning!
“Circumstances prevented us from handling it biblically”.
Well, ok the exact quote was “It would have been much more preferable to have been able to share this with you in the context of a family meeting but the circumstances have prevented that.” I think my quote says the same thing, just more succinctly.
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, restore him gently…”
Write down your definition of “gently”. Reread the New Testament. Pay particular attention to how Jesus handled gently. Look at your definition. Does it line up? Does this handling of MN and his adult son line up?
“We are demonstrating love and care…”
My general life experience – If someone has to tell you what it is that they are demonstrating, they are usually not demonstrating it at all.
“Remember, discipline is redemptive – it is “proof” of our sonship.”
If it is from God it is, if it is misaligned with scripture it is abuse!
“We’ve also been in close contact with Dave Harvey and CJ for council from these men who give extra-local care to our church. Some of the other pastors among our churches here in FL have been helping us as all. What a joy to not be independent and on our own at a time like this!”
So a few men who have little total interaction with MLC have more credibility and insight into this “serious” situation than the hundreds of people at MLC who interact daily with MN, who know his character, and could daily speak into his life.
So did I miss it? “On our own and independent” means hundreds of members with insight and experience whereas “helping care” can only come from those outside the church.
If it were my glass of Kool-aid, I’d send it back!
Flotsam and Jetsam
June 15th, 2010 at 10:32 am
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you covered every point more than well!
One Foot, I had two thoughts when I was reading your post.
You said, “I have experienced significant pain and what would probably be classified as “abuse” by those of you who regularly post here.”
Wow, that was so painful to read. I kept going back to it to read it over and over again. You are so loved by God and to think that many of us here made you feel that way is awful. I don’t know if I have ever addressed you directly but I am guessing that some of my more snarky posts to SGM in general may have caused pain to you. At least, I know that during my 15 years there, it may have hurt me to read. I never meant to cause you pain. I know this isn’t much of an apology and in part that’s because, well, it’s not much of an apology because I don’t know if I was responsible for your pain. But I would like to invite you to tell me anything that I said either directly to you or on the fuge or survivors that caused you pain. I can’t promise I’ll regret the sentiment of everything (just because I don’t know what it is) but if it did cause you pain, I am sure I will regret the words I chose. Again, please feel free to contact me if need be.
If nothing else your words will give me some pause when I am writing and make me wonder if there is anyone reading (beside the leadership) that could be caused significant pain by what I am saying. Thank you for sharing it. I’m guessing it may not have been easy to say/type. Though, I don’t mean to say that I won’t be snarky or stupid or rage again. I will. I know my nature all too well. I only have no desire to harm the flock. The leadership on the other hand, if it necessary (the wounds of a friend are faithful) I am fully comfortable (or almost fully) with being snarky to, or stupid to or rage against, if only it will one day lead them to see and repent. If the bleating cries of a sheep are not loud enough for a shepherd to hear, there are times when he pays heed to the zings of an arrow. Anyway, I’m glad you shared, though it was hard to hear. Thank you.
The other thought that your post prompted was actually a question. You had written:
Previously I made a statement on another thread, and I would like to reiterate the idea here. JN is an adult and worked two jobs and as a young adult, spent little time at home…probably similar to every other young adult in our church. The time he spent under his father’s guidance at this point in his life, was very, very limited. It is not reasonable to conclude that MN is somehow responsible for the immoral choices made by his adult son. On the other hand, JJ was directly accountable to DJ and the other pastors during the time of his unfaithful behavior. He was under the authority and oversight of this team of leaders and spent most of his daylight hours in meetings with them, serving with them, etc. It would seem obvious that DJ was far more accountable for the careless and sinful actions of one of his Pastors-In-Training and should have been called to account and faced discipline for allowing this pattern of sin to go undetected for years under his oversight.
This may seem like a fool’s question but when I was reading this I was wondering the shortest sentence I think I’ve ever written here. Why? That’s all. Why? Any chance you have any thoughts? I totally get it if you feel uncomfortable answering. It just goes through my head and seems to be the most rational thing in it. (That’s not necessarily saying much.) Simply, why?
“We do ask that you abstain for sharing this information in electronic forums such as Facebook, Twitter, and blogs because our purpose in sharing it with you is redemptive, not just informational. The Scripture gives us clear direction in Galatians 6:1 – “Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
I guess nothing redemptive could ever come from Facebook, Twitter, and blogs (oh my).
Once again, I am amazed at how scripture is copied and pasted into one bullet point, and one bullet point only in all of this dramatic dialogue when one simple phrase would do the trick: “beware the blogs.”
An illustration of one cleaning up their own back yard before they tell their neighbor to do so springs to mind (a direct parellel to trees and splinters in folks’ eyes), but I won’t be so ungentle and tactless as to bring that up now and embarass anyone…no, I truly need to control myself.
Let me make an observation: I’ve seen many here air public prayers and simple warm wishes for the couple, only to get blasted (or worse, half-hearted drive by rebukes) for airing dirty laundry/gossip/slander/meanness/ungentleness…I really, really don’t get it. Is one only allowed well-wishes/prayers for the kids without talking about the blatant hypocrisy of leadership in how it plays hopscotch with de-giftings pro-giftings?
The vibe I get from critics of this blog and its commenters is that it can only be one or the other, and the latter Bereans and Test-all-things-ers will get relegated to that purgatory of gossipers & slanderers & generic meanies, regardless.
There needs to be room big enough (because it is big enough in God’s grace) for commenters here to express minor and major concerns (and everything in between) regarding SGM while praying for those in SGM…and I don’t mean in condescending ways (“it’s so awful they’re blind, Lord…maybe they’ll grow up to be like me someday…”). Many times folks here have expressed genuine, heartfelt prayers for SGM saints individually and corporately, and those prayers get met with a spirit of spaghetti-western style “spayre mee yer prayerz, outlaw,” style of us-and-them that’s despicable at best and hypocritical at worst.
Motives are not 100% pure 100% of the time, but remember those who are praying for you, SGM, before you scorch them.
–pk
OneFoot,
Your post at 10:26 above brings such a clear synopsis, particularly your 3rd paragraph and: “It would seem obvious that DJ was more accountable for the careless and sinful actions of one of his Pastor-in-training and should have been called to account and faced discipline for allowing this pattern to go on undetected for years under his oversight.”
—-Instead,CJM, DH, DJ, and BP decide the spotlight of ‘discipline’ and judgement should focus elsewhere—-manipulating the congregants — deflecting from the REAL “Serious issues”—–There could not be a more poignant picture of unjust weights and balances.
Flotsam and Jetsam said, ‘You are responsible for guarding your life and doctrine closely!” This seems to be said with great enthusiasm (which as you can probably tell, I can relate to all feelings enthusiastic- except for enthusiasm for baseball- that is just beyond me).
But I couldn’t help but be struck by a thought. Now, this is not to disagree with the above statement at all. It is important to be Bereans. (Hands down, no one will EVER get an argument from me on this one. At all.)
But I can’t help but think that what I really want to be passionate about is loving Him and loving my neighbor as myself. I only say this (and this is not directed at you, Flotsam but your words merely triggered these thoughts), as much as it is important to watch our doctrine, after all we’ve each suffered in SGM, let’s make sure that we don’t lose sight of loving Him and loving others. I’ve seen SGM create unhealthy imbalances because they were reacting to something in the church as a whole or to our culture in America. Creating a way to look at things as a reaction to anything is unhealthy and unbalanced, even though the very thing they are preaching is a good thing.
I guess all this is to say that the above statement reminds me that I never want to lose my love for Him and fellow man in my pursuit of doctrine or what I may, on any given day, deem to be truth.
Stunned
I think that the council…er…counsel given to the two young people and to the church was not godly council…er…counsel. Jesus would have said, “Your sin is forgiven. Go and sin no more.” Life goes on. Love is stronger. True repentance was evident. Where is the celebration? Oh my, how did it all get to be this way???
Did DJ’s son ever get such public treatment? Did DJ ever get “disciplined”? This is so confusing…has anyone ever attempted an explanation for the double standard? This whole story has turned me off my birdseed…anyone have some Pepto?
P.S. I pray that the wedding is a true celebration, not one of shame but one of grace. Marriage is hard enough without beginning on a foundation of guilt. Their sins are forgiven. Let them rejoice! “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Canary,
DJ’s son was dealt with publicly, but at family meetings, not on Sunday morning with guests and kids.
DJ got a public pat on the back from CJ two weeks later, and was eventually promoted from Florida apostle to SE US apostle.
I am appalled.
I don’t even know what else to say……..except how in the world can those folks continue to sit in that church?
F & J-
THAT was awesome!
Dear Stunned – Please allow me to clarify what I meant to say! I do not feel that I suffered “abuse” by those of you who regularly post here…what I meant to say is that I have experienced pastoral abuse – in the sense of the word which Jim intends! When you have been with a church for so many years, and your life has not been characterized by the typical Christian family experience – if there is such a thing – you are particularly vulnerable or “ripe” for this type of abuse. I can’t be too specific without exposing my identity, which I don’t feel safe in doing, but I can relate to many of the situations which so many “refugees” have experienced.
I hope this clears up the confusion. Thank you for your graciousness and sensitivity to what you thought I said.
With regard to your fool’s question, now I need clarification. What question which I inferred are you referring to specifically and to what would you like the answer, “Why?”
Jim, DJ’s son was dealt with in a family meeting at first, but later on, after a recurrence of the behavior, the issue was brought up again in a Sunday morning meeting after the children had been excused for Sunday School. However, there were some middle school age children there, and some parents were upset that they had to hear that then.
MN did get up this past Sunday to say that he was doing well throughout this situation and experiencing the grace of God. Grace does ooze through this man — to be able to keep his head up in this situation if amazing. For MLC’s sake, I hope he gets “restored” quickly.
The reason why this spectacle happened is found in chapter 11 of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson and Van Vonderen. In the hierarchy of this cult there are most likely some leaders carrying a weight of sexual sin. And to maintain a false image of superior purity, a scapegoat comes in handy. To keep the spotlight off yourself, focus the news elsewhere and pretend you would never dare touch the unclean. The man behind the curtain doesn’t want everyone to really see what is going on. Image is everything.
Knowing SGM’s gossipy nature, many people were undoubtedly aware of the young adult’s sins already. So damage control was in order.
The suction power of cults is readily seen in this pastor’s actions. He willingly placed his son on the altar of public humiliation, not for God, but to stay in the good graces of CJ and cohorts. This is man-pleasing at its worst and it shows gross ignorance of Biblical text.
I hate to say this, but the pressure placed on members of SGM is so great that I would not be surprised if some opt for abortions when they fall into sin. This is heinous in so many ways.
RT said, “This does bring about a very important thing: the obssessive need that SGM adults have to stay involved in their adult children’s lives. Yet they ABSOLUTELY do not accept their own parents’ involvement in their lives.”
That is an important statement. Could you please clarify it for me, RT? Are you saying that SGM (non-family) church members tend to be busybodies in the lives of young adults in the church? And are you saying that the young adults generally do not accept their own parents’ involvement in their lives?
Flotsam and Jetsam issued a brilliant warning that bears repeating:
“No one in any church should ever fail to closely examine what is said and taught. You are responsible for guarding your life and doctrine closely! Examine what you allow yourself to swallow. Ask questions. Listen CLOSELY! The way we guard is often directly related to perceived danger. A man who thinks there is no threat will often let his guard down and thusly exposes himself and those around him to great danger. What’s in that Kool-aid that you are about to swallow?”
Your mention of doctrine is important. Pg. 122 of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse states:
“There is a common tendency among those who discover they have been victimized by spiritual abuse to throw the baby out with the bath water. No more Bible, no more God, no more Jesus – it’s all a lie! I understand that reaction and am sympathetic with it. But be careful. What Jesus is saying here means that even a spiritual abuse victim should continue to observe the truth, even as they are throwing out hypocrisy.”
Both truth and love go together in the New Covenant. You can’t have one without the other. Christ said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” John 14:15 You won’t be able to outside of His righteous covering, but your heart will desire to obey and please the Lord. Not man, but the Lord. Love and truth go together.
J & J’s observations with Matthew 18 as related to the way this was handled is right on.
One Foot, I am both relieved and yet still sad (but for different reasons). I am glad to know that coming to this site has not caused you the kind of pain I had thought it had. It was really bad to think of so many well meaning people here causing so much hurt. So I am relieved to know that this site has not caused you pain or to feel abused. Yet, I am so sorry to know you are experiencing that at your church. I was in an SGM church for 15 years. Funnily (if this kind of thing can be funny) it coincided with my very, very unhealthy marriage. I know how horrible it is to feel like everything around you is off and feeling like you’re the only one who seems to think there’s something wrong. It can be maddening. I wish that weren’t your experience, too.
As far as the “Why” question goes, I can’t help but simply wonder why one person stepped down while the other remained. It’s not an angry “why” or a sarcastic “why” or anything like that. I just kept hearing something like an innocent child’s voice in my head asking simply, “Why?” I don’t know if anyone will answer that question. But maybe if they did, it could bring some healing, or answer some of the confusion, or bring clarity to the situation. Just, why?
Off My Rocker,
I’m so glad you guys have someone in your midst who oozes grace. I hope it covers you and you experience God’s love and care and tenderness in a whole new way. He loves us so.
Stunned said, “I know how horrible it is to feel like everything around you is off and feeling like you’re the only one who seems to think there’s something wrong. It can be maddening.”
Dysfunctional groups/families are very good at causing victims to feel like what they are seeing is not really there. It’s crazymaking.
As far as figuring out why they made an issue with one pastor and not another, all I can do is share from my own experience elsewhere. A pastor who is good buddy with a higher up is not held to the same standard because he is closer by friendship, association or some other factor. If that pastor is held to account, then he’s too close by association to the top dog and it can reflect poorly on the top dog. A pastor farther down the food chain of hierarchy is perfect for the job of scapegoating.
As for hurt feelings, I don’t have any, but I’ll just say it would be neat if those here who are ex-SGMers would more warmly welcome others who may be here for different reasons (like just knowing people in SGM they’re concerned about). I ask a lot of questions that sometimes go unanswered and I do feel like an outsider on the main board, even though I went through similar experiences in a different cult-like group. It’s not that anyone is mean-spirited at all; I just feel my questions are largely ignored and by no one person in particular. I’m speaking of the main board here, not Canary’s forum. She is a true kindred spirit! Jim’s doing great work and is busy, so I’m not referring to you either. No one in particular, it’s just frustration because I need answers.
It’s amazing how similar the experiences are for people who have suffered in different cultic groups. So many of the techniques used by those spiritually abusing others are the same.
Patricia, I sometimes feel that my posts are ignored too. I don’t think it’s personal.
RT said, “This does bring about a very important thing: the obssessive need that SGM adults have to stay involved in their adult children’s lives. Yet they ABSOLUTELY do not accept their own parents’ involvement in their lives.”
Then you said, “That is an important statement. Could you please clarify it for me, RT? Are you saying that SGM (non-family) church members tend to be busybodies in the lives of young adults in the church? And are you saying that the young adults generally do not accept their own parents’ involvement in their lives?”
I believe that RT was saying that SGM parents stay very involved in their own adult children’s lives, while rejecting the input/advice of their own parents (unless, of course, those parents are also SGM).
And Stunned, I want you to know I appreciate your spirit as you really encourage people on the board. I have no beef with anyone here. It just feels like most here already know each other and I’m on the outside looking in. And I have questions needing answers, so I can help others. So this is not a criticism of the board or anyone here. I’m just frustrated.
Patricia, I think RT’s statement about not accepting their own parents’ role is saying that the parents try to control their own adult children, but these PARENTS won’t accept input from their own parents. In other words, they might be cut off from the previous generation that is not in the group, but trying to enforce the group standards and values on the next generation. So the group is the ultimate value and becomes the surrogate family, not the relationships within the biological family. This would be a typical cult tactic. I don’t see this in SGM. For the most part, the adult people I know at MLC have good, healthy and honoring relationships with their own parents.
Also, as a followup to a previous comment, I believe that DJ’s son has made a full restoration to his church and his family despite some bumps along the way. I think he’s doing his best to rebuild his life with integrity, and I wish him the best. The same for MN’s son. My prayers and kind thoughts are with both.
I’m sorry Patricia and Acme are feeling unheard.
I really like both of you and feel as though both of you have much to offer the board with respect to your perspective. Some people <cough>me<cough> are just outrageous and get a lot of laughs which reinforces the naughty behavior.
At least I listen to my mom and don’t micromanage and sin-sniff my kids.
Off My Rocker said, “I think RT’s statement about not accepting their own parents’ role is saying that the parents try to control their own adult children, but these PARENTS won’t accept input from their own parents. In other words, they might be cut off from the previous generation that is not in the group, but trying to enforce the group standards and values on the next generation. So the group is the ultimate value and becomes the surrogate family, not the relationships within the biological family. This would be a typical cult tactic. I don’t see this in SGM. For the most part, the adult people I know at MLC have good, healthy and honoring relationships with their own parents.”
Oh, I definitely saw this in my old SGM church. The church absolutely was the surrogate family (not at all relationships (as far as who you listened to, who you believed, who you went to for wisdom, counsel, etc) with biological family unless the biological family was within SGM) and the pastors’ absolutely took on the role of surrogate parents. It was their wisdom, their correction, their counsel, etc. which by far superseded any wisdom, correction, counsel, etc. from the previous generation!! The group absolutely was the ultimate value and you are definitely right that this is a typical cult tactic! There were very few of the previous generation in the congregation and they were not looked upon with any respect because of their age, experience and wisdom. Nope, in fact, they were almost cast aside. Glad that you did not experience this in your SGM church.
BTW: I am appalled at this announcement at ML concerning the young adults. How is it possible that after all this time I can still be shocked and dismayed at the behavior of SGM leadership? I do not know. To make this announcement to the church is outlandish behavior and not biblical in any sense of the WORD! Do they not take the Word of God seriously? Have they not studied Matt. 18? This is another example of the facade surrounding SGM- talk the talk but no walk the walk!
Off My Rocker on June 15th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
said “MN did get up this past Sunday to say that he was doing well throughout this situation and experiencing the grace of God. Grace does ooze through this man — to be able to keep his head up in this situation if amazing. For MLC’s sake, I hope he gets “restored” quickly.”
OFF MY ROCKER must not know how this game is played. Mike N. will be out the door within a year. “Degifted” is what it will be called. Metro’s trusting sheep will gather around their two remaining shepherds while Mike N’s head (instead of wool) is cut off. This is all part of SGM’s “restoration process”. Ask any EX SGM pastor who has been down this road.
To those who hold up Matt 18:15-17 as the literal standard for church discipline —- Would you not also apply with the same conviction and vigor Matt 18:7-9.
How about Matt 18:12-14? Where are the shepherds leaving the flock to seek out those who have strayed? Are they not part of the body of Christ? From my experience (and it is only one man’s experience) the pastors who do go after those who have strayed is to ‘minister’ to them church discipline (Matt 18) not love, understanding, care, forgiving and restoring. ( which is really the point of Matt 18)
There are countless people who have left SGM hurt, wounded, devasted and destroyed. Why are not the pastors not leaving their gift at the altar to seek them out for forgiveness? Why is it that when those who are hurt try and reconcile with their pastors they are beat up even more and made to feel more sinful and more wrong with their input. Are they not the body of Christ?
Stunned: No one is ignoring you but you are greatly appreciated. Sometimes the other parts of life happen and catching up is not always easy. But don’t stop asking
Reason why people leave churches: 2.7 million people leave the church in America because of HURT, WOUNDS, DISILLUSIONMENT AND NEGLECT. Where is the love??
More to come. . .
Irv, right on!!!!! Looking forward to the “more to come”….. thing
Patricia and acme,
I’m the worst blog host on the planet. I don’t welcome guests, and don’t acknowledge most regular commenters. Every so often, a comment says exactly what I’m trying to say, and I’ll make a big deal out of it.
I’m very sorry-I’m really not cut out for this gig.
What Jim, you don’t sit there 24/7 waiting for someone to write something? You actually have a job and life outside of all of this insanity? If you want to keep your sanity, I would advise only checking on this once a week. It is like reading a very sad “Never Ending Story”.
The story’s plot is the same, the characters and cities just seem to change.
For such a time as this, Jim, for such a time as this . . .
There are lots of folks talking — sometimes something I say resonates with someone else, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s fine.
Thanks, DB!
I don’t understand SGM. Why, oh why is this public humiliation necessary? Why must MN be subjected to not only being publicly humiliated himself, but watching as his child is humiliated and saddled up with the suffocating guilt of potentially ruining his father’s career.
I pray for this dear couple, that they would embrace humility, which is precious to God and draws His presence, but reject oppressive humiliation and shame. Like others here and probably many at MLC as well, I pray the sweet blessing of the Lord on their marriage and new life together, and that the Redemption of the Lord will be the mark of their family.
On another topic, I think everyone here feels unheard from time to time. For me, sometimes the comments come so fast that it is hard to respond to them all. Patricia, I know that you and I did not have the best exchange when you first arrived. I’m sorry for any impatience I communicated to you. Sometimes I don’t live up to my own name! Give us some time and hopefully we (I) can answer your questions more gracefully.
By the way, Jim, did you get my email last week?
I have wanted to speak to the MN issue from a personal standpoint but just haven’t had the time to formulate my thoughts. Even after some of you read this you might say I still haven’t formulated my thoughts but here goes —-
How does SGM make their leaders so pliable and conformable? When the scales began to fall from my eyes I was appalled with myself that I had allowed my life to be so taken over that I had become what I despised. Jesus could not be contained by governments, the darkness or religion. He could not be controlled by men. He spoke without reserve and with great authority. He did what He saw His Father doing.]
After I finally took the exit from PDI/SGM, I spent quite a bit of time thinking how leaders and men with strength and b___s (sorry ladies) turned into what we had become. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, the A-team skillfully manipulated us into what a Godly or humble or righteous response was to God and His authority (which was really the A-team)
I remember BP in the Philly church. When they sat him down (de-gifted), they (CJ and Larry) when on and on about his (BP’s) humility and favor with God as they were destroying him. BP on the other hand fell right into the role of exhibiting the great humility they were describing agreeing with them, so thankful for their love, care, grace toward him, etc. etc. (but in the spirit you knew something wasn’t right)
From that point on BP became one of the poster children on true humility, faith and obedience. How this worked out in our lives is that if you received any correction regardless whether it was founded or not we knew how we were supposed to respond if we were humble before God. No one wanted to be displeasing to the Lord and somehow shifted that from God to the A-Team(which was our issues not theirs) If men responded any differently you were considered proud, arrogant, independent etc. Rather sick when I look back and even sicker when I think I see the same thing today.
What was really sick was how we so much wanted the affirmation of the A-team (they were like the hand of God) so if we took their abuse with their humility we were praised (and honored). I think you get the point. I could give you pages of examples of how we learned to take correction and how we learned to become compliable.
I have mentioned in other posts that Spiritual Authority by Watchman Nee was mandatory reading (my take). Nee basically said the degree in which you submit and obey your spiritual authority was the same degree in which you were submitted and in obeyance to God’s authority.
Where I am going with this is this!! I don’t know MN at all. Wouldn’t know him if he came to my door. But I have great compassion for him as he truly is one of the humble ones. However, I also believe that MN felt his response to those in authority was the correct one (the one expected and praised) and he will carry out the company policy even to his own destruction (because he is humble). He is probably the one I would follow out of the whole bunch.
I would also say (maybe wrong) that deep down he knows this is wrong. Unfortunately any of those thoughts he will consider them as sin (pride, etc. etc.) and he will convince himself that he is doing is what is required before God. Because he is a humble man, people (most) will believe what he tells them of how wonderful everything is, how great the men are caring for him, etc. etc (barf).
I so hurt for this man and would love to be able to put my arms around him to let him know that God is in no way displeased with him or his family. He is a giant of the faith (in my humble opinion) and I would encourage him to release his faith to see from His Father’s perspective. I would then encourage him to be really honest with God, himself, his family and then be honest with the church.
Had someone encouraged me to do this – my life and my family’s life would have been very different. One of my greatest regrets is that I lied to God and to my church in deference and submission to those over me. I will never do that again and will do my best to help others to follow suit.
Thanks for letting me vent a bit!!!
Not being one of the best writers on here i will try and make my point as best that i know how. So much has been said that i was almost feeling like there wasn’t much more that could be. Until i re read the post up above last night.
(Remember, discipline is redemptive – it is “proof” of our sonship. M will be relieved of his pastoral duties for a season for the purpose of seeking the Lord, spending time with his family and the study of
Scripture – particularly as it pertains to this situation.)
I would like to get into this a bitt if you all don’t mind. Discipline is redemptive, Words mean things to most of us and these words stick out to me more then anything in this post. I cant disagree with the statement above but as to say disciple from the Lord is redemptive not discipline from a man that thinks he stands in for Christ. It is a pastors job in my view to bring insight and the Lord brings the correction not the other way around. Secondly and you all can correct me if im wrong in this but, It sounds to me that they where saying if he doesnt respond correctly to there corrections that his sonship was in question. Sonship meaning Salvation now that may piss you off but thats how i would have taken it if i where him.
Patricia and Gracie,
You both have something in common. If you wish to exhange email addresses, I am at your service. Just send the request to aftersgm@gmail.com. Patricia, I believe Gracie can answer many of your questions. Gracie, I’m not putting you on the spot (well, sort of) but I think you will understand where Patricia is coming from if she shares her situation with you. Not all of it can be shared in a public way. If you’re interested…
Patricia, if I can help gather anymore info for you, let me know. I understand how important it is for you to be armed with the facts. I have a few sources…but I’m very good at keeping my beak shut when needed! I’ll keep all confidences.. well..confidential.
Patricia–what I mean is that the vast majority of SGM parents that I know are overly consumed with their children’s lives after 15, 16, 17, 18 and beyond. Most still expect their daughters (and some sons) to live at home in their twenties or until they are married. They dictate their colleges, careers, car purchases, activities. They force them to go to church. They expect to be consulted daily. They ESPECIALLY expect to be involved in the courtship and marriage decisions of their children, and to be expect to be consulted regarding the parenting of their grandchildren.
I am almost fifty, and I am talking about my SGM friends who are my age–the founding generation of SGM.
Yet when they speak about their own parents, they completely reject the notion that that older generation should be involved in the least little bit in their own lives, the lives of their grandchildren or in parenting or decision making. In fact, they usually reject advice or involvement from their own parents. If their parents are non-SGM, it is even worse, in fact they often shun their own parents and their parents’ advice.
This hyper-paternalism, therefore, is rooted in my generation, as if it is a brand new concept that originated with us.
So we are free from our parents’ meddling, yet our children are afflicted by ours.
Patricia, I’m really sorry you’ve experienced this. I know that I often haven’t answered many questions on here because I don’t know the answer well enough. (Imagine me not speaking just because I dont’ know the answer! When did that start?) I just want you to know that I don’t entirely think you’re imaging things, either. I’ve noticed that many of your posts have gone unanswered. I wonder if it is the same thing- that people just don’t know the right answer. (Does this mean you could possibly be a lot smarter than the rest of us? Just don’t know.) But if you don’t mind somewhat inaccurate answers, I’ll try to answer and just let you know that I don’t know.
Stunned
DB said that she is outrageous and says bad things. I agree. Can we blame this all on her?
I luuuvvvv DB”s posts!!!!! My daughter and I look forward to them!
Patricia–I am a run-by: sometimes here several times a day, then away for days. I’m sorry if I was one who made you feel unheard. I’m so glad you’re here!
What is your involvement with SGM? This is a great place to know people on both sides of the SGM debate.
Jim, you are the best moderator I’ve ever seen.
You’re a guy. It’s not in your nature to pour tea and bake cookies for everyone that shows up. You have a higher call: reconciliation within the body, and making sure we keep our motives pure (ugh) and our tongues controlled.
I am quite in awe of your temperance and commitment.
Stunned, none of the rest of us is the least bit outrageous.
It must be her fault.
Irv said, “To those who hold up Matt 18:15-17 as the literal standard for church discipline —- Would you not also apply with the same conviction and vigor Matt 18:7-9. ”
I looked it up and…. heeeeee. How many times have we heard SGM pastors talk about avoiding going into the mall near a Victoria’s Secret so as not to sin. I suppose if we’re talking about keeping all of Matt. 18 then a few of the apostles would walk around with their eyes gouged out.
PS, Irv, I think you meant to address Patricia and not me above. I call my kids by the wrong name, too. For I time I even got their names mixed up with the dog’s name.
Irv also said, “There are countless people who have left SGM hurt, wounded, devasted and destroyed. Why are not the pastors not leaving their gift at the altar to seek them out for forgiveness?”
You know how I’ll know that SGM has changed (and I’m praying they will)? They will repent unto the least of these. When each and every one of those that have been cast out/dismembered/beheaded/etc have been sought out for reconciliation, then I’ll take their change or repentance seriously. Til then, they can’t possibly expect anyone to believe they are all that genuine. (Sorry, Jim. I’m not trying to cause trouble between you and those who you say are trying to change or bring repentance, I’ll just trust them once they have obeyed the word of God and sought out all they know who have offended/hurt/harmed. I don’t mind being last in line, in fact, that would be fine, as long as they took care of everyone. No one left behind.)
Stunned
RT, there is no higher calling than cookies.
Glad to know we’re in agreement regarding DB. And glad to know you stand beside me in the innocent line.
PS. DB, I know it started out as a joke, but I was just thinking that after what you’ve been through, I want you to know that I DON’T think of you as a trouble maker. At all. It is a delight to read your words. You often bring me a smile and a fresh way to look at things. YOU are a gift. Thank you for sharing your life with us here. Your hubby is one lucky man. And your kids are 5, (6?) lucky kids.
Ditto, DB, you are a wonderful sister and a treasured poster.
Good night, all.
Jim said, “I’m the worst blog host on the planet. I don’t welcome guests, and don’t acknowledge most regular commenters.”
Jim, I didn’t even know blog hosts were supposed to welcome guests or acknowledge regular commenters! (I guess that means I should rush on over to my own blog and change my behavior there.) So no worries on this end.
This thread has really taken off since I was last here! I’ll have to respond tomorrow when I get a good chunk of time because of all the helpful and encouraging comments. For now, I’ll just say that what you’re doing with this board, Jim, helps people heal and connect. I think everyone here appreciates your sacrifice of time, effort and money. I know I’m thankful! Please keep up the good work.
Stunned – you may be correct. I would hate to see anyone be discouraged because they feel that someone doesn’t know they are there. Don’t really know how to solve the problem but I will certainly be aware — but I wasn’t incorrect that you are greatly appreciated!!
I almost lost dinner on the Victoria’s secret comment but unfortunately it is worse than that – which if I remember we had a similar discussion millions of posts ago!! I just had a thought – perhaps SGM should create an SGM monk society for those who can’t walk in the mall, watch commercials during the Super Bowl, go to the beach, live in society, etc.
I bet with Canary, Defended, Defender and others in CO, we could find a mountain top for them to live.
Patricia – Hang in there. There are some amazing people who care on this site. We are glad you are here and your experience and insight are important.
Patricia — thanks for pointing out the info in the “Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” book. I’ve recently been reading that book for the first time — saying an out-loud “wow” every paragraph or so, and I’ve been reading at record speed, I need to go back and re-read to get it all in my brain.
Sometimes the posts here flow so fast and furiously, there’s not much direct response to any particular poster. But every sentence helps fuel the thought processes of whoever comments next. I appreciate every person who takes time to write — every line has helped me in some way.
I’m stilled stunned. I imagine the families involved in having their personal lives suddenly become reality TV fodder are completely blindsided. And I hope that if any one of us is ever in a meeting where such blatant and horrible abuse occurs, we’ll have the presence of mind to stand up and say, “This is wrong. Stop it. In the name of our loving Lord and Savior, stop at once,” and then take our toys (& tithes) and go home. I hope that if anyone in my family (or anyone else I know, for that matter) is ever on the receiving end of such a vendetta, the mamabear in me will protect them with every bit of righteous anger in my body and spirit.
Great day in the morning, whatever happened to the Golden Rule? Oh, yeah, it became “he who owns the gold makes the rules.”
Sometime, somewhere, somebody’s gonna stand up and say, “Get thee behind me, Satan. We’re not taking this anymore.” Rise up, o men of God. Be done with lesser things.
Irv said –I almost lost dinner on the Victoria’s secret comment but unfortunately it is worse than that – which if I remember we had a similar discussion millions of posts ago!! I just had a thought – perhaps SGM should create an SGM monk society for those who can’t walk in the mall, watch commercials during the Super Bowl, go to the beach, live in society, etc.
I’ll never forget sitting in the hallway of a dorm during Celebration, shooting the breeze with the brethren & sistern, when the topic turned to the dreaded modesty checklist. Groan. I kept my mouth shut as to not be reported for heresy — shoot, my shorts had already raised some eyebrows among the capri crowd. And one of the guys put it all in perspective. He just shrugged, and said, “I’m from California,” as if to say “Much ado about nothing.” ’Nuff said.
Won’t it be interesting when sociologist puts out a doctoral dissertation on SGM?
Man oh man oh man. Just when you think that things couldn’t get any worse …
It does get worse. The architects of the messes in SG get paid huge $$ to stand in front of massess of evanjellyfish and blather on. Really. CJ speaks at a JohnnyMac conference later this month. DH keynotes for CCEF. Josh has a gig with Peacemakers.
Mash up the conference websites and you learn that “Joshua serves on the Leadership Team of Sovereign Grace Ministries” and “Dave … is responsible for church care, church planting, and international expansion for Sovereign Grace Ministries”. CJ is, of course, the humblest of the humble, except when it comes to his legendary athleticism.
If we selected medical care the way the church selects its celebrities we would look for doctors who had little or no formal training (and reveled in that!), wrote modestly popular books purchased by immodestly rabid fans, and who killed a fair number of their patients.
I’ve been listening my way through the minor prophets lately. It seems we are living through the paradoxes they wrote about.
Come, Lord Jesus!
Waiting,
Former SG Pastor
I think C.J. should read 2 Corinthians 11:1-16 again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And be afraid!!!!!!!!!!
Catching up on the reading……….(Now subscribing.)
Irv June 15th 8:43PM
Irv – you don’t know Mike at all you say, and yet you hit the ball out of the park.
There are so many couples at Metro that would line up and say that their marriages would have ended had it not been for the compassionate, wise council of this man being judged by Pharisees. Losing Todd was terrible, but he left because he saw this dog and pony show coming to town and did not want to put his family through it. Mike probably didn’t think that Danny would do anything like this to him with all the stuff his son(pastor in training) had pulled under his watch. Talk about tossing rocks while living in a glass house. If I were Danny’s son, I’d be pleading with my Dad to loan Mike some of the compassion dealt to him by CJ, Dave and the rest of the Sanhedrin.
Thanks, everyone, you see, you’re positively reinforcing it again
Irv, based on one of your latest posts, we *must* know one another IRL (and Stunned, too.) because I was *around* when the BP thingamaging happened but I don’t see his situation as everyone else does, no, of course not!
First, look at the *reason* he was degifted (the term chaps my hyde, but I digress.) Leadership wives are sort of like Stepford wives; who can live up to that any more than the lot of us can look like the photoshopped supermodels on magazines and TV. And BP, from that time on *aged* and became but a shadow of who he should have been. If his is the posterboy example of grace under discipline, run! Hide! Cover your pastorly ass! That entire scenario had no positive spin and nothing has changed to this day.
And, Stunned, it is eight (insert the Count’s laughing) 8 children. There were only six when I was dismembered hence the confusion.
If BP is the same BP at MLC, it was Fairfax, not Philly.
Off My Rocker – Yes I knew BP when he was at Fairfax is now at MLC. He had his own issues of ‘in and out’. BP in Philly was the Sr Pastor but ‘demoted’ to administrator but to tell you the truth I don’t know where he is or what he is doing today. It just never made sense to me. I believe that DH took the lead after BP.
DB – I get the Stepford wives thing, thanks for the clarity (a reminder for an old mind). Whatever the situation what impacted most of us is how it all came out at the pastors conference and how he was put on display. I didn’t make it out to the church in Philly very much. I must say I enjoyed DH and his wife’s hospitality and enjoyed a friendship with AR who I think is long gone. Most of my contact was through the pastor’s conferences.
Nauseated – Thanks for the confirmation. I wonder how many MN’s are out there. I know a few myself.
FSGP – Sir Walter Scott -”Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive” — I am sure this is written somewhere in Proverbs
Square Peg – Forgot all about the modesty checks! LOL (to hide the nausea)
Irv, so you knew BP of the Philly situation? (Or rather, I should say, of the wayyyy outside of Philly in the wealthy suburbs so that no one ever had to get their hands dirty with the icky city people situation.) Can I ask, were you in on the stepping down process?
In one of your posts up there you said,:
I remember BP in the Philly church. When they sat him down (de-gifted), they (CJ and Larry) when on and on about his (BP’s) humility and favor with God as they were destroying him. BP on the other hand fell right into the role of exhibiting the great humility they were describing agreeing with them, so thankful for their love, care, grace toward him, etc. etc. (but in the spirit you knew something wasn’t right)
From that point on BP became one of the poster children on true humility, faith and obedience. How this worked out in our lives is that if you received any correction regardless whether it was founded or not we knew how we were supposed to respond if we were humble before God. No one wanted to be displeasing to the Lord and somehow shifted that from God to the A-Team(which was our issues not theirs) If men responded any differently you were considered proud, arrogant, independent etc. Rather sick when I look back and even sicker when I think I see the same thing today.
What was really sick was how we so much wanted the affirmation of the A-team (they were like the hand of God) so if we took their abuse with their humility we were praised (and honored). I think you get the point. I could give you pages of examples of how we learned to take correction and how we learned to become compliable.
It’s interesting that you said, “BP on the other hand fell right into the role of exhibiting the great humility they were describing agreeing with them, so thankful for their love, care, grace toward him, etc. etc. (but in the spirit you knew something wasn’t right)“. Role of exhibiting is so different from actually being. It was this lovely brother who gave my family and myself the ”invite” to “find another church”. (Yep, his/their words.)
My ex hubby (hubby at the time) had written to him out of concern for a few things going on in the church. Situations where we were seeing real people getting hurt and harmed. It may not have been the most eloquent letter, but it was respectful, and now, for the first time I have ever thought about it, it was the most loving thing I had ever seen my ex do in way of sticking up for or speaking for those who were hurting. We, for some strange reason, had always believed their, “come talk to us, we’re open for correction.” (Silly us took them on their word. What-what?!)
From what I can recall we had 7 concerns – 1) creepy man who ended up being a convicted child molester in CHARGE of children’s ministry 2) one couple having been forced to step down as homegroup leaders when their- I think- adult son had done something stupid 3) the cruel treatment of the most loving pastor Cov Fel had had up to that point (not saying a lot though as this was the same guy who gave DB’s marriage a few years before it failed- happy few decades of marriage DB!)- being forced out and having to lie about the reasons to the church, to himself and to his family- not having administrative gifts enough when really his son had-gasp- sinned-basically the kid was a bit of a jerk in my opinion but I find the best way to treat jerks is with a boatload of love and a bit of a backhand if necessary- not eject their fathers from ministry when their fathers are the ONLY ones on staff with anything approaching a pastor’s heart 4) to 7) more of the same stupid legalism and shoddy treatment of people. Gee, we thought after all their claims of humility that they would be happy to have someone come and love them enough to speak with them about this.
By the end of our horrific 2 hour meeting with me sitting between two huge a*%&%&% (I had never used that word in my life before that meeting occured- and no, I didn’t use it in the meeting, just in my head as I walked out) but after sitting between two &^*^ (BP and my ex) where I let the two of them do most of the talking (I mean a LOT of it), I finally tried to speak. BP’s response? He cut me off when I hadn’t even yet uttered one whole sentence. Just a few words. His statement? Your husband has spoken for the two of you! Wow, I had never known I was chattle up until that moment. Didn’t know I was merely hubby’s property. Almost everythign I had ever heard BP preach seemed to go out the window in those two hours- humility, love, grace, openness, how to handle people coming to you…
Before that point I had known BP for 15 years- since I was 19- when the church was still tiny and new. Our children had played together. I had driven his son to countless church meetings. I had volunteered in the church office for years, working beside him and the others. Yet now, I was not allowed to SPEAK to him because my husband already had?
Then he did the most bizaar thing I’ve ever seen him do. As the realization that I had no right to even use my own voice, that I was nothing but chattle to this man I had considered a big brother (I think he baptized me, too- been in my home, etc.), as this realization and utter disrespect hit me (I actually used to be a very gentle, self controlled woman, ask DB), this wail rose up from the deepest part of me. It was a ball, an explosion of pain and sadness, like a fireball forming in a house fire. It rose from the pit of my being until it hit my throat. My mouth opened and sobs came out of me. Loud, wailing sobs. Grief. My body wracked and overcome with sadness, shoulders heaving. I clapped my hands over my mouth and tried to push them back down. Though my mouth was now closed, my throat wasn’t. High pitched wailing cries came up past my vocal cords and though I kept my hands over my mouth, the sounds came out, rolling over and over again. I couldn’t stop them as this horrible grief, as this horrible disrespect washed over me.
I had to remove my hands to gasp for breath and the sounds and wails, still coming left his office and moved out into the outer offices.
And Bill’s pastorly response? It was to conclude the meeting in prayer. As my wails were rolling out of me, as my shoulders were heaving and as torrents of tears rolled down my face, Bill bowed his head and in a detatched, sing-songy, religous way, he began to pray outloud, thanking God for the meeting, etc. This went on for a few minutes. All the while, me wailing, all the while, him praying.
I was stunned.
Did he think he would shame me into becoming silent? (After all, I would never intentioinally interupt a man praying.) Did he think he would manipulate me into stopping? Oh, if only I could! If only I could have stopped. If only the cries were merely from my own body and not a seemingly horrible cry from God’s Holy Spirit. If only the shock and grief could have been put down by a cold man doing his best pastor’s version of a prayer.
But it continued, the wailing continued as I’d alternate between gasping for air and covering my mouth, trying so hard, trying so fruitlessly to reconcile what was happening in front of me. I don’t think my hubby knew what to do either. I think he was dumbfounded.
Then Bill finished his prayer, smiled serenely (it was frightening) and looked at me. My eyes were wild with confusion. His body language, words, tone of voice, all of it indicated that he was in a separate room, a separate universe than I was in. He was not in the room of a woman crying uncontrollably. He was in a meadow with bees and butterflies buzzing around his head. His heart was as cold as one could get and as removed as one could be from the grief of another person sitting just feet away.
He spoke, calmly and with a smile (chilling to me to this day), as if nothing odd or unusual was happening in his office and said, still with that smile, that since we had known each other for so long, it was OK if I wanted to say something. Now I was even more stunned and confused. Yet clarity was also on my side. Confused because I couldn’t reconcile who he had always claimed to be (but not what I had seen yet I believed his words over his always cold behavior- doh) with what I was seeing before my eyes. Yet it was clear. He had no more interest in what I had to say at that moment than he had before when he effectively told me to shut up. (I swear I hadn’t said more than 3 or 4 words when he told me that.) But he wanted me quiet. NOW. So if he offered me a chance to speak, my cries would stop. Right?
Wrong. The ugliness of what I was seeing right before me, the deception, etc was far greater than what any sane person should handle. (Frankly, sometimes I don’t have a lot of respect for people who go along with insanity. I think most people care more about how they’re being perceived more than they do about truth and God and love. Wrong is wrong. If a 5 year old can figure out something ain’t right then shame..eerrrr… God’s great grace I mean, on the adults who act like it’s all cool.)
In spite of that I searched for the words I was going to say to him only minutes before. But they were gone. The insanity in the office (his office, his insanity) had engulfed me and pushed out my previous thoughts. I think all I could do for a moment or two was to stare at him.
Then it was time to leave.
Four days later we receieved a letter inviting us to go find another church. (Unless of course we wanted to work on reconciling with the pastors. When had we “broken up”? What had we done. There had NEVER been one charge of sin brought against us. What was happening?!??!?!)
No other pastor’s had contacted us to find out what the heck happened. No one asked about the cries heard round the office. No one spoke to us about the letter they knew we were about to receive, though they all saw me at a wedding hours before I got home and found the letter they had mailed two days before.
They saw me because I was serving them food as a volunteer at the wedding. I had gone as a guest but was sort of conscripted when there was only one other person in charge of all the food. (Trust me, being in the kitchen AIN’T a gift of mine. I have set two pots on fire in an attempt to boil water. True story. Neither are acts of service natural for me. I’m a mercy. Bring a hurting soul to me and I’m all good, but practical things like food are so outside of my natural bent. But I guess because I didn’t have a p____- well I still dont’ have one-, I was more fit to be in the kitchen carrying heavy things to the pastors and feeding them rather than them or the other men around who were bigger and stronger and could have carried those things more easily.)
So like I said, maybe BP did a good job of exhibiting humility and teachability but he sure did a horrendous job of living it.
Irv, not to be a stickler, but if you were involved or knew much about BP’s intial stepping down back in the late 80′s, I can’t help but wonder if things had been different for us who were under his care had more people stood up to say something is wrong and they ain’t going to take it anymore. Maybe it would have rolled along just like it did. I just wonder, though.
Irv also said, “After I finally took the exit from PDI/SGM, I spent quite a bit of time thinking how leaders and men with strength and b___s (sorry ladies)….” That’s OK, Irv, strong women have ‘em, too. We’d rather not, but some of us have had to grow steel plated ones after what the men in this world have put us through. (Oh my gosh, with a mouth like this how did I ever get a boyfriend?!!! Thank heavens some people find honesty attractive.)
Subscribing…
Irv,
Just read your post on 6/15@8:43pm. Wow! Thankyou for being so real (I’m staying away from the ‘transparent’ word,ugh) in your description of HOW it is that an sgm pastor morphs into a compliant sgm yes-man. For almost 20 years we watched this transpire in several mens lives—and then when “Pastors College” was built and men began returning from there—my husband made the astute observation that the men were returning with “no b___” (as you alluded to in your description–sorry all). — “Something” is taken out of men who go whole-heartedly with sgm leadership—it seems they lose their fire/warrior mentality God created for protection of the family and blazing the trail– it is replaced with submission to sgm leadership. The law entangles and begins to draw out the dunamis power of Holy Spirit and the LIFE of Christ.
Thus, as you pointed out, this would be why a man like MN would submit to what he did . We have witnessed this many times. Our family member in pastoral leadership and his wife were stepfordized along with all the others—I really hope there will be a book about all this someday— the “inside” facts of pastor-molding are horrrrrendous.
One close friend was a beloved pastor. Behind the scenes he had many disagreements with the sr pastor. Finally, it came to a head—explosive argument and asst pastor is basically “fired”. Then comes the church announcement day and asst pastor humbly says how he has been thinking of this for a long time and going out into the working force once again. Church is sad—this is the pastor who has cared for them and has been a true shepherd.
So basically, the church was lied to in regards to the asst pastors decision. Request was made from friend to asst pastor to please tell the people the truth—but he complied to his training and “for the good of the church” (????????????) let them all believe a lie. This is one way the sgm leadership/ateam control and manipulation machine perpetuates.
Just as alarming, is the Brethren would sometimes rather believe what they know isn’t quite right—repeatedly, the sensitivity and warnings of Holy Spirit are ebbed away .
Yep, we arenot fighting ‘flesh and blood’ my friends, but deceptive powers that would keep Gods people entrenched from His abundant Life. We are at war—and so we pray…
Really praying the people at Metro will TAKE COURAGE and rise up and fight aginst the unChristlike actions that are taking place………… Jesus said “IAM the way, the Truth and the Life”——–With sgm there is a CONSTANT BATTLE FOR TRUTH…………
Stunned,
I admire you greatly. The way you described your experience was so detailed. How could any man see a woman sobbing like that and IGNORE it? Jesus would never have done that. Oh, excuse me…he wasn’t a Senior Pastor…
You have my friendship. You have earned my respect. Now you are one of my heroes. That you are still walking in the faith after what you’ve been through is simply a statement of the strength of your allegience to God, and an act of amazing grace in your life. You inspire me.
Stunned - I am sitting here in tears not really knowing what to say. I am so sorry that you experienced such a cold humiliating meeting and then followed up with written exit strategy given to you by such wonderful PDI shepherds. It is gut wrenching! There really isn’t a response needed as your story pretty says it all.
I am very thankful to the Lord for seeing you through it all (and is continuing to do so). You are a testament of His love, grace and mercy. I do wonder what is going on in the minds of those leaders who read stories like yours and others. I would certainly hope and pray they will see without the SGM glasses at some point.
I was not part of the stepping down process. This happened not too long after we had joined PDI. What young and foolish men we were!!! For reasons beyond me, we saw the carnage but somehow bought into the company line and became part of the problem not the solution.
You did trigger something else that was taught and reinforced in us. Larry always said that it was “friends first, leaders second”. I know he meant it I just don’t know if he carried out because of the issues between CJ and him. But when CJ took the helm it was “leaders first and friends second”. He also taught the church cannot be built on sentiment. Sentiment is about emotion and feeling.
It was in the context of ‘if someone has been serving or leading in a particular area and there is one better to do the job then replace them”. He said on more than several occasions that if anyone could do a better job than him, he would gladly step aside and serve the one who replaced him.
You wouldn’t believe (no you might believe it) the statements that were coming from leaders that were going to one another willing to promote others above themselves so they could serve. It was all there in front of us, but we somehow thought it admirable. When I look back it was all so manipulative.
Enough of that!! Thanks again for sharing!!
Waters: Sounds like Mrs Irv and I would get along quite well with you and Mr. Waters. As far as a book, I am afraid not many people would be able to stomach what they would be reading. Appreciate your taking the time to share your observations and confirm that others are seeing.
I know Stunned IRL, I knew how much she poured into that church for years.
It’s one thing to take a dump on DB, I have a big mouth and sometimes overstate the obvious and, consequently, invite people’s wrath.
*Stunned* OTOH is, well, was at the time, a very sweet loving ahem accomodating woman whose heart was to serve the church.
She in no way deserved to take that type of abuse.
These people are all out of control and have been for a very long time.
WHAT THE HECK happened to mourn with those who mourn, weep with those who weep????
Prayer as a manipulative tool-God’s gotta love that…
Dear Stunned- I’m speechless…….I hear your heart and spirit in what you described.
—The wail coming up from your spirit was the cry of Christ in you……..remember Jesus’ words to Saul (Paul) “Saul,Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” —when Saul was arresting and abusing Christians—he was, in Jesus’ words, persecuting Jesus.
The cold robotic response of the pastor is chilling — a picture of how the sgmtransformedpastor automatically responds. And the maligning of women to be silenced, unvalued,and not heard.
How wonderful to hear you going forward in the Lord–knowing His love and care and walking each turn of the path on your journey with Him—and your heart to lean in and hear the hearts of the broken on this site -you know and reflect the Redeemer!
************ much love to you and your family, waters
Irv,
You said: It was in the context of ‘if someone has been serving or leading in a particular area and there is one better to do the job then replace them”. He said on more than several occasions that if anyone could do a better job than him, he would gladly step aside and serve the one who replaced him.
The lack of loyalty amongst these men is appalling. This sounds like corporate behind-the-scenes ladder climbing instead of men called to serve the saints through love. And how would CJ ever know if there was someone better at doing his job than he if he is surrounded by “yes” men? Sounds like the whole lot of them could use a little “sentiment”. Let them study on the shortest verse in the Bible to gain badly needed revelation: “Jesus wept.”
I’m sure Stunned would agree that this verse should be one of the courses offered at the pastor’s college…
P.S. I’m only assuming CJ is surrounded by “yes” men by what I have read here. Perhaps he has men who bravely “speak into his life” and he receives their input so well that they see no other man who is better equipped to lead. However, if this is true, how are pastors like the one who treated Stunned with such callous disregard for her pain EVER allowed to lead a church? Doesn’t the buck stop at the top of management headquarters? Shouldn’t CJ take some responsiblity for this? Oh, the birdseed is flying where I’m at…I might even have to cage up my kitty again. This is a travesty.
Stunned, if it helps, your tears weren’t the only ones ignored by leadership. Oh my gosh, what would they do with someone like a Jeramiah? ”Invite” him through a letter to find another church? Aaaaack! I’ve gotta go kick something…where’s that danged cat?
Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Stunned,
I wept as I read your comment. I continue to faithfully pray for you.
“It’s your church, Metro. What do you want to do with it?” – Danny Jones circa 1993
Wow, how things change! As I continue to hear about the steady exodus from Metro Life Church, I think that nothing else could surprise me, and then I discover I am wrong. Friendships that have laid dormant for a decade have sprung back to life as a wounded, bloodied and abused flock tries to grapple with what they have been through.
I have seen emails – HATE emails sent from MLC members to those that have raised concern or question. I have spoken with former members (some of long standing) venting frustration about a leadership that will not listen. As so many of you on this blog have stated, it is difficult to bring an “observation” and nothing short of heroic to make a criticism. The office door may be open, but the bars of “Have you examined your own sin first…are you proud in bringing this…your bitterness invalidates your observation” still seem to be firmly affixed. And if you succeed in passing that gate, “Well, you know Metro Life Church isn’t for everybody”. You can expect that statement even in spite of long standing commitment to the body at Metro. Is this the church you – those who remain at Metro – want Metro to be?
“It’s your church, Metro. What do you want to do with it?”
Stunned made a brilliant statement – “I can’t help but wonder if things had been different for us who were under his care had more people stood up to say something is wrong and they ain’t going to take it anymore. Maybe it would have rolled along just like it did. I just wonder, though”
It is hard – VERY hard to do this for a lot of reasons. I have walked through it here in Denver, and rate that year and a half as the most miserable I have ever been through. But it shaped me, and I found anew the love, mercy and strength of God. I learned to probe deep, and ask tough questions, and continued asking until I had answers. I left those meetings feeling pretty beat up. In one of those meetings, I was threatened with the SGM weapon of mass destruction – Church Discipline!
At best, Metro Life is now a church divided. Large numbers of families have left, many of which have been there 10 or more years. Has anyone left asked these families why? Or have you just simply relied on leadership to provide the whole story? We believed all we were told in Denver, and then over the years, began to find out the rest of the story.
Waters made a statement – “So basically, the church was lied to in regards to the asst pastors decision. Request was made from friend to asst pastor to please tell the people the truth—but he complied to his training and “for the good of the church”
The word I think describes this best use is inveiglement
1. To entice, lure, or ensnare by flattery or artful talk or inducements.
2. To lure by false representations or other deceit.
It was raised to an art form in the Denver church, and from what I can tell, seems to be at work at Metro as well. Ask! Ask! Ask! You have to ask specific questions to get specific answers. DON’T SETTLE FOR vagaries or artful talk!
Consider the reason for this particular blog – MN being asked to step down. Has anyone asked specifics? Have you asked multiple pastors, including MN?
In my mind, questions like – How long did you know about the events (Months if I understand correctly)? – Do CJ/MN/BP/DJ all agree that MN should step down? – When was this announced to the other involved church? If the event was known about for months, why was it suddenly a matter of urgency? – Did MN know he was going to be told to step down on that Sunday?
If you are attending Metro still, do you know the answers to these questions? If I were still attending, I would want to know. You have my prayers in this difficult season!!!
“It’s your church, Metro. What do you want to do with it?”
There are so many of these same stories–absolute disregard for pain and especially for the pain in women.
Jesus was especially tender, straightforward and inclusive where women were concerned. One of his last thoughts on the cross was of his mother. He elevated the status of women.
But this continual CONTINUAL dismissal and bullying of women in SGM is the very antithesis of His graciousness.
I’ve been bullied like that, too, in an elder session. I didn’t know what hit me. Such a weird experience, to sit there watching men I thought were one thing spouting untruth and accusations. Funny, once my husband involved himself, the tone completely changed. Isn’t that a coincidence? Remarkable.
Playground bullies.
Imagine, men of Refuge, sitting across from a woman wailing in pain. Now imagine not rushing to comfort her. Now, imagine completely ignoring her pain, and “leading” everyone in a closing prayer. You’re messing with the precious bride of Christ, SGM. I’d back away. He is a jealous God.
I’m one of the “frozen chosen” PCA…but am more than willing to start hunting for some demonic root here.
Whenever we observe the absolute antithesis of aspects of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, where does that lead us? “He who is not with me is against me.”
How else to explain the universal fear and distrust of non SGM pastors and church congregations after one escapes SGM clutches? It is truly abnormal. I have a friend who slipped the SGM bonds a year or two ago, and is just now trying to come back to worship with a group of believers. She is fearful and shaky.
You don’t have to be a part of a traditional church situation, of course. But unless there is some real spiritual attack going on, it seems like the decision to not do so should be more easy, more sure. I grieve over my SGM friends who fear other believers, pastors, elders, church congregations. The actions that lead to this fear is a grievous, a GRIEVOUS, abuse of the precious blood-bought children of God.
SGM leaders–repent. Repent. Repent before the flood of restoration comes. I hear the roar now, a cleansing sweeping is rising up. Get on the ark, SGM, don’t be swept away.
Stunned, I am so sorry to hear your story. Those things just don’t go away. This is a poem I wrote a couple of years ago after a rather distressing home group meeting where I spent the entire time in the bathroom bawling my eyes out. (Not anyone else’s fault — someone just said unknowingly something that triggered strong emotions.)
“Do Cry”
by Virginia Knowles
Do cry
There is no shame
When teardrops fall as healing rain
Our Comforter who sees and knows
Collects them all in his bottle.
Do they mingle there with ancient tears of long ago?
Or far-flung ones around the globe?
I do not know, nor do I always know why I cry
Just that there is a deep welling up inside
Or perhaps a thorn prick of conscience
Or an oozing scrape of disappointment
Or a dagger thrust of insult
Or even the gashing grief of death
As blood flows, so do tears
But they are wiped away
By One who also binds up wounds.
Do cry
But not from indulgent self-pity
Or twisting others to comply
Cry to wash the soul
Turn the heart with fresh resolve
A firmness born from tenderness
Cry for justice, mercy
Mourn for suffering that is not your own
To hear the groans and seek to console
With the comfort you yourself have received
There is a blessing in brokenness
Do cry: then go on in love and joy and peace.
~*~*~
Put my tears in your bottle. Are they not in your book? ~ Psalm 56:8
Those who sow in tears shall reap with shouts of joy! ~ Psalm 126:5
Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning. ~ Psalm 30:5
You have turned for me my mourning into dancing. ~ Psalm 30:11
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance. ~ Ecclesiastes. 3:4
Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh. ~ Luke 6:21
She has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. ~ Luke 7:44
Jesus wept. ~ John 11:35
Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. ~ Romans 12:15
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. ~ Revelation 21:1
~*~*~
People, I used to cry on my way to churh nearly every Sunday for over a year.
It wasn’t unusual to cry on the way home as well.
You want to hear lack of grace? I went to church with a two day old baby (yes, *day* old) and they, at the time, had a policy by which ushers closed the doors to the sanctuary and any latecomers had to wait outside for the first worship song to end.
Now, I was on time according to KYW: All News All the Time, but apparently I was late PDI time and was not allowed in. With a two day old baby.
That is one of many reasons I nearly choked on my own phlem when they changed their name to Sovereign Grace.
All the sadness and grieving described on this thread speaks volumes about the spiritual abuse practiced by the SGM hierarchy.
Stunned, I’m with Canary. Your focus on God is an inspiration. This board is filled with testimonies pointing to God’s merciful kindness. We can give God all glory for being with us in our pain, so we could come to a place of understanding His grace. We felt alone, but He was with us still – as evidenced by our being here today.
______ said, “C J, by endorsing and recommending this teaching, is trying to keep Metro members by telling them that Metro is the bride and body of Christ, and that you cannot leave it, nor can you speak against it. If you do, you are speaking against God and leaving the body of Christ.”
That is precisely what the “church” cult I was in did. When I left, I cried out to God to be merciful to me. I felt God understood, but I was not 100% certain, so I asked Him to please not leave me. While trusting no human man, I was put in the position of having to trust God alone – which is right where He wants all of us. The sooner every Christian realizes that, what blessings follow!
Being in a cult is a horrible experience, but the one golden nugget you take from it is that you look to God for your needs. You either do that, or you leave Him. Many in the “church” I once attended abandoned all faith in God. That breaks my heart because it is God’s goodness that brought them out. It is God who longs to be in relationship with each one of us. These cults know nothing at all about God. Even the demons can spout scripture, but their hearts are far from God.
Thanks OMRocker for explaining your thoughts and DB, your words made me smile. Gracie, I did not think twice about that – to this day I don’t know who said what and it really doesn’t matter to me. I could hear the pain people spoke that day. So many people here responded to my most recent post that I can’t thank you all for your kind words without this post being too long, but ((((((((( thank you all! )))))))))) I see your hearts.
Fred, oh wow, what you said rings true. I have sensed this is the case for quite a while now. Thank you for sharing that.
Nauseated astutely said that MN will be “degifted” within a year. I have no clue where this concept of “degifting” came from because it’s not Biblical. How can a mere man remove a gift that God alone gave – without exalting himself to the same status as God?
Irv, you made several great points. I believe the answer is because the focus of cults is to please the human leader, not God. CJ’s sermon The Happiest Place on Earth said it all. Near the end of that sermon he basically announced that when we’re all dead and risen to meet our Lord, we will all gather around our pastor and sing his (the pastor’s) praises in front of Christ. Check the transcript to that sermon and you’ll see it. The focus is always on the higher ups in the church, not on Christ. It is Christ in name only – that’s it.
CJ appeals to mens’ carnal nature by tempting them to exalt themselves by gaining position. The humility talk is just talk created to elevate status. As someone pointed out, this is narcissism at its worst.
And Irv, you’re right that this problem is in many other churches as well, so discernment is important. Kris on Survivors wrote a very good piece on finding another church. I want to encourage everyone here not to give up or be discouraged if you also find problems elsewhere. God’s true church (body of believers) is alive and well. Godly leaders do exist. What we’re seeing today existed in New Testament times and it was prophesied for the future.
II Peter 2, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”
(II Cor. 11:13-15): “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”
(Col. 2:6,7): “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.” But then he follows immediately with this charge: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
All those loved of God have this calling: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God.”
oh Stunned. I’m so so sorry you had to go thru that with BP and your former church. The way you told your experience made me almost see it happening in my mind, like I was there. I left many meetings at my former church in tears of disbelief, wondering WHY God was allowing this to happen and why was my pastor, my former friend acting like this.
“He also taught the church cannot be built on sentiment. Sentiment is about emotion and feeling.”
ooooooookay. so THAT’S where this line about “sentiment” came from when my former pastor said that he couldn’t stand on sentiment with me and my family. (Though he did treat me alot more gentler than he did some others that I have heard about that left the church.) :/
“You want to hear lack of grace? I went to church with a two day old baby (yes, *day* old) and they, at the time, had a policy by which ushers closed the doors to the sanctuary and any latecomers had to wait outside for the first worship song to end.”
Oh DB, that’s awful!! I’m glad our church wasn’t like that, our family .would’ve been waiting outside constantly. :/
STUNNED — you have, once again stunned me — and I am so thankful for your courage. Telling that story took alot more than steel uh, guts.
Oh, the “I’ll be so willing to step aside when someone more gifted comes along” — I remember well when that idea filtered down. It sounded so noble. So high-and-mightily HUMBLE. Yet, can anyone recall a single occurance of that happening at a leadership level? I can’t. But that concept was used often, though, on regular run-of-the-mill members – even when nobody more gifted had come along. Whoever came along was just more well-liked by the Power Pastor. Actually, I remember Power Pastor saying that if someone more gifted came along to take his place, it wouldn’t bother him a bit if he could never preach again.
And here we are, right back at the polity problem again. These guys know that when they do weird stuff, the congregation can’t touch them. The SGM pipeline has their backs. And on the other hand, they don’t dare buck the pipeline, because the congregation can’t protect them, either, and they’re between a rock and a hard place wondering where next month’s mortgage money is gonna come from.
And the sentence that explained there wasn’t time for a family meeting? Does anybody swallow that? Of course there was time! How ’bout “we’re gonna convene an emergency family meeting at 2 PM, adult members only…or how ’bout sending the members a letter informing them of the witch hunt –oops, restoration. )
If these guys had to answer to the congregation through some elders/deacons who had some common sense and solid Bible knowledge — somebody might have said, “Hey, guys — let’s rethink this. Are we really sure we want to hang people out to dry this way and write “formerly soiled” all over their lives? After all, Jesus washed them white as snow — shouldn’t we be protecting and loving our people.? And hey, are YOU willing to let somebody stand up and publicly humiliate your daughter or son in front of total strangers in a way that may haunt them forever and ruin what should be the happiest occasion of their lives?)
I’m not a prophecy mic person — but even I can see some handwriting on the wall. This situation may well have consequences of gigantic proportions.
People like Stunned, Canary, DB, Acme, etc., are no longer silent. And oh, my goodness — to the guys who, “for the good of the church”, said “I’m stepping down from ministry…” when you were actually fired — many who love you knew it all along, but had no voice in the matter.
Today, I ran this situation by a couple of friends who’ve operated at high levels in “real” reformed churches, are well-versed in church problems, and aren’t at all naive about the horrible things that can happen in churches. And you should’ve heard them gasp.
Square Peg, me too.
I’ve run this scenario, minus names and denominational context, past several people.
Gasp, choke, dismay, anger, disbelief.
Not a single one nodded.
Why, SGM lurkers, don’t you stand up and walk out of these meetings? Is there a rush involved in the luridness of the details given?
If you had good solid confessing elders chosen by the congregation, they would handle this privately. And if a church member asked, “so, what was up with so and so,” the answer should be, none of yer bidness, pardner!
I was distracted when writing the last post–it sounds snarky. Please forgive me. I didn’t mean to accuse anyone of enjoying “luridness,” although I’ve met people that do.
I forgot to add the rest–is is fear of peers, fear of leaders. being convinced that the discipline is right, frozen in shock??
Thanks for the do-over.
RT — no snarkiness heard on my end.
Having been in several of those “family meetings”, I imagine that most people sat there, indeed, frozen in shock – then saddened beyond belief. And fear? Heck, yeah. How many shook in fear, with that deer-in-the-headlights look, thinking “Uh, oh — when are they gonna ‘out me’ for (name that sin)?”
Now, I realize that at least one horrible family meeting I attended was about a confessed sin and subsequent church discipline that was really none of the congregation’s business. There were some others that were indeed necessary, and in my view both now and then, handled as well as could be expected.
What a horrid precedent. We know where it started. Where does it stop?
RT:
In regard to June 16th, 2010 at 9:19 pm, you weren’t snarky…in my opinion, you were being generous…and I say that having been in the same grouping of the SGM lurker who suffers with the throngs of those who engage in “sitzkrieg” as in (1) sit and do nothing and (2) wring hands until things get better…maybe.
Stunned:
Your June 16th, 2010 at 10:09 am post…I truly see God’s hand on your life, that episode alone having the potential to wreck one’s faith in God permanently. After I read and contemplated it, I prayed and asked God to remove any strain in me that would ever make me a person who could do those things in the manner your ex and “pastor” did…I use “pastor” loosely as its meaning of “shepherd” simply does not apply to anyone who could do these things. Pastors can screw up and slide pretty far down the pole before they deserve to get their office/title/gift yanked from them, but this story just shorts my brain out in how it unfolded.
First of all, I appreciate you sharing it, because it helps me as a man to try to be a better man (and PD would thank you for that). Second, I can’t imagine what you go through in retelling it. For me, I don’t know if it would get easier over time, short of God’s intervening grace. God bless you, and may He continue to bless you, Stunned.
–pk
Another thought. I think it was Irv, above, who spoke about pastors being taught to receive correction with great humility.
Receiving legitimate correction with a good attitude and humility is an admirable thing, and I do not in any way question the sincerity of anyone who has done that. But I believe another factor influences the reaction of the SGM guys who’ve been charged with indefensible, unmeasureable offenses. They have no practical choice but to eat humble pie. If they receive such correction with anything less than humility and willingness to accept the punishment — oops, discipline — they are immediately out of a job with few prospects anywhere else. And they’ve been trained to think that “anywhere else” is unbiblical, so of course, if they’re called to ministry, it has to be within SGM. And it’s likely that they’re going to be tossed out eventually, but they’ve got to hold on as long as possible.
If they were in a real denomination, armed with degrees from accredited seminaries, they’d have some other options to consider – they could put forth more of their own opinions or arguments, defend themselves, and in the end, agree to disagree with the accusers and walk into a different ministry, a different church, etc. But these guys, for the most part, have no credentials that mean a thing outside SGM. They can’t run over to the closest “reformed” denomination , show their Pastor’s College diploma and get ordained. They’re stuck. They know, more than likely, that they don’t have a snowball’s chance of getting “restored” to ministry in SGM — but it’s their only shot. If they stand up for themselves, and say, for example, “When it comes to parenting, I did the best I could with what I had. Anybody with half a brain knows that there are no pat formulas for manufacturing perfect children. And how do you know it wasn’t your “glue stick” harshness that I followed to the letter that caused my kids to sin?” (They ought to be pretty good at turning tables toward their accusers after all the indoctrination they’ve had in that tactic.)
Their livelihood depends on playing the SGM game. And please do not hear something I did not say. Many pastors could’ve made more money in a secular vocation, but they answered God’s call to ministry. I’m not insinuating that any of these guys entered the pastorate because it pays well. Generally, it doesn’t. But once they’ve spent a good chunk of their lives as an SGM pastor, they don’t have other marketable skills. Some of them don’t have college degrees or any respected work experience. And their families need to eat.
If I had knowledge of a young man who desired to become a pastor in SGM – I’d do everything in my power to encourage him to graduate from college, then get an accredited seminary degree (not from a Catholic institution!) And then, if he still wanted to stick with SGM, what’s another 9 months to get the PC ticket punched –assuming he could be one of the chosen? (Another way that SGM doesn’t fit the “reformed” definition is that most reformed denominations require pastors to be well-educated, meaning college degree plus seminary.)
Another thought just hit, and then I promise I’m going to bed: many guys go back to school after they’ve been called to ministry in adulthood. Some have to start with basic college educations before even enrolling in seminary. But they know that God has called them to the task, and they do it, and do it well. I can think of several guys I’ve known who did this, and if I put my mind to it, there are probably at least a dozen I could name. It wasn’t easy, but they did it. I wonder why some of the SGM apostles (ouch it hurts to use that word) didn’t do something like that? I remember Brent saying at one time that he was the only one of the A-Team with a seminary degree. They’re certainly smart enough to handle the coursework, and the family of churches would certainly give them time to do the work. It’s never too late… and I bet there are scholarships available — oh, wait – didn’t somebody we know just give a bundle to SBTS ? I love it when a plan comes together!
Disclaimer: Don’t like saying A Team either, ’cause I adored Face, Hannibal, and especially the crazy one.
Stunned,
After reading above, (June 16th, 2010 at 10:09 am) I am amazed at some of the similarities between your story and what happened to my wife.
Consider yourself hugged from Defender.
(Square Peg said And hey, are YOU willing to let somebody stand up and publicly humiliate your daughter or son in front of total strangers in a way that may haunt them forever and ruin what should be the happiest occasion of their lives?)
May God have mercy on the parents and the rest of that group of people.
They are warped, warped, warped if they think that is how God would handle the situation.
Their reasoning ability and natural protectiveness for their family has been skewed and distorted.
Thank heavens I came out of their darkness into the LIGHT.
Square Peg– Noticed your A-Team reference. Have you seen the movie??? It was summer, popcorn fun. If you go stay to the very end of the credits you will not be disappointed. “I love it when a plan comes together” Ok, it was off topic just injecting a little levity.
Old Timer,
You’re right – it *IS* warped! And most are a dysfunctional MESS because of it. What’s even sadder is that so many think it’s the “biblical” way to handle such. We’re all some sort of a mess, right? Jesus came to help us take care of the “mess,” not add to it!!!
It’s funny (not literally funny), we all seem to be running this situation by our pastor friends, or “in-the-know-spiritually” friends, and we’re all getting the SAME reaction…gasps!!
It’s SGM’s warped way of handling sin that causes so much of the dysfunction among their kids and young people. It breaks my heart for them.
Ian,
If you’re still reading, this thread represents what I was trying to communicate in the previous thread.
It is my opinion that the ”mastermind” behind how this situation was handled has a “stone thrower’s” heart.
Azaziah — will watch it asap. Thanks — I need a LOT of levity.
Square Peg –
Another thought. I think it was Irv, above, who spoke about pastors being taught to receive correction with great humility.
Receiving legitimate correction with a good attitude and humility is an admirable thing, and I do not in any way question the sincerity of anyone who has done that.
I totally agree with your statement. Let me expand (surprise, surprise
) on my issue with the PDI/SGM practice (which I call methodology) of correction.
The way this played out in practice, it controlled people in such a way that you couldn’t be honest or speak your mind without retribution. If you did speak out it would be construed as ‘your sin’ and any input you had would be deflected back on you.
The result is defeat, you leave worse off, discouraged, condemned, hurt, wounded, angry, etc. than when you walked in. After a couple of these type situations you become conditioned to shut up, submit and obey because the church is the happiest place on earth (sic) and you aren’t going to put yourself back in harms way. You don’t want to go through another ordeal with how screwed up you are so you look the other way because you love God, love the church and your relationships. With the constant focus on your sin andyour weakness who are you to say anything anyway.
It might also be worth it to say, Pastors live in their own insecurity as well and too many times any honest communication or criticism from people is taken personally and construed as disloyal not as love, concern and/or support for the pastor and the church. Then at some point, one of the big dogs comes in and tells the church to make the pastor’s life a joy by submitting and obeying – the deal is sealed – quit your complaining. It is an ongoing death cycle.
But at somepoint it implodes and explodes - hence SGMRefuge, SGMSurvivors!
Thank you Jim, Carol, Kris, Guy!!!
I think if another man told me I could not pray aloud due to propriety or implied that they had some special insight via prayer that was not available to me in a particular meeting, I would ask them where between the covers of the Bible there would ever be justification for that, what scriptures they have wrecked to even begin a liberal, subjective view of it that would ever lead them to such a cosmically stupid act…that is, if I didn’t try to kick their teeth through the back of their head first (God forgive me for such thoughts, but there they are).
I’ve read many disturbing things on this blog regarding the things that alleged Christians do to each other, but this has to be in my top five of the most disturbing (telling someone they cannot pray aloud in a 2+ person/group setting, particularly during a time when there are audible prayers being offered up to God).
This is a hoity-toity way of a pastor (or anyone, for that matter) telling you their crap and everyone else’s crap in the room smells oh-so-sweeter than yours–and we wouldn’t want to offer your worse-smelling crap to God, now would we?
How disgusting, how horrifying, and how pathetic.
God have mercy on all of us.
–pk
Yes, Pk,——- we are having the same reaction— just when we think we can no longer be shocked over yet another testimony of sgm pastoral abuse/conrol—–another “behind-the-scenes” story comes forth. The foundation of sgm contains serious cold-heartedness and deceptions—wrapped in a cloak of “Biblically correct doctrine”. Jesus gave us a barometer—we will know Christians by their fruit (not correct doctrine) –but, fruit that comes from walking with Him and abiding in HIM. And how did he condense that for us?– To love the Lord our God with all our heart,all our soul, with all our mind and with all our strength.And to love our ‘neighbors’ as ourselves. (Mark 12:29-31)
Love does NOT control, manipulate,deceive,wound,backstab,lie,destruct, idolize man,
And so if we watch those attributes continuously occuring in a ‘denomination’/family of churches—- we must identify said “fruit” for what it truly is = the seed this ‘fruit’ is coming from is NOT from I AM.
PK–is it my understanding that you are in law school?
Why not seminary?
Honest question.
Thanks in advance.
Why not a lawyer?
Some great men of God were lawyers, or equivalent to lawyers.
Moses, trained up in Pharaoh’s (Home School) to lead the country. (In Egyptian law I’d suppose.)
Isaiah, I believe was a highly trained fella in the government of his day. (Like a lawyer.)
Paul, A Pharisee of Pharisees. (Lawyer of that day.)
Luther, was in law school till he made a promise he kept. (Thank you God!)
Yeah, I think Lawyers can make fantastic Theologians.
PK, I hope that is what you are doing.
(Either that, or a cop.)
;>}
Careful there, PK!
Hope you appreciate my attempt at levity
It sounds like you are bitter, and that would invalidate your observations. Clearly, you are not thinking Biblically, and need someone to inform your thinking.
Your desire to pray out loud in public assemblies concerns me greatly, and obviously reveals a heart of pride and selfishness while displaying a clear lack of Christian maturity. I hope you appreciate my loving and tender care for your soul as I raise the awareness of your divisiveness and lack of humility to your care group leader and your pastor (and maybe a close friend or two just to make sure I have covered all the bases) I would tell you directly, but…well…gee… it’s just so much faster to initiate Matthew 18 that way! Besides, I am sure that your pastor stands in the stead of Christ for you, and you couldn’t get to God if you don’t go through him first!
But be of good cheer! Rest assured that the baseball bat, harsh words, and intimidating tactics are, Biblically speaking, proof of your Sonship. The harsher I discipline you, the more you will know that God loves you!!!
I am the worst sinner I know, so know that I am for you and want to be an encouragement to you in this soon to be tough season as you are bludgeoned and beaten into submission. I know you will find much grace in season!
———————————
One thing that has not yet been mentioned here about MN is that before he was at MLC, he was very actively involved in the original Shepherding Movement under one of the “Fort Lauderdale 5”. He personally felt the devastation that occurred when his church ended badly.
I hope MN has compassion on the people in MLC and takes a stand against cold authoritarianism / cronyism. I pray that God will use him to prevent the people in MLC from suffering the same harm as those hurt in his old Shepherding church.
Mike, you are in a position to make a difference. Speak out and stop the devastation.
Flotsam and Jetsam
This would make a great Saturday Night Live skit, but sad that it is so real, and your attempt at levity looked exactly like a page out of the playbook. I imagine that this is what your life in Denver was like, and all you were doing was playing back a tape as you typed. I pray that God keeps you in the palm of His hand, and that you flourish in your new grace filled Church.
Thanks for those kind words, Paul! I know that you guys will flourish as well. There is so much wisdom and experience that you and AgelessDebutante bring to the body of Christ! I am glad that you are now in a place where you are allowed to be all that Christ has intended.
And yes, the attempted levity is all too similar to what my wife and I went through in Denver. I’d like to summarize all of it as a post… and I might yet because I feel that it shows God for the magnificent being He is, and offers hope to those of you who are in the midst of it. There are pieces of my experience that I can finally laugh at, and even extend forgiveness to those that inflicted the worst hurt.
It is hard…very hard to be uprooted. But consider this simple illustration. I have had a plant for over a year now. It bloomed for a few months then stopped. Even in spite of sometimes being poorly watered, it lived through the year, staying green but not growing a whole lot. The blooming never returned. A few weeks ago, I bought a pot that would no longer constrain its roots. I had to tear roots apart (which had formed into an image of its container), and mud and dirt went everywhere as I moved it into another pot. In the few weeks since, it has begun to bloom again, and has nearly doubled its size!
I found SGM to be an awful lot like that old pot. I found myself being contorted into becoming someone I was not! And little by little, I stopped growing… I stopped blooming. Church became a drugery, and my passion for God subsided. What my wife and I went through uprooted us in a big way!
And now? I am again passionate about God, AND his church. Not a narrow, protective definition, but THE church. God is so much bigger than SGM. And so much more grace filled, loving, and kind. And He cares about YOU with a depth and passion that none of us can fully understand on this side of heaven. He sees your tears, knows the agony, and has not forgotten you, not for a second!
But check your roots… maybe it’s time for a new, bigger pot.
Hi RT:
You asked: PK–is it my understanding that you are in law school? Why not seminary? Honest question. Thanks in advance.
This is probably more info than you (or anyone else) wants to know, but here goes…
I never got my Bachelor’s (dummy…I could shake my younger self); I am not in law school; I am in the Criminal Justice Administration undergraduate program with the University of Phoenix (UoP); Here’s why:
(1) Primarily for health reasons; the one night a week in class with the rest of the work being web-based is better on my back than slogging books and such around on a massive campus.
(2) I was able to work loans/financial aid out the best way I could with UoP. I didn’t have two nickels to rub together for school.
(3) At one time I really wanted to go the seminary route. Even online seminary is very expensive, and the ones that are even worth a dang and have a currculum in realms of my aptitude do not do financial aid, and I am simply unaware of any scholarships to apply for in this area.
(4) Even if I could afford seminary, Protestant Dame will not be a pastor’s wife. I will let her ‘splain (or sum up) if she wants. This is to her credit, and there is no slighting pastors’ wives in that statement. Even if I became a pastor, she would not ever classify herself as a pastor’s wife.
(5) For once in my life I decided to go the route of assessment tests and the computer kicked out Criminal Justice based on my testing. So, I’ll go with it. Since there’s no such thing as a cop with a bad back, I may go into Criminalistics (this has the popular misnomer of “forensics,” thanks to Hollywood; think CSI with a lot less glamour, and that’s what Criminalistics is) or Forensic Psychology at the Master’s level, and with a teaching cert in hand I will teach (hopefully college level) whilst I work on my doctorate in who-knows-what-right-now at that point.
(6) I considered law school, but most schools are hung up on the Socratic method (as is the ABA). It is very, very hard at this point to get a ticket for the Bar exam with an online Juris Doctorae degree. It’s been done, but those who’ve done it had to keep power-hosing the courts to get it. If this changes in law education in the near future, I’ll consider this option.
Added to all of this, I have a passion to study and teach theology.
While we’re on this subject, if you all could keep us in your prayers as school and such is a load with the bad back and all. We need miracles here at the PK household. I don’t want PD to work forever if she doesn’t want to. Right now she is the breadwinner and makes sacrifices while I go to school and try to get healthier. The back/neck/foot situation is a very hard season right now. Stenosis, discs blowing out & arthtritis (all back and neck), benign tumors & arthritis & improper healing post surgery (foot)…all of it is so very painful and it brought my lucrative career as a field service technician to an end.
Pray I keep trusting God through the valleys and get past the eight million “you should (insert uninformed asinine comment absent of genuine help here)” comments from so many people. Sorry to sound jaded, but the sea of free advice is vast and deep.
We just need your prayers…
–PK
Well, here’s some good advice: accept our thanks for your ministry here, and our prayers for you and PD.
You are a wonderful teacher and theologian.
Flotsam and Jetsam:
Your attempt at levity was not well received. The beatings will continue until your morale improves.
Sincerely,
–pk
Love reading what you all say, its nice too know we have a place to go like this.
And PK- been reading alot lately thanx for the recomendations.
Jim, Find out how much it is to get predictive spell check like on a phone. Ill make a donation for it.
And finally to all you SGMers who come to this site but are afraid to let your voices be heard in your churches. BE BOLD!!!!!!!! Its easy for some of us who are no longer involved to write things. But believe me and i speak for myself, I love the people of SGM. And i consider them bothers and sisters in Christ. And all of us here want to help you and we are here for you. I love that song we used to sing. Refiners Fire, Good stuff knew we where heading down the wrong path when we stopped singing it.
Sorry everyone but just felt like someone needed to read that.
RT:
Thank you, and God bless you. That does mean a lot to me.
–pk
pdiwho-I’ll get right on that…
The mobile version of the blog looks pretty good, although it’s a freebie that has ads. You could always post from your phone ; -)
PK, (this is a total fluff post that has nothing to do with Metro or SGM: you have been warned,)
I didn’t know how similar our lives were in reality; I am a non-traditional student.
Generally, in the summer, I do research and in the spring and fall I’m taking classes. I just found out I got a fulltime assistantship, so I won’t be racking up school debt (yeah) but I’ll be putting in 20 hours of tutoring (hopefully I can handle the workload.) But I think I want to teach so the tutoring will be good experience and look good on my resume.
Forensics is cool; not faux Hollywood cool but the real thing is cool.
God bless PD for doing the grunt work. My DH has been extremely patient with me (my cousin ccalls him my wallet <g> but it is hard work and my son in law was in a similar situation working while my daughter went to med school, so I really appreciate the heart of the person that believes in us so much that he or she is willing to take up the slack for a few years.)
I am just catching up here… (well, actually just skimming comments as time allows)… and I have a question for all of you MLCer’s… (maybe this question has already been asked and answered and I missed it… sorry if this has already been addressed)
If I am reading correctly, it seems as if JN and his bride-to-be are repentant for their actions and are trying to do what’s right in this situation. Why in the world was their transgression announced to an entire church on a Sunday morning??? The leaders had known about the “situation” since JANUARY, but had to hurry up and announce to the entire church (visitors and children were present!) in JUNE??? I mean… REALLY??? In whose world is this biblical??? If they have confessed their sin, sought forgiveness from God, and their hearts are open to the leading of the Holy Spirit, WHY did DJ feel the need to share private information about this young couple to the entire church? Including children and visitors? DJ’s behavior in regard to this “situation” is disgusting at best… especially in light of his family “situations.” Talk about a pot calling a kettle black!
Oh, one other question. In DJ’s “state of the MN family” address that he delivered on Sunday morning, he said that this was a time for discipline and evaluation of MN. Now it’s being stated that MN is NOT under church discipline. Sooooo which is it? Did MN step down voluntarily or was he forced to step down? In light of SGM’s view on “being intentional”, I find it hard to believe that this was a slip of the tongue on DJ’s part, nor was it a poor choice of words… I *might* believe the “poor choice of words” excuse if DJ was speaking on the fly, but that was not the case here. DJ was not caught off guard… he had plenty of time (FIVE MONTHS!) to clarify his thoughts and his words. And this is the verbiage he chose to share with MLC??? And, oh yeah… to the visitors and children, as well? I don’t think that’s a very good way to beef up the attendance/membership roles that are slowly but surely shrinking! Methinks the visitors who were there that Sunday witnessing this sordid and revolting display just may not be come back to MLC. (If this behavior was attractive enough for them to want to come back, that alone would raise questions in my mind!) And with the exodus of longtime members from MLC, this just may be something DJ and the other leaders… oooops, I mean “leader”… just may want to think about. I’m just sayin”…
Sounds like there is some serious spinning going on from leadership at MLC…
And I won’t even ask why the MN and DJ family situations were treated so very differently. Unless you want to share your thoughts on this, as well.
So Metro… care to weigh in and give your opinion? I’d love to hear what you all have to say.
For MLC, another Question:
Perhaps you were all stunned at the unChristlike actions of your pastors and leaders announcing the situation of the young couple. Now you’ve had time to think about it.
Please please say you are outraged and you are going to voice your outrage????????????
And voicing your disgust at the degree of DEFLECTION all your leaders are willing to go to to deflect from the many concerns regarding DJ and BP??????????????????????
Carole said, “If I am reading correctly, it seems as if JN and his bride-to-be are repentant for their actions and are trying to do what’s right in this situation. Why in the world was their transgression announced to an entire church on a Sunday morning??? ”
Because it’s not about this young couple. The young couple has repented. That probably only took a matter of seconds once they found out their surprising “news”. The rest of this? All the rest? It’s about the church. Or rather, it’s about SGM. This has nothing to do with this couple and their repentance and everything to do with the main thing SGM cares about: their own reputation. “We have to look like we’re doing something about this, Guys.” Doesn’t matter if it runs contrary to the word of God, we can’t have anyone “out there” thinking that we don’t take “sin” seriously enough! God forbid. That is what the foundation of our teachings have been about for the past 15 years. Sin. So now we have a sin we can point to- or rather one that others may point to. We have to do something. Now. Make a big deal about it. SHOW THEM we mean BUSINESS. (Too bad they didn’t mean grace.)
This is not about the couple. Never was, never will be. This is about SGM and their reputation.
What does SGM and narcissists have in common? It’s all about them. Doesn’t matter who gets hurt around them, it’s all about them.
Stunned
and some days that I read here, grieved.
Love your post, Stunned. You wrote, referring to SGM ”…thinking that we don’t take “sin” seriously enough!”
Ironically, God did take sin seriously when GOD THE SON took ALL our sin into Himself, into His humanness as the second Adam and died with it ALL in Himself. He died, and we died with Him. The story doesn’t end there: He was resurrected, ascended, and sits (rests because it is Finished) with His Father as our head. That’s why there is now NO CONDEMNATION. We are IN HIM!!!!!!!! He is our covering, not some clown (sorry, I just had to write that) who went to the PC or some seminary. I could go on but don’t want to be burned at the stake for heresy. Oh, that’s right, they don’t do that anymore. They are more “loving” now with there “church discipline” witch trials.
Waters… very well said!!
It still blows my mind to think that DJ thought that announcing this to the MLC body was a good idea! Again, my perception of this young couple is that they had repented and were pursuing God’s will in their situation BEFORE the (now infamous) announcement was made by DJ in the Sunday morning meeting. It is my understanding that JN was moving, that being the last Sunday he would be at Metro, and that was the impetus for DJ to bring this to MLC’s attention “quickly.” Since when should sin be exposed to these great lengths when the sin has already been repented of???
Methinks DJ has some ‘splainin’ to do! He was either communicating why MN was undergoing “discipline and evaluation” (DJ’s words, not mine) because of the actions of MN’s adult son, or he was trying to accomplish something else by sharing the details of a repentant young man and young woman. No matter what DJ’s reasoning, he was wrong… DEAD wrong!! He was certainly not dealing with a young man, a member of the church, who was hard-hearted and not accepting responsibility for his actions. Far from it!!
Metro… are you okay with DJ’s actions and what he said and did in this situation? Do you think that DJ has a biblical leg to stand on? If so, that’s outrageous! Again, DJ and family faced this same type of situation not too long ago and it was handled very differently. Why?
I said it before and I’ll say it again… sounds like the pot (DJ) calling the kettle (MN) black. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander…
Ahhhhh… the Metro drama continues…
Stunned!
The ol’ SGM reputation… SGM (and DJ) have such a blatant, un-biblical view, don’t they??!!!
I could be mistaken, but shouldn’t a “family of churches” rather have a reputation of rejoicing and extolling God’s amazing forgiveness and mercy and rejoicing with those whose hearts are soft, listening to and being led by the Holy Spirit rather than the world’s view of God where they think He is ready to strike us all with lightning bolts at the merest of infractions (sins)?
What a missed opportunity for DJ and company to show mercy, forgiveness and love to this family… and show the church the love and forgiveness of God! And a missed opportunity to stand with and beside this family, showing support and love, defending them… not their sin, but their repentance!
(After all, wasn’t this what was extended to DJ and his fam during their son’s “infraction(s)”?)
What would THAT have done for their oh-so-important reputation???
Don’t forget, the email contained in the post at the top of this thread was emailed to all Florida pastors, to MLC home group leaders, and to other pastors (I have no idea how many).
“Church, don’t blog, facebook or twitter, but we’re going to blast this all over the state.”
Here’s a portion of what Danny said (emphasis mine):
“We also ask for your prayer as we process the implications of this for M as an elder of this local church – which is the reason this needed to be brought to the entire church.
As soon as the N’s return from the wedding in _______, we will be walking M through a season of evaluation and discipline. It will be a time that is motivated by a desire to posture M to humbly receive all the Lord has for him.”
Am I correct that Danny and some home group leaders are now saying that this was a misunderstanding, and that Mike is not under discipline, but taking some time off for reflection? If Danny is now saying that this is a misunderstanding due to a poor choice of words, why did the email blast not clarify his true meaning? All that was clarified was that Mike was not being fired. The preface still contains “season of discipline” language.
Perhaps it was a poor choice of words. When I heard this, my response was, “my goodness, this is what Danny does for a living”, and I agree with the lovely Carole that SGM is nothing if not intentional. Maybe the apostle Jones is slipping, who knows. What I do know is, no matter what the truth is, this will be a hard deal to sell.
Jim, I didn’t know if this is the right place to post my first message; please adjust accordingly.
Hello to all, this is my first post.
I have been in SGM for over 22yrs and over the last few months have been “taking it all in”, in an effort to evaluate and somehow reconcile my thoughts, feelings and observations concerning my family’s continued membership and involvement. Just to let you know, I have been in multiple leadership positions over the years and have, at many times, been “intoxicated” with position, pride, and man-pleasing kool aid.
I have been critically thinking “Critical thinking involves determining the meaning and significance of what is observed or expressed, or, concerning a given inference or argument, determining whether there is adequate justification to accept the conclusion as true. Hence, Fisher & Scriven define critical thinking as “skilled, active, interpretation and evaluation of observations, communications, information, and argumentation.” Moore & Parker define it more naturally as the careful, deliberate determination of whether one should accept, reject, or suspend judgment about a claim and the degree of confidence with which one accepts or rejects it.” about issues that I now believe are of significant importance.
These issues seem to stem primarily from SGM polity, however, I now believe have become a very deeply entrenched culture that “oozes” with a smell that seems to have changed it’s odor.
Ecclesiastical Polity - “Ecclesiastical polity is the operational and governance structure of a church or Christian denomination. It also denotes the ministerial structure of the church and the authority relationships between churches. Polity is closely related to Ecclesiology, the study of doctrine and theology relating to church organization.”
Has the seemingly over-emphasis on the cross, indwelling sin, sovereignty, “thinking vs. feeling”, and submission to “authority” created a “monster” that, based on SGM polity (which has been addressed thoroughly on this site), is loose to roam free, devouring many good folks; indiscriminately churning “fallen” past leaders and laymen through the “meat grinder”. Obviously, these are all very important realities taught to us in scripture in good measure. However, the “mixture” seems to be a common denominator that is producing harmful/hurtful “church life” situations that are repeating themselves over and over. It seems that life & joy has been “gutted” and replaced with obligation, guilt, man pleasing, pride, arrogance, unreconciliation and pain.
Just some thoughts and questions to offer up to many who are wiser than I.
A hard sell?
While there are a few people questioning and leaving, the church haas been taught so well not to question their pastors. Their pastors are standing in the very stead of God. How can you question them – that would be sinful. Their leaders are humble. Their leaders are led by great men of God who are published and their books are endorsed by mainstream church leaders aka Reformed Big Dogs. The people have been trained well how to handle situations like these. How many times have we seen on here that people have gone to their pastors to bring an observation, or ask a question and have been shot down – it is excellent training to get people to stop asking.
So I was watching a documentary on North Korea last night. It showed the incredible indoctrination of the people to worship Kim Jong-Il from birth. I saw a doctor come in from another country to do 1,000 cataract operations in a few days and train N Korean doctors in the practice. As he took the patches off their eyes and they saw for the first time in many, many years, they started to cry and immediately turned to photos of Kin Jong-Il and said “Thank you Great Leader!” and bowed to him and shouted praises to him. No thanks to the doctor who did the surgery – Kim Jong-Il had done this for them. His photos are everywhere, the only books in the country were written by his father. There is no internet/outside access allowed and the people sincerely believe without him they would be lost as a nation. At his fathers funeral the country was basically totally distraught that everything was lost and wondered how they could go on. They just know nothing else, and it is safe and they have been told their great leader cares for them.
Parallels?
Yesterday, I talked with a dear friend and said, “You won’t believe the most recent mess….”
And after she choked and gasped, she responded, “What church ISN’T going through mess these days? It’s everywhere,” and told me of an explosive situation currently unfolding in a reformed denomination. So, I looked at the blog regarding that problem –which has a horrible tone — while she checked out refuge. Thought some of you might be encouraged by her response.
“You know, these folks at SGM at least don’t rip each other and taunt each other. That may be the difference between actual Christians seeking truth and the (insert denomination name) which is full of saints, sinners, AND non-believers, a heritage of a church that is steeped in family traditions and the belief that if you are a member of that church you get your ticket punched.”
SGM’s heritage is just stepping into the 2nd generation, but we’re starting to see incidents that line up with her last sentence. If SGM survives several generations, the handwriting is on the wall.
The situation seems so hopeless — but our HOPE is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. As I think about this terrible mess, and pray, this beautiful hymn resonates through my soul :
The church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord….From heaven he came and sought her to be his holy bride — with His own blood He bought her, and for her life, He died.
Though with a scornful wonder men see her sore oppressed, by schisms rent asunder, by heresies distressed,
Yet saints their watch are keeping, (THANK YOU, SAINTS!)
Their cry goes up, ‘How long?’
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song.
‘Mid toil, and tribulation,
And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation
Of peace forever more;
Till with the vision glorious
Her longing eyes are blessed,
And the great church victorious
Shall be the church at rest.
WW- a lot of people are asking questions. I’m concerned with the answers given.
apelogeito-you are correct. The culture, or oral tradition, part of which is polity, has created an environment ripe for abuse. I know many within the SGM petri dish that have done well in this environment, while others obviously have not.
Apelogeito said:
“It seems that life and joy has been ‘gutted’ and replaced with obligation, guilt, man-pleasing…”
This was my and Mr. Canary’s experience over 13 years ago. Nothing seems to have changed. Unless people begin to resist this sort of polity, no change will happen. Welcome to the blog, by the way.
Square Peg,
Your post about other churches having polity problems is interesting. My brother-in-law is part of a church in VA (non sgm) whose leaders encouraged him to divorce his wife because she left the church (not Jesus, just that particular church). I kid you not. Being the dumb…er…faithful sheep that he is to his leaders, my b-i-law did as advised. He lost everything, including his house, and now lives (at the age of 48) with his mother. The church involved can certainly be called a “cult”.
apelogeito
Welcome to a place of grace and healing. One common thread here, among the heart ache, is that there is LIFE after SGM–really:-) Hope you find direction and clarification here.
apelogeito:
In re: June 18th, 2010 at 1:40 pm, you are doing the right thing, i.e., ” ‘taking it all in,’ in an effort to evaluate and somehow reconcile my thoughts, feelings and observations concerning my family’s continued membership and involvement.”
Your honesty in this statement is also refreshing, and not often seen here: “Just to let you know, I have been in multiple leadership positions over the years and have, at many times, been ‘intoxicated’ with position, pride, and man-pleasing kool aid.”
Your true humility and contemplation regarding your past, present, and future are good things, apelogeito. I don’t take these things for granted anymore, hence my focus on them.
I share your concern for the polity.
I am glad you are here, and welcome!
–pk
DB:
In regard to June 18th, 2010 at 7:54 am , thank you so much for your kind words, particularly in regard to PD. She is the best.
–pk
Carole said:
“If I am reading correctly, it seems as if JN and his bride-to-be are repentant for their actions and are trying to do what’s right in this situation. Why in the world was their transgression announced to an entire church on a Sunday morning???”
If the point of all of this was to indicated that DH was having to “step down” due what the other leaders saw as family issues why couldn’t they have just phrased it along those lines. As people have shared, the couple is repentant. Why broadcast this couple’s sin just because the son is JN’s son? Would they do this if this couple wasn’t one of the leaders children if the couple was repentant?
What if it is as simple as this:
Attendance is down, (offerings are down) and they need to cut a staff position.
MLC needs to protect the image that they are the “happiest place on earth.”
I mean, they can’t just cut one pastor due to people leaving the happiest place on earth, right?
So, to use a phrase from another realm, “never let a crisis go to waste,” they have this “sin” to deal with. Never mind that it is months old. It is useful now.
Keep the congregation distracted with the sin issue, and the organization can balance their budget, and as a bonus, make a show of control over this sinful situation.
The loyalists praise the wisdom of the leadership while judging the ones who leave as “Probably not believers anyhow,” and the happiest place on earth remains.
If I were a cult leader, that’s what I’d do.
Hello apelogeito, and welcome to the Refuge. I’m not what you’d call a regular poster here, although I am wifey to PK and a faithful lurker/reader with hopefully some Berean roots. I had to Google your name and I must say I love it (Greek for “to give an account of oneself”). The words and gracious tone of your carefully-thought-out introduction speaks volumes to me of a heart that is truly seeking answers and truth. To quote a dear friend of ours who once wrote us to ask our honest opinion on a matter, “Truth is better than darkness, even if it is hard and unexpected.” There are many hard and unexpected truths here, but remember His truth will expel all darkness. We look forward to more of your posts, your questions, your story (if you choose to share) and your fellowship.
And to everyone else here: thank you for all your kind encouragement to PK and me. We so appreciate everyone’s prayers. A special shout out to Jim & Carole (our comrades- or refugees-in-arms), to Flotsam & Jetsam (we miss those times around your fire pit), Defender & Defended (kind Coloradoans we should have gotten to know better) and Irv & his Mrs. (who’s love & support have meant the world to us). I’m always available to chit-chat offline with any posters or fellow lurkers… Protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
PD
PK — If I had the money, I’d scholarship you as far as you wanted to go! Hang in there — wherever God leads you, he’s gonna use you in wonderful ways. I pray that he’ll give you and PD the desires of your hearts — sooner and not later.
Defender
You throw out an interesting theory on why this pastor was “asked” to step down. That would be one way to save face. Like you said, with the church being the “happiest place on earth” there is no way that attendance and thus contributions could be down and it it was that would be really hard to admit.
Is attendance and thus contributions down that much that it is necessary to go down 2 pastors? As we know, before the announcement one pastor had already left. Two out of 4 pastors could mean quite a drop in contributions if that is really the reason.
Didn’t someone say this pastor was still going to be on staff and paid or is this not correct? If the pastor who stepped down isn’t being paid that would help support your theory.
Another theory might be that with contributions decreasing they couldn’t go back up to 4 pastors. Maybe they had hoped to backfill Todd’s position with a family member (nepotism in action again). Thus they had to do what they did to make an opening for this family member.
Just another theory.
It was hard to listen to CJ babbling at Metro, about the severety of false teachers. Jim, in light of his message thank you for Contending with Sovereign grace ministries and their so many twisted, idoltry filled ways.
As far as time goes. Sovereign Grace ministries is in some kind of time warp…..
I’ll get back to you means 2- 3 years
Phone calls 7-8 months
bringing out “sin” immediately after HUGH 25th anniversary celebration…….6-9 months…
I was ticked off when I read/saw/heard about that e-mail. This kind of information shared with pastors blows their heads up like the blimp. It is unnessary. And some of the other pastors should be thinging just about this time…hummm…I’m sure glad my adult child is out of state, cause this is all to close to home.
It is easy for Dan Knee to focus on EVERYONE ELSE so that he truly never looks at the real problems. But let us all exhalt CJ…each and every time…..His message ways way off balance…
Square Peg:
In re: June 19th, 2010 at 12:18 am, thank you…very kind words and your prayers are precious to me and PD.
–pk
Steve240,
You make another interesting possibility, back fill the positions with PKs.
Hmmmmm.
Time will tell.
I’m just saddened to see such hypocrisy in the name of God, and at the expense of the Church.
I have something funny to share, well its not funny to me but it may be funny to some of you. My church is going through a ruff patch with a used to be staff pastor who wont submit to the 5 person laymen board. The reason why i think its kinda funny is because they ( the elders of my church) Sent the overall state board packing last week. Its kinda funny how my church runs differently then SGM does. We have elders that said Sorry we know our church and this was our ruling and the whole church knows we are meeting so thats it final no appeals. The meetings where open and the whole church got a vote. And then the elders met privately to talk it all out. Finally about a week later that was it. But this pastor is still throwing a huge Fit. Just thought some of you would enjoy that. I wonder what SGMers could do if they ever realized that as a whole they are alot stronger then the machine is. I mean really if they all could get organized and say we aren’t taking it anymore then something wonderful could happen. How funny would it be if they sent C.J. back to that happy place with his tail tucked between his legs.
I don’t really know the details of this situation, and I’m left to speculate because of the omissions from the email. I’m just wondering if this were handled in a less obvious way whether the old familiar charges of back-room pastoral politics would surface. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, I suppose.
Stated explicitly: There’s no way this church could have handled this situation that would satisfy many of the people here. By its very nature of association with SGM, it’s guilty. Period. Publicly informing the congregation, results in cries of “OMG!! The horror! The embarrassment!” Handling the issue privately would undoubtedly result in cries of “OMG! They’re covering up pastoral sin!” Not everyone is like this here, but I think the attitude is far too pervasive.
Frankly, scripture seems pretty clear, and if nothing else it’s nice to see that someone has the cohones to take it seriously. *If your pastor has an unruly family, you have reason to doubt his calling.* That’s not me speaking, or CJ, or anyone else, that’s God himself speaking. Grace is allowing them to step down, perhaps with a paid staff position so they’re still able to support their family. Grace is assuring them of forgiveness and continued blessing in a different vocation. But according to scripture, grace is not overlooking the situation and allowing the pastor to continue preaching or ministering. I’d hope this would be evident even in a congregational church government.
facedown2000:
You said: “Stated explicitly: There’s no way this church could have handled this situation that would satisfy many of the people here. By its very nature of association with SGM, it’s guilty. Period. Publicly informing the congregation, results in cries of ‘OMG!! The horror! The embarrassment!”’ Handling the issue privately would undoubtedly result in cries of ‘OMG! They’re covering up pastoral sin!’ Not everyone is like this here, but I think the attitude is far too pervasive.”
There needs to be room in this discussion for people to simply write what they witness without all of the characterization of blog posters and commenters, in my opinion. People are told to be quiet in their churches regarding these situations, for the most part, and generally upon close examination this is designed as a CYA tactic for leaders and those above them. Discussions on this blog are too public for some; for others, it helps them to get a wider range of take(s) on a particular situation, which in many cases (like myself) helps them to not pass severe judgment. Before we are all declared both generically and inifinitely unsatisfied, please keep that in mind. Stated explicitly, let’s have room for all of our knee-jerks and being able to hash it out, shall we?
facedown2000 & everyone else:
The primary concern raised here is that even though there may be questionable or bad tactics in the treatment of MN, it is not how the demotion/de-gifting was done; it’s how there is an imbalance with two specific situations as Jim stated (yet again):
“I still have the same questions. Why is a pastor held accountable for the actions of his adult son, whose covering is Christ, not dad? If this is the oral law at MLC, why did Danny get a pat on the back from CJ, and a promotion when his adult [son] sinned in a way that although similar (sort of), was much more serious in regards to those effected by it? [emphasis added] I really don’t get it…”
Please understand, I can understand the controversy over how MN’s situation was (mis)handled. But it seems to me to be a bunny trail all of us keep getting lost down, and one that leads away from a question Jim has asked over three or four posts now on the blog (the above one), in how the situations with two different adult sons are handled vastly different and appear to be exhibiting a less than savory and very public level of favoritism and cronyism. Additionally, if one were to evaluate the public nature and seriousness of them, here’s Jim’s compelling question (again):
“If this is the oral law at MLC, why did Danny get a pat on the back from CJ, and a promotion when his adult [son] sinned in a way that although similar (sort of) [to the MN situation], was much more serious in regards to those effected by it? ” [emphasis added]
The closest anyone from SGM came to even trying to answer this question was 30 Years’ incredibly generic assertion that there may have been mitigating circumstances warranting uneven treatment, but his copout and so-called answer was negated by his systematic trashing of everyone on this blog, himself excepted of course.
Nobody from SGM (at least from what I have read, and if I am mistaken please direct me to the proper comments) has yet even attempted to tackle this question, and to me it’s the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. Everyone acts like it isn’t there, but it keeps growing every time Jim asks it and the non-answers keep piling up.
–pk
Facedown,
You might have missed something we are talking about here.
The pastor who was (asked, made, forced, whatever) to step down for sin of his adult son, was done so by a pastor who’s son is also in sin.
Jesus said “He who is without sin cast the first stone.”
The man who decided to make a public spectacle of one pastor is just a guilty himself.
We are discussing the hypocrisy of the second pastor, and the organization that supports him.
Can you comment on that?
PK said:
“Nobody from SGM (at least from what I have read, and if I am mistaken please direct me to the proper comments) has yet even attempted to tackle this question, and to me it’s the 800 lb. gorilla in the room.”
That will be something to hear if someone from SGM ever answers this question. My guess is they are keeping silent and hoping that all the questioning of this apparent double standard goes away. Put another way they probably don’t have a valid scriptural explanation so are just dodging the question.
I do like the possible reasons for wanting to get rid of this one pastor that Defender and I have come up with. As Defender says, time will tell.
PK-someone posted a comment that Mike’s 23 year old son was living at home. Weak..
Folks, don’t forget that the current position is that Mike is NOT under discipline, it was simply a poor choice of words, and that he is being given some time for reflection. You see, this is not a flip flop or attempt at spin in any way, this is simply a clarification
Steve and Defender, your tree is pure speculation, which is without any evidence. It was stated from the beginning that Mike was not being fired. I think you’re bumping the curb.
facedown, I’ve been telling SGM leadership that Danny is unqualified since 2005. The guy gets a free pass regarding the actions of his entire family.
Don’t tell me about “cohones”.
Thanks Jim,
It was a random thought as I read, and decided to post it.
Truly random, and off topic I admit.
Jim’s question: “If this is the oral law at MLC, why did Danny get a pat on the back from CJ, and a promotion when his adult [son] sinned in a way that although similar (sort of) [to the MN situation], was much more serious in regards to those effected by it? ”
Well, I’m in SGM, but I am certainly not in any form of leadership and I don’t attend MLC. I see no reason for me to defend SGM leaders’ apparent wrong decisions here. The uneven treatment does give the appearance of evil and the SGM leaders in question need to make a clear public statement themselves about why they treated DJ and MN differently. Um, I really think there are a lot more than the required 2 or 3 witnesses to bring an accusation against these elders.
Jim
I agree that my comment on doing this as a way to open up a slot for a family member is pure speculation. I thought I noted my comment as such.
SGMsingle:
SGMsingle, I’d like to use you as a positive example in this comment, and please let me know if I am misrepresenting you:
In reference to June 19th, 2010 at 10:49 am, your honesty is bold and refreshing. Thank you.
Is anyone else in SGM going to imitate SGMsingle’s boldness, or are we going to hear more “you’re not here at x, you don’t understand y, I have personal knowledge regarding z, etc etc etc.” ?
This statement by SGMsingle is as plain to understand as understanding can possibly get:
“The uneven treatment does give the appearance of evil and the SGM leaders in question need to make a clear public statement themselves about why they treated DJ and MN differently. Um, I really think there are a lot more than the required 2 or 3 witnesses to bring an accusation against these elders.”
Once again, bold and refreshing honesty.
–pk
Isn’t this an example from sgm leadership to “do as I say, not as I do?” Isn’t this part of the whole problem – that people there are either too frightened or too enamoured of these men to challenge them on this obvious double standard? As SGMsingle rightly says, “Um, I really think there are a lot more than the required 2 or 3 witnesses to bring an accusation against these elders.”
This blog can only raise the questions and point out the problems in sgm. It is the people still involved in the organization who must act. Get out the hammer and nails, folks. Nail your thesis to the church door and get some answers.
Hi, Facedown! I was reading your comments above, and if you’re new here, you may have missed a few things. Jim has stated several times, and I paraphrase, that he doesn’t want to paint SGM, et al, into a “darned if you do and darned if you don’t” corner. The SGM church I attended handled several difficult “family meeting” situations well, and that has been duly noted several times on the blog. Others have often stated good things. But the very nature of this blog is not about the good things — it’s about the things from which we needed refuge.
The Metro Mess is complicated; every question begs another and we often go hopping down those bunny trails. We’re aghast at the circumstances within the two different situations, but the seeming preferential treatment one vs the harsh handling of the other is the crux of the matter. Add to that the awkward and in my view, inappropriate and sinful public humiliation that occurred — and yes, there are many elements that beg examination.
Another bunny trail: I happened on this quote on FB this morning, and immediately brought to mind the Worst Sinner Contest….
If I cannot in honest happiness take the second place (or the twentieth); if I cannot take the first without making a fuss about my unworthiness, then I know nothing of Calvary love.” Amy Carmichael 1867-1951 (emphasis mine)
Bingo. And from a female missionary to India…
As I have said before, it isn’t the first time there is an apparent double standard whre some SGM Pastors step down while others are allowed to remain. I haven’t heard of SGM explaining those so doubt they will explain this one.
For example one pastor at CLC who is C.J.’s brother in law didn’t have to step down when one of his children were misbehaving. Other pastors with similar problems at CLC had to step down. There certainly seemed to be a double standard here just like at MLC. I am sure there are other examples.
I wonder about the wives and children of the pastors asked to “step down”. How does this effect them? Their sense of security? The emotional trauma is significant. Sorry about the sentiment. Apparently (according to someone quoting CJ) sentiment and emotion do not build the church. There’s just this thing about we women – we are full of it! Sentiment and emotion, that is. Some more than others, I’ll admit. Yet we are also able to have the mind of Christ.
I just wonder how these pastors’ wives handle the stepping down process? Nothing is mentioned about that. The emotional trauma has to be very great as they watch their husbands get “disciplined” by men they trusted. Oh wait, MN isn’t being disciplined, now. Right? Or wrong? Anyway, how is his wife doing? His adult kids who have walked well and are watching the process? I hope there are people offering them support.
If I cannot in honest happiness take the second place (or the twentieth); if I cannot take the first without making a fuss about my unworthiness, then I know nothing of Calvary love.” Amy Carmichael 1867-1951
Excellent quote, Square Peg. I’m going to write that one down…
Amen! “If I cannot take the first without making a fuss about my unworthiness, then I know nothing of Calvary love.” This goes right along with a statement I heard recently. (Paraphrased) “Get rid of false humility and allow God to shine through us. Admit that we have something from God and allow Him to use us for His glory.”
Our unworthiness was drummed into our heads in my SGM church. The fact that we were worms was heard directly and indirectly in almost every teaching, every relationship, every, everything throughout my many years within SGM. I have come to learn that it was a false humility that was taught to us. It was a false humility that said I am terrible and I am not worthy. For example, “Better than I deserve…..” Yes, we don’t deserve anything but man, God wants to bless the very socks off our feet! He has promised us abundant life!!
Praise God! He has taught me and brought great revelation to my heart (since I have been out) that I am (and all His children) so very, very valuable to Him and that I am not in anyway a worm! Jesus Christ died on the Cross for me (and for you) because we are SO valuable to Him!!! Wow! Very excited and psyched – He loves us so much and He delights in His children!!! Whoopee!! Dancing all around!! Laughing!!! Full of JOY!!! NO MORE SPIRIT OF HEAVINESS BUT COVERED IN THE GARMENT OF PRAISE; NO MORE ASHES BUT BEAUTY; NO MORE MOURNING BUT COVERED IN THE OIL OF JOY! THE GREAT EXCHANGE HAS TAKEN PLACE – ALL BECAUSE OF JESUS CHRIST!! HE CAME TO SET THE CAPTIVES FREE! HALLEJUAH!
I noticed facedown’s very sloppy interpretation, but let it pass, thinking that someone would pick up on it.
This is more sad fruit of SGM’s oral tradition.
Thanks!
Jim said “PK-someone posted a comment that Mike’s 23 year old son was living at home. Weak..”
So true, especially since he lived in an apartment in the garage, off the house. What they supposed to do, put laser beams on the house, with the chastity belt?
Jim, Looking forward to 07-07-10. Metro’s next family meeting.
Oh Fred, it is so good to read your words and to see how the Lord has given you revelation of His love. I’m celebrating with you.
Amen, Fred!
Thank you Canary soooo much! I am so thankful for our deliverance from SGM and our newfound freedom in Christ. Life’s circumstances try to steal our joy but we must keep our eyes focused on Jesus Christ and the great and amazing VICTORY – DID I SAY VICTORY? YES! V….I….C….T….O….R….Y IN JESUS!!
what i think is strange is how people avoid the members or pastors that have been disiplined like the plague. YOUR not going to catch any more sin then you had before people!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do pray like everyone on here for the family. And i also pray for the leadership of that church may God have mercy on them for casting such a harsh judgement on there brother. But we all know the Lord will like everything else in life work even horrible things out for his Glory. I pray for the church in there hour of need and will be on my knees for them on the seventh.
PK,
No, you are not misrepresenting me. SGM leaders need to address this uneven treatment of DJ vs MN publicly. The leaders who decided how to handle these two situations are in public ministry and have already made public statements about the two situations. Based on just the publicly known details in each case it is clear to most people that there is “the appearance of evil”, that is, inappropriately uneven treatment.
This is not a private matter like the necessarily private details of the sins of the children. The perceived sins of the fathers are publicly announced decisions showing apparent favoritism. There are many witnesses to these public decisions. Public leaders need to give public answers about public decisions that give the appearance of favoritism.
From a father of sinful children, to all fathers of sinful children here,
HAPPY FATHERS DAY ALL!!
Defender,
Aw, come on…you guys are SAINTS. Happy Father’s Day!
Defender – ‘dittos to all and back at you’
Christ made us righteous not the church! The Holy Spirit sanctifies us not the church. The church is the saints of God not a group of sinners holding on till He comes for us.
Rom 8:17-25
Canary,
Thanks!
But notice I said our kids are sinners. (Didn’t mention myself, heh heh.)
JUST KIDDING! (To my own kids who also read here from time to time.)
Our children, as believers, are also SAINTS of God.
AND fellow heirs with us.
Metro, One more question if I may:
With the perspective of the integrity of Gods Word, will you— band together—and REQUIRE
your leaders to truthfully and clearly define the unbalanced treatment of DJ and MN???
A) WHY the differential treatment?
B) Shall everyone wave their flip-flops to get the attention of the leaders on their nebulous,
flip-flopping communication in regards to MN’s current “posture”—- is he:
*”under a season of evaluation and discipline” (as stated in letter) or…..
*being given some time off for reflection
‘Differing weights are an abomination to the Lord, and a false scale is not good.’ Prov 20:23
______ – In response to the verse you added “1 John 3:9“Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” (NKJV)”
We had this guy living with us for a few years that was a disciple of “Jed Smock” (do an internet search- it’ll make you laugh) and actually would state that since he was a Christian he never sinned anymore and any Christian that taught we still were capable of sinning was not a “Real Christian” (This idiot also got speeding tickets, had a terrible temper and sinned in so many ways that it was quite amusing)
Anyhow – Happy Father’s Day to all my fellow saints. That’s the word Paul used when addressing the various churches, wasn’t it? I don’t remember him writing “To my fellow sinners in Ephesus…….etc etc etc”
Waters
No. If you dont go to metro, you are in no position to pick apart letters and statements of people you have no interaction with. That goes for everyone on here who sits at home with their cats miles away from Metro, who thinks they have some sort of credible opinion. We love Danny, we love Benny, we love Mike, and we love Metro Life Church. Mind your own business.
Dweeb who calls himself metro life church,
Are you taking your t-shirt (“I am Metro Life Church”) a little too literally?
Anyway, thanks for your excellent comment. Doggonnit, I’m going to shut this blog down right now!
(For those who missed it, DFMLC posted under the name, “Metro Life Church”. Way to represent…)
Dweeb from Metro Life Church (why pick that anonymous name??? Weird!), From the many emails we have received from MLC, I can assure you that you do not speak for everyone at MLC. Kind of arrogant for you to assume that you do. The questions from Waters and everyone else here regarding the hypocritical behavior by DJ are valid. You may not like it, but we have every right to ask these questions. Oh, by the way… we are minding our own business… the treatment of the body of Christ should be every believer’s business. Too bad it’s not yours as well.
And your attitude stinks… your anger and pride are very much evident in your comment. Do you really think that what you said and how you said it will make us look upon MLC, DJ, and SGM in a good light? Think again! But thanks for playing!
Dweeb – “mind your own business”
Please re-connect with the real world. As long a SGM continues to send the destroyed and devasted out into the world, I guess it is our business. You certainly may be MLC but until you secede from ‘the church’ you are part of us and we are part of you. I heard once that we are all members of the same body. At the present time there are a lot of us that don’t really appreciate the fruit you are disseminating and feel that it needs a bit of improvement.
dweeb from metro -
I am glad you love your pastors and your church. In expressing your love, you should be concerned about what has happened in the last few years, especially what has happened in leadership. Seriously concerned. Seriously concerned to the point of action. You should be asking questions. You should be asking very hard questions. Good grief, man, don’t just blindly follow and trust – there is no love in that for your pastors or your church!
People on this blog have gone to and do go to MLC. People on this blog have gone to and do go to other Florida churches that are uder the leadership of MLC pastors. People on this blog care about MLC and its pastors as well as SGM leadership in general. If you took the time to prayerfully read through this blog, you may find the Lord will open your heart to the serious issues in SGM churches and the need for reform. Alternatively, the Kool-Aid is there and it tastes good, and the leaders say ‘drink up!’. Free will.
Where does our new friend, Dweeb, find support for his rather rude, “Mind your own business,” quip?
From the Bible?
“You are your brother’s keeper.”
Or Proverbs 24:11, “Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter.’
The following verse, “If you say, “But we knew nothing about this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?”
Keeping people quiet isn’t God’s modus operendi, Dweeb. He isn’t the, “Lets this be our little secret,” sort of God and it isn’t a particularly noble gesture to muzzle and gag others.
If was a bad movie, but you remind me of one of the Davy Jones’ sailor in the second Pirates of the Carribean, you’re such a slave to your ship that the distinction between you and the woodwork upon which you attach yourself has become disturbingly blured.
Grow a set….of cerebrall hemispheres, that is, and practice some original thought. Heck, awallow the red pill and dislodge yourself from the Metrox alltogether. Having your own thoughts is rather nice, getting to open one’s mouth and opine without worrying about Agent Smith getting into your head; priceless.
Dweeb from MLC,
Truly, from great concern and love for the Body of Christ are these questions asked.
God has given mankind the wonderful ability to…think……..and question…and He promises we will find Truth. As Christians we are ever engaged in fighting/seeking for Truth. Why??
Because in the world we can become deceived…and we have a very real adversary who is known as “the father of Lies”. We have seen pastors, ateam members and leaders in 2 different large sgm churches: backtrak, misconstrue, lie to and deceive their members.
This is an unGodly practice. To cause the Brethren to believe lies and then order their lives accordingly isNOT building the church on Jesus Christ.
You at Metro have an opportunity to actively ask questions……pray for discernment (because leaders answer using the exact same sgmese verbiage)—decide whom you will serve and follow after—an institution or our Risen Redeemer.
And, oy, I would never sit amongst cats—– serious dog loving family, are we!
I take it, Jim, that you added “Dweeb from” to his posting name of “Metro Life Church?”
If so, good for you.
Here’s another example of someone in his/her church not at all concerned about justice, righteousness or futherance of the kingdom…but only covering the sins of the leadership.
Oh brother.
Dweeb,
I’m with Waters. Can’t abide cats. I keep mine in a cage. Let him go for a while but he was causing too much havoc, especially for Stunned after her latest remarkable description of her horrid time in a pastor’s office. Did you read that, Dweeb?
Jim,
I do take Metro Life Church seriously. Do you think you take this blog a little too seriously? All the time you devote to it (apparently youve never had a real day job) to give the same 12 angry and bitter people a place to gripe about SGM issues, seems to be a little overkill/pointless. Oh yes, thats right, im sure you get over 40,000 hits a month. Well minus the 30,000 hits between you and the other 12, the rest of us are just checking in amused, and laughing. Tell you what, how about you find a third party analytics tracker, and make it all public knowledge? Oh, let me guess, “im not a member and youre not going to dignify that with a response.”
And if we’re going to start comparing leaders and their children, doesnt your own sons choices disqualify YOU from leading this “ministry”. If you moderate this, i totally understand, its horrible when your dirty laundry is put up on a website for everyone to give an opinion on and critique.
Dweeb (DFMLC ), About a year ago (and this is where I “out” myself) I was a bigger “dweeb” from Metro and came on these blogs attacking these “mean people” that didn’t know what they were talking about. I was stupid enough at that time to put my first and last name to prove I believed in what I was saying and felt that to hide behind a fake name was cowardly. (I now see that putting one’s full name on the internet was not a bright thing to do, but that is another story) I felt the same way you did, that this ” blog” was attacking those that I loved, and I was going to be the “voice of reason” to show them the error of their ways. By viewing all of those that write as “this blog” is like cursing at the cars in front of you in a traffic jam. Those faceless cars contain mothers, fathers, children, and it may surprise you that many of those anonymous cars contain friends of yours. How would it feel to flip off a car, drive by and see a girl you have been thinking about courting? You see DFMLC, there are many of your friends from Metro writing here, as well as ex-members that have nowhere else to turn in their pain. If you ever read any of the stories you would find some very sad things that have happened under the watch of SGM and have been handled with has much care as the altar boys in the RC Church with pedophile priests.
After Metro had it’s August “we are now going to be more open” meeting, we decided to try that out, only to be met with, “your observations are full of sin”. Imagine turning to your wife, asking her for input into your life, only to tell her she is “full of sin” after she offers her evaluation. We don’t do that to our spouses, and I dare say that I doubt that anyone in SGM leadership would try it on their spouse, and yet it is the modus operandi in dealing with the flock when they bring an uncomfortable observation to the Pastor. The last Metro Family meeting had many verbalize their concerns (the top one being “how can the 3 alcoholics now hold each other accountable?”) only to be stifled by the microphone taken away from any voice of dissent and handed to those that would only sing the praises of the leadership. Imagine the press only taking opinions from those that loved BP gasoline rather than allow the tough questions to be asked as to how we got into this whole oily mess and how can we stop the leak and prevent future leaks. Imagine BP saying “you can’t ask that question, it is full of pride, you have never even worked on an oil rig, and don’t know the first thing about drilling”. Well, my dear DFMLC, we may not be rig operators but we can see the damaged birds, and wildlife, as well as the families that are unable to ever trust another oil company because of the policies that keep them from approaching the leadership with valid questions. If the oil analogy is too confusing, let me put it in plain English. These “blog people” are brothers and sisters in Christ. Most of them are former members of Metro, or other Sovereign Grace Churches. There are at least 25 fewer families sitting among you since last August’s “season of openness” and that number will swell after the family meeting on July 7th when there is more vagueness and further lack of transparency exhibited by your leadership. Valid questions are being asked as to how there can be a double standard with Danny and Mike, and yet, you are so ready to fight for your church you don’t want to see this. Imagine the mayor of your town getting a $25 dollar fine for a DUI with a blood alcohol level of 4.0 and your father getting his license revoked for a BAL of 1.2?
Judging by your screen name, I imagine you are young and just upset that anyone could attack the church that you have grown up in. Freedom of thought is never an “attack on a church” but rather a call to reform. No one is looking to see SGM and Metro destroyed, but rather desire to see reform in a movement that many of us poured 20 – 25 years of our lives into. Consider this the 21st century “95 Thesis of Martin Luther”. That wasn’t accepted, either, when he nailed it to the Wittenburg Door .
To those of you ready to attack dweeb, remember where you were at dweeb’s point in your time in SGM. The confusion and anger would rise up in you also, as you saw those you loved being attacked. Let all we say, be seasoned with the grace and love of Christ. It has been said before, we will all be around the same Throne, worshiping for all eternity and this will not even cross our minds.
Dweeb from MLC,
I am a current and longtime Metro Life member and I too love my pastors even though I hate what has been happening. I don’t know who you are, but I find your tone extremely offensive.
P.S. I outed myself a long time ago. How about you?
Good thinking, dweeb. Make it personal.
I lie about traffic and my 25 year old son has disqualified me from running a blog.
You’re a sharp guy.
My dear MLC friend….
Instead of throwing around unfounded accusations, could you actually address one, just ONE question, which all of us are asking:
Why the differing standard between two pastors of adult sons who have sinned?
OK, maybe a second: why this inappropriate public outing, in front of children and non-believer visitors, of a young believing pair who are planning to marry asap (shoulda done it already, guys)?
Stop childishly throwing your little rocks and name-calling.
Answer a dang question, for once in your life (since you call yourself “Metro Life Church,” I figure I can speak to you in the third person plural?)
Side note: you’d think all this homeschooling would produce students who can use logic and rhetoric and argue points, but rarely seems to be the case. Bummer.
Dweeb, you mention the number “12″ as those that contribute to this blog. Since January 9th, 2010 with the title
Metro Life Church
and the 1st post” Dorothy is Leaving Oz on Jan 7″
There have been 1,462 letters written.
My congratulations to those 12 other people that have taken the time to write 122 letters. (Looks even funnier when written, than when I was doing the numbers on the calculator)
DWEEB. Be honest. How can 1,462 letters not represent a large number of concerned members, and ex members?
RT, don’t go blaming it on home schooling! Dirty pool!
I have to say, Camp Destiny sure was a bright moment for Metro this month! A whole lot of folks sure did something right.
Paul, your HERO is working hard to bring forth some fruit today. Maybe 7 pounds of it or so? We’ve been sitting here talking theology this afternoon to pass the time.
Paul,
Nope, Jim felt the authority to add “dweeb from” in front of “Metro Life Church” which was my original posting. Apparently moderating means adding to/making stuff up in people posts. Yes, it is childish. So much for the ”im simply an impartial referee” approach to this clearly two sided blog. Apparently, if you agree with Jim, he doesnt change anything. If you dont, he adds things to your post as if you said it. Awesome. However, I will wear the name proudly, as a clear way to distinguish myself from the other people on this blog (who now it seems may just be Jim posting as 7 different aliases to drive traffic. Naw, he doesnt care about traffic that much.)
To answer your question, im not young, i have spent years in the church and have gone through enough church politics to last a lifetime. I speak for the rest of Metro (if you want to exclude yourself from this group, feel free to post) when i say that this blog and the past events have if anything made our church stronger, not weaker, out of a desire to fight those who want to try and tear down what God has created.
Fired up,
DWEEB
Jim, still waiting for a response.
MLC (aka Dweeb), I am not an alias and you do not speak for me. Click my name.
Dweeb. I changed your name because we are currently talking about Metro Life Church. To use the name of your church as a blog handle is confusing, and MLC probably would not choose you as their representative. I did not touch the contents of your first post. I did remove a sentence from your second post, which had nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me. You’ll notice that I edited details from Danny’s proclamation at the top of this thread, and have deleted details of the specific sins of pastors adult children in a few posts. I did not do, nor do I do what you have accused me of, and you know it. You are “fired up” to the point of lying. Take a breath.
You’re waiting on what response? No, my adult children do not disqualify me from running a blog.
Is it the traffic question? I’ve posted pics from the analytics I get from my hosting company.
Why don’t SGM defenders ever engage in the realm of ideas? I can’t remember a time when someone like (DF)MLC ever answered a single question logically and using the Word acurately.
Also, I notice that women are usually ignored.
Hmm. Good defence of your denominational practices.
Paul, very interesting. Thank you for your comments.
MetroStill–
I love your blog, as well as everything you bring to the table here–you are gracious and discerning.
I’m a homeschooler, too, and teach a pile-load of other “homeschooled” kids. I wasn’t attacking, but I’d bet you money you are well aware of the deficits in many HS families in terms of Berean thinking.
Dear Mr. Dweeb,
I believe the response others are having to you is such due to the aggressive and somewhat childish approach that you are taking to the debate and observations at hand. Perhaps you enjoy the attention, however, I do not believe it is serving Christ or his church to take this cavalier stance.
Please use scripture to support your position. I respect your seemingly dedication and loyalty, they are good qualities, however, you will be less effective if you continue your childlike rants. Please take a moment and be still before the Holy Lord and trust HIM.
I’ve “been there, done that”
Also, I notice that women are usually ignored.
Thanks, RT. I thought I was imagining that.
Dweeb,
Perhaps you know the poster, Paul. Please take a deep breath—maybe even practice that humility posture sgm exhorts us all in — and slowly, prayerfully reread his post at 5:28.
Dweeb, I owe you an apology. I’m sorry I responded to you in the way I did.
The question is not about parental responsibility… the issue is that 2 MLC pastors were treated very differently when their adult children sinned. Why? That’s the million dollar question. Why did DJ get a pass and MN did not? Same circumstances, although DJ’s adult son’s sin affected many more people than MN’s adult son’s sin did.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy in this situation? Do you really think that this is okay, or are you just defending your pastors and your church? What is your reasoning?
I’m truly puzzled by your comments.
Cats?! clearly not.
Hey Dweeb, you might have been 13 when DJ asked, but according to a former member you have been asked, ‘It’s your church, Metro. What do you want to do with it?’
Are you seriously ok with the hypocrisy on public display?
No Dweebs here.
Oh, man. Let me get this straight: a mere member of the church posts a comment under the name “Metro Life Church” and portends to speak for the entire church?
I feel an observation / correction coming on.
Maybe this mere member has some well-mentioned initials?
There sure is a lot of anger there over our “observations”. Seems like someone is wanting to turn it around and deflect what we’re saying.
Dear ______ (and Jim),
I’m not certain why what seemed (to me) simplest of paraphrases is “very sloppy” and “horrendous” to you. If the traits listed in the epistles to Timothy and Titus don’t refer to the qualifications (i.e. prerequisites to “calling”) of church leaders (i.e. the leader of *your* church), perhaps you can tell me your interpretation? I don’t think the definitions I’m using are out of line with current mainline evangelical thinking. Some support for elders = overseers = pastors can be found in Acts 20, so I think I’m okay there. Thus, given the definitions and scripture, my paraphrase seems like a logical inference, and I’m not sure what the problem is.
The only thing I can think of that you may have an issue with is this statement: “Systematic interpretation of God’s words carries the very weight of God’s words themselves, to the degree that the interpretation is sound.” This is self-evident to me, and if someone can draw a logical path through scripture to support an idea, then I need to take that logic just as seriously as if it were stated explicitly in scripture. At the same time, if the arguments are less certain, the mandate is proportionately less. If you disagree with me there, we’ll have to leave it at that, but it didn’t sound like you disagreed with that statement–it seemed you had a problem with my reasoning itself, which (as I said above) seems sound to me.
Kind regards,
Facedown
Carole, my sister, better change your name if you want a response from (DF)MLC.
What about Carl?
Poor guy (girl?). Tantrum throwing and name calling are usually signs of great fear or pain, not confidence and trust.
Square Peg–great post at 10:14. You’re right, (s)he is a mere member–they are the ones who know little but love much.
I miss those days.
Although, once you realize how only Jesus saves, and how desperately we need him, a richer walk with Him alone begins…not dependent on the emotional rush of relationships, pastor worship or band-driven corporate worship.
Rabbit trail: (I’m weary of SGMers bragging how they do worship “right,” or how “worship was really good today,” when what many of them really mean is the band sounded great and we all jumped up and down alot. True worship happens in that venue… and equally as well with the 80 year old saints down the street at the Methodist church. Worship is heart driven in any situation.)
Metro lurkers, could one of you break radio silence for just a second to answer Carole’s question, even though she is a woman and does not currently attend MLC and posts on the internet (although not anonymously)?
No one is asking for gossip, details, names, dates or lurid details, although your congregation doesn’t mind sharing those with children, teens and visitors, it seems.
The question is not about parental responsibility… the issue is that 2 MLC pastors were treated very differently when their adult children sinned. Why? That’s the million dollar question. Why did DJ get a pass and MN did not? Same circumstances, although DJ’s adult son’s sin affected many more people than MN’s adult son’s sin did.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy in this situation? Do you really think that this is okay, or are you just defending your pastors and your church? What is your reasoning?
Also–this was said: We have a serious situation that we need to make you aware of today. It would have been much more preferable to have been able to share this with you in the context of a family meeting but the circumstances have prevented that.
Really? In the months of discussion about this there was no time? It had to be done on a Sunday morning?
I just can’t get the reaction of visitors out of my mind.
Imagine a young unmarried co-habitating nonbelieving couple who happened to stumble in that morning, searching for God and grace, and had to sit through that unimaginable crap.
Talk about damage to the Body. How long does it take until they go back. Or will they?
Imagine Jesus with the woman caught in adultery. He rebuked those pharisaical leaders, and spoke privately to her, urging her to go and leave her life of sin behind her. Nothing public.
Weirdest of all, he never even hauled her father up in front of the synagogue for a public flogging.
He must not have known SGM’s superior way of doing things.
SGM has a weird way of announcing things: courtship, sin, marriages, sin. But never announce people who are so wounded that they left your congregation bleeding and determined to never darken the door of a church again.
Wake up.
I wonder if Dweeb and others have asked if the Metro Life Leadership is willing to show this blatant of difference in judgement what else are they doing similar? What else are they doing like this that isn’t near so blatant?
facedown-my problem was that you defined your paraphrase as “God said.” You can connect whatever dots you like, but the verse you mangled specifically addresses qualifications. The whole calling/gifting thing is given weight within SGM that doesn’t not reflect Scripture.
I agree that elders and overseers are used interchangeably. Pastor is not thrown into the mix, but is just a term, used once in the NT as a noun, that men like to call themselves. Since it means “shepherd”, it should be used as such. Of course, referring to a man as “my shepherd” is kinda spooky in light of psalm 23.
Paul,
Your post at 5:28 had such a tone of reconciliation and love. I admire you for writing it. Thank you. You are right, especially in your last part. All of us (well, almost all of us, but me for sure) at one point would have been saying the same thing our new poster is saying now.
Hi dweeb (I feel so strange for calling you that- would you prefer I call you Metro or something else?). Like I just said, I completely understand where you’re coming from. I know this is a hard season for you and the people you fellowship with on sundays. I’m guessing it’s been a hard time for a while. Please know that many here are praying for you and your friends and pastors. We hope that God brings much healing and does a great work in Florida.
Stunned
PS. When I started this post I thought, “I bet dweeb doesn’t know that I am closer than he/she thinks.”
Hi RT!
You said, “Carole, my sister, better change your name if you want a response from (DF)MLC.
What about Carl?
Poor guy (girl?). Tantrum throwing and name calling are usually signs of great fear or pain, not confidence and trust.”
I don’t think changing my name would get a response… (although “Carl” sounds like a good anonymous name! LOL!) DfMLC won’t even answer the guys who have responded to him. My first response to him/her was a knee jerk reaction, but after thinking about it, I realized that he/she is probably upset regarding all of the upheaval at their beloved MLC. Striking out in anger at those he/she perceives to be the “problem” (those of us who are asking valid questions and “exposing” the hypocrisy) is understandable… not sensible, but understandable.
Unfortunately, as you are well aware, most current SGMer’s tend to throw tantrums and toss around allegations instead of trying to engage in a biblical conversation to support their position.
I just feel so sorry for DfMLC. It’s sad to be in that place… head in the sand, blindly following unworthy leaders, defending your church and it’s leaders instead of defending the Word of God.
It’s just sad.
Dweeb,
If you’re planning on continuing the conversation, why not pick a blog name you’re happy with, and I’ll change the name on your past posts. “Dweeb” wasn’t kind of me. Maybe MLC member or something. I’m assuming that you understand why I had to change your original screenname.
If you want to continue to interact here, I’d ask that you keep it above the belt, and not invent lies about how I moderate.
Hi Dweeb (you ok with me calling you that?),
I just read your post from 5:59pm yesterday. In it you said, “Apparently moderating means adding to/making stuff up in people posts. Yes, it is childish. So much for the ”im simply an impartial referee” approach to this clearly two sided blog.”
I’m not too sure if Jim ever claimed to be an impartial referee. Jim, did you? Honestly, I’ve heard few people ever claim to be able to be impartial accept a few bonehead journalists. The journalists that I respect at least realize they can’t be impartial (as they are humans and being humans they all have their own filters) but at least say they try to be fair. (As far as I’m concerned “fair” is also way too subjective and could never be proven.) Just wanted to let you know that at least as far as I am concerned, no one here is deluted enough to think that Jim or anyone else on earth is impartial, nor striving to be. It’s like striving to be 10 feet tall. It just ain’t gonna happen no matter how hard you try.
You also said, “Apparently, if you agree with Jim, he doesnt change anything.” Oh man, you clearly have not been here long enough or read enough posts! It’s actually those that Jim agrees with that he sort of goes after the hardest. Let me explain, please. Jim has banned just a few people from this site ever. What is it Jim? 5? I think of those he has banned, most have been those who think that Jim would agree with them. Or rather, they may seem anti SGM. But Jim isn’t anti SGM. He is pro SGM. That is why this site is here. To be anti SGM and its people and pastors, Jim would have to want the truth hidden and surpressed. But he wants it out there so the church can operate and function in truth and light. That’s part of why this site is here. (Am I misrepresenting you, Jim?)
Anyway, Dweeb, if you’d like, stick around and I think you’ll find it’s not quite what you think it is around here.
Stunned
PS. I’m really Jim writing under my most outrageous (next to DB) persona. To write under these 7 other personas I have to get fully into character. That’s why there is a pile of clothing beside me- 8 different outfits for 8 different mes. I hate when I have to put on the pantyhose.
Jim…errrr…..ahhhh….. Stunned
Stunned-well said.
I have never claimed to be impartial. I am for SGM, but stand against some practices within sgm. Most of the handful of people who have been banned were “anti” sgm. No one is banned without multiple appeals offline. Two of our current posters were banned, and are back.
Dweeb turned editing his screenname, which made sense, although I should have picked a different name, into an accusation that I edit posts in a way that puts words in people’s mouths.
Apparently moderating means adding to/making stuff up in people posts. Yes, it is childish. So much for the ”im simply an impartial referee” approach to this clearly two sided blog. Apparently, if you agree with Jim, he doesnt change anything. If you dont, he adds things to your post as if you said it.
This is a complete lie, and dweeb knows it. He is also accusing me of inventing traffic stats, which basically means that I’m a liar. If dweeb returns, which I doubt will happen, I’ll send him documentation if the traffic issue is so important to him, and will expect an apology.
BTW-love the PS
RT said…
“Imagine Jesus with the woman caught in adultery. He rebuked those pharisaical leaders, and spoke privately to her, urging her to go and leave her life of sin behind her. Nothing public.
Weirdest of all, he never even hauled her father up in front of the synagogue for a public flogging.
He must not have known SGM’s superior way of doing things.”
Modern day “stonings.”
MLC Dweeb (I like this order in the name…it reminds me of a rather bleak movie titled “SLC Punk”):
Troll or not, you’ve been handled quite adequately by others here, so I only feel the need to address one of your statements:
“That goes for everyone on here who sits at home with their cats miles away from Metro, who thinks they have some sort of credible opinion.”
I’m shrinking in horror.
My tuxedo cat and I will march our butts out of here in shame. Sorry we offended your high criticism sensibilities.
–pk
Dweeb,
C’mon back.
Your posts make so many of our points for us, (and give us such hilarious blog fodder.)
I have had in my mind lately, a private question (now public,) of how stunted the maturity of believers is in any given SG church can be?
I mean, do you really know scripture? Can you use it accurately? In Love?
How can you trust what you are taught on any given Sunday to be true?
Can you discern the truth?
Your leaders, like the Pharisees, are Hypocrites.
I can be mad as he!!, because from my EXPERIENCE, and further OBSERVATIONS, the sheep are being led to their slaughter. And you, like Saul, hold their coats and cheer the false teachers on while they slaughter the sheep.
I pray you have a “Damascus road experience” and repent, and come to the rescue of the sheep.
-Defender
Re: MLC Member formerly Known as Dweeb
Thanks, Jim, for offering to change his handle. I wasn’t too crazy about the Dweeb name, but when someone accuses me of sitting at home with cats — well, them’s fightin’ words — and I’d like to send them a copy of my calendar. But that was the least of his transgressions. Perhaps when he’s taken out to the woodshed, put through the wringer and hung out to dry for misappropriating the name of his church and purporting to represent the powers-that-be, he’ll understand what it feels like to be on the receiving end of what this whole blog is about.
The problem is, MLMFKAD, that what goes around often comes around. Many of us have learned that the hard way long before ever interacting with SGM or this blog. I hope you’ll keep that in mind.
RT — love your worship observations! Shame on me for ever looking down on those who didn’t sing as loud, jump as high, raise their hands, clap their hands or dance around.
I only know of one worship leadership in the bible. I think his name was Lucifer.
Square Peg–been there, bought the Tshirt.
I used to say appalling things like, “Those stodgy old fuddy duddies don’t know anything about worship. They use hymnbooks. They don’t have overheads. AND NO BAND!”
Kinda like teenagers in the back of the car, thinking they know diddly about making out. You want to learn about love and sex? Better ask the 70 year old couple married fifty years, you pimply face twerps.
Same philosophy here with MLC: the Church has been there, done that with this kind of stuff.
SGM, don’t reinvent the wheel.
Consult scripture and imitate the Saviour. Grace, grace, grace.
Y’all really think that a seven year old sitting in the pews (whoops: modern chairs) needs to hear about this stuff? They can process it? Nah, it just exacerbates their own crappy behaviour.
If you knew what I’ve seen and heard from your SGM kids when you are not around.
Whoo-eee.
RT – I could be wrong on this – I am sure the scripture says ‘they will know we are His disciples by our worship and how we exercise church discipline” or something like that — oh wait “They will know we are His disciples by our love for one another” – stupid me!!
Thought some of you might enjoy this article –
http://www.christianpost.com/a.....index.html
More food for thought, from today’s FB postings. (Who would’ve thunk FB to be such a goldmine of truth nuggets?)
At the root and heart of every revival or renewal is a rediscovery of the gospel of God’s grace. The gospel gets lost from generation to generation. Richard Lovelace
I don’t know who Richard Lovelace is. But I do see the gospel getting lost from one generation to the next. One of the greatest testimonies I ever heard was from someone who said they grew up in a Christian household — and their parents had so much FUN being Christians that no other life looked at all attractive. WHAT IF we all lived that way? What if we focused on GRACE and not on works?
Square Peg,
You are on to something that is sooooooooooooo simple that it definitely does get lost. We all (well maybe not all) know that grace and works (law) cannot mix, but don’t we evaluate ourselves that way? Aren’t we just a little more sure of God’s love for us when we are performing well but maybe just wonder a little bit when we cannot even get along with our spouse–you know those times when there is a chill of silence in the air, or you just “murdered” the driver in front of you.
Yes, if we understood grace our lives would radiate the love of God and overwhelm the world around us, especially those in our own households. Grace flows from the love of God, because He is love, not merely a container of it. Love is others focused, not self-centered. If we all lived that way, we would turn the world upside down. Haven’t I heard those words somewhere? Maybe we could start with just those in our proximity–that includes the roadways too–sorry about that!
Square Peg – thanks for the Lovelace quote.
“At the root and heart of every revival or renewal is a rediscovery of the gospel of God’s grace. The gospel gets lost from generation to generation.“ Richard Lovelace
Was looking for something for Face Book today.
Lovelace, one of the best poets EVER :
My favorite poem, To Lucasta:
TELL me not, Sweet, I am unkind,
That from the nunnery
Of thy chaste breast and quiet mind
To war and arms I fly.
True, a new mistress now I chase,
5
The first foe in the field;
And with a stronger faith embrace
A sword, a horse, a shield.
Yet this inconstancy is such
As thou too shalt adore;
10
I could not love thee, Dear, so much,
Loved I not Honour more.
OHHHH — THAT Lovelace! I thought maybe there was a new celebrity pastor whose books hadn’t yet made it to the SGM bookstore…!
GD — take that ball and run with it! Grace, grace, to all — not just to those who love Jesus Christ, but FROM those who love Jesus Christ — to show his dying love to those who’ve not yet seen it!
While you are writing poetry here…. I remembered the few words that led me out of PDI further into a real relationship and knowledge of God–from Tersteegen. These words(which are just part of that poem) were used by the Lord to break up my dependence on man, things and this world.
Am I not enough, Mine own?
Enough, Mine own, for Thee?
I, forever and alone,
I, needing Thee?
My new screen name, Vida Savta, means ”dearly loved grandmother.” My first grandson was born Monday. His mommy and daddy worship at a messianic Jewish congregation, so I got to choose a Hebrew name — Vida – for myself for baby’s bris ceremony next week. Savta means grandmother.
I like the phrase “dearly loved” in Colossians 3:12 since verses 12-17 were read at our wedding. It also made me think of some other Bible verses to guide our interactions with those who might disagree with us either in person or on-line. I want to be Jesus-honoring in all I say and write, so these are challenging to me. If we who post at Refuge want to offer healing and inspire change, I think gracious speech has a lot to do with it. I wouldn’t want any guest here to sit on a couch made of cactus.
Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Colossians 3:12-15
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. Proverbs 15:1
The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction. A wise man’s heart guides his mouth, and his lips promote instruction. Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones. Proverbs 16:21, 23-24
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. Colossians 4:6
Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:8-9
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. Galatians 5:13-15
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. Romans 15:5-7
Also:
Ephesians 4:29-32
1 Corinthians 13:4-6
I also wanted to share a link to a great on-line video by a pastor named John Lynch. It is called “When You Get Tired Enough.” I have it posted on my blog under the title Grace because that’s what it is all about. I think you’ll really like it!
~~ Vida Savta (aka MetroStill)
Oh congratulations, Vida!!! NOTHING like a new baby to cuddle and love!! Breathe deeply of that fresh-from-God baby scent – you are so blessed!!!
Vida Savta – Mazel Tov!
and thank you for the fresh life-giving Word-verses. God’s word just brings joy to my heart and I took every one as real encouragement.
Congrats and Blessings to you and your family, Vida!!
Thankyou for the exhortation to remember we are….dearly loved..by our Father…….
Congrats, Vida! How wonderful!!!!!!!!!!! Hope you enjoy every day with him.
Mazel Tov, I’m still waiting for some of my own.
Maybe you should have a few more kids to up your odds.
(Totally joking. Don’t start throwing things at me. ;-) )
From way up the line…
He also taught the church cannot be built on sentiment. Sentiment is about emotion and feeling.
This cracks me up — and explains a lot of things I saw and heard before I saw the light. What a paradox. Sooo, it’s okay – - well, not just OK, but a requirement — to express emotion and feeling from the pulpit and during worship — but when it comes to building the church, nope, nada, no way.
“The real test of worship comes the moment all eyes are off of you” – from a FB link to somebody I never heard of named Stephen Furtick.
Square Peg – spot on! It’s ALSO ok to gush with emotion, devotion and servitude to leaders and promise them ANYTHING they want – in a deep feeling of gratitude for their leadership and sacrifice!
Also, I have seen emotion become the standard for how “good” the worship is. Sometimes, the Spirit groans too deeply to be heard, and God often speaks in a still small voice…
The sentiment remark shows how far they’ve gotten from Jesus. If Jesus lacked sentiment (compassion, emotion, etc.) he wouldn’t have bothered even coming to earth, let alone healing lepers and blind people, postponing his teaching when a man came through the roof where Jesus sat just to be healed. He wouldn’t have wept when he saw Mary and Martha’s grief at Lazarus’ death. He certainly wouldn’t have sweat blood in the garden as he prayed before his crucifixion.
Let’s face it – these men are building a corporation not unlike IBM or Microsoft – only their CEO is CJ and their management model is to rule from above. They dole out doctrine from the 30th floor. They probably even get to have their own executive bathroom complete with bidets. All the minions get to serve the organization and they don’t get paid – they pay the management! These people have no say in how the corporation is run and the only retirement pension they get is to be shown the door when they are no longer of any use to the team leaders. Disagree and you are outta’ there! My question is: if enough people leave the corporation, who will pay the management? How will they continue to exist? In Mr. Canary’s world, no funding means no business equals bankruptcy.
It is time for the church to get back to its first love – Jesus Christ. Not the cross, not doctrine, not indwelling sin, but Jesus, the Son of God, our Headship and our Elder Brother. It’s time for leaders to become like servants,not celebrities. A man or woman worth following will imitate Jesus, not the bald guy at the top.
(I’m feeling very passionate today for Jesus and his church. Things are coming on the earth and the church is in no way prepared to handle the influx of new believers that the Lord is calling to Himself. We are pitifully unprepared and too self absorbed. God help us. Have mercy.)
“It is time for the church to get back to its first love – Jesus Christ. Not the cross, not doctrine, not indwelling sin, but Jesus, the Son of God, our Headship and our Elder Brother. It’s time for leaders to become like servants,not celebrities.”
AMEN!!! AMEN!!! Preach it! Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning & the End, our Hope of Glory.
Canary said, “Let’s face it – these men are building a corporation not unlike IBM or Microsoft – only their CEO is CJ and their management model is to rule from above. They dole out doctrine from the 30th floor. They probably even get to have their own executive bathroom complete with bidets. All the minions get to serve the organization and they don’t get paid – they pay the management! These people have no say in how the corporation is run and the only retirement pension they get is to be shown the door when they are no longer of any use to the team leaders. Disagree and you are outta’ there! My question is: if enough people leave the corporation, who will pay the management? How will they continue to exist? In Mr. Canary’s world, no funding means no business equals bankruptcy.” Canary, this is absolutely right on. SGM is a business with its own country club (the elite/ pastors), retirement plan, and benefits. The congregation are more like slaves who are doing the actual work – bringing in the money and taking care of the pastors.
From Canary again, “It is time for the church to get back to its first love – Jesus Christ. Not the cross, not doctrine, not indwelling sin, but Jesus, the Son of God, our Headship and our Elder Brother. It’s time for leaders to become like servants,not celebrities. A man or woman worth following will imitate Jesus, not the bald guy at the top. “ Amen sister! Sing it from the rooftop!
I was on a mega-church staff for years. For the most part, a great church. It had grown from a small group of your basic hippie types with brains and passion.
Got a new “executive” pastor in. (You know, executive, like it is described in First Hippolonians 4). He brought in this corporate model of church (you know, like it says in…)
Before long, we were doing staff retreats at some swanky little BnB and renting community centers for the day with catering to do staff business.
I could never have afforded the gorgeous bedroom that I stayed in one night, I remember. And darn near puked when I realized that not many of the people who put money in the plate could have afforded to stay there, either.
I looked around at the crowd, many of whom were some of the finest servants I’ve ever met, and thought, “How did we get here?” We’re doing dumb little corporate games and have break out sessions where we discuss dumb corporate stuff and make dumb corporate flowcharts when we should have been sitting in our paid-for community center/lunchroom/VBS gathering spot/preschool praying for each other and our community.
He eventually was urged to move along, and he went on to damage another ministry…but not before the original organic evangelistic community-serving nature of this 4000 member church had changed forever.
Don’t these type of guys ever realize that a family often places a gift in the plate that is a sacrifice of immense value? So when a church staff rents a $200/night room for a retreat, what does that say about their opinion of that family’s gift? Those widow’s mites are powerful and sacred. It is deadly dangerous to waste the gifts that come into the storehouse.
Staffing a church is necessary in today’s world, if the church grows to any size. Volunteers can’t (and won’t–believe me, they WON”T) do it all. But these top-heavy busywork megaliths that we are creating are an abomination.
Are any of y’all getting weary?
RT-I’m weary
Comment traffic is way down this week after being outed by dweeb, so I can no longer have a conversation with myself, using 30 aliases. Gosh I miss dweeb….
Your sacrifice vs staff treatment of funds statement is so true, and so sad.
I know a SGM pastor who is so conservative with church funds that he should be held up as a model-”do it this way.”
I know others who treat the wonderful church AMEX like an expense account.
If I was a member of Metro, I’d be asking to see the credit card statements, or demand a fully itemized report, without the vague ‘hospitality” categories.
Of course, that could lead the the famous, “don’t you trust us?” conversation.
Don’t you trust us?
Nah. In GOD we trust. Everybody else pays cash.
Square Peg, right on! Or as Reagan said, “trust but verify!”
Canary said:
“Things are coming on the earth and the church is in no way prepared to handle the influx of new believers that the Lord is calling to Himself. We are pitifully unprepared and too self absorbed. God help us. Have mercy.)”
I couldn’t agree more, too many shiny things to distract us. We (the church) seem to suffer from short term memory loss, a collective case of A.D.D. and short term memory loss.
Chuck
Jim,
You had said, “If I was a member of Metro, I’d be asking to see the credit card statements, or demand a fully itemized report, without the vague ‘hospitality” categories.Of course, that could lead the the famous, “don’t you trust us?” conversation.”
The church recently had an audit done on their own accord and the results can be made available to any member who requests a copy. I did not receive the “you don’t trust us” response when I requested one. I was not concerned about the expenses after reviewing them. They also have a group of men (not part of the leadership team) that give input on financial decisions within the church.
Meetings, whether for the seniors in the church or LT meetings, had been catered in the past. In an effort to cut cost and spend more wisely most of the meetings now are prepared by volunteers who are participating in the meetings. There are other examples of things the church is doing to spend money more wisely if you would like. No, I have not been “drinking the kool-aid” but believe the church is not guilty in this area. I would encourage everyone here to look into the situation before portraying others in a negative light. Yes, I know no accusations were made by you Jim, but it gave the unfounded implication that metro was not being faithful in their finances. I’m not calling anyone a liar here, just wanted to let ya’ll know this information is available.
I think comment traffic is way down because so many of us really DO want to hear from MLC people (dweebs or otherwise) about what they really do think of the hypocrisy on parade by their trusted leaders. And the silence is deafening.
Canary’s exhortation is priceless. totally.
Another,
Thanks for your response. This is not a question that I’m expecting an answer to online, but mainly something for you to think about. Hopefully, you have an answer, based on the report you received.
If your pastors have a meeting in a restaurant, who picks up the tab? How much does MLC spend per month at local restaurants? Again, I don’t want an answer, although I’d be interested in knowing if this was clearly outlined in the report you received.
I am accusing NO SGC of financial impropriety. I do think that many members would be “a little miffed” if they saw the credit card statements in some SGCs.
I have no idea how MLC handles their finances, and I apologize for any implications you found in my comment.
For the record, I think that Chip is an honorable man.
I would agree with Another Dweeb that the folks at Metro Life are trying to be more faithful stewards of finances. Please be so careful how you characterize others. Even words that aren’t outright accusations can cast unfounded suspicion. Hard facts and honest questions are one thing, but negative conjectures are quite another and don’t edify anyone.
As for sentiment and emotion, I was at the prayer meeting on Wednesday night. There were two very touching moments. The young man whose behavior seriously affected our church a few years ago came to the mic to pray for a hedge of protection against deception and temptation for people in our church. It was the most tender, heartfelt, passionate prayer I have ever heard. Not for show. Just quiet reverence to God and intercessory care for his fellow believers. The tears streamed down my face as he prayed. God restores and heals. Brokenness brings a blessing. The other sweet moment was when another brother came to the mic and sang an anointed prayer to God as the Holy Spirit gave him the words and melody. He is not a professional singer or one of the regular musicians, but his song blessed me tremendously. True worship from the heart. He wasn’t singing to us — we just got to eavesdrop as he sang for an audience of One. These are the people I love at Metro Life. These are the people I will continue to love wherever we end up.
Another,
Thank you for your response. Everyone would have a different opinion of “excess”. I was a part of a small sgc where the sr p and the intern were dropping $200 a month each on meals. The practice would of course pass an audit, as we are talking about a corporation. Expense accounts are the norm, and thankfully, we aren’t talking about private jets here.
If this is the practice at MLC, I wonder what the membership would consider excessive.
______ said “Why do members need to “request” a copy? Why not just give a copy to all members? Is this a church or a business?”
Excellent question, brother. I hope the church asks for such openness.
Vida Savta – I’m glad to hear that “the folks at Metro Life are trying to be more faithful stewards of finances”. That’s encouraging. It’s sad that they haven’t been more faithful in the past, but encouraging they they have seen a need and responded to it. Hopefully they will kick it up a notch and just hand it out to everyone, rather than asking them to come request it.
Square Peg said, “Don’t you trust us?
Nah. In GOD we trust. Everybody else pays cash.”
AWESOME! I agree. Trust only in God. Why would ANY MAN (or woman) ask us to give them our full trust, especially when they’re always telling us how they’re the worst sinners?
Another, welcome to the refuge! I do appreciate your input, however, I am very concerned about this statement you made, “I think giving a copy to every member would be a poor use of finances. All that money wasted on paper when a majority would be left on the seats and thrown away. Many probably aren’t interested. ” Whoa! To make a statement that a majority are not interested seems to be presuming an awful lot! I guess I would have to ask you, how do you know how many are or are not interested? Maybe some are not interested but there may very likely be more interested than you or I would know. Give those in your church the benefit of the doubt. SGM churches (like all churches) are full of intelligent folks who have the right to be given this information without having to ask for it. They are the ones giving their tithes and offerings which are supporting the pastors, the building and any ministries going on not to speak of the 10% + that is given to SGM every month. Our new church not only sends all members an itemized accounting of the church finances, they send it out quarterly! This is as it should be! No one has to ask for a copy. It is sent out automatically.
Another,
Thanks for sharing here. I truly appreciate things coming into the light. And ps. I LOVE your name. You gave me a great big smile when I read it.
I am glad to hear that your church did away with the catered meals. A little disgusted that they ever did it in the first place, but glad they have done away with it. I grew up in the church and couldn’t in a million years imagine any group of people getting together to serve and expecting anyone else to serve them. These men and women knew that if they were going to get hungry, then they should bring along a paper brown bag lunch. They would NEVER have expected the church to pay to feed them. They were quite aware of the widow’s mite.
If it’s any comfort, I don’t think that SGM is the only denominations that make this mistake. My current church is having an “end of the year’ barbecue for homegroup leaders. Homegroup leaders bring sides, but the church provides the meat. I’m boycotting this. (I know, imagine a church that would have ME as a homegroup leader?! But that aside…) I would appreciate prayers because I want to go talk with my pastor about it and tell him it concerns me that people are sacrificing big time when they give and it sure as heck shouldn’t go to serving the ones who are already “special” in the church. (Yeah, I dont’ think I’m special, but let’s not pretend that stuff like this doesn’t make people who aren’t home group leaders feel left out. Enough of the us and them stuff. We’re all one body. I don’t put lotion on one leg and leave the other one dry.) Anyway, I would appreciate prayer. The last time I talked to a minister about something I was concerned about, I got kicked out of the church. (God bless my ole SGM church.)
Stunned
Defended
June 25th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
I think comment traffic is way down because so many of us really DO want to hear from MLC people (dweebs or otherwise) about what they really do think of the hypocrisy on parade by their trusted leaders. And the silence is deafening.
___________________________________________________________
Hang in there Defended. July 7th family meeting should see an explosion here on July 8th. The fence sitters among us are getting very weary of the lack of openness still and are about to tear down the fence or finally jump off it .
Jim: I know your intentions weren’t negative, it just might come across that way to some. If they have a pastor’s lunch once a month and use the church card, I am perfectly fine. It gets to a point when it is being used in excess then it becomes a problem and the report did not show that.
.
I honestly believe that input is being heeded. I think giving a copy to every member would be a poor use of finances. All that money wasted on paper when a majority would be left on the seats and thrown away. Many probably aren’t interested. I do understand where you are coming from though. But they really aren’t trying to hide anything.
Defended: This is a blog for those hurt by SGM. That is why the majority of those from MLC are not responding. They are thankful for their church and leaders. Yes, there are those like myself and others who are foolish enough to put out differing opinions on here. I personally will not address the topic you are referring to. Not because I don’t know, but because I have gone to the leadership expressing my concerns and as a result understand the situation better. I don’t have a top secret email to send to Jim showing all the details. If you are a member of MLC go to our leadership team and ask. Simple. I and hundreds of others have had totally different experiences than those listed here. I truly do feel sorry for those who have had stories like those some have listed. For those reading, go to the source of the situation and problem and trust God to give you discernment. It is much quicker than sorting hundreds of comments. We have been called saints and brainwashed zombies in the same breath. But for those on the blog, have faith that your brothers and sisters in Christ over here are actively seeking God and not believing anything without voicing concerns and testing it to scripture.
I hope not to come across argumentative or condescending towards anyone and know that I probably won’t change anyone’s mind here. Same for me though. I have sought God during this and my mind and MLC is where I’m staying. Yes, the leaders are sinful men like the rest. If I was to leave a church in search of one without problems I would change churches and denominations every year. I would love to post this and leave it at that. But I know I would be accused of being a drive by hater
For those not a part of MLC or SGM, why the intense desire to tear these men down when you are not a part of these local churches? Do you not trust their members to discern the Truth on their own? That is meant to come across as a respectful question for a conversation not an angry argument.
Remember the case in Chesapeake? KB spent $20,000 on the 25th anniversary party and only $1000 on benevolance. Poor Esther and her children didn’t have $$ for groceries and gas but many SGM “leaders” including Shank, Bendenelli and others were flown in and wined and dine – all at the sheeplings expense and all done to impress! Do you think that there was a line item defined as 25th anniversary party: $20,000? No way. It was buried! Guess what? They had a financial “team” from within the church who were not pastors but were supposedly overseeing things too! Another guess what – the church was in the red that year! All the time, the poor little sheeplings kept giving and giving, “trusting” that their leaders were submitted to God and using their hard earned $$ as good and wise stewards would do! Totally duped!
Another–thank you for your gracious and reasonable tone.
A thought: most churches hold large email databases–why not just email members pertinent information? I suspect many people might become interested in the finances of the church if they had access to the numbers. Not to be busybodies, but just to get a sense of where their gifts and offerings are going.
Honestly, (this is NOT just SGM), I can’t imagine why church members would be expected to pay for pastors to go out and eat together. Are they unable to feed themselves on their salary? How do they eat on other days? If they do not have enough money to pay for their own lunches or cappaccinos or mocahalattos or whatever, perhaps a raise is in order.
Many church members do not have the money to go out for lunch…yet give to the work of the church. I suspect most don’t know that their money often ends up, LITERALLY, flushed down a toilet.
You’d be surprised how much more willing pastors are to eat bag lunches or hit up the $5 combo at Taco Bell if they pay themselves. Meeting in a restaurant doesn’t produce more–in fact, it can detract: it’s hard to decide mid-meeting that on-your-face prayer is called for if you are in the middle of the Jason’s Deli Salad Bar or whatever.
You don’t need the church members to pay up simply because pastors go out en masse. You think members would be excited to pay for a lunch if all the secretaries decided to go out and discuss the best way to print bulletins or network the database? Nope. Why the pastors? They are simply one part of the body.
Also, sending out the financials might allow SGMers to more clearly understand the unusual way that SGM uses “missions” giving. Since the vast majority of SG churches don’t support foreign missions, campus work, prison ministry, etc., like other churches do, much of that money goes to pay off the mortgage of the local church. Since SGM mainly receives members from other churches, and those members often do not understand the SG definition of missions as planting more suburban congregations in the United States. Please correct me if this has recently changed.
I have heard rumbles of work overseas. This is an exciting development!
Hi Another,
You said, “For those not a part of MLC or SGM, why the intense desire to tear these men down when you are not a part of these local churches?”
I’m no longer a part of SGM, though I have many loved ones that are. But I want you to know that I have no desire to tear these men down. I have an intense desire for TRUTH and LIGHT to be spread in SGM. I have learned MUCH about SGM after I left. Almost all from those who used to be in leadership at SGM. So much of the light that they shed has brought much healing for the confusion and many, many of the things I accepted because I chose to believe the leadership in my SGM church. I am so grateful for those who have brought the truth and shared their stories here so I know I was not alone and not somehow crazy for seeing what I saw and beleiving what I believed.
I hope that for you you are encouraged in your SGM to trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you. I had quite the opposite in my SGM experience. I was taught to doubt all leadings of the Lord, being reminded often that the heart is deceptive above all things. That it is my leaders who can be trusted (not the leading of the HOly Spirit in my life.) So, no, I don’t expect all my other friends at SGM are encouraged to trust the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives. At least not my friends at my old SGM church, so for that alone, I am glad to be here.
But please, as much as you didn’t appreciate what you thought could be Jim’s misleading suggestion of mismanagement at your church, I don’t appreciate your question, which suggests that I am here to tear men down.
Stunned
Fred,
Thank you for calling me out on that. It was very poor wording on my part. I’m not used to blogging and am realizing things have to be said very carefully. When many things are handed out, including bullitins that have quarterly financial information on, many are left lying around and are trashed. This doesn’t mean members didn’t read them, just that they don’t have to have their own copy to file away. When typing a fast, typing not interested came easier.
Again, I don’t intend to speak for anyone at MLC but myself. Sorry for the broad generalization.
Another, I just read your post to Fred. Just here to give you a hug and tell you that I for one am always saying stuff where later on I end up going, “Doh! Didn’t mean to say it that way!” So you’re not alone.
Hugs again,
Stunned
RT said, “Honestly, (this is NOT just SGM), I can’t imagine why church members would be expected to pay for pastors to go out and eat together.”
AMEN!!!!!!!!! Why in the freaking world would a ministry think it’s OK for a widow’s mite to go to a capaccino?!?!?!? Crazy. Or rather, stupidity. I can’t afford a capaccino. Why should my sacrifice go to someone else to do so? It’s unnecessary. Pay for your own freaking coffee. Spend my church money to feed the homeless and clothe the widows. Next time I go to corporation, I mean church, I’ll talk to my pastor about it.
Another–I’m glad you’re here. Welcome!
So SGM/MLC/Other pastors who are reading.
One of your own is cool with one meal a month on the church card. Is that pretty close? Once a month?
“Your” people have no idea…..
An issue of trust —-
I don’t have a clue of how leaders speak of trust in SGM these days. Back in the day, (PDI) leaders would say “I don’t even trust myself” (hence the need for accountability for the sin nature). Also said quite often “even on our best day, we are shocked full of sin”. Maybe it has been replaced by “I am the chief sinner among sinners”.
It is amazing that people that make those kinds of statements and then ask the congregation to trust. I quote Vizzini “Inconceivable” Trust is always in the Lord and Him alone!! We can trust one another to be who we are but not cart a blanc trust me.
For whatever it’s worth department – Not building the church on sentiment didn’t mean the absence of emotion or tears (we saw enough of those humble expressions from the pulpit) but it referred to not keeping people in positions of responsibility if there was some else better equipped to to their job. Hence CJ says”If there is someone better suited or equipped to his job he would willingly step down” (my paraphrase).
Thought: say the average family gives $400 a month to their church.
A pastor and an intern spend $400 a month on “ministry lunches.”
The family could save processing costs and bank charges if they just approached the nearest toilet, shoved the cash in and flushed.
That’s where those “ministry lunches” end up, after all.
I’m just saying.
Irv,
Mr. Canary and I did get the “I’m sorry you don’t trust me” comment as our pastor was literally showing us the door. Then he encouraged us not to “pull away” . At that point it was too late. We couldn’t trust him anymore after seeing his lack of sentiment (emotion, feelings, loyalty, etc.). These things were noticeably absent. In their place were impatience and anger. So, the “lack of sentiment” comment might have been directed at building the church but its ultimate effect was and is harmful to the saints. We weren’t even troublemakers. We had simple and quite easy questions to ask, blindly trusting our pastor to be open to them. How wrong we were. We didn’t see Jesus that night in these men. We saw a board of directors hoping to sweep another “problem” under the rug. It was a devastating awakening to the truth.
Believe me, the lack of “sentiment” trickles down to the sheep in the end.
I ususally don’t get uptight over the church-funded meal thing because I haven’t seen it abused in my former SGM church, honestly.
As far as lunches for pastors and staff, I think a church-funded brown bag lunch with a PB&J sandwich, Cheetos and generic soda should more than suffice (I, for one, would be grateful…no exaggeration). Head off any complaints with a love note inside the lunch sack that says, “Isn’t it good to know that you are still doing better than you deserve?”
That should cure any complaints and double-honor hair-splitting debates.
I love my pastors, but the apostle Paul paid his way through umpteen scenarios, repaired tents to pay for his quarter-pounders, never super-sized it, and the same attitude of pastors should be that lunches and goodies provided by sheep are gravy and should never, ever, be expected.
–pk
Thanks Another!
Canary – I am totally on board with comments. I just wanted to clarify that displaying emotions was not prohibited. As a matter of fact emotions were used to exploit (in my humble opinion) to the end goal. I do appreciate your comments and walk with you in agreement. The issue of trust is appalling the way it is used to manipulate. I have business partners that I trust with my life because they are honest and are who they say they are. With the SGM leaders (for the most part) we don’t know who they really are. Thanks for the clarity!!! Irv
Canary’s comment, “They dole out doctrine from the 30th floor,” reminded me of the lines from “Sin City,” an old Flying Burrito Brothers song:
“On the thirty-first floor/A gold-plated door
Won’t keep out/The Lord’s burning rain.”
I get you, Irv. I appreciate your response. It’s good that you have business partners you can trust.
These comments about church use of funds remind me of a story I have shared before. Once our pastor (who was PDI, but at the time of this story was not) asked my husband for prayer. He was going on yet another spiritual retreat to a conference somewhere or other to get refreshed and revived, all expenses paid by the church, of course. So, he asked, “Pray for me, I’m going to (such and such) conference.” My husband graciously replied, “Pray for me, I’m going to work.”
On the trust issue, we were “counseled” to leave our church (kicked out) because they didn’t feel we trusted the leadership. I guess ”trusting the leadership” meant serving where they wanted us to serve, even if we didn’t feel peace about it from the Lord because that’s where the conflict began with our pastor. It does seem to be a bit of a paradox in SGM. On the one hand, they cannot trust themselves, they are the worst sinners they know, etc. while at the same time there is often extreme confidence in decisions they make regarding church affairs. So much so, that if you question, some of us get the “trust your leaders” response. I find that weird.
As I have mulled this over, especially in the last few years since the blogs have been in existence, I have come up with a theory. Perhaps they really do believe the whole “worst sinner I know” stuff about themselves. So much focus is kept on our sin natures within SGM; I don’t see how they can exempt themselves from that same focus. But perhaps they also believe that the anointing of the office they hold (pastor, apostle) trumps their sin nature? Yes, they are sinners, but when they are functioning in their role as pastor/apostle/whatever, preaching or seeking out “right doctrine” or making decisions for the church, the anointing of God sort of overrides their propensity to sin? So when they say, “trust the leadership”, maybe they mean “trust the anointing of God that I hold because of my office”. Thus they can make decisions with extreme confidence and basically demand they be respected while at the same time bemoaning their “sin” of not having their quiet time or being lazy or what have you.
I saw a magnet the other day which read, “My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.” It made me think of the “I’m the worst sinner” line of thinking. Instead of “one upping” it’s “one downing.” Not real humility of course.