With the recent events at Metro in Orlando, which is the Florida flagship SGM church, and the home of the apostle of the SE, I wanted to start a new thread. SGM knows exactly how I feel about the apostle Jones, and this is an area of discussion where I find it impossible to be objective. I’ll use the first informational comment as the main post, and will move comments already posted into this thread.
Post by Dorothy is Leaving Oz on Jan 7:
Yes, Sigelman. I can. Just need a few days to process. Here is what I can get out.
Legalism of Virginia Beach Repeats Itself in Orlando.
Pastor leaves staff, as in resigns and quits after 7 plus years. No immorality, nothing inappropriate. He not only leaves Metro but SGM as well. Church is in tremendous pain. This man is more than loved here.
On one hand Danny Jones and Dave Harvey praised Todd and wanted to support him hearing from God to leave Metro and SGM, and with the other hand - backhandedly -condemned him for not wanting to stay and go through an examination process with the rest of the pastoral staff. < Staff infighting over the past year demanded big guns from SGM to step in to help bring stabilization back in November, so we were told in nicer terms.> Guess Todd said no. Why go through one more kangaroo court? Why go through any more pain? It certainly didn’t work with Brent until enough people got hurt. Something no one will talk about.
I am sorry Dave H, but the lame excuse that we are all sinners and people in a church can expect to get hurt is a POOR EXCUSE FOR POOR MANIPULATIVE LEADERSHIP. < you know, when you walk in to the office and meet with Benny over anything ,you are told what you have to say is full of pride and or sin? > We get lambasted when we sin and are declared unusable vessels but that’s YOUR excuse when LEADERSHIP sins against the church? We can EXPECT it? P.S. they continue leading in spite of the pain they inflict.
Danny made like it was a big surprise that Bob K and Dave H were there tonight. SOMEBODY CALLED THEM HERE! Like they really just showed up without letting anyone know they were coming? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Danny made like they did not see Todd’s leaving was coming.I don’t buy that either. He got tired of beating a dead horse like the rest of us on the way out the door. Maybe because they are all yes men protecting their jobs, homes, and lifestyles. Maybe Todd has an eternal prospective and is more concerned about following God than being a yes man, having a new house and job that he loved. Integrity! Todd still has his intact. He looses it all by resigning. Professionally and personally. God will honor that!
There is only so much you can say until you just give up. Guess Todd did. I am sure for the sake of his family and own mental and spiritual health it was time. Personally,I am still waiting for answers from meetings I had with Benny and then with Danny over 12 weeks ago. I am done waiting. I am leaving Oz. I am not the only one.
Todd was the only pastor on the staff with any integrity or guts to call a spade a spade and confront this group of blind men, as well as go with the wounded sheep to Danny Jones and be a third ear. Todd was the only one with any real joy and real grace. Todd handed in his letter of resignation on Sunday, hence emergency meeting three days later, Wednesday night Jan 6 th. Unfortunately, the wrong one pastor left. The score? Jocks- 100/ Worship ministry-0. Flock left bloody in the aisles. Film at 11.
Dave H and Bob K in the house. A bit too late guys! Dave attempts to walk us through with a mini sermon ” Don’t Waste Your Departing”. Don’t even ask.
He even tried to inject some humor. There was nothing funny about it or this hurtful situation. Then he tried to re-envision the church with recommitment and reflect on why you came to Metro to begin with. It was a poor attempt of damage control. The whole night was.
Now watch more people bail out. Last straw for many, myself included. I am a emotional mess. I have been a part PDI/SGM most of my adult life ….a lifetime. I can not remember the last time I cried like this. The thought of starting someplace else is devastating, but I can no longer stay. Details later, if I can even deal with repeating them.
Virgina Beach repeats itself in Orlando. Legalism has destroyed another church. Satan has another hay day. Blinders still remain on Metro’s remaining staff under the guise of being faithful, loyal, accountable and teachable. It is time for the remaining pastoral staff to face the truth. Self seeking divisiveness is in your midst. What is so funny is Benny thinks no one notices. Benny, we all notice. You have an agenda and it is being the ruling reigning King at Metro Life Church by whatever means. You’ve played this game before. You know what not to do. You obviously are playing better ball. This whole thing stinks. I am asking you all not to reveal. Please please pray. Dorothy.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Thanks for the update regarding Orlando. Being an hour away, I’m very surprised that they haven’t had much airtime here.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 10:34am
Dear Jesus, this is painfully, painfully familiar. My heart and prayers are with all the beloved children of God struggling today in Orlando.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:51 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 1:55pm
Dorothy,
Your Oz comparison is right on. Oz was an illusion, just like the ”grace” in Sovereign Grace.
Dear Lord, when will this end? Your sheep are being eaten alive by false shepherds. Comfort the lost and confused, Jesus, as they leave Metro Life. Let their souls find rest in the quiet so that they might hear your sweet, gentle voice. You are their true Shepherd, and know just exactly what to say.
Dorothy, I feel such compassion for you. I wish I could hug you tightly. I can reassure you that this is the beginning of a great journey into grace. It is so painful at first. The sense of betrayal, the fear and anger, all are natural. The Lord will walk through it all with you, bringing you to a place of peace. Please give yourself time to mourn, time to understand, and time to heal.
I was a part of sgm when it was PDI, most of my adult life, as well. The pain of leaving was unbelievable. Yet, 13 years later I stand strong in the Lord, full of grace. I know His love like never before. The joy of the Lord is real, even in hard times. I am so grateful that my husband and I left when we did, rescuing our children from “Oz” as well. You will be grateful one day, too.
In the meantime, we are here to help if you need it. Many of us know what you are experiencing, and mourn with you the loss of friends and the sense of belonging. You are not alone. YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Very sincerely, Canary
January 9th, 2010 at 11:52 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 2:00pm
Dorothy, I’m so very sorry for your pain.
In Eden there were 2 trees. One, with the knowledge of good & evil, and the other was the Tree of Life. YOU are grafted in to the Tree of Life thru our Savior’s precious blood. The other tree is all about knowledge, examination and sadly, good-looking flesh.
My prayer is that you can press in to Jesus, the giver of Life and the only one who can share true comfort, as it’s really against Him and His body that this strife rages.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:53 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 2:17pm
Very well stated Defended, words of LIFE. The “church machine” so wants to christianize the flesh, much like trying to improve the dark without using light.
Dorothy, there is LIFE and joy and real peace after SGM. Follow your heart; HE will lead you and care for you.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 2:18pm
“Let my eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease for the…daughter of my people has been smitten with a great wound, a very grievous blow.” Jeremiah 14:17
“Jesus wept.” John 11:35
“May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts!
May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love, that you may have the power and be strong to apprehend and grasp with all the saints [God's devoted people, the experience of that love ] what is the breadth and length and height and depth [of it]:
That you may really come to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience];
That you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!” Ephesians 3:17-19, Amplified Bible.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 4:23pm
PRAISE GOD!!!! Sorry for shouting but I personally know Todd. Whenever I hear that someone I know sees the light, I can only praise the One who opened his eyes!!! Thank you, Jesus! Wow, I haven’t felt this hopeful for a long time.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:56 am
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 8:41pm
This, SGM defenders, is why we, your former brothers and sisters from the “local churches” are here. NOT to be bitter and divisive, but to warn and then to be there for those that need us when the inevitable fallout occurs. I hate what Satan is doing. I hate this false humility and legalism and what it does to those dear ones that just want to follow Jesus with all their heart.
Disillusionment can be a very very hard thing to go through, but the LORD is faithful. He will bind up the broken-hearted. He is faithful, He is kind, He loves His children SO MUCH. Things will get better, I have seen this. It’s been over 2 years since I cried and cried and cried, and it is getting better. I will never blindly trust in man again, only Jesus is worthy. We CAN hear the voice of God no matter what these men have said. We have the Holy Spirit within us, He is with us always.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Dorothy & all the others who are hurting tonight }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—-hugs
Ellie
January 9th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 9:55pm
Dear Dorothy,
My wife and I are so very sorry for you! We had been part of the Orlando church for almost 10 years when we followed the rainbow to the Denver Church. We stayed there seven years while we watched our own Oz disintegrate as family after family left. The Wicked Witch of the West found her way into our church and Legalism, Arrogance and Pride (oh my!) ravaged the flock, leaving many wounded, bleeding and marred. Sadly some left Christianity and to this day have not returned. Interestingly enough, the pastor of the Denver church had spent more than a decade under Benny’s tutelage.
We were in a position to have input, and were even part of the “process” to try and fix what was wrong in the Denver church. Unfortunately, the biggest thing that was wrong was the process! Despite apostolic oversight, month upon month passed with little to no change, and those of us who were bleeding on the front line received little to no care. If meetings with B are anything like meetings with the Denver pastor, they were confusing, accusatory and skillfully articulated to point the broomstick of Sin in your direction. “You’re bitter, and that invalidates your observation!”, “Have you dealt with your own sin in bringing that to me?” and dozens of similar responses. It is the sovereign grace book you won’t see on the book table – “A Hundred and One Ways to Avoid Receiving Correction – Pastors Only Edition”. I suppose I am just being bitter and this invalidates my observations.
Dorothy, my wife and I feel your pain. It is hard for us to not get emotional about another flock being ravaged. We ARE praying for you, and for so many others that we still know at Metro who are in similar situation. You have finally seen the Wizard for what he is.
There is hope. It was devastating for my wife and I when we made the decision that we could stay no more. Our marriage was a shamble, and our lives little better. But God saw fit to fix this. We found a new church that we have grown to love. We are reminded in new and wonderful ways about the love of God, and have one again found His grace to be truly amazing! Our marriage has grown stronger again, and we have realized that the body of Christ is So Much Bigger than just Sovereign Grace!
I cannot advise whether to stay or go, but pray, follow your heart, and click your heels three times and you will find home!
I also continue to pray for Danny and the staff for both Orlando churches. I am not sure, but it seems that the Danny I knew, like the Winkies, has fallen the spell of the witch.
Dorthy, a brighter day is coming!
January 9th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/07 at 10:37pm
Well said, Ellie!
January 9th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 1:24am
Dorothy,
There is a new day dawning for you. the pain is great, the disbelief that one such as Todd could be treated so poorly. My wife and i left metro effectively in april of ‘09 and officially in July. this was the hardest decision I have ever made in my life. i had been with the fellowship when danny initially left calvary assembly 25 years ago and i had know some of the people ther for 30 years or more.
Well, I can testify that there is abundant life once you remove yourself from the life defying, legalistic, overbearing authoritative, cross-centered calvinism that is SGM.
My wife and i discovered everywhere we went there was God breathed life and and a wonderful freedom in Christ. the Lord was faithful to lead us to a wonderful new fellowwship and God is truly blessing us and causing us to grow.
It is both a sad day and a day of rejoicing. maybe this is the long awaited wake-up call. I doubt it after hearing all the reports on how the meeting was handled and the obvious deception that took place in an effort for damage control. Blind people will lead the blind into the ditch or over the cliff. You got off the train in time.
To all my friends still there at Metro you now have an in your face understanding of part of the many reasons as to why my wife and i left Metro. For those who or in the place of trying to decide what to do next you are in our thoughts and prayers. if need be give me a call or my wife. we fully understand the pain and we are here to provide comfort and refuge in Christ. for it is in Christ alone that we will as Christians find our freedom and joy unspeakable and full of glory.
May the Lord bless you and keep you and welcome back to Florida (Kansas) Dorothy!!!!!!
January 9th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 2:38am
Dorothy so very sorry for the painful days you and your church family are walking through. Our family will be praying for you all. You and the T family will have joy beyond and even through the pain. Praying the Lord will use these sad events to open many eyes to see that Oz isn’t always what it seems, and maybe Kansas isn’t so bad after all. Your God will go before you with each step you take, don’t be afraid.
Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.
Psalm 30:5
Hope
(recently departed from SG)
January 9th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 9:04am
“you are bitter and that invalidates your observation.”
that well used phrase works well in Northern Virginia and Senior pastors greet you as if nothing ever happened.
Dorothy, we feel your pain..believe me.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 12:59pm
Flotsam and Jetsam said:
“You’re bitter, and that invalidates your observation!”, “Have you dealt with your own sin in bringing that to me?” and dozens of similar responses. It is the sovereign grace book you won’t see on the book table – “A Hundred and One Ways to Avoid Receiving Correction – Pastors Only Edition”. I suppose I am just being bitter and this invalidates my observations.
Nice phrase and way of putting that.
It is so sad where one hears so many reports of how SGM Leaders like to turn the tables on someone bringing to a leader an “observation.” I wonder how intentional this is or are these leaders only good at seeing others problems and sin and not their own. As you point out, even if a person bringing this up is bitter does that negate what they brought up about a leader if it is true?
Of course who would expect these leaders to have any sin since they always parade themselves as being “imperfect.” Too bad these “imperfect” leaders rarely want to admit any of their own imperfections.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 3:39pm
I’d really like to hear from people via email who are currently having the tables turned on them.
SGM leadership is currently acting like this in an anomaly-a part of their past that rarely happens today.
I’ll be happy to inform them that they are misinformed.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
January 9th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 5:38pm
“We received a lavish outpouring of grace Wednesday night! Meetings like this are never easy and so much can easily be misunderstood, but from those I talked to last night after the meeting, God’s grace is evident. How grateful I am for that!!
Thank you again, for making this time together possible. If you were unable to be with us, we did record the meeting and would be glad to get a copy to you.
As you process all you heard, please feel free to contact the pastoral team with any questions or observations you might have. We want to make it easy for you to express your heart and share your observations. “Speaking the truth in love” brings glory to God and good to our church
family.
…
Join with me in believing for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro. We need it so much!
Danny Jones”
January 9th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/08 at 11:54pm
Well, I can testify that there is abundant life once you remove yourself from the life defying, legalistic, overbearing authoritative, cross-centered calvinism that is SGM.
A minor clarification.
SGM is not cross centered Calvinism.
Do NOT reject Calvinism when you can have the deep and lasting joy of reading men like Edwards, LLoyd- Jones, Iain Murray, Burroughs, Pink, and hundreds more. Do NOT confuse CJM with godly pious Calvinists who have entered into the deep love and grace of God and the depths of His holy word like few of us ever have. Calvinism is the gospel and man centered Arminianism is error. What you tasted at SGM is NOT true Calvinism.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 1:15am
Dorothy-
I’m sorry for the hurt you’ve endured…
Peace to you-MM
January 9th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 6:34am
5yearsinpdi–wasn’t throwing Calvinism under the bus. All the adjectives were defining for me the poor interpretation and practice of Calvinism at SGM. I currently attend a church that would call its doctrine Calvinistic, but the life experienced there is so completely different–like walking from a smoke filled room into fresh mountain air!!!
The main point is that there is a great life awaiting those who leave SGM. it may hurt for a season, but the Lord will see you through to the other side of the pain and into a joy fulled life in Christ!!!
January 9th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 6:38am
Flotsam and Jetsam– so sorry to hear what happened to you in Colorado. So enjoyed working together on the Star Trek skits!!! You are loved and missed. BTW, i got married-finally in Nov of ‘06. You would love my wife-she makes me look so much better than i am!!!
January 9th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 10:53am
All the adjectives were defining for me the poor interpretation and practice of Calvinism at SGM. I currently attend a church that would call its doctrine Calvinistic, but the life experienced there is so completely different–like walking from a smoke filled room into fresh mountain air!!!
Precisely! My experience as well.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 11:25am
Jim, I would like to send you some info can you contact me through my email???
January 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Submitted on 2010/01/09 at 11:43am
John-sure thing.
January 9th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
John Galt,
Without getting too specific (unless you want to), I think that there are many current Metro members who would love to hear more about your experience at your new church.
I just have a feeling
January 9th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I’m currently a member at Metro.
I certainly would appreciate recommendations of churches in the Orlando area that have the blend of sound doctrine and contemporary worship. It is that blend that drew me to Metro, not its affiliation with SGM. What is causing me to reevaluation my membership at Metro now is its affiliation with the SGM. The issues that have been documented in this blog and sgm survivors raise concerns about the SGM leadership that provides oversight and “help” to Metro.
If I leave it won’t be because of Todd’s departure. Rather it will be because I’ve lost confidence in the leadership team. After all, it they created an environment that caused Todd to leave (and he strikes me as an incredibly gracious and patient man) I can’t imagine why I’d want to stay. I wonder what else happens behind closed doors.
I think that most people will stay at Metro. After all Danny and Dave said that the best days lie ahead so it must be true.
January 9th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Can someone clarify for me – is Benny P. a pastor at Metro Life, a little lower on the totem pole? Thanks.
January 9th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Canary,
Benny is the executive pastor of MLC.
To determine what an executive pastor does, just read Acts 20, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
January 9th, 2010 at 6:53 pm
Brothers and sisters in Christ at Metro Life, here’s my question for you:
Given that the best possible scenario is that ALL of Metro Life will take this as a wake up call and do something to thrive and not just survive, much less crumble…..
Just what is it going to take to fix this situation, restore authentic credibility to the leadership, and bring lasting healing and growth to the body of Christ at Metro Life?
Be specific and most of all constructive!
It’s OK to come out of lurkdom! This is your time to shine!
January 9th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Another question…
What do you appreciate about Metro Life that you don’t want anyone to change during the upheaval?
January 9th, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Hi all. I go to Metro and I don’t understand what specifically is going wrong in leadership so until someone, like maybe Todd, comments here and tells me SPECIFICS then I have no reason to get my undies in a bunch. Everything else is just speculation as to what the problems are. There were no specifics mentioned on Wednesday night. MetroStill – What does it mean when you ask whats it’s going to take to restore authentic credibility? What specifically happened that made leadership lose credibility? I’m a bit confused here…
January 9th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Nice to hear from you again “John Galt”. Look me up on facebook, would be nice to talk to you. The same is true of anyone else at Metro who knew us that has questions about our experience in Denver.
January 9th, 2010 at 8:42 pm
First, I’d like to welcome my neighbors from Central Florida.
MetroStill-good questions.
Confused Metroite-Todd won’t be posting here. There are people who know what the issue among the leadership team are. I hope that your questions are answered, and I hope that you will consider what you hear might possibly true, even if the person telling you isn’t a pastor.
I’d encourage everyone to stay tuned. I’m an hour away, and won’t be the one to share details, unless I’m asked to by multiple parties who all tell me the same story.
January 9th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
Confused Metroite: Enough was acknowledged on Wednesday night to let the congregation know that there has been on-going conflict among the leadership team warranting them calling in intervention from SGM uppers. Enough has been said here at Refuge and over at Survivors to call into question the way issues have already been handled not only recently, but for many years. I have heard from many people who have visited Metro Life and been turned off by the legalism. Other members have shared with me their frustration with counseling situations or with times when they have tried to bring an observation and felt like they have not been taken seriously. So I think many people do not trust them at one level or another. These folks have either already quit or are ready to quit if they don’t see substantive, immediate, and lasting attempts to repair the damage. I don’t have specifics on all of these things either, but I know just from observation and listening that things are NOT healthy as they are and that if things don’t change, this church will suffer even more than it already has.
I personally appreciate each of the pastors for how much they have served over the years, each with their own giftings, even though not as sufficiently as some would expect. They are not villains, just flawed human beings like you and me. Can you imagine shouldering the responsibilities they have? I can’t! God bless them for being willing to try. I wouldn’t trade places with them for anything. They may have gotten themselves into a huge pickle, but by the grace of God, for whom nothing is impossible, I think they can manage to restore the trust of those who question what has happened and why. I sincerely hope that will happen. But just like we don’t want to live in a sin sniffing atmosphere, we shouldn’t try to fix the problem by bashing the pastors. I think our best hope is to encourage them by sharing specific positive things they can DO to truly solve this problem. What strengths do each of them bring to the table? What would a real solution look like to you?
So my additional question would also be, what do you LIKE about each of the pastors at Metro? With all of the pressure that will be on them to do things differently, what do you NOT want them to change about themselves? It would be a huge irony if they messed things up by trying to fix them.
The problem certainly does not lie in the pastors alone. It has trickled down into the rest of the church. We ALL need to change the way we think. The new, much needed sermon series on grace is going to help (I hope! Good start!) but only if each of us personally takes it to heart and starts living and relating that way. Our home groups and other ministries need to reflect that as well. I encourage each of you to read up on a variety of solid Christian books that won’t be found in the church bookstore. Get your broader perspective. You’re going to need it.
The other thing is don’t be afraid to send an e-mail, make a phone call or set an appointment with the pastors to let them know your concerns and questions personally. Lose your fear! Go boldly. Go confidently. Don’t be apologetic or tentative. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. They can handle it. They need to hear it from as many people as possible. Remember, this is YOUR church, not just theirs!
January 9th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Confused: There will be no specifics. See the excerpt from Danny’s letter posted above.
And the very fact that there no specifics should already pose a problem for you!
A healthy church faces its demons, goes through evaluation and mediation processes, involves the members, instead of treating them as an audience and smothering them with phrases about “a challenge” “easy to misunderstand” “lavish outpouring of grace” (what?) “move of the holy spirit” and other nice-sounding lingo from the Gaithersburg think tank. Confused, that alone is a reason to get your “undies in a bunch” already.
January 9th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Confused Metroite,
Is it Todd’s responsibility to share specifics? Danny said that there are issues within the leadership team but didn’t elaborate. These issues didn’t just arise so I’m sure he could have articulated where the issues lie but either chose not to or was advised not to by SGM. In a family meeting I expect transparency. Lack therof decreases credibility. I didn’t come to the family meeting expecting solutions, but I came expecting answers and was sorely disappointed.
If Todd thought it necessary to resign AND withdraw his family’s membership that also decreases credibility of the leadership team. He saw such a deficiency in leadership (and he was no the inside) that he chose to protect his family by leaving Metro. I respect Todd’s judgment. I wish I knew specifics but in their absence I’m not sure I want to continue to submit to leadership that would cause a person I respect to have no other option to resign.
Having said all that, I know that God will use this experience for good. For some that will be staying and others that may mean departing. I’m on the fence.
I’d love to know what Jim and perhaps others know. From some of the posts I’ve read on this site, a couple of our pastors aren’t held in high regard.
January 9th, 2010 at 9:35 pm
Oh, and for the record I don’t want to know specifics so that I can gossip and slander.
I want to be able to make an informed decision as to whether I should move my family to another church.
Todd’s departure and how issues within the leadership team are handled are important to me.
January 9th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
That’s exactly the problem Confused. Leadership’s underlying premise in ALL of SGMs has been that it is not your business to know the specifics of what’s going wrong with leadership when something does. Even if the ship was sinking (which I’m not saying nor hoping it is) they’d be swabbing the upper deck while serving “grace-filled” sermons and authentic, lively worship (although that is a bit of a problem without the worship guy.). If you’re waiting for specific info to be “special delivery-ed” from leadership in order to be reassured that all’s well, you may want to rethink that and ask them the hard questions. Give Todd and your pastors a call. You shouldn’t have to look on a BLOG to find out what’s going on in your own church people. Confused and other Metro family, are you seriously comfortable having your pastors go unquestioned when a beloved friend leaves without explanation?? It is not gossip, lack of faith or rebellion to ask questions about what’s going on folks: this is your church too. The Lord does not expect us to blindly follow leaders when the truth is screaming “something’s not right.” Respect your elders and submit to their authority, but if they lie to you (etc…) then it’s time for YOU to ask some questions. Shine the light, if there’s nothing hiding in the closet, then all you’ll see is light.
Metrostill, I’m not from Metro, but how about: Honesty
C’ mon, Bob and Dave were just in the neighborhood (and showed up for tea,) that’s a lively (yet somehow strangely familiar) tale? Why the lies??? Why must the congregation be treated as fools? Can we say ‘priesthood of believers’ guys?
Hope (recently departed from SG)
January 9th, 2010 at 10:24 pm
Jim, my comment is awaiting moderation since 9, while others have already posted since then – is there a glitch? I don’t think I said anything unruly…:)
January 9th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
Alright, since moderation seems to be less strict now, here’s my former comment from 9 pm to the many confused metronians, again:
Confused: There will be no specifics. See the excerpt from Danny’s letter posted above.
And the very fact that there no specifics should already pose a problem for you!
A healthy church faces its demons, goes through evaluation and mediation processes, involves the members, instead of treating them as an audience and smothering them with phrases about “a challenge” “easy to misunderstand” “lavish outpouring of grace” (what?) “move of the holy spirit” and other nice-sounding lingo from the Gaithersburg think tank. Confused, that alone is a reason to get your “undies in a bunch” already.
January 9th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Sigelman,
The blog has a mind of it’s own. No one is currently placed in moderation by me. The blog software randomly sticks comments in moderation. My wife, who is a moderator, always has her comments stuck in moderation. Canary, a regular here, has over half of her comments stuck in moderation.
I clear them as fast as I can. If I have an issue with someone I contact them offline. You are welcome here, and welcome to say whatever you like.
January 9th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
OK, my last comment is out of moderation now too. Just scroll up a bit if you missed it. It’s the long one posted at 8:46 PM. Thanks, Jim and Carole!
Hope, I agree about the honesty being needed, but there has to be discretion, too. Each one should admit his own sins, not resorting to public blameshifting or mud slinging. They did say they would give more information later. I’m hoping they will.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:20 pm
MetroStill,
“Each one should admit his own sins.” Agreed. That could have been done Wednesday night. Why wasn’t it?
“They did say they would give more information later.” Why do I have to wait until later? The leadership knew Wednesday about its own issues. They weren’t anything new. I doubt that Todd’s resignation has brought to light any new issues. I believe Danny said that there were issues since earlier in 2009. There was information that was intentionally withheld. I don’t understand how being open means blameshifting and mud slinging.
I do take issue with how Danny said he invited Todd to be part of the process but he declined. It painted Todd as a person who didn’t care to help with the solution which isn’t fair to Todd.
I appreciate anyone who serves in ministry. I understand that we are all sinners and, thankfully, have a Savior. I just want to be treated like an equal. I don’t see a pastor having special privileges. We are all a priesthood of believers. I’m not sure why there can’t be free flow of information if we are truly a family.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:52 pm
Hope,
You said, “C’ mon, Bob and Dave were just in the neighborhood (and showed up for tea,) that’s a lively (yet somehow strangely familiar) tale? Why the lies???”
How serious is lying? Revelation 21:8 says “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Um, yes, lying is a very big deal.
If there is habitual (“strangely familiar” to use your words) lying among SGM leaders, that is a VERY serious thing. We need to ask questions to clearly expose this and deal decisively with it if SGM leaders are actually habitually lying.
January 10th, 2010 at 12:39 am
Jim, as I said, I thought it was a glitch. No feelings of rejection on my part ;;) Don’t worry.
January 10th, 2010 at 3:08 am
I have no way of knowing if the people here talking about MLC are new to the blog or not.
The mindset of leaders within SGM has been discussed here for 19 months. It’s really simple.
Your leaders will serve you by sharing or withholding information as they see fit.
They decide, as they know what is best for you. Your job is to trust and obey them.
Now keep writing those checks to keep the machine running, but don’t think that you deserve to be treated like an adult.
Trust and obey.
January 10th, 2010 at 9:07 am
Metroites -
You may never get your answers, we having been waiting one year for Fairfax to honestly answer our questions about how they responded to our childs molestation.
This is what we are getting from them:
“thanks for your question, that’s a great question.” (although I have no intention of answering it)
“thanks for your patience.”
“I’m leaving the country for 2 weeks” (and in this age of limited technology, surely we can understand their difficulty in accessing the internet)
“I’m going on vacation….again”
and their favorite:
“out of office reply”
They have till the 31st.
January 10th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Jim,
I thought it might be beneficial for your new audience to read the following article. Some of your regulars will relate, as well. I’m praying for all those at Metro.
Blessings,
Kindred
HOW ABUSIVE MINISTRIES DEFEND THEMSELVES
Philip Rosenthal
25 Jan 2006.
When one hears news of unethical behaviour in some ministries, one may wonder how the leader managed to avoid being held accountable. Many such ministries have developed sophisticated mechanisms to defend themselves from accountability. Often these methods have become part of the senior leadership culture, but no one else knows about them. Thus they can catch people by surprise. Unsuspecting enthusiastic young Christians involve themselves under the authority of a dynamic and successful ministry leadership – not realising that the leader and his organisational hierarchy is itself not subject to proper authority checks and balances. We all like to think that the ministry to which we belong is spiritual and in the will of God, but multiple scandals have to force us to sober up and consider what we can do to protect our own ministry against falling into such behaviour.
THE ‘KANGAROO COURT’, ‘GANG UP’ OR ‘ABUSIVE INTERROGATION’
One of the most effective methods is the ‘Kangaroo Court’, otherwise known as the ‘gang up’ or ‘abusive interrogation’. The person raising an objection is invited to a meeting, to discuss his concerns. He is not allowed to bring any witnesses, as the meeting is supposedly a ‘friendly one’. He is also asked not to take notes at the meeting, since it is ‘friendly’. On arrival he finds four to six senior leaders in the ministry waiting for him. Nevertheless, the issues he has come to discuss will not be discussed. The meeting has one purpose only – to neutralise the person trying to hold the ministry accountable – by any means possible.
The abusive leader may has usually developed something of a ‘personality cult following’. Some loyal yes-men may participate in such behaviour with the best intentions, believing they are protecting the ministry from a ‘troublemaker’ or ‘division’.
Sometimes the leaders will be introduced in a grandiose manner, in an effort to intimidate the objector – using big titles and bloated achievements. Then the accusations begin. The leaders attack the objector with any type of accusation they can think of. The objector may try to defend himself, but this will not be allowed. If he tries to do so, another leader will accuse him of disrespect. At this point it becomes evident that the meeting is an ambush and is not a friendly discussion about concerns with the ministry. There is no logical or fair discussion. The leaders know that if they were to allow this, they may lose, so they don’t allow it. They just attack. The abusive leaders take turns to attack and may interrupt each other to add to the abusive accusations.
HOW TO FIND ACCUSATIONS AGAINST AN INNOCENT PERSON
How do the leaders find the accusations? Anything in the objectors favour is reversed in these attacks. For example, if he has raised the same concerns with other leaders, then he is accused of ’slander’. If some of the other leaders agree with him, then he is accused of ‘divisiveness’. An objection to the ministry raised at the meeting becomes evidence of ‘disrespect’. If he wanted to bring a witness or wants confirmation of records, then he is accused of ‘not trusting the leaders’. If he doesn’t bring a witness, then he can be accused of ‘acting alone’. Raising problems in the ministry is ‘troublemaking’. If the objector is part of the ministry leadership, he can be accused of ‘unsubmissiveness’. If he is not part of the leadership, then he can be accused of ‘lack of accountability’ or ‘not being a leader’ and thus having no right to raise objections. A general accusation that can be levelled at anyone raising objections to a ministry’ behaviour is ‘a bad attitude’, since this is unprovable. If he is disagreeing with the ministry tradition, then this must be evidence of ‘pride’. An objection to a policy of the ministry is ‘hurtful’ to the leaders of the ministry. All of the above require ‘repentance’.
The leaders may try to attack the status of the objector. A technique is to make them wait a long time outside. Then they can be attacked for any reason e.g. marital status; lack of ordination or leadership status within the ministry; spiritual maturity; sanity etc.
Most of all, however, the leaders aim to attack the character of the person raising the objections to the ministry.
Another source of items to attack is issues totally unrelated and irrelevant to the current issues in question. Take trivial past incidents and blow them up into big issues trying to prove guilt. This practice is know as ‘manufacturing offence’ and is related to bearing false witness against ones neighbour – a violation of the 9th commandment, with the intention of undermining or destroying his reputation.
If the abusive leader doesn’t know anything against the objector, then he can at least in some ministries use his ’spiritual gift of discernment’. i.e. Pretend that the ‘Holy Spirit’ has shown him all kinds of problems in the life and background of the victim/objector.
Efforts are made to get the objector to ‘confess his sin’. If he does so, this can be used against him and he may feel legitimately guilty. Trying to get the objector to do this is a clever manipulative trick, because:
If he does not, he can be accused of lying or covering up because everyone sins so often (1 John 1:8; James 3:2). The objector may then be accused further of ‘obstinacy’.
If he does confess, then the abusive leaders can distract the focus of the meeting from the serious sin of the organisation or leader to whatever has been confessed. The confidence of the objector may also be weakened.
During the discussion, the abusive leaders may try to legitimise their authority through dubious theology. Any attempt to debate this or other ethical issues related to the objection will not be tolerated. The objective of the meeting again is not to find truth, but to silence the objector.
Another tactic is for the interrogators to provoke the objector to anger with false accusations and then accuse them of being angry. If the objector shows signs of frustration, he may be accused of ‘bitterness’.
By attacking the objector personally, mistreating and slandering him, rather than discussing his concerns, the abusive leaders lay the groundwork for more potential further accusations. The objector must now show even more restraint in raising his objections, lest he be accused of ‘taking revenge’ for personal reasons, rather than those of the public good. The leaders move attention off themselves and onto the person making the objections. Hence the saying ‘the best defence is a good offence’.
THE THREAT AND ULTIMATUM
At the end of the meeting, which may last several hours, the objector will be given threats and an ultimatum to shut up or leave the ministry. The ultimatum may include methods to control the objector, that will have been agreed by the leaders beforehand. The abusive ministry leaders want the objector to come under their control. They can do this for example by setting up a structure which they invite the objector to join or alternatively demanding that he ‘be discipled’ or ‘counselled’. Obviously, the point of such a ’structure’ or ‘discipling’ or ‘counselling’ is to change his mind or alternatively intimidate him into shutting up.
If the objector at a later time tries to clear his name either by explaining or apologising for whatever accusations have been made, this will be fruitless. The issue is that the ministry leaders are not interested in the truth. They just want to silence the objector. The abusive leaders may be too busy to meet again. Alternatively, the objector must waste his time trying to meet with each of them individually. The point is that the ministry doesn’t want to know the truth, because that might be painful and cause them to have to change their behaviour. The only thing they want is for the objector to withdraw his objections and shut up.
By this time, the objectors mind will be focused on defending themselves rather than the original purpose of the meeting, which was to discuss his objection. He is now in a vulnerable position to agree to shut up.
Now most people have no idea that the leaders they respect and look up to can be manipulative and abusive. But these things happen in ministries as with some families and also romantic relationships. So, unprepared the victim/objector may be in a state of shock and think that they may truly have done something wrong – which they need to try remedy.
An easy threat is that the leadership will publicise the abusive false accusations. Others, not knowing that they are from an abusive ministry or otherwise in denial may believe them.
ALTERNATING TO FLATTERY AND CONCILIATION
If the above approach does not work, and the objector is not intimidated by the abusive behaviour but persists with objections, then the abusive leaders may either escalate the abusiveness or alternatively shift to conciliation and flattery. This is similar to an abusive husband who beats his wife and then the next day tries to romance her so that she forgives him.
After such abuse, the objector/victim will often be so relieved by the shift to conciliation that he will accept anything rather than re-raise his issues of objection. The issues can thus just be sidelined by evasion and doublespeak without the need for the use of additional threats. The objector may be offered some benefits from the ministry in exchange for dropping the issue.
Nevertheless, if the objector does persist, the ‘Good cop-bad cop’ manipulation technique will shift back to abusiveness. If they cannot silence the objector then they will have to find a way to discredit them (using true or false accusations) or otherwise evict them from the ministry.
ETHICAL PROBLEMS
Now there are serious ethical problems with the above approach:
It is deceptive to invite someone to a ‘friendly’ meeting, which is actually an ambush.
It is manipulative to forbid bringing a witness. This then gives the abusive leaders two further tools of manipulation. Firstly they can deny their abusiveness at the meeting; and Secondly, they can later accuse the objector of anything having happened at the meeting, for example being ‘disrespectful’ – and then use this to institute disciplinary procedures against him.
It is unfair to criticise without giving a person the opportunity to defend themselves.
It does not follow any biblical disciplinary or grievance procedure.
It is clearly aimed at frustrating biblical procedure being used to try to hold the leaders accountable. Because of this it can be manipulated and also the victim cannot legitimately proceed to the next stage of church discipline, because they have no witness to the discussion. Thus the abusive leaders are protected, while the objector is vulnerable.
It frustrates the opportunity to resolve the concerns of the objector in a reasonable way. In this way, either it will be suppressed altogether – or alternatively escalated if he decides to pursue it. Either method is usually unhealthy.
The above methods are classic abusive manipulation techniques developed by the communists to try to break people who dissented with communism. With the communists they were usually successful. This is classic brainwashing methodology. Communist methodology should not be tolerated in Christian ministries.
An atmosphere of ungodly fear develops in the ministry, and less courageous people learn that they should not challenge the autocratic leadership. Then more hypocrisy and abusiveness is tolerated.
It is a way of ‘finding out’ more information from the objector so that any future real disciplinary or grievance procedure can be frustrated by cover up or false accusations against the objector.
The goal of silencing the objector can be achieved by the following mechanisms:
The objector genuinely is convinced by the abuse of the leaders that he is in the wrong and needs to repent. (brainwashing)
The objector leaves the ministry.
The objector is intimidated into silence.
The objector agrees to participate in the recommended leadership structure, counselling or ‘discipleship’, by which he is then further manipulated.
All of the above constitute unethical manipulation.
The abuse of trust of position as a ministry undermines respect for the office of other good ministry leaders.
Such false accusations can do serious psychological damage, especially to an emotionally weak person.
The leaders are de-facto judging their own case, where they have a conflict of interest. Effectively, the disciplinary process is inverted and reversed. Rather, if it cannot be resolved privately, outside mediation should be brought in.
The leaders have pre-determined an outcome which they want to manipulate the victim/objector to accept.
The biggest problem with the above is that most of the time it is effective. Once all objectors are silenced and the ministry is in denial, then all types of hypocrisy and abusiveness can flourish. The climate has been created where scandal can fester and grow.
WHY DO OTHERWISE GOOD LEADERS BEHAVE LIKE THIS?
Many people will have a difficulty with understanding how leaders who are otherwise often nice people can use such manipulation and thus not want to believe it. One must understand that in abusive families, the father is usually outwardly a nice person, but sometimes something triggers his abusiveness, for example alcohol. The dynamic is similar in abusive ministries. In this case, the trigger is a threat to power. Abusive leaders are driven by a love of power. Any attempt to take it away will elicit a violent reaction. To those who don’t threaten their power, they will be nice people. Abusiveness on various levels can become part of a culture of a ministry.
So-called Christian ministry driven by a lust for power, fame, money, success or anything else worldly is actually idolatry. Leaders can shift from good spiritual motivation to worldly motivation without realising it.
There is also the issue of presuppositions. All denominations read the same Bible, yet their members come to different conclusions from it – because they start with different assumptions. Usually one of those assumptions is that my denomination is right – or alternatively that the error is not important. A hunt is made for scriptures seeming to defend the denominational position and those against it are ignored. In the same way, most people in abusive ministries assume the leader is right. Thus any evidence showing the leader is wrong is ignored or trivialised. A hunt is made for evidence to discredit the objector and the evidence he presents is ignored.
Nevertheless, beyond this, there is a culture of denial. Ministries don’t want to admit they or their leaders have behavioural problems. It leads to fundamental painful questions. It is much easier to pretend nothing is wrong. In the same way most alcoholics refuse to admit they are alcoholics. The first step in coming right is to acknowledge they have a problem.
False accusations repeated often start to be believed. The abusive leaders are likely to have previously discussed the issue in the absence of the objector. Any number of stories or accusations or half-truths can be raised at such meetings without the objector having opportunity to know them or defend himself. The leaders want to believe these, because it is much easier than considering the possibility that their ministry is unethical/hypocritical etc.
Elitism in many ministries creates a spiritual blindness. Anyone below the level in the hierarchy is simply ignored or at best treated like a child. Their concerns are treated as personal worries rather than real problems with the ministry.
Such ministries develop a culture where leaders are obligated to defend each other rather than investigate the truth.
In most ministries, leaders use the senior leader as an ethical guideline, thus no one questions his behaviour. If invited to such an abusive interrogation, they just assume the procedure is acceptable and that the objector is a troublemaker needing to be ’sorted out’.
There is no moral feedback to the abusive leader, and he becomes more and more like a problem child who never matures due to lack of discipline.
As with abusive families, also, there is usually a culture of silence. The whole family knows, but they want the family to stick together and keep their social reputation – so they say nothing. Often the abused are financial dependent on the abuser. The same in ministries. Money is used as a tool to manipulate and control people. Anyone who breaks the ‘no talk’ rule, will in both abusive families and abusive ministries be usually accused of insanity.
As with abusive families, most abusive leaders have been mentored by another abusive leader – and thus think that the behaviour is ‘not so bad’ or even legitimate.
Similar tactics of trying to discredit a witness are commonly used in law courts – often successfully. Lawyers will interrogate a witness to try to get him to admit something that will discredit him. Nevertheless, in a law court, both parties have access to lawyers and the judge tries to be objective. In a church ‘kangaroo court’/’gang up’/’abusive interrogation’, there is no one being objective and no support for the objector.
If anyone thinks this is far fetched, look at the behaviour of the Pharisees and priests at the trial of Jesus – when he challenged and undermined their religious power.
Most people will not be brave enough to confront authorities that behave in the above manner – or even get near such a meeting. Thus any type of hypocrisy and abusiveness can flourish in the ministry.
The above techniques and many others have been well documented by those helping people from abusive ministries and I have seen variations on these techniques more than once first hand myself. The organisation ‘Rape Action’ has recommended that sexual accusations against people in ministry should be taken directly to the secular courts and not dealt with internally within ministries – citing the abuse and manipulation of church discipline. At the time, I argued against them. Unfortunately, I now think they have a point.
There are many other tools abusive leaders use to defend themselves against accountability, but the abusive interrogation is one of the most powerful. This practice needs to be attacked and stopped, because if is successfully stopped, then the entire abuse system of abusive ministries will collapse – rather like how the Soviet Union fell apart once they stopped the government killing people and exiling them to Siberia for speaking up.
ACTION
To try to prevent abusive interrogations and other abusive behaviour:
All ministries should have a policy to ban the practice of kangaroo courts/ abusive interrogations. There should be proper channels and procedures in every ministry for dealing with both discipline and grievances in a fair way. Try to create a culture of openness.
Any leaders who have been part of such practices should repent to their victims.
Ministries which have covered up sin in this way need to repent both of covering up sin and for the sin itself.
All Christians should be taught their rights and the proper discipline and grievance procedure to follow in terms of Matthew 18 and Acts 6.
Anyone who discovers they have been invited to a ministry ‘kangaroo court”/ ‘gang up’ or abusive interrogation should walk out immediately. There is no benefit in dialogue in such circumstances. Anything a person says may later be used against them. They should then re-convene the meeting at a later date with witnesses.
Christians should be taught to beware of abusive and unethical leaders and hold them accountable rather than blindly following authority.
Christian leaders should avoid symbols and behaviours of spiritual elitism, which make them unapproachable and thus their ministries unaccountable.
Leaders should withdraw support from other leaders who behave in an abusive manner.
If you are raising an objection to the ethical behaviour of your ministry, you must chose your witnesses from outside of the salaried employees of the ministries. Financially dependent people will almost always defend their employers (otherwise they lose their job stupid!). Preferably chose a witness from outside the ministry.
Anyone who has been a victim of spiritual abuse in the above or other ways or is otherwise interested in trying to combat it should contact me and I will email you some literature that will help you.
If you are a leader:
Consider whether you may have defensively used or participated in such methods in the past – possibly without realising it. If this is the case, you need to repent. You will not get away with it forever. Remember Jesus warnings of God’s judgement against abusive religious leaders (Matthew 23).
Examine your own heart, motivations and life to see whether you have developed the fear of man (Matthew 10:28), turning aside from your first love (Revelation 2:4) and the love of money (1 Timothy 6:11).
Missionaries going to communist countries or other hostile governments should practice the skills of combating abusive interrogation before leaving – as the techniques are the same.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Don’t let the article scare you from being bold and asking tough questions.
I just wanted you to be aware of their “game.” :)
Sorry that the paragraphs aren’t double spaced. When I copied and pasted it left out the spacing and my “edit” didn’t work.
January 10th, 2010 at 11:02 am
I would like to commend Todd (I believe that he is the pastor who has left Metro?) for standing for truth and doing what is right by resigning and leaving SGM altogether. I sincerely hope that you are reading this blog Todd because this message is for you. I highly respect you Todd as a strong man of God. You have demonstrated great integrity, courage, and boldness by your actions. I believe that you have sacrificed greatly to do the right thing and God will honor your decisions and your sacrifices. He has great blessings for you and your family!
How many pastors have stepped down quietly, actually lieing about their reasons for stepping down and then stayed within SGM? How many of these same men have been payed for their silence? Is it a one time pay off? Is it a retirement plan? What is the payoff for silence?
January 10th, 2010 at 11:05 am
Kindred,
Thank you so much for posting this!
My prayer is that the thoughtful reader will consider this article carefully. The kangaroo court may look a little different in your experience, but the effect is the same.
I would love to hear a report along these lines:
5 men get together and ask Danny if he will meet with them. They clearly articulate that they have some concerns that they would like to share, and some questions they would like to have answered. I would love to hear that they were heard, that they had their questions honestly and completely answered, their sin was not addressed, as the topic of the meeting was their concerns, not Danny’s, and that a follow up meeting was scheduled.
I’ve interacted with more die hard SGM defenders than I can count. I like the die hards. I was one, and I think that it’s good that someone loves their church and denomination.
I have never heard an account of any meeting with a SGM pastor in which the terms of the meeting were not dictated by the pastor. If he listened, it was because he chose to. Even in the case of “kinder/gentler” version of pastors who now listen without inserting your sin into the conversation, I have not heard one report of the pastor ending the meeting with, “this is so helpful. Would like to meet again in two weeks?”
……….
CJ was gracious to me when I submitted letters of concern to him, written by former members. In most cases, he acted very quickly, making multiple personal phone calls to those who submitted letters. His point man on resolving some of these issues has worked heroically, and one issue was completely resolved. Others are in process, and there are others that I don’t feel were given the attention they deserve.
What is disappointing to me is that I haven’t heard from CJ, asking if I’m aware of other situations that should be addressed. I am, and the first round of submitted letters were a test run. I’m waiting for him to initiate round two, and I’m honestly surprised that he hasn’t done so.
……….
SGM is such an emasculating environment, and I wonder if there are 5 men in MLC who will band together BECAUSE THEY LOVE THEIR CHURCH AND IT’S LEADERS, and try the scenario above (meeting with Danny).
I want to hear good reports. I want to publish good reports. I grew weary of sgm bashing long ago, and the primary reason this blog is still open is because I have hope for reform.
Please give me a reason to hold on to that hope.
January 10th, 2010 at 11:10 am
good Morning, just a quick note to say that i will be back to answer Jim’s question about where the Lord has us and to give some recommendations as a start to a search for a new fellowship if you are looking.
Flotsam and Jetsam, I couldn’t find you on Facebook, maybe you should try finding me. Short of that my contact info is with Jim and he has permission to give it to those who seek to communicate with my wife and myself, plus it would be great to catch up with one another. Off to celebrate what the Lord is doing in our lives.
In Christ alone!!!!
January 10th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Jim and all from or familiar with Metro,
I just had the chance to read through all of the above posts, and in light of all of the speculation and concern I do have one question. Not for argument or debate but rather simply as a practical matter. Have any of you contacted Todd?
Chuck
January 10th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
SOUNDS LIKE CHESAPEAKE ALL OVER WITH A TWIST: THE PASTOR DID LEAVE, AND BEFORE SUBJECTING HIMSELF TO THE SGM INQUISITION
Bravo to Todd for refusing to sit under abusive leadership and be corrected by men who themselves expend power with no accountability. It breaks my heart considering how many fine men left their positions within Sovereign Grace Churches and the Ministry (clearly a high enough number to place Sovereign Grace Ministry on the extreme toxicity list), their tails between their legs, emasculated, broken, and in shame, under mantras such as possessing an unteachable spirit, lacking the calling of a pastor, growing calls for the ministry, and of course, God has clearly called someone else for that position. I concur with FRED and have to ponder as well, the unusual nature of how almost all of these men keep quiet about their TERMINATIONS and FIRINGS, and STAY IN THE CHURCH, treated as PARIAHS. These are men who apparently lack fortitude, (and I believe that this may well be a tactic of SGM as these men are wooed into their positions–to strip them of their fortitude and replace it with an allegiance to the Ministry) and even those who are close to them know this, yet they still stay. One really must consider what this ministry has over them. SEVERANCE? or SILENCE FOR SEVERANCE? Not unusual in the Secular Corporate World. Case in Point:
(June 22, 2008 New York Times article): ”At least 19 employees who have resigned in recent years from the New York Power Authority, the sprawling and politically powerful state-owned utility, were required to keep secret the circumstances of their departures in order to obtain severance pay or benefits, according to a review by The New York Times.
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The nondisclosure provisions — which are highly unusual for public entities like state agencies and authorities — bar the former employees from speaking about the circumstances of their departure or even disclosing the existence of the agreements.”
Could this be the reason?
Blessings to Todd for not bowing to the King!! May our Lord bless his household two-fold for all he might lose for his decision!
January 10th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Chuck,
I’ve spoken with people who have contacted Todd. I haven’t commented on Todd, and have no reason to contact him.
I know you see this thread (and probably the whole blog) as a sinful speculationfest, but you should know that people are intentionally being discreet.
Given your last comment (which somehow never saw the light of day), I’m surprised to see you here. Your decision to no longer pollute your soul with the vile contents of this site lasted less than two weeks.
I can recommend a support group or accountability software if you like.
January 10th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Chuck,
If I do contact Todd it will not be to try to get some information about what went down. Instead I will tell him how much I appreciate the way he served and to wish him well. Todd just made a major decision to resign his position of 7 years and walk away from relationships. He doesn’t owe me an explanation of why he resigned. Leadership owes me an explanation of what happened to caused Todd to want to resign.
January 10th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Fred said: “I would like to commend Todd (I believe that he is the pastor who has left Metro?) for standing for truth and doing what is right by resigning and leaving SGM altogether. I sincerely hope that you are reading this blog Todd because this message is for you. I highly respect you Todd as a strong man of God. You have demonstrated great integrity, courage, and boldness by your actions. I believe that you have sacrificed greatly to do the right thing and God will honor your decisions and your sacrifices. He has great blessings for you and your family!” {end quote}
I agree with Fred, I wish more of the leaders had the same integrity and I, too, believe that God will honor and bless Todd for standing for the truth.
January 10th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Accountability software? Please, don’t give them any ideas!
Jim, I think you should still have hope for reform. Just the fact that a pastor left of his own accord instead of submitting to the “emasculation” of his life and ministry is a great sign. I don’t know Todd, but the Lord evidentally spoke to his heart. He made a tough decision. There have to be others in sgm with the same integrity. This may be part of an implosion happening that will lead to truth and reform.
Please don’t forget the good you and Carole have done by keeping this blog up, the many people who have been helped to see that they are not alone. Those in Metro Life who are confused and hurting have a place to come to get support and understanding. That is a valuable thing!
January 10th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
I’
d like to ask you all to also consider the possibility that not much specifically “happened” on Sunday, and that Todd’s resignation is the result of a longer process. To those who have been at metro and left (and left SGM), Todd was often the last pastor who talked to them. He was, in many ways, the one pastor that did not quite “fit”, but he added so many valuable aspects to the church’s ministry that people just saw him as a very fitting part of the team. For many of us it took a few years that our own growing feelings of “not fitting in” actually began to take on a dimension that was more than the discomfort you sometimes feel in a “strange church”. We discovered how much of our own identity and integrity was at stake. And we ran.
Why should Todd not have done the same. And if that is so, I don’t see the leadership of metro equipped and, quite frankly, smart enough to understand such a process. To them, SGM is the world. To Todd, the world was “real people” and perhaps never SGM. Now it’s just official.
Metronians: the likes of Todd are going. Coming in are two young PC grads, ever smiling, trained by book to counsel and lead, and, of course, relatives of men who are already pastors. Just compare. And then decide where are you going?
January 10th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
FYI, one of the new interns, Aaron, is not a relative of any SGM pastor, nor was he raised in SGM. He’s got a good head on his shoulders for one so young, and he’s tender to the leading of the Holy Spirit. He listens intently and listens long. He handles stressful situations with grace. And from what I hear, he’s always had a huge amount of respect for Todd. He’s a keeper!
January 10th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
MetroStill: Brother-in-Law of a Pastor at the West Orlando Church, the family has deep roots in Metro. Many pastors in SGM have a good head on their shoulders and smile a lot, that’s a good thing. The downside is that all that’s in that head theologically and pastorally comes from 1 year in an obscure Pastor’s College and a limited range of popular theological reading. But that is not the topic here.
January 10th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Jim,
No, just observing quietly. As I said, my question was not meant to be fodder for debate but was meant to be practical. You were the one who told me that we should talk with those who have left before drawing our own conclusions about any of these things.
Chuck
January 10th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
I must admit that I am still totally and completely shocked that so many of these men who were fired from their pastoral positions would lie and hide the truth from their churches and even their friends. One of the most recent that I know about is CD who left Denver. Also, the “timeline” that was given last Spring in Chesapeake by the pastors was at the very least, suspicious. These are not bad or evil men and I think that is part of the sadness in this whole situation. They are so deceived by those above them. My guess is that they are told that the people must not know the truth “for the good of the church”. “All for the good of the church!” There has to be something very powerful to keep these men quiet, silent and loyal to the movement.
Jim, I must disagree with you which is a first, I believe?? I do not believe that this blog is SGM bashing. I believe, as I always have, that the purpose of this blog is based on Ephesians 5:11: “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” If I didn’t believe this, I would never have written even one word on this blog. I know that many have come here and received healing and I am thankful for that. But truly, I believe that the #1 purpose of the blog is Ephesians 5:11. How many people have been protected from wrong doctrine, abuse, control, slavery, etc because of this blog? How many people have been rescued from the tyranny of SGM because they read this blog and survivors and their eyes were open to all the wrongs? How many have left SGM over the past 1 1/2 years because of these blogs? How many have never stepped foot in a SGM church because they have read these posts? We will never know the answers to these questions but God knows. He loves and cares for His children. God said enough and the result is that many have been set free and delivered from this institution called SGM. So I for one say thank you Jim and Carole for all your diligence, perseverance and obedience to God. You have and are doing a good work.
I would also like to add that I have hope that EH in Chesapeake is a man of integrity (like Todd who resigned from Metro) who truly loves Jesus Christ over and above SGM. I truly pray that his worship and allegience is to Jesus and Jesus alone and that his desire is to serve Jesus and Jesus’ sheep first and foremost! I believe that he is a man who truly loves the people. Please pray for him because of all who would try to keep him bound to SGM.
““““““
January 10th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
A minor thought….
25 years ago husband and I were in a church that we had to leave. The problems were severe, and about four years later an immoral lying pastor was exposed and left, and some of his enabling elders were also exposed. Probably fifty familes left before and after us.
My husband was in leadership and the big struggle was that God rebukes sheep who “muddy the water”. Ezekiel 34:17-19
Ezekiel 34:17-19 (New International Version)
17 ” ‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
We had heard this verse so many times that we were petrified to muddy the waters for the people left behind. We were not sure if we would be believed anyway. Then there was that verse about David not wanting to cut off piece of Saul’s garment and touch the Lord’s anointed leader, bad as Saul was. Yeah we knew the leader was a Saul, but we were afraid to say anything. And gossip is the worst sin possible of course.
25 years later, when a conflict arises where I know the facts, I am a whole lot quicker to think of vulnerable sheep, and to comfort the hurting by telling them the facts, and to know that I am not gossiping but setting a victim free from oppression. And I no longer worry about hurting God’s glory by saying something negative about His church, because I know that the sheep who just got trampled on and is out there alone from the 99 others is every bit a part of the church too. But that is something it can take years to grasp. And in the meantime you just can’t say a word, you are too afraid to.
So give guys like Todd and any other silent underlings a big break. They might not be trying to hold onto money and jobs or wanting to hide anything. They might be sincerely afraid to muddy the waters or cut Saul’s robe or gossip. I think we should believe the best of those under authority who are currently silent. Been there, done that. Give them years to realize that it is more important to speak and protect sheep than to be silent to protect abusive leaders. It takes years to wake up….took me many long years.
January 10th, 2010 at 9:30 pm
Sigelman 4:23pm: Great post. I can identify.
Thanks.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
Metro Lurker,
if you want to get in touch, ask Jim for my e-mail. I’m out for good, you have no publicity to fear.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Jim,
Can you send me Sigelman’s email address? I’d like to connect with him.
Many thanks!
January 10th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Making no assumptions. Just asking questions.
January 11th, 2010 at 3:57 am
It’s interesting that this policy of secrecy has continued down through the years. Fear, fear, fear. Truth can always stand up to examination. Why not just be forthcoming, honest, and truthful about the facts of whatever happened in every situation, every church? Loyal members are so forgiving — most church members want to hang in there and do everything they can to help fix problems – but how can you work things out if you don’t know what things need working out? Discretion is one thing — secrecy is another. Secrecy in the guise of preventing gossip is crazy. Truth isn’t gossip. And most Christians are good at using discretion. If these congregations have been preached the Word for all these years, why are they not trusted to be discreet in handling the truth of what goes on in the church? If the gates of hell won’t prevail against the church, why all the worry that if folks find out the truth, the church will suffer?
It just occurred to me, that in soooo many situations where “Family Meetings” have been held, people have been hurt, problems have exploded, that they’re a day late and a dollar short in bringing things to the membership. Why didn’t these things come to light much sooner, when they might have been worked out within a loving, committed congregation?
And again, it’s clear to me that this is a top-down problem. Why is such secrecy allowed and encouraged by the Main Man of this bunch? Why is there an all-powerful Main Man anyway?
I do know, that years ago, the SGM church we went to was honest with the congregation with some huge problems — but all but one of those problems involved member sin, not leader sin. We admired the way they tried to handle those extremely difficult issues. But somewhere along the way, things changed, and now, it’s a cloak-and-dagger world, folks.
I’m with Jim — still hoping and praying for reform. Maybe Todd will post 95 theses on his way out the door, and rekindle the fire of God’s love, grace, and mercy in SGM.
January 11th, 2010 at 7:48 am
“When you see people in a religious system being secretive – watch out. People don’t hide what is appropriate, they hide what is in inappropriate.
One reason spiritually abusive families and churches are secretive is because they are so image conscious. People in these systems can’t even live up to their own performance standards, so they have to hide what is real.
…
Another reason for secrecy in a church is that the leadership has a condescending, negative view of the laity. This results in conspiracies on the leadership level. They tell themselves, ‘People are not mature enough to handle truth.’”
From: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen
January 11th, 2010 at 7:53 am
The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is what we have already termed the ‘can’t-talk’ rule. ‘The ‘can’t-talk’ has this thinking behind it: ‘The real problem cannot be exposed because then it would have to be dealt with and things would have to changel; so it must be protected behind walls of silence (neglect) or by assault (legalistic attack). If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated.
From: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen
January 11th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Can I be the first to state the obvious?
The problems at MLC are a direct result of SGMs polity. If the congregation had an authoritative voice, this issue would have been settled months ago.
Now that the leaders of MLC have proven that they can’t resolve their own issues, SGM Inc will help them decide who will lead your church.
While I believe that your input will now be invited and considered, they will decide for you what is best for you.
When will the membership of sgm churches tire of being treated like children? When will they tire of being spoon fed sanitized information? When will they demand a full disclosure and demand an authoritative voice?
SGM, give the members of MLC all relevant information, and let them choose their own leadership. They are adults.
January 11th, 2010 at 10:42 am
Seems to me, if I recall correctly, that the folks at the Chesapeake church tried to have an input concerning who would pastor their church. That didn’t turn out very well for those folks calling for a change but it did ultimately result in pastoral reassignments and a dismissal (even though the reasons stated by SGM for these changes were dubious at best).
Is it worth the sacrifice of personal reputation to affect change of leadership in an SGM church?
What level of discontent within the congregation will cause action by SGM?
What is the best way to get the attention of SGM……financial withholding, legal action…. other?
So many questions,…..so little time.
N.S.L.B.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Dr Phil has always said that people who have nothing to hide…. hide nothing.
January 11th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Well said, Square Peg.
I’m a reasonable person. If Metro’s leadership would have held a family meeting a year or more ago when issues that led to Todd’s decision to resign were occurring I wouldn’t have any issues. I WANT to see the local church healthy.
Metro can’t undo its bad decisions made in the past, but last Wednesday night it had an opportunity to fully disclose the nature of the issues and either the Metro leadership chose not to or were advised not to by SGM leadership.
We’ve all sinned and fallen short of God’s perfect standard. The leadership needs to humble themselves and own their part in Todd’s resignation. We’ll understand and forgive. Changes would certainly need to be made to help keep situations from getting to this point.
Oh, and MetroStill. Regarding Aaron, he is new to leadership. I hope he status because he has proven to be quite an asset already to Metro, but I’m sure Metro probably thought that Todd was a “keeper” and look what happened. Anyone pushed far enough will move on.
January 11th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
How terribly sad. I read all the comments and have flashbacks to the time that led up to my family leaving SGM after over a dozen years.
Your efforts to get “answers” will be met with basically, as Happymom put it: nothing!
But, I did have “success.” I had success by pushing and pushing. I waited a couple months and then I started knocking on Benny’s door to get answers to my questions about what I experienced at Denver. FINALLY, 5 months after Keith “stepped down,” I got 45 minutes on the phone with Benny. And what he told me was shocking. But, I’m glad to have had the conversation with him. I got more clarity than I ever did from Shank in all my efforts for some TRUTH from that man. I am getting my “story” together and will share it on one of the blogs soon hopefully. But, since I am still very close with some of the parties involved, I want to be very careful.
All that to say….my only success was talking with someone who was removed enough from the situation. I’d say that, if Benny weren’t the exec pastor at Metro Life, he might talk…in several months, if you have a way to threaten meeting with CJ and/or Josh. But, I don’t think Bob K and Dave H will be much help to you. The other pastors who remain at the church…nah…they won’t talk.
Sadly, part of leaving SGM is like putting pieces of a complicated puzzle together without the box top to help you. You will find yourself redefining your faith over and over and what you find on the other side is not a pretty thing.
The pretty part of it is that Jesus is OFF the cross! That Jesus was victorious to forgive your sins. That you no longer have to live in guilt and condemnation and self-deprecating. That you can be FREE to accept what Jesus did and no longer have to beat yourself and wail over still needing it. Because you HAVE it already!
Aside from that….the entire “christian walk” needs a new definition and that’s a long, long road…at least it has been for me….
Your sister in Christ,
Sid
January 11th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
The pretty part of it is that Jesus is OFF the cross! That Jesus was victorious to forgive your sins. That you no longer have to live in guilt and condemnation and self-deprecating. That you can be FREE to accept what Jesus did and no longer have to beat yourself and wail over still needing it. Because you HAVE it already!
Way to say it, Sidney! When I finally figured this out, I was set free. Then I found how simple it really is to walk with Jesus – Love God, love your neighbor, take care of the poor…why did it all get so complicated back in the controlling church?
It is when we see the risen Christ that we begin to walk as the Body. Not to minimize its meaning, but Jesus didn’t stay at the cross. Neither should His followers!
January 11th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
Canary said, “ …Love God, love your neighbor, take care of the poor…why did it all get so complicated back in the controlling church?”
Sadly, it got this way because they have forgotten FINISHED work of Jesus, and therefore believe it’s up to puffed-up leaders to spend hours and hours pointing out people’s sins, bringing them observations and corrections. The focus is no longer on the finished work of Jesus, but on the shortcomings of the “laity.” So no wonder there’s no time to help the poor, reach out to unbelievers, pray for for missionaries, or take an interest in cross-cultural missions. All the energy is expended on glitz for the public eye and making people clean up what some false “leader” perceives as sin.
Leaders — yes, we need great leaders. But the huge clergy/laity division that has developed within SGM combined with papal polity and a focus that re-nails Jesus to the crucifix makes SGM an offshoot of catholicism.
January 11th, 2010 at 7:09 pm
HOLY SMOKE AND MIRRORS BATMAN !!! I am sooooooooooooo glad I left Metro 12 years ago when I did- ( with my entire family in tact, I might add -now a total of 11 of us)- I really pray that others will have their blindfolds removed at Metro and branch out to another local church where they can grow and be used by GOD – NOT man- I soooooooo can relate to so many of the posts I have been reading both old and brand new- My question is – we left 12 years ago when this was happening, how on earth has it continued !??! I have talked with friends from Metro over the years , and have heard many , many stories of blatant disrespect and arrogance coming from the “lack of leadership” on the CEO,CFO,COO and so on – it’s about time more Metronians said “CULTR” !!! I am Glad the “blinders” are off !!
January 11th, 2010 at 7:50 pm
In answer to Quizzler’s question, “Is it worth the sacrifice of personal reputation to affect change of leadership in an SGM church?”
Yes, Quizzler, it is worth it! It is worth it because obeying God is worth everything. It is worth it because of truth, because of Jesus! We are to lay our lives down for Jesus Christ and sacrificing our reputations is nothing compared to what Jesus did for us! He was crucified – nails driven into His hands and feet, a crown of thorns pushed into His head, a sword slashing into His body, total rejection, total humiliation, all because He loved us so.
It is worth it if one person, man or woman, adult or child is protected and no longer abused. It is worth it if one person is awakened to the truth about SGM and leaves to find freedom in Christ.
Is it hard to have your personal reputation smeared and your name slandered by the very leaders, pastors, and friends that you loved? Is it hard losing people that you loved, that you thought loved you, that you thought you were building life long friendships with? You betcha! Is it worth it? Absolutely!
January 11th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Preach it Square Peg!
January 12th, 2010 at 1:35 am
Walking in Freedom,
You are right. It is absolutely worth loosing reputations, friends, and the sense of belonging, painful though it is. We have to run (not walk) to the nearest exit of a legalistic, elitist church, trusting the Lord to guide us into new life somewhere else. It took my family quite a few years to heal from our sgm exodus, and the deep sense of loss, but oh boy, was it worth it. My freedom in Christ is something I will never willingly relinquish again!
January 12th, 2010 at 10:16 am
“All that to say….my only success was talking with someone who was removed enough from the situation. I’d say that, if Benny weren’t the exec pastor at Metro Life, he might talk…in several months, if you have a way to threaten meeting with CJ and/or Josh. But, I don’t think Bob K and Dave H will be much help to you. The other pastors who remain at the church…nah…they won’t talk.” – Sydney
“Metro can’t undo its bad decisions made in the past, but last Wednesday night it had an opportunity to fully disclose the nature of the issues and either the Metro leadership chose not to or were advised not to by SGM leadership.” – Metro Lurker
Etc etc…I just wanted to pop by and say to all who are concerned about secrecy and covering up and leadership not trusting the laity etc, that the pastors at Metro have communicated publicly regarding this issue that they are open to anyone and everyone to give them a call with questions about what is going on. They could not get to all the details in one meeting, and really were, and still are, sorting out the details for themselves…but before you continue to talk about secretive they are being, why not give them a call, or send them an email? Just in the past week I have witnessed Dad (Benny) engaged in many conversations with individuals about the issue. They have specifically asked for it, said they welcomed it, and are spending quite a bit of time trying to answer questions from folks. It would have been impossible to get to everything, and answer every question in one meeting, they knew that and so they said they knew there was going to be questions, so ask. (I’m reasonably sure you won’t walk away thinking you were spoon fed sanitized info.)
If you are not a member of Metro you might have to wait in line for a little while, and then explain why you are asking..but if you have a legitimate reason and are willing to wait a bit, I know Dad would love to talk to you too.
Anyways, I thought the fact that they did everything they could to encourage folks to seek them out should be mentioned. I can’t stick around to answer questions myself, and it isn’t necessary anyway, since the pastors will be able to answer better and have made it clear they are available to respond anyway. And if you don’t want to ask the pastors questions then you can no longer present a very good argument that they are the ones not willing to work through these things.
Peace
January 12th, 2010 at 11:09 am
I agree with Joey that people should ask questions.
I also think that the pastors probably have a pretty good handle on what the questions are.
Why not have a family meeting and say, “we’ve received a number of questions. Here are the answers. Is there anything else you’d like us to address?”
Open the mic. Let the members speak.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:12 am
The “go find out yourselves” comment is a common on here Joey, we’ve heard it before. Some of us also know that waiting time for a meeting with a pastor often takes weeks at Metro…
re. they were not able to communicate all in ONE meeting: well, if there is so much stuff going on that a conversation can’t be started in 3 hours or so, the pastors better go on a retreat for a weekend… and then come up with something better than terms like “lavish outpouring of grace” and “we need a move of the Holy Spirit” to approach members.
Most importantly, though: the burden is NOT on members who are to humbly seek for an appointment to learn what is going on in THEIR own body of believers. Are the pastors and they in this together or not? Or is the congregation only a cheerleading crowd that’s just supposed to listen and then weigh the pros and cons of staying? It’s not that your counsel to “go ask them” is bad in and of itself. It’s just that it is entirely inappropriate in a church setting and reveals a view of sheep and shepherds that is just plain bad. That’s all.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:13 am
Joey said, “Etc etc…I just wanted to pop by and say to all who are concerned about secrecy and covering up and leadership not trusting the laity etc, that the pastors at Metro have communicated publicly regarding this issue that they are open to anyone and everyone to give them a call with questions about what is going on. They could not get to all the details in one meeting, and really were, and still are,”
This is the pattern that has been repeated within SGM churches when there is a problem within the leadership. Details are not given in a “family meeting” but you are welcome to seek the pastors out and they will answer your questions. Again, this is control and manipulation. YOU must seek them out. YOU must ask the questions. They are not forthright and honest concerning what has happened. The whole membership has a right to know what is going on! The membership should not have to seek the pastors out and ask the questions. The pastors should be upfront and honest themselves in front of the membership. This is exactly what happened in Chesapeake. No questions were allowed during either the private meeting in Dec. 2008 or the family meeting in Jan. 2009 but the people were told that the pastors would gladly answer questions if they, the people came to them.
Sorry Joey. I know that you mean well and that you truly believe what you have said but once again, SGM is hiding and covering up. History speaks for itself.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Jim has an excellent common sense idea with his 11:09 posting, Joey! Think of how much time this would save the pastors! I can’t think that it would be too time efficient for the pastors to meet individually with people to answer the same questions over and over. Just have one or two more meetings and just get all the questions over and done with and free up the pastors’ schedules.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:39 am
So I guess the question begs to be asked:
Why would the pastors want to potentially meet one-on-one with hundreds of people rather than dump it all out in a members meeting or a group of members meetings? It makes no sense – right?
Could it be that if they meet one-on-one it is very effective to re-direct any problems at the person asking the questions or to point to their sin or ask about their commitment to the local church?
Could it be that just the fear of having the question re-directed to point to the questioner’s sin will be enough to suppress most of people from asking the pastors?
January 12th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Excellent comments, Joey. Thank you.
Greetings,
I am well aware of the sorrow and pain that occurs whenever someone I know leaves my church, who ever they may be and for whatever reason. I am sorry for the difficult time MLC is experiencing. I pray for Spirit-filled grace at MLC and that the departing pastor will quickly find a new church home.
I have attended many meetings where serious issues are being addressed, including changes in leadership. I know those thoughts – hey, why was I not consulted on this issue? What are all the details? Why is this happening? Nobody asked me about this. This is not what I would have done. I have a better idea…..
Just as Joey has stated, I know I can go to my pastor, express my concerns, and get answers. I have done this many times. I don’t know about your pastors, but the ones I know are personable, reasonable, thoughtful men of God whom I enjoy talking to. But I don’t worship these men. I do not blindly follow their every command. They do not micro-manage my life. They have no desire to do so. It is a real relationship with someone who deeply cares for me and the rest of CLC.
If any of these pastors were to step down, for whatever reason, this would be upsetting. But my walk with Jesus does not change. My responsibility to obey God’s word does not change. The ministry I am involved in does not change. My friends will not change, hopefully, and I will continue to reach out to new folks. I will still sit in the same seat as every Sunday, I will continue to wear my blue or tan pants, etc, etc…….
I don’t need all the answers to the issues that arise. The men who truly lead my church spend hours every week as a team, deciding what is best for CLC. It would be childish of me to demand details and answers and my way – or else. It is my responsibility as an adult to focus on what God has for me to do in my own areas of responsibility and not interfere in areas that are not my responsibility.
Thank you for your time……..In His grace, 30
January 12th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
This is off topic, but I wanted to briefly address a comment above:
“I concur with FRED and have to ponder as well, the unusual nature of how almost all of these men keep quiet about their TERMINATIONS and FIRINGS, and STAY IN THE CHURCH, treated as PARIAHS. These are men who apparently lack fortitude…”
I disagree that they lack fortitude. Perhaps they’re just ready to move on and unplug from all of that stuff. Perhaps they care about some of the people they left behind who could be hurt by a tell-all. I KNOW of one such example. I suspect many of these guys just want to put their lives and families back together again and move on without pulling the scab off of an open wound that hasn’t healed yet.
January 12th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Jim let know he was going to respond so this is (for real this time I promise) my last comment.
Jim, they have done that in the past (not with this issue of course because this is the first resignation in the history of the church) and I’m sure would be open to doing it again if necessary. I think the range of questions involved would still, even after a meeting like that, necessitate some folks going them individually.
As far as the time issue…that comment was for non members who had questions. I certainly didn’t want to make it sound like it would take very much time for a member with questions to get in touch with a pastor. Plenty have, just show up to any church event and find a pastor and talk to him…its not super difficult. If you call in you may or may not get them right then depending on if they are in meetings or whatever…but it will be easy. Getting a meeting might take a little longer, but not weeks (unless you have a specific pastor you want to meet with and he is away, or has been away and is catching up.) The only reason it may take a little longer for a nonmember is due to the pastor’s priority being to his own church.
As far as the maniulation and treating laity like children and all that, I say again, if you don’t want answers and just want to assume your assesment of this situation is correct, then there is nothing more to say. If you are concerned with finding the truth, then ask. If the answer is evasive and a non answer and you still believe they are not being honest, then you can argue they are manipulating or whatever. Even in the case of a churchwide quesion-answer session that would be the case. If their intent is to avoid the truth it would be even easier to do in that setting where you can just come up with predetermined answers to all the likely questions and present a united front for one night and be done with it. Its about where their hearts are at, not their method…any method could be used to do what you guys think they are doing, and any method could be used in an honest helpful way.
January 12th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Joey,
I think we all know that Todd’s resignation is not the only issue on the table.
January 12th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Greetings Everyone!!
This is going to be a response to Jim’s earlier post on the 9th. it follows:
John Galt,
Without getting too specific (unless you want to), I think that there are many current Metro members who would love to hear more about your experience at your new church.
I just have a feeling
In a word it has been an excellant experience. some contrasts. the pastors are available!!! You don’t have to set an appointment out three months in advance. We have already been in one pastors home for dessert and another has been over to the house for lunch. Both instances involved getting to know one another better and to answer questions. It is the answer to questions that has been amazing. For instance: In response to a question about the role of the pastor in the church the answer was, you are adults and you are believers, it is not our job to tell you what your calling or ministry is to be, that is between you and God, our job is to make sure you are equipped and supported for the work you are called to do. There is no membership, if you believe God has called you to this fellowship let one of the pastors know. This was a followup: don’t you need to know who is a member? Response; the Body of Christ is organic living being, we minister to one another, membership is not a condition of being able to minister or to be ministered to. We asked if there were small groups. yes, there are several. Some meet year round some are in existance for six to eight weeks for a particular study or purpose. it is not a requirement to be in a small group, it does help in getting to know people and have fellowship, but isn’t mandatory ’cause those aspects can happen through other means. Also, if your schedule doesn’t allow for you to make it to any of the studies going on here and you know of one taking place at another Bible believing church then attend that Bible study. It is not important where you are studying the Word as long as you are and more importantly becoming more like Christ in the process. ……..Just so you know this is one of the major differences we have discovered since leaving Metro/SGM the emphasis is on Becoming like Christ NOT dwelling on our sin nature. Also in the service the pastor speaks for about 20-25 minutes maybe 30 at the most. What i like about the sermons is they are more like talks as opposed to a college level theology class. yet, these men have more education and say more in less time in a way that is easy to understand and will help you grow. One example that almost made me laugh out loud one Sunday morning , the Pastor was teaching on the Virgin birth of jesus. he stopped and said, do we really undersstand how it happened, no, you could go read a lot of different scholars on the subject, it really won’t help you, all you need to know is that is happened!!!! Wow, really!!! wonderful.
The other thing is if we want to host a group or a prayer meeting or a Bible study we can. We don’t need their permission or years of leadership training or the approval of several different men to do what God is calling us to do. It is so refreshing to be walking among adults who trust God to build his church!! Oh yeah, BTW, since we have been there, no talk of the denomination we are a part of. All the talk is about evangelism and misionary work and supporting others including those who are not necessarily part of the local fellowship. As the pastor said at the dessert. As long as you are a Bible believing, Christ centered church we can work together for the common goal of building the Kingdom. No franchise operation here!!! I could go on and on and on, but i think you get the point. It is about your freedom in Christ and building His kingdom and we absolutely love what God is doing in us and in the people there. I guess i should mention that the people have a lot of joy. We were overwhelmed at first. We realized that it has alot to do with what is emphasised and the fact that prayer is actually important part of church life. Be warned: there is a basketball net in the parking lot that is somewhat of dis array!!! You are warned. Though since I’ve been there not one conversation about sports, movies or tv shows, not that those things are wrong. It is just not what anyone seems to be talking about. That may change as relationships deepen, but right now it is very refreshing.
Sigelman, Metro Lurker and Dorothy we would love to communicate directly. Jim has our contact info. I am already in communication with Metro Still. Love you guys and one thing i know for sure, God has a plan. Whether you stay or whether you go from Metro/SGM put your trust in Christ not in men. They will let you down. Christ will not.
BTW, the fellowship we ended up at isn’t the only great fellowship we visited. There were others, but the atmosphere and emphasis was the same, style of worship different but the same Holy Spirit present!!!! In Christ Alone!!!!!
January 12th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Jim,
So you agree with Joey or disagree? It seems to me that you must agree. The more issues there are, the more questions (all unique to the individual) people are going to have (with the requisite follow ups), the more impossible it’s going to be to address things in family meeting, the more right Joey is that you should just talk to the pastors individually.
January 12th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
It just seems unthinkable to me that many other churches would so turn the tables on the membership, only give them tidbits of info smothered in nice-sounding phrases at the “family meeting” and then demand that some parts (no way they could meet al the members of Metro!) of the family come to them. The logic is just downright weird for a Protestant and evangelical church. Any puppy-training club has a more transparent understanding of leadership!
January 12th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Hi Lawrence,
Most people will have the same exact questions. Very few will be unique to any one individual. When President Obama holds a press conference, the reporters all ask questions that everyone wants the answers to. So having a open air, open mike meeting will answer the vast majority of everyone’s qustions. If need be, have a second or third follow up meeting. This still would take much less time than meeting with each member individually.
Varied and very detailed explanations will eliminate the need for a lot of individual questions and follow ups. The more information the better. For example, I was at PDI/SGM when Larry Tomzcak left. Since that time, I have asked why CJ and Larry Tomczak have never reconciled or teamed back up together. I have never gotten an answer from anyone. I have sent e-mails, made phone calls, never to get a single response from anyone at SGM. See if you can get an answer to that question, and then get back to me.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Lawrence, your statement “It seems to me that you must agree” seems to be a logical fallacy, maybe “begging the question.” I wouldn’t be telling Jim that he must agree.
As for the questions, I vote for a much more informative family meeting. THEN if people have more questions, they can call/e-mail/meet a pastor individually.
I love the people of Metro Life and want to see my whole church — including my pastors and their families – healed and strengthened. (That means you, too, brother. I’ve watched you grow up and I know you’re a decent guy.) But I must say I am very disillusioned with Metro Life and especially SGM (with its abysmal track record of fixing church problems!) , and have been for quite some time, not just since Wednesday and not just since I started reading the Refuge blog. We need to do what is right for our own family, and if that means moving on, we reluctantly will. I did not appreciate Dave Harvey’s constant urging to “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” when he should have been encouraging us to seek God and see what HE has in store for us, even if it means, like Todd, leaving a local church that happens to be rather unglorious right now. We’ll see how it goes.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Lawrence,
I agree with Joey that people should ask questions.
I agree with myself and others that the pastors should do a public “data dump” that will answer most of those questions.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
Inquiring Mind said:
January 12th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
This is off topic, but I wanted to briefly address a comment above:
“I concur with FRED and have to ponder as well, the unusual nature of how almost all of these men keep quiet about their TERMINATIONS and FIRINGS, and STAY IN THE CHURCH, treated as PARIAHS. These are men who apparently lack fortitude…”
I disagree that they lack fortitude. Perhaps they’re just ready to move on and unplug from all of that stuff. Perhaps they care about some of the people they left behind who could be hurt by a tell-all. I KNOW of one such example. I suspect many of these guys just want to put their lives and families back together again and move on without pulling the scab off of an open wound that hasn’t healed yet.”
Inquiring Mind, it seems that many if not most of the pastors that have been fired, terminated, let go, etc. stay in their local SGM church as a church member. Todd at Metro seems to be the exception from what I have observed.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
MetroStill,
You mentioned Dave Harvey’s constant urging to “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church”. His phrase is poetic and inspiring, but also is a definite SGM-ism. I choose to take it to mean that we should do all in our power to see GOD’S cause furthered in the church. In part that does mean purification, which can be painful, and might include opposing the strategies that have a known historical track record of failure.
Of course, “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” might be interpreted as an SGM-ism to mean that MLC members need to put loyalty to SGM above personal views and be quiet in the interest of “peace”. Without hearing the context, I am guessing this second alternative is the author’s intended meaning.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
I just wanted to add that I personally don’t remember hearing that Todd was for sure leaving SGM. I THOUGHT I heard that it is something he was considering doing but wasn’t yet for sure. That may have changed and I never heard the news.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Someone asked Todd is he was leaving SGM, and he gave a sort of “one step at a time” answer. If he has made that decision, or if he hasn’t, I don’t think he’s addressing the issue in personal conversations at this time.
Everyone-I’m very sorry that so many comments are going into moderation. I’ll be stuck at my desk all day, and will clear them quickly. I’m not placing anyone in moderation, the blog software is.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
To Confused Metroite,
Todd has already submitted his letter of resignation and he is leaving for sure.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
MetroStill,
Sorry. I wasn’t meaning to beg the question, except of myself
. I agree with everything you said, except for the criticism of Dave Harvey (since he, of course, is above criticism) ((I’m kidding, btw)) I agree that everyone should “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” whatever their church may be. I think that’s pretty clear in scripture. Mr. Harvey was also very clear that Todd is the man and we love him b/c foundationally, allegiance to the gospel is all that matters, not selection of any particular church. Thanks for your kind words. I’m sure you’re the man too, even if I don’t know who you are 
.
Dennis!! I miss our debates lol. Yet again, I 1000% disagree with you (would it be normal if we didn’t
Of all the different people I’ve talked with, none of us think the same things, are concerned about the same things, or would ask the same questions. Being a good charismatic, I can only go by what I’ve expierianced 
.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
Dennis, Todd has definitely resigned from Metro Life but as of Wednesday was praying about his future involvement in SGM. He resigned just days before an SGM assessment team was scheduled to start evaluating leadeship. Make of it what you will.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Dennis… I *think* he has only resigned from Metro… not SGM.
To all of the Metro folks: My heart goes out to you as you traverse this upheaval in your church. Many are praying for you, for wisdom and peace… and much, much grace.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Hi Carole,
The current information from someone very close to Todd, as he best understands it at this time, is that Todd is leaving SGM completely. He is not going to another SGM church when he relocates. If that information changes or is inaccurate, I will keep you updated.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
SGMsingle,
“Of course, “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” might be interpreted as an SGM-ism to mean that MLC members need to put loyalty to SGM above personal views and be quiet in the interest of “peace”. Without hearing the context, I am guessing this second alternative is the author’s intended meaning.”
I already mentioned it in passing, but I wanted to make sure I was clear…I know you’re not saying this maliciously, but only in ignorance, since you don’t, you know, actually know what it is your talking about, but one of Dave Harvey’s six major points was that we are “wasting our departures” if we think that leaving Metro Life, or Sovereign Grace, or any church, is the important thing. Or if we think that Todd, or anyone else, is missing God’s will if they leave a certain church or movement. He was 100% clear on that. People should go where the feel led by God to go, and if that means leaving Metro then God bless them. If someone holds theological or relational differences than the church they attend, and they feel like those differences do not allow them in good conscience to take part in that church or movement, then obviously they go to whatever church or movement they feel the Holy Spirit is leading them too. That is what Todd is doing, and I wholeheartedly love and respect him (full disclosure: he’s my pastor and mentor and he could probably think Coldplay is a great band and I would still love and respect him.) So please, let’s not put words into people’s mouths here, especially if they are completely different than the words that same person said, documentedly (heck yes I’m making up words now) and on CD for anyone and everyone to hear.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Lawrence,
I’m sorry that is is under these circumstances, but I really enjoy your posts, and I’m glad you’re here.
Keep making up words and cracking jokes (coldplay). Laughter is medicinal.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
This is what was communicated at the Family Meeting when Danny read from Todd’s resignation letter: He was resigning as a pastor and elder of MLC, and rescinding his membership at MLC, and, most likely, not attend an SGM church when he relocates.
If he does or doesn’t, does that really matter to anyone except Todd and his family? Is it a win for the anti-SGM crowd if he doesn’t, or a win for the other side if he does. Whatever Todd and his family decides to do, in no doubt, will be what he feels God is directing him to do.
I can fully understand his reasons if doesn’t anymore. But it’s not up to me, or even any of my business. I wish him the best, and will miss him greatly. I’ve told him that. I didn’t grill him on his reasons for leaving. That’s a private matter between him, God, and the other pastors on staff.
The problems at MLC will either continue, or get fixed. We as members can either stick around, make our voice heard, and wait to see what happens, or we can leave. What is God telling you to do (not the pastors or home group leaders)? It’s no one’s decision to make for you, and don’t wait for others to lead the way for you. Pray and ask God what He wants you to do.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Lawrence,
Thanks for sharing the context. That clarifies what Dave Harvey said. I have not been able to find his message online to hear what he actually said, so I have had to depend on what is quoted here. I do not live anywhere near Orlando so I don’t have access to those CDs.
I am so glad to hear Dave Harvey’s phrase “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” means that we should seek to further GOD’S purpose in the church. I’m sorry about guessing wrong on his meaning.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Thanks CD-well said.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
“If someone holds theological or relational differences than the church they attend, and they feel like those differences do not allow them in good conscience to take part in that church or movement, then obviously they go to whatever church or movement they feel the Holy Spirit is leading them too. That is what Todd is doing, and I wholeheartedly love and respect him…” — Lawrence
There are really a few things we know for sure:
1. Todd is resigning, withdrawing his family’s membership, and evaluating his continued involvement in SGM
2. He is leaving due to 3 reasons: issues withing leadership, lack of relational connection with the other pastors, and a desire to relocate serve family members with health issues located out of state
Theological differences were never cited. I’m not sure what a relational difference is exactly, but it does sound like Todd wasn’t connecting relationally with the other pastors as he would have liked. However, I do know that Todd had very deep relationships with members of the congregation.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
John Galt
What an encouraging post. That gives me hope! We haven’t darkened the doors of ANY “church” since we left SGM. Your post gives me hope–thanks
January 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Lawrence, I’ve heard Dave Harvey say many wonderful and inspiring things on other occasions and I sure respect him for that. That one repeated phrase just struck me odd right then, like a last ditch plea for everyone to stick around in the name of loyalty when he knew some of them would want to bolt out of the building on the spot.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Hi Carole! Hope you are doing well!!!
January 12th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Hi Canary!! I sent you a note…
January 12th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
Allow me to bask in the irony of D. Harvey’s sentiments.
January 12th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Hey DB, Long time, no see!
Carole, Got your note – back at ya.
January 12th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Gratefully, I am glad you are encouraged. In the right time the Lord will lead you to a great group of fellow Christians!!! In the meantime no one can take away the wonderful joy and fulness that comes from knowing Christ!!!!
January 13th, 2010 at 12:32 am
It’s refreshing to hear that Harvey’s comments did not include the “once you remove yourself from our covering you’re doomed” idea.
January 13th, 2010 at 12:44 am
I have been hesitant to comment, not sure what or how much to say.
I have been reading and posting on this site since the beginning and before that, over at survivors. In all my blog conversations, I have never knowingly interacted with someone I knew from my old PDI church. However, it is quite possible I know some of you posting here now, though you would have had to been around for a long time.
What I can contribute is this: the authoritarian leadership problem (leadership that oversteps its New Testament bounds) has been around MLC for a long time, since the church’s entrance into PDI. We encountered it early on and pushed back. You can read my account in the My Story section of the blog.
Since my involvement on the blogs, I have read reports of some from the Orlando area who gave glowing examples of grace in the leadership there. I cannot dispute that; I can only say that was not our experience during our time. Men can change; error can be corrected. We sincerely hoped for that. However, Dorothy’s original post here, sadly, sums up the same errors that we saw many, many years ago. I remember. I remember feeling the very things Dorothy expressed in her post – the sadness, the anger, the exasperation, the confusion, the loss.
I post now, not because I’m still wounded, and not to continually dredge up the past. I am not angry or bitter or unforgiving. I am healed. No one owes me an apology and I am not looking for reconciliation. I post in order to document the ongoing error from its earliest roots and to offer prayer and hope to those who continue to be injured by it.
Praying for you all…
January 13th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Gracie, what is a “glowing example of grace”? What kind of grace?
In my SGM and MLC experience, those are phrases that work like fog works at early morning over the fields. Fascination, but no clear sight…
@all: That kind of language is obvious in Danny’s e-mail posted above, and that kind of language has the most potential of keeping members who want to hear spiritually sounding stuff like that in the fold. They will go “aaaawwwww……”. And stay. Even if the pastor whom they loved yesterday has just decided that SGM is no place to stay. And since he is too gracious to publish the reasons for his departure, and the rest of the leadership has “graciously offered” that one may contact them per phone or e-mail to select an appointed time for visitation with the Sirs Shephers in order to give reasons for leadership team issues behind closed doors, nothing will happen.
“Sooooo much grrrrrrrace, so much need of God, so much need of the Spirit…. !” Sounds holy, doesn’t it?
January 13th, 2010 at 6:37 am
DEAR JOEY A.K.A SON OF BENNY,
FIRST OFF BEFORE YOU COME HERE AND KNOW NOT OF WHAT YOU SPEAK TELL YOUR DAD TO ANSWER FOR HIMSELF. IT LOOKS SO LAME THAT YOU COME ON HERE IN HIS PLACE.
JOEY, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN THE OFFICE WHEN SOMEONE CONFRONTS YOUR DAD, BENNY, ABOUT AN AREA ON CONCERN PERSONNALLY OR IN THE CHURCH AND SEEN HIS RESPONSE? NOPE YOU HAVE NOT, BUT I GO TO METRO AND HAVE BEEN ON THE OTHER END OF BEING TOLD ON MORE THAT ONE OCCASSION THAT WHAT I WAS BRINGING WAS FULL OF SIN. AS A MATTER OF FACT HE TEACHES HG LEADERS IN HIS SPHERE TO USE THAT TACTIC AS WELL. IT IS YOU’RE DADS WAY OF UNAPPROACHABILTY. SOMETHING HE AND DANNY SAID WOULD CHANGE AFTER THE FAMILY MEETING WE HAD DURINGTHE SUMMER. GUESS WHAT? NO CHANGE! IT IS A BULLYING TECHNIQUE.
IN SHORT, YOU’RE ANALYLSIS OF THE APPROACHABILITY OF THE TEAM IS ZERO. THE OPEN QUESTIONS AFTER THE MEETING? THEY WERE CROWD CONTROL. THERE WAS NO MEAT – NO ANSWERS BECAUSE THE STANDARD ANSWER WAS “WE REALLY DON’T KNOW WE JUST HEARD ABOUT THIS OURSELVES”. AGAIN, NO REAL ANSWERS, I TRIED THAT AS WELL. MY MUTLI HOUR MEETINGS WITH DANNY/TODD? NO FOLLOW- UP AND WORTHLESS. SO STOP BEING YOUR DADS DEFENDER. IT IS SAD AND REALLY WEAK !
ARE YOU STILL A PART AND MEMBER AT METRO? DO YOU WANT THE TRUTH? FORGET ABOUT CALLING BENNY OR DANNY. CALL TODD. HE STILL CARES FOR THE SHEEP HERE.
JOEY, YOUR SMUG ADDITUDE IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR SEVERAL QUALITY YOUNG MEN, {ONE WHO HAD A BASKETBALL AWARD WAS NAMED AFTER HIM FOR HIS EXCELLENT SPORTSMANSHIP, REMEMBER HIM?} EXIT THE CHURCH DOORS.
YOU AND YOUR BUDDIES EVEN BULLIED MY FRIEND’S SON- ALONG WITH THREE OTHER YOUNG MEN- OUT OF A CABIN AT A CELEBRATION CONFERENCE ON THE WEST COAST OF FLORIDA AT MIDNIGHT AFTER THEY WERE ALL SETTLED IN, UNPACKED AND ASLEEP. YOU WOKE UP THREE TIRED SLEEP YOUNG MEN. WHY? BECAUSE YOU DECIDED THAT CABIN WAS YOURS. YOU SAID MY DAD – BENNY- SAID IT WAS OK! WAS THAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO? USE YOUR DAD TO PULL RANK WITH THREE YOUNG MEN? MAKE THEM PACK ALL THEIR STUFF, REMOVE ALL THEIR BEDDING AND MOVE IN THE CABIN NEXT DOOR? DID YOU EVER REPENT FOR SUCH SELFISHNESS? NO. DID YOUR DAD EVER CORRECT THAT SITUATION, NO. YOU’RE THE PASTORS KID, YOU DO AS YOU PLEASE!
THE LONG AND THE SHORT OF THAT STORY WAS THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN WHOSE FAITH AND CONNECTION TO THE CHURCH WAS MINIUMAL. THAT CABIN ASSIGNMENET WAS REQUESTED BY HIS PARENTS TO REKINDLE RELATIONSHIPS HE HAD WITH KIDS HE WAS CLOSE TO WHEN HE WAS YOUNG. YOUR SELFFISH, SELFCENTERED DEMANDS TO MOVE THOSE YOUNG MEN INTO THE OTHER SIDE OF A CABIN WITH OLDER MEN FROM THE ST PETE CHURCH WHO HAD MENTAL HEALTH AND PHYSICAL ISSUES TRASHED THEIR CELEBRATION CONFERENCE. THE QUESTIONS BEGS TO BE ASKED, IF YOU ARE SUCH A SERVANT, PK MAN, WHY DID YOU NOT TAKE YOUR FRIENDS AND GO IN THE CABIN WITH THOSE BROTHERS FROM ST PETE? WAS IT BENEATH YOU? TOO UNCOOL TO BE IN A CABIN WITH THREE PHYSICALLY CHALLENGED BROTHERS- ONE BLIND, ONE WITH CP? I GUESS SO. THE PARENTS OF THE YOUNG MEN WERE APPAULDED, BUT IT WAS BENNY’ SON, YOU DARE NOT MAKE TOO MANY WAVES. AFTER YOU YOUR DAD SAID IT WAS OK TO BE THAT SELFISH AND THAT RUDE.
FOLKS I PRESENT TO YOU JOEY PHILLIPS. THE GUY TOO COOL FOR THE PEOPLE JESUS CAME TO MINISTER TO- THE LOWLY AND THE LEPERS. JUST TOO COOL FOR HIMSELF. THE APPLE DOES NOT FALL FAR FROM THE TREE. ENOUGH SAID ON BENNY’S SON.
TO ALL OF US STILL LEFT AT METRO, MYSELF INCLUDED- IF OUR LEADERSHIP TEAM AND DAVE HARVEY HAD OPENED UP THE MIC FOR QUESTIONS AND ALLOWED TODD TO TALK,{ INSTEADING OF ACTING LIKE THEY WERE ALL IN SHOCK} MOST OF WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ON THIS BLOG WOULD NOT BE HAPPENING BECAUSE THE CHURCH WE ATTEND WOULD BE OUR FORUM, NOT A BLOG. THERE WOULD ALSO BE FEWER QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. MANY OF US WANT TO KNOW THE SAME THINGS. WHY NOT ANSWER OUR QUESTIONS PUBLICLY,OR WAS THAT TOO SCARY AFTER THE OPEN MIC AT THE SUMMER FAMILY MEETING? WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO HIDE? WOULD THAT NOT BE MORE TIME EFFECTIVE, OR ARE YOU AFRAID OF EVERYONE SEEING HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE QUESTIONING WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON IN OUR CHURCH?
WHO IS GOING TO HOLD AN APOSTLE { DANNY} ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MEN UNDER HIM? THREE SENIOR PASTORS WHO WILL REPORT TO DAVE HARVEY THAT LIVE HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY IN THREE OTHER SGM CHURCHES. WHERE IS CJ? WHO IS GOING TO QUESTION BENNY’S ROLE IN THIS? JESSE, HIS SON THE NEWPASTOR ON STAFF?
I HAVE GONE, I HAVE ASKED, I HAVE SKIPPED WORK TO AIR MY THOUGHTS AND CONCERNS. I HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN, SO HERE I AM.
January 13th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Square Peg said, ”It’s refreshing to hear that Harvey’s comments did not include the ‘“once you remove yourself from our covering you’re doomed”’ idea.”
AMEN to that Square Peg!
John Galt: Yes indeed!
“Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ” (Romans 8:35–39, NASB95) Might I add, NOR SGM!!!!!
January 13th, 2010 at 8:02 am
Gracie, where is the link to your story on this site? I’m having a hard time navigating.
Hope, I think I read in the comments on the About page that you were from Metro Life too. Did you ever post your story?
Any other Metro Life story posts that I’m missing?
Betrayed: Wow! That was a mouthful! I can see your heart beating hard for the wounded among us. And there are so many more than the ones you mentioned. Bandaids obviously aren’t going to work here. What would a tourniquet look like in this situation?
We can’t wait for the pastors to stanch all the bleeding, though they must do their part. Metro folk, if you see someone hurting, step up and join the triage medic team with the compassion of Jesus and the wise leading of the Holy Spirit. This is spiritual warfare.
Metro parents, take the time to talk with your teens about their experiences. You might be surprised to find what their true concerns are, what their experience has been with youth ministry, their friendships, and other facets of church life. Are they really getting grace or have they been thrown into a funk by legalism on the one hand and/or worldliness on the other?
January 13th, 2010 at 8:21 am
MetroStill,
You’ll find Gracie’s story here
January 13th, 2010 at 8:52 am
Betrayed,
I am so sorry for all your hurt, pain and misery. You obviously have been abused as have many others in SGM churches. You are so right concerning why things end up on the blog! My question for you is – why are you still in Metro?
January 13th, 2010 at 8:56 am
John Galt,
What a wonderful post of God’s grace in your life! Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the SGM pastors are so unavailable? Our SGM church had a handful of families and singles and scheduling time with the pastor was always a long way out, even if initiated by him it would be a month or more out. I never understood it. I am now in a large church with a much larger member to pastor ratio (more people than pastors) and it is no issue getting in to see the Sr pastor anytime.
John Galt said: “Also in the service the pastor speaks for about 20-25 minutes maybe 30 at the most. What i like about the sermons is they are more like talks as opposed to a college level theology class. yet, these men have more education and say more in less time in a way that is easy to understand and will help you grow.”
My experience where I am now would be the same. It’s like opening the window in a musty room and fresh air blowing all around you; You just drink it in an enjoy. Talk of sin? Yes, it is there, but it is not what the pastors dwell on. They dwells on the grace of God.
January 13th, 2010 at 10:16 am
Famagusta,
Evidently, our hope for change and real grace has not been realized. I am truly sorry.
I no longer have any connections or communications with MLC. Our experience was 20 years ago. I can easily be written off by pro-SGM folks as one of those “anomalies that happened 20 years ago”. I wish that was the case.
When posters here and at survivors have occasionally said MLC was different, that the SGM problems were not as evident or even existent there, I had no way to refute them in any first hand way. I had no way of knowing if change had happened in anyone’s heart. I sincerely hoped change had come. So, I never contradicted those pro-MLC posters with my story. In fact, I have never shared where my experience took place – until now.
Because of that, because I vividly remember being exactly where you dear folks find yourselves today, this conversation is especially poignant to me. Famagusta, Betrayed, MetroStill, Metro Lurker, Collateral Damage, and all others, you are on my heart today. I am alive and well and can tell you there is life and liberty after PDI/SGM, but today I pray God will allow me to bear some of your burden.
January 13th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Gracie, your sweet post brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for your kind thoughts and prayers. I just read your story with the link Jim provided here – for those who are looking it was on June 26 down the page.
January 13th, 2010 at 11:33 am
@ Gracie: no worries about me, personally. It’s not that I haven’t experienced grace. I’m just very skeptical about language layered with the word “grace” in such contexts coming from SGM leaders. It is such an umbrella term that makes it all too easy to hide under. I guess you know what I mean.
January 13th, 2010 at 11:35 am
There has been one obvious question that has been left out, about this Metro problem. What effect does this have on the Florida churches. Apparently, Danny has somewhat of a leadership factor with these churches and Todd had a great influence on these churches as well. Any family meetings with the local churches, or little whispers of the ‘Todd Situation’ among them?? I’m guessing not. While Danny and Co. are circling the wagons, who is keeping real accountability within the other local churches of Florida, and are the churches aware of the problem the leadership is having??? To be informed, would be… somewhat helpful for those members who can step up in viligilance and in accountability to these pastors. Just a thought. Also, sources have it, that there is a group of guys that are apart of a ‘ghost leadership’. These men help and serve Danny with the the other Florida churches. I do not know what their responsibilities are or what measure of ‘power’ they have, I just know these men are to be considered a special group/panel. As far as I understood it….. it has been Jim Britt – SC, Jerry Ceasr – Tampa/St Pete, and Al Pino – Miami, and also maybe Shannon Day – Niceville. Any comments???
Also, what happen to the quite, slipping away of Bill McKelvey? Anyone know? As long as its not gossip. And what happen to Scott Hawkins? Two more pastors that are not with us any longer.
Also, Jim, have you heard of the term….. ‘civil liablity’ as it pertains to SGM? It has come up again on my radar and wondered if you have come across this practice/term.
-DES
January 13th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Betrayed,
Wow. We could all tell similar stories about the favoratism we saw at sgm, but your story blows my mind. Wow.
Gracie,
As usual, your words are so gentle. I went back to read the “MY STORY” site and got caught up in it. We should all revisit it. It is why this whole blog was started. It will remind us that what is happening at Metro Life is really nothing new, maybe just more public than our own experiences were. It was re-envisioning to read again. We are on this blog for a purpose!
January 13th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Dan,
To answer your question about Scott Hawkins. Scott stepped down as pastor of Grace Community Church in the Sarasota/Bradenton area in mid-2008. Scott was pastor for 6+ years at GCC. He was persuaded to step down and let someone else lead the church. Scott’s mismanagement of the church, and not receiving input from others, pretty much from the first day he took over (Jim Britt planted it originally), led to his being encouraged to step down. The church had not grown in 6+ years, and many, many good people had left, or were threatening to leave. Out of the 5 families that planted that church, only 1 remains. He and his family have since moved from Sarasota to the Denver area to be a part of Glenn McKenzie’s church.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
Lawrence said January 12th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I agree that everyone should “recommit to the glorious cause of the local church” whatever their church may be. I think that’s pretty clear in scripture.
I’m afraid I don’t understand this saying and I would ask you where that is pretty clear in Scripture??
I know this is basic, but it feels like you are swimming in KoolAid and I must ask.
JESUS should be exalted. His name is above every name (and organization). But the “glorious cause of the church” ? What would that be? But perhaps to obey Matthew 6:33 ?
Fixing our eyes on Jesus has nothing to do with accepting any glory as part of His beloved, His bride, His local Universal Church. I am not aware of ANY Scripture in which a local congregation is considered or called glorious. Please consider Philippians 2:1-11 if you want more verses to consider, to the Glory of God our Father.
I’m sorry if this sounds picky. But I think it is a very key distinction.
John Galt, congratulations on moving on. God is Good. And He has loving wonderful, non-self-preserving leaders all over the countryside, to His prais and glory.
Flotsam and Jestsam, isn’t Liberty in Christ Jesus a beautiful thing?!
May God bless and lead you all in Florida.
~Defended.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:37 pm
Okay, so I am fairly new to SGM and am involved in a church that is within the administrative area of MLC. Just a few questions & comments (or should I call them “observations”?):
@MetroStill, re the comment from 01/12 @ 308, “He resigned just days before an SGM assessment team was scheduled to start evaluating leadership.” Are “assessment team” evaluations regular occurrences within SGM churches (anyone else feel free to answer as well). That’s very disturbing to me if that is the case…maybe I’m too used to autonomy. Does anyone else find the idea of someone providing “oversight” to another church odd, when that overseer may not have a relationship with anyone other than the pastor(s)? Am I the only one that feels this way?
We live in a post-PTL-Swaggart-Haggard world. The bad thing about church scandals is that the Bride of Christ is shamed before the world. The good thing is that we are reminded of what the church was supposed to be all along: A community of believers, living in relationships with each other. A shepherd must know (and be known by) his sheep. The minute we put “apostles” over churches that they are not personally involved in, we take the New Testament church and morph it into an altogether different institution.
I truly do pity many of the staff members in SGM churches. The expectations placed on them are so great. I have witnessed this first hand. Pastors (and “Pastors-In-Training”-the PIT’s) are under so much pressure to act a certain way, deal with their children & spouses in a certain way, talk a certain way, etc. They are being loaded with burdens that are hard to bear (Matt 23:4, Luke 11:46). Men who have invested half of their lives in this organization face enormous pressure from a leadership structure that should not be there, and that pressure has to go somewhere. Unfortunately, it is in turn exerted on the membership. I do not know the situation at MLC, but it seems that what is happening there is the result of that pressure. I have no doubt that most SGM pastors truly love God and desire to serve, but I think the intentions are sometimes very misguided.
To those of you who have been hurt-especially for those of you who have not “darkened the doors of any ‘church’” (especially thinking about Disillusioned), please know that I am praying for you. I’m praying specifically that you will find a church where you can be vulnerable once again and that you will enjoy biblical fellowship.
Brothers and Sisters, God is sovereign-even over Sovereign Grace Ministries. What others mean for evil (or just extremely misguided faulty good intentions), God will mean it for His good.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:11 am
MetroStill,
I’m not from Metro as I mentioned in my 1/9 . I have a post in Moving on 9/21, with a little. I’m not going into much more detail now as I’d be known and don’t want to be. I would like to write more sometime soon to tell of the Lord’s kindness in pulling us out of the mire and setting our feet on good ground, which He has. We’re experiencing joy, freedom and growth and are serving in ways that would never have been possible within SGM. Our true friends are still our true friends, the others never were. It’s hard to miss “friends” who who don’t give a lick as to why you vanished. I don’t have time to lament their loss, the fields are ripe and there’s work to do. Moving on was good.
Hope (recently departed from SGM)
January 14th, 2010 at 12:56 am
Yes indeed Defended! Liberty in Christ Jesus is a wonderous beautiful thing! Even to this day I still find myself reflecting on the freedom I have experienced since leaving SGM.
I am reminded of the story of how the most powerful land animal on the planet — the elephant — can be restrained. Secure a baby elephant firmly with a strong rope and a sturdy stake driven deep into the ground. The baby elephant will struggle to break free, but struggle as it will, it cannot escape its bonds. It will eventually tire and give up trying. Thereafter, as soon as it reaches the end of its rope, it will go no further. It has been trained to think that it cannot break free of its bonds; its spirit broken.
The elephant grows stronger, while the rope becomes thinner and the stake smaller. Yet every time the elephant meets resistance from the end of the rope, it stops. It will go no further because it has learned not to try to break free. Eventually the elephant reaches full size and, having learned the behavioral lessons of infancy so well, it can be easily restrained by only a thin rope and a tiny stake. It has long given up trying to break free of its bonds of captivity.
I too had learned the rope limits and let them define who and what I could be. Legalism and control coupled with the ever present manhunt for sin had beome my rope, anchored in place by a controlling pastor.
Once I left, it took time to discover that the rope and stake were really gone! The English Revised Version puts it this way — Where there is no vision the people cast off restraint (Proverbs 29:18). I found myself re-evaluating so much of what I had learned during the years at SGM…and found a whole lot of rope and stakes – man-made restraints without a sound biblical foundation–lifeless, visionless rules that I now found easy to cast off!
I found myself being re-envisioned. It has been truely amazing to see the doors that God has opened up since leaving SGM. My wife and I have made friendships that cross denomintation bounds, and are finding ways to serve and live the Gospel that never would have been possible with our very short SGM rope.
To those hurting at MLC, I hope and pray that things improve greatly, but if not, remember the lesson of the elephant and break free of your bonds.
I am saddened to see that a once an amazing church has morphed into something much less and am reminded of the verse in Revelation rebuking the church in Ephesus:
“You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place” Revelations2:4-5
January 14th, 2010 at 6:09 am
Good Morning B-I-B-L-E,
I do not know how long you have been a part of an SGM Church, but you belong to an organization that believes in Apostolic over site. To my knowledge there has only been two other occurrences where SGM has used assessment teams, as opposed to someone from the Apostolic Team being directly involved. Since SGM churches do not have deacons and elders a point they would argue with you about because they call their “pastors” “elders” as well— kind of like saying that you are the president and the vice president at the same time—. The part of purpose of the”A” team is a system of checks and balances from outside the church. That system has not worked well in the past decade and has met with recent catastrophic results. Members of the churches are now speaking with their checkbook and their feet.
Pastors, when approached about issues the members have with them, are often met with being told what they are bringing to their attention is full of sin, or they they need to have “their minds informed” or accuse them of worldly thinking. There has been a consistent pattern of unapproachability. Home group leadership requires members to be FAT= Faithful, Accountable, and Teachable.Basically what this has turned into is if you question your leadership you are not FAT and you need to set down. HOWEVER, if you do not display FAT qualities when participating in your home group, you will never be recommended or asked. Your home group leader hands in reports on YOU. They also recommend YOU .. or not… to leadership of any kind.
IF you express a desire to serve to you we told to ” let another man recognize your gifts” and that you are “tooting your own horn”. You may even hear that God is “ already using you, whats your problem?” Some pastors in SGM churches are better than others, but I was convinced that people were smoking banannas in my MLC location when I kept hearing from friends that there was trouble in paradise. Well, at our summer family meeting they opened the floor up for questions < a new age of openness was to begin> and people had some questions and a few unflattering statements for Danny and Benny. Last meeting? NO OPEN MIC for questions.
I had quite a few queations and I made an appointment with Benny. The rest of my story in obnoxious caps is up top so I will not bore everyone twice. It did not go well. Follow up with Danny was met with tons of not taking and no feedback. Now all we are talking about is GRACE GRACE GRACE. What a change change change. All talk. Talk is cheap.
I hope this is somewhat helpful. Your SGM church may be healthy. I would not want to sway you. Talk you your leadership team and ask questions. You will know how healthy they are by how they respond.
January 14th, 2010 at 6:14 am
Hi all,
I’ve watched and read in silence these sad accounts, and join all in praying for the hurt at Metro and praying for the leadership. I find it hard to be objective about SGM leadership mainly because my family are still in SGM in both Wales and England. The thought of the SGM leaders mis-treating ANY of my beloved family makes my blood boil (and thank God it hasn’t happened … yet). But the Metro church website sets the goal-posts appropriately high for ANY church leaders;
“It is their (the leaders) passion that every believer be fully equipped for the work of service that they are called to, fulfilling their destiny in Him in order that they might stand before God and hear Him say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
That’s the truth of it. When these leaders stand before God, they won’t be able to construct clever sermonettes that subtlely blame the church for any failures. I wonder how these men sleep at night. I know I wouldn’t knowing the heavy burden of responsibility – let alone deal with church members the way that some are accounting.
I really do pray that SGM leadership everywhere will be refreshed with the responsibility that they carry before God for what they do. And I pray that the hurting will remember that Jesus Christ Himself (the role model for any leaders surely) said that HE came to “bind up the broken-hearted and set at liberty the captives”.
January 14th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Danny Jones comments on Todd leaving in the first part of this past Sunday’s message, if you are interested. He gets into it especially following his prayer. click here ! Then click on “Recent Sermons” at the right part of the web page, clicking on the microphone icon with the sermon titled “The Wonder of God’s Love.” At the end of his comments, he talks about how to get answers to questions you may have. Would love to hear those who know the Metro situation and DJ to respond with their thoughts, and yes their “observations!”
January 14th, 2010 at 11:51 am
We’ve had the opportunity to ask some questions, getting some answers, certainly not expecting all the gory details. They are acknowleding problems with sorting out roles, responsibilities, and relationships among the leadership team. It will be interesting to see how this all works out. It’s going to take time. We’re in no hurry to leave.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Thanks MetroStill for your feed back. Whether you leave or stay, may Abba continue to give you wisdom and discernment as you process all that is before you. In the end, God will clearly direct you and your family.
As for me, once they broke trust with our family, our ears became deaf to their words because their actions overrode the noise. In the past, we stayed and stayed and stayed, running past red flag after red flag, only to eventually realize that honey-filled words are not a valid substitute for wrong-headed authoritative leadership paradigms. Those paradigms will not go away because of the percieved need to manage the sheep. Ironically, Jesus said, “my sheep hear my voice and follow me” Mmmmmmmmmm, imagine that! We over stayed because our relationship base had been established and built at the “church!” We had the hardest time in that area, but found that REAL friendships go far beyond where I park myself at 10am on a given Sunday morning and were we do care-group.
January 14th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
BTW, when I said in my 11:51 AM comment that we weren’t expecting all the gory detail, it’s not that the details ARE gory (I don’t think they are), just that we aren’t expecting them to air all of their dirty laundry that would not be edifying. I personally don’t want to reveal everything about my own life and relationships, which is one thing I know so many of you agree with — that often those boundaries of privacy have been overstepped in counseling and home groups. Likewise, I don’t expect them to overstep the boundaries of discretion with their own relationship struggles among themeselves. They can be appropriately informative without sharing every last detail.
January 14th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
FOR BETRAYED……
“I do not know how long you have been a part of an SGM Church, but you belong to an organization that believes in Apostolic over site. To my knowledge there has only been two other occurrences where SGM has used assessment teams, as opposed to someone from the Apostolic Team being directly involved. Since SGM churches do not have deacons and elders…”
I just wanted to point something out to help you in your understanding of the new SGM…. lol….. SGM no longer has Apostolic oversite of the local churches. It may seem that way, but they truly do not have it any longer. If you want to contact me….I can give you examples of why I know this to be true. In matter of fact, if you said this to CJ, today…. he would correct you in your terminology and focus of what SGM is to the local church. Dave Harvey and Co are revisting and trying to implement the polity statement, as of right now. There are elders and deacons, and I have seen many assessment teams….. its just the local churches do not want you to know these things…. to keep control. I tell you what…..as of late SGM is losing its grip on power here in the local church. Ask Jim for my e-mail, if you want.
-DES
January 14th, 2010 at 4:16 pm
Dan Sickles
Interesting comment you just made. That is interesting if SGM is truly changing their polity to have local elders that aren’t pastors and deacons.
If they are planning on making this change, why the secrecy? Perhaps when one is starting to consider something like this this there is need to keep things quiet but if the decision is made then why not share it?
Of course maybe they are following their typical MOP and change something that is wrong but never come out and admit the past mistake.
It will be encouraging if they really change their polity to what you say. I wouldn’t and won’t get my hopes up on this.
January 14th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Dan
I would also add that SGM may not call these leaders “apostles” any longer but would be quite surprised their function really changed. The probably changed the name due to not like the notariety that calling these men “apostles” brought the group.
January 14th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Dan’s information makes a lot of sense. This would explain why it took so long for anything to be done in our ex-SGC. SGM doesn’t have any real authority over the local churches (i.e. hiring & firing of pastors.) It’s a local decision. SGM doesn’t “own” any of the local churches. I guess the only authority SGM may have is the ability to dis-associate with the local church, and put them out to pasture, so to speak. SGM will help when they are asked to (e.g. assessment teams), but it’s ultimately the church’s board of directors’ decision. Every church has a board since it’s an incorporated entity. (Metro Life’s is Danny Jones, Todd Twining, Chip Chew, and Benny Phillips.) They are the ones that make those kinds of decisions. The problem was that our ex-SGC only had 2 board members. The SP and a CGL. No possible way to have a majority if these two disagreed on a matter, like the SP’s employment. The SP had to make the decision to leave, since no one had the authority to remove him. A majority of board members was not possible. Now our ex-SGC has 3 board members. One of which is a pastor in another town.
Am I thinking about all this correctly?
January 14th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Steve240………..
Here’s an excerpt from the Atlanta Church’s Web site on elders (bold font is mine)……………..
“Elders
Elders are the leaders of the church who in the Bible are also called
pastors, shepherds, and overseers (Acts 20:28; Ephesians 4:11; 1 Peter
5:2). The elders are men chosen for their ministry according to clear
biblical requirements (1 Timothy 2:11-3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9). The elders
are always spoken of in plurality, because God intends for more than one
man to lead and rule over the church as a safeguard for both the church
and the man. The elders’ duties include ruling (1 Timothy 5:17),
managing (1 Timothy 3:4-5), tending (1 Peter 5:2-5), giving account
(Hebrews 13:17), living exemplary lives (Hebrews 13:7), using authority
(Acts 20:28), teaching (Ephesians 4:11, 1 Timothy 3:2), preaching (1
Timothy 5:17), instructing in doctrine (Titus 1:9), and disciplining
(Matthew 18:15-17).
Sovereign Grace is an elder-governed church, not a
congregational/member-governed church. It is our view that scripture
does not call for the church to be run by the members in a democratic
fashion, but that it clearly teaches that the elders are the directors,
managers, and overseers of the church (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:17; Titus
1:7-9; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; Acts 20:17-38). This does
not mean that the elders will not seek the input of the members when
making decisions for the church. The elders desire to be as open as
possible with the members of the church, seeking as much input as
possible from the members in order to make decisions that reflect the
conscience, first of God and second, of the membership of the body. It
is the hope and prayer of the elders to lead Sovereign Grace in humility
and with godly motives. The elders are always open to brotherly and
sisterly discussion, criticism and/or advice, as long as it is done so
in love. And, the elders would appreciate your prayers for wisdom and
discernment to lead Sovereign Grace in a manner that is holy and
blameless.”
Must be nice to dictate exactly how you (the elders) will deal with the other members of the Body. Does this sound just a little overbearing and controlling to anyone else???
N.S.L.B.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
To Metrostill….I join Gratefully Disillusioned in praying for you and wishing you all of God’s best.
I also have a little bit of distance now from the SGM-speak, and some of your posts have it, while you might not realize it. For example, when a CGL says “I didn’t get a chance to read that (article).” They are NOT really taking responsiblity for their choices and time mgmt. are they? Have you heard such concessions? (that was used here in CO, by a leader trained by Benny but not in Florida, just to be clear)
Likewise, when you say “they are acknowledging problems with sorting out roles,” …etc.
do you hear any humble admissions of sin, such as they might expect from YOU if you were in a management role? Do you hear an actual admission of failure or taking responsibility for such problems? Fascinating to me how men are actually allowed to non-admit their fault, responsiblity or even sin. How many years has Todd been on staff? And roles and responsibilities weren’t clear or implemented? God is a God of order! Honestly I know nothing of the MLC life and management, but I pray that the scales on ALL eyes are removed so that those preaching that the congregation face, admit, & confess sin would be held to the same account and standard and do the same. You might not be in a hurry to leave and I don’t blame you, with how involved you probably are. But if only your leaders were in a hurry to truly serve you with transparency and integrity, then they would be deserving of your trust and loyalty, unto Jesus, of course.
Respectfully submitted,
~Defended
January 14th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Defended, the way I understand it, one of the reasons that roles and responsibilities got muddled is that Danny has spent a lot of time traveling to oversee the other churches in the southeast region. During that time, Benny assumed many of the spiritual responsibilities. Now that Danny is committed to spending more time at Metro Life, he is in the process of transferring those back to Danny. They have actually used the word “sin” in reference to their own behavior and that they are willing to change. Pray for them!
January 14th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
I’m afraid we’re in danger to could the real issues we should be “gossipping” about with a discussion about the well-established fact of the lack of transparency in SGM leaderships. That needs no proof and should be obvious anyways, despite the “come ye all who have observations” speeches.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Edit: “CLOUD” the real issues’ is what its supposed to say in the first line. Not “could”.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:55 pm
roles and responsibilities got muddled is that Danny has spent a lot of time traveling to oversee the other churches in the southeast region. During that time, Benny assumed many of the spiritual responsibilities. Now that Danny is committed to spending more time at Metro Life, he is in the process of transferring those back to Danny. They have actually used the word “sin” in reference to their own behavior and that they are willing to change. Pray for them!
So, did Danny, Benny, et al come to the congregation begging forgiveness that their (muddled) SIN and mis-management caused one of their brothers to resign? If so, I apologize for missing that part of the report. I know I didn’t hear that part in Danny’s subsequent sermon recording.
(does Benny’s son Joey know this part of their confession?)
Believe me, I do pray for them. The Scripture F&J quoted, Rev. 2:4-5 sends a chill down my spine! Not to mention the other Rev. passage about lies that someone else quoted!
January 14th, 2010 at 10:20 pm
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Meanwhile over at the corporate web site, CJ blogs on 1/13 about “Resolving Conflict – A New Resource for Pastors”. Conflict resolution in a box … from … PeaceMakers. Maybe this can be tested within SGM by the PASTORS and corporate staff … before they inflict it on the sheep.
Metro is just the latest of leadership gaffes permitted by poor local and upper level leadership. Orlando, Gilbert, San Diego, Fairfax, Chesapeake, SF Bay, NYC … where’s next?
Suggestion for CJ, DH, SS (maybe even BobK) – take care of the sheep this year. Instead of running off to the next conference, take the year and do some real searching on the atrocities happening in your own house. Instead of a new book, another conference, more CDs/MP3s, guest writing a blog, take care of your own. Try some quality checking; contact members, pastor, and staff that have fled the movement over the past couple of years and find out why they really left. Act like you really care about what happens in SG.
Former SG Pastor
January 14th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
FSGP!
Bravo!
January 14th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Quizzler
Thanks for sharing that information.
SGM may be an “elder lead” organization but as has been previously discussed:
elder = pastor
in SGM land.
At most other churches the elders are typically a lay group of people from the church that the pastoral staff reports to. It provides a check and balance that one would think would be so necessary since SGM is so quick to admit how “imperfect” their leaders are.
Thanks for the quotes and bold about their “ruling.” That says a lot about them.
January 15th, 2010 at 12:36 am
Collateral Damage,
SGM churches sign an agreement with SGM Inc. You, and every member should ask to see this agreement.
If you’re “allowed” to see the agreement, you’ll find that you are partially right.
Here are two sections:
“Member-churches and Sovereign Grace as independent and autonomously governed entities jointly agree to be responsible for all respective claims, loss, damage, liability, or expenses occasioned or claimed by reason of acts or neglects of their own employees or visitors or of independent contractors. Accordingly each entity whose alleged action or inaction gives rise to third-party claims against the others will indemnify and hold harmless the others for any such claims or expense.”
And:
“Member-church pastors/leaders must demonstrate a humble willingness to open their lives and local church to the gracious evaluation of a Sovereign Grace representative. In the event of any situation involving one or more local-church leaders suspected of heresy or significant sin/impropriety in sexual, financial, or other significant matters that threaten the unity of the entire church, the church leadership commits to involve the leadership of Sovereign Grace as soon as possible.”
My question is, how can a SGC be “independent and autonomously governed” while “Member-church pastors/leaders must demonstrate a humble willingness to open their lives and local church to the gracious evaluation of a Sovereign Grace representative.”
IMO, the document protects SGM Inc from being sued for the brain-dead actions of some of their pastors while keeping the authority structure in place.
January 15th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Betrayed and Defended,
I just moved here from CO. I was planning on joining metro life, because I was told that the extreme micromanagement of the members and spoils system so obvious in the “Apostolic oversight” was just a problem in the midwest. We had a specific issue that could not be resolved and so the “Apostle” was brought in. Of course, the “apostle” happened to be friends with the pastor. A lot of good that did. That is why elders who are already apart of the church are important. They know the pastor, AND you, so there is no favortism.
I met with a certain pastor at MLC, and told him of my bad experience in CO. Instead of doing to decent, loving thing of actually listening to what I had to say, he stopped me and told me i was gossipping and he didnt want to hear it because it was “unhelpful” Unhelpful to who? Are you afraid of hearing that somehow, SGM MIGHT be doing something wrong. Oh, i forgot, that would be too proud of me.
Betrayed, you said that there were assesment teams. Is SGM changing the apostolic approach, or is that just another way of doing it?
January 15th, 2010 at 12:45 am
Well Hello Hello Hello…Quizzler, It sure was nice to see you around…I do, have a quiz for you.
FSGP well said. Dave Har, and Bob Cough should have stayed a few days and visted around alittle. Of course Joey, the leaders will glady give you THEIR views on anything, and I have found the pastorial views short of honesty, compassion, and integrity. I am effected by the crap at metro, but little boys this havoc reeks all over. Its not very nice what we have lived through at the hands of these scribes and Pharisees.
Quizzler…where oh where…The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works, for they say and do not do.
FOR THEY BIND HEAVY BURDENS, HARD TO BEAR AND LAY THEM ON MENS SHOULDERS BUT THEY THEMSELVES WILL NOT MOVE THEM WITH ONE OF THEIR FINGERS…
SHHH Don’t tell anyone I’m posting again on the website…they don’t like that very much and get nasty with their threats…shhhhh….
January 15th, 2010 at 1:13 am
Lisa, I’m so sorry for your experience in MLC, and in CO. But now that you are in FL, perhaps you can find a local congregation that loves GRACE and Liberty in Christ JESUS, if you contact Jim, or ask where John G. is worshipping.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:07 am
“Betrayed, you said that there were assessment teams. Is SGM changing the apostolic approach, or is that just another way of doing it?”
NO, this is not a change. Pastors=Elders. The assessment team is always different senior pastors from out of state SGM churches that are called in when things stink within the local leadership team. No one in a church Danny Jones over sees will be on that team, however he has long term relationship with those men. Jim Britt used to serve under Danny at MLC and is a part of that team. The assessment thing might be because there are only minimal guys with AP over-site and way too many SGM churches with huge issues at present. I pray that it does not continue, but that is what God is doing right now, cleaning house.
This is an assessment team that will not even be in Orlando. The pastoral staff will be assessed mostly long distance, althoug Dave Harvey will be with us for a marriage retreat at the end of Jan.Again, this is not a change in church gov. or the bringing on of local elders to the church.
Dearest Lisa.. hon my church is not what it was 8 years ago. I have some advise for you I got from someone who left MLC. Run and don’t look back. My heart breaks to have to give any one that advice. Our church is not a healthy place right now, and if you just left an unhealthy SGM church, this would not be the place to come. I have not been able to invite any one here in years because of the legalism and sin focus that has enveloped us as a church.
The response you received would most unfortunately be typical of what is left of our leadership team. If you are at all familiar with Mark Driscoll and The Acts 29 team of churches, <Google them> they are reformed, charismatic, and healthy. I wrote the main church and I have listened to many of the messages from Mark at the Seattle church and
messages from Crosspointe in Winter Park and their sister church in Lake Nona. Depending on where you live I am sure there are other great recommendations as well! The church meets at the YMCA at 1201 N Lakemont in Winter Park at 10 am on Sundays. Give it a shot!
http://www.crosspointewinterpa.....vice-time/ They are having an informal meeting at church with pizza and a time to meet the leadership time and ask questions. Worthy of a visit. The meet and greet details are on the website for Sunday Jan 17 and you can RSVP there.
I am so sorry you are walking into this mess. God is working. Hopefully you did not hit a home group this week. The damage control lines fed to the home group leaders was so back, it was obvious they could not even buy into it.
Run, and don’t look back. I am right on your tail! Hugs sis and find peace in the arms of a loving God who binds up the broken hearted and heals every wound. I am starting to experience that as I say goodbye to what I once loved in my church home.
Welcome to Orlando and thanks for bringing all that cold weather with you!
.
God has a big church. Have faith He will lead you as you follow Him
January 15th, 2010 at 4:48 am
METRO STILL
Seeing you are “still” there as well I would suggest picking up the phone < if you are a member> and calling Todd. Ask very pointed questions and you will get very truthful answers.
No man in his right mind gives up a job, salary, health insurance for his wife < who has to have it> his children, and a mortgage unless he knows he will stand before God for participating in what goes on behind closed doors. <He certainly can not pay for any of those things without a job, right? >I think at SGM we call it not having “Fear of Man” . Todd obviously did not suffer from that with Danny! What Todd has I call integrity and fearing God and not man or in this case the leadership team.
Ask Todd how long he had been asking Dave Harvey to intervene? Ask him what brought him to the place he had to resign? Ask him what specifically he saw as sinful leadership by the other pastors? Ask. Michelle’s parents being ill is one small piece of a very big puzzle.
It is NOT the whole truth.
Do not take the next series of messages on Grace Grace Grace and think there is any change. Change comes from confessing your sin to your church family in public, in detail and then stepping down, even if for a season, not changing the preaching techniques to make the flock feel secure again.
The right thing to do was for Benny and Danny to be honest. Todd resigning may have been a surprise. What led him to feel before God to have to make that decision was not! Metro still, that in itself should speak volumes to you! If as Danny said many times over, it was not over any sin in Todd’s life, then why? Get the CD of the family meeting and listen to it again. The why makes no sense!
Metro Still…pray and approach, press in for real answers and don’t take “we don’t understand ourselves” for an answer. When you get answers from Benny and Danny,then go ask Todd the same questions. You will know the truth then for yourself.
We serve flawed men that are covering there tracks. No different than you or I when we get nailed in sin, but they have a higher calling and will have to answer to God for the flock they cover. We need to serve our leadership and call them to repentance and change. If found to be liars they need to step down and sit in the congregation with the rest of us. Does any one who leads at Metro remember THE SIN OF OMMISION? They need to practice what they preach. Pray for our church.
January 15th, 2010 at 6:19 am
Defended, you think I use SGM-speak? Well, thank you for bringing that humble observation, but I have to speak into your life right now and share with you, (humbly) that your words are shot through with sin because your heart is so deceitfully wicked that you can’t realize that I have been well taught about how my glorious local chuch is the happiest place on earth. I am not a member of the leadership team here at Metro Life Church, but C.J. Mahaney, who leads our family of churches, says that we must obey our leaders and make their jobs a joy, whether we are in meeting at the building or on a date night with our wives, or on the Internet guarding this truth against gossip or slander. Are you tracking with me? (clap, clap, clap) Now make sure that you are in an accountable relationship so you can confess this sin and ask someone to confront you lovingly if they see this again. And don’t forget, for every one look at your sin, take ten looks at CJ!
I guess it’s just an evidence of grace (I actually like THAT phrase) that I can maintain my humor about this. After all, you’ve got to either laugh or cry! (Or both…)
January 15th, 2010 at 6:20 am
Perhaps I should have signed that last comment, MetroStillDeceitfullyWicked.
Nah.
January 15th, 2010 at 6:22 am
METRO STILL
I laughed so hard I feel off the corner of my bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was way too funny!
Let me think…nope..I think you almost covered them all!
January 15th, 2010 at 6:29 am
Betrayed, which ones did I miss? I had them jotted down by initials on a list, but now there are a few I can’t remember. What would LOC or LCS be? (My handwriting was scrawled, so I can’t even remember which one it is.) Or maybe it was supposed to be FOC, which is family of churches. I also can’t remember if I used SIYL in there. Oh yes, that was for “speak into your life.” I bet our kids could guess almost all of these even if we took out the phrases and made it a fill in the blank activity.
If you can’t think of these, be released!
MetroStillLaughs
January 15th, 2010 at 6:35 am
And really, honestly, I mean no disrespect to CJ Mahaney, who really does have some good things to say sometimes. I just find it funny that he is quoted so often and seriously that he seems in the place of Jesus and Scripture to some.
For every one look at my sin, I take ten looks at the empty cross and the empty tomb and remember that Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father, interceding for my victory and preparing a place for me, his Beloved Bride. I am a unique and cherished part of the body of Christ, a new creation, a saint, more than a conqueror, an ambassador carrying forth his heavenly work on earth in the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s real grace. Can anyone say AMEN? Thank you JESUS!
January 15th, 2010 at 7:06 am
Betrayed, I just read your 4:48 AM post. Would you be so kind as to ask Jim for my e-mail address and contact me off the blog? Thanks! ~~ MetroStillWondering
January 15th, 2010 at 8:32 am
Jim quoted SGM, ”In the event of any situation involving one or more local-church leaders suspected of heresy or significant sin/impropriety in sexual, financial, or other significant matters that threaten the unity of the entire church, the church leadership commits to involve the leadership of Sovereign Grace as soon as possible.”
This certainly did not happen in Chesapeake! Esther contacted Gene Emerson as well as CJ, Dave, Steve etc. and NOT ONE OF THEM WOULD HELP HER! However, months later when one of the finance team guys calls Gene Emerson concerning the “3 couples”, he comes down immediately! So let’s see here – one of the sheep, a WOMAN who is a member but has no “position” in the church, is being abused by her husband as well as the pastors calls for help, no one in upper leadership will come and find out whats going on but when a MAN who is on the finance team, is a CG leader, well respected family in the church, etc calls for help, Gene comes running!
It is all a farce! You cannot believe anything “they” say or write! I pray for all those still in – that the blinders will fall off and they will see the TRUTH! I pray that they begin to study JESUS! Maybe, just maybe they will begin to see how far off from the TRUTH this movement has strayed! May God have mercy on us all! For we were all deceived, at least for a time!
January 15th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Fred,
I think you are right. I tend to want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they seem to be willing to do ANYTHING to keep the gears of the machine running. They will wear any mask necessary to keep their “consumer base” intact. I think the membership are beginning to catch on, but the old guard is still well entrenched. As long as they are, as long as power flows from them, only superficial change will occur. I mean the change will be on the outside, the appearance of a willingness to listen, preaching more grace, and giving lip service to the consumer base. They have created a culture of keeping the sheep silent with their “gossip and slander” policies and not being really accountable to anyone. They have mastered blame-shifting and spotlighting when you would dare bring an “observation” to them. I too am glad to be out of it!!!!!
January 15th, 2010 at 9:08 am
Thank your for your words of encouragement, Betrayed. It is good to hear someone who can speak with the spiritual widsom taught in SGM but still see the corruption in the leadership. I forgot to mention that I knew Todd back in the pre-metro days . I assumed he needed some space but it sounds like you’ve already met with him. Should I ask him if he has time to meet or is he too busy right now? If so, can you contact me with his info? I guess you have to ask the Admin guy for more info. I also wanted to ask you if you knew about another SGM amazing leadership mismanagement/coverup that not many people know about that I dont really want to post on here.
Not surprised about the HG leaders, they want to keep their status just as much as the pastors/elders/deacons do;)
God bless you, thank you for your support. Its hard to move down to a new place, assuming you have a home church, and find out you don’t. Good to know I still have friends here even if they were made in unfortunate circumstances.!
January 15th, 2010 at 9:09 am
MetroStill,
ROFL!
Charlie,
I’ll be vwerry vwerry qwiet! LOL! shhhhhhhh!
Welcome Lisa and FSGP!
January 15th, 2010 at 9:56 am
Thanks, Ellie. I do have a subversive side to me.
January 15th, 2010 at 11:31 am
Hi All,
Been out of the loop for awhile — Metro Orlando—we are so saddened to hear of yet another SGM church exposed for their deeds of ’mismanagement’, coverups, and the continuing way of not speaking forth the WHOLE truth. Praying our brothers and sisters there will answer the stirrings of Holy Spirit and awaken….ask questions…seek out Todd….ask questions…listen to the unctions of Holy Spirit when “something” just doesn’t add up or make sense etc etc… Truly, God IS sifting Sovereign Grace Ministries — Keep watch — keep praying—-
Gracie, I hear true grace and the love of Jesus when you write—we pray alongside you,sister,sharing in the burden to pray for our brethren at Metro Orlando.
Quizzler (from your Jan 14 post)—yes, we noticed the Atlanta churchs’ website description of their “elders,pastors” a few months ago. Quite revelatory. The two young pastors there seem to be on the defense and putting their stake in the ground to repel any of the flock to question their management (”pastoring”) . We have been told there has been a large number of people that have recently left that church the past 2 months (and the Atlanta church was small to begin with).
Gods people are saying NO to being mauled by Pharisee-based ‘pastoring’/leadership…and rediscovering the love of the Father God through Jesus Christ…standing in the bloodwashed Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus…as we are on our journey….keeping our eyes on JESUS the Author and finisher of our faith…….
January 15th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Lisa,
I am so glad that you have joined us here and that you will find love and support. I am so thankful that you found out the truth about SGM before you became connected with yet another SGM church. God is so kind to bring revelation and the truth to us in order that we might walk out of SGM and into Jesus – into His freedom and truth!
In an earlier post, you said, “I also wanted to ask you if you knew about another SGM amazing leadership mismanagement/coverup that not many people know about that I dont really want to post on here. “
Lisa, would you consider sharing this cover-up in order to bring light and expose the darkness? Allowing things to remain hidden and covered is how SGM has operated for so many years and continued to control, manipulate and deceive so many. I do not ask this of you out of curiosity. I ask so that light will shine on the darkness and SGM will come to see that they must change. Hopefully at some point the leadership will fall under Holy Spirit conviction and desire to change to be more like Jesus. That is my hope.
January 15th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
MetroStill,
Thank you so much for bringing that! Can I say that we are blessed for how you serve us here at SGM Refuge! Folks, if you have not yet read MetroStill’s post at 619 this morning, let me encourage you to do that now. Extra copies are available at the resource center. You will find much grace in letting his words minister to your soul.
Wow, I’ve joked before at the recurring words and phrases that are used at our SGM church, but hearing that other churches use the same language makes me a little nervous…
January 15th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
One of my initial reactions to this sad situation in Orlando was “Maybe now things will change. Maybe CJ and Company will see this as a wake-up call”. The reality, folks? Ain’t gonna happen.
Look at the fiascoes that are identifiable from last year. The unseating of a former apostle and the implosion of the associated church plant ala Brent and North Carolina. GE’s mishandling of his fiefdom. CJ and DH riding to the rescue of Shankamundo in Gilbert. Pastoral shifts in Colorado. Tremors along the churches perched on SGM’s California fault lines. Metro/Orlando will be only another item on the list 6 months from now, and sadly it won’t be the last.
Go figure; CJ interviews the best and brightest on his blog and asks such penetrating questions as “What are your exercise habits? What sports do you play?” CJ is fiddlin’ while SG churches, his legacy, are burning. Change must start from the top and this ex-SGer doesn’t see or expect it to happen.
Former SG Pastor
January 15th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Hi Ellie! Any snow, yet?
I went to a Wolf Reserve a few weeks ago, and was allowed inside the fence to play with one of the “puppies”. He stands at about five-foot-five when on his hind legs. His head is twice as big as mine. He was raised from birth, so is comfortable with people. I had a blast.
A wolf will let you be a part of his “pack” if you let him lick inside your mouth. If you don’t, his feelings will be hurt and he won’t come back to you unless you take a submissive posture and let him try again. His mouth is pretty clean, actually (My husband would debate you on this – he wouldn’t kiss me for a few days afterwards!). The scary part is when you feel his teeth on your lips. He doesn’t bite but, just like Red Riding Hood said to grandma, “My, what big teeth you have!” , you feel the power of the possibility of those teeth as he is licking you.
My story has a point. You have to put away fear and get very vulnerable to let the wolf include you in his pack. Your defenses are completely down. Other than the handler, there is no one to protect you from the wolf’s teeth should he decide to eat you. I even had to sign a release before going into the pen. I trusted the handler. I trusted that the wolf enjoyed people because he’d been around them since he was a pup. He was also well fed. So, I didn’t feel that I was in a dangerous position as I lay on the ground and let my wolf friend lick my mouth. Except for those dang big teeth.
And the knowledge that there is no such thing as a “tame” wolf. You can’t teach them tricks. They will always be wild at heart. So, going in to the pen is an awesome experience but you must never forget that this is a wild animal.
A controlling church is like the wolf. You must get completely vulnerable in order to be accepted in the pack. Tell your sins. Obey your leaders and be a joy to them. Nothing is sacred as far as your inner life is concerned. Be submissive, serve , don’t stir up the leaders’ ire. Believe me, when you are in a pen with a wolf, you are careful not to act in any way like prey. You don’t play “chase” with a wolf!
If you don’t show due submission to controlling leaders, if you don’t get as vulnerable as they think you should (like confessing sins even in the minutia), you will not be acceptable. You might even hurt their feelings (Oh, how I remember my ex-pastor saying with a sad look on his face, “I’m sorry that you don’t trust me”).
But be warned. Controlling leaders have very sharp teeth. They may seem tame to you but their nature is wild. Their desire to control, to have power, even their misguided idea that they are responsible for our souls makes them dangerous to confront. Be meek and submissive, be vulnerable and weak, and you will be included in their pack. Resist them and they will show their teeth, their true nature, which is to keep you in line. If you don’t, they will walk away from you. You will never be allowed back into their pack ( One friend visited her ex-sgm church and the pastor made it a point to ask her what her purpose was for being there, as though she was some sort of danger to the meeting! Oh brother).
To know if your leader is a wolf, stop being so vulnerable. Resist him a little, with integrity of course. Does he bare his teeth to you? Get his feelings hurt? Turn his back on you and walk away? Believe me, it is best to know who is pastoring you. Remember, there is never such a thing as a tame wolf.
If your pastor responds to your test with love and humility, you probably have a good guy on your side. If he responds like a wolf, run, don’t walk to your nearest exit.
January 15th, 2010 at 1:06 pm
Canary!!! Wow, did that speak loudly. Well written and loaded with powerful truth!! Thank you so much. God’s words flowed from you to us. That word picture is etched forever.
January 15th, 2010 at 1:16 pm
Aw, thanks, G.D. The Lord seems to teach me with animals, like eagles, wolves, dogs, oh, and canaries!!!! We won’t mention the kitty cat…
January 15th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
January 15th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
CJ’s blog today is material from Ken Sande of Peacemakers about pastors being approachable and accountable. What incredible timing! 8-;
Ken writes that churches can under-protect their leaders by “allowing gossip and rumors to spread unchecked, jumping to conclusions about a leader’s guilt, or failing to give him a meaningful opportunity to defend himself.” On the other hand, churches can wrongly over-protect their leaders. “They develop a self-confidence and blind loyalty that compels them to become defensive and automatically ‘circle the wagons’ when a leader is questioned or accused of wrongdoing.” Both approaches are wrong.
January 15th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Hmmm MetroStill, Do ya think CJ is catching on? That there is really trouble in paradise? If he believes what he puts on his blog, why do we still see misuse of authority? Sometimes it is so hard to know what to believe…
January 15th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Lisa,
I also am from Colorado (north Denver church) and moved 2 yrs ago after being there a year after the plant. My exhusband was on staff two years as a “Pastoral Intern” and he was over the Singles. Anyways, I have posted here before, but instead of laying out my story and what I KNOW, I have opened the door to people to talk to me if they want or have any questions. I have been in SGM since 1989 and have been around the block so to say, but left SGM almost a year ago….another story in itself
.
I hope you are doing well in Florida and understand what you have said and symapthize with you. It is a hard thing indeed being indoctrinated with “Indwelling Sin” and then begin the fight to re-train your mind….
If you want to talk, I am very aware of many things from the south church and obviously, the north church, so as to not open a new can of worms and get charged with gossip, we can talk about what we know to be true, our observations concerns and prayers.
Maybe talk soon?
Robyn
robynmarmon5@hotmail.com
January 15th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Canary-
Describing your experience with a wolf brings new meaning to Jesus’ teaching on wolves in sheeps clothing….cool stuff.
January 15th, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Again, covering up information and hiding what has been going on in SGM churches perpetuates the darkness. Exposing the darkness for what it is, is not gossip! It is bringing light to very dark situations which hopefully will stop the wrongdoing! Ephesians 5:11 - Have no fellowship with the darkness, do not participate with it but rather expose it.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Canary,
Wow!
That about covers it…
January 15th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
This is worth reading again….and good advice for all SGM pastors:
“Suggestion for CJ, DH, SS (maybe even BobK) – take care of the sheep this year. Instead of running off to the next conference, take the year and do some real searching on the atrocities happening in your own house. Instead of a new book, another conference, more CDs/MP3s, guest writing a blog, take care of your own. Try some quality checking; contact members, pastor, and staff that have fled the movement over the past couple of years and find out why they really left. Act like you really care about what happens in SG”.
And instead of flattery, answer our questions.
FSGP – you could add Fairfax, VA to that growing list.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
HM – yes; the list goes on and on and on … MarkM was scheduled to do a conference for one of the Callyforny churches last year but he had to be, ah, rescheduled …
In other news, the SG Music guys and gals have been meeting in Orlando. No surprise that in the pic on BobbyK’s blog, ToddT appears to not appear. Or did I just miss him?
Flashback – the big theme at WG09 was passing the baton, handling the legacy. I think this was also addressed by Jared the Younger, He Who Rules Glen Mills, at last year’s pastors conference. Question to CJ/Bob/DH/Shanker/Jared the Younger/and that spunky 17 year old lad who can’t wait to attend PC – is the current state of chaos and discord rippling through your movement really what you want to pass on? Just askin’ …
Former SG Pastor
January 15th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
Any response yet, to your situation, Happymom?
January 15th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Canary said:
“Hmmm MetroStill, Do ya think CJ is catching on? That there is really trouble in paradise? If he believes what he puts on his blog, why do we still see misuse of authority? Sometimes it is so hard to know what to believe…”
One can hope but doubtful. One can say and know the right things to do and be blind that one isn’t doing that himself. Hopefully it is just blindness.
January 15th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Steve240, yes, that is what I was thinking. I’m neive enough to believe people when they say something, and have a hard time sniffing out the deceitful, or the blind, in this case. That is why I try so hard to look at the fruit. It seems to be the only reliable way to discover the truth. In this case, words are cheap-cheap (forgive my little canary humor!).
Hey M.M. you’re right. Funny thing – sheep are so smelly, yet wolves are practically oderless (believe me, I’ve been up close and personal!). There has to be an analogy somewhere in that.
Jim, I was wondering if you are getting any personal email from Metro Lifers who are leaving or thinking of leaving? Is there going to be a bigger fallout in FL? Or do you get the sense that it will all be brushed under the rug and forgotten as time passes? I don’t wish ill on the church there – not at all. I’m trying to understand the magnitude, whether this will be big enough to wake up leaders in the upper chain of command. As in earthquakes – how would you measure this latest distrubance on the Ricter scale?
January 15th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
John Galt wrote earlier that Dorothy, MetroStill/Lurker and I should get in touch. In response, Jim, feel free to give them my e-mail address.
January 15th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
MetroStillDeceitfullyWicked……
please! Don’t hear what I’m not saying!!
January 16th, 2010 at 12:06 am
Canary,
I get more email than I can answer. Usually, when a sgc hits the blog, I hear from people from said sgc.
When something’s big enough to hit the blog, there are people who leave, but nothing has “broken” a sgc yet.
I think this will be like other situations. The machine rolls on…
I’ve been very honest here, sometimes thinking reform is possible, sometimes not.
Right now, I’m in “not” mode. This is one messed up denomination. Leaders poop on the carpet, every once in while another leader sticks their nose in it. The leader says “I’m sorry” after having his nose stuck in his poop, and everyone goes along their merry way, patting themselves on the back for a job well done.
I think in 6-12 months, there will be a lot of pastors patting themselves on the back for a job well done at MLC.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:36 am
Leader pooped on the carpet, I am “confronted for my sin, shunned and other punishments” because I said it stinks and that my family is slipping on the crap.
Other leaders thinks its ok to poop and pee because that is what the leader does.
I think it stinks.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:42 am
Jim – FWIW, I agree.
At Metro expect more comments, off the record, casting Todd in less-than-positive light. Things like he wasn’t submissive, he was proud, he was arrogant, local staff reached out to him, SGM reached out, he had issues, he didn’t floss, he flossed too much, he had indwelling sin this, he had indwelling sin that, he didn’t understand the Gospel, etc etc. There will be some people who leave because Todd left. Local leadership will circle the wagons and obfuscate.
CJ will interview a Reformed/Evangelfish Big Wig and delve into the interviewees secret exercise habits. A SG conference will come and go. A SG album will be released. Dave will preach his Audacious bit somewhere. CJ will cover himself with spittle while sharing a stage with Driscoll or Piper or JMac. Southwest Airlines will name an aircraft after Steve Shank and secretly request more SG church plants and adoptions in the West to bolster corporate profits. Go to the list of churches on the SG website and pick two of them that you are familiar with and one of them that is new to you; one of those 3 names will probably hatch a newer, bigger scandal than MLC by mid year. More of the same.
Former SG Pastor
January 16th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Fred,
I would love to fully explain the situation in detail in hopes that it would brring reform. However, this situation is very serious and unfortunately involves some very Innocent people, (who have left since) and i dont know if posting it in public would put them in a worse situation. If you’d like to contact me, id be happy to talk it over with you in private and get your thoughts on whether at that point you think it would be okay to post. My email address is c.back75@hotmail.com. Talk to you soon;)
“to GOD be the glory, forever and ever…….”
January 16th, 2010 at 10:31 am
mm,
no, they have till the 31st of Jan to answer our questions.
January 16th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Just what is it going to take to fix this situation, restore authentic credibility to the leadership, and bring lasting healing and growth to the body of Christ at Metro Life?
MetroStill asked this question near the beginning of this discussion. Here’s how I would answer it. First of all, it won’t be through carefully worded, SGMese-loaded, flowery messages to the church congregation. It most likely won’t be through a series of sermons on grace given by those who struggle on differing levels with legalism. It won’t be through nebulous, generalized confessions of “sin” by the current leadership that no one really understands or can pin down. All of these approaches, boiled down, are damage control, though the leaders may convince themselves otherwise. These approaches are too shallow. They must look deeper.
What SGM leadership needs, IMO, is to fall on their faces and cry out to God for repentance, asking Him to reveal the roots of this latest upheaval, and staying there until He does. Only then will they be able to fully see their sin for what it is and for the harm it has caused. If I was asked to sum up the problem it would be twofold: an error in the scope of pastoral leadership beyond New Testament principles, and an appalling lack of understanding of the priesthood of every believer. Both of these lead to control, elitism and legalism diametrically opposed to the “laws” of grace.
Then comes Godly sorrow – a rare commodity these days. It is going to hurt. To realize that there was serious error woven into their teachings and doctrines for decades that has caused harm to the sheep, even causing some to become disillusioned with Christianity – it will take real men to face this. They must lie still long enough for the Lord to purge them of their error and teach them the beauty and liberty of grace. They must allow Him to work it deeply into their souls and spirits, redefining and redirecting their lives and ministries.
Then they must take their sins and repentance public. There must be transparency going forward and an end to trying to cover up and hide the mistakes of the past. Look at Paul – he writes the considerable list of his sins and sends it for all the churches to read. That’s because the point of Christianity isn’t how well we can DO it; but how glorious the Lord’s forgiveness and kindness to us ARE.
Then they need to let the sheep go. GO to serve God however He calls them. I’m not talking about closing down all the churches, but rather letting the people of God do what is in their hearts without trying to control them in the name of “overseeing” or ”protecting” them. This will be a huge departure for SGM.
Do you not think these steps, taken in sincereity and bearing genuine fruit, would restore authentic credibility to the leadership, and bring lasting healing and growth to the churches of SGM?
I do not know if these issues have anything to do with the MLC pastor’s departure, but I take Dorothy, Betrayed, and the others here at their word, and suspect that they probably do. It is so very hard for us humans to change. I have found, even in areas where I know I need to change, that I am unable until I show God that I am serious enough to let Him pierce me and then lie still for Him to do the complete work.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Happymom,
Can you imagine being a fly on the wall every time SGM’s little team of lawyers, advisors/mentors, gurus, and who ever meet to discuss the various ”issues?”
If those walls could talk.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Gracie,
Your post above is the best life-giving summary of actions for genuine sorrowful repentance and just SEEING Truth for Sovereign Grace Ministries. I wish I could send a copy to every SGM man in leadership (and their wives)……………..
January 16th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Metro, you said ”
For every one look at my sin, I take ten looks at the empty cross and the empty tomb and remember that Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father, interceding for my victory and preparing a place for me, his Beloved Bride. I am a unique and cherished part of the body of Christ, a new creation, a saint, more than a conqueror, an ambassador carrying forth his heavenly work on earth in the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s real grace. Can anyone say AMEN? Thank you JESUS!”
How did you learn all that at a SGM church??? Good preaching!
January 16th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Julie, thanks for the encouragment. I didn’t get that from an SGM church, but from what I remembered from decades of faith beforehand and from reading widely ever since. I never limited myself to what I find in the church bookstore.
Gracie, well said. The question is, are we all willing to pray fervently too?
January 16th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Gracie….AMEN! That’s all I can say is, AMEN and AMEN!
Sadly a dear friend was suggesting a similar plan to yours in Fairfax, in 1998 or 99, when a certain pastor (initials: Benny) got sent back to PC. Never happened then, and my friend was really only thinking of the Fairfax congregation having such a season of repentance, not all of pdi/sgm.
January 16th, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Amen, Gracie. Well said!
January 16th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
CUT THESE CHURCHES/SGM OFF FINANCIALLY- COMPLETELY- TAKE BACK WHAT GOD STARTED TO BUILD AND PUT THE RIGHT LEADERS IN PLACE- TRUST ME, NO $$$$ AND THESE LEADERS WILL FEEL THE PRESSURE-IT’S THE ONLY THING THEY WILL RESPOND TO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 16th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
Richard,
Absolutely, AMEN!!!!!!
January 16th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
New to the blog. Fellow believers we need to speack up we need to stand up. Call SGM and file a statement of the problem. Take your fellowship back speak with the team menbers that are here to review or felowship.Stop hiding behind fake names on blog ,do you have a fear of these leaders? Stand up is the leadship going to give you time outor send you to bed with no diner. Not here to be rude just want my fellowship we can do this together
January 16th, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Leonard,
How do you know that we have not done that?
Cause we have and so have many before us.
January 16th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
That’s right, Happymom. I’d like to add that there are reasons that some of us post without using our real names. By the way, welcome to the blog, Leonard!
Jim, I’m sorry to hear that you are still doubtful this will lead to reform. I figured you would have a feel for my question with all the emails you are getting. I was hoping this mess would be big enough to promote change. Sigh. Then at least we can still be a place of refuge for those hurting from the fallout.
Wonder what it took to make the leaders of the Shepherding movement in the 70’s repent and seek forgiveness? How did THEY come to see their wrongdoings? Maybe some of them should get involved, seeing as they passed some of their poison on.
Gracie, as usual, your words are heartfelt…:) Have there been any improvements in your family situation? Can we pray for anything specific?
Richard and G.D.,
Speaking of $$$, I read in the book Jim suggested recently, “Revolution”, that 20 years from now, nearly 70% of church goers today will have found another way to fellowship than the tradional way. If this author is to be believed (he has a great track record), then sgm leaders had better have a backup plan for their old age. I’m just saying…
January 16th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Canary,
You know I’m the worst person to give an opinion on reform. My feelings on this issue flip flop on a regular basis.
January 16th, 2010 at 6:55 pm
Leonard,
Welcome to SGM Refuge…………..the voice of freedom and reason.
Since you are new here, you may want to do some homework (there may be a quiz later).
I recommend reading the following threads:
A) Noel’s story (over at survivors)
B) Ester’s story and the follow-up
C) The Chesapeake story
D) The “Your Story” thread
After you have completed this assignment, please get back to us with your suggestions as to how we can better articulate our grievances to the SGM leadership.
N.S.L.B.
January 16th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Hey Canary,
I’m in a pretty good position to comment on the Shepherding/SGM relationship seeing as I made it a specialist subject of study for much of my adult life. My home church that I spent the first 19 years of my life was raised on intense Shepherding principles and my home pastor related directly to Dr Ern Baxter (one of the 5 top Shepherding men of Fort Lauderdale – the others being Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, Don Basham and Derek Prince).
You mentioned; “Wonder what it took to make the leaders of the Shepherding movement in the 70’s repent and seek forgiveness? How did THEY come to see their wrongdoings? Maybe some of them should get involved, seeing as they passed some of their poison on”.
I don’t know the other’s ministry so much but I know that Ern Baxter saw the excesses and authoritarianism that “under-shepherds” that had received their teaching did and was shocked and horrified by that. I don’t think he ever renounced the basic shepherding “principles” but I know that it was the 5 of them being honest enough to admit they were “wrong” and admit that people were being hurt dreadfully by their teaching that resulted in the change.
I can certainly state that SGM base much of their authoritarian teaching from the Shepherding Movement – Larry Tomczak and Mahaney went to a key conference in Kansas in 1975 that was the “pinnacle” of the Shepherding Movement – but I don’t think that there would be any use in any of the Shepherding teachers (only Mumford and Simpson are still alive) getting involved because Mahaney has deliberately distanced SGM from the charismatic teaching that Mumford and Simpson would still believe in. I know Simpson preached at Covenant Life Church back in the 90’s but don’t think he’s been back since.
Ern Baxter died in the 1990’s and I think always had a very gentle spirit and spoke of his life-long regret that their teaching which was meant for the best was abused and he certainly took responsibility for that. I hope that Mahaney, Harvey, Kauflin et al will come to realise the devastating hurt that THEIR teaching has caused and will one day stand up and take responsibility for that.
Hope that’s of some interest – any further “Shepherding” detail don’t hesitate to email!!
January 16th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Canary,
You said, “Wonder what it took to make the leaders of the Shepherding movement in the 70’s repent and seek forgiveness? How did THEY come to see their wrongdoings? Maybe some of them should get involved, seeing as they passed some of their poison on. ”
I was involved in a church in the Shepherding Movement in Florida in the late 70s and early 80s. Leaders in that movement were MUCH less subtle about exercising authority than SGM leaders are now. Their blatant “command and control” tactics hurt a larger percentage of the people much more quickly than what we see in SGM. When enough members left in droves and enough churches ceased to exist, some leaders saw the error of their tactics and publicly repented. I hope SGM never gets to that low point.
Um, actually, one of the pastors still on staff at Metro Life Church was a former leader in a Shepherding Movement church. Hopefully he and others like him will use their influence to prevent repeats of those problems.
January 16th, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Good point SGM Single, but my experience of the UK version of SGM “Command and control” wasn’t really that sutble.
I was given “ultimatums” by a senior SGM pastor who was a few months younger than me and told I had to move out of my flat and move back in with my parents, I was told I had to cut off ALL contact with non-Christian friends and effectively give up my job as a nurse – well … I think “command and control” is EXACTLY the right phrase!
If SGM aren’t at that low point already, they’re heading in that direction.
January 16th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
Thanks, Dan.The info was very useful. It helps to know that the origin of the shepherding movement was not meant to become what it did. I still don’t think those today who have become so controlling mean to harm anyone. They just can’t see beyond themselves and their doctrine. I hope it doesn’t get as bad as empty churches to make these guy see the light. My heart breaks for all those who fell away from the Lord because of shepherding abuse.
Was Gothard a part of it all? I remember attending his conference in the early ’80’s when our church became part of PDI. We were urged to go by our leaders, who seemed to love the Gothard teachings.
SGMsingle,
In the early days when our church became PDI (’82-’83), the control was subtle. By the time we left in 1997, the kid gloves seemed to be off. There was much pressure involved in living up to sgm standards, especially for women. After I found the Survivors site, I was so sad to discover that the same misuse of authority was still going on. If it is still subtle in some churches, it won’t be that way forever, unless reform comes.
Jim, I understand. Hope dies hard. It’s up one moment and down the next. I’m sure there are days when you just want to throw in the towel and shut the blog down. This latest happening at Metro Life is hurting a lot of saints. It’s hard to watch.
January 16th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
My wife and I attend three Bill Gothard seminars in the 70s. I vividly remember his teachings on the umbrella of protection, the “covering!” He taught that God worked His purposes out through those “over” you, your covering, the “umbrella of protection.
I don’t, however, remember a whole lot of emphasis on pastors over laity as a “covering” emphasis like the “Shepherding Movement” did and SGM STILL does.
It made sense to me, especially the part of husbands being over their wives. My wife quickly helped me see the error of my ways, and she was right.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Dan,
I am sorry that pastor treated you like that. Imposing legalism does NOT cure sin! Only knowing the grace of God and the joy of a relationship with Him sets us free from sin. I pray that pastor repents and stops hurting others.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Legalism IS sin. How to you fight sin with sin?
January 16th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
Great point, Jim.
G.D., all that covering stuff turned out to be mere superstition to keep folks in fear, making them obey the leaders. I believe the bible when it says that the head of a wife is her husband, and his head is Christ. I believe that is meant to reveal the love of Christ in a marriage, not to control or make people into doormats. Isn’t it nice to know freedom?!!
January 17th, 2010 at 12:34 am
Gratefully Disillusioned : I look forward to meeting your wife!!
January 17th, 2010 at 3:18 am
Jim-
Your most recent post is one of the more profound statements I have read on this blog…I never thought it about that way-but you are so right!
January 17th, 2010 at 7:45 am
Hi Canary,
Sadly, nothing new with my family as yet. Thank you for asking.
January 17th, 2010 at 7:51 am
Square Peg–:-)
January 17th, 2010 at 11:13 am
A quick note for those interested in the connection between SGM/Mahaney and the Shepherding Movement – I have just discovered a copy of New Wine Magazine (the Shepherding Movement’s magazine) dated August 1986.
C J Mahaney wrote an article for them called; “The Spirit is willing, but …” – 7 steps to self-control.
Seems like even back then he was still preaching similar themes!
January 17th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Julie asked where I learned the gospel of grace. I had answered yesterday about it not being from SGM, but in all fairness (and grace), I want to amend that and give some credit where credit is due. The gospel is being preached at Metro Life, has always been preached, though not necessarily just the way I would want it and not always evident in church life. (Isn’t all of that a constant thread throughout church history, though?) Many can question the motives of our pastors in doing this new series on “Grace > Sin”; I’ve heard some claim it is just a PR attempt and a quick bandaid fix to complaints about legalism. I’m not going to go there. While I clearly see the legalism in our church, I have personally never received anything but grace from our pastors. I know others have had different experiences, especially in counseling, and it grieves me to hear it. There must be a whole lot of crud going on behind the scenes, and I hope it gets worked out quickly and completely. But my point is that I am glad they are doing this grace series, and the truth of the good news is coming through it pretty clear. I rejoice that it is being preached and I’m hoping that it will not only continue, but that it will affect all of the people so much that their minds will be completely renewed and that they will start living it and relating to others in it. Paul himself wrote:
“It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” Philippians 1:15-18
This morning, we sang “Completely Done” by the Bairds of West Coast Revival; they were in town for the SGM worship/songwriters conference so they actually led it. I love this song, and I always have. When I first heard it, I was so glad that SGM actually still had some of this stuff in them because it almost seemed uncharacteristic of them. I sing it at the top of my lungs when I am in my car, hoping somehow that everyone will really get it. If you haven’t listened to it already, you can download it for free from here:
http://www.sovereigngracestore.....4270-02-51 Here is the chorus:
The old is gone, the new has come
What You complete is completely done
We’re heirs with Christ, the victory won
What You complete is completely done
Folks, I don’t know about you, but I’m still hoping for reform and healing at Metro Life. God is still sovereign. There is a purpose in it. I want to be part of the solution.
MetroStill
January 17th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
MetroStill,
Well said.
January 17th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
All my Christian life I have touted how I trust the Lord. I’ve said it, sang it in songs, recommended it to others and truly believed it was a reality for me. Through circumstances of this past year (not related to SGM in any way) I’ve made an alarming discovery - I knew I was supposed to trust the Lord, I knew the right words and outward actions, but in my heart there were areas, some might consider the most important and obvious areas, where it turns out, I was definitely NOT trusting God. If I had encountered others facing the trials I have faced, I would have confidently told them to just trust God. When faced with them myself, I found my trust lacking. It has taken the kind of breaking and repentance that I outlined above to get to the bottom of things. Even now, I know that this is an area of recent weakness that I must guard by abiding in the Lord daily.
I guess this is my concern with a grace series. I do not think it is impossible for God to move, even move mightily, when grace is preached by imperfect men. Otherwise, how would any of us ever have received the message? But as I said, I don’t believe it is likely to bring about the sweeping changes that would be needed for true reform. After decades of the errors in SGM and their confidence that their polity and methods are sound, I am concerned that the leaders there are preaching and singing about grace without it ever being really worked in their hearts. Is that possible? Is it possible to know about God’s grace, talk about it, sing about it, recommend it to others, but never really experience it or dispense it to the degree He desires? I am the first to admit that I do not know their hearts. But in my gut, I think it will take more to get to the bottom of things. And I will be the first one to admit I was wrong should the Spirit of God bring change in another way. With joy!
So yes and amen! Let the word of God’s Grace be preached. Surely it will not return void. My prayer is that those who preach it and those who hear it will know the Truth and be set free.
January 17th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
Dan–was this in Liverpool?
Thanks.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Hey R.T,
My home church – with connections to the Shepherding Movement – was in Dunstable (just north of London) and doesn’t exist anymore (as it was then).
The SGM church I attended was in Bristol and is still very much alive and kicking.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
Just musing on the subject of grace, and it occurs to me that a sudden outpouring of sermons on Christians showing grace to one another is odd. Why was there ever a mindset that grace is something WE mete out to others — it should be a GIVEN that grace is boundless – Christianity 101 — because of the biblical GRACE and MERCY we receive from the Lord. There are people in my life, in and out of SGM, who seem to think it is their job to GRADE everyone on everything. Grace doesn’t grade. It has no end. It’s not going to run out. It doesn’t have to be earned. SGM has rationed grace for a long time, extending it only to those who jump through the hoops of submission to a falsely elevated set of clergy — and rarely showing grace and mercy to the wounded among us. Instead of extending grace to those who’ve disagreed with them — and I’m thinking specifically of a member who left to become a pastor elsewhere — they actually announced to the church that they did not condone/ support this man’s vision and gave the old “woe will come your way now that you’ve left our covering.” The gracious thing to do would’ve been to say, “We love you, and will pray for God’s blessings on your new venture, and your friendship is valuable to us whether or not you’re sharing our umbrella, and here’s a check to help start your new church, and how can we SERVE you??.”
I’ve often heard SGM’ers say, “I just don’t have grace for that,” instead of just saying “I don’t want to do that.” It’s one of the most mis-used words in Christianese. People sing “Amazing Grace” all their lives without ever knowing what the word means. Ok. I’m jumping off the soapbox…
January 17th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Square Peg,
The pastor that wanted to become a pastor elsewhere, was his initials JB?
Get back up on that soapbox; you are on a roll.
January 17th, 2010 at 11:34 pm
No — it was a LONG, long time ago…
January 17th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
I just read through the original post on this thread, and am mystified at the title of a sermon called “Don’t Waste Your Departing.” If that was indeed the correct title, it doesn’t even make sense….even if it were changed to “Don’t Waste Your DepartURE” I’m not sure what it means. Can anybody shed light? Is there a place to hear it online?
January 18th, 2010 at 12:28 am
Hurting MLC member here. In the same place as MetroStill and agree with much of what he/she said. Probably wont comment much here but wanted to let Betrayed know that the attack on Joey was really uncalled for. The beginning questions for him were fine, but calling out his past sinful behavior was out of line. Lets leave the kids out of this. Its called bridling the tongue, self control etc. Fruits of the Spirit. I’m sure you would not like the idiodic things you’ve done in the past broadcast for all to see.
My prayer for all at MLC… FREEDOM!!!!!!!
January 18th, 2010 at 12:34 am
Square Peg,
I seem to recall that it was entitled “don’t waste your departures”.
According to Dave Harvey, he borrowed the idea from the John Piper books “don’t waste your life” and “don’t was your cancer”.
The theme of the message/sermon was how we can waste others’ departures if we don’t see the greater good that God is working through those departures. I don’t recall each bullet point or everything said, but here is an example of one that I sort of recall: You will waste a departure if you believe that it is not ordained by God. The remaining bullet points repeated the “You will waste a departure if you ___”.
You might find it on-line. I heard one member posted it for those who were not able to attend the family meeting but promised to remove it if there was significant traffic.
Not sure if I clarified anything.
January 18th, 2010 at 1:06 am
William Wallace….
I grew up with Joey. He is no kid….. if he wants to put his face in the arena, then he ought to be able to take a punch or two. If not, then act like Brent Detwilers kid Jonathon… Step down and get out of the way between the church and the dad.
For the record…Colateral….. you are correct. Im suprised someone other than me is seeing this change. It happen with Brent. The caregroups leaders got together and forced him to step down.
-DES
January 18th, 2010 at 8:14 am
My thought on the “attack” on Joey is what age was Joey when he allegedly did this to the other kids? Also, if Joey really did this has he confessed and asked forgiveness? That is a big question. If he hasn’t perhaps he is following the example set by most SGM leaders where they rarely confess their “imperfections” despite claiming to be “imperfect.”
On the SGM Survivors blog someone a long time ago posted something along the lines of a “pecking order” with kids in SGM. It was something along the lines that care group leader kids could get away with more than regular member kids and the same went for pastor’s kids over care group leader kids. If there was an altercation or dispute a lot of time the parents rank would be what determined which kids was right and which was at fault. The person even said that care group leader kids would win over a regular parents word at times.
January 18th, 2010 at 8:55 am
For the record, Joey sent me an email last Wednesday, asking me to send his email address to Betrayed. He wanted to apologize and clear some administrative stuff up.
I’m not doing a lot of that-sending email addresses to people.
The best way to communicate offline is to set up a free gmail account, and post the address on the blog, asking the person you want to communicate with to send you a note.
I’d love to facilitate offline discussions, but simply don’t have time. I am very much in favor of direct communication, but just can’t be very helpful.
Gmail is a good way to go. Hotmail is not
January 18th, 2010 at 9:04 am
metro, I can relate a bit to what you mean about SGM preaching grace. Now that I’ve come out from under there are some things I learned during my time there that are now helpful. But they weren’t helpful to me while I was there, because even though they know how to preach grace very well at times, they will always mix in some law at some point, sometimes at the very end of a message, sometimes peppered throughout. The result is the same: grace is nullified. For if I rebuild what I tore down I prove myself a transgressor ( SGM excels at proving themselves and others transgressors, by rebuilding the law system!) A read through Galations will show us that mixing in the law and efforts of our flesh will cause us to fall from grace. The problem in Galatia is the same as the problem in SGM, not that they don’t know how to be saved by faith and preach the gospel for salvation, but when it comes to ‘moving on’ they think it is by law, teaching people how to do good and overcome evil, by working hard in the flesh (they temper this by saying it’s still ‘by grace’ or ‘by the power of the Spirit’). The Spirit was never given to empower us to obey the law, but Jeus came to set us free from the law completely and live in him. Our relationship with God will always ever only be thwarted and quenched when we try to relate to him based on our obedience or spiritual disciplines, etc… we can only relate to him by faith in Jesus’ obedience, his disciplines, his work accomplished. Do we produce good works in our lives? Only after we come to a place of absolute faith in Jesus alone so that he, as our husband, can produce fruit through us by his Spirit in us. It is not our work, we only yeild to his love. Do we obey his ‘commands’? What are his commands? 1 John says his commands are that we believe in the one he sent and love one another! There is only one way to please God and that is to believe in his Son. Every time we are desperately trying to fight our sin we are showing that we don’t think Jesus took care of it. Sin is to be simply thrown off as it gets in our way, it should never produce any semblance of guilt, fear, or shame. There is therefore now no condmenation in Jesus Christ!!!
Jim, great comment on legalism being sin!
January 18th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Julie,
Absolutely!!!!!! That is grace. Grace and law can NOT EVER be co-mingled. They do not mix. That used to drive me nuts too while in SG: one week it was pure grace; then the next week it was some performance, principle, discipline or method to do better, to appease a Father who was already very pleased in the finished work of His Son in our place.
January 18th, 2010 at 9:35 am
In the Jewish faith, boys come of age at thirteen and have a celebration known as “Bar mitzvah” to celebreate their coming of age. Jewish girls however, come of age at twelve in a celebration known as “Bat mitzvah”. The bat mitzvah is very similar to a bar mitzvah.
- Jesus at 12, like every Jewish boy, became a son of the law or servant of the law [pais-Greek] e.g. old enough to start serving God.
- This was Jesus coming of age or Bar Mitzvah.
- Between 12-13 years old a Jewish boy becomes a man.
I wonder if God agrees with OUR culture’s timetable as to when a child becomes an adult? Funny what we pick and choose to “counter” in our culture.
As I look back on my own personal life, I made just as many foolish mistakes and sinned to the same degree in my 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s as I did in my teens.
Even a 3-year-old knows when he’s been unkind.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Steve & Kindred,
My point about the attack on Joey has nothing to do with age. If the story is true then he was wrong, period. I’m sure all of us have done something just as sinful and unkind. My point was Joey is not on the pastoral team, he is the offspring of one of the pastors. If there is going to be talk about whats going on at MLC, it should be about leadership only. The story about Joey added nothing to this blog, it was simply written to embarrass, belittle, and tear down someone who is not part of the problem going on in the MLC office. Hope thats more clear. In the words of my intellectual equal, “thats all I got to say about that.”
FREEDOM!!!!
January 18th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Betrayed said, ” DID YOU EVER REPENT FOR SUCH SELFISHNESS? NO. DID YOUR DAD EVER CORRECT THAT SITUATION, NO. YOU’RE THE PASTORS KID, YOU DO AS YOU PLEASE!”
I kinda saw it as a “the apples don’t fall far from the tree” kind of thing. (Man, knowing that made it even tougher during the parenting years.)
But I see what you’re saying, Wallace.
January 18th, 2010 at 5:10 pm
William-
Can I ask what you are feeling about Todd leaving and the way it has been handled by your pastors?
Peace-mm
January 18th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
William
I don’t know if you can say that what Joey allegedly did has nothing to go on with what is happening at Metro Life. Yes he isn’t in leadership but that he could do and get away with that (again assuming it happened) may show a lot more than you think. It shows how children of SGM leaders are more privledged than regualr members and could also say something about how he was raised by someone on pastoral staff. If neither Joey or his dad corrected what he allegedly did then that says a lot about both.
I also think what age he was when this was allegedly done is certainly a factor also. It would be one thing for an immature boy to do this but as one matures doing this would say a whole lot more. Again his father shouldn’t have lead him to believe he could use his dad’s name and influence to get what he wanted.
On the other hand, all of us have done selfish things that we certainly wouldn’t want shared. So I see your point.
January 18th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Joey’s a big boy, and he’s not shy. If he didn’t throw his weight around based on dad’s position, he should tell betrayed they’re dreaming. If he did, he has some people he needs to talk to.
It wouldn’t be the first time that a PK from MLC acted like the prince (or princess) of Florida.
I’m not saying you did it, Joey, and I appreciate the fact that you wanted to contact betrayed offline. I’m saying that I wouldn’t be shocked if an account of the young royalty of MLC strutting their parent’s stuff were true, because I’ve seen it.
If you have kids their age, you’ve probably seen it too.
Maybe Dave should do a “don’t waste your parent’s last name” message while some of the royal families still have minor children.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:51 pm
“If you have kids their age, you’ve probably seen it too.”
Wow, Jim…you’ve seen it, too?!? Imagine that!
(I’ve seen it in my neck of the woods, too.)
January 18th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
Jim -
All the posts here about MLC support my view that reform within SG is unlikely. Whatever the problems with Todd were, they probably didn’t spring up overnight. The staff on site appear incapable in conflict resolution among themselves; how can they lead the flock? The efforts by DH and BK seem to be too little, too late.
And meanwhile the man identified on the corporate website as “devot[ing] his full attention to Sovereign Grace” mails conflict-resolution-in-a-box to all the churches and blogs helpful insights about Ken Sande’s cardio and strength workouts. SG pastors and leadership will gather at least 3 times in the coming year: prior to and at T4G, around the Next conference (which SG sponsors), and for their Pastors Conference. Can we really expect any substantial change beyond the absence of former pastors/staff who have become fed up and quit and the presence of new PC students?
I predict more of the same.
Regretfully,
Former SG Pastor
January 18th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
FSGP,
How are you doing since leaving sgm? Can you tell your story?
January 18th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Fellow Disillusioned, Damaged, Slighted, Offended, Betrayed, and Wounded:
I can completely understand the sentiments and frustration plaguing you. Please allow me to share my story and wounding from MLC: one time, I was walking through the halls on a Sunday morning, and as I passed by Danny I said, “Good Morning”, and lo-and-behold, he did not respond to me. Clearly he is demon possessed and has no business being the senior pastor of any church.
And if that wasn’t bad enough, I heard a story from a friend of mine at Metro who tried to schedule a 3rd meeting with Benny to discuss how completely inappropriate it is deliver messages which highlight our sinful nature, and it took 3 days just to get past his secretary. Once he was able, the earliest appointment that he could schedule was 4weeks and 7hours away. Which is very difficult for me to understand why it takes so long to get a meeting since the pastors always seem to be able to make time for scheduling missions trips to 5+ countries every other year, and plan youth retreats and events, worship conferences, marriage retreats for the surrounding churches, evangelism and outreach programs, meet with couples whose marriages are in crisis, and every once in a while tend to their families. Clearly by now they should realize that minor offenses far outweigh the practice and implementation of the gospel.
I am just glad that I have finally found a place where I can discuss my problems with sympathetic strangers happy to hide behind cleverly crafted user names, instead of being forced by the Metro hierarchy to approach my grievances in the manner laid out in scripture. Avoiding gossip and slander, second or third hand information, and going directly to the person that has offended me to clear my conscience without expectation of change beyond the work that Christ does in me. I’m glad that I can skip all of the hard work and struggle that is commanded of me in Scripture and instead focus on the parts of Scripture that make it clear that it is acceptable to gather a group of strangers together and manipulate their thinking against the establishment.
Thankfully, now that I have found such a wonderful arena in which to air my frustrations, I can happily plod along in my misery at Metro for the next 5 years searching out every offense or hint of one and cleverly reading into every message and statement made by anyone even remotely connected to leadership, building my case for why Metro and SGM is nothing more than a hotbed of cultist manipulation and belief. Maybe one day, by the grace of God, I will develop the character, courage, and conviction to step out in faith and leave Metro and find a new church home. But, as you can see, I have neither the character nor courage to leave so I resign myself to worthless ramblings on this blog.
Please fellow sheep. Pray for my soul and that of my family. Like all of us, we are in desperate need of a Savior.
January 18th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Good boy, afraid.
You’ve proved many points with your comment.
January 18th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
Afraid,
I suppose you thought that your post was terribly clever.
Sigh.
January 19th, 2010 at 12:14 am
Canary -
Thanks for your questions. I don’t have a short, easy answer to either of them except to say that getting out of SG brought relief for me and my family and we have not regretted leaving. On the plus side, my experience allows me to better empathize with those who have been hurt. On the minus side, though I don’t use a broad brush to cover all of the denomination with my assessment, my experience and observing what has occurred within the movement since I left leaves me skeptical of real reform.
Thanks again,
Former SG Pastor
January 19th, 2010 at 12:17 am
musicman wrote, “Can I ask what you are feeling about Todd leaving and the way it has been handled by your pastors?” A bit confused. I loved Todd, he will be sorely missed. I wont answer the second part of the question in full. The Wed night meeting was weak, but I think it is too early to make a final judgment. I do not doubt Danny’s integrity in the slightest. I believe him to be a humble man of God. I think what happened a few years ago has left him a bit dazed and may have lost sight of what was going on but I think this will be a wake up call. I pray for healing and restoration and have faith that it will happen. I agree with MetroStill’s last post on the 17th and cant say I disagree with Afraid’s post above. I didn’t come here to air my grievances. That will be done with my pastors and fellow members of MLC. Only posted because of the Joey thing which I thought needed to be addressed and appreciate those acknowledged my point. Good night to all. God is great, beer is good and people are crazy…
FREEDOM!!!!
January 19th, 2010 at 12:22 am
Does anyone know that Danny Jones is having memory problems? I am not making a joke, but a serious query to the fact that he is strugling medically with his memory, specifically short term. I have it on a good in-side source. Can anyone confirm???
-DES
It would explain alot.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:52 am
William-
Thanks for your answer… I pray that things become clear for you.
peace-mm
January 19th, 2010 at 7:58 am
Welcome to the blog, Afraid. If you will take the time to read some of our stories, you will see that you are terribly misinformed. Many of us followed God’s Word as best we could in our troubles with SGM, and many of us were surprised to find that we did not receive a Biblical response. You have minimized our trials to a ridiculous degree.
Though I cannot see your heart, it seems unlikely to me that you are here for a real discourse, but probably just to let your zingers fly. However, we would be happy to discuss it further with you should you decide to educate yourself beyond the comments on this one thread. Go to Your Story section and read. Find Esther’s story, Noel’s story, HappyMom’s story here and at SGMsurvivors. Our complaints are far from the ridiculous examples you write in your post.
Praying for you today…
January 19th, 2010 at 8:06 am
A very kind, loving, grace-filled response Gracie!
January 19th, 2010 at 10:04 am
Afraid,
It is quite evident by your post that you have not done your homework! Maybe you have heard of the blog previously and decided to jump in…. I do not know. I do know however, if you had done your homework, if you had researched, asked questions, looked at both sides of the story before making a judgement, you would not have posted such a sarcastic post. The stories here and on survivors are all real, the suffering is real, the abuse is real as well as the control.
As I see it, you have two choices. #1- You can now take the time to study, research, ask questions – in short do your homework. It’s not do late for this option, even after posting on the blog! #2 Stick your head in the sand and make judgements of those who are posting here without information and facts. The choice is yours. God never tells His children to walk around blindly, believing others blindly and making judgements without knowing the facts. Maybe, just maybe if you really want to know the truth, really want to find the truth, you will use the gifts, intellect, discernment, wisdom that God offers to His children. You will choose the first option listed above and find out for yourself the truth of SGM. You may find that your eyes will be open and that you see things in a new and different way. Maybe this is too risky for you, for to do this, you may have to make changes, as in huge changes to your very life! Thinking for oneself does come with a price. Are you willing to pay that price? Count the cost before you make your decision! Believe me, it is a big price but it is very much worth it!
January 19th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Bravo, Fred!
FSGP,
It is good that you and your family do not regret leaving sgm. That must mean that the Lord’s grace has covered you. I am glad you are here. You have a particular vantage point that some of us don’t have, because you were an sgm pastor. I’m sure you have to work through some issues just like the rest of us. We are here for you. Glad you are here for us!
January 19th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Gracie,
I’m sorry there haven’t been any improvements with your “situation”. I’m thinking about you today.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:36 pm
This may be a little off topic, but I do think it has bearing on what some of us oldtimers are experiencing. As someone who has been in SGM since the “People of Destiny Days”, I have seen the changes in the statement of faith. I was talking with someone who has been around longer than me who also is personally acquainted with CJ. This friend stated that CJ has always been reformed…can ayone verify that statement? Thanks.
January 19th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
SueBee,
I joined in ‘81. I don’t think CJ studied enough to be “reformed”, and I still don’t think he does. He prefers to skim books rather than read them. If you remember, the first doctrinal influences were from the “Restoration” movment. I don’t remember any indications of reformed theology in the 70s or early to mid 80s. PDI leadership turned to modern reformed teachers precisely to remedy their lack of doctrinal training, and it has been a slippery slope since then.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
“PDI leadership turned to modern reformed teachers precisely to remedy their lack of doctrinal training, and it has been a slippery slope since then.”
That explains a lot.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
SueBee,
I was in Farifax in the PDI days when Brent came in. I can’t speak for CJ, but Brent and Benny taught more on character, sin, and the need to commit to the local church. I don’t remember hearing anything reformed until Brent pulled out “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” in the mid-90’s. That’s reformed stuff, right?
The change was gradual. That I do know. In the early “restoration” days, tradition seemed to be scorned. That is when the non-denomination groups began (early 70’s?). It seems that leadership has come full circle. Returning to their roots? The TAG meetings with Larry and CJ were ended because they wanted to start local churches, and they felt all us young people should be under someone’s authority. Guess the seeds were already sown.
Hope that is helpful.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:25 pm
To clarify, I don’t see SGM as mainstream reformed. There are plenty of grace-oriented, reformed churches that do not have SGM’s problems. For example, my church adheres to the Belgic confession, but could not be further away from SGM in philospphy of ministry. SGM leadership is enamored with the Puritan Calvinism, which is a historical and cultural phenomenon as much as a doctrinal stream. I once asked a CLC pastor, “What makes you think we can adopt Puritan doctrine without repeating all the same mistakes; are we any better than they were?” When untrained and insecure leaders are influenced by the shepherding movement and then adopt Puritan Calvinism, the result is SGM. In that regard, it is relevant to this post on Metro.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Sue Bee
I read the statement that leadership in the Cleveland former PDI Church wrote about and one of their cited reasons for leaving PDI was their group’s move to Calvinism which is a big pat of being “Reformed.” The PDI statement on this church leaving questioned this claim indicating that they were always Calvinistic which I don’t believe.
One of the reasons Larry Tomczak indicates for leaving PDI was their move toward Calvinism which I think is more true than saying they were Calvinistic from the start. It may have been that Larry didn’t believe in Calvinism and Mahaney did or Mahaney one day read a book on Calvinism and suddenly believed that
Since you have been around a while, I am sure you recall the care groups going through Jerrry Bridges book “Trusting God” which I see was one of the ploys to lead the group gradually into Calvinism.
As I have said before, the group may claim be Calvinistic and believe in a “sovereign grace” but some of their actions seem to indicate they really don’t believe that.
January 19th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Can reformed theology really survive in the midst of a shepherding governmental structure? Isn’t the only solution an eventual implosion, the same as the original Shepherding movement’s implosion?
Reformed or not, it is God’s Church and he’s pretty clear that no other gods (men, or men’s approval, or exaltation of doctrine over Jesus himself) will be tolerated.
January 20th, 2010 at 12:04 am
To All, and specifically to Gracie and Fred, who were kind enough to engage me and allow this discourse.
Forgive me if you found my sarcasm to be offensive or minimizing legitimate offences. The reality is, I have seen these stories, I have read your posts, and quite sincerely, I can sympathize with you and concede that some of the issues you have all experienced may not have been handled appropriately. To be honest with you, I too have personally been offended by someone in each of the four SGM churches where I have been a member, as well as, the Baptist and Catholic churches I have attended over my years. The one thing common to all of these churches, besides myself, is that sinners have led them all.
It seems to me that the issue is not who has offended us or how have we been offended, but how we respond to those offences. Scripture has painted a picture of the Christian life as one of struggle and hardship, not ease and convenience. The Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul spend considerable time in scripture discussing our heart motives and our responses to struggle. The idea of using the World Wide Web to share your grievances with countless strangers, believers and unbelievers alike, seems to be in clear opposition to scripture. And here I am referring to opinions, second or third hand information, uncharitable judgment, evaluations of others motives, and irrelevant comments about others. Recent examples of these would be posts about Joey’s past, comments about Danny’s memory loss, speculation about what Todd’s motives are, or the leadership Team’s motives on how they handled Todd’s resignation, various remarks about the sincerity of pastors who have asked for forgiveness, etc…
Regardless of our doctrinal differences, or church affiliations, the commandment given to us as Christians is to spread the light of the gospel to a dark and fallen world. What does it say to the unbeliever, about the Christian life, when they stumble upon a blog devoted to divisiveness and the tearing down of other believers? Instead of spending huge amounts of time griping over what has been done to us, shouldn’t we be spending our time drawing people to God, wherever He has called them, instead of simply away from somewhere you don’t want to be?
Maybe I am brainwashed, blind, or sheepishly following along so that I don’t have to think for myself, but here is what I have researched and believe.
Definition of Slander: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone; an abusive attack on a person’s character or good name.
Here is what scripture says about slander:
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
Psalm 15:1 O Lord, who shall sojourn in your tent?
Who shall dwell on your holy hill?
2 He who walks blamelessly and does what is right and speaks truth in his heart; 3 who does not slander with his tongue and does no evil to his neighbor, nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
And in the interest of space:
Psalm 101:5
Psalm 140:8-11
Proverbs 10:17-18
Proverbs 30:10
Matthew 15:19
Psalm 101:5
Mark 7:22
Colossians 3:8
What I have not found in scripture (and maybe somebody can enlighten me) is anything that condones this type of behavior in this type of setting. If I were to further research this blog and have my heart and opinions swayed by people I don’t know against men I don’t know, would I myself not be participating in gossip, slander, and uncharitable judgment?
Rather, shouldn’t we, as professed Christians, take our example from Colossians 3:12-17:
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
The central message of the cross preaches reconciliation between a sovereign God and fallen man.
When God exposed my bitterness and resentment over past issues, I found a freedom through forgiveness that has changed my walk with Him profoundly. There is great comfort and joy in focusing on a sovereign and holy God who has overlooked a multitude of my sins. How could I not forgive little when He forgives much?
Peace,
Afraid