Good question, Fred.  From what the Bible says, the wheat and tares will grow together until it is time to separate them.  I suppose it is like that in any church.  Sheep or goat?  Oil lamp filled or empty?

As you said, any changes would probably be “business as usual” unless hearts are effected, as in submission to Jesus first.  This whole issue is so much more serious than church government.  So much more serious. 

Brilliant reasoning, Canary!
Thanks to all for taking this question of the Gospel that is being preached at SGM so thoughtfully.
My one lame little thought is that what is comprehended, is NOT necessarily what is communicated.  Thus the 600lb gorilla in the room.  Canary, Fred, and others, I think you have thoughtfully made a case that is grievous but careful and discerning.  Thanks also for the pointing to leaven, goats and tares. Very scary indeed.  Have mercy on us all, Lord Jesus!

Amen!  When I hear of someone dying, especially someone young, my heart is sometimes filled with dread for that person.  Is he with Jesus?  Or is he standing in the silence of Sheol, realizing that he’d lived under a false gospel, and that he is eternally separated from a Living God that he never really knew?  Oh, the horror!

This especially makes me fearful for the goats and the tare, those who believe they are safe in God, but are not.  That is why I say that the issue here is so much more serious than church government.  Pastors may preach the right words, but do they free up the saints to live in grace?  A Gospel filled with leaven is not the true Gospel.   Does the true Gospel lead to slavery?  Does it lead to a heavy burden that crushes the grace in a person?  No!

You are right – this should stir the fear of God in us all.  It is why I keep posting here, hoping that some will find freedom from false doctrines that enslave their soul – praying that they won’t wake up one day in Sheol, having been a tare instead of wheat.  That could have been me.  THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!!!

As has been said before, with all the teaching SGM does on “indwelling sin” and how much they like to say how “imperfect” their leaders are, it is shocking how few checks and balances exist within the leadership structure of SGM. 

Thus again, they may say they believe one thing but their actions show they really don’t believe that or at least when it applies to leaders. 

Good question, Fred.  From what the Bible says, the wheat and tares will grow together until it is time to separate them.  I suppose it is like that in any church.  Sheep or goat?  Oil lamp filled or empty?

As you said, any changes would probably be “business as usual” unless hearts are effected, as in submission to Jesus first.  This whole issue is so much more serious than church government.  So much more serious. 

One positive result of so much being exposed and so many leaving (from what I hear) is that the middle and outer circles are being treated better.  Let’s hope that this is a permanent change and not just temporary, trying to keep people from leaving the church.  This is wonderful news but isn’t it sad, that before everything erupted, they were treated so badly, so rejected and actually looked down upon by those in the inner circle. 

Defended-a scenario in which CGLs became “lay elders”  (there is no such thing) would clearly change nothing.

What if the congregation decided who was qualified to lead the congregation?

When Timothy appointed elders in Ephesus, do we think that he imported these men from other areas and imposed them on the locals?

Is it possible that he appointed men who were already recognized in their community as elders?

“……Dictotorial measures make lesser men craven and dependent,stunting their true growth. But it also has its harmful effects on the **’lords over Gods heritage’ .  It makes them egotistical and self-serving.”— Pastor Walter J Chantry
  ***['lord over Gods heritage' would, in SGM, be pastors who preach that they are: themselves operating in the 'very stead of God'*** requiring congregants to be a 'joy to pastor'***and seeing themselves as the final word as they are "guardians over their flocks souls"]

And this Sunday morning we pray for Gods people:

Eph 1: 7-23—- “Let us keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father,may give to us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that we may know Him better.Oh Lord, cause the eyes of our heart to be enlightened in order that we may know the hope to which You have called us, the riches of Your glorious inheritance in we, the saints, and Your incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of Your mighty strength, which You exerted in Christ when You raised Him from the dead and seated Him at Your right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all power and dominion, and every title that can be given,not only in the present age but also in the one to come. God placed all things under His feet and appointed HIM to be head over everything for the church, Which is HIS body, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way.”

I love thy people, Lord
For they’re the ones inside
The walls of stone and windows glass
In You do we abide

And if the church should ever rise
To take your place, my Lord
May you arrest the people’s hearts
To come back to your Word

For them my tears shall fall
For them my prayers ascend
And if the flock from you should stray
May buildings come to end

“I love Thy kingdom, Lord,
The house of Thine abode,
The church our blessed Redeemer saved
With His own precious blood.

I love Thy church, O God.
Her walls before Thee stand,
Dear as the apple of Thine eye,
And written on Thy hand.

For her my tears shall fall
For her my prayers ascend,
To her my cares and toils be given
Till toils and cares shall end.”

-Timothy Dwight (1800)

True points—really,only through the leaders responses to the conviction of Holy Spirit could SGM polity BEGIN to be exploded .— Fred, I wonder—since there has been so much prayer; intercession; bringing truth; unveiling of horriffic authoritative counsel and control; meetings;  hoop jumping, etc etc etc—-why/how have said leaders remained separated from responsibility or seeing what they have created? Not seeing them led by CJ in great brokenness over all the casualties SGM structure has produced…but instead CJ as recently as this summer continuing to preach that SGM congregants should esteem their pastors to the point of striving to be a  joy to their pastor??  Why the focus on pastors instead of Jesus—knowing Him—and delighting in Him?? –Sadly, it looks like a picture of self-worship– (Thus all the implosions we have witnessed?) —So many layers—The Dunamis power of God is needed…and God is able as we know…….

Thanks for the  response.  You’re absolutely right.  It’s not so much a matter of changing structure or organization as changing hearts.

I really appreciate your graciousness, as I have read your story and it is far worse than mine.  

I go back and forth (like Jim does, it seems) over whether SGM can be “redeemed”.

This is a great reminder.  ”With God all things are possible” (if it is His will, which we, of course, do not know…)  

Thanks again.

First, I love the focus on the resurrection and not just the cross = the whole gospel.  Is this actually being taught now in SGM and if so, where?

Second, can the polity of SGM actually be fixed?  Suppose that tomorrow an announcement was made that all churches should elect elders.  Who would be elected?  Probably the care group leaders.  Good people, mostly.  Respected and loved by their mini flocks.  But definitely in the pastors’ “camp theologically and mostly the submissive type (or would not have been “appointed”).  So, would the lasting result really bring change??  Or more of the same??

Just wondering…