I quit reading CJ’s blog over a year ago, but with the start of the Winter Olympics, I was looking for some advice, ala CJ’s annual “tips for watching the Superbowl”.
No such luck, but I did find a recent post by Dave Harvey, that included the following statement:
The function fulfilled by men following in Paul’s (and Timothy’s, and Silas’s, and Epaphras’s, etc.) footsteps is primarily missiological, not ecclesiological. The accent rests on gospel mission, not church maintenance. And the specific expression of that mission is church planting. “[Paul’s] more functional understanding of apostleship,” says Gordon Fee, “would certainly have its modern counterparts in those who found and lead churches in unevangelized areas.”
Is this a new view, or have I not been paying attention?
February 13th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Jim -
“Is this a new view?” Depends. What does DH and SGM mean by “unevangelized areas”? SG past and most immediate activity would indicate that by this they don’t mean pioneer missions. The corp website shows the most recent church plants are in the DC, Philly, Phoenix, Orange County CA, and Sydney Australia locales. Not only are these areas NOT unevangelized, they are NOT even without one or more SG churches within an hour or so for the new US locations. Do pagans and irreligious peoples live in these areas? Sure. Are these areas without a Gospel witness? Surely NOT. While they may benefit from gospel proclamation, they are hardly unevangelized.
Maybe SG will roll out a plan to take the Gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. For that I would rejoice and give thanks. Maybe this is more of the same. What think ye?
Former SG Pastor
February 15th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Jim,
There is no change in polity because there is no change in their understanding of apostolic authority:
“…the church is called to identify, send, and support those graced specifically to extend the apostolic mission. Such men are called and gifted by God to provide leadership for mission and to orchestrate the planting of churches. Just because a man is a great pastor, or a great preacher, or a great evangelist, or a great leader doesn’t mean he is called to this apostolic function. But if a man can theologize, strategize, mobilize, and organize with a view to where the gospel hasn’t gone, then maybe we need to set him apart to do just that.”
Use of the terms “graced specifically” and “maybe” mean not very often and not you or me. SGM’s lack of response to the biblical imperative for pioneer missions has always been excused by the lack of “gifted and called apostles” in their ranks who are ready to do it. Granted, there have always been plenty of those people in the ranks of SGM churches, but they have never recognized them and that oversight will probably continue.
There is a suggestion of the need to change the focus of “mission”:
“But here is the challenge: It would seem like the church’s mission ministry could function more scripturally, and therefore more strategically, if it were married to a biblical vision for this apostolic function.”
My guess is that if they ever try pioneer missions again, they will do it in partnership with established, reform minded ministries rather than developing people internally. They are still where they were 20 years ago: no one in senior leadership with pioneer missions experience and totally blind to the possibility that the gifted men they seek are already right in front of them.
So, possible change in scope, no change in polity.
February 15th, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Jim:
I also rarely read CJ’s blog because it just seems to be a forum for him to post one ingratiating interview with various reformed leaders. (The only interview I really liked was the one with Kevin Deyoung because Mr. Deyoung came across as genuinely humble) but I digress.
I have to agree that Harvey’s statement does not seem to signal any great shift in polity in light of the following rather lenthy quote from Jeff Purswell. See the highlighted text in black. I am strongly in favor of more expostional preaching in the church today because there is little of it in contemporary evangelicalism but the highligted text underscores Greg’s point about finding men who strategize, mobilize and enviision people from missions. Namely, if SGM is training its pastors (and not just the senior pastors) to place most of their working time on study and message preparation and then after that they have to attend to the ongoing issues in the day to day life of a church, there is going to precious little time “theologize, strategize, mobilize, and organize with a view to where the gospel hasn’t gone” I think Purswell’s quote probably reveals more about the overall vision and aspiriations and missiology oF SGM than Harvey’s quote does.
Honestly, when I think about Purswell’s quote, I think SGM is really just raising up academics as pastors rather than true leaders capable of leading people to other places.
“Although it’s impossible to know which facet of the contemporary church would look strangest to our hypothetical historical observer, let me nominate one for consideration: the modern paradigm of “pastor as leader.” Tracing its exact roots is difficult, but we can generally surmise that modern business theory, mediated through the church growth movement, is the source of this paradigm—a paradigm that would be unintelligible to our time-travelling friend.
It’s true, of course, that in a very real sense a pastor (along with his fellow elders) is the leader of his congregation. Scripture envisions elders who “rule well” (1 Timothy 5:17) and calls them to “exercise oversight” (1 Peter 5:2) and to employ diligently the gift of leadership (Romans 12:8). And so pastoral ministry inherently involves certain leadership functions: inspiring the church with a biblical vision, administrating the work of the church, training leaders who can help lead the work, creating structures that capture and embody the application of the truth that is taught from the pulpit. Pastors not only teach the truth, but also come alongside their flock to help people apply truth to their lives.
We deviate from Scriptural precept and historical example, however, when a pastor’s role as “leader” displaces his primary role as a teacher—a shepherd who feeds God’s people with the truth of his Word. The relentless call to pastors in the New Testament is to the ministry of the Word, from the apostles’ retirement from mercy ministry (Acts 6:1–4) to Paul’s dying words to Timothy (2 Timothy 4:2).
I doubt anyone reading this would reject the content of the previous paragraph. My concern is rather with a false dichotomy that I fear is all too common: a dichotomy in the pastor’s mind between “teaching” and “leadership.” In the pulpit or behind the podium, we’re “teaching;” anywhere else, we’re “leading.” My modest goal in this post is to destroy this dichotomy. There is no more powerful or fundamental expression of a pastor’s leadership than the preaching of the Word. At its core, that’s what biblical leadership is: setting forth for our people a biblical vision of God and his purposes, and then calling them to give their lives to it and live in light of it (and outside the pulpit, modeling for them what it looks like). Every time we preach, we’re making room for God to lead his people, allowing his Word to set direction, to impart encouragement, to provide comfort, and to instill faith. Much more is happening on a Sunday morning than the mere transfer of information. This is our key leadership moment.
When we think about “leading” our churches, we can spend hours with our teams strategizing and brainstorming initiatives and structures, identifying emphases, and planning special meetings—all important functions. But we can spend hours doing all this and leave the Sunday preaching diet entirely out of the equation—when it should be central to whatever direction you’re providing the church in a particular season.
No form of leadership a pastor provides is more decisive than his proclamation of Scripture. Preaching both defines the priorities for your church and fuels the implementation of those priorities in the church. We must never sever the connection in our minds between leadership—providing direction for the church—and your preaching plan. It’s that preaching plan, and its execution, that provide the most powerful and biblically rooted leadership. And I’m not just speaking about the “leadership opportunity” on any given Sunday. The preaching diet over a period of time will be the most formative, shaping influence on a church.
If all this is true, what then? If you’re a senior pastor, then nothing you do this week is more important than, nor should it supplant, your prayerful preparation for the preaching of God’s Word. If you serve on a pastoral team with a specialized sphere of ministry, you should be thinking about how the Sunday preaching can be applied in the life of the church in your sphere. If you’re a member of a church, there is no more important moment for you than when you sit under the teaching of God’s Word, hearing his voice, and receiving direction for your life as a part of your church. “
February 16th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
formersgmer,
Thanks for the quote. Purswell’s view is totally ingrown and highlights another significant barrier to shifting toward a more biblical focus for apostolic ministry as noted by Harvey.
The closest we can come to understanding the pastoral experience of the first century can be seen in the persecuted church in most of the world. SGM has never been there, so they wouldn’t know. Most missionaries and underground pastors do not have the luxury of role differentiation. They teach, evangelize, counsel, baptize, bury members, plant churches (often at a fantastic rate), and support themselves at the same time, working seven days a week. They are driven by a passion for the lost and obedience to God. They have little time or interest in hair splitting over church structure. That is a uniquely western obsession.
SGM pastors do not strategized about planting churches because the are told it is not their job, and they do not care enough to buck the system. Maybe a bit of persecution or poverty would help.
February 19th, 2010 at 8:38 am
FSGP, I would rejoice if they first started preaching the true gospel in their churches…I wouldn’t want their current brand of ‘good news’ going out into the world.
February 19th, 2010 at 11:43 am
EXCELLENT point, Julie.
February 20th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
I got to share the good news with my youngest daughter (15) the other night. She is not a “pdi” baby. We left when she was two. Consequently, she did not grow up in Sunday school, etc. M has a very thoughtful mind, and will reason things out. Anyway, she came to me a few nights ago with questions, and we talked into the wee hours.
I have prayed so much for M. I have tried to be Jesus in her life. When we were talking, I could see her beginning to believe, right before my eyes. What I shared had substance because I live it. We talked about good and evil, about how to hear God speak to us (specifically through His word), and what M’s purpose is on this earth. We covered the topic of the sinful nature, but spent alot of time on God’s love and desire to walk with her in this life. It was simply the most beautiful thing that has happened to me in a long time, to watch my youngest soften, to hear her inner most secrets, to even have her confess a wrongdoing and receive forgiveness.
The reason I’m sharing this: in the old ways, I was taught to share the gospel in a point to point fashion. It was never successful, at least in the way I followed it. This was different. How? Because it was REAL. I’ve prayed so much for my daughter, laying a foundation of pleading for God’s grace. I asked that He would draw her to Himself. There was no “religion” involved, simply a desire for God’s goodness to lead her to repentance.
We have a ways to go. I look forward to the adventure. I wondered if anyone else is finding, as they walk in freedom, that they are sharing the good news with much more heart and power than before. This might be the key to why there were very few new converts to the pdi/sgm churches I attended, why church plants turn out to be church poaches, at least in our neck of the woods. Food for thought…
February 20th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Oh Canary, how wonderful. I rejoice with you! And will continue praying for your baby.
February 20th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Thank you, Gracie. You are a faithful friend. I have to say that my heart is still full of deep joy over the talk with my girl, deeper joy in how the Lord brought it all about. “You and your household shall be saved!”
February 20th, 2010 at 8:47 pm
Oh Canary, what joy to get to watch God’s hand at work this way. I’m happy for you.
February 20th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Thank you, Stunned. The people on this blog have help to give me godly perspective and embolden my faith. Thank you all!!
February 20th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Trying my best NOT to make this a mutual admiration society, but honestly Canary, you have been such a gift in this part of my life. God has used your kindness, gentleness and love to bring healing and encouragement to me.
Thank you,
S
February 21st, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Stunned,
Group Hug!!!
February 21st, 2010 at 12:56 pm
Hope, Did you get my email???
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:47 am
Hey, I want in on the hugs and mutual admiration! Thanks for sharing that, how beautiful.
Sent one last night.
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Don’t know if we are allowed to get mushy on the polity site…hee-hee. But here is a hug for Hope, who will not be left out! {{{{{{{Hope}}}}}}}
February 25th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Knock-knock. Hello? Is anybody home? Are we having a moment of silence? Is this blog working? Testing, testing, one, two, three. Ha – just kiddin’ with ya. I miss the chatter!
February 25th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Yeah, I check in and thought the blog died!
February 26th, 2010 at 12:31 am
Hey G.D.!
I’m chewing on some birdseed whilst I wait for the next installment. Hope you are doing well!
February 26th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Hi there Canary,
We are doing well, considering the normal aches and pains on this journey. I am really surprised at the ghost-town feeling of late.
How about you and yours? I see remain free on top of the cage. That is a good sign!
February 26th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
G.D., We are all doing well in our bird nest out west. Freedom rings! I hope the aches and pains ease in your family real soon. There is a purpose for it all!
February 26th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Canary, You are so right, and we rest in that purpose, knowing that He doesall things well and from a heart of love and infinite wisdom.
February 26th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
You bet. We’ve learned that the hard way! The hard lessons are the ones that stick the most…
March 11th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Hello all, I empathize with the frustrations. In Matthew 18:15-17 Jesus is clear about how we are to address our concerns with fellow believers who have offended/hurt us: “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” And, if the SGM people are truly as sinful, wicked and deceptive as people are claiming, then Jesus also says in Mark 2:17 “…it is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Jesus also says, in Luke 7:31,32,35,36,41,46: “Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same…but love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful just as your Father is merciful…why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?…why do you call Me ‘LORD, LORD’ and do not do what I say?” And lastly, Jesus says in Luke 17:4 “And if he sins against you seven times, saying ‘I repent,’ forgive him.’” Our LORD is merciful to us and He wants us as His children to resolve matters in a way that bring Him glory as mentioned above. Please pray about SGM and the people who have hurt or offended you and seek a way to Biblically resolve your issues by talking with an elder on staff if possible as soon as possible. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” I have had to talk to various elders of various churches about my offenses/hurts and the resolution has often been peaceful and fruitful as I prayed for wisdom about how to approach them, repented of my own sin and humbly set up a time to meet with them, speaking the truth in love. God has called us to be Ambassadors for Christ so let’s yield to His conviction and obey His way of handling disputes as noted in His Holy Word. James 5 has great wisdom too. Our sins nailed Jesus to the cross, we are all sinners worthy of death but Jesus in His mercy came to die on the cross, carrying our sin on His shoulders and suffered the death that we should have suffered so that we can have a new life with Him on earth-edifying each other and glorifying God that we don’t deserve with the gift of spending eternity with Him in heaven. All of us are sinners who need forgiveness, mercy and justification. Thank God for His patience with us in our sinful patterns, wrong deeds and words. God have mercy on us. Romans 10:8,9
March 11th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Hi Dlight,
This blog is Matt 18. I can’t speak for all of our guest, but I personally followed steps one and two.
This blog is step three.
March 11th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
My husband and I followed steps one and two as best we could. Unfortunately, the pastor in question did not listen openly or welcome our questions/input. He has of late been “shanked”, and I pray for him.
I agree with Jim that this blog has been “telling it to the church”. Just because we are outspoken about our experiences does not mean we are bitter, angry, hurt, etc. Many of us are past that point. The ones that still experience these emotions can get help here to work through them to freedom. So, this blog both serves as a call to reform and a place of refuge for those who have had conflict with sgm.
If I might correct one thing you said: we do not think all of sgm is sinful, evil, or anything of the like. We simply state that their polity leads to abuses that hurt the saints. It has also been stated here many times that not all pastors in sgm participate in the abuses we mention.
March 11th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
To correct myself: we do not think all of sgm is sinful, wicked, or deceptive – to quote Dlight.
March 11th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
DLIGHT-
Here’s one to consider
1 Timothy 5:20-21
March 11th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Dlight -
Like Jim and Canary, I tried Mt 18 with my pastor and others in my former church. The result? They ran to the local apostle! So I approached the local apostle to continue with the Mt 18. The result? He and the local pastor and leadership decided Mt 18 did not apply!
When you have pastors, apostles, and others in leadership who won’t even do the first step in Mt 18, it is challenging to go further. BTW, if the old apostle and local leaders are reading this (they used to read the blogs), I am still open to following Mt 18 to resolve our conflicts. Alas, for you it has been easier to gossip and spread false reports than to follow the Scriptures. So I’ll keep warning people away from SGM whenever the opportunities occur.
Former SG Pastor
March 11th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
We tried too. Followed the steps just as we were taught by our leaders. It got us kicked out.
March 11th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
It sounds like Dlight really thinks the SGM Leaders are open to criticism and correction. Most of these leaders put on this front but few if any actually are.
Dlight
I would suggest you read through this blog and the sgmsurvivors.com blog to read stories of people what their experience was with SGM Leaders.
At least now SGM Leaders can’t do as much as they use to do with immunity. They now risk their actions being posted here or on the sgmsurvivors blog and at times thewartburgwatch.com.
Maybe one days your eyes will open.
March 12th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Please pray about SGM and the people who have hurt or offended you and seek a way to Biblically resolve your issues by talking with an elder on staff if possible as soon as possible.
Dlight – I’m curious, how do you reconcile it in your head that so many have replied respectfully to say that SGM LEADERS are the ones who are/were not willing to Biblically resolve issues? I can tell you in my case that 3 families implored and repeatedly asked the Sr. Pastor to meet on the basis of Mt. 18 and he REFUSED. Is that Biblical?
God bless you. I’m glad you know your Scriptures. I wonder if you have ever had to use them in bringing “observations” of sin or offense to a man on the payroll of an SGM church.
If I could bring an observation by the way, according to Ephesians 2:4-6 we were sinners who needed justification but NOW we are new creations in Christ Jesus.
March 13th, 2010 at 8:35 am
Dlight,
You made me laugh about going to “various elders” That is a good one. When did the “various elders” pop up in your church.
Instead of Matt 18, I should have called the police..
What is done in the dark my friend will come out in DEE LIGHT.
March 13th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
What is done in the dark my friend will come out in DEE LIGHT.
Very witty, Charlie! And I agree – there were no “elders” in the two sgm churches I attended either. By elders, I mean the sort represented in scripture, chosen by the brethren, not the “apostles”.
March 30th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Hey everybody,
I know that this isn’t the site it is posted at, but wanted to nip this in the bud before it happens here to.
Someone posted as if they were me on survivors. It caused a lost of pain. It wasn’t me. So, if you’ve read that post in History in the Making, read what the most recent post says. Whoever this was should seriously come out and apologize. I cried as I read renee’s responses.
Thanks again for your kindness.
March 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Chad I’m really sorry someone has done this to you as well as to the rest.
Did you check with Guy to see if they even used your email address?
If so, that would seem to narrow down to your address book who usurped your identity.
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Hi folks and Jim:
I have tried numerous times at the SGM website and store to find the Sovereign Grace Perspectives series booklets written by Dave Harvey:
“Missiology: Entering the Field of the Lord”
“Am I Called? Discerning the Summons to Ministry”
“Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church.”
Dead ends on finding them. Also, when you go to an SGM church website that links to them, the link is a dead end as well!
Have they canned these booklets? If so, and more importantly, will we ever get a reason why?
If this is a spackling job and they plan on repairing the scholarship of these booklets without giving public notice or at least notice to the SGM churches, how is this different from the actions of historical revisionists?
If you are a member of a SGM church, ask your pastor why they are no longer available.
–jw
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:58 pm
PK,
Change is here to stay.
I just hope that this time we hear something like, “we were wrong.”
April 3rd, 2010 at 9:53 pm
PK -
I noticed the booklets disappeared a while back, too. I have a copy of “Polity” which I refer to from time to time just to ensure that I haven’t been dreaming things. Many controversial MP3s get taken down from SG sites as well. Seems like any media that gets mulled over on the blogs can vanish.
Jim/All -
I’m wondering what changes will be announced at the SG meetings that occur the evening and morning prior to the first T4G sessions …
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
April 3rd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
Pastor Former…did your T4G invite get lost in the mail? ;o)
PK – If ONLY once in a while something that WAS so biblical and somehow isn’t anymore would EVER get explained our announced as such!
Change is understandable in a big dynamic corporation.
But when every policy is considered so biblical how can change shift so easily and with so little accountability?
sigh. if only. I feel your pain.
April 4th, 2010 at 12:16 am
Chad –
I’m truly sorry someone did that to you. (Oh, if you only knew just how well I understand what it feels like to have someone mess with your identity online!) I know now my responses were to “fake” Chad, so it grieves me to think that I and others were led to believe that was you, even briefly. A cruel trick on you, Chad. I hope the person will come forward, but my experience of late has left me somewhat hopeless about people’s ability to apologize or reconcile. I hope you will receive better in that department than your fellow Christians on these sites have received from SGM. I really do.
Thank you for clarifying the situation. I am sorry for your pain, for the wrong someone did you.
April 5th, 2010 at 9:54 am
Chad,
They made it clear over at Survivors that it wasn’t you (different IP addy and everything.) I can only imagine the pain and embarassment of being misrepresented online.
Believe it or not, I like to think the best of people and I believe that it wasn’t you and I’m pretty sure I’m not alone.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to make sure everyone knows that it wasn’t you flinging the feces around, however, I appreciate that.
PK, it’s a pleasure to read your posts again, I really enjoy your contributations even though we often view the world through different lenses.
And happy Easter a day late to everyone.
April 5th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Defended – “lost in the mail” – ROFL! Thanks, I needed that!
PK – “Polity” is still viewable online via scribd. One of my favorite lines comes on page 49 under the heading “Apostolic Job Descriptions”. There the apostle is described as “Commissioned by the Ascended Christ …” Makes me want to ask “Who does the decommissioning?”, among other things.
It was at T4G08 we learned that Brent was apparently decommissioned. What news will T4G10 bring?
Not really all that curious,
Former SG Pastor
April 5th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Pastor Former, I’m SURE that Defender and I would have a grand time and lots of laughs with you and your Mrs. sharing some chips, and a (hard) Lemonade…talking over theology, and God’s real and true goodness and faithful deliverance!
God bless you, and please don’t stop writing!
April 13th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Just heard rumblings (via Twitter) that the SG pre-T4G meeting had Jeff Purswell spending 3 hours on church polity. Anybody else here about this?
Defended – Yeah, chips, salsa, cold beverages, laughing, crying. Someday?
April 13th, 2010 at 12:56 am
FP – you betcha! Anytime, our place – or yours!
Re:Twitter – was that in the pre-meeting? surely not in front of others of the Baptist persuasion!
Ya know, Dr. Whitney has come to our humble congregation and spoken from his Romans 8 sermon. Great message. It struck me then that he can love his T4G brothers like CJM, but he will NEVER EVER know what it’s like to be under the oppressive thumb of CJM.
April 13th, 2010 at 6:31 am
FSGP,
I haven’t heard details, but I’m very interested.
April 13th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Defended -
SGM has 2 mandatory meetings for all SG pastors at T4G, one the evening before the first day and one the morning of the first day. In the past these have been for SG pastors and HQ staff only. Sidebar – my former pastor and boss set the tone for me at the last T4G when he announced “I’m only here because I have to be; it’s my job”. We were traveling and rooming together. It was pretty much downhill after that.
Jim -
Supposedly JP spoke for 3 hours and went over an 18 page outline. Purswell can really pack it in. Still, glad I am not there.
Former SG Pastor
April 13th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Like Jim, I’m very interested in the content. 18 pages is a long list!
Talking points? Changes/adjustments? or a review?
April 13th, 2010 at 11:41 am
Changes/adjustments.
April 14th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
T4G summaries /sessions, from Thinking Matters.
April 14th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
And the beat goes on: CJ introduces the BIG DOG (RC Sproul’s) to T4G. Click here.
April 14th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned — I received the same photo on my email. And laughed out loud to think that the relatively unknown CJ introduced somebody who, in reformed circles, needs no introduction. I guess the pastoral equivalent to a lesser musician opening for a big-name band….
I hope and pray that the Holy Spirit gets a hold of T4G in a mighty way!
April 14th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Is there irony somewhere in the GratefullyD post: RC Sproul introduced by CJ photographed by GE who posted it all to twitpic. Everybody sing with me: One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same …
Boldly,
Former SG Pastor
April 14th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Irony? Yes FSGP, indeed.
Square Peg, great point and “observation.”
April 15th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
I listened to Mark Devers talk and was really disturbed. He talked about the “depravity or redeemed folks” admitting that the church is a “pit of vipers” that is no better than the world except that we know we are vipers and we have no other motive for being in the church than to glorify God. This, he claims affects church membership in that it should be attractive to the world. I agree with the need for humility but I have some questions:
1) did I understand what he actually said correctly?
2) my understanding the christian witness is that were were depraved, we have been regenerated, we are being transformed into the image of Christ, and we will be glorified when He appears.
3) If we cannot show the world how we have changed by God’s grace and the hope that we have to be like Christ, then Mark’s message is only half the gospel. It lowers the standard for Christian conduct, and does not demonstrate the power of Christ’s resurrection. It offers little hope, and as such it is no gospel at all.
This was not the gospel that was preached to me by early members of Gathering of Believers. If it was, I may never have become a believer. Comments?
April 27th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Found this on a Piper teaching from years ago.
1 Timothy 5:17 says, “Let the elders who rule well [or govern or oversee or manage well] be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.” So it is clear that there is a diversity of function among the elders. All must be able to handle the Word of God and be able to recognize false doctrine and correct error; but some “labor especially in preaching and teaching.”
Si if “some labor especially in teaching and preaching” where are the “OTHER ELDERS” in SGM churches?