This is a repost from Feb of last year. Some links are dead, because I’m nicer than I used to be. Hard to believe, I know…
I feel that this is timely because MCL’s issues are polity issues. The members are waiting to see what actions the leaders will take. It doesn’t seem very “joint heir-like” to me. MCL is not their church. You are not their people. It is clear that pastors in SGM have more authority than is granted by Scripture. This extra Biblical view of pastoral authority informs their polity. “Don’t talk to each other, talk to us”. When did Paul ever make such a statement? To whom were the epistles written to? The churches. Elders are rarely mentioned in the letters to the churches.
In the the next “we have decided” statement statement delivered to MLC, the “we” should refer to all of you. You are not children.
_______________________
We have a lot of new readers. It’s obviously impossible to read every post written since June of 08, so many new guests might form an opinion of this blog based on the topic at hand.
I left SGM in June of 06 because of their polity. I started this blog in June of 08 because of their polity.
POLITY IS IMPORTANT. ALL of SGM’s problems flow from their unorthodox, unique-to-SGM polity. It informs their Eccesiology, Missiology, and is the reason for their truncated Gospel, as their polity only allows them to hear their own voice. Their polity has placed them on the outer fringe of orthodoxy, forcing them to use out of context or partial quotes to give the impression that Biblical scholars support their fringe view.
In the recent SGC Chesapeake fiasco, both Keith and Gene appealed to SGM’s polity statement, rather than to Scripture. Very Roman, if you ask me.
By all means, read the SGM polity statement. Then, with the statement in hand, please read what we’ve had to say about SGM’s polity, and our lengthy review of their polity statement.
I’ve tried to find everything we’ve said about SGM polity and link to it in this post.
This gets a little tricky. Click on the words in green below to read a post, then click on the home tab to return here to click on the next post.
Enjoy!
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/14/jerry-bridges-on-the-controller/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/20/responding-to-leadership-in-sgm/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/28/trust-your-leaders/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/06/26/they-stand-in-the-very-stead-of-god/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/01/more-responsibilities-of-the-sheep/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/10/jesus-on-leadership/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/15/sgm-polity/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/19/mick-jagger-and-cj-mahaney-on-leadership/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/07/21/under-their-thumb/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/24/advice-to-the-lone-ranger/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/26/more-recommendations-for-cj/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/08/28/bible-doctrine-tastes-great-less-filling-burp/
The good stuff starts here….
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/02/polity-episode-1-an-introduction-to-dave-harveys-phantom-menace/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/04/sovereign-grace-ministries-on-elders/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/08/sovereign-grace-ministries-on-elders-2/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/10/polity-episode-2-dave-harveys-quote-in-the-cloned-quote-wars/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/09/19/more-grudem-on-polity-and-apostles/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/10/01/missiology-part-1-entering-the-minefield-of-the-world/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/10/08/missiology-part-2-apostles-epistles-and-missions-oh-my/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2008/12/12/uh-oh-steve-shank-is-here/
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/11/what-to-expect/Polity Scholity Revisited
January 23rd, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Thank you Jim and PK, not only for posting about SGM’s polity, but also for conducting all the research into SGM literature and the Bible. I think I can speak for many in saying that we appreciate it! As for SGM’s polity, I feel that no matter what is actually printed or stated by leadership (it’s all so nicely packaged), any major change would require major surgery (which God can do). Still, I have trouble picturing CJ or any of the other high and mightys rocking such a lucrative boat. Real change would require so much more than changing the A(a)postle status. I think we are talking heart transplant.
January 23rd, 2010 at 7:00 pm
Jim, would you mind explaining what you mean about a “truncated Gospel” or which link you could send me to for that analysis? thanks in advance…..
ps: the first link, the “jerry bridges” one sends me to an “Ooops ” page, fyi.
January 23rd, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Truncated = shortened. A crucified Christ without a Risen Savior is the easiest example.
Regarding the effects of the Gospel, I’d add Rms 7 without Rms 8.
I’m just peeking in- sorry for the truncated answer
January 24th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Jim, very timely to bring up the polity posts again.
January 24th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
I’ve been working through the links above and “Under Their Thumb” is a gem!
Many SG church web sites have a section called “What to Expect on Sunday”. Too bad UTT couldn’t be referenced there for balance; it could prevent many sheep beatings.
This is a post that I may print out and hand to people when they ask me “Weren’t you involved with a Sovereign Grace church? What happened?”
Former SG Pastor
January 24th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
“Truncated = shortened. A crucified Christ without a Risen Savior is the easiest example.”
so it’s “the cross-centered life” without the Resurrection Joy, right?
(See John 11:25-26)
(that’s what I thought you probably meant…just wanted to be sure I understood, thanks!)
January 25th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Another question…..is a ‘truncated’ Gospel truly THE Gospel?
or is it “another gospel” according to Galatians 1:3-7 ?? or 2 Timothy 3:1-5 ? “having the appearance of godliness but denying its power” (2 Timothy 3:5)
January 25th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Whew —The review of the Polity posts is much to take in…and well, its pretty disheartening. And yet revealing.–In the personal stories of those on Refuge and the recent church upheavals, we see the SGM Polity force at work. Leaders really believe they are superiorally standing “in the very stead of God” and the manipulation of the Brethren to follow them and obey them. The Voice of Holy Spirit is edged out. So, so many have been mauled in this ” (disfunctional) “Family of churches”.
SGM attracts people who are serious about serving the Lord. And little by little,the saints swallow disguised deception…not realizing we were no longer abiding wholly in Jesus,Who is the Resurrection and the Life.
We have a real enemy and he is a master counterfeiter, “angel of light”:
In SGM, Manipulation is disguised and counterfeited as Exhortation
Control is disguised and counterfeited as Leadership
Seduction (mentally, sexually and emotionally) is disguised and counterfeited
as Annointing.
Their Polity is a polutant, that is invisibly breathed in by by the congregants.
There are no words to describe our depth of thankfulness to the Lord for bringing us through a 2 year ordeal with SGM—through soooooooo many hoops and meetings—to see what SGM is really all about ”behind the scenes”. We are thankful to once again walk
as “Bereans” and search out Gods Word and seek the guidance of Holy Spirit. To joyfully proclaim the finished work of the Cross—the victory of the empty tomb—listening to Him and knowing Him..and reaching out to others…because Jesus loves them, this I know.
Shalom Brothers and Sisters
January 25th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Waters,
Very well stated. ”… a polutant, that is invisibly breathed in by by the congregants.”
January 25th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Waters, Excellent, excellent post! Thank you so much. Hearing that CJ has been asked to speak at the Southern Baptist Pastors’ Conference is extremely alarming! Blow the trumpet so that the Baptists will be aware of great DANGER in their midst!!!
January 25th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Waters said, “We have a real enemy and he is a master counterfeiter, “angel of light”:
In SGM, Manipulation is disguised and counterfeited as Exhortation
Control is disguised and counterfeited as Leadership
Seduction (mentally, sexually and emotionally) is disguised and counterfeited as Anointing.”
This is so accurate and shows such discernment, Waters. Oh, if only SGM pastors and members had such discernment of the “ENEMY WITHIN”!!
January 25th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Fred,
Yes— there is truly much need to be on our knees for the Body of Christ. “Polity Schmolity” (!!!) is a dangerous virus that would seep into wherever it could. For us, the challenge is to keep going forward in our walk with the Lord WHILE engaging in spiritual battle where the Lord directs.
Recall the proclomation of Jesus as He entered the Synagogue and “opened the book,and found the place where it was written, ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,because He has annointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,and recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are downtrodden,to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.’ “ (Luke 4: 17-19)…”and He began to say to them,’Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.’” (verse 21)
We Believers are salt and light as we share this Gospel of deliverance and redemption.
And indeed,I carry no burden to prioritize being “a joy to pastor”, as CJ has exhorted (manipulated) SGMers to yoke into.
Matthew 11:29-30: “Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart;and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is kindly and My load is light.” —-Freedom!! As we are seeking and finding rest for our souls because of Christ in us,leading the way………..
January 26th, 2010 at 9:22 am
I believe that this quote has much merit and is worth posting. Joan Johnson writes:
January 28th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
I hate to be a pest, but I have been up in the night wondering about this. So I would ask you, Waters, Jim, FGSP, et al, (PK, are you there?)
IS a “truncated” gospel a new gospel? The Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Or a gospel at all?
Could this be a new topic? I don’t mean to derail anything.
Or is it the 600 lb gorilla in the room?
January 29th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Defended,
Paul didn’t mention the resurrection every time he referenced the cross. CJ and multiple sgm pastors have clearly and accurately defined the Gospel. I’d just like to see sgm pastors realize their lack of balance in their preaching and not save the resurrection for easter.
January 29th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Defended,
If I might add my two cents worth of birdseed: I did some research on the very question you bring up, and studied the word “leaven”, how it grows within the church, ferments, and eventually kills grace. I do agree with Jim that sgm accurately defines the gospel. Do a little investigation on what the bible says about leaven and I believe you will understand where things went wrong.
January 29th, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Jim said: “I’d just like to see sgm pastors realize their lack of balance in their preaching and not save the resurrection for easter.”
Amen, Jim; and if said pastors are in fact practicing expository preaching that seems to be the order of the day in SGM, they can’t swerve away from the resurrection (I just heard one our pastors preach on it from Luke, and it was simply outstanding).
I wanted to take this opportunity to say that I am glad that Jim has revisited this topic, as this is the horse I ride–now publicly within my beloved SGM–and will continue to ride.
These illnesses that raise their heads in our churches are a direct result from poor polity. End of story. Trying to diagnose and treat these illnesses any other way is only playing a rigged bop-the-beaver game at some lame carnival.
Al Mohler, in sharing his testimony of “turning the ship” at Southern Seminary out of the waters of heresy and liberal theology, used the illustration a career Navy friend of his did: “You can turn a ship [destroyer] on a dime, no problem. But you will start to hear splashing as planes and everything else on the deck goes into the water.”
As I read the sgmrefuge blog of late, and from my own experience, I am seeing and hearing those splashes. But there’s still crap on the deck that has to go, and continued prayers and discussion among the sheep that leads to God re-shaping and casting off the detritus from the polity structure is a good thing. Slander and gossip produce death. What I am seeing on this blog has helped facilitate life. Like any other season of sanctification, occasionally we have to deal with sin. Thanks be to God that as Christians we can rely on His forgiveness and healing balm in this process!
Jim and co.: Continue to turn that ship’s wheel, because there are those of us who are indeed grateful for the blood, sweat and tears that are going into it.
–pk
January 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
PK -
Great post!
Thanks,
Former SG Pastor
January 30th, 2010 at 12:54 am
PK — YAY! Nail on the head.
January 30th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
Thankyou all, for the important reminder of the necessity to preach the Resurrection WITH the Cross — this for many years, even before we left SGM,has been perplexing to us. I remember each Easter season thinking “maybe this year we will hear and be reminded of the Resurrection”—but no—honestly the pastor (whichever one it was) would just pick up from last week. Odd–at Christmas time, we had great celebrations and preaching on the birth of Jesus—but Easter season was ignored other than possibly singing a resurrection song. Now why is that??? I donot know. Now we are hearing of pastors preaching on the Resurrection–thats good news—-and hopefully, they are exhorting the congregants to APPROPRIATE the victory of the Resurrection for each and every Believer.
PK stated …”These illnesses that raise their heads in our churches are a direct result from poor polity. End of story.”…Amen!! And so, the poor ( I would use the word ‘destructive’) polity,would need to be actually SEEN as such and ACKNOWLEDGED as such and genuinely REPENTED of as such. Like in the example of Mumford repenting of his destructive teachings in the Shepherding movement. That would be the beginning— for the leader of SGM (Mahaney) to put the axe to the root of SGM polity. Until then, many explosions/implodings like have occured in SGM churches just within a little over a year (Fairfax, Chesapeake, Denver, San Diego, Gilbert, Orlando, Raleigh, Atlanta) will continue to abide by the man-made checklists and nebulous half-truths. We still see and talk to Brethren who have been wounded, lied to, manipulated,and slandered against—this is the bloody field of SGM polity ‘fruit’ that causes us to remain in watchful alarm mode.
Jesus Christ the Messiah Redeemer abolished the Law. He said He came to give us Life—abundantly.—In contrast, wherever religous legalism thrives—destruction seeps into individuals (like leaven)….men are emasculated ** women arenot heard** the abuse of women and children is swept under the rug….These are all attributes SGM polity and ruling has produced. Grievous.
The Captain of the ship must realize the full danger he is in the midst of and continuing in—The blast of the alarm bells and shrill whistles continuously calling for ‘all hands on deck’. Why would a captain brush aside and not fully realize and see the danger when alarm bells are continuouslyyyyyyyyyyy going off??? Why would he continue to state that he and his commanders are “standing in the very stead of God” and therfeore according to what they see—its all navigatable??????
Continuing to watch and pray…………..
January 30th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
The polity is definitely off but I don’t believe it is the root of the problem. Fix/change the polity at SGM and you will see that there are still significant problems. Certainly changing the polity will lead to improvements in the movement but I believe that if you dig deep enough you will see that the polity is only a symptom of a much bigger problem. The question then becomes, what is the root problem? Is it moving away from the Holy Spirit? Is it the pride of the leadership starting with CJ and trickling down through the apostles and pastors? Is it the legalism and mancentered and works oriented teaching? Is it error in the Gospel?
Some have recently said that CJ’s teaching on the Gospel is accurate. I disagree. Any teaching that does not lead you into victory and abundant life through Jesus Christ and any teaching that focuses on man and works is not the genuine, true Gospel. CJ”s Gospel has been very mancentered and full of works leading many in SGM into full bondage, no hope, and no victory. If CJ’s take on the Gospel is so accurate, how did the movement get so off? Also, if the polity is the root problem how has it (the polity) caused the culture of elitism, pride, and exclusivity within SGM’s membership? Many, many within SGM membership believe that if you are not part of SGM then you are ……a heathen or definitely less of a Christian.
I am very thankful to hear that pastors within SGM are now preaching on the resurrection. This is indeed good news. However, aren’t they doing this because so many have pointed out on the blogs and in meetings with the pastors that this was lacking? Does this concern those of you still in SGM? Do you really want your pastors preaching on what the blogs are saying they should be preaching on or do you want pastors who are preaching from their heart and from their relationship with Jesus Christ? It is easy to change what you preach on Sundays. It is not so easy to change your heart and your convictions.
January 30th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
New poster here. I recently left SGM and am in a new church with elected elders. This has been interesting food for thought so I thought I’d put in my 2 cents…
First, I love the focus on the resurrection and not just the cross = the whole gospel. Is this actually being taught now in SGM and if so, where?
Second, can the polity of SGM actually be fixed? Suppose that tomorrow an announcement was made that all churches should elect elders. Who would be elected? Probably the care group leaders. Good people, mostly. Respected and loved by their mini flocks. But definitely in the pastors’ “camp theologically and mostly the submissive type (or would not have been “appointed”). So, would the lasting result really bring change?? Or more of the same??
Just wondering…
January 30th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Hi Thinker,
In reply to your question:
“can the polity of SGM actually be fixed? Suppose that tomorrow an announcement was made that all churches should elect elders. Who would be elected? Probably the care group leaders. Good people, mostly. Respected and loved by their mini flocks. But definitely in the pastors’ “camp theologically and mostly the submissive type (or would not have been “appointed”). So, would the lasting result really bring change?? Or more of the same??”
I too, ponder these things from time to time and always end up with, only by the conviction of the Holy Spirit can true repentance come. I think it will take a fundamental change at every level of that organization to truly “fix” SGM’s polity.
That is why I leave them in God’s hands. It is the most kind response I can make after how we were treated.
just my 2 cents.
January 30th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Defender –
Thanks for the response. You’re absolutely right. It’s not so much a matter of changing structure or organization as changing hearts.
I really appreciate your graciousness, as I have read your story and it is far worse than mine.
I go back and forth (like Jim does, it seems) over whether SGM can be “redeemed”.
This is a great reminder. ”With God all things are possible” (if it is His will, which we, of course, do not know…)
Thanks again.
January 30th, 2010 at 10:00 pm
Fred, Defender, and Thinker,
True points—really,only through the leaders responses to the conviction of Holy Spirit could SGM polity BEGIN to be exploded .— Fred, I wonder—since there has been so much prayer; intercession; bringing truth; unveiling of horriffic authoritative counsel and control; meetings; hoop jumping, etc etc etc—-why/how have said leaders remained separated from responsibility or seeing what they have created? Not seeing them led by CJ in great brokenness over all the casualties SGM structure has produced…but instead CJ as recently as this summer continuing to preach that SGM congregants should esteem their pastors to the point of striving to be a joy to their pastor?? Why the focus on pastors instead of Jesus—knowing Him—and delighting in Him?? –Sadly, it looks like a picture of self-worship– (Thus all the implosions we have witnessed?) —So many layers—The Dunamis power of God is needed…and God is able as we know…….
January 31st, 2010 at 12:51 am
The way I feel about God’s people, including us in SGM, is very well expressed in the quote below. I am praying and working to see God glorified in this situation.
“I love Thy kingdom, Lord,
The house of Thine abode,
The church our blessed Redeemer saved
With His own precious blood.
I love Thy church, O God.
Her walls before Thee stand,
Dear as the apple of Thine eye,
And written on Thy hand.
For her my tears shall fall
For her my prayers ascend,
To her my cares and toils be given
Till toils and cares shall end.”
-Timothy Dwight (1800)
January 31st, 2010 at 8:16 am
Nice poem – is this a song? I took the liberty of adding a couple verses (not to contradict, just to add):
I love thy people, Lord
For they’re the ones inside
The walls of stone and windows glass
In You do we abide
And if the church should ever rise
To take your place, my Lord
May you arrest the people’s hearts
To come back to your Word
For them my tears shall fall
For them my prayers ascend
And if the flock from you should stray
May buildings come to end
January 31st, 2010 at 10:21 am
Thankyou, SGMS
Thankyou, Thinker, for bringing your ‘pen to paper’ identifying who the church is!
And this Sunday morning we pray for Gods people:
Eph 1: 7-23—- “Let us keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father,may give to us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that we may know Him better.Oh Lord, cause the eyes of our heart to be enlightened in order that we may know the hope to which You have called us, the riches of Your glorious inheritance in we, the saints, and Your incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of Your mighty strength, which You exerted in Christ when You raised Him from the dead and seated Him at Your right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all power and dominion, and every title that can be given,not only in the present age but also in the one to come. God placed all things under His feet and appointed HIM to be head over everything for the church, Which is HIS body, the fullness of Him who fills everything in every way.”
January 31st, 2010 at 10:41 am
Fred said:
“The polity is definitely off but I don’t believe it is the root of the problem. Fix/change the polity at SGM and you will see that there are still significant problems. Certainly changing the polity will lead to improvements in the movement but I believe that if you dig deep enough you will see that the polity is only a symptom of a much bigger problem. ”
Fred I would agree with you that polity isn’t the only problem with SGM. One thing that changing their polity including have the pastors in each church accountable to a board of directors is that would more easily allow the other changes to happen. The group and local churches wouldn’t be run by just a few men (in some cases just one man) as they currently are but these leaders would report to and have to answer to this board of elders.
Having this type of structure certainly wouldn’t guarantee change but would make it morw probable. Change is still dependent on having men that are humble and see what God wants vs. trying to do their own agenda. At least with this change the leaders couldn’t as easily tell members either accept this or you can leave or where the leaders even “ask” members to leave.
One big problem with SGM IMO is that it functions like a “submissive pyramid” where those who move up in the organization move up based on how well they are submissive to those above them. People who question policies and question those above them don’t move up the “pyramid.” Changing the polity might help get rid of this type of culture. Changing this submissive culture would also bring about other changes that are needed.
January 31st, 2010 at 11:02 am
Steve— The “Random Quote” Jim posts on the ledger speaks to what you bring up”
“……Dictotorial measures make lesser men craven and dependent,stunting their true growth. But it also has its harmful effects on the **’lords over Gods heritage’ . It makes them egotistical and self-serving.”— Pastor Walter J Chantry
***['lord over Gods heritage' would, in SGM, be pastors who preach that they are: themselves operating in the 'very stead of God'*** requiring congregants to be a 'joy to pastor'***and seeing themselves as the final word as they are "guardians over their flocks souls"]
January 31st, 2010 at 11:44 am
Thinker-welcome! We’re glad you’re here. I like the “may buildings come to an end”
Defended-a scenario in which CGLs became “lay elders” (there is no such thing) would clearly change nothing.
What if the congregation decided who was qualified to lead the congregation?
When Timothy appointed elders in Ephesus, do we think that he imported these men from other areas and imposed them on the locals?
Is it possible that he appointed men who were already recognized in their community as elders?
January 31st, 2010 at 12:38 pm
With so many leaving SGM churches in the last 2 years, how many “free” thinkers are left behind? How many are still there that are sold out to Jesus Christ, submissive to Him and not to SGM and their pastors? Even choosing elders from the congregation at this point is suspect to me. “Apostles, pastors, inner circle, middle circle and then those on the far outside” – that’ how one SGMer described the church to me. Which circle do you think the elders would come from? Someone mentioned that in most cases, care group leaders are chosen based on their submissiveness to the leadership. Unfortunately, elders would most likely come from this same group. I could see elections being set up, but I believe that it would be business as usual and it would all be for show – a sham! Just a side note, when Sunday morning prayer and prophetic groups were chosen (of course by the pastors) in our former SGM church, the people asked to join were all “inner circle” people.
One positive result of so much being exposed and so many leaving (from what I hear) is that the middle and outer circles are being treated better. Let’s hope that this is a permanent change and not just temporary, trying to keep people from leaving the church. This is wonderful news but isn’t it sad, that before everything erupted, they were treated so badly, so rejected and actually looked down upon by those in the inner circle.
January 31st, 2010 at 12:46 pm
“POLITY SCHMOLITY” Great title for a great thread! Excellent job Jim, and fellow SGM Refugees.
Here is my redundant 2 cents again.
I do not see the word “polity” in the Bible. So instead of trying to change polity
how about we just get rid of this so called polity all together. Is the leading of the Holy Spirit not enough? Is the fact that “where two or more are gathered in His Name, the Lord is in their mist”, not enough? Do we need “leaders” telling us what to do and how to do it? Are we afraid of chaos and confusion? What do you call what’s out there now?
Most of us on this blog have many years in the Lord. So I would say that most of us ARE leaders and teachers! We are learning from each other on a daily basis as we read and follow this blog. THIS IS CHURCH! We are gathering in His Name right here and fellowshipping, and encoraging one another.
“Let us fix our eyes on JESUS, the Author and Perfecter of faith!” HE IS OUR PERFECTER, not polity!
I read a book about the existing structure of the church , and the author said we need a CDO, not a CEO. CDO stood for Chief Destruction Officer to tear down the existing structure, not remodel it. My personal view is that there is no need for denominations, or “famlies” of churches. There is only ONE church, and only ONE faith, and only ONE Lord! Anything that separates us, whether it be denominations, their statements of faith, polity, etc, is the spirit of antichrist. There is ONE body, with CHRIST and HE ALONE as the Head of the Church. He ALONE is the TRUE Senior Pastor, Lead Apostle, Head Elder, etc. Let’s give glory where glory is due – To HIM ALONE!
January 31st, 2010 at 1:58 pm
How many are still there that are sold out to Jesus Christ, submissive to Him and not to SGM and their pastors?
Good question, Fred. From what the Bible says, the wheat and tares will grow together until it is time to separate them. I suppose it is like that in any church. Sheep or goat? Oil lamp filled or empty?
As you said, any changes would probably be “business as usual” unless hearts are effected, as in submission to Jesus first. This whole issue is so much more serious than church government. So much more serious.
January 31st, 2010 at 2:05 pm
Canary, you are so right – this issue is so much more serious than church government! I have been thinking a lot about the wheat and tares lately. Really brings on the fear of God as I think about this!
January 31st, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Waters
Thanks for sharing that quote of what someone shared in the past. It says about the same thing.
Here is something Abraham Lincoln said:
“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
— Abraham Lincoln
Sadly it appears that the leaders in SGM, especially the high ranking leaders, have failed this test.
As has been said before, with all the teaching SGM does on “indwelling sin” and how much they like to say how “imperfect” their leaders are, it is shocking how few checks and balances exist within the leadership structure of SGM.
Thus again, they may say they believe one thing but their actions show they really don’t believe that or at least when it applies to leaders.
January 31st, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Fred,
Amen! When I hear of someone dying, especially someone young, my heart is sometimes filled with dread for that person. Is he with Jesus? Or is he standing in the silence of Sheol, realizing that he’d lived under a false gospel, and that he is eternally separated from a Living God that he never really knew? Oh, the horror!
This especially makes me fearful for the goats and the tare, those who believe they are safe in God, but are not. That is why I say that the issue here is so much more serious than church government. Pastors may preach the right words, but do they free up the saints to live in grace? A Gospel filled with leaven is not the true Gospel. Does the true Gospel lead to slavery? Does it lead to a heavy burden that crushes the grace in a person? No!
You are right – this should stir the fear of God in us all. It is why I keep posting here, hoping that some will find freedom from false doctrines that enslave their soul – praying that they won’t wake up one day in Sheol, having been a tare instead of wheat. That could have been me. THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME!!!
February 1st, 2010 at 9:49 am
WOW Canary! Excellent post! My heart is in exactly the same place with concern for those under a false Gospel and those who are in grave danger. That is why I post here as well.
February 1st, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Fred,
February 1st, 2010 at 3:33 pm
Pastors may preach the right words, but do they free up the saints to live in grace? A Gospel filled with leaven is not the true Gospel. Does the true Gospel lead to slavery? Does it lead to a heavy burden that crushes the grace in a person? No!
Brilliant reasoning, Canary!
Thanks to all for taking this question of the Gospel that is being preached at SGM so thoughtfully.
My one lame little thought is that what is comprehended, is NOT necessarily what is communicated. Thus the 600lb gorilla in the room. Canary, Fred, and others, I think you have thoughtfully made a case that is grievous but careful and discerning. Thanks also for the pointing to leaven, goats and tares. Very scary indeed. Have mercy on us all, Lord Jesus!
February 1st, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Amen, Defended. Lord have mercy!