A beautiful thing happened at the SGC in San Diego yesterday.
Mark Lauterbach, the senior pastor who was de-gifted and then re-gifted, shared his heart with the congregation after his Sunday morning sermon. There was another meeting last night, but I haven’t received any details yet.
I’m told that after his sermon, Mark asked the congregation to forgive him. He publicly confessed to the sins of pride and control, specifically, that he had refused input from the congregation, and confessed that was wrong for the pastors to decide in major issues themselves, and then inform the congregation.
Mark also stated that he had confused control for good leadership, and had sought to run things himself, instead of seeing others gifts and letting them walk in their gifting. He said that he had assumed too much authority.
The other pastor on staff confessed to ignoring input from the congregation regarding his responsibilities.
As an aside, here’s Mark’s latest blog post:
“In my readings today, a wonderful word from Tozer on introspection and joylessness:
While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves — blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the Perfect One. (Pursuit of God)
Now that, in a few words, is what I have been trying to say in many.”
AMEN!
There are pastors in every denomination, including SGM, who are very concerned with job security. I know pastors who need SGM, as they would be unemployable if their relationship with SGM ended.
I also know pastors within SGM who don’t need them. Some would have larger congregations if they were unencumbered with SGM’s baggage.
I’ve thought for years that Mark was in the latter category, and for what it’s worth, believe that Mark was speaking from his heart, and was under no compulsion from SGM HQ to address the congregation.
Bless you Mark! May your tribe increase.
If anyone from San Diego would like to weigh in, I’d be grateful if you would flesh out my sketchy details.
That’s good news – very refreshing. It is interesting that he quoted Tozer. When I was a young believer in CLC, we read a lot of devotional authors: a Kempis, Guyon, Tozer, Richard Foster, Gene Edwards, etc. The understanding of this stream of “mystical” teachers going back centuries was that personal transformation grew out of communiion with Christ and a loving desire to imitate him, rather than intropection on the fallen nature
Jim:
This is interesting news. I listened to Mark’s sermon from 1/24 and was surprised by it. One of his themes was that Christians are discouraged and need to be encouraged. What a concept! Not bashed with a copy of “Humility”, but encouraged. Not reminded of their indwelling sin nature, but encouraged. I could scarcely believe my ears.
Alas, Jim, we have little to be concerned with. Steve Shank can fly into town and beat Mark into shape in one weekend or less. It’s happened before …
Still, enjoying this bit of sunshine,
Former SG Pastor
I think Gerg meant to say Jonathan….
WOW! This is amazing to me and so refreshing!
“In my readings today, a wonderful word from Tozer on introspection and joylessness:While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves — blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the Perfect One. (Pursuit of God)
Now that, in a few words, is what I have been trying to say in many.”
I hope with all my heart that this is sincere, is from God working in His heart and not from “headquarters”. The evidence will be in how he walks this out. It is far easier to speak the words than to live it day by day. Seems like very good news and a first within SGM churches.
A question;
“De-gifting” and “Re-gifting”.
Just where on earth do SGM get this concept from and how on earth do they support it biblically? Particularly when Scriptures like; “The giftings and callings of God are irrevocable” spring to mind?
I know this isn’t on topic per-se (probably belongs more in the polity section) but who has the right to “de-gift” and then “re-gift” someone like Mark?
Thanks – would be interested on thoughts and history of where this came from!
This is wonderful news! Like Fred said, what a first! Heaven is clapping! As we say out west, “YEE-HA!”
The Tozer comment says it all.
To Mark and Grace Church, this is a great, new beginning. The Lord increase your boundaries as you continue to walk together in God’s abounding grace.
Wow, this Canary is chirping with joy!
Dan,
I don’t want to go negative because this is an encouraging post, but here is my experience with the “gifting” issue. The problems stems from SGMs view that gifts and callings are determined by leadership. That, of course, is an entirely subjective process. So, it can change based on how you are doing and whether or not you are in favor.
They quote various scriptures related to the laying on of hands and the commissioning of workers. Interestingly enough, none of those passages mention gifts – they are more task oriented. The clearest example is Paul and Barnabas’ commission to preach to the gentiles, but Paul had been doing that for many years before he even met James and Peter, and that was on his own initiative. The commissioning at Antioch was a confirmation, not a determination.
So, here is how it played out for me. I led a CG that did quite well initially. It doubled and split, and we started the second group with a leadership core. It was a total of 40+ people between the two groups. At that time, the pastor over me met with me and told me that I had not only a gift a leadership, but the rare gift of developing leadership in others and that he wanted to work with me further in this (very flattering).
A few months after the split, folks left in the first group stopped coming regularly, and even my leadership team did not prep for meetings. Personally I think they were bored of doing books or maybe just tired. I had no desire to compel people any more, so I sat down with my group and told them that if they did not want to meet anymore, then we should consider shutting the group down and doing something else, but everyone should go home and pray and let me know what they wanted to do. Within a week, every one of them came back to me with a renewed commitment to the group.
When this got back to the pastor, he called me into his office on a Saturday morning and summarily dismissed me as care group leader. No discussion, no working together to solve the problem. He simply told me that I was not gifted or called to be a leader. I was crushed. When I challenged him about his previous statements and that gifts are from the Lord and not revocable. he said, “Well, sometimes we get it wrong.”
I was not going to let this go. What ensued was a nine month process of meeting with him and his pastor over the matter. It was painful; the usual intimidation tactics were used on me. Finally what came out was that this pastor had become afraid that he had lost control over the group and needed to do something. He had attempted to gather incriminating evidence against me and lied about it.
Finally we was correded by his pastor, and I believe he genuinly repented. I then spent another series of meetings trying to make sure that my “calling” was reinstated and that I was not blacklisted. I really had to confront these guys on their rationale.
That finally accomplished, we had to discuss what I would do next. Since I had a growing interest in pioneer missions, I was not going to take leadership of any local ministry teams as I had done in the past, but now missions was the sticking point. The SGM logic on this was:
1) Only apostles initiate new church plants (wrong concept of apostle)
2) We build CP teams around proven pastors ( it doesn’t always happen that way)
3) You are not called to be a pastor (where does it say you have to be a paid pastor?)
4) Therefore, you are not called to pioneer church planting
5) Therefore you are out of God’s will
Out of obedience to God I continued in my missions efforts, and that created more problems, and I eventually left over that issue, the shift towards hyper Calvinism and the one word that describes all gifting, de-gifting and leadership assignments: Control.
Rich, I did mean Gene Edwards, not Jonathan Edwards. The latter has some value, but is not very devotional.
Greg:
I experienced some pain as I read your account; on some points your story mirrors mine.
I have found the whole gift-degift-regift process to be a black box. For example, there was a pastor who graduated from Southern Seminary and then was bitten by the SG bug and went to the PC. After graduating from the PC he was placed in an SG church in an associate position. When the SG ruling council replaced the church’s founding pastor (do to health and gifting), they passed over the seminary/PC grad and instead installed a PC student (he hadn’t finished the PC yet). It struck me as odd that the seminary/PC grad made it through his training programs, apparently confirmed in gifitings, only to have them questioned after all that training and experience. To me the process appeared cold and capricious.
In the same vein, I listened to an apostle/bishop go through many of the churches in his region and list the deficiencies of each pastor. I WAS SHOCKED. I don’t remember a good word coming from the man’s mouth on any of “his” pastors. So much for evidences of grace. During this conversation the a/b stated that SG’s thinking had changed and that the view was that the senior pastor or church planter needed to have a preaching gift above all other giftings. This seemed odd given that this a/b is not known for tight expositions of scripture. This conversation occured prior to MarkL’s degifting-regifting.
How does SG leadership degift/regift? Not to worry, folks. It is a cryptic process not to be disclosed to mere mortals.
Voiding where prohibitted,
Former SG Pastor
I think this is a good summary:
“How does SG leadership degift/regift? Not to worry, folks. It is a cryptic process not to be disclosed to mere mortals.”
Well, as a recent refugee from this SD church, I *hope* this is something good. I hope they turn a corner. My experience was quite negative, too many red flags, and the place seemed dead. Not growing. To me. A gloomy place, even the very “sanctuary” — gloomy, dim. ML seems like he could do better than SGM. Seems smart enough to see past the facade, but also seems a bit disconnected. Again, to me. I’m not Ivy-league educated, but I could see it quite quickly, the foundation of legalism. Maybe he sees more than he lets on, but can’t afford to let on that he sees it. It all *sounds* good, but don’t let the fact it’s in mellow SD fool you. It’s still pretty rigid under the surface, from what I experienced.
Leadership assignments and dismissals are made in private conversations between the SGM leaders in charge based on their subjective impressions of that person’s worthiness or “fit” within the SGM leadership club. Gifting is just an excuse, it has nothing to do with the decsion. They wouldn’t know anyway, because they don’t fast and submit themselves to the Holy Spirit.
There are no processes or standards. The only way to avoid being removed from mininstry at any time is to take yourself or your church out of SGM. The good news for me is that I have had plenty of ministry opportunites since I left SGM and I’m really grateful for what God has done. I’m just saying this for any lurkers still in SGM so you don’t get hurt. For those that have been hurt, I pray that you willrealize that everything God has promised you is true and will come to pass. I had to get over the SGM opinion of me an get busy again before I recovered.
Hi, Greg (or Gerg, as I shall henceforth call you). You wrote, ” I had to get over the SGM opinion of me and get busy again before I recovered.” The Veggietales DVD about the Snoodles helped me to see that God loved me and wanted to hang my pictures on his fridge. Like the poor Snoodle, I had been so beaten down by SGM’s opinions of me that I had nearly forgotten all the gifts and abilities God himself had given me for my good and for His glory.
ML sharing with the congregants sounds hopeful—hopefully all he shared was from his own stirrings in his heart and not a script from the SGMleadership.—We shall watch for fruit—will there be a shuffle-do-si-do of leadership there ?? Or a group of Believers dependent on Jesus the Christ,encouraged and equipped to be the salt and Light to their neighbors………..
Greg,thankyou for sharing your experience (testimony/story), and insights. In regards to how SGM brings forth leaders/pastors, you stated “……..they don’t fast and submit themselves to the Holy Spirit.” This would be so evident in all the shufflings and half-truths we have witnessed in several upheaving churches this past year.
To the Believers in SGC San Diego:
“May the Lord continuously direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ.” IIThess 3:5
It would be really wonderful if Mark L. contacted some of those who have been harmed by heavy handed authority and had to leave GC, to make amends. What balm that would be for their hearts!
I say again, I hope Mark L. reaches out to those who have left because of his heavy handed use of authority. It would be healing to many souls.
Canary — // I say again, I hope Mark L. reaches out to those who have left because of his heavy handed use of authority. It would be healing to many souls.//
Agree with you there.
I’ve listened to the sound files from Sunday 31st and unless I’m missing something, the big confessions were not recorded. I’m not saying they didn’t happen, just that they weren’t recorded and I can’t figure out why.
sweeney,
These kinds of things are not normally put on the internet.
I’ve heard from eyewitnesses.
Canary- I don’t think Mark L is a poster boy for pastoral abuse of authority. Have you heard accounts of heavy handed leadership from Mark?
Waters and Canary, right on!!
Jim — Okay, thank you. I wasn’t aware.
No, I only read what you posted: Mark also stated that he had confused control for good leadership…
I never meant to imply that he was a “poster boy for pastoral abuse of authority”. Didn’t say that, never meant it…
Once again, based on his confession, I hope Mark L can find those who might have been hurt by his “confusing control for good leadership”, those harmed by this, and help them.
Sheesh, just trying to be positive here. Isn’t this the kind of confession we’ve been hoping some sgm pastor would make? This is a good thing, right?
Canary,
While I have vehemently voiced my disagreement with many of the posters here, I must agree with you on this one. If the stated purpose of this site is genuine (I have no reason to think otherwise regarding Jim) then this should be exactly what folks here have been hoping and praying for. Not destruction, nor ruin, nor vengeance, but repentance, accountability and change.
Back in the back row,
Chuck
I apologize for the impatient tone of my last post. Maybe I’ve been at this too long.
Why would Mark L have confessed and asked forgiveness for control if he wasn’t guilty?
As we have great compassion on those church members who have been abused and victimized, hurt and wounded, I am once again feeling great compassion for the pastors. You see, I believe that they have been used and abused as well. They were set up by the SGM machine and system to fail as pastors. Many were/are impressionable young men who believed everything that they were told, just like many in the congregations (including many of us who have left SGM churches). The older men who are/were pastors were also set up to fail. Look at Bendenelli in Denver and Dentwiler in Charlotte. I believe that these men were doing what they had been trained to do – control, control, control as well as hide and cover up anything and everything that is wrong. Then it backfired and they were the ones stoned. Did they do wrong? Absolutely but where is the accountability of those who stood above them? There is no accountability and those above them have taken no responsibility.
Canary-we’ve all been at this for too long
My sound bite comments are not helpful. I’ll try to explain what I’m thinking. This might help Fred know where I’m coming from as well.
It seems that Mark confessed to being a one man show, making decisions without congregational input. He did not confess to table turning or shunning people who disagreed with him, and I haven’t heard reports that he is that type of leader.
I am obviously in favor of pastors who have “seen the light” to pursue those they have hurt and seek forgiveness. I just haven’t heard reports of Mark L leaving a trail of broken people in his wake, and he did not imply that he had.
I hope this helps. I want to celebrate change in SGM when it occurs, and feel that at times we can put these men in a position where they are darned if they do and darned if they don’t.
To be honest, I think that this is unfair and illogical.
…like canary, who was in moderation when I was writing my last comment…
Thanks for celebrating with me!
Jim,
Re: Greg on 2/2 @525:
Thank you so much for that encouragement! It meant more than you know.
Chuck, all who heard of what took place at Grace Church should be celebrating. I know I did! The Tozer quote was especially a breath of fresh air. I don’t know Mark L. but have no reason not to believe in his sincerity. My prayers are with GC in San Diego.
Regarding Greg’s description of how SGM pastors’ control can be threatened by others’ gifting: in the late 80s or early 90s, CLC agreed to start a group for people interested in the political arena to meet, discuss, pray, etc. Grant was nominated by leadership as the “pastoral covering”, to attend meetings, etc.
At first, everything went fine. As CLC had a number of members working downtown in public policy (gov’t, think tanks, etc), these people began to blossom during the meetings. Various issues (beyond pro-life, which had been the one area of CLC’s activism in the early years) began to be discussed.
Grant appeared to be happy with what he was learning, the passion displayed by group members, etc. He took lots of notes.
Within a fairly short time, one young man assumed the real leadership role. He was smart, humble, had excellent public-speaking ability, had obvious leadership skills and definite ideas. He got the group thinking about possible activities CLC members could participate in (whether letter-writing, educational “consciousness-raising” for intercession, whatever).
You can guess what happened next. To the group’s surprise, Grant announced that the group was being terminated by CLC leadership because, in their view, it was becoming too political. It was pretty clear, however, that the real issue was that someone other than a pastor (Grant) was having his gift make room for him – and that this was a group of bright, talented people who were beginning to think outside the box of CLC’s purely spiritual focus and control-via-doctrine.
If Greg, Steve240 or other old-timers have better memories or thoughts, I’d be glad to hear them.
Jim wrote “I hope this helps. I want to celebrate change in SGM when it occurs, and feel that at times we can put these men in a position where they are darned if they do and darned if they don’t.”
Thanks, Jim. I agree, and appreciate that you made that comment.
SP and Jim,
True, ya’ll— to be careful not to lump every pastor in a category that doesn’t define them and to pray for them and rejoice when we see/hear stirrings of genuine owning up to what God is showing them.
Happy Friday. Let me catch up here
Fred: You nailed it. I totally agree. One virtue this group could grow in is understaning of and compassion for current and past SGM leaders who are under the heavy burden of legalism and control. All churches lose people, but SGM has very high loss rate among leaders at all levels.
The B-I-B-L-E: You’re welcome. Let me know if there is any way I can help. I’m all about helping people heal and move on.
keepinstep: I do have very good memories of CLC including
1) great friendships, many of which I still have
2) great teaching (until we ran off the road into hyper calvinism)
3) excellent training and ministry experiences in evangelism, local ministry to internationals, sound crew, and altar ministry.
Things turned sour when I started to lead out in the areas of pioneer missions and care groups (i.e. doing something other than reading prescribed books).
Greg,
Perhaps you understood this, or perhaps not — I wasn’t implying you had NO good memories of CLC, but rather asking if you had any memories of the incident I described, with better details than those I provided.
I agree with your 3 points of good CLC memories, and like others am grateful that God provided those things via CLC.
I apologize for any misunderstanding.
Jim.
I’ve been puzzled and a little bothered by these comments:
He did not confess to table turning or shunning people who disagreed with him, and I haven’t heard reports that he is that type of leader.
I just haven’t heard reports of Mark L leaving a trail of broken people in his wake, and he did not imply that he had.
at times we can put these men in a position where they are darned if they do and darned if they don’t.
Since these words were written in a post with my name on it, I can only take them as directed at me. Maybe I’m beating a dead horse, but I have to be honest. I never, never said any of those things concerning Mark L. I feel that you misunderstood the intent of my short posts on the subject. For the sake of the reputation of this blog, I apologize if I came across that way. I must clear this up.
I rejoice at the happenings at Grace Church. I have great respect for Mark L. having confessed his heart to the saints there. Let me rephrase my wording from pervious posts: IF there is even one wounded soul who left GC because of Mark’s confusing “control with good leadership”, then it would be a great help for that person to have things set straight (you know how my heart has always been concerned about the wounded who have been forced from sgm). It is what I wish that my ex-pastor would have done. Instead, he was shanked many years later. That is not a happy thing in my mind. Far better that he should have seen his errors and repented than to have lost his job. But that did not happen.
That is why I celebrate what happened in GC. If one pastor repents (no matter how small his errors were), perhaps other sgm pastors will eventually see their far greater abuses of authority and follow in Mark’s footsteps. I honestly never meant to put him in a bad light. Please believe me.
I hope this clarifies my heart on the matter. I sometimes think I’ve been here long enough that I don’t need to explain anymore where I’m coming from. That’s not the case, especially with new people posting now. So, SO sorry if anyone else took my words to mean what you did, Jim. I’m here to support, not cause you more troubles! Very sincerely, a very pink faced yellow Canary.
Canary,
The only part of that comment that was directed towards you was the first sentence-we’ve all been at this for too long.
I should have started the next section with, “everyone”, or, “hey gang”, something like that. It really looked like the entire comment was speaking to you. It wasn’t. You know that I would have sent you a note, rather than “correcting” you online.
It’s my fault. I’m sorry.
The “darned if they do or don’t” is directed at everyone, including myself. Sometimes I get the feeling on the blogs that these guys can’t win for losing (I hope everyone knows what that means) and I think that some of these guys have possibly been painted into a corner they’ll never get out of.
Thanks, Jim. I’m very relieved.
Back to celebrating!
Jim-
Thanks for keeping us from being too cynical…I know many wouldn’t believe this, but I can tell that you have a heart for these SG pastors.
peace-mm
Jim said, “I think that some of these guys have possibly been painted into a corner they’ll never get out of.” Just wondering Jim, if “these guys” are in a corner, who do you think put them into the corner?
I am celebrating Mark’s apology too but let’s face the truth, “these guys” painted themselves into a corner – not the blogs nor anyone else.
Fred,
Some really bad SGM pastors have caused many of us to use a broad brush. Many see all SGM pastors in the same light, based on the actions of some.
I’m not blind to the failings of SGM. “Quality control” has been weak, to say the least. I don’t share CJ’s view that “we have a few problems, but we’re dealing with them.” The “problems” are all over the country, with every region in the mix. I know who the bad guys are, as my inbox is always active.
Here’s my concern, and I’ve stated this before. It’s not fair or logical for us to allow Gene or Mark M or Steve or Bendi or whoever to paint Mark L into a corner. These guys are not all cut from the same mold.
I’m with you that Gene and others like him have painted themselves into a corner. Here’s the issue-let’s say, just for arguments sake, that there are 50 bad guys, although I don’t think that I’ve heard bad reports about a number that large. There are now almost 100 SGCs, which means that SGM has at least 300 pastors. If the number of bad guys were as high as 15%, would it be fair or logical to pre-judge the other 85%? I think not. I feel that this is the corner painting that sometimes happens on the blogs. “They’re all rotten.” I know from personal experience that they all are not.
What about the hypothetical 15%? Mullery is clearly a twit. If his twitdom has not disqualified him, I want to leave room for him to get himself out of the corner that you have correctly stated he painted himself into. Having said that, there are some whose twitdom has disqualified them as elders, and for me, there is nothing they can do to get out of the corner, other than resign.
Does this make any sense?
Thank you Jim. Yes it makes a lot of sense and I agree with you concerning the individual pastors. I do not believe that these blogs have backed these men into a corner, however. There are definitely “good guy” pastors in the mix and pastors who would thrive if they left SGM. My comments were more about the movement as a whole backing themselves into a corner. It has not been any one individual pastor who has done this but the movement as a whole and especially the upper leadership. However, even the “good guy” pastors have been tremendously influenced by the wrong teaching, wrong doctrine, misrepresentation of the role of pastors (standing in the stead of God), etc, etc. I am 100%, totally, completely convinced that every pastor within SGM is deceived at some level to still be pastors within SGM no matter how much a good guy they are. We all know that if they had not submitted at some level to the upper management, they would have been shanked already!
Take the case of CD who left Denver and went to Richmond. Apparently a great guy with a heart for Jesus and the people. When he was fired by Bendenelli, why didn’t he tell the people the truth as to why he was leaving? Same case with many others who have been shanked. Very possibly, they were shanked because they were good guys but they left with half baked stories as to why they were departing. Doesn’t add up!
I am very thankful that Mark L confessed and apologized to his congregation. I am still wondering why he would have done this if he wasn’t guilty at some level? Any ideas Jim?
I would add that some of these SGM pastors have dug themselves into a hole that is hard to get out of. That is they would have to as they say “eat crow” or admit that they were in the wrong in certain things. That can be hard to do, especially in higher profile cases.
For example the Dottie Baker and her family being excommunicated from the Philadelphia (area) SGM Church. As public as these men have been about the incident, they would have to retract a lot of what they said and did and admit their faults it wouldn’t be easy.
I am glad to see the the SanDiego pastor making a move in the right direction.
Hey brothers and sisters,
PLEASE READ THIS
I would love to here in one sentence (because we all have long winded breaths! ha!) one thing that SGM does that is unbiblical. It seems that bashing a person that the Father calls “son” or “daughter” would anger him. So, let’s think of the truth being outside of us, and then work to get to that truth together, holding hands, not b-o-m-b-s…
I have just four comments to make here. I am a member of Grace Church San Diego and a current student at Westminster Seminary California. I am a former pastor of a non-denominational church (founder) from Temecula, Ca. It was the fastest growing congregation in America at one point (3-524 in 4 and 1/2 months). I say that pridefully so that you respect me and will eventually bow down and laugh at every joke I make
.
Comment 1: What attracted me to SGM, specifically in San Diego, was the gospel being placed at the center. This was the intent of Craig Cabiniss and Mark Lauterbach. It isn’t about how much I read the Bible, how much I pray, whether or not that I tithe, or what gifts that I could finally shine with (I was a former pastor and worship-leader). When I first lead worship for a small group there, Eric Turbedsky asked me afterwards, “well…since, you didn’t ask for critique, let me give you some.” It angered me for almost a year that every time that I led worship he did that. I even convinced my wife that he was a crazy control freak and shouldn’t be a pastor, and that maybe we should leave. In the end, I realized that he was doing these things to actual serve me. He saw sin in me and sought me out to care for my soul. The sin lied within me of wanting to be noticed (HELLO, I was a pastor and worship-leader of one of the fastest growing church bodies before, and it had been two years before they asked me to do anything!). I, the dumb sheep, didn’t get what my earthly shepherd was doing.
Comment 2: SGM has all kinds of problems. So does the OPC, PCA, Calvary Chapel, URC, Rome, WillowCreek, Acts 29, John Piper, etc. ad nauseam. This doesn’t mean that I would leave. What other good church could I find? Does anyone know of a good church? I would love to see one. Then I could finally be in heaven.
Comment 3: Since, probably, no one here is trained in the Bible (I don’t mean the Pastor’s College because it is pastoral, not intense biblical training), nor called to pastor a church, but called to be a dumb sheep of God, think of Peter, our great example of the perfect pastor, and then rethink your position.
Comment 4: Lastly, we get mad when people make Christianity about what the Christian does and not what the Savior did. Why aren’t we applying the same to SovGrace. C.J. or Simmons, or Mark Lauterbach, et. al. are not Sovereign Grace Ministries, their message is. Do you agree with the gospel? Then these people are your brothers no matter how bad they gave you a wedgie, chewed you out, didn’t listen to your concerns, or didn’t care about the gifts that God has given you. That sounds like an earthly brother or sister to me. They will get this all wrong themselves, but their message won’t change.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I will probably judge you, pray that God give you boils under your armpits, laugh at you, and post your comments of sgm4life.com (I don’t know if that exists, haha; I will actually check right now…nope, doesn’t exist).
P.S. I know how you feel though. I came from a Calvary Chapel background and had to deal with a lot of issues that people from SGM helped me with. I get it. What’s weird is that we love each other because of some dude that died on a piece of wood 1970 some odd years ago. So, love you all!
Above all, may God bless us with the remembrance of what His Son has done by the power of the Holy Spirit for His Own glory,
Chad Brewer
chadlovesjesus@hotmail.com
Chad said:
“I would love to here in one sentence (because we all have long winded breaths! ha!) one thing that SGM does that is unbiblical.”
Jim said:
“You’re kidding, right?”
Well folks, we couldn’t give you a better example of what we’ve been posting about for over a year than Chad’s letter to us above. OMGoodness, is he serious????
I’m having a moment. Excuse me while I flap my wings a bit.
The Holy Spirit, our Comforter, convicts us of sin, not people.
Only God knows a person’s heart. People can only correct outward behavior. The conflict arises when a person tries to be the Holy Spirit to another believer.
Chad said, “ So, let’s think of the truth being outside of us, and then work to get to that truth together, holding hands, not b-o-m-b-s…” Considering the bombs he has dropped here and over at survivor’s, hand holding is the last thing I want to do.
Most people who have any sort of tact (I won’t even mention “love”) would, as a new poster, recognize the need for a little more humility, being a newby and all.
Has Chad read any of the forums, here? Hmmmm…
Lastly, I think Chad is quite fortunate in having Mark L. lead the way in humility.
Chad:
Lions and tigers and Chad, oh my!
You present yourself as a big ball of contradictions that is too full of himself. This condition is more than likely exacerbated by your connections with both SG and Westminster California. All the credentials that you rack up for yourself on this site and at Survivors undoubtedly impress you but won’t carry much weight here.
If you bluster at Grace Church like you do here and get away with it, that church is in worse condition than expected.
Thanks for making me chuckle,
Former SG Pastor
I’ve never seen Chad on survivors (I’m a Kris & Guy fan, just don’t have time to read it), so this is my first exposure.
I’m sticking with, “he’s trying to be funny”.
Chad “visited” survivors yesterday. Caused quite a stir over there!
Chad:
I have not posted for awhile because my day job was filling up my time but your post above grabbed my attention for many points which its sublimely.
1. ”In the end, I realized that he was doing these things to actual serve me. He saw sin in me and sought me out to care for my soul. The sin lied within me of wanting to be noticed.”
What exactly was your sin? Wanting to be noticed? You were in a visible position leading worship for a small group and accordingly you would, by the nature of the role, be noticed aand conseqently I would be surprised if you did not struggle with wanting to be noticed. I used to be a caregroup and ministry leader in my former SGM church and I would understand that temptation very well. Given CJ’s proclivity toward pulpit theatrics, I think Eric could bring the same obversation to him and for me and others here, there lies one of the problems witin SGM. Namely, the subjective manner in which individual’s sins are identified and brought before them.
2. ”Since, probably, no one here is trained in the Bible (I don’t mean the Pastor’s College because it is pastoral, not intense biblical training), nor called to pastor a church, but called to be a dumb sheep of God”
I could not disagree with this statement more because it is profoundly insulting to the believers here and really everywhere. It is true that as far as I know that no one here has any formal theological training but we are called to be Bereans testing everything we hear against the word of god. Go find the posts which PK did hear on church polity. It may have been abbreviated by virtue of being on a blog but it was a scholarly and winsome attempt to deconstruct flaws in Bible Doctrine. In fact by using the phrase “dumb sheep of God” you actualy indict one of the other flaws in SGM. Namely, the members have lost the abilithy to be Bereans. They simply accept unquestioningly everything that comes from the pulpit.
3. “Lastly, we get mad when people make Christianity about what the Christian does and not what the Savior did. Why aren’t we applying the same to SovGrace”
Let me aski when SGM asks its members to accept unquestioningly all that come from the pulpit and to submit benignly to subjective and sometimes harsh examinations of their sin? Is not SGM making Christianity more about what the Christian does than the finished work of Christ?
Finally, Mark Lauterbach came to my SGM church once and spoke and I was very impressed by his preaching ability, his commitment to expositional preaching,his years of ministry experience (some may read old but in SGM”s obsession with the next generation is not necessarily a bad thing to have around) and the genuine humility he displayed from the pulpit. Overall he struck me as someone who is not your typical, formulaic product of the pastors college and in light of the foregoing his apology to the church seems entirely in keeping with who he seems to be and I think SGM is fortunate to have him and his presence keeps hope for reform alive.
He’s not kidding. Read 2/8 #259, to get the “joke,” Normal and SGM. The post does reveal some things, but not humor. He’s the worship leader at Grace Church in addition to the other resume points already touted.
Chad — I attended (past tense) your very church. Recently.
Jesus calls us his sheep, yes, but we are NOT called to be “dumb” sheep. Sadly, this seems to be an operative idea within SGM — even SGM SD. It’s such an interesting word choice here: “dumb” sheep. “Dumb” can mean stupid. “Dumb” can mean mute. We’re called to be Bereans, not mute, stupid sheep.
/Then these people are your brothers no matter how bad they gave you a wedgie …/
Chad, what happened for my family at your very church was more than getting a wedgie. That would have been preferred, actually.
Unfortunately, you don’t help your case by your woeful communication skills and poor grammar. I think you’re boasting as a joke, but people are more likely to respect you and listen to what you say if you learn to modulate your tone. I actually think if Mark L. were to see your comments here, they might give him pause. I would really exhort you to spend more time listening — both here and at Survivors — and asking the Lord to show you any truth in what’s being said at both sites before you comment in the future. Again, people will take you more seriously if you do so. I’m sure people want to engage you, but you need to approach others’ perspectives with more respect if you want respect in return.
I mean, “well…since, you didn’t ask for critique, let me give you some.”
Hope: Chad is one of several worship leaders at SD, not THE worship leader.
Sweeney, thanks for the clarification, please pardon the error. I’m sorry for your difficulties at Grace. Praying the Lord is bringing your family healing from those wounds.
I am 100%, totally, completely convinced that every pastor within SGM is deceived at some level to still be pastors within SGM no matter how much a good guy they are.
I believe this as well. I see it very much like the RCC. We have true brethren in the Catholic church but they are in bondage to the infallible ex-cathedra pronouncements of the Pope. I see SGM as a reflection of that same system to some degree, without the Mary queen of heaven worship or the prayers to dead saints. You do have the leader worship but it isn’t on quite the same level, and of course there is the Pope who can’t be questioned. Eventually as part of sanctification and walking in truth, you have to come out, no matter how grievous the loss of relationships.
wow. I didn’t mean for this to go this way. I really meant us to have a discussion on things, since I myself see a lot of things that SGM could improve on. I guess it best to go through the list of people that have commented personally.
Jim: I am not kidding, but sincerely want to know, seriously. I’m not saying that because I think you are wrong, but because I want to protect my family from being abused the way that so many have been on these blogs. So, please help me?
Canary: I spent a lot of time reading every forum here and on sgmsurvivor. I wasn’t trying to convict you of sin. You are right, only the HS can do that. If you felt that I was, please forgive me? You folks here seem to know something that I have never experienced at SGM SD, and so I want to be helped to see it. Some of the comments on these blogs don’t seem like they are aiding in the healing process and that saddens me. I pray for full healing, restoration, and reconciliation between those that have sinned against you. Forgive me if I have been one of those people.
FSGP: I was listing those things out so that you all would know that I am not just some young Christian who has never been burned by a church. I am serious about getting things right and I thought by writing those things it would help you all see that. I’ve been told by many people, even this past Sunday, that my jokes sometimes get in the way of the truth. Please forgive me that this happened again.
formersgmer: I am responding to the numbers you listed to make it easy for both of us. 1) My sin was that I wanted other people to worship me. I wanted them to realize who I am and then respect me for what I have done. I guess that has been my sin here as well. Forgive me for this. 2) What I meant by the sheep comment is that they are one of the dumbest animals on the planet. God calls us sheep, so I say dumb sheep. I was including myself in that evaluation as well. Along with God calling us to test things, He gave church leaders to the church to care for it (Eph 4:11). You are all right that we need to find faithful church leaders. 3) SGM has never asked me to do this. It sucks that you had a very different experience.
Hope: I was making jokes, trying to make things not so heavy, but it definitely backfired because I didn’t really think about how deep these wounds are. Please forgive me for this. As for being one of the worship leaders for SD, I am no SGM representative, nor an SD representative. I am writing these things on my own. Sweeney is right, I am one of the worship leaders. I did lead as the primary worship leader for over a year, but I stepped down because there were some serious deficiencies in the care and leadership of my wife and kids. Mark was crucial in helping me through a lot of dark times and helped me find so much healing.
Sweeney: As I was telling formersgmer, I was meaning dumb sheep as in their intelligence. I once heard that they would follow each other off of a cliff and die just because they were following the one in front of them. I didn’t mean stupid or mute. I guess you interpreted my tone in a way I didn’t intend to be interpreted. That’s always been the problem with written text; tone and influx of voice for emphasis doesn’t exist. Even primitive written languages have that. It stinks. Did we ever meet? I don’t remember a lot of last names. Did I ever sin against you at the SD church? If I did, please forgive me.
Brothers and Sisters, I never intended this to go this way. I was hoping for some good iron sharpening iron. I came across in a rude, boasting, arrogant way. Please forgive me. As for my questions and comments, that aren’t offensive, please help me? Thank you so much!
Hope: Oh, no. I wasn’t trying to point out any error on your part, I’m sorry.
And thank you for the kind words.
Chad,
I appreciate your response here and on survivors, dude
If you want some answers, my contact info is on the “about” page. We won’t be sharpening each others iron, as that’s really part of being in relationship or community.
Chad:
Thanks for replying.
1. Ultimately, is not all of our sin(yours, mine and others) rooted in a tendency toward self-worship and the desire to exalt ourselves above God and others? Jeremiah 17:9 reminds that we all need to have a healthy suspicion of our motives but the problem in SGM is that the need to guard our hearts has often been turned into a means to control people, inhibit people from bringing questions to church leaders and even manipulate those with leadership potential into just being compliant tools.
2. You are correct that pastors are needed to care for the church but if we look at the book of Ephesian pastors also called to equip the church for the work of service. Unfotunately, in SGM’s ecclesiology, the preaching role and gift of the pastor is more strongly emphasized than other roles and I think this one of the reasons why most SGM churches have so few ministry opportunities available to the members other than being ushers, parking lot attendents, bookstore helpers and so forth. The roles I just mentioned are important to the functioning of a local church but there are many gifted people in SGM churches whose gifts and talents are being wasted bcause the pastors of these churches do a poor job of equiping the saints.
3. Actually much of my experience in SGM was generally good and as I hae said here before I am grateful to God that he used SGM to deepen my understanding of reformed theology. I am part of a PCA church now and I enjoy it and I could not go back to SGM primarily because the denomination is not truly reformed despite adopting reformed language and theology.
I was a part of SGM for almost twenty years and served in various capacities and the problem I had toward the end of that time was that the more I advanced in leadership and become privy to the inside (and trust me in all SGM churches there is an inner circle and an outer circle), I saw that things on inside are not what they appear to be on the outside.
former-a good look behind the curtain ruined me as well.
Jim & formersgmer – re: Jim’s curtain remark – Ditto.
Sadly,
Former SG Pastor
Chad:
Here’s a problem with your posts – they are polar opposites. Jeckyll and Hyde, if you will. Is that the way you communicate at Grace SD and Westminster? Is that the way you communicated with that fastest growing church that you pastored? It is hard for me to imagine Dr Kim or Dr Clark or Dr Horton or MarkL or Steve Shank enduring one of your outbursts. That may explain why you weren’t mentioned as a leader at Grace SD in the family meeting MP3 of 1/31.
Whatever. My years of association with SGM have left me with a strong sense of skepticism, which is probably healthy.
Skeptical about this one,
Former SG Pastor
Chad, of course you are forgiven. Not every sgm church has the same problems, so you might not have experienced what we have.
FSGP, a healthy skepticism is what keeps us from following false shepherds off a cliff.
Chad — Thank you for your apology. And, no, we never met and you did not sin against me there.
Honestly, I don’t think I misinterpreted your tone. That your communications went over with many people in a way you didn’t intend is on your head, I’m sorry to say. I don’t think people here misinterpreted your tone; the tone was there. If I misunderstood *your* meaning of the word “dumb,” that’s one thing. But the tone was fairly clear, as I think many here are saying.
But I do thank you for your apology and your change of heart here.
I agree with FSGP. Chad, your writing style is pretty skitzo…
Chad-
In one sentence, SGM lacks true love, for all their doctrine, ecclesiology, etc…they do not seem very adept at treating others the way they would want to be treated (ie-the golden rule).
peace to you-mm
PS-Hope you stay safe this fire season, Temecula and that whole are has been hit hard the last few years….again-peace.
Jim and FSGP, et. al.,
Thank you for your forgiveness. It means a lot.
About my writing style, it looks pretty skitzo for sure. The reason for that is selfishness and pride. Instead of thinking that you folks are right, on whatever level that may be, I never even considered it because of my experience at Grace Church SD. I was stuck in my own suspicions of you all. I never cared to love any of you, but simply bash you until you submitted to my presuppositions.
Normally, I am great in an actual conversation, gentle, relaxed, truth-seeking, but I seem to have a problem with tone no matter where I write small excerpts of info/argument, etc. on the internet. You should see my fantasy sports message boards! hahaha!
So, FSGP, you should be skeptical. That’s a good thing because I haven’t really done anything worth meriting your trust. I get that. Sometimes, you write something thinking that it is good and will produce something good, but then the next day you read it and think it’s pretty sucky. That’s what I felt about this one.
Looking forward to glory where none of these happen (yours and mine!),
Chad
Thanks Chad. That went pretty well
Greetings all,
I take a major issue with the “cross-centered” teaching that trumps Jesus-centered teaching at SGM. I don’t know if all the churches are like this, but it seems that’s the case. I’m pretty sure that people believe that if you really understand this teaching, you understand that you get to Jesus somehow in it, but why not just teach Jesus… like, run “to Jesus” instead of “the cross”? I have been in this church and have missed the focus on Jesus and my relationship with Him has suffered.
We have also suffered from the lack of discipleship apparently because the leaders decide who is the one annointed for ministry and who gets attention from whom which apparently involves a lot of pointing out sin. I know some very gifted people interested in growing who have wasted years of their lives as a result of this leadership.
It seems there’s a lot of repenting going on in the SD church which is great, but I still take issue with the theology of cross-centered teaching or at least how it is applied at this church and hope that someday the teaching becomes more Jesus-centered.
Consecrated,
One of the biggest reasons my husband and I left PDI/SGM in 1997 was the fact that we rarely heard Jesus talked about. The focus was always on sin. I can tell you now, 13 years post pdi, our focus is all about Jesus. We walk beside Him like we are super-glued to Him. There is nothing more refreshing, more satisfying, than being taught by the Lord. The difference between drinking the waters of sin doctrine verses the waters of grace doctrine is like drinking city water verses beautifully crisp, cold water from an artesan well.
Consecrated, you are SPOT ON!
If the cross= Jesus, and Jesus = the cross, then why not PREACH JESUS?!
there’s no need for abbreviation!
A truncated gospel is a different gospel to my thinking.
In Christ alone my hope is found….
I totally agree Consecrated. In fact, it was in a sermon by Jerry Bridges at my SGM church several years ago when I realized that I had lost sight of Jesus. He asked if we would be happy in heaven if Jesus wasn’t there… I knew that my answer would have been a resounding NO before my time at SGC, but that I had become so deadened by all of the introspection and myopic focus on the cross that I hadn’t cultivated my relationship with Jesus.
That was when I started my journey back to Him and began intentionally focusing on Him instead of “the cross” or “the gospel”. I love the gospel because of Jesus. I love the cross because of Jesus. But without Him, that message (the gospel) and that object (the cross) is meaningless.
Knowning Jesus and finding others who are in love with Him has been so refreshing.
Consecrated,Canary,Defended,Watching Closely……Amen!!
Thank you all for your validation! “Watching Closely and Defended” - so well articulated! That is so how I feel. ”Canary”, it is so nice to know I’m not alone. I was really tired of the sin focus and ensuing depressive intropection as well, although, thankfully at SD SGM that has slowly changed to not be the focus as much. Hoping other SGMs are changing as well.
It just hit me one day that where is Jesus in all this “gospel-centered” or “cross-centered” talk? It feels strange just little ‘ole me thinking this when there’s so many avid followers who are leaders and godly people of the g.centered or c.centered thinking, but I couldn’t shake it, especially after remembering the way it used to be when I had friends who’s every other word was “Jesus” and messages from the pulpit that dripped with the name of Jesus. Granted, there are some who seem to maintain their relationship with Jesus well in the SGM circle, but I don’t which is not surprising considering the sheep follow the leader. I miss Him, but am so far away that I barely even remember what I miss. Just glad we’re on the upward spiral now and looking forward to that day that we will be closer to Him.
Thanks again to all 4 of you for taking time to respond.