Canary–we can never tell with SGM. My gut tells me that they will do whatever it takes to protect the mother ship and all of its off springs. That sounds cynical, I know, but I have been around organized religion too long to look at this with fresh eyes. Age does that, you know. Our hope is in Christ alone.
Where is the cat? Did he die or something?
The “Godfather” still rules from the mothership.
(With cotton balls in his cheeks.) CJ has made an offer Metro can’t refuse, lest the Shankster show up and preform a degifting.
Just my opinion, but I’d put money on it (If I had any.)
I truly believe there is a contract of some sort, that dictates how a given church will operate while under the control of CJ & Co.
If not, then any congregation can just thumb their noses at the naked emperor and do as they are guided by God.
Right? (Or have the congregations been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of life without SGM leadership?)
Aside from losing Todd?
5 homegroup leaders left the church as well as at least 20 other families. The families that left had been there 15 or more years, with over 5 having spent 20+ years at Metro. The response from leadership has become “well, Metro isn’t the church for everyone.” So sad that so many families with so many years invested in a fellowship with decades of friendships can be so casually dismissed like a traveling salesman being turned away at the door with his unsold Fuller Brushes.
There are at least 30 other families “on the fence ” waiting to see if anything will change. Here’s some change for you. The pastor that admitted to being proud and unapproachable is now teaching counseling at the church. (And in global news, Iran is on the UN Human Rights Council)
Had Todd decided to stay in Orlando and start a church he would have had over 200 people on his first Sunday, but his integrity wouldn’t let him do that.
Todd, if you are reading (like I know everyone else at SGM is) please reconsider, you were Pastor to many at Metro and those left behind feel the loss.
“have the congregations been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of life without SGM leadership?”
Afraid that the answer to this is likely yes. Can’t imagine our former congregation rising up to lead from within if a crisis arose, all eyes would look to MD for guidance. The people are taught to be unquestioningly submissive, that doesn’t lend itself to revolutionary (biblical) thought. It leads to dependence, as with a small child.
Hope
You so definitely nailed it! We have some friends left from our ex-SGM “church,” and they are afraid to even discuss benign events with us. They are afraid of slipping into gossip or slander. They have been sooooo conditioned that discussion with them about what’s wrong inside the SG walls is OFF LIMITS–period.
I remember that – it was like unending adolescence – we were never really allowed to grow up, to mature in the faith, because the leadership did most of the work of ministry. Why grow up when the parent takes care of everything? I had to leave pdi to mature in the faith, turning to Jesus as my Teacher. It wasn’t easy – I was amazed at how much unbelief there still was in my heart (though my mind was filled with doctrine). This hard road led to ultimate freedom from fear and many other snares.
Good point you bring up – in the absence of pastors, how would sgm folks make it on their own (there are exceptions, I’m sure)?
G.D.,
The gossip/slander thing kept us from speaking out after we left. My husband and I were still confused about what was happening. I now see that it would have been okay to tell others of our experience…if anyone had bothered to call and ask. Ha! They were probably afraid to gossip/slander by asking us what happened!
I don’t know Todd. I do know what it is like to be disillusioned by pdi/sgm. If only there had been a pastor around at the time who knew what we were going through, who could have pulled us all together (those who left) to show us the true love of God. I believe Todd would be doing the people he loved and served a great favor by being there for them, helping them heal and regroup. This would not put his integrity into question, only highlight his love for the sheep. Heck, the pastor I use to follow took half his old church with him when he left the Baptist church he was assistant pastor in…no stone throwing from this guy!
I’m trying to say that I remember the misery and loneliness I and others went through as we had to work through the devastation of betrayal. We wondered what doctrines were true, what ones needed to be thrown out. There were many tears, sleepless nights, even physical infirmities as we worked through our experiences. The Lord was faithful (though I know a few folks who fell away). How much easier it would have been to have a man of faith explain, comfort, and pray for us.
So Todd looking after the sheep he has labored over doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me. It’s the peoples’ choice, not leadership of sgm. They are free to leave and go where they wish, just as Todd is free to care for the people of God in whatever way he is called to. Someone needs to look after the wounded sheep. Someone needs to have the heart to leave the 99 to go after the one! If people have left Metro Life, then I gaurantee they are having a difficult time in their spirits. There is confusion, pain, and any number of other emotions going on. Someone needs to help them!
Sadly there is little to talk about with our ex-SGM “church” friend, mainly because our commonality was that particular SG “church,” especially. Our common joy and excitement should be based on the Lord Jesus, Abba, and the LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us. Unfortunately, that too causes strain because we have gone in another direction theologically from SGM. They are so afraid to even consider thinking outside the SGM theological box for fear of drifting into “heresy.” They pretty much feel the need to check with their pastor on practically everything–you know, the “covering thing.”
They see their pastors as protection–I see them as oppressive: where to live, what to read, how and how much to spend, how to date (oops court), who to marry, how to interact with your neighbor, how to bring an “observation,” how to “correct,” where to send your kids to school or to send them at all, how many to have, and the list goes on endlessly.
G.D.,
“Our common joy and excitement should be based on the Lord Jesus, Abba, and the LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us. ”
I couldn’t have put it better.
My heart leaped for Joy when I read that.
THANKS!
Defender, you couldn’t have put it any better?! Brotha, I don’t even know what it means.
“LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us”. Darn it GD, now I have to go look up paraclete on dictionary.com. (Thank heavens I have a touch of ADD so will get distracted before I get there or it’ll start getting a little too high brow around here. You need to keep me ignorant in order to bring down the average IQ on this site. Making it accesible to regular folk and all that.)
Falling out of my chair laughing…..Canary’s cousin? Pair of cleats?
Paraclete = Advocate, Lawyer, Defender.
The Greek word Jesus used in John 14:16 when he said He would send a Helper. In some versions the word translated is Comforter.
The Holy Spirit of God.
(I’m not that smart. I only learned this a few weeks ago listening to R. C. Sproul’s radio show. And, yes Stunned you do need a dictionary when you listen to, or read Sproul.)
Main Entry: Par·a·clete
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-ˌklēt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Paraclyte, from Late Latin Paracletus, Paraclitus, from Greek Paraklētos, literally, advocate, intercessor, from parakalein to invoke, from para- + kalein to call — more at low
Date: 15th century
Paul, thank you. By the time I got to “literally” I was lost, though. Like I said, we need outliers* like me to keep the IQ average closer to the norm**.
*Hmmm, now that I think about it, are outliers included in averages or are they culled from the stats because they are, after all, outliers?
** ‘Cause I’m all about street cred and keepin’ it real.***
*** Yes, that would be my lily white way of saying I grew up in upper-middle class suburbia and still think I’m being somewhat ironic in a hipster**** like fashion.
**** So I just took this “Christian hipster” test because it’s 4 freaking 30 in the morning and what else are you going to do at 4 freaking 30 in the morning and I was all happy to discover that I scored very low (hurray for not falling into the Christian-who-moved-to-the-city-to-love-its-inhabitants*****-hipster-trap-even though my church is chock full of hipsters …wait, what the heck was I saying? Right, hurray for not falling into the cool-Christian-hipster trap******.)
***** Or was it just because I went to school here and got stuck?
******OK, so I have to admit that I was somewhat horrified to find that I actually do fall into the “Bookish Intellectual Hipster” category, closely followed by the “Frugal Collegian Hipster”**********. Really? What the heck kind of world is this world coming to if a middle aged woman falls into a hipster category?
*******Can an overuse/over love********** of footnotes indicate a longing for a return to academics (bite your tongue, Stunned and stop snickering, RT!) or just the love of asterexes********?
******** Aster-i?
*********OK, so get this. Tomorrow, or rather in 5 hours, I’m going to the oldest horse show in the nation. To sit in a little private box next to disgustingly wealthy old money people. We all already know that I’m not going to fit in. So, here’s my question: do I wear my very modest-bought- it- in- the- inexpensive- nightgown –section- of- Marshalls- but- it- always –passes- for- a- preppy- little- dress outfit (but fear being busted for, after all, wearing a nightgown) or give up and wear jeans and a t-shirt in the 90+/high humidity? Ah, the trials of being a Frugal Collegian Hipster^^^ near the Main Line.
********** Seriously? Have you really been able to count these many asterexes/aster-i? That is either amazing or you should consider getting a “job” in a casino counting cards and gambling a la rain man. Pray I don’t have any more sleepless nights or I’ll ruin Jim’s refuge with pointless non-sequitters.
^^^ (^^^^)Which really means that I graduated a year ago but am still broke. I just much more prefer the panache of “Frugal Collegian Hipster” than “broke-ex college student”.
^^^^ Yes, I really just did footnote my footnotes. Just to say, did you notice that I changed the indicators to carets^^^^^ instead of those little stars? Yeah, that’s the way I like to roll. OK, that was a lie, I couldn’t count anymore stars so started over with carets.
^^^^^ Yes, I really did look up the proper way to spell editing carets. What else are you going to do at (now) 5 freaking am in the morning. (Ok, so “am” on its own would indicate morning, but I’m TIREDDDDD!)
I woke up this morning thinking of your “Dove” comparison to paraclete…my little bird brain may take its time in working, but I got it! Dove – paraclete – Holy Spirit! So I come on here so proud of my little yellow self only to see that Defender and Paul have already explained the meaning of the word. Dang, I wanted to show off…
Stunned,
I think you used up all the Aster-i Jim has for this thread.
Perhaps we can take up an offering to send to Jim to purchase more from the Aster-i factory.
;>}
Canary,
Yes, that was the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) instructing you.
You see, are not just a simple little bird.
You are His possession, and have the mind of Christ.
Happy Memorial Day everybody!
I love living near Buckley AFB. The F-16′s come down here and form up to do their Memorial Day fly-by’s and we get our own personal air show on the Holiday’s.
With thankfulness and gratitude to our veterans, God bless our troops!
And God bless the United States of America!
(With “Stars and Stripes Forever” playing in the background.)
Defender, yep my Paraclete is such a great instructor…we had a military plane flying over our area for a Memorial Day Remembrance. We get to see planes all the time flying from the Airforce Base. Some of those big ones fly low over our houses – man, they are like whales in the sky! Everybody remember those who gave their all for our freedoms. God Bless America.
Hi,
Been reading for a while, but first time posting.
Stunned – my parents used to take the family to the Devon Horse Show. I was more excited than anything to see Larry Ferrari play the organ- forget the horses! Maybe you can recommend a church in the area. I feel disconnected to the Sov. Grace church I attend (and maybe you attended at one time?) Like Kris says over at Survivors, it’s something I can’t quite put my finger on, but I know it’s there.
Someone else in the area! Wooop Wooop! Are you out near Devon now or elsewhere? I’m living in Philly now and can recommend a church there but don’t know where to tell you in the burbs. Yes, I was a HUGE part of the SGM church in the burbs for 15 years. Or rather, I should say, it was a large part of my life. I know what you mean about not being able to put your finger on something and I know how painful that can be. You probably love a lot of the people there. (I still think a lot of them are pretty amazing. Though a couple are down right nutters but it took me a long time to recognize that as it’s so easy to get caught up in the craziness of things.) It can take a long lonely time to build relationships in new churches even once you have decided to go to one. I can only tell you I have never regretted leaving Cov Fel, even though it was absolutely heartbreaking to go. Heartbreaking.
I wish I could have a way to contact you, but for certain reasons I don’t feel safe giving out my email publically. I think that if Kris over at SGM Survivors is feeling in an especially good mood and if we ask really nicely, she would be willing to send you my email address and we can email each other if you want to talk more about your experience or what you’re thinking about. Or for you to ask any questions you want. I’ll shoot her an email and see if she would be so kind. Then if you shoot her one, maybe she’ll give us the other’s email.
Larry Ferari! Wow, you are def from this area, Girl!
Thanks for posting and sharing a bit about yourself. This place and Survivors have been a place of help and healing. I hope it’s good for you, too.
I don’t even drink coffee (or for that matter, consume ANYTHING with caffiene). Can you IMAGINE what I would be like if I had MORE energy. The earlier post came after a night of not being able to sleep. I think the word is punch drunk. No, wait, that’s not the word. Tired and giddy maybe?
Stunned, I think either Jim or Kris suggested setting up a special anonymous e-mail address if you don’t want to spread your regular one around. I haven’t done that — I’ve posted under my real name before and my identity is no secret since if you click on my name it links to my blog.
Hey, if you were from the Philly church, did you ever get to hear the Reilly band? They really rock on the violins. Enjoyed their concert at Metro a while back.
Poor Stunned…I hate sleepless nights. No, I can’t imagine you + caffene + all your energy. Wish I had half of what you have, lucky thing. Hope the next night was better.
If you and Lisa want to hook up, she can email me at the women’s gmail address: aftersgm@gmail.com, and I can help out.
Monikers are such a funny thing! I had fun trying to pick one, and even though I am old, ok really old, this is a bit of a coming out party. No, I did not buy a new dress, but who needs an excuse! J Since our release from Metro Life Church is now nothing more than a mere formality, { we have been on a 6 month sabbatical , just sent out the email to the leadership team informing them of our departure, and we now have a new home church} I can hopefully, from a very personal perspective, approach some of the issues on the blog. I have been following the musings and pains here on occasion but not religiously over the past year plus. I had a lot of reading to do! < My eyes hurt!> Stunned its 5 am, I have you beat girl!
My heart breaks for those who are still unpacking all of this. During this journey, I would { we would} say I WANT MY OLD CHURCH BACK! Dumb, I know that now. There is no such thing as status quo in the Kingdom of God. I have said to my husband many times that I can now see why some people never step foot in a church again. The pain can be overwhelming. It is like a divorce on steroids. Can I say don’t let anything or anyone steal the joy that God has for you in a local church! There is joy in the journey! There IS life past SGM and it is not meant to mirror what you came from only what God now has for you! I am experiencing it and it is because of who God is and his love for me, and YOU! I also realize that many here have come from other SGM churches and may have had different experiences. In my { our} sum total of almost 22 years, we came to the point that we knew things were very wrong, especially after our post August Family Meeting get togethers with members of the leadership team. Within that year we had also felt God calling us to go. That was His providential care for us. We kept that to ourselves as we sought God as to the “what, when, where and the why”. My biggest challenge here is in the entire reading of the “So Metro” page {as well as other Refuge blogs} the whole journey became very personal and quite painful for me. Our son experienced being poorly treated at a Celebration conference that almost pole vaulted him out of the church. After that incident he would show up late if ever and only at our insistence because he lived at home. It was a terrible witness to his then girlfriend who came to Celebration because we paid for her to go. She stayed in the girl’s cabin because I wanted her to EXPERIENCE what church life was really like. We did that because our first experience at Metro was the Celebration conference at UCF decades ago. From that experience we fell in love with the church and the people. What a huge mistake it was inviting our now daughter in law to see the results of what this caused in my son in his heart. What a TERRIBLE witness that whole fiasco was for her. What was worse was what my son saw acted out by his older peers in the church. He was spiritually bullied. Until this point I have had no desire to engage this but to say Jim, you had no reason to apologize to Joey. That whole weekend was a nightmare for us as parents. We were guilty of allowing our son that level of spiritual abuse, but because of the source, we never rocked the tree hard enough. We were taught not to. Fear of man in a terrible thing! Joey did try to call my son several months ago. I would assume after that blog post. {We knew about it because we had email communication issues with Joey as well, so it made us aware of what going on in blog land.} My son had informed me of the call. I asked him again what exactly what happened that night, and encouraged him to call Joey back. By this time he and my daughter in law already left Metro. He wanted nothing to do with it. I can say after reading the accounts as well as that of the other young man that it is all true. The only thing left out would be how it affected my son’s now bride and how she, a non member and outsider at that time, witnessed nepotism in the church. PK ‘s have the potential to be a dangerous breed.
We were one of those couples who met with leadership on more than one occasion and were shut down when wanting to be used. We were told by old home group leaders, some who have left the church that they were told not to use my husband if he ever asked. I got to the point that we would chose a home group based on who gave it pastoral oversight hoping for someone who had faith in us. We were proactive in wanting to be used and made it known; couples counseling, beta class for new believers, home group leadership, and teaching hospitality. We asked, wanted to be considered, be submitted, be taught and groomed. We requested to be trained and equipped. We felt like we were constantly shelved. When we met with leadership, we got told not to “toot our own horn, let another man recognize your gifts” or everything we brought to them was full of sin. Even some home group leaders sang the same song when you approached them about anything. You are just “full of pride” if you questioned them or refuted their thoughts. We get it, we are full of sin. I am a worm, and Jesus must still be in the tomb. I am sure you get my point.
We loved our leadership so much that we supplanted our ability to hear God for what we thought was God speaking through them. We did all that because they walked us through so much garbage {sin, and not just a little, horrendous things, for which we are grateful} in our lives; we felt their assessment of us as a couple had to be correct. L In all of that we forgot the finished work of Jesus on the cross for us and in our own lives. We forgot God’s assessment of us when we repent! We felt like we were forever in purgatory, to use an Old Catholic phrase. Sound a bit codependent? { I do hate that term} It was the pull of closeness, family as in church family, deep relationships that spanned many years, and love of those folks that kept us there. When Danny “left” but not “left” things changed radically. It still breaks my heart to see what has and is still happening. Since I FB’d about our now permanent departure, I cannot begin to tell you the amount of people struggling with staying in their SGM church, not just in Orlando, but all over. For us who were at Celebrations and regular conference goers, as well as worship conferences, the relationships we have reach far past just the Florida churches. We are far from the only SGM church affected. Someone here said it in one of the other blogs postings. Principle and Practice just do not match.
I am closing this chapter in the book of my life because another is and has opened. I pray for those left behind and the leadership at SGM. I pray for the walking wounded especially Pastor Todd, his grace filled wife Michelle and their awesome young men. They ushered in faith and grace when they arrived almost 8 years ago. That whole situation is a tragedy that SGM will never live down at this point in time. They are a living banner of the need for change. I would love to see that change and restoration take place in a VERY public way. That would require truth and real humility on the part of the team at Metro. SGM needs lots of men like Todd who lifted people up, encouraged even when confronting sin, and had faith for God to change our hearts.
I pray the blinders will come off and true, deep, heartfelt repentance that yields restoration and fruit will take place within the team left at Metro. I hope that if and when this happens certain members of the team will pick up the phone and seek out those who have left and repent for the spiritual abuse that has taken place by them as well as the level of arrogance and manipulation that has been used through the years when many, not just us, have sought God’s will in serving in the local church. I pray motives will be revealed and Metro will experience revival and not the destruction it may be headed for. Even as I post this past week another member has left and another family is considering leaving.
I personally know what it is like when self deception and your sin is so close you can’t see it, so it makes it easy to pray for these guys. I still and always will love them. This is God’s church. Please pray. I take that back. Fast, pray and travail for His church.
Now I have outted myself. I think I will buy that new dress. Look out Ross, here I come! J J/K
That seems to be that battle cry here by the Phillips Clan. Out yourself. I have no issue stating my name. More people should do the same. Fear the Lord and not man. What can man do to you? That is what we were taught. Although my name is no longer in the church directory, I am not hard to find. AgelessDebutante@aol.com Paula B. The B is for a reason. I would hate for my unsaved son who grew up at Metro and walked away from God to Google me and see all this. Not what I have to say, but about SGM as a whole. It would be a “I told you so “ I would rather not contend with.
STUNNED
“OK, so get this. Tomorrow, or rather in 5 hours, I’m going to the oldest horse show in the nation. To sit in a little private box next to disgustingly wealthy old money people. We all already know that I’m not going to fit in. So, here’s my question: do I wear my very modest-bought- it- in- the- inexpensive- nightgown –section- of- Marshalls- but- it- always –passes- for- a- preppy- little- dress outfit (but fear being busted for, after all, wearing a nightgown) or give up and wear jeans and a t-shirt in the 90+/high humidity? Ah, the trials of being a Frugal Collegian Hipster^^^ near the Main Line. ”
As a woman of fashion I say scrap them both and go for a loose fitting stappy sun dress and a simple wedge shoe. 90 plus is ugly heat. As for the rant I have a son about your age, I say PUT DOWN THAT RED BULL! LOL! that was a riot!
Quick question: your unsaved son and SGM. Do you think reading your post would be helpful to him or not, and why? Non-believers know hypocrisy when they see it.
Thanks, and I’m so glad you are finding joy and freedom!
DEBUTANT, I was going to email you with the same advice. So many people confuse Jesus with “the church”. I think an honest conversation would be very helpful.
Gandhi said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.”
While I disagree with Gandhi’s statement, I find it very helpful as I consider how we are perceived by unbelievers. Our behavior needs to be acknowledged, with the focus of the conversation then turning to the beauty and glory of Jesus, in Whom we have placed our trust.
I love the name! All I could think while reading your post was “wow”. I don’t have any words…just, WOW.
The Lord bless you. Thank you for sharing about how you are moving on. I am so encouraged to step out in some new things on the horizon just by reading your experience. R.T. and Jim have a really good point about your son. It can’t hurt to let him see that his discernment was correct, that it was the church who let him down, not our Great and Living God. Thank you again for your post!
Being on the outside looking in, is Todd a pastor who left SGM and who is being silent about his reasons for leaving?
Someone here said it’s critical to lean on God, not lean on a “church”.
When we left our “church” cult, it was like “In the beginning….there was God and God alone.”
We had nobody to lean on at all. No human to help. No one to understand.
In some ways that was the best part of leaving for it put us face to face with God.
I prayed God would just help us if we were sinning in leaving what appeared to be a most dysfunctional system. I cried out to God to keep us close and not let us go. I prayed for mercy and understanding and guidance.
We didn’t say a word to anyone about why we were leaving, except to the pastor. His response? “You won’t find another church that is any better.”
Smug and to the point.
What he didn’t realize is that by leaving the dysfunction behind, we now could better see God’s merciful kindness and that a relationship can be found in Christ. After all, if a time comes when I lose everyone around me and I am sitting in a dark place alone, it is He who will be with me. He won’t let go.
Welcome to the refuge. I really appreciate you being willing to share your experience with us.
The whole Joey story was so believable because it seemed to fit the exact same pattern I saw for years in my Philly church. Painful to watch. Excrutiating, really.
You’ll tell your son when you are ready and when he is ready. Let us know when you do and we’ll be praying. HARD.
Jim, Ghandi was so right in the spirit of what he was saying. Thanks for sharing it.
Stunned
PS. Debutante, What color of dress did you end up getting?
PPS. A LOOSE sundress?! Sorry, Girl, nothing loose in my closet for the past year. Middle age is hitting me hard. I was fine ’til 41, then bam! So I ended up with a very preppy, faded lime green, A-line skirt, complete with preppy little ribbon belt with a white thread running through it. Ahh, dull but appropriate. It would have been better without my extra plumpness. But it helped when my best friend showed up in her one year old maternity skirt and after a day of gorging ourselves she announced that her maternity skirt was tight. We died laughing. Oh, wait, I forgot to mention, I wore a short sleeve, white summer sweater. Ahem, sweater. Ahem… SWEATer. It was awful in the 90+, high humidity day. Heat rash. You heard it- heat rash.
Hey guys and thanks. HUGE HUGS to all. All to say briefly here we have walked our older son through an explaination of why we left minus all the drama. I agree with that statement Jim, there is a book out on the same topic, LOL! Actually it is hard for me to be upset. I have been enough of a boo boo head myself in life. I just do not get why some can not see past the nose on thier faces. I never really had the luxury of numerous people confronting me about my sin and shortsightedness in mass. When so many people are and have walked you would think it would make you have to wonder what is not being done right. Oh well!
I know the other Metro folks { and ex} that are posting here. Many of our closest friends are and feel called to stay, and thats ok. Someone has to stay and walk this through, I just knew it was not for us to do any longer.
As my new pastor said to us this past Sunday when we told him about our decision, Ok, now its time to get to work. I like that! I am ready to dig in to what God has for me to engage in. I want to put my feet to the gospel. i am so tired to sitting in an RTS class Sunday after Sunday and navel gazing the remainder of the week because I am not good enough to be used. I feel free! It is a wonderful feeling. As someone else in a much older old said, “when i read God’s word, it comes alive”. I was listening to a message last night by another author and he said loosely, I love walking through the book store of your church, there is nothing there I would not recommend, however did you stop reading the bible”.YES the bible. What a concept.
Patricia said, “In some ways that was the best part of leaving for it put us face to face with God.”
Patricia, that was beautiful. That seems to be what He really cares about, doesn’t it? If not, why would He have left His throne to come down here to suffer. For us. To be with us.
Yes, Stunned, and I think you added much to what I said when you said that’s why Christ left His throne to come down and suffer for our sins. Thankfully, He is risen and it’s only a matter of time before we see Him face to face again. What is most encouraging is that He intercedes for us now, and His love for us is sure.
STUNNED you crack me up! I am hitting 56 this year and I get the plump thing all too well! Been fighting it the past 6 years now. It keeps winning! Hope you had a great time at the horses!
PATRICIA I get what you are saying all too well. There are times when I would have thoughts of something happening without my old church family and I would get very uncomfortable. That’s An Understantment!
I have and have had a terrible health history the past 16 years and I think at times I wore some of those dear souls out! I would count myself among being very blessed with incredible relationships and have been heroically served during times of extended illness. When I was well I would look for every opportunity to serve the way I had been served. And then some.
God designed community life as we read in Acts, but when I put that thought process in place of my walk with God, that’s where I got into trouble. I LOVE my old church family. They were and are some of the finest folks I have ever known or will know. However, they can not take the place of Jesus in my life. That, I think, is why God walks us through things that are just a Father- Daughter experiences. Or if your a guy, Father-Son. I could not let that “what if ” block my ability to hear God’s voice. I did not want fear to rule in my life. OH..those friends at Metro? They are still my friends thankfully! Still hang out and do things, but I know as we build in our new church home all that will change to an extent. It has to! There are only so many hours in a day. When it all shakes out it is God, and him alone. That’s a good thing! God’s direction in our leaving banishes all those “what if’s”. All this means that on one side of the coin God designed us to be in relationship. On the other side of the coin our relationships in relational churches should not take the place of the one we have with God. It is easy to mistake one for the other.
Thank you all for your concern for my older son. Pray. We see glimmers on the horizon. He has been more open about his life and, athough he is far from God, we see a loving Father calling him home. Time is only significant to me. It is not to the author of all time! I always remind myself of what a mess I was and God rescued me. If he can change me, anyone else is a cake walk LOL!
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH RT and JIM!
I do hate doing this at almost 3 am! Guys thanks for your ear about my older son. It was and is not as much about being burned by the church as it was none of this was the way he wanted to live. He said the magic words for mom and dad , but it was not in his heart. He and I have danced lightly on the why he walked away. You really can’t own something you never had. He never had it,and thats ok! Thats is what Jesus died for. I love the comfort of knowing I do not have to chase him around with a bible, stick a tract in his car door, or talk him into showing up for a service. God opens little doors here and there. God brings us to the end of ourselves and opens our eyes. I am just a little tool in God’s big tool box. There are times as a mom I WANT to be the whole box and the power drill as well! Yes, there are times when I draw him out and we unpack bits and pieces. Those are wonderful moments indeed!
“I love the comfort of knowing I do not have to chase him around with a bible, stick a tract in his car door, or talk him into showing up for a service. God opens little doors here and there. God brings us to the end of ourselves and opens our eyes. I am just a little tool in God’s big tool box. There are times as a mom I WANT to be the whole box and the power drill as well! Yes, there are times when I draw him out and we unpack bits and pieces. Those are wonderful moments indeed!”
Well said, DEBUTANTE…and so true!
Want to extend my welcome, as well.
- Kindred
(I’m a “power drill” by nature so I REALLY appreciated that comment. It’s a constant battle for me.)
Debutante,
Welcome from me as well. Like Kindred, I can also relate to the power drill temptation. I will pray for your son.
On another note, are there any current Metro members who can answer the question about change that Jim posed? Aside from Todd, what changes do you see? My PDI experience was at Metro many years ago. I have spent these years hoping and trusting that things had changed, while at the same time watching my sister and her family get torn up at another SGM location spanning another decade or so. I would be thrilled to hear of change in Orlando. I would be thrilled to be able to reconnect with old friends. We were only there for three years, over 20 years ago now, but were somewhat visible in the church at that time.
No changes I’ve seen, other than more empty seats on Sunday. Lots of activity and things to do (VBS, parenting classes, counseling training, evangelism classes, youth retreat, etc.) Rotating worship leaders (of which, Chris Jesse should get the job. He’s the only true worship leader they have now.) I’m not sure if things are going on behind the scenes as we’ve made the conscience effort to stay in the background. Our previous SGC experience taught us not to get too close to the inner workings. You just get burned.
“Collateral Damage June 4th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
No changes I’ve seen, other than more empty seats on Sunday. Lots of activity and things to do (VBS, parenting classes, counseling training, evangelism classes, youth retreat, etc.) Rotating worship leaders (of which, Chris Jesse should get the job. He’s the only true worship leader they have now.) I’m not sure if things are going on behind the scenes as we’ve made the conscience effort to stay in the background. Our previous SGC experience taught us not to get too close to the inner workings. You just get burned.’
CD,
I gotta ask you and you can email me, you do not have to answer here. We have both been around SGM since the day of the dinosaurs. Why stay if you feel that way? Is that not like the osttrich? If I keep my head in the sand long enough I won’t see the lion crouching to attack? There is no whole big enough CD! That is ” FEAR OF MAN” ! Get your head out of the sand and face off with the lions or find a new pasture to graze in. There is no life with your head in the sand. IF God has placed you at MLC and called you to stay , live like it! If fear of getting burned again is you motive, that is no motive and no way to live dear heart. Live in the fullness God has provided, not under the radar. agelessdebutante@aol.com
I have posted here before but wanted to open the door again to communication. If anyone has any questions of what happened in North Denver, to some degree I would be able to answer lots of questions. Charlie (my exhusband) was the Single’s Pastor (Intern for over 2 years) and we had attended since 1999. I know much has happened, and although I know much of others stories, I will only disclose my own. Also, to put away fears (as much as one can) I am not here to gossip or slander, but to speak the TRUTH. The truth is big enough and in this case (CJ Mahaney would agree) shocking enough to put any alarm bells on. So, once again, if you are looking for answers or clarity, dont hesitate to email me at robynstewart5@hotmail.com
God bless us and continue to protect us as we speak the TRUTH. Amen
Robyn Stewart (Marmon)
Robyn
There is a guy on the blog < go to the tab at the top CONCERNED>. He wrote in May 2010 and he is looking for anwers. You may want to repost this ofr him there. Sounds like he can use a hand walking through the maze. Some dear folks from MLC went to the Denver Church Plant and were terribly burned. I know enough about that but it was 5-6 years ago. Sounds like this is a now thing for this TforJC person. Hope you can help!
Debutante,
Which Denver church plant are you referring to?
I was in the South Denver Church plant and do know of one couple that came from MLC, and yes they were burned too.
Is that who you are referring to, or are there more?
Robyn was (If I read her correctly) talking of the NORTH Denver church.
I might assume that some might not be aware that there were two Denver church plants, North and South. (And yes, problems occurred at both.)
DEFENDER
The person that wrote on the tab at the top of the page that says CONCERNED? is TforJC. He is the one asking all the questions and has blogged on that thread. You may me able to help him out as well! Check that page. Yes we had friend that left on that church plant from MLC the “J”‘s at the South Plant. They have helped us a great deal walking us through some of the issues we had been walking through at MLC since we knew them back in the day.
Robyn blogged on the CONCERNED thread for TforJC. See if you can shed some light for him as well there.
Interesting 15 page read from Chris Lee, Executive Director for 30 years, the Boston Church of Christ/International Churches of Christ
Things that make you go HMMMMMM. http://www.reveal.org/library/.....0years.pdf
The date has changed and verbiage from some on the top has changed.
If Metro remains a SGM “church,” can they really change much from the “mother ship” and remain a SGM “church?”
G.D.,
Not unless the “mother ship” changes as well. Should we look for more “de-giftings”?
Canary–we can never tell with SGM. My gut tells me that they will do whatever it takes to protect the mother ship and all of its off springs. That sounds cynical, I know, but I have been around organized religion too long to look at this with fresh eyes. Age does that, you know.
Our hope is in Christ alone.
Where is the cat? Did he die or something?
G.D.,
I sent my cat on a long vacation. Really long…
Canary, LOL definitely!
The “Godfather” still rules from the mothership.
(With cotton balls in his cheeks.) CJ has made an offer Metro can’t refuse, lest the Shankster show up and preform a degifting.
Just my opinion, but I’d put money on it (If I had any.)
I truly believe there is a contract of some sort, that dictates how a given church will operate while under the control of CJ & Co.
If not, then any congregation can just thumb their noses at the naked emperor and do as they are guided by God.
Right? (Or have the congregations been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of life without SGM leadership?)
No comment now — just signing in to get the followup comments in my inbox…
Aside from losing Todd?
5 homegroup leaders left the church as well as at least 20 other families. The families that left had been there 15 or more years, with over 5 having spent 20+ years at Metro. The response from leadership has become “well, Metro isn’t the church for everyone.” So sad that so many families with so many years invested in a fellowship with decades of friendships can be so casually dismissed like a traveling salesman being turned away at the door with his unsold Fuller Brushes.
There are at least 30 other families “on the fence ” waiting to see if anything will change. Here’s some change for you. The pastor that admitted to being proud and unapproachable is now teaching counseling at the church. (And in global news, Iran is on the UN Human Rights Council)
Had Todd decided to stay in Orlando and start a church he would have had over 200 people on his first Sunday, but his integrity wouldn’t let him do that.
Todd, if you are reading (like I know everyone else at SGM is) please reconsider, you were Pastor to many at Metro and those left behind feel the loss.
“have the congregations been brainwashed into thinking that they are incapable of life without SGM leadership?”
Afraid that the answer to this is likely yes. Can’t imagine our former congregation rising up to lead from within if a crisis arose, all eyes would look to MD for guidance. The people are taught to be unquestioningly submissive, that doesn’t lend itself to revolutionary (biblical) thought. It leads to dependence, as with a small child.
Hope
Hope,
You so definitely nailed it! We have some friends left from our ex-SGM “church,” and they are afraid to even discuss benign events with us. They are afraid of slipping into gossip or slander. They have been sooooo conditioned that discussion with them about what’s wrong inside the SG walls is OFF LIMITS–period.
Hope,
I remember that – it was like unending adolescence – we were never really allowed to grow up, to mature in the faith, because the leadership did most of the work of ministry. Why grow up when the parent takes care of everything? I had to leave pdi to mature in the faith, turning to Jesus as my Teacher. It wasn’t easy – I was amazed at how much unbelief there still was in my heart (though my mind was filled with doctrine). This hard road led to ultimate freedom from fear and many other snares.
Good point you bring up – in the absence of pastors, how would sgm folks make it on their own (there are exceptions, I’m sure)?
G.D.,
The gossip/slander thing kept us from speaking out after we left. My husband and I were still confused about what was happening. I now see that it would have been okay to tell others of our experience…if anyone had bothered to call and ask. Ha! They were probably afraid to gossip/slander by asking us what happened!
I don’t know Todd. I do know what it is like to be disillusioned by pdi/sgm. If only there had been a pastor around at the time who knew what we were going through, who could have pulled us all together (those who left) to show us the true love of God. I believe Todd would be doing the people he loved and served a great favor by being there for them, helping them heal and regroup. This would not put his integrity into question, only highlight his love for the sheep. Heck, the pastor I use to follow took half his old church with him when he left the Baptist church he was assistant pastor in…no stone throwing from this guy!
I’m trying to say that I remember the misery and loneliness I and others went through as we had to work through the devastation of betrayal. We wondered what doctrines were true, what ones needed to be thrown out. There were many tears, sleepless nights, even physical infirmities as we worked through our experiences. The Lord was faithful (though I know a few folks who fell away). How much easier it would have been to have a man of faith explain, comfort, and pray for us.
So Todd looking after the sheep he has labored over doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me. It’s the peoples’ choice, not leadership of sgm. They are free to leave and go where they wish, just as Todd is free to care for the people of God in whatever way he is called to. Someone needs to look after the wounded sheep. Someone needs to have the heart to leave the 99 to go after the one! If people have left Metro Life, then I gaurantee they are having a difficult time in their spirits. There is confusion, pain, and any number of other emotions going on. Someone needs to help them!
Sadly there is little to talk about with our ex-SGM “church” friend, mainly because our commonality was that particular SG “church,” especially. Our common joy and excitement should be based on the Lord Jesus, Abba, and the LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us. Unfortunately, that too causes strain because we have gone in another direction theologically from SGM. They are so afraid to even consider thinking outside the SGM theological box for fear of drifting into “heresy.” They pretty much feel the need to check with their pastor on practically everything–you know, the “covering thing.”
They see their pastors as protection–I see them as oppressive: where to live, what to read, how and how much to spend, how to date (oops court), who to marry, how to interact with your neighbor, how to bring an “observation,” how to “correct,” where to send your kids to school or to send them at all, how many to have, and the list goes on endlessly.
Better stop, I am having flash backs!
G.D.,
“Our common joy and excitement should be based on the Lord Jesus, Abba, and the LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us. ”
I couldn’t have put it better.
My heart leaped for Joy when I read that.
THANKS!
Defender, you couldn’t have put it any better?! Brotha, I don’t even know what it means.
“LIVING Paraclete whom Jesus sent to us”. Darn it GD, now I have to go look up paraclete on dictionary.com. (Thank heavens I have a touch of ADD so will get distracted before I get there or it’ll start getting a little too high brow around here. You need to keep me ignorant in order to bring down the average IQ on this site. Making it accesible to regular folk and all that.)
Stunned,
Isn’t a paraclete part of my bird family…a cousin of sorts????
Yeah like a Dove.
No Canary, paracletes are what a baseball player puts on his feet before taking the field.
Paul,
Ha-ha! I stand corrected…
Falling out of my chair laughing…..Canary’s cousin? Pair of cleats?
Paraclete = Advocate, Lawyer, Defender.
The Greek word Jesus used in John 14:16 when he said He would send a Helper. In some versions the word translated is Comforter.
The Holy Spirit of God.
(I’m not that smart. I only learned this a few weeks ago listening to R. C. Sproul’s radio show. And, yes Stunned you do need a dictionary when you listen to, or read Sproul.)
Main Entry: Par·a·clete
Pronunciation: \ˈpa-rə-ˌklēt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Paraclyte, from Late Latin Paracletus, Paraclitus, from Greek Paraklētos, literally, advocate, intercessor, from parakalein to invoke, from para- + kalein to call — more at low
Date: 15th century
Paul, thank you. By the time I got to “literally” I was lost, though.
Like I said, we need outliers* like me to keep the IQ average closer to the norm**.
*Hmmm, now that I think about it, are outliers included in averages or are they culled from the stats because they are, after all, outliers?
** ‘Cause I’m all about street cred and keepin’ it real.***
*** Yes, that would be my lily white way of saying I grew up in upper-middle class suburbia and still think I’m being somewhat ironic in a hipster**** like fashion.
**** So I just took this “Christian hipster” test because it’s 4 freaking 30 in the morning and what else are you going to do at 4 freaking 30 in the morning and I was all happy to discover that I scored very low (hurray for not falling into the Christian-who-moved-to-the-city-to-love-its-inhabitants*****-hipster-trap-even though my church is chock full of hipsters …wait, what the heck was I saying? Right, hurray for not falling into the cool-Christian-hipster trap******.)
***** Or was it just because I went to school here and got stuck?
******OK, so I have to admit that I was somewhat horrified to find that I actually do fall into the “Bookish Intellectual Hipster” category, closely followed by the “Frugal Collegian Hipster”**********. Really? What the heck kind of world is this world coming to if a middle aged woman falls into a hipster category?
*******Can an overuse/over love********** of footnotes indicate a longing for a return to academics (bite your tongue, Stunned and stop snickering, RT!) or just the love of asterexes********?
******** Aster-i?
*********OK, so get this. Tomorrow, or rather in 5 hours, I’m going to the oldest horse show in the nation. To sit in a little private box next to disgustingly wealthy old money people. We all already know that I’m not going to fit in. So, here’s my question: do I wear my very modest-bought- it- in- the- inexpensive- nightgown –section- of- Marshalls- but- it- always –passes- for- a- preppy- little- dress outfit (but fear being busted for, after all, wearing a nightgown) or give up and wear jeans and a t-shirt in the 90+/high humidity? Ah, the trials of being a Frugal Collegian Hipster^^^ near the Main Line.
********** Seriously? Have you really been able to count these many asterexes/aster-i? That is either amazing or you should consider getting a “job” in a casino counting cards and gambling a la rain man. Pray I don’t have any more sleepless nights or I’ll ruin Jim’s refuge with pointless non-sequitters.
^^^ (^^^^)Which really means that I graduated a year ago but am still broke. I just much more prefer the panache of “Frugal Collegian Hipster” than “broke-ex college student”.
^^^^ Yes, I really just did footnote my footnotes. Just to say, did you notice that I changed the indicators to carets^^^^^ instead of those little stars? Yeah, that’s the way I like to roll. OK, that was a lie, I couldn’t count anymore stars so started over with carets.
^^^^^ Yes, I really did look up the proper way to spell editing carets. What else are you going to do at (now) 5 freaking am in the morning. (Ok, so “am” on its own would indicate morning, but I’m TIREDDDDD!)
G.D.,
I woke up this morning thinking of your “Dove” comparison to paraclete…my little bird brain may take its time in working, but I got it! Dove – paraclete – Holy Spirit! So I come on here so proud of my little yellow self only to see that Defender and Paul have already explained the meaning of the word. Dang, I wanted to show off…
Okay Stunned, dear. Put down the coffee cup and step away from the Mr. Coffee Machine…:)
Canary, Your conclusions are spot on. You did good!
Stunned,
I think you used up all the Aster-i Jim has for this thread.
Perhaps we can take up an offering to send to Jim to purchase more from the Aster-i factory.
;>}
Canary,
Yes, that was the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) instructing you.
You see, are not just a simple little bird.
You are His possession, and have the mind of Christ.
Happy Memorial Day everybody!
I love living near Buckley AFB. The F-16′s come down here and form up to do their Memorial Day fly-by’s and we get our own personal air show on the Holiday’s.
With thankfulness and gratitude to our veterans, God bless our troops!
And God bless the United States of America!
(With “Stars and Stripes Forever” playing in the background.)
Thanks, G.D. (as I’m preening my feathers)…
Defender, yep my Paraclete is such a great instructor…we had a military plane flying over our area for a Memorial Day Remembrance. We get to see planes all the time flying from the Airforce Base. Some of those big ones fly low over our houses – man, they are like whales in the sky! Everybody remember those who gave their all for our freedoms. God Bless America.
If its ok with CJ and dem… I think you should go with the preppy outfit…ENJOY..loved your post…
Hi,
Been reading for a while, but first time posting.
Stunned – my parents used to take the family to the Devon Horse Show. I was more excited than anything to see Larry Ferrari play the organ- forget the horses! Maybe you can recommend a church in the area. I feel disconnected to the Sov. Grace church I attend (and maybe you attended at one time?) Like Kris says over at Survivors, it’s something I can’t quite put my finger on, but I know it’s there.
Hi Lisa,
Someone else in the area! Wooop Wooop! Are you out near Devon now or elsewhere? I’m living in Philly now and can recommend a church there but don’t know where to tell you in the burbs. Yes, I was a HUGE part of the SGM church in the burbs for 15 years. Or rather, I should say, it was a large part of my life. I know what you mean about not being able to put your finger on something and I know how painful that can be. You probably love a lot of the people there. (I still think a lot of them are pretty amazing. Though a couple are down right nutters but it took me a long time to recognize that as it’s so easy to get caught up in the craziness of things.) It can take a long lonely time to build relationships in new churches even once you have decided to go to one. I can only tell you I have never regretted leaving Cov Fel, even though it was absolutely heartbreaking to go. Heartbreaking.
I wish I could have a way to contact you, but for certain reasons I don’t feel safe giving out my email publically. I think that if Kris over at SGM Survivors is feeling in an especially good mood and if we ask really nicely, she would be willing to send you my email address and we can email each other if you want to talk more about your experience or what you’re thinking about. Or for you to ask any questions you want. I’ll shoot her an email and see if she would be so kind. Then if you shoot her one, maybe she’ll give us the other’s email.
Larry Ferari! Wow, you are def from this area, Girl!
Thanks for posting and sharing a bit about yourself. This place and Survivors have been a place of help and healing. I hope it’s good for you, too.
Stunned
Canary,
I don’t even drink coffee (or for that matter, consume ANYTHING with caffiene). Can you IMAGINE what I would be like if I had MORE energy. The earlier post came after a night of not being able to sleep. I think the word is punch drunk. No, wait, that’s not the word. Tired and giddy maybe?
Stunned, I think either Jim or Kris suggested setting up a special anonymous e-mail address if you don’t want to spread your regular one around. I haven’t done that — I’ve posted under my real name before and my identity is no secret since if you click on my name it links to my blog.
Hey, if you were from the Philly church, did you ever get to hear the Reilly band? They really rock on the violins. Enjoyed their concert at Metro a while back.
MetroStill
Poor Stunned…I hate sleepless nights. No, I can’t imagine you + caffene + all your energy. Wish I had half of what you have, lucky thing. Hope the next night was better.
If you and Lisa want to hook up, she can email me at the women’s gmail address: aftersgm@gmail.com, and I can help out.
Monikers are such a funny thing! I had fun trying to pick one, and even though I am old, ok really old, this is a bit of a coming out party. No, I did not buy a new dress, but who needs an excuse! J Since our release from Metro Life Church is now nothing more than a mere formality, { we have been on a 6 month sabbatical , just sent out the email to the leadership team informing them of our departure, and we now have a new home church} I can hopefully, from a very personal perspective, approach some of the issues on the blog. I have been following the musings and pains here on occasion but not religiously over the past year plus. I had a lot of reading to do! < My eyes hurt!> Stunned its 5 am, I have you beat girl!
My heart breaks for those who are still unpacking all of this. During this journey, I would { we would} say I WANT MY OLD CHURCH BACK! Dumb, I know that now. There is no such thing as status quo in the Kingdom of God. I have said to my husband many times that I can now see why some people never step foot in a church again. The pain can be overwhelming. It is like a divorce on steroids. Can I say don’t let anything or anyone steal the joy that God has for you in a local church! There is joy in the journey! There IS life past SGM and it is not meant to mirror what you came from only what God now has for you! I am experiencing it and it is because of who God is and his love for me, and YOU! I also realize that many here have come from other SGM churches and may have had different experiences. In my { our} sum total of almost 22 years, we came to the point that we knew things were very wrong, especially after our post August Family Meeting get togethers with members of the leadership team. Within that year we had also felt God calling us to go. That was His providential care for us. We kept that to ourselves as we sought God as to the “what, when, where and the why”.
My biggest challenge here is in the entire reading of the “So Metro” page {as well as other Refuge blogs} the whole journey became very personal and quite painful for me. Our son experienced being poorly treated at a Celebration conference that almost pole vaulted him out of the church. After that incident he would show up late if ever and only at our insistence because he lived at home. It was a terrible witness to his then girlfriend who came to Celebration because we paid for her to go. She stayed in the girl’s cabin because I wanted her to EXPERIENCE what church life was really like. We did that because our first experience at Metro was the Celebration conference at UCF decades ago. From that experience we fell in love with the church and the people. What a huge mistake it was inviting our now daughter in law to see the results of what this caused in my son in his heart. What a TERRIBLE witness that whole fiasco was for her. What was worse was what my son saw acted out by his older peers in the church. He was spiritually bullied. Until this point I have had no desire to engage this but to say Jim, you had no reason to apologize to Joey. That whole weekend was a nightmare for us as parents. We were guilty of allowing our son that level of spiritual abuse, but because of the source, we never rocked the tree hard enough. We were taught not to. Fear of man in a terrible thing! Joey did try to call my son several months ago. I would assume after that blog post. {We knew about it because we had email communication issues with Joey as well, so it made us aware of what going on in blog land.} My son had informed me of the call. I asked him again what exactly what happened that night, and encouraged him to call Joey back. By this time he and my daughter in law already left Metro. He wanted nothing to do with it. I can say after reading the accounts as well as that of the other young man that it is all true. The only thing left out would be how it affected my son’s now bride and how she, a non member and outsider at that time, witnessed nepotism in the church. PK ‘s have the potential to be a dangerous breed.
We were one of those couples who met with leadership on more than one occasion and were shut down when wanting to be used. We were told by old home group leaders, some who have left the church that they were told not to use my husband if he ever asked. I got to the point that we would chose a home group based on who gave it pastoral oversight hoping for someone who had faith in us. We were proactive in wanting to be used and made it known; couples counseling, beta class for new believers, home group leadership, and teaching hospitality. We asked, wanted to be considered, be submitted, be taught and groomed. We requested to be trained and equipped. We felt like we were constantly shelved. When we met with leadership, we got told not to “toot our own horn, let another man recognize your gifts” or everything we brought to them was full of sin. Even some home group leaders sang the same song when you approached them about anything. You are just “full of pride” if you questioned them or refuted their thoughts. We get it, we are full of sin. I am a worm, and Jesus must still be in the tomb. I am sure you get my point.
We loved our leadership so much that we supplanted our ability to hear God for what we thought was God speaking through them. We did all that because they walked us through so much garbage {sin, and not just a little, horrendous things, for which we are grateful} in our lives; we felt their assessment of us as a couple had to be correct. L In all of that we forgot the finished work of Jesus on the cross for us and in our own lives. We forgot God’s assessment of us when we repent! We felt like we were forever in purgatory, to use an Old Catholic phrase. Sound a bit codependent? { I do hate that term} It was the pull of closeness, family as in church family, deep relationships that spanned many years, and love of those folks that kept us there. When Danny “left” but not “left” things changed radically. It still breaks my heart to see what has and is still happening. Since I FB’d about our now permanent departure, I cannot begin to tell you the amount of people struggling with staying in their SGM church, not just in Orlando, but all over. For us who were at Celebrations and regular conference goers, as well as worship conferences, the relationships we have reach far past just the Florida churches. We are far from the only SGM church affected. Someone here said it in one of the other blogs postings. Principle and Practice just do not match.
I am closing this chapter in the book of my life because another is and has opened. I pray for those left behind and the leadership at SGM. I pray for the walking wounded especially Pastor Todd, his grace filled wife Michelle and their awesome young men. They ushered in faith and grace when they arrived almost 8 years ago. That whole situation is a tragedy that SGM will never live down at this point in time. They are a living banner of the need for change. I would love to see that change and restoration take place in a VERY public way. That would require truth and real humility on the part of the team at Metro. SGM needs lots of men like Todd who lifted people up, encouraged even when confronting sin, and had faith for God to change our hearts.
I pray the blinders will come off and true, deep, heartfelt repentance that yields restoration and fruit will take place within the team left at Metro. I hope that if and when this happens certain members of the team will pick up the phone and seek out those who have left and repent for the spiritual abuse that has taken place by them as well as the level of arrogance and manipulation that has been used through the years when many, not just us, have sought God’s will in serving in the local church. I pray motives will be revealed and Metro will experience revival and not the destruction it may be headed for. Even as I post this past week another member has left and another family is considering leaving.
I personally know what it is like when self deception and your sin is so close you can’t see it, so it makes it easy to pray for these guys. I still and always will love them. This is God’s church. Please pray. I take that back. Fast, pray and travail for His church.
Now I have outted myself. I think I will buy that new dress. Look out Ross, here I come! J J/K
That seems to be that battle cry here by the Phillips Clan. Out yourself. I have no issue stating my name. More people should do the same. Fear the Lord and not man. What can man do to you? That is what we were taught. Although my name is no longer in the church directory, I am not hard to find. AgelessDebutante@aol.com Paula B. The B is for a reason. I would hate for my unsaved son who grew up at Metro and walked away from God to Google me and see all this. Not what I have to say, but about SGM as a whole. It would be a “I told you so “ I would rather not contend with.
STUNNED
“OK, so get this. Tomorrow, or rather in 5 hours, I’m going to the oldest horse show in the nation. To sit in a little private box next to disgustingly wealthy old money people. We all already know that I’m not going to fit in. So, here’s my question: do I wear my very modest-bought- it- in- the- inexpensive- nightgown –section- of- Marshalls- but- it- always –passes- for- a- preppy- little- dress outfit (but fear being busted for, after all, wearing a nightgown) or give up and wear jeans and a t-shirt in the 90+/high humidity? Ah, the trials of being a Frugal Collegian Hipster^^^ near the Main Line. ”
As a woman of fashion I say scrap them both and go for a loose fitting stappy sun dress and a simple wedge shoe. 90 plus is ugly heat. As for the rant I have a son about your age, I say PUT DOWN THAT RED BULL! LOL! that was a riot!
Debutante! Welcome!
Quick question: your unsaved son and SGM. Do you think reading your post would be helpful to him or not, and why? Non-believers know hypocrisy when they see it.
Thanks, and I’m so glad you are finding joy and freedom!
RT touched on it.
DEBUTANT, I was going to email you with the same advice. So many people confuse Jesus with “the church”. I think an honest conversation would be very helpful.
Gandhi said: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today.”
While I disagree with Gandhi’s statement, I find it very helpful as I consider how we are perceived by unbelievers. Our behavior needs to be acknowledged, with the focus of the conversation then turning to the beauty and glory of Jesus, in Whom we have placed our trust.
Debutante,
I love the name! All I could think while reading your post was “wow”. I don’t have any words…just, WOW.
The Lord bless you. Thank you for sharing about how you are moving on. I am so encouraged to step out in some new things on the horizon just by reading your experience. R.T. and Jim have a really good point about your son. It can’t hurt to let him see that his discernment was correct, that it was the church who let him down, not our Great and Living God. Thank you again for your post!
Being on the outside looking in, is Todd a pastor who left SGM and who is being silent about his reasons for leaving?
Someone here said it’s critical to lean on God, not lean on a “church”.
When we left our “church” cult, it was like “In the beginning….there was God and God alone.”
We had nobody to lean on at all. No human to help. No one to understand.
In some ways that was the best part of leaving for it put us face to face with God.
I prayed God would just help us if we were sinning in leaving what appeared to be a most dysfunctional system. I cried out to God to keep us close and not let us go. I prayed for mercy and understanding and guidance.
We didn’t say a word to anyone about why we were leaving, except to the pastor. His response? “You won’t find another church that is any better.”
Smug and to the point.
What he didn’t realize is that by leaving the dysfunction behind, we now could better see God’s merciful kindness and that a relationship can be found in Christ. After all, if a time comes when I lose everyone around me and I am sitting in a dark place alone, it is He who will be with me. He won’t let go.
DEBUTANTE,
Welcome to the refuge. I really appreciate you being willing to share your experience with us.
The whole Joey story was so believable because it seemed to fit the exact same pattern I saw for years in my Philly church. Painful to watch. Excrutiating, really.
You’ll tell your son when you are ready and when he is ready. Let us know when you do and we’ll be praying. HARD.
Jim, Ghandi was so right in the spirit of what he was saying. Thanks for sharing it.
Stunned
PS. Debutante, What color of dress did you end up getting?
PPS. A LOOSE sundress?! Sorry, Girl, nothing loose in my closet for the past year.
Middle age is hitting me hard. I was fine ’til 41, then bam! So I ended up with a very preppy, faded lime green, A-line skirt, complete with preppy little ribbon belt with a white thread running through it. Ahh, dull but appropriate. It would have been better without my extra plumpness. But it helped when my best friend showed up in her one year old maternity skirt and after a day of gorging ourselves she announced that her maternity skirt was tight. We died laughing. Oh, wait, I forgot to mention, I wore a short sleeve, white summer sweater. Ahem, sweater. Ahem… SWEATer. It was awful in the 90+, high humidity day. Heat rash. You heard it- heat rash.
Hey guys and thanks. HUGE HUGS to all. All to say briefly here we have walked our older son through an explaination of why we left minus all the drama. I agree with that statement Jim, there is a book out on the same topic, LOL! Actually it is hard for me to be upset. I have been enough of a boo boo head myself in life. I just do not get why some can not see past the nose on thier faces. I never really had the luxury of numerous people confronting me about my sin and shortsightedness in mass. When so many people are and have walked you would think it would make you have to wonder what is not being done right. Oh well!
I know the other Metro folks { and ex} that are posting here. Many of our closest friends are and feel called to stay, and thats ok. Someone has to stay and walk this through, I just knew it was not for us to do any longer.
As my new pastor said to us this past Sunday when we told him about our decision, Ok, now its time to get to work. I like that! I am ready to dig in to what God has for me to engage in. I want to put my feet to the gospel. i am so tired to sitting in an RTS class Sunday after Sunday and navel gazing the remainder of the week because I am not good enough to be used. I feel free! It is a wonderful feeling. As someone else in a much older old said, “when i read God’s word, it comes alive”. I was listening to a message last night by another author and he said loosely, I love walking through the book store of your church, there is nothing there I would not recommend, however did you stop reading the bible”.YES the bible. What a concept.
Debutante — You’re my new best friend. You have my utmost admiration!
Patricia said, “In some ways that was the best part of leaving for it put us face to face with God.”
Patricia, that was beautiful. That seems to be what He really cares about, doesn’t it? If not, why would He have left His throne to come down here to suffer. For us. To be with us.
Yes, Stunned, and I think you added much to what I said when you said that’s why Christ left His throne to come down and suffer for our sins. Thankfully, He is risen and it’s only a matter of time before we see Him face to face again. What is most encouraging is that He intercedes for us now, and His love for us is sure.
AWE!!!!!!!!!! NICKNAME THANKS!!!!!!!!!
STUNNED you crack me up! I am hitting 56 this year and I get the plump thing all too well! Been fighting it the past 6 years now. It keeps winning! Hope you had a great time at the horses!
PATRICIA I get what you are saying all too well. There are times when I would have thoughts of something happening without my old church family and I would get very uncomfortable. That’s An Understantment!
I have and have had a terrible health history the past 16 years and I think at times I wore some of those dear souls out! I would count myself among being very blessed with incredible relationships and have been heroically served during times of extended illness. When I was well I would look for every opportunity to serve the way I had been served. And then some.
God designed community life as we read in Acts, but when I put that thought process in place of my walk with God, that’s where I got into trouble. I LOVE my old church family. They were and are some of the finest folks I have ever known or will know. However, they can not take the place of Jesus in my life. That, I think, is why God walks us through things that are just a Father- Daughter experiences. Or if your a guy, Father-Son. I could not let that “what if ” block my ability to hear God’s voice. I did not want fear to rule in my life. OH..those friends at Metro? They are still my friends thankfully! Still hang out and do things, but I know as we build in our new church home all that will change to an extent. It has to! There are only so many hours in a day. When it all shakes out it is God, and him alone. That’s a good thing! God’s direction in our leaving banishes all those “what if’s”. All this means that on one side of the coin God designed us to be in relationship. On the other side of the coin our relationships in relational churches should not take the place of the one we have with God. It is easy to mistake one for the other.
Thank you all for your concern for my older son. Pray. We see glimmers on the horizon. He has been more open about his life and, athough he is far from God, we see a loving Father calling him home. Time is only significant to me. It is not to the author of all time! I always remind myself of what a mess I was and God rescued me. If he can change me, anyone else is a cake walk LOL!
OHHHHHHHHHHHHH RT and JIM!
I do hate doing this at almost 3 am! Guys thanks for your ear about my older son. It was and is not as much about being burned by the church as it was none of this was the way he wanted to live. He said the magic words for mom and dad , but it was not in his heart. He and I have danced lightly on the why he walked away. You really can’t own something you never had. He never had it,and thats ok! Thats is what Jesus died for. I love the comfort of knowing I do not have to chase him around with a bible, stick a tract in his car door, or talk him into showing up for a service. God opens little doors here and there. God brings us to the end of ourselves and opens our eyes. I am just a little tool in God’s big tool box. There are times as a mom I WANT to be the whole box and the power drill as well! Yes, there are times when I draw him out and we unpack bits and pieces. Those are wonderful moments indeed!
“I love the comfort of knowing I do not have to chase him around with a bible, stick a tract in his car door, or talk him into showing up for a service. God opens little doors here and there. God brings us to the end of ourselves and opens our eyes. I am just a little tool in God’s big tool box. There are times as a mom I WANT to be the whole box and the power drill as well! Yes, there are times when I draw him out and we unpack bits and pieces. Those are wonderful moments indeed!”
Well said, DEBUTANTE…and so true!
Want to extend my welcome, as well.
- Kindred
(I’m a “power drill” by nature so I REALLY appreciated that comment. It’s a constant battle for me.)
Debutante,
Welcome from me as well. Like Kindred, I can also relate to the power drill temptation. I will pray for your son.
On another note, are there any current Metro members who can answer the question about change that Jim posed? Aside from Todd, what changes do you see? My PDI experience was at Metro many years ago. I have spent these years hoping and trusting that things had changed, while at the same time watching my sister and her family get torn up at another SGM location spanning another decade or so. I would be thrilled to hear of change in Orlando. I would be thrilled to be able to reconnect with old friends. We were only there for three years, over 20 years ago now, but were somewhat visible in the church at that time.
No changes I’ve seen, other than more empty seats on Sunday. Lots of activity and things to do (VBS, parenting classes, counseling training, evangelism classes, youth retreat, etc.) Rotating worship leaders (of which, Chris Jesse should get the job. He’s the only true worship leader they have now.) I’m not sure if things are going on behind the scenes as we’ve made the conscience effort to stay in the background. Our previous SGC experience taught us not to get too close to the inner workings. You just get burned.
“Collateral Damage
June 4th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
No changes I’ve seen, other than more empty seats on Sunday. Lots of activity and things to do (VBS, parenting classes, counseling training, evangelism classes, youth retreat, etc.) Rotating worship leaders (of which, Chris Jesse should get the job. He’s the only true worship leader they have now.) I’m not sure if things are going on behind the scenes as we’ve made the conscience effort to stay in the background. Our previous SGC experience taught us not to get too close to the inner workings. You just get burned.’
CD,
I gotta ask you and you can email me, you do not have to answer here. We have both been around SGM since the day of the dinosaurs. Why stay if you feel that way? Is that not like the osttrich? If I keep my head in the sand long enough I won’t see the lion crouching to attack? There is no whole big enough CD! That is ” FEAR OF MAN” ! Get your head out of the sand and face off with the lions or find a new pasture to graze in. There is no life with your head in the sand. IF God has placed you at MLC and called you to stay , live like it! If fear of getting burned again is you motive, that is no motive and no way to live dear heart. Live in the fullness God has provided, not under the radar. agelessdebutante@aol.com
HEY GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Has any one looked under the “CONCERNED” tab at the top lately? There is a post by
TforJC
May 15th, 2010 at 1:09 am
Wow this is not good!
Debutante,
I am going to bed now, and will pray for your son when my head hits the pillow. God is gracious, and not willing to lose any of his people.
It’s so good to have you here.
RT ..
Thanks… great to be here.
To Debutante and Anyone else
I have posted here before but wanted to open the door again to communication. If anyone has any questions of what happened in North Denver, to some degree I would be able to answer lots of questions. Charlie (my exhusband) was the Single’s Pastor (Intern for over 2 years) and we had attended since 1999. I know much has happened, and although I know much of others stories, I will only disclose my own. Also, to put away fears (as much as one can) I am not here to gossip or slander, but to speak the TRUTH. The truth is big enough and in this case (CJ Mahaney would agree) shocking enough to put any alarm bells on. So, once again, if you are looking for answers or clarity, dont hesitate to email me at robynstewart5@hotmail.com
God bless us and continue to protect us as we speak the TRUTH. Amen
Robyn Stewart (Marmon)
Robyn
There is a guy on the blog < go to the tab at the top CONCERNED>. He wrote in May 2010 and he is looking for anwers. You may want to repost this ofr him there. Sounds like he can use a hand walking through the maze. Some dear folks from MLC went to the Denver Church Plant and were terribly burned. I know enough about that but it was 5-6 years ago. Sounds like this is a now thing for this TforJC person. Hope you can help!
Debutante,
Which Denver church plant are you referring to?
I was in the South Denver Church plant and do know of one couple that came from MLC, and yes they were burned too.
Is that who you are referring to, or are there more?
Robyn was (If I read her correctly) talking of the NORTH Denver church.
I might assume that some might not be aware that there were two Denver church plants, North and South. (And yes, problems occurred at both.)
DEFENDER
The person that wrote on the tab at the top of the page that says CONCERNED? is TforJC. He is the one asking all the questions and has blogged on that thread. You may me able to help him out as well! Check that page. Yes we had friend that left on that church plant from MLC the “J”‘s at the South Plant. They have helped us a great deal walking us through some of the issues we had been walking through at MLC since we knew them back in the day.
Robyn blogged on the CONCERNED thread for TforJC. See if you can shed some light for him as well there.
If the question is about the NORTH church, I can give no help. I know nothing of what has or is happening up there.
I’m glad the “J’s” were able to help you.
WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL those who were at Metro Sunday morning, any thoughts?
Interesting 15 page read from Chris Lee, Executive Director for 30 years, the Boston Church of Christ/International Churches of Christ
Things that make you go HMMMMMM.
http://www.reveal.org/library/.....0years.pdf