Your apostle/sr pastor’s adult son is on staff, gets in trouble, and dad gets a pass. CJ comes to town to defend him.
You have another pastor whose adult son gets in trouble and dad has to step down?
Is the hypocrisy not crystal clear?
I understand that you’re under a gag order-”no facebook, twitter, or blogging”, but I want to give you the opportunity to share your thoughts here. No details please, as everyone already knows the issues at hand and discretion will serve everyone involved. Many of you already know that sharing your thoughts with MLC staff will probably result in a “MLC might not be the church for you” conversation, which in many parts of SGM land has replaced table turning.
My question is, are you seriously OK with the double standard?
2 Corinthians 4:2
2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
Just to clarify, can you confirm that both sons had the same “trouble” ?
No chance that the circumstances are different?
Signed,
ignorant but curious ;o)
Same category of “trouble”. Different circumstances. I would think that 99 out of 100 would consider the circumstances in the apostle’s son’s case to be far more egregious.
I would agree with Jim’s severity assessment to a point, however, if the apostle’s son is a 10 on the severity scale, the other pastor’s son’s trouble would be a 7 or an 8. Still very serious.
CD- as you know my problem is with the apostle’s free pass.
In this current case, the son was still living with his parents and other people had been warning of trouble for quite a while. I don’t think the “step down” is permanent either.
Jim, CJ is preaching this next Sunday. He did a sermon several weeks ago but didn’t finish, so he is coming back for a second round. He did the first two verses of Jude last time. I wonder what’s next.
A few thoughts: the Apostles son broke covenant, the pastor’s son sinned, a distinction of no difference to some, but breaking covenant with The Lord is huge. Outraged over the public announcement on a Sunday morning with possible visitors. Isn’t this a “family matter” for a family meeting or HG’s??? Why the public humiliation and done in a fashion so no reaction can take place. Why is this public announcement ok, but blogging, twitter and facebook are off limits. Watch out MLC they may tell you to stop phone calls as well, information control is paramount. Why is the pastor stripped of pastoral duties but apostle was not???
BTW, unless something has changed, CJ may be coming back to finish a message, but it is my understanding that he is speaking at the Southern Baptist convention. God help them especially if he tries to convince them of his polity!!!! So speaking at MLC is because he will already be here, and of course damage control, let the spin class begin!!!
Might I ask which Pastor was asked to “step down”?
Because i do not know the parties involved i cant comment on if favoritism played a role. But i would like to know since when is it okay to use the pulpit in that manner. This is getting out of control!!!!!!! I would like to know more about that part of it.
Secondly if SGM is so in bed with the southern baptist why isnt there a merger?
What do you mean by he broke covenant?
Canary and PDI. I know Jim is trying to keep certain things off the blog. If you ask him off blog I am sure he will fill in the blanks.
I admit I’m curious how a blog post goes on with news but not news. Yet, details aside, I would LOVE to hear more about the take on apparent hypocrisy from locals of MLC! Can anyone see it while drinking the kool-aid? Or is there a detox period before it becomes evident?
I’d also love to know the difference between “breaking covenant” with the Lord and regular or agregious sinning if anyone can help me with that.
Trying to respect Jim’s desire to be careful on the news of this particular event. A covenant is made when a promise is made before God regarding something He has instituted. Breaking that covenant is breaking your part of the promise of the covenant. if no covenant has been made than you have sinned against the Lord and the other person, but where not in a covenant relationship. Sorry for the vagueness, but trying to repect Jim, hope I have succeeded.
Just curious – why are we talking about ML then? Why all the secrecy? Whatever happened was in a public meeting. Why can’t it be talked about on a blog that is exposing the sort of hypocrisy that has supposedly taken place? No disrespect to Jim – I just don’t understand. We aren’t giving in to the old gossip and slander line, are we? Actions can be explained without using names. No more secrets! Please, no offense intended, just a bit frustrated at all the vagueness. It is waaaay to familiar.
Another church nightmare, family nightmare, personal nightmare in the SGM tradition. Nero fiddles with the Southern Baptists as Rome burns. When Rome is a smouldering ruin, will Nero become king of the SBC? I think hell just froze over. (You know, SBC doesn’t have a king. And they’re a REAL family of churches — not much hierarchy at all, which is sometimes problematic.)
I have no idea what went on with ApostleSon and PastorSon, so trying to figure out the issue here is like deciphering code. But I have no need to know. If they are matters of public record, that puts things in the public knowledge category. Regardless, I have long railed against the policy of removing decent, caring, hard-working men from ministry because their children acted up. Satan and his angels rebelled against the Perfect Parent. How can we hold mere men to an impossible standard?
Azaziah — about the meeting time:
When our former SGM church had it’s first nightmarish family meeting many years ago, they held it immediately after the Sunday “Meeting” — explaining to guests that unforeseen circumstances had arisen, and that they were invited for punch and cookies in the lobby, but when the meeting reconvened, it was members only, please come back next week and let us know how we can serve you better. Doors were closed and monitored. It was really, really tough to sit there and listen to an absolute horror story after most people had been in the building for at least 3 hours, and had just finished a 2-hours of worship aerobics followed by the requisite marathon sermon (hmmm, it was on Matthew 18) with no clue of impending disaster. Everyone was tired and hungry. Even if it had been great news, it wasn’t a good time to have a meeting. But there was NOTHING good here — it involved weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth — a disaster of biblical proportions, and that’s not a pun. I will never forget the gut-wrenching sobs, and the sad spectacle of couples leaning on each other, holding each other up as they walked out of the building. We were all undone.
Apparently, I was not the only one who thought the Sunday morning time was a huge mistake.
When the next 2 situations that caused weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth occurred, the church was a little more experienced, and wisely held it on a Sunday evening. People were steeled for a blow when they walked in the door – because after that first disaster, the very words “Family Meeting” caused fear and trembling far and wide. And still do.
So Azaziah, if you have any influence at all, you might want to encourage them to hold the meeting at a completely different time than in conjunction with Sunday morning activities. Or at least have it catered.
God bless them as they try to sort out whatever it is. I wouldn’t wish a “Family Meeting” on my worst enemy.
Another question.
Who’s gonna remove CJ when one of his offspring screws up?
Oh, gosh. I’m in moderation. Is that anything like an observation?
Things to ask your MLC pastors…again
1. Why wait 6 months to deal with immorality among leadership families in MLC…..again? Maybe because it fell at the same time frame Todd resigned? They could not hide Todd resigning so they hid this instead? Is this more secrecy under the guise of protecting the flock? SECRECY, LACK OF HONESTLY, LACK OF TRANPARENCY. AGGROGANCE!
2. Why do it on a Sunday morning the public assembly after welcoming new members? Can we say insensitive and inappropriate timing? {Did we handle the apostles’ adult son that way? NOPE! There was an emergency family meeting on a home group night within days.} Then after that, they ask the flock not to Tweet, Facebook or blog? I think they forgot to ask the folks at MLC not to pick up the phone. Those were ringing off the hook by 1 o’clock on Sunday. They want the flock to practice sensitivity and they blow all this during a public Sunday meeting with peoples kids in the pews and visitors and non members? POOR ATTEMPT ATCONTROL.
3. Did the pastor who is now being blamed for the poor parenting of his adult 23 year old son know this brick was even being dropped that Sunday morning during the service in front of children, visitors? I hear he looked like a deer in headlights shocked. They probably did to him what they did to Todd. Todd had prepared message that was supposed to be read by Danny after he resigned. What was announced was far from what was agreed on. Again, this is a repentant apostle? NO CHANGE. The games continue.
4. When does this cycle ever end!!!!!!!!! If your kids live home until they are 30, are you are still responsible? Last time I checked the only person this young man is accountable to is God, not his parents at this age. This is not a result of anyone’s poor parenting. This is a result of choices made by this young man. He who is without sin throw the first stone.
5. Is SGM/MLC using coercion <again> to get another pastor to admit a sin he does not have to “degift “ him?’ THIS IS NOT A LAZY PASTOR! This is patternistic in SGM churches to remove the guy who points out the sin of others on the pastoral team, especially when there is an evaluation team involved. Because we are all full of sin, it’s not rocket science that when the remaining pastors TELL you they see poor parenting skills in your life it MUST be true. There must be a sacrificial lamb, a scapegoat to show the flock that the remaining team is cleaning house and dealing with sin, especially when the leadership team who confessed sin was accused of being 3 alcoholics watching each other at the spring family meeting. MANIPULATION, LYING, FLAT OUT EVIL!
6. Speaking of leadership confession, they all knew this in January and hid it from the church until June. Where was that piece of information in anyone’s confession? Where was that information from the evaluation team? Who decided to hide that piece of information? Ask your remaining pastors. There are only 2 left. I think the bible calls that lying, or the classic sin of omission. It’s all sin, right? Where is the season of openness and transparency?
7. How can they accuse this pastor of anything his adult son did or having any part in shaping his actions when it is obvious that the remaining team members are practicing sin? Is this pastoral care for a wounded flock?
NO IT IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Square Peg— I know what you mean about Family meeting. Anytime it was mentioned the pastoral staff always had to clarify if it was a good meeting or a bad meeting because everyone associated the word family meeting with something bad–sad isn’t it.
Canary, I think Jim is trying to protect certain individuals from further humiliation. He is a good man in a difficult situation!!! He is not rrying to be secretive or he wouldn’t have started this particular blog topic.
I am stunned. This is just outrageous. How can this body continue under such conditions? The pastor who is stepping down – and I don’t know, but it seemed semi-voluntary – is probably the hardest-working, most humble and teachable pastor on staff. All that I have seen in the others over the past three years is hiding, manipulating, twisting scripture for justification of blatant errant behavior and blame-shifting. It is like a bunch of children are running the church. I remember talking with one of the pastors not too long ago during a crisis issue and he explained to me the role of the pastors and their responsibilities. He listed six or seven duties of a pastor and caring for the flock was number six on the list. The pastor who is feeling the heat right now because of something his adult son chose to do, was the only guy on staff at MLC (since Todd left) who heeded the biblical command to “consider others as more important than yourself.” His only crime as I see it, was serving heroically and making every effort to care for those in the body who were hurting and needy. I’m sure that if you looked deeply into his heart or life, you could find something to find fault with, but who among us is otherwise?
Perhaps they chose to drop this bomb during worship because they wanted to use the message time for another self-serving lecture on “shut up and put up.” It is not at all appropriate that they should have exposed this pastor – who is a good man – and shame him in front of all of the children of the congregation, not to speak of any visitors. What did they hope to accomplish? I can think of many parents who must have been mortified at what their children were hearing from the pulpit. These types of things are for mothers and fathers to share with their children if, when and how, they deem appropriate. This is simply another example of the leadership of this church demonstrating their apparent belief that they are the “end all, be all” and their authority and power supersedes that of the individual families. It is madness.
Family by family, the congregation shrinks. Each week there are fewer faithful in the rows. The evaluation process was a sham and the ensuing change is undetectable. Sometimes a ministry has to fall into ashes so that the Lord can restore it his way. I believe that the senior pastor/apostle was completely undone by the sin of his son a few years back now. He is an emotional man who believed deeply in the biblical principles of faithfulness and the sanctity of marriage. SGM did nothing for him in propping him up and glossing over the failings in that regard except heap destruction on the leadership team and this body of believers. After all, the initial failing of the senior pastor/apostle’s son (pastor-in-training himself) which was the first of this painful and shocking chain of events, proceeded from a faulty degree of oversight and leadership in this pastoral staff. That is what should have been dealt with, not swept under a rug.
Canary – What is done in public in a meeting, whether home group, family meeting or Sunday service, is a one-time event. If it is on the blog, it is potentially out there for someone’s lifetime through the blog or google cache, or some other cache. While people who were present at the meeting will always know of it, someone can’t do a google search on a name and find out something that happened 20 years ago. With the blog, they can. I appreciate Jim’s sensitivity even though we would like to know the details.
On the topic of the ApostleSon and the PastorSon – doesn’t this indicate a rather large scope problem in leadership? Do they see it?
I understand what the bible says about church discipline. However, my red flags at Metro began to rise up several years ago at another ‘family meeting’. Every member in the church met in the evening to hear an announcement that a man committed adultery. He had an ongoing relationship for a few years and there was another child born in the other relationship. (trying to stay vague here) As Danny told the story of how he was caught, how he asked forgiveness and was repentant and how the wife was doing, he told ALL of us not to do any business with this man. (This man owned his own business and this was the main family income.) Danny said that this man has repented but will be accountable to someone every minute of the day. I was just stunned that #1 I, who barely knew the man, was a part of this humiliation process and #2 that a church could control someone’s family income and destroy his business in one night. I’m sure the church members were a huge source of income for the family. #3 up until that night I thought a public church discipline was to be held only if the members were in danger. This was certainly not the case.
This man was not a pastor. I don’t think he was a home/care group leader. Just a guy who royally sinned, forgiven by his wife and yet the whole church had to be there, staring at him and whispering, while he took his lumps.
p.s. that couple is still together by God’s grace but Metro has used this church discipline as a success story of how public humiliation works.
Sin is sin.
David and Bathsheba’s sin is STILL being read about today.
It has NOTHING to do with the parents. It’s the sons’ sins. If it hasn’t already taken place, I’m praying for true repentance on their part.
If SGM “king pins” were as vigilant at purging sin and mismanagement among themselves as they are at purging it from their little pastors they wouldn’t have their names all over the internet right now.
I’m grieving and praying with the Metro Life folks. Can’t help but wonder if any of them/you are among those we loved dearly so long ago. You are on our hearts.
Freebird,
That is so sad, and UNBELIEVABLE! I can’t even imagine how awful that must have been for that couple. Praise God for the happy ending.
Unfortunately, many SG churches have a condemning, almost sadistic, attitude when it comes to their legalistic “sin sniffing.” It’s not enough to point your sin out…they want to rub your noses in it…CONSTANTLY reminding you.
In this poor couples case, they literally wanted to destroy him.
Evil…very evil.
Another example of being ‘essentially reformed’ which is like being kinda pregnant: impossible.
Even if you only hold onto a couple of TULIP petals, like SGM does, while rejecting all the rest of reformed theology, you should understand that each person is individually accountable to God, and in relationship with God, although we are certainy in covenant community together.
An adult son of a pastor is simply a grown man whose father is a pastor.
Samuel was kicked out of ministry? David? Doesn’t SGM sing Psalms at all, written by that adulterous father of whack-job sons?
One Foot out the Door: as a free sister in Christ, I humbly ask you: why in the world are you still in your church? There are hundreds of groups of believers around you each weekend, meeting to worship the Living God.
Can you hear your words, my sister/brother?
All that I have seen in the others over the past three years is hiding, manipulating, twisting scripture for justification of blatant errant behavior and blame-shifting. It is like a bunch of children are running the church.
Come out here into Freedomland–there are other places. SGM is not more special than the rest of us. Your pastors are massively undereducated, theologically, and are so tightly knit together that they prefer the approval of CJ, et al, rather than of God, who warns them to care for their flock by dying for them, like he did for us.
Our here in Freedomland, we don’t have “Family Meetings,” unless we are shoveling fried chicken in our faces and laughing alot and voting on elders. Our congregationally elected elders take care of discipline, and it is done graciously–with the goal being restoration and renewal. In a healthy church, only the elders (and not their wives or anyone else) know jack squat.
Funny that SGM is so hyper about movies, but they’ll have their kids sit there and point to a man and discuss adultery?
Whacko.
Come out here in the light, my brethren / sisteren. Sistren? Y’all girls.
I am sorry for being vague. Just know i am trying to follow Jim on this matter. I am more than happy to discuss this openly when he deems it is appropriate. In the meantime consider marraige and singleness and the difference being marraige is a covenant relationship. maybe that will help???
Debutante–The public nature of this on a Sunday morning during service aims at only one purpose-humiliation of the Pastor laying down his pastoral duties.
Question to the lurkers from Metro, did he want to lay down his duties or was he told to lay down his duties??? Is it temporary or permanent??? What happens to those he was currently counseling?? Is he still getting paid???
For the fence sitters–was the fence pulled out from underneath you Sunday???
I have left a message on said pastors voice mail, he is a man i love dearly and he has my full support and prayer as he and his family deal with what has happened.
I’m still pondering over the story of that poor man and his family that Free Bird shared.
I thought we were suppose to help RESTORE after repentance…not DESTROY!
Narcissism and sadism can go hand in hand…
“The Sadistic Personality disorder is characterized by a pattern of gratuitous cruelty, aggression, and demeaning behaviors which indicate the existence of deep-seated contempt for other people and an utter lack of empathy. Some sadists are “utilitarian”: they leverage their explosive violence to establish a position of unchallenged dominance within a relationship. Unlike psychopaths, they rarely use physical force in the commission of crimes. Rather, their aggressiveness is embedded in an interpersonal context and is expressed in social settings, such as the family or the workplace.
This narcissistic need for an audience manifests itself in other circumstances. Sadists strive to humiliate people in front of witnesses. This makes them feel omnipotent. Power plays are important to them and they are likely to treat people under their control or entrusted to their care harshly: a subordinate, a child, a student, a prisoner, a patient, or a spouse are all liable to suffer the consequences of the sadist’s “control freakery” and exacting “disciplinary” measures.”
(Quote from “Malignant Self Love – Narcissism Revisited”)
Quote taken from “Narcissism in the Pulpit”…
“Generally most church conflict is caused by carnality, selfishness and ambition (1 Cor 3:3)., Combine these sinful behaviors with an antagonist or two and you can have serious conflict problems as we have discussed earlier. Add selfish ambition to these characteristic in the Senior Pastor and spiritual abuse can be meted out in sinful, and destructive ways. But there is one unbearable situation that unfortunately occurs too often within the church, that I wish to discuss: That of a pastor with a personality disorder shepherding, (or pretending to shepherd) the church body. Generally individuals that manifest serious personality disorders such as schizophrenia, paranoid, borderline, etc are not stable enough to survive in leadership positions. But due to the nature of the pastorate and the way in which pastors are called and dismissed, there is one personality that somehow manages to survive in the pastorate—that of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). Generally it takes a long time before this devious individual is identified for who and what he really is, and some of the most gifted are able to survive for years in one location. Many though will have short tenures. Depending on the size of the congregation and the perceptiveness of the leadership it may take 6 months to a couple of years before the problem is clearly perceived—that the pastor is devoid of spiritual depth, personal character, and really could care less about the welfare of the sheep. If the destructive characteristics are not identified and the narcissist is allowed to minister long range serious problems will manifest. The NPD pastors can be very abusive and destructive to the church, and wreak havoc in the personal lives of those closest to them…”
Canary said,
“Just curious – why are we talking about ML then? Why all the secrecy? Whatever happened was in a public meeting. Why can’t it be talked about on a blog that is exposing the sort of hypocrisy that has supposedly taken place? No disrespect to Jim – I just don’t understand. We aren’t giving in to the old gossip and slander line, are we? Actions can be explained without using names. No more secrets! Please, no offense intended, just a bit frustrated at all the vagueness. It is waaaay to familiar.”
Absolutely! Wasn’t secrecy and hiding things in the dark one of the main reasons the abuse was allowed to grow and flourish within the “walls” of SGM? Sing on Canary! Your voice is beautiful and right on!
Reread Matt 18 – taking it to the church is to be used only if the person is not repentant and will not hear! Free Bird’s sad story is another case of a SGM church not walking out the will of God and following Scripture! Matthew 18:17 “And if he refuses to hear them tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”
Over and over again we hear stories demonstrating that SGM does not truly walk out the very Gospel, the very Word of God that they hold over the heads of the sheep! Free Bird, this was spiritual abuse of every person in that congregation. That man was used to manipulate and control the others.
This is all so terribly sad and handled with such callous disregard for all. The setting to divulge such matters in a Sunday morning service, as some have pointed out, includes visitors and children of all ages.This is a mockery of “church discipline”. Public shaming should be their more appropriate banner.
The “family meeting” news now takes top focus and discussion. Convenient. The upheavals caused by prideful, authoritative pastors is now deflected to unveil sins that, as RT pointed out, in a congregational church would be handled with discretion by elders with the goal of bringing forth restoration and renewal.
Apparently, CJ is scheduled to speak this coming Sunday. Betcha he’s got some BIG bandaids ready and that old orange antiseptic to make everything look and sound like there’s really no gangreene —ya know, all of sgm is soooooooooo Biblical and the pastors at ML are soooooooooooooo broken and humbled over everything.
Implosions, implosions ——Brethren at ML— I pray you will see this as your vehicle of deliverance God is providing for you ———- run to the Good Sherpherd— His Voice and leading should usurp the manipulations of authoritative mauling ‘pastors’.
Fred,
I’ve communicated with canary offline since her post. I’ll say this online, hoping that this won’t turn into a bandwagon.
Have I not earned your trust? Is it now safe to assume that if I request that certain details are kept from the blog that I’m somehow covering for SGM and participating in their brand of hiding the truth?
You know my phone number. Those who don’t can find it on the “about page”. Everything does not belong on the internet, and I’m confident that if we spoke offline, you would agree with my request for discretion.
I’m sorry, but after two years of fighting for those who have suffered pastoral abuse of authority at the hands of SGM, I don’t appreciate what is being implied.
No disrespect? My butt. The fact that I have an odd relationship with SGM leaders that allows me to be a part of helping WOUNDED SHEEP BECOME HEALED has caused me to lose your trust?
This part is not directed toward you, Fred, or to Canary, but generally speaking, read the last soooo metroooo post. If I’m not hitting SGM hard enough for your liking, go to survivors.
Fred,
Thanks. After reading more I can understand the need for sensitivity but not the need for so much vagueness. However, I do apologize to any I offended by asking my questions. I just believe that what is happening in sgm needs to remain under the light of scrutiny because that seems to be the only way that saints are being set free from authoritarianism. How many of you reading here have had your eyes opened to the truth by reading this blog?
Let’s keep the facts (minus names) in the light so others might see how much grace and love and joy there is in living out our freedom in Christ. I also pray that God will be merciful to the one who sinned and uplift the heart of the father who has been punished. It isn’t right to punish the son for the father’s sins. Why should it be allowed in reverse?
Jim,
I have not read my email yet. I’ll go do it now. However, I have to say that yes, you’ve earned our trust, at least mine. I just cannot go back to having that be a good reason to not ask my questions. My pastor said something to the effect of “I’m sorry you don’t trust me” in our last meeting. Now, my trust is placed in God. I think. I ponder. I ask questions. My questions were legitimate and, though you said you weren’t speaking to me in your above post, I must have the freedom to ask what I believe needs to be asked without the “trust” issue being introduced.
You have done more for the saints in sgm by starting the Refuge than anyone I know. Not questioning that.
This part is not directed toward you, Fred, or to Canary, but generally speaking, read the last soooo metroooo post. If I’m not hitting SGM hard enough for your liking, go to survivors.
This was a bit of an over-reaction, don’t you think, no matter who it is directed towards? I can’t speak for the others but I am not interested in “hitting SGM hard”, only in keeping the truth in the light (minus names) so that the Holy Spirit can set others’ free. That is all.
Sincerely, a very humble tweety
Jim has given me permission to disclose the following information to you, he has read it and approved it:
I am privy to some background details regarding this situation. I am still a SG member but as my handle suggests, maybe not for long. Yes, it strikes me as odd as to how they handle discipline. DJ didn’t have to step down when his adult son sinned. So why then do they feel the need to have MN step down because his single adult son sinned but now is taking the steps to do things the right way. MN was blindsided by the request for him to step down (the order came all the way from the top and the evaluation was part of this process as well). It is temporary (half a year, with some pay) but definitely not voluntary. He’s being ‘released’ from all pastoral duties.
And BP, why does he get to stay on board? Is it because the evaluation team already knew that this was coming and they needed someone to help out since Todd left? BP, well lets just say, his sons aren’t too far from MN’s sons actions….but we don’t hear about that, it’s covered up and not up for discussion.
Yes, the leadership knew about this situation in Jan. Let’s just be clear it wasn’t brought to light right away because all parties, families and pastors had to discuss the details first. However, the other church that is involved made the news known in March. How did they handle this? Did they have an announcement on Sunday morning with kids and guest present? NO! They wrote a letter to the CGs and let the CGs read it to at their next meeting.
They only announced it now because they had to, its MN’s sons last Sunday there, so they had to say something.
This angers me and confuses me about SGM. Who decides who gets church disciplined? Who decides what is worth being disciplined for? How do they justify disciplining a pastor for his grown child’s behavior but covering up rape? There is a story on another blog (Noel’s story) that tells in great detail how in BP’s old church they covered up rape charges. When they had the opportunity to warn the families in their church and protect their children, they choose to safe face and not disclose this information to the members. This is not the only instance of these charges, with more than one different perp. How can they cover up these actions but shout at the roof top about someone trying to do the right thing about a wrong decision that doesn’t physically harm any of the members or put them in harms way?
Frustrated and wanting someone to answer when will they protect the innocent kids instead of looking for innocent people to accuse for someone else’s actions?
Hope some of that information was helpful in explaining the situation.
Jim, you are a man who watches his mouth, and whom God is using to entirely change this small part of the body of Christ.
Thank you.
Canary,
My reaction reflects exactly how I feel. I was not speaking to you or Fred when I invited people to go to survivors, but the rest of my comment was directed towards the two of you, and anyone else who was about to jump on the bandwagon.
You should understand why I find it offensive to be compared to abusive pastors, which is what you’ve done in two posts now.
I made a decision to keep certain details off of this blog. I am asking you to trust my reasons for doing this, or at least to contact me and ask why. As you know, I didn’t dodge the question offline. You did not hear “just trust me.” You heard detailed reasons for my decision.
Jim,
WHEN DID I COMPARE YOU TO ABUSIVE PASTORS???? Please quote me so I may rephrase my words because I WOULD NEVER DO THAT.
I would extend Jim some trust in this instance. He certainly has earned it over these last few years.
Maybe Jim is trying to avoid happening that others in this same thread have questioned happening etc.
The apparent double standard isn’t that surprising. This is the same group where C.J.’s brother in-law wasn’t disciplined for problems with one of his children while another pastor at CLC was. It certainly didn’t to be the same standard applied to each.
With that said, the above examples were as I understand teenagers and not grown adults. I question how proper it is to hold a pastor accountable for the actions of their grown adult age children as was the case being discussed at MLC. This especially true the longer their children are adults. Still, there should be consistency.
As I have shared before, what SGM says they believe about how a person becomes a believer should lead to the group making an allowance for the possibility that some of their children will not be saved. They say they believe in a “sovereign grace” and it is God who will decide who He “elects” to salvation. If that is the case them there is a possibility that some of their children, including leaders’ children, may not come to Christ or their date of “election” will be delayed.
If one truly believes the above, as they say they do, then a group can expect to have children that aren’t saved and have actions that one would unbelievers to do. I don’t know anything about the son being discussed here so have no idea if he professes to be saved or not. I just question the validity of hold parents accountable for the actions of their adult children. Again if a group is going to do that (an be inconsistent with what they say they believe) then they should be consistent in how they do this with all pastors.
Maybe this is an an excuse they used to get rid of a pastor they didn’t want etc as others have suggested.
Canary,
In the post at the top of this thread, I said, “No details please, as everyone already knows the issues at hand and discretion will serve everyone involved.”
At 12:08 AM, you said, “No disrespect to Jim – I just don’t understand. We aren’t giving in to the old gossip and slander line, are we? Actions can be explained without using names. No more secrets! Please, no offense intended, just a bit frustrated at all the vagueness. It is waaaay to familiar.”
At 1:08 PM, you said, “Jim, I have not read my email yet. I’ll go do it now. However, I have to say that yes, you’ve earned our trust, at least mine. I just cannot go back to having that be a good reason to not ask my questions. My pastor said something to the effect of “I’m sorry you don’t trust me” in our last meeting.”
Maybe I’m connecting dots that aren’t there….
One Foot In,
Thank you for that very thoughtful and careful post. That was all I was looking for. I don’t even know half the people you used initials for but you have made us understand how dire it all is. Hopefully, you have made others begin to question as well. I don’t understand why one pastor is asked to go and another stays. Why one has the “gift” and then doesn’t. Why adult pastors are held responsible for their adult offsprings’ sins. Why said pastor should be humiliated as he was. I just don’t understand.
Praying for all involved. This is a tragedy for all the saints of sgm. I pray for all those who are leaving, who are hurt, confused, and betrayed. God be with them, comfort them, lead them to other saints who can comfort them. Let them know that the church oustide of sgm is not like this everywhere! Let them find grace and freedom to walk with Jesus, to know Him more, and to be taught by His gentle hand. Please, God. Please.
Yes Jim, you are connecting the dots…incorrectly. First off, not everybody knew the issues at hand. I certainly didn’t. I could not figure out what anyone was talking about until later on.
“No disrespect to Jim – I just don’t understand. We aren’t giving in to the old gossip and slander line, are we? Actions can be explained without using names. No more secrets! Please, no offense intended, just a bit frustrated at all the vagueness. It is waaaay to familiar.”
How could you take this as meaning I was accusing you of being like an abusive pastor? I, as a longtime blogger here, was only pointing out that we should keep things (discreetly) in the light. I said I intended no offense. One Foot In did a nice job of explaining everything for those of us who were not in the loop. That’s all I was looking for. Everything was so vague…it did remind me of my pdi days but only as experiential – all the secrecy. I meant no reflection on you personally. I thought you knew me better than that. However, I am very, very, sincerely sorry I offended you. Please believe I did not mean what you thought I meant.
“Jim, I have not read my email yet. I’ll go do it now. However, I have to say that yes, you’ve earned our trust, at least mine. I just cannot go back to having that be a good reason to not ask my questions. My pastor said something to the effect of “I’m sorry you don’t trust me” in our last meeting.”
It astonishes me that you took this offensively. Wow. Maybe I should have put in some smiley faces. None of us should EVER let the trust issue keep us from asking legitimate questions. EVER. My questions were gracious but legitimate. Why did they upset you so? No where did I accuse you of being an abusive pastor. Again, I was explaining my experience and what I have learned about not being afraid to ask questions. I was completely taken off guard, no, stunned, that you saw anything more in my posts than I intended. Again, I profusely apologize for offending you. I do not apologize for asking my questions. As I said earlier, One Foot In very discreetily explained everything I and others needed to know about what happened. That’s all I was looking for. Surely Jim, you’ve had my support during the life of this blog. You could have thought the best of me and queried my meaning if it offended you, without getting angry. That hurt my feelings, though I’m usually a tough little tweety.
However, what’s done is done. I sincerely apologize again for making you feel what you did. I will continue asking my questions and sharing my views here unless you want me to hang my cage somewhere else. Otherwise, can we shake hands and agree that a misunderstanding occurred?
Folks -
This just isn’t about SGM though there is a tendency to focus on where the problems are. These things going on at ML affect the body of Christ in more ways than we can imagine. The world sees our issues which is fine because we have them. What they need to see as well is our love, compassion, graciousness, mercy and forgiveness with one another.
There are many on the blogs that are brutal toward the SGM practices and I am one of them – not because I want to beat them up but to ring the alarm in a more public manner since working privately was not effective (impossible) and there was no help for the wounded which Refuge and Survivors give the venue for both.
What is happening in ML now is what has been going on as long as I can remember in PDI (1982) and I can make a list. The double standards are all over the place and forwhatever reason their leaders can’t see it or don’t care about it. The connection of the pastor to the sins of their children is an abomination and should be called out without reservations. Children like their parents sin because of the sin the is in us – give us break!!
If Jesus was part of SGM he would have had to step down before He went to the cross because of Judas. As a matter of fact it may be time for Jesus to step down as the Lord because of the sins of those in His church. If these ‘standards’ were applied across the board there would be zero pastors anywhere. It may be time for CJ to step down because of the all the sins of the pastors and ‘apostles’ of SGM under his charge. Where does it end?
The wrongful application of Matt 18 as church discipline has hurt enough people and these people need to stop it. I don’t see (yet) the calling of people to cut off their hand or pluck out their eye if they are the reason for sin (Matt 18:7) but they apply Matt 18:15-19 with great liberality. The subject matter of Matt 18 is about forgiveness and restoration not an order of discipline or self mutulation.
SGM Leaders —
Look at the people you are destroying who will spend years (decades maybe) before they will trust another spiritual leader. This my friends is not building the church but destroying the church. Your self-righteous posture is not producing the fruit of the Spirit. God gives grace to the humble not the humilated. It is time for humility from the top and the seeking out of the hundreds of people that have been devasted as a result of your over top exercise of authority (more bullying than pastoring). For the sake of the body of Christ, please clean the crap up – and trust me there are many that will help you do it.
Sometimes you have to just speak your mind – thanks for the opportunity to speak mine.
I apologize Canary. I’m a tough little…. something…myself. I’m off my game today and became easily offended. I misread you, got mad, and puked on the blog, getting plenty on you.
I’m very sorry. No excuses-I was wrong.
Fred-I apologize to you as well. I’m very sorry, and hope that the both of you, and everyone I flippantly told to “go to survivors” will forgive me.
This isn’t a “don’t go..please stay” thing. This is a, I blew it-I’m sorry.
I’m going to close my personal email and stay off the blog today.
I think the point of this discussion, originally, regards the REMOVAL OF PASTORS due to their children’s sins, and the fact that such removals are subjective and arbitrary, according to the whim of the Top Dog. And that takes us right back to polity. It’s not right. It’s wrong. It’s sin. We ought to call a family meeting to expose the sin of judging people unequally, excusing some but skewering others, etc. But we’re not the Top Dog so we can’t.
The sad thing about all this is that I’m not sure anybody needs or wants to know the details, because everyone who has kids has kids that sin. It’s not a matter of which sins are worse than others. This is about the uneven, unequal, arbitrary decision of “JoeBlow can stay in ministry though his son has sinned” versus “JackBlow cannot stay in ministry though his son has sinned.”
Who decides what sins are bad enough for public announcements or removal of parents from the pastorate? This is a can of worms, a Pandora’s box, a royal mess.
Criminal activity, particularly when conducted against church members — yes. Inform the congregation. Ask them to pray. Explain how the criminal is being ministered to, counseled, and pointed toward rehabilitation. No vague “he’s being cared for” statements that imply alot more action than is actually provided. Do whatever is necessary to protect the victims, the community, the church. Guard them, help them heal. Be honest and open, but not in a vindictive manner.
Non-criminal behavior - ”regular” sins – Where does it stop? Adultery? Gossip? Overeating? Financial mismanagement? Not having a quiet time? Call a Family Meeting to announce that So-and-so doesn’t regularly balance the checkbook?
From where I sit, it looks like maybe they’re trying to be more “honest and open” these days ,since they’ve taken alot of heat for covering up — and now it’s darned if you do and darned if you don’t. Shoot, one woman I know was not allowed to tell people that her husband had run off with another woman — it would be gossip that would dishonor him. But now, it’s a new day, and they’re announcing sins publicly. When the pendulum swings, it goes from one extreme to the other. If they could learn how to temper “honest and open” with common sense and discretion, it would help the church. It’s bad form to blindside any sinner on a Sunday morning. I’m thinking the average pew-sitter is quaking in their boots, wondering if they’re gonna be next.
Well, all I can say about the privacy angle of this thread is that it’s useless without pictures.
(That comment is added for the sake of levity. As in hahaha and all of that.)
I think the hearts of both Jim and Canary are kindhearted and they each have everyone’s best interests in mind. Both views make valid and important points which add understanding to the delicate nature of what happens in cults.
Kindred Spirit said, “Unfortunately, many SG churches have a condemning, almost sadistic, attitude when it comes to their legalistic “sin sniffing.” It’s not enough to point your sin out…they want to rub your noses in it…CONSTANTLY reminding you. In this poor couples case, they literally wanted to destroy him. Evil…very evil.”
Someone else cited some good material on Narcissistic Personality Disorder which describes CJ magnificently well. What is amazing is how difficult it is for most people to see the blatant manifestations. I know how easy it is to fall into the trap. Been there. Done that.
I pray that whoever has been hurt through this recent SGM fiasco with the pastor’s child – sees the light and drops to his or her knees seeing God’s mercy as never before. Being ousted from SGM’s hierarchy is probably a blessing in the long run.
Please can someone answer this question for me. I’m seeing the phrase “family meetings” bandied about in several postings here as though it’s a commonly understood term.
Does SGM typically call congregational gatherings to cover “important” issues – “family meetings”?
Also, who is the “apostle” with SGM? Is it CJ? Or are there several apostles?
Patricia,
There’s LOTS of stuff on Narcissistic Personality Disorder on the internet these days. Much of it is more ”scholarly” than what I quoted.
And sadly, more and more is popping up on pastors with NPD. Do a google search on “pastors” and “narcissistic personality disorder.”
What frightens me is the large number of “NPD types” (I’m talking membership) that are attracted to SGM.
I’m encouraged to see “help sites” now for the children of “NPD parents.” I have a heart for such children.
Big hugs, Jim. We simply misunderstood each other. It happens. We’ve worked through it. I’m so glad. Have a restful day in Jesus.
Yes, you also have a good point. If we were talking about young children, it might be a different story – father not spending enough time with them, not loving them or teaching them because his pastoral duties are too heavy – that I can understand – step down and see to your family. But to cost a man his job because his adult son made some terrible choices – I just don’t get it. Wouldn’t this be a great way to teach all the sinner-saints (tongue in cheek) how to help their older children be restored to the Lord if they make the same choices? Sin is messy. Grace is even messier. It requires more of a clean-up.
Patricia,
On another thread I posted the following link to Wittenburg Gate on an excellent series they did on controlling personalities in the church.
http://dory.typepad.com/witten.....g_per.html
Freebird said, “Every member in the church met in the evening to hear an announcement that a man committed adultery. He had an ongoing relationship for a few years and there was another child born in the other relationship. (trying to stay vague here) As Danny told the story of how he was caught, how he asked forgiveness and was repentant and how the wife was doing, he told ALL of us not to do any business with this man. (This man owned his own business and this was the main family income.) ”
WHAT?! So this woman has her husband cheat on her for years, suffers one of hte most horrific things, probably feeling like God has BLESSED the adulterous relationship by giving this couple a child, then after her husband repents she is unbelievably strong enough to FORGIVE the guy and willing to start over and her churches reaction is to… rip the food out of her mouth and the mouths of her children?!?!?!?! What the heck?!?! What a bunch of insensitive (grumble, growl, groan). Way to go, Guys.
One Foot Out the Door,
I’m sorry you’re going through this. It is a terribly painful process. I pray that Jesus comforts and guides you and your family through this time.
Stunned
Good prayer, Stunned.
Patricia,
A “family meeting” is separate from the open meetings. Only members are allowed to attend the family meetings, usually to discuss something of importance. Hope that helps…
Irv, thanks for speaking your mind.
As I read this, I am remembering the Pharisees of around 2000 years ago, and recall how that turned out for the Jewish nation around 70 A.D..
God help us here in America!
I am praying that this is part of God’s cleansing of His Church, and that we all are not carried away into slavery in the middle east or China in the near future (as happened to Israel a few times because of their disobedience to God.)
From my seat here, I see SGM leadership hardening against God, His word, and His Bride.
(And SGM is not the only church type organization doing this.)
I keep hearing Jesus’ words,
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (NASB)
These men leading SGM are LAWLESS!
We have been warned in scripture in several places to be on guard.
Why?
Because it will happen. (It IS happening. Right NOW!)
I’m not talking about the sinners, who sinned. I’m talking about the men who publicly humiliate the sinners who sinned.
This is about the Pharisees who are positioning for more power rather than to minister Grace and the Gospel to the church.
I’d like to read an account, just once, of a congregation in one of these types of “Family meetings” rising up and carrying these Pharisees out the front doors and depositing them in the ditch across the road with a firm warning to NEVER RETURN!
But that’s just me.
(Come quickly Lord Jesus!)
Jim,
I am so very sorry for offending you and giving you the perception that I was comparing you to an abusive pastor. There is not now nor has there ever been any part of me that thought that you were abusive, deceptive, unkind, etc, etc. I am so very sorry that it came across that way to you. I appreciate your heart and your desire to protect certain individuals. I also very much appreciate the fact that you allowed One Foot to post an explanation. This has helped me so much and I imagine others who were in the dark as well. No one needs to know names and no one needs to know specific details but when issues are brought into the light, it is helpful for the generalities to be exposed. This mechanism of revealing error, abuse, unfairness, etc., I believe, has become an agent of accountability for SGM and therefore must be protected.
Many of us have come to believe that God has and is using refuge and survivors to expose the terrible darkness that has been over SGM for so many years. Sadly, it appears that SGM would have continued business as usual without the blogs. Look at the number of people that have posted their stories on the blogs. Story after story of people who loved SGM, the people and the pastors and especially Jesus Christ. These people went to the pastors and upper leadership with issues and concerns regarding abuse, wrong doctrine, control, even just questions regarding the church. We all know how these people were treated. They were met with humiliation, scorn, riducule and accusation. Some were kicked out of their churches by the leaders and some left because of the revelation of the great error within SGM. Either way those who have left, have left wounded, hurt and questioning the church in general. Many are afraid to even step into the doorway of another church. How many of the pastors and apostles, of their own accord, of their own conviction have contacted those that they hurt on their own? How many cases have been resolved because those within SGM felt Holy Spirit led conviction and said I must “on my own” confront my sin and RUN to those that I have hurt and ask them for forgiveness? Have any done this?
My point is this: without truth on these blogs, the abuse would be occuring even TODAY within SGM churches. That is why I feel so strongly that we must not in any way hide the issues.
Certainly, I do not want those innocent ones to be hurt anymore than they already have been. I do respect you Jim for desiring to protect those who are innocent bystanders. Jim, you have a great big heart of compassion and love for your brothers and sisters and you demonstrate that time and time again. Thank you again for all the time and effort and the huge burden that this blog has been to you and your wife. I know that God has many jewels in your crown because of all that you have done for the sake of the Kingdom of God and for His beloved children.
I pray for God’s grace and mercy for all those who have left SGM as well as for all those who are still in. Whether in or out, we have all been hurt and wounded badly by SGM. We have all been deceived and spiritually abused whether we can see it or not. What hurts one part of the Body, hurts the whole Body. My prayer is that we all come to know the real Jesus Christ, not a counterfeit and not who man says He is! Truly, may God help us all!
All: I just want to say-
I realize I donot pray for Jim and Carole on a consistent basis…and see that they are, indeed, on “the front lines”, so to speak. In Jims position, I’m sure he knows so many more details and “goings-on” than we have an inkling of. And we are thankful for his discerning heart to protect when discretion is needed.—Well, that to say,let us all remember to pray for one another and especially for Jim and Carole —that the “strong right Arm of the Lord” will uphold them, strengthen them, and fully equip them as they lead this ”platoon of troops” !
Thank you Waters! Amen to that! Jim, you are indeed a “General in the Faith” and you have led and are continuing to lead this “platoon of troops” well!
Waters:
Thank you for June 8th, 2010 at 7:47 pm.
Everyone:
I trust Jim’s discretion on this matter. There may be a lot more going on than we know about, and this has been the case in more than one situation where discretion was needed in the process of a fruitful outcome.
I’m asking the beloved in Christ on this blog to give Jim the benefit of the doubt on this before there are any more defenses of our own actions in desiring revelations.
Thanks,
–pk
Well, thank you everyone. My behavior today should cost me some jewels and some trust. Thank God for His grace! I’m grateful for your understanding and forgiveness.
Some days I just need to stay away… did I really say, ‘if you don’t like it, go to survivors”. holy moley, what a twit.
Could we just sorta forget today happened
Someone said, “Sadly, it appears that SGM would have continued business as usual without the blogs. ”
Oh you can be sure of that! They are doing damage control right now.
I gag when I read these posts here. If SGM was not a cult, then people could not be posting the things we see here.
Jim, Jim, Jim…
“Could we just sorta forget today happened
”
Not a chance, no matter how many smileys you use.
I think ‘”if you don’t like it, go to survivors” should be added to our Quote of the Day catalogue.
Everyone else…what say you?
–jw
PK – I second the motion — “If you don’t like it, go to survivors” I did have a laugh at that one at Jim’s expense (sorry Jim) — I do think there was some presumption on your part that Kris and Guy would welcome them!!
Jim – As difficult (or bad) the day was for you; the interchange with Fred, Canary and others, it was also a great day. Everyone got their thoughts on the table, emotions and fur were ruffled and everyone came back to a place of healing, restoration and peace; and we can have a good laugh at ourselves. How good is that?
And everyone is still welcome at survivors
God is so good!!! And I think you all are pretty special too!!
Irv
Uh-huh………… and in Yiddish we could say: Today, my friends, we came through a bit of a fermisht——–Mozal Tov!!!
My thanks to everyone who responded to my questions about these so-called “family meetings”. So this means that any Christian family (related by blood) attending SGM who is not an official member – could not attend such a “family meeting.” Hogwash! I’ll take a country club membership over that, thank you.
As someone here said so well, God’s church as a whole is “family”. Family is not just a single denomination or membership list or some other simpleton imagining.
So CJ is speaking at the Southern Baptist Convention? Someone must have spiked their Kool-aid with acetone! Wonder how much money he’s giving them for the privilege of adding to his supposed crediblity? Is Richard Land going to promote CJ’s next book like Al Mohler did? All it takes is cash donations to the right institution. I am so disappointed in Mohler. I fully expect it from Land however.
Azaziah said, “A covenant is made when a promise is made before God regarding something He has instituted. Breaking that covenant is breaking your part of the promise of the covenant. if no covenant has been made than you have sinned against the Lord and the other person, but where not in a covenant relationship.”
Azaziah, what are examples of what “breaking the covenant” would look like at SGM? What does this mean?
1. You can’t lose any jewels. Don’t you know the P in TULIP? Perseverance of the…..
2. If you CAN lose jewels, can I have yours? I just love jewels.
3. Show yourself the same grace you show others, please. You are our beloved and trusted brother in Christ. We trust messes. The only perfect one is Jesus. Perfect people are, therefore, untrustable, since they are liars and self-deceived.
4. That’s all.
Thanks alot RT – you just shattered my wife’s vision? She now will see me as a liar and self-deceived!
To Jim: RT said, “Show yourself the same grace you show others, please. You are our beloved and trusted brother in Christ. We trust messes. The only perfect one is Jesus. Perfect people are, therefore, untrustable, since they are liars and self-deceived.”
“Perfect people are, therefore, untrustable, since they are liars and self-deceived.”
That’s a really perfect statement, if you ask me.
Irv,
I think you’re deceived! Your wife has probably known for a long time you’re not perfect. Perhaps it is you who whose vision has been shattered (by the knowledge that Mrs Irv knows you’re not perfect)?
Fred,
That was a beautiful post. Thank you for sharing it and thank you for expressing what so many of us have experienced.
Stunned
Will Mahaney be giving the same talk at SBC that he gave in April at Metro?
http://www.metrolifemedia.org/04252010.mp3
If you can figure out what he’s talking about, let me know! On second thought, don’t.
RT said, ‘Our here in Freedomland, we don’t have “Family Meetings,” unless we are shoveling fried chicken in our faces and laughing alot and voting on elders.’
Kindred Spirit said, “I’m encouraged to see “help sites” now for the children of “NPD parents.” I have a heart for such children.”
Kindred, please add my two children to that list of those you care for and pray for. It is anguishing to see them suffer from their affiliation (both from their past and now in their adutlhood) with their NPD father.
Stunned
but grateful for those who have compassion for the hurting
Jim said, “holy moley, what a twit.”
Jim, come on board the twit train, Brother. There are a lot of us in here, but plenty of room for more. In fact, I’m sure there’s enough for every person on earth. I’m so glad that God and all of you here are gracious and kind when I’m a twit. Lots of Jesus-love and grace to you.
Stunned twitless
Waters,
Oy, I agree. We can all get a bit mashugana at times. Fortunately Jim is a mensch as is Fred. Canary might be a shiksa but a good one at that.
Stunned
Traveling Girl-
Fred,
You expressed yourself very well. Please don’t feel bad. We just had a misconnection somewhere today. Everything is fine. It gets a bit messy around here once in a while. It is sometimes hard to express our thoughts in proper words. You did well, my friend.
Stunned, okay, what does “mensch” and “shiksa” mean? I don’t speak Yiddish (wish I did!).
You need to come back east and learn.
Mensch normally means a person of integrity and honor.
Shiksa used to be a negative term to describe us gentile girls. Now it is just a regular term to describe us. Especially for a Gentile woman interested in a Jewish man. (Jesus anyone?)
Thanks Canary and Stunned! Thanking God this morning that His mercies are new every morning and His compassion never fails! Our God is amazing and awesome and I praise His name!!
Fred, love to remember Gods mercies ARE new every morning…..and we can count on His compassion to enfold us. ….A special thankyou to you and Canary for your desires to walk with Gods people in Truth and Light………”The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.” (Phil 4:23)
Traveling Girl –
I am free, Thank God, free at last!! The truth has set me free!
I can finally be myself – no holding back!!
I am assuming there are no significant differences between the two cases that would justify one pastor having to step down and the other being able to remain in SGM’s thinking? I am guessing they must have something in their mind to justify the apparent difference?
What about the son of the pastor who had to step down. Did they practice church discipline on him or has he already repented or maybe wasn’t a member of Metro?
Stunned,
“Kindred, please add my two children to that list of those you care for and pray for. It is anguishing to see them suffer from their affiliation (both from their past and now in their adutlhood) with their NPD father.”
Girl, count them “added” – at the TOP of the list!
Praise God they have you as their mother. So many of the kids with NPD dads have mothers who are incapable of helping their children because they are victims in the situation themselves. It’s sad, most children and spouses of NPD individuals don’t even know what’s going on. Typcially, they don’t know what “normal” looks like and just think that the NPD individual “can be mean, at times.” You can see the problem – we ALL “can be mean, at times,” – no one’s perfect, right? Some blame themselves for the NPD’s issues. It’s all heartbreaking and by far the hardest situation to minister to.
It absolutely breaks my heart and frustrates me at the same time. NPD can take on so many different forms. To just read an article or two on it and skim down a list of “symptoms,” most folks will conclude that the person in question doesn’t qualify. But if your “gut” made you question to begin with, there’s SOMETHING serious going on, and quite possibly it’s NPD to some degree.
Sorry, you can tell how passionate I am. I am as passionate about the kids and spouses of NPD’s as those who have a passion for physically abused women and children. Emotional abuse is just as bad, if not worse.
And spiritual abuse is *THE* worst. That’s why I just can’t understand SGM pastors and leaders. I would LITERALLY be trembling in fear at the thought of death and standing before God to give an account.
So add the spiritual element to a “christian NPD’er” and you have one BAD individual.
You’re TRULY a “survivor,” Stunned, and God is using your experience to minister to others. He will take care of your childen, and I know that you know that. I look forward to meeting you on the ”other side,” if not before.
Thanks Waters!
Steve asks: What about the son of the pastor who had to step down. Did they practice church discipline on him or has he already repented or maybe wasn’t a member of Metro?
This is a good question, along with the question of DJ’s son? Is he a member of MLC? In good standing? Or not? Is there some difference in the 2 son’s positions?
The hypocrisy of one leader/parent being assessed with the other apostle/parent standing in judgment is truly apalling.
I hope and pray that this would be so very very obvious.
Is it too much to pray that many many fine leaders and men would approach with this very question face to face when cjm is present?
Irv, I SO WISH that you would be there leading this questioning crowd in Orlando this weekend!! Talk to your friend about this grievous hypocrisy and beg him to come into the Light with his leadership!!
Waters, my thanks as well.
Stunned, you are definitely in my prayers today. The Lord loves your kids even more than you do (imagine that – a mother’s love is so fierce – yet God’s is bigger – wow – hard to picture). He is going to help them. Cling to the promise that “you and your household will be saved”. It only takes a single moment for the Lord to open someones eyes to the truth, a single flash of revelation to heal a wounded heart. Love to you! Canary
Jim, realizing how close you and Carole are to everything that is going on, I am praying for you both today. Stength and peace and rest…
Canary, hard to imagine a love greater than that. Yet it brings me great comfort to know that is the truth. Thank you.
I am so grieved to read about what is going on at ML these days.
Do these men (in authority) have no fear of God?
I read P$alm sixty nine this morning and was struck with the verses 22 through 28:
22 ¶ May their table before them become a snare; And when they are in peace, may it become a trap.
23 May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see, And make their loins shake continually.
24 Pour out Thine indignation on them, And may Thy burning anger overtake them.
25 May their camp be desolate; May none dwell in their tents.
26 For they have persecuted him whom Thou Thyself hast smitten, And they tell of the pain of those whom Thou hast wounded.
27 Do Thou add iniquity to their iniquity, And may they not come into Thy righteousness.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Now, this prophesy is about the Pharisees and what they did to Jesus, and their punishment.
But,
I see the pastor’s at ML dancing close to the same kind of actions. Are the ones being paraded and punished not believers?
(‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Matthew Twenty Five, verse 40.
NASB)
I am not saying this here to mount accusations against the pastors of SGM.
I am in fear for their eternal status!
Is there someone who can stand up to these men, to their faces and proclaim the Holiness of God to them?
IN LOVE?
Will they be open to God’s correction in their lives?
I fear for these men, and the people who remain under their authority.
Jim.
Am I off track here?
Am I being just a little too critical?
Defender
June 9th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
I am so grieved to read about what is going on at ML these days.
Do these men (in authority) have no fear of God?
Defended, thank you so much for getting this topic back to SOOOOOO MetrOOOOOOO.
What is happening in Orlando is so serious and the rest of the bantering should take place on a different thread (Jim can you start a thread for folks who just want to play catch up with old friends so this can stay open for anyone from Metro that has a question or concern?)
Members are being fed the company line ‘you don’t the whole story, we need to trust our leadership.”
Stunned, don’t forget schmuck and yutz.
Of course, I still am not understanding the jewel thing. Can the jewels?
“1. You can’t lose any jewels. Don’t you know the P in TULIP? Perseverance of the…..
2. If you CAN lose jewels, can I have yours? I just love jewels.”
So, are we *preserving* the loose jewels? Or are we getting rid of them? Or do we have the ability to lose them or are we asking permission?
And are these little precious stones, an addictive game on facebook or something that would, indeed, be painful to lose (not that I need worry about that.)
But, of course, I am the one who still doesn’t get the term, “Wait upon the Lord.” Is it a patient thing or a ask Him if he wants fries with that sort of a thing (or both?!?)
Oh, I will render this post at lease salvagably useful to say to Stunned, I will keep your children in prayer, oy-vey, a NPD person, what a yutz, usually a top shelf schmuck and is convinced that it’s everyone else that’s masshuginah and all.
Good point, Paul.
We should definitely not be praying for each other’s kids or discussing lives of freedom away from SGM or sharing request for prayer or learning Yiddish or running any bunny trails when talking about this very serious thing at Metro.
Jim! (snaps fingers!) Get right on this!!
All the people from Metro don’t want to hear all this other stuff, and we are blocking the lines so nobody can get through.
I’ll definitely shut up now. Don’t want to upset all the Metro people who are trying to get through but cannot. I’m sorry, Paul. I’m sure no one from Metro would benefit from seeing the humor and heart of the Refuge crowd.
Argh. Back to the laundry.
Hope it’s okay to say I love you guys?
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
It is a very difficult time for Metro Life saints. Can’t dispute that. As RT put it so well, the “humor and heart” of the folks here still goes on. Personally, I love all the yiddish but that’s just me. You have to remember Paul that most of us have been through the ” Members are being fed the company line ‘you don’t need the whole story, we need to trust our leadership” routine. A little humor helps us to face it all over again. It is so very hard to stick around this blog, to read over and over again of the same abuses – that nothing much has changed. It really isn’t very fun. It’s love that keeps us going. Love and lots of humor. Well, at least for most of us I suppose. Can’t speak for everybody.
So don’t say we aren’t taking the ML situation seriously. We care more than you know…
Ellie! I love your hugs…
RT,
LOL!
Paul,
I suppose that if anybody has any input on Metro, they can jump in when they can.
The light banter and Yiddish has a way of tempering the emotion of the topic.
At least it does for me.
Is there a Yiddish word for the Holiness of God?
Hey Canary,
We are stocking up in “Mikes….” for the Refuge party this Saturday.
I am saving a bottle of Black Cherry Pinot Noir for you & Mr. Canary.
(Bring your sleeping bags.)
HA!
Can’t believe Mrs Irv and I are missing the party!!! Sorry Paul for the momentary diversion but Defender said party!
BTW – Has Jim sanctioned this party?
He’s welcome to come and try to stop it.
I’ll pour him a glass.
Okay Defender! Sounds fun…can’t wait to meet you and Defended in person.
Wish you could all be there with us. Wouldn’t that be a blast?
I’m hoping this is the first of MANY Refuge / Survivor parties.
Wooo Hooo!
Defender, stop the bantering and pass the Pinot Noir already.
Heilik or heilikeit is Yiddish for holy or holiness, I believe. Where are all our Messianic Jewish brethren when you need ‘em?
Paul, actually I’ve been thinking about your post that this should remain all about Metro. Problem is that we have tacitly agreed to not kick butt and take names in this. So we are really waiting and encouraging one another.
Hopefully, this might be encouraging to you Metro lurkers. See, we have fun and care for one another, even though we don’t know each other on this side of eternity. We care for you, and many will be praying for you. Let us know how we can help and pray.
You must have already taken note that Jim is wonderful at keep confidence.
C”mon up Irv!
(As long as you’re buying. Remember, $3.50/bottle?)
HA!
Bring PK with you. I’ll enjoy face to face fellowship with he & his wife again.
It’s been a while.
Forecast is for 63 degrees and a chance of rain Saturday.
I haven’t put my winter clothes away, it’s not the 4th of July yet.
It could still turn to snow! (C’mon Jim.)
Defender –
It looks like I have some business that I have to take care of in Northern NM in mid to late July. Perhaps Mrs Irv and I will have to drive up to party with you all if things work out.
PK is working hard attending some pretty intense Criminal Law classes but maybe he and PD will be ready for a break!!
I only have a 6 week window as I only have summer clothes.
Hey, I’m having a big party at my house and you all are invited (haha, Stunned is *actually* invited) if the rest of you lived close enough you could come, too.
To put it in the context of the current Survivors discussion topic, Y’all are “essentially” invited.
Okay Irv, after the 4th.
HA!
“So don’t say we aren’t taking the ML situation seriously. We care more than you know…”
Yeah, really.
Some of us have been doing this for going on 3 years this fall. It’s not been easy, no matter how much some out there think we’re just “bitter gossipers”. We don’t want anyone else getting hurt, but we’re going to be there for the wounded…someone HAS to be. As Randy Stonehill’s song goes “we are His hands, we are His voice”
Now we decide that nothing can change
and throw up our hands in numb despair
And we lost a piece of our souls
by teaching ourselves just
how not to care
But Christ would have gone to the cross
just to save one child from being lost
And we are His hands
We are His voice
We are the ones who must
make the choice
And it must be now
There’s no time to waste
It must be you
No one can take your place
Can’t you see that only we
Can save the children
Save the children
Save the children
Please, save the children
“stop the bantering and pass the Pinot Noir already.”
RT,
Come and get it………..
No can do, even if I start peddling right now, I couldn’t make it. But thanks for the invite, and I raise a glass in your general direction.
Hanging with another Refuge poster next week, though, how fun is that?
But it definitely would be fun to have a Refuge party sometime…such an amazing group of people.
If not here, in the New Heavens and Earth! I hear the Pinot there is out of this world.
(Just a little eschatological humor, there.)
No offense guys, but honestly, this is a really rough time for those of us still at MLC. Jim, can we start a new thread to discuss the current situation and the leadership response? I’m getting lost in the Pinot comments and party planning. My heart is breaking for many people I love very much and these attempts at levity aren’t really helpful. Ellie, we appreciate that you care for us more than we know, but I think this isn’t the thread for the yiddish and party planning.
Oh RT you betcha!
He always saves the best for last, doesn’t He?
One foot–I think what you are seeing here is a group of people who are waiting for the next bloody person to walk into the room. No one has done so in a day. So they wait and chat, like the friends they have become.
Once a Metro specific issue comes up, you’ll see the banter stop, and the encouragement and prayer begin.
If you have a comment about the Metro issue, make it. You’ll see everyone quiet down, back off and listen.
Irv and Defender:
We are so craving Colorado weather, it ain’t funny (and I know if I am, Irv HAS to be craving it as well).
We’ll start looking at the calendar.
–pk
One Foot,
Do you have a comment for us about ML?
Until you do, we are talking amongst ourselves.
Cut in when you are ready.
BTW, We here are no longer in SGM, so we have learned our lesson about “Shut up, and do as you are told. The leadership knows more than you.”
Sorry if that sounded harsh, but we are “outside of SGM”, things are a little different here.
We would be happy to pray with, or for you. Invite you to a “Freedom” party, or exchange other greetings, but please join in, we are waiting to hear from you.
~D
One Foot….. we really are holding you in our hearts and caring very much.
I would invite you or anyone to take the conversation to the topic of MLC and I would really like to know answers, if you have them to my question posted at
June 9th, 2010 at 1:49 pm if you are so inclined or have the answers to my questions.
God bless you, keep you, and give you all his SHALOM. Really. Cling to HIS WORD! And feel free to discuss the pain, confusion or questions you have as you look at what seems to be blatant hypocrisy to me.
What about gathering men to talk to CJ, BP and DJ together? Is that an option?
I have an announcement. As of today, the last of my family members have departed from SGM! We all are free to go forward, grow and mature in Jesus, and hear him for ourselves. I am very grateful.
I’ve been beating around the bush a little on my SGM experience because I didn’t want to bring any trouble on family members still attending SGM churches, but now that everyone is safe, let me be direct. Hubbie and I were wounded and tossed aside at MLC in Orlando in the late 1980′s. My story appears on the My Story section of the blog. It took a long while, but we are well and whole. I have no more animosity for those who participated in my bad experience, but I am concerned that the same patterns of behavior have repeated, not only at MLC (apparently), but in SGM churches all over America and beyond. That’s why I am here.
All of the stories here have tugged at my heart, but hearing the goings-on at MLC stirs me deeply. If there are any of you MLCers who would like to talk or potentially reconnect (if you were around a long time ago), I would be delighted. It is quite possible that there is no one who would remember us. Even so, if anyone would like to converse, I would be glad to help. The Lord brought us through, and I would consider it part of His Redemption if I could aid others in their journey forward, even in any small way.
Blessings in Jesus,
Gracie
Praise God Gracie – we rejoice with you and your family.
One Foot – if there is any group of people that understand your pain it is this group. We are in no way making light the situation as many of us are directly tied to ML through our relationships. Perhaps it appears we are not sensitive – please forgive us if our bantering is adding to your pain.
There are very few on this blog who haven’t been exactly where you are now. The overwhelming feeling that things are not right, the helplessness of not being able to get information, seeing friends destroyed and not having a voice into the situation.
Having now been involved with these fine folks for a few months, there are not many more compassionate supporters of those of you going through the SGM meltdowns, coverups and let’s proceed as if all is fine in the kingdom. (except for the 800lb gorilla in the middle of the room).
Most of the people have been praying for you and the church (and the leaders) - sense Gracie’s heart for her family in her post. One Foot – the situation you are in is worse than you may know. This is a safe place for you and comments are not meant to be critical.
Our love and compassion go deep and our concern for you and ML is off the chart. Please feel free to communicate as your heart and spirit dictate. We are here for you!!
May the Lord keep you and bless you in this difficult time and may His light reveal all darkness and His healing on each person impacted and hurt by the leadership decisions.
Irv
One Foot:
Apologies, as familiarity–like in any situation in a group setting–can appear as those on the ‘fuge not listening or caring, etc. Many times comments cross each other before important ones are read, etc.
PD and I have just recently left SGM after a total of 22+ years–while many know this behind the scenes, this is the first time I’ve revealed it publicly on the ‘fuge– in SGM churches. It’s not just hard to go through these situations and valleys of decision, it’s hell.
Please know our prayers are with you, and you feel free to email us any time, even if it’s just an ear or shoulder you need (no sarcasm in this, I am absolutely offering this to you):
protestantknight-at-gmail-dot-com
protestantdame-at-gmail-dot-com
Also know we are praying for everyone at MLC!
–pk
PK and PD, my heart aches for you, I know how painful that is
RT, your eschatological humor is always in better taste than my scatological humor
I should have reread Jim’s post before my last comment. Jim said:
“Your apostle/sr pastor’s adult son is on staff, gets in trouble, and dad gets a pass. CJ comes to town to defend him.”
In addition to this “apostle” being the father of the son in trouble he was also his son’s boss (or maybe boss’s boss). Thus he could have been held responsible for both being the son’s father and his boss. I am assuming that the son of the pastor who stepped down wasn’t on staff.
It sure looks like there was more of a case for the pastor who was an “apostle” to step down than the other pastor. I am assuming the other son wasn’t on staff like the apostle’s son was. Something sure doesn’t seem right.
Paul said:
“Members are being fed the company line ‘you don’t the whole story, we need to trust our leadership.”
I am sure it is hard for members to want to see in their own mind the questions this actions raises. Especially the more one has invested in Metro Life be it with time, money etc. the harder it is to want to have this “perfect world” shattered and admit that leadership isn’t doing the right thing. In other words, they have a hard time wanting to see the problems since it would destroy things in their mind. Thus I am sure for a number of them it is easier to ignore than to face what they will have to when their eyes open up.
It is along the lines of cognizant dissonance.
I’ve been away from my computer for a while so sorry that I haven’t posted what I know. Hopefully I can answer a couple of questions.
The pastor who had to step down (MN) has an adult son who still lives at home. He is a member of Metro in good standing. He repented and was seeking council for his sin (which was only between him and his fiance; which was not a sin against her but with her…does that make sense?). They had his father step down because he obviously wasn’t a good parent if his son sinned. (totally sarcastic)
The apostolic pastor (DJ) has an adult son who is married. His sin was against his wife and the vows he made when they were married. He was a pastor-in-training. He did leave the church for awhile and was totally unrepentant and more allegations were brought on top of the original ones. He is now back in fellowship at Metro but after trying to reconcile with his wife I’m not sure if that’s gonna happen.
Again, the fiance’s church handled it much better than Metro and as a result no one in that church feels that there is a cover-up trying to occur, but Metro is a different story.
Maybe there’s jealousy in the pastoral sphere there and this is a way to make sure that the competition is eliminated so that the others can still stay and their sins are overlooked…..just my thoughts.
I remember the caregroup leaders conference at CJ’s church many, many, years ago. We were still attending MLC, and strongly considering being a part of the church plant team for South Denver. CJ was speaking, eloquent words of sublime humility dripping from his lips like dew drops on a damp morning. In particular I was struck when he stated that he was “only keeping the chair warm, and that when the time came, he would gladly and quickly relinquish his position”.
It would appear that someone must have accidently painted that chair seat with contact cement. I am seeing SGM churches across the country (and have been a part of three of them) disintegrate. And yet it would appear that CJ’s resolve to dominate and control continues to strengthen, like a metastasizing cancer spreading destruction to those members that once were healthy.
I have been through the destructive process in Denver. It is one that took a severe toll on family and marriage. We felt miserable, and yet held on, hoping beyond hope that what was wrong would somehow change. It never did, and the South Denver church literally fell apart, with so many lives damaged or tossed into the sea, like flotsam and jetsam.
Having spent nearly a decade at Metro, my heart aches for the hurt and abuse so many of you have endured. We have been free from SGM for nearly 3 years and it has been amazing how much unlearning we have had to do. Making the decision to leave is tough and feels like a divorce, but that in and of itself should be a warning sign that things are not right! We, like so many others had allowed pastor and SGM leadership to stand in the stead of God. Combine this with a pastor and leadership structure that often embraced manipulation, fear and intimidation and it was a recipe for destruction.
I am outraged by the disparity in treatment between MN, DJ, and BP. Those of you close to the situation should know the details of all three. MN, I am praying for you.
To those of you on the fence, I spent almost four years hoping and believing that it would somehow get better, or that I could stay and make a difference. If I had it to do over again, I would RUN out of the building so fast that the door might fall off its hinges .
God is BIG, merciful, kind, loving and sees all that you are going through. There is nowhere in the Universe that you could get lost from him. But there are churches that will help you find Him again! Expect to be amazed when you do!!!
Ellie made no yiddish or party planning comment. You should re-read her encouraging post, One Foot. And we would like to be here to help any who wish to discuss what they are going through. In the meantime, we cannot apologize for fellowshipping with one another while we wait for any in Metro Life to post their thoughts. So far, all has been quiet on the southern front…
Gracie, CELEBRATING WITH YOU!!!! This has been so long in coming. The Lord is so faithful to have resolved all of your family difficulties. I am smiling as I write this. What a victorious time this is for you. I remember when you couldn’t even imagine how it would ever happen. Thank you, Lord Jesus!
PK and wife, it is so hard loosing all those friends, all the people you poured your lives into. I know that feeling. So do most of us. You will get through. We are all here to support you but the Living God is going to walk by you every step of the way!
Pk,
You fought the good fight, you were courageous to stay. You did what we could not, and represented those who went before you. You’re the captain who went down with his ship.
With grateful admiration,
Hope
Is 52:7-12
How beautiful upon the mountains
are the feet of him who brings good news,
who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness,
who publishes salvation,
who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”
The voice of your watchmen—they lift up their voice;
together they sing for joy;
for eye to eye they see
the return of the Lord to Zion.
Break forth together into singing,
you waste places of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people;
he has redeemed Jerusalem.
The Lord has bared his holy arm
before the eyes of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth shall see
the salvation of our God.
Depart, depart, go out from there;
touch no unclean thing;
go out from the midst of her; purify yourselves,
you who bear the vessels of the Lord.
For you shall not go out in haste,
and you shall not go in flight,
for the Lord will go before you,
and the God of Israel will be your rear guard .
Bless you, PK and PD. May our gracious – truly gracious – Lord Jesus Christ lead you, guide you, and give you His comfort, that of our Advocate, our precious Holy Spirit.
One Foot and Paul — As PK stated, our familiarity in bantering etc could seem insensitive —please know that we hear you…….I am deeply saddened whenever there is news of yet another sgm church experiencing implosion. Because that means the undercover sins committed by manipulative leadership has come to the point of being brought into the Light. And then we watch the leadership participate in the familiar shuffle and religoussgmspeak of bringing everything into “Biblical order.” And Gods people are stunned because they just can’t believe what they’re hearing.–
But there is good news! —you are indwelt by your Savior Redeemer—you are one of HIS…and you can hear HIS Voice and HE will enable you to hear and see with HIS discernment and strength as you walk through this. Ask for His leading and clarity and truth…….keep asking questions…….search the scriptures— no place will you read Gods requirement for Christians to place their trust in men (who are pastors or leaders or whoever) who manipulate and wound—to “trust” the leadership of such men would be destructive. The Lord our God is a Life-giver,deliverer,
redeemer, and restorer. He is the Good Shepherd and doesnot sentence us to submit to
destructive religous leadership.
Recall Jesus’ words to the Pharisees: Luke 11:42– “Woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God.”
Repeatedly, in church implosions we witness the disregard of justice and the love of God.
–And in the midst of each implosion, as we witness the disregard of justice and the absence of the love of God–there is the opening of the gate of deliverance!! And the definition of the word ‘deliverance’ is VICTORY!! —Praying for MLC Brethren———
PK and PD,
When some depart from sgm, there is a rumbling……As you have prayed and battled and walked through sorrows, your hands have been strengthened to strategically wield the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. The truth is exposing the cracks and fractures and counterfeits in sgm and sgm polity. Thankyou for engaging in the good fight of the faith.
Praying the joyous joy of the Lord will begin to lift you up and carry you as you continue to walk in the path He has set before you…….
HEY F&J
Tears abound for those at MLC that are left. MN is dearly loved. There are still many there drinking the Kool Aid, or as a friend of mine who is still there said tonight :aliens have taken over my friends bodies: ! It is like a bad rerun of the twilight zone.
DJ has some serious splanin’ to do Lucy! I am not sure how he is going to dig himself out of exposing this is public with visitors and peoples kids and non members in the pews. Makes you wonder if the Apostle DH gave the thumbs up for this type of public outting at a Sunday Morning “Celebration” This was bad posture indeed.
The family meeting will be up coming soon. I predict they will be dealing with more than MN. In order to look effective you have to clean out a lot of cupboards. I am already getting flack for outting this on the ‘fuge due to the Sunday gag order. Nice thing about that. I am no longer a member. I stopped drinking the Kool Aid. I can speak as God leads and not have to worry about someone else hearing from God for me!
Getting down to the serious.. prayer moves mountains. M&L N covet them to give them strength to be used as God would have them in this season. I am reminded of the account of Joesph in Genesis. God brought him through so much to place him in the right place at the right time. May God grant their household His Strength, His Mercy and His Kindness!
PK and PD — You’re amazing, gifted, wonderful people. I hope you will now go out with joy and be led forth in peace! Go somewhere, have some fun, rejoice in the Lord, take a deep breath, and shout for joy.
I don’t know if anyone else had a similar experience, but for several years after we left SGM, every time my husband and I went out to dinner, or took off for a romantic week-end, we’ d always end up talking about our SGM debacle — because it was so huge, so confusing, so crazy. We’d rather have been smiling, rejoicing, remembering a lifetime of wonderful moments, but instead, every time, at some point IT came up. Amid wine and candlelight, we shook our heads over lovely dinners and felt sad, saying oh, too many times, “what were they thinking?” “How could they…?” I wondered if we would ever have a normal evening out. I couldn’t understand why we allowed them to continue to rob us of joy. But now it’s clear: we had no one else to talk to. We thought we were the only ones.
But now, things have changed. We’ve been blessed by the kind words, diligent scholarship, and loving encouragement of PK, PD, and others who may have thought they’d been “removed from ministry”. You were not removed. You were moved, by God, to this place and to be sure, you will be moved to more physical places of ministry.
PK and PD – take some time to DANCE. I think of Tomlin’s words, ”when the love spills over, and music fills the night, and when you can’t contain the joy inside — dance with Jesus!”
Yes — DANCE with Him. Don’t spend a single dinner staring sadly across the table. Don’t cry into those wine glasses. You’ve got plenty of us to talk to. YOU have ministered to us — we will return the favor in every way we can. We understand, and we are praying for you!
So this would be my first time posting here, I am currently a member at Metro and am a very good friend of the son whose sin was announced last Sunday, whom you all have written so much about.
One Foot In – Since you are so knowledgeable about the details of this incident and can answer everyone’s questions, please enlighten me….I would like to know how you have come to the conclusion that the leadership team has tried to cover up this incident?
“Again, the fiance’s church handled it much better than Metro and as a result no one in that church feels that there is a cover-up trying to occur, but Metro is a different story“- One Foot In
Being close to the situation and actually having first hand information about the circumstances of this event, unless you are close to the situation( family member of a party involved or a close friend) I would say that your assumptions are completely ungrounded and a source for talk of which is also ungrounded.
Again because I actually knowthe details and circumstances of the event I can say that there was in fact no cover up and everything was handled with the best interests of the son and his family in mind.
The fact that you would say that there were master plans behind the way in which this information was unveiled and that it was in anyway part of a scheme to cover up other sins and gain power is absolutely offensive to the family and the close friends involved which includes me and the ” pastoral sphere”. “Maybe there’s jealousy in the pastoral sphere there and this is a way to make sure that the competition is eliminated so that the others can still stay and their sins are overlooked” this is a statement based on assumption and equivocal information. These types of things should not brought up about brothers in Christ. This kind of lax defamation of a serious situation and the parties involved, which is sovereignty in Gods hands and is being handled by the family and friends to the best of their ability with the grace of God, is clearly unbiblical. Therefore I would appreciate that you stick to talking about things that are based in truth and first hand information.
By Christ alone,
Ian
One Foot In
June 9th, 2010 at 10:55 pm“ Again, the fiance’s church handled it much better than Metro and as a result no one in that church feels that there is a cover-up trying to occur, but Metro is a different story.Maybe there’s jealousy in the pastoral sphere there and this is a way to make sure that the competition is eliminated so that the others can still stay and their sins are overlooked…..just my thoughts.”
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YIP… That would be very close to my feeling as well, However I think you will see JP get ordained, DJ retired for the entire fiasco that has been going on the past few years in his absence { and now in his presence} and all there will be left is the P family. I pray this is far from the case, but this is playing out like a game of chess. On lookers can see how it is all shaking out. Hope when I read this a year from now I will be wrong; I am just smokin swiss cheese. I really hope I am way off base.
Just getting back here.
Thanks for the update One foot.
My earlier question stands (rhetorically as it is.)
Do these men not fear God??
I pray God’s mercy on them, but I fear a terrible end, if they do not repent.
I pray god’s mercy on the saints still at ML.
To the saints at ML, please consider carefully if you want to remain under the hypocritical authority of men who do not fear God, how that may play out for you & your families.
It may be time to consider a decision.
These men do not love you.
These men do not love God.
They only love themselves, and what ever power they can get over you.
Can anyone tell me how the following passage does not apply to the men leading ML right now?
1 ¶ But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.
I am seriously open to criticism of the application of this passage.
I honestly want to know if this passage does NOT fit this situation.
Ah Ian, I realize that it may be really hard for you to come on here and read all of this since you are extremely close to all three families and their sons especially. However, I also am a close friend and so I do have details that are able to clear the air to some degree. Besides my own speculations (about the jealousy) can you say that any of the other information regarding the circumstances are not true? I would love for you to set the record straight if I’m wrong.
Defended, to clear one thing up, your assumptions about the situation with the married son are correct. However, he was on staff before the accusations came. Once everything was brought to light they removed him and he left the church for a short time. He is now back at Metro, NOT in a leadership capacity, and more accusations were made once he returned.
The other son, his sin involving his fiance is now resulting in marriage, is making every effort to make things right. So, their were no vows broken, just a young man with desires that were unable to be controlled until marriage.
So now I ask you, which parenting techniques failed more. A son who disregarded his sacred vows multiple times or a son who gave into his feeling for a young lady that was his girlfriend and now is resulting in an early marriage? How can they call for MN to step down while leaving DJ in place? Both sons are grown! This is the biggest hypocrisy of all. They should have allowed MN to stay in leadership because obviously his son is following scripture. 1 Cor 7:9 ‘but if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than burn with passion.’
PK and PD,
I did not know that you have left SGM! My heart goes out to you both! I know how hard you have fought and hoped for reform, change, restoration and redemption. May the God of all hope and peace saturate you both today in His love, His grace, His mercy and His amazing peace. You have fought well and God would say to you, Well done, my good and faithful servants!
Gracie– Just read your story and believe i should know you and your husband. Contact me at jggalaxytrek@gmail.com. I am happy you and your other family members made it out!!!
I have been wrestling with some things that happened to me and my wife in our last few encounters with DJ. Out of respect i have remained silent, but with what they have done to MN and family i am contemplating taking the gloves off.
This whole event is disgusting to me. MN was one of the few men in my life that could be counted on to exhibit God’s grace. We went to visit him and his wife tuesday night and am so thankful to be able to stand with him through this season!!!
I’ve deleted a couple of comments. PLEASE, let’s stay away from discussing the specific sins of the sons.
Send me an email or call me and I’ll fill you in (contact info on the “about” tab, top of page), but there are innocent people involved in this, and their misery does not need to be discussed on the internet.
One Foot In,
You make a good point…
“So now I ask you, which parenting techniques failed more. A son who disregarded his sacred vows multiple times or a son who gave into his feeling for a young lady that was his girlfriend and now is resulting in an early marriage? How can they call for MN to step down while leaving DJ in place? Both sons are grown! This is the biggest hypocrisy of all. They should have allowed MN to stay in leadership because obviously his son is following scripture. 1 Cor 7:9 ‘but if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than burn with passion.’”
I know this is off topic, but I find it interesting that SGM is so consumed with “premarital sex.” Don’t get me wrong, it’s sin and should be dealt with, but there’s an “icky” obsession with it – you know what I mean? Very, very ”icky!”
It’s like “premarital sex police” are CONSTANTLY patroling, looking for ANY behavior that might indicate there could be “criminal” activity going on. Let’s hope they’re just as diligent at “patroling” for adultery, lust, and porn usage among the married couples – young and “old.” (I just stepped on a few toes.)
Better yet, let’s pray they quit “patroling” PERIOD and direct their energies toward preaching the love of Jesus - when you come to realize THAT, the rest takes care of itself.
Gracie…I’m rejoicing over your news!
PK & PD…praying for you!
For everyone who has prayed for and encouraged PD and me so far in regard to departing SGM:
THANK YOU.
Much love and affection,
–pk
Azaziah said:
“This whole event is disgusting to me. MN was one of the few men in my life that could be counted on to exhibit God’s grace”
I can’t count how many times I’ve heard this offline.
Let’s be clear-Danny’s family issues do not begin and end with Jeremy. Everyone who has been at MLC for a while knows this. In Florida, other pastors, their families, and members of SGCs know this.
1 Tim 3 could not be more clear regarding elder/overseer qualifications.
4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?
SGM needs to drop all the calling and gifting mumbo jumbo language and stick with the clear command of God as found in His Word.
One Foot- The information that you gave about the situation was basically a short summary of the announcment on Sunday so I don’t have any problem with that. As to the comments about both churchs reactions, there is just to much underying information to make the assumption that one church is handling it well and the other isn’t. Of course people who are looking for a cover up are going to look anywhere they can to find one. Metro just has more of these kinds of people. I would think the majority of members at metro who aren’t looking for a cover up would just see this as MN taking time off to spend with his family whos going through alot right now. He is not stepping down permenently. It was a wise and good decision for MN to do what he did in just taking some time to refocus his prorities.
I just think ungrounded opinions aren’t good for anything but causing dissention.
As to what information is wrong……..The theory that this pastor is being offered as some sort of sacrificial lamb? Really? So the 15 years he served in ministry with the senior pastor means nothing to either of them anymore?
-Half a year with some pay-there is no timeframe given (the half a year was made up) and he’s being paid just as much as before
-The theory that BP didn’t have to step down simply to help with MN’s situation—pure speculation, and hilarious speculation at that.
-the claim that the step down is “definitely not voluntary”—talk to Mike and it will be clear that it is completely voluntary
Azaziah— Thankyou for standing with MN and family — this is where the Body of Christ become the hands and feet and heart of Jesus…we’re praying for this family too…
When the travesty and upheaval in Chesapeake was occuring 2 years ago, one of my dear friends declared what God had impressed upon her: “SGM has divorced Holy Spirit.” The clear astonishing LACK of discernment, compassion, discernment, leading, truth,discernment, is blaringly evident.
We all must choose……to serve and adhere to the edicts of a religous institution or to know and follow the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (because we love Him foremost).
Ian,
Maybe I didn’t make myself clear in the first response to you. I am privy to information you are not. I know for a fact that the other church made their announcement in March, so why did Metro wait so long? Why the secrecy? While the other church was able to talk about it freely and support the other person in this situation, Metro had no idea what was going on. That smells like a cover-up to me. They waited because they didn’t want to keep hitting the church with all these ‘family meetings’, first with DJ’s son, then with Todd, and more recently MN. Why do you think then that Metro has more people ‘looking for a cover-up’ than the other church? Could it possibly be because they are aware of cover-ups in the past?
As for my opinions, thats exactly what they are, opinions. And since no one remaining in leadership at Metro (DJ, BP) is going to comment on why they reached their decision I can only conclude what seems logical to me given the history. I’m pretty sure BP will not be making any kind of outward judgment since he knows about his skeletons in his own family (which you aren’t aware of, even if you are very close friends with his son).
You can continue to drink the kool-aid laced with legalism and believe what they want you to….that MN is ‘just taking some time to refocus his priorities’. However, this leave of absence was not his idea and he was blindsided with it (not on Sunday, but when the decision was given from on high). MN will tell anyone, just like he has been since this announcement, that it WASN’T voluntary. However, because of the kind of spiritual leader that he is, he is taking his lumps. He has suggested that anyone who doesn’t agree with the decision write a letter to the church, but I don’t see what good that will do since CJ will be there next Sunday to give his all approving stamp on the decision.
You (the congregation) may not have been given a time frame, but the time frame is 6 months. Again, you don’t have all the info (which is pretty sad because you are a committed member).
I understand you wanting to protect MN’s son, as you are close to him as well. However, everyone directly involved knows the decision was not the right one, no matter what they are telling the rest of the church, including you, they are just trying to get through a really crummy deal.
Jim, I hope you are doing well…:)
Everyone:
Sin happens. The Lord has made a way for us to be forgiven and reconciled to the Body. It is a beautiful thing to see when a heart comes full circle to walk in righteousness again. That is how this should have played out – at least with the son and fiance who are apparently taking care of their responsibility. The church should be able to rejoice that someone who “fell” is back on his/her feet. That is the love of Christ. If the Dad is stepping down for a short period of time to help his son, that is a noble thing. However, we have seen men step down and never resume their jobs again. I hope it is not the case in this situation for so much good is being said about the Pastor involved.
This is all happening for a reason. The truth is being revealed. Things that were covered up in the past are not able to be hidden today, not as easily. This is a good thing. The Lord’s heart desires restoration and change. He wants to see the leaders walking in integrity, caring for the sheep, walking with His love in their hearts. He wants to set the saints free from bondage to mens’ laws because He has placed His own law in our hearts. For this to happen, things must get a little messy first. Stuff gets torn down. Garbage gets revealed in the dark corners and thrown out. Sometimes we have to get down to the very foundation and rebuild. God knows what He is doing.
As for the people involved (especially the innocent), this is a very rough time for them. The illusion is being shattered. Disillusionment is one of the toughest experiences to deal with. Trust is broken, trust that isn’t easily repaired. Maybe we can help the brethren who will be mourning. I am setting aside my whole week to focus my prayers on the saints at Metro Life. Good can come from this for the whole sgm organization. Revelation can come suddenly. Isn’t it in our hearts to see the Lord reveal Himself to all involved, those who have left, those who have stayed, Pastors and sons, those sinned against? I am praying for it to be so. God can fix anything.
For those who have left Metro Life, there are some very wise people here who have been “out” for a while. They can help. You are not alone. Praying for you…:)
One Foot,
Yes your right that was not clear, thanks for clearing it up. I normally don’t assume that people who are not close to the people involved have more information than I do. I think I can assume correctly that you are not involved because you wouldnt be spreading false information if you were. Firstly I am sure that BP and DJ would gladly comment about it and will when the time comes. The statment made by MN sunday was short and was made by MN as and apology and an announcement that his son was leaving and that we should all be praying for him. Which was nessesary to qwell the thinking that there is any kind of cover up. Timing is not the issue.
Secondly, I am sure BP knows about the “skeletons” from his past because it is in fact his past. I infact also know about all the “skeletons” of BP’s family history (contrary to yet another assumption based on unfounded information), knowing about these things comes with being close to the true source. I would have to say that I know more than you do in regards to this matter. Because if you did know everything that I do then you would not be making these statments. What you know comes from another party and is very likley third hand information. Which should not be made public.
Thirdly, when you say that MN’s decision to step down for a time was NOT voluntary is (again) false information that cannot have been attained from a true source(MN). If you would like I can email you a written statment from MN that verifiys that what you say is false and his leave of absence was the right thing to do and he agrees with it. What its most important is the wellbeing of MN’s son and the biblical way to handle the situation. THAT is what was takin into account when making the decision not the poltics of church status.
Ian,
Email it to me. I won’t post it here, but will read it and then clear the matter up.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Ian,
How can you say that timing was not an issue? Why did Metro wait until the absolute last minute to let their congregation know of issues that obviously required MN to step down? The other church let their congregation know at the earliest time frame possible. I have to disagree with you in that area. (a little off subject….were you able to stop by and say your goodbyes to MN’s son before he left? wasn’t his car packed?!)
As for BP and his skeletons, I never mentioned his PAST. I was referring to very recent events. Which, if you knew all his info, you would know what I’m referring to. Are you the only person who has a close relationship with the family? My info is not 3rd party, I assure you. You are only a young man yourself, so maybe they feel that you couldn’t handle all the information. That would be logical since they handle the church the same way.
Go ahead and email that statement over to Jim. Agreeing with something (after being in a meeting with the big wigs breathing down your throat about how something is going to be) and volunteering for something is completely different. You are still young, and in time, as you experience life, I know that you will see how things can seem one way but are actually another.
What PK said…
Ian-still checking my email. We can clear this up quickly.
The church decides. Obeying Scripture is not legalism.
I don’t think I’ve commented on this subject yet. Have kept pretty quiet in direct regard to it. I also don’t think anyone has expressed what I have been thinking either. Not at all. But the details of that I still want to keep to myself for a bit. But I do now feel I want to respond to what PK said.
PK said, “Just please consider that this is how God moves men when their leadership season is over.”
PK, I have considered this for the past 23 years. I believe God can use anything as He sees fit. And I’ve seen Him use the darndest things.
But I don’t believe that just because something happens, therefore it is God at work or it is the Lord’s will. I don’t believe that if one man (any man, it doesn’t have to be this situation) were to step down as leader, that that necessarily means God wanted Him to step down. I believe all day, every day, we humans sin. And as a result, other people suffer from it.
Now, I’m not saying that God doesn’t want MN (whoever the heck he is, I don’t really care. I mean, it’s not that I don’t care for him and his family and the church down there, I just mean to say that this is merely an example that I am using to ask PK for clarification… wehre was I?) to step down right now. I’m not saying He does. I’m not saying that this might not be really good timing to give this man and this family care. I’m not saying it is.
But what I think I hear you saying is that because this man has stepped down (whether because he was asked to or chose to) that this must then be God’s way of doing it or rather, that this must be a clear indication that God is saying this man’s timing is over for a season. Am I interpreting this correctly?
If so, are you also saying that we shouldn’t be disturbed for how this is handled, for, after all, this is God’s will and His work? I hope I didn’t come across snarky or sarcastic when I ask this question. I can see how it could be thought so but I am really asking. I have heard this kind of a statement being made in my old SGM church. A kind of “well, God allowed us to do this bad thing therefore you should accept it as his will or he wouldn’t have allowed it to happen”.
I am not sure where I come down on this at all times- God’s sovereignty verses man’s fallen nature- does he allow or does he ordain? Does He sit and weep or does He say, “why are you upset? I let it happen so you should accept it or recognize it as my best for your life.” And frankly, I think anyone who thinks they know they answer to this beyond a shadow of a doubt, must be an untrustworthy fool. (To think we can begin to understand the mind of God- crazy mixed with arrogance.) But I do know I’m not about to say, “Gee, I’m not upset about you doing something really bad to another person because, after all, God let it happen so it can be that bad.”
Like I said, I’m not sure if that’s where you’re coming from. If just doesn’t seem to fit the character of what I have known from you in the past. But it sounded like that to me, and I’d like to know if I’m way off or not. (Please, please, please let me know I’m way off!)
And speaking of you, I had no idea you and the missus left. I’m so sorry for the pain I am sure you are both experiencing. It’s like living very happily on top of a plate that is on top of a tall stick. Your worlds are spinning around and all seems fine until things start to wobble. Just a tiny little bit. Things feel off kilter and you can’t figure out why. Then things start to shake. And tremble. And tilt. (The tilting is the worst part because then things around you start to fall and break and smash.) It is scary. Then finally, when it’s time to leave, the plate finally begins to fall off the tall stick. It is scary and disorienting as you start to slip off. But at the same time, it’s liberating. At least you’re not trying to reach out and grab everything and hold it in place any more. You know that there are lots of things to let go of. And only one thing left to hold on to. Or some one. You fall and you fall and you fall. And you wonder if you’re ever going to stop falling. You wonder if you’re going to hit bottom and how hard it’s going to be when you do. But at least you start to see that when you were on that plate and the earth below you was shifting, that it was not you who was crazy. That things really were tilting and moving and you were really seeing things begin to fall and the spinning really was real and it really was slowing down and finally, for the first time in forever you being to see things off the plate, things that were outside of your world, in a different light. They were no longer just images that were swirling by and making impressions of light and dark. They turned out to be real. Real things. Held into place, permanent and stable, while your own world had been spinning. And this knowledge, it is good, even as they are now hurtling past you as you fall.
And one day you will land. I don’t know what that feels like. I am still waiting for it to happen. I just know it’s good to not be on the plate any longer. It feels good to know that the things that have fallen aren’t as important as the one who holds me in the palm of his hand, even though I fall, even though I stumble. It’s good to know that there isn’t so much a great big spirit behind the curtain as much as a little man. It’s good to have truth revealed. Here. Other sites. Outside the walls of our homes and churches.
It’s good to know life still goes on, even when it feels like ours has stopped. If for a while.
Stunned, sometimes you can be so eloquent yet so simple in how you state your thoughts:
And one day you will land. I don’t know what that feels like. I am still waiting for it to happen. I just know it’s good to not be on the plate any longer. It feels good to know that the things that have fallen aren’t as important as the one who holds me in the palm of his hand, even though I fall, even though I stumble.
This is exactly how it feels to suffer disillusionment and yet find the Lord through it. Well said!
David was a part of a covenant that has passed away, being replace with a new and better covenant. David has nothing to do with this conversation.
My thinking on the church deciding comes from my on peculiar view.
I don’t think that Timothy blew into town, found some yes men, and laid hands on them. I think that in any Christian community, everyone knows who the elders are. I think Timothy made it official in Ephesus.
Please note the “I think”. This is a matter of personal opinion. We just don’t know. For all we know, the Christians in Ephesus did vote, but an elder had to lay hands on an elder to make it official. We just don’t know.
What we do know, is that they qualifications for elders/overseers are clear. Do you honestly think that Paul had a separate criteria for different regions?
Franklin Graham is the man!
There, now I can get the email updates from this thread. I need to get an RSS viewer for my BlackBerry. :-/
Josh
Real smart phone! That could only have come from a man with an iPhone.
It is kind of off topic but what sadly happened with both of these show again that the “courtship” /”kissing dating” goodbye model isn’t nearly as perfect as some will make it out to be. I am assuming that both of these couples met and married under the “courtship” model vs. the traditional dating model.
This is just another thought that came to my mind here.
Josh, that would be correct, although an Android would qualify. Maybe moreso.
Everyone:
I will probably be accused of not having a “grace-filled” position on this, but oh well, and here goes nothing:
Just so everyone knows where I stand on the whole Qualifications for Leaders thing (particulalrly how it relates to the children), I tend to fall on Jim’s side of the fence. There is a Covenantal element that must be brought into this discussion if one uses David as an example. God’s raising and lowering of David-and any OT leader for that matter-is done specifically for His glory first, and not so we can make bullet points and checklists on what leaders can get away with, when the reverse is true. God spells it out in the NT, and as simplistic as this answer sounds, I don’t make the guidelines and rules…God did through Paul.
Many times I think a leader has a specific time God wants them to lead, and God can even use the misbehavior of a leader’s children as a loud and clear message to the leader: you’re done. Messages like this do not require a burning bush or even a 2″x4″ with the words burned into it and whalloped upside our heads. Take the misbehavior of your child for what it is at that moment God is speaking to you: you’re done leading.
What is so difficult with that? Can we not have a wider view that maybe God has something else for MN that requires him to be up and out from Metro, let alone out of the picture for six months? I know a lot of emotions and feelers are frayed on this, but trust that same God who raised and lowered kings of Israel to know what He’s doing.
I spoke with an ex-SGM pastor not long ago, and he reminded me that “there comes a time when you simply have to trust God in what He’s doing, no matter how much you feel wronged or on the side that is never listened to.”
I’m not saying don’t evaluate the offending leaders’ actions, particulalrly those who are in the business of raising and lowering. Test everything, hold fast to that which is good. Be the Berean you are supposed to be. Hit them with 50lb. ESV study Bible every time you feel they are trampling on the Gospel. If a brother or sister in Christ is wronged, defend them with everything you have, preaching the truth in love to the offending party.
Just please consider that this is how God moves men when their leadership season is over. If we fight and fight for them, then I can’t really say it’s any different than getting mad and upset when a football team fires or loses my favorite QB. I’ve lost sight of God at that point, and my church is no better than a professional sports team.
God does millions of things when He removes men, or lowers them…and we only see two or three things if we’re lucky…er, blessed and priviledged to know.
Amen.
Soooooooooooooooooo
Metrooooooooooooooooooo
………………………………………………..
You know, I had always taken for granted that managing your household well meant exactly what I thought it meant. Then after reading one of the earlier posts where the scripture is actually quoted I realized that it didn’t say what I always thought it had said. Not at all. Oh my gosh.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for speaking God’s word. Not an interpretation of it, not an expository of it, but merely God’s word. I wonder if that’s the power to set free, to heal, to save. In His word. Just seeing HIS word, without tying all the other assumptions into it.
Now I do wonder what managing your household well means. Certainly it can’t mean that there won’t be sin or disobeidience or there wouldn’t be an elder left standing within 3 seconds of their family’s waking up each morning.
Also, what about when the kids in question are adults? That’s what I’m confused about. Should the father be punished for an adult offspring’s sins? If that is true, why is one parent remaining in his position why the other is asked to step down?
Billy Grahm’s son, as an adult, was a rebel for sometime. That did not keep Mr. Graham from continuing to preach the gospel as he prayed for his son’s soul. God was faithful to bring Franklin to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Good example to ponder on…
Canary-I think faithful children means just what it says. I don’t think adults are included, as that would kill the ‘household’ context.
Josh-you could get a real smart phone
BTW…Soooo Metroooo….
Whatcha thinkin’?
Jim- I do not think that I will be able to send you the email. If any member of Metro Life Church has true concerns that what is being said on this blog is acually true..my email is Flsurfer03@aol.com I will gladly share what I have with you ( this includes you One Foot In).
MN’s statement was in a personal email and was not meant to be used as a defense against anonymous attacks on Metro and its leadership. But for people( i need to know who your really are) who really do have concerns please email me.
One Foot- Ya I did see him before he left, we had lunch. And yes it was. Gona miss him a lot…..In regards to the skeletons I think the subject should just be dropped, not something that should be discussed on the internet. But I assuryou I am not being kept in the dark. Just trust me. I don’t believe I am the only close friend of the families but then again I am not attacking them online and I know a good friend would not do that.
Please email me if you want to see that email.
Thanks
Ian
Jim- I do not think that it would be wise to send you the email. If any member of Metro Life Church has true concerns that what is being said on this blog is acually true..my email is Flsurfer03@aol.com I will gladly share what I have with you ( this includes you One Foot In).
MN’s statement was in a personal email and was not meant to be used as a defense against anonymous attacks on Metro and its leadership. But for people( i need to know who your really are) who really do have concerns please email me.
One Foot- Ya I did see him before he left, we had lunch. And yes it was. Gona miss him a lot…..In regards to the skeletons I think the subject should just be dropped, not something that should be discussed on the internet. But I assuryou I am not being kept in the dark. Just trust me. I don’t believe I am the only close friend of the families but then again I am not attacking them online and I know a good friend would not do that.
Please email me if you want to see that email.
Thanks
Ian
Franklin Graham is the man!
Josh, he is such an amazing example of a parent’s earnest prayers for his adult offspring and the prodigal some coming home. I love it!
Canary-I think faithful children means just what it says. I don’t think adults are included, as that would kill the ‘household’ context.
Thanks, Jim. That sounds reasonable.
AS of today The pastors son has moved out of state to start his new life. THANK YOU GOD BLESS HIM RICHLY!
Several in the church got together to bless him finacially and give him and his fiancee a new start. Thats better than the fact that HOW many people laid hands on him to send him off on Sunday. Who was it? Any ore that was there want to enlighten the crowd?
So, my question would be, and maybe you know ONE FOOT, what family situation does MN have to stay home to deal with??? His ADULT son < repentant and humbled and glorifying God in this new season of his life> is gone. No more kids at home.
hey Ian-
I have concerns that what is being said on this blog is true.
Do what you like, but your actions and words haven’t bought you an ounce of credibility.
Hi Stunned:
First of all, please take my post as PK’s opinion/position, and remember that opinions and positions are like feet most times: we all have them, and they all stink. I’m certainly not saying that mine ever smell any better than anyone else’s. Yowza.
PK said, “Just please consider that this is how God moves men when their leadership season is over.”
Let me qualify that better, and I promise there’s no waffling or flip-flop: please consider that this is a way how God moves men when their leadership season is over.
But what I think I hear you saying is that because this man has stepped down (whether because he was asked to or chose to) that this must then be God’s way of doing it or rather, that this must be a clear indication that God is saying this man’s timing is over for a season. Am I interpreting this correctly?
No. But I do believe there are times when the indications are no so crystal clear, hence my burning bush and 2×4 analogy.
If so, are you also saying that we shouldn’t be disturbed for how this is handled, for, after all, this is God’s will and His work?
No. I quote myself: “I’m not saying don’t evaluate the offending leaders’ actions, particularly those who are in the business of raising and lowering. Test everything, hold fast to that which is good. Be the Berean you are supposed to be. Hit them with 50lb. ESV study Bible every time you feel they are trampling on the Gospel. If a brother or sister in Christ is wronged, defend them with everything you have, preaching the truth in love to the offending party.” The offending leader(s) in this case, Stunned, would be those who are doing the removing/lowering.
I am not sure where I come down on this at all times- God’s sovereignty verses man’s fallen nature- does he allow or does he ordain? Does He sit and weep or does He say, “why are you upset? I let it happen so you should accept it or recognize it as my best for your life.” And frankly, I think anyone who thinks they know they answer to this beyond a shadow of a doubt, must be an untrustworthy fool.
I think in your illustrations, that quite frankly God can do both. To limit Him or to sit motionless and let things happen…well, both are wrong. We do His will according to scripture and how He reveals Himself through His Spirit in our lives, and we trust Him with those situations that seem to be wrong and out of our control even after our best efforts at charity and defense of His Gospel can’t seem to rectify these situations in the natural. Make any sense? I promise I am not trying to oversimplify it. Icertainly don’t know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, but on some days–especially when I have not had my coffee before 8am–I am an untrustworthy fool.
Stunned, I hope some of this made sense. At times I have been known to strain gnat droppings out of pepper, and I pray I haven’t done that here.
All of you out there who are closer to the Metro situation certainly have a clearer view than me to the situation. Let scripture and God’s Spirit capture your conscience and guide you, then go with that conscience in whatever you decide to do. It was something I had to do of late, and God never fails. His word has been a lamp unto my (stinky) feet and PD’s better-smelling feet.
Right now I am under the conviction to do nothing more than do minister peace and encouragement to you. Go with Christ, and know that PD and I are praying.
In Christ,
–pk
Soooooo Metroooooo…….
Is anyone meeting with their pastors this week?
How’s that new transparency thing going?
Ian - thanks for the offer to email the letter. However, I have no need to see it. You eluded to the fact that a good friend wouldn’t be saying things on this blog. I am very close to these people, and I can say whatever I want in this blog regarding how I feel. Rest assured that all my concerns I have addressed with those involved. Glad you were able to say your goodbyes. Hope he’s able to make that long trip safely.
Debutant – yes, he has left to start over and believe me, both he and his fiance are relieved they wont be at ML going through this. They have many challenges ahead of them, but they will be fine with the love and support from family and friends. You bring up a good point about no other kids in the house, so who is MN going to ‘care for’? Glad you caught that. Not everyone at Metro is that insightful, they just keep drinkin….
Metro People,
For any of you out there reading here and not posting— Will you be thinking about HOW the “Family Meeting” was handled—- in regards to the very public declarations (of said pastors and sons, etc etc) ..during a Sunday morning meeting—attended by members, children of all ages, and visitors (who were uncomfortably shocked, I’m Sure)????????
The decision of your leaders to do so is appalling——- I pray you will lift your voices loud and clear about this.—— As my Kentucky dad would say— “those ‘ol boys are showin’ less sense than an outhouse rat.”
Also, another thought—- of course instructions are in place for no one to communicate via blogging, facebook, twitter etc etc——-but really— did they honestly think that wouldNOT happen??? And if they realistically realized that could possibly happen —– why would they continue with such a decision??? What a tangled mess….
One Foot In
June 10th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
“You bring up a good point about no other kids in the house, so who is MN going to ‘care for’? Glad you caught that. Not everyone at Metro is that insightful, they just keep drinkin….”
Yeah, that is one point everyone seems to miss. All of MN’s kids ARE OUT OF THE HOUSE . JN was the last one. So if they were such lousy, lazy parents why is the rest of the clan < the other 3 adult children>turn out just fine? IF there is this pattern in their lives of laziness and poor parenting, wouldn’t all the kids be a mess. Food for thought guys. And why now? If DJ and BP have seen this for years why now? Why not years ago if this has been so ongoing?
IAN I am quite aware of the letter. Seen it, and if you know anything about Todd, many things get pushed for the cause of not dividing the church at a pastoral level. Some of you that have been through the process can elaborate on that. When you get older you will understand how all this works. I am grateful that the N family embraces the Sovereignty of God in all things even this.
As parents < I am the parent of a child that walked away so I get this> we pray God use what you will, to wake up my children to deepen their walk and love for you. For those who are in the know, and ONE FOOT I know you are close to the family, you know what God has done through all of this already in their sons life- stuff that could not have happened any other way. God has used it to rescue, knit, envision, humble and save. I love how God rescues us from ourselves and our sin! What a love!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The situation is ugly to us from afar. Personally it tics me off because most of us here have gone through our own perssonally pain with our SGM /PDI experience. The EX SGM pastors that blog here know what all this really means and I do hope for MN this plays out way different than it has in other SGM churches.
Again as I have been praying for the family.The recounting of Joesph and his brothers in Genesis hasn’t left my heart. I read it again last night to try and wrap my head around the bigger picture.
If we had be the audience that watched the brothers setting him up for their own gain, Joesph hitting the pit, all the way to him being wrongfully jailed- in a modern day sense- this blog would be packed with us screaming INJUSTCE. I would be screaming!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet God knew the end game. M&L N are looking at God’s faithfulness in the past, now, and the end game. What is going on now stinks and God will expose what is really going on behind the scenes. My hope is that God will use MN , the humble servant that he is, to break the sin that existing in the leadership team. That LN will feel God’s presence as they walk through this season and embrace her in her pain. God give them strength as a couple. Everyone’s prayers here have not, and will not go to waste!
ONE FOOT, I do not know if you caught this at all on Sunday, but the coldness that Danny showed towards MN after he spoke, complete with MN reaching out towards Danny and his parental response of ” you can sit down now”< Don’t you hate when Mr Microphone gets left on?> tells a tale. Danny was embraced and people were in tears after DJ had to expose his son’s sin. He wouldn’t even hug MN after he spoke? Is that all true ONE FOOT???????
JN.. who stood over him, prayed for him in his departing that Sunday?
PK said, “Let me qualify that better, and I promise there’s no waffling or flip-flop: please consider that this is a way how God moves men when their leadership season is over.”
AWESOME! That is exactly what I was wondering and sort of the sticking point for me. I am in complete agreement with you on this. Now I’ll go back up and read the rest of what you said.
PK also said, “No. But I do believe there are times when the indications are no so crystal clear, hence my burning bush and 2×4 analogy.”
Complete agreement again.
OK, I’m done reading it all. Thank you for clarifying your thoughts for me. They sound much more like the PK I know. (That’s a good thing.) It all made sense and if I ever have gnat droppings in anything I am about to eat, I really hope someone gets them out of my food.
You and PD are in our prayers. Let us know if there is anyway we can be praying as I am sure what you are currently going through is representative of what many others who visit here but are too weary to post are feeling.
God bless to all the MLers out there as well as to those who come to read.
Stunned
“…yes, he has left to start over and believe me, both he and his fiance are relieved they wont be at ML going through this. They have many challenges ahead of them, but they will be fine with the love and support from family and friends.”
Praise God!
Trust me, the guilt from the weight of their past sin is tremendous – the couple with the “scarlet letter.” The last thing they need is to be in a church where folks don’t support them. (And yes, I know there are those who DO genuinely care about them. Sad that there’s so few.)
Who wants to be in a church where the smiles and “how are you’s” are those phony, pious, smug ones? You know the ones I’m talking about. You know the looks they give you. (Makes me want to vomit.)
No, what I’d REALLY love to do is have a hidden camera set up in their own homes, have a public showing, and then ask if they’d still like to continue participating in the ”local” stonings.
John 8
1but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2(A) Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and(B) he sat down and taught them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Now(C) in the Law Moses commanded us(D) to stone such women. So what do you say?” 6This they said(E) to test him,(F) that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, (G) “Let him who is without sin among you(H) be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, (I) “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on(J) sin no more.”]]
I’ll be praying for the couple. Wish I was there to give them a bridal shower.
No one at MLC is looking to throw any stones at JN or my sister-in-law, folks. And if they were, they would have to get the stones past my wife and me.
Josh
Good for you, Josh! (And good on your wife, too.)
That’s good to hear, Josh.
Seriously, I was getting ready to tap into my “sources” and hunt some people down.
I know human nature well enough to know there are some “stone throwers” in the crowd. Glad to hear you’re protecting them.
Unfortunately, my personal experience with SGM folks would indicate that many of them LOVE to throw stones (or at least one of those smug little looks.)
This question comes from yesterday’s discussion about what constitutes a man being a poor manager of his home. Or rather how do we define it and what serves as qualifications to disqualify the man from leadership in the church?
As a quick reminder:
Titus 1:6 (New International Version) 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
1 Timothy 3:4 (New International Version) 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
How about we move away from ML for a bit and onto another scenario? I’d like to know what you think, especially Jim and PK. Not that I value anyone else’s opinion any less but this particular post was sparked by things they each wrote yesterday. There are a few questions per scenario so sometimes in that case I jot my answers down as I go. That way I can make sure I’ve answered most things. (Only if that’s what you want to do, I mean.)
Scenario #1: A man’s daughter gets pregnant. She is an unwed teenager and living at home. Does her father have to step down from leadership in the church? Is this not a clear situation of her sinning? (I’d really appreciate it if you’d answer this one question specifically, either in your head now or in writing. Is this not a clear situation of her sinning?) Is it not clearly fruit or a clear indication that he has not been leading or managing his family well?
How about we expand this scenario a little?
Scenario #2: A man’s unwed, teenage daughter is raped and she becomes pregnant. Does he have to step down from leadership in the church because she got raped? Please answer. I’m not trying to be argumentative or obstinate here. Real situation. Real question.
Let’s change it a bit more.
Scenario #3: She got raped by the boy/man she knew very well. He was, also, a professing Christian. Now does her father have to step down now or does he stay on board? Is he managing his family poorly in this situation? Is he possibly at fault for not protecting his daughter better? Not being with her 24/7 to make sure that never happens to her?
Scenario #4: Now let’s say she doesn’t know it’s rape because in her mind rape is only rape if it’s a stranger that jumps out of the bushes to grab you. So she never tells anyone what happened. After all, she knows better than to kiss and tell. That would be wrong. And as at 16 she doesn’t have the maturity to distinguish the more subtle meaning of “Don’t kiss and tell”, she doesn’t discuss the details of the sexual encounter with anyone. She only strives to do what is right. Does that father step down or does he continue in his leadership role in the church? Again, is he managing his family poorly in this situation or not? Is he at fault and disqualified for church leadership because it has never crossed his mind to explain the definition of rape to his 16 year old daughter? What if this scenario happened at another time in history, where it would have been considered horrible parenting to bring a matter up to your 16 year old daughter?
Scenario #5: How about if she decided to marry the boy/man? She has been brought up to believe that once you have intercourse with someone, then in God’s sight you are married. Ever since she had known the boy, he had always wanted to marry her and claimed to love her. He was a Christian who was actively involved in their bible study and church and evangelism. Add on to it that now she is pregnant and everyone had always said that it was “right” to get married if you get pregnant. How about then? Did the father not manage his household well in this case? Where exactly did the father err here?
What can be said of this man? Did he not manage his own family well? (I Tim. 3:4) Did his children obey him with proper respect? (I Tim again.) Did his children believe? (Titus, my man.) Are his children wild and disobedient? Are his children not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient? (Titus- NIV. And on that point, if “being open to a charge” is simply that someone can bring a charge, true or false, then we all are open to that. But if it means what ______ has written about it being a constant state or habitual disorderliness as a general practice, was this daughter in a constant state of outrageous conduct? )
It seems to me, that the father managed his household well in each of those cases. I see no neglect on his part, though someone else may see something that I am missing. I see no mismanagement. If anything, this father taught his daughter well. Protected her innocence in regard to not exposing her to too much (thus her not knowing enough about rape to be able to discern what happened to her and alert anyone). He taught her well. She desired above all else to serve the Lord, obeying Jesus and her family in all things. How had she not submitted to her father’s authority/rule? Her heart was pure as she strove (strived? she did striven?) to do what was right no matter the consequences to her. Was this somehow an indication of lack of character on her father’s part? If anything, I’d say he did an incredible job creating a daughter like this.
So which of these situations represents a case of a father not being a good manager of his household?
Thank you for taking the time to read if you got this far. I hope you’ll consider this and respond.
I’m curious.
We agree to not throw stones at the ones who sinned. Right? (I would hope so.)
What about throwing stones at the sinner’s parents?
Fair Game?
Isn’t that a sneaky way to get digs in?
Unless the parent is an …………… Apostle. ??
Sin Alert!
Shield’s up!
Fire the rock cannons!
Evasive maneuvers!
(Somebody call in CJ for damage control!)
Film at eleven.
Oh the hypocrisy!
Good grief.
I’ve never heard such obssessive navel gazing and stone throwing in my life.
Do I get the situation correct: an engaged couple had sex. The father of the adult young man involved was let go from the pastorate because of this?
Why didn’t he just haul the couple down to the courthouse and get them hitched, cancel the wedding, and carry on with ministry? His son sinned, but this can be redeemed.
Why the obssession with premarital sex in SGM? Is it a sin. ABSOLUTELY. Is it redeemable? You betcha. Is it the father’s faulty? For an adult son’s fall? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?
This happened in our last church. Adult daughter this time. She got pregnant. Got married. But here was the weird part: she had a chuch ceremony complete with dress and lavish reception and lots of gifts.
Now THAT is weird.
What’s weird about many SGM kids (trust me on this one, I teach them) is that they easily break covenant with God: they download songs illegally (breaking commandment eight) and have ABSOLUTELY no problem with it, nor do their parents. They cheat on tests, (breaking commandments 8 and 9 and 10) with impunity. But they won’t sit next to each other on a couch, unless their parents aren’t around, then they’re all over each other like white on rice.
Where is grace and mercy in this? Why the public humiliation?
You really don’t believe that the elder injunctions imply CHILDREN at HOME? The brood of hellions who rebell as a way of life?
You really think it means a believing adult son of a pastor, who has raised other mature believing kids, who fell into the same sin that most of the pastors on staff and on up the SGM food chain fell into–going too far sexually with a finace(e)?
Look to your house, SGM. Observe your loss of youth. Your youth are leaving, and are not engaging with other congregations. They are repulsed by your legalism and silliness. Rome is burning. Put down those damned fiddles of legalism, and apply yourselves to grace and restoration.
Pride goes before a fall. Watch your steps, my pastor-brethren. God does not like abuse of his beloved children.
PRAYER AND WISDOM REQUEST:
And yes, y’all, this is DIRECTLY related to the Metro situation, since it involved a pastoral situation.
I’ll be spending a couple of days around a fabulous young man, 24, married, who is an ardent SGMer–Maryland crowd.
He comes from a missionary family, and we argue incessantly over SGM’s mission position.
He is planning to attend the wonderful eight month PASTORS COLLEGE soon.
Help. Advice? Any brother want to be willing to talk to him, if he is willing to contact you? Irv? Jim? PK? FSGP?
Thanks, y’all.
“Hey, I’m having a big party at my house and you all are invited (haha, Stunned is *actually* invited) if the rest of you lived close enough you could come, too.”
Party? Did someone say party??
I’m close…. did you set a date yet?
I have had the opportunity and privilege of having friendships with people in this church and leadership and have attended before. I am not a member there because I have been involved in my church my entire life and have no reason to leave. But I have had an entirely different experience than the accusations being made. I have made mistakes and was treated with grace and sought guidance and did not receive smug looks there.
I am confused/surprised by the comments of hypocrisy and stone throwing. Is that not exactly what the majority of comments have been so far? If you are not involved in this local church why is it necessary to criticize the leaders and church as a whole? For those you are involved and discouraged then leave with a conviction of that this something you can no longer be involved in. Yes, I am aware of the “this might not be the church for you” phrase. If you are going to stick with it, then stick with it. Look for ways to serve your church, pray without ceasing for your leaders don’t attempt to humiliate (throw stones) them on a blog. Yes, there are things that need to be addressed and changed. But if you truly care for this church, what are you doing for it rather than saying? The fact is that these are your brothers and sisters in Christ with who you will be worshipping our Savior with in heaven. If you honestly believe the leaders of this church are committing these alleged sins then let God be the judge. He will pay accordingly, it is not our place. It is ONLY BY GOD’S GRACE that I have not done some of the things being referred to on this post. Who am I to passed judgement on someone who has?
I don’t see them as “apostles” or ”pastors” but sinful men, like us, who I truly believe are doing what they believe is the best thing to glorify God in the church. Messy as it is at times.These men are sinners, but I would not doubt their salvation. Why not spend this time then to seek those who are truly lost, get involved in all our local churches more, and pray for those churches who are walking through difficult times rather than slander them? I don’t plan on posting again and don’t mean to start any circular argument. It bothers me when I read comments from everyone that these pastors preach some scripture and ignore others that don’t back them up. That is what I have seen here. Everyone is very knowledgeable and quotes scripture which is great but seems to ignore the passages on creating dissension among believers, passing judgement on others, and gossip. I apologize if any of my comments were seen as an attack.
“I have concerns that what is being said on this blog is true. Do what you like, but your actions and words haven’t bought you an ounce of credibility.”
Jim,
I am sorry that you that my information is not credible, but just because you don’t have it doesn’t mean that it is not. You are not a member of Metro so this information should not concern you. I also do not feel that I need any credibility on a blog where most are anonymous. The very fact that people make anonymous posts voids any credibility.
The last thing they need is to be in a church where folks don’t support them. (And yes, I know there are those who DO genuinely care about them. Sad that there’s so few.) Who wants to be in a church where the smiles and “how are you’s” are those phony, pious, smug ones? You know the ones I’m talking about. You know the looks they give you. (Makes me want to vomit.) No, what I’d REALLY love to do is have a hidden camera set up in their own homes, have a public showing, and then ask if they’d still like to continue participating in the ”local” stonings.
Jim this post above by Kindred Spirit is a great example of false and non-credible information.
KS-I would have to agree with Josh that there is nobody at Metro throwing stones at JN and VM. And this post by Kindred spirit is in fact a contradiction, posting false information about the way they are being treated and talking about their lives on a public blog is what I would call a “public showing” and “throwing stones”. You really think that JN wanted to leave Metro? You actually think that he wasn’t supported at Metro? How many times must it be said do not make ungrounded, defaming statements about something you know nothing about. JN would not agree with one thing said on here about how Metro has responded to his situation.
“Ellie! I love your hugs…”
Canary, here’s one just for you. {{{{{{{{{{{ (*v*) }}}}}}}}}}}}}
As someone who is a member of MLC and has some concerns that I am working through (otherwise I would not be here on the blog!), I have to agree with Ian’s comments regarding slanderous, unfounded assertions. It is easy to forget the stated purpose of this blog is to reform SGM, not bring it down into ruin and we forget our biblical calling to speak redemptively when we do so. It would be very helpful if those types comments were not here as they detract from any attempt to be godly as we work through these issues and de-legitimize the things said by those who are trying to do so because it can then be easy to lump everyone into the same bunch.
Ian said, “Jim, …You are not a member of Metro so this information should not concern you.”
Hi Ian, I’m not too sure where you heard this from, but in my opinion, that is a silly “rule” or thinking. We are members of one and the same body. What affects Metro affects us all. You can’t carve up the body of Christ into little sub-sets and say that what happens to one doesn’t affect the rest. I’m sorry for what’s going on there, and I can’t begin to claim I have a clue what’s going on. From what I can tell there is a bunch of pain and love in that place. And if it’s like any other body of believers, I bet the pain and love, the care and confusion are all rolled up into one big ball. But I had to write to say I think that the above statement is a very limited view of the church and that what affects us this deeply, affects more than just us. Would you please consider this even though it’s coming from an old lady you’ve never met?
I also do not feel that I need any credibility on a blog where most are anonymous.
That’s OK. You don’t need any credibility. It’s just that people may not believe you as much without it. And since you said you had proof of something, then didn’t send it to Jim for his personal perusal but then you said that you would send it to people for their personal perusal…well, you may not have meant to come off that way, but can you see how maybe it comes across as not being true when you say you have it but won’t share it with Jim but you offer to with others? Maybe it’s just a misunderstanding, though. Jim would never share it if he gave his word not to. But maybe there’s more between you two in the background that I don’t see.
The very fact that people make anonymous posts voids any credibility.
I’m sorry, brother, but where the heck did you learn your logic? Anonymity voids credibility? So Deep Throat was wrong about Water Gate because we didn’t know his identity until a couple of years ago? No, that is horrible logic and can’t stand on its own. I’m sorry, I’m not out to get you. I’m really not. I love your passion. (I find boring people, well… boring.) I like that you came on here and want to say something on behalf of the truth as you see it. That is truly awesome on so many levels. I don’t want to discourage that at all. Keep it up, Brother. Really. I’d just like you to consider a few of the statements, that’s all. I’m hoping I don’t make you feel too picked on. Just the fact that you came on here at all was a bit courageous in my book. But since you did, I also get the feeling you can handle me asking you these questions and having a bit of a discussion with you about them.
KS-I would have to agree with Josh that there is nobody at Metro throwing stones at JN and VM.
I really do believe you haven’t encountered anything like this and that is AWESOME. I don’t think you’re lying at all and I believe that in this situation you’re not seeing ANYONE throwing stones. I hope this couple (or anyone) never encounters it, either. For this news of your and Josh’s (above) I am so glad. And I am glad that they have friends like you and Josh to step to their defense, should that ever happen. Truly. We all need friends like that. I think it is perfectly appropriate and healthy to have someone take up an offense given to another at times. (Protecting the Jews from Hitler, for example. Or friends being gossiped about or condemned. You’re a good friend in this way and I hope you continue to be forever.) May I suggest that to be fair, no one knows what is going on in the hearts of each and every individual in any church, so it could be possible that some are judging and throwing stones. Is there any chance that you could agree with that.? (Not that I care one way or other. We’re a bunch of sinners and sin all day long so can’t imagine I or anyone else is above throwing stones. Heck, some days it seems I have a permanent crease in my pocket from all the rocks I’ve been carrying around, ready to launch in a moment’s notice.) I’m not asking you this question to “set you up” for something else I’m going to say. I’m only suggesting it because you seem so pedantic in your insistence that “nobody” is throwing stones and I think it’s healthy for all of us to recognize this is possible in any situation, whether we see it or not. (But it would be awesome if that “nobody” is 100% correct!)
And this post by Kindred spirit is in fact a contradiction, posting false information about the way they are being treated and talking about their lives on a public blog is what I would call a “public showing” and “throwing stones”.
I hear what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. Would it help if I told you that when I read it, I thought I was reading her opinion and speculation about a situation that may be happening in some homes? I’m not saying that that is what she meant. Probably what she has experienced. I dont’ know. Only she can clear it up. But I just wanted you to know that not everyone is viewing it as her making a statement of fact as you seem to be and I suspect I’m not the only one who read it as merely her opinion. If you go back and re-read it, you may find that she didn’t claim it as a fact whatsoever. (though I could be reading it in a sloppy manner. AKS, can you please clear this up for us?)
How many times must it be said do not make ungrounded, defaming statements about something you know nothing about.
I’d imagine til we’re all dead. I know I do it waaaaaaaayyyy too often. I’m guessing you and everyone else here does, too. (Except for those who are super quiet and never speak. Oh, to have that gift! The sins I would avoid! Or at least the sins I wouldn’t expose!) Yeah, I’m afraid we’re going to have to keep preaching that one to ourselves until the last man or woman on earth dies. It’s such a good statement to be reminded of. Thank you. In fact, I think if you read above to one of my earlier comments from this morning, you’ll see a whole bunch of scenarios where people may be “speaking into a situation” that they really could never know the truth about. Ugh, so frustrating. Even more so that I probably do it all day. Fortuantely I have this wonderful best friend who calls me on it.
Example:
Me: I can’t believe what Monica Lewinsky did! (in my genuinely sad and greived voice)
Her: I’d do it in a minute if I had a chance! Do you really think I’m better than her? (reminding me that I’m no better than her either. I’m just dillusional/stupid enough to think I am!)
Anonymous Commenter, thank you for that reminder. It was beautifully stated.
I will continue to pray for you and your church. It is such an agonizing time for all of you, I am sure. Please let us know if we can do anything for you.
Just remember this if nothing else, Jesus loves you.
Stunned
Beloved:
This is not my regular form, nor do I plan on making it so. But the fire of John the Baptist just exploded in my heart.
Put your seat belt on. I promise to attempt to preach the truth in love. But, as James Dobson has aptly noted, “love must be tough.”
I won’t pretend to speak a moment for Jim (and Jim please clear anything up if you feel I am misrepresenting you when I pretend to present where you are coming from), but there is a much larger issue here than putting men women and leaders under the microscope.
That issue is that Sovereign Grace Ministries does not treat leaders squarely, evenly, and fairly across the board. If you want to get specifically scriptural about it, they do not treat leaders justly; rather there is an exhibition of corporate USA behavior in their actions. What it ends up coming across as is cronyism, favoritism, and status protection with a thick and cracking coat of politics. Yes, we can have a cynical view that all denoms, orgs, families and whatnot have this, but there is a degree of it in SGM that is near maddening to contemplate, and that among other things is the source of blogs like this and not disaffected Christians. How much more does it need to be displayed and lain out? Do we never strive for purity in the church because of grade-school level offenses regarding the really bad things people said about us? For crying out loud, does “sticks and stones” ring a bell, even the one in the church tower? That ditty shows more maturity than the whole “you’re mean!” attitude.
Jim’s whole point is that there is abundant and stinking hypocrisy going on in the same place–and it doesn’t matter where—when similar, not identical, but similar situations are going on with leaders/pastors and leaders/pastors’ kids, and one leader continues to enjoy the protection of his job while the other’s job is in serious peril. This is WRONG, and it’s only the tip of the iceberg.
And please, stop the whole “you’re not here, you don’t know, this is gossip, etc etc etc.” Grow up. This is the church universal, and planet earth is your local expression. God in heaven is dishonored when you look down your nose atop the roof of your church down on other churches and blogs who did all those mean things to you. The world is watching, and the selective treatment of men and the execrable and uneven favortism, de-gifting and general throwings-under-buses and politics being done week after week and month after month and year after year and decade after decade is far worse than this blog could ever hope to be in terms of what the saints see men doing each other. They’re tearing each other apart and you’re mad at the rubber band guns on the blogs. Don’t get upset because it turns out your laundry looks dingy compared to the neighbors, and don’t put the blogs in the same camp as as the worst of the dregs of hell with some of the descriptions I have seen here.
Also, if I had a nickel for every time we got a drive by with the “I don’t plan on posting again and don’t mean to start any circular argument,” type statements, I could fund and support missionaries indefinitely, and go sailing with all of the hot air from its non-commital windbreaking.
You don’t want me or anyone else to say mean and nasty things about your church? Men like Elijah, Isaiah and Jeremiah were in the business of saying mean and nasty things about entire nations and kingdoms, sometimes their own. Elijah telling the prophets of Baal to “scream louder,” because maybe Baal was taking too long on the can to hear them, springs to mind…and we are the beneficiaries of the tough love og these men to this day.
No, I ain’t no OT prophet. But I welcome getting schooled by them every moment of my life. And I can tell you the fire in my bones licks at my skeleton the same way it did Jeremiah’s. Repentance hasn’t even begun, fellas. Stop the whining and backslapping. The sheep are dying in your midst and you’re mad that someone shot a spitwad at your pastor to get his attention. The arrows haven’t even been unleashed yet.
Apologies to those whose eyebrows got singed. I know a good dermatologist, and better yet, I know a great God Who will reconstitute them one day in a way that will make all of this mewling seem really, really stupid.
In Christ because of Christ, and not the glad-handing, promotion and demotion of men,
–pk
Stunned-JN is (was) one of the young PK rock stars at MLC. A son of a highly respected pastor. I believe Ian when he says that there’s no stone throwing going on. FYI, Ian and I have no history that I’m aware of. If he knew me, he would know that I keep confidences.
Ian-you’ve put me in a situation that I ask our guests to avoid when referencing SGM pastors. I’m darned if I do, and darned if I don’t. Your issue with me (maybe among others), is that I allow unsubstantiated claims on the blog. This is correct. It’s a blog-the public square. I can’t fact check everything that everyone says. If I become aware that someone is not telling the truth, I deal with it. Others in SGM, up to some very high levels, help me to do this. If you don’t want to help, that’s your choice, but since you can do something about the situation and choose not to, stop your whining.
Jim, can you explain what you mean when you say that J was a PK rock star?
“I have an announcement. As of today, the last of my family members have departed from SGM! We all are free to go forward, grow and mature in Jesus, and hear him for ourselves. I am very grateful. ”
Gracie, I’m happy for you that you can now have full fellowship with all your family members. I hope all are doing well. Love you!
Ellie, Thank you for the hug. I will carry it with me all day!
PK – standing ovation for your latest post. Long ovation. A good, long five minutes of standing and clapping…bravo! Man, I wish I could have said it like you did. Keep our focus on the truth…
“PD and I have just recently left SGM after a total of 22+ years–while many know this behind the scenes, this is the first time I’ve revealed it publicly on the ‘fuge– in SGM churches. It’s not just hard to go through these situations and valleys of decision, it’s hell.”
Yep, sure is.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ PK & PD }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Irv, thanks for sharing from the personal angle. It’ s all so twisted, isn’t it? This Canary needs to surface for some fresh air, me thinks…
I’m reeling from the idea that the private business of an adult engaged couple was made public to two congregations. It’s between them and God, and perhaps anyone who was personally hurt or affected by the sin. Such sin generally does not directly affect anyone else until it becomes public. It’s possible that the congregation could have been personally hurt or affected by this, depending on their involvement, but I really don’t get why this is anybody else’s business, and particulary why any parents should be considered culpable. What a sad waste of a ministry’s time and energy. They’ve stopped preachin’ and gone to meddlin’.
My opinion — if someone in my church is fooling around with their fiance, or if they have financial difficulty, or if they get stopped for speeding, or if they have problems with lust, or porn, or whatever — it’s none of my business unless they somehow confess it to the church or me, or ask for help, prayer, etc., or if it becomes a matter of public record such as divorce, imprisonment, etc.
The case of the staff member is a different situation — clearly, there are deeds that disqualify people from certain positions. I think back about 25 years, when a highly visible, well-respected, reformed Christian ministry president confessed adultery. He said something to the effect that this had disqualified him from public ministry, in his thinking, for the rest of his life — that we would never hear of the resurrection of his ministry. And he has remained under the radar. But no doubt, God is still using him.
Given the culture in which many of us grew up, many current Christians previously engaged in premarital relations with an eventual spouse or another, whether or not they were Christians at the time. This is not to excuse anything that God clearly calls sin. But hey, if suddenly we were to demand that every Christian who put the marriage cart before the horse confess to the church and be disqualified from ministry, and then disqualify their parents as well, two things would happen.
1. There wouldn’t be enough time before Christ comes to hear all the confessions.
2. Every church in America would need new pastors, elders, deacons, worship bands, caregroup leaders, nursery workers, and on and on.
Another thought: How does this kind of sin-sniffing affect our willingness to receive non-Christians who are now cohabiting but stumble into our midst seeking God? I’ve heard a pastor talk about the challenge of ministering to young live-togethers. Many have already had serial live-in relationships and have no idea it’s contrary to God’s plan.
An elderly man once told me the reason his mother left her family’s church and joined the Methodists in the early 1900′s. She’d grown up in a ”washfoot Baptist” congregation. A young girl became pregnant out-of-wedlock. And on a Sunday morning, they called her up before the congregation, announced that she had sinned, condemned her, then escorted her down the aisle and out the front door of the church.
How far are we from that scenario? Not far, not far.
PK said: “Also, if I had a nickel for every time we got a drive by with the “I don’t plan on posting again and don’t mean to start any circular argument,” type statements, I could fund and support missionaries indefinitely, and go sailing with all of the hot air from its non-commital windbreaking.”
My brother, you are a freaking genius, and I dearly love you.
RT – Just saw your post way up there. If this young man feels in his heart this is what God wants him to do, he is going to do it. Saying, that I would be most happy to visit with him. You can contact me directly at irv911help@yahoo.com if you like!! Irv
Irv–your daughter should have hung in there. Two piece bathing suits without t-shirt are de riguer now, even used as FB status pics. No big deal.
Just wait long enough in SGM, stuff will change.
PK–again, excellent post. Watch your blood pressure, brother. We need you around.
PK – AMEN!! PREACH IT!!
The sad, tragic topic is hypocrisy displayed from the very top of a local church as being right and “biblical”.
Some of us have been praying for a sorrow and repentance from the top down for years and years.
Come Lord Jesus! Clear the tables!
Hey all, check out “moving on”. A young man, peter, has just visited. He grew up in CLC and might need your encouragement…
“This whole event is disgusting to me. MN was one of the few men in my life that could be counted on to exhibit God’s grace. We went to visit him and his wife tuesday night and am so thankful to be able to stand with him through this season!!!”
Azaziah, thank you for doing this!! It breaks my heart to see kind-hearted pastors being hurt.
Stunned,
Thanks. You know me well…
“And this post by Kindred spirit is in fact a contradiction, posting false information about the way they are being treated and talking about their lives on a public blog is what I would call a “public showing” and “throwing stones”.
I hear what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. Would it help if I told you that when I read it, I thought I was reading her opinion and speculation about a situation that may be happening in some homes? I’m not saying that that is what she meant. Probably what she has experienced. I dont’ know. Only she can clear it up. But I just wanted you to know that not everyone is viewing it as her making a statement of fact as you seem to be and I suspect I’m not the only one who read it as merely her opinion. If you go back and re-read it, you may find that she didn’t claim it as a fact whatsoever. (though I could be reading it in a sloppy manner. AKS, can you please clear this up for us?)”
Sorry for the confusion…didn’t realize it wasn’t clear.
Jeff –
I am sure you are well meaning and your accusations weren’t really meant as accusations. I also realize your insults were really not meant as insults. I am also sure the judgments you made were not really judgments. I know that if you honestly agree with some of the concerns you expressed on the blog, you would let God be the Judge as He will pay accordingly, as it is not your place. As you said who are you to pass judgment on someone who has?
It is interesting that so many people are hurt, confused, disillusioned by what they perceive is happening at ML and SGM but it’s really the people on the blog are causing dissension in the body through their passing of judgment on others and gossip. Between you and me, I think it is Bush’s fault.
Not to be too harsh Jeff – but you are flying by the seat of your pants without instruments and as a result you are off course. You need to re-read the comments as to the concern for people (God’s church) and for the body of Christ (His kingdom). Then we might have an intelligent conversation.
Some great posts – Stunned, PK, etc.
1 Tim 3:4 – “He must manage his own family well and his children obey him with respect”
This passage seems to be the catch-all scripture to de-gift, disqualify, set-down, get rid of, etc. etc. pastors and leaders in SGM. Let’s examine this a bit. Do children disobey their parents? According to the passage as it is written children not only have to obey but with respect. Are there any leaders in SGM whose children disobey? Are there any of these children who know better but disobey anyway? Are there those children who obey but obey without respect but obey because they don’t want to suffer the consequences? Would these actions be called sin? Would not any of these situations disqualify every leader in SGM as it is being dispensed today (or the last 30 years)?
I won’t even ask if there are these same leaders with children who disobey their heavenly Father under the same conditions but you know where we could go with this.
Would it seem prudent and logical that it isn’t about the strict aspect of obedience (self-evident truth) but the life, spirit and relationship between parents and their children working out their salvation in fear and trembling? It would seem to me that the real issue is about how we love them and through our love teach them (and model) how to respond to God when they(we) do disobey? Those parents should using their own failures and the failures of their children to teach them the grace, mercy, forgiveness and the love of God for them even in the midst of their failure and how to make things right with God and to those whom they sinned against?
What if a child is caught in their sin (disobedience) and they harden their hearts? Is it not the work of the Holy Spirit to move on the hearts of our children as it is our own hearts to bring them back to the Lord? It would seem it is more valuable to train up a child in the way he should go, is how to right their wrongs not just trying to keep them from doing wrong.
What if a child of a leader is an unbeliever? Is this another case of the leader’s ability to not manage his family well? I think not. If it is by grace that we are saved, only God can save? Only by God’s grace can any of us say yes to Him? Would SGM eliminate a leader if they have an unbelieving child? Probably, even though they should take it up with the Lord.
I don’t want to take away from the issues and hurts at ML but let me share personally how ridiculously SGM applies this passage to my life. I am hesitant to do so but feel so to make a point.
When it was pretty clear that I was not going to make it with PDI they (the apostle) decided to make it personal. “The apostle” pointed out four things in my life that indicated I was unfit to lead or manage the church.
My 19 year old son who loved God with a call on his life (and a good pastoral man in the church) pierced his tongue. My daughter (16) wore a two piece bathing suit to another pastor’s home for a swim. Not that it makes any difference she always wore a t-shirt over her suit at all times (who by-the-way always struggled with the hypocrisy of the SGM leaders way before we saw it). My other son seemed to be a bit. My other son (14) seemed to be disconnected from the church relationally – go figure a teenage a bit disconnected who left all his friends from his previous church as we were in a church planting situation (who has been moving prophetically from a young age). And finally Mrs Irv was not having women’s meetings and not leading the women in the church (despite there be no calling in the scripture as a Pastor’s Wife and Pastor’s Wife responsibilities). Thank God she felt the call of God to care and serve her husband and children as her call.
ML folks, I am not trying to draw attention from you to me but to point how this passage is misused and can be manipulated just about anywhere they want to go.
There are many on this blog that could tell and have told their own story. Nobody can control their children and keep them from disobeying or sinning just as the Lord cannot control us who are their parents. The gross injustice of the application of this scripture is destroying the church. When the shepherd is removed the sheep scatter. It seems to me from what is being said the sheep at ML are scattering.
Who will answer to the Lord for this? The SGM leadership first; the pastors that have allowed themselves to be treated this way in the name of submitting and obey the elders of the church; and those in the congregations who know this is wrong and submit to it anyway.
I have said too much already — but another topic of discussion is when is a child no longer a child but I will spare everyone.
Methinks it is time for some brokenness, humility and repentance starting at the top. It is one thing to apologize for hurting people and it is another to change the wrong methodologies and doctrines bringing this destruction to the body of Christ. But that’s me!!
Irv
That makes a standing ovation, PK. Thank you again.
Ellie, re: June 11th, 2010 at 1:50 pm…
Thank you. The cool refresment of support and fellowship is felt all the way down here in the dry, hot southwest.
Thank you again.
–pk & pd
Jim said, ” Your issue with me (maybe among others), is that I allow unsubstantiated claims on the blog. This is correct. It’s a blog-the public square. I can’t fact check everything that everyone says.”
Unsubstantiated claims against SGM are allowed to be posted here in this public forum. Post first and ask questions later. If at all. This is wrong. Scripture forbids this.
Look at this thread. Criticism and judgements made against Christians at ML even though there are unanswered questions, challenges to details, assumptions, and speculation. (You don’t suppose, by the way, that the leadership of SGM churches might evaluate these situations on a case by case basis, rather than some sort of standard?)
Jeff Purswell has been ridiculed and criticised for some statements he made. Has anyone here bothered to ask Jeff what his take is on those comments? What about a PC student? They spend hours a day with Jeff. Any comments from them? None that I have seen.
What about all of the unsubstantiated claims of pastoral abuse? The maulings, bloody carnage, and spiritual beatings that have taken place for decades. The various accounts I have read as to how widespread this abuse is at SGM: it is mostly single women that are abused; hundreds and hundreds; thousands and thousands; maybe 30%. Unsubstantiated claims are being supported by other unsubstantiated claims.
So what is the truth regarding the Christians and the way they do church at SGM? You won’t find it here.
Too many unsubstantiated claims.
Hi all,
This is my first time posting on this site. Its amazing the tremendous mix of emotions I have while reading this blog, and at times it even scares me how much this all still affects me. But I digress…
There are several different issues which are being addressed here and if its agreeable with you all, my little OCD self is going to break them down (if only I knew how to make bullet points on here I would be truly happy
I will start by saying that I spent the vast majority of my life in SGM. As someone that was raised in SGM it was my entire life, social network and passion (first big problem). I will preface my statements by saying a large part of my sgm experience has been with the churches under DJ apostolic leadership.
1) Hypocrisy / Double standard – In my opinion there is without doubt or question a strong and serious double standard within SGM. This double standard within sgm however is not limited to members of the apostolic team vs. pastors. It also is evidence in “yes” men / the inner circles of the churches and the regular old members. I personally also feel there is a very strong double standard when it comes to the way women and men are treated (don’t even get me started on that). But back to the pastors – If as a movement they are going to decide that pastors should step down when their kids sin, then by all means it should be across the board. The response should not be cherry picked based on who the dad is or is not.
2) Pastor Standards – I must say I do NOT feel that pastors should be held accountable for the actions of their adult children. I do not feel that MN or DJ should have been asked or even felt the need to volunteer (since we keep playing ring around the roses about whether MN was asked or volunteered) to step down. I mean honestly, in these situations they were both adults!! Adults! I think the church missed the memo that at some point they have to put down “Shepherding a Child’s Heart” and acknowledge that their baby’s are all grown up. In both cases these men (JJ and JN) where old enough to make their own decisions whether good or bad.
3) Message this sends to the “Second Generation SGM’ers” – SGM always talks about “handing the baton” to the next generation! Please sgm don’t tell them they are adult men, now responsible for the future of the church and then treat them like children when they slip up. Clearly based on history mistakes and slip ups are not limited to young adults or the second generation sgm’ers. If anyone who is an adult (young or old) makes a mistake, they should learn and be taught to take sole responsibility for their own actions, it should not be pawned off on the parents (not that I’m saying this was done in MLC, I’m speaking in general). And to clarify, I’m also not saying the young adults can not and should not learn, grown and need / want counsel from individuals older, more experience and mature in the Lord. Lets be honest we all should.
4) Double standard – I know I’m double dipping on this topic but I had an additional line of thought on it. I have always found it curious that sin is always publicly announced and fervently followed up on but someone that is hurting or in danger is grossly ignored. Last time I checked there was one verse in the NT bible that discussed how to corporately deal with sin and several hundred that discussed how to love each other. Call me crazy!!! But to me that says a lot.
5) PK – You get a big Amen from me on your June 11th, 2010 at 12:57 pm.
6) Lastly one of my pet peeve – I must say I know nothing personally about the JN situation and these following comments are not directed at him or this current situation. Also, I may be falsely reading into what people have said but several times people have commented that the right decision was made in going off and marrying the girl. I think there is a strong preconception within sgm that if someone sins and has premarital relations that marrying said person is the “right” response. Maybe I need to read the Bible more but I missed that part!! One mistake (sin) does not mean you should jump head first into a relationship that may or may not be right for you. Now of course you should not continue to have these relations. But holy buckets of insanity!! just because you sin does NOT mean you have to get married. Now if you already had plans to marry or truly feel the person is right for you, by all means go ahead. However, it truly is fool hardy to marry someone who is not right for you just because you had sex (or even got them pregnant). And sadly I have known one to many sgm kid who did just that. Nnow they are years down the road and realize the can’t stand the person they have married. Its just sad.
Well thank you all for letting me ramble. Also as a quick side note…. Stunned, Bruised, Canary and so many others, it has been a blessing to me to read your posts on this site, Thank you!
Waters:
re: June 11th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Thank you.
Everyone:
Thanks for the encouragement on the post…I was concerned I went overborad, but I’m not there yet.
RT:
(pk breathes Grace in, fire and brimstone out)
…blood pressure is already going down. Thank you.
–pk
Scar Tissue:
Welcome! May His healing balm bring restoration to that scar tissue.
–pk
30 years…:
While you have 8 years on me, I’ll be happy to address the questions and concerns you have, re: June 11th, 2010 at 3:59 pm.
First, nice attempt at illegitimizing my 22 years of eyewitness experience across three churches and three decades at SGM. But, you lose…thank you for playing.
You said: Jim said, “Your issue with me (maybe among others), is that I allow unsubstantiated claims on the blog. This is correct. It’s a blog-the public square. I can’t fact check everything that everyone says.”
I’m probably simply repeating Jim, but here goes: Contrary to any misrepresentation and false advertising you may claim to be experiencing, this blog is not an SGM fan club. I know that comes as both a shock and surprise, but I quote the subheader on the top of the blog page: “a haven for castaways, a call for reform.”
You said: Unsubstantiated claims against SGM are allowed to be posted here in this public forum. Post first and ask questions later. If at all. This is wrong. Scripture forbids this.
Please quote me chapter and verse in God’s Holy Word on this, particularly the section that says, “It is forbidden to make unsubstantiated claims against SGM that are allowed to be posted here in this public forum. Do not post first and ask questions later. This is wrong,” because that’s what you have effectively said; and tell me if whether or not David fact-checked all of the mean and nasty things he said about Israel’s enemies in the Psalms. Let me know if Isaiah fact-checked all of those mean and nasty things he said about his own nation. I’m pretty sure that when Jeremiah was caged, having filth thrown on him and curses sent his way, he wasn’t able to leave to fact-check all of the mean and nasty and very specific things he said. Let me know Paul’s fact-checking procedure in Romans 1, as well, when he pretty much paints with a wide and scathing brush. By the way, the worst of the criticisms and underbelly on these blogs don’t even begin to approach the level of venom and righteous indignation from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Paul. Just sayin’.
You said: Look at this thread. Criticism and judgements made against Christians at ML even though there are unanswered questions, challenges to details, assumptions, and speculation. (You don’t suppose, by the way, that the leadership of SGM churches might evaluate these situations on a case by case basis, rather than some sort of standard?)
If Jim’s challenging ML to answer “…are you seriously OK with the double standard?” is critical, judgmental, sinfully challenging, assumptive and speculative, then we are using two entirely different dictionaries and thesauri, 30 years. As for this question: “You don’t suppose, by the way, that the leadership of SGM churches might evaluate these situations on a case by case basis, rather than some sort of standard?”, my answer is a return question: standards are bad? Consistency is bad? Part of the problem is how the “case by case” basis is handled, 30 years. Hypocritical springs to mind.
Jeff Purswell has been ridiculed and criticised for some statements he made.
His words written and spoken have been critcized, but he was not personally criticized or ridiculed. Who’s laying false accusations in a lit paper bag on this blog’s doorstep now, 30 years?
Has anyone here bothered to ask Jeff what his take is on those comments?
Not when he makes himself crystal clear, 30 years. That’s the whole point with the spoken and written word: indviduals are clarifying themselves. If he wants to clarify himself, show him where this blog is. Otherwise, I think he he has spoken very clearly on the subjects in question here.
What about a PC student? They spend hours a day with Jeff. Any comments from them? None that I have seen.
They know where this blog is. They won’t get butterfly-shaped invitations, 30 years. Man up and show ‘em where it’s at.
“What about all of the unsubstantiated claims of pastoral abuse?”
I quote myself from earlier: “…nice attempt at illegitimizing my 22 years of eyewitness experience across three churches and three decades at SGM. But, you lose…thank you for playing.” That answer applies here, as well as the response from dozens of others whom you have effectively called liars until they produce bloody evidence in your court of law.
“The maulings, bloody carnage, and spiritual beatings that have taken place for decades. The various accounts I have read as to how widespread this abuse is at SGM: it is mostly single women that are abused; hundreds and hundreds; thousands and thousands; maybe 30%. Unsubstantiated claims are being supported by other unsubstantiated claims.”
Stop exaggerating what you read and stop calling these women liars. Your negation through exaggeration and desire for FBI files on all of this is disgusting. Grow up. And leave your nasty, despicable behavior toward women at the door. Even for you, it’s embarassing and disgusting. Repent, 30 years.
“So what is the truth regarding the Christians and the way they do church at SGM? You won’t find it here.”Thanks again for the thinly veiled “liars!” commentary. It got a reaction earlier. At this point it’s boring and tedious.
You may not be representative of most in SGM, 30 years, but the whole reason I even bothered to answer your questions is that it addresses directly the spirit behind most criticisms leveled at this blog. And when someone comes on and defends the abused, the downtrodden, the bleeding sheep and hurting saints, including those you’ve characterized through sweeping verbal slaps, then your ilk cry unfair, you’re mean, liar, backslidden, bitter, contentious, gossiper, slanderer, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. The names thrown around here at the hurting and the questioning soar in numbers compared to the tiddly-wink chips fired at SGM.
Repent, for the kindom of God is at hand, here, now, present-tense, 30 years, and not limited to inside the four walls of your church or SGM HQ.
Come, Lord Jesus!
–pk
“Too many unsubstantiated claims.”
Those words are the sorry poster child for this blog’s critics.
Eph 5:11 was the scripture the Lord gave during the Chesapeake/Esther
months of battling—for sure, deeds of darkness on mannnnnnnnnny levels were exposed.
Sinful deeds MUST be exposed, lest they gain strength and authority for mass destruction.
Pk, appreciated this part from your post: ”Repentance hasn’t even begun,fellas. Stop the whining and backslapping. The sheep are dying in your midst and you’re mad that someone shot a spitwad at your pastor to get his attention. The arrows haven’t been unleashed yet.”
Expose—- ‘to allow to be seen; disclose; reveal’
Huzzah, PK!
–and shame on you, 30 years. You’ve shown your true colors as a bully time and time again.
30 years -
You say “What about all of the unsubstantiated claims of pastoral abuse? The maulings, bloody carnage, and spiritual beatings that have taken place for decades. The various accounts I have read as to how widespread this abuse is at SGM: it is mostly single women that are abused; hundreds and hundreds; thousands and thousands; maybe 30%. Unsubstantiated claims are being supported by other unsubstantiated claims.”
What exactly would you like!?!? You want to see the bodies!!! and would it really require thousands and thousand for you to care! You want those poor “single women” who have been neglected and abused to come screaming at the top of their lungs into church! Are you simply unaffected when you hear personal testimonies of people overlooked and abandoned. When those young single women go with a friend (me) to pastors / apostolic leaders for help when their care group leader father is emotionally, spiritually and verbally abusing them. When they are so depressed they are cutting themselves and considering suicide! When those leaders, who claim to care and represent God’s love for them, promise they will help, follow up and support. Only to pawn the responsibility off to someone else, who only calls that single women ONCE!!!! And in case you care (which based on your post you do not), that unimportant single women in that unsubstantiated claim tried to commit suicide 1 week after talking to the pastor!! After receiving NO help, support or love!! You can keep your precious Sovereign Grace and MLC!!! But there is NONE of God’s love in that story! Feel free to ask…it happened. But really who cares… its only an unimportant single women making an unsubstantiated claim.
Pardon my sinful response… but screw you!!! It is that kind of attitude that has hurt, scarred and damaged so many lives.
PK-you can speak for me anytime, as you do a far better job than I could do myself. Thank you!
30-I’m done with you. You’ve said goodbye 30 times and come back like a bad rash. You know that I know full details and have evidence of pastoral abuse of authority that I keep off of this blog. People like you tempt me to start puking details on the internet. I’m going to save us both from ourselves.
I know from personal experience that you are not as ignorant as you appear when you post here, but for some reason it seems that your IQ drops 60 points when you begin to type.
Goodbye 30, it’s been fun.
Thank you PK for defending all of us who have truthfully and bravely told our stories so that others might not fall into the same snares.
3o Years, I feel sorry for you. The more you post, the more lack of love is revealed in you. It is easy to call us liars. It isn’t easy to see a truth you wish to ignore. When your sgm wreck occurs, we will be here to help you out. Until then, please stop trying to hurt the all ready wounded people on this blog. They don’t deserve what you are dishing out. Shame on you.
ScarTissue,
Welcome! I’m sorry about 30 years, I should have banned him long ago.
He just joined the very, very short list of people who have been banned from the blog.
ScarTissue,
We are very glad you have posted. Welcome. There are some wonderful people here!
Thanks, Jim, for taking care of that mean-spirited ‘rash’.
I appreciate it and I am really glad to be done. The hatefulness in that last post was very revealing and……hypocritical. And tragic from someone who wants to be known as a brother in Christ.
thanks, also PK for the verbal lesson in ‘accountability’. HYPOCRISY is the theme of this blog post right?
thank you, thank you!
Wow!
It’s been a busy day at the Refuge.
PK! I do Love you brother! (Keeping that wine chilled for you.)
Aw geeze 30, Too bad I missed ya. (Not really.)
PK, again, YOU ROCK!
30, (I know you are reading)
I am truly sad for you.
I mean, really, The accusations you pour out on us, “unsubstantiated claims” “single women”, do you not know that the Creator of the universe humbled Himself and took the full force of God’s wrath on their (our) behalf? That He is our advocate (Paraclete) and will ultimately defend us against our attackers, (that includes you.)
You have epitomized the judgmental lack of love that we have all suffered from and told of here.
Unsubstantiated?
I know the One who will substantiate our stories, and you do not want to be the one He is dealing with when that happens.
Trust me, you really don’t.
It may not be able to be “substantiated”, but I’ll be praying for you.
“I’m reeling from the idea that the private business of an adult engaged couple was made public to two congregations. It’s between them and God, and perhaps anyone who was personally hurt or affected by the sin. ”
Square Peg,
I so totally agree with this statement that you made and this is what I can’t understand – why FRIENDS can’t see how totally needless, unnecessary, hurtful and UNCHRISTLIKE the actions of SGM leadership were towards the repentant and their families that Sunday morning. Seriously!!! Jesus said to the woman who hadn’t even repented yet: “Where are your accusers? Go and sin no more”. It was the Pharisees who publicly humiliated her – NOT Jesus.
How can anyone justify what was done to these people??
Jesus pulls us up out of the muck and mire and sets our feet on solid ground. He doesn’t kick the repentant in the arse and throw dirty diaper bucket water on their heads so that they know what scum they truly are.
White as snow. He calls us friends. Our Deliverer. What a friend we have in Jesus. As far as the east is from the west. All things new.
PK,
your 5:45? Outstanding!!!!
Scar Tissue,
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs to you and your dear friend }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
:’(
sooooooooooo glad you’re here.
So many good posts. It’s hard to comment on them all. Welcome, Scar Tissue. I’m very sorry for your pain and your friend’s pain. I hope she has received compassionate, grace-filled help elsewhere.
As 30 years knows, many families have been put through the ringer because of SGM, not just singles. MY family was put through the ringer. I have lost my patience with the dances folks like him do to skirt the real issues.
PK, I know your departure from SGM was bittersweet, but it was not defeat. I pray encouragement for you and your dear wife.
Ellie, thanks! Love you.
Toby Mac Mr. Talk Box…
Who told you about my RAAAAAsssshhhhh
charlie,
I’m dying here.
(I had to find that song in my son’s music files. Too funny!!)
Wow. I left for a few hours — and while I was gone, you beautiful, eloquent, spirit-filled saints worked hard in bringing salt and light. I am feeling so blessed by what you have written. PK — I believe the lid has been taken off your gifts. You are a gift to us. I know you’ll be sorely missed by those who’ve loved you up close and personal through your 22 years, but I can’t wait to see what God has in store for you.
Thirty Years — there’s a country song that talks about “The Next Thirty Years.” I hope your next 30 will be filled with truth and grace, and that you will not have to walk a mile in the shoes of any of the “single women” or other bruised and abused refugees in order to understand.
From here on out in this post, the initials PK are gonna stand for Preacher’s Kid, not the esteemed Protestant Knight. Hey, PK, are you a PK??
Preacher’s Kids have some tough challenges, to say the least, regardless of denomination. When I was growing up, there were several wild and crazy PK’s in town — and just as many well-behaved, model citizen PK’s — sometimes both types came from the same family. So — if the pastor has one kid that’s great and one kid that gets into flamboyant sin, which one qualifies him for ministry, and which one disqualifies him? Do you see how nutty this can get?
I think it was Irv who recently wrote about ways PDI/SGM originally wanted to be different or better than pre-existing church — one of those was wanting to make sure the pastor’s children didn’t fit the delinquent “Preacher’s Kid” stereotype.
I’ve heard of many people who grew up as “PK’s” long before PDI came to be, who have talked or written about the huge amount of pressure placed on them to behave, to conform, to not bring disgrace upon their father’s ministry.
And now, SGM is duplicating or even multiplying that pressure. How awful — and how powerful — it must feel to realize that your dad’s job, your family’s very living, hinges on your behavior. Daddy makes you mad — hmm. Wow, you can sure fix his wagon. (I can hear the rejoinder, that if Daddy is doing his job, nobody’d have those thoughts. Yes, they could. Immature children do not think or act rationally all the time. (When I was a child, I acted as a child….)
How awful it must be for the fathers to be held hostage to that idea. Yes, scripture teaches that an elder/deacon’s household must be “in order “, and someone far more eloquent than I made good comments on that somewhere above.
I have to wonder — is there some kind of written policy, something taught at the PC, something in a pastor’s contract that spells out specifically what “in order” means to SGM? Is there a list of PK offenses that can get you kicked out, and another list that are ok? Or a “three strikes you’re out” thing? Or is all this just arbitrarily handled on a “case-by-case basis”. And Scar Tissue’s post reminded me that some kids are “quietly rebellious” in passive-aggressive ways, while others are in-your-face. Which kind of rebellion is “more biblical” ? (Couldn’t resist.)
Sure, there are times that leaders need to step aside in order to focus on family issues or children’s problems, just for a season or maybe forever, depending on God’s leading. But for goodness sake, isn’t it about time SG quit butchering the body with meat cleavers? And here’s a question — of all the SGM pastors you know of who’ve been axed on account of children — have any of them been restored to their positions or simply to fellowship? Does anyone know if Larry T was the first to be dismembered (ostensibly) for kid problems — or was this kind of thing done routinely before his problem became a convenience?
Yes — God uses these things to move people. What the enemy means for evil, God means for good. I think many of us can say we are overjoyed that God moved us out of SG. But we would still say that the abuse that precipitated the move was wrong.
Well, as PK reminded me, the question from Jim on this thread was “are you seriously OK with the double standard?”
I don’t see how anyone could answer “yes” to that question. I’m nowhere near Metro, and the question was asked specifically to Metro, so if you’re counting votes, throw out my ballot. But here’s my answer: NO. I am NOT seriously OK with the double standard. What’s fair for the goose ought to be fair for the gander.
Sooo…….Metro Still……One Foot…….
any plan for Sunday? Any conversations that clarity of vision is happening among your friends and congregation? Any plan for Sunday?
I pray you can come together and speak honestly and directly…with the authority of a co-heir with Jesus Christ Himself, seated with Him in heavenly places…and address the hypocrisy or blindness of your leaders with the love and care that they need.
They really do need you. Perhaps WAY more than you need them.
Remember Benny ‘s words last Sunday about serving? It’s time to serve your leaders with love and TRUTH!
Ian,
It should come as no surprise to you that I have the email that was sent to FL sr p’s and to MLC’s hgl’s. “Voluntary” may or may not be the right word. As stated in the email, MN is being relieved of pastoral duties for a season. To quote Danny from last Sunday, “we will be walking Mike through a season of evaluation and discipline” and “Mike will be relieved of his pastoral duties for a season”.
He is being relieved of his duties, which did not happen to Danny when his adult son sinned. That is my entire point. I have no thoughts of conspiracy theories, but would agree the timing is odd, although kind to JN.
I’m assuming that you know what “voluntary” means. While Mike is a humble guy who is submitting and welcoming the season of evaluation and discipline, there is no evidence that he volunteered for it. Knowing Mike, it is quite possible that he did exactly that, but the language used is authoritative. “He will be relieved”, as opposed to “he is relieving himself”.
If your secret little email from MN states that this is voluntary, it contradicts what Danny said publicly. If MN volunteered to relieve himself for a season, Danny used the wrong language.
Again, I am FOR Mike. I am FOR SGM. MY ENTIRE PROBLEM with the situation is the dramatically different way in which the two pastors were dealt with.
Square Peg said:
“Does anyone know if Larry T was the first to be dismembered (ostensibly) for kid problems — or was this kind of thing done routinely before his problem became a convenience?”
At CLC there was a pastor named Chip W. He was one of C.J.’s cronies, i.e. he was a friend of C.J. when they were growing up. Due to family problems he had he either volunteered to step down and/or was “asked” to step down. That was over 20 years ago and he still isn’t back.
He seems to do well selling houses but still attends CLC last I heard.
Thus at least sometimes when a pastor steps down they don’t return.
One other thought I have is with the action of the apostle’s son. His actions show that people should be concerned about all the nepotism that happens in SGM. Putting son’s of SGM Leaders on staff including pastors due to their family connections should be scrutinized more.
This son’s actions seem to indicate he really didn’t have a heart for the ministry or at least the integrity one should show if they are on staff. Maybe he took the staff position since it was an easier path than going out and getting and working a real job? Just something to think about.
Square Peg:
In re: June 12th, 2010 at 1:57 am , you asked “Hey, PK, are you a PK??”
In some sense I guess I am a preacher’s kid. While my Dad never officially held the title in his lifetime of pastor or minister, etc., and was never a full-time minister, he did preach and teach many, many times before his death in 1984 (I was 15).June 12th, 2010 at 9:14 am post. Thanks.
For the record, my Dad believed fully in a plurality of eldership, and communicated as much; I don’t think he would have ever gone for the bulk of SGM’s standard operating procedures…ever. My Dad knew Irv (the poster here at SGM Refuge) whilst Irv was on the pastoral staff/board of elders team at our church. Irv has known me since I was ten years old, around the time he and my Dad led me through the sinner’s prayer. Irv probably also has a better perspective on my Dad’s role in the church (my Dad was on the Pastoral Advisory Committee…hence his attendance in PAC-man meetings…lol); Irv, did you guys consider my Dad an elder? Just curious as I don’t think I’ve ever known.
I didn’t personally plan on the use of Protestant Knight, “PK” to also reflect “preacher’s kid,” but in this case it might be a happy coincidence.
–pk
Everyone:
Please, please, pretty PLEASE read Jim’s
–pk
Dearest Scar Tissue (OK, I don’t know you well enough to call you dearest but I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO in agreement with you sixth point about people marrying just because they had sex- HELLLOOOOOO that is NO WHERE in the bible and it is KA-RAZY! that you have already won my heart. What can I say? I’m easy.),
Your point number 6 was begging to be said so THANK YOU for saying. But I also liked what you said in point #4 (would it make you happier if I called it bullet point number 4?):
4) Double standard – I know I’m double dipping on this topic but I had an additional line of thought on it. I have always found it curious that sin is always publicly announced and fervently followed up on but someone that is hurting or in danger is grossly ignored. Last time I checked there was one verse in the NT bible that discussed how to corporately deal with sin and several hundred that discussed how to love each other. Call me crazy!!! But to me that says a lot.
Excuse me while I run in circles, screaming like a chicen with its head cut off (OK, so they wouldn’t be screaming but I think you get the imagine I’m trying to paint here),
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!AMEN!!!!!!!!!! (I just had to double up.)
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
More scriptures about the hurting, yet we still step over them to get to the one who has a freaking piece of dust in his eye. (Which, admitedly hurts, but it ain’t nothing like the sheep who are laying around with their guts ripped out and bleeding onto the ground.)
A challenge for SGM- spend one year- just one year doing NOTHING but ministering to the hurting. No correction, no sin sniffing. No raising up leaders and focusing on them or even on the healthy. One year, where your every move is to help the hurting, loving, caring for, driving, helping, serving, talking with, crying with, hugging, weeping… one entire year for everyone of you in the joint- from CJ on down. There’s a lot of you. An entire year of just loving the hurting. Without corrections. Without exception. See what God will do to blow the lid off the place. After a year evaluate how your life and you have changed. Evaluate. One year. What could you lose? (Except control?)
PK said, “Thanks for the encouragement on the post…I was concerned I went overborad, but I’m not there yet.”
Not overboard yet, dear brother. Just right.
PK -
Your dad was never officially ordained as an elder although he was a counseler and friend to us. If I remember correctly (and my memory is foggy) he didn’t want to serve in that capacity. His and your mom’s experience in their previous church didn’t lend him a disposition toward leadership from his perspective not ours ( although he had much to say about leadership and to the leadership–LOL. )
Your dad was a very dear friend to me personally. His wisdom simple but with great breadth and depth (hmm). It is amazing how you and T. remind me so much of him. But make no mistake he was an elder to many of us. I do think about him every Father’s day and what an incredible blessing he was to all of us around him in his time of greatest weakness (really greatest strength).
And you would be absolutely correct, he would not be part of SGM with its present application of church authority. He really felt the plurality of leadership we evolved to after the ‘broken covenant” was not only Biblical but brought great sense of security and well-being to the church. (Even though there were some things we were doing that he didn’t appreciate very much.)
With fondest memories,
Irv
Square Peg – Steve240
There were major relational issues between CJ and Larry and there was a push to ‘adjust’ Larry off the A-team (interesting since he the founder) years before there was the issue with his ‘adult’ son. Larry and I had several conversations after he ‘left’ PDI, in this regard – no pastor who had been under discipline was ever restored, when the purpose of discipline was to bring about restoration. Unfortunately, Larry became a victim of his own doing so to speak.
I don’t know if a pastor under discipline has returned in the last 14 years but there where none in the previous 14 years.
Irv
In my SGM church there have been a least 3 pastors “step down”. I knew them all fairly well. Two better than the one. One of those two especially well. Still dear to my heart. I can’t remember why the third had to step down but the first two were supposedly because of their kids. (Adults and not committing murder, while I am at it. Whatever, I won’t even go there.)
None of the three were ever “restored” to ministry at SGM though that was supposedly the hope. If their restoration ministry was a hospital it would be shut down since every single one of their patients die on the operating table. I’d liken their restoration ministry more to hospice care. Without the care part.
Greetings,
I enjoyed a good conversation on the phone w/ Jim this morning. I agree that it is time for me to move on and not post here anymore.
In my last post, I wanted to be brief and not repeat myself. It came across poorly to say the least and was full of holes. I appologize for my poor attempt at communication.
Jim has graciously allowed me to explain myself more clearly in this, my last post.
I was talking about pastoral abuse at SGM. I quoted several responses from folks who believe that pastoral abuse at SGM is widespread to one degree or another. These responses represent a variety of opinions that I have read, both on this blog and on Survivors, as to the quantity of folks who have been abused. In other words, just what is the extent of pastoral abuse at SGM? Some said hundreds, some said thousands, one person said 30%.
One person at Survivors told me that while pastoral abuse has been seen across the board, “it is mostly single women that have been abused”.
The only point that I was/am trying to make here is that there is a difference of opinion as to what “widespread” means and do we really know the true extent? If we do not know the true extent, can we justify the claim of “widespread pastoral abuse at SGM” ?
In no way was my last post any sort of commentary on single women. I regret the way it was written and I am sorry for the way it came across.
Regarding Jeff Purswell, he has been accused of telling pastors that they replace God when they stand at the lectern to preach. This is not what he meant. I simply do not understand how you can post your interpretation of “in the stead”, believe that it accurately represents what JP meant, make critical remarks based on your interpretation, all w/o talking to JP himself. Or even someone close to him who would know what he meant.
“GH” not to far back gave his interpretation of “in the stead”. It was a clear, reasonable presentation of “in the stead” that is completely different than what most others here at refuge believe. I believe he accurately presented what JP meant.
Finally, the burden of proof regarding all of these public claims against SGM is on the one who is making them. First gather all reasonable evidence, witnesses, and documentation. Get all sides of the story. It is your responsibility to ensure that your claims are completely substantiated before presenting them to 40,000+ people, in my opinion.
Thank you all for listening, ……in His grace, 30.
That’s all, folks… all further comments to 30 will be one way, as he won’t be able to respond. I would just move on, as it’s unfair to address someone who is unable to respond, and probably not reading.
I am aware of one pastor who stepped down, went back to the PC, and now is SP of a church in Orlando area by the name of Metro Life Church. Anybody ever hear of that one??
;>}
… but, my thoughts regarding 30 are not some rule, but rather advice. I rarely follow my own advice (don’t start a blog), so I’ll address two of 30′s points.
1) I would agree that if you’re going to trash someone on the internet, you’d better have your facts straight. When SGM members challenge me regard the truth of what is said here, I ask them for proof. I’ve corrected myself often here, and will correct you if I find out that you are wrong.
2) We can’t quantify pastoral abuse of authority within SGM. It is widespread, meaning it hits all corners of the map, but I have way of determining what percentage of SGM pastors abuse their authority. I like to use the term, “some”. Enough to drive a ton of traffic to two blogs and to keep me busier than I ever wanted to be.
In SGM’s defense, their leader’s current practice is to go after the truth in the majority of cases when I’ve passed on signed statements to CJ. Pastors have confessed and repented. Reconciliation has been achieved. Again, not in every case, but in the majority of the situations that I’ve been involved with.
I think that abusive pastors should take the initiative, and pursue their roadkill without SGM Inc’s involvement, but it is very encouraging that CJ has ensured that the majority of the cases I have brought to him have been addressed.
Defender, not that it matters, but he’s not the Sr P.
30Years,
Probably I would be at a place of stalemate with you. I know many like you in sgm- been there many years,and though you may have heard of or even witnessed pastoral abuses etc—each one must be substantiated,documented to every inth degree. And obviously, that still would not be “enough” for you. There is a loyalty (bondage) of many sgm’ers which chooses sgm/family of churches over truly seeking Truth…..recall Jesus’ words to us to …ask…seek..knock….on HIS door…not sgm pastor or leaders door.
Please reread the Chesapeake/Esther story. This is the most publically documented story of SGM pastoral abuse. Letters from pastors, ‘apostles’, meetings, and the circus of required jumping through hoops and meetings. And “Esther”??? A Godly woman of impeccable character, my friend of 20 years—a woman whom the current Sr Pastor in Chesapeake once described as “yes, when we are all in heaven we’ll look up—and there will be “Esther”..” because she is one of those who is pure in heart.- To this day, the “3 Couples” who were STIRRED BY GOD to become her advocates against the DOCUMENTED abusive unChristlike counsel by her pastors and apostolic leaders (SS and GE)—carry the label GE issued upon them as ‘enemies of the church.’!!!!!!——Thats one persons story, you say??? Thats what the 3 Couples thought when they began the battle—and then-yearrrrrrrrrs of abuse were uncovered. And many were women–wives——– A PATTERN of unbelievable control —controling in the manner they were INSTRUCTED IN BY SGM HEADQUARTERS.
————–And this is what continues………..THEIR POLITY INFORMS THEIR ACTIONS.
SGM is a little fish in the big pond of American churches———– ALARMING, isn’t it, that the number of voices reporting abuse,maulings,hypocrisy,control, manipulation,deceptions, is becoming louder and louder???????????? Ya think God is exposing something here???? And if so,why??????????? So sins can be SEEN———-
repented of———-AND CRY OUT TO JESUS——-and receive deliverance and restoration.
30Years, I know there are pastors in sgm who doNOT particpate in maulings and control (I personally know 5). My prayer for them is to SEE….to rise up …address and renounce the destructive leaven in sgm—all 5 pastors that I know, also know of WRETCHED DOCUMENTED CASES OF PASTORAL ABUSE AT THE HANDS OF THEIR FELLOW SGM PASTORS—- and they doNOT confront these men!!! I mean, not even man-to-man!!!
[[personal insert here-- I am soooooooo thankful for my clinteastwoodchristianhusband]]
30Years, our family went through 2 years of DOCUMENTED WITNESSED meetings, with pastors, apostles–up to cjm. Our story was obvious in the mismanagment of pastoral oversight and the uncovered evidences of unChristlike, Holy Spirit absence of the sr pastor. everyone (including cj) was saddened. Revelation: 2 weeks after we heard from cj how deeply sad he was over our situation, he spoke to the nc church—reminding them that as sgm congregants, they were to ask themselves “am I a joy to pastor”?????
…………..so has anyones story brought a sorrowful repentant heart and spirit change to these leaders???? I think not—they continue on—-Evaluations are done…conclusions are come to—– but still, their skewered polity informs their spirit in the place of Holy Spirit.
sgm people have,for yearrrrrrrrrs been trained to submit to their pastors— at the expense of a lessening sensitivity to the unctions,checks,and life-giving leadings of Holy Spirit.
And so———sgmrefuge is a voice, I believe, on behalf of our Brethren—because we love them…….and Jesus, the Good Shepherd, has come for us to have abundant Life… in Him.
30Years, I truly pray the LOVE of God will flow, afresh and anew, into you and your family— Waters
Jim, I’m sorry— as I posted this I saw your post in response to 30 years etc.. We are thankful for the current “going after the truth” from leadership—–and—-hope to see them going after the leaven/poison in their foundation! (IMHO). Onward………..
Thank you all for your warm welcome. It wonderful to be around people who have seen what I saw for so many years. It is nice to know I was not crazy!! (I was wondering for a while).
My apologies if my response to 30 years was…umm.. a little strong. As you can see its all a little fresh still (not that its an excuse for reacting in anger). Maybe “open wounds” would have been a better name than “scartissue”. – 30 years thank you for clarifying you statement.
Stunned – You can call me dearest! We are all family in Christ and I’m sure its only a matter of time before you know me well.
Also…hehe. Love the “run in circles, screaming like a chicken with its head cut off ” Don’t we all feel like that sometimes.
Ellie – Thanks for the hugs!! They are always needed.
PK – I’m going to sound like a big sap but your simple statement “May His healing balm bring restoration to that scar tissue” brought tears to my eyes. What a wonderful reminder that the Lord is the healing balm. Sadly at times its hard for me to remember that is who He is.
Jim – Thank you for caring for us all.
Defender
June 12th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
I am aware of one pastor who stepped down, went back to the PC, and now is SP of a church in Orlando area by the name of Metro Life Church. Anybody ever hear of that one??
Jim
June 12th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Defender, not that it matters, but he’s not the Sr P.
Correct – Benny is the “Executive pastor” but given 3 months, he will soon be the Senior Pastor at Metro Life Church while Danny is quietly “retired” for letting all of this happen under his watch. Mike N will never be reinstated, as is SGM meaning of discipline, and he will join the ranks of the many “degifted” Pastors that float around in post SGM land.
“Degifted”? Is that found in the book of Hezekiah somewhere?
Do we have a few of those “degifted” Pastors on this site? Let me see your hands.
Thanks Jim,
I thought he was, and don’t recall now that I think of it, where I heard that.
Anyhow, he is one case where a pastor was restored.
That was my intended point.
Thanks for the clarification.
Metro Still – where are you, Famagusta, Collateral Damage and all the rest of the Metro Life folks? Would love to get your views on the “degifting” of the only one of the 3 remaining with a true Pastors heart. Who, now that Todd and Mike are gone will take up the counseling load of all the hurting at MLC?
Defender,
Just the fact that the pastor you speak of (I know the man) is on staff at all makes your point. He somehow did not get “degifted”. Still don’t know how that happened when so many others never got their jobs back. P.S. Mr. Canary and I are looking forward to next weekend!
Scar Tissue, we are so glad you feel free to post here. I think your response to 30 years was honest and heartfelt – necessary. This is a good place to vent (to some extent) as you begin to really understand where you’ve been. I know I did my share of it in the early days, and I’m not the only one. It’s all a process of learning what was true and what was not during your days in sgm. Expect a time of dis-illusionment. That can bring some anger. It’s okay. God will lead you through it and into more grace than you ever new was possible in this lifetime! The joy of the Lord is your strength…:)
Naus- Benny’s no longer the exec, correct? I thought that MLC did away with that title for now.
I am waiting to say anything until after I meet with someone on staff. They will get my questions and observations first. I couldn’t meet with anyone this past week because the pastors and administrator were having retreat/planning week.
Ian,
I didn’t respond directly to you yesterday because I was busy, and to be honest, I needed to settle down a bit or else I would have “lit in” on you. More than likely I’m older than your mother and I have this vision of when my own sons would occasionally “get in my face.” (I can explain the term if you need me to.) Our children were welcomed to approach their father and me when they disagreed with us, but they were expected to do so respectfully. You didn’t come to me personally with your complaint about my comment, and somehow, on this side of a computer screen, it just didn’t feel respectful.
I was sharing my thoughts on “One Foot In’s” comment, and some comments made by Debutante. I was sharing my thoughts on situations similar. I was voicing my opinion about things that I have STRONG emotions about. They were statements based on my perspective, my understanding, my experiences, and my beliefs.
Josh responded by letting me know that no stones were being thrown, and if anyone tried to throw stones, they would have to get past he and his wife. (Once again, good for you Josh, and I didn’t perceive you as being disrespectful for responding and “setting me straight.”) My own children (knowing how “passionate” I get about such topics) would have said, “Mom! Mom! Settle down! You’ve got it all wrong!”
However, to address both Josh and Ian, let me assure you boys that given the size of Metro and the sin nature of humans, I can almost guarantee you that there *ARE* those among you that have a “stone throwers” heart relating to this situation, whether they would ever act on it or not. It was to that “possibility” that I was speaking to in my comments, as well.
Jim, and all, sorry for the ruckus my comments caused yesterday; however, it appears it was a productive day on the blog.
Blessings,
Kindred
30 years:
I realize you cannot respond, but I have to address this (and no, I don’t relish in having the last word on this; I’ll also issue the obligatory disclaimer that this is PK’s opinion):
You said: “Regarding Jeff Purswell, he has been accused of telling pastors that they replace God when they stand at the lectern to preach. This is not what he meant. I simply do not understand how you can post your interpretation of “in the stead”, believe that it accurately represents what JP meant, make critical remarks based on your interpretation, all w/o talking to JP himself. Or even someone close to him who would know what he meant.”
You have entirely missed the point of that Man instead of God post…entirely. You’ve missed the entire point on the bulk of the posts here. Over and over I and Jim have indicated in all of our posts the theme that if they (SGM) are trying to convey something positive, or convey care for the sheep, they are doing the poorest of jobs in this area. If you are a denomination, organization, family of churches, or even a coffee klatch or treehouse club that at least pretends to feign some slight interest in the laity or sheep, there are some critical things you don’t do. Among them are:
You don’t use the example of statues of near east kings to convey the authority and presence of pastors, you don’t conjure up visions of Moses a la Heston as the pastor in charge, you don’t credit Art Monk’s testimony to the fruit of good pastoring, you don’t say SGM EXISTS to serve pastors, you don’t say missions is planting the “local church,” within rock-throwing distance from other healthy Christian churches, you don’t tell abused women that “isn’t it wonderful that you’re still doing better than you deserve?”, you don’t call the blogs poison, you don’t call the blog commenters and posters-who happen to be your brothers and sisters in Christ-gossipers and slanderers, you don’t lay the burden of proof at the offended’s feet as if somehow you can crib American legal practices into how you treat your brothers and sisters in Christ, you don’t….you don’t…you don’t.
We could go into hundreds more, 30 years. Rather than this being a storage of offenses (as it is characterized by many), it is SGM’s laundry list they created. Not us. You and others have constantly spoken of these blogs as if it is unwanted baggage. It’s time to go to the baggage claim counter with your ticket and deal with it.
So if Sovereign Grace ministries is the end of the rainbow as they and most of their members have held themselves forth to be, many things have to change, and there must be outright reform, 30 years…and it is simply time to deal with it in the most public of fashion, without all of the drama and hijacking of bible verses to keep things in the shadows.
Until the day the gulf between leadership and laity is filled with unspoiled and healthy ground, the voices of this blog won’t stop.
–pk
Canary,
“Mr. Canary and I are looking forward to next weekend! ”
We too!
Sorry about the mix up, but then, our last customer just left us at 4:30 anyhow, so God knew.
PK,
I appreciate your passion and eloquence, (I have only one of those two qualities.)
Jim, concerning the “executive pastor” question?
Who knows anymore with all the gifting and degifting – who’s on first, what’s on 2nd?? Can’t even see the roster when you go to the Metro Home page. No pictures of any faces among the men of “proven character”.
All you get is the statement “The local leadership of Metro Life Church is composed of spiritually gifted men who, by the grace of God, have been trained and mentored through years of experience to oversee the life and mission of this fellowship. Those raised up to serve in this capacity have been recognized locally by the “fruit of their labor,” the church itself, and extra-locally by the Sovereign Grace Ministries apostolic team. They have demonstrated the proven character, spiritual maturity, calling, commission and anointing that qualifies them for leadership.”
Whether they continue to have that proven character and anointing is anyone’s guess which is why there aren’t any pictures on the site. (Canary – you are so right about the man that should have been degifted)
Quick question about an unusual (to me) term I keep seeing:
“de-gifting”
What is the pedigree of this expression? Is it a term actually/historically used within SGM to describe removal from office or ministry; or is this an ironic turn of phrase coined by those critical of the process?
“De-gifting”? Jim, as one who has probably been “degifted” do you want to tackle that question from That Bad Dog?
PK -
Your post from 6/12 5:11 pm makes me want to life up my kilt and shout “Freedom”! You go, boy! Change your name to William Wallace and I’ll storm the castle with ye!
May the walls come a-tumblin’,
Former SG Pastor
RT -
re: 6/11 @ 11:12 – Oy! That kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting. Jim and Irv have helped exorcize some of my demons and an exorcist is what you are likely to need. That or a holy head lock from PK …
One would think that the lad would see the discontinuity in “missions” as he has probably experienced it and “missions” as SG has redefined the word.
A tough call,
Former SG Pastor
De-gifting = When an [SGM] Apostle arrives at a given SGM church and announces to the congregation that it has been discovered that the [Person in question] is not so much as gifted in the [paid ministry position] as would allow for continued operation in said position.
This is the stated reason for a number of pastors being asked [required] to “step down” from ministry in various churches in the past.
We have called it “De-Gifting”.
That help?
“sgm people have,for yearrrrrrrrrs been trained to submit to their pastors— at the expense of a lessening sensitivity to the unctions,checks,and life-giving leadings of Holy Spirit.
And so———sgmrefuge is a voice, I believe, on behalf of our Brethren—because we love them…….and Jesus, the Good Shepherd, has come for us to have abundant Life… in Him.”
Waters, WONDERFUL post!! The main reason, among several that caused me & my family to know it was time to leave our sgm church was that we were told that we can not hear the voice of God, we can not hear the Holy Spirit to our own spirits, we needed the PASTORS for that. This is DIRECTLY opposing scripture: we have need of no MAN, the Holy Spirit will speak to us.
PK,
“Until the day the gulf between leadership and laity is filled with unspoiled and healthy ground, the voices of this blog won’t stop.”
Your whole post was so heartfelt and breath-takeningly to the point that, like ScarTissue, my sappy self had tears in my eyes.
{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}
FSGP,
Aye, laddie, yer passion warms m’ heart, but please don’t be lifting your kilt, lifting yer broadsword (o’ the Spirit!!) will be much more beneficial, doncha think?
That Bad Dog:
You asked:
Quick question about an unusual (to me) term I keep seeing:
“de-gifting”
What is the pedigree of this expression? Is it a term actually/historically used within SGM to describe removal from office or ministry; or is this an ironic turn of phrase coined by those critical of the process?
The latter.
–pk
Defender and I are listening to a favorite CD, “Overflowing Grace” this a.m. and praying for our brothers and sisters in Orlando.
That’s beautiful, Defended. I am praying, too. And we’re even in the same time zone!
This may seem like a silly question. Maybe to simplistic…but here goes. Why don’t the folks at ML get together, sit before the Lord, and let the Holy Spirit minister His comfort and truth to the entire family? Leave the control model of authority in the lobby. Let all be subject to one another in love – level the playing field. Allow the saints to pray and wait on God together. See what He has to say about everything.
Too simple?
Canary,
It would depend upon how ingrained into the psyche of the congregation, the requirement that only a pastor can lead or even authorize such a revolutionary thing to take place.
I’m not trying to be snarky.
Depending on what the Blood/Kool-Aid level is in an individual to desire such a thing.
It would, however be an act of the Holy Spirit to do that.
Let’s pray.
Defender, okay, I’m praying…
To Jim and Kindred Spirit,
The truth should be sought after in all situations, on this blog there is very little truth being brought to the light. I saw things being said on here that were blatantly false. All I want is for people who read the things on this blog to see both sides of the argument. The things that I say don’t come from opinions or 2nd hand information they come from the source which is logically closer to the truth. I do not care what you think of me or what I say, I did not post for you. And I will not argue mute points with you. I said what I need to say to defend the truth.
“And shepards we shall be for the my Lord for thee, Power hath decended forth from thy hand , our feet may swiftly carry out thy commands, so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teaming with souls it shall ever be…..In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti”
Ian
Yes, Ian– Truth, straight-forward truth is indeed the battle
and let us all continue to…run to….cry out to….seek after…the One Who will lay open truths: Jesus, THE Shepherd and Guardian of our souls. (IPeter 2:25)
Ian,
I’m curious as to why you would say that “there is very little truth” on this blog. Aren’t you calling all the folks who post on the blog liars? That’s a sweeping judgement on a blog that’s been around for 2 years now–with 10000s of words and many contributers (of which you know a few).
It’s one thing to say you’ve found some discrepancies–understandable given the number of contributers and so on. I’ve found that different people will have different takes on events, based on a variety of factors–and no one is lying. I’ve also found that one’s perspective on events changes as more information is gathered, as eyes are opened.
BTW – “mute” means silent, whereas “moot” means having no practical significance. (I’ve been grading too many essays here at the end of the semester)
Ian,
Very little truth? Time to wake up. Are there lies and misunderstandings? Yes. There must be, as every poster doesn’t have to pass a polygraph before posting.
But very little truth? You’re lacking the same logic and discernment as those who post, “all SGM pastors are abuse monsters.”
We have brought a boatload of truth to light. Truth that never would have seen the light without refuge and survivors.
You should obey your leaders and “thank God for the blogs.”
THIS blogger is after the truth, and you claim to be able to provide evidence of your claims, which may be true.
Unfortunately, you declined. Look at my picture and then look in the mirror and tell me who is to blame.
As I said before, step up or stop your whining.
Maybe Ian is 30 years with a different handle?
Ian, you write, “All I want is for people who read the things on this blog to see both sides of the argument.” Most posters here have lived in the other side of the argument. Why do you think this blog has a life of its own?
So has anyone heard anything about C.J.’s message to MLC today? Did he not mention anything about the 2 pastors stepping down? Did he just give a “generic” message or the promised continuation of his last message?
Ian, you say:
“on this blog there is very little truth being brought to the light.” Unproveable. What are you talking about?
“All I want is for people who read the things on this blog to see both sides of the argument.” Many things on this site are not arguments. They are testimonies. Even in a court of law, first person testimonies are admitted as true.
“The things that I say don’t come from opinions or 2nd hand information they come from the source which is logically closer to the truth.” Unproveable and non-specific. To what specifically are you referring? You have truth but everything else is opinion.
I don’t understand what the “Shepard” quote is about (Shepherd, maybe?) . A song? Are you implying that you are speaking in the Lord’s stead? Speaking God’s truth?
If you are speaking the Lord’s truth, and others here are not in agreement with your truth, then they must, by definition, be speaking Satan’s falsehoods.
Riiiiiiggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttttttttt.
Logic, my friend, you need more logic. Also, the willingness to ”see both sides of the argument,” to quote someone you know.
Gratefully Disillisioned, Ian isn’t old enough to be “30 Years” since he is still in his early 20′s. Nice kid, too, and a very good friend to one of mine own. Don’t be too hard on him. He’s trying to do his best to stick up for people he loves, which is admirable.
Steve240, I heard the message this morning. I am not a fan of CJ and wasn’t really expecting to like it (the last one he did made me very upset) but was able to glean some good and encouraging stuff from it once he actually got into the Scripture part of the message. He was mainly focusing on