Jan
21
You’ve received Danny’s email. Read points 5 and 6 very carefully. Notice what the evaluation team will and will not address.
“There are several issues in the list above that the rest of the leadership team would agree needs to be pursued…”
“However, there is significant disagreement with the other points listed…”
If the members I’ve communicated with are in any way indicative of the general feeling among the membership, it seems that “there is significant disagreement” between the leadership team and the members of MLC.
“Lack of humility in Danny and Benny in response to the concerns brought to them in recent months by members of the church. ”
This point seems to have been left out of the list of issues they agree about. Unfortunately, I think this is the major one to people I know, and certainly a huge concern cited in the comments on the Metro Life post.
James 3:13-18 “Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.”
Thanks for starting a new post, Jim. It will be easier to page down in the comments. I’m sure there will be many today! And thanks for running this board. I may not agree with how everything is said by everyone, but it’s a valuable place to voice our hearts.
MetroStillPrayingForMyPastors
You’ve heard from the very small percentage of church members who check sites that are critical of what they are involved in. It seems relatively safe to say this doesn’t represent the general feeling among the membership.
Joe Anderson
Greeetings, don’t know if this is posted in its entirety somewhere, but what follows is the email that was sent yesterday by Danny and the Metro team.
Greetings to you all!
After our churchwide meeting on January 6th, we began to hear back from many of you on the items that were and were not helpful to you as we all processed the sad news of Todd Twining’s resignation.
Although we tried to be specific and concise in our announcement, it didn’t prove to be as helpful as we’d hoped. The entire leadership team worked together in crafting that announcement – including Todd. We were all in agreement that it communicated where we were at the time and what had transpired that week. However, as the week continued on and we talked to many in the church that had questions (thank you so much for sharing so honestly with us!), we realized that some things needed to be clarified and weren’t as clear as we had intended.
I’m sending this information by email because we are well aware there are those who are not able to be with us on any given Sunday and we wanted to reach as many of our members as possible with these clarifications. Hopefully, having this in writing will give you an added opportunity to prayerfully consider what is being communicated.
I’ve taken care to address the questions we have been getting the most. Again, the whole team, including Todd, has looked this over and made helpful edits. It has also changed in many places as a result of getting with all the homegroup and ministry team leaders last Sunday afternoon. They shared what they have been hearing in their groups, which proved to be very helpful in clarifying the most important issues to address.
Paul appealed to the Ephesians (4:1-3), “I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” This is what we are earnestly pursuing in making these clarifications.
At the end of this email, is the actual announcement I made at the family meeting for you to look over. But I wanted to restate or clarify a number of things:
1. Todd’s decision to resign was not a “surprise” to us as a leadership team in the sense that we had no idea that this was a possibility. In letting the church know that we weren’t prepared for it, all I intended to communicate was that we had just gotten the resignation letter a couple of days before, had not had any discussion with Todd at all about who might replace him and take care of his responsibilities, so we didn’t have anything in place to announce. We weren’t surprised by his actual resignation; we just weren’t prepared to answer the questions we expected from the church.
2. This was not a spontaneous decision on Todd’s part nor was it the result of the rest of the team desiring for Todd to resign. We had been talking, praying, evaluating, and seeking counsel from others, etc. as a team for a long time about the issues he raised in his resignation letter. The discussions began most intensely and intentionally at the end of 2008 and continued throughout 2009.
3. In his resignation letter, Todd gave his effective date as February 1st. Currently, he is busy with the details of the move, transferring his responsibilities, and meeting with all those who have desired to talk with him. He and Michelle have been “wonderfully exhausted” by the lavish outpouring of love from the church and testimonies shared of what their life and ministry has meant to so many of you. It has been a joy to see that taking place!
4. At the meeting, we did not list the specific issues, disagreements and concerns that Todd shared in his resignation letter because we were in the process of sorting through them as a team and asking for help in that process.
Not sharing them was not an attempt to hold anything back, we just thought it was premature. His concerns had been shared in the context of a process of evaluation and assessment that is a lifestyle for us as local elders. It’s a practice that has brought much fruit over the years as we prayerfully look at what we’ve done, what we’re doing and where we’re going as a church – and individually, as well.
During 2009, especially in light of our upcoming 25th anniversary, we spent a great deal of time in this process – looking for evidences of grace (of which there are many!) and evaluating areas that need to change or be adjusted. Throughout these discussions, every member of the team expressed their perspective on what they see is and isn’t bearing fruit. Throughout the year, we had also heard from a number of people in the church, both young and old, that gave us their perspective on the health and current state of the church and our ministries and outreaches. All this is part of what we are sharing with the assessment team from Sovereign Grace Ministries.
5. The specific reasons Todd listed for his resignation in the letter he gave to the leadership team are:
Todd would hold a view that Danny has abdicated his leadership and that this lack of leadership from Danny and his being gone as much as he has in serving the region has had a negative effect on the local church. Added to this would be the personal family issues that Danny has faced in the last three years. These have been a distraction from his responsibilities.
The role and function of the executive pastor in relationship to the senior pastor. There are aspects of Benny’s leadership that Todd disagrees with and cannot follow. These however are traced back to Danny’s absence in recent years.
He considers the church’s focus on women’s ministry to be at times, inordinate, and sees a lack of commensurate ministry to the men.
Ongoing theological concerns with Sovereign Grace Ministries in the areas of pneumatology, missiology and polity.
Insufficient and ineffective communication amongst the staff and the church.
Lack of pastoral follow up with church members by the pastoral staff.
Lack of humility in Danny and Benny in response to the concerns brought to them in recent months by members of the church.
Lack of relational connectedness and care among the leadership team at Metro. Todd and Michelle feel very connected relationally to our church body, but their perspective would be that there has been neglect in this area by Danny and Benny among the leadership team couples.
Disagreement with the way Sovereign Grace Ministries handled the resignation of Brent Detwiler and subsequent closing down of the church plant in Mooresville, NC.
Disagreement with how the current SGM assessment team for Metro is being conducted.
In addition, he stated that he believed the Lord was leading them back to Maryland to be close to their family and to assist them during a time of significant health challenges.
6. There are several issues in the list above that the rest of the leadership team would agree needs to be pursued: Danny’s capacity and time devoted to serving the region, the role of the executive pastor, the priority of men’s and women’s ministry in the life of the church, communication with the church, and pastoral follow up. However, there is significant disagreement with the other points listed as well as the conclusions Todd has come to about all of these issues. That was another reason we were pursuing outside help.
We have faith that God will use all that we are hearing from the leadership team, church staff, homegroup and ministry team leaders, members of the church and now this assessment team to help us see things from His perspective!
7. I want to be clear on the fact, though, that we are not in conflict or fighting one another as a team. There is disagreement and we have different perspectives. But it is our experience that situations like this expose character and sin issues in our lives that need to be dealt with. So there have been many opportunities for repentance and crying out to God for change. These men love each other! They are committed to each others’ highest good.
Disagreements and debate have been something that have been common in our life together as a church all these years. It seems to be common in our marriages, families, businesses and church relationships as well. Honestly, sorting out these differences and getting help from others as necessary, has always proven to bear much fruit! That is our expectation in this situation as well.
8. Looking back on the family meeting, I realize that I could have communicated much better. We all worked together on this, trying to do our best but we have since seen the need to send these clarifications. I am aware that even this email has its limitations but I sincerely hope it proves to be helpful.
From the day we received Todd’s letter, many in the church were already aware of the situation and the news was traveling fast, so we thought it imperative that we get everyone together immediately. But please know – we have nothing to hide and there is (and was) no attempt to put a spin on the facts.
I had a wonderful meeting with Todd last Friday and again yesterday. We are doing well as friends. And though there are many temptations during a stressful time like this, we both want to glorify God in this process and the rest of the leadership team is right there with us.
9. My appeal, and Todd’s as well, would be that whatever questions, concerns, suspicions, or doubts you may have about what is going on, please don’t hesitate to come and to talk to us directly. Please don’t go to others to confirm your perspective so you can strengthen your position with, “I’m not the only one.” If you were the only one, we still want to hear it!
In talking with each of you, we want to answer any questions you may have as best we can, but you have our word, we will continue to pursue all that God has for us, avoiding nothing.
10. There have been many questions about the Sovereign Grace Ministries assessment team as well. If you are familiar with Peacemakers Ministry, this is an approach that they highly recommend. It’s one of the many ways that SGM seeks to serve the local church.
Proverbs 11:14 makes it clear that “in an abundance of counselors there is safety.” We requested this help from SGM ourselves – it was our initiation. No one on the leadership team is “in trouble” or being singled out. Dave Harvey, who gives oversight to all the men that give care to SGM churches, led us through the selection of three men to form this assessment team (Bob Kauflin, Mickey Connolly and Jim Britt). We have asked this team to listen, observe, and then make suggestions for us to consider.
The assessment team will also be talking to a number of our church members, asking for their perspective as well. The team will be coming to be with us for the first time during the last week of this month. Please pray for us as we pursue all God has for us in this process.
The following is what they hope to help us with:
Scope of Inquiry
Team roles
Has Metro’s commitment to serve the region and the amount of time Danny is gone in any way undermined the local team’s effectiveness?
Are each of the pastors positioned to serve in the most fruitful way?
Do the members of the pastoral team have a unified understanding and practice of plurality and polity?
Is the pastoral team united in their philosophy of women’s and men’s ministry?
Team relationships
Do the members of the pastoral team (and their wives) have clear, biblical and articulated expectations for their relationships with each other?
How well do the pastors and wives identify potential heart desires/motives behind relational expectations?
Where does the pastoral team need to improve in resolving conflict and handling disagreements?
Are the wives of the pastors receiving adequate care and leadership from their husbands?
Are Danny & Melodye receiving adequate and specific care in this season?
11. We don’t expect this process to take more than 2-3 months but as this evaluation process progresses, we will be sharing with the church what we are learning and any changes that are being recommended.
Again, we are expectant and faith-filled for how the Holy Spirit will use this for our good and His glory!
12. Finally, the Twinings’ relocation to Maryland and their desire to be there to care for their family members and be close to their extended family is not a primary factor in all this. It is simply the direction they are receiving from the Lord as to where they are to go from here.
In mentioning this at our meeting, my intention was to let you know what their plans were because I knew everyone would wonder. It would be an understatement to say that they are excited about going “home”. They have been away from their extended family for 15 years and they are looking forward to this aspect of the move.
Once there, the Twinings will be taking a three month sabbatical in Maryland to prayerfully consider what the Lord has next for them. As you may be experiencing yourself, this is an emotional and challenging time for them. It’s not a good time to be making a number of long term decisions at once. So, for those who are wondering, Todd told me last Friday that they will be waiting until later to decide about their future involvement in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I Peter 3:8-9 says, “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.” Pursuing these things is hard work! The good news is that we can all draw from the “artesian well” of grace that has been provided for us in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Let us pray for, encourage and bless one another during this time.
Grateful for the privilege of being a part of this spiritual family,
Danny
Announcement to the Church
January 6, 2010
Thank you so much for changing your plans on such short notice to make this gathering possible. It is yet another demonstration of your love for this church and for our Savior!
Over the years that we have been together as a church, there have been a handful of occasions like this where a situation would arise that needed our immediate attention. We are a spiritual family and getting together like this and talking things over is a part of our church life. We hope to care for you as best we can and help as the Holy Spirit enables us.
You may have noticed that Dave Harvey and Bob Kauflin are with us tonight! Welcome! They just flew in today to serve us and help us.
I have some difficult and sad news for you tonight. Last Sunday, after our service, Todd Twining gave me his letter of resignation from serving as an elder here at Metro Life Church.
He is also withdrawing their membership from Metro as a family and is praying about their future involvement in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Let me highlight this: this is not an issue of moral failure nor is this an issue of church discipline. Instead, we are talking about a man who has sought the Lord on behalf of his family and has come to an important decision.
I know this comes as a surprise, but we wanted to have this time to explain the developments behind this decision.
Todd and Michelle feel that this decision is the leading of the Holy Spirit for their lives and that this is the best direction for their family and for their future involvement in ministry. They sincerely desire to obey the Lord and follow His leading. We certainly want to honor that.
Naturally, our first reaction is “Why?”
I wanted to share on behalf of the Twinings and the leadership team that while we might not fully understand why the Lord would lead them in this way and there are many decisions to be made in the coming weeks, it was important for us to meet tonight and share with you what we do know. We thought it would be important for you to hear this from us directly, not through the grapevine.
The answer to the “why” question could be summarized in this way:
1. Certain areas of disagreement concerning leadership practice here at MLC
2. A lack of relational connection to our leadership team here
3. They have a sincere desire to relocate to where their family lives in Maryland
Concerning the disagreements he has, we wanted to make it clear that the leadership team at MLC acknowledges that there are important issues to sort through and problems that we have been encountering during this last year. We are not where we want to be as a team on these issues and we haven’t seen the improvement needed. So last November, we invited SGM to help us sort through these issues and help us with an evaluation and assessment.
As we began to prepare for this assessment however, Todd let us know that he felt his concerns necessitated that they needed to leave. In addition, he and Michelle have felt for quite some time that there was a need for them to move back to Maryland and help with some very serious health problems some of their family members there are going through. They have tried their best to care for them from a distance but that has proven to be more and more difficult to do effectively from so far away.
You may recall that I communicated to you in our churchwide meeting last August that, as we were looking forward toward our 25th anniversary year, we had spent a great deal of time since January taking a fresh look at all that we are doing as a church, each of our roles as members of this leadership team and seeking the Lord for direction for the next 25 years.
After that August churchwide meeting, we continued to pursue all the Lord has for us and also had the privilege of hearing from those of you who have been sharing your heart with us as well. It has been a challenging time but very, very profitable time as well. We are committed to reality and open communication and we benefit so much from hearing from you. That as well is a high value to us: being available and making it easy for you to share what you are praying about and the observations you have.
When we asked for help, Dave Harvey responded immediately by helping us formulate a strategic plan to have three men (Bob Kauflin – worship/SGM, Mickey Connolly – Sr. Pastor in Charlotte and Jim Britt – Sr. Pastor in Greenville and former member of our pastoral staff here) = an assessment team, to come and spend time with us, draw us out and offer their wisdom, perspective and counsel. We are trusting the Lord to use them to help us and I have much faith for what their involvement can bring to the table as we seek the Lord’s will for our lives and this church.
It was our expectation and hope that Todd would be a part of this process and share his perspective with the assessment team along with the rest of us. He included in his letter however that he did not desire to be a part of that process and set his resignation effective date for just a few weeks away. We certainly want to honor his request. Today was to be our initial interview with this assessment team. That process will still be pursued of course, but we needed to walk through this transition first.
Yesterday morning we spent several hours with Todd and heard his perspective, listened as he shared his heart, talked some of these things over and ultimately realized that his desire to relocate was compelling. We all agreed that it was in his best interest to pursue this move.
At that point, it then became our desire to bless our friend and express our support to him as he pursues what God has for him. Our “next step” is to find out what we can do to serve them in this transition. A lot of the other issues (who is going to assume his responsibilities and other things like that) will be addressed in the weeks to come.
In case anyone is tempted to speculate, there’s nothing more is at work here- we’re just a team of men who are earnestly trying to serve our brother who has concluded he is not in faith to continue to be a part of MLC.
This development gives us all a fresh opportunity to both put our trust and confidence in God alone - as well as to express our gratefulness to God and the Twinings for the gift that they have been to us for the last seven years. We have benefited so much from the way he has served us and this family is dearly loved at MLC!
Todd wanted me to communicate as well that he and his family have deep affection for you and find this decision a very difficult one for them. They are trusting God for their future.
We are all committed to glorifying God throughout this process!
I’m sure you have questions. Our entire leadership team will be available tonight and in the days to come to answer your questions as best we can and care for you in any way possible. There are many things yet to be determined, but our love for Todd, Michelle, Michael and Harrison will continue across the miles!
Joe-Sorry to disagree, but that is just not true based on the calls and emails i have received. There are a lot of people on the brink of leaving for a variety of reasons, but what Todd has mentioned is being spun. Typical of all the churches that had pastors removed from their posts or resigned because of the heavy handed polity and lack of compassion for those who come for councilling. Please don’t try to brush this under the rug. You should know better!!!!
BTW, if they really wanted to bring in an evaluation team from the outside, wouldn’t you bring in pastors that aren’t part SGM, since it is the overall policies and leadership of SGM that is being called into question. Audits usually mean someone tryuly from the outside. In this case maybe pastors from entirely different fellowships. things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm.
Todd’s resignation letter contained the reasons why Todd chose to resign. There were more reasons given in the letter than were shared in the family meeting. According to Danny’s email message, Todd and Danny collaborated on what was shared in the family meeting so that would imply that Todd didn’t want the other reasons to be shared at the family meeting. If that is the case then perhaps this should have been communicated at the family meeting. Something like “Todd has requested that we only share the following 3 reasons for his resignation at this time, but there are more reasons that we will share in a family meeting or email next week.” The instruction to “go see a pastor if you have any questions” didn’t make sense. No need to “go alone” (which applies to confronting sin) to see a pastor.
I’m satisfied with the email message. What I mean is that now I am at least informed.
Will wait and see what, if any, changes are made as a result of the evaluation being done by SGM.
Joseph,
You have no idea how many people I’ve heard from. You read my blog. You have no access to my inbox.
Last week we had 9042 unique visitors. This week, we’re tracking higher. The amount of commenters has always been small compared to our readership, and the real action has always been offline.
Having said that, I’m no statistician. I don’t even know how many members MCL has, and I don’t keep email/phone call stats.
Hence the “if”.
You presume much, sir, including the “type” of person who reads, comments, calls, or emails.
Regarding offline communication, I’ve always heard from those who absolutely hate the fact that this blog exists, and think I’m completely wrong for creating this monster, but who agree with much of what I’ve said.
For a year and a half I’ve heard, “would you get of the polity thing” more times than I can count.
Since MLC hit the blog, I’m hearing, “now I understand why you hit polity so hard.”
Joseph, MC, and SGM-the natives are very restless. The “polity” pages are very popular these days.
Once again, because I am FOR you, I beg you to drop your self-invented form of government and choose an orthodox model. The problem is far greater than the use of the “a” word.
Wow! I think only the tip of “the ice burg” is in view.
Couple of thoughts -
First, John Galt, thanks for posting the texts.
My reaction to the evaluation team – ugh.
Line that made me want to laugh before I wanted to cry – “When we asked for help, Dave Harvey responded immediately by helping us formulate a strategic plan”. The new pastoral imperative in responding to church crisis – a strategic plan … This statement strikes me like this one: “When the drowning man cried for help, the lifeguard quickly googled a list of swimming classes”.
Though there are rough spots in the missives of the Apostle Jones, this is an improvement on at least 2 of the recent pastoral departures within SGM, IMO.
Interesting statement – Todd’s disagreement with SG’s handling of Brent and the NC church plant failure (and Danny’s disclosure of this).
It sounds like the assessment team will complete their analysis about the time that Todd’s “sabbatical” is up. Probably doesn’t matter. Based on the way SGM has operated over the course of its history, would Todd have any real future with SGM or an SGc? Is there precedent where a pastor with Todd’s high profile made the assertions attributed to him and was returned to the fold (in Todd’s case not at MLC, of course)?
Unasked question that begs to be asked and answered: who failed to care for the apostle who failed to care for the pastors who … ?
Reading yet another chapter in CJ’s unpublished book “Failed Polity”,
Former SG Pastor
Joe, you said:
It seems relatively safe to say this doesn’t represent the general feeling among the membership
Not only that Joe, but the comments, unkind judgements, and divisive criticism are extremely hurtful, offensive, and abusive towards the members of SGM.
They presume that each and every claim of pastoral abuse presented on this board is true without ever hearing from all parties involved. Not that anyone is lying here. But the possibility exists that there could be some misunderstanding, dissagreement, rebellion, not hearing what they wanted to hear, etc., and turn and claim pastoral abuse.
They presume that because they and others have had a bad experience that all of SGM leadership is currupt. You and I both know that as we interact with the members of our church, there is simply no evidence of any widespread heavy-handed, controlling, abusive leadership. And there simply is no real, confirmed proof that there is widespread, pervasive pastoral abuse throughout ALL of SGM ( or legalism, leader worshippers, or blind sheep or church machine, or any other of those offensive remarks made publically).
They presume that Joey would not at all mind having his past sin exposed to 9,000+ people in great detail without his permission.
They presume that disrespectful comments made about the pastors and their families are somehow biblical.
Joe, you and I know differently. And so does the vast majority of SGM.
Jim said “Once again, because I am FOR you, I beg you to drop your self-invented form of government and choose an orthodox model. The problem is far greater than the use of the “a” word.”
YES, thank you Jim — is there a prophecy mic available?
30years,
Once again, your opinion is uninformed. For the record (once again), I don’t believe that all of SGM leadership is corrupt.
I believe that SGM has problems with some of their leaders, and I think it’s more pervasive than CJ will acknowledge.
You’ve used the term “divisive” several time on this blog. Would you please do a search and see how the word divisive is used in Scripture? I’ll give you a hint-in context, one who is divisive is one who spread heresy.
You’ve proven once again that you are completely intoxicated on the kool aid.
Please show me in the NT where divisive means being critical of church leaders in matters where it’s reasonable for reasonable believers to disagree. Even with church leadership.
Square Peg. I wouldn’t call it a prophecy mic, but there’s an open mic. You’re on it.
If it were a prophesy mic, we would have to have an “official” monitoring it.
Jim,
If 75% of all SGM pastors are spiritually abusive to the members of their churches, then you and I would agree that SGM should fold immediately.
So how pervasive is it? You are saying “some” and “more”. You are the initiater and leader of this blog. You are going before 9000 people making serious accusations regarding the men and women of SGM. You are allowing all manner of criticism and judgement to be published.
In order to make these claims, you have the responsibility to provide real, concrete evidence, numbers, facts, research, and all sides of the story to jusify these public claims. Not some vague ideas of what might be happening.
I have thanked you many times for the reform work you are doing behind the scenes. What happens here on this blog, in public, is an entirely different story.
Jim said:
“Regarding offline communication, I’ve always heard from those who absolutely hate the fact that this blog exists, and think I’m completely wrong for creating this monster, but who agree with much of what I’ve said.”
Sadly so many people within SGM have heard SGM’s teaching on what constitutes “gossip” and “slander” for so long that it is ingrained in their mind. It is hard for them to see how SGM uses their definition to keep members in the dark about what is going on and to stifle most questioning since even questioning things can sometimes be considered gossip or slander.
John Galt-thank you for posting the original emails. They were very helpful! I couldn’t agree with you more-any “evaluation team” should be made up of like-minded individuals from outside of SGM, or get a team of two SGM’ers, two Reformed pastors, and two Charismatic pastors. SGM seems eerily insular at times. If there is a hesitancy to do this, one has to wonder why.
Jim-I for one would like to say “Thank you!” I don’t believe that the opinions expressed by others are always helpful, but I also realize that many of them are made by people who are confused, scared (and scarred), hurt, and angry. God can handle these emotions-even if fellow believers cannot! In many ways, this forum has confirmed that it’s not just me-others have the same questions about some of the same issues. So, again, thank you! I find it so interesting that many have said that you dwell on the issue of polity too much. That is a primary reason that I am praying about my continued involvement with SGM.
30 years… tsk! tsk! If you spent more time doing your own homework and seeking out the truth of what really is going on in SGM, I guarantee that you would not have time to post your obvious head-in-the-sand comments here. You would have your hands full… and maybe your eyes would be opened. Maybe. I also guarantee that you would no longer feel compelled to defend those whom you currently defend. You may just find out that the “truth” you so ferociously defend just may not be the truth after all.
And, just for clarification… I don’t know of any instance, on this blog, in email, or phone conversations, that Jim has made any accusations against the laity of SGM. His criticism has only been towards select pastors/leaders, along with timid men who are afraid to approach said leaders.
Do your homework, 30 years… Real homework. Dig in deep… and take your own advice… don’t just be content with one side of the story (your pastors) to justify your cries of “no fair” and “foul” against this blog.
30 years, You accused Jim by writing, “You are allowing all manner of criticism and judgement to be published.” Isn’t that what he is allowing by allowing you to share your thoughts as well? I am sometimes surprised that Jim hasn’t shut off your “prophecy mic” after so many appeals by so many people to read and prayerfully concider the pain and hurt that your beloved leaders have caused, from the top down.
You write about Jim being the leader here and he should blah, blah, blah…….. Well, then let’s hold CJ and his team accountable also for all the damage done in the SG “churches” under them. You seem so ready to defend your beloved leaders, but so slow to weep with those who weep here
30years,
Thanks for your response to my “divisive” comment. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don’t want SGM to fold.
I’ve named a lot of names on this blog. Do you honestly want me to go further and post details of every situation that I’m aware of? Situations in which I’m privy to both sides of the story?
You have no idea how much I know and how little I reveal. I’m not bragging, as it’s nothing to brag about. It is what it is. I’m giving SGM time to clean their house.
I cover for your denomination. You’re welcome.
GratefullyD – Bingo!
If the eyes of those who maintain the party line within SG were truly opened, they still could not see clearly. As many of those who post on this blog know, it is hard to see clearly when your eyes are tear-filled …
Waiting for the One Who will wipe away all tears,
Former SG Pastor
Jim,
Sorry, I forgot to respond to “divisive”. By divisive, I mean a wall or wedge unfairly and unjustly placed between Christians. That is what I mean.
I asked you for a number, not details. You say “some”. You allow Fred and many others to say ”all”. Big difference. What is it? Do you know? This question has never been answered.
It is not a sin to lead in such a way that promotes unity among the members of a church.
It is not a sin to tell someone something they may not want to hear, but need to hear.
It is not a sin to confront sin, where and when appropriate.
Pastors are not required to poll the entire congregation when making decisions.
2 or 3 witnesses can condemn an entire ministry of pastors? How do you know if my pastors at CLC are continuing in sin? And what sin are they continuing in?
Sooooooo, 30 years… your definition of “divisive” is not a Scriptural definition… that’s where I was getting confused, as Jim’s definition is based on the Word of God and yours is based on… well… Webster’s??
And as far as “allowing”… tsk! tsk! tsk! You are not dealing with the authoritarian, controlling entity you are used to, 30 years! We don’t expect our guests to follow along blindly and submissively to our views. (I don’t hold that against you, though… I’m sure that’s something you are not used to.) Again, do your own homework… you may be very surprised at what slithers out from under the rock (SGM) you kick! A word of advice, though, if you choose to “have the responsibility to provide real, concrete evidence, numbers, facts, research, and all sides of the story to jusify these public claims. Not some vague ideas of what might be happening.” (sic) Wear boots, gloves, and carry a shovel… you will need all three to find your way out… I’m just sayin’ is all…
30years,
I stand by my use of the word ALL! I absolutely do believe that there is a thread running throughout ALL of SGM that is wrong, incorrect, and in error because I believe that their polity is off, many of their doctrines are off, including but not limited to the focus on sin and lack of teaching and focus on the WHOLE Gospel including the resurrection. Also, I believe that the training and teaching of pastors throughout the WHOLE movement has not been biblical but has been distorted as well as the counseling model that they have used (such as focusing on the “sin” of the victim and not the guilty perpetrator). Much more that I could say including their “apostles” but for time sake, I will conclude that I believe the very foundation of SGM is off. If the foundation is off and is in eror then what has been built on top will be off as well. That is why we see the widespsread abuse, control, manipulation, wrong doctrine, etc throughout the WHOLE movement! Let’s see: Chesapeake, Denver, Fairfax, Atlanta, and now Orlando (Metro). Do we see a pattern here? God will not be mocked and He is not pleased with the deception and cover up of wrong doing, abuse, control, manipulation, lack of care of his children, etc by the leaders of SGM!
PS If things were really changing and reform was really occuring, why would Todd have left Metro and SGM altogether? Why would Gene Emerson still be an apostle and pastor and why would BC still be a pastor in Chesapeake?
PS CJ knows all of this. Why is he allowing this to continue?
John Galt
Thanks for posting the emails.
One thought I have on these emails is that I surprised that MLC’ Leadership has admitted as much as they have, i.e. they shared details of some the issues the leaving pastor had with SGM. From what I have seen, that is unusual. I wonder if the were pressured to do so. Usually SGM is pretty quiet on issues.
In other cases when a pastor steps down they state the “lack of gifting” is usually the phrase used to “explain” why someone is leaving. Of course this is a little different since it appears the pastor is resigning vs. SGM Leadership having the pastor step down.
I remember hearing how quiet it was kept that Brent D was stepping down and the church plant cancelled.
30years -
I don’t normally feed trolls but it’s a slow day.
Maybe you can do a bit of digging on your side of the fence and find out about a couple of the churches blogged about over the past year or so here and at Survivors. Your presentation of facts from the SG perspective would enlighten those of us here who attempted to get those facts and were unable to do so. Here is a partial list to get you started: Fairfax, Chesapeake, San Diego, Gilbert, Brooklyn, Pleasanton, Westminster, NC/Brent’s plant … pick a couple. What were the issues from the SG perspective? What process did SG local and corporate leadership follow to resolve issues at the local level? How did they resolve situations that were above the local level?
I have no doubt that your 30 years is SG have been bliss. I have no doubt that many have suffered in whatever time they spent associated with SG.
Former SG Pastor
30 years,
I own my own business. My last day off was Christmas day. I’m sorry that I don’t have the time to do the statistical analysis you’re looking for.
Ask CJ.
I think this whole situation is 1. sad. but 2 – very interesting. I’m impressed the pastors divulged into the amount of information they did regarding Todd’s departure. Especially because it involves him disagreeing with them.
I also think this is significant because it’s a pastor stepping down with very clear reasons as to why. I’m guessing the pastors have much more information as to what is really going on in SGM than the members do. If a pastor has a problem with it and isn’t buying into the manipulation to the point of stepping down, I’d think it means it’s much bigger than we realize it is… which scares me.
30years,
How can you put a number on something being covered up? It’s impossible. Jim and others say “some” or “most” because they have been exposed to such an astounding number of accounts of abuse or problems within SGM. SGM isn’t going to come out and report on what percent of their pastors are abusive. I don’t think it’s appropriate to say “all”, but I think it’s fair for Jim and Carole and others to make these statements based on knowledge they have of abuse occurring.
30 Years said (to Jim):
“I have thanked you many times for the reform work you are doing behind the scenes. What happens here on this blog, in public, is an entirely different story.”
So “30 years” what is your suggested alternative to bring about change within SGM since you don’t think these blogs are proper but you are acknowledging the need for at least some “reform” within SGM?
I am quite sure that there wouldn’t be nearly the call for reform and pressure on SGM leaders if these blogs didn’t exist. Unfortunately, in the past the leaders could do much of what they did in secrecy. Now these leaders know that there is always the risk that their actions will be reported on one of these blogs. I am sure it makes them more “gun shy” of doing things they use to more freely in the past.
Since you seem to think there is a problem I am just wondering what you think the solution is and a better way to bring about needed reform.
I agree with Marian that it is surprising that Danny provided Todd’s reasons for leaving. This has not been the case at other times in other SG churches when pastors left.
Jim and Carole,
I have done my homework. I have read every word of every story on this blog. I have many years of real Christian life at CLC with joys, hardships, struggles, trials, and much grace. Most importantly, I have my own personal relationship with Jesus.
What makes you think I am blindly submitting? You have absolutely no way of making that determination other than presumption.
For the last time ever, one of the main points on this blog is that the SGM pastors are spiritually abusive. Jim says some, and does not know how many. Fred and many others believe all.
In order to justify this extremely serious charge, there must be enough proven cases of spiritual abuse to justify this public proclaimation.
No one on this board has any idea how many proven cases of actual , real abuse exist.
So you assume, presume, take the stories at face value, believe the worst and point fingers at the pastor and cry “abuse!”. Over and over. Go read the stories. They aren’t proven, but go read them. Of course they accurately represent pastoral abuse. They’re on this blog, aren’t they?.
I’ll be praying for you………….thank you for listening
Best words from 30years – “For the last time ever”. See ya, 30. Don’t let the door hit you on your way out!
Maybe 30 years is really C.J., and he is just trying to protect the “machine” by trying to marginalize the bloggers. Seriously, I just wish 30 years would PRAYERFULLY read the stories here without the SG colored glasses on.
30years,
For the record, I have never said that ALL SGM pastors are abusive. I have said that the WHOLE MOVEMENT has gotten way off! Please do not misquote me.
30years, to tell you the truth, I feel great compassion in my heart for you. You feel such loyalty and such love for your church and your pastors and you just cannot bring yourself to believe that all of this is true. It is heartbreaking and I wish it were not so. The sad truth is 30years, it is true. God is there, giving you the grace to see the truth and honestly, I think you already know that these stories are true. It is hard to accept the fact that people (pastors, apostles) you trusted in and a church you believed in, is not what you thought and believed for 30years that it was. My heart goes out to you brother! God is there with His amazing grace to lead you in the His Truth, not in man’s truth. Even now, I would guess that deep in your heart, you must know it is true. It is definitely hard to swallow. That is for sure. May God pour out blessing upon blessing to you that you may see the truth clearly and have the strength, courage and boldness to take action – action that is truly God glorifying and God pleasing. Action that leads you and your family into the abundant life that Jesus has promised for His children. Action that leads you into victory and freedom in Jesus.
“We press forward for the goal of the upward goal of God in Christ Jesus.
30, Once again putting words in peoples mouths as it suits you. It seemed to me that Fred was saying that the problems effect ALL of SGM, NOT that all SGM pastors are abusive, BIG difference!! This is what Fred said, “This control, manipulation abuse, wrong doctrine, worshipping a church and leaders over Jesus Christ, etc, etc, is THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE MOVEMENT. “ This implies that these things are widespread, it does NOT point to individual pastors as you are accusing. Issues trickle down through SGM in varying degrees to the various churches; they will prove more harmful in some places because individual leaders sinful tendencies in some churches magnify the problems. My pastors were Godly men, they loved the people, but things were still not right.
To me, it just seems like 30years is proving what so many people say about SGM on these blogs. Putting words into people’s mouths as Hope said, which is so manipulative and a lame attempt at turning the blame around at everyone else. Also the fact that he read through every story on the blog, yet still continues to brush everything under the rug – just like the pastors do when there is an issue at hand in their church that they don’t want everyone to find out about.
Thank you 30years, for your example of why SGM has so many un-addressed problems. Now go back to your church and really start evaluating what’s going on.
In this case of the email coming out last night from Danny, it does share some pretty specific points of Todd’s disagreement with SGM and Metro’s leadership specifically. I know I have been calling for SGM leadership to please just communicate with us. We’re adults, and we can handle the truth. Even if it’s ugly, and may make SGM and its leaders look a little foolish and/or inexperienced. We can handle that. Nobody is perfect. I take this further disclosure from Metro’s leadership as a good thing. It seems they are opening up, and communicating. It’s refreshing. Now we have specific things to pray about. Things to discuss. And things we can all work toward improving. Thank you for starting a meaningful dialogue.
30,
You need to take your fingers out of your ears and stop having conversation with YOURSELF. Every time some poses a serious question to you or asks you to consider the biblical implications to a situation, your fingers go in, and your tongue starts wagging to YOURSELF. You are not correcting folks here, you are showing that you are unwilling to listen or consider that there is more than one side to a discussion. The only side of the discussion you hear is YOURS. You consistently demonstrate it by evading questions directed at YOU.
Like Jim’s last, which you forgot and still haven’t answered (as Carole kindly reminded you):
” how the word divisive is used in Scripture?” or maybe
I could go on and on.
Why don’t you try interacting around some of the scriptures and major issues instead of dancing around statistics and someone’s public whipping of Joey? Think about it, you perpetuate the Joey issue, which would be best left to die as Jim has already stated it’s been handled offline, while skirting MAJOR UPHEAVAL in your family of churches. Major on the majors man. The major issues don’t go away because you draw attention to the fact that Joey was a bad boy and was publicly and perhaps improperly corrected. You are attempting to deflect attention from the major issues by knit-picking and rooting like a hog for truffles for statistics and SINNERS on this blog. Guess what 30, we already know that sin happens on this blog, WE were ALL reformed-charismatic Sovereign Gracers like you. We heard that sermon (many times.) The fact that WE sin does not make the issues go away or make Sovereign Grace Ministries any less culpable and in need of reform. hmph. This is a blog not a soapbox, hop down and answer some questions, interact around the thread issue perhaps and be blessed… I’m not the moderator.
Here’s my question 30, which relates to the THREAD, What do you think about the issues which caused Todd to leave, a well loved and well respected pastor known throughout SGM? Does it not concern you at all that they are the same issues that have been mentioned here ad nauseum. This IS about YOUR beloved CLC. Todd’s concerns point to YOUR church; or isn’t CLC still a part of SGM?? You’d rather have statistics about this blog rather than hear this Godly pastor’s testimony regarding YOUR church. If SGM is sick so is CLC.
Thank you Hope for clarifying what I meant! You explained it very well!
30 years,
Even if abuse is not happening with all pastors the fact that it is happening with a handful should be alarming. I attended my former church for twenty years and it wasn’t until we joined with SGM that the pastors changed. I knew these men my whole life and had great respect for them but slowly they started twisting things and slowly there hearts started to change.
Spritiual abuse is a tricky thing. It isn’t something that others can see and we have to trust and believe that our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are telling us the truth. Which I whole heartedly believe they are doing. God has called us to care and carry the burden’s of our siblings in Christ not kick them while they are hurting, and right now we have been given a chance with this blog to be listening, praying, and caring for those hurting. Maybe there isn’t any physical harm or anything tangible that you can see but that doesn’t mean these individuals aren’t spiritually hurting. Before having my eyes opened I wouldn’t have wanted to listen nor would I believe it if former SGM members told me they had been spiritually abused but just because I wouldn’t have beleived doesn’t make it any less true.
As a young Christian (I am only 21 but have grown up in a Christian home) I can honestly say that the last five years of being with an SGM church was the worst mistake I could have ever made. It has done more harm than the world could have done to my spiritual walk.
Bethany,
For one so young, you are very wise. I am sorry that the church has done such harm to you. We must all look to the person of Jesus Christ and not to man’s religion. Jesus is our hope. He is our salvation, our redeemer, our rescuer, our strong tower and so much more. Keep looking to Jesus, abiding in Him and He will refresh your soul and restore what the locusts have devoured the 5 years you were in SGM. May God bless you my dear sister and pour a refreshing wind of Holy Spirit deep in your soul! At the same time, we must be ever watchful not to fall into the traps of religion and the deception and deceitfulness of such men ever again. The only way to do this is to abide in the Vine, staying close to Him and listening to and obeying Holy Spirit.
Fred,
what a kind reply to 30!
And this part:
“30years, to tell you the truth, I feel great compassion in my heart for you. You feel such loyalty and such love for your church and your pastors and you just cannot bring yourself to believe that all of this is true. It is heartbreaking and I wish it were not so.”
…oh, how we wish it wasn’t so. Jesus, help us all.
Collateral, keep in mind this letter only came out because of the significant pressure from within and outside metro. If you listen to the beginning of the Sunday morning message Danny explains Todd’s decision to leave as being about going home to maryland. the first two points were ignored. The eamil is damage/spin control. also, as i stated earlier, having an assessment team from SGM is not really an outside assessment. it is an internal audit. if you want real outside assessment invite pastors that our not part of SGM to come in and evaluate how things are done. While i try to have faith that things will change, when everything is SGM that and SGM this, i doubt they can see the forest through the trees. praying is good and with the Lord all things are possible, but based on previous evidence of how similar situations have been handled in SGM, keep your expectations low–it helps to avoid disappointment.
I don’t understand why the people cannot be more of a part of the “solution”. Why bring in outsiders? Why not listen to those who are adults, who support MLC through their time and dollars? I just don’t get it. The Body is fully capable of helping these leaders. Why call in other leadership for input? Is it because, as usual, the laity is considered beneath the leadership? I’m sorry, but I just don’t see this in the Bible. MLC, you are adults who should be a part of helping these leaders as they assess themselves.
However, there is significant disagreement with the other points listed as well as the conclusions Todd has come to about all of these issues.
These words are familiar. Questioning a person’s conclusion about a situation is how men control other men. As the recently elected Scott Brown pointed out about his Senate seat being “the people’s seat”, it is the same with the church. It should be the people’s church! No behind the scenes decision making. Treat the people like the adults they are. Handle the matter within the Body. No one should be treated as more important than another. This Body of believers should be able to surround their leaders with loving input and aid. If the leaders are truly humble, they will listen to those they claim to serve. The Body can heal itself if all the people are involved.
I don’t know if I expressed myself clearly enough. I just remember how awful it felt when I realized in my sgm church that we were being treated like little children instead of the adults that we were. We even allowed it to happen. How ridiculous. How utterly ridiculous.
Leaders of MLC, get down from behind your podium and join the people. Pray with them as equals. Seek the Lord together and allow His Spirit to move. He can fix the problems if the Body comes together to be used by Him, if you trust Him in the people you serve. Don’t think so hard about your authority. Lower yourselves as Jesus did. Let the Body become one and there will be great joy as the problems are solved by God’s gentle Spirit.
Ellie, You are so right to say, “Jesus, help us all.” Help us all, Lord.
I have to add as a disclaimer for those who don’t know me well – I am not saying there is no need for elders to oversee the Body. It is a service that is a beautiful thing when done in the Lord. However, the over emphasis on authority in church leadership is comparable to big government in the United States. The more power government has over you, the more passive you become, and the more freedoms you relinquish. Before you know it, you are ruled over in a way that God never intended.
By now, it must be obvious to everyone that 30years is a whining child who won’t get his way, but continues to whine and draw attention to himself.
Isn’t it time for everyone to stop “enabling” 30years, by simply refusing to respond to his continued provocations?
Something about the posts from 30 years makes me want to cry out,
“LOOK! The emperor has NO CLOTHES!!”
FGSP — I, too, was surprised – and relieved that they gave reasons for Todd’s departure. if it’s not too personal — what reasons did your leaders give for your departure from SGM? Were they the real reasons, or a smokescreen? Or did you just high-tail it in the middle of the night? (I think that’s what I might have been tempted to do!)
I’m surprised that your surprised. Just curious, do any of you who are surprised go to MLC? Do you know Danny? If not then it seems you are doing what 30 said and lumping all SGM pastors together.
I also find it humorous how someone is wise beyond their age if they agree with you but are blind with their heads in the sand if they disagree. I’m just sayin’…
Canary – The body is involved in this process. I’ve heard several reports from those who have talked with Danny that he has been very receptive of the things they have to say. He has been doing more note taking than talking at these sessions. To me that shows humility and someone who wants to, at the very least, analyze the information/concern hes been given.
So with this letter here for you all to see, do any of you have hope that they are truly trying to do the right thing here?
William-I do. Our interpretive grids differ, so I’m sure we have a different view of what the right thing is. I’m tempted to see some damage control in the email, but I don’t know Danny’s heart.
So yes, I’m choosing to hope that they are trying to do the right thing.
No matter which side you take, I think we can all agree that we want to love and serve Christ, we want to encourage our Christian friends to walk in grace and truth, we want our children to see the love of God on not succumb to legalism/worldliness/rebellion, we want to extend the good news to those who have yet to meet Jesus, we want the church — universal and local — to be a haven of healing, nurture, ministry, and wholehearted discipleship. How we actually do with this (methods and/or effectiveness) is another story, but I think we have much more in common than has been acknowledged here. I hope that each of us will take the time to actively reach out to people we personally know, to bind wounds, build bridges, and be like Jesus.
MetroStill
Granted mine is a outside perspective, but I did notice in the letter that the scope of inquiry for the evaluation team is limited to those areas where SGM leadership is in agreement with Todd. If “ongoing theological concerns with Sovereign Grace Ministries in the areas of pneumatology, missiology and polity” as well as the character of Danny and Benny are off the table from the start, then the benefit of any work the evaluation team may do will be quite limited. It is essentially saying, “we admit we can do better, but we are not open to considering any fundamental changes in leadership or doctrine.” I’ve been part of my share of audits, and I can tell you that even the ungodly CEOs submit to evaluation and see the worldly profit in conducting independent audits that they cannot control and which cover the full range of potential issues.
So then, why do we as the church, who should be secure in our justification, not see the eternal benefit of outside evaluation? We know that Paul admonished Timothy to guard his doctrine and conduct carefully and in doing so will save himself and others. Even Paul, after 14 years of ministry, voluntarily submited himself to the evaluation of Peter and James. It seems to me that the scope of inquiry falls short of the apostolic standard because the executive team will not submit to an evaluation of its doctrine or conduct by either the congregation or other leaders in the Body of Christ.
William Wallace,
I believe they are trying to do the right thing. I really do. But I’m with Jim, the interpretive grid is very different.
Here’s the rub for me:
MLC’s pastor said,
”However, there is significant disagreement with the other points listed as well as the conclusions Todd has come to about all of these issues. That was another reason we were pursuing outside help.”
So I went back and pulled out the “other points” listed:
“Ongoing theological concerns with Sovereign Grace Ministries in the areas of pneumatology, missiology and polity.
Lack of humility in Danny and Benny in response to the concerns brought to them in recent months by members of the church.
Lack of relational connectedness and care among the leadership team at Metro. Todd and Michelle feel very connected relationally to our church body, but their perspective would be that there has been neglect in this area by Danny and Benny among the leadership team couples.
Disagreement with the way Sovereign Grace Ministries handled the resignation of Brent D and subsequent closing down of the church plant in Mooresville, NC.
Disagreement with how the current SGM assessment team for Metro is being conducted.”
On these issues, unless I have missed something, he is saying there is STILL significant disagreement. I don’t know Todd, but if I were him and had significant disagreement with the polity structure of SGM, their handling of Brent, and their handling of the assessment team itself, I would be unwilling to meet with the in-house SGM team coming in. These are SGM men. In our stories here, others like these men STILL cling to their polity with steadfast or stubborn (depending on your perspective) certainty, even in the face of startling failures like Esther’s story. As an organization, they STILL don’t see that the polity problems are the cause of so much of their trouble. I guess that’s why I think it quite possible that much of the communication now, though it is an improvement from our experience, will still end up being damage control, even though they truly, sincerely believe otherwise. Of course, I don’t know their hearts, but even if they have the purest of motives, their error on polity makes true change very difficult.
William Wallace,
You have to admit that in the letter the focus for these pastors will be getting input from other leaders. It has been my experience (many others here as well) that, if you are not in leadership, your input counts for less. If you are a woman, it counts for even less. So, I say that no matter how receptive the pastors seem to be when the ordinary person shares their opinion, more weight will be given to sgm leadership input. This is from a tweety bird who was in the organization from the beginning.
I hope things go well, as I have shared frequently that my desire is to see the saints in sgm find reform. If the polity stays the same, there will be no reform. If any organization, whether it be church or government, has no outside oversight (i.e. from laity), freedoms are lost for the average joe or joe-et.
I still stand by my previous words that the whole Body at MLC can begin to see change if they come together and allow the Holy Spirit, our Comforter, to move freely. He knows best how to fix things. But this would mean leadership letting go of their control of the saints, trusting God in them. With sgm polity firmly entrenched, I don’t see how this can happen.
And I back Jim when he says he has always been for reform. I can’t imagine being him or Carole, seeing all the email that we don’t. But they keep plugging away at this blog because they care.
I’ve been gone for 5+ years now and I am happily ensconced in an awesome church with kicksatan doctrine and theology, an excellent and biblical polity and am thoroughly enthusiastic to be there.
Yet, when I read this stuff I get the same hard knot of feel awful in my gut from when I was a part of this nonsense. I can only manage to stop by occasionally because it’s too much dredging up the old horrid memories of God and man mixed with absolutely horrible.
GAH! I keep praying for a real reformation for SGM or an end, complete and total, to their ministry. One or the other.
And to anyone who doubts how many of us former SGM’ers who are out here breathing the relived free breath of orthodoxy – Don’t. We are out here.
You’ve probably already seen this posted on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com but for those who have not it is very disturbing news indeed. CJ is scheduled to speak at the Southern Baptist Pastors’ Conference in Orlando in June. Flip through the pages and you can find the article listing CJ as one of the speakers. He is the second speaker mentioned in the article. How can someone who is so responsible for abuse, control, manipulation, wrong doctrine, unbiblical polity, etc. be asked to speak at the SBC conference? It has been mentioned that Al Moehler is trying to make changes coming more in line with CJ and SGM’s model in the polity of the Southern Baptists . What is going on in Christianity? This is downright scary!! http://www.sbts.edu/resources/.....to-web.pdf
Fred,
Before I read the links you provided (Thanks for them), may I say one thing. Don’t worry one second about Christianity. We can worry about the direction the “church machine” may be going in, but the CHURCH, the BODY of Christ–NO! He will build HIS church–no one will thwart it–PERIOD. We need to turn from the man-made crap that is going on. Refuse to be part of what’s wrong. We NEED Christ; we do NOT need the crap. So much for saying just “one thing!”
Square Peg (love that name!) –
To answer your questions –
“did you just high-tail it in the middle of the night?” – I did not. I stayed on as an active member for months after I resigned from leadership; in other words I didn’t just disappear. I stayed as long as I did because I naively expected that any conflict would be resolved by following Biblical principles and because my family had a high level of involvement. 20-20 hindsight shows that it would have better for me and my immediate family to leave when my time of leadership was complete. Things went for bad to worse, especially after SGM leadership got involved.
“what reasons did your leaders give for your departure from SGM? Were they the real reasons, or a smokescreen?” When I talked to SGM leadership, I was confronted with 5 or 6 false accusations from local leadership. These I refuted verbally to SGM leadership without any rebuttal from local or corporate accusers. In an attempt to resolve things cleanly I offered to meet with local leadership and an outside party and I offered to submit to local leadership in areas where I may have sinned. Local leadership responded to me and to corporate in writing that they were not accusing me of sin (which is what they had done off and on for around 9 months). Local leadership did not follow up with me on my offer to meet with an outside party. Members from my xSG church have indicated that they have never been informed of my reasons for leaving officially. They have also let me know that comments are made from time to time by local leadership that attempt to discredit me.
Former SG Pastor
FSGP-unreal…
Jim – All too real, my friend, all too real …
BTW, received your email and I will respond to you.
FSGP,
I am so sorry for all that has happened to you and your family. I do believe that God will restore ALL that the locusts have devoured in all of our lives through our association with SGM.
Gratefully Disillusioned,
Of course, you are right! Thank you for the encouragement. However, I am burdened for the church and will continue to pray - especially that the body of Christ will turn from religion and turn back to the person of Jesus Christ – abiding in Him, worshipping Him, loving Him and His people.
FSGP, I’m so sorry for you. And I really understand your believing the best, and continuing to try to honor GOD in the midst of separating yourself from the job, not God’s people. I’m not sure if I know of you, or know you, OR if your story has a similar one elsewhere. How sad if this goes on all over the denomination.
However, I think it is probably pretty infrequent that a man actually resigns from pastoral staff after being elevated to that upper level of maturity! So I commend you and Todd, for standing up to the Lord first, and men second.
May God continue to lead you in his truth, his peace and his righteousness!
Thanks for changing the heading Jim. Appreciated.
FREEDOM!!!
WW-you’re welcome. I can be too quick on the draw when naming a post. Fortunately, I have friends who remind of that golden rule thing….
Carl Finnell formerly known as John Galt: just found out that someone revealed to Danny Jones my true identity!!!! So, now people on these blogs who are familiar with me can go back and re-read my posts with a clearer understanding of the authorship. Why the Alias you ask, well those of you posting here under an alias know why and no explaination is necessary, for the rest, it was simple, when i started posting on the blog it was because i had re-discovered my freedom in Christ. while i would not agree with all of Ayn Rand’s conclusions about the spiritual aspect of man, his relationship to God and organized religion per se, I do agree with her unwavering stance on the dignity and power of freedom of those who seek to control or manipulate your life so that you are a slave to someone or something. While in my case i would consider myself a slave to Christ’s righteousness, i determine to be a slave to no man’s determination of what i need to do to be accepted as part of a fellowship. I choose John Galt, because he stood for freedom!!! Similar to the one who posts as William Wallace(Braveheart) I believe there is a need in many christians in America to rise up in their understanding of who they are in Christ. He whom the Son sets free is free indeed!!!! Yes, it says to take up His cross and and follow him, but that is followed , but my yolk is easy and my burden light!!! Is this truly what is being experienced in SGM and at Metro.
If you attend Metro and are reading this blog and you have never had any issues—great, but i can give you chapeter and verse on the number of damaged brothers and sisters in the Lord, some who managed to make it to other fellowships, others who want nothing to do with the Lord or his Bride. This is a tragedy. Why did it happen?? Mainly because of leadership that didn’t have ears to hear or eyes to see. Hopefully with what is happening at metro Life church, those eyes and ears are being opened!!! For those of you who want someone to talk to there is still the email address i posted earlier, it is jggalaxytrek@gmail.com or if you are a current member at metro and you are hurt, confused, or angry. My wife and i can help walk you through your issues whether you stay or go from MLC.
We determined when we left officially in July of 2008 that it was not our job to convince or counsel people to leave if they came to us. We are not the Holy Spirit and have no intention of taking over his role in people’s lives. We do believe we know how to pray, encourage and strenthen the faith of those who are faltering.
To some who read these blogs from SGM/Metro and never post, but know who i am, please realize that we (Sally and I) are not intersted in any kind of flame war on this forum or any other forum. If you want to know more specifically why we left, well some of my issues have already been expressed, my wife had different issues from me altogether, but i am willing to discuss those issues.
Good dialogue about the role of the Holy Spirit, your freedom in Christ, church polity, what Biblical counseling looks like, what membership means, the role of the local fellowship to the wider body of Christ, the role of para-church ministries, the Cross-Centered life well the list could get quite lenghty, is welcome!!!
In Christ Alone, Carl Finnell (formerly known as John Galt)
It’s nice to meet you, Carl. Come on in–the water of freedom is fine!
Actually Acme, been here since last summer as John Galt, thanks for the welcome!!!
Carl Finnell, you are a man of great courage and I admire you. May God bless you!
I got that–I was just welcoming you under your real name.
I believe that it is very helpful for those of us who have been hurt, betrayed and wounded by SGM to take a look at the apostles during and after Jesus’ death and resurrection. They were in a state of shock, bewilderment, and great pain as they grieved the loss of their beloved Master. A contributing part of this shock, bewilderment and pain (albeit nothing compared to the loss of their Master) must have been the great betrayal by Judas that they had all experienced. Certainly, they had experienced betrayal by the pharisees but Judas had been one of them, in the inner circle, a friend to the other 11 as well as disciple of Jesus, a man that they had all trusted even with their finances. There were to be 12 of them and now they were down to 11.
As we look at the 40 days that they spent together, we see that they prayed and they talked about what had happened. They also experienced the love of Jesus and “many infallible proofs” , Acts 1:3 of His resurrection. After Jesus ascended into heaven, they returned to the upper room, “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication,” Acts 1:12-26. There is evidence in Scripture that they became stronger individually and as a group, especially Peter. Even after the great betrayal by Judas, they chose to trust, chose to to reach out and chose to add another man to their group of 11.
Those of us who were in SGM have experienced great betrayal, hurt and pain as well. Metro is the latest example of this betrayal. Men (and women also) that we trusted with our lives, our marriages, our families, etc betrayed us, rejected us and in many cases smeared our names and very reputations. And isn’t God so good and faithful? He has given us examples and models to follow (not just this example of the disciples but many others) as we walk through the hurt and betrayal. We must like the disciples choose to trust, choose to reach out to others and choose to believe in the redemption that Jesus has provided for us. We must look at the bigger picture, increasing our vision of what has happened and why. Our purpose as sons and daughters of Jesus Christ has not changed. We are to carry the light and love of Jesus Christ to a dark and broken world. We are to further His kingdom on this earth.
Yes, there must be a time of praying and talking about what has happened, a time of healing. During this time, we must be careful to learn and to grow in all that Jesus has for us and not grow in cynicism and skepticism. It is truly a time to grow in trusting Jesus, believing Him, and walking more closely with Him. It is a time to take personal responsibility to be more like Jesus and model Him to the world. Speaking truth and shining the light of Jesus into the darkness is part of this personal responsibility.
Fred -
Great analysis. If I had to sum up in a single word how I felt after my SG experience the word would be “betrayed”.
Cheers,
Former SG Pastor
(Note to Jim – I’m using a new email after your recommendation on email accounts. Thanks)
“Betrayed” is a good description. It doesn’t matter how many years you serve faithfully, how much money you give in tithes and offerings, how much you support the party line and the pastors — once you question a doctrine they hold dear, you’re cut loose. Even the heathen are more faithful to their own.
“Even the heathen are more faithful to their own.”
Keepinstep, you are so right! Even so, we must not let cynicism and skepticism hold us in bondage and hindering us from fulfilling our destinies in Christ! At the same time, I hope that those who are still in SGM will consider their ways…..where is the love of Jesus in their actions towards those who have left?
I know it has been a bit but here is something shared a while ago on SGM Survivors about the “pecking order” that that they saw existing in their SGM Church. When you read this it certainly makes what someone alleged one of the pastor’s kids did seem quite plausible:
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The sad thing is that a sort of “pecking order” existed. If you stayed long enough to climb the leadership ladder part way up you might have encountered this. Let me give you an example. Several pre-teen boys often would bully other children at church and on the internet. The ring leader’s parents where high on the “pecking order” and most of the other bullies’ parents were lower. The parents of the boys being bullied were some where in the middle of the pecking order (or below). If the parents of a bullied child from the middle group approached parents from a lower group about their child’s behavior they would apologize, say they would deal with it, turn tuck their tails and scurry away. Approaching the ring leader’ parents was is different story. Sadly, they would turn the situation back on the middle group parents and their child. Two sides of a story? Yes…but even with confessions from the lower groups’ children or adult onlookers…the tables were still turned.
Hence it is quite possible that one of the Florida pator’s kid did what was alleged.
Steve 240 said: “One thought I have on these emails is that I surprised that MLC’ Leadership has admitted as much as they have, i.e. they shared details of some the issues the leaving pastor had with SGM. From what I have seen, that is unusual. I wonder if the were pressured to do so. Usually SGM is pretty quiet on issues.”
I am a member at Metro, and I am reading these threads to find out more of what others are asking about Todd & Michelle’s departure. I want to respond to what Steve240 said, though.
Our pastors, especially Danny Jones, usually are this honest with information they share with us. This is not rare disclosure at Metro; this is very common for us. We at Metro really appreciate that our pastors are so honest and forthcoming with information. I understand other churches (inside and outside of SGM) may not share that much honestly with their congregations; but our pastors always have (at least in the over 12 years I have been there).
I am very concerned with some of the things Todd put forth. I am trying to get to the bottom of them and find out what really has been going on.
My biggest questions are: what is just a matter of disagreements among the pastors themselves that they need to resolve with each other? What are some theological concerns that a pastor, such as Todd, would need to leave over if he disagreed, but a regular member may be able to “agree to disagree”? What of the issues among leadership really do/will affect the rest of the congregation negatively?
I am hoping the results of Dave Harvey’s leadership review will help to answer some of my questions.
Please don’t respond to this thread with speculations of whether or not you think Metro leadership or Dave Harvey and the review board will or won’t be honest and answer my questions because you just don’t know. Please give them grace and wait until they announce the issues they found and their plans to resolve them before making any comments about it.
Metro Sleuth, We wish you well on getting answers to your questions. My question is: how do you KNOW that you will get the whole story from leadership? I guess it must be your faith in your pastors. I once had faith in my sgm pastors, until I found out the hard way that they were not being honest, but manipulative and secretive about things we as adults should have been told. These were pastors held in high esteem by sgm higher-ups. So, how can you really KNOW that you are being told everything by your pastors? It has been the experience of many that members are only told what the Pastors wish to tell them. It isn’t always everything, nor has it always been the whole truth.
Just wondering…
Metro Sleuth,
Lets see, which one of your pastors was supposed to get back to me in 6 years, oh no 2 years, 7 months? Thats right…I’m sorry, they just “dropped the ball”….Go Todd….it is the song that never ends.
Metro Sleuth
I wonder why I would be so skeptical about whether SGM Leadership will be honest about what happened?
Could it be that SGM so often uses the euphemism of “lack of gifting” when a pastor steps down. One pastor is even miraculously became “regifted” out West. How SGM could all of a sudden decide that some of these pastors “lack gifting” when they have been pastors for years makes one quite skeptical.
Maybe it is Josh Harris who has admitted problems in his own Church (CLC) with how singles relate but so far has not widely shared these problems so that other could benefit including mentioning them on his blog.
Maybe it is how little SGM has admitted their past errors or sometimes doesn’t even inform members when they change their doctrine? It could also be how some of the history of their church has been rewritten such as saying on their website that C.J. Mahaney was the pastor of CLC from the beginning when both Mahaney and Tomczak were joint pastors (last I looked this was corrected).
Don’t forget you are in FL and Jim’s experience happened in one of the church’s. It took a while for any real action to happen there.
It will be good if this team is honest about what happened but I remain skeptical. Dave Harvey was one of the key leaders that excommunicated Dottie Baker over her disagreement with the Ezzo teaching methods also makes me skeptical of whether the truth will be shared.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
Metro Sleuth
The other reason I am so skeptical of SGM Leaders being honest is the SGM track record. The excuse regular SGM members always use to dismiss various events that have happened is they say our leaders are “imperfect.” I am sure that what SGM Leaders still continue to say to regular members. Why is it that you rarely if ever hear of SGM Leaders admitting their “imperfections” as in admitting specific mistakes?
C.J. Mahaney and others may boast about being the “worst sinner” he knows but you never hear admitting any of his “worst” sins.
Down at MLC have you seen the leaders there admitting when they have done things wrong to the congregation including wrongs done to present or past members?
Canary – I guess we can’t really KNOW if anyone is ever telling us the truth for certain. That is why God has given us discernment. I am praying that God will give me discernment and make it clear what or who I should believe.
Charlie – Not really sure what you mean. You’ll have to explain a lot more than that.
Steve240 – we at Metro haven’t really experienced the “lack of gifting” phrase you mention. I can’t speak to that. There are definite issues to how singles relate at SGM churches. I can’t really put my finger on exactly why. There are many issues involved in that debate including the fact that there are so few single men and an abundance of single women in any evangelical church these days.
I have not been directly involved in the Tomczak, Jim or Dottie Baker issues; so I can’t speak to them at all.
Our pastors frequently admit their sin and imperfect nature. They have apologized for areas where they have been made aware of their sin -via the Holy Spirit or via correction from another brother or sister to the whole congregation. I am not aware of any admission of wrongs done to individual members, but there could have been admissions to those individuals themselves.
It would be helpful for the actual individuals wronged by MLC pastors to share their stories and how they were addressed as long as they are shared with honesty and not just from a heart of bitterness and accusation. Maybe, Jim or Carl or any other Metro/FL person out here could share their specific experiences.
Wow, I am totally blown away! Just for the heck of it I Googled Brent D’s name, because I was talking to my husband about this abusive leader I had back in Indiana, PA. Little did I know I would come to this site and others sites about the abusive cultlike church he lead. In the early 1980’s I attended Indiana Christian Fellowship, before Brent D became Pastor. My name then was Jeanne Giles and just 20 years old. My then husband, Harry and I met with a great group of young people that later came to be ICF. Then Brent D came on the scene, fresh out of Seminary he took control(and I mean control)immediately. We were excited about this new guy, but he quickly began legalistic teachings. One time he arrogantly stated that our ICF was on the “cutting edge” of what God was doing, and if you weren’t on board (like agreeing with everything he said)because he was moving fast, you’d be left behind.
He also once said that if you were still smoking cigarettes after being a Christian for several years, he doubted that you were really saved. There are many more things, but it would take too long. I remember him as a arrogant,highly ambitious guy with a huge self serving ego and agenda. We tried, along with another couple, tried to talk to him one night about how his teachings, etc. were really not reflecting the love of God. After several hours, he came to the conclusion that he was sorry we were hurt but what we were feeling was really because of our not having a close relationship with Christ. We soon left, and seeing this blog, so glad I did.
I witness a wonderful group of guys, Mark Altrogge being one of them, who before Brent came along, he was one the funniest(and musically talented)guys you’d ever meet. And Bo Latinsky was one of the guys too. These group of fun loving/God loving guys started to morph into these “little Brent’” clones. It was so sad to see these guys bury their individuality and great personalities to be like Brent. Brent told them they needed to be “sober minded” and be more serious, soon Mark wasn’t somebody I knew anymore, his joy seemed gone. We were also told to serve him(Brent), like wash his car(and other chores) so he could attend to more weighty things like studying the Word.
I have suffered a lot of abusive leadership throughout my Christian walk and for a period left organized church, not my relationship with Jesus though, he is a faithful Shepherd. Sometimes you need to back away from all the hype and find out what and who Jesus really is. After a couple years I found a really great group through an organization called Grace Communion International… When they mean Grace they mean Grace, not like what SGM perverted it to mean. I found a wonderful source in a few websites: The God Journey, by Wayne Jacobsen, and also Free Believers Network, by Darin Hufford. These are great sources for getting whole from performance based religion. I hope for Brent that he would truly come to the Love of our Father and the big grace of our Lord.
Blessings to you all.
Jeanne,
Thanks for taking the time to share your journey with us. Although, I didn’t have direct contact with Brent, he was, at that time, the “apostle” over the SGC that we attended. He spoke at our “church” and spoke at a retreat I attended. I did sense an authoritative attitude with a sense of inflated self importance, but I suppressed it because of our pastor’s insistence of the incredible “humility” that he had seen over many years of knowing Brent.
Eventually, the very same arrogance was discovered in “my pastor” who defended Brent, and we left our “little piece of heaven,” our local SGc!
We too have taken a couple years break from the organized church machine. We too love what Wayne Jacobsen has to say and are actually thinking of visiting a local group of people under the banner of Grace Communion International.
Again, thanks for sharing and hope to hear more from you!
Metro Sleuth, thanks for answering my question. I pray for great discernment to be given to you as you ask your questions. The Lord bless you!
Jeanne,
Welcome! I can understand what a shock it must have been to discover this blog. I was in the Fairfax church when Brent came in to reorganize things. We had very similar experiences to yours. One man who is now working at SGM headquarters use to be full of grace. I loved walking by him in church because that grace would just pour out upon me when he smiled. I wanted to know the Lord like he did. Sadly, it all changed as he entered leadership. Sober, impatient…the compassion seemed to all but disappear from his life. So sad.
I pray for Brent and his family. I don’t know what is happening to them after his resignation from SGM. It certainly can’t be easy. It is so good that you have found your freedom in Christ, and a place to worship that isn’t full of control. We are glad you found us!
Hi Canary & Gratefully,
Thanks for the welcome. I mentioned before that I have witnessed a lot of abusive leadership in my 30+ years being a Christian. Thankfully, God has always impressed me when things are getting weird and I will try to ask some questions, but usually the questions are never welcomed. I STRONGLY urge those who are still involved in these abusive SGM situations to leave immediately. ONLY if you have a clear direction from God should you stay. DO NOT think you can straighten these leaders out, it won’t happen, or that you staying will change things. You can always intercede from a distance. Take my word for it, if you go without attending “church” you will not back slide. Jesus is a faithful Shepherd. I recommend that you back away and take a good while to heal from these abuses. We met with some believer’s in our home for a while.
I can give you some hope that God and only God can straighten things out with SGM. The fellowship that we attend now that’s affiliated with Grace Communion International, they were once called the World Wide Church of God and were in grave error. They will freely admit that 20+ years ago they were very legalistic and cult-like and in serious error. They observed a lot of the Old Covenant laws, and controlling, etc. It took the leader dying for things to get straightened out. They have openly repented of their error and turned 180 degrees away from all that legalistic junk they were involved in and IMHO are one of the few denominations that really stress the unconditional love and acceptance our Father has for us. Now I can only speak for the church I attend, our Pastor is the most loving and humble guy who never lords over us and is just one of us, never elevated above us. No perfomance is needed, just relaxed gatherings. Although I am a Charismatic, I have really had it up to my eyeballs with the hoopla that is in most Charismatic churches and I believe that most of the egregious errors and moral failures are coming out of the Charismatic branch of the church. I just want a simple, loving,
“ real”-a-tional group and that’s what I’ve found-FINALLY! Is it perfect, no, but nothing is ever perfect, but it’s close.
I would like to know if anyone knows what happened to Brent’s relationship with Larry Tomczak. When I attended ICF and Brent was the leader, he treated Larry like he could walk on water. He seemed completely in awe of Larry. What happened?
Metro Sleuth
I wouldn’t confuse the two issues of imbalance of single men vs. women vs. problems Harris’s “alternative” may have caused.
If you want to read what I write about the latter, click on my name and that will take you to my blog. One of my biggest concerns is the entry titled “What Problems Josh Harris Has Admitted But Doesnt Share….” In summary from what I have seen Harris has been quick to point out the problems he sees with dating but quiet about the problems his approach has caused. I am sure it is hard for Harris to admit what brought him to fame has flaws that he didn’t share in his original book.
When I was at CLC the shortage of single men vs. single women always seemed worse than at other churches. I have heard a few theories about why. It also seemed like there were a lot of older single men that didn’t get married that maybe should have but were impeded by the atmosphere at CLC.
That is good if pastors admit their sin like you say they do.
I will let Jim share the details but one SGM Leader in the church he was attending refused the Peacemaker process that Jim asked be done. That certainly says a lot.
I would make sure you are keeping your eyes open and make sure you aren’t just a person not wanting to and thus not seeing the sin and abuse that has been reported on this and other blogs.
I have one email where a high ranking leader dismissed concerns brought up about one SGM Church excommunicating a member. The SGM Leader dismissed the concerns since the regional “apostle” had “offered” to meet with the excommunicated member.
The “apostle’s” offer was a rude email to this excommunicated individual saying something along the lines of I don’t think you have any points but if you do and think it is necessary I am willing to meet with you. This “apostle” said this without even hearing this excommunicated member’s side. So much for believing the leaders that excommunicated this individual could be “imperfect.”
At least you know why I am skeptical.
Metro Sleuth,
It is your pastors that must do the explaining…No I.
Jeanne,
I’ve been out of PDI/SGM for over 13 years, and walking in the wonderful grace of God. My family and I benefited from the early years when the teachings were not so rigid. For that I am grateful. The later years brought only burden upon more burden, from which we are glad to have escaped.
Charlie- It sounds kind of like you took offense at my comment. I am merely confused about what you are wanting to express. I don’t understand your comments. Sounds like you are very upset with the Metro pastors, but I can’t tell why. It probably isn’t any of my business anyway since I am not part of the solution to the problem.
Steve240 – I read some of the blogs you have out about Josh Harris and courtship. I know people who have benefitted from courtship, and have wonderful marriages. I also know people who have been hurt by courtship (or some of the ways it has been applied), as well. I don’t think there is any “method” mentioned in Scripture, so I think that is one area where everyone should pray and trust God to lead them individually in how they should go about seeking/finding a mate.
I have been hoping to find some people with specific offenses done to them by Metro leaders here . I was trying to see if there really is a reason to think that something negative that would affect the whole church is going on at Metro.
No one from Metro or Florida has really answered with any specific offense that Metro leadership has done to them (besides the person who shared about Joey – I hope you and Joey have been able to reconcile - I hope there was genuine repentance and forgiveness in that instance).
Can any of you speak specifically from experience to some of the concerns raised by Todd from the email listed above?
- Benny’s Leadership (Danny’s lack of leadership)
- Women’s ministry
- Communication to the congregation
- Pastoral follow-up
- Danny & Benny – pride when counsiling
- Leadership team connectedness
metro sleuth,
I can only speak to Danny’s apostolic leadership. A lot of train wrecks have occurred on Danny’s watch. After a 15 year relationship, my ex sr p and myself were not on speaking terms. After 4 years, a RTL from another state comes in a mediates reconciliation. Danny’s stance through the whole matter? “We’ve done everything we can do.” If nothing=everything, I agree.
A west coast Fla pastor trashes a former intern in a family meeting. Danny is made aware and does nothing. CJ is made aware, and dispatches a pastor from another state to deal with the matter. The west coast sr p publicly repents.
Another west coast fla church plant installs a pc grad who almost kills the new church. Local leadership begs for help and gets nothing for years.
I think many are wondering what Danny does for a living.
metrosleuth-
If you do nothing about what you are hearing from multiple people, past and present, then you ARE part of the problem…..
If you ask the hard questions of your church and especially the leaders being reported of wrong doing, then you WILL be part of the solution…
Meddlers put their nose in other people’s business…but the local church and the leaders whose salary your tithe enables them to do what they do, are your business. Don’t fall for the deflections of that phrase, it’s meaning is unbiblical and leads to less accountability in the church.
peace -mm
It is also a matter of having to trust these leaders to the point that you don’t press them when they feel hurt or angry by questions. I would have defended our former pastors to Hades and back at one point, and would listen to nothing said about them that was negative. That was an unhealthy sort of dependence of which I was unaware. So how does one KNOW if the trust you are placing in your pastor is healthy or not?
Back to the wolf scenerio – if you disagree with a leader, does he get hurt, walk away from you, put you on the exempt-from-leadership list? He may pretend to listen, but is there any change, any good fruit? How does one KNOW? Sorry Metro Sleuth, to bring up this question again but it is a challenge that I myself find to be daunting.
Metro Sleuth
I am glad that you see my point on how courtship has helped some and hurt others. It is sad that Josh Harris won’t come out and share this more openly.
Metro Sleuth,
Wake up and smell the coffee…Jim, what you openly shared is only the tip of the ice berg. Countless christians have asked the upper echalon for help….
The problem is, they just can’t hear our cries…
One thing that I recently thought about the alleged Joey incident was that not too long ago Joey on SGM Survivors was not getting how as the son of a leader he was probably getting preferential treatment. As I recall there were discussions pointing this out to Joey and Joey didn’t really think that was true. People were saying that Joey wouldn’t be exposed to the spiritual abuse that other members might get due to his being the son of a leader. Put another way he was deferred to since he was like the boss’s son.
It was ironic to hear someone share a story of how he allegedly pushed his weight around being the boss’s son when not too long before that he didn’t think his position as leader’s son afforded him any priviledge and it appears that we was doing just that.
I guess it sometimes hard to see your own blind spots etc.
It is too bad that this discussion apparently drove Joey away or at least into silence.
I do hope there was reconciliation if Joey did what was alleged.
I have been following the blog with reference to MLC. Being a member in the midst of transition like so many others, I have to ask those above one question. OK, maybe 2. First, are you still there? Second, when is the last time you looked out and saw that half the church is gone? If nothing else it certainly will be the cheapest 25 th celebration any church has ever had. What have we to celebrate? NOW we preach grace? Is that not like painting over moldy drywall, hoping the smell and disease will just go away?
Personally, I am just sticking around until the Family Meeting on the 31st. If there is no real repentance from the leadership team, Benny is not removed, and significant answers are not given for all the secrecy that has cloaked our “open and honest family”, then I too will be counted among the many. For those of you who say you go to MLC, if you really do ask hard questions of the team, the experience for me and many of my close friends over the past 6 now months has been more like a bad dental appointment. Danny listens, takes notes, says he is sorry if I was offended or he was never aware that issue was happening. He says he will get back to you and never does. When you do ask a direct question there is never a direct answer to anything. They preach a policy of “ask us anything” but you will never get the truth unless you ask the right question and a succession of them at that. You practically have to hold an interrogation to get to anything close to the truth. Is that how we were taught to respond? Is that transparent leadership? NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For everything I have been taught and experienced going back to PDI days it makes me wonder how much of this has been going on all along under the guise of “Loyalty”- Better known as ASK ME NO QUESTIONS I TELL YOU NO LIES.
Worse yet, I wonder how blind to living in the freedom of the gospel I have been. But I digress.
SLUETH and the rest. Look around. The only people that are left are the ones not wanting to believe all this is happening. The only thing that will pull the church together for an evening will be to celebrate the life of a dear departed saint we all loved so much. A few out of town folks and old pastors from other SGM churches may show up for the 25th Anniversary Party Sunday. If they do a slide show, how evident will it be that so many have left? T he family meeting will be packed out, but I expect it will be no different than what is happening in other SGM churches. They can’t make Todd the scapegoat; he was smart enough to see the writing on the wall. OK the marquee on the wall, and for over a year was trying to get the team to open their eyes. As well.
The mode of thinking from the pastoral staff seems to be LET THEM GO. That means the balance of people left are loyal. Loyalty is important at SGM. That means no more questions or difference in thought. They will not question leadership. The rest ask no questions and will follow like blind robots, afraid of what real life with God might be like. Can I say if this is you, you are setting up your own IDOLS to worship. Metro Life Church is your God. God is not your God!
Benny can preach grace all he wants. It is not in his nature or character because behind closed doors you will hear within the first 5 minutes that anything you bring, especially if it involves correcting him, is full of sin. That is all we have heard since he has been on staff. I used to buy into that manipulation. I do not any more.
Grace. Correction. Accountably. Family. Too bad they could not and do not practice what they preach. If they did we would not be where we are as a church now.
Eye Robot, we get you.
It is all very sad to hear that this is happening . I remember Benny preaching Grace in the Fairfax church once in 1989, just before my daughter was born. There is a difference between preaching it and living it. He was not an example of God’s grace. Then he was sent back to the PC. If he is not walking in grace by now, after all these years, then what hope is there for the people following? This is certainly something that should grieve all who care for the saints at sgm. Gosh, this is so sad.
My thoughts and prayers are with you as the family meeting approaches. The Living God is so much bigger than all this! Strength and grace be with you, Eye Robot.
Steve240,
. Joey’s reputation on this blog is not what’s important to him. But he is my brother, so his reputation is important to me lol. I need to work on my defensiveness obviously.
Hey man what’s up? Quick little response just to clear up your thinking. Your conclusions are probably fairly sound, unfortunately they’re built upon hilarious information. Joey hasn’t responded for the same reason I’m not going to respond to Eye Robot; there’s really no need too
I’m not sure why that situation was the one picked to try to skewer Joey. He really had nothing to do with it. If anyone had something to do with it, I did. Me and a friend paid for a group of us to stay in a cabin together. The administration gave us a cabin, then accidentally booked some other people to stay there. We asked a couple of those who were in the cabin with us to move to the next cabin over, which had a couple open slots. They did. Then we stayed in the cabin we paid for. Joey was involved in that he was a part of the group we paid for. The idea that he masterminded a plot that proved that he was much more important than other less than Pastors Kids (or Pastors Kids Friends, of course) so that a group of us could be Kings of the Cabin is fascinating.
…I reread that. Apparently I’m trying to prove I can be more sarcastic than Jim
…and make more grammatical errors than Eye Robot 
…hopefully you can ever understand what I said.
Wow, glad that’s cleared up. I, for one, am relieved to have the facts revealed to us by someone who was actually a part of the whole situation. Having Joey spoken about in a negative way on this blog didn’t sit right with me. I did see instances of favoratism with leaders’ kids in the churches I was involved with, so I can’t say it doesn’t happen. Just glad that wasn’t the case in this instance. I sorta feel that children and wives of sgm leadership should be left out of the fray. They have no part or power in establishing sgm polity and thus should be off limits, at least when naming names. It’s just the decent thing to do.
Lawrence
Your “quick little response” sure took a while. I wouldn’t call that quick.
In other words whoever originally posted that story (I remind you it wasn’t me) posted that a good while ago. Since Joey was quiet after that (and so were you) it lead a number of people to start to think the story was true or at least neither of you were disputing it.
Good to see you giving your side of the story.
Hopefully he wasn’t acting like a SGM “prince” as others have pointed out they have seen happen in SGM including FL SGM Churches.
Thanks for giving you side.
Metro Sleuth
I am surprised with the availability of Todd and Michelle you did not make an effort to reach them and ask direct questions. They would have been more than happy to explain what had been going on for the year plus prior to their departure. They were not in a posture to spilling their guts, but they would not lie about what had been going on if you had asked direct questions. They love this church. They love the flock at MLC deeply. That is why all this needed to be exposed- at Todd’s and his families expense. They could not deal with the lack of integrity as well as other issues. That is a very sad statement about our leadership team indeed.
I dare say we probably know each other as well. Once the family meeting is done and I am sure the truth is really out there, hopefully we can begin to heal, and what is in the past can be repented for and MLC move on. If not I would suspect things will get worse, and there will be those who will fully disclose their stories here and elsewhere. I really used to hate this blog. I could not get why people just could not go to their leadership and work it all out. I could not get why people were going on about all this and they just could not get past it. Well, now I get to eat big fat crow. I am one of the walking wounded. I tried to “work it out”. You cannot work anything out with people who tell you are in sin, full of sin, and what you bring is full of sin. There is nothing worse than leadership to take and twist scripture to manipulate the flock. As for leadership admitting sin? Danny has admitted failing long in the past. Since he has been on the Apostolic Team? No.
I also always felt like MLC was immune to the poison that has gone on in other SGM churches. If I did not have dear close friends in other locations that went on church plants < giving up jobs, homes, relatives and close friends to further the Kingdom of God> I would say this is all rubbish. With tears I have to tell you, dear redeemed saint, unfortunately there are many hurt and wounded you will never see blogging here. None of these friends are still in SG fellowships. God can and will heal. It stinks none the less. We are like Mothers who eat their own young sometimes.
You said you wanted “specifics”. After the family meeting, if it all goes south, I would be happy to share my story with you. My reservation would be this however. If you do not have an issue -personally -with MLC why are you on the blog? Someone else’s situation should not be the convincing factor for you. You going to Danny and asking very direct hard questions about what happened and your discernment should do that for you. Actually, go to Benny first. You may have more to go to Danny about after that.
Sleuth, this whole thing stinks. Not in a mean way, in a heart breaking, tearful sad way. It breaks God’s heart, the things that have gone on behind closed doors to people we love in this church. Be someone who will seek out the truth and be an instrument for positive change if God leads you to stay. Confront heavy handed blind leadership where you see it and be a voice not a door mat. There is no loyalty to God in being walked all over because your full of sin, so nothing you say has value. May God have mercy on MLC and SGM as a whole.
OH AND Lawrence
March 17th, 2010 at 4:25 pm FYI… Joey probably got told by Benny to stay off the blog, hence his silence the same way big brother Jesse was. OR is LAWRENCE really JOEY????? P.S. GANG, JOEY is a married man. He is NOT a kid, child, baby, tike, or teenager. Whoever pointed out issues about his life, pointed out the issues of a man, who happens to be the son of a powerful pastor at MLC. No pity for him please. He is no child. Interesting writting style there Lawrence including the smiley faces.
Thanks Canary!
There is peace in the eye of the storm. If I can get through the month of March, grieve the loss of my dear friend and discern God’s will in all that is going on at MLC, the fog will lift, direction become clear and regardless of the outcome, God is still and will be on the throne! I love all my friends at MLC. Fortunately, I love and trust God more.
Lawrence,
Eye Robot didn’t say anything about Joey, did he/she?
The post about Joey was over here:
http://sgmrefuge.com/2010/01/0.....nt-page-1/
I’m appaled by your explanation, Lawrence. We’ve all been in situations where two groups/people reserved rooms, due to someone else’s fault. And the way that non-spoiled, non-douche bags respond is that whoever gets there second goes to the other place. Or at least waits for the next day for the move to be made if it is life threatening (which it never is). Making that move was beyond insensitive and you seem to only be aware of your wishes and not of the wishes/needs of the people who were moved. If you truly knew the other people who were staying in that room better than those who were moved, then even how worse and 100 times more humiliating for them to be moved. You have done damage and done wrong.
Jim, feel free to remove this. I’m sure most people would. I choose to leave it because it seems that some people don’t seem to realize that when they think they are explaining a situation, all they’re doing is revealing how out of touch they are with the general public. And I think it actually does them a service when someone expresses how horrific their behavior is. Lawrence, please, go far away. Travel around where no one knows your family and no one cares. See how the rest of the world lives. Go for a year or two. Live on the road. Get in touch with people you’ve never met yet. You’ll end up loving it. And you’ll come back, better prepared to understand the people God has called you to minister to and to love. It will be a good thing. I promise.
Since it has been a little while and was actually on another threa this is part of what Betrayed posted on 1/13:
“JOEY, YOUR SMUG ADDITUDE IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SEVERAL QUALITY YOUNG MEN, {ONE WHO HAD A BASKETBALL AWARD WAS NAMED AFTER HIM FOR HIS EXCELLENT SPORTSMANSHIP, REMEMBER HIM?} EXIT THE CHURCH DOORS.
YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES EVEN BULLIED MY FRIEND’S SON- ALONG WITH THREE OTHER YOUNG MEN- OUT OF A CABIN AT A CELEBRATION CONFERENCE ON THE WEST COAST OF FLORIDA AT MIDNIGHT AFTER THEY WERE ALL SETTLED IN, UNPACKED AND ASLEEP. YOU WOKE UP THREE TIRED SLEEP YOUNG MEN. WHY? BECAUSE YOU DECIDED THAT CABIN WAS YOURS. YOU SAID MY DAD – BENNY- SAID IT WAS OK! WAS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO? USE YOUR DAD TO PULL RANK WITH THREE YOUNG MEN? MAKE THEM PACK ALL THEIR STUFF, REMOVE ALL THEIR BEDDING AND MOVE IN THE CABIN NEXT DOOR? DID YOU EVER REPENT FOR SUCH SELFISHNESS? NO. DID YOUR DAD EVER CORRECT THAT SITUATION, NO. YOU’RE THE PASTORS KID, YOU DO AS YOU PLEASE!
THE LONG AND THE SHORT OF THAT STORY WAS THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN WHOSE FAITH AND CONNECTION TO THE CHURCH WAS MINIUMAL. THAT CABIN ASSIGNMENET WAS REQUESTED BY HIS PARENTS TO REKINDLE RELATIONSHIPS HE HAD WITH KIDS HE WAS CLOSE TO WHEN HE WAS YOUNG. YOUR SELFFISH, SELFCENTERED DEMANDS TO MOVE THOSE YOUNG MEN INTO THE OTHER SIDE OF A CABIN WITH OLDER MEN FROM THE ST PETE CHURCH WHO HAD MENTAL HEALTH AND PHYSICAL ISSUES TRASHED THEIR CELEBRATION CONFERENCE. THE QUESTIONS BEGS TO BE ASKED, IF YOU ARE SUCH A SERVANT, PK MAN, WHY DID YOU NOT TAKE YOUR FRIENDS AND GO IN THE CABIN WITH THOSE BROTHERS FROM ST PETE? WAS IT BENEATH YOU? TOO UNCOOL TO BE IN A CABIN WITH THREE PHYSICALLY CHALLENGED BROTHERS- ONE BLIND, ONE WITH CP? I GUESS SO. THE PARENTS OF THE YOUNG MEN WERE APPAULDED, BUT IT WAS BENNY’ SON, YOU DARE NOT MAKE TOO MANY WAVES. AFTER YOU YOUR DAD SAID IT WAS OK TO BE THAT SELFISH AND THAT RUDE.
FOLKS I PRESENT TO YOU JOEY PHILLIPS. THE GUY TOO COOL FOR THE PEOPLE JESUS CAME TO MINISTER TO- THE LOWLY AND THE LEPERS. JUST TOO COOL FOR HIMSELF. THE APPLE DOES NOT FALL FAR FROM THE TREE. ENOUGH SAID ON BENNY’S SON.
TO ALL OF US STILL LEFT AT METRO, MYSELF INCLUDED- IF OUR LEADERSHIP TEAM AND DAVE HARVEY HAD OPENED UP THE MIC FOR QUESTIONS AND ALLOWED TODD TO TALK,{ INSTEADING OF ACTING LIKE THEY WERE ALL IN SHOCK} MOST OF WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ON THIS BLOG WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING BECAUSE THE CHURCH WE ATTEND WOULD BE OUR FORUM, NOT A BLOG. THERE WOULD ALSO BE FEWER QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. MANY OF US WANT TO KNOW THE SAME THINGS. WHY NOT ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS PUBLICLY,OR WAS THAT TOO SCARY AFTER THE OPEN MIC AT THE SUMMER FAMILY MEETING? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO HIDE? WOULD THAT NOT BE MORE TIME EFFECTIVE, OR ARE YOU AFRAID OF EVERYONE SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON IN OUR CHURCH?
WHO IS GOING TO HOLD AN APOSTLE { DANNY} ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MEN UNDER HIM? THREE SENIOR PASTORS WHO WILL REPORT TO DAVE HARVEY THAT LIVE HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY IN THREE OTHER SGM CHURCHES. WHERE IS CJ? WHO IS GOING TO QUESTION BENNY’S ROLE IN THIS? JESSE, HIS SON THE NEWPASTOR ON STAFF?
I HAVE GONE, I HAVE ASKED, I HAVE SKIPPED WORK TO AIR MY THOUGHTS AND CONCERNS. I HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN, SO HERE I AM.”
Haha, this is why Joey didn’t feel the need to explain himself.
. But I don’t mind being called a doucebag, I’ve been called way worse. A couple things. First, keep in mind that you don’t know my life very well at all. Having said that, secondly, I probably am out of touch. Third, I wasn’t defending myself. If you think the actions involved were douchbaggy then fine, I really don’t mind. My only point is that whoever Betrayed is picked some hilariously unfortunate examples to try to rake Joey over the coals, and had also unfortuantely caused Steve to have some misconceptions. I was pointing out that Joey had very little to do with the situation. Fourthly, this is getting kind of petty talking about who got there “first” and “second.” I really don’t think it should matter that our group was there “first” cause we were setting up the conference and had already put all our clothes and bedding and whatnot in the cabin.
. It really shouldn’t be hard to figure out who I am. Lawrence is my middle name, anyone here could tell you I’ve posted here at times over the years, months, whatever. And finally, what can I say? I text too much. Smiley faces are part of my lingo 
. See, there I go again. My apologies.
Steve,
Yeah sorry I said “quick” response before I actually responded; I set myself up for failure with that one.
Stunned,
I agree that Jim should leave that comment up, though probably not for the reasons you want him to keep it up
EyeRobot,
First, excellent name. I like that movie. Secondly, I’m not Joey, otherwise I wouldn’t be referring to him as my brother
eye robot-
Welcome….just wanted to say I love the reference to the Will Smith film….
“Joey hasn’t responded for the same reason I’m not going to respond to Eye Robot; there’s really no need too . Joey’s reputation on this blog is not what’s important to him.”
LAW I never said anything about Joey.
No I did not bring up anything to do with that incident, however I was at that west coast conference in a cabin with other folks, and I have to tell you Lawrence what happened that night can be easily straightened out I am sure. MLC is not exactly the world’s largest church, and people did have a lot to say about that night. It was done in a cabin full of people. All I heard was that leadership’s sons were involved and it was midnight when the incident took place. If you have firsthand knowledge LA W that means you would have had to been a P a C or an N son, seeing the other young man was not leadership related.
One of the displaced young men told quite a few singles what had happened to him that night. I heard about it third hand from a parent of one of the sons that was not booted from the cabin. I was not there so I would not want to pass on here say. I actually had lunch at the same table and helped several disabled older gentlemen from the St Pete Church, one with vision issues and one short gentlemen with CP. I am also aware of the three young men that roomed with them, because they were lending a hand, being servants, getting them to the cafeteria on grounds. I also know the parents of 2 of the 3. None of the parents are at MLC any longer, but I have MLC church directories three years back. I am sure I can get the details. Interesting this is being bounced around now. That post above is almost 4 months old. I do not care- but if inquiring minds need to know- I can make a few calls and get the actual players involved. That might help to jog your memory Lawrence.
Now I realize that may cause a huge issue. This is not the place to duke these things out, and it certainly is not my battle, but if people are venting here- upset about what has happened to them and their families- and LAW you come in and call it, or state to STEVE:
Steve240,
Hey man what’s up? Quick little response just to clear up your thinking. Your conclusions are probably fairly sound, unfortunately they’re built upon hilarious information
OK … now I am gonna get on my high horse……………………………….
HILARIOUS INFORMATION? Someone comes here to vent and heal. YOU THINK IT IS HILARIOUS???????? I just read that post in its entirety. Who are you LAW to question their experience, because as a probable PK yourself or related to one if that is the case, you are in the in crowd. You would have no idea what that might feel like.
My question would be this, I went to that conference. I stayed in a cabin. We ALL paid for cabins. We were ALL told they would do the best to accommodate rooming requests. WE ALL paid. SO what made your band of brothers so special that 3 of you could not have just gone next door yourselves? LOTS of people did not get there rooming requests as I recall! SUCH servants you all are, waking up young men at midnight, making them pack their stuff and move. AND YOU DON”T THINK YOU ALL WERE THROWING YOUR WEIGHT AROUND? SHAME ON ANY OF YOU INVOLVED. HOW BLIND YOU ALL WERE AND ARE. What you should be doing is asking the forgiveness of those involved. WE ALL paid LAW. WE ALL MADE ROOMING REQUESTS. Most people got to spend the night in hotels 10- 15 miles away, driving back and forth twice a day-you couldn’t even use the cabin next door. Shameful. Without knowing the details, thats my take. You were all selfish, lack humility or servanthood.
“Lawrence
March 17th, 2010 at 4:25 pm ”
“If anyone had something to do with it, I did. Me and a friend paid for a group of us to stay in a cabin together. The administration gave us a cabin, then accidentally booked some other people to stay there. We asked a couple of those who were in the cabin with us to move to the next cabin over, which had a couple open slots. They did. Then we stayed in the cabin we paid for. Joey was involved in that he was a part of the group we paid for. ”
If CJ was in that cabin would you have woken him up at midnight and made him move next door cause you PAID for THAT cabin? Bet ya NO!
I would have said JESUS, but it may not have made the same inpact.
“When you do this to the least of my brothers, you do it to me”
Sound familiar?
Bigger question. Were you there at Talent night behind the pool when another PK sang a song about “I am the pastors kid, I can do anything I want”. Did you think it was funny? Guess what? I’ll bet those 3 displaced young men did not.
I can inquire the entire truth from those involved if anyone really needs to hear it, LAW”S comments dug him a big enough hole on his own. To me, what they felt they were OWED cause they PAID is all the info I needed.
Lawrence, please scoot over because you need to make room in the douchebag boat for me. I truly believe I owe you an apology. I read the other post saying that you woke these guys up during the night to make them move and I assumed (clearly wrongly) that they had gotten there first. Truly, I was wrong to make that assumption and wrong to have said some of the things I said. I’m sorry. I still don’t think the situation was hilarious. More sad due to the fruit of it and the humiliation and rejection it caused these men. And I still hope you get a chance to travel the world some day, backpacking around and living on the road for a few years. It can do a world of good, some times.
God bless,
Stunned
EyeRobot,
. Second, I know who all the people are as well. No need to dig them up for me, if that’s what you were offering to do.
I’m confused with about half of what you said. One, my identity is not in question. My name is Jake. I think I already told you I’m Joey’s brother. I thought you knew who I was. Lawrence, by the way, is my middle name, and I like it better than Jacob
I’m sorry I apparently offended you by calling the information hilarious. What I found hilarious was that someone who was admittedly not in the cabin decided to skewer Joey over the situation. The irony is that Joey was not really involved, certainly not more than anyone else. They should have skewered all ten of us if they were trying to discredit someone, especially me. The part that’s messed up is then they conclude by postulating that Joey is too cool for those that Jesus died for. That’s a crazy thing to say.
I’m not sure what your saying in referencing some of the guys from St Pete. I am aware that they were in the cabin. Actually, one of the highlights of that conference for me was every night when we were going to bed, two of them would come over to our side of the cabin and tell us hysterical stories until all hours of the night. It was awesome.
Without knowing the details, that’s your take? You’re probably aboslutely right. (Self-hatred alert!!) I know that what I do is tainted with sin, and maybe I didn’t actually want to spend a weekend building relationships and fellowship with my friends. Maybe I just wanted to throw my weight around, maybe I simply didn’t want us all to take the 5 minutes to move to one of the empty cabins. Laziness is something I’m trying to deal with in my life. You could absolutely be correct, thanks for the reminder to check my motives. It reminds me of Eminem, “I am whatever you say I am.” (I hope my legalistic father doesn’t find out I listen to Slim lol)
Stunned,
No worries! Interesting that you say that, cause one of the my life’s goals is to backpack through Europe, especially Ireland. That would be fantastic.
The thing that disturbs me the most about your post, Jake, is your shrug-your shoulders, lackadaisical attitude towards those you may have sinned against. (From your own post, it sounds as if you did sin against these young men)
You said: “I know that what I do is tainted with sin, and maybe I didn’t actually want to spend a weekend building relationships and fellowship with my friends. Maybe I just wanted to throw my weight around, maybe I simply didn’t want us all to take the 5 minutes to move to one of the empty cabins. Laziness is something I’m trying to deal with in my life. You could absolutely be correct, thanks for the reminder to check my motives.”
Check your motives??? Something you’re trying to deal with??? WHAT??? How about asking forgiveness from those your “tainted actions” affected? Even if you feel you were right in how you dealt with the situation (which, I gotta say, was, at the very least, extremely rude behavior on your part… no humility in that, bro!), how about caring for those that were adversely affected by your extremely arrogant actions? Do you have a heart? Is it beating?
You also stated this: “The irony is that Joey was not really involved, certainly not more than anyone else. They should have skewered all ten of us if they were trying to discredit someone, especially me.”
As my Mom used to say… just because others did the same wrong thing you did, does that make you less than 100% responsible for your own actions?
A little humility and care towards your fellow man would go a long way, Jake! I hope, at some point, you can see what is required of you (by God) to do when you sin against and hurt others. It seems like you don’t have a clue right now as to what the right, godly response is. Sad. I truly feel sorry for you. Until you get a clue, I’ll keep praying for you!
Hi Carole! We miss you here!
Carole,
.
Thanks for your concern! And I definitely appreciate the prayers, that means a lot to me…if I’ve sinned specifically against someone, I would have no problem asking them their forgiveness. As of yet, no one who was there has even brought it up to me. So I don’t even know if any of them feel like I’ve specifically sinned against them.
But to answer your question, I believe that I do have a beating heart
Hmmm… the question is… (drum roll please…) DID you sin against them? If so (like I said before, it seems as if you did, from your own words above), then what is your responsibility in this situation, Jake? I’ll give you a hint… you shouldn’t wait until those you have sinned against approach you to confront you and your sin… it is your responsibility to go to them and seek their forgiveness! (Do you really not know that???) It seems like you are waiting with bated breath, hoping you don’t get “caught” in your sin and have to “fess up”… doesn’t sound like a beating heart to me… and certainly not a soft one towards the mind and heart of God…
Tsk! Tsk! Jake… does this behavior make your father proud? (I would think not… I “know” your father… and I “know” you and your brothers, as well… been on the sidelines watching for quite some time, Jake) But even more so… does it make your heavenly Father proud??? Seems like you are trying to skate by with some elementary-school-kid excuse instead of godly principles. Jake. Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!
I’m just having a hard time with you excusing your abhorrent behavior, Jake. Is this your pattern???? “If someone comes to me and tells me I’ve sinned against them, then I’ll ask their forgiveness”… the lack of sorrow and regret on your part concerns me, Jake. And that, along with your arrogant attitude, certainly isn’t winning you any brownie points, my friend.
Carole,
, which is probably my failure as a communicator…an acknowledgment that what I do is tainted with sin is not equivalent to specifically sinning against someone. The Bible is clear that even our good works are tainted with sin. That doesn’t mean, however, that we apologize for our good works. What I did, I am quite confident, was tainted with sin. However, as far as I am aware, I did not sin against anyone. As I pointed out, we got all set up in our room, there was confusion, other people came, we asked a couple of them to move a cabin over, they did, boom. If during that process I specifically sinned against someone in particular, then I am unaware of that. If I was aware of it, I would certainly seek them out and apologize.
.
I think you misunderstand me
The point is, I’m certainly not “too cool for those whom Jesus died for” and neither is Joey. That was what I was reacting too.
I’m sorry I can’t win any brownie points with you, though. I love brownies. And now that I know you know me, I feel like it’s a mystery. Feel free to ignore me as I attempt to start tricking you into telling me who you are
Ummmm… I’m Jim’s wife… the owner of The Refuge…
… According to the person that first revealed Joey’s/Jake’s serious social snafu (we’ll do it your way… we won’t call it “sin”… although a rose is a rose is a rose…), you did sin (Whoops!) against at least one of those young men. This is according to the young man’s Mother!! Don’t you think it would be a good gesture to contact those young men and at least apologize for your rude, boorish behavior if nothing else? I mean, to sit back and see if someone comes to you instead of going to them and asking if you offended/sinned (oooops… just can’t help calling a rose by it’s name!) against them is the height of arrogance, my friend!
And now to get back to our sparring match
Just do the right thing, Jake. Even if you feel you did nothing wrong, why can’t you extend the right hand of (restored) fellowship? Obviously there are bad feelings that exist from whatever happened that night? Why not be a big man? Why give room for more PK stories? (I have quite a few of my own PK stories…)
Just trying to help you out, Jake. Instead of trying to justify your behavior, why not seek those guys out and ASK them if you sinned (There I go again! Dang!) did anything wrong to warrant at least an apology, if not asking for their forgiveness? There are always two sides to every story, Jake… and the one you believe to be true is colored by your own sin (Smack my mouth!!) judgement.
Oh lol nice. I’ve known that. I just get Carole and Canary all mixed up. I used to hang out with your son for a while, by the way, though I haven’t seen him for a while. I enjoyed it.
. He thought I just wanted to stay in the cabin where all my stuff was 
.
.
Those are valid suggestions, by the way. Until now, I wasn’t aware that the person who pointed out our serious social snafu (well said haha) was the mother of one of the kids who moved. And it was certainly the first time I even knew anyone remembered anything about that night. I certainly hadn’t thought about it since. Quite honestly, I only remember two of the people who moved, and one of them is a good friend of mine. I’m quite sure he didn’t think I was sinning against anyone
My point in this “sparring match” (which is fun, by the way) is not even really to convince anyone that I didn’t sin. My point is, as you yourself pointed out, there’s two sides to every story. So maybe let’s not be too quick to just accept when people say silly things like “Joey’s too cool for those that Jesus died for”. This leads to assumptions. For instance, Stunned assumed that we got there second. Steve (and many others I’m sure) assumed Joey was the ringleader, and now lots of people assume a group of people (half of which, as has been pointed out, are actually married or in the mid-twenties, by the way) from Metro don’t give second thoughts to kicking people out of cabins and don’t like hanging out with impaired people. Does that only sound slightly ridiculous to me? Maybe so. As Stunned pointed out, I already live in my own little world
Lawrence/Jake, instead of trying so very hard to say the right things, maybe concentrate a wee bit more on being right, living up to your identity in Christ. Being right, that is living from the LIFE living inside of you (the Lord Jesus via the Spirit), will take care of ALL the external “window dressing!” Many, many, OK most evangelical Christians, got the evangelical lingo down to a science. You know, the “everything I do is tainted win sin” thing. Sounds humble and neutralizes those wanting to speak truth into your life. Yuck, that sounds like evangelical Christianese–sorry!
Lawrence/Jake, when we attempt to walk out this Christian life in the flesh, yes everything is tainted with sin, because much of it is generated from our old ways, with an agebda that is never 100% pure. BUT when we walk in the SPIRIT, and HE LIVES HIS LIFE out through us, as us, it is PURE and RIGHT, and without an agenda, without needing to win, without needing to appear spiritual, and so HIM. That is seldom taught in evangelical circles, and not in any SGM “churches” that I have been in. Most of them are too interested in telling us to try harder and harder, when we cannot–EVER, because all we do is “tainted with sin,” you know that determination to LIVE for HIM no matter what thing, when HE said I can do nothing without my Father, when He was living as a man here on Earth, and told us that we can do nothing without HIM.
We, in the new covenant, have HIM LIVING inside of us. Walking in the SPIRIT is living from that LIFE, and that LIFE does NOTHING tainted. We are not helpless sinners saved by grace. We are saints who can and do sin. Maybe our problem is that we try too hard to live this Christian life in our own efforts. He said we can’t
Righteousness flows freely and purely from intimacy with HIM. I am not implying that we don’t sin; we do.
Oooops… I stand corrected… it wasn’t the young man’s Mother… it was the young man’s Mother’s friend who originally posted. I’m sorry for not getting my facts straight before posting!
Just FYI… Jim and I don’t necessarily agree with everyone’s opinions who post here… but they are free to share their opinions.
You said: “Quite honestly, I only remember two of the people who moved, and one of them is a good friend of mine. I’m quite sure he didn’t think I was sinning against anyone
. He thought I just wanted to stay in the cabin where all my stuff was 
.” (Italics mine)
Is that an admission of guilt, Jake??? The sin of selfishness, not putting others before yourself, not following the “golden rule”? Your sin of selfishness overflowed onto these young men, Jake… reason enough to ask for forgiveness for sinning against them!!! Get it, Jake??? (I seriously can’t believe I have to walk you through this… good thing I was a homeschool Mom!!)
Hey Carole,
Lawrence was home schooled from what I know so he should get this pretty easily. :) I believe the point you are trying to make (if I may) is that a guy who grew up in a church that teaches identifying and confessing sin to the max seems to be mincing words when confronted with his own wrong doing by a second and third party. The “two sides to every story” excuse might be accurate, but how many of us had our stories thrown out by sgm pastors because it didn’t agree with theirs? My ex-pastor is an example of that, and has been forced to resign recently by the very men he “discipled” because of his controlling nature, which we tried to point out to him many years ago (along with other church members).
Maybe Lawrence/Joey can answer these simple questions and perhaps put this whole thing to rest: did you and your brother use your “clout” as pastors’ kids to have your way that night in the Great Cabin Robbery? Did you or your brother, even silently in your hearts, know that the people you asked to move to another cabin would do so unquestioningly because your father is a pastor at an sgm church? Take time to ponder before you answer. SGM has been accused before of nepotism. Could you possibly have taken advantage of the cabin situation (even subconsciously), making others go out of their way to accomodate you (if I read correctly, it was late at night), knowing that they would because of your special position in ML?
The truthful answer to this question might put a final seal on this whole affair.
Hey G.D.!
Hope you and your family are doing real well. You wrote a great post – straight to the heart of the matter. I recently read this quote and thought it would fit in nicely here.
“Don’t take up your cross until you are ready to reject any and every thought on becoming a holy disciple as a result of your own effort.”
David Wilkerson
Rut Row…my latest comment is in the moderation box. Help, let me out of here!!
Thank you! I was getting lonely in moderation box. Hee-hee!
Canary,
Thanks for your kind words. You add much grace to those of us who frequent this blog. Your freedom in Christ is refreshing–thanks. We are well. How about you and yours?
David Wilkerson’s quote is spot on–so true. The “church machine” communicates that our own effort is what we need to work on, change. When in truth, the Christian life is impossible to live by human effort, if we have an honest bone in our bodies. It is meant to be that way! Any real “success” in the Christian life, comes from within, HIS LIFE manifesting itself out through us, AS US, never from human self effort, the flesh!
I see that the cat is still where it belongs.
Blessings.
Aw, thanks G.D. My family is well. I continue to stand on top of my cage!
Also, I meant to say Lawrence/Jake in my previous post. Sorry!
Jake, I always tell my kids that if they realize they have hurt or offended someone unintentionally, they still need to apologize. I think there is enough reason to believe that you have offended some folks, even if you weren’t aware of it at the time. I agree with the others that an unsolicited apology from you and Joey (and others?) is overdue. I like you guys and I don’t want anything to bring you or your family down. Your dad is experiencing enough heat of his own (which might crank up at the family meeting on March 31) so it might help to take your own kindling out of the wood pile. Do the right thing, brother, and you’ll be blessed one way or another.
Oh! Jake! (can I call you Jake? Or, would you rather be called Lawrence here?… I should have asked that earlier in our conversation! :-/)… just one more thing… I respect your desire to protect your brother and defend him here… I get a bit peeved myself when assumptions of heart motives or character are assigned to those I know and love. Like I said before, Jim and I don’t necessarily share all of the views from all of the posters here at The Refuge…
I, by no means, think that all PK’s are rude, arrogant, and throw their weight around. I know PK’s who are wonderful, godly people. So I am not putting all PK’s in a box. But, I have seen enough of this type of behavior from some PK’s to cause me to pause and consider when I hear stories such as the “Great Cabin Robbery”.
I don’t know the whole story of what happened the night of the “Cabin Robbery”… my whole point in challenging your view on your role and responsibility is to (maybe?) cause you to think about how your actions and non-actions in these types of situations are viewed by others. And how your assumptions that “it’s all good” doesn’t mean that it is “all good” for everyone involved.
It is our responsibility as a part of the body of Christ to evaluate our own hearts, Jake, in all situations. And if we find any sin in our hearts (selfishness, pride, lack of care and/or concern for others, etc.), it is our responsibility to seek forgiveness from our heavenly Father and from those we sinned against… if we find no sin after much searching, but find even a hint of rude behavior, we need to go to them and apologize at the very least. That’s just common manners, Jake.
Why do you think PK’s get a “bad rap”, Jake? Do you think accusations against PK’s are purely unfounded? Remember, Jake… I have been to a lot of SGM conferences, Celebrations, other SGM churches for many different functions. I have seen a lot of PK’s (including you and your brothers, Jake!) in many situations…
I would hope that you (and other PK’s) would want to change your “bad rep’s” by changing your MO. But, I have to say, Jake, that from my observations from the sidelines, I have seen a lot of responses from some PK’s that weren’t godly responses, or were responses from a sense of entitlement, or were just plain ol’ rude behavior. If you want people to stop making “wrong assumptions”, Jake, maybe you should evaluate yourself as a PK and ask yourself some hard questions. You may be surprised by what you discover about yourself and your actions… I’m just sayin’, is all!
Now for the disclaimer…
Can you see where I’m comin’ from, Jake? Do you get it? Do you understand that a pattern of this type of behavior from some PK’s cause great concern for many, and because of these kinds of behavioral patterns, these kinds of stories are believable? (I’m certainly not suggesting that you and your brothers should take the rap for other PK’s behavior, Jake… but this post has already grown too long and I don’t want to make it longer by going into too many disclaimers… unless they are needed!)
If I were in your shoes, I think I would want to go the extra mile to ensure that my heart motives and my behavior were above reproach, for the sake of the Gospel, for the sake of my walk with Him, and in order to change the rep PK’s have. After all, that’s just what all Christians are supposed to do, Jake… It’s our responsibility as fellow Christians… to “walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God”…
I want you to know, Jake, that I am not lecturing you… I can hear in your posts how much you care about what people say and think about you and your brother. I truly am trying to help you see how you can effectively change how you, as a PK, are viewed by others… it can only happen with repentance, the Holy Spirit working in us, and hard work to change ourselves, Jake. I hope you take up this challenge and I hope it reveals a lot and changes you for the better! (I actually like you and like “sparring” with you… unfortunately this has taken me away from other things that I should be doing… but it’s been fun!)
Lawrence (aka Jake, aka Jacob, aka my new travel loving friend), just the fact that one of these men told someone else what happened (or no one would ever have heard anythinng about this) indicates to most of us (if I could please speak for most of us) that there was some deep hurt done, intentional or not. Can you see that?
Also, YES, go away. I seriously don’t go around telling everyone to travel. But in my initial contact with you, I felt very strongly that that was something I needed to tell you. And I still keep having that same feeling. Not that it matters, but I support you in this 100%. I don’t know if you have a wife and kids or not, but if you do, find some way to make it happen. (There are more families that take extensive vacations overseas and learn to live on the road for a time than you know.) If it’s just you, then all the easier to do it. Italy, Spain, Portugal, England, Scotland, Germany, the Czech Republic, Romania, Poland, Hungary, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Wales, Morocco, Sweden, Belgium, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Netherlands and Ireland are all calling you. Go see what God has in store for you. It will be hard. But it will be worth it. I can hook you up with some easy work in Spain for a week where you get free, posh housing and free, delicious food. You’ll also meet some fascinating people there. Possibly Italy, too. There may be some other possibly free couching surfing opportunities if you’re willing to reciprocate some day when you have a couch of your own. Let me know when you begin to plan it if you want any help. Go, my friend, go. And take your time. Don’t rush the process. Take as many months as God leads you to take. It will be good. Just go.
Oh man. Does that sounds wonderful or what???
Jake & Joey, in this situation, most folks would come to the cabin, see the beds taken, and kind of sigh and perhaps make a mental note that reserving the bed more obviously might have been in order. Then you take your stuff and move to the next cabin and see what God has for you there. You don’t wake up someone who’s already asleep and who had every reason to think that they were in the right bed.
Given that you did wake them up and move them, when it was pointed out that this was rude, you might be annoyed with yourself for not realizing it and want to go hide and forget about it, but your relationship with these brothers is more important than how you’re feeling about being rude. So, you go and apologize — not with a formula but with honesty. Admitting the wrong just means you’re human and make mistakes. The key is, what do you do about the mistake?
I am wondering if there is fear here on your part — that to admit to this action was sinful means you’re “bad” people somehow. Legalism leads to something that’s called a black/white split which means that it’s ok to generally admit that you’re a sinner, but if you admit to any particular sin, you flip from “good” to “bad” and getting back to “good” is very painful. Thinking I’m talking psych nonsense? Check out Galatians 3:10 — under the law, you have to follow every point or you’re out. So, the law kills — fear of this motivates you to dodge all over the place any sense of responsibility. Jake and Joey, you are caught in this. The good news is that you can be free; under grace, you can admit that you did make a mistake here and that you can learn from it. You can recognize that when your actions hurt someone else, you need to make things right with them without seeing yourselves as all bad.
Jesus offers us grace — He wanted us to know Him and His love, and to be healed from unrighteousness so much that He was willing to die in a terrible way to make that possible. Don’t throw that away!
God bless.
I don’t know how to put this delicately but will try.
It almost seems like the run around and denial of wrong doing that these PKs seem to be doing is so similar to the stories you hear of leaders within SGM. These are the leaders that are quick to turn the tables when a regular member wants to bring an “observation” about a leader. Sadly perhaps this is what growing up the child of an SGM Leader will produce?
Reading and digesting all the Joey/Lawrence/Jake self-defensiveness….and feeling oh-so-nauseated. The common characteristics of (imho, most) SGM leadership: lacksadasial attitude toward any possible pain caused to others; the “I’m tainted with sin” mantra which is supposed to excuse a multitude of their sins; blaringly evident sense of entitlement and the off-handed dismissal of their Brethren; evasion of genuine personal responsibility for wounding people.—- So so so sad to see this ‘fruit’ producing after its own kind (from generation to generation).
Carole, really, I pray your words and “walking through” this with Joey/Lawrence/Jake will truly make a crack in his thinking/training, and that he will seek Jesus and allow Holy Spirit to CHANGE him… (into the likeness of Christ—not the likeness of an sgmclone).
Steve240,
What’s so hard to understand, at least about leadership, is they preach how humble and teachable we must be. Yet, some of us have discovered how they are not humble and teachable themselves (I do not accuse all sgm pastors of this, obviously). That has confused me an awful lot through the years. Maybe leaders think they should only be approached by other leaders for correction. Yet, King David, when verbally harassed by an old man on the side of the road, kept his soldiers from stopping the man. His assertion was that perhaps God was speaking through the old man, and who was David to stop him?
I swear, if a potted plant had spoken advice to my ex-pastor about his obvious need for control, he might have listened more than he did to those of us who questioned, in love, the direction he was going. He injured more saints as he went along, untill he was finally forced to resign. That is a sad epitaph of a man’s career.
Maybe it isn’t too late for some of the PK’s who follow to realize we are all equal in God’s eyes. Maybe, as they watch what is happening to their parent’s, they will see that something is seriously wrong with the kind of church that puts men (and their families) on pedestals, whether knowingly or not.
liz4cps, may I dido your above gracious post.
Waters, I to pray that Carole’s conversation will somehow reach Jake’s heart. It was amazing to watch her explain herself so patiently and gracefully, but not holding back on what she felt was the truth. It was like watching a Christian boxing match where nobody got punched.
God be gracious to us all!
True that, Canary,…true that!
liz4cps—-THANKYOU for all of the life-giving words
And may I add—the letter of the law kills the very heart of emotion God
created in us—sensitizing us to the effects of personal interractions etc etc.
Thus ins SGMland we hear mantras, readied robot answers, and the
continuation of detached evasiveness and responsibility that would cause a
Believer to KNOW when they have hurt or offended or deeply sinned against
a fellow Believer or anyone else.
Jesus said He would send us “The Comforter”— and He has—and He is here
He is: Comforter, Teacher, Healer, Discerner, Bringer of conviction of sin,
Guide, Speaker of Truth……. Awesome to be lead by Him
and not the Law…………….
Everyone: I am so sorry for my lack of computer skills on above post!
Ha! That’s okay, Waters. We got the gist of your message! I remember when I first began blogging that I would spell “site” as “sight”, until a wonderful Ellie pointed it out to me. Man, were my cheeks red. But thus began a beautiful friendship!
Dear Waters,
no worries re
garding your post. your words were
beautiful nonetheless. and more so, the thoughts they conveyed were true
and a blessing to those who read them and have a heart to truly understand them. The law brings death. I continue to pray that the sentiment in your words would become truth in the hearts of those who seem to have all the right words to say, but lack the sensitivity they so dearly need.
Stunned
who wants you to know you’re not alone in making errors in typing posts (the mistakes I’ve made are countless!)
Canary..and .. Stunned,
A smile and a thankyou for your encouragement this mornin’
Gods Peace to you, Waters
Stunned, HaHaHaHaHaHa!!! I love this sight ( I mean, site).
God’s peace and rest to you, Waters.
Canary, I think I may just call it sight for a while. I mean, it has helped in allowing so many people to see the truth.
Hey, I never thought of that!
Wonderful friends!
Canary, Stunned, Waters, Carole… God bless you all!!
Jacob Lawrence, I prayed for you this weekend more than you may ever know, this side of heaven.
Has anyone brought up or asked how Jake and Joey would have felt or reacted if they were the displaced boys in the cabin? Or did anyone ask if anyone would DARE displace Phillips kids at midnight who are already sleeping and moved into the “wrong” cabin?? Would that not be an interesting role play experience? And….when the displaced boys/men were moving, did anyone think they had the right to judge the attitudes or responses of these people? Just wondering.
These are my additional thoughts but I couldn’t possibly put them as graciously as Carole has!
Phillips “kids”, you were taught better than this. I really believe it.
LOLOLOL!
Hey, Canary my good buddy….
No.
No meaning I can’t spell it as “sight”? Ho hum, party pooper…:)
Oh, fun. The cabin thing is still an issue.I haven’t checked here for a few weeks…
Well. I was one of the “displaced” young men in the cabin. I have moved on, no harm done, life and church are both bigger than MLC. Which I, perhaps, didn’t know at that point yet.
The descriptions here (“my dad said it’s ok”) pretty much match my memory. They match the larger picture I have of SGM now, good and bad, family solidarity and the longing of young men to get into the inner circle. I didn’t mind being dislocated then, since I wanted to belong.
Yet, looking back, the whole thing was eye-opening in a nice sense.
Think of it in a different way, you who were not in the picture back then: I, for one, got moved into a room next door with – someone mentioned it above – people with physical and mental challenges. And I got to see picture of the body of Christ that was bigger than the circle of boys – and boys they were – good at playing ball, bigger than the innermost circle of MLC insiders. I got to talk to a man struggling to get out of bed every morning, another man who has been out of an employment for years. I started to feel that I kind of liked that. That the church must, perhaps, embody more than what I had been seeing SGM and MLC do at the time. And, so, I was blessed. Moved to the fringes I was, in a way, moved to the center. Middle-class suburban culture is not the center of CHrist’s attention. It is a part of it all, but not the part that is decisive, even though it is in SGM. In other words, I’m grateful for the opening of eyes, and the forced move next door.
Though that is certainly not what was the intention of whoever said “my dad said it’s ok that night”. Thanks! For me, the issue is at rest.
Bravo Famagusta..
All I can say is BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have truly seen….
Yes, being gone can certainly give you different eyes. What the “innnercircle” meant for displacement for thier own comfort and being with their peeps, God used in your life to leave an incredible impression. He came for the lest of these. Who ever is least among these will be the greatess in my kingdom. You are and wonderful young man.
Thankyou, Famagusta for sharing your significant account — what a beautiful picture to see the “other side” of the tapestry the Lord was bringing forth in your heart!
You chose to SEE the men, listen to them, talk with them—–and the seeds of the love of God (which is selfLESS) we hear in you testimony! We rejoice with you in recognizing God opening your eyes in the midst of the “forced move next door”.
—-And that this issue is at rest——– Gods Peace to you…..
Famagusta,
I agree with you broham, talking to and hearing the stories of the St Pete guys was definitely a highlight of being in a cabin with them. Very well said.
Lawrence, I think this is a misunderstanding, maybe you know it or you don’t.
I was among those who got moved out from our original room into the one with the St. Pete guys, because you and others moved into the original one. I don’t remember seeing you much after that. But of course I hope the “highlight” was all yours, too.
For clarification: the cabin was divided into two rooms, on one were the dislocated ones and the St. Pete guys, one, as it turned out at midnight, was reserved for a few young guys from MLC, Lawrence among them. As I said, no harm done. I regard it as a favor unknowingly given. Strange to revisit, though.
Thanks Famagusta, for sharing your experience. That was simply beautiful, and gladdens the heart.
Famagusta, thankyou for showing us what a truthful grace-filled clarification is.
Lawrence,
Add to the characteristics from my post on 3/21:— convoluted,contradictory,arrogant,
disengenuous,and self-exalting. Truly, I am saddened to see you continue to exhibit the second generation of sgm pollution.
This weekend I look forward to engaging in a “Life Story” with my grandsons, age 9 and 7. I will narrate the cabin story without names etc and in parable form point out lessons of:
* When something unexpected comes—whats the first thing to do, guys??? (PRAY)
*In this case scenario
would you speak up for the ousted men and guys?? (Preferring and serving others is always a Christlike fruit and mindset)
*If you were one of the offensive ousters and the family heard of this and we came to you—this is what deflecting looks like (refer to Lawrence,Jake,Joey posts)— do you see how repugnant (they love big words) this is ?
*Do you see how allowing the settled in ones to stay (around midnight) would have been the MANLY thing to do????
*And we should never seek to tweek a story (lie) to make ourselves look good, should we ,boys?? Because God already knows…..
All,
Can I suggest that we let this issue rest? Since Famagusta has said, “no harm done”, it is probably not the responsibility of the rest of us to correct Lawrence. Though I disagree his past actions and current attitude, the posts are getting into name calling and not showing Lawrence the kind of love we are admonishing him for not showing. In any case, enough has been said online.
Take a peek at this for something very encouraging at Metro Life.
http://vimeo.com/10387728
God is so faithful no matter what else is going on!
Greg and all— Issue at rest from this end.
Greg, how about we let each of the people involved make that decision instead of us? There were others in that room who may not feel it is resolved. And besides, God may be leading others of us on this board to do or say something here, though you or I may not see the need for it.
Say what you need to say if the issue is not resolved. But, please let us be an example of Christ’s love to one another. Please don’t say things that are cutting or spiteful – either side of the issue. Please just speak the truth in love.
If you cannot do that, please take it up with the individual instead of posting for all of the world (including non-believers) to see. Please be set apart from the way the secular world would treat each other.
Looking forward to the family meeting on March 31. I hope we get some definitive answers.
Personally, I think posters have been very gracious. Correction, in this case, is not necessary. We all hope the 3/31 meeting goes well for ML. I hope the saints get the answers they need.
To my dear metro friends.
If I had a card board testimony…it would read…
Decieved by the church
Will not go again..
Everything is not so peachy keen as the lights are turned low and the soft music plays. The church, the leadership and the “family of God” have left some in devastation. Metro sleuth, you do what you feel comfortable with, and I will do and say what I am comforable with.
I believe God did all those things that each person wrote on their cardboard, but I know many that have been hurt by Sovereign grace ministries and the likes of leadership.
I dont appreciate anyone calling Lawrence/Josh etc etc names either, its their parents and the rest of the “sovereign grace leadership team” that are convoluted, contradictory, arrogant, disengenuous, and self exhaulting. I would personally like to add to the list fake, liars, weak, abusers, lazy and Jim, I hope this is ok to use this word in your living room…cult leaders….
Now I feel much better…Good nite all…
Metro, Please be careful of judging the outward appearance of the fruit. It can be very deceptive and lead you down the wrong path. Have you ever taken a bite of an apple that looks beautiful, rich in color, and shiny and by all accounts looks delicious just to find that it is bitter and sour? You actually have to spit it out because the taste is so bad. During my years within SGM I witnessed many “celebrations, anniversary parties, etc” on stage. They were always and I mean always inspiring, encouraging, and uplifting occasions. In fact, every event that I ever attended within the walls of a SGM church was like this. Everything was executed with perfection and excellence. I’ll never forget our membership banquet. I could not believe how wonderful, beautiful, and excellent everything was from the decorations, food, and service. People in the church served and you would have thought a catering team had been brought in by their professional service to their black bowties, white shirts, and black pants. I love excellence and I believe that excellence glorifies God. HOWEVER, when the excellence is only on the outside, then it becomes artificial, superficial and disingenous. Sadly, this is the truth about SGM. It is fruit that looks good on the outside but is sour and bitter when you taste it. What happens in the day to day living out life together? What happens behind closed doors during counseling appointments with pastors? What happens when women and children don’t have food to eat and are being abused by the very husbands and fathers who should be protecting them? What does the church (pastors and members) do then? Now many who are still in SGM churches will read this and say, all that is different now. The churches have changed. The real Gospel is being preached. We have food pantries now. We have freedom in worship demonstrated through dancing, etc. I appeal to you that what has changed is the outward appearance. There has been no repentance from the upper leadership. There has been no public acknowledgment from CJ and the apostles of wrongdoing. Pastors are still considered to be standing in the very stead of God and there are no elected elder boards. Has the polity changed? Are the churches governed any differently? Are missionaries being sent out? Are the local churches involved with other community churches? Truthfully, what has changed other than what you see on Sunday mornings and on stage? In June, it will be 2 years since the blogs were formed. Hasn’t the leadership had enough time to gather their thoughts and step forward in humility, publically acknowledging all their error. All to say, do not be deceived by outward appearances. As my very dear friend says to me, ”Test the Spirits”.
Howdy Fred!
I remember being on the new members’ dinner team. In the early years, we women had such joy and fun planning and preparing the meals. Our hearts were truly happy to welcome the new members into our “family”. Later on, when I served on the team in another sgm church, the very controlling pastor burst our bubble.
We women were having a great time in the kitchen while the new members ate their wonderful meal. We began discussing what we could do with the next dinner, like having a theme – you know – western, Hawian, etc. We were so excited and creative as we came up with new ideas about serving the next new members’ dinner.
Well, in came the pastor at the end of the meal. He thanked us for our hard work. We began talking about our ideas. He listened (rather condescendingly), thanked us again, and left.
The next new members’ dinner did not include the same group of women. This leader had to have such control that their was absolutely no freedom for us to use our gifts to be creative. The joy that we ladies shared in serving the Lord by welcoming new members quickly vanished under the heavy hand of control. I don’t know how the dinners were in the future, because I was never asked to serve there again.
I only share this to underline what you are saying, Fred. Outwardly things may look good, like that juicy looking apple (wonder how it tasted to Adam and Eve?). What’s really going on in the inside? I really pray there is change inwardly. I really, really do, but as others have said here, if the polity never changes, how can the churches be different? How can the people find their true freedom in Christ if they are still under the power and control of a small group of elite men who really believe they are responsible for people’s souls to an extreme?
I just don’t see how it will work, unless the Holy Spirit reveals to sgm leadership the errors in their thinking, errors that have hurt the church for centuries. But I am a mere woman, so what do I know? Hee-hee…thank God I can laugh at that, now.
Hi Canary, you said, “I don’t know how the dinners were in the future, because I was never asked to serve there again. “ Now that I am out, I am just amazed that I sat so long under leadership that prohibited people from volunteering to use their giftings which are given from God for the edification of the Body. There was definitely an unspoken rule that you were not to volunteer. Everyone knew it and everyone abided by the rule. They had to wait and sit on their giftings. I was just talking about this with my significant other yesterday. In SGM, unless it was in children’s ministry, stacking chairs, kitchen duty, etc, you had to wait to be asked to serve. Care group leaders, ladies book club leaders, prayer and prophecy groups etc, etc were all “handpicked” either by the pastors or their wives. If the pastors’ wives did the choosing, the pastors had to approve those chosen.
Looking back it is clear that this is another way the sheep are held in captivity and bondage to the pastors. Oh, to be one who was asked to serve was a real priviledge!
I wonder…..what does God say about burying your talent? Now you may say but the talent in this parable is not the same as a gifting but I would ask, if you are not using the gifts and fulfilling the calling on your life, are you not sitting on your talent and on your God given destiny?
The word for the day is white washed…
Oh this is so funny…..that reminds me of asking can we serve pulled pork on “Pizza Sunday” aft 2 years…
Um it didn’t go to well and ya know I didn’t want to name call today….Fred, thank you for your post. My premiumly paid for red delicious apple was rotten when I bit into it. I know the feeling far to well.
Fred,
My answer to your last question is “yes!” Shame on any church that won’t free the people to move in their giftings to edify the Body.
You know, it seems like there is a civil war going on in America over the Health Care Bill or, more exactly, over liberalism verses conservatism. The first wants control over our lives through force, the latter encourages freedom and individual responsiblity. I think this same civil war is going on in the Church at large.
I, for one, am for freedom and individual responsibility.
Canary, I agree with you completely. These problems are not limited to SGM, sadly. Also, I am very concerned that CJ is taking his message to the Southern Baptists, speaking at their pastors’ conference in June. Very frightening!!
We know though, that God is bigger than any man. He won’t forget America and He won’t forget His church, right? There are enough saints praying for both that the Lord will not turn His eyes from us, no matter how dire the situation seems to be.
Charlie,
You bring up an interesting point about cult leaders. Here are some questions for everyone reading here, concerning their leaders……………
Have they told you that your thinking or actions are corrupted by sin?
Do they encourage “grouptalk” and use special phrases?
Do they act differently behind closed doors?
Do they show favor to certain types of people (young, attractive, wealthy, talented)?
Do they claim to stand in the very stead of God?
Do they lie about the faults or shortcomings of the leaders of the church?
Do they rewrite the history of what they’ve done in the past?
Do they obscure or act elusively about church finances?
If you answered YES to any of the above questions, take THIS QUIZ and see how your leaders and church stack up.
If you answered No to all of the above questions, you may return to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress.
N.S.L.B.
Regarding CJ speaking at the SBC convention in June, when the event occurs monitor the proceedings by going to Founders.org and reading Tom Ascol’s blog. In case you do not know, founders.org is founded by a group of SBC pastors who have been attempting to move the SBC away from the theological liberalism toward which it drifted during the 1970s and 1980s and back toward its historical reformed roots. If you read Ascol’s blog for any period of time you will see that he is a thoughtful guy and by no means a reactionary. If he does not agree with what CJ has to say, Ascol will state it. In other words, I would not take CJ’s apperance at the SBC convention as necessarily a bad thing.
formersrmer, I believe that CJ is at the root of the problems within SGM, therefore, I absolutely think that this is a not only a bad thing but a VERY bad thing! To think that his distorted views on the authority and position of pastors will be passed on to the SBC pastors is actually frightening!
The Founders movement will be very happy with CJ being there, before, during and after it. You guys underestimate how popular and influential, almost a ray of hope, SGM is in those circles. It has achieved many successes, organizational, in publishing and music, in language and the apparent absence of inner controversy, that they strive for themselves. And all that with “Reformed doctrine”, you know
Canary, I think the comparison to a supposed political civil war between what’s good and evil in your sight is really out of place here. Just saying. It would be better this kind of thing would be left out of here.
Fam,
I know Canary very well. I don’t think her civil war reference is speaking to good and evil per se, but specifically to legalism vs liberty in Christ and to authority. All analogies break down when dissected, but there are parallels between the culture wars and the “war” within God’s Church.
Perhaps you were concerned over her political statement. This being a type of public square, I don’t care if our guests want to talk about their favorite food, which should be seafood, BTW
Fam, you are a very welcome guest here, and an excellent addition to the conversation, so please take no offense at my defense of Canary.
Thanks Jim, no offense taken.
) equal cheap shots at SGM. And at those here who don’t share Canary’s opinion on what’s good and bad in politics but share her concern over SGM. And we all care about constructive shots on target, don’t we?
Not much dissection needed here though. Cheap shots at liberals (“legalists”
Famagusta,
I have to disagree with part of your comment to Canary.
First I will say that political commentaries can distract from the intended conversation here, and I would then agree with you at that level.
However,
On a larger scale, I have always considered the condition of the Church at large to be an indicator of the overall health of the Nation. As goes the Church, so goes the Nation.
I agree with Canary in the correlation between the misuse of power by our political leaders (either party included,) and the misuse of power of church (SGM in this immediate case, but any church organization shall be included) leaders.
Very similar, I think not a coincidence.
The health of the nation, to elect leaders who are so willing to remove our freedoms, and the health of the Church to allow organizations to masquerade as bringers of the Gospel and yet attempt to remove freedom in Christ from His Bride is both chilling to me. (But that’s just me.)
It is not inappropriate to correlate what we are discussing here with SGM with what everybody is aware of in our national political debates right now, but only to relate to it, and not to turn it into a political discussion here.
I think it adds a depth to the discussion of SGM’s polity.
Thanks Canary! I think you are a smart little bird!
Sorry, I meant no offense. I’m rather surprised that I was accused of throwing “cheap shots”, since that has never been my M.O. on this site. Thanks, Jim and Defender, for explaining well the meaning of my post. Sorry if I was unclear to some readers.
Canary,
To me, your statements were as clear and sweet as any tweety bird’s song.
I thank you for the insight.
Matt. 10:16
Aw, thank you, Standing_By. That makes me feel better. :)
Remember when Thomas Paine wrote, “Give me liberty, or give me death!”? Jesus says, “Through my death I gave you liberty (from our sin nature)!” I am going to celebrate this Easter (my first in a church meeting for years) that Jesus also rose and ascended in order to make our Hope alive. I lay my liberty at His feet and say, “Lord, I am YOUR slave!”
Isn’t it amazing that He calls us friends?
Still praying for you for Easter, Canary.
Thank you, Stunned.
Canary says: “Isn’t it amazing that He calls us friends?”
It is amazing!
I have this understanding of Jesus to me, (To all of us,) that is like that old movie “My Bodyguard.”
Remember that movie? About the kid going to a new school. He was a freshman or something not particularly special. All the older kids and jocks picked on him all the time. One day he was being picked on and another kid comes along and rescues him. This other kid was really big, and everyone was scared of him so he too had no friends. The two kids (the outcasts) became best friends, and nobody ever picked on the little kid again. (As I remember the movie.)
Well, that’s us (as believers.) Satan can not touch us ever again. No one can really hurt us. Our bodyguard is always there to rescue us. Best of all, he calls us His friends.
He owns us, but we are not merely His property, we are His friends!
That is just amazing. And comforting!
I LOVED that movie!
Canary — I would love it if you would walk into “my” church on Easter morning. It’s not likely — but thinking about you makes me think about those who will be coming in that day — and I hope and pray they will see Jesus in everything that’s said and done. And that you will, too – wherever you are.
Thanks, nickname. That is my prayer, too. He is risen!!
Canary– I am gladdened for you as you look forward to gathering with fellow Believers on Resurrection/Easter Sunday. From your times of sharing, it seems this is the marked time the Lord is taking you by the hand and into a congregation of His Saints—to let your heart be lifted up to sing and rejoice to your Risen Savior, Redeemer,Son of God!!
The last 4-5 years we were in SGM we were downcast and disappointed there was NO mention of the remembrance of the Resurrection on the Easter Sunday (the pastor of our very large east coast church simply continued on with the series he was currently teaching from).Sometimes we would sing 1 or 2 “Easter” songs but no scripture or remembrance of the Resurrections account was given–’ Ignoring’ Easter seemed so ……. unnatural. Our spirits were anticpating celebrating with fellow Believers the remembrance of the Resurrection, the Victory Christ brought— but apparently,’the powers that be’ had decided their continuation of given series was paramount.—- In the last year and 1/2 SGM pastors have received much communication from departing members about their concern on not hearing preaching or rare recognition on the Resurrection of Christ. We expect that now there will be more SGM churches celebrating the Resurrection on Easter Sunday—–we pray this is more than a checklist—This we know: Gods Word and account of the Resurrection joyfully proclaims the Victory,Hope, and Power of the King of Kings…
He is Risen—- He is Risen, indeed!!
Waters,
If only we’d spent less time at the cross and more time with our actual risen Lord. Needless to say, I believe the Bible’s message on the cross. However, I do not believe it is spiritually healthy to constantly remember Jesus in that situation. I would rather remember Mary and Mary running to Peter to say, “We’ve seen the Lord! He has risen!” Or the last time He stood with His disciples before He ascended, saying that they should wait for the Holy Spirit, that He was not going to leave them alone. Oh, what comfort!
I remember one Mother’s Day where the whole message at church was on sin. Our close friends left after that day. We were still embroiled in the fog of control and sin searching, so we didn’t understand until later why these friends left. They had finally had enough of only hearing about sin, not Jesus.
I am content with allowing the Holy Spirit to convict me when necessary of my hidden faults and weaknesses. He is always so gentle when He does. His heart is for there to be less of me and more of Him. It is really very simple. It is my one goal in life – that the older I get, the more people look at me and see Jesus instead of this little ole’ tweety bird. That can only happen through the Lord’s constant presence in daily life.
My fear is that, as I enter the local church arena again, I will loose this understanding because “religion” will interfere. I’ve thought long and hard about going “in love” and taking my time with the trust issue. But what of the old issue of man-pleasing? Will I be able to sit through worship without needing to get up and leave, as I remember all the times I didn’t worship in spirit and truth while in pdi? Can I sit through a forty minute sermon without thinking, “wait, the whole church is suppose to be edifying each other!” because I’ve seen that in action through the few years we house churched?
I don’t mean to make this site all about a tiny, scared yellow canary, but I feel like I’m this experiment waiting to happen. I’m sure there must be others reading who don’t post but feel the same fears I am dealing with. Not to be to melodramatic, but I am getting ready to revisit the “scene of the crime” so to speak. I do feel the support you all are giving me, like I have this small circle of saints praying. Thank you so much.
Sorry if I’m making the Refuge my personal diary – ugh – it’s just that I feel like I’m suppose to share this, and what happens as I step out. It;s part of moving on – which, by the way, I should be posting under that header instead of Metro Life. Whoops.
Aw well, it seems appropriate to end this self-absorbed post with “STAY TUNED…SAME BIRD TIME, SAME BIRD STATION.” Ha! Oh, and Metro Life, I am praying for your upcoming family meeting. God be with you, and His grace cover you all. He is faithful and good.
I came on here to tell you I’m praying for you. Please don’t feel pressured to go if at the last moment you decide to stay home. We’re praying for you, Girl and thinking about you a lot.
Stunned
Stunned,
The church is the church is the church. America is America is America.
And “religion”, that despised straw man for all our complaints about organized Christianity, is not a bad thing, after all.
And what any of those three things have to do with SGM, I don’t know.
Except that SGM largely shares the (nonsensical) conviction that “where the church goes, there goes the nation” – visit any SGM church before the 08 election, read between the lines of the pastors’ sermons before religiously loaded political decisions and you know what I mean. “Liberalism” surely is NOT what’s wrong with the movement. Cause it’s not in it to begin with.
And so.. that post was really beside the point.
Bethany’s post from January bears repeating. Her words show the importance of why people are speaking out here.
30 years,
Even if abuse is not happening with all pastors the fact that it is happening with a handful should be alarming. I attended my former church for twenty years and it wasn’t until we joined with SGM that the pastors changed. I knew these men my whole life and had great respect for them but slowly they started twisting things and slowly there hearts started to change.
Spritiual abuse is a tricky thing. It isn’t something that others can see and we have to trust and believe that our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ are telling us the truth. Which I whole heartedly believe they are doing. God has called us to care and carry the burden’s of our siblings in Christ not kick them while they are hurting, and right now we have been given a chance with this blog to be listening, praying, and caring for those hurting. Maybe there isn’t any physical harm or anything tangible that you can see but that doesn’t mean these individuals aren’t spiritually hurting. Before having my eyes opened I wouldn’t have wanted to listen nor would I believe it if former SGM members told me they had been spiritually abused but just because I wouldn’t have beleived doesn’t make it any less true.
As a young Christian (I am only 21 but have grown up in a Christian home) I can honestly say that the last five years of being with an SGM church was the worst mistake I could have ever made. It has done more harm than the world could have done to my spiritual walk (emphasis added).
Spiritual abuse is serious business. I pray all who are in pain come to realize God’s love for them and realize that a “church” with leaders lording it over the brethren is not of God.
In Revelation 2 the church at Ephesus is commended for “hating” what the Nicolaitans do. What did the Nicolaitans do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism
“Nicolaitans” “refers to the earliest form of the notion of a priestly order, or ‘clergy,’ which later divided an equal brotherhood into ‘priests’ and ‘laity.’”
The early church had no such separation of powers or hierarchy or status within the body of Christ.
The priesthood is for all believers in Christ.
I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Hi Patricia,
It seems to me that the balance of the article you refer to contradicts your point (attributed to Barnes) about Nicolaism. There are only two ways to attribute Nicolaism to a heresy on clergy: 1) to use the etymology of the name as a description of the heresy which is most likely an exegetical error or 2) to allegorize the passage in Revelation from a strictly dispensational viewpoint which is probably a hermeneutical error. From writings by those closest to the issue, including Clement, it appears that Nicolas was caught up in the Gnostic controversy involving either aestheticism or hedonism in regards to marriage.
Your statement, “The early church had no such separation of powers or hierarchy or status within the body of Christ.” is a bit unclear, because “separation of powers”, “hierarchy”, and “status” are three very different ideas. In any case, it is not true that there was no leadership or concept of authority in the early church. The discussion in scripture on leadership, especially in regards to church offices, emphaiszes the quality and integrity of the leadership rather than the structure of the leadership.
As one who has felt the sting of abusive leadership, I can say that no leadership is just as damaging as bad leadership. All leaderless movements eventually end up with bad leaders who assert control by charisma if not by divine right. Personally I think the biblical ideas of spiritual authority and the priesthood of the believer need to be understood properly and kept in balance to have a healthy church.
Having said all that, I agree with what I understand is your main point – that serving as a Christian leader does not allow for any special status or distinction from others. So, I am not trying to start and endless debate on the nature of christian leadership and the history or church structure; just that the passage in Revelation 2 is probably out of context when discussing spiritual abuse.
Greg, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think my post was misunderstood if it came across as promoting lack of leadership in the church or some such nonsense. That’s not what I meant at all.
You said: “Having said all that, I agree with what I understand is your main point – that serving as a Christian leader does not allow for any special status or distinction from others.”
Yes, that is exactly what I was saying.
Thanks for pointing out that the quote is contradictory. You are correct. I should have cited just the latter portion to show that the church “later divided an equal brotherhood into ‘priests’ and ‘laity.” I’m sorry I didn’t catch that earlier.
I have heard reputable religious scholars describe the Nicolaitan problem as the introduction of a prideful “lording it over” on the part of those in leadership, thereby placing a human mediator between the people and God and misplacing proper focus.
Christ alone is our mediator.