You mean I get to be the first person to comment on this? I’ll try to make it good!
The meeting was pretty encouraging though it didn’t answer every question or satisfy my every concern. Only time will tell what the fruit will be, but the bud is somewhat promising, as one dear lady said afterwards. I took 10 pages of notes, which I will look over more closely a little later. Here is a brief summary.
Danny, Benny, and Mike each got up and confessed their sin — generally selfishness, pride, laziness, neglect, self-pity, failure to resolve conflicts Biblically, etc. Bob Kauflin presented the assessment team’s findings and recommendations. In the Q & A, Mickey Connelly and Jim Britt also responded to some of the questions.
These are their intentions: Danny is going to spend even more time at Metro Life and less traveling aroud the region. Since Danny will be around more taking an active leadership role locally, the executive pastor position is being eliminated and Benny will focus on other ministries. He has pledged to learn to be more warm and approachable, especially in counseling. They are going to figure out how to be better at followup, especially with counseling, answering phone calls, e-mail. They also plan to learn how to administrate better. They are going to work on relationships within the pastoral team. They are going to train home group leaders better. They are going to evaluate the sports, womens, and evangelism ministries. They want to listen better and not brush off observations like they’ve been doing for years. On polity issues, they are talking about deacons. In the Q & a afterwards, several members brought up the idea of a lay elder board or at least advisory boards, like the one they had for finances a while back.
Many questions were raised during Q & A, some frustration, some encouragement, some folks saying they are willing to give it a chance and stick with it, others saying they might end up leaving if it turns out to be empty promises. I haven’t yet had the time to process my own feelings about this, but I am willing to wait and see and try to be part of the solution. I like these guys, even if they’ve messed up some. I think good things can happen. I hope they will.
Since nobody else has added anything substantial yet (though thanks for the brief encouragement, Metro Lurker), I’ll add a few more thoughts…
I would hope that the comments on this thread, even if they are somewhat disgruntled or pointed, would ultimately honor Jesus, our precious Creator and Redeemer, whose death and resurrection we are commemorating this weekend. Maundy Thursday is when he celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples. On the same evening, in his high priestly prayer in John 17, he interceded: “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word [THAT'S US!], that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”
The world is watching to see if we who love his universal church will respond in love and peace regarding this local one. This is such a crucial situation for the future of SGM. As goes Metro Life, so goes Florida and the rest of Danny’s region. And that in turn sets the precedence for all of the churches around the country and other parts of the world. If Metro can get it right in God’s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, what an ripple effect that will be! Metro Life can become a model for turnaround and real growth that others will follow. Who says that change has to come from the top down? Why not let the grassroots local churches find what works and let it spread as it will.
Thank you for the update, and for your encouraging second comment.
I’m encouraged that there was a Q & A. I’d really be interested in the response to the elder question, as Metro is already full of deacons, both male and female.
Metrostill,
That is encouraging and you are wise to give yourself time to process it all.
I believe we owe a lot to the blog moderators for keeping this stuff out there AND for caring for the wounded at the same time.
Blessings ~
Thanks for the update. It is a hopeful sign. I don’t remember pastors ever standing up to confess their wrongs before the congregation in the old pdi days. I really, really pray that change is on its way. God is so good to His people! I also hope that the board of elders idea gets a thoughtful thinking over by the leaders.
There seems to be a big build up to something…some sort of SGM announcement or whatnot. I can appreciate them wanting to have the right timing on this, but if in fact something is going to happen, sooner rather than later would be much preferred by those of us who know others that really need some hope at this point for lasting change.
On this Maundy Thursday I am praying for my beloved Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Curious….remember what the Assessment team’s findings were?
Oh I pray these people – the leaders God put in place – would love Jesus and be motivated out of his precious love for his people. And lead with that love.
Walking in the Spirit doesn’t come from trying harder in the flesh. “Without me you can do nothing.”
The assessment team’s findings and recommendations will flow from hearts that find power in the resurrected Christ or will flow from men trying to rescue an organization from where their livelihood comes from. One flows from the Spirit; the other flows from the flesh.
Jim stated above, “There will be changes, as it’s “here to stay”, but we both know that the root of the bitter fruit is an unbiblical view of authority.” This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. Any changes will be temporary and superficial. If you only cut off the top part of a weed but don’t dig up and get rid of the root, the part of the weed that was above ground may be gone but we all know that the weed will grow back. Same thing with SGM. Grassroot, local church leaders may change things that are outwardly seen but if the root (unbiblical view of authority, polity, distorted doctrines, etc) has not changed, in time the bad fruit will be visible once again. Yes things may look differently on the outside, but without cutting off and changing the “unbiblical view of authority” no real, lasting change can occur.
If all of the confessing at Metro is sincere, why are they not discussing elder boards? As Jim mentioned, they already have lots of deacons!! Until we see real changes in the polity, real changes in attitudes about the leadership, real changes in their hearts toward the sheep, etc., etc., then I will continue to question their motivation. Actually, I will continue to question until such time as good fruit has been established and proven!
This morning I woke up thinking about the situation at the church I have been a part of for more than two decades. I believe that the root of the problem is something much more simple than “polity, unbiblical view of authority…” etc. At the risk of offending everyone by taking it out of the realm of spiritual loftiness and bringing things into the focus of reality, I’d like to suggest what my observations have led me to believe is at the root of the problem. Perhaps it stems from some of these other issues which have been named, but the problem at Metro is the same one that has existed for years. Here’s my take:
The leadership team at Metro (and some at SGM) behave as if they are a bonafide bunch of celebrities. The members of the church have been far too willing to treat them as such, adding to the leaders’ assumed invincibility and position hovering above reproach and beyond questioning. Whereas one might think that a person with a calling to pastorhood would have a heart to serve their people in ways which involve “getting their hands dirty” so to speak; in two decades at this church, I have observed that kind of leadership on rare occasions. In fact, that type of servanthood has been more aptly demonstrated by the administrator as opposed to the pastors, though he appears to be resistent to input from the lowly membership as well often enough. It has been the church body serving the leaders, not the other way around.
Many people whom I love and respect have poured their very lives into serving this church by sacrificially giving of their time, their resources and their God-given giftings. And it was expected of everyone. I know of one family with four children who deliberated and prayed over buying groceries or giving more to the church. The people of this body love their leaders and have supported them with their hearts and souls for years. They have revered them and held them in such high regard as to willingly offer up priceless resources to honor and bless the leadership.
At the same time, this leadership has continued “guarding their family time” by receiving the material blessings poured out on them by the Metro faithful. These things came in the form of the use of vacation homes at deep discounts; free or seriously discounted medical care and treatment; automobile donations, etc. My problem is not that people wanted to bless the leadership with these things, it is just that it seems to have sparked an entitlement mentality on their part. The unwavering loyalty of these many people just fed into the pastors’ comfort level and perceived invincibility. When it came time for the pastors to make sacrifices, we began to see the cracks in their character and evidence of arrogance and pride showing through.
How many pastors’ retreats have they treated themselves to? How many marriage retreats have the leaders and their wives taken at the expense of the congregation? Now compare that to the amount of effort they have placed into genuine follow through and care extended to those whose marriages were in real crisis situations. When Jeremy Jones’ sin and utterly disgraceful behavior was exposed, the leadership team practically dropped everything to serve Jeremy, his wife, her family, Danny Jones’ family, etc. All of the resources of the leadership were laser focused on helping those families survive a crisis brought on by the selfish, sinful and irresponsible behavior of our senior pastor’s son and the neglectful oversight of the leadership team toward him during his time as a pastor-in-training.
No one would want to deprive those who directly suffered as a result of that horrendous situation the counseling and care they needed to get through, but I know from personal experience that the same treatment is not extended to the average member of the congregation. Sluggish response times to desperate pleas for help from wives, husbands, parents on behalf of their children characterize this leadership’s care for the flock at large. If your crisis doesn’t fit into the schedule, please take a number and wait for a call that may, or most likely may not, ever come from your pastor.
Instead, the leadership relied on the overtaxed and non-paid homegroup leaders to follow up with the congregation and their various woes and difficulties. While this is a solution to serving such a large body in some respects, the homegroup leaders are just church members like everyone else. They are not trained biblical counselors or pastors. We can assume that our pastors have genuinely been trained in caring for their congregation specifically in times of personal crisis, can’t we? Why were they so willing to dump the responsibility of follow through onto these lay leaders?
Please, don’t try to tell me that they faithfully met with people and made the effort to help them through their difficulties. I’ve been here too long and I know the truth. Don’t ever make the mistake of calling on a Monday or interrupting someone’s vacation, or birthday celebration, or whatever other retreat or conference they might be called away to. It’s no wonder they were never able to meet the vast amount of needs of this body…they were not available to the extent that they should have been.
Much needs to change at Metro Life Church. The change needs to start at the top. It’s time for the leaders to be responsible in their care toward this body of believers. They need to be accountable. There needs to be transparency and evaluation. Each of us who work in the world outside of this ministry are evaluated based on work performance and the effect of this type of evaluation is increased productivity. We love our pastors and have demonstrated our desire to support them in the ministry God has called them to. This should not be viewed as an adversarial process, but one geared toward reconciliation and restoration of good will. Just saying “I’m sorry, please forgive me,” does not fix the problem. It’s time to do the work.
I am not picking a fight Fred, but I have to sorta kinda maybe disagree with your statement.
Fred: “Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible.”
Christ: And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” –Matthew 19:26 NASB (emphasis mine)
I don’t place any type of hope of change in any of these men (I used to)…but I do place that hope solidly and solely in Christ. The evidence I have seen of change for the positive has always come from Christ, no matter how many glad-handing episodes and societies of mutual admiration I’ve seen pop up. God is also the One Who cuts out and demolishes bad roots. And His cutting out of bad roots also operates on timetables we cannot control. We can insist on change in the meantime (with just cause from scripture), but God is ultimately the One in control of all things.
(This si not a Bible lesson for you Fred; it’s more of a prayer for me; Ditto on everything else you said!)
It’s true, you can’t fix or reform something that’s corrupt from the top down. Their unbiblical view of themselves is at the very root of the problem. They have perverted the meaning of authority by maintaining a man-inspired gap between church and leadership. This is not found anywhere in the New Testament. The current mainstream American church leader believes he is the voice of God for the people. The Moses Syndrome. And the result is the “average” person’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ is paralyzed. We cannot grow spiritually in this atmosphere. It’s like blocking sunlight and water from a dying plant. Men, not knowing Christ in His Fullness, having good intentions (some of them) nonetheless have given themselves over to a deceptive religious spirit. The enemy doesn’t want us to know who we are in Christ, and these men obsessed with ambition, ego and greed make it easy for the devil to accomplish this.
Everywhere I look, men are building God’s church in their name. They live by “works”. With all the programs, doctrine’s, theology’s, church polities and good deeds that seek to capture our attention, there is no life apart from Christ. He is all we need. Religion seeks to separate us from Him.
“You search the Scripturesbecause you think that in them you haveeternallife ; it is these that testifyabout Me;and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may havelife”.John 5: 39-40
Well said, Wallace. I think the sort of leaven you speak of is within so many churches in America. John 5:39-40 is how the leaven can be purged from the Body (1 Cor. 5:6-7, Gal. 5:9, Matt. 16:6).
On a light side note, I do believe your “So Metro” post with the year’s most loaded question as its body copy is probably the shortest post with the biggest intrigue ever.
Once again, what takes me three pages to say, you can in three words.
2 Decades – You hit the nail right smack on the head. I’m wondering, did you notice when this “celebrity-like” status stuff started, or was it there all along but not to such a prominent degree?
Perks, the “celebrity-like” status of pastors and their families has been noticeable at CLC at least since I started there in 1986, if not before.
2 Decades, well put! I experienced all of that at CLC in the plus 2 decades I spent there. I was shocked at my new denominational church that the pastor (Rector) treated me as just another person, answered my call on Monday and could meet the same week, and even more evidences that there wasn’t a wall between us.
2Decades, thank you for your comments and observations. I too think the home group leaders need a whole lot more training than they have received, and I say this from observation. I can think of several awkward (at best) and hurtful situations in home groups over the years that could have been handled much more compassionately and prudently with a little extra training in group dynamics, family crisis, etc.
But then again, I think the pastors need more training in counseling, too, as deficiences in this area have been a major grievance. If you think about it, their entire “formal” theological training is 9 months of pastor’s college, and counseling is just one small part of that. I know they read some about counseling from the CCEF folks, but that isn’t the same as formal classroom training, and that perspective is pretty confined anyway. Perhaps a few classes at RTS (only 10 miles from Metro) would broaden their horizons and equip them to be more effective in the logistics of administrating a counseling program with proper scheduling and followup. IMHO, pastors need to learn how to help the emotionally & spiritually wounded find true and lasting healing beyond their outward behavior, without sending them out feeling like whupped puppies and depraved worms whose only problem is sinful pride and bitterness (not my personal experience, but a common complaint I’ve heard).
On the polity issue, I did not agree with the gentleman during the Q & A who discounted the idea of an elder board because the average church member is not specially anointed for that calling and therefore has nothing to offer in the area of leadership. Again, this is a symptom of the celebrity model of ministry, not the “priesthood of every believer” model. I am glad that Mickey Conn0lly reminded everyone it is not an either-or dichotomy between ”imperial” or “congregational” rule. I do think that the pastors should be able to make decisions efficiently and work as a team without being overly hindered by bureaucracy and congregational politicking every time they want to move on something. However, they could at least call together several advisory boards, perhaps similar to the one they had for finances. These areas would be top on my list: counseling, women’s ministry, youth, evangelism, sports, and home groups. Each advisory board could be comprised of people who feel called to that ministry because of gifting, experience, or current personal involvement in that ministry. It would need to be more than pastor-picked people, but include those who are not on staff and not already on the existing core team of folks in that ministry. (I am particularly thinking of the women’s ministry here in terms of broadening perspective. We could use more women over the age of 60, more single women, more moms who aren’t home schooling, more women who aren’t from a longtime SGM background or related to pastors, etc.) If too many people wanted to serve in one group, perhaps the congregation could vote on who they wanted on it. They could meet somewhat regularly, and have an e-mail address or contact person where other people in the body can send their concerns or questions that could be discussed and addressed by the group. Then the advisory board could meet with the pastors to share their findings — basically an internal assessment team — and practically carry out some of the logistics so it won’t completely fall on the pastors.
For example, Jesse has openly acknowledged on multiple occasions that so many of the youth are really struggling spiritually, and my own children have confirmed this from their observations. What’s going on? So a group of experienced parents could come alongside Jesse, share their wisdom and their observations, and recommend some strategies. Since Jesse doesn’t yet have teens of his own, this advisory board should be mentoring him just as much as he is trying to mentor them through the parent meetings.
I’ve spent more time on this than I had planned today. I hope it will help someone.
2decadeshere has made a good point, though I am not quite sure that is the basic problem. But it is a problem.
I knew of a situation in our area where a pastor’s wife shared that someone in the congregation had just lost their almost full term baby. The outpouring of love to the pastors family was amazing. Other women posted that they were praying for the pastor’s wife and volunteered to take her a meal and take care of her children so she could minister to the lady who lost her baby. Now I think this would be fine if it was an addition to people wanting to meet the need of the the lady who lost the child. But no, all the posts were about helping the pastor’s family. There is a major screw loose.
Jim, I think Mickey was saying it shouldn’t be “imperial” — which it is now — but that it doesn’t have to be pure democracy (majority rule vote for the whole congregation on everything) either. There can be a happy medium, such as an elder board or the advisory groups. In this case, there MUST be a happy medium, because the congregation isn’t going to settle for anything less, based on the number of key long-term members who stood up during Q & A insisting on it. As Danny even acknowledged, we are free to “vote with our feet” every Sunday, as many have already done.
You said, “Jesse has openly acknowledged on multiple occasions that so many of the youth are really struggling spiritually.”
Although I am not at MLC, I have seen this at CLC in the past. There, some teens were going to extremes with sinful, addictive, or self-destructive behavior. From my own personal experience, the way to reach them is for me to build a friendship where I actually earn their trust. I do NOT earn their trust if I promote an environment that forces outward conformity and involves spying and tattling. That can result in hiding, dishonesty, and even blackmail. I do earn their trust when I repeatedly listen to them, keep their failings confidential, pray for and with them, serve them, and most importantly, talk to them about my own relationship with Jesus, pointing to Him as the only way.
2Decades,
Once upon a time, we were some of those undertrained and overtaxed home group leaders. I could give personal substantiating examples of nearly every point you made. And I can substantiate that these attitudes were formed long, long ago, though I don’t doubt they are more developed now. Metro’s entrance into PDI changed the heart of the church drastically.
I sincerely hope the recent leadership repentence represents true godly sorrow and an understanding of the havoc their “sin” has caused to the saints of God.
God could be on the move here. The beloved pastor’s departure could have forced some of these issues to light. But I can’t help think that the blogs and the forced transparency they have brought may also have played a role here. Like many of you, I will choose to be cautiously optimistic.
Thanks, Jim and Carole. This blog is probably not the ministry you would have chosen for yourselves, but we are glad you’re here.
Wallace – “Men, not knowing Christ in His Fullness, having good intentions (some of them) nonetheless have given themselves over to a deceptive religious spirit. The enemy doesn’t want us to know who we are in Christ, and these men obsessed with ambition, ego and greed make it easy for the devil to accomplish this.”
AMEN! Jesus is our Sovereign Lord! He alone is to be worshipped and praised!
@Metrostill: SGM adheres to a model of counseling not taught at RTS. The dislike is mutual. You need to keep in mind that the perspective of many who think they have found THE “biblical” way of counseling is pretty narrow, too.
Well……………………..EYE have a bit of a different tact. I went with an open heart. I had told a dear friend in the church the ONLY way anything would change would be outright repentance of the leadership team. There was a bunch of groundwork laid. It was blah blah blah. Then Danny gets up and all I could think was WOW, he is back! Danny doesn’t look like a sick beaten down worm. His repentance was genuine, detailed, and emotional. At this point I am in tears and I am crying THANK YOU GOD! I am saying I AM STAYING I AM ENCOURAGED AND YES YES YES!!!!!!!We have break through! He is getting it.
Then the downward spiral begins. Benny comes up and I am ready for the same type of detail. Basically he is reporting a very short statement. Benny comes up and says I am gruff, arrogant, and I have already come to a bunch of you, if I offended you let me know. And by the way, I know this is short but does not reflect my lack of repentance.It took less than 2 minutes and POOF done. Now the “Executive pastors < Benny’s> position is eliminated so he can become more effective telling people that everything they come with is full of sinOH sorry, I mean able to be more effective in areas of ministry where his gifting can be better used. THIS IS THE LAST GUY you want directing you in ministry. He is also the guy who had more to repent for from my perspective than anyone else on the team. After confessing in August that he was going to be more open when people approached him I can tell you from my personal experience in meetings I had with him post August that there was never any change in his approach. Arrogant, lacking humility, unapproachable, and everything I brought was full of sin. QUESTION we all need to ask. How am I to believe now all of a sudden with his minimal 2 minute admission of failing that is any different than what he said back in August of 09 ? I am- according to them- trust this lack of transparency? Worse yet, does Benny still not see how he has personally wounded this body and created “yes” people around him?
Mike Nash then gets up. His repentance is again lengthy, heartfelt, detailed. Knowing Mike he is confessing things that were far from lazy. After Todd left he was now strapped with an already heavy counseling load and now Todd’s load as well. Lazy is not in Mike’s vocabulary. I know he spends hours off the clock on his own time and at the expense of his wife trying to help people see God in the midst of their struggles. I know there were people he could not be affective with because he was so overwhelmed. The only thing Mike needs to confess is that there were not enough hours in the day to handle what was thrown at him and that he gladly bore. Mike need to go to school, get his degree in Biblical Counseling and do it full time.
Now they open the floor for questions. About every other comment is asking why we do not have an in house board of elders, advisory board, etc. Bob K seemed to get a bit flustered. Mickey C gave it the old college try and Jim Britt handled it head on but with no real answer other than that’s the way we do it, we need to trust God not the model. Danny says it is time we teach on ever changing polity. Trust God, yes I do, but folks God gave us a brain. We are supposed to study and hear from God.
The result for me? As much as I want to take these guys at their word, I do not have the faith to be burned again. If they had removed Benny for sensitivity training- maybe. With no oversight other than themselves, and the no model is perfect motto, I am afraid MLC may self destruct. The advisory team is leaving 3 leaders with no oversight to work out their repentance and with no accountability other than themselves. Again they are telling people, if you do not have faith to stay be free to go. That works for MLC> It leaves only the “loyal bobbleheads”. What chance of anyone confronting their confessed sin then? I was hopefully. I walked out discouraged and hurt.
Metro Life’s family meeting was going to be my last hope of salvaging 15 plus years with a movement that I had grown to love. I went hoping there would be something different, but came away disappointed that there really were no changes and my hopes were crushed. Excellent question from a long time, respected, member wondering how “ 3 alcoholics could hold each other accountable” was met with the usual “Sovereign Grace doesn’t trust an unpaid Elder board to give over sight to the Pastoral staff”
One 30 year throw back to the early PDI days commented “I wouldn’t want a “knucklehead” like me to give oversight to the pastoral team. No one was asking for “knuckleheads”, we were just asking for guidelines for Elders in scripture to be followed. He said “we were all just 20 year old trying to do something different than the orthodox models. Well. Knucklehead, here we are 30 years later with countless examples of heavy handed church leaders, with no accountability stomping on members that disagree with their royal decrees.
Want to see how great that is going to work? When Pastor Benny’s son becomes an Elder, he will be there to hold daddy accountable –That is comforting. NOT! Here is a church that openly admits to using the wealth of experience and knowledge from senior members for important decisions, but they are too proud to allow a “non- paid” member to oversee their progress. So, like said member‘s analogy, the 3 alcoholics will be left to watch over each other. Meanwhile the 3 team “advisory board” (found in the book of Hezekiah, under “church governments”) will fly the 1,000 plus miles back to their home churches while those that are closest to the situation are given NO VOICE. The alcoholics “sponsors” are now just a 1,000 mile phone call away.
It was also opened up for questions, which was wonderful, UNTIL, the rah rah cheerleading began “Thank you Danny, we love you, we respect you yada yada yada.” Why didn’t one of the 6 men on stage stand up and say “please allow questions from those with concerns and save the kudos for an email later?” Many with valid questions I left, in disgust, because the clock was ticking and there wasn’t enough time to address concerns, with all the back slapping and high fiving over the repentance.
Don’t get me wrong, I felt that Danny was sincere, but true leadership would have asked the faithful to hold back and allow some tough questions. I was waiting for a question about what to do with all of our Larry Tomzcak and Brent D paraphernalia. Is it to be tossed in the circular file, labeled “un-Biblical? And, what happens to all the music written by Todd? Do we remove that from circulation? (Watch your P’s and Q’s Bob K, and Steve Cook, because if you don’t tote the party line your music is history.) Is that a Biblical model? If someone disagrees or falls into sin, their past is erased (Glad God didn’t tear up the book of Psalms after David did the nasty with Bathsheba) and it is as if they never existed. That’s what cults do to those that leave. That’s one scary precedent.
There was a small mention of “basketball” (Metro’s little god) being examined. Heck – it is the reason that so many young men are excluded from fellowship, because they don’t bounce balls with the best of them, and worship has taken a back seat to the antics of “Christians” getting technical fouls game after game, by refs that stare in disbelief at the un-Christlike behavior of supposed Christians playing for “fellowship.” It’s time to retire the bouncing ball and teach young men “How would Jesus play – HWJP?”
Not much has been said about Benny’s one minute “I’m a worm, and full of pride” half hearted “apology” for stomping on the “little people” that came in over the last year with concerns. Real easy to say “Hey, I have pride, and I’m a sinner.’ Whole lot harder to actually believe it is heartfelt. Ask anyone from Denver that sat under Keith, Benny’s protégé, as he destroyed the lives of countless couples using Benny’s very same “you have pride and can’t question me” tactics.
There was a cheer throughout the congregation when it was announced that there would be Deacons added. Maybe we will see Elders eventually, but I am moving on to a church that follows the 2nd Timothy model. Having been told, way back when that Larry, C.J. and Brent were giving oversight to the East coast churches gave us comfort that our leadership would be under an “Apostolic Microscope.” Then they suddenly disappear and now who is giving oversight? Dave Harvey? The same Dave Harvey that didn’t listen to Todd for a year, screaming for help? That “Dave Harvey”? There are too many rule changes that will pop up to keep “God’s elect” from facing true accountability from other men that see them day to day. Am I alone in my decision after 15 years to move on? No, at last count, 30+ families, counting 4 homegroup leaders have split. So sad to see pride get in the way of real change, but, heck what do I know, I’m Full O Pride.
Again they are telling people, if you do not have faith to stay be free to go.
This was said to us in the Charlotte church in the late 90′s. Maybe it is standard for sgm to give those who are not like thinkers the old heave-ho. It certainly is an easy way to solve their problems.
I believe the Bible is clear that the saints should be ministering to one another in love, by the Holy Spirit. If the saints were freed up to use their gifts for the edification of the whole Body, then four pastors wouldn’t be overworked trying to accomplish the impossible. From what my husband and I saw before we left pdi/sgm, the Holy Spirit didn’t seem welcome. Control by a few men was the way of things, which meant that many saints were overlooked and left behind. Training is good, but the Holy Spirit moving in the Lord’s people is better. That was the NT way.
I can relate to what you observed, especially this…
“It was also opened up for questions, which was wonderful, UNTIL, the rah rah cheerleading began “Thank you Danny, we love you, we respect you yada yada yada.” Why didn’t one of the 6 men on stage stand up and say “please allow questions from those with concerns and save the kudos for an email later?” Many with valid questions I left, in disgust, because the clock was ticking and there wasn’t enough time to address concerns, with all the back slapping and high fiving over the repentance.”
The “cheerleading” is nauseating, ESPECIALLY in a situation where repentance and the asking for forgiveness should be taking place.
The same goes on at the little SG church in our neck of the woods.
Full O Pride, I am so sorry for the outcome and your disappointment. I pray for Holy Spirit’s comfort to be poured out on you and and that the love of God will saturate your heart, mind and soul. As you remember the resurrection this weekend and that Jesus is truly alive, sitting at the right hand of the Father this very minute, may you be encouraged and your heart lifted up. The outcome of the meeting is so disappointing but sadly predictable. I am thankful that you and the other families are moving on. That is really all that can be done at this point. You said it right “That’s what cults do to those that leave. “ Many of those who have left our former SGM church absolutely, without a doubt believe that SGM is a cult. It becomes clearer and clearer the longer you are out! It takes awhile but I do believe that God in His mercy will heal everyone of us. Will we ever be the same? No, but hopefully, we will walk closer with Him and will be wiser and more discerning in the future!
I’m just catching up on my reading here.
Re: 2 Decades April 2nd post;
I agree that it is from the top down. As I read your post, I was reliving another night mare I had a few years ago. A very similar situation to my experience with SGM; it was in the workplace, working for a company that had become a subsidiary of a very large defense contractor who’s name starts with “B”, and ends with “OEING.”
The heavy handed control from the parent company over the subsidiary is in practice much like the handling of SGM local churches by the SGM mega organization lead by CJ.
(In my specific experience, B OEING decided to re-set salaries. I knew I was toast at that moment, because I was hired and salary set years before, due to my specific knowledge that the department needed. The parent company stated that existing knowledge was not needed any longer. They wanted people trained up as they wanted, (to do as told) and did not want anybody thinking they knew anything B OEING did not provide, (or make any decisions outside of specific instructions. (My independent knowledge was no longer welcome.) After a similar kangaroo court experience to my previous SGM kangaroo court, I was terminated from my employment.)
I would expect that if a local church tried to change it’s polity too far from the “parent” model, there would be leverage from CJ through his “oversight teams” to bring said local church back into the fold, so to speak. Any “Pastor” who sought to use knowledge not approved by “big daddy SGM,” would be terminated (De-gifted.)
The change would have to come (or be allowed) from the top down. Or would there have to be an exodus of whole churches from SGM?
What we do not know is, how strong are the strings to local churches attached?
What legal bindings does SGM have over Metro?
Does SGM have legal ownership of Metro’s buildings?
(Here’s the big one.)
Does SGM have control over Metro Pastor’s salaries?
For true freedom, there has to be true liberty.
So, if Metro were to do something apart from SGM Polity, like allow the congregation to elect elders and deacons, would SGM (Parent company) allow that?
Could they prevent that from being implemented?
Remember, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon. (Mammon = wealth, power.)
Will SGM allow their power to be degraded by the common people?
I’m just asking…..
Protestant Knight, Good to “see” you again on the Refuge. Of course I agree with what you said and I believe that with God all things are possible. I too place my hope in Christ and Christ alone. Also, I believe that it is God who digs up and cuts off these roots. Matthew 15:13 states, ”But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.” I really do believe what I stated above. “This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. ” My hope is that the churches will withdraw from SGM.
When we look at other groups who are “off”, we are confronted with questions and mystery. Why are they still in operation? Why has God allowed them to stand? I don’t know but I do know that God gives us truth and we are responsible for appropriating that truth in our lives. When our eyes are open to error, abuse, corruption, etc. we are to blow the trumpet and sound the alarm. The trumpet has been blown, the alarm has been sounded and many have been warned.
I am so thankful to God that He opened our eyes and that we have been delivered! I thank God regularly for this act of mercy and kindness to me as well as to others who have left. We are in a body now where the focus is not on our sin but on our Savior! We are free to worship the Living Jesus Christ, to trust Holy Spirit in us, to hear and learn more of the Father’s love for us and to be reminded that we are precious to Him. We are not worms! We are His sons and daughters and Jesus calls us His friend.
Bravo to Defender: This post is worth rereading!
“The change would have to come (or be allowed) from the top down. Or would there have to be an exodus of whole churches from SGM?
What we do not know is, how strong are the strings to local churches attached?
What legal bindings does SGM have over Metro?
Does SGM have legal ownership of Metro’s buildings?
(Here’s the big one.)
Does SGM have control over Metro Pastor’s salaries?
For true freedom, there has to be true liberty.
So, if Metro were to do something apart from SGM Polity, like allow the congregation to elect elders and deacons, would SGM (Parent company) allow that?
Could they prevent that from being implemented?
Remember, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon. (Mammon = wealth, power.)
Will SGM allow their power to be degraded by the common people?”
Really interested in the Metro updates – Metro is a church I am so fond of and pray for loads, and would love to visit one day when the budget allows!
But I was interested in some of the early comments about “celeb-status” of the pastors. I suspect that this MUST be something that is imparted at Pastors College because this was one of the first things that shocked and disgusted me when I joined Grace Church, Bristol in England.
Pre-joining: Senior Pastor travels 100 miles up the country to come visit me where I was living and gave me the “VIP” treatment. I was taken out for lunch and he even brought me a commentary.
Post-joining (a small church plant of approx 20 people): I foolishly thought that the gestures of friendship that the Senior Pastor had given me would continue. Particularly as it was a small church plant and not many people to care for! But I found that a number of my texts or phone calls were rebuffed with a phrase; “I’m too busy …”.
When the church was officially recognised at Celebration UK 2002 and given “status” by the great “apostle” Harvey – we all got together as a church to celebrate, but the only person missing was the Senior Pastor. He apparantly was upstairs with apostles Harvey, Mahaney et al having “special” treatment.
Celeb-status?! Oh yup – but it’s not just the big churches that do it. The funny thing is that in big churches celeb-status can sort of “work” (no matter how wrong it is). Pastors can bustle in with their suitcases looking important and “busy”. In small church plants, they tend to look … well silly.
Nice to hear from you. I have been wondering how things are going. Were you able to attend the baby dedication? Have you and your pastor met with the SGM “apostley person”? Im referrring to your posts in February under Prayer and Praise.
Canary— Wondering how your Resurrection Sunday was—I was praying for you—just to know the affiirming love of the Father and the wonder of knowing you are seated WITH Christ Jesus because He has risen,indeed!
For all those Metro contributors— thankyou for your reports — bringing personal testimonial perspective of the meetings.
I remain…cautious only …because fruit takes time…..and Jesus said “you will know them by their fruit”.
‘Full O Pride’ (but I would to rename you ‘Seeker of Gods Truth’),
You stated there were requests for guidelines for Elders according to the scriptures.
And the response from one 30 year PDI member was ” I wouldn’t want a knucklehead like me to give oversight to the pastoral team.”….and “we were all just 20 year olds trying to do something different than the orthodox models.” — I would to believe that as young men their hearts drive was to serve God and live and build together for Jesus Christ.
———What I would say to these leaders is—- Do you SEE what has transpired??
Along with preaching Biblical truths there has manifested man-made principles and laws resulting in the many many Brethren who have been (and are) controlled,wounded, misguided,maligned,slandered, by the sgm PASTORS and APOSTLES—The pattern is clearly reported in: Fairfax-Noels Story; Chespeake Story/Esther; Gilbert AZ; Metro FL; and reports from San Diego and (both)Denvers.
Mahaney, Harvey, Shank, Purswell, Emerson etc have taken NO personal responsibility or public confessions for the implodings in these churches and the trail of mauled Christians.
Why, I wonder??? I can only conclude its because they do not see the poison running through the “something different than the orthodox model” family of churches. Until these men renounce and dig up the Pharisitical roots they have created and propogated, sgm will continue to reproduce itself… there will continue to be Brethren ensnared in the web of control; pastors offering their apologies and asking forgiveness and promising to do better when church implosions occur;….and the poison of sgmmahaneymonarchy becoming insidious as it filters into the hearts of the sgm members— As ‘Full’ stated:
“Here we are 30 years later with countless examples of heavyhanded church leaders with no accountability stomping on members that disagree with their royal decrees.”
May God continue to shake the foundations,leaders, and walls of the family of churches known as “Sovereign Grace Ministries”………and deliver the people into walking as the Redeemed of the Lord. Fully and completely Redeemed.
Waters, Thank you!
“May God continue to shake the foundations,leaders, and walls of the family of churches known as “Sovereign Grace Ministries”………and deliver the people into walking as the Redeemed of the Lord. Fully and completely Redeemed.”
Eye robot,
Out of curiosity, how long did my dad’s confession need to be to be sincere? What’s the criteria? Did he need to be more specific? Give details? Cry? Thanks.
I was curious about how the change in leadership structure would be reflected on Metro’s web site. They took off the descriptions of the individual pastors, replacing that format with the text I have pasted in below from http://www.metrolife.org/lt.html. I am curious to know when was this written — and by whom?
“The local leadership of Metro Life Church is composed of spiritually gifted men who, by the grace of God, have been trained and mentored through years of experience to oversee the life and mission of this fellowship. Those raised up to serve in this capacity have been recognized locally by the “fruit of their labor,” the church itself, and extra-locally by the Sovereign Grace Ministries apostolic team. They have demonstrated the proven character, spiritual maturity, calling, commission and anointing that qualifies them for leadership. These men consider it a deep and humbling privilege to lay down their lives in service to this church. Their desire is that every member might come to maturity in Christ and bear lasting fruit for God. It is their passion that every believer be fully equipped for the work of service that they are called to, fulfilling their destiny in Him in order that they might stand before God and hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
Janelle, more detail would have better reflected the depth of his own understanding of the offenses and his sorrow for the grief he caused to so many. Though this affected many individuals, and he should apologize to each of them personally as well, it was also a sin against the whole body and the honor of God. His words, even with the disclaimer, seemed a bit perfunctory even to someone who personally likes him and wants to see him thrive in ministry.
Janelle, from having known your dad years ago, he was struggling then with the same issues he confessed to at the family meeting the other night. When will there be real change? Maybe you can understand why some would question his sincerity, since the areas of weakness he acknowledged have been the cause of hurting many saints over the years. Not very pastor-like.
I can understand, though, your need to defend your dad. Very commendable. This whole situation must be very hard for you to watch. Please know that most of us here only wish the best for Metro Life, and for your family. Try to understand that Eye Robot and others have reasons to feel a little skeptical since they have been on the receiving end of leadership abuse in one form or another. That should not be happening in God’s Body. We want to see an end to it in SGM. If Metro Life leaders are sincere, there will be good fruit growing in the near future. We all pray that this will happen.
Janelle, I will not answer this, I will let CJ and John Piper answer for me. 1 Timothy 4:16 which reads: “Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.” He taught that, through God-appointed means, the preservation of a pastor and his congregation is at stake in his obedience to this verse. Faithful, pastoral ministry could not be more important and the implications could not be more important, for they are eternal. “ C.J. Chapter 6 ”The Pastor’s Priorities: Watch Your Life and Doctrine.” RECOMMENED READING FOR BENNY
“The proportion of public repentance should be in proportion to the publicity of a sin or a sin’s effect.”John Piper May 2008
In short Janelle…..less than two minutes does not even come close.
OH..Metro Still…I would assume Dave Harvey. Oh the Polity is for ever changin……………but still not for the good,yet.
That repentance involves more than mere “sorrow” for the wrong act, however, is beyond dispute. It likewise entails a resolve to CEASE the wrongful conduct, replacing it with godly living.” Wayne Jackson My question…did not the arrogance, pride and inapproachability just get confessed in August of 2009? Obviously a bad confession or an unrepentant one if we are back here again in April. Same stuff different day. Or year, or years. “The Greek verb that is translated “repent” is metanoeo. Literally, it means “after thought.” It suggests the idea of thinking about a deed after the commission of it. In the case of a sinful action, the idea would be a retrospection of the act, and a subsequent feeling of sorrow for having committed the sin. Again I quote”“The proportion of public repentance should be in proportion to the publicity of a sin or a sin’s effect.”John Piper May 2008
Canary,
I certainly agree that leadership abuse should not happen. I guess our definition of what that is would be our point of disagreement. I’ve never known a leader to publically repent and ask for whomever wished to come up and address their sin one on one with them like the way dad, Danny and Mike did at the meeting. True, I may have a “biased” opinion, but I think I have a much closer look at the way my dad lives his life than anyone else on here. He’s flawed, proud, and arrogant. So am I. What takes so long for him to change? Well…what takes so long for ANY of us to change?
Eye Robot,
Perhaps you can clarify for me how exactly that verse ties in to sincere repentance of sins. Isn’t that what we were talking about? It might be helpful to remember that a person’s sincerity is not measurable by the amount of time spent repenting. I’m glad God doesn’t time my prayers, but reads my heart. Otherwise I’d be in some serious trouble. I’d also love to talk to you about these things face to face since I’m assuming I know you and you have gone to Metro or are there now. Maybe that would help in clarifying for me what you mean. Recommended reading for all of us: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9
While it is undoubtedly true that there is no apology however specific, lengthy and sincere that your dad could make that would satisfy some people, it is also true that a sincere apology should be specific. SG people and pastors have mastered the art of talking while saying precisely nothing and alluding to things instead of just saying them straight out. I’m sure the people of MLC would appreciate a little plain speaking for a change.
I’ve experienced that at my church – “I’m sorry that I previously took a hard line on such-and-such. If you still have a problem with it, come talk to me.” I guess this is progress of a sort, but not terribly convincing. They need to do better.
And Jim is right that you have been raised in a bubble.
I’d gone through so much other stuff
That walking down the aisle was tough
But now I know it’s not enough
I want to be a clone I asked the Lord into my heart
They said that was the way to start
But now you’ve got to play the part
I want to be a clone Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone They told me that I’d fall away
Unless I followed what they say
Who needs the Bible anyway?
I want to be a clone Their language it was new to me
But Christianese got through to me
Now I can speak it fluently
I want to be a clone Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone Send in the clones Ah, I kind of wanted to tell my friends and people about it, you know? What?
You’re still a babe
You have to grow
Give it twenty years or so
‘Cause if you want to be one of his
Got to act like one of us Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone So now I see the whole design
My church is an assembly line
The parts are there, I’m feeling fine
I want to be a clone I’ve learned enough to stay afloat
But not so much I rock the boat
I’m glad they shoved it down my throat
I want to be a clone Everybody must get cloned
Eye Robot said:
“My question…did not the arrogance, pride and inapproachability just get confessed in August of 2009? Obviously a bad confession or an unrepentant one if we are back here again in April. Same stuff different day. Or year, or years.” If this true and it is becoming like a “broken record” then it shows why there is a need for the leadership at these local SGM Churches to have some form of accountability such as to a group of local lay elders. If a board like this existed and a problem such as this was identified and the group held this pastor accountable for changing then maybe change would actually occur vs. a pattern continue to repeat.
Just a side note. It seems that most agree that elder boards would be part of the solution to this control and manipulation by the pastors and apostles. However, even if elder boards are implemented, based on past history, these boards would most likely be made up of those in the inner circles who are most definitely “yes” men.
Jim,
None taken. I didn’t say however that I’ve never heard a public confession before. Just that I’ve never heard one like that, with three pastors repenting one after the other. Danny regularly confesses his sin, either through preaching or through family meetings. My dad does as well. I understand that SGM has been my only experience and it would appear I live in a bubble…but I’m there because I want to be. I know that people will say its because my dad is a pastor, which certainly has something to do with it, but at the same time I love my church not because my dad is in leadership but because I am a part of Metro…It’s MY church. As one person said that night, “I am Metro Life Church.”
The Missus,
You speak truth. Repentance should be specific. How specific? Do the pastors need to start calling out people and repenting to them publically? “Joe Smith, forgive me for the time…” We’d be there all day. The fact of the matter is that there are constraints for public repentance. It’s not as personal as we all would like…yet some people here have called for it, and now aren’t satisfied when it actually does happen. That’s exactly why each pastor in turn spoke of a desire to repent face to face to those who feel need it. People can say that it wasn’t genuine, to which I would say try it out and see what happens. Prove them wrong not by coming on a blog and complaining about it but by going to their face and talking with them.
Metro Still,
If you’re curious about the change on the website I’d suggest asking someone on staff about it. I’m pretty sure no one here knows the answer, including myself. Email one of them, or talk to one of them, just as they asked that we do.
Missus wrote “SG people and pastors have mastered the art of talking while saying precisely nothing and alluding to things instead of just saying them straight out.” Brilliant! And so sadly true.
Fred, great, true, and sad comment about the flaws of SG (and other) elder boards.
I hope the participants will bear with me and be open to some balancing comments. I can see merits in both sides of this discussion with Janelle.
1) The situation at Metro is current and active, so folks who are local to Metro and have had some personal involvement should probably bring their concerns about the meeting, conduct of the leadership, the website, or whatever to the leadership before voicing it here. This is part of what Janelle is trying to say, and I think she has a point.
2) Part of the discussion is about the difference between public statements and repentance resulting in change. I can say (with many others here) that getting an apology from leadership for clearly sinful acts was an extremely difficult and costly process, but it unfortunately did nothing to change my situation or the fundamental leadership behaviour that caused the damage in the first place. When apologies do not result in change, people question the sincerity of public statements and understandably become skeptical – thus the comments by Eye Robot, MetroStill, Steve240, and others.
3) Janelle, this may be painful to hear, but I hope it will help you in the long term. The way that SGM leadership applies the doctrine of “Total Depravity” is quite unusual and dysfunctional. It is a two edged sword that leaders use to cut down criticism by both accusing those they have hurt and rationalizing their own sin. That doctrine does not remove our responsibility to repent specifically and change permanently. I’m not trying to pick on you or split hairs. It’s just that nearly every poster who has defended SGM on this blog has at one time or another responded to specific problems by saying “we all sin”. Personally, I question whether that doctrine is an appropriate focus for us as new creations in Christ.
4) I will probably draw fire from all sides for this, but I think this blog is better suited to healing past hurts than discussing current issues. When we have problems with a local church or leader, it is far more effective and loving to discuss it in person and exhaust that process before bringing it into the public domain on the Internet where all sorts of people like myself who do not know the details or have any business trying to bring about a godly resolution can add their comments to the fire. Having said that, there are many of us who have done everything possible to address problems in SGM in a biblical fashion to no avail and are still hurting years and even decades later. For the walking wounded of SGM, this is one of the few places people can safely be heard, understood, cared for, healed, and hopefully find the strength to move on. There are apparently many at Metro that are in the beginning stages of the process.
The doctrine of total depravity speaks to our pre-salvation state. It is synonymous with total inability, meaning that those who are spiritually dead cannot of themselves exercise faith, as faith is a gift.
I would say that you’re referring to the doctrine of indwelling sin (Rms 7), which has been misused and overemphasized by some in SGM.
I wholeheartedly agree that the internet should be a last resort-the final step of Matt 18 (tell it to the church).
One should go to his/her brother first, take someone along if step one is ineffective, and then, after prayerful consideration, follow the final step of appeal towards repentance and “tell it to the church”.
The problem is that SGM pastors (and others) have taken Matt 18 from the church and called it their own. Everyone won’t understand what I mean by this, but that’s ok. Someone just please find “with pastoral approval” for me in Matt 18.
The obvious problem, and the reason this blog exists, is that so many have gone to their pastors and have had the tables turned on them, turning the focus of the conversation from pastoral failure into an examination of the heart of the one trying to bring correction to a pastor.
Regarding Metro and other situations I’m familiar with, I long for the day when these “men” will pony up because they are under conviction, before SGM Inc has to come to town to and rub their nose in their poop.
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification. I meant to refer to overemphasis on indwelling sin which is strangely used as a rationalization or defence ofleadership. It has become part of SGM speak, and is one of the oddest things I’ve noticed since I left. I also agree with your other comments, and I feel that good conflict resolution is something we need to remind eachother of anytime we are discussing a current conflict. Thanks.
I appreciate the freedom to talk about whatever I feel necessary on “these blogs”
The leadership can stand up and mask their “I’m sorry” publically, but will they ever make the connection of those they have hurt specifically and their godless actions. That goes for all who are in leadership at Metro and surronding churches.
Find them out. The bible calls me the remnants…the ones HE went after. And save your I’m sorries for the tears of the saints.
That was nice for the “review committee” or who ever the other celebrities were to come over to Metro, but what about the other churches that are rotting under their very nose. The damage is widespread, others have begged…we are under the care of Sovereign grace ministries…for help. Our cries have fallen on deaf ears…
And I think the message that B enny and Sh ir ee knows, you know the one that is one size fits all except if you are in leadership is witch craft.
“I will probably draw fire from all sides for this, but I think this blog is better suited to healing past hurts than discussing current issues. When we have problems with a local church or leader, it is far more effective and loving to discuss it in person and exhaust that process before bringing it into the public domain on the Internet where all sorts of people like myself who do not know the details or have any business trying to bring about a godly resolution can add their comments to the fire.”
The response that comes to mind on this is that it has been in my experience and what others have reported an environment in SGM where members can voice and discuss their concerns such as this one. If one raises an issue many times the person is quickly chastised for gossip or slander or considered rebellious to question leadership.
Perhaps if SGM tried to create a more open environment where one could openly state their concerns without fear of being called a gossip or some other name then issues like at this SGM Church could be better discussed locally.
Until that time, some type of forum like this is needed.
“Eye Robot,
“ I’d also love to talk to you about these things face to face since I’m assuming I know you and you have gone to Metro or are there now. Maybe that would help in clarifying for me what you mean. ”
Janelle,
I have taken up my issues repeated and intensely over the past year of 2009 with Benny, Danny and members of the Advisory Board. Since you are not part of the leadership team I fail to understand what getting together with you would solve. You have no pastoral or
apostolic authority. You have no ability to change the serious issues at MLC. I do not understand what you desire to achieve ..or your brothers… with dialogue here. Perhaps informing Jim B, Bob K, and Mickey M , as well as CJ of your bantering here would be a worthy email I may send in the morning. I was under the impression SGM frowns on this sort of thing by the children of those in leadership, and a few have been corrected for these activities in the past.
If the grown adult and married childrenof leadership do not want to become targets of responses, they should take their biased slanted views and keep them to themselves. Like your parents, your vision is very very narrow.
Hope you all are doing well and enjoying God’s grace. Many of us are most likely sneezing and wiping the pollen off of our cars.
Jim – I have a question for you. I apologize…I not sure if I’ve met you in person, but I think I recognize you…you may also know who I am. You mentioned something in a comment above regarding the peculiarity of Sovereign Grace. Wanted to know what you meant by that. My understanding of the comment was with regards to a leader’s public repentance. One of the guys from the family meeting stood up and mentioned that had gone to a great number of different churches in the last year and a half, of all denominations and indicated that the “type” of process of evaluation and the outcome would be somewhat foreign to the various churches with whom he interacted. My family would have a history in the AG and “Holiness” movements/denominations. Though we have great respect for what God has done in using them in our lives…we wouldn’t necessarily expect a process like we’ve seen here. That’s just an example. But I wanted to know if you wouldn’t mind clarifying that for me.
Eye Robot – Hey there. I’m not sure if I know you…but I hope you are well! I know for my end…I have a hard time communicating over the computer. I hate that the computer doesn’t include inflection of voice. I think that is what Janelle was wanting to do in meeting personally…not to single you out or bring any type of authority to bear…but to hear your voice and heart in the matter. To be honest…that’s what I wish we could all do.
This is why I jumped on without an alias….please come talk to me personally on Sunday. I’d hate to know that I have offended people and no one came to tell me about it.
I pray that God’s grace shines upon you all today as you live for His glory.
Eye Robot wrote “Perhaps informing Jim B, Bob K, and Mickey M , as well as CJ of your bantering here would be a worthy email I may send in the morning. I was under the impression SGM frowns on this sort of thing by the children of those in leadership, and a few have been corrected for these activities in the past. ”
Though I understand some of Eye Robot’s frustration, I’m saddened by this comment. Isn’t this the kind of threatening, controlling language from which we seek refuge? I’m sorry to see it here.
I have to agree with nickname. Though I too understand some of Eye Robot’s frustration (don’t we all?), his words to Janelle seemed threatening. Not good form. Janelle needs to feel free to voice her opinions just like the rest of us. I’m glad she has posted her thoughts.
Nick…
Not at all threatening…..just giving back this morning to what has been so freely given to me. SGM frowns on this blog, and those who participate in it. When I was a loyal SGM’er I was told so by those in leadership to my face. Just exposing a huge double standard. One of many practiced by those I loved, served and trusted because they were ” In the very stead of God” I will leave the subject alone here.
Hey David….
I have- after the last family meeting- along with others I am sure you will soon here about, have moved on. You are a great young man, tender in spirit and dearly loved as are many I have to leave behind. As I have said above, many including myself have gone to the team, left with much unanwsered, and found the publicly confessed responses by some in leadership being repetitive, in one pastor lacking detail or contriteness < and those sin patterns have been continual hear at Metro and at VB and although confessed, the fruit of repentance is not evident>. I was hopeful, but hope deferred is not a good place to be. I pray for MLC and SGM but there is only so much one can say when the responses have been zero, you are full of sin, or, bubye if you disagree and have a nice life. I have opted for the later. As Jim Britt said, it is going to take a long time. This “won’t happen overnight”. I would agree. There was no change from August to March and Todd had been at this much longer than I or those who are leaving or have left. I wish it was the way back in the day David. Those days are gone. God is doing a new thing. He is exposing sin. MLC is His church. It is time for me to step back after much prayer and allow other to do what must be done. Trust me when I tell you, what is happening is far from over. God is good and he will not allow His church to be a black mark. That give me hope for those Left Behind. Keep the faith David. I believe Danny sees and his heart is ripe for real change.
I have a question: What precipitated this event where these pastors portrayed a public show of repentance as a group?
Jim said: “There will be changes, as it’s “here to stay”, but we both know that the root of the bitter fruit is an unbiblical view of authority.””
Then Fred said: “This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. Any changes will be temporary and superficial.”
Amen! I see the wisdom in that.
With online sites like this one casting light in dark places, the leadership is undoubtedly growing concerned as more and more people begin to question what’s going on. Damage control is in order….
Not meaning to offend any loyal followers, but the description of the “leadership team” at Metro Life Church might best be accompanied by the audio sound of apes thumping their chests in the jungle. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything so vanity-ridden on a church site before.
“The local leadership of Metro Life Church is composed of spiritually gifted men who, by the grace of God, have been trained and mentored through years of experience to oversee the life and mission of this fellowship. Those raised up to serve in this capacity have been recognized locally by the “fruit of their labor,” the church itself, and extra-locally by the Sovereign Grace Ministries apostolic team. They have demonstrated the proven character, spiritual maturity, calling, commission and anointing that qualifies them for leadership.
These men consider it a deep and humbling privilege to lay down their lives in service to this church. Their desire is that every member might come to maturity in Christ and bear lasting fruit for God. It is their passion that every believer be fully equipped for the work of service that they are called to, fulfilling their destiny in Him in order that they might stand before God and hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.””
It reminds me of a passage in Matthew:
Matthew 6:16 “Moreover when you fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”
The only reward the pharisees would garner is the praise and honor of men.
May I ask what initiated this public donning of sackcloth by these pastors? And what is an “assessment team”, pray tell?
Did you ask any questions of the assesment team at the family meeting so that the “family” could hear from your point of view? According to what is im sure a completely accurate count of people that have left, and the “cheers throughout the congregation” after calls for church reform/deacons, (i must have been at a different meeting), it seems that you would have had quite a number of “supporters” to your questions for the assesment team. Scott certainly had the courage and integrity to stand up and present his arguement. That is the point of a family meeting. If you have left Metro, for whatever reason, why did you feel you had the right to return to a members only family meeting? it would seem as though the only purpose would be to have something to complain and become bitter about. If you are still at Metro, then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names to vent your concerns? You seem to be, in conclusion, a coward at best, and full of pride at worst.
Todd is a great worship leader, a valued friend, an awesome pastor and shepherd.
He is not infallible.
One of the things he taught me was that when you have a family conflict in marriage, you both go humbly and seek to work it out. That is the only way it will work.
To break it down barney style for you-
What wont work is if the husband goes to seek biblical counsel and help, the wife goes, says nothing, nods her head politely, and then later chats to all her friends and his friends about how God-awful and full of sin her husband is. Regardless of whether she went to him at home, the point of bringing the whole family into the equation is that we are able to provide opportunity for equal growth. We call this accountability (biblical). If you simply desire to slander the “husband” in this scenario, no one is able to grow. Todd did not stay for the assessment team, and was not as Bob pointed out, assessed. Todd did not fail to then go and meet with 700 people, and discuss the shortcomings of the pastors.
So, if you have “divorced” yourself from the Metro family, you do not belong in counseling sessions at all. If you are still in the family, and your desire is for “reform”, then why hide in the back row at meetings, or behind a screen name? Are you afraid people will start anonymously slandering/gossiping/making you look like a complete moron who is completely full of pride? Like on a blog read by all your friends? I can certainly see how that would be unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately, quite unbiblical.
Jim,
You said Janelle lives in a bubble where she is unused to leadership repenting. If I may ask, what church do you belong to where the leadership team is constantly apologizing for things? It seems like that would get depressing really quickly, especially considering the apparent problem SGM has with looking at sin too much.
One more thing to be said.
Suppose we do live in a bubble. Suppose we dont see the festering sin surrounding us and the ones who lead us. Suppose that this “call to reform” blog is the real biblical truth. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And thats the funny thing, when you think of it. That the “bubble boys and girls” of Metro Life Church, can create a bubble that makes your gossiping, slandering, sad, miserable, sorry excuse for a “ministry” about as pointless as Nancy Pelosi’s halloween mask. Comparing the amount of lives that SGM has lead to and kept with Christ with the negative effect and waste of lives (including mine now) that this blog has had on the people of God is depressing. We all very well might be in a bubble where the leadership team doesnt listen to the complaints and opinions of the church as much as they should. But I would rather follow a Leadership team who listens to the Voice of God rather than the voice of some team of deacons. Which is why I am going to enjoy my bubble, and enjoy dragging as many people into my bubble on my way to heaven as I can, while you enjoy whatever it is you think youre doing down here.
Sincerely
Rob.
If you would like to talk to me face to face, Id be more than happy to talk to you, just contact me through the email.
We’ve probably met. I know who you are, and I’ve spoken with your dad a time or two.
I have no desire to defend the AG, but I spent 5 or 6 years there, with the Sr pastor now at Grace as my sr p, and the Sr pastor now in T’Ville as my oldest kid’s youth pastor. I was what they call a deacon, which was functionally a ruling elder. The sr p called me one day, told me I had been nominated, the congregation voted (I wanted a recount), and I was in. My understanding is that if we would have received multiple reports of pastoral abuse of authority, we could have given the pastor the boot. It would be interesting to see who would be left standing if Metro had such a system in place.
I think my “peculiar” statement was in reference to someone who has never known, from the inside, anything other than SGM. The gentleman who visited a number of churches in 18 months probably doesn’t qualify. It’s sort of a silly statement, really. I spent 2 years at an independent church, 7 years at a Calvary Chapel, 5 years at an AG, and 10 years at the T’Ville church, which was SGM for 6 years. I know them. I don’t know much about the many churches I’ve visited.
There is no way I can qualify my “peculiar” statement, as there are not enough hours in the day. You’ll have to read what’s been written. I’d start with the “polity” tab at the top of the page.
BTW, if I was not a fan of some of the peculiarities, this blog would not exist.
That was special. I’ve never heard gossiping, slandering, sad, miserable, sorry excuse for a “ministry” before. Dogonit, I think I’ll shut this thing down right now.
My phone number is on the about page, if you ever want to back your online bravado up with a real conversation.
BTW, I understand your anger. I used to enjoy attempting to make SGM leaders angry, but I currently take no pleasure in making anyone angry. I was concerned that the “bubble” statement (although true) would possibly be offensive to the person I was writing to. The last person on the planet I would want to offend, outside of my family, would be a young lady publicly defending her father. I didn’t consider that others would be offended as well.
I was trying to find a way for her generation to understand that SGM is a minuscule part of The Body. It would serve everyone in any type of insulated group to discover how gathered believers have governed themselves for 2000 years.
Christ has His church and it is healthy and thriving. It’s not contained in a mere building or in a single denomination, but it is amply described in detail in His Word the Bible. The called out believers are the church.
It is challenging for people in dysfunctional churches with cult-like aspects to have freedom within the body of believers to share concerns. If the pastors are too haughty to listen and show people respect, then people become frustrated. In unhealthy groups people don’t feel they can talk to anyone at all. Many pray hard about concerns.
Those mustering the faith in God and the courage to leave the group are helped if they share their experiences with others. It helps in the healing. Boards like this go a long way toward helping people heal.
I imagine that some here are praying for the people in “leadership” and especially for their children. These children need our prayers.
My musings on the peculiarities of SGM… PDI/SGM strives to be counter cultural, IMO. Years ago, at PDI’s very beginnings, American Christianity was encountering the feminism, sexual revolution, etc of the 60′s and 70′s. In an effort to counter this cultural decline, standards were set up for the members to follow.
I’ll give you a few examples. I remember when I was in high school (in FL in the late 70s), there was a lot of expectation on girls my age to go on to college and be “successful” by having a career. If your goal was to be a stay at home mom, then you were stupid and backward. When this type of feminism reared its ugly head in the churches, it was necessary for PDI to come up with “right doctrine” to counter it. Men’s and women’s roles were strictly defined to combat the push for women to leave the home and find careers of their own.
When children began to be born to the young couples, parenting and education had to be addressed. Again, IMO, there was a serious effort to be counter cultural, to do things differently than the norm, according to “right doctrine.” Birth control was discouraged. Some of the parenting trends of the day, like the move toward “time out” rather than spanking were met with disapproval. In my neck of the woods back then, the school systems were requiring sex education for all ages, even very young children. In addition, there was much talk about humanism invading the schools and curriculum, making parents fear sending their children to public schools. Alternatives had to be developed and taught throughout the PDI world. Young PDI leaders wrote books about these topics and gave seminars so we would all be “on the same page.” Guidelines on these many topics were presented as the right way, the Biblical way to do things. There was much social pressure to comply.
Years went by and the children grew up. The leaders were faced with the next challenge – dating. Again, counter cultural was the motivation, I believe. We were kicked out of PDI long before our children got to marriagable age, but I have seen the courting doctrine in my sister’s family, who stayed in SGM for years after we left.
Maybe the sin-focus that SGM is now famous for (or infamous for) developed as a counter cultural response to the whole “I’m okay, you’re okay” relativism of these last few decades?
What’s wrong with all that? What’s wrong with seeing the need to do things differently than “the world”? Nothing! Except that they took things too far. They went beyond Scriptural principles and Truths at times and set up mandates that were not outlined in God’s Word. Some things became rigid and legalistic. Over the years, these mandates have evolved into a whole set of peculiarities in some of SGM’s language, worship, teachings, lifestyles, etc.
Add to that the peculiar view they hold of leadership roles and it can be a recipe for disaster in the lives of many dear saints. In my view, they are dreadfully out of balance, leaning way too heavily on the pastors’ authority and not nearly enough on respect for the priesthood of every believer. Too much talk about the giftedness and anointing of the leaders and not nearly enough recognition and development of the gifts and anointing in the Body as a whole. WAY too much concern over “obeying” your pastor and being a joy to him and not nearly enough concern over creating strong, independent, mature church members who can go OUT and minister more effectively in their worlds than any of the pastors could ever do. WAY too much sin-gazing and not nearly enough saint-building.
PDI/SGM has shown a willingness to back off on some of their adamant “right doctrine” stances, but not the polity one yet. Even the apostle of the Chesapeake church, when repenting of their gross errors there, made sure the polity pamplet was available to all. Metro’s rewritten leadership blurb on their blog still contains strong language in regard to the authority and peculiar giftedness of the leaders.
So, that’s my take on the peculiarities of SGM. For what it’s worth. I can attest that, after only three years as a member, it took quite a while to decompress, heal, and rid myself of the error we encountered in our time there. I truly cannot imagine if SGM is one’s entire life’s Christian experience. I don’t mean to be cruel in saying this. I simply cannot imagine what it would be like.
Gracie, perhaps being counter-cultural (having a schtick) works well for getting a church started, but then it becomes obvious that only so many people will buy in. Over time church growth can slow down. Did this happen with SGM?
At that point it may become necessary to welcome all popular viewpoints because that can attract greater numbers of people and the infrastructure needs the financial support.
With respect for your views, I personally do not believe that the majority of individuals adhering to the values you described did it for counter-cultural purposes. I believe most of them did it because they really felt called by God to get back to what was commonly esteemed for thousands of years. Rearing children and home schooling them is hard work. I doubt that most who do that are doing it to send others a message; rather, they do it because of deep conviction.
I understand that parents favoring public schools can feel uncomfortable in churches where most families home school. All I can say is that most home school families across America attend churches where most families have children in public schools, so they understand that discomfort. They have large families and some are asked if they know where babies come from.
My point is that pressure comes from both sides and often without meaning any harm.
“James Ballard, who signs his name “ROB” and says “then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names”. Am I missing something here bro? You have a moniker James Ballard and then sign your name Rob? OK , that makes sense. < not>
Dear James/Rob /whoever you are:
Let me try this point by point seeing reading the above posting accurately may not be your forte.
You said“Did you ask any questions of the assessment team at the family meeting so that the “family” could hear from your point of view?” Answer: Attempt made, was never handed the mic but I certainly did amen after Scott, Peggy,Kim,and John brought up the same point. Scott more strongly. Who is going to hold the three self confessed sinners, who are our leadership team accountable? Why do we not have Elders? Many emails have also been sent to both MLC and the board of inquiry about the same thing. Many at MLC do not feel safe with what has happened and want more over site. People who were on the fence are leaving based on the fact the answer seems to be No, not happening. Rob, have you gone on the CLC website? Have you noticed anything done by Dave Harvey < serveral books> on Polity are gone? It is because it is all rewritten and because is it all changing. I thought God’s word didn’t change? Danny will be teaching from the new improved version soon. While you are at it, try to find ANYTHING written or on MP3 by Brent D. You know the guy that used to be on the “A” team? He was removed, so anything he said is gone as well. Bet in a few months anything written by Todd will be removed as well.
You said “If you have left Metro, for whatever reason, why did you feel you had the right to return to a members only family meeting?” Answer. I went to the meeting as a member. THAT IS WHY I HAD THE “RIGHT”. < I have to ask, are you ROB the Pompous? >My decision to leave was made as the result of that meeting. Something you would not have stated had you thoroughly read my statement above to David G. I have emailed, spoken, spoken out, written to Danny on numerous occasions during this season and before it all hit the fan, gotten together with Benny, Danny,as well as communicated with the advisory team. I am no chicken, no wall flower, and short of nailing the 99 Theses to the front door or hiring a plane with a banner on the back, my issues with the lack of integrity and levels of sin and manipulation at MLC have been well stated. OH FYI , there were quite a few people at the family meeting who have already left, but came at the insistence of members of the advisory team in the hopes these folks would reconsider. See Rob, it’s called the Family of God for a reason!
You Said “If you are still at Metro, then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names to vent your concerns? You seem to be, in conclusion, a coward at best, and full of pride at worst” ANSWER see above , I did not hide. Far from a coward and come on now Rob, as Benny will tell you , anything we speak, breath or write is full of pride!You have been taught well! I am so glad God calls us by a different tag, because of His Son. That was one of the biggest reasons it was time to go. I am ready to live like Jesus rose from the dead, instead of living like a worm, a sinner, and full of pride. Time to live and serve a Resurrected Saviour! Navel gazing gets really old after decades. ROB-Break open your bible, if you dare and read all Paul’s letters to the churches. They all begin “To the saints of………..” Even the worst churches. Do you see “To the sinners of Corinth?” Think about that.
You Said “Todd did not stay for the assessment team, and was not as Bob pointed out, assessed. Todd did not fail to then go and meet with 700 people, and discuss the shortcomings of the pastors….Todd is a great worship leader, a valued friend, an awesome pastor and shepherd” Answer If you had asked Todd, who you say was a valued friend detailed questions about what happened you would not even be able to type a word of this tripe here. Todd saw what the “assessment team” looked like in another SGM church fall out. He was not going to put his family though that. Todd and his family left because they needed time to heal. You know NOTHING about what happened. You are Rob, are a pompus fool. Todd had no problem sharing with people the real deal of what happened. He told anyone who directly asked intelligent questions, because he would not lie. He told the guys he would not volunteer details but would not lie if asked direct questions. The amount of hurt that was caused to Todd and his family was INEXCUSEABLE! You AGAIN know nothing. If you did you would have been along side of other demanding elders and a double check system so this never happens to anyone on the leadership team or the church again. You obviously were not as close to Todd and Michelle as you thought.
YOU SAID “One of the things he taught me was that when you have a family conflict in marriage, you both go humbly and seek to work it out. That is the only way it will work.” ANSWER And yes, that was what Todd did with SGM/Dave H, Wayne Brooks, and with our team for over a year. Result? he resigned. DOES THAT NOT SPEAK TO YOU AT ALL? Rob, loyalty is only an admirable trait in allegiance to God. Blind loyalty is horrifically sinful. It places man above God. It’s called IDOLATRY! That is what you are doing. There is a huge difference between thinking the best and turning a blind eye to sin, especially in leadership.
You Said “So, if you have “divorced” yourself from the Metro family, you do not belong in counseling sessions at all.” Statement: I am assuming you are talking about the family meeting here
So I would say…REALLY? Sounds a bit cult like. So Rob, are you saying if you leave Metro you leave the cult? No one talks to you again, you are not welcome? How dare you enter the doors? Kind of like the JW’s? Can I check with Danny on that statement? Bet cha not! I have many relationships at MLC as well as other SGM churches. They are not going anywhere. There is this big guy, God we all serve. MLC is not an idol to any of them nor is SGM. Serve God Rob, not man. It’s His church, not a country club with exclusive membership as you seem to believe by your statements.
YOU SAID “then why hide in the back row at meetings, or behind a screen name? Are you afraid people will start anonymously slandering/gossiping/making you look like a complete moron who is completely full of pride? Like on a blog read by all your friends? I can certainly see how that would be unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately, quite unbiblical. ” ANSWER OH MY, Their is that pride word again. Rob, did this get thrown out at you so much it is all you know to say?Possibly projecting? Coward in the back row? Not at this meeting, not at the one in August, not on any Sunday. Does that narrow it down for you? Back row is not my style. As for my relationships at MLC or those in SGM, my stance is no secret to them, blog or no blog, I have been quite vocal. The rest of this is just playground taunting, and name calling, not worthy of a response.
Rob, when people defend what they love they can be protective and say things that are mean,defensive, hurtful and arrogant. When people have been hurt, manipulated, lied to etc, they can say things in response to what has happened to them. Because your marriage was challenged I am sure your protectiveness is in response to all that was poured into you. Many couples at MLC overlooked things that should have been addresses because of the great debt we feel we own to those who would not still be married today is it had not been for that care. Those were the good old days. It is time MLC and other SGM church members open their eye to what is happening. A Risen Victorious Saviour needs to be back on the throne in our churches. We all know we are sinners <DUH!>. But because of His Cross we are saints saved by grace. We are not worms. Get off your belly Rob and grow some legs!
SORRY last paragraph correction lost verbage..it’s late!
Many couples at MLC overlooked things that should have been addresses because of the great debt we feel we own to those who poured their lives into us. Many of us would not still be married today is it had not been for that care. Those were the good old days. It is time MLC and other SGM church members open their eye to what is happening. A Risen Victorious Saviour needs to be back on the throne in our churches. We all know we are sinners <DUH!>. But because of His Cross we are saints saved by grace. We are not worms. Get off your belly Rob and grow some legs!
Hi Patricia and welcome. My rather long post above was aimed at answering a question posed to Jim by a second generation SGM young person. “What peculiarities do you see in SGM?” I answered as kindly as I could, including a bit of PDI background, as I see it, in hopes that those who have known nothing else could see why some of us would consider SGM peculiar.
All I can say in reply to you is that, in my day and in my sister’s day within this church movement, all popular viewpoints were NOT welcomed. The pressure was palpable to “hear” the Lord say, yes I am supposed to homeschool, or stay at home, or forbid dating, or whatever the current mandate coming from those standing “in the stead of God”. There was much pressure to conform and personal liberty was squelched.
On occasion, these mandates would change suddenly, often without explanation, and we were all told that constant change was here to stay. There was a real sense that the sheep needn’t worry ourselves with the whys or wherefores, just obey (don’t question) and be a joy to the pastor. Those who made waves were not appreciated.
So, were there folks who did what they did because of conviction of the Lord? Sure. But there may have been some motivations that were not as pure. I know for myself I had to repent of pride and fear, pride for feeling like we were just a bit better than all the ”other” Christians out there, and fear that if I didn’t follow the prescribed “right doctrine”, I would be on the outs with God (or with those standing in His stead).
My main point was that, even though the leadership’s motivation to recommend and teach some of these mandates may have started out with good intentions (to counter popular culture), that still does not make them true Biblical mandates and they should not be imposed on every believer.
As I said, SGM has shown a willingness to back off some of their stances, but the root one, the one that causes the problems to continue, IMO, remains. Polity. Ironically, the Biblical, New Testament mandate of the priesthood of every believer needs to be pushed as hard as some of these peripheral issues have been over the years. This would go a long way to bringing about freedom to the saints in SGM.
“Living in a bubble” – those were my exact thoughts as I read Janelle’s post that Jim responded to. If you are in SGM and you think you are not living in a bubble, you are mistaken. Jesus did not call us to live in a bubble. As my time away from SGM grows longer, I see more and more just how much we were in a bubble there. It was almost devastating to my family and we continue to see the negative effects on our children. Your life is consumed by SGM – it is very comfortable and safe, like living in Stepford. Take a chance, and go elsewhere and see what the real world is like. It will be frightening, but you will learn much…confront your fears and examine them. There are many cult-like aspects to SGM. Jim makes an excellent point above about what leaders would be staying in place if the body was made up of ruling elders (not elite pastors who rule themselves). There is a biblical model that is not being followed.
I think you bring up a critical point; PDI was started as a reaction against some of the cultural excesses in the late 70′s and early 80′s.
But what it did was respond by creating a culture of its own excesses.
Some of the points you raise in particular I will address; the push for women to eeeeekkkk, gasp! go to *college* and have a carrer. This was artfully contrasted to the traditional stay at home mother. As though the one just had to disrespect the other.
So what did PDI do? Made being a SAHM the only option degrading the option of having a career.
They totally overlooked balance. They also overlooked the fact that women will be mothers to small children for a mere fraction of their lives even if they’re radical like me and had a busload of children.
If James Ballard is a pseudonym, how does it relate to this, if at all? Any world view?
From Wikipedia:
James Graham Ballard (15 November 1930 – 19 April 2009) was an English novelist, short story writer, and prominent member of the New Wave movement in science fiction. His best-known books are Crash (1973), adapted into a film by David Cronenberg, and the semi-autobiographical Empire of the Sun (1984), made into a film by Steven Spielberg, [1] based on Ballard’s boyhood in the International Settlement and internment by the Japanese Imperial Army during the Second World War. The literary distinctiveness of his work has given rise to the adjective “Ballardian,” defined by the Collins English Dictionary as “resembling or suggestive of the conditions described in J. G. Ballard’s novels and stories, especially dystopian modernity, bleak man-made landscapes and the psychological effects of technological, social or environmental developments.”
Excellent comments, and I agree with you totally. You, DB, and I are probably around the same age.
I saw the same mindset, an obsession with “countering culture,” in the homeschool community I was a part of. I enjoyed homeschooling, but the majority within the homeschool movement made me very uncomfortable. There was a DEFINITE air of superiority, the image that we (the homeschoolers) were better parents, wiser and more biblical. We received the same responses by Christian outsiders (and rightfully so) about “our” self-righteous arrogance in how we were raising our children that I read on the sites with reference to SGM’s “superior attitude.” Self-righteous arrogance affects everyone the same way.
I’m not bashing homeschooling, I WAS a homeschool parent. I’m just saying the same mindset was present. That was originally why I couldn’t bring myself to stick around the SG church in our neck of the woods (Gracie’s sister’s church), that “mindset” was SO intense. It permeated EVERYTHING they did, moreso than Jesus or the gospel – that was just used to beat folks over the head to bring them into submission to the idea that homeschooling, staying at home, courtship, etc. were the “wiser, more biblical” ways of doing things. Thus the phrase, “gospel-centered.” EVERYTHING became “gospel-centered”…the gospel-centered life.
Since you disparage those who “hide behind a screen name”, why not solve the mystery? The metro folks seem to have no idea who you are.
Not accusing you of anything-perhaps your first name is James (like mine) and you go by your middle name (which is also Robert). Not an uncommon practice.
Metro’s a big congregation, so maybe the metro folks haven’t met you. I just think, given the loving accusations you tossed around you might want to clarify.
I hear those of you sharing your experiences with mothering/homeschooling vs. career/public schooling. What I’m going to say in no way invalidates your personal experiences, but I’d like to know more about what specifically was (or is) happening at SG concerning this.
Do the pastors openly preach from the pulpit that being a stay-at-home mom and homeschooler is “the Biblical model” and does that offend?
Or did a large number of homeschool mothers make condescending comments to those with kids in public schools or to women working outside the home?
I can say that in my own experience, I have seen both pastors and parishioners put down home schoolers and women who stay at home.
So my point is that tensions run high on this issue on both sides of the camp. Let’s face it. We don’t live in a society that favorably views women who stay home. For many years women who choose to work inside their homes and who homeschool have been asked rude questions questioning their abilities (are you a certified teacher?) and also about socialization (how do you think your kid will ever be socialized if he’s not in a public school?).
I mean, when is the last time you picked up a magazine in a doctor’s office and found articles extolling moms who work at home?
If anything, I think the homeschool moms have been the brunt of more condescension from all corners. In my own experience the vast majority of homeschool mothers (and moms who stay home) say as little as possible about their choices because it only invites further disdain.
So are you saying that SGM pastors teach from the pulpit that all moms should stay home and they all should home school?
I’m a lousy blog host. Although belated, I’d like to welcome you to the blog and thank you for your participation here.
Re pastors/pulpit, I’m aware of quite a few SGM pastors who make a strong point of saying, “we are not a homeschooling church”, along with, “we are not a courtship church”.
In my family’s experience, our local SGM was very home school-friendly. It was nice not being looked at like we had two heads.
To my regret, as a home group leader I think I was far more hard core “if you send your kids to that school, you’re nuts” than my sr pastor was.
I don’t know about other SGM churches, but I think Metro Life has gone out of its way to not imply that home schooling is the only way. They rarely mention home schooling or stay-at-home mothering from the pulpit, and when they do it is always with a disclaimer that it isn’t the only way. We’ve got lots who don’t home school and lots of working moms. I don’t know what their take is on how people have made them feel. We do have plenty of wonderful support for home schooling, though, which is a big draw for those who do. I would say that is a big positive at Metro Life. In that regard, I am very appreciative of Benny Phillips in particular for his personal investment and heart for equipping home schooling families. It is certainly not the only way to educate kids, but it is a ministry and it is about discipleship, and it’s a wonderful way for a pastor to serve such a significant segment of his congregation.
The SG church in my neck of the woods is *WELL KNOWN* for it’s hardcore stance on homeschooling, staying at home, courtship, etc. It came from the pulpit, parishioners, care groups – EVERYWHERE. At one time you could still find online some of the legalistic outlines and literature that Brent D. used in his teachings of such.
I hear they’re trying to change their image, but it will take a LONG TIME to convince people.
“So my point is that tensions run high on this issue on both sides of the camp. Let’s face it. We don’t live in a society that favorably views women who stay home. For many years women who choose to work inside their homes and who homeschool have been asked rude questions questioning their abilities (are you a certified teacher?) and also about socialization (how do you think your kid will ever be socialized if he’s not in a public school?).”
If I had a quarter for every time I was asked those questions, I’d be a wealthy woman.
I’d also like to add that this wasn’t that long ago.
The documents I’m referring to were still being used two and a half years ago.
I often wonder if the senior pastor has publically recanted, and actually said, “We were wrong when we were telling you all this.” It would be very beneficial for his congregation, as well as his church’s image.
Kindred said: SGM created it’s “own society,” where women who worked OUTSIDE of the home and had careers were viewed unfavorably. Both sides are wrong.
You know, I was just thinking about my last comment.
When I unknowingly taught my children something that was incorrect, especially if it was something that I taught as a ”hardcore truth,” it took a LONG, LONG time to convince them otherwise and to correct it. It also, at times, shook their confidence in me.
SGM…you have your work cut out for you. I understand your dilemma, but you still have to do the right thing. God is watching.
Thanks Jim for the warm welcome. I know I’m not alone in appreciating what you’re doing with this website. It’s important.
You said, “To my regret, as a home group leader I think I was far more hard core “if you send your kids to that school, you’re nuts” than my sr pastor was.”
I appreciate your honesty. I suspect that if both sides (homeschoolers and public schoolers) could get inside each other’s heads, we would find that we all think the other side is a little nuts.
A Kindred Spirit, I believe that SGM has to change its image in order to increase membership rolls. They’ve tapped into the homeschool movement and now they are tapping into the popular culture. It’s necessary for business growth.
MetroStill, my experience is similar to yours in that I’ve witnessed efforts by those favoring homeschooling to go out of their way to welcome those who do not. Obviously, there are blowhards on every issue, but I have yet to run into one who home schools. I’m not saying they don’t exist. They’re just probably not the norm.
For people who have the best interests of their children at heart, they simply want to know the facts. If public school parents have facts supporting decisions favoring public school, then they should feel free to bring those facts to the fore. Likewise, for home school parents. This is about the wellbeing of children more than the egos of parents after all, right?
The same goes for the other issues – moms staying at home vs. taking a career, dating vs. courtship, etc.
These are all lifestyle issues sometimes influencing character and since character building is a part of Christian discipleship, how can the church be edified if members feel afraid to share what they know through either experience or through facts?
I like learning from other people. To me, it’s a great help.
The way I look at it people embracing all angles (courtship vs. dating, public school vs. homeschool, career at home vs. outside home) ought to feel free to bring up facts supporting their positions in a loving and kind way – for the building up of the church.
Obviously, a person who homeschools isn’t going to hell just for homeschooling and a person who public schools isn’t going to hell for that. But if one side or the other provides marked benefits for the family, then what is sinful about sharing those facts in a kind way?
Is it now a sin at SGM for parents to speak their views in love?
If anyone is interested in seeing how these issues became so emotionally charged, this is a good piece, especially starting with the 8th paragraph and moving forward: http://www.newtotalitarians.co.....School.htm
I remember Brent teaching that women should stay at home. They could have a career IF there household was completely in order, as well as their family, etc. Since all Mom’s know just how difficult to nearly impossible that is (I stayed at home and had never ending laundy, dishes that always needed doing because a mom could never finish anything with children interrupting all the time (my sweethearts!) oh, and I had junk drawers as well) what he was really saying was that a Mom who worked outside of the home had to be PERFECT. Never met one of those women.
In the Charlotte church, working Mom’s (with children) found it hard to fit in. I don’t know if that is true today. If it is no longer true, then pastors should state that they were WRONG to teach what they did, to put women into such prisons of expectations.
I chose to be at home with my children and to home school. I, like Gracie, had the superior mentality that we were doing the best thing, that public schoolers were in a bad situation. I was taught this sour milk and drank it willingly. Having left PDI over 13 years ago, the bubble has been burst. It’s a big gray world out here! We must each hear the Lord and follow our convictions out of faith, not just follow the crowd out of fear. My convictions still lead me to home school but I now understand that other people have different convictions and must be free to follow them. However, if anyone says that pdi/sgm (at least in my neck of the woods) did not stir up this controversy by creating like thinkers instead of free thinkers, then that person is an ostrich with head in ground.
Canary, I know firsthand what you’re talking about.
Patricia,
I understand where you’re coming from. I see it as “different strokes for different folks.” What’s best for me and my family, may not be what’s best for yours. I could share with you all day why I think a particular way of doing something is the best, but that doesn’t make it the best option for you. I think that’s where we get into trouble…trying to put everyone in the same mold or expecting everyone to function in the same way. That’s why you don’t see these types of things (schooling, career choices, mate selection, etc.) addressed in the bible.
I agree with you, I enjoy listening to both sides, it helps with the process in making a decision for ourselves. That’s why pastors and churches have to be very careful what they endorse and how they endorse it. They tend to carry a lot of weight when it comes to persuasion, thus the reason they’ll be judged more severely.
God made us all different. And if you really ”listen,” the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS let you know what’s best for you and your individual family. You really don’t need the input of anyone else.
In my opinion, being a woman, you’re d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don’t (pardon my french). I have heard many pastors talk about how looked down upon stay-at-home moms are and I think it’s hogwash. In some sectors of society, maybe, but I think ordinary people generally think highly of homemakers. Up and down my street are non-Christian homemakers. Good for them. I had a surreal moment several years ago when I was conversing with one of my non-Christian neighbors and I realized that she was judging me for having a career while I still had school-aged children. I had to laugh because I was so surprised to have been skewered for having a career by someone outside of my church.
Once I heard Brent talk about how career women dope their kids with Tylenol so they can drop their sick children off at daycare and dance off to the office to pursue their selfish ambition. Christians never differentiate between the true uber-feminist corporate climber (of whom there are a lot fewer than you might think) and the single mother living from paycheck to paycheck who is going to get fired if she misses work for a sick child. They know nothing of these distinctions.
I think the church as a whole needs to quit being so reactionary. Whether its faith or politics, we need to be ahead of the discussion – not dragging behind it. I think being reactionary is where these things go wrong.
Patricia, I am having difficulty expressing the atmosphere created within some of these churches. Some of the other posters here have said it well. You seem to have the idea, and I agree, that as Christians we should be able to converse and even disagree on issues that are not clearly outlined in God’s Word. That was not the atmosphere in my old church, nor in my sister’s. My old church may have changed some. In fact, years after we departed, we heard that the pastors there were sending their children to private schools. Imagine our surprise after homeschooling had been the order of the day.
Bottom line: SGM’s overinflated (IMO) view of pastoral/apostolic authority and the responsibility of regular members to follow them unquestioningly was the reason for the unhealthy atmosphere. If leadership believes they are hearing the mandates of God (on parenting, education, what have you) and are passing them on to the lowly sheep, then woe to the sheep who don’t line up with the program. Do you see what I mean? It was not always an atmosphere of mutual respect and recognition that the Holy Spirit dwells fully in each of us. There was not always the liberty to say, no, God is leading me to do differently. Not only that, when some of these “mandates” (or excesses) turned out to have serious downsides for some folks or when the surrounding communities started labeling SGM as “the homeschooling church” or “the courtship church”, then the public stance changed without much (or any) explanation.
But as Canary said, you would have had to be an ostrich with your head in the sand to not feel the pressure to conform in the air. It was that pronounced.
So SGM may back off on homeschooling, or courting, or whatever the flavor of the day is, but until they relinquish their elevated places of authority over the sheep and appoint real, impartial elders to hold them to account, I’m concerned the beat will go on.
I agree with the entire group about this. It’s silly to tell an entire gender full of people that they *must* do things one narrow way or they’re not leading a gospe-centered life.
You might as well tell all men they must be plumbers because they have a Y chromosome.
Also, the season in life in which a mother has a bunch of preschoolers and stays home with them is a small fraction of her entire lifetime. Even radical me with eight kiddos over a course of 20 years. When my youngest was going into Kindergarten, I decided to take a class to see if I liked school.
I liked school.
So I took two classes in the spring and applied and was accepted into the Biology program the following year when the baby was six and full time in first grade.
Now, I’m a Masters student and my dh helps out around the house but, much to what’s his name’s chagrin, the house has been woefully neglected because, I must confess, the house is last on the imaginary priority list.
Now I am not going to go write a book about my choices and try to coerse others to follow in my footsteps because each one of our lives is like a precious stone that is individually cut by the master jewler and that master takes our flaws and beauty into consideration when He cuts here and there every precious gem unique and beautiful in its own right.
I am not living my life in protest of others’ choices and I don’t try to put a little fish sign on everything I do, I hope my actions speak louder than logos.
I wonder if things would be different today for SGM if they had put more stock in what women say.
A friend of mine who was a former SGMer at the SG church in my neck of the woods made the comment that her husband was told by a SG pastor to “get his wife under control” after she voiced her concerns.
At the meeting Danny said something that was very encouraging and sadly, I am not good at remembering exact quotes like so many people here can do. However, he said something along the lines of “25 years ago they started the church with the idea that they wanted a “real” church or “reality”. Then he stated that he now realized that what they have done is they have made having a good marriage and good kids etc. as an example of reality, and it is not. The gospel is reality.
Again, that is a very loose narrative of what he actually said. If someone remembers better, feel free to correct me.
I truly think Danny gets it. I am encouraged for the future.
Gracie said, “Bottom line: SGM’s overinflated (IMO) view of pastoral/apostolic authority and the responsibility of regular members to follow them unquestioningly was the reason for the unhealthy atmosphere. If leadership believes they are hearing the mandates of God (on parenting, education, what have you) and are passing them on to the lowly sheep, then woe to the sheep who don’t line up with the program. Do you see what I mean?”
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with those words.
I’ll share a bit of my experience here. I was in a different church for many years. It had much the same leadership style that SGM has and was cult-like. We left about 20 years ago. When I read the posts here I really identify with much of what people feel because I’ve been there. I know several people in SGM and have visited the church many times, so I know what’s going on to some extent. I have not drunk the Kool-Aid.
I hope what I’m about to say is helpful. For several years after I left my old “church” I did not want to have anything to do with the teachings that church had strongly emphasized. I had a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak. I had been taught a lot of error and it bothered me a lot as I tried to figure out what was true and what was not.
Over time as God continued working in my life I began to realize that not everything in my old “church” was rotten to the core. Much of it was, but not everything. I started to see that some of the things my old church taught actually were in the scriptures. While I was in my old church, I had been swallowing a lot of what was taught without thoroughly checking the scriptures “like the Bereans to see if those things be so”, so I assumed that what was taught was true without proving it scripturally.
What surprised me is I began to realize that not everything my old church taught was unBiblical or foolish. Much of it was, don’t get me wrong. But not everything.
Someone used the word “reactionary” which presents a good question. Years after I left my old church I had to ask myself the question, “How reactionary am I to the things my old church taught? Do I throw it all away because I’m upset?
I had to ask myself what really matters. Was it what that church taught? Or was it what God teaches through Scripture?
I had to ask myself how I needed to react to what God says in His Word about certain things. Does God’s Word say something about what I am reacting against?”
Forget SGM.
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support my view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support my view?
I’m bringing this up to show that all that matters is God’s perspective as shown through His Word the Bible.
What I think doesn’t matter a flip. What others think doesn’t matter. What an SGM pastor thinks does not matter.
All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?
Is God’s Word the truth? Or does it change?
After I left the old “church” where the leadership had been usurping God’s authority, I had to come face to face with – God’s authority.
Hey Canary!
I see you got off the cage, and are now on a tree branch.
Is that where you landed after going to Easter services somewhere?? (I hope?)
(How’d that go??)
- Defender
Patricia,
You kind of nailed it.
I keep thinking about a certain woman I know , who had her little buss load of kids, and then her husband died suddenly. She was left to support her kids all alone (he had no life insurance.)
If a woman has some kind of marketable skill in the event that she is left to make it alone, I think that could be part of God’s will, don’t you think?
In my case, my wife chose to stay home and home-school our kids. She got bored and took up a hobby. I lost my job and we have been provided for by God through her hobby. (That’s my {Proverbs 31 woman!)
I get really irritated when legalists try to tell other people what to do.
SGM needs to change its name to SJM (Selfish Judgment Ministries) Wadyathink?
Yes, my picture has changed because of my Easter experience. You are very perceptive. I challenged a fear that turned out to flee when I faced it. Easter Sunday went very well, and there was much grace in the pastor who taught. He spoke on our freedom in Christ – how appropriate. He even ran to the back foyer near the end of the meeting so he could greet people as they left. How refreshing!
Canary, I vividly remember my first visits to other churches after we left our old one. A pastor visited us and was so kind and loving. It was refreshing. That taste of grace felt so renewing and still is!
Of course, I would be remiss not to acknowledge that I eventually found issues of different sorts in the new churches, but as long as the pastor was humble before God and preached from God’s Word – it was okay. We’re all human and as the saying goes, if I ever find a perfect church then I won’t be there.
The Bible was preached, grace was spoken of, and the Holy Spirit was welcome in the church I visited. I figured, if He is welcome and present, He must approve of the place, right? Not looking for perfection or I’d be looking forever on this earth…:)
Canary, you said:
“What a wife! I’ll bet you make a great team.”
Yes she is. She keeps me in line.
She helped me learn those three little words that are most loved by every woman.
Not “I Love You.”
Wait for it…………………………..
“You Are Right. (Dear.)”
It has kept me out of (most) trouble over the years.
“Extra-biblical refers to teachings, concepts and practices claimed to be supported by or taught in the Bible, but which are based on incorrect interpretation. In hermeneutics, the study of the methodological principles of interpretation, this is known as “eisogesis” (super-imposing a meaning onto the text), as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing the meaning out of the text).”
I tend to be easily swayed, so I’m TOTALLY dependent on the Holy Spirit for the understanding of scripture. I thank God frequently that He gave us the Holy Spirit to do such.
“SGM created it’s “own society,” where women who worked OUTSIDE of the home and had careers were viewed unfavorably”
Greetings,
As a longtime member of CLC, I wish to comment on this statement. I completely disagree. This is not what CLC is about.
Instead, we are a community of Christians who take seriously the biblical command and calling to raise or children. Regardless of what schooling choices we make, we are called to love, train, instruct, discipline, and nurture our children. There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?
Instead, we are encouraged and exorted to work together, serving one another, so that all families, including single parents, are both providing for their families and fulfilling their calling as parents. When this is presented as a teaching, we are exorted to seek the Lord and His grace as to how we are to respond. No formulas or laws. We are to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. We are each responsible, as always, for the choices we make.
And as in any topic that is preached, we are warned not to be judgemental towards those who choose a different path than our own to reach these same goals.
Anyone who looks down at anyone else for any reason is sinning. I have been at both ends of this sin. It is easy to give in to temptation on this one. I know the “good feeling” that comes when I point fingers at someone and think that they are inferior for whatever reason. Of course I know better. Yet when I meet that person I was pointing at, greet them, and talk with them, I realize what a fool I was for those thoughts.
This statement seems to contradict the rest of your comment-
There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?
I completely disagree. This is not what CLC is about.
I don’t know about CLC but the Fairfax and Charlotte church were very blatant about what they thought of women working outside of the home. I don’t know how it is today – my experience was over thirteen years ago. Brent did say that women could feel free to work outside the home IF their home, kids, husband, etc. were in order. Back that with the expectations placed on women about what that order was suppose to look like (linen closets neat, no junk drawers etc.), the end result was that working outside the home was taboo if you had children. The heart may have been to protect families but the perhaps unintended result was that women were boxed in without being allowed to hear from God themselves about career vs. staying home. How do you think that made some of the single Mom’s feel who had to support their family without help?
The point is that this is yet another gray area that somehow became a religous rule. I also agree with Jim that 30years contradicts himself by the way he presents families with working Moms. Aren’t Mom and Dad able to decide how to split the childcare on their own? To put forward the theory that only sgm cares about the poor children of working Moms is ludicrous, though I might be assuming something 30years did not mean. These days, some Mom’s have to work just to help the family get by. They should not be shunned or made to feel guilty, but free to make the decision on their own.
Look at Defender’s wife, who swooped in to save the day by turning her hobby into a business, which now supports the family. He is so proud of her, and they now work together at home. What a wonderful thing! And what a great husband to encourage his Proverbs 31 woman.
People need to be free to seek God for the directions of their own lives. If the Bible does not strictly forbid something, why should the church?
Yes, you are right, Jim. That example needed more work in order to make sense. So ignore that sentence. There are certainly many situations where both husband and wife must work.
It is a heart issue where husband and wife must evaluate and decide upon – are the financial needs of the household being met? Are we fulfilling our responsibilities as parents?
So, Jim, is SGM really looking unfavorably towards women who work outside the home? Or are they exhorting parents to spend lots of time training their children, which usually requires a parent to be home when then children are young?
Canary….thanks so much for your kind encouragement!
But believe me, God knew and put things in place for our “hobby/business’ before we knew it was His provision to keep our family afloat! Believe me, I am SURE that every other woman on this blog is a better housekeeper than I am! And yes, Defender is a real man, and a godly, encouraging, leader and pastor to our children, who has never tried to squelch me but considered any and all ideas I have brought to him, while trying to stay at home to teach and raise our kids.
30 years said, “….is SGM really looking unfavorably towards women who work outside the home? Or are they exhorting parents to spend lots of time training their children, which usually requires a parent to be home when then children are young?”
You ask good questions.
I see a lot of opinions here. Could someone please respond to the following questions, as I’m trying to understand better where everyone is coming from. It is almost sounding like some here believe that God has no opinion and says nothing in His Word about these issues. Is this true?
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
I’m bringing this up to show that all that matters is God’s perspective as shown through His Word the Bible.
What I think doesn’t matter a flip. What others think doesn’t matter. What an SGM pastor thinks does not matter.
All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?
I’ll bet you keep house better than I do! My birdcage never seems to stay neat for long.
My point is exactly what you are describing. God made a way to provide for your family. If Defender had been as close minded as some of the men/leaders I met in pdi/sgm, you might not have had your business to fall back on in hard times. Your husband encouraged you in your talents. The Lord used that. Cool! My husband is like that as well. I just don’t understand why the church at large can some times restrict women so much. Ah well, one of those many questions I will have to ask the Lord when I see Him…
I left in 2006. I have no idea what sgm is currently teaching on a number of issues. I also believe that in some areas, teaching would vary from church to church.
Well Patricia, we are speaking of gray areas. A married couple should have complete freedom to seek God (and His word) on what is best for their family. Religous rules should not force their decision. The Proverbs 31 woman seemed able to care for her family and have a business of sorts.
From what you all describe, it sounds like it must have been awful. I’m so sorry.
Could someone please respond to the questions in my last post. All they ask is for a “yes or a no” answer with a little scriptural support. I really want to understand.
Canary, I’ve seen evidence of ego problems in SGM leadership. That is wrong in God’s sight and it has hurt a lot of people.
I shared in an earlier post my experience after leaving a “church” with similar leadership issues. I admitted that I got very reactionary by not wanting to have anything to do with any of the teachings that bothered me in my old church. In other words, I had been in one ditch – but after I left, I jumped into the opposite ditch.
After a while God led me to see that all that matters is what is in God’s Word and I found out that God does have something to say on every topic that concerned me. He created all things, so how could He lack an opinion?
Are there “gray areas” with God? Yes or no? And is the yes or no scripturally supportable? I say this because God’s perspective from His Word is what matters.
Canary, it is true that the Proverbs 31 woman cared for her family and had a business of sorts on the side. Are you saying that SGM taught that it’s a sin for a mother to have a home business on the side even if her primary focus is her walk with God and her relationship with her husband and her children?
God has given us all freedom to choose a path in life. If truth be known, no one can really force us to believe anything. That said, God has also given us many scriptures teaching principles that, if followed, can lead to blessings or some real trouble. God wants the best for us, does He not? So is it reasonable to think that He has omitted instruction (on certain topics) in His manual, the Bible?
Here are just a few samples showing where God has given instruction for our own good.
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Prov. 11:28 Those who trust in riches will be ruined. But a good person will be as a green leaf.
Prov. 15:14 Smart people want more knowledge. But a foolish person just wants more foolishness.
Prov. 19:2 Enthusiasm without knowledge is not good. If you act too quickly, you might make a mistake.
Prov. 14:34 Doing what is right makes a nation great, but sin will bring disgrace to any people.
From reading postings here, it almost sounds like some feel that church leadership and members should never discuss Proverbs such as those above, lest some be offended in the congregation.
Paul speaks about edifying one another in the church. I realize that many in SGM have gone overboard with this, but do we throw Paul’s admonition out for good? Or is there a way to edify those we care about in love?
Maybe what many here are most concerned about is not so much the do’s and don’ts as much as how the do’s and don’ts have been communicated.
Am I understanding correctly?
Listen, I do understand how leadership can abuse power by stretching scriptures beyond all imagination. But in the case of training children at home and women focusing their energies primarily on their homes – is this unBiblical? I’m trying to understand.
That’s why I asked if someone could provide scriptures to support their viewpoint.
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Sorry Patricia, but I don’t have time today to answer all your questions. Maybe someone else can. I have explained my position as best as I could. There ARE gray areas in the Bible where a person must seek the Holy Spirit and make an individual decision.
For example, my neice has two young children, yet she works one day a week as a nurse at the local hospital. She and her husband mutually agree that this is beneficial for their family, and for my neice, who worked very hard to become a nurse. Their children are well cared for during that one day a week. During the time I was in pdi, this would have been frowned at. Don’t know how it is today. Does my neice sin because she has an outside career? Some church leaders, in their tiny world view, would say yes. I say no.
Your last question is interesting and reveals much: Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
This is a gray area in the Bible, since it is silent on the matter of a child’s education, except that we must teach our children about the Lord. I personally dislike the humanistic culture that exists in public schools in my area, and choose to home school. However, another Christian parent might send his/her child to public or private school because they have better schools in their area, and more control over what is taught there. This is a personal, invidivual decision that parents make through seeking the Lord.
There is no one right answer for everyone.
The trouble with sgm in the past was that leadership would declare what was right for everyone without understanding this concept, that we are individuals with freedom in Christ to make our own decisions. We sheep also lived in fear and made decisions out of fear, whether fear of leadership (being shunned, etc.) or fear that we would somehow miss God. It was a symbiotic type relationship that kept many of us under a controlling, religious spirit.
I am so glad to be free of it, to walk in the grace of my Lord Jesus, to follow His leading, and to walk by faith.
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will NOT be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are NOT blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
How would you answer that set of questions? How would you answer your set?
“Instead, we are a community of Christians who take seriously the biblical command and calling to raise or children. Regardless of what schooling choices we make, we are called to love, train, instruct, discipline, and nurture our children. There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?”
First, I don’t “train,” my children, second, I don’t generally, “discipline,” my children in an adj. sort of way, rather discipline is relational and the word, “Train,” appears in this context once in the bible and the Hebrew word is much better rendered, “Dediccate,” which is also much more an interactive relational thing than something i do to my children.
Also, this stance ignores the main point I was making namely that the time period in which our children are young and in need of intense nurturing and attention is a relatively short period of our adult lives. I was with my children for the first five years of their lives and then slowly transitioned them toward the independence my adult children enjoy.
But even though I wanted to stay with my children when they were little, other people have made alternative lives for themselves. More and more dads are primary caretakers and there is thankfully more shared parenting between mom and dad.
I think there are multiple parenting models that are decent and Biblical, it’s a shame that only one is favored by a Christian group.
To the former SG pastor: Yes, you’re right that the questions could be flipped. Would you like me to answer those questions? I can answer both yours and mine if you like.
However I’d prefer to hear the thoughts of others here first, so as to understand better their convictions. Perhaps you’d like to start first? As a former pastor having seen this from many vantage points, your perspective is undoubtedly important and could be helpful to the discussion.
Patricia,
Here’s are a number of questions for you:
How do you think things would have changed if the Proverbs 31 woman’s husband died suddenly or perhaps became incapacitated? The fact is that she would have less time to devote to her home and her family. God’s desire would be for her to care for her family and keep them alive would it not? Would our God condemn her because her house wasn’t so tidy or she didn’t take her kids on out on dates anymore because she was exhausted from the load she was forced to carry? I don’t think so. I think He would rise up and call her blessed. There are times and situations in life that are not black and white. Scripture addresses some specifically, other times we use the principles and revelation of God’s character as a guide for us to live by. It does not address each and every circumstance that could arise in life. We are given the Holy Spirit to guide us, as we are illuminated by God’s Word. It is His job to reveal these uncertain areas to a family, not SGMs. What happens when the Proverbs 31 woman’s children go off to college? Is the part of her life with meaning over? I never witnessed esteem given to any work done by women outside of their home regardless of the circumstances involved. Women are made to feel defective when they don’t measure up to the picture of the perfect wife and mother, looking exactly like everyone else. It wasn’t something preached, it was something lived and modeled. How does that work out for the single woman? Where does she fit in at SG, when the perfect woman is Susie home-maker? I’d love to hear from some single women from SG and see how that went for them?
Patricia You asked: “Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view? “ I ask: Does God’s word teach that a woman is somehow unable to focus on her family (lovingly prefer them to her work) if she has a career? I think Canary already answered you with Prov. 31
Does God’s Word teach that the women who must work due to unfortunate circumstance, loss or hardship should be judged as less righteous? Isn’t her righteousness apart from works or outward performance? Romans 4:5-6
“All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?”
As Canary said, it’s a gray area. Without doing hard research right now, I would call upon the Freedom passages, that is, we are free in Christ as individuals in the Priesthood of believers to go boldly before God, and seek His guidance for our own lives as He leads us. It really is by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we know what God wants for each of us. I do not believe God promotes Socialism in that we all must do and look alike. Our God is the God of the Individual. He saves us each, individually. We commune with Him, individually. We may gather corporately to share in His goodness and worship, but we are His, individually. We are individuals, with freedom in Christ.
Once upon a time, (a long time ago,) I joined a church, and the pastor told me; “My job is not to tell you what to do or how to do it. My job as your pastor is to bring you to a place where you can hear God for your self.” I loved that man like a brother. (Haven’t seen him in years though.)
My personal story here is how God stopped me cold in the parking lot as I was leaving work to go home right after my first son was born. The Holy Spirit gave me a flash reminder of the parable of the Talents. Remember that one, where the rewards were to be given cities for investing the talents? He told me that my son was my first city, “Invest in him well.” The Holy Spirit told me.
I’ll tell ya what. If ever the fear of God can come over a man for parenting his kids, that was how God did it for me. Absolutely no man will come between me and my “cities.” (I have three of them now.) My wife shares this conviction with me. I do not, or will not tell anyone, that that must be their parenting model or conviction. If anyone told me that my wife or I had to do one thing or another, I’d take it to the Lord, what I do from there is none of their business. I always thought that way, so without knowing it, my days in PDI/SGM were already numbered. I actually paid littel attention to what was taught, I had my “orders.”
These last two years of being unemployed and working with my wife in her hobby business has (in hind sight) been providential in the pastoring of my boys (yes, I am their pastor, as directed by God to bring them to a place where they can hear God for themselves,) in these last years of their High School education. They are currently in 11th & 12th grades and dual enrolled in High School and College. If ever they needed their dad to help them figure it out, it’s now.
I only know by experience, that legalists can forbid anything they want, but in Jesus Christ we are free from their bonds.
If you want a scripture, the best I can give you right now is 1 Cor 8:1-13. This is the chapter where Paul tells the Corinthians that some are free by their conscience to eat meat sacrificed to idols, while others are not. Paul does not condemn either eating or not eating, only to live in your freedom to eat, with respect for those who have less faith. I have always taken from that passage, that there will be differences at times, and we are to operate with Grace for one another.
Defender
Might be a good time for everyone to take a breath and thank God for His kindness to us, no matter how we feel about particular issues. I’m a hard-head on so many topics, and usually think that I’m right. I know on That Day I’ll know how wrong I was in so many ways. I’ll also know just how amazing God’s grace is.
I have unintentionally opened up a parenting/schooling debate with my counter-cultural comments. Really, I was just trying to illustrate how SGM got to be so peculiar, IMO. I think they started out with an admirable attempt to “bend the page backwards” as Brent once said, and cause Christians to think about other choices besides the social climate of the day. But somehow, somewhere in there, SGM’s problems with polity developed and emerged. Then, the good ideas to counter popular culture became God’s direction for SGM members at large, when (and this is the important part) they are not clearly mandated in the Word of God.
“There is no other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. ” Tell me that, preach it from the pulpit, require that I believe it to be a member of the church and I won’t complain a bit because it is a clear Biblical principle. Tell me that I must homeschool, look upon me as an inferior parent if I don’t, and I’m afraid you will have a revolt on your hands. I’m already spoiled. I know that God wants a personal, intimate relationship with me. I know that no one, absolutely no one, comes between me and the Father, but Jesus Himself. I know who I am in Christ and my position before the throne of grace. Not ever gonna give that up to a mere man. I’m stubborn as a mule on that point.
Patricia, there are lots of Scriptures that talk about parents’ responsibililties with their children. There are none that mandate homeschooling as the only viable way to see to those responsibilities. Having said that, you should know that I homeschooled my children through high school and even now, after they are grown and off to college, I work in a home school support environment. My decision to homeschool was my own, eventually. It took me a long time to cull the fear and legalism out of that decision and really hear from God year by year. Everyone deserves that liberty. So exhort me, if you like, with the merits of one thing or another, but if God’s Word does not lay it out in black in white, then give me my freedom to hear from Him myself.
In fact, I get downright excited about the kind of relationship this shows that the Lord wants with me!
Each time that the topic of parental responsibility for the raising/discipline/education of children comes up in the context of PDI or SGM, the two categories of memory keep coming back to me:
1) The collective stress that our family felt on Sunday morning walking into FCC (or whatever it is called now), knowing that we would of course encounter a number of families with small children. The stress didn’t come from encountering the families with children, but from knowing that, early on a Sunday morning, there might be a toddler or young child that didn’t “show us their eyes” and “greet with a smile”. Such encounters would frequently lead to an extended demand by a parent that the child greet us appropriately – and when they didn’t, a child was dragged off to the restroom to be “disciplined” with a wooden spoon, stick of material designed for a hot wax gun, or other “FCC-approved rod”. It just killed us to know that a child was beaten and reduced to tears because they didn’t greet us in the FCC-approved way.
2) The other “child discipline” that became normative within FCC/PDI/SGM was some child-rearing process that involved the theory that even infants were rebellious and needed authoritarian correction in all aspects of their lives. Feeding, waking . . . everything was defined by this insane method. I watched parents struggle under the pressure of this evil method, as they sought the approval of church leadership, at the detriment of their children. I understand that, like many practices of FCC/PDI/SGM, after a “season” of hell and damage – the leadership said “never mind”.
I used to just be sad about the damage caused by the high-control, strange and destructive practices of the SGM/CJ machine. I used to think that the leadership was doing the best that they could. Now it seems clear that it is just following the path of all destructive cults – the leaders become richer and more powerful, while people with wonderful and vulnerable hearts are damaged, abused and picked-clean. I used to be just sad, but now I am angry. Angry that people are taken advantage of by wolves in false-shepherd’s clothing.
Those of us who have left the SGM/CJ-Machine unfortunately have no power to directly bring about change from within. The corporate structure adopted by SGM and the wholly-controlled subsidiary churches, pretty much precludes anyone but the leaders exercising any meaningful legal control. Even if the worst of the allegations that have been made about the leadership in specific instances (i.e., Noel’s case) were successfully-actionable in court, I would guess that SGM would simply throw one or two leaders under the bus and say that their actions were contrary to the organizational directives and values.
The only power to bring change within such organizations comes from the legally-powerless members, exercising power by withholding the financial life-blood that is so close to the soul of the Corporation. This would mean a shift back to an Acts 2 church model . . . a model without “superstar” preachers, without basketball teams, without a “pastors college”, without big buildings, without bondage. Scary stuff. Lots of pain at the outset, but freedom as a destination.
As a woman who actually worked outside the home while at CLC (and gasp! teach in the “government schools”), I will tell you that I did have a leader look me in the eyes at Care Group while we sat in his lovely large Hadley Farms home that I was in SIN for working part-time so we could afford rent in a Moderately Priced Dwelling Unit apartment (as well as food and health insurance). That’s just one incident.
Most parents–male and female–I know work very hard to balance family and work. Would I have preferred to stay home with my little ones? Of course, but that’s not the life I got.
I once believed EVERYTHING could be backed by scripture, and I worked HARD to try to make scripture passages “fit” what I wanted an answer for. I would fight you over it and use scripture to beat you over the head to prove I was “right.”
To put it simply, I was a legalist.
I’m the type of individual that “has to know” I’m doing it “right.” I’m a perfectionist. It was only natural for me to feel the same way about my Christian walk after becoming a believer. If ever I wanted something “done right,” my Christian walk was at the TOP of the list.
I also needed to “feel” that I was right, that assurance that no matter what anyone else said
or did, what ”I was doing” was correct.
There ARE gray areas, Patricia. And rest assured, at some point, God will rock your world and SHOW YOU those gray areas. Those gray areas are there for a reason. They force you to trust *HIM*, to rely on the *HOLY SPIRIT*.
God did that with me, and I pray He does that with you, as well.
I have to tell you, I’ve been rejoicing all day since I wrote my earlier comment. Meditating on the New Covenant makes gratitude and joy well up in me. He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!
I think it is interesting that the conversation picked up so much when we began talking about women working, home schooling, etc. Maybe a nerve was touched. Perhaps people are learning to think outside of the box that tradition keeps us in, to question why we do what we do.
Anyway, I’m with Gracie: He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!
When we have this sort of relationship with Jesus, then our lives become what He makes of them. That is where freedom is found with home schooling, women having careers, whatever personal decisions must be made in a family. We are walking with the Lord, He says, “Go this way” and we do. His sheep know His voice.
“He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!”
PDI Past, your description of how Sunday services were for your family is very sad. I’m sorry you went through that and I hope your children are doing well today. I do hear a lot of anger in the posts here and it is normal to be angry.
Thread postings can get complicated and it can be easy to misunderstand what a poster is saying, especially when emotions are raw. It appears that some of my words have been misunderstood by a few here. I asked some good questions to foster some “thinking” – totally apart from SGM concerns. At some point it’s helpful to walk away from reacting to SGM and instead to walk into the pages of Scripture to search for God’s perspective. Until you do that, SGM defines you. Think.
I have not even given my take on the homeschool/mom-at-home issue and yet some of you are mad as hades making creative assumptions. It seems that your anger is so hot against SGM that it’s difficult to discuss this calmly. I never said women should not work outside the home or that all children should be home schooled.
And I hate to say this, but if anyone here is seriously concerned about those currently in SGM, the kind of verbage being bandied about here is not going to lend credibility to your choice to leave. I guess that is what saddens me most of all because I believe boards like this can do a lot of good in terms of educating people about SGM.
There probably are Biblically-minded Christians who will visit this thread and conclude that few here are really interested in what the scriptures have to say outside of freely given grace. Do you feel grateful enough to God to want to please Him in the way you conduct your life? Or do you think you can live and think however you want without even considering God? If so, then you cheapen the sacrifice Christ made on your behalf. Note: I did not say we can earn our way to salvation. But we at least ought to want to please God by the way we conduct our lives. The words many here have written in their posts give quite the opposite impression to a newcomer. It might help to pray about this.
I said earlier that when I left my old “church” (that had similar egotistical leaders to SGM’s), I went into reactionary mode. Many things my old church taught I wanted nothing to do with. I was angry. So I understand where some of you come from. I’ve been there, done that.
But I’ll just say this: At some point it’s important to get past the reactionary phase of hurt and anger and begin earnestly in deep repentance asking of God what His will is on all the different issues.
That’s why I keep saying over and over that all that matters is what God thinks. Not what I think. Not what anyone else thinks and not what SGM thinks. But some of you aren’t getting it.
Some don’t recognize that they’ve left PDI/SGM but have swallowed the cultural mantras all around us. Some don’t realize they’ve left the authoritarianism of SGM and instead placed themselves under the authoritarianism that is coming on America if we don’t all wake up.
It’s helpful to get in a place where you can consider things outside the box.
The way some of you are talking is like you want your church to be a “discrimination-free zone”. Is that what you want? For you to be free to say whatever you want, but to limit what others can say?
When my wife and I left SGM, we re-examined everything we were taught during our time there.
I highly recommend this, as it deepened our convictions.
What I personally try to avoid here is to try to convince others to agree with my conclusions ( I haven’t always excelled at this ). I want to accept our guests as they are, all in a different phase of the process that is becoming whole after SGM.
“This is bigger than SGM, people. Way bigger.”
I couldn’t agree more Patricia.
That’s why I always say, “As Goes the Church, so goes the Nation.”
SGM is only a small symptom of the whole mess we are all in.
My pastor said this morning that the American Evangelical Church is suffering from Spiritual Anemia.
I could go on and on, but that is not the topic here.
So We’ll just leave it at that. (For now.)
/He created all things, so how could He lack an opinion?/
Well, man has created many many things himself. Homeschooling and public schooling are both manmade systems, not God-designed systems, so, again, as others have said, I think this is an area of Christian liberty. Each person’s life, personality, talents are different. God made each unique, so it stands to reason that one person could feel the educational pull in one direction and the next person feel it in another. We are not cookie cutters or, if we are, why does God keep making us? Does he keep making us until he finally gets that identical part right? Couldn’t he do that from the get-go if that were the goal? And if we are all meant to be the same, heaven is gonna be REEALLY boring. Just sayin’ is all.
Let me use some hyperbole here: God created dogs, too, right? Does God have an opinion on how a dog owner trains his dog? Should I swat him for pooping on the carpet or rub his nose in it? Can I feed him under the table? I’m not sure. (I am NOT comparing kids to dogs. Well, I knew this one kid once …… it could be apt. ) I mean, do I go to scripture to find answers to these things? God created plants and I’m always killing mine. Am I somehow not following God’s will in watering?
I’m being ridiculous, sure. But my point is this: Some areas ARE gray, but, thank God, he gave us brains and access to his wisdom. Seek it in all things, yes, but don’t expect that one person’s life and one person’s choices will look exactly like the next’s.
I was going to back away from this conversation but this is getting a bit frustrating. Patricia, you don’t seem to be hearing what we are saying. I don’t understand why you are here. You make it seem as though we are all angry people, disobedient to God, forgetful of scripture, irresponsible parents…have I left anything out?
Your tone comes across very condescending, and you really aren’t hearing what people here are saying. We do love the Lord, we do love His word and follow it, and we do make decisions based on His leading. What more needs to be said to convince you? This is MY last word on the matter. Just had to come on and stick up for the wonderful saints who post here. Try listening a little better instead of preaching to everyone.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer is sharing the same concerns Dr. James Dobson and others were sharing twenty some years ago. I ordered the books and tapes, and donated money to support the cause.
The battle is ongoing, and I think most Christians understand this.
Dobson’s book was, ”Children at Risk, Battling for the Hearts and Minds of Our Children.”
Dr. Lutzer said, “biblically, the education of the children is in the hands of the parents.” I think we all agree. He went on to say that all 3 forms of schooling are acceptable – public, faith-based, and homeschool.
I’ve actually done all three.
When the children were in public school we were involved, just as Dr. Lutzer suggests. We knew what they were studying and who they were spending time with, and coached most of the athletic teams they played on. We served on PTO’s and advisory councils.
Am I missing something? (scratching head)
I’m with Canary, what is your purpose for being here?
And what the heck’s with this “discrimination-free zone” stuff? Is that what you’re calling commenters’ references to Christian liberty?
And another thing, what’s with all the “blessed if’s?”
“Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view? Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?”
I too am completely befuddled by this conversation. I’m truly sorry, Patricia, but try as I might, for some reason I am just not tracking with you here.
In all areas of life, my husband and I endeavor to follow God and His Ways outlined for us in His Word. We have diligently taught God’s Word to our kids, and in doing so, hope they will be light and salt in their generation. We have not compromised God’s standards because of the culture around us. I’m genuinely confused as to why you would say that. In addition, I am not still hurt and blinded by my SGM experience. It was LONG ago. I am not angry with you either. I am adamant and even passionate about holding onto God’s Word, in this case God’s Word concerning the priesthood of the believer. Not sure why you were offended??? Maybe because I referred to “you”? I meant this to be the editorial “you”, not literally YOU. Maybe that will help?
I see and share your concern about public schools and the state of morality in our nation. I think it is appalling that California is trying to pass these discrimination-free zones you brought up. I am greatly concerned what will happen to our country if we turn away from God. I believe we should live our lives according to His principles. But in the gray areas, I believe we have liberty in Christ. Are we really that far apart?
“That’s why I keep saying over and over that all that matters is what God thinks. Not what I think. Not what anyone else thinks and not what SGM thinks. But some of YOU aren’t getting it.”(to herself, “but I certainly do.”)
Yep, as thick as oatmeal: “There probably are Biblically-minded Christians who will visit this thread (to herself, “but they certainly haven’t arrived here yet.”) and conclude that few here are really interested in what the scriptures have to say outside of freely given grace (REALLY??). Do you feel grateful enough to God to want to please Him in the way you conduct your life? Or do you think you can live and think however you want without even considering God?” Ok, lets turn your “polite” questions from above into ______________ statements:
1. You are not Biblically minded
2. You don’t really care what the scriptures have to say
3. You are ungrateful to God and so conduct your lives in shallowness here.
4. You think freedom means that you no longer need to consider what God thinks about your lives.
How poorly this sounds and reflects not upon those it seems you mean to admonish, but upon the admonisher. Veiling insulting, unknowing words in polite questions makes them no less patronizing. You’ve only just arrived. Why would you presume a secret view into hearts, determining that we possess a lack of motivation to seek God’s perspective of our situations? Wondering what your tie is to SGM, that has emboldened you to appear and proclaim our need for more biblical application? Have you attended a SG church? Hope For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Is. 55:8-9
How about we admit that an online forum is a lousy place to carry on a conversation, quit talking past each other, and get back to trying to figure out why the folks who are celebrating at metro have any hope for change?
The congregation (The Church) still has zero voice. 4 men (assuming each of them has a voice) will decide for hundreds, because they’re just-that-special.
The just-that-special senior pastor can’t manage his own household, and yet he’s going to be your very own Moses. How wonderful for the saints who attend MLC.
Jim, You said “the congregation (at Metro) still has zero voice.”
………….And the wheels keep on a ‘turnin……….
We are grateful for the steps leadership has taken in bringing aboard the helps for bringing “issues” into the light…Family Meetings….Question and Answer time….Pastoral expressions of remorse etc etc……..its all so familiar………Can’t help but to remember apostle Gene E’s words to “The 3 (courageous) Couples” in the Chesapeake Story when all the horribly destructive counseling and leadership travesties were brought to confrontative light: “These pastors just need to learn a different way”——Learn a ‘different way’????????? We believe their ‘different way’ has become defined as continuing on in their same sgm structured polity rulings (sorry, cannot address them as pastoring),but in a more camouflaged manner. Because the “upper leadership” (cj,dh,ss,ge,jp,etc) take NO responsibility or see they have created a simmering destructive sub-culture which continues to control and distract Believers from walking in their full redemption as sons and daughters…and being led by Holy Spirit.
PDI Past, Your post brought lotsa nods in our household…particularly:
“……..people (in sgm) with wonderful and vulnerable hearts are damaged,abused, and picked-clean.—……The corporate structure adopted by sgm and the wholly-controlled subsidiary churches pretty much precludes anyone but the leaders exercising any meaningful control…………….The only power to bring change within such organizations comes from the legally powerless members,exercising power by withholding the financial life-blood that is so close to the soul of the corporation.”
As sgm’sUNBiblical counseling and authoritative soul wounding practices continue to be brought into the light–they have experienced loss in memberships and consequently necessarily withdrawing staff: Administrator positions in Chesapeake, Denvers, and Atlanta can no longer be financed. ——However, they will continue to ‘plant churches’ etc etc—because the wheels keep on a turnin…no matter what…….. We continue to pray that Gods Light of truth will continue to expose every crevice of life-killing legalism which has hi-jacked so many of Gods people.——Continuing to pray for Metro people— that they will awaken….and fight……..and remember that Jesus proclaimed Himself as “the Resurrection and the Life”—He is Savior Redeemer—not a law enforcer.
My husband was asking me yesterday if many families had left ML, and are they still leaving? We also wonder why these pastors are not “de-gifted” as others have been for less “sin”. I told him I’d ask …
Canary, Gracie, Waters, DB et al – thank you for your passion.
Jim – thank you for your moderating.
Patricia – I hope you will stick around. We all have wonderful Freedom in Christ – to seek Him and find Him and live in Him.
Favorite passages: ( Matt 6:33, Heb 11:6, and Romans 8)
Appreciate the site and your commitment to help people recover. There is life beyond PDI/SGM!!
As a previous PDI pastor of many years my experience and perspective I share is mine and do not want to speak for others. I believe the majority of the pastors are caught in an authority matrix wanting to serve God and be pleasing to Him and obeying the higher authorities of SGM. Because of the fear of being disqualified or “de-gifted” they are beholden to their ‘bosses” rather than the leading of the Holy Spirit.
There is a misplaced trust in men over God. Confusion takes place as to what is the SGM model of authority and the Biblical model of authority because there is a vast difference concerning what fruit is borne when there are disagreements or challenges. After I resigned from PDI, I revisited some passages that would have helped me if I would have stayed with them. Hope they might help somebody out there:
When Shepherd intoxicated with authority and ambition: (Ezek 34, Jer 25)
1 – They destroy and scatter the sheep
2 – The sheep are left unattended which are considered evil deeds by the Lord
3 – They feed themselves while the flock goes hungry
4 – They look to their own prosperity and neglect the flock
5 – They don’t strengthen the sickly
6 – They don’t heal the diseased
7 – They don’t comforted the broken
8 – They have not sought the lost
9 – They, with force have, dominated the flock (flock serves the shepherd)
10 – The sheep are scattered and weakened to become food for every beast of the field
The fruit when Shepherds lead and care with the heart of God:
1 – They will be fed and cared for
2 – They will be fruitful and multiply
3 – They will not be afraid or terrified of the shepherds
4 – None will be missing (rejected or ostracized)
5 – The weak will be strengthen, the sick and diseased will be healed and the broken comforted
6 – The shepherds will search and seek out the sheep and deliver them from the beasts of the field
7 – They will be given fresh water and a place of rest
8 – They will bind up the broken and strengthen the sick
Thankyou, Irv, for communicating here and testifying to the fact that there is life (abundant!) after sgm!!!
Thankyou,too, for posting the fruits of Christ-like pastoral shepherding contrasted with the consequences of misplaced trust of men over God. You certainly carry a significantly needed insight.
Welcome! Thank you, thank you for your post. The proverbial nail has been hit on the head. A friend of mine brought Ez. 34 to our ex-pastor, who completely ignored her. If only he had listened. He has since been “shanked” for the very abuses she was pointing out to him. Too sad.
I hope you are walking and pastoring by faith and in freedom, away from the control you were in. We highly value your perspective. I have printed your post for my husband and I to go over. There is a lot to learn in what you wrote. Thanks again.
I just tried posting twice but neither is showing up, not even as being in moderation. Either they disappeared into cyberspace or you might get duplicates of what I said!
I was actually enjoying Patricia’s comments. What I get from them is that church is not values-neutral, that it does need to give input on practical/spiritual matters and then freely leave these gray area choices to the individual families. In other words, say, “Please seriously consider the ways that your lifestyle choices will affect your life and your family. This is what we have observed with many situations. How will this apply to you?” Home schooling and moms being at home with young kids are great (in my mind generally preferable) choices for those who are willing and able, and I’m glad that SGM encourages these. But I have not a shred of condescension toward those who can’t do it this way for whatever reason. They don’t have to justify anything to me. On the other hand, no one should be silenced for sharing what they think are the benefits of the way they personally do things, as long as they aren’t bashing other people. I’m glad for the people who did that for me when we had young kids and we were making those kinds of decisions.
BTW, my “legalism and false humility” antenna are on pretty high alert, and I tend to be skeptical about whatever I hear when I walk in any Metro meeting, but I think Danny preached quite well on Sunday. He didn’t shy away from the church problems, and he shared several times about “this is the way we thought, but there is so much more to it than we understood” — especially in terms of the man-centered thinking that if we all had good marriages, good parenting, good finances then everything was OK. He reminded us that we can have the joy of Jesus whether or not things are going well outwardly, whether or not is looks like we are being successful. He also said that there was too much focus on judging the inner motives of the heart, and that we don’t need to afraid of what other people in the church think. He spoke of the on-going victory over discouragement and despair that we can have from the resurrection of Christ. We are the Bride of Christ — he already knows our problems, and isn’t surprised by them, but when he looks at us, he sees beauty, not sin. Do we look around and see only ugliness in the church, or by eyes of faith do we see the beautiful Bride? (I must say, it really does take eyes of faith when churches make such messes… But then again, I have to realize we are part of the Church as a whole throughout nations and generations, not just this local body at the moment.) I was quite pleased. If you weren’t there, you can listen to it on-line.
Whether or not we stay in the long run, though, is another matter. That will depend on whether we see substantial steps in the right direction with leadership issues, not just the inspiring sermons from the pulpit. I do love the people at Metro, though: good people who need healing and wisdom. Can I be part of the solution? Maybe, but the spiritual health of my family takes priority over that. I guess the best thing for us to do is pray for God’s leading. That’s the whole point of everything anyway, being led by God and not man.
Canary April 12th, 2010 at 11:38 am
My husband was asking me yesterday if many families had left ML, and are they still leaving? We also wonder why these pastors are not “de-gifted” as others have been for less “sin”. I told him I’d ask …
I would be happy to reply. I am personally aware of 15 family units who have left MLC since all this was exposed this past August of 2009. I am also aware of another 6 families who are on the fence. Sunday are thin.
I am not sure what the leadership at MLC does not get. I had 2 people call me today and ask what the skinny is and why I left. The family meeting should tell the tale well. All I can say to people is not to take on my issues or offenses. There is enough stuff out there. Take what you see and bring it. See how leadership responds to you. It won’t take long.
The train of thought at MLC with the pastoral team seems to be: 1. if you go with an issue they” bid you farewell and tell you to find a church that works for you”, 2.if you approach them about where is the accountability or how about an elder board to hold the team accountable now that we have not one, not two, but all three pastors admitting long standing sin patterns you are told “ we do not see that in scripture”
OK personally I do not see an entire team admitting and confessing long term sin issues allowable in scripture either without removal. I woud agree, where is the “degifting”. all of this and to read the new leadership statement on the web page making these guys sound well trained and recommended and accountable leaves a sick feeling in my gut. How about posting the public confession on the web page? That would be humility. These guys could take a lesson from John Piper in his own “seaching the soul”. John saw things and is stepping down until the end of Decemeber of 2110. The team at MLC want to run the church. Whats up with that?????????
We had “confession” in August. My meetings with leadership would not reflect that, if nothing else it made is worse. Now in March they “confess” again. We have not seen repentance from the first go around. As they have told us for decades, confession is not repentance. Repentance is change. I am not holding my breath.
FSGP, Waters & Canary — Thanks for the kind words.
Canary – I have not returned to a pastoral position since I left PDI but I am very involved with training Christian leaders (church and marketplace). First order of business is learning to live and lead beyond the cross experiecing the glory of His kingdom. It is very exciting when men and women see and start living in their freedom in Christ and the power of ‘His’ righteousness and understand their potential for world impact. If we are in the 11th hour that Christ is set to return, then we have much to do.
As I read and understand the word, Jesus return is predicated by the ‘gospel of His kingdom’ being preached in all the earth. (Matt 24:14) and we make go and make disciples of all nations – So to God be the glory – thy kingdom come on earth as it is heaven. Blessings!
Irv
Eye Robot –
You’ve made a lot of general accusations that could be interpreted or understood in many ways. Can you specifically explain/justify why you believe the Metro pastors have sinned in such a manner that they should step down or be put in a position where an oversight board should be installed to ensure they “behave”?
Thanks
Confused? April 13th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
“You’ve made a lot of general accusations that could be interpreted or understood in many ways. Can you specifically explain/justify why you believe the Metro pastors have sinned in such a manner that they should step down or be put in a position where an oversight board should be installed to ensure they “behave”? Dear Confused, First off, if you were at both family meetings you should be far from confused. Leadership named their sin in August. They named more sin in March. I DID NOT name their sins. They did. Confession is not biblical repentance. There was no fruit when confronted by a pastor on their own staff < Todd> for over a year. Dave Harvey, Wayne Brooks and other were aware of issues again, for over a year. There was no fruit after the August family meeting. Danny then requested help in late fall from Dave Harvey. Why are you confused? How much unrepentant confessed sin should the congregation allow? Maybe a closer reexamination of the biblical requirements for leadership should be investigated by those at MLC left behind. No deacons, no elders, no accountability and you feel safe? It sounds a bit codependent to me. If your issues are that you need a reason why the entire pastoral team should be removed maybe you should change your moniker to blind. Confused does not even come close.
Confused? April 13th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
This is what confessed sin from leadership should look like. This is what HUMILITY in a pastor looks like. If you have ever heard of John Piper I would suggest reading this article on John taking a leave of absence for much much less of an issue than what MLC s going through. READ IT Thoroughly! This is only a SMALL piece of the article.
John Piper’s Upcoming Leave
Download:
By John Piper March 28, 2010
As you may have already heard in the sermon from March 27-28, the elders graciously approved on March 22 a leave of absence that will take me away from Bethlehem from May 1 through December 31, 2010. We thought it might be helpful to put an explanation in a letter to go along with the sermon.
I asked the elders to consider this leave because of a growing sense that my soul, my marriage, my family, and my ministry-pattern need a reality check from the Holy Spirit. On the one hand, I love my Lord, my wife, my five children and their families first and foremost; and I love my work of preaching and writing and leading Bethlehem. I hope the Lord gives me at least five more years as the pastor for preaching and vision at Bethlehem.
But on the other hand, I see several species of pride in my soul that, while they may not rise to the level of disqualifying me for ministry, grieve me, and have taken a toll on my relationship with Noël and others who are dear to me. How do I apologize to you, not for a specific deed, but for ongoing character flaws, and their effects on everybody? I’ll say it now, and no doubt will say it again, I’m sorry. Since I don’t have just one deed to point to, I simply ask for a spirit of forgiveness; and I give you as much assurance as I can that I am not making peace, but war, with my own sins.
I am asking questions as a learner. I am not here to accuse or attack
I’m still not clear on what specifically you are concerned with or how you have come to the conconclusion that they are unrepentant. What have they done (specifically) that you find them as being unrepentant of and what would it look like for them to be repentent?
Is this primarily a church government issue to you? Would your evaluation of them be different if they changed to a more congregational or presbyterian (or otherwise) style?
Also, just a thought, but I don’t think that John Piper is the gold standard for how to respond in every situation. It’s easy to point to a situation you are unfamiliar with and say the same solution should be applied to another situation you are familiar with and while it may be true, it may not always be appropriate.
“I was actually enjoying Patricia’s comments. What I get from them is that church is not values-neutral, that it does need to give input on practical/spiritual matters and then freely leave these gray area choices to the individual families. “
I want to honor Jim’s request, MetroStill, but I thought that’s what*WE* were saying. I joined in the conversation because I felt Patricia was implying that scripture specifically addresses the gray areas being discussed.
Thanks for that link, Paul.
Confused..
Most of what you are asking I answered above and in prior posts. Are you a member at MLC or are you just an inquiring mind? That may help me serve you in trying to figure out what you do not understand. I would be considered a long time member, insider and along with 15 other family units have approached the MLC leadership team about specific areas of sins and failings. All of us have left MLC since the fall of 2009 to present due to the lack of repentance in specific areas that they themselves confessed.
I am perplexed what is it you are attempting to learn. Confession does not equal repentance.
As for church government goes, I would agree JP may not be the standard as you put it, but God is. Take the time to read the article with biblical references on polity. Wayne Grudem and others would concur with biblical structure as well. Plurality of elders in not scriptural and that is the stance of SGM and MLC. If you look on the SGM website/bookstore Confused you will find all Dave Harvey’s books on POLITY gone! Why? They know there stance is wrong and has been for 30 years. I remember when there was no senior pastor and they were co leaders. That is another story in itself.
Eye Robot – I too remember with fondness when we were co-leaders with a mix of paid elders and non-paid elders. Friends first leaders second! Deferring to another’s gifts! Guarding and protecting each other’s weakness (rather than exploiting). Then came the revelation and return to the laity and clergy model and the Sr Pastor (ruling or lead pastor). As leaders we went from being shepherds and servants to being the authority of God in people’s lives. Naturally the flow of serving was reversed!
This is probably over the top for some but I will say it anyway. I don’t trust any professional politician because their first priority is to protect their own well-being over their constituents. I find the same analogy with the professional pastor!!
You are reading my mail, so to speak. I too remember how much I enjoined co-leading a small group study. Guarding/protecting vs exploiting? That comment is so spot on that it is painful to read and think about!
“Naturally the flow of serving was reversed!” That is a keen diagnosis of the underlying problem!
Truthfully, Irv? I would probably trust a politician before I would a pastor. I expect a politician to be dishonest. The legacy of SGM with me (and my family) is that I expect a pastor to exploit and cause hurt.
Thanks FSGP – Would love to connect with you off line if you are so inclined. If so shoot me an email to irv911help@yahoo.com — Not a problem if you are not!!
Truthfully, Irv? I would probably trust a politician before I would a pastor. I expect a politician to be dishonest. The legacy of SGM with me (and my family) is that I expect a pastor to exploit and cause hurt.
What a sad legacy for the leaders involved to have left with many of us who followed their “rule”.
Many years back, something was said by our pastors that should have immediately caused me concern. However, I was far too young to understand. They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision. Red alert! Abandon ship!
Canary quoted something she heard “many years back-
“They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision.
A pastors role is seen quite differently in scripture.
Ephesions 4: 11 – 12 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thanks
Canary – your statement: “Many years back, something was said by our pastors that should have immediately caused me concern. However, I was far too young to understand.”
This really rings true. If we knew then, what we know now, would we have bought-in to the twisted reality produced by the PDI/SGM machine? The “knowing” part does not necessarily apply to a deep academic knowledge of theology, but rather a better understanding of the nature of human beings.
Too often, the worship or awe of leaders can slip into our lives and blind us to reality. By the time our eyes are opened wider, these leaders have grown to really like the golden pedestal they have been placed on and their pride does not allow them to easily accept questions that threaten that high place. (Satan does indeed love the pride of us humans . . . it gives him such an easy way in to damage and destroy.) The leaders are then left with the options of either climbing down from their perch – or – helping those that would dare question them to move on.
The dynamic that tends to develop in such organizations is the formation of a leadership royalty (and family), surrounded by the loyal long-time follower group (motivated by a wide variety of reasons). This central core of the organization remains fairly static over time (except for the occasional “degifting” to maintain order). The survival of such organizations is based on a broad financial and human resource foundation of new believers, seekers, visitors, young families focused on children, jobs and the acquisition phase of life and transfers looking for any number of things. This largest group, tends to have a significant desire to believe the best about the smiling leaders and instant-friends that they encounter at “the happiest place on earth”. Because of demographics, life patterns and eventual discernment, this group tends to see a fairly high turn-over. As long as those who leave are replace by equally-pliable group with sufficient financial resources, the leadership survives and has no real reason to change anything.
Canary quoted something she heard “many years back-
“They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision.
If I can be so bold to make a judgment concerning church leaders today. What I have observed, the church today is about “A man and His ministry”. The church has taken on a worldly concept of leadership under the guise of spiritual leadership. Result: the church today is a testament to the leader(s) not Christ.
So Canary is absolutely right – this is how the 21st century leaders think about the church. In their minds, it is about their vision, their ministry and their calling and the church be damned. Those who gain favor and promotion are those committed to the pastor’s vision. With regards to SGM, it is about the ‘A team’ and everyone performing for the good of SGM not necessarily the good of the congregation or the community they are attempting to reach. I would love to say it is an affliction of SGM alone but it isn’t.
It has become about the big name, big church and multitude ministry. Jesus developed leaders with His life not teaching to the multitudes. In my opinion leaders are more impressed with what they have to say not about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. Let me take it a step further, equipping the saints for the ministry today is not about equipping the saints to engage the culture or the bring the gospel of the kingdom to their neighborhoods or communities but all about the church (the local assembly). Check the fruit!!! The vast majority of church growth is transfer growth.
To all Christians I would counsel don’t listen to what they (leaders) say watch what they do!!!! For example: when a pastor stands in front a church and communicates how much he loves the church, what are the actions that prove the statement? Or does he love the fact that the church comes to serve his vision and to hear the great things he has to share with them.
The Bible says that to those who try and save their lives will lose it but those who lose their life for His sake shall find it. My observations tell me that with pastors today there is a disconnect with the world and the mission to the nations and it is all about them (their teaching, their congregation, their leaders, ad nauseum). The result is the church has lost its life and replaced it with a form of godliness but they have denied its power The Bible says avoid such men as these (2 Tim 3:5).
I don’t mean to be harsh but we live in desperate times and the times call for desperate measures. Where are the Sons of Issachar???
Along with the toxic leadership culture that seems to have gained such strength in PDI/SGM, maybe one of the other difficulties could be the internal orientation of the corporation church. The call is to serve as witnesses “to the ends of the earth” – not within the bubble of “the happiest place”.
If there was a true pursuit of this calling, what would these churches look like?
less wealthy
more diverse
more energy to evangelism, service and care for neighbors
messy! more people who had no fear of transparency
people asking inconvenient questions
people unimpressed with style and more concerned with substance
I know that God calls different churches to different types of ministry – but he certainly never called them to be an insular holy-huddle.
Certainly “those people” are outwardly welcome at churches of the PDI/SGM machine, but it they don’t quickly have the look, vocabulary, life style and appropriate level of adoration and groveling before the leaders . . . they just will need to move along.
A quote by Wayne Jacobsen that may pertain here: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
Hi. It has been a really long time since I’ve posted on here, and I think I need to change my moniker to something new, like healing in process or almost healed or something, because I have experienced a significant amount of healing since my SGM experience several years ago.
On occasion, I will still run into someone who has been an unfortunate casualty of this ministry, and when I do, this causes me to re-examine my own personal experience there, relect upon what exactly happened, my own personal observations, and what I’ve learned through the whole process.
And, during this time of reexamination, I usually end up getting on this blog or googling something like, is SGM a cult? Which, incidentally, is how I felt when I left and even today, upon reflection.
I am not saying that SGM is a cult, per se, but I think there was an environment there that lended itself to a cult like mentality.
I’ve not read all of the comments here; I just got on today, and there are so many. But, I just wanted to share my perspective from my experience because I do see that there are some people on here that disagree and seem to be defensive of SGM.
Many times I’ve tried to put my finger on the main problem there, and it has been difficult, but my husband and I have been discussing it today as this issue has resurfaced in our lives again because of my path intersecting with someone who has experienced some pain and difficulty in the last couple of years.
I think some of the difficulty in pin pointing the issues lie in the fact that SGM is very concerned about “right doctrine”, and on the surface, everything looks good.
What my husband and I talked about a while ago is that it seems like SGM tries to systematize everything, to put everything in neat little categories and boxes. This is what a Christian looks like, come to us and conform to our standard and our image of how a Christian should look. This is what “biblical fellowship” looks like, this is how a Christian family should educate their children, these are how family relations and dynamics work, this is how two young people begin the process of marriage, you must discipline your children in this manner, and so on.
Not only that, but let’s put God in a box, too. This is His position on a stillborn infant, someone who believes in Jesus and is a Catholic…since leaving SGM I’ve come to the conclusion that there really are some things about God that are mysteries, and there are tensions that we just can not reconcile this side of Heaven, and that is OK…it really is OK.
Although humility was preached a lot there, I believe that SGM had (or still has?) an air of superiority about them, as though they are the only ones getting it right, they are the only ones with the “right doctrine”, “we” are the “local church”…I think a lot of this was evidenced by the fact that they never (that I’m aware of) ever partnered with any local churches or ministries. Maybe a few in other countries.
Jesus tells us that we are salt, and that means actually getting out of the shaker and permeating our society, giving it flavor, slowing down the process of decay…
It seemed that if they (meaning leadership) didn’t agree with every little “jot and tittle” of someone’s theology/doctrine, then that particular person/ministry was just sort of written off.
And, I think that there was just an inordinate emphasis on the authority of the leadership (well…there was actually an inordinate emphasis on quite a few things…submission, indwelling sin…)
It is very difficult to describe the enviornment and atmosphere to outsiders or even to folks within the movement that just don’t seem to “get it.” I think as long as you have no major problems or issues and you’re sort of towing the party line, things go OK.
But, if you face a personal crisis, and you follow the “prescribed formula” and don’t show the expected results…well…that’s a whole different ballgame.
My perception is it was very legalistic (although God’s grace was preached a lot) and authoritarian, and this environment had a very negative, harmful affect on my life.
We were only a part of our church for maybe four years, but it had serious repurcussions for me, and it has taken me a good, full three years to reach a place of peac and a measure of healing.
And although I probably still deal with issues every now and then, I am finally able to discuss this from a more rational perspective, able to make observations about what happened, what went wrong (or what is wrong), what I’ve learned, how good has come from this, as opposed to a place of deep, deep woundedness.
God placed good people around me to facilitate my healing, and He has also seen fit to use my past experience to bring comfort to those who’ve been hurt as well, and I am deeply thankful for that. I think of that wonderful verse in 2 Corinthians …
“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God.”
I do think/hope that things are changing, and I did receive an apology from my Pastor there; I just wanted to once again share, from my perspective, what seemed to be a couple of the biggest issues, at least during my time of attendance. Maybe this will be helpful for some who just don’t seem to get it.
Thanks for allowing me to share. Peace and blessings to all of you.
Confused? April 15th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thank
Yes, CONFUSED>>>>>>>>
The whoel article is on polity as prescibed in the NT. Check on Dave Harveys books on Polity yet?? ALL GONE!
Confused? April 15th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thank
Yes, CONFUSED>>>>>>>>
The whole article is on polity as prescribed in the NT. Check on Dave Harveys books on Polity yet?? ALL GONE!
Welcome back. Your post is very helpful in describing some of the weaknesses of the sgm organization. Isn’t amazing how your understanding grows the further you get from your sgm experience? I really hope things are changing there. It is a good sign that your pastor apologized. It is also great that you are moving forward and that you have friends to help.
My husband and I were talking yesterday about the simplicity of Christ. Being a believer really shouldn’t be as complicated as some churches make it. It is so refreshing to the soul to return to the One who sacrificed so much, and to learn from Him. His burden is light.
Hope to see your name change soon, no longer wounded!
EyeRobot— Perhaps SGM leadership is scrambling to authenticate their newest polity/doctrine declarations (and deletion of their old Biblically errored ones)….wonder if they will ever communicate their changes to their congregants whilst confessing their errors of the previous DH and JP polity writings??????— Well– true,genuine, authentic,transparent, humble men (men….m-e-n) would do so…………..
For the yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrs of horriffic counseling practices and law-driven leadership control———–sgm leadership takes no responsiblity.
In our familys restoration process, we are studying Colossians with a group of people and a pastor.—Colossians,the little packed full book revealing our sufficiency in Christ!
One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
“The message of the Gospel: ‘We (redeemed Believers) are fully reconciled and are sons forever. When we TRY to be a son we are walking ‘in the flesh’.—Pauls answer to this: Col 2:22b (we have died with Christ,have risen with Christ and are in Him—so why would we submit ourselves to the commandments and teachings of men)
“The ability to walk in the spirit and say no to sin doesn’t come from rules etc but a mind that has been captured by the RISEN CHRIST AND WHO WE ARE IN HIM.
And in Him, we walk in Him, to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…..and to love your neighbor as yourself.” ( Matt 22:37-39)*********** There would be evident clear fruit in this command to love others: We would NOT demean,cast-out,discard, seek to rule, bring emotional or spiritul harm,
misrepresent,speak disengeuiously of,cover up abuses,twist scriptures,seek our own agenda or doctrine, retain and promote puffed-up leaders. We have seen and do still witness these attributes in SGM leadership/apostles….and …. we continue to watch,speak the truth,and go forward as sons and daughters of the Risen Christ.
Praying for you,’refugees’ and ‘survivors’— that you (and we) will come to know, more and more, the unfailing love of the Father God Who has “qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescueD us from the domain of darkness, and transferreD us to the Kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” (Col 2:12-13) This is the Good News we can walk in and share and proclaim to those in our ‘field’ and the world!!——- Blessings to you all———
Waters, wrote:
“One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
“The message of the Gospel: ‘We (redeemed Believers) are fully reconciled and are sons forever. When we TRY to be a son we are walking ‘in the flesh’.—Pauls answer to this: Col 2:22b (we have died with Christ,have risen with Christ and are in Him—so why would we submit ourselves to the commandments and teachings of men)
“The ability to walk in the spirit and say no to sin doesn’t come from rules etc but a mind that has been captured by the RISEN CHRIST AND WHO WE ARE IN HIM.”
ABSOLUTELY–AMEN!!!! What you wrote is pregnant with LIFE and rich in TRUTH, and the WAY to walk. If we would, instead of reading His WORD, looking for rules to follow, we too would turn our world upside down, because the resurrected Christ would spill out of us onto those in our proximity. Grace woos us to genuine intimacy with the LIVING CHRIST, and from that and only that come real spiritual fruit that has little to do with our striving in the law.
Waters April 17th, 2010 at 11:34 am YES AMEN PREACH IT <<<LOL>>>> WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That would be what I have found in the new season.
Waters, wrote:
“One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
BTW Waters — Great post!!!!
I had not seen this quote before but it is painfully true. The solution has to come by changing our core belief system of our identity in and with Christ. I would submit that too many Christians are operating under a skewed belief system. As long as leadership does not have a Biblical view of God’s people, there will be blood. Government by its very nature produces an adversarial relationship (them and us). This is not the kingdom of God – righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
As long as believers continue to see and identify themselves as sinners then there will be inappropriate government within the church. We were once sinners but now we are sons of God and the sons of God are led by the spirit. Jesus came to set us free that we would be free men never again subject to a yoke of slavery. Freedom and grace have become ‘four letter’ words in Christendom because they have been defined by the law not God’s glory.
I have heard so many pastors say you have to teach grace and freedom in balance. In balance to what? A good balance of law and grace! Or a good balance of slavery and freedom. All believers are citizens of God’s holy nation, part of His royal priesthood, and a chosen race. We are new creations given a divine nature, the mind of Christ and sealed in the Holy Spirit. His grace is ‘lavished’ upon us in Christ. God’s glory now clothes us (put on Christ) and we are to be the expression of God’s glory in the earth. His law is not His glory.
We have been made perfect (completing all requirements for righteousness) and we are the righteousness of Christ. Why do we continue to try and attain righteousness when we are His righteousness?
As long as leaders continue to see people as sinners the focus will be sin. The more sin the more law. The more law the more sin. How many of God’s people have to be destroyed before we get the picture. When we share and read the stories of good people who have been hurt and in some cases destroyed, are these the example of grace, mercy and freedom we have in Christ? Is this the love that the world will see and know we are His disciples? I don’t think so.
When we choose to sin, we are not walking in freedom and grace.
We are made alive, brand new, and set free from the power of sin because our risen savior Jesus, yet we still choose to sin.
Sin hinders our relationship with our holy God.
Throughout the new testament there are lists of specific sins. We are exhorted and warned to turn and run from these sins and embrace the freedom we have in Jesus when we are tempted to sin. We are given specific instructions to repent and ask forgiveness when we do choose to sin.
Pastors regularly point to these sins listed in scripture as further exhortation to turn from temptation and sin so that our own personal walk with Jesus is unhindered.
As Christians, we still choose to sin, and this can cause pain and suffering to others. However, I am also aware of many years worth of testimonies of God’s grace, love, provision, healing, kindness, mercy, joy, and freedom in Christ. All of this serves as a witness of God’s love to the world. Even when we sin, we demonstrate to the world God’s love and mercy as we make things right according to His word.
Appreciate your comments. I totally understand where you are coming from and it was what I taught for years. In the process of healing post PDI the Lord began puting me back together and I began to see the power of His redemption, His righteousness and His glory with respects to His kingdom.
From what I have heard taught by leaders and my observations, Christians for the most part identify themselves more with their sin rather than their identity as new creations in Christ. So in affect we live on this side of cross trying to overcome the flesh not on the victorious life beyond the cross in the spirit of Christ. The tendency is then to spend much of our energies trying to overcome sin rather than our life in Christ – “it is no longer I who live but Christ living His life in me”.
Leaders constant reinforce the church with their sinfulness keeping their energy and focus on the sin and the law, whereas we the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. As a new creation focus and energy can shifted to the things of His Spirit, His kingdom, His righteousness and His glory.
Freedom comes first understanding the reality of what Christ did on the cross and second to appropriate this reality in our lives by faith beyond the cross. (Col 2:6) In my opinion Christians who do not understand our freedom Christ will immediately be concerned about sinning rather than being released to live in Christ and Him in us.
The glory (Ex 33 & 34) of God resides in us through Christ. Seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, is placing of the utmost priority the citizenship of His kingdom and renewing of our minds to the truth of His righteousness in us. (over simplified)
The Christian life is not about the mortification of sin – otherwise the cross is rendered powerless in our lives – but to the fulfillment of His plan and purposes in the earth for which He has set us apart in Christ. The Christian life is about enjoying God and expressing who He is to the world – an expression of His glory and reconciling men who are lost to God!!
Though I understand “choosing to sin or not to sin” I believe it is an identity issue; identify with Christ’s life, crucifixion (death), burial and resurrection or do I identify with Adam. I have been made a slave to righteousness in Christ It a walk of faith – knowing what I believe will be the fruit of my life (Rom 8).
Good conversation on my favorite topic. I think Irv and 30 are both partially right.
We can’t ignore the mortification passages any more than we can ignore the identity passages.
SGM’s error (although “Sons and Daughters” is a step in the right direction) is an overemphasis on Rms 7, NFI’s error is a misinterpretation of Rms 7, thinking Paul was referring to his life before his conversion.
30years…,
I was about to reply to Irv Re:April 19th, 2010 at 10:54 am and noticed your most recent post.
(I can’t believe I’m going to say this……….)
With a few exceptions, I ….. agggggggggr. Aggggggrrrrhu.
(Deep breath) I ………. agree ……….with you.
Uh!
Cough!
I need a drink!
Okay better.
All kidding aside, (I have almost NEVER agreed with 30years…)
I want to comment on Irv’s post. Your wording, Irv, in post April 19th, 2010 at 10:54 am can leave someone thinking that we can be “sinless” in this life. If not, perhaps a clarification from you can help.
******NEWS FLASH******
Irv did reply before I was ready to post this and makes a little more sense now. Thanks Irv.
******RETURN TO POST IN PROGRESS****
I would agree with 30years here that we do, in fact, sin even though we are currently redeemed. It is a theological tension that Luther commented on saying we are “simultaneously saints, and sinners.”
Waters quoted from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
Great quote! Thanks Waters.
This is where I strongly separate from the SGM model of “seeking your sin” or “killing your sin.”
Yes 30, we do choose to sin. We have an advocate to testify on our behalf that the sin we (just) committed has been paid for in full. The Holy Spirit convicts us of that sin, and we ask forgiveness and repent to God, and our relationship is restored.
Now, that restoration is not about re-salvation, it is like Peter mentioned concerning our prayers being hindered. There is a tension in our fellowship with God, and it needs to be corrected. Jesus paid the price for the sin, we need to be in a state of understanding of our sinful state, (yet paid for,) but not condemned.
I have a major problem with SGM pastors & the like who insist that THEY convict us of our sin. They can tell us what they observe, but if the Holy Spirit does not convict, well what ya gonna do? (I know what they did to my wife & me! Even after they finally admitted that the sin they accused us of never happened after all!)
What I propose is, instead of being focused on our own (and others) sins, we fix our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith, that is Jesus, and as we spend our life doing that, we are more aware of the penalty He paid each time we sin and are more and more quick to confess to God, and repent. Eventually we may not commit certain sins anymore, but we will always sin, we have this body of death to deal with.
My problem with SGM is that instead of encouraging each other to good works, SGM has people too focused on each others sin to even get to anything resembling good works. Eventually everyone is beat down or full of pride and you get a sick place called an “SGM church.”
There is a song that is sung in SGM and other churches where the chorus states that we will never know how much sin He covered when Jesus died on the cross. (I can’t recall the exact words.) I disagree theologically with that song. We WILL know, on the day we give an account for our every deed and word. BUT, it will NOT be a time of embarrassment as some have implied. It will be for the purpose of declaring the full extent of the work of Christ on the cross! We will be rejoicing for our CHAMPION!
We should be spending this life learning more and more about our CHAMPION, not our sin. He defeated that sin. Yes we repent each time, but it should be a time for growing closer to HIM, not being beat down by a Pharisee (SGM Pastor, or drone).
It’s all about HIM, JESUS!
If it points to anything else, ……… WRONG ANSWER!!
Go back to JESUS, our CHAMPION.
Sin happens. (It’s so easy.)
I cry out to Jesus. (My Champion. My advocate.)
Defender, 30years, Jim — love the discussion – thanks!!
I was getting ready to send a note to you Jim as to whether our (my) discussions were in line with your blog when you posted a response to 30 and me. There doesn’t seem to be an absence of heavyweights on the site (LOL-not referring to real weight) so there doesn’t seem to be a problem mixing up a bit without offense or taking things personal but I was concerned about some who just need the affirmation, love and comfort.
If there are some guidelines to know please advise as I am pretty new around here.
I’m really glad that you’re here. We have few guidelines, and from what I’ve read, none would apply to you.
Gents, be nice to the ladies. Everyone, don’t come on here and call my guests bitter, although I may be accused of anything. No heresy.
If someone is bumping the curb, I’ll send them a note, or ask the gang to change the subject.
Although it may come as a surprise, I have some unwritten rules regarding what is said about SGM pastors, but all of that is handled behind the scenes.
I have a couple of questions for you from your post yesterday. You said “when we choose to sin, we are not walking in freedom and grace” Do you really believe that? So if I choose to sin I no longer enjoy the grace and the freedom Christ paid for on the cross?
If that is the case then grace and freedom are depended on my ability to choose not to sin?
If I choose to sin then I can choose not to sin which means that I can live a sinless life based on my right choices. If I am living a sinless life then I am truly experiencing the freedom Christ’s paid for and His grace?
If I continue to follow this train of thought, then I have to obey the law (sinlessness)for favor and righteousness?
I believe that whenI sin, I am not walking in freedom or grace – - in that particular area of my life at that moment. I am still a Christian. I am completely dependant on the Holy Spirit for the power to turn from the temptation of sin. When I choose to give in to those temptations, the Holy Spirit is still with me to show me the error of my ways and to give me the power to turn away, repent, and ask forgiveness.
There is nothing I can do to earn His favor or grace. There is nothing I could ever do that would replace what Jesus has done for me. There is life, joy, and peace in my relationship with Jesus, and I am grateful for all that He freely gives me. Yet, at times I choose to turn away from all of that, and sin. It is His grace alone that leads me back to Himself. He may speak directly to me. He may use scripture, a sermon, a friend, or some particular circumstance. But He leads me back to Himself because He loves me.
Agreed with you Jim, about the NF Romans 7 thing. Do agree with him on Rom 6, and where it leaves us, we are set free from sin, saints who sin rather than sinners who sin. It’s also wonderful to now be free to disagree on a point with a teacher, and yet still glean from their perspective, which I couldn’t/wouldn’t have before. I also agree w/you, they’re off on Apostleship.
Either way though on Romans 7, the focus is on the resulting freedom. We’re no longer in our sinful state as slaves, “thanks be to God,” we’re free.
It does matter how I consider myself, or Paul would not have instructed, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Rom. 6:11. and, “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.” Rom 8:6. It is a choice, how I will consider myself. If I am constantly thinking on my sin, considering myself a “sinner,” how could I follow Paul’s instructions to consider myself dead to sin? If I instead set my mind on the Spirit, there is life and peace.
Here is a link to a short essay by David Wilkerson entitled, “No Longer Slaves”. It was very helpful in understanding my freedom from sin. http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/7958
I am so enjoying this topic! (OUR FREEDOM IN CHRIST!)
When someone tells me to “Kill my sin” I just want to pop ‘em in the nose. (Give ‘em some sin to go fret over.)
Why would I want to focus my attention on that which is irrelevant to me. Sin has no power over me in God’s court of law.
I would much rather focus my attention on how to conduct myself in my new found freedom. It’s not about “avoiding sin”, it’s about how I express my life in appreciation for my freedom. The result? Possibly a little less sin in my life, but that’s not so much the goal, as is just wanting to please Him who freed me. (In which case I then actually refrain from popping people in the nose.)
It’s always about HIM, not my sin.
Thanks Canary, for that link.
Thanks Hope for the scripture.
I was wondering about the 30years! Does that mean you have been part of PDI/SGM for 30 years or is that your age? Just curious:)
Thanks for your clarity but I am still now sure I have it down yet – am I reading this correctly? “Freedom and grace in your life is dependent on your not sinning? “I believe that when I sin, I am not walking in freedom or grace”
“When I choose to give in to those temptations” – Again, are you able to choose not to give into those temptations and if you are able to make the right choice why would you ever make the wrong choice and fall from grace in that moment?
“There is nothing I can do to earn His favor or grace” If you choose to give into those temptations and fall from grace doesn’t that sound like you can earn his grace by your obedience to not sin or am I misreading that?
“It is grace alone that leads me back” – it sounds like you are cheapening God’s grace by sinning to begin with if you have the ability to choose not to sin.
And now I have additional confusion concerning sins that you commit and might not be aware of them – How does grace and freedom work in that scenario?
Appreciate your help in understanding what you want to communicate!
You’ve got it, Defender! Jesus has captured our hearts. If we love Him, we do not wish to do anything outside of His will. When our hidden faults and weaknesses (Psalm) get the better of us, who do we run to? Of course we run to God! It is His goodness that leads us to repent in the first place. That truth motivates me to follow Him ever so much more than sin digging could ever do. In this way, I am sanctified without even quite understanding how it is done. I’m more patient, more loving, more giving…because I am becoming like Christ by His Spirit. Less of me, more of Him…
I have been a member of PDI/SGM (CLC) for 30 years.
As a Christian, I am thankful and grateful for my relationship with the living God. On a daily basis, I enjoy His blessings, miracles, His awsome creation, the relationships He has given me, and on and on.
Because of Jesus, I have been set free from the power of sin. I am no longer a slave to sin.
I do not have to sin. Instead, I walk in freedom, grace, love, joy, and a deep sense of peace in my heart. Jesus is they very reason why I live.
With all of that, I am tempted to sin in my thoughts, words and actions. There are times throughout the day when I choose to sin in all of these catagories. If a driver butts in front of me and I call him names, I have sinned. If I think lustful thoughts, I have sinned. I have rejected God’s grace in these moments and chosen my own way of dealing with that situation. Why do I sin? Because at times, I think my way is better than God’s. Or I am looking for some pleasure or satisfaction in something other than God and my relationship with Him.
But when I choose to sin, whether I am aware of it or not, I am still God’s son. His Holy Spirit is still with me. Jesus is still my Lord and Savior. And because I am still His son, He loves me enough to show me my error, and give me the grace to repent and recieve forgiveness.
My only contribution in all of this is my choosing to sin. All of the rest is the work and mercy of the Holy Spirit.
I desire in my heart to demonstrate my love to God by doing His will, by obeying His word, and doing all to glorify Him. In my own strength, I can do none of this. By His spirit, I can. When I fall short by sinning, His holy spirit is there to correct me and keep me on the straight and narrow path.
There is nothing I can do to earn His favor. I simply recieve His love and mercy.
I’ll be the voice of dissent here. I am no fan of SGM as an organization or CJ as a person, but I applaud the two guys who are starting that SGMLetters site. They are thankful for the ministry they have personally received, and they are encouraging others to look for the good in particular pastors who have served them. I am acquainted with Nathan (who is from Metro Life) and have met Tony at least once since he was on a Mission:X team with one of my daughters. They are decent guys. There is a place for their site just as there is a place for SGMRefuge and SGMSurvivors. There is so much good to be celebrated in SGM churches, even if there is plenty of crud mixed in, too. If we want change (and I certainly do!), shouldn’t we be encouraging whatever is already noble, lovely, and true — so that there can be more of it in the future? Surely you don’t believe that God has his hands tied when someone walks into an SGM church? Do you have any faith that God can work here? I do, and I am willing to be proactive about calling for change while at the same time seeking out the evidences of grace that are already here.
I can think of a whole bunch of ways that I appreciate Danny, Benny, Mike, Jesse, Aaron, and Chip at Metro Life — even if they have screwed up and made a bunch of people (including me) very disgruntled. I have my concerns, too, which I have communicated to each of them at various times in person, on the phone, and by e-mail. Last fall, I was quite upset about a number of things related to legalism in the church (not the picky rules kind, but the intense focus on sin mortification and confrontation, especially at last summer’s marriage retreat), and was really tempted to blast them with a strong e-mail. I actually wrote it, but then put it aside for a while. In the meantime, God put it on my heart to start dwelling on a few specific ways in which each of them had blessed my life. So I wrote Appreciating the Pastors of Metro Life Church on my blog. I have also taken the time to communicate with each of them verbally the areas where I think they are doing well. If we don’t want to be ruled by an intense focus on sin and failure, shouldn’t we give them the same courtesy by lifting them up with positive encouragement where it is due? I am not talking about flattery, just honest gratitude — the kind we all need.
In addition to this, in the past week I have committed myself to praying for each of my pastors, their wives, and their ministries at Metro Life. I can’t even imagine trying to do what they do, and the burdens they need to bear. I pray for one each day, that God will pour out his grace, mercy, and wisdom into their lives. Our loving LORD specializes in bringing beauty out of ashes, and pouring forth the oil of joy to replace of a spirit of heaviness.
I write pretty consistently on grace, legalism, and abuse of authority issues, not only as I see it in SGM, but in the home schooling movement as well. Some of the articles I have written in the past several months include:
Well by now, anybody who already knows me has guessed who I am (and I have had my blog linked to the name MetroStill in my last few comments anyway), so I will sign off here:
Virginia Knowles
While I was writing my last post, the ones that other people wrote about SGMLetters disappeared. So mine might be a little confusing, if it even makes it past moderation!
I dumped the references to the letters blog because if they get any traffic, it won’t come from here. I’m not even sure if the guys are serious. When I first read it, I thought, “this must be tongue in cheek”.
I’m very much in favor of showing appreciation to our fellow believers who we love. The pastor worship in SGM is over the top, and is a part of the culture they’ve created which separates “clergy and laity”. The way they view themselves is unbiblical, and is the root of the problems with sgm. It informs their polity, which will make significant change very hard to accomplish.
The few situations that have afforded me a birds eye view into pastoral repentance have shown me something significant. Although repentance eventually occurred, it became obvious to me that the pastors involved were slower to repent than most believers I know.
I can’t promote an effort that will further convince these men that they are over, above, special, or different than us lowly sheep. The mindset is unbiblical and must die before anything changes.
WW’s 6:02 post was brilliant.
I’d ask all sgm members to consider this-are your pastors a part of the church or apart from the church?
I greet my pastors in the grocery store the same way I do any other church member. We sit at the same table at the youth banquet. We attend our sons’ ballgames together and coach their basketball games together. We stand side by side in prayer on Sunday morning prior to the service and then stand side by side in worship and praise of the Lord. We attend camp together. At the end of camp, we clean kitchens and bathrooms. I can list many other activities and other interaction with these men.
They look, dress, and talk no differently than anyone else I know.
For the most part, they do full time what the rest of us do part time. They are no more special than anyone else at CLC. We have physicians, lawyers, musicians, business owners, photographers, nurses, carpenters, electricians, and pastors. No one is more significant in the eyes of the Lord than anyone else. Myself and the folks at CLC that I know would also agree. I can’t speak for every member. There may be those who treat these guys as celebrities, but on the whole, I know of no one who worships the pastors at CLC.
Jim, how are you able to determine that pastor worship is over the top at SGM? This is a heart issue and I don’t see how you can conclude this.
I read the cover letter on the “letters” blog. They explained in great detail what they are about and what their motives are. I experience on a daily basis what those guys wrote, and believe they are sincere in their desire to obey God and His word in this project.
We haven’t been back to a “church” for years, but are getting excited about one in particular that seems to be really grace alone. I am hopeful.
G.D., that is exciting for you and your family. It isn’t even the church part I’m talking about, but the fact that you are ready to get out there again. A tremendous amount of healing has happened for you to get this far. So cool!
Having read 30years post, I will stand with Jim on the pastor/celebrity thing. It did happen. It does happen. Granted, we must also look at our own hearts as to why we put them on such high pedestals, but it was so much of the PDI culture that it is hard to decide who was responsible.
A person having been part of the same organization for 30 years must have a place of familiarity with the pastors that many others do not share. It has to be hard to be objective if one has been around for that long.
30, I’m continually amazed that your experience is across the board so radically different from what I’ve personally seen, and what I’ve heard from hundreds of people.
______, what you wrote resonates with me. I remember, especially near the end of our time at SGM, thinking to myself, “you don’t really fit here; when will you be really honest with yourself?” Yes, you have established some relationship, but are they real; will they endure without the walls of this SG “church?”
I remember standing in the foyer area after one of the meetings feeling lonely although in a crowd of hundreds. I felt so weird and out of place. I remember trying to connect with the Sr. Pastor, after I disagreed with him on what God wanted me to do and my “giftings!” He wanted more out of me; God wanted less. I sensed some attitudes of “shunning” from him, although very subtle. I remember how well he was able to look through me to someone much more willing to comply with the man in the very stead of God. I remember trying to talk with him, only to be ignored with a smile.
Although that time was painful, it was liberating, and caused us to hear the voice of Him who matters, directing us out–thankfully. We haven’t been back to a “church” for years, but are getting excited about one in particular that seems to be really grace alone. I am hopeful.
Hi 30,
Re: your 6:18 post this morning.
I am encouraged to see you expressing an understanding of your freedom in Christ and how to commune with Him individually for your own growth by the Holy Spirit.
Question:
How does that jibe with your pastor at your SG church?
Okay, more questions:
Does your pastor know you are free from your sin, or does he still tell you that you need to “kill it”?
Does your pastor try to tell you how to live your life, or does he let you get instructions of that kind from God directly, from the Holy Spirit?
Does your pastor know you think more highly of the Holy Spirit’s guidance than his?
If so, how does he respond???
These questions strike at the heart of our problems we have with SGM’s polity.
I am hopeful for you, my brother.
I can be hopeful for SGM too, but only when they become honest about, and correct their dishonest polity.
I had my anxieties about my Easter church visit. I expected to be afraid, but was surprised not to encounter that ole’ monster as I stepped into the high school where the church was meeting (full circle!). All my worries were as nothing compared to God’s faithfulness. He had changed me. I wasn’t the same person that left PDI nearly 14 years ago. I’ll bet you and your wife have a similar experience. It is liberating indeed! I wanna pray for you both when the time comes, okay?
Last Sunday one of our elders came to our Christian Education (“Sunday School”) class to answer questions anyone had regarding changes that weere being made. Clear communication, clear answers and a very clear statement that the elders recognized the primary responsibility of the Pastor is caring for the congregation. They want to ensure he is freed from administrative responsibilites so he can care for the church by preaching, hospital visitation, teaching, – basically spending time with people. What a difference! I am in a church of about 600 members and have a pastor who is accessible as compared to my SGM church where there were about 75 members (including many kids) and the pastor was virtually unavailable. If you approached him about getting together you would receive a response that he has some time in a month and a half. He could have been meeting daily with the church, encouraging them and discipling them, but was always busy not meeting with people.
Canary, yes absolutely. Pray that we will walk with discernment and openness, free to embrace the TRUTH in a corporate setting. We are thankful for renewed anticipation.
30, I’m continually amazed that your experience is across the board so radically different from what I’ve personally seen, and what I’ve heard from hundreds of people.
Jim,
Now you know how I feel, and why I occasionally post, when I read these outrageous claims made about all of SGM.
Did hundreds of people confess to you that they participated in “pastor worship”?
…and just to think you were in the elite group all along, being His son, adopted into His family. He is welcoming, approachable, and never too busy or preoccupied. Amazing Love, how can it be?
30 years, there are some things you just know. Like I just know that Abba is alive and loves me. Not everyone agrees; I just know. When I look at the trees outside, I know who is behind the new fresh green growth for another season. I watch the rain fall and just know that my Father is taking care of the cycles of life. When I look deeply into a baby’s eye, I see the Master behind that brand new life. Everyone doesn’t agree–I just know.
When people clamor over their pastor, and seek an audience with him and go on and on and applaud them almost to rock star status–you just know. When they protect the leadership blindly when they are dead wrong. When they will believe NOTHING is wrong with SGM when there is objective evidence to the contrary, I just kind of know. Know what I mean 30 years? By the way, shouldn’t it be 31 years now?
30,
Re: “pastor worship”.
The system is set up such that you have to make a conscious decision to NOT give inappropriate, almost gushing, honor, such that it is practically worship of the pastor.
Let me give an example:
It was back in the mid-late 90′s at FCC (Fairfax) and it happened to be that a high ranking member of the Virginia Home school Association was also a member of FCC. The annual home school convention was usually held down in Richmond, but this one years convention was held at FCC. So convenient for the Northern Virginia people.
I had one of those “Ah Ha” moments when during the time of the convention or shortly thereafter, I was listening to the radio show “The Bible Answer Man,” and a caller called in to ask if PDI were a cult. Why ask? This caller had attended the convention in it’s new venue, and was taken back by the continuous and nearly identical comments from members of FCC about Benny, the senior pastor. This woman was not used to hearing people in a church put their pastor on such a “high pedestal.” (Her words “high pedestal.”)
I remembering cringing at that comment because I knew it was true. I had seen it also, but chose to ignore it, and at the most, I would “question the motives in a person’s heart” for how they practically worshiped Benny. (To use the SGM vernacular.)
I did not at that time think that PDI were a cult, but was disappointed that people would act in such a way to let others think that.
So, 30, it goes way back.
AND, you can’t possibly count the hundreds of people who participated, in all the PDI/SGM churches, around the world, over the years.
They don’t necessarily have to “Confess” it, for it to have been “observed”.
That’s my 2 cents….
30 Years
If you look at how Mahaney teaches the passage in Hebrews 13 that the people setting up the blog quote and who basically “parrott” what Mahaney teaches sets up the group for pastor worship.
Mahaney either never took the time or doesn’t want to know what the real meaning of the passage in Greek actually means. It is more of a be convinced by the leaders vs. the blindly obey that SGM teaches.
Thanks again for another response to my questions. As a quick observation, It doesn’t seem to me that what you believe about yourself, sin, grace and freedom etc. are defined in such a way in your heart and mind that you are able to speak (write) with great conviction but I leave that with you and the Lord.
I will say this though – you have no real understanding why you sin but you do have reasons why you sin. Until you understand the why you will never be free despite your testimony. I think my words sounds harsh but that is not my heart or the spirit in which I say them!!
Perhaps we can talk some day so that I can catch your spirit and heart.
30 years is a long time with any group and I totally understand your loyalty. It is difficult for me to believe that you haven’t seen the things that ‘real’ people share on this site but there you go!! Methinks that what you don’t see is more or less intentional but in your heart of hearts you know!!
30 years: I did, in SGM, and actively attempted to draw friends into the superiority of tactics, techniques and lifestyles of an SGM pastor.
I never did outside of it, either before or after.
I believe you. But do believe us when the sum of our experiences mean that the vast majority of pastor-laypeople relations in SGM do not seem to be what you describe as a “average man to average man” experience at all.
I see lots of sin, error, unkindness, at CLC. We are Christian saints who sin. But I also see an overwhelming abundance of good fruit here. 31 years worth.
I have seen folks who are overly enthusiastic, zealous, excited when they talk of their pastors. But worship? Maybe in an isolated moment here and there? For some, perhaps an on-going thing?
I have explained in great detail how I relate to my pastors. I love them, I am grateful for what they do, hundreds have been blessed by them, but I don’t worship them. Suppose there are hundreds at CLC like me, who know in their hearts that they do not worship their pastors? How could you know? The folks I know do not worship their pastors. We worship Jesus.
You say I’m blind, I say you are assuming, without any evidence, that pastor worship exists among the majority of SGM. You are pointing fingers at a group of brothers and sisters in Christ and telling 9,000 people that we worship these men. I honestly do not see how you know what is in the hearts of the folks at SGM in order to make such a serious claim.
You know, I feel at times like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I post here. I’m sorry you had bad experiences at your former SGM church. Your experience was completely opposite of mine. I come on here to bring a different perspective in order to provide perhaps a little understanding, or some reconcilliation, and because I care about you. I really am here to help in some way.
About 25 years ago, I was apart of the worship band. The standard dress for those on the stage was suit and tie. For some reason, I decided one Sunday to wear a nice sweater instead of a sport coat. A couple days later, I recieved a 2-page letter from a pastor explaining the error of my ways. I was shocked. Oh my God, what have I done! The next time i saw him, I appologized for breaking dress code and explained that I was not intentionally rebelling. He accepted my appology and all was forgiven.
I shared this with the kids recently and we laughed hysterically.
But what was that? Some controlling pastor with too much time on his hands? What kind of crazy place is this? It was a nice sweater. Well, I know the pastor and I know what was in his heart, what his intent was. He was simply doing what he believed the Lord was leading him to do at the time. And he was doing it with excellence and completeness. He was doing his part to maintain a particular standard of excellence. He was doing all to glorify God.
Since then, there has been growth, maturity, and changes in the way things are done. But the goal remains unchanged – to glorify God in all we do. (and if you wore a suit on stage today, you would look a little conspicuous).
Blind? No. Believe the best? Yes. I do not ignore reality. I deal with it head-on by God’s grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Oh my goodness. 2 pages because of a sweater, but it’s cool, because he thought that he was being led by God. After all, he was a pastor, and they have a special relationship with God, hearing from Him on behalf of His Bride.
Their relationship is no more special than mine. Yes, it is cool, because I believe he was doing what God wanted him to do. He is a Christian, called to provide some leadership, embracing that calling and making decisions that affect the entire church.
It was a very simple rule. A standard. And he was using his God-given authority to enforce that standard. They wanted to honor God in that way. Not to earn anything or impress anyone, but to honor God. And I broke the rule. I could wear that sweater anytime I want, except at that time.
30, God did not give your pastors they authority they continually claim. That is the primary error in sgm. Their authority comes from man, not God. They took it for themselves, and impose it upon the flock.
The Sweater Issue: The suit/tie thing policy wasn’t about honoring God — it was about impressing PEOPLE. Our SGM church had a similar policy: If a man was to be “up front” on stage, preaching, worship team, etc — he was expected to wear a shirt and tie. And it was explained that the reason was because we looked so “different” in so many other ways (meeting in a school, no hymns, no Sunday School, and I might add, no elders nor deacons…) that “we” wanted to at least LOOK respectble as people.
Somewhere along the way, the rule got changed. Good thing they didn’t originally say it was because they were “honoring God” with shirts and ties — otherwise, taking them off would be “dishonoring God.” Sheesh.
Uh, 30 (31),
Re: your comment April 22nd, 2010 at 6:42 am
“You know, I feel at times like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I post here. I’m sorry you had bad experiences at your former SGM church. Your experience was completely opposite of mine. I come on here to bring a different perspective in order to provide perhaps a little understanding, or some reconcilliation, and because I care about you. I really am here to help in some way.”
EXCUSE ME?!?!
You are like the ignorant idiot who approaches someone who is in deep depression and pain and says “Cheer up!”I’m having a great day! Whoo Hoo! Look at me! I’m Happy!”
When you post idiotic $hi…….Crap …. like that I want to scream.
Just how do expect to bring reconciliation? Do you have access to SS? (Watch that dagger he wields.) When you approach him about the heresy he proclaimed in defense of SGM, (If you do,) prepare to join our ranks with the other wounded.
Many of us had similar “good” experiences to yours, until…..we didn’t. In many cases, by no fault of our own by the way.
We will forgive you for your incredible ignorance, (Hell, I forgive you now, but I’m still gonna give you a whipping for it.)
How’s your tail??
With tough love,
-De(friggin)fender
(I’m going cat hunting for a while….)
30 – I did have to chuckle at your first line — “I see lots of sin, error, unkindness, at CLC. We are Christian saints who sin” — there is no question you would see lots of sin, error and unkindness — it is what you have been trained to do. But trust me it is not a laughing matter.
I totally get your 30 years have been so good because you are so pliable and have such a desire to please you will obey whatever. One of the best sellers in PDI for years was “Spiritual Authority” by Watchman Nee – I think it was required reading at some point. One of the “principles” taught by Nee was this “The degree in which you submit to your spiritual authority is the degree in which you are submitted to God” (my paraphrase).
a 2 page letter, about a sweater
because a man made rule was broken
a man of god does not make
but a defender of the poor,the widow ,
the downtrodden,the deplored
can be trusted to lead you to the shepherds gate
You mean I get to be the first person to comment on this? I’ll try to make it good!
The meeting was pretty encouraging though it didn’t answer every question or satisfy my every concern. Only time will tell what the fruit will be, but the bud is somewhat promising, as one dear lady said afterwards. I took 10 pages of notes, which I will look over more closely a little later. Here is a brief summary.
Danny, Benny, and Mike each got up and confessed their sin — generally selfishness, pride, laziness, neglect, self-pity, failure to resolve conflicts Biblically, etc. Bob Kauflin presented the assessment team’s findings and recommendations. In the Q & A, Mickey Connelly and Jim Britt also responded to some of the questions.
These are their intentions: Danny is going to spend even more time at Metro Life and less traveling aroud the region. Since Danny will be around more taking an active leadership role locally, the executive pastor position is being eliminated and Benny will focus on other ministries. He has pledged to learn to be more warm and approachable, especially in counseling. They are going to figure out how to be better at followup, especially with counseling, answering phone calls, e-mail. They also plan to learn how to administrate better. They are going to work on relationships within the pastoral team. They are going to train home group leaders better. They are going to evaluate the sports, womens, and evangelism ministries. They want to listen better and not brush off observations like they’ve been doing for years. On polity issues, they are talking about deacons. In the Q & a afterwards, several members brought up the idea of a lay elder board or at least advisory boards, like the one they had for finances a while back.
Many questions were raised during Q & A, some frustration, some encouragement, some folks saying they are willing to give it a chance and stick with it, others saying they might end up leaving if it turns out to be empty promises. I haven’t yet had the time to process my own feelings about this, but I am willing to wait and see and try to be part of the solution. I like these guys, even if they’ve messed up some. I think good things can happen. I hope they will.
MetroStill
I have no comment.
I just needed to submit a comment in order to sign up to be notified of updates to this thread.
Thanks for sharing, MetroStill.
Since nobody else has added anything substantial yet (though thanks for the brief encouragement, Metro Lurker), I’ll add a few more thoughts…
I would hope that the comments on this thread, even if they are somewhat disgruntled or pointed, would ultimately honor Jesus, our precious Creator and Redeemer, whose death and resurrection we are commemorating this weekend. Maundy Thursday is when he celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples. On the same evening, in his high priestly prayer in John 17, he interceded: “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word [THAT'S US!], that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.”
The world is watching to see if we who love his universal church will respond in love and peace regarding this local one. This is such a crucial situation for the future of SGM. As goes Metro Life, so goes Florida and the rest of Danny’s region. And that in turn sets the precedence for all of the churches around the country and other parts of the world. If Metro can get it right in God’s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, what an ripple effect that will be! Metro Life can become a model for turnaround and real growth that others will follow. Who says that change has to come from the top down? Why not let the grassroots local churches find what works and let it spread as it will.
Time for prayer, brothers and sisters!
MetroStill,
Thank you for the update, and for your encouraging second comment.
I’m encouraged that there was a Q & A. I’d really be interested in the response to the elder question, as Metro is already full of deacons, both male and female.
Metrostill,
That is encouraging and you are wise to give yourself time to process it all.
I believe we owe a lot to the blog moderators for keeping this stuff out there AND for caring for the wounded at the same time.
Blessings ~
MetroStill,
Thanks for the update. It is a hopeful sign. I don’t remember pastors ever standing up to confess their wrongs before the congregation in the old pdi days. I really, really pray that change is on its way. God is so good to His people! I also hope that the board of elders idea gets a thoughtful thinking over by the leaders.
Praying for the saints at Metro Life…
I am cautiously optimistic as well on this.
There seems to be a big build up to something…some sort of SGM announcement or whatnot. I can appreciate them wanting to have the right timing on this, but if in fact something is going to happen, sooner rather than later would be much preferred by those of us who know others that really need some hope at this point for lasting change.
On this Maundy Thursday I am praying for my beloved Sovereign Grace Ministries.
–jw
Thanks, Metro Still.
Curious….remember what the Assessment team’s findings were?
Oh I pray these people – the leaders God put in place – would love Jesus and be motivated out of his precious love for his people. And lead with that love.
PK- good to see you here!
There will be changes, as it’s “here to stay”, but we both know that the root of the bitter fruit is an unbiblical view of authority.
It’s hard to imagine a world where Harvey writes a statement that contradicts what CJ currently teaches.
Walking in the Spirit doesn’t come from trying harder in the flesh. “Without me you can do nothing.”
The assessment team’s findings and recommendations will flow from hearts that find power in the resurrected Christ or will flow from men trying to rescue an organization from where their livelihood comes from. One flows from the Spirit; the other flows from the flesh.
I too am cautiously optimistic.
Jim stated above, “There will be changes, as it’s “here to stay”, but we both know that the root of the bitter fruit is an unbiblical view of authority.” This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. Any changes will be temporary and superficial. If you only cut off the top part of a weed but don’t dig up and get rid of the root, the part of the weed that was above ground may be gone but we all know that the weed will grow back. Same thing with SGM. Grassroot, local church leaders may change things that are outwardly seen but if the root (unbiblical view of authority, polity, distorted doctrines, etc) has not changed, in time the bad fruit will be visible once again. Yes things may look differently on the outside, but without cutting off and changing the “unbiblical view of authority” no real, lasting change can occur.
If all of the confessing at Metro is sincere, why are they not discussing elder boards? As Jim mentioned, they already have lots of deacons!! Until we see real changes in the polity, real changes in attitudes about the leadership, real changes in their hearts toward the sheep, etc., etc., then I will continue to question their motivation. Actually, I will continue to question until such time as good fruit has been established and proven!
This morning I woke up thinking about the situation at the church I have been a part of for more than two decades. I believe that the root of the problem is something much more simple than “polity, unbiblical view of authority…” etc. At the risk of offending everyone by taking it out of the realm of spiritual loftiness and bringing things into the focus of reality, I’d like to suggest what my observations have led me to believe is at the root of the problem. Perhaps it stems from some of these other issues which have been named, but the problem at Metro is the same one that has existed for years. Here’s my take:
The leadership team at Metro (and some at SGM) behave as if they are a bonafide bunch of celebrities. The members of the church have been far too willing to treat them as such, adding to the leaders’ assumed invincibility and position hovering above reproach and beyond questioning. Whereas one might think that a person with a calling to pastorhood would have a heart to serve their people in ways which involve “getting their hands dirty” so to speak; in two decades at this church, I have observed that kind of leadership on rare occasions. In fact, that type of servanthood has been more aptly demonstrated by the administrator as opposed to the pastors, though he appears to be resistent to input from the lowly membership as well often enough. It has been the church body serving the leaders, not the other way around.
Many people whom I love and respect have poured their very lives into serving this church by sacrificially giving of their time, their resources and their God-given giftings. And it was expected of everyone. I know of one family with four children who deliberated and prayed over buying groceries or giving more to the church. The people of this body love their leaders and have supported them with their hearts and souls for years. They have revered them and held them in such high regard as to willingly offer up priceless resources to honor and bless the leadership.
At the same time, this leadership has continued “guarding their family time” by receiving the material blessings poured out on them by the Metro faithful. These things came in the form of the use of vacation homes at deep discounts; free or seriously discounted medical care and treatment; automobile donations, etc. My problem is not that people wanted to bless the leadership with these things, it is just that it seems to have sparked an entitlement mentality on their part. The unwavering loyalty of these many people just fed into the pastors’ comfort level and perceived invincibility. When it came time for the pastors to make sacrifices, we began to see the cracks in their character and evidence of arrogance and pride showing through.
How many pastors’ retreats have they treated themselves to? How many marriage retreats have the leaders and their wives taken at the expense of the congregation? Now compare that to the amount of effort they have placed into genuine follow through and care extended to those whose marriages were in real crisis situations. When Jeremy Jones’ sin and utterly disgraceful behavior was exposed, the leadership team practically dropped everything to serve Jeremy, his wife, her family, Danny Jones’ family, etc. All of the resources of the leadership were laser focused on helping those families survive a crisis brought on by the selfish, sinful and irresponsible behavior of our senior pastor’s son and the neglectful oversight of the leadership team toward him during his time as a pastor-in-training.
No one would want to deprive those who directly suffered as a result of that horrendous situation the counseling and care they needed to get through, but I know from personal experience that the same treatment is not extended to the average member of the congregation. Sluggish response times to desperate pleas for help from wives, husbands, parents on behalf of their children characterize this leadership’s care for the flock at large. If your crisis doesn’t fit into the schedule, please take a number and wait for a call that may, or most likely may not, ever come from your pastor.
Instead, the leadership relied on the overtaxed and non-paid homegroup leaders to follow up with the congregation and their various woes and difficulties. While this is a solution to serving such a large body in some respects, the homegroup leaders are just church members like everyone else. They are not trained biblical counselors or pastors. We can assume that our pastors have genuinely been trained in caring for their congregation specifically in times of personal crisis, can’t we? Why were they so willing to dump the responsibility of follow through onto these lay leaders?
Please, don’t try to tell me that they faithfully met with people and made the effort to help them through their difficulties. I’ve been here too long and I know the truth. Don’t ever make the mistake of calling on a Monday or interrupting someone’s vacation, or birthday celebration, or whatever other retreat or conference they might be called away to. It’s no wonder they were never able to meet the vast amount of needs of this body…they were not available to the extent that they should have been.
Much needs to change at Metro Life Church. The change needs to start at the top. It’s time for the leaders to be responsible in their care toward this body of believers. They need to be accountable. There needs to be transparency and evaluation. Each of us who work in the world outside of this ministry are evaluated based on work performance and the effect of this type of evaluation is increased productivity. We love our pastors and have demonstrated our desire to support them in the ministry God has called them to. This should not be viewed as an adversarial process, but one geared toward reconciliation and restoration of good will. Just saying “I’m sorry, please forgive me,” does not fix the problem. It’s time to do the work.
I am not picking a fight Fred, but I have to sorta kinda maybe disagree with your statement.
Fred: “Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible.”
Christ: And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” – Matthew 19:26 NASB (emphasis mine)
I don’t place any type of hope of change in any of these men (I used to)…but I do place that hope solidly and solely in Christ. The evidence I have seen of change for the positive has always come from Christ, no matter how many glad-handing episodes and societies of mutual admiration I’ve seen pop up. God is also the One Who cuts out and demolishes bad roots. And His cutting out of bad roots also operates on timetables we cannot control. We can insist on change in the meantime (with just cause from scripture), but God is ultimately the One in control of all things.
(This si not a Bible lesson for you Fred; it’s more of a prayer for me; Ditto on everything else you said!)
–jw
It’s true, you can’t fix or reform something that’s corrupt from the top down. Their unbiblical view of themselves is at the very root of the problem. They have perverted the meaning of authority by maintaining a man-inspired gap between church and leadership. This is not found anywhere in the New Testament. The current mainstream American church leader believes he is the voice of God for the people. The Moses Syndrome. And the result is the “average” person’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ is paralyzed. We cannot grow spiritually in this atmosphere. It’s like blocking sunlight and water from a dying plant. Men, not knowing Christ in His Fullness, having good intentions (some of them) nonetheless have given themselves over to a deceptive religious spirit. The enemy doesn’t want us to know who we are in Christ, and these men obsessed with ambition, ego and greed make it easy for the devil to accomplish this.
Everywhere I look, men are building God’s church in their name. They live by “works”. With all the programs, doctrine’s, theology’s, church polities and good deeds that seek to capture our attention, there is no life apart from Christ. He is all we need. Religion seeks to separate us from Him.
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life ; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life”. John 5: 39-40
I predict the following participles to be used re. the meeting:
“encouraging”, “convicting”, “spirit-moved”, grace-filled”
2Decades-
I agree with every word you’ve written.
To the uninitiated who might think, “oh my, that was harsh”, believe me…
2Decades’ accurate assessment is a merciful summary.
Well said, Wallace. I think the sort of leaven you speak of is within so many churches in America. John 5:39-40 is how the leaven can be purged from the Body (1 Cor. 5:6-7, Gal. 5:9, Matt. 16:6).
2 Decades,
I agree. The base of the whole philospophy and structure of SGM is pride.
2Decades,
Can’t add anything to your post except AMEN!!!
Jim:
On a light side note, I do believe your “So Metro” post with the year’s most loaded question as its body copy is probably the shortest post with the biggest intrigue ever.
Once again, what takes me three pages to say, you can in three words.
Love ya,
–jw
2 Decades – You hit the nail right smack on the head. I’m wondering, did you notice when this “celebrity-like” status stuff started, or was it there all along but not to such a prominent degree?
Perks, the “celebrity-like” status of pastors and their families has been noticeable at CLC at least since I started there in 1986, if not before.
2 Decades, well put! I experienced all of that at CLC in the plus 2 decades I spent there. I was shocked at my new denominational church that the pastor (Rector) treated me as just another person, answered my call on Monday and could meet the same week, and even more evidences that there wasn’t a wall between us.
2Decades, thank you for your comments and observations. I too think the home group leaders need a whole lot more training than they have received, and I say this from observation. I can think of several awkward (at best) and hurtful situations in home groups over the years that could have been handled much more compassionately and prudently with a little extra training in group dynamics, family crisis, etc.
But then again, I think the pastors need more training in counseling, too, as deficiences in this area have been a major grievance. If you think about it, their entire “formal” theological training is 9 months of pastor’s college, and counseling is just one small part of that. I know they read some about counseling from the CCEF folks, but that isn’t the same as formal classroom training, and that perspective is pretty confined anyway. Perhaps a few classes at RTS (only 10 miles from Metro) would broaden their horizons and equip them to be more effective in the logistics of administrating a counseling program with proper scheduling and followup. IMHO, pastors need to learn how to help the emotionally & spiritually wounded find true and lasting healing beyond their outward behavior, without sending them out feeling like whupped puppies and depraved worms whose only problem is sinful pride and bitterness (not my personal experience, but a common complaint I’ve heard).
On the polity issue, I did not agree with the gentleman during the Q & A who discounted the idea of an elder board because the average church member is not specially anointed for that calling and therefore has nothing to offer in the area of leadership. Again, this is a symptom of the celebrity model of ministry, not the “priesthood of every believer” model. I am glad that Mickey Conn0lly reminded everyone it is not an either-or dichotomy between ”imperial” or “congregational” rule. I do think that the pastors should be able to make decisions efficiently and work as a team without being overly hindered by bureaucracy and congregational politicking every time they want to move on something. However, they could at least call together several advisory boards, perhaps similar to the one they had for finances. These areas would be top on my list: counseling, women’s ministry, youth, evangelism, sports, and home groups. Each advisory board could be comprised of people who feel called to that ministry because of gifting, experience, or current personal involvement in that ministry. It would need to be more than pastor-picked people, but include those who are not on staff and not already on the existing core team of folks in that ministry. (I am particularly thinking of the women’s ministry here in terms of broadening perspective. We could use more women over the age of 60, more single women, more moms who aren’t home schooling, more women who aren’t from a longtime SGM background or related to pastors, etc.) If too many people wanted to serve in one group, perhaps the congregation could vote on who they wanted on it. They could meet somewhat regularly, and have an e-mail address or contact person where other people in the body can send their concerns or questions that could be discussed and addressed by the group. Then the advisory board could meet with the pastors to share their findings — basically an internal assessment team — and practically carry out some of the logistics so it won’t completely fall on the pastors.
For example, Jesse has openly acknowledged on multiple occasions that so many of the youth are really struggling spiritually, and my own children have confirmed this from their observations. What’s going on? So a group of experienced parents could come alongside Jesse, share their wisdom and their observations, and recommend some strategies. Since Jesse doesn’t yet have teens of his own, this advisory board should be mentoring him just as much as he is trying to mentor them through the parent meetings.
I’ve spent more time on this than I had planned today. I hope it will help someone.
MetroStill
2decadeshere has made a good point, though I am not quite sure that is the basic problem. But it is a problem.
I knew of a situation in our area where a pastor’s wife shared that someone in the congregation had just lost their almost full term baby. The outpouring of love to the pastors family was amazing. Other women posted that they were praying for the pastor’s wife and volunteered to take her a meal and take care of her children so she could minister to the lady who lost her baby. Now I think this would be fine if it was an addition to people wanting to meet the need of the the lady who lost the child. But no, all the posts were about helping the pastor’s family. There is a major screw loose.
MetroStill,
I’m not sure where Mickey got the idea that it is not either/or between imperial/congregational rule.
Metro is ruled by Danny, Benny, Mike, and Chip, with Danny being the “first among equals”.
4 men out of how many members? Plus, we have no idea what the behind the scenes dynamics are. Does Mike’s voice carry the same weight as Danny’s?
4 (or less) out of hundreds looks really imperial to me.
A high profile, much loved pastor had to leave to effect the status quo, assuming it will be effected.
Many others have left, changing nothing, because they were mere mortals (non pastors).
I have no model to sell (well, I do, but I won’t), but MLC’s model in almost every area bears no resemblance to the NT Church.
Jim, I think Mickey was saying it shouldn’t be “imperial” — which it is now — but that it doesn’t have to be pure democracy (majority rule vote for the whole congregation on everything) either. There can be a happy medium, such as an elder board or the advisory groups. In this case, there MUST be a happy medium, because the congregation isn’t going to settle for anything less, based on the number of key long-term members who stood up during Q & A insisting on it. As Danny even acknowledged, we are free to “vote with our feet” every Sunday, as many have already done.
MetroStill
Metro Still,
You said, “Jesse has openly acknowledged on multiple occasions that so many of the youth are really struggling spiritually.”
Although I am not at MLC, I have seen this at CLC in the past. There, some teens were going to extremes with sinful, addictive, or self-destructive behavior. From my own personal experience, the way to reach them is for me to build a friendship where I actually earn their trust. I do NOT earn their trust if I promote an environment that forces outward conformity and involves spying and tattling. That can result in hiding, dishonesty, and even blackmail. I do earn their trust when I repeatedly listen to them, keep their failings confidential, pray for and with them, serve them, and most importantly, talk to them about my own relationship with Jesus, pointing to Him as the only way.
A happy medium would make me…. happy
2Decades,
Once upon a time, we were some of those undertrained and overtaxed home group leaders. I could give personal substantiating examples of nearly every point you made. And I can substantiate that these attitudes were formed long, long ago, though I don’t doubt they are more developed now. Metro’s entrance into PDI changed the heart of the church drastically.
I sincerely hope the recent leadership repentence represents true godly sorrow and an understanding of the havoc their “sin” has caused to the saints of God.
God could be on the move here. The beloved pastor’s departure could have forced some of these issues to light. But I can’t help think that the blogs and the forced transparency they have brought may also have played a role here. Like many of you, I will choose to be cautiously optimistic.
Thanks, Jim and Carole. This blog is probably not the ministry you would have chosen for yourselves, but we are glad you’re here.
Wallace – “Men, not knowing Christ in His Fullness, having good intentions (some of them) nonetheless have given themselves over to a deceptive religious spirit. The enemy doesn’t want us to know who we are in Christ, and these men obsessed with ambition, ego and greed make it easy for the devil to accomplish this.”
AMEN! Jesus is our Sovereign Lord! He alone is to be worshipped and praised!
@Metrostill: SGM adheres to a model of counseling not taught at RTS. The dislike is mutual. You need to keep in mind that the perspective of many who think they have found THE “biblical” way of counseling is pretty narrow, too.
Well……………………..EYE have a bit of a different tact. I went with an open heart. I had told a dear friend in the church the ONLY way anything would change would be outright repentance of the leadership team. There was a bunch of groundwork laid. It was blah blah blah. Then Danny gets up and all I could think was WOW, he is back! Danny doesn’t look like a sick beaten down worm. His repentance was genuine, detailed, and emotional. At this point I am in tears and I am crying THANK YOU GOD! I am saying I AM STAYING I AM ENCOURAGED AND YES YES YES!!!!!!!We have break through! He is getting it.
Then the downward spiral begins. Benny comes up and I am ready for the same type of detail. Basically he is reporting a very short statement. Benny comes up and says I am gruff, arrogant, and I have already come to a bunch of you, if I offended you let me know. And by the way, I know this is short but does not reflect my lack of repentance. It took less than 2 minutes and POOF done. Now the “Executive pastors < Benny’s> position is eliminated so he can become more effective telling people that everything they come with is full of sin OH sorry , I mean able to be more effective in areas of ministry where his gifting can be better used. THIS IS THE LAST GUY you want directing you in ministry. He is also the guy who had more to repent for from my perspective than anyone else on the team. After confessing in August that he was going to be more open when people approached him I can tell you from my personal experience in meetings I had with him post August that there was never any change in his approach. Arrogant, lacking humility, unapproachable, and everything I brought was full of sin. QUESTION we all need to ask. How am I to believe now all of a sudden with his minimal 2 minute admission of failing that is any different than what he said back in August of 09 ? I am- according to them- trust this lack of transparency? Worse yet, does Benny still not see how he has personally wounded this body and created “yes” people around him?
Mike Nash then gets up. His repentance is again lengthy, heartfelt, detailed. Knowing Mike he is confessing things that were far from lazy. After Todd left he was now strapped with an already heavy counseling load and now Todd’s load as well. Lazy is not in Mike’s vocabulary. I know he spends hours off the clock on his own time and at the expense of his wife trying to help people see God in the midst of their struggles. I know there were people he could not be affective with because he was so overwhelmed. The only thing Mike needs to confess is that there were not enough hours in the day to handle what was thrown at him and that he gladly bore. Mike need to go to school, get his degree in Biblical Counseling and do it full time.
Now they open the floor for questions. About every other comment is asking why we do not have an in house board of elders, advisory board, etc. Bob K seemed to get a bit flustered. Mickey C gave it the old college try and Jim Britt handled it head on but with no real answer other than that’s the way we do it, we need to trust God not the model. Danny says it is time we teach on ever changing polity. Trust God, yes I do, but folks God gave us a brain. We are supposed to study and hear from God.
The result for me? As much as I want to take these guys at their word, I do not have the faith to be burned again. If they had removed Benny for sensitivity training- maybe. With no oversight other than themselves, and the no model is perfect motto, I am afraid MLC may self destruct. The advisory team is leaving 3 leaders with no oversight to work out their repentance and with no accountability other than themselves. Again they are telling people, if you do not have faith to stay be free to go. That works for MLC> It leaves only the “loyal bobbleheads”. What chance of anyone confronting their confessed sin then? I was hopefully. I walked out discouraged and hurt.
Metro Life’s family meeting was going to be my last hope of salvaging 15 plus years with a movement that I had grown to love. I went hoping there would be something different, but came away disappointed that there really were no changes and my hopes were crushed. Excellent question from a long time, respected, member wondering how “ 3 alcoholics could hold each other accountable” was met with the usual “Sovereign Grace doesn’t trust an unpaid Elder board to give over sight to the Pastoral staff”
One 30 year throw back to the early PDI days commented “I wouldn’t want a “knucklehead” like me to give oversight to the pastoral team. No one was asking for “knuckleheads”, we were just asking for guidelines for Elders in scripture to be followed. He said “we were all just 20 year old trying to do something different than the orthodox models. Well. Knucklehead, here we are 30 years later with countless examples of heavy handed church leaders, with no accountability stomping on members that disagree with their royal decrees.
Want to see how great that is going to work? When Pastor Benny’s son becomes an Elder, he will be there to hold daddy accountable –That is comforting. NOT! Here is a church that openly admits to using the wealth of experience and knowledge from senior members for important decisions, but they are too proud to allow a “non- paid” member to oversee their progress. So, like said member‘s analogy, the 3 alcoholics will be left to watch over each other. Meanwhile the 3 team “advisory board” (found in the book of Hezekiah, under “church governments”) will fly the 1,000 plus miles back to their home churches while those that are closest to the situation are given NO VOICE. The alcoholics “sponsors” are now just a 1,000 mile phone call away.
It was also opened up for questions, which was wonderful, UNTIL, the rah rah cheerleading began “Thank you Danny, we love you, we respect you yada yada yada.” Why didn’t one of the 6 men on stage stand up and say “please allow questions from those with concerns and save the kudos for an email later?” Many with valid questions I left, in disgust, because the clock was ticking and there wasn’t enough time to address concerns, with all the back slapping and high fiving over the repentance.
Don’t get me wrong, I felt that Danny was sincere, but true leadership would have asked the faithful to hold back and allow some tough questions. I was waiting for a question about what to do with all of our Larry Tomzcak and Brent D paraphernalia. Is it to be tossed in the circular file, labeled “un-Biblical? And, what happens to all the music written by Todd? Do we remove that from circulation? (Watch your P’s and Q’s Bob K, and Steve Cook, because if you don’t tote the party line your music is history.) Is that a Biblical model? If someone disagrees or falls into sin, their past is erased (Glad God didn’t tear up the book of Psalms after David did the nasty with Bathsheba) and it is as if they never existed. That’s what cults do to those that leave. That’s one scary precedent.
There was a small mention of “basketball” (Metro’s little god) being examined. Heck – it is the reason that so many young men are excluded from fellowship, because they don’t bounce balls with the best of them, and worship has taken a back seat to the antics of “Christians” getting technical fouls game after game, by refs that stare in disbelief at the un-Christlike behavior of supposed Christians playing for “fellowship.” It’s time to retire the bouncing ball and teach young men “How would Jesus play – HWJP?”
Not much has been said about Benny’s one minute “I’m a worm, and full of pride” half hearted “apology” for stomping on the “little people” that came in over the last year with concerns. Real easy to say “Hey, I have pride, and I’m a sinner.’ Whole lot harder to actually believe it is heartfelt. Ask anyone from Denver that sat under Keith, Benny’s protégé, as he destroyed the lives of countless couples using Benny’s very same “you have pride and can’t question me” tactics.
There was a cheer throughout the congregation when it was announced that there would be Deacons added. Maybe we will see Elders eventually, but I am moving on to a church that follows the 2nd Timothy model. Having been told, way back when that Larry, C.J. and Brent were giving oversight to the East coast churches gave us comfort that our leadership would be under an “Apostolic Microscope.” Then they suddenly disappear and now who is giving oversight? Dave Harvey? The same Dave Harvey that didn’t listen to Todd for a year, screaming for help? That “Dave Harvey”? There are too many rule changes that will pop up to keep “God’s elect” from facing true accountability from other men that see them day to day. Am I alone in my decision after 15 years to move on? No, at last count, 30+ families, counting 4 homegroup leaders have split. So sad to see pride get in the way of real change, but, heck what do I know, I’m Full O Pride.
Again they are telling people, if you do not have faith to stay be free to go.
This was said to us in the Charlotte church in the late 90′s. Maybe it is standard for sgm to give those who are not like thinkers the old heave-ho. It certainly is an easy way to solve their problems.
I believe the Bible is clear that the saints should be ministering to one another in love, by the Holy Spirit. If the saints were freed up to use their gifts for the edification of the whole Body, then four pastors wouldn’t be overworked trying to accomplish the impossible. From what my husband and I saw before we left pdi/sgm, the Holy Spirit didn’t seem welcome. Control by a few men was the way of things, which meant that many saints were overlooked and left behind. Training is good, but the Holy Spirit moving in the Lord’s people is better. That was the NT way.
Full O’ Pride,
I can relate to what you observed, especially this…
“It was also opened up for questions, which was wonderful, UNTIL, the rah rah cheerleading began “Thank you Danny, we love you, we respect you yada yada yada.” Why didn’t one of the 6 men on stage stand up and say “please allow questions from those with concerns and save the kudos for an email later?” Many with valid questions I left, in disgust, because the clock was ticking and there wasn’t enough time to address concerns, with all the back slapping and high fiving over the repentance.”
The “cheerleading” is nauseating, ESPECIALLY in a situation where repentance and the asking for forgiveness should be taking place.
The same goes on at the little SG church in our neck of the woods.
It’s similar to the scenes you see in the news coverage when politicians and celebrities publicly confess a wrong – “backslapping” by the supporters.
Full O Pride, I am so sorry for the outcome and your disappointment. I pray for Holy Spirit’s comfort to be poured out on you and and that the love of God will saturate your heart, mind and soul. As you remember the resurrection this weekend and that Jesus is truly alive, sitting at the right hand of the Father this very minute, may you be encouraged and your heart lifted up. The outcome of the meeting is so disappointing but sadly predictable. I am thankful that you and the other families are moving on. That is really all that can be done at this point. You said it right “That’s what cults do to those that leave. “ Many of those who have left our former SGM church absolutely, without a doubt believe that SGM is a cult. It becomes clearer and clearer the longer you are out! It takes awhile but I do believe that God in His mercy will heal everyone of us. Will we ever be the same? No, but hopefully, we will walk closer with Him and will be wiser and more discerning in the future!
I’m just catching up on my reading here.
Re: 2 Decades April 2nd post;
I agree that it is from the top down. As I read your post, I was reliving another night mare I had a few years ago. A very similar situation to my experience with SGM; it was in the workplace, working for a company that had become a subsidiary of a very large defense contractor who’s name starts with “B”, and ends with “OEING.”
The heavy handed control from the parent company over the subsidiary is in practice much like the handling of SGM local churches by the SGM mega organization lead by CJ.
(In my specific experience, B OEING decided to re-set salaries. I knew I was toast at that moment, because I was hired and salary set years before, due to my specific knowledge that the department needed. The parent company stated that existing knowledge was not needed any longer. They wanted people trained up as they wanted, (to do as told) and did not want anybody thinking they knew anything B OEING did not provide, (or make any decisions outside of specific instructions. (My independent knowledge was no longer welcome.) After a similar kangaroo court experience to my previous SGM kangaroo court, I was terminated from my employment.)
I would expect that if a local church tried to change it’s polity too far from the “parent” model, there would be leverage from CJ through his “oversight teams” to bring said local church back into the fold, so to speak. Any “Pastor” who sought to use knowledge not approved by “big daddy SGM,” would be terminated (De-gifted.)
The change would have to come (or be allowed) from the top down. Or would there have to be an exodus of whole churches from SGM?
What we do not know is, how strong are the strings to local churches attached?
What legal bindings does SGM have over Metro?
Does SGM have legal ownership of Metro’s buildings?
(Here’s the big one.)
Does SGM have control over Metro Pastor’s salaries?
For true freedom, there has to be true liberty.
So, if Metro were to do something apart from SGM Polity, like allow the congregation to elect elders and deacons, would SGM (Parent company) allow that?
Could they prevent that from being implemented?
Remember, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon. (Mammon = wealth, power.)
Will SGM allow their power to be degraded by the common people?
I’m just asking…..
Protestant Knight, Good to “see” you again on the Refuge. Of course I agree with what you said and I believe that with God all things are possible. I too place my hope in Christ and Christ alone. Also, I believe that it is God who digs up and cuts off these roots. Matthew 15:13 states, ”But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.” I really do believe what I stated above. “This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. ” My hope is that the churches will withdraw from SGM.
When we look at other groups who are “off”, we are confronted with questions and mystery. Why are they still in operation? Why has God allowed them to stand? I don’t know but I do know that God gives us truth and we are responsible for appropriating that truth in our lives. When our eyes are open to error, abuse, corruption, etc. we are to blow the trumpet and sound the alarm. The trumpet has been blown, the alarm has been sounded and many have been warned.
I am so thankful to God that He opened our eyes and that we have been delivered! I thank God regularly for this act of mercy and kindness to me as well as to others who have left. We are in a body now where the focus is not on our sin but on our Savior! We are free to worship the Living Jesus Christ, to trust Holy Spirit in us, to hear and learn more of the Father’s love for us and to be reminded that we are precious to Him. We are not worms! We are His sons and daughters and Jesus calls us His friend.
Bravo to Defender: This post is worth rereading!
“The change would have to come (or be allowed) from the top down. Or would there have to be an exodus of whole churches from SGM?
What we do not know is, how strong are the strings to local churches attached?
What legal bindings does SGM have over Metro?
Does SGM have legal ownership of Metro’s buildings?
(Here’s the big one.)
Does SGM have control over Metro Pastor’s salaries?
For true freedom, there has to be true liberty.
So, if Metro were to do something apart from SGM Polity, like allow the congregation to elect elders and deacons, would SGM (Parent company) allow that?
Could they prevent that from being implemented?
Remember, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon. (Mammon = wealth, power.)
Will SGM allow their power to be degraded by the common people?”
Hey all,
Really interested in the Metro updates – Metro is a church I am so fond of and pray for loads, and would love to visit one day when the budget allows!
But I was interested in some of the early comments about “celeb-status” of the pastors. I suspect that this MUST be something that is imparted at Pastors College because this was one of the first things that shocked and disgusted me when I joined Grace Church, Bristol in England.
Pre-joining: Senior Pastor travels 100 miles up the country to come visit me where I was living and gave me the “VIP” treatment. I was taken out for lunch and he even brought me a commentary.
Post-joining (a small church plant of approx 20 people): I foolishly thought that the gestures of friendship that the Senior Pastor had given me would continue. Particularly as it was a small church plant and not many people to care for! But I found that a number of my texts or phone calls were rebuffed with a phrase; “I’m too busy …”.
When the church was officially recognised at Celebration UK 2002 and given “status” by the great “apostle” Harvey – we all got together as a church to celebrate, but the only person missing was the Senior Pastor. He apparantly was upstairs with apostles Harvey, Mahaney et al having “special” treatment.
Celeb-status?! Oh yup – but it’s not just the big churches that do it. The funny thing is that in big churches celeb-status can sort of “work” (no matter how wrong it is). Pastors can bustle in with their suitcases looking important and “busy”. In small church plants, they tend to look … well silly.
Hi Dan,
Nice to hear from you. I have been wondering how things are going. Were you able to attend the baby dedication? Have you and your pastor met with the SGM “apostley person”? Im referrring to your posts in February under Prayer and Praise.
Blessings, Greg
All, catching up on reading…..
Canary— Wondering how your Resurrection Sunday was—I was praying for you—just to know the affiirming love of the Father and the wonder of knowing you are seated WITH Christ Jesus because He has risen,indeed!
For all those Metro contributors— thankyou for your reports — bringing personal testimonial perspective of the meetings.
I remain…cautious only …because fruit takes time…..and Jesus said “you will know them by their fruit”.
‘Full O Pride’ (but I would to rename you ‘Seeker of Gods Truth’),
You stated there were requests for guidelines for Elders according to the scriptures.
And the response from one 30 year PDI member was ” I wouldn’t want a knucklehead like me to give oversight to the pastoral team.”….and “we were all just 20 year olds trying to do something different than the orthodox models.” — I would to believe that as young men their hearts drive was to serve God and live and build together for Jesus Christ.
———What I would say to these leaders is—- Do you SEE what has transpired??
Along with preaching Biblical truths there has manifested man-made principles and laws resulting in the many many Brethren who have been (and are) controlled,wounded, misguided,maligned,slandered, by the sgm PASTORS and APOSTLES—The pattern is clearly reported in: Fairfax-Noels Story; Chespeake Story/Esther; Gilbert AZ; Metro FL; and reports from San Diego and (both)Denvers.
Mahaney, Harvey, Shank, Purswell, Emerson etc have taken NO personal responsibility or public confessions for the implodings in these churches and the trail of mauled Christians.
Why, I wonder??? I can only conclude its because they do not see the poison running through the “something different than the orthodox model” family of churches. Until these men renounce and dig up the Pharisitical roots they have created and propogated, sgm will continue to reproduce itself… there will continue to be Brethren ensnared in the web of control; pastors offering their apologies and asking forgiveness and promising to do better when church implosions occur;….and the poison of sgmmahaneymonarchy becoming insidious as it filters into the hearts of the sgm members— As ‘Full’ stated:
“Here we are 30 years later with countless examples of heavyhanded church leaders with no accountability stomping on members that disagree with their royal decrees.”
May God continue to shake the foundations,leaders, and walls of the family of churches known as “Sovereign Grace Ministries”………and deliver the people into walking as the Redeemed of the Lord. Fully and completely Redeemed.
Waters, Thank you!
“May God continue to shake the foundations,leaders, and walls of the family of churches known as “Sovereign Grace Ministries”………and deliver the people into walking as the Redeemed of the Lord. Fully and completely Redeemed.”
AMEN!!
Eye robot,
Out of curiosity, how long did my dad’s confession need to be to be sincere? What’s the criteria? Did he need to be more specific? Give details? Cry? Thanks.
I was curious about how the change in leadership structure would be reflected on Metro’s web site. They took off the descriptions of the individual pastors, replacing that format with the text I have pasted in below from http://www.metrolife.org/lt.html. I am curious to know when was this written — and by whom?
“The local leadership of Metro Life Church is composed of spiritually gifted men who, by the grace of God, have been trained and mentored through years of experience to oversee the life and mission of this fellowship. Those raised up to serve in this capacity have been recognized locally by the “fruit of their labor,” the church itself, and extra-locally by the Sovereign Grace Ministries apostolic team. They have demonstrated the proven character, spiritual maturity, calling, commission and anointing that qualifies them for leadership. These men consider it a deep and humbling privilege to lay down their lives in service to this church. Their desire is that every member might come to maturity in Christ and bear lasting fruit for God. It is their passion that every believer be fully equipped for the work of service that they are called to, fulfilling their destiny in Him in order that they might stand before God and hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
Janelle, more detail would have better reflected the depth of his own understanding of the offenses and his sorrow for the grief he caused to so many. Though this affected many individuals, and he should apologize to each of them personally as well, it was also a sin against the whole body and the honor of God. His words, even with the disclaimer, seemed a bit perfunctory even to someone who personally likes him and wants to see him thrive in ministry.
Janelle, from having known your dad years ago, he was struggling then with the same issues he confessed to at the family meeting the other night. When will there be real change? Maybe you can understand why some would question his sincerity, since the areas of weakness he acknowledged have been the cause of hurting many saints over the years. Not very pastor-like.
I can understand, though, your need to defend your dad. Very commendable. This whole situation must be very hard for you to watch. Please know that most of us here only wish the best for Metro Life, and for your family. Try to understand that Eye Robot and others have reasons to feel a little skeptical since they have been on the receiving end of leadership abuse in one form or another. That should not be happening in God’s Body. We want to see an end to it in SGM. If Metro Life leaders are sincere, there will be good fruit growing in the near future. We all pray that this will happen.
Janelle,
I will not answer this, I will let CJ and John Piper answer for me.
1 Timothy 4:16 which reads: “Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.” He taught that, through God-appointed means, the preservation of a pastor and his congregation is at stake in his obedience to this verse. Faithful, pastoral ministry could not be more important and the implications could not be more important, for they are eternal. “ C.J. Chapter 6 ”The Pastor’s Priorities: Watch Your Life and Doctrine.” RECOMMENED READING FOR BENNY
“The proportion of public repentance should be in proportion to the publicity of a sin or a sin’s effect.”John Piper May 2008
In short Janelle…..less than two minutes does not even come close.
OH..Metro Still…I would assume Dave Harvey. Oh the Polity is for ever changin……………but still not for the good,yet.
That repentance involves more than mere “sorrow” for the wrong act, however, is beyond dispute. It likewise entails a resolve to CEASE the wrongful conduct, replacing it with godly living.” Wayne Jackson
My question…did not the arrogance, pride and inapproachability just get confessed in August of 2009?
Obviously a bad confession or an unrepentant one if we are back here again in April. Same stuff different day. Or year, or years.
“The Greek verb that is translated “repent” is
metanoeo.Literally, it means “after thought.” It suggests the idea of thinking about a deed after the commission of it. In the case of a sinful action, the idea would be a retrospection of the act, and a subsequent feeling of sorrow for having committed the sin.Again I quote”“The proportion of public repentance should be in proportion to the publicity of a sin or a sin’s effect.”John Piper May 2008
Canary,
I certainly agree that leadership abuse should not happen. I guess our definition of what that is would be our point of disagreement. I’ve never known a leader to publically repent and ask for whomever wished to come up and address their sin one on one with them like the way dad, Danny and Mike did at the meeting. True, I may have a “biased” opinion, but I think I have a much closer look at the way my dad lives his life than anyone else on here. He’s flawed, proud, and arrogant. So am I. What takes so long for him to change? Well…what takes so long for ANY of us to change?
Eye Robot,
Perhaps you can clarify for me how exactly that verse ties in to sincere repentance of sins. Isn’t that what we were talking about? It might be helpful to remember that a person’s sincerity is not measurable by the amount of time spent repenting. I’m glad God doesn’t time my prayers, but reads my heart. Otherwise I’d be in some serious trouble. I’d also love to talk to you about these things face to face since I’m assuming I know you and you have gone to Metro or are there now. Maybe that would help in clarifying for me what you mean. Recommended reading for all of us: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9
Janelle,
I mean no disrespect to you in any way. The fact is, you have been raised in a bubble.
God saved me 28 years ago. Only seven of those years were in SGM.
The fact that you’ve never seen a pastor publicly repent before this is a very sad thing, and indicative of the issues we discuss here.
Trust me, you have no idea how peculiar SGM is.
Janelle,
While it is undoubtedly true that there is no apology however specific, lengthy and sincere that your dad could make that would satisfy some people, it is also true that a sincere apology should be specific. SG people and pastors have mastered the art of talking while saying precisely nothing and alluding to things instead of just saying them straight out. I’m sure the people of MLC would appreciate a little plain speaking for a change.
I’ve experienced that at my church – “I’m sorry that I previously took a hard line on such-and-such. If you still have a problem with it, come talk to me.” I guess this is progress of a sort, but not terribly convincing. They need to do better.
And Jim is right that you have been raised in a bubble.
I’d gone through so much other stuff
That walking down the aisle was tough
But now I know it’s not enough
I want to be a clone
I asked the Lord into my heart
They said that was the way to start
But now you’ve got to play the part
I want to be a clone
Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone
They told me that I’d fall away
Unless I followed what they say
Who needs the Bible anyway?
I want to be a clone
Their language it was new to me
But Christianese got through to me
Now I can speak it fluently
I want to be a clone
Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone
Send in the clones
Ah, I kind of wanted to tell my friends and people about it, you know?
What?
You’re still a babe
You have to grow
Give it twenty years or so
‘Cause if you want to be one of his
Got to act like one of us
Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
Cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I’m grateful that they show the way
‘Cause I could never know the way
To serve him on my own
I want to be a clone
So now I see the whole design
My church is an assembly line
The parts are there, I’m feeling fine
I want to be a clone
I’ve learned enough to stay afloat
But not so much I rock the boat
I’m glad they shoved it down my throat
I want to be a clone
Everybody must get cloned
Here is the above song on on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtusbAxrAdA
Eye Robot said:
“My question…did not the arrogance, pride and inapproachability just get confessed in August of 2009?
Obviously a bad confession or an unrepentant one if we are back here again in April. Same stuff different day. Or year, or years.”
If this true and it is becoming like a “broken record” then it shows why there is a need for the leadership at these local SGM Churches to have some form of accountability such as to a group of local lay elders.
If a board like this existed and a problem such as this was identified and the group held this pastor accountable for changing then maybe change would actually occur vs. a pattern continue to repeat.
Just a side note. It seems that most agree that elder boards would be part of the solution to this control and manipulation by the pastors and apostles. However, even if elder boards are implemented, based on past history, these boards would most likely be made up of those in the inner circles who are most definitely “yes” men.
Jim,
None taken. I didn’t say however that I’ve never heard a public confession before. Just that I’ve never heard one like that, with three pastors repenting one after the other. Danny regularly confesses his sin, either through preaching or through family meetings. My dad does as well. I understand that SGM has been my only experience and it would appear I live in a bubble…but I’m there because I want to be. I know that people will say its because my dad is a pastor, which certainly has something to do with it, but at the same time I love my church not because my dad is in leadership but because I am a part of Metro…It’s MY church. As one person said that night, “I am Metro Life Church.”
The Missus,
You speak truth. Repentance should be specific. How specific? Do the pastors need to start calling out people and repenting to them publically? “Joe Smith, forgive me for the time…” We’d be there all day. The fact of the matter is that there are constraints for public repentance. It’s not as personal as we all would like…yet some people here have called for it, and now aren’t satisfied when it actually does happen. That’s exactly why each pastor in turn spoke of a desire to repent face to face to those who feel need it. People can say that it wasn’t genuine, to which I would say try it out and see what happens. Prove them wrong not by coming on a blog and complaining about it but by going to their face and talking with them.
Metro Still,
If you’re curious about the change on the website I’d suggest asking someone on staff about it. I’m pretty sure no one here knows the answer, including myself. Email one of them, or talk to one of them, just as they asked that we do.
Missus wrote “SG people and pastors have mastered the art of talking while saying precisely nothing and alluding to things instead of just saying them straight out.” Brilliant! And so sadly true.
Fred, great, true, and sad comment about the flaws of SG (and other) elder boards.
Keep it up, people!
Former SG Pastor
I hope the participants will bear with me and be open to some balancing comments. I can see merits in both sides of this discussion with Janelle.
1) The situation at Metro is current and active, so folks who are local to Metro and have had some personal involvement should probably bring their concerns about the meeting, conduct of the leadership, the website, or whatever to the leadership before voicing it here. This is part of what Janelle is trying to say, and I think she has a point.
2) Part of the discussion is about the difference between public statements and repentance resulting in change. I can say (with many others here) that getting an apology from leadership for clearly sinful acts was an extremely difficult and costly process, but it unfortunately did nothing to change my situation or the fundamental leadership behaviour that caused the damage in the first place. When apologies do not result in change, people question the sincerity of public statements and understandably become skeptical – thus the comments by Eye Robot, MetroStill, Steve240, and others.
3) Janelle, this may be painful to hear, but I hope it will help you in the long term. The way that SGM leadership applies the doctrine of “Total Depravity” is quite unusual and dysfunctional. It is a two edged sword that leaders use to cut down criticism by both accusing those they have hurt and rationalizing their own sin. That doctrine does not remove our responsibility to repent specifically and change permanently. I’m not trying to pick on you or split hairs. It’s just that nearly every poster who has defended SGM on this blog has at one time or another responded to specific problems by saying “we all sin”. Personally, I question whether that doctrine is an appropriate focus for us as new creations in Christ.
4) I will probably draw fire from all sides for this, but I think this blog is better suited to healing past hurts than discussing current issues. When we have problems with a local church or leader, it is far more effective and loving to discuss it in person and exhaust that process before bringing it into the public domain on the Internet where all sorts of people like myself who do not know the details or have any business trying to bring about a godly resolution can add their comments to the fire. Having said that, there are many of us who have done everything possible to address problems in SGM in a biblical fashion to no avail and are still hurting years and even decades later. For the walking wounded of SGM, this is one of the few places people can safely be heard, understood, cared for, healed, and hopefully find the strength to move on. There are apparently many at Metro that are in the beginning stages of the process.
Greg,
The doctrine of total depravity speaks to our pre-salvation state. It is synonymous with total inability, meaning that those who are spiritually dead cannot of themselves exercise faith, as faith is a gift.
I would say that you’re referring to the doctrine of indwelling sin (Rms 7), which has been misused and overemphasized by some in SGM.
I wholeheartedly agree that the internet should be a last resort-the final step of Matt 18 (tell it to the church).
One should go to his/her brother first, take someone along if step one is ineffective, and then, after prayerful consideration, follow the final step of appeal towards repentance and “tell it to the church”.
The problem is that SGM pastors (and others) have taken Matt 18 from the church and called it their own. Everyone won’t understand what I mean by this, but that’s ok. Someone just please find “with pastoral approval” for me in Matt 18.
The obvious problem, and the reason this blog exists, is that so many have gone to their pastors and have had the tables turned on them, turning the focus of the conversation from pastoral failure into an examination of the heart of the one trying to bring correction to a pastor.
Regarding Metro and other situations I’m familiar with, I long for the day when these “men” will pony up because they are under conviction, before SGM Inc has to come to town to and rub their nose in their poop.
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification. I meant to refer to overemphasis on indwelling sin which is strangely used as a rationalization or defence ofleadership. It has become part of SGM speak, and is one of the oddest things I’ve noticed since I left. I also agree with your other comments, and I feel that good conflict resolution is something we need to remind eachother of anytime we are discussing a current conflict. Thanks.
I appreciate the freedom to talk about whatever I feel necessary on “these blogs”
The leadership can stand up and mask their “I’m sorry” publically, but will they ever make the connection of those they have hurt specifically and their godless actions. That goes for all who are in leadership at Metro and surronding churches.
Find them out. The bible calls me the remnants…the ones HE went after. And save your I’m sorries for the tears of the saints.
That was nice for the “review committee” or who ever the other celebrities were to come over to Metro, but what about the other churches that are rotting under their very nose. The damage is widespread, others have begged…we are under the care of Sovereign grace ministries…for help. Our cries have fallen on deaf ears…
And I think the message that B enny and Sh ir ee knows, you know the one that is one size fits all except if you are in leadership is witch craft.
Greg said:
“I will probably draw fire from all sides for this, but I think this blog is better suited to healing past hurts than discussing current issues. When we have problems with a local church or leader, it is far more effective and loving to discuss it in person and exhaust that process before bringing it into the public domain on the Internet where all sorts of people like myself who do not know the details or have any business trying to bring about a godly resolution can add their comments to the fire.”
The response that comes to mind on this is that it has been in my experience and what others have reported an environment in SGM where members can voice and discuss their concerns such as this one. If one raises an issue many times the person is quickly chastised for gossip or slander or considered rebellious to question leadership.
Perhaps if SGM tried to create a more open environment where one could openly state their concerns without fear of being called a gossip or some other name then issues like at this SGM Church could be better discussed locally.
Until that time, some type of forum like this is needed.
“Eye Robot,
“ I’d also love to talk to you about these things face to face since I’m assuming I know you and you have gone to Metro or are there now. Maybe that would help in clarifying for me what you mean. ”
Janelle,
I have taken up my issues repeated and intensely over the past year of 2009 with Benny, Danny and members of the Advisory Board. Since you are not part of the leadership team I fail to understand what getting together with you would solve. You have no pastoral or
apostolic authority. You have no ability to change the serious issues at MLC. I do not understand what you desire to achieve ..or your brothers… with dialogue here. Perhaps informing Jim B, Bob K, and Mickey M , as well as CJ of your bantering here would be a worthy email I may send in the morning. I was under the impression SGM frowns on this sort of thing by the children of those in leadership, and a few have been corrected for these activities in the past.
If the grown adult and married childrenof leadership do not want to become targets of responses, they should take their biased slanted views and keep them to themselves. Like your parents, your vision is very very narrow.
Hey Everybody,
Hope you all are doing well and enjoying God’s grace. Many of us are most likely sneezing and wiping the pollen off of our cars.
Jim – I have a question for you. I apologize…I not sure if I’ve met you in person, but I think I recognize you…you may also know who I am. You mentioned something in a comment above regarding the peculiarity of Sovereign Grace. Wanted to know what you meant by that. My understanding of the comment was with regards to a leader’s public repentance. One of the guys from the family meeting stood up and mentioned that had gone to a great number of different churches in the last year and a half, of all denominations and indicated that the “type” of process of evaluation and the outcome would be somewhat foreign to the various churches with whom he interacted. My family would have a history in the AG and “Holiness” movements/denominations. Though we have great respect for what God has done in using them in our lives…we wouldn’t necessarily expect a process like we’ve seen here. That’s just an example. But I wanted to know if you wouldn’t mind clarifying that for me.
Eye Robot – Hey there. I’m not sure if I know you…but I hope you are well! I know for my end…I have a hard time communicating over the computer. I hate that the computer doesn’t include inflection of voice.
I think that is what Janelle was wanting to do in meeting personally…not to single you out or bring any type of authority to bear…but to hear your voice and heart in the matter. To be honest…that’s what I wish we could all do.
This is why I jumped on without an alias….please come talk to me personally on Sunday. I’d hate to know that I have offended people and no one came to tell me about it.
I pray that God’s grace shines upon you all today as you live for His glory.
Eye Robot wrote “Perhaps informing Jim B, Bob K, and Mickey M , as well as CJ of your bantering here would be a worthy email I may send in the morning. I was under the impression SGM frowns on this sort of thing by the children of those in leadership, and a few have been corrected for these activities in the past. ”
Though I understand some of Eye Robot’s frustration, I’m saddened by this comment. Isn’t this the kind of threatening, controlling language from which we seek refuge? I’m sorry to see it here.
I have to agree with nickname. Though I too understand some of Eye Robot’s frustration (don’t we all?), his words to Janelle seemed threatening. Not good form. Janelle needs to feel free to voice her opinions just like the rest of us. I’m glad she has posted her thoughts.
Nick…
Not at all threatening…..just giving back this morning to what has been so freely given to me. SGM frowns on this blog, and those who participate in it. When I was a loyal SGM’er I was told so by those in leadership to my face. Just exposing a huge double standard. One of many practiced by those I loved, served and trusted because they were ” In the very stead of God” I will leave the subject alone here.
Hey David….
I have- after the last family meeting- along with others I am sure you will soon here about, have moved on. You are a great young man, tender in spirit and dearly loved as are many I have to leave behind. As I have said above, many including myself have gone to the team, left with much unanwsered, and found the publicly confessed responses by some in leadership being repetitive, in one pastor lacking detail or contriteness < and those sin patterns have been continual hear at Metro and at VB and although confessed, the fruit of repentance is not evident>. I was hopeful, but hope deferred is not a good place to be. I pray for MLC and SGM but there is only so much one can say when the responses have been zero, you are full of sin, or, bubye if you disagree and have a nice life. I have opted for the later. As Jim Britt said, it is going to take a long time. This “won’t happen overnight”. I would agree. There was no change from August to March and Todd had been at this much longer than I or those who are leaving or have left. I wish it was the way back in the day David. Those days are gone. God is doing a new thing. He is exposing sin. MLC is His church. It is time for me to step back after much prayer and allow other to do what must be done. Trust me when I tell you, what is happening is far from over. God is good and he will not allow His church to be a black mark. That give me hope for those Left Behind. Keep the faith David. I believe Danny sees and his heart is ripe for real change.
I have a question: What precipitated this event where these pastors portrayed a public show of repentance as a group?
Jim said: “There will be changes, as it’s “here to stay”, but we both know that the root of the bitter fruit is an unbiblical view of authority.””
Then Fred said: “This is why change from the grassroots, local churches is really impossible. Without cutting off this root of bitter fruit which must take place at the top, real change within the local churches is not possible. Any changes will be temporary and superficial.”
Amen! I see the wisdom in that.
With online sites like this one casting light in dark places, the leadership is undoubtedly growing concerned as more and more people begin to question what’s going on. Damage control is in order….
Not meaning to offend any loyal followers, but the description of the “leadership team” at Metro Life Church might best be accompanied by the audio sound of apes thumping their chests in the jungle. I don’t think I’ve ever read anything so vanity-ridden on a church site before.
“The local leadership of Metro Life Church is composed of spiritually gifted men who, by the grace of God, have been trained and mentored through years of experience to oversee the life and mission of this fellowship. Those raised up to serve in this capacity have been recognized locally by the “fruit of their labor,” the church itself, and extra-locally by the Sovereign Grace Ministries apostolic team. They have demonstrated the proven character, spiritual maturity, calling, commission and anointing that qualifies them for leadership.
These men consider it a deep and humbling privilege to lay down their lives in service to this church. Their desire is that every member might come to maturity in Christ and bear lasting fruit for God. It is their passion that every believer be fully equipped for the work of service that they are called to, fulfilling their destiny in Him in order that they might stand before God and hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.””
It reminds me of a passage in Matthew:
Matthew 6:16 “Moreover when you fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”
The only reward the pharisees would garner is the praise and honor of men.
May I ask what initiated this public donning of sackcloth by these pastors? And what is an “assessment team”, pray tell?
Eye robot,
Did you ask any questions of the assesment team at the family meeting so that the “family” could hear from your point of view? According to what is im sure a completely accurate count of people that have left, and the “cheers throughout the congregation” after calls for church reform/deacons, (i must have been at a different meeting), it seems that you would have had quite a number of “supporters” to your questions for the assesment team. Scott certainly had the courage and integrity to stand up and present his arguement. That is the point of a family meeting. If you have left Metro, for whatever reason, why did you feel you had the right to return to a members only family meeting? it would seem as though the only purpose would be to have something to complain and become bitter about. If you are still at Metro, then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names to vent your concerns? You seem to be, in conclusion, a coward at best, and full of pride at worst.
Todd is a great worship leader, a valued friend, an awesome pastor and shepherd.
He is not infallible.
One of the things he taught me was that when you have a family conflict in marriage, you both go humbly and seek to work it out. That is the only way it will work.
To break it down barney style for you-
What wont work is if the husband goes to seek biblical counsel and help, the wife goes, says nothing, nods her head politely, and then later chats to all her friends and his friends about how God-awful and full of sin her husband is. Regardless of whether she went to him at home, the point of bringing the whole family into the equation is that we are able to provide opportunity for equal growth. We call this accountability (biblical). If you simply desire to slander the “husband” in this scenario, no one is able to grow. Todd did not stay for the assessment team, and was not as Bob pointed out, assessed. Todd did not fail to then go and meet with 700 people, and discuss the shortcomings of the pastors.
So, if you have “divorced” yourself from the Metro family, you do not belong in counseling sessions at all. If you are still in the family, and your desire is for “reform”, then why hide in the back row at meetings, or behind a screen name? Are you afraid people will start anonymously slandering/gossiping/making you look like a complete moron who is completely full of pride? Like on a blog read by all your friends? I can certainly see how that would be unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately, quite unbiblical.
Jim,
You said Janelle lives in a bubble where she is unused to leadership repenting. If I may ask, what church do you belong to where the leadership team is constantly apologizing for things? It seems like that would get depressing really quickly, especially considering the apparent problem SGM has with looking at sin too much.
One more thing to be said.
Suppose we do live in a bubble. Suppose we dont see the festering sin surrounding us and the ones who lead us. Suppose that this “call to reform” blog is the real biblical truth. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And thats the funny thing, when you think of it. That the “bubble boys and girls” of Metro Life Church, can create a bubble that makes your gossiping, slandering, sad, miserable, sorry excuse for a “ministry” about as pointless as Nancy Pelosi’s halloween mask. Comparing the amount of lives that SGM has lead to and kept with Christ with the negative effect and waste of lives (including mine now) that this blog has had on the people of God is depressing. We all very well might be in a bubble where the leadership team doesnt listen to the complaints and opinions of the church as much as they should. But I would rather follow a Leadership team who listens to the Voice of God rather than the voice of some team of deacons. Which is why I am going to enjoy my bubble, and enjoy dragging as many people into my bubble on my way to heaven as I can, while you enjoy whatever it is you think youre doing down here.
Sincerely
Rob.
If you would like to talk to me face to face, Id be more than happy to talk to you, just contact me through the email.
Hi David,
We’ve probably met. I know who you are, and I’ve spoken with your dad a time or two.
I have no desire to defend the AG, but I spent 5 or 6 years there, with the Sr pastor now at Grace as my sr p, and the Sr pastor now in T’Ville as my oldest kid’s youth pastor. I was what they call a deacon, which was functionally a ruling elder. The sr p called me one day, told me I had been nominated, the congregation voted (I wanted a recount), and I was in. My understanding is that if we would have received multiple reports of pastoral abuse of authority, we could have given the pastor the boot. It would be interesting to see who would be left standing if Metro had such a system in place.
I think my “peculiar” statement was in reference to someone who has never known, from the inside, anything other than SGM. The gentleman who visited a number of churches in 18 months probably doesn’t qualify. It’s sort of a silly statement, really. I spent 2 years at an independent church, 7 years at a Calvary Chapel, 5 years at an AG, and 10 years at the T’Ville church, which was SGM for 6 years. I know them. I don’t know much about the many churches I’ve visited.
There is no way I can qualify my “peculiar” statement, as there are not enough hours in the day. You’ll have to read what’s been written. I’d start with the “polity” tab at the top of the page.
BTW, if I was not a fan of some of the peculiarities, this blog would not exist.
Rob or James…
That was special. I’ve never heard gossiping, slandering, sad, miserable, sorry excuse for a “ministry” before. Dogonit, I think I’ll shut this thing down right now.
My phone number is on the about page, if you ever want to back your online bravado up with a real conversation.
BTW, I understand your anger. I used to enjoy attempting to make SGM leaders angry, but I currently take no pleasure in making anyone angry. I was concerned that the “bubble” statement (although true) would possibly be offensive to the person I was writing to. The last person on the planet I would want to offend, outside of my family, would be a young lady publicly defending her father. I didn’t consider that others would be offended as well.
I was trying to find a way for her generation to understand that SGM is a minuscule part of The Body. It would serve everyone in any type of insulated group to discover how gathered believers have governed themselves for 2000 years.
Christ has His church and it is healthy and thriving. It’s not contained in a mere building or in a single denomination, but it is amply described in detail in His Word the Bible. The called out believers are the church.
It is challenging for people in dysfunctional churches with cult-like aspects to have freedom within the body of believers to share concerns. If the pastors are too haughty to listen and show people respect, then people become frustrated. In unhealthy groups people don’t feel they can talk to anyone at all. Many pray hard about concerns.
Those mustering the faith in God and the courage to leave the group are helped if they share their experiences with others. It helps in the healing. Boards like this go a long way toward helping people heal.
I imagine that some here are praying for the people in “leadership” and especially for their children. These children need our prayers.
My musings on the peculiarities of SGM… PDI/SGM strives to be counter cultural, IMO. Years ago, at PDI’s very beginnings, American Christianity was encountering the feminism, sexual revolution, etc of the 60′s and 70′s. In an effort to counter this cultural decline, standards were set up for the members to follow.
I’ll give you a few examples. I remember when I was in high school (in FL in the late 70s), there was a lot of expectation on girls my age to go on to college and be “successful” by having a career. If your goal was to be a stay at home mom, then you were stupid and backward. When this type of feminism reared its ugly head in the churches, it was necessary for PDI to come up with “right doctrine” to counter it. Men’s and women’s roles were strictly defined to combat the push for women to leave the home and find careers of their own.
When children began to be born to the young couples, parenting and education had to be addressed. Again, IMO, there was a serious effort to be counter cultural, to do things differently than the norm, according to “right doctrine.” Birth control was discouraged. Some of the parenting trends of the day, like the move toward “time out” rather than spanking were met with disapproval. In my neck of the woods back then, the school systems were requiring sex education for all ages, even very young children. In addition, there was much talk about humanism invading the schools and curriculum, making parents fear sending their children to public schools. Alternatives had to be developed and taught throughout the PDI world. Young PDI leaders wrote books about these topics and gave seminars so we would all be “on the same page.” Guidelines on these many topics were presented as the right way, the Biblical way to do things. There was much social pressure to comply.
Years went by and the children grew up. The leaders were faced with the next challenge – dating. Again, counter cultural was the motivation, I believe. We were kicked out of PDI long before our children got to marriagable age, but I have seen the courting doctrine in my sister’s family, who stayed in SGM for years after we left.
Maybe the sin-focus that SGM is now famous for (or infamous for) developed as a counter cultural response to the whole “I’m okay, you’re okay” relativism of these last few decades?
What’s wrong with all that? What’s wrong with seeing the need to do things differently than “the world”? Nothing! Except that they took things too far. They went beyond Scriptural principles and Truths at times and set up mandates that were not outlined in God’s Word. Some things became rigid and legalistic. Over the years, these mandates have evolved into a whole set of peculiarities in some of SGM’s language, worship, teachings, lifestyles, etc.
Add to that the peculiar view they hold of leadership roles and it can be a recipe for disaster in the lives of many dear saints. In my view, they are dreadfully out of balance, leaning way too heavily on the pastors’ authority and not nearly enough on respect for the priesthood of every believer. Too much talk about the giftedness and anointing of the leaders and not nearly enough recognition and development of the gifts and anointing in the Body as a whole. WAY too much concern over “obeying” your pastor and being a joy to him and not nearly enough concern over creating strong, independent, mature church members who can go OUT and minister more effectively in their worlds than any of the pastors could ever do. WAY too much sin-gazing and not nearly enough saint-building.
PDI/SGM has shown a willingness to back off on some of their adamant “right doctrine” stances, but not the polity one yet. Even the apostle of the Chesapeake church, when repenting of their gross errors there, made sure the polity pamplet was available to all. Metro’s rewritten leadership blurb on their blog still contains strong language in regard to the authority and peculiar giftedness of the leaders.
So, that’s my take on the peculiarities of SGM. For what it’s worth. I can attest that, after only three years as a member, it took quite a while to decompress, heal, and rid myself of the error we encountered in our time there. I truly cannot imagine if SGM is one’s entire life’s Christian experience. I don’t mean to be cruel in saying this. I simply cannot imagine what it would be like.
Hope I’m not too far off topic with all this…
Gracie, perhaps being counter-cultural (having a schtick) works well for getting a church started, but then it becomes obvious that only so many people will buy in. Over time church growth can slow down. Did this happen with SGM?
At that point it may become necessary to welcome all popular viewpoints because that can attract greater numbers of people and the infrastructure needs the financial support.
With respect for your views, I personally do not believe that the majority of individuals adhering to the values you described did it for counter-cultural purposes. I believe most of them did it because they really felt called by God to get back to what was commonly esteemed for thousands of years. Rearing children and home schooling them is hard work. I doubt that most who do that are doing it to send others a message; rather, they do it because of deep conviction.
I understand that parents favoring public schools can feel uncomfortable in churches where most families home school. All I can say is that most home school families across America attend churches where most families have children in public schools, so they understand that discomfort. They have large families and some are asked if they know where babies come from.
My point is that pressure comes from both sides and often without meaning any harm.
“James Ballard, who signs his name “ROB” and says “then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names”. Am I missing something here bro? You have a moniker James Ballard and then sign your name Rob? OK , that makes sense. < not>
Dear James/Rob /whoever you are:
Let me try this point by point seeing reading the above posting accurately may not be your forte.
You said“Did you ask any questions of the assessment team at the family meeting so that the “family” could hear from your point of view?”
Answer: Attempt made, was never handed the mic but I certainly did amen after Scott, Peggy,Kim,and John brought up the same point. Scott more strongly. Who is going to hold the three self confessed sinners, who are our leadership team accountable? Why do we not have Elders? Many emails have also been sent to both MLC and the board of inquiry about the same thing. Many at MLC do not feel safe with what has happened and want more over site. People who were on the fence are leaving based on the fact the answer seems to be No, not happening. Rob, have you gone on the CLC website? Have you noticed anything done by Dave Harvey < serveral books> on Polity are gone? It is because it is all rewritten and because is it all changing. I thought God’s word didn’t change? Danny will be teaching from the new improved version soon. While you are at it, try to find ANYTHING written or on MP3 by Brent D. You know the guy that used to be on the “A” team? He was removed, so anything he said is gone as well. Bet in a few months anything written by Todd will be removed as well.
You said “If you have left Metro, for whatever reason, why did you feel you had the right to return to a members only family meeting?”
Answer. I went to the meeting as a member. THAT IS WHY I HAD THE “RIGHT”. < I have to ask, are you ROB the Pompous? >My decision to leave was made as the result of that meeting. Something you would not have stated had you thoroughly read my statement above to David G. I have emailed, spoken, spoken out, written to Danny on numerous occasions during this season and before it all hit the fan, gotten together with Benny, Danny,as well as communicated with the advisory team. I am no chicken, no wall flower, and short of nailing the 99 Theses to the front door or hiring a plane with a banner on the back, my issues with the lack of integrity and levels of sin and manipulation at MLC have been well stated. OH FYI , there were quite a few people at the family meeting who have already left, but came at the insistence of members of the advisory team in the hopes these folks would reconsider. See Rob, it’s called the Family of God for a reason!
You Said “If you are still at Metro, then why do you choose to hide behind close doors and screen names to vent your concerns? You seem to be, in conclusion, a coward at best, and full of pride at worst”
ANSWER see above , I did not hide. Far from a coward and come on now Rob, as Benny will tell you , anything we speak, breath or write is full of pride! You have been taught well! I am so glad God calls us by a different tag, because of His Son. That was one of the biggest reasons it was time to go. I am ready to live like Jesus rose from the dead, instead of living like a worm, a sinner, and full of pride. Time to live and serve a Resurrected Saviour! Navel gazing gets really old after decades. ROB-Break open your bible, if you dare and read all Paul’s letters to the churches. They all begin “To the saints of………..” Even the worst churches. Do you see “To the sinners of Corinth?” Think about that.
You Said “Todd did not stay for the assessment team, and was not as Bob pointed out, assessed. Todd did not fail to then go and meet with 700 people, and discuss the shortcomings of the pastors….Todd is a great worship leader, a valued friend, an awesome pastor and shepherd”
Answer If you had asked Todd, who you say was a valued friend detailed questions about what happened you would not even be able to type a word of this tripe here. Todd saw what the “assessment team” looked like in another SGM church fall out. He was not going to put his family though that. Todd and his family left because they needed time to heal. You know NOTHING about what happened. You are Rob, are a pompus fool. Todd had no problem sharing with people the real deal of what happened. He told anyone who directly asked intelligent questions, because he would not lie. He told the guys he would not volunteer details but would not lie if asked direct questions. The amount of hurt that was caused to Todd and his family was INEXCUSEABLE! You AGAIN know nothing. If you did you would have been along side of other demanding elders and a double check system so this never happens to anyone on the leadership team or the church again. You obviously were not as close to Todd and Michelle as you thought.
YOU SAID “One of the things he taught me was that when you have a family conflict in marriage, you both go humbly and seek to work it out. That is the only way it will work.”
ANSWER And yes, that was what Todd did with SGM/Dave H, Wayne Brooks, and with our team for over a year. Result? he resigned. DOES THAT NOT SPEAK TO YOU AT ALL? Rob, loyalty is only an admirable trait in allegiance to God. Blind loyalty is horrifically sinful. It places man above God. It’s called IDOLATRY! That is what you are doing. There is a huge difference between thinking the best and turning a blind eye to sin, especially in leadership.
You Said “So, if you have “divorced” yourself from the Metro family, you do not belong in counseling sessions at all.”
Statement: I am assuming you are talking about the family meeting here
So I would say…REALLY? Sounds a bit cult like. So Rob, are you saying if you leave Metro you leave the cult? No one talks to you again, you are not welcome? How dare you enter the doors? Kind of like the JW’s? Can I check with Danny on that statement? Bet cha not! I have many relationships at MLC as well as other SGM churches. They are not going anywhere. There is this big guy, God we all serve. MLC is not an idol to any of them nor is SGM. Serve God Rob, not man. It’s His church, not a country club with exclusive membership as you seem to believe by your statements.
YOU SAID “then why hide in the back row at meetings, or behind a screen name? Are you afraid people will start anonymously slandering/gossiping/making you look like a complete moron who is completely full of pride? Like on a blog read by all your friends? I can certainly see how that would be unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately, quite unbiblical. ”
ANSWER OH MY, Their is that pride word again. Rob, did this get thrown out at you so much it is all you know to say? Possibly projecting? Coward in the back row? Not at this meeting, not at the one in August, not on any Sunday. Does that narrow it down for you? Back row is not my style. As for my relationships at MLC or those in SGM, my stance is no secret to them, blog or no blog, I have been quite vocal. The rest of this is just playground taunting, and name calling, not worthy of a response.
Rob, when people defend what they love they can be protective and say things that are mean,defensive, hurtful and arrogant. When people have been hurt, manipulated, lied to etc, they can say things in response to what has happened to them. Because your marriage was challenged I am sure your protectiveness is in response to all that was poured into you. Many couples at MLC overlooked things that should have been addresses because of the great debt we feel we own to those who would not still be married today is it had not been for that care. Those were the good old days. It is time MLC and other SGM church members open their eye to what is happening. A Risen Victorious Saviour needs to be back on the throne in our churches. We all know we are sinners <DUH!>. But because of His Cross we are saints saved by grace. We are not worms. Get off your belly Rob and grow some legs!
SORRY last paragraph correction lost verbage..it’s late!
Many couples at MLC overlooked things that should have been addresses because of the great debt we feel we own to those who poured their lives into us. Many of us would not still be married today is it had not been for that care. Those were the good old days. It is time MLC and other SGM church members open their eye to what is happening. A Risen Victorious Saviour needs to be back on the throne in our churches. We all know we are sinners <DUH!>. But because of His Cross we are saints saved by grace. We are not worms. Get off your belly Rob and grow some legs!
Hi Patricia and welcome. My rather long post above was aimed at answering a question posed to Jim by a second generation SGM young person. “What peculiarities do you see in SGM?” I answered as kindly as I could, including a bit of PDI background, as I see it, in hopes that those who have known nothing else could see why some of us would consider SGM peculiar.
All I can say in reply to you is that, in my day and in my sister’s day within this church movement, all popular viewpoints were NOT welcomed. The pressure was palpable to “hear” the Lord say, yes I am supposed to homeschool, or stay at home, or forbid dating, or whatever the current mandate coming from those standing “in the stead of God”. There was much pressure to conform and personal liberty was squelched.
On occasion, these mandates would change suddenly, often without explanation, and we were all told that constant change was here to stay. There was a real sense that the sheep needn’t worry ourselves with the whys or wherefores, just obey (don’t question) and be a joy to the pastor. Those who made waves were not appreciated.
So, were there folks who did what they did because of conviction of the Lord? Sure. But there may have been some motivations that were not as pure. I know for myself I had to repent of pride and fear, pride for feeling like we were just a bit better than all the ”other” Christians out there, and fear that if I didn’t follow the prescribed “right doctrine”, I would be on the outs with God (or with those standing in His stead).
My main point was that, even though the leadership’s motivation to recommend and teach some of these mandates may have started out with good intentions (to counter popular culture), that still does not make them true Biblical mandates and they should not be imposed on every believer.
As I said, SGM has shown a willingness to back off some of their stances, but the root one, the one that causes the problems to continue, IMO, remains. Polity. Ironically, the Biblical, New Testament mandate of the priesthood of every believer needs to be pushed as hard as some of these peripheral issues have been over the years. This would go a long way to bringing about freedom to the saints in SGM.
“Living in a bubble” – those were my exact thoughts as I read Janelle’s post that Jim responded to. If you are in SGM and you think you are not living in a bubble, you are mistaken. Jesus did not call us to live in a bubble. As my time away from SGM grows longer, I see more and more just how much we were in a bubble there. It was almost devastating to my family and we continue to see the negative effects on our children. Your life is consumed by SGM – it is very comfortable and safe, like living in Stepford. Take a chance, and go elsewhere and see what the real world is like. It will be frightening, but you will learn much…confront your fears and examine them. There are many cult-like aspects to SGM. Jim makes an excellent point above about what leaders would be staying in place if the body was made up of ruling elders (not elite pastors who rule themselves). There is a biblical model that is not being followed.
Gracie,
I think you bring up a critical point; PDI was started as a reaction against some of the cultural excesses in the late 70′s and early 80′s.
But what it did was respond by creating a culture of its own excesses.
Some of the points you raise in particular I will address; the push for women to eeeeekkkk, gasp! go to *college* and have a carrer. This was artfully contrasted to the traditional stay at home mother. As though the one just had to disrespect the other.
So what did PDI do? Made being a SAHM the only option degrading the option of having a career.
They totally overlooked balance. They also overlooked the fact that women will be mothers to small children for a mere fraction of their lives even if they’re radical like me and had a busload of children.
More later I just looked at the clock, darn!
If James Ballard is a pseudonym, how does it relate to this, if at all? Any world view?
From Wikipedia:
James Graham Ballard (15 November 1930 – 19 April 2009) was an English novelist, short story writer, and prominent member of the New Wave movement in science fiction. His best-known books are Crash (1973), adapted into a film by David Cronenberg, and the semi-autobiographical Empire of the Sun (1984), made into a film by Steven Spielberg, [1] based on Ballard’s boyhood in the International Settlement and internment by the Japanese Imperial Army during the Second World War. The literary distinctiveness of his work has given rise to the adjective “Ballardian,” defined by the Collins English Dictionary as “resembling or suggestive of the conditions described in J. G. Ballard’s novels and stories, especially dystopian modernity, bleak man-made landscapes and the psychological effects of technological, social or environmental developments.”
Gracie,
Excellent comments, and I agree with you totally. You, DB, and I are probably around the same age.
I saw the same mindset, an obsession with “countering culture,” in the homeschool community I was a part of. I enjoyed homeschooling, but the majority within the homeschool movement made me very uncomfortable. There was a DEFINITE air of superiority, the image that we (the homeschoolers) were better parents, wiser and more biblical. We received the same responses by Christian outsiders (and rightfully so) about “our” self-righteous arrogance in how we were raising our children that I read on the sites with reference to SGM’s “superior attitude.” Self-righteous arrogance affects everyone the same way.
I’m not bashing homeschooling, I WAS a homeschool parent. I’m just saying the same mindset was present. That was originally why I couldn’t bring myself to stick around the SG church in our neck of the woods (Gracie’s sister’s church), that “mindset” was SO intense. It permeated EVERYTHING they did, moreso than Jesus or the gospel – that was just used to beat folks over the head to bring them into submission to the idea that homeschooling, staying at home, courtship, etc. were the “wiser, more biblical” ways of doing things. Thus the phrase, “gospel-centered.” EVERYTHING became “gospel-centered”…the gospel-centered life.
So James/Rob,
Since you disparage those who “hide behind a screen name”, why not solve the mystery? The metro folks seem to have no idea who you are.
Not accusing you of anything-perhaps your first name is James (like mine) and you go by your middle name (which is also Robert). Not an uncommon practice.
Metro’s a big congregation, so maybe the metro folks haven’t met you. I just think, given the loving accusations you tossed around you might want to clarify.
I hear those of you sharing your experiences with mothering/homeschooling vs. career/public schooling. What I’m going to say in no way invalidates your personal experiences, but I’d like to know more about what specifically was (or is) happening at SG concerning this.
Do the pastors openly preach from the pulpit that being a stay-at-home mom and homeschooler is “the Biblical model” and does that offend?
Or did a large number of homeschool mothers make condescending comments to those with kids in public schools or to women working outside the home?
I can say that in my own experience, I have seen both pastors and parishioners put down home schoolers and women who stay at home.
So my point is that tensions run high on this issue on both sides of the camp. Let’s face it. We don’t live in a society that favorably views women who stay home. For many years women who choose to work inside their homes and who homeschool have been asked rude questions questioning their abilities (are you a certified teacher?) and also about socialization (how do you think your kid will ever be socialized if he’s not in a public school?).
I mean, when is the last time you picked up a magazine in a doctor’s office and found articles extolling moms who work at home?
If anything, I think the homeschool moms have been the brunt of more condescension from all corners. In my own experience the vast majority of homeschool mothers (and moms who stay home) say as little as possible about their choices because it only invites further disdain.
So are you saying that SGM pastors teach from the pulpit that all moms should stay home and they all should home school?
Patricia,
I’m a lousy blog host. Although belated, I’d like to welcome you to the blog and thank you for your participation here.
Re pastors/pulpit, I’m aware of quite a few SGM pastors who make a strong point of saying, “we are not a homeschooling church”, along with, “we are not a courtship church”.
In my family’s experience, our local SGM was very home school-friendly. It was nice not being looked at like we had two heads.
To my regret, as a home group leader I think I was far more hard core “if you send your kids to that school, you’re nuts” than my sr pastor was.
I don’t know about other SGM churches, but I think Metro Life has gone out of its way to not imply that home schooling is the only way. They rarely mention home schooling or stay-at-home mothering from the pulpit, and when they do it is always with a disclaimer that it isn’t the only way. We’ve got lots who don’t home school and lots of working moms. I don’t know what their take is on how people have made them feel. We do have plenty of wonderful support for home schooling, though, which is a big draw for those who do. I would say that is a big positive at Metro Life. In that regard, I am very appreciative of Benny Phillips in particular for his personal investment and heart for equipping home schooling families. It is certainly not the only way to educate kids, but it is a ministry and it is about discipleship, and it’s a wonderful way for a pastor to serve such a significant segment of his congregation.
The SG church in my neck of the woods is *WELL KNOWN* for it’s hardcore stance on homeschooling, staying at home, courtship, etc. It came from the pulpit, parishioners, care groups – EVERYWHERE. At one time you could still find online some of the legalistic outlines and literature that Brent D. used in his teachings of such.
I hear they’re trying to change their image, but it will take a LONG TIME to convince people.
They’ve made quite a name for themselves.
Patricia,
I agree…
“So my point is that tensions run high on this issue on both sides of the camp. Let’s face it. We don’t live in a society that favorably views women who stay home. For many years women who choose to work inside their homes and who homeschool have been asked rude questions questioning their abilities (are you a certified teacher?) and also about socialization (how do you think your kid will ever be socialized if he’s not in a public school?).”
If I had a quarter for every time I was asked those questions, I’d be a wealthy woman.
Patricia,
You also said something that was key…
“We don’t live in a society that favorably views women who stay home.”
SGM created it’s “own society,” where women who worked OUTSIDE of the home and had careers were viewed unfavorably.
Both sides are wrong.
I’d also like to add that this wasn’t that long ago.
The documents I’m referring to were still being used two and a half years ago.
I often wonder if the senior pastor has publically recanted, and actually said, “We were wrong when we were telling you all this.” It would be very beneficial for his congregation, as well as his church’s image.
I hope he has.
Kindred said: SGM created it’s “own society,” where women who worked OUTSIDE of the home and had careers were viewed unfavorably. Both sides are wrong.
Bingo.
You know, I was just thinking about my last comment.
When I unknowingly taught my children something that was incorrect, especially if it was something that I taught as a ”hardcore truth,” it took a LONG, LONG time to convince them otherwise and to correct it. It also, at times, shook their confidence in me.
SGM…you have your work cut out for you. I understand your dilemma, but you still have to do the right thing. God is watching.
Thanks Jim for the warm welcome. I know I’m not alone in appreciating what you’re doing with this website. It’s important.
You said, “To my regret, as a home group leader I think I was far more hard core “if you send your kids to that school, you’re nuts” than my sr pastor was.”
I appreciate your honesty. I suspect that if both sides (homeschoolers and public schoolers) could get inside each other’s heads, we would find that we all think the other side is a little nuts.
A Kindred Spirit, I believe that SGM has to change its image in order to increase membership rolls. They’ve tapped into the homeschool movement and now they are tapping into the popular culture. It’s necessary for business growth.
MetroStill, my experience is similar to yours in that I’ve witnessed efforts by those favoring homeschooling to go out of their way to welcome those who do not. Obviously, there are blowhards on every issue, but I have yet to run into one who home schools. I’m not saying they don’t exist. They’re just probably not the norm.
For people who have the best interests of their children at heart, they simply want to know the facts. If public school parents have facts supporting decisions favoring public school, then they should feel free to bring those facts to the fore. Likewise, for home school parents. This is about the wellbeing of children more than the egos of parents after all, right?
The same goes for the other issues – moms staying at home vs. taking a career, dating vs. courtship, etc.
These are all lifestyle issues sometimes influencing character and since character building is a part of Christian discipleship, how can the church be edified if members feel afraid to share what they know through either experience or through facts?
I like learning from other people. To me, it’s a great help.
The way I look at it people embracing all angles (courtship vs. dating, public school vs. homeschool, career at home vs. outside home) ought to feel free to bring up facts supporting their positions in a loving and kind way – for the building up of the church.
Obviously, a person who homeschools isn’t going to hell just for homeschooling and a person who public schools isn’t going to hell for that. But if one side or the other provides marked benefits for the family, then what is sinful about sharing those facts in a kind way?
Is it now a sin at SGM for parents to speak their views in love?
If anyone is interested in seeing how these issues became so emotionally charged, this is a good piece, especially starting with the 8th paragraph and moving forward:
http://www.newtotalitarians.co.....School.htm
I remember Brent teaching that women should stay at home. They could have a career IF there household was completely in order, as well as their family, etc. Since all Mom’s know just how difficult to nearly impossible that is (I stayed at home and had never ending laundy, dishes that always needed doing because a mom could never finish anything with children interrupting all the time (my sweethearts!) oh, and I had junk drawers as well) what he was really saying was that a Mom who worked outside of the home had to be PERFECT. Never met one of those women.
In the Charlotte church, working Mom’s (with children) found it hard to fit in. I don’t know if that is true today. If it is no longer true, then pastors should state that they were WRONG to teach what they did, to put women into such prisons of expectations.
I chose to be at home with my children and to home school. I, like Gracie, had the superior mentality that we were doing the best thing, that public schoolers were in a bad situation. I was taught this sour milk and drank it willingly. Having left PDI over 13 years ago, the bubble has been burst. It’s a big gray world out here! We must each hear the Lord and follow our convictions out of faith, not just follow the crowd out of fear. My convictions still lead me to home school but I now understand that other people have different convictions and must be free to follow them. However, if anyone says that pdi/sgm (at least in my neck of the woods) did not stir up this controversy by creating like thinkers instead of free thinkers, then that person is an ostrich with head in ground.
Interesting comments! DB and Kindred, so very nice to dialogue with you again.
Gracie, likewise!
Canary, I know firsthand what you’re talking about.
Patricia,
I understand where you’re coming from. I see it as “different strokes for different folks.” What’s best for me and my family, may not be what’s best for yours. I could share with you all day why I think a particular way of doing something is the best, but that doesn’t make it the best option for you. I think that’s where we get into trouble…trying to put everyone in the same mold or expecting everyone to function in the same way. That’s why you don’t see these types of things (schooling, career choices, mate selection, etc.) addressed in the bible.
I agree with you, I enjoy listening to both sides, it helps with the process in making a decision for ourselves. That’s why pastors and churches have to be very careful what they endorse and how they endorse it. They tend to carry a lot of weight when it comes to persuasion, thus the reason they’ll be judged more severely.
God made us all different. And if you really ”listen,” the Holy Spirit will ALWAYS let you know what’s best for you and your individual family. You really don’t need the input of anyone else.
In my opinion, being a woman, you’re d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don’t (pardon my french). I have heard many pastors talk about how looked down upon stay-at-home moms are and I think it’s hogwash. In some sectors of society, maybe, but I think ordinary people generally think highly of homemakers. Up and down my street are non-Christian homemakers. Good for them. I had a surreal moment several years ago when I was conversing with one of my non-Christian neighbors and I realized that she was judging me for having a career while I still had school-aged children. I had to laugh because I was so surprised to have been skewered for having a career by someone outside of my church.
Once I heard Brent talk about how career women dope their kids with Tylenol so they can drop their sick children off at daycare and dance off to the office to pursue their selfish ambition. Christians never differentiate between the true uber-feminist corporate climber (of whom there are a lot fewer than you might think) and the single mother living from paycheck to paycheck who is going to get fired if she misses work for a sick child. They know nothing of these distinctions.
I think the church as a whole needs to quit being so reactionary. Whether its faith or politics, we need to be ahead of the discussion – not dragging behind it. I think being reactionary is where these things go wrong.
Hello, dear Canary, as well.
Patricia, I am having difficulty expressing the atmosphere created within some of these churches. Some of the other posters here have said it well. You seem to have the idea, and I agree, that as Christians we should be able to converse and even disagree on issues that are not clearly outlined in God’s Word. That was not the atmosphere in my old church, nor in my sister’s. My old church may have changed some. In fact, years after we departed, we heard that the pastors there were sending their children to private schools. Imagine our surprise after homeschooling had been the order of the day.
Bottom line: SGM’s overinflated (IMO) view of pastoral/apostolic authority and the responsibility of regular members to follow them unquestioningly was the reason for the unhealthy atmosphere. If leadership believes they are hearing the mandates of God (on parenting, education, what have you) and are passing them on to the lowly sheep, then woe to the sheep who don’t line up with the program. Do you see what I mean? It was not always an atmosphere of mutual respect and recognition that the Holy Spirit dwells fully in each of us. There was not always the liberty to say, no, God is leading me to do differently. Not only that, when some of these “mandates” (or excesses) turned out to have serious downsides for some folks or when the surrounding communities started labeling SGM as “the homeschooling church” or “the courtship church”, then the public stance changed without much (or any) explanation.
But as Canary said, you would have had to be an ostrich with your head in the sand to not feel the pressure to conform in the air. It was that pronounced.
So SGM may back off on homeschooling, or courting, or whatever the flavor of the day is, but until they relinquish their elevated places of authority over the sheep and appoint real, impartial elders to hold them to account, I’m concerned the beat will go on.
I agree with the entire group about this. It’s silly to tell an entire gender full of people that they *must* do things one narrow way or they’re not leading a gospe-centered life.
You might as well tell all men they must be plumbers because they have a Y chromosome.
Also, the season in life in which a mother has a bunch of preschoolers and stays home with them is a small fraction of her entire lifetime. Even radical me with eight kiddos over a course of 20 years. When my youngest was going into Kindergarten, I decided to take a class to see if I liked school.
I liked school.
So I took two classes in the spring and applied and was accepted into the Biology program the following year when the baby was six and full time in first grade.
Now, I’m a Masters student and my dh helps out around the house but, much to what’s his name’s chagrin, the house has been woefully neglected because, I must confess, the house is last on the imaginary priority list.
Now I am not going to go write a book about my choices and try to coerse others to follow in my footsteps because each one of our lives is like a precious stone that is individually cut by the master jewler and that master takes our flaws and beauty into consideration when He cuts here and there every precious gem unique and beautiful in its own right.
I am not living my life in protest of others’ choices and I don’t try to put a little fish sign on everything I do, I hope my actions speak louder than logos.
Haha…I see now that these fine ladies have all basically said the same thing.
I wonder if things would be different today for SGM if they had put more stock in what women say.
A friend of mine who was a former SGMer at the SG church in my neck of the woods made the comment that her husband was told by a SG pastor to “get his wife under control” after she voiced her concerns.
At the meeting Danny said something that was very encouraging and sadly, I am not good at remembering exact quotes like so many people here can do. However, he said something along the lines of “25 years ago they started the church with the idea that they wanted a “real” church or “reality”. Then he stated that he now realized that what they have done is they have made having a good marriage and good kids etc. as an example of reality, and it is not. The gospel is reality.
Again, that is a very loose narrative of what he actually said. If someone remembers better, feel free to correct me.
I truly think Danny gets it. I am encouraged for the future.
Gracie said, “Bottom line: SGM’s overinflated (IMO) view of pastoral/apostolic authority and the responsibility of regular members to follow them unquestioningly was the reason for the unhealthy atmosphere. If leadership believes they are hearing the mandates of God (on parenting, education, what have you) and are passing them on to the lowly sheep, then woe to the sheep who don’t line up with the program. Do you see what I mean?”
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with those words.
I’ll share a bit of my experience here. I was in a different church for many years. It had much the same leadership style that SGM has and was cult-like. We left about 20 years ago. When I read the posts here I really identify with much of what people feel because I’ve been there. I know several people in SGM and have visited the church many times, so I know what’s going on to some extent. I have not drunk the Kool-Aid.
I hope what I’m about to say is helpful. For several years after I left my old “church” I did not want to have anything to do with the teachings that church had strongly emphasized. I had a bad taste in my mouth, so to speak. I had been taught a lot of error and it bothered me a lot as I tried to figure out what was true and what was not.
Over time as God continued working in my life I began to realize that not everything in my old “church” was rotten to the core. Much of it was, but not everything. I started to see that some of the things my old church taught actually were in the scriptures. While I was in my old church, I had been swallowing a lot of what was taught without thoroughly checking the scriptures “like the Bereans to see if those things be so”, so I assumed that what was taught was true without proving it scripturally.
What surprised me is I began to realize that not everything my old church taught was unBiblical or foolish. Much of it was, don’t get me wrong. But not everything.
Someone used the word “reactionary” which presents a good question. Years after I left my old church I had to ask myself the question, “How reactionary am I to the things my old church taught? Do I throw it all away because I’m upset?
I had to ask myself what really matters. Was it what that church taught? Or was it what God teaches through Scripture?
I had to ask myself how I needed to react to what God says in His Word about certain things. Does God’s Word say something about what I am reacting against?”
Forget SGM.
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support my view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support my view?
I’m bringing this up to show that all that matters is God’s perspective as shown through His Word the Bible.
What I think doesn’t matter a flip. What others think doesn’t matter. What an SGM pastor thinks does not matter.
All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?
Is God’s Word the truth? Or does it change?
After I left the old “church” where the leadership had been usurping God’s authority, I had to come face to face with – God’s authority.
Hey Canary!
I see you got off the cage, and are now on a tree branch.
Is that where you landed after going to Easter services somewhere?? (I hope?)
(How’d that go??)
- Defender
Patricia,
You kind of nailed it.
I keep thinking about a certain woman I know , who had her little buss load of kids, and then her husband died suddenly. She was left to support her kids all alone (he had no life insurance.)
If a woman has some kind of marketable skill in the event that she is left to make it alone, I think that could be part of God’s will, don’t you think?
In my case, my wife chose to stay home and home-school our kids. She got bored and took up a hobby. I lost my job and we have been provided for by God through her hobby. (That’s my {Proverbs 31 woman!)
I get really irritated when legalists try to tell other people what to do.
SGM needs to change its name to SJM (Selfish Judgment Ministries) Wadyathink?
Defender,
What a wife! I’ll bet you make a great team.
Yes, my picture has changed because of my Easter experience. You are very perceptive. I challenged a fear that turned out to flee when I faced it. Easter Sunday went very well, and there was much grace in the pastor who taught. He spoke on our freedom in Christ – how appropriate. He even ran to the back foyer near the end of the meeting so he could greet people as they left. How refreshing!
This little yellow bird is flying, now.
Canary:
I chirp, tweet and trill for you!
Happy Easter Ever After!
Canary, I vividly remember my first visits to other churches after we left our old one. A pastor visited us and was so kind and loving. It was refreshing. That taste of grace felt so renewing and still is!
Of course, I would be remiss not to acknowledge that I eventually found issues of different sorts in the new churches, but as long as the pastor was humble before God and preached from God’s Word – it was okay. We’re all human and as the saying goes, if I ever find a perfect church then I won’t be there.
Thank you, Metrostill!
Patricia,
The Bible was preached, grace was spoken of, and the Holy Spirit was welcome in the church I visited. I figured, if He is welcome and present, He must approve of the place, right? Not looking for perfection or I’d be looking forever on this earth…:)
Canary, you said:
“What a wife! I’ll bet you make a great team.”
Yes she is. She keeps me in line.
She helped me learn those three little words that are most loved by every woman.
Not “I Love You.”
Wait for it…………………………..
“You Are Right. (Dear.)”
It has kept me out of (most) trouble over the years.
Defender,
Ha – ha! The words I love to hear from my husband are: everything-will-be-all-right-cupcake. Six words that make me smile.
Definition of Extra-biblical…
“Extra-biblical refers to teachings, concepts and practices claimed to be supported by or taught in the Bible, but which are based on incorrect interpretation. In hermeneutics, the study of the methodological principles of interpretation, this is known as “eisogesis” (super-imposing a meaning onto the text), as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing the meaning out of the text).”
I tend to be easily swayed, so I’m TOTALLY dependent on the Holy Spirit for the understanding of scripture. I thank God frequently that He gave us the Holy Spirit to do such.
Patricia,
I agree with you that not everything in SGM is “rotten to the core.”
Most of the commenters on the blogs would agree with you, too.
“SGM created it’s “own society,” where women who worked OUTSIDE of the home and had careers were viewed unfavorably”
Greetings,
As a longtime member of CLC, I wish to comment on this statement. I completely disagree. This is not what CLC is about.
Instead, we are a community of Christians who take seriously the biblical command and calling to raise or children. Regardless of what schooling choices we make, we are called to love, train, instruct, discipline, and nurture our children. There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?
Instead, we are encouraged and exorted to work together, serving one another, so that all families, including single parents, are both providing for their families and fulfilling their calling as parents. When this is presented as a teaching, we are exorted to seek the Lord and His grace as to how we are to respond. No formulas or laws. We are to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. We are each responsible, as always, for the choices we make.
And as in any topic that is preached, we are warned not to be judgemental towards those who choose a different path than our own to reach these same goals.
Anyone who looks down at anyone else for any reason is sinning. I have been at both ends of this sin. It is easy to give in to temptation on this one. I know the “good feeling” that comes when I point fingers at someone and think that they are inferior for whatever reason. Of course I know better. Yet when I meet that person I was pointing at, greet them, and talk with them, I realize what a fool I was for those thoughts.
Thank you, In His grace, 30
30-
This statement seems to contradict the rest of your comment-
There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?
30 years said,
I completely disagree. This is not what CLC is about.
I don’t know about CLC but the Fairfax and Charlotte church were very blatant about what they thought of women working outside of the home. I don’t know how it is today – my experience was over thirteen years ago. Brent did say that women could feel free to work outside the home IF their home, kids, husband, etc. were in order. Back that with the expectations placed on women about what that order was suppose to look like (linen closets neat, no junk drawers etc.), the end result was that working outside the home was taboo if you had children. The heart may have been to protect families but the perhaps unintended result was that women were boxed in without being allowed to hear from God themselves about career vs. staying home. How do you think that made some of the single Mom’s feel who had to support their family without help?
The point is that this is yet another gray area that somehow became a religous rule. I also agree with Jim that 30years contradicts himself by the way he presents families with working Moms. Aren’t Mom and Dad able to decide how to split the childcare on their own? To put forward the theory that only sgm cares about the poor children of working Moms is ludicrous, though I might be assuming something 30years did not mean. These days, some Mom’s have to work just to help the family get by. They should not be shunned or made to feel guilty, but free to make the decision on their own.
Look at Defender’s wife, who swooped in to save the day by turning her hobby into a business, which now supports the family. He is so proud of her, and they now work together at home. What a wonderful thing! And what a great husband to encourage his Proverbs 31 woman.
People need to be free to seek God for the directions of their own lives. If the Bible does not strictly forbid something, why should the church?
Yes, you are right, Jim. That example needed more work in order to make sense. So ignore that sentence. There are certainly many situations where both husband and wife must work.
It is a heart issue where husband and wife must evaluate and decide upon – are the financial needs of the household being met? Are we fulfilling our responsibilities as parents?
So, Jim, is SGM really looking unfavorably towards women who work outside the home? Or are they exhorting parents to spend lots of time training their children, which usually requires a parent to be home when then children are young?
Canary….thanks so much for your kind encouragement!
But believe me, God knew and put things in place for our “hobby/business’ before we knew it was His provision to keep our family afloat! Believe me, I am SURE that every other woman on this blog is a better housekeeper than I am! And yes, Defender is a real man, and a godly, encouraging, leader and pastor to our children, who has never tried to squelch me but considered any and all ideas I have brought to him, while trying to stay at home to teach and raise our kids.
30 years said, “….is SGM really looking unfavorably towards women who work outside the home? Or are they exhorting parents to spend lots of time training their children, which usually requires a parent to be home when then children are young?”
You ask good questions.
I see a lot of opinions here. Could someone please respond to the following questions, as I’m trying to understand better where everyone is coming from. It is almost sounding like some here believe that God has no opinion and says nothing in His Word about these issues. Is this true?
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
I’m bringing this up to show that all that matters is God’s perspective as shown through His Word the Bible.
What I think doesn’t matter a flip. What others think doesn’t matter. What an SGM pastor thinks does not matter.
All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?
Is God’s Word the truth? Or does it change?
What do you believe regarding these questions?
Defended,
I’ll bet you keep house better than I do! My birdcage never seems to stay neat for long.
My point is exactly what you are describing. God made a way to provide for your family. If Defender had been as close minded as some of the men/leaders I met in pdi/sgm, you might not have had your business to fall back on in hard times. Your husband encouraged you in your talents. The Lord used that. Cool! My husband is like that as well. I just don’t understand why the church at large can some times restrict women so much. Ah well, one of those many questions I will have to ask the Lord when I see Him…
30years-
I left in 2006. I have no idea what sgm is currently teaching on a number of issues. I also believe that in some areas, teaching would vary from church to church.
Well Patricia, we are speaking of gray areas. A married couple should have complete freedom to seek God (and His word) on what is best for their family. Religous rules should not force their decision. The Proverbs 31 woman seemed able to care for her family and have a business of sorts.
From what you all describe, it sounds like it must have been awful. I’m so sorry.
Could someone please respond to the questions in my last post. All they ask is for a “yes or a no” answer with a little scriptural support. I really want to understand.
Canary, I’ve seen evidence of ego problems in SGM leadership. That is wrong in God’s sight and it has hurt a lot of people.
I shared in an earlier post my experience after leaving a “church” with similar leadership issues. I admitted that I got very reactionary by not wanting to have anything to do with any of the teachings that bothered me in my old church. In other words, I had been in one ditch – but after I left, I jumped into the opposite ditch.
After a while God led me to see that all that matters is what is in God’s Word and I found out that God does have something to say on every topic that concerned me. He created all things, so how could He lack an opinion?
Are there “gray areas” with God? Yes or no? And is the yes or no scripturally supportable? I say this because God’s perspective from His Word is what matters.
Canary, it is true that the Proverbs 31 woman cared for her family and had a business of sorts on the side. Are you saying that SGM taught that it’s a sin for a mother to have a home business on the side even if her primary focus is her walk with God and her relationship with her husband and her children?
God has given us all freedom to choose a path in life. If truth be known, no one can really force us to believe anything. That said, God has also given us many scriptures teaching principles that, if followed, can lead to blessings or some real trouble. God wants the best for us, does He not? So is it reasonable to think that He has omitted instruction (on certain topics) in His manual, the Bible?
Here are just a few samples showing where God has given instruction for our own good.
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.
Prov. 11:28 Those who trust in riches will be ruined. But a good person will be as a green leaf.
Prov. 15:14 Smart people want more knowledge. But a foolish person just wants more foolishness.
Prov. 19:2 Enthusiasm without knowledge is not good. If you act too quickly, you might make a mistake.
Prov. 14:34 Doing what is right makes a nation great, but sin will bring disgrace to any people.
From reading postings here, it almost sounds like some feel that church leadership and members should never discuss Proverbs such as those above, lest some be offended in the congregation.
Paul speaks about edifying one another in the church. I realize that many in SGM have gone overboard with this, but do we throw Paul’s admonition out for good? Or is there a way to edify those we care about in love?
Maybe what many here are most concerned about is not so much the do’s and don’ts as much as how the do’s and don’ts have been communicated.
Am I understanding correctly?
Listen, I do understand how leadership can abuse power by stretching scriptures beyond all imagination. But in the case of training children at home and women focusing their energies primarily on their homes – is this unBiblical? I’m trying to understand.
That’s why I asked if someone could provide scriptures to support their viewpoint.
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Sorry Patricia, but I don’t have time today to answer all your questions. Maybe someone else can. I have explained my position as best as I could. There ARE gray areas in the Bible where a person must seek the Holy Spirit and make an individual decision.
For example, my neice has two young children, yet she works one day a week as a nurse at the local hospital. She and her husband mutually agree that this is beneficial for their family, and for my neice, who worked very hard to become a nurse. Their children are well cared for during that one day a week. During the time I was in pdi, this would have been frowned at. Don’t know how it is today. Does my neice sin because she has an outside career? Some church leaders, in their tiny world view, would say yes. I say no.
Your last question is interesting and reveals much: Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
This is a gray area in the Bible, since it is silent on the matter of a child’s education, except that we must teach our children about the Lord. I personally dislike the humanistic culture that exists in public schools in my area, and choose to home school. However, another Christian parent might send his/her child to public or private school because they have better schools in their area, and more control over what is taught there. This is a personal, invidivual decision that parents make through seeking the Lord.
There is no one right answer for everyone.
The trouble with sgm in the past was that leadership would declare what was right for everyone without understanding this concept, that we are individuals with freedom in Christ to make our own decisions. We sheep also lived in fear and made decisions out of fear, whether fear of leadership (being shunned, etc.) or fear that we would somehow miss God. It was a symbiotic type relationship that kept many of us under a controlling, religious spirit.
I am so glad to be free of it, to walk in the grace of my Lord Jesus, to follow His leading, and to walk by faith.
Patricia -
Your questions could as easily be:
Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will NOT be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are NOT blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
How would you answer that set of questions? How would you answer your set?
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
30 wrote,
“Instead, we are a community of Christians who take seriously the biblical command and calling to raise or children. Regardless of what schooling choices we make, we are called to love, train, instruct, discipline, and nurture our children. There is the typical example of both parents leaving the house for 10 – 12 prime, daytime hours, returning home to household responsibilities, leaving precious little time (and energy) to fulfill their parental responsibilities. How can anyone glorify God in raising young children with this kind of schedule?”
First, I don’t “train,” my children, second, I don’t generally, “discipline,” my children in an adj. sort of way, rather discipline is relational and the word, “Train,” appears in this context once in the bible and the Hebrew word is much better rendered, “Dediccate,” which is also much more an interactive relational thing than something i do to my children.
Also, this stance ignores the main point I was making namely that the time period in which our children are young and in need of intense nurturing and attention is a relatively short period of our adult lives. I was with my children for the first five years of their lives and then slowly transitioned them toward the independence my adult children enjoy.
But even though I wanted to stay with my children when they were little, other people have made alternative lives for themselves. More and more dads are primary caretakers and there is thankfully more shared parenting between mom and dad.
I think there are multiple parenting models that are decent and Biblical, it’s a shame that only one is favored by a Christian group.
To the former SG pastor: Yes, you’re right that the questions could be flipped. Would you like me to answer those questions? I can answer both yours and mine if you like.
However I’d prefer to hear the thoughts of others here first, so as to understand better their convictions. Perhaps you’d like to start first? As a former pastor having seen this from many vantage points, your perspective is undoubtedly important and could be helpful to the discussion.
Patricia,
Here’s are a number of questions for you:
How do you think things would have changed if the Proverbs 31 woman’s husband died suddenly or perhaps became incapacitated? The fact is that she would have less time to devote to her home and her family. God’s desire would be for her to care for her family and keep them alive would it not? Would our God condemn her because her house wasn’t so tidy or she didn’t take her kids on out on dates anymore because she was exhausted from the load she was forced to carry? I don’t think so. I think He would rise up and call her blessed. There are times and situations in life that are not black and white. Scripture addresses some specifically, other times we use the principles and revelation of God’s character as a guide for us to live by. It does not address each and every circumstance that could arise in life. We are given the Holy Spirit to guide us, as we are illuminated by God’s Word. It is His job to reveal these uncertain areas to a family, not SGMs. What happens when the Proverbs 31 woman’s children go off to college? Is the part of her life with meaning over? I never witnessed esteem given to any work done by women outside of their home regardless of the circumstances involved. Women are made to feel defective when they don’t measure up to the picture of the perfect wife and mother, looking exactly like everyone else. It wasn’t something preached, it was something lived and modeled. How does that work out for the single woman? Where does she fit in at SG, when the perfect woman is Susie home-maker? I’d love to hear from some single women from SG and see how that went for them?
Patricia You asked:
“Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view? “
I ask:
Does God’s word teach that a woman is somehow unable to focus on her family (lovingly prefer them to her work) if she has a career? I think Canary already answered you with Prov. 31
Does God’s Word teach that the women who must work due to unfortunate circumstance, loss or hardship should be judged as less righteous? Isn’t her righteousness apart from works or outward performance? Romans 4:5-6
Doesn’t God look upon the heart? I Sam. 16:7
Hope
Hi Patricia, you have a great question
“All that matters is God’s viewpoint and we discern that through His Word the Bible.
Can I find a scriptural reference saying that “what’s right for one person may not be right for another”? Can I find a scriptural passage saying that “what’s true for you may not be true for me”?”
As Canary said, it’s a gray area. Without doing hard research right now, I would call upon the Freedom passages, that is, we are free in Christ as individuals in the Priesthood of believers to go boldly before God, and seek His guidance for our own lives as He leads us. It really is by the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we know what God wants for each of us. I do not believe God promotes Socialism in that we all must do and look alike. Our God is the God of the Individual. He saves us each, individually. We commune with Him, individually. We may gather corporately to share in His goodness and worship, but we are His, individually. We are individuals, with freedom in Christ.
Once upon a time, (a long time ago,) I joined a church, and the pastor told me; “My job is not to tell you what to do or how to do it. My job as your pastor is to bring you to a place where you can hear God for your self.” I loved that man like a brother. (Haven’t seen him in years though.)
My personal story here is how God stopped me cold in the parking lot as I was leaving work to go home right after my first son was born. The Holy Spirit gave me a flash reminder of the parable of the Talents. Remember that one, where the rewards were to be given cities for investing the talents? He told me that my son was my first city, “Invest in him well.” The Holy Spirit told me.
I’ll tell ya what. If ever the fear of God can come over a man for parenting his kids, that was how God did it for me. Absolutely no man will come between me and my “cities.” (I have three of them now.) My wife shares this conviction with me. I do not, or will not tell anyone, that that must be their parenting model or conviction. If anyone told me that my wife or I had to do one thing or another, I’d take it to the Lord, what I do from there is none of their business. I always thought that way, so without knowing it, my days in PDI/SGM were already numbered. I actually paid littel attention to what was taught, I had my “orders.”
These last two years of being unemployed and working with my wife in her hobby business has (in hind sight) been providential in the pastoring of my boys (yes, I am their pastor, as directed by God to bring them to a place where they can hear God for themselves,) in these last years of their High School education. They are currently in 11th & 12th grades and dual enrolled in High School and College. If ever they needed their dad to help them figure it out, it’s now.
I only know by experience, that legalists can forbid anything they want, but in Jesus Christ we are free from their bonds.
If you want a scripture, the best I can give you right now is 1 Cor 8:1-13. This is the chapter where Paul tells the Corinthians that some are free by their conscience to eat meat sacrificed to idols, while others are not. Paul does not condemn either eating or not eating, only to live in your freedom to eat, with respect for those who have less faith. I have always taken from that passage, that there will be differences at times, and we are to operate with Grace for one another.
Defender
Might be a good time for everyone to take a breath and thank God for His kindness to us, no matter how we feel about particular issues. I’m a hard-head on so many topics, and usually think that I’m right. I know on That Day I’ll know how wrong I was in so many ways. I’ll also know just how amazing God’s grace is.
Why does 30years keep telling us he’s gone for good, but then repeatedly break his promise?
Thanks Jim, you’re so right.
Yielding,
Hope
All I can say on this “woman’s role” topic is that, I believe, as long as she is wearing her burqua she can teach in the assembly.
I have unintentionally opened up a parenting/schooling debate with my counter-cultural comments. Really, I was just trying to illustrate how SGM got to be so peculiar, IMO. I think they started out with an admirable attempt to “bend the page backwards” as Brent once said, and cause Christians to think about other choices besides the social climate of the day. But somehow, somewhere in there, SGM’s problems with polity developed and emerged. Then, the good ideas to counter popular culture became God’s direction for SGM members at large, when (and this is the important part) they are not clearly mandated in the Word of God.
“There is no other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. ” Tell me that, preach it from the pulpit, require that I believe it to be a member of the church and I won’t complain a bit because it is a clear Biblical principle. Tell me that I must homeschool, look upon me as an inferior parent if I don’t, and I’m afraid you will have a revolt on your hands. I’m already spoiled. I know that God wants a personal, intimate relationship with me. I know that no one, absolutely no one, comes between me and the Father, but Jesus Himself. I know who I am in Christ and my position before the throne of grace. Not ever gonna give that up to a mere man. I’m stubborn as a mule on that point.
Patricia, there are lots of Scriptures that talk about parents’ responsibililties with their children. There are none that mandate homeschooling as the only viable way to see to those responsibilities. Having said that, you should know that I homeschooled my children through high school and even now, after they are grown and off to college, I work in a home school support environment. My decision to homeschool was my own, eventually. It took me a long time to cull the fear and legalism out of that decision and really hear from God year by year. Everyone deserves that liberty. So exhort me, if you like, with the merits of one thing or another, but if God’s Word does not lay it out in black in white, then give me my freedom to hear from Him myself.
In fact, I get downright excited about the kind of relationship this shows that the Lord wants with me!
Each time that the topic of parental responsibility for the raising/discipline/education of children comes up in the context of PDI or SGM, the two categories of memory keep coming back to me:
1) The collective stress that our family felt on Sunday morning walking into FCC (or whatever it is called now), knowing that we would of course encounter a number of families with small children. The stress didn’t come from encountering the families with children, but from knowing that, early on a Sunday morning, there might be a toddler or young child that didn’t “show us their eyes” and “greet with a smile”. Such encounters would frequently lead to an extended demand by a parent that the child greet us appropriately – and when they didn’t, a child was dragged off to the restroom to be “disciplined” with a wooden spoon, stick of material designed for a hot wax gun, or other “FCC-approved rod”. It just killed us to know that a child was beaten and reduced to tears because they didn’t greet us in the FCC-approved way.
2) The other “child discipline” that became normative within FCC/PDI/SGM was some child-rearing process that involved the theory that even infants were rebellious and needed authoritarian correction in all aspects of their lives. Feeding, waking . . . everything was defined by this insane method. I watched parents struggle under the pressure of this evil method, as they sought the approval of church leadership, at the detriment of their children. I understand that, like many practices of FCC/PDI/SGM, after a “season” of hell and damage – the leadership said “never mind”.
I used to just be sad about the damage caused by the high-control, strange and destructive practices of the SGM/CJ machine. I used to think that the leadership was doing the best that they could. Now it seems clear that it is just following the path of all destructive cults – the leaders become richer and more powerful, while people with wonderful and vulnerable hearts are damaged, abused and picked-clean. I used to be just sad, but now I am angry. Angry that people are taken advantage of by wolves in false-shepherd’s clothing.
Those of us who have left the SGM/CJ-Machine unfortunately have no power to directly bring about change from within. The corporate structure adopted by SGM and the wholly-controlled subsidiary churches, pretty much precludes anyone but the leaders exercising any meaningful legal control. Even if the worst of the allegations that have been made about the leadership in specific instances (i.e., Noel’s case) were successfully-actionable in court, I would guess that SGM would simply throw one or two leaders under the bus and say that their actions were contrary to the organizational directives and values.
The only power to bring change within such organizations comes from the legally-powerless members, exercising power by withholding the financial life-blood that is so close to the soul of the Corporation. This would mean a shift back to an Acts 2 church model . . . a model without “superstar” preachers, without basketball teams, without a “pastors college”, without big buildings, without bondage. Scary stuff. Lots of pain at the outset, but freedom as a destination.
As a woman who actually worked outside the home while at CLC (and gasp! teach in the “government schools”), I will tell you that I did have a leader look me in the eyes at Care Group while we sat in his lovely large Hadley Farms home that I was in SIN for working part-time so we could afford rent in a Moderately Priced Dwelling Unit apartment (as well as food and health insurance). That’s just one incident.
Most parents–male and female–I know work very hard to balance family and work. Would I have preferred to stay home with my little ones? Of course, but that’s not the life I got.
Caught in the spam filter!
Gracie,
A big, loud ”AMEN” to your 7:50 a.m. comment!
PDI Past,
The same for your 7:51 a.m. comment!
Patricia,
I once believed EVERYTHING could be backed by scripture, and I worked HARD to try to make scripture passages “fit” what I wanted an answer for. I would fight you over it and use scripture to beat you over the head to prove I was “right.”
To put it simply, I was a legalist.
I’m the type of individual that “has to know” I’m doing it “right.” I’m a perfectionist. It was only natural for me to feel the same way about my Christian walk after becoming a believer. If ever I wanted something “done right,” my Christian walk was at the TOP of the list.
I also needed to “feel” that I was right, that assurance that no matter what anyone else said
or did, what ”I was doing” was correct.
There ARE gray areas, Patricia. And rest assured, at some point, God will rock your world and SHOW YOU those gray areas. Those gray areas are there for a reason. They force you to trust *HIM*, to rely on the *HOLY SPIRIT*.
God did that with me, and I pray He does that with you, as well.
I’m in the spam filter with you, Acme.
I have to tell you, I’ve been rejoicing all day since I wrote my earlier comment. Meditating on the New Covenant makes gratitude and joy well up in me. He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!
WHOO HOO, Gracie!
I think it is interesting that the conversation picked up so much when we began talking about women working, home schooling, etc. Maybe a nerve was touched. Perhaps people are learning to think outside of the box that tradition keeps us in, to question why we do what we do.
Anyway, I’m with Gracie: He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!
When we have this sort of relationship with Jesus, then our lives become what He makes of them. That is where freedom is found with home schooling, women having careers, whatever personal decisions must be made in a family. We are walking with the Lord, He says, “Go this way” and we do. His sheep know His voice.
“He really wants intimacy with ME! So much so that He made a way to fellowship with ME, to talk with ME, to lead ME, to love ME daily. It never gets old. Heir of salvation, Purchased of God, Born of His Spirit, Washed in His blood! That’s ME (us)! We are invited to boldly approach the throne of Grace. WHOO HOO!”
I’m rejoicing with you, Gracie!!
PDI Past, your description of how Sunday services were for your family is very sad. I’m sorry you went through that and I hope your children are doing well today. I do hear a lot of anger in the posts here and it is normal to be angry.
Thread postings can get complicated and it can be easy to misunderstand what a poster is saying, especially when emotions are raw. It appears that some of my words have been misunderstood by a few here. I asked some good questions to foster some “thinking” – totally apart from SGM concerns. At some point it’s helpful to walk away from reacting to SGM and instead to walk into the pages of Scripture to search for God’s perspective. Until you do that, SGM defines you. Think.
I have not even given my take on the homeschool/mom-at-home issue and yet some of you are mad as hades making creative assumptions. It seems that your anger is so hot against SGM that it’s difficult to discuss this calmly. I never said women should not work outside the home or that all children should be home schooled.
And I hate to say this, but if anyone here is seriously concerned about those currently in SGM, the kind of verbage being bandied about here is not going to lend credibility to your choice to leave. I guess that is what saddens me most of all because I believe boards like this can do a lot of good in terms of educating people about SGM.
There probably are Biblically-minded Christians who will visit this thread and conclude that few here are really interested in what the scriptures have to say outside of freely given grace. Do you feel grateful enough to God to want to please Him in the way you conduct your life? Or do you think you can live and think however you want without even considering God? If so, then you cheapen the sacrifice Christ made on your behalf. Note: I did not say we can earn our way to salvation. But we at least ought to want to please God by the way we conduct our lives. The words many here have written in their posts give quite the opposite impression to a newcomer. It might help to pray about this.
I said earlier that when I left my old “church” (that had similar egotistical leaders to SGM’s), I went into reactionary mode. Many things my old church taught I wanted nothing to do with. I was angry. So I understand where some of you come from. I’ve been there, done that.
But I’ll just say this: At some point it’s important to get past the reactionary phase of hurt and anger and begin earnestly in deep repentance asking of God what His will is on all the different issues.
That’s why I keep saying over and over that all that matters is what God thinks. Not what I think. Not what anyone else thinks and not what SGM thinks. But some of you aren’t getting it.
Some don’t recognize that they’ve left PDI/SGM but have swallowed the cultural mantras all around us. Some don’t realize they’ve left the authoritarianism of SGM and instead placed themselves under the authoritarianism that is coming on America if we don’t all wake up.
It’s helpful to get in a place where you can consider things outside the box.
The way some of you are talking is like you want your church to be a “discrimination-free zone”. Is that what you want? For you to be free to say whatever you want, but to limit what others can say?
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?f.....eId=138681
Here’s something juicy good to chew on:
http://www.oneplace.com/minist.....chives.asp
This is bigger than SGM, people. Way bigger.
Patricia,
When my wife and I left SGM, we re-examined everything we were taught during our time there.
I highly recommend this, as it deepened our convictions.
What I personally try to avoid here is to try to convince others to agree with my conclusions ( I haven’t always excelled at this
). I want to accept our guests as they are, all in a different phase of the process that is becoming whole after SGM.
“This is bigger than SGM, people. Way bigger.”
I couldn’t agree more Patricia.
That’s why I always say, “As Goes the Church, so goes the Nation.”
SGM is only a small symptom of the whole mess we are all in.
My pastor said this morning that the American Evangelical Church is suffering from Spiritual Anemia.
I could go on and on, but that is not the topic here.
So We’ll just leave it at that. (For now.)
Jim said, “I want to accept our guests as they are, all in a different phase of the process that is becoming whole after SGM.”
I admire that and can see that heartfelt care in your posts.
Thank God that we have scriptures to prayerfully comb through to deepen our convictions so that they are based solely upon what God desires.
Patricia –
) I mean, do I go to scripture to find answers to these things? God created plants and I’m always killing mine. Am I somehow not following God’s will in watering?
Way way up on the thread here you said:
/He created all things, so how could He lack an opinion?/
Well, man has created many many things himself. Homeschooling and public schooling are both manmade systems, not God-designed systems, so, again, as others have said, I think this is an area of Christian liberty. Each person’s life, personality, talents are different. God made each unique, so it stands to reason that one person could feel the educational pull in one direction and the next person feel it in another. We are not cookie cutters or, if we are, why does God keep making us? Does he keep making us until he finally gets that identical part right? Couldn’t he do that from the get-go if that were the goal? And if we are all meant to be the same, heaven is gonna be REEALLY boring. Just sayin’ is all.
Let me use some hyperbole here: God created dogs, too, right? Does God have an opinion on how a dog owner trains his dog? Should I swat him for pooping on the carpet or rub his nose in it? Can I feed him under the table? I’m not sure. (I am NOT comparing kids to dogs. Well, I knew this one kid once …… it could be apt.
I’m being ridiculous, sure. But my point is this: Some areas ARE gray, but, thank God, he gave us brains and access to his wisdom. Seek it in all things, yes, but don’t expect that one person’s life and one person’s choices will look exactly like the next’s.
Patricia
Your post On April 11th. AMEN, great links and yes…I could not agree more!
Renee, please check:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?f.....eId=138681
And interview #5 here:
http://www.oneplace.com/minist.....chives.asp
Thanks.
I was going to back away from this conversation but this is getting a bit frustrating. Patricia, you don’t seem to be hearing what we are saying. I don’t understand why you are here. You make it seem as though we are all angry people, disobedient to God, forgetful of scripture, irresponsible parents…have I left anything out?
Your tone comes across very condescending, and you really aren’t hearing what people here are saying. We do love the Lord, we do love His word and follow it, and we do make decisions based on His leading. What more needs to be said to convince you? This is MY last word on the matter. Just had to come on and stick up for the wonderful saints who post here. Try listening a little better instead of preaching to everyone.
Dr. Erwin Lutzer is sharing the same concerns Dr. James Dobson and others were sharing twenty some years ago. I ordered the books and tapes, and donated money to support the cause.
The battle is ongoing, and I think most Christians understand this.
Dobson’s book was, ”Children at Risk, Battling for the Hearts and Minds of Our Children.”
Dr. Lutzer said, “biblically, the education of the children is in the hands of the parents.” I think we all agree. He went on to say that all 3 forms of schooling are acceptable – public, faith-based, and homeschool.
I’ve actually done all three.
When the children were in public school we were involved, just as Dr. Lutzer suggests. We knew what they were studying and who they were spending time with, and coached most of the athletic teams they played on. We served on PTO’s and advisory councils.
Am I missing something? (scratching head)
I’m with Canary, what is your purpose for being here?
And what the heck’s with this “discrimination-free zone” stuff? Is that what you’re calling commenters’ references to Christian liberty?
And another thing, what’s with all the “blessed if’s?”
“Does God’s Word teach that a married woman with children will be blessed if she focuses on a career outside the home and all the responsibilities that entails? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?
Does God’s Word teach that there are blessings if a parent allows secular people to teach his or her own children for 7 hours a day, five days a week? If so, can I provide scriptures pertaining to this subject to support that view?”
I too am completely befuddled by this conversation. I’m truly sorry, Patricia, but try as I might, for some reason I am just not tracking with you here.
In all areas of life, my husband and I endeavor to follow God and His Ways outlined for us in His Word. We have diligently taught God’s Word to our kids, and in doing so, hope they will be light and salt in their generation. We have not compromised God’s standards because of the culture around us. I’m genuinely confused as to why you would say that. In addition, I am not still hurt and blinded by my SGM experience. It was LONG ago. I am not angry with you either. I am adamant and even passionate about holding onto God’s Word, in this case God’s Word concerning the priesthood of the believer. Not sure why you were offended??? Maybe because I referred to “you”? I meant this to be the editorial “you”, not literally YOU. Maybe that will help?
I see and share your concern about public schools and the state of morality in our nation. I think it is appalling that California is trying to pass these discrimination-free zones you brought up. I am greatly concerned what will happen to our country if we turn away from God. I believe we should live our lives according to His principles. But in the gray areas, I believe we have liberty in Christ. Are we really that far apart?
“That’s why I keep saying over and over that all that matters is what God thinks. Not what I think. Not what anyone else thinks and not what SGM thinks. But some of YOU aren’t getting it.” (to herself, “but I certainly do.”)
Yep, as thick as oatmeal:
“There probably are Biblically-minded Christians who will visit this thread (to herself, “but they certainly haven’t arrived here yet.”) and conclude that few here are really interested in what the scriptures have to say outside of freely given grace (REALLY??). Do you feel grateful enough to God to want to please Him in the way you conduct your life? Or do you think you can live and think however you want without even considering God?”
Ok, lets turn your “polite” questions from above into ______________ statements:
1. You are not Biblically minded
2. You don’t really care what the scriptures have to say
3. You are ungrateful to God and so conduct your lives in shallowness here.
4. You think freedom means that you no longer need to consider what God thinks about your lives.
How poorly this sounds and reflects not upon those it seems you mean to admonish, but upon the admonisher. Veiling insulting, unknowing words in polite questions makes them no less patronizing. You’ve only just arrived. Why would you presume a secret view into hearts, determining that we possess a lack of motivation to seek God’s perspective of our situations? Wondering what your tie is to SGM, that has emboldened you to appear and proclaim our need for more biblical application? Have you attended a SG church?
Hope
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Is. 55:8-9
How about we admit that an online forum is a lousy place to carry on a conversation, quit talking past each other, and get back to trying to figure out why the folks who are celebrating at metro have any hope for change?
The congregation (The Church) still has zero voice. 4 men (assuming each of them has a voice) will decide for hundreds, because they’re just-that-special.
The just-that-special senior pastor can’t manage his own household, and yet he’s going to be your very own Moses. How wonderful for the saints who attend MLC.
Scott said it all at the meeting.
Thnx Jim
I am happy to do just that, Jim. Onward!
I agree, Jim.
Jim, You said “the congregation (at Metro) still has zero voice.”
………….And the wheels keep on a ‘turnin……….
We are grateful for the steps leadership has taken in bringing aboard the helps for bringing “issues” into the light…Family Meetings….Question and Answer time….Pastoral expressions of remorse etc etc……..its all so familiar………Can’t help but to remember apostle Gene E’s words to “The 3 (courageous) Couples” in the Chesapeake Story when all the horribly destructive counseling and leadership travesties were brought to confrontative light: “These pastors just need to learn a different way”——Learn a ‘different way’????????? We believe their ‘different way’ has become defined as continuing on in their same sgm structured polity rulings (sorry, cannot address them as pastoring),but in a more camouflaged manner. Because the “upper leadership” (cj,dh,ss,ge,jp,etc) take NO responsibility or see they have created a simmering destructive sub-culture which continues to control and distract Believers from walking in their full redemption as sons and daughters…and being led by Holy Spirit.
PDI Past, Your post brought lotsa nods in our household…particularly:
“……..people (in sgm) with wonderful and vulnerable hearts are damaged,abused, and picked-clean.—……The corporate structure adopted by sgm and the wholly-controlled subsidiary churches pretty much precludes anyone but the leaders exercising any meaningful control…………….The only power to bring change within such organizations comes from the legally powerless members,exercising power by withholding the financial life-blood that is so close to the soul of the corporation.”
As sgm’sUNBiblical counseling and authoritative soul wounding practices continue to be brought into the light–they have experienced loss in memberships and consequently necessarily withdrawing staff: Administrator positions in Chesapeake, Denvers, and Atlanta can no longer be financed. ——However, they will continue to ‘plant churches’ etc etc—because the wheels keep on a turnin…no matter what…….. We continue to pray that Gods Light of truth will continue to expose every crevice of life-killing legalism which has hi-jacked so many of Gods people.——Continuing to pray for Metro people— that they will awaken….and fight……..and remember that Jesus proclaimed Himself as “the Resurrection and the Life”—He is Savior Redeemer—not a law enforcer.
Okay by me!
My husband was asking me yesterday if many families had left ML, and are they still leaving? We also wonder why these pastors are not “de-gifted” as others have been for less “sin”. I told him I’d ask …
Canary – Excellent questions!
Canary, Gracie, Waters, DB et al – thank you for your passion.
Jim – thank you for your moderating.
Patricia – I hope you will stick around. We all have wonderful Freedom in Christ – to seek Him and find Him and live in Him.
Favorite passages: ( Matt 6:33, Heb 11:6, and Romans 8)
Hi Jim,
Appreciate the site and your commitment to help people recover. There is life beyond PDI/SGM!!
As a previous PDI pastor of many years my experience and perspective I share is mine and do not want to speak for others. I believe the majority of the pastors are caught in an authority matrix wanting to serve God and be pleasing to Him and obeying the higher authorities of SGM. Because of the fear of being disqualified or “de-gifted” they are beholden to their ‘bosses” rather than the leading of the Holy Spirit.
There is a misplaced trust in men over God. Confusion takes place as to what is the SGM model of authority and the Biblical model of authority because there is a vast difference concerning what fruit is borne when there are disagreements or challenges. After I resigned from PDI, I revisited some passages that would have helped me if I would have stayed with them. Hope they might help somebody out there:
When Shepherd intoxicated with authority and ambition: (Ezek 34, Jer 25)
1 – They destroy and scatter the sheep
2 – The sheep are left unattended which are considered evil deeds by the Lord
3 – They feed themselves while the flock goes hungry
4 – They look to their own prosperity and neglect the flock
5 – They don’t strengthen the sickly
6 – They don’t heal the diseased
7 – They don’t comforted the broken
8 – They have not sought the lost
9 – They, with force have, dominated the flock (flock serves the shepherd)
10 – The sheep are scattered and weakened to become food for every beast of the field
The fruit when Shepherds lead and care with the heart of God:
1 – They will be fed and cared for
2 – They will be fruitful and multiply
3 – They will not be afraid or terrified of the shepherds
4 – None will be missing (rejected or ostracized)
5 – The weak will be strengthen, the sick and diseased will be healed and the broken comforted
6 – The shepherds will search and seek out the sheep and deliver them from the beasts of the field
7 – They will be given fresh water and a place of rest
8 – They will bind up the broken and strengthen the sick
Thankyou, Irv, for communicating here and testifying to the fact that there is life (abundant!) after sgm!!!
Thankyou,too, for posting the fruits of Christ-like pastoral shepherding contrasted with the consequences of misplaced trust of men over God. You certainly carry a significantly needed insight.
Irv,
Welcome! Thank you, thank you for your post. The proverbial nail has been hit on the head. A friend of mine brought Ez. 34 to our ex-pastor, who completely ignored her. If only he had listened. He has since been “shanked” for the very abuses she was pointing out to him. Too sad.
I hope you are walking and pastoring by faith and in freedom, away from the control you were in. We highly value your perspective. I have printed your post for my husband and I to go over. There is a lot to learn in what you wrote. Thanks again.
I just tried posting twice but neither is showing up, not even as being in moderation. Either they disappeared into cyberspace or you might get duplicates of what I said!
Friends,
I was actually enjoying Patricia’s comments. What I get from them is that church is not values-neutral, that it does need to give input on practical/spiritual matters and then freely leave these gray area choices to the individual families. In other words, say, “Please seriously consider the ways that your lifestyle choices will affect your life and your family. This is what we have observed with many situations. How will this apply to you?” Home schooling and moms being at home with young kids are great (in my mind generally preferable) choices for those who are willing and able, and I’m glad that SGM encourages these. But I have not a shred of condescension toward those who can’t do it this way for whatever reason. They don’t have to justify anything to me. On the other hand, no one should be silenced for sharing what they think are the benefits of the way they personally do things, as long as they aren’t bashing other people. I’m glad for the people who did that for me when we had young kids and we were making those kinds of decisions.
BTW, my “legalism and false humility” antenna are on pretty high alert, and I tend to be skeptical about whatever I hear when I walk in any Metro meeting, but I think Danny preached quite well on Sunday. He didn’t shy away from the church problems, and he shared several times about “this is the way we thought, but there is so much more to it than we understood” — especially in terms of the man-centered thinking that if we all had good marriages, good parenting, good finances then everything was OK. He reminded us that we can have the joy of Jesus whether or not things are going well outwardly, whether or not is looks like we are being successful. He also said that there was too much focus on judging the inner motives of the heart, and that we don’t need to afraid of what other people in the church think. He spoke of the on-going victory over discouragement and despair that we can have from the resurrection of Christ. We are the Bride of Christ — he already knows our problems, and isn’t surprised by them, but when he looks at us, he sees beauty, not sin. Do we look around and see only ugliness in the church, or by eyes of faith do we see the beautiful Bride? (I must say, it really does take eyes of faith when churches make such messes… But then again, I have to realize we are part of the Church as a whole throughout nations and generations, not just this local body at the moment.) I was quite pleased. If you weren’t there, you can listen to it on-line.
Whether or not we stay in the long run, though, is another matter. That will depend on whether we see substantial steps in the right direction with leadership issues, not just the inspiring sermons from the pulpit. I do love the people at Metro, though: good people who need healing and wisdom. Can I be part of the solution? Maybe, but the spiritual health of my family takes priority over that. I guess the best thing for us to do is pray for God’s leading. That’s the whole point of everything anyway, being led by God and not man.
Canary
April 12th, 2010 at 11:38 am
My husband was asking me yesterday if many families had left ML, and are they still leaving? We also wonder why these pastors are not “de-gifted” as others have been for less “sin”. I told him I’d ask …
I would be happy to reply. I am personally aware of 15 family units who have left MLC since all this was exposed this past August of 2009. I am also aware of another 6 families who are on the fence. Sunday are thin.
I am not sure what the leadership at MLC does not get. I had 2 people call me today and ask what the skinny is and why I left. The family meeting should tell the tale well. All I can say to people is not to take on my issues or offenses. There is enough stuff out there. Take what you see and bring it. See how leadership responds to you. It won’t take long.
The train of thought at MLC with the pastoral team seems to be: 1. if you go with an issue they” bid you farewell and tell you to find a church that works for you”, 2.if you approach them about where is the accountability or how about an elder board to hold the team accountable now that we have not one, not two, but all three pastors admitting long standing sin patterns you are told “ we do not see that in scripture”
OK personally I do not see an entire team admitting and confessing long term sin issues allowable in scripture either without removal. I woud agree, where is the “degifting”. all of this and to read the new leadership statement on the web page making these guys sound well trained and recommended and accountable leaves a sick feeling in my gut. How about posting the public confession on the web page? That would be humility. These guys could take a lesson from John Piper in his own “seaching the soul”. John saw things and is stepping down until the end of Decemeber of 2110. The team at MLC want to run the church. Whats up with that?????????
We had “confession” in August. My meetings with leadership would not reflect that, if nothing else it made is worse. Now in March they “confess” again. We have not seen repentance from the first go around. As they have told us for decades, confession is not repentance. Repentance is change. I am not holding my breath.
Irv -
Great post! I had been thinking of Ezek 34 the past few weeks.
Thanks,
Former SG Pastor
Canary, I’m so happy that the Easter service was good for you! I’ve been wanting to ask but didn’t want to pressure you. So happy!!!!!!
FSGP, Waters & Canary — Thanks for the kind words.
Canary – I have not returned to a pastoral position since I left PDI but I am very involved with training Christian leaders (church and marketplace). First order of business is learning to live and lead beyond the cross experiecing the glory of His kingdom. It is very exciting when men and women see and start living in their freedom in Christ and the power of ‘His’ righteousness and understand their potential for world impact. If we are in the 11th hour that Christ is set to return, then we have much to do.
As I read and understand the word, Jesus return is predicated by the ‘gospel of His kingdom’ being preached in all the earth. (Matt 24:14) and we make go and make disciples of all nations – So to God be the glory – thy kingdom come on earth as it is heaven. Blessings!
Irv
Eye Robot –
You’ve made a lot of general accusations that could be interpreted or understood in many ways. Can you specifically explain/justify why you believe the Metro pastors have sinned in such a manner that they should step down or be put in a position where an oversight board should be installed to ensure they “behave”?
Thanks
John Piper has an interesting take on who elders are. (thanks for the quote Jim)
http://www.desiringgod.org/Res.....he_Elders/
Confused?
April 13th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
“You’ve made a lot of general accusations that could be interpreted or understood in many ways. Can you specifically explain/justify why you believe the Metro pastors have sinned in such a manner that they should step down or be put in a position where an oversight board should be installed to ensure they “behave”?
Dear Confused,
First off, if you were at both family meetings you should be far from confused. Leadership named their sin in August. They named more sin in March. I DID NOT name their sins. They did. Confession is not biblical repentance. There was no fruit when confronted by a pastor on their own staff < Todd> for over a year. Dave Harvey, Wayne Brooks and other were aware of issues again, for over a year. There was no fruit after the August family meeting. Danny then requested help in late fall from Dave Harvey. Why are you confused? How much unrepentant confessed sin should the congregation allow? Maybe a closer reexamination of the biblical requirements for leadership should be investigated by those at MLC left behind. No deacons, no elders, no accountability and you feel safe? It sounds a bit codependent to me.
If your issues are that you need a reason why the entire pastoral team should be removed maybe you should change your moniker to blind. Confused does not even come close.
Confused?
April 13th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
This is what confessed sin from leadership should look like. This is what HUMILITY in a pastor looks like. If you have ever heard of John Piper I would suggest reading this article on John taking a leave of absence for much much less of an issue than what MLC s going through. READ IT Thoroughly! This is only a SMALL piece of the article.
John Piper’s Upcoming Leave
Download:
By John Piper March 28, 2010
As you may have already heard in the sermon from March 27-28, the elders graciously approved on March 22 a leave of absence that will take me away from Bethlehem from May 1 through December 31, 2010. We thought it might be helpful to put an explanation in a letter to go along with the sermon.
I asked the elders to consider this leave because of a growing sense that my soul, my marriage, my family, and my ministry-pattern need a reality check from the Holy Spirit. On the one hand, I love my Lord, my wife, my five children and their families first and foremost; and I love my work of preaching and writing and leading Bethlehem. I hope the Lord gives me at least five more years as the pastor for preaching and vision at Bethlehem.
But on the other hand, I see several species of pride in my soul that, while they may not rise to the level of disqualifying me for ministry, grieve me, and have taken a toll on my relationship with Noël and others who are dear to me. How do I apologize to you, not for a specific deed, but for ongoing character flaws, and their effects on everybody? I’ll say it now, and no doubt will say it again, I’m sorry. Since I don’t have just one deed to point to, I simply ask for a spirit of forgiveness; and I give you as much assurance as I can that I am not making peace, but war, with my own sins.
continue at this link:http://www.desiringgod.org/Res.....ing_Leave/
Eye Robot –
I am asking questions as a learner. I am not here to accuse or attack
I’m still not clear on what specifically you are concerned with or how you have come to the conconclusion that they are unrepentant. What have they done (specifically) that you find them as being unrepentant of and what would it look like for them to be repentent?
Is this primarily a church government issue to you? Would your evaluation of them be different if they changed to a more congregational or presbyterian (or otherwise) style?
Also, just a thought, but I don’t think that John Piper is the gold standard for how to respond in every situation. It’s easy to point to a situation you are unfamiliar with and say the same solution should be applied to another situation you are familiar with and while it may be true, it may not always be appropriate.
Thanks!
“I was actually enjoying Patricia’s comments. What I get from them is that church is not values-neutral, that it does need to give input on practical/spiritual matters and then freely leave these gray area choices to the individual families. “
I want to honor Jim’s request, MetroStill, but I thought that’s what*WE* were saying. I joined in the conversation because I felt Patricia was implying that scripture specifically addresses the gray areas being discussed.
Thanks for that link, Paul.
Confused..
Most of what you are asking I answered above and in prior posts. Are you a member at MLC or are you just an inquiring mind? That may help me serve you in trying to figure out what you do not understand. I would be considered a long time member, insider and along with 15 other family units have approached the MLC leadership team about specific areas of sins and failings. All of us have left MLC since the fall of 2009 to present due to the lack of repentance in specific areas that they themselves confessed.
I am perplexed what is it you are attempting to learn. Confession does not equal repentance.
As for church government goes, I would agree JP may not be the standard as you put it, but God is. Take the time to read the article with biblical references on polity. Wayne Grudem and others would concur with biblical structure as well. Plurality of elders in not scriptural and that is the stance of SGM and MLC. If you look on the SGM website/bookstore Confused you will find all Dave Harvey’s books on POLITY gone! Why? They know there stance is wrong and has been for 30 years. I remember when there was no senior pastor and they were co leaders. That is another story in itself.
Eye Robot – I too remember with fondness when we were co-leaders with a mix of paid elders and non-paid elders. Friends first leaders second! Deferring to another’s gifts! Guarding and protecting each other’s weakness (rather than exploiting). Then came the revelation and return to the laity and clergy model and the Sr Pastor (ruling or lead pastor). As leaders we went from being shepherds and servants to being the authority of God in people’s lives. Naturally the flow of serving was reversed!
This is probably over the top for some but I will say it anyway. I don’t trust any professional politician because their first priority is to protect their own well-being over their constituents. I find the same analogy with the professional pastor!!
Irv -
You are reading my mail, so to speak. I too remember how much I enjoined co-leading a small group study. Guarding/protecting vs exploiting? That comment is so spot on that it is painful to read and think about!
“Naturally the flow of serving was reversed!” That is a keen diagnosis of the underlying problem!
Truthfully, Irv? I would probably trust a politician before I would a pastor. I expect a politician to be dishonest. The legacy of SGM with me (and my family) is that I expect a pastor to exploit and cause hurt.
Great post, Irv!
Former SG Pastor
Thanks FSGP – Would love to connect with you off line if you are so inclined. If so shoot me an email to irv911help@yahoo.com — Not a problem if you are not!!
Truthfully, Irv? I would probably trust a politician before I would a pastor. I expect a politician to be dishonest. The legacy of SGM with me (and my family) is that I expect a pastor to exploit and cause hurt.
What a sad legacy for the leaders involved to have left with many of us who followed their “rule”.
Many years back, something was said by our pastors that should have immediately caused me concern. However, I was far too young to understand. They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision. Red alert! Abandon ship!
Canary quoted something she heard “many years back-
“They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision.
A pastors role is seen quite differently in scripture.
Ephesions 4: 11 – 12 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thanks
Canary – your statement:
“Many years back, something was said by our pastors that should have immediately caused me concern. However, I was far too young to understand.”
This really rings true. If we knew then, what we know now, would we have bought-in to the twisted reality produced by the PDI/SGM machine? The “knowing” part does not necessarily apply to a deep academic knowledge of theology, but rather a better understanding of the nature of human beings.
Too often, the worship or awe of leaders can slip into our lives and blind us to reality. By the time our eyes are opened wider, these leaders have grown to really like the golden pedestal they have been placed on and their pride does not allow them to easily accept questions that threaten that high place. (Satan does indeed love the pride of us humans . . . it gives him such an easy way in to damage and destroy.) The leaders are then left with the options of either climbing down from their perch – or – helping those that would dare question them to move on.
The dynamic that tends to develop in such organizations is the formation of a leadership royalty (and family), surrounded by the loyal long-time follower group (motivated by a wide variety of reasons). This central core of the organization remains fairly static over time (except for the occasional “degifting” to maintain order). The survival of such organizations is based on a broad financial and human resource foundation of new believers, seekers, visitors, young families focused on children, jobs and the acquisition phase of life and transfers looking for any number of things. This largest group, tends to have a significant desire to believe the best about the smiling leaders and instant-friends that they encounter at “the happiest place on earth”. Because of demographics, life patterns and eventual discernment, this group tends to see a fairly high turn-over. As long as those who leave are replace by equally-pliable group with sufficient financial resources, the leadership survives and has no real reason to change anything.
Canary quoted something she heard “many years back-
“They said, paraphrased, that we (the members) were to put ourselves in the position of serving them so that they could fulfill their vision for the church. Basically, we were to serve their vision.
If I can be so bold to make a judgment concerning church leaders today. What I have observed, the church today is about “A man and His ministry”. The church has taken on a worldly concept of leadership under the guise of spiritual leadership. Result: the church today is a testament to the leader(s) not Christ.
So Canary is absolutely right – this is how the 21st century leaders think about the church. In their minds, it is about their vision, their ministry and their calling and the church be damned. Those who gain favor and promotion are those committed to the pastor’s vision. With regards to SGM, it is about the ‘A team’ and everyone performing for the good of SGM not necessarily the good of the congregation or the community they are attempting to reach. I would love to say it is an affliction of SGM alone but it isn’t.
It has become about the big name, big church and multitude ministry. Jesus developed leaders with His life not teaching to the multitudes. In my opinion leaders are more impressed with what they have to say not about equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. Let me take it a step further, equipping the saints for the ministry today is not about equipping the saints to engage the culture or the bring the gospel of the kingdom to their neighborhoods or communities but all about the church (the local assembly). Check the fruit!!! The vast majority of church growth is transfer growth.
To all Christians I would counsel don’t listen to what they (leaders) say watch what they do!!!! For example: when a pastor stands in front a church and communicates how much he loves the church, what are the actions that prove the statement? Or does he love the fact that the church comes to serve his vision and to hear the great things he has to share with them.
The Bible says that to those who try and save their lives will lose it but those who lose their life for His sake shall find it. My observations tell me that with pastors today there is a disconnect with the world and the mission to the nations and it is all about them (their teaching, their congregation, their leaders, ad nauseum). The result is the church has lost its life and replaced it with a form of godliness but they have denied its power The Bible says avoid such men as these (2 Tim 3:5).
I don’t mean to be harsh but we live in desperate times and the times call for desperate measures. Where are the Sons of Issachar???
Along with the toxic leadership culture that seems to have gained such strength in PDI/SGM, maybe one of the other difficulties could be the internal orientation of the corporation church. The call is to serve as witnesses “to the ends of the earth” – not within the bubble of “the happiest place”.
If there was a true pursuit of this calling, what would these churches look like?
less wealthy
more diverse
more energy to evangelism, service and care for neighbors
messy! more people who had no fear of transparency
people asking inconvenient questions
people unimpressed with style and more concerned with substance
I know that God calls different churches to different types of ministry – but he certainly never called them to be an insular holy-huddle.
Certainly “those people” are outwardly welcome at churches of the PDI/SGM machine, but it they don’t quickly have the look, vocabulary, life style and appropriate level of adoration and groveling before the leaders . . . they just will need to move along.
Hey Jim, I sent you an email last week. Did you get it?
A quote by Wayne Jacobsen that may pertain here: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
Hi. It has been a really long time since I’ve posted on here, and I think I need to change my moniker to something new, like healing in process or almost healed or something, because I have experienced a significant amount of healing since my SGM experience several years ago.
On occasion, I will still run into someone who has been an unfortunate casualty of this ministry, and when I do, this causes me to re-examine my own personal experience there, relect upon what exactly happened, my own personal observations, and what I’ve learned through the whole process.
And, during this time of reexamination, I usually end up getting on this blog or googling something like, is SGM a cult? Which, incidentally, is how I felt when I left and even today, upon reflection.
I am not saying that SGM is a cult, per se, but I think there was an environment there that lended itself to a cult like mentality.
I’ve not read all of the comments here; I just got on today, and there are so many. But, I just wanted to share my perspective from my experience because I do see that there are some people on here that disagree and seem to be defensive of SGM.
Many times I’ve tried to put my finger on the main problem there, and it has been difficult, but my husband and I have been discussing it today as this issue has resurfaced in our lives again because of my path intersecting with someone who has experienced some pain and difficulty in the last couple of years.
I think some of the difficulty in pin pointing the issues lie in the fact that SGM is very concerned about “right doctrine”, and on the surface, everything looks good.
What my husband and I talked about a while ago is that it seems like SGM tries to systematize everything, to put everything in neat little categories and boxes. This is what a Christian looks like, come to us and conform to our standard and our image of how a Christian should look. This is what “biblical fellowship” looks like, this is how a Christian family should educate their children, these are how family relations and dynamics work, this is how two young people begin the process of marriage, you must discipline your children in this manner, and so on.
Not only that, but let’s put God in a box, too. This is His position on a stillborn infant, someone who believes in Jesus and is a Catholic…since leaving SGM I’ve come to the conclusion that there really are some things about God that are mysteries, and there are tensions that we just can not reconcile this side of Heaven, and that is OK…it really is OK.
Although humility was preached a lot there, I believe that SGM had (or still has?) an air of superiority about them, as though they are the only ones getting it right, they are the only ones with the “right doctrine”, “we” are the “local church”…I think a lot of this was evidenced by the fact that they never (that I’m aware of) ever partnered with any local churches or ministries. Maybe a few in other countries.
Jesus tells us that we are salt, and that means actually getting out of the shaker and permeating our society, giving it flavor, slowing down the process of decay…
It seemed that if they (meaning leadership) didn’t agree with every little “jot and tittle” of someone’s theology/doctrine, then that particular person/ministry was just sort of written off.
And, I think that there was just an inordinate emphasis on the authority of the leadership (well…there was actually an inordinate emphasis on quite a few things…submission, indwelling sin…)
It is very difficult to describe the enviornment and atmosphere to outsiders or even to folks within the movement that just don’t seem to “get it.” I think as long as you have no major problems or issues and you’re sort of towing the party line, things go OK.
But, if you face a personal crisis, and you follow the “prescribed formula” and don’t show the expected results…well…that’s a whole different ballgame.
My perception is it was very legalistic (although God’s grace was preached a lot) and authoritarian, and this environment had a very negative, harmful affect on my life.
We were only a part of our church for maybe four years, but it had serious repurcussions for me, and it has taken me a good, full three years to reach a place of peac and a measure of healing.
And although I probably still deal with issues every now and then, I am finally able to discuss this from a more rational perspective, able to make observations about what happened, what went wrong (or what is wrong), what I’ve learned, how good has come from this, as opposed to a place of deep, deep woundedness.
God placed good people around me to facilitate my healing, and He has also seen fit to use my past experience to bring comfort to those who’ve been hurt as well, and I am deeply thankful for that. I think of that wonderful verse in 2 Corinthians …
“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God.”
I do think/hope that things are changing, and I did receive an apology from my Pastor there; I just wanted to once again share, from my perspective, what seemed to be a couple of the biggest issues, at least during my time of attendance. Maybe this will be helpful for some who just don’t seem to get it.
Thanks for allowing me to share. Peace and blessings to all of you.
Confused?
April 15th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thank
Yes, CONFUSED>>>>>>>>
The whoel article is on polity as prescibed in the NT. Check on Dave Harveys books on Polity yet?? ALL GONE!
Confused?
April 15th, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Eye Robot –
I’m not sure I know which article you’re referring to. I read the John Piper article and it does not refer to scriptures on polity though it does describe the process they used at his church within the context of their government.
Thank
Yes, CONFUSED>>>>>>>>
The whole article is on polity as prescribed in the NT. Check on Dave Harveys books on Polity yet?? ALL GONE!
Still Wounded,
Welcome back. Your post is very helpful in describing some of the weaknesses of the sgm organization. Isn’t amazing how your understanding grows the further you get from your sgm experience? I really hope things are changing there. It is a good sign that your pastor apologized. It is also great that you are moving forward and that you have friends to help.
My husband and I were talking yesterday about the simplicity of Christ. Being a believer really shouldn’t be as complicated as some churches make it. It is so refreshing to the soul to return to the One who sacrificed so much, and to learn from Him. His burden is light.
Hope to see your name change soon, no longer wounded!
EyeRobot— Perhaps SGM leadership is scrambling to authenticate their newest polity/doctrine declarations (and deletion of their old Biblically errored ones)….wonder if they will ever communicate their changes to their congregants whilst confessing their errors of the previous DH and JP polity writings??????— Well– true,genuine, authentic,transparent, humble men (men….m-e-n) would do so…………..
For the yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrs of horriffic counseling practices and law-driven leadership control———–sgm leadership takes no responsiblity.
In our familys restoration process, we are studying Colossians with a group of people and a pastor.—Colossians,the little packed full book revealing our sufficiency in Christ!
One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
“The message of the Gospel: ‘We (redeemed Believers) are fully reconciled and are sons forever. When we TRY to be a son we are walking ‘in the flesh’.—Pauls answer to this:
Col 2:22b (we have died with Christ,have risen with Christ and are in Him—so why would we submit ourselves to the commandments and teachings of men)
“The ability to walk in the spirit and say no to sin doesn’t come from rules etc but a mind that has been captured by the RISEN CHRIST AND WHO WE ARE IN HIM.
And in Him, we walk in Him, to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…..and to love your neighbor as yourself.” ( Matt 22:37-39)*********** There would be evident clear fruit in this command to love others: We would NOT demean,cast-out,discard, seek to rule, bring emotional or spiritul harm,
misrepresent,speak disengeuiously of,cover up abuses,twist scriptures,seek our own agenda or doctrine, retain and promote puffed-up leaders. We have seen and do still witness these attributes in SGM leadership/apostles….and …. we continue to watch,speak the truth,and go forward as sons and daughters of the Risen Christ.
Praying for you,’refugees’ and ‘survivors’— that you (and we) will come to know, more and more, the unfailing love of the Father God Who has “qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. For He rescueD us from the domain of darkness, and transferreD us to the Kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” (Col 2:12-13) This is the Good News we can walk in and share and proclaim to those in our ‘field’ and the world!!——- Blessings to you all———
Waters, wrote:
“One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
“The message of the Gospel: ‘We (redeemed Believers) are fully reconciled and are sons forever. When we TRY to be a son we are walking ‘in the flesh’.—Pauls answer to this:
Col 2:22b (we have died with Christ,have risen with Christ and are in Him—so why would we submit ourselves to the commandments and teachings of men)
“The ability to walk in the spirit and say no to sin doesn’t come from rules etc but a mind that has been captured by the RISEN CHRIST AND WHO WE ARE IN HIM.”
ABSOLUTELY–AMEN!!!! What you wrote is pregnant with LIFE and rich in TRUTH, and the WAY to walk. If we would, instead of reading His WORD, looking for rules to follow, we too would turn our world upside down, because the resurrected Christ would spill out of us onto those in our proximity. Grace woos us to genuine intimacy with the LIVING CHRIST, and from that and only that come real spiritual fruit that has little to do with our striving in the law.
Waters
April 17th, 2010 at 11:34 am
YES AMEN PREACH IT <<<LOL>>>> WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That would be what I have found in the new season.
Waters, wrote:
“One of the quotes given was from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
BTW Waters — Great post!!!!
I had not seen this quote before but it is painfully true. The solution has to come by changing our core belief system of our identity in and with Christ. I would submit that too many Christians are operating under a skewed belief system. As long as leadership does not have a Biblical view of God’s people, there will be blood. Government by its very nature produces an adversarial relationship (them and us). This is not the kingdom of God – righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
As long as believers continue to see and identify themselves as sinners then there will be inappropriate government within the church. We were once sinners but now we are sons of God and the sons of God are led by the spirit. Jesus came to set us free that we would be free men never again subject to a yoke of slavery. Freedom and grace have become ‘four letter’ words in Christendom because they have been defined by the law not God’s glory.
I have heard so many pastors say you have to teach grace and freedom in balance. In balance to what? A good balance of law and grace! Or a good balance of slavery and freedom. All believers are citizens of God’s holy nation, part of His royal priesthood, and a chosen race. We are new creations given a divine nature, the mind of Christ and sealed in the Holy Spirit. His grace is ‘lavished’ upon us in Christ. God’s glory now clothes us (put on Christ) and we are to be the expression of God’s glory in the earth. His law is not His glory.
We have been made perfect (completing all requirements for righteousness) and we are the righteousness of Christ. Why do we continue to try and attain righteousness when we are His righteousness?
As long as leaders continue to see people as sinners the focus will be sin. The more sin the more law. The more law the more sin. How many of God’s people have to be destroyed before we get the picture. When we share and read the stories of good people who have been hurt and in some cases destroyed, are these the example of grace, mercy and freedom we have in Christ? Is this the love that the world will see and know we are His disciples? I don’t think so.
Greetings, Irv,
When we choose to sin, we are not walking in freedom and grace.
We are made alive, brand new, and set free from the power of sin because our risen savior Jesus, yet we still choose to sin.
Sin hinders our relationship with our holy God.
Throughout the new testament there are lists of specific sins. We are exhorted and warned to turn and run from these sins and embrace the freedom we have in Jesus when we are tempted to sin. We are given specific instructions to repent and ask forgiveness when we do choose to sin.
Pastors regularly point to these sins listed in scripture as further exhortation to turn from temptation and sin so that our own personal walk with Jesus is unhindered.
As Christians, we still choose to sin, and this can cause pain and suffering to others. However, I am also aware of many years worth of testimonies of God’s grace, love, provision, healing, kindness, mercy, joy, and freedom in Christ. All of this serves as a witness of God’s love to the world. Even when we sin, we demonstrate to the world God’s love and mercy as we make things right according to His word.
In His grace, 30
Hope sent this link to me from Terry Virgo’s site: http://www.newfrontierstogethe.....tline.aspx
It is a short read, worth checking out about our state of grace.
Hi 30years,
Appreciate your comments. I totally understand where you are coming from and it was what I taught for years. In the process of healing post PDI the Lord began puting me back together and I began to see the power of His redemption, His righteousness and His glory with respects to His kingdom.
From what I have heard taught by leaders and my observations, Christians for the most part identify themselves more with their sin rather than their identity as new creations in Christ. So in affect we live on this side of cross trying to overcome the flesh not on the victorious life beyond the cross in the spirit of Christ. The tendency is then to spend much of our energies trying to overcome sin rather than our life in Christ – “it is no longer I who live but Christ living His life in me”.
Leaders constant reinforce the church with their sinfulness keeping their energy and focus on the sin and the law, whereas we the spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death. As a new creation focus and energy can shifted to the things of His Spirit, His kingdom, His righteousness and His glory.
Freedom comes first understanding the reality of what Christ did on the cross and second to appropriate this reality in our lives by faith beyond the cross. (Col 2:6) In my opinion Christians who do not understand our freedom Christ will immediately be concerned about sinning rather than being released to live in Christ and Him in us.
The glory (Ex 33 & 34) of God resides in us through Christ. Seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, is placing of the utmost priority the citizenship of His kingdom and renewing of our minds to the truth of His righteousness in us. (over simplified)
The Christian life is not about the mortification of sin – otherwise the cross is rendered powerless in our lives – but to the fulfillment of His plan and purposes in the earth for which He has set us apart in Christ. The Christian life is about enjoying God and expressing who He is to the world – an expression of His glory and reconciling men who are lost to God!!
Though I understand “choosing to sin or not to sin” I believe it is an identity issue; identify with Christ’s life, crucifixion (death), burial and resurrection or do I identify with Adam. I have been made a slave to righteousness in Christ It a walk of faith – knowing what I believe will be the fruit of my life (Rom 8).
Canary & Hope – great article by Terry Virgo!!
Good conversation on my favorite topic. I think Irv and 30 are both partially right.
We can’t ignore the mortification passages any more than we can ignore the identity passages.
SGM’s error (although “Sons and Daughters” is a step in the right direction) is an overemphasis on Rms 7, NFI’s error is a misinterpretation of Rms 7, thinking Paul was referring to his life before his conversion.
…And the fact that they have their own “apostles”
As an aside, Waters’ Jones quote is a classic!
30years…,
I was about to reply to Irv Re:April 19th, 2010 at 10:54 am and noticed your most recent post.
(I can’t believe I’m going to say this……….)
With a few exceptions, I ….. agggggggggr. Aggggggrrrrhu.
(Deep breath) I ………. agree ……….with you.
Uh!
Cough!
I need a drink!
Okay better.
All kidding aside, (I have almost NEVER agreed with 30years…)
I want to comment on Irv’s post. Your wording, Irv, in post April 19th, 2010 at 10:54 am can leave someone thinking that we can be “sinless” in this life. If not, perhaps a clarification from you can help.
******NEWS FLASH******
Irv did reply before I was ready to post this and makes a little more sense now. Thanks Irv.
******RETURN TO POST IN PROGRESS****
I would agree with 30years here that we do, in fact, sin even though we are currently redeemed. It is a theological tension that Luther commented on saying we are “simultaneously saints, and sinners.”
Waters quoted from Dr Jones: “Wherever the Gospel of Grace is preached legalism raises its head” !!!!–”When the Gospel of Grace is preached we feel we must insert a rule or regulation to perform.”— “This distracts us from Jesus Christ,which then draws us into the law.” – ” The heart of legalism is for others to conform to your conscience.”–
Great quote! Thanks Waters.
This is where I strongly separate from the SGM model of “seeking your sin” or “killing your sin.”
Yes 30, we do choose to sin. We have an advocate to testify on our behalf that the sin we (just) committed has been paid for in full. The Holy Spirit convicts us of that sin, and we ask forgiveness and repent to God, and our relationship is restored.
Now, that restoration is not about re-salvation, it is like Peter mentioned concerning our prayers being hindered. There is a tension in our fellowship with God, and it needs to be corrected. Jesus paid the price for the sin, we need to be in a state of understanding of our sinful state, (yet paid for,) but not condemned.
I have a major problem with SGM pastors & the like who insist that THEY convict us of our sin. They can tell us what they observe, but if the Holy Spirit does not convict, well what ya gonna do? (I know what they did to my wife & me! Even after they finally admitted that the sin they accused us of never happened after all!)
What I propose is, instead of being focused on our own (and others) sins, we fix our eyes on the author and finisher of our faith, that is Jesus, and as we spend our life doing that, we are more aware of the penalty He paid each time we sin and are more and more quick to confess to God, and repent. Eventually we may not commit certain sins anymore, but we will always sin, we have this body of death to deal with.
My problem with SGM is that instead of encouraging each other to good works, SGM has people too focused on each others sin to even get to anything resembling good works. Eventually everyone is beat down or full of pride and you get a sick place called an “SGM church.”
There is a song that is sung in SGM and other churches where the chorus states that we will never know how much sin He covered when Jesus died on the cross. (I can’t recall the exact words.) I disagree theologically with that song. We WILL know, on the day we give an account for our every deed and word. BUT, it will NOT be a time of embarrassment as some have implied. It will be for the purpose of declaring the full extent of the work of Christ on the cross! We will be rejoicing for our CHAMPION!
We should be spending this life learning more and more about our CHAMPION, not our sin. He defeated that sin. Yes we repent each time, but it should be a time for growing closer to HIM, not being beat down by a Pharisee (SGM Pastor, or drone).
It’s all about HIM, JESUS!
If it points to anything else, ……… WRONG ANSWER!!
Go back to JESUS, our CHAMPION.
Sin happens. (It’s so easy.)
I cry out to Jesus. (My Champion. My advocate.)
Defender, 30years, Jim — love the discussion – thanks!!
I was getting ready to send a note to you Jim as to whether our (my) discussions were in line with your blog when you posted a response to 30 and me. There doesn’t seem to be an absence of heavyweights on the site (LOL-not referring to real weight) so there doesn’t seem to be a problem mixing up a bit without offense or taking things personal but I was concerned about some who just need the affirmation, love and comfort.
If there are some guidelines to know please advise as I am pretty new around here.
Irv, what you said was awesome, Brother.
Irv,
I’m really glad that you’re here. We have few guidelines, and from what I’ve read, none would apply to you.
Gents, be nice to the ladies. Everyone, don’t come on here and call my guests bitter, although I may be accused of anything. No heresy.
If someone is bumping the curb, I’ll send them a note, or ask the gang to change the subject.
Although it may come as a surprise, I have some unwritten rules regarding what is said about SGM pastors, but all of that is handled behind the scenes.
I’m a benevolent ruler.
Thanks for asking, Irv.
30years –
I have a couple of questions for you from your post yesterday. You said “when we choose to sin, we are not walking in freedom and grace” Do you really believe that? So if I choose to sin I no longer enjoy the grace and the freedom Christ paid for on the cross?
If that is the case then grace and freedom are depended on my ability to choose not to sin?
If I choose to sin then I can choose not to sin which means that I can live a sinless life based on my right choices. If I am living a sinless life then I am truly experiencing the freedom Christ’s paid for and His grace?
If I continue to follow this train of thought, then I have to obey the law (sinlessness)for favor and righteousness?
Am I tracking with you?
Inquiring minds want to know?
Irv
Irv,
You are nailing it!
(To the Cross, metaphorically speaking.)
I got a “high five” for ya.
Defender
Hello, Irv,
Good question.
I believe that whenI sin, I am not walking in freedom or grace – - in that particular area of my life at that moment. I am still a Christian. I am completely dependant on the Holy Spirit for the power to turn from the temptation of sin. When I choose to give in to those temptations, the Holy Spirit is still with me to show me the error of my ways and to give me the power to turn away, repent, and ask forgiveness.
There is nothing I can do to earn His favor or grace. There is nothing I could ever do that would replace what Jesus has done for me. There is life, joy, and peace in my relationship with Jesus, and I am grateful for all that He freely gives me. Yet, at times I choose to turn away from all of that, and sin. It is His grace alone that leads me back to Himself. He may speak directly to me. He may use scripture, a sermon, a friend, or some particular circumstance. But He leads me back to Himself because He loves me.
In His love and grace, 30
Agreed with you Jim, about the NF Romans 7 thing. Do agree with him on Rom 6, and where it leaves us, we are set free from sin, saints who sin rather than sinners who sin. It’s also wonderful to now be free to disagree on a point with a teacher, and yet still glean from their perspective, which I couldn’t/wouldn’t have before. I also agree w/you, they’re off on Apostleship.
Either way though on Romans 7, the focus is on the resulting freedom. We’re no longer in our sinful state as slaves, “thanks be to God,” we’re free.
It does matter how I consider myself, or Paul would not have instructed, “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Rom. 6:11. and, “For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.” Rom 8:6. It is a choice, how I will consider myself. If I am constantly thinking on my sin, considering myself a “sinner,” how could I follow Paul’s instructions to consider myself dead to sin? If I instead set my mind on the Spirit, there is life and peace.
Here is a link to a short essay by David Wilkerson entitled, “No Longer Slaves”. It was very helpful in understanding my freedom from sin.
http://www.worldchallenge.org/en/node/7958
Hope,
For what it’s worth, I agree with every word you just wrote.
Hope, me too!
I am so enjoying this topic! (OUR FREEDOM IN CHRIST!)
When someone tells me to “Kill my sin” I just want to pop ‘em in the nose. (Give ‘em some sin to go fret over.)
Why would I want to focus my attention on that which is irrelevant to me. Sin has no power over me in God’s court of law.
I would much rather focus my attention on how to conduct myself in my new found freedom. It’s not about “avoiding sin”, it’s about how I express my life in appreciation for my freedom. The result? Possibly a little less sin in my life, but that’s not so much the goal, as is just wanting to please Him who freed me. (In which case I then actually refrain from popping people in the nose.)
It’s always about HIM, not my sin.
Thanks Canary, for that link.
Thanks Hope for the scripture.
Thanks Jim, for the venue.
30 –
I was wondering about the 30years! Does that mean you have been part of PDI/SGM for 30 years or is that your age? Just curious:)
Thanks for your clarity but I am still now sure I have it down yet – am I reading this correctly? “Freedom and grace in your life is dependent on your not sinning? “I believe that when I sin, I am not walking in freedom or grace”
“When I choose to give in to those temptations” – Again, are you able to choose not to give into those temptations and if you are able to make the right choice why would you ever make the wrong choice and fall from grace in that moment?
“There is nothing I can do to earn His favor or grace” If you choose to give into those temptations and fall from grace doesn’t that sound like you can earn his grace by your obedience to not sin or am I misreading that?
“It is grace alone that leads me back” – it sounds like you are cheapening God’s grace by sinning to begin with if you have the ability to choose not to sin.
And now I have additional confusion concerning sins that you commit and might not be aware of them – How does grace and freedom work in that scenario?
Appreciate your help in understanding what you want to communicate!
Irv
You’ve got it, Defender! Jesus has captured our hearts. If we love Him, we do not wish to do anything outside of His will. When our hidden faults and weaknesses (Psalm) get the better of us, who do we run to? Of course we run to God! It is His goodness that leads us to repent in the first place. That truth motivates me to follow Him ever so much more than sin digging could ever do. In this way, I am sanctified without even quite understanding how it is done. I’m more patient, more loving, more giving…because I am becoming like Christ by His Spirit. Less of me, more of Him…
I’m enjoying this topic, too. It’s been a big one for me this past year — and I think for the rest of my life!
Do they teach this at the PC as a guide of what TO do?
http://news.sbts.edu/2010/04/1.....-a-church/
Hello, Irv,
I have been a member of PDI/SGM (CLC) for 30 years.
As a Christian, I am thankful and grateful for my relationship with the living God. On a daily basis, I enjoy His blessings, miracles, His awsome creation, the relationships He has given me, and on and on.
Because of Jesus, I have been set free from the power of sin. I am no longer a slave to sin.
I do not have to sin. Instead, I walk in freedom, grace, love, joy, and a deep sense of peace in my heart. Jesus is they very reason why I live.
With all of that, I am tempted to sin in my thoughts, words and actions. There are times throughout the day when I choose to sin in all of these catagories. If a driver butts in front of me and I call him names, I have sinned. If I think lustful thoughts, I have sinned. I have rejected God’s grace in these moments and chosen my own way of dealing with that situation. Why do I sin? Because at times, I think my way is better than God’s. Or I am looking for some pleasure or satisfaction in something other than God and my relationship with Him.
But when I choose to sin, whether I am aware of it or not, I am still God’s son. His Holy Spirit is still with me. Jesus is still my Lord and Savior. And because I am still His son, He loves me enough to show me my error, and give me the grace to repent and recieve forgiveness.
My only contribution in all of this is my choosing to sin. All of the rest is the work and mercy of the Holy Spirit.
I desire in my heart to demonstrate my love to God by doing His will, by obeying His word, and doing all to glorify Him. In my own strength, I can do none of this. By His spirit, I can. When I fall short by sinning, His holy spirit is there to correct me and keep me on the straight and narrow path.
There is nothing I can do to earn His favor. I simply recieve His love and mercy.
I hope I have answered your questions.
In His grace, 30.
I’ll be the voice of dissent here. I am no fan of SGM as an organization or CJ as a person, but I applaud the two guys who are starting that SGMLetters site. They are thankful for the ministry they have personally received, and they are encouraging others to look for the good in particular pastors who have served them. I am acquainted with Nathan (who is from Metro Life) and have met Tony at least once since he was on a Mission:X team with one of my daughters. They are decent guys. There is a place for their site just as there is a place for SGMRefuge and SGMSurvivors. There is so much good to be celebrated in SGM churches, even if there is plenty of crud mixed in, too. If we want change (and I certainly do!), shouldn’t we be encouraging whatever is already noble, lovely, and true — so that there can be more of it in the future? Surely you don’t believe that God has his hands tied when someone walks into an SGM church? Do you have any faith that God can work here? I do, and I am willing to be proactive about calling for change while at the same time seeking out the evidences of grace that are already here.
I can think of a whole bunch of ways that I appreciate Danny, Benny, Mike, Jesse, Aaron, and Chip at Metro Life — even if they have screwed up and made a bunch of people (including me) very disgruntled. I have my concerns, too, which I have communicated to each of them at various times in person, on the phone, and by e-mail. Last fall, I was quite upset about a number of things related to legalism in the church (not the picky rules kind, but the intense focus on sin mortification and confrontation, especially at last summer’s marriage retreat), and was really tempted to blast them with a strong e-mail. I actually wrote it, but then put it aside for a while. In the meantime, God put it on my heart to start dwelling on a few specific ways in which each of them had blessed my life. So I wrote Appreciating the Pastors of Metro Life Church on my blog. I have also taken the time to communicate with each of them verbally the areas where I think they are doing well. If we don’t want to be ruled by an intense focus on sin and failure, shouldn’t we give them the same courtesy by lifting them up with positive encouragement where it is due? I am not talking about flattery, just honest gratitude — the kind we all need.
In addition to this, in the past week I have committed myself to praying for each of my pastors, their wives, and their ministries at Metro Life. I can’t even imagine trying to do what they do, and the burdens they need to bear. I pray for one each day, that God will pour out his grace, mercy, and wisdom into their lives. Our loving LORD specializes in bringing beauty out of ashes, and pouring forth the oil of joy to replace of a spirit of heaviness.
I write pretty consistently on grace, legalism, and abuse of authority issues, not only as I see it in SGM, but in the home schooling movement as well. Some of the articles I have written in the past several months include:
Joyful Liberty! (my testimony of finding my identity and joy in Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit)
Pure Pleasure: Why Do Christians Feel So Bad About Feeling Good? (a review of Gary Thomas’s newest book)
True Repentance (It’s a Very Good Thing!) (based on a Facebook post by Jesse)
Do It Well, But Keep It Humble (for home schooling families)
Child Discipline or Child Abuse? (also deals with authority and control issues)
Tender Compassion for Mothers (touches on control and legalism in families)
Help for Hurting Marriages (partly on the sin focus issue)
Well by now, anybody who already knows me has guessed who I am (and I have had my blog linked to the name MetroStill in my last few comments anyway), so I will sign off here:
Virginia Knowles
While I was writing my last post, the ones that other people wrote about SGMLetters disappeared. So mine might be a little confusing, if it even makes it past moderation!
MetroStill,
I dumped the references to the letters blog because if they get any traffic, it won’t come from here. I’m not even sure if the guys are serious. When I first read it, I thought, “this must be tongue in cheek”.
I’m very much in favor of showing appreciation to our fellow believers who we love. The pastor worship in SGM is over the top, and is a part of the culture they’ve created which separates “clergy and laity”. The way they view themselves is unbiblical, and is the root of the problems with sgm. It informs their polity, which will make significant change very hard to accomplish.
The few situations that have afforded me a birds eye view into pastoral repentance have shown me something significant. Although repentance eventually occurred, it became obvious to me that the pastors involved were slower to repent than most believers I know.
I can’t promote an effort that will further convince these men that they are over, above, special, or different than us lowly sheep. The mindset is unbiblical and must die before anything changes.
WW’s 6:02 post was brilliant.
I’d ask all sgm members to consider this-are your pastors a part of the church or apart from the church?
I agree. The link to the SBTS blog is very good. Makes you wonder if SGM friend Mr. Mohler has compared this to anything he may have heard about SGM.
Jim,
I greet my pastors in the grocery store the same way I do any other church member. We sit at the same table at the youth banquet. We attend our sons’ ballgames together and coach their basketball games together. We stand side by side in prayer on Sunday morning prior to the service and then stand side by side in worship and praise of the Lord. We attend camp together. At the end of camp, we clean kitchens and bathrooms. I can list many other activities and other interaction with these men.
They look, dress, and talk no differently than anyone else I know.
For the most part, they do full time what the rest of us do part time. They are no more special than anyone else at CLC. We have physicians, lawyers, musicians, business owners, photographers, nurses, carpenters, electricians, and pastors. No one is more significant in the eyes of the Lord than anyone else. Myself and the folks at CLC that I know would also agree. I can’t speak for every member. There may be those who treat these guys as celebrities, but on the whole, I know of no one who worships the pastors at CLC.
Jim, how are you able to determine that pastor worship is over the top at SGM? This is a heart issue and I don’t see how you can conclude this.
I read the cover letter on the “letters” blog. They explained in great detail what they are about and what their motives are. I experience on a daily basis what those guys wrote, and believe they are sincere in their desire to obey God and His word in this project.
We haven’t been back to a “church” for years, but are getting excited about one in particular that seems to be really grace alone. I am hopeful.
G.D., that is exciting for you and your family. It isn’t even the church part I’m talking about, but the fact that you are ready to get out there again. A tremendous amount of healing has happened for you to get this far. So cool!
Jim, I resent my email. Could you check? Thanks.
Having read 30years post, I will stand with Jim on the pastor/celebrity thing. It did happen. It does happen. Granted, we must also look at our own hearts as to why we put them on such high pedestals, but it was so much of the PDI culture that it is hard to decide who was responsible.
A person having been part of the same organization for 30 years must have a place of familiarity with the pastors that many others do not share. It has to be hard to be objective if one has been around for that long.
30, I’m continually amazed that your experience is across the board so radically different from what I’ve personally seen, and what I’ve heard from hundreds of people.
______, what you wrote resonates with me. I remember, especially near the end of our time at SGM, thinking to myself, “you don’t really fit here; when will you be really honest with yourself?” Yes, you have established some relationship, but are they real; will they endure without the walls of this SG “church?”
I remember standing in the foyer area after one of the meetings feeling lonely although in a crowd of hundreds. I felt so weird and out of place. I remember trying to connect with the Sr. Pastor, after I disagreed with him on what God wanted me to do and my “giftings!” He wanted more out of me; God wanted less. I sensed some attitudes of “shunning” from him, although very subtle. I remember how well he was able to look through me to someone much more willing to comply with the man in the very stead of God. I remember trying to talk with him, only to be ignored with a smile.
Although that time was painful, it was liberating, and caused us to hear the voice of Him who matters, directing us out–thankfully. We haven’t been back to a “church” for years, but are getting excited about one in particular that seems to be really grace alone. I am hopeful.
Canary, thanks as always for your caring words. We walk forward with reservations and excitement all wrapped up in one.
Hi 30,
Re: your 6:18 post this morning.
I am encouraged to see you expressing an understanding of your freedom in Christ and how to commune with Him individually for your own growth by the Holy Spirit.
Question:
How does that jibe with your pastor at your SG church?
Okay, more questions:
Does your pastor know you are free from your sin, or does he still tell you that you need to “kill it”?
Does your pastor try to tell you how to live your life, or does he let you get instructions of that kind from God directly, from the Holy Spirit?
Does your pastor know you think more highly of the Holy Spirit’s guidance than his?
If so, how does he respond???
These questions strike at the heart of our problems we have with SGM’s polity.
I am hopeful for you, my brother.
I can be hopeful for SGM too, but only when they become honest about, and correct their dishonest polity.
Blessings to you,
Defender
G.D.,
I had my anxieties about my Easter church visit. I expected to be afraid, but was surprised not to encounter that ole’ monster as I stepped into the high school where the church was meeting (full circle!). All my worries were as nothing compared to God’s faithfulness. He had changed me. I wasn’t the same person that left PDI nearly 14 years ago. I’ll bet you and your wife have a similar experience. It is liberating indeed! I wanna pray for you both when the time comes, okay?
Last Sunday one of our elders came to our Christian Education (“Sunday School”) class to answer questions anyone had regarding changes that weere being made. Clear communication, clear answers and a very clear statement that the elders recognized the primary responsibility of the Pastor is caring for the congregation. They want to ensure he is freed from administrative responsibilites so he can care for the church by preaching, hospital visitation, teaching, – basically spending time with people. What a difference! I am in a church of about 600 members and have a pastor who is accessible as compared to my SGM church where there were about 75 members (including many kids) and the pastor was virtually unavailable. If you approached him about getting together you would receive a response that he has some time in a month and a half. He could have been meeting daily with the church, encouraging them and discipling them, but was always busy not meeting with people.
Canary, yes absolutely. Pray that we will walk with discernment and openness, free to embrace the TRUTH in a corporate setting. We are thankful for renewed anticipation.
G D from SGM — You’re in my prayers!
Thanks Square Peg. We really appreciate it.
30, I’m continually amazed that your experience is across the board so radically different from what I’ve personally seen, and what I’ve heard from hundreds of people.
Jim,
Now you know how I feel, and why I occasionally post, when I read these outrageous claims made about all of SGM.
Did hundreds of people confess to you that they participated in “pastor worship”?
I did. My husband did, along with many people around us. The pastor worship was so obvious and so pitiful, now that I look back on it.
…and just to think you were in the elite group all along, being His son, adopted into His family. He is welcoming, approachable, and never too busy or preoccupied. Amazing Love, how can it be?
30-I haven’t kept detailed notes of records of the hundreds of conversations I’ve had on the phone and via email since we launched.
You also know how I feel and why this blog exists. I don’t consider the claim of pastor worship to be outrageous at all.
30 years, there are some things you just know. Like I just know that Abba is alive and loves me. Not everyone agrees; I just know. When I look at the trees outside, I know who is behind the new fresh green growth for another season. I watch the rain fall and just know that my Father is taking care of the cycles of life. When I look deeply into a baby’s eye, I see the Master behind that brand new life. Everyone doesn’t agree–I just know.
When people clamor over their pastor, and seek an audience with him and go on and on and applaud them almost to rock star status–you just know. When they protect the leadership blindly when they are dead wrong. When they will believe NOTHING is wrong with SGM when there is objective evidence to the contrary, I just kind of know. Know what I mean 30 years? By the way, shouldn’t it be 31 years now?
30,
Re: “pastor worship”.
The system is set up such that you have to make a conscious decision to NOT give inappropriate, almost gushing, honor, such that it is practically worship of the pastor.
Let me give an example:
It was back in the mid-late 90′s at FCC (Fairfax) and it happened to be that a high ranking member of the Virginia Home school Association was also a member of FCC. The annual home school convention was usually held down in Richmond, but this one years convention was held at FCC. So convenient for the Northern Virginia people.
I had one of those “Ah Ha” moments when during the time of the convention or shortly thereafter, I was listening to the radio show “The Bible Answer Man,” and a caller called in to ask if PDI were a cult. Why ask? This caller had attended the convention in it’s new venue, and was taken back by the continuous and nearly identical comments from members of FCC about Benny, the senior pastor. This woman was not used to hearing people in a church put their pastor on such a “high pedestal.” (Her words “high pedestal.”)
I remembering cringing at that comment because I knew it was true. I had seen it also, but chose to ignore it, and at the most, I would “question the motives in a person’s heart” for how they practically worshiped Benny. (To use the SGM vernacular.)
I did not at that time think that PDI were a cult, but was disappointed that people would act in such a way to let others think that.
So, 30, it goes way back.
AND, you can’t possibly count the hundreds of people who participated, in all the PDI/SGM churches, around the world, over the years.
They don’t necessarily have to “Confess” it, for it to have been “observed”.
That’s my 2 cents….
30 Years
If you look at how Mahaney teaches the passage in Hebrews 13 that the people setting up the blog quote and who basically “parrott” what Mahaney teaches sets up the group for pastor worship.
Mahaney either never took the time or doesn’t want to know what the real meaning of the passage in Greek actually means. It is more of a be convinced by the leaders vs. the blindly obey that SGM teaches.
Hi 30 –
Thanks again for another response to my questions. As a quick observation, It doesn’t seem to me that what you believe about yourself, sin, grace and freedom etc. are defined in such a way in your heart and mind that you are able to speak (write) with great conviction but I leave that with you and the Lord.
I will say this though – you have no real understanding why you sin but you do have reasons why you sin. Until you understand the why you will never be free despite your testimony. I think my words sounds harsh but that is not my heart or the spirit in which I say them!!
Perhaps we can talk some day so that I can catch your spirit and heart.
30 years is a long time with any group and I totally understand your loyalty. It is difficult for me to believe that you haven’t seen the things that ‘real’ people share on this site but there you go!! Methinks that what you don’t see is more or less intentional but in your heart of hearts you know!!
God bless!!
Defender,
Interesting observation and reminder of how normal believers view SGM.
30 years: I did, in SGM, and actively attempted to draw friends into the superiority of tactics, techniques and lifestyles of an SGM pastor.
I never did outside of it, either before or after.
I believe you. But do believe us when the sum of our experiences mean that the vast majority of pastor-laypeople relations in SGM do not seem to be what you describe as a “average man to average man” experience at all.
I see lots of sin, error, unkindness, at CLC. We are Christian saints who sin. But I also see an overwhelming abundance of good fruit here. 31 years worth.
I have seen folks who are overly enthusiastic, zealous, excited when they talk of their pastors. But worship? Maybe in an isolated moment here and there? For some, perhaps an on-going thing?
I have explained in great detail how I relate to my pastors. I love them, I am grateful for what they do, hundreds have been blessed by them, but I don’t worship them. Suppose there are hundreds at CLC like me, who know in their hearts that they do not worship their pastors? How could you know? The folks I know do not worship their pastors. We worship Jesus.
You say I’m blind, I say you are assuming, without any evidence, that pastor worship exists among the majority of SGM. You are pointing fingers at a group of brothers and sisters in Christ and telling 9,000 people that we worship these men. I honestly do not see how you know what is in the hearts of the folks at SGM in order to make such a serious claim.
You know, I feel at times like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I post here. I’m sorry you had bad experiences at your former SGM church. Your experience was completely opposite of mine. I come on here to bring a different perspective in order to provide perhaps a little understanding, or some reconcilliation, and because I care about you. I really am here to help in some way.
About 25 years ago, I was apart of the worship band. The standard dress for those on the stage was suit and tie. For some reason, I decided one Sunday to wear a nice sweater instead of a sport coat. A couple days later, I recieved a 2-page letter from a pastor explaining the error of my ways. I was shocked. Oh my God, what have I done! The next time i saw him, I appologized for breaking dress code and explained that I was not intentionally rebelling. He accepted my appology and all was forgiven.
I shared this with the kids recently and we laughed hysterically.
But what was that? Some controlling pastor with too much time on his hands? What kind of crazy place is this? It was a nice sweater. Well, I know the pastor and I know what was in his heart, what his intent was. He was simply doing what he believed the Lord was leading him to do at the time. And he was doing it with excellence and completeness. He was doing his part to maintain a particular standard of excellence. He was doing all to glorify God.
Since then, there has been growth, maturity, and changes in the way things are done. But the goal remains unchanged – to glorify God in all we do. (and if you wore a suit on stage today, you would look a little conspicuous).
Blind? No. Believe the best? Yes. I do not ignore reality. I deal with it head-on by God’s grace and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for listening, in His grace, …………. 31
Oh my goodness. 2 pages because of a sweater, but it’s cool, because he thought that he was being led by God. After all, he was a pastor, and they have a special relationship with God, hearing from Him on behalf of His Bride.
Except when they’re wrong.
Perhaps relevant to your discussion about saints and sinners? (spam link to suck up to your sgm pastors blog removed-Jim)
Jim,
Their relationship is no more special than mine. Yes, it is cool, because I believe he was doing what God wanted him to do. He is a Christian, called to provide some leadership, embracing that calling and making decisions that affect the entire church.
It was a very simple rule. A standard. And he was using his God-given authority to enforce that standard. They wanted to honor God in that way. Not to earn anything or impress anyone, but to honor God. And I broke the rule. I could wear that sweater anytime I want, except at that time.
30, God did not give your pastors they authority they continually claim. That is the primary error in sgm. Their authority comes from man, not God. They took it for themselves, and impose it upon the flock.
Don’t get me started…
To the guys with the St Pete “I love my pastors” blog.
Feel free to post anything you like here, but leave out the link to your blog. You’ll receive no traffic from this venue.
Thanks.
The Sweater Issue: The suit/tie thing policy wasn’t about honoring God — it was about impressing PEOPLE. Our SGM church had a similar policy: If a man was to be “up front” on stage, preaching, worship team, etc — he was expected to wear a shirt and tie. And it was explained that the reason was because we looked so “different” in so many other ways (meeting in a school, no hymns, no Sunday School, and I might add, no elders nor deacons…) that “we” wanted to at least LOOK respectble as people.
Somewhere along the way, the rule got changed. Good thing they didn’t originally say it was because they were “honoring God” with shirts and ties — otherwise, taking them off would be “dishonoring God.” Sheesh.
Uh, 30 (31),
Re: your comment April 22nd, 2010 at 6:42 am
“You know, I feel at times like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs when I post here. I’m sorry you had bad experiences at your former SGM church. Your experience was completely opposite of mine. I come on here to bring a different perspective in order to provide perhaps a little understanding, or some reconcilliation, and because I care about you. I really am here to help in some way.”
EXCUSE ME?!?!
You are like the ignorant idiot who approaches someone who is in deep depression and pain and says “Cheer up!”I’m having a great day! Whoo Hoo! Look at me! I’m Happy!”
When you post idiotic $hi…….Crap …. like that I want to scream.
Just how do expect to bring reconciliation? Do you have access to SS? (Watch that dagger he wields.) When you approach him about the heresy he proclaimed in defense of SGM, (If you do,) prepare to join our ranks with the other wounded.
Many of us had similar “good” experiences to yours, until…..we didn’t. In many cases, by no fault of our own by the way.
We will forgive you for your incredible ignorance, (Hell, I forgive you now, but I’m still gonna give you a whipping for it.)
How’s your tail??
With tough love,
-De(friggin)fender
(I’m going cat hunting for a while….)
Defender, you can have my kitty. I don’t want him anymore.
30 – I did have to chuckle at your first line — “I see lots of sin, error, unkindness, at CLC. We are Christian saints who sin” — there is no question you would see lots of sin, error and unkindness — it is what you have been trained to do. But trust me it is not a laughing matter.
I totally get your 30 years have been so good because you are so pliable and have such a desire to please you will obey whatever. One of the best sellers in PDI for years was “Spiritual Authority” by Watchman Nee – I think it was required reading at some point. One of the “principles” taught by Nee was this “The degree in which you submit to your spiritual authority is the degree in which you are submitted to God” (my paraphrase).
It appears you are totally submitted to God!!
a 2 page letter, about a sweater
because a man made rule was broken
a man of god does not make
but a defender of the poor,the widow ,
the downtrodden,the deplored
can be trusted to lead you to the shepherds gate