Dec
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Jim on December 5th, 2009
The former Sr P of North Denver, who retired, was evaluated, or whatever version you heard had quite the track record.
Now, the very publicly honored new Sr P rides in on his white horse to save the day.
Insiders are aware that this man is potentially dangerous, and some early reports have come in that Glynn’s defective counseling MO hasn’t changed, and the good people of N. Denver are now the unfortunate recipients of Glynn’s “wisdom”.
Would anyone from the wild west like to comment?
December 5th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
I HAVE BEEN OUT OF THE LOOP FOR A WHILE. WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING ON IN DENVER?
December 7th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
The weird thing is that when I was there, in N. Denver, Glynn was the only one on staff that didn’t make me feel like a complete failure. He was the only one I could be real with.
I’d love to get the full up date on what’s going on there now.
December 8th, 2009 at 7:04 pm
There are not enough band aids in the world to cover up what God wants exposed and shouted from the house tops. The Lord loves his children and only wants the best so we can individually and collectively fulfill the purpose for which He created us. It’s time to enter into true worship of all He is doing in the earth, His church and about the coming of His kingdom. Let’s stop looking backwards and look forward with peace in our hearts toward His coming. No matter what is happening in this world, no matter what conspiracy is being planned or war being waged, no matter how many drug dealers and pirates think they are gaining, or how many women and others are being abused inside the church or out of it, we who know Him, know the truth and can trust a sovereign God. Start digging for the promises from His word, get our own lives in order least our sins be shouted from the house tops and start doing what he called us to do with enthusiasm, save souls.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
I can comment of our experience with Glynn. Controlling, demanding, manipulating, legalistic, heavy-handed….need I go on?
I never experienced grace from that man. Not once. Not while he was my pastor. Not while he was visiting my next church after we moved. Not once.
I’ve heard this word about the N Denver church now that Glynn came to save the day: ”DEAD.”
I’ve also heard this: ”Nobody in my family is being fed by the teaching.”
December 9th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Sidney,
That is so sad to hear. Why do believers put up with the leaven? Why do we still go where it is “dead”? Do we not recognize when the Spirit of God has gone from a place? That’s something interesting to think about…
December 9th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Sydney said,
”Controlling, demanding, manipulating, legalistic, heavy-handed….need I go on?
I never experienced grace from that man. Not once. Not while he was my pastor. Not while he was visiting my next church after we moved. Not once.”
If someone had those comments to say about me and my “care” of them, I would be devastated. Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t most Christians? Wouldn’t you try to do everything in your power to investigate and make things right?
How is it possible for them to go on, shuffling pastors around, but not fully owning up to the mess they have created? How can you ignore an indictment like this?
Syndey, I’m sorry for your poor treatment. I have known what it is like, sadly, to be a legalistic, graceless person myself. But God has shown me the beauty and power of His Grace and the marked difference it makes in the life of a believer. I am learning. That’s one reason I chose the name Gracie as my blog identity.
December 9th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Have any of you heard of any leaders approaching offended former members in the name of reconciliation? Maybe of anything being said from the 2009 Leaders’ Conference?
Anymore repurcussions….or fruit…. from the letters sent to CJ?
December 9th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
If someone had those comments to say about me and my “care” of them, I would be devastated. Wouldn’t you? Wouldn’t most Christians? Wouldn’t you try to do everything in your power to investigate and make things right?
Good question, Gracie. I don’t understand how all this can be ignored. Where is the integrity?
December 10th, 2009 at 12:30 am
Gracie, You said:
“Syndey, I’m sorry for your poor treatment. I have known what it is like, sadly, to be a legalistic, graceless person myself. But God has shown me the beauty and power of His Grace and the marked difference it makes in the life of a believer. I am learning. That’s one reason I chose the name Gracie as my blog identity. ”
Amen! I was the same thing. I bought the whole SGM madness through and through. As soon as the Lord removed the scales and I started to realize how I was, I started apologizing to people. Mostly, I’ve had to apologize to those closest to me. I still apologize to my husband all the time when the Lord shows me new stuff.
Praise God for being free from that!!!! Praise God!
Defended: I got a letter from CJ. It was bizarre at best. A modified form letter. If you read my letter to him first and then read his letter to me right after that, you’ll scratch your head and say “did CJ read your letter or did he just stick this form letter in an envelope without reading it?”
Sid
December 10th, 2009 at 5:01 am
My family and I are still trying to revive ourselves after the devastating consequences that Glynn’s counsel had in our lives. I concur with Sydney, but I will also add accusatory, slanderous, filled with pride, and a liar to the list. I never saw a glimpse of humility in him and yet he was hailed in the Gilbert church as being the epitome of humility. We are quite far removed from the hold that SG once had on our lives, but the one thing that continues to haunt me so long after the fact is Glynn’s “counsel” and the damage that it brought about in our family.
I grieve for the Denver church. They can’t possibly know how their foundations are going to be shaken, and they likely won’t notice the cracks in the building until the soil is sifted like sand underneath them – at which point the damage will already have been done. And – in the event that you think I am over dramatizing in my comments I will assure you that I am being as literal as I can be.
December 10th, 2009 at 9:28 am
Sid-thanks for the update of your letter to CJ. One letter writer has had their issue resolved, and others are in process. One thing I didn’t understand about CJ’s response was that some people were called by him immediately, while three of those who sent letters received a letter in response. One of the three is a former regular here, who I’d love to hear from. (subtle hint).
Sid, I’m I correct in what I’m hearing? You received one letter in response and nothing more? I was assured by CJ that those who received a written response from him would be hearing from other pastors.
This whole letter to CJ thing is one reason I’ve been so quiet recently, as I’m waiting for these situations to play out.
December 10th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Speaking of how-many-apostles-does-it-take-to-mess-things up, looks like Dave Harvey is trekking to an SG adoption in California – Wellspring Church. Has there been an undetected “shanking” out there?
December 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
The word in Gilbert is that everything is going to be great now that “the problem” has been removed. How elevating “the problem” to senior pastor and shuffling him off on to a congregation is a solution is beyond me.
December 10th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Interesting that “the problem” was never called “the problem” while he was there. I don’t disagree that he was a huge part of the local “problem”, but it’s just another scapegoat situation if you ask me. Those same people who are now calling Glynn out as being the problem are the same people who sung his praises the loudest when he was there. I think it’s convenient for them. There’s a lot of blame-shifting that goes on in Gilbert. If anything, since we’ve left, I can see it clearer than ever before how disloyal the congregation is, and how very, very easily swayed they are by whatever opinions are handed down through leadership, no matter how much those opinions contradict previous opinions. I’m almost embarrassed for them – except for the fact that I used to be exactly the same way.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Be Bold, {{{{a big hug}}}}
We’re walkin’ the road together, my friend.
Cala, I can’t even respond to that. I am sick. Just totally sick.
December 10th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Be Bold – I agree that it seems disingenuous to call GM the problem now that he is gone. I think all the pastors knew about the problems. I personally told one of the other Pastors of one of our run ins with Glynn – and nothing was done.
But I disagree that the congregation is disloyal. I think the congregation is loyal to a fault – to the leaders. They are sheep that the shepherds are keeping immature, docile and dependant. When the sheep are no longer docile and dependant they are encouraged to leave.
What do you think was/is the main problem at Gilbert, if it is not GM?
December 10th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
My personal experience (as the constant hearer of bad news) confirms Cala’s last comment. The leadership is aware of Glynn’s issues, despite the public praise.
December 10th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
“Speaking of how-many-apostles-does-it-take-to-mess-things up…..”
THAT’S FUNNY!
December 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Cala – I completely agree with you, and when I said disloyal I really should have said fickle I guess. They are definitely loyal to the leadership to a fault, so when the leadership changes their opinion on any particular thing (whether it be a policy or a person) the fickle congregation follow along like blind sheep. So, disloyal to anyone who they may have previously given praise to, but very loyal to the leadership.
As for the pastors knowing the problems. I know that they did as well, but there was never anything done about it. That again points to really bad leadership. How can the pastoral team sit by and watch one of the other pastors give hideous counsel, give heavy handed discipline, and yet give him the reigns to practically run the church. I don’t get it. Were they afraid of him? Were they subservient to him? I heard two members of leadership specifically praise Glynn on more than one occasion, so even if they were aware of his disfunction they were still verbally praising him for his humility (which I found to be repulsive).
As for what I think the main problem is at Gilbert, I suppose I would say that it’s simply it’s affiliation with SGM. I don’t know that there is any one main problem, although on a personal level MY main problem toward the end was specifically with Glynn. But, overall, the entire Gilbert church is drowning in legalism, control, manipulation, false or shallow relationships (although they would strongly argue otherwise – try leaving people!), and leaders who have no problem lying directly to the members as long as it serves to promote the “greater good” within the church.
Sending a known dysfunctional and damaging pastor off to be the senior pastor of another church is really quite unacceptable. Why is it that the sheep in Gilbert (who now “see” that there were issues with Glynn) don’t question why their current leaders saw fit to send him off to CO? Why don’t they question how THAT decision was good and godly leadership? It makes no sense to me. They can all sit around now and nod their heads in agreement that Glynn had major problems, but NO ONE dares to ask Steve, Rich, Trey, etc. WHY they saw fit to send him to be a senior pastor? I’m still scratching my head on that one.
December 10th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
BB writes “Sending a known dysfunctional and damaging pastor off to be the senior pastor of another church is really quite unacceptable”. Not unacceptable within SGM. What are the alternatives? Shuffle him off, de-gift him, or make him a regional apostle. Maybe Glynn can serve his time in CO until the SGM master plan to start 2 or 3 more churches in CA gets underway and then he can faithfully represent SS in the Golden State.
I heard or read recently that SGM was launching in South Korea – anybody else hear that? If that is so that may be why DH is on SS turf in California this coming weekend. Wellspring Church is predominantly Korean, from what I hear. It is also a church that has had female staff and deacons. They had an associate pastor leave unexpectedly last year. Or maybe Dave is going to spread the word on Peacemakers. These guys keep it interesting.
December 10th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Where is Wellspring?
December 10th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Here’s the problem: Steve Shank.
Who taught Glynn: Steve Shank
Who is Glynn JUST like: Steve Shank
Remember, Glynn has been with Steve for years. He’s been his mentor. Glynn is Steve’s protege, isn’t he?
Wondering why the higher ups don’t see this.
They’ll just let him rule his little empire in the west of the country. Messing up so many lives along the way.
BUT, in the end, God blesses those messed up lives. He heals. He restores. I pray that people can get the help they need once they get out of this cult.
December 11th, 2009 at 11:18 am
I shared this on the SGM Survivors and thought I would share this here also. I thought the following word certainly describes what type of people SGM wants:
myrmidon MUR-muh-don; -duhn, noun:
1. (Capitalized) A member of a warlike Thessalian people who followed Achilles on the expedition against Troy.
2. A loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question.
December 11th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
So do we need to start another site for Myrmidons Anonymous?
Former Myrmidons Anonymous?
December 11th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
December 12th, 2009 at 1:30 am
Sidney (and everyone else)
Just Wondering: Why do we always refer to those on the top of the Sovereign Grace Food Chain as the Higher Ups? When actually, they are the lowest of the low.
December 12th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
musicman,
Wellspring is in Pleasanton, CA. More info is at http://www.wellspringsg.org.
(Matt. 10:16)
December 12th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Be Bold,
In your December 10th, 2009 at 6:43 pm post you said:
“Sending a known dysfunctional and damaging pastor off to be the senior pastor of another church is really quite unacceptable. Why is it that the sheep in Gilbert (who now “see” that there were issues with Glynn) don’t question why their current leaders saw fit to send him off to CO? Why don’t they question how THAT decision was good and godly leadership?”
Which leads me to ask: Has anyone heard how it was presented to the people in Gilbert?
GM helped SS, DB, and PP start the church in CO. DB has recently “retired”. Maybe I’m wrong, but there could be plenty of fodder to make his move back sound plausible (until someone actually checks, but who would).
(Matt. 10:16)
December 12th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Wellspring is an adopted church that has had female staff and deacons. It is also a church that is mostly Asian. I’ve heard that SGM has their eyes on a church in South Korea and international expansion is part of Harvey’s responsibility. From contacts within the church it seems that lack of applying Peacemaker priniciples was a cause in some recent member departures; maybe DH will leverage his new PM position (it was hard to write that with a straight face!).
December 13th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Thanks for the info guys….very interesting.
December 14th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
In light of recent and future acquisitions. Does anyone know for sure if GOB/SSCC/CLCC/CLC/PDI/SGM/??? ever planted a single church? This seems like an absurd question since they constantly talk about being church planters. They present themselves as international experts in church planting, but what I have not seen is a new church! It is even questionable whether Larry and C.J. started Gathering of Believers in ‘76 since both TAG and the orignial bible study were started by others. Is there a historian in the house? Certainly, I have never seen a movement violate Romans 15:20 with more regularity while talking about apostlolic ministry and missions. What is more startling is how many of us, (including myself) gave, prayed, and relocated to support a well thought out plan to take over other churches.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Greg,
That’s a good question. I know someone who I can ask.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Thanks. Pasadena may be one they started, although most of the orginal leaders (e.g. Che and Lou) have left.
December 14th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Greg-
If you mean the mothership (CLC)ever planting a church-then I’m pretty sure that Covenant Fellowship of Philadelphia would be the only one that I know of…
December 14th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I thought I had heard once that FCC (Fairfax) was a church plant from G-Burg.
Or did I hear wrong?
December 14th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
The Chesapeake church was a plant out the Ohio church, Denver was out of Chesapeake, etc
December 14th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Farifax was an adopted church. We were once a small group led by Benny Phillips. He met Larry T., and around ‘82-’83, allowed us to be adopted into PDI. Brent came to run things for a while, there was a church split, and the rest is history.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:20 am
thanks, Canary, for the history reminder-lesson. I remember Benny telling that story, now that you mention it. Except for the Brent part. He was already gone when we got there (95).
By the way CLC/So.Denver was a church plant out of Fairfax, about a year after the No.Denver venture, out of Chesapeake.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:23 am
The Atlanta church was a plant out of Orlando, at least the senior pastor came from there. After a time, there was a church split, and the rest is history. Sounds familiar, huh?
December 15th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Greetings,
Groups of church members from what is now CLC were assembled and sent out to the following cities to start churches:
Cleveland Ohio
Philidelphia, Pa
Richmond, Va
Raliegh, NC
Atlanta, Ga
Pasadena, Ca
Frederick, Md
Arlington, Va
Chicago, Ill
December 15th, 2009 at 9:53 am
Is there a point you are making, 30 years?
December 15th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Greg is asking about CLC church plants.
December 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Apostle/Dr Harvey visited a recent plant and and a recent adoption in the San Francisco area recently. At the adoption (Wellspring) he preached a sermon that he has been doing for at least 3 years. This sermon has an introduction that is over 25% of Harvey’s speaking time!
Harvey presented the church with a gift of $2500 from SGM; is this a new practice in SG? This church is not struggling financially. A copy of last year’s budget provided to me by current members shows the pastor’s compensation at over $130K with reimbursed expenses over $10K.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Even though it has been part of SGM for less than two years, Wellspring models the abuse and mismanagement that is rampant within SGM. The pastor there provided key leaders in the church and within SGM with copies of emails from former members. The purpose of providing these emails was to bolster the image of the pastor over that of the ex-members. Copies of the emails were leaked throughout the church. Church leaders and SGM has not done anything to take care of the conflicts besides affirming the pastor by rewarding the church with a check from Dave and CJ. SGM continues to show that they will support bad local leadership over abused church members whenever it is possible and expedient to do so.
This church is a great example of problems with SGM polity discussed on this blog.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I still think it’s strange that SGM touts itself as a church planting movement…what is their average church plant per decade?
Not very high compared to other movements of similar age (Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, etc..)
I’m not saying ever church has to plant a ton of churches-but it still strikes me as funny that they make such a big deal about plants when they do so few of them
December 15th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Out Of SGM,
We should talk. My contact info is on the “About” page.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
This all brings up an interesting point, about how many church plants come out of OTHER churches, besides CLC.
by the way, Gracie, I believe Atlanta was started with Larry T, who had left CLC, gone to Ffx, and then left VA to go and ‘plant’ the Atlanta church. I couldn’t really tell if Atlanta was started out of CLC or not, but I was at the “farewell” meeting of LT leaving for Georgia, so I can’t imagine that a pastor from FL was allowed to have top billing over one of the founders.
But all of this is to ask, how many so-called plants ever really plant another church, besides CLC and possibly Mullery/Fairfax?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Yes Gracie, it all sounds frighteningly familiar. The Fairfax split resulted from protesting members who could actually see what was going on when Brent took over as Sr. Pastor for a temporary testing of Benny’s “gifting” to lead. They saw very early on what it took my husband and I years to understand. I do have to say, to be fair, that the early years were rich with the spirit of God, good teaching, and fellowship. However, the leaven had all ready been introduced. Not until it had grown out of control, strangling our freedom, did we realize we could no longer stay with this organization.
The saints who left in the beginning had the forsight to know something was “off” when we became a PDI church.
December 15th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Got to go a little further back, Defended. One of the associate pastors in Orlando felt led or was approached to start a PDI church plant in Atlanta. The word went out to PDI land and folks came from different places to be a part of this new plant, including a core of folks from Orlando, all of whom we know. Time went by and the new senior pastor of the ATL church from Orlando, who in many ways did NOT fit the PDI mold, was asked to step down for six months for a “sabbatical”. (I don’t recall when exactly this was, but it was around the beginning of renewal.) The Atlanta pastor had seen this pattern before, though it was still early in PDI history, and refused to play their little game of power struggle. There was a dramatic church split. Larry T came down shortly thereafter to clean up the mess and start over with the PDI loyalists.
Larry T’s old SGM church is a couple of miles from my house, as is the church he started when he too was booted, and the church still pastored by the transplanted Orlando pastor. A number of the players in these little dramas we know. It is interesting to me that the early Atlanta church history is still shrouded with confusion. I’m sure they do not include these events in any blurb about the church’s beginnings they might have on their ATL website. However, you can find a comment on the Orlando SGM website about how Orlando folks planted the Atlanta church.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
wow, no wonder you asked if it all sounded familiar!
I guess I stand corrected. We were in Ffx from 95, and I thought the group going with Larry was the churchplant team; what did I know?!
pssst…the so. denver/aurora sgm church has cleaned up its history on its website too. ;o)
December 16th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Thanks 30 years. I thought there was already a group meeting in Cleveland when Larry left DC to go there. I would not know about the others. My general question is what proportion of SGM churches were planted (w/o a pre-existing local group) vs adopted. Fortunately it appears that there have been more plants than I suspected.
December 16th, 2009 at 3:11 am
From what I can gather, the Cleveland church was not planted by PDI/SGM. The church in Cleveland was first known as Crossroads Christian Assembly. It “began as a group of 12 people meeting together in a home in Brunswick, Ohio in 1980. By 1981, this flourishing congregation had grown to 100 members and began to meet in a local elementary school. Because of the increase of membership, additional pastoral leadership from a church in Washington, D.C. relocated to the area to provide support.”
The church is now known as RiverChurch. The above information was taken from its previous website when it was known as WorldView Community Church.
December 16th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I’ve never understood why there are so many name changes within sgm churches. It is hard to keep track…
December 16th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
I thought the official story was that S.Shank went to Cleveland for the “first” church plant years ago…but was that another city in OH?
But Shank was in VA by the time we joined FCC.
should this be a different topic? I’d be very interested in more history of the Cleveland ventures and names.
December 17th, 2009 at 1:21 am
Defended,
here’s some history that was posted from the perspective of a former member of the Ohio church that posted here on the Refuge back in February:
………………………………………
Ohioan
February 6th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Dear Jim and Carole and Regular Contributors,
Wow – I just came across this website recently. I didnt know anything like this existed. Thanks for all you do to help those who have been hurt and disillusioned in SGM churches.
My story is dated now and my wife and I have long since moved on from PDI/SGM. But we still sometimes talk about the great work the Lord started in Cleveland, Ohio through PDI, and how disappointing that we all weren’t able to sustain it.
North Coast Church was one of PDI’s first church plants in Cleveland, Ohio . Larry and Doris Tomczak and a small team came to Larry’s hometown to start a church in the southwest suburbs. My wife was one of the first locals to join up, and she and some of the other single women were discipled by Doris Tomczak while Larry worked with the men. Within a few years, the church had almost 1000 members and was one of the most influential churches in NE Ohio. When I joined in 1984, Steve Shank was the senior pastor and the church was clearly thriving. Larry T. still visited often and his sister and her husband were influential members. The church was made up of mostly young marrieds and hundreds of committed singles. Many singles such as my wife and I lived in singles households. I grew up in a large unchurched family, and my brothers and sisters were amazed at the number of friends we all had. We were convinced we were at the center of what the Lord was doing in Cleveland.
But there were problems behind the scenes. The first Sunday I attended, one of the four pastors announced that he was stepping down from leadership. Steve Shank said that this pastor needed more time to work on his marriage and his calling. The pastor did not seem to agree, as he said the Lord was calling him to Canada. Steve Shank said the other pastors could not lay hands on him and bless his decision.
Soon after, the church announced a new plant in Akron (about an hour south of Cleveland) . Another of the four pastors was sent out to lead that church. But in less than a year the pastor was gone and disillusioned. There is still a SGM church in Akron today, but it has never really grown much after 20 years.
Steve Shank handed off the church to the third pastor, Ken Roberts, in 1985 , and headed off to Virginia Beach to start another PDI work. But Steve and Ken did not see eye-to-eye, and eventually Steve and Dave Harvey asked Ken to step down as senior pastor. Ken Roberts did not agree, and the majority of the pastoral team backed Ken. So in 1994 , the members of NCC received a letter from Ken and the pastors stating that our church was ending its relationship with PDI becuase of doctrinal and leadership differences. Many people such as my wife and I were hurt and confused, and there was no real explanation from either our church or from PDI.
After much prayer, my wife and I decided to leave North Coast Church and started attending the closest PDI church in Akron. Many others left, many stayed at NCC, but long-time friendships were severed. If any of you have experienced a church split, you know how wrenching that can be.
We and many others appealed to Dave Harvey to please not abandon a PDI vision for Cleveland. Enough of us called that Dave agreed to come and meet with us. Several hundred people came to the meeting at a hotel with Dave Harvey and Steve Shank. People hugged and cried and believed God would raise up another great church in Cleveland. But Dave and Steve had a list of criteria before a church could be planted. There would need to be a commitment of support , and the PDI leadership would need to pray about whether they could support a new plant. We were told to wait and pray. Many of us did both, but it was almost 2 years before a decision to plant a Cleveland church was made. Most of the several hundred people at the original meeting, including my wife and I, had moved on to other churches by that time. We eventually left the Akron church because it was too far, and floundered for a few years, but today we are happily plugged in to a CMA church.
I wish the story had a better ending. North Coast Church also suffered after leaving PDI. The name changed, Ken Roberts eventually left, and today it has only a few hundred attenders. The Cleveland SGM church today, like the one in Akron, has remained small without a permanent church building.
There is plenty of blame to go around for the failures here in Cleveland. Leadership could not stay united, and most of us saints did not have the faith to perservere when our world was shaken. But I cant help wonder why the PDI team didn’t see hundreds of people showing up on a winter night from just word of mouth as a clear sign that the Lord still had work for them in Cleveland. And I also wonder why the PDI/SGM and NCC leadership couldn’t work together to save a great church.
But praise the Lord that He is faithful , even when we are weak! Today there are many strong and growing churches in Cleveland. And almost everyone one of them has a few ex NCC members on the road to full healing.
Thanks for reading this long and rambling post.
Blessings to you all!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ohioan
February 7th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Hi FormerSgmer – Thanks for the reply!
To answer your questions.
Yes the former North Coast Church is now called Worldview Community Church. It is much closer in theology to the original PDI movement – i.e. very charismatic and not very calvinistic.
Kenny Roberts left Worldview after his wife tragically died. He now pastors a foursquare church in Minnesota.
I believe the young man you referred to is George Yunis. George was a professional rock band singer before joining NCC and is certainly gifted in the arts. You can possibly still reach him through Worldview.
One of the things that bothered many of the former North Coast Church members who met with Dave Harvey and Steve Shank, is that there was no acknowledgement that the flavor and theology of PDI/SGM had so obviously changed. When Larry Tomczak led the movement, PDI was aligned with restoration and charismatic movements such as Bryn Jones in England, Bob Weiner and the Vineyard. When Larry left and Brent Detwiler took over as primary theologian, there was a palpable change to traditional reformed theology. One can argue the merits of which view is correct, but there needed to at least be integrity and honesty that the movement had changed direction. Dave Harvey was insisting “we haven’t changed our charismatic roots at all “.
You could even see it in the church names. Early churches were called Covenant Life or Covenant Fellowship, now the names are typically Sovereign Grace. I wonder if SGM still offers some of the early teachings of CJ. They would sound so much different from what they are hearing today !
Wherever you are now, I hope you are experiencing God’s grace ! There truly is life abundant after SGM , even if the leadership drops you and close friends stop calling.
December 17th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
I know churches other than CLC do in fact plant. For Florida, there were quite a few:
Daytona (adopted)
Orlando (adopted)
Gainesville (planted out of Orlando)
Titusville (adopted)
Jacksonville (unknown to me)
Miami (planted out of Orlando)
Tallahassee (planted out of Orlando, failed)
Niceville/Crestview (adopted)
St. Petersburg (planted out of Orlando)
Sarasota/Bradenton (planted out of St. Petersburg)
Winter Garden/West Orland0 (planted out of Orlando)
Fort Lauderdale (adopted)
December 17th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Collateral,
Interesting that half the Florida churches are adoptions. I’m not sure what to call Grace in West Orlando, as I think quite a few Metro members were already living there. Before the plant, they had their cute “westside” hand signal thing going on.
The Tallahassee sr p found a home in Niceville. It’ll be interesting to see if Hawkins from Bradenton gets a staff spot in N. Denver.
I think it the old PDI days, they were more reluctant to adopt churches, and Virgo’s NFI picked up some churches in the US.
December 17th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
There was Southside Church of Virginia Beach, and Southside Church of Richmond, both of which were new church plants — neither of which now bears the original name.
December 17th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Jim, Would that be J. Hawkins?
December 17th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
West Orlando was more of a convenience “planting” for those living on the west side of Orlando, and attending Metro Life which is on the north-east side (45 minutes away). Although, there are still some folks that live on the west side that still drive all that way to go to Metro Life. I never understood that.
Canary – No, Scott Hawkins. Former SP of Sarasota/Bradenton.
December 17th, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Canary, was J Hawkins still in VA when you left? Or were you still in VA when he went to NC?
December 17th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Thanks, C.D.
J Hawkins and family moved from VA to NC in 1997, just shortly before we left PDI (in NC).
December 17th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Thanks to Ellie and Ohioan for the history lesson!
An old friend from MI (pre-PDI) was trying to serve or help build with the Cleveland church(es) in 1995, and possibly bridge racial lines but he too, like so many others, got discouraged and left whatever its name was at that time.
December 17th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Ellie,
I was loosely part of SGM during the time of the “plant” to Ohio and then Shank going to VA and then that church leaving PDI. It is always so interesting to me that you can never seem to get the real story from “leadership” of SGM. It’s always some other reason. Some PC type reason.
And I also find it astounding that Shank has been making poor choices for pastors and then going back on his decisions for a very long time.
Why can’t the leaders of SGM see this? Makes one wonder WHY Shank rules his little dynasty in the west…doing what he wants, preaching borrowed teachings and messing up lives everywhere he goes. I just had a silly thought…”hmm. Wonder if Shank has something that the others don’t want out.” Hmm…
Sid
December 19th, 2009 at 3:47 am
Be bold, you said “But, overall, the entire Gilbert church is drowning in legalism, control, manipulation, false or shallow relationships (although they would strongly argue otherwise – try leaving people!), and leaders who have no problem lying directly to the members as long as it serves to promote the “greater good” within the church.” emphasis added
Drama much? These are very strong all-inclusive statements. As part of the Church in question I would correct (yes that naughty “c” word) the notion that we are “drowning in legalism, control, manipulation, false or shallow relationships”
I love the way you’ve framed your argument: Make an unfounded accusation based on opinion and prejudice, and then within the body of the broad, bloated accusation include a caveat that the accused will “strongly argue otherwise“ thus proving his complicity.
So then, it plays out like this:
Veritas Productions Presents:
THE FOLLY OF TRUTH IN AN AGE OF BITTERNESS AND SLANDER
(names changed to protect the innocent)
Act 1 Scene 1
Calluna vulgaris: “The entire Gilbert church is drowning in legalism, control, manipulation, false or shallow relationships”
Chuck : “why Calluna, I’m a member there and I’m not aware of these things among my friends, acquaintances or pastors, I fear I must strongly argue otherwise”
Narrator: “It’s the perfect set-up, in this fairy tale you can watch people spew venom as long as you like, but the moment you open your mouth and say something like “hey, that looks like venom” you have unwittingly become the enemy, now Calluna vulgaris is free to deliver the coups de grace, and thus bring a merciful end to the futility of Chuck’s argument. Historically, it goes something like this:
Calluna vulgaris: “See? See how strongly Chuck argues against the plain truth as I see it? Clearly this means HE IS GUILTY ALONG WITH THE REST’. Do you not see the legalism, the control, the manipulation, clearly born of the false and shallow relationships rampant in the place of which we do not speak. But we must decide if Chuck is a witch.”
Chuck “Pardon?”
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Chuck: “I’m sorry, did you say “witch”?
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Chuck: Again, sorry, burn them?
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Jim:
Sir Bedevere:
Chuck: But, I’m not a witch!
Kris:
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Chuck: “OK, Seriously, a bridge????
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Jim:
Kris:
Calluna vulgaris:
Jim:
Kris:
Calluna vulgaris:
Jim:
Kris:
Narrator: “Enter the wise King Arthur:”
King Arthur:
Chuck: Look, your Highness, just because Chuck rhymes with duck you can’t be saying……
Sir Bedevere:
Calluna vulgaris:
Sir Bedevere:
Jim:
Narrator: So you see children, in this story throwing stones and casting aspersions only led to poor Chuck being drowned in the dunking pond. Perhaps a bit of civility, accuracy and accountability would have saved Chuck. But, I suppose, only a fool would expect such things from fairy tales such as these.
And to all a good night.
Chuck
December 19th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Chuck:
Let me be the first to say: get over yourself.
Hoping the rest of your sophomore year goes well,
Out Of SGM
December 19th, 2009 at 11:11 am
I just used this Monty Python sketch to teach my AP kids about fallacies.
I would agree that Be Bold may be using hyperbole to make a point. Chuck, you are, of course, free to point out that it might be hyperbole because you know of several instances that might indicate otherwise, based on your own sampling.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Chuck,
I’m sorry that you feel persecuted. While I’m not a fan of sweeping statements (”the entire…), there are many who would agree with Be Bold’s main premise. When you have a blog such as this, you interact with many people behind the scenes. I’ve seen Be Bold’s statement verified by multiple eye witnesses.
By many accounts, it does seem that the leadership has been disingenuous. Legalism has infected many sgcs, and Gilbert seems to be among their number. The best way to “test” the depth of relationships within any given church is to leave. If I were you, I’d ask myself how close I am with former members.
Better yet, do a little case study. Tell the leadership that you unfortunately must leave the church because of doctrinal differences. Report back to us in 60 days how deep your former relationships were.
While I won’t broad brush and state that every pastor sees this and does nothing to counteract it, nor will I say that every member of a sgc acts in this way, the practice of dropping former friends (even those who “leave well”) is systemic in sgm. I would call it a distinctive.
SGM should include this in their membership classes. “We believe in building our lives around the church, which is defined as this sgc and the people who meet within these four walls. If you develop relationships here and choose to leave, we will drop you like a rock. Rocks don’t float, just ask Chuck.”
December 19th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Jim,
If your last paragraph applies not only to the church I attend now but also the last church I attended, the last three jobs I’ve had and the last four neighborhoods in which I’ve lived, (and let me assure you it does), how well then is your point made that “another unique part of leaving SGM is that when you leave the church, you leave your relationships behind”?
I mean, from my perspective, this is just part of the human experience. We as Christians like to say that our relationships are based primarily on our common ground at the foot of the cross, but in America at least, it doesn’t really work that way. We cleave to the familiar and the convenient. We prefer to associate with those who not only share our convictions but our common activities as well (homeschooling, music, sports, drama, hobbies etc.) This site is a microcosm of that very phenomenon; here we have a group of people who were once united by their common activities in and enjoyment of SGM (for the sake of Christ and His Church) who are now allied based on their mutual disgust with, distrust of and general hostility toward SGM (for the sake of Christ and His Church).
And Jim, no I don’t feel persecuted, I’m not sure what the exact word is but it lies somewhere along the lines of sorrow, frustration, mild amusement and outrage at good people (I assume) saying bad things.
I guess if I’m the only one who sees it, then to quote the great Western philosopher George Costanza “It’s not you, it’s me.”
Chuck
December 19th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Chuck,
I love your little sketch. I even understand your point of view. While I agree with Jim that a “broad brush” is not a useful tool, sometimes folks here present their experiences as wide sweeping. It is what they saw while a part of sgm.
Your point about relationships is valid. However, we are speaking here of more than changes in friendships, the ones that occur naturally. We are speaking of shunning because one is no longer a part of the group. Specific shunning. Intentional shunning. There are many reports on this blog of saints being deliberately ignored after leaving an sgm church. We are not dealing with a broad brush, here. It has happened too frequently in churches around the U.S. Can you reason this away for us, as you have our “accusations”?
December 19th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Chuck,
Now we’re into personal experience territory, which I think is a recurring theme here.
“Pastor whatshisface is an abusive monster” vs “Pastor whatshisface is the most caring man I know”.
My experience is this, based on the two years after I left my sgc and before I started this blog. The situation is understandable now that the blog is up, but 2 years is a long time. Certainly enough time to make an assessment.
God saved Carole and I in 1982. We attended c1 (church #1) for 2 years, c2 for 7 years, c3 for less than 1 year, c4 for 4 years, c5 for 10 years. C5 was SGM.
We still have friends from c1 and c2. At c3 we didn’t make any friends. C4 split, and those of us who left formed c5. We are friends with 2 couples from c5 (sgc). The husband and I in one couple knew each other in high school, and we became friends with the other couple in c4.
All of our “deep relationships” formed in c5 (sgc) died when we left the building. I’m not crying in my cereal, I’m actually glad to know where we stand.
I’m sorry, but I feel that your analogy falls short. We are talking about the Bride of Christ, for who He died and now lives. Not quite the same as the workplace or the neighborhood.
Re feeling persecuted, I’m sorry. I missed your point, possibly because I’m not familiar with monty python skits or possibly because I’m a little dense. Thank you for clarifying.
I’m only speaking for myself, but I make no apologies for the bad things I say. I have made apologies here for bad things that I have said, because I felt that I went too far.
I still think it’s appropriate and right to say bad things about bad things-even within the church. There is a clear biblical precedent.
December 19th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Sorrow? Frustration? Outrage? Yes, we understand all of those feelings. But no mild amusement. No amusement at all in this situation, I’m afraid. Disgust? Yes. Distrust? Definitely. Hostility? Sometimes. Frankly, I’m feeling a bit hostile at the moment. That is a REAL, human emotion. I believe it is unhealthy to shove it down inside, plaster a smile on my face, and tell myself, “Christians aren’t supposed to be angry, so I’m not angry. I’m not angry…” So, let me deal with my hostility in a healthy manner – by sharing WHY I’m feeling it in a straightforward and rational way. Perhaps there is a really, really good, even justified reason for our ill will toward SGM? Perhaps injustices and unscriptural practices need to be exposed and confronted? So Chuck, this is why I’m feeling a bit hostile at this particular moment in my life:
Directly as a result of our involvement with PDI/SGM, today we have dear family members who are no longer walking with the Lord, and others still in SGM who are so filled with judgment that they do not deem the rest of the family fit to be with. Apparently, this graceless attitude is SGM approved. We have new additions to our family whom we have never met, but everyone in the local SGM “family” knows them well. Yeah, that makes me mad. Especially this time of year. Add to that the fact that there are many, many more with similar stories and heartbreak and voila! Hostile. I don’t want to hit anyone. I don’t want to “gossip or slander.” I want SGM to STOP IT! I want to see a smidgen of humility and godly sorrow from the powers that be in SGM who have facilitated much of our pain. Mostly, I want my family well, whole and together!
If our pain (or even my hostility) which resulted because of some in PDI/SGM, causes even one reader to take notice and make some changes, I am DELIGHTED. If you are not one of them, oh well.
So welcome, Chuck. I hope you and your ENTIRE family have a Merry Christmas. Sadly, SGM has not afforded me that blessing.
December 19th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Gracie,
Thank you. I don’t recall if you and I have interacted before here or not but I am genuinely sorry for the heartache that has resulted from your experience with SGM. I have said before and will say again, the type of thing you describe is simply inexcusable.
My disagreement with what these sites do and how they do it stands on its own merits. I honestly can say “what’s being done on these sites is wrong” and “what was done to you was wrong” with great conviction and without contradiction.
My unsolicited advice is simple and may sound brutish but here it is:
Don’t be bitter.
Don’t give other people that kind of power over you.
Life is hard, I get that. The truth is that while we are not responsible for the actions of others, we are responsible for how we respond to those actions. I will never answer to God for what others do in His name but I will have answer for what I do.
Bitterness is simply us allowing someone to continue to hurt us.
I don’t know how this will come across, but I hope you understand that I truly wish you the best this Christmas and always.
Chuck
December 19th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Well, there you go Gracie, you must feel better now!
December 19th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Chuck,
Gracie’s name is perfect, as she is one of the most grace filled people I know.
She is not bitter. If she was, I would have deleted your post.
You’re bumping the curb, Chuck. In the future, please keep the b word to yourself.
Thanks.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Jim,
Two things:
First, I never said that being “bitter” was an evil, bad, sinful thing. It’s simply a part of living in the shadowlands with which most people are familiar. I know I am.
Second, I forgot that no one here is bitter. Ever.
My bad, sorry.
Chuck
December 19th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Chuck,
First of all, thank you for your sincere expression of sorrow for my family’s bad experiences in PDI/SGM. I truly appreciate it. Your advice that followed is simple, but it begs a question, or as it turns out, a rather long list of questions.
Is it possible to be sad, but not bitter? Is it possible to be angry and not sin? Is it possible to passionately, confidently confront serious error and the leaders who propagate it without “gossiping and slandering”? If the answer is yes, and I definitely believe it is, then why do so many pro-SGMers always assume that bitterness, gossip, slander, etc are at play? Why are those the first “observations” brought? Can you folks see a man’s heart? Can you see mine? Do you have any idea what my relationship with the Lord is like? Are you folks so spiritually discerning that you can decifer my heart from the perceived tone of one blog post?
In an effort to be transparent, I will risk telling you – if I struggle with any sin in regard to SGM, it is not gossip, slander or bitterness; it is impatience. Years are going by, years my family cannot get back, and still the SGM beat goes on. Jim has said there have been good signs, and I believe him, but it has not trickled down to the ones in my own little world. I know the Lord as Redeemer. He can and will turn this for good. I’ve already experienced His wonderful power to redeem with some former SGM family members. But the years continue to pass and my family is still divided.
No, Chuck, you and I have not interacted here, though I have been posting from the beginning. In fact, you must forgive me, for I do not remember you posting here before. I have been through a terrible trial with PDI/SGM, but it was long ago and I am well. You can rest easy that they wield NO POWER over me personally at all. I assure you. I could elaborate if you are interested. Your first post did not shake me and neither has your reply. My frustration lies with loved ones still wounded because of their own more recent SGM trials and loved ones still entrapped in a church that puts itself above family. This ought not be.
My unsolicited advice to you, which I will confide contains no animousity or sarcasm and as much grace as a statement this strong can display: look at the charges and arguments made here for the merits of them, without trying to judge the heart behind them. That’s all you are gifted to do.
Thank you for the holiday wishes. Regardless of the fact that there will be family members missing from our table, we will enter into a great celebration of the astounding visitation of our Lord to earth and to our hearts. He is greatly to be praised!
December 19th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Chuck,
You said “Bitterness is simply us allowing someone to continue to hurt us.” Sorry friend but I must disagree with your definition.
Definitions of bitterness on the Web”:
resentment: a feeling of deep and bitter anger and ill-will
a rough and bitter manner
bitter: the taste experience when quinine or coffee is taken into the mouth
the property of having a harsh unpleasant taste
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Taste (or, more formally, gustation) is a form of direct chemoreception and is one of the traditional five senses. It refers to the ability to detect the flavor of substances such as food, certain minerals, and poisons. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterness
Resentment is the experience of a negative emotion (anger or hatred, for instance) felt as a result of a real or imagined wrong done. Etymologically originates from “ressentir”, French re-, intensive prefix, and sentir “to feel”; from the latin “sentire”. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterness_(emotion)
the quality of having a bitter taste; the quality of feeling bitter; acrimony, resentment
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bitterness
bitter – acrimonious: marked by strong resentment or cynicism; “an acrimonious dispute”; “bitter about the divorce”
bitter – very difficult to accept or bear; “the bitter truth”; “a bitter sorrow”
bitter – acerb: harsh or corrosive in tone; “an acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose”; “a barrage of acid comments”; “her acrid remarks make her many enemies”; “bitter words”; “blistering criticism”; “caustic jokes about political assassination, talk-show hosts and medical ethics”; “a sulfurous …
bitter – expressive of severe grief or regret; “shed bitter tears”
bitter – English term for a dry sharp-tasting ale with strong flavor of hops (usually on draft)
bitter – proceeding from or exhibiting great hostility or animosity; “a bitter struggle”; “bitter enemies”
bitter – causing a sharp and acrid taste experience;”quinine is bitter”
bitter – piercingly: extremely and sharply; “it was bitterly cold”; “bitter cold”
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Webwter’s defines bitter, adjective, (bitterness would be the noun, state of being)
______________________________________________________________
Bitterness in one’s heart does cause that person and others more pain but that is not what bitterness is. Bitterness is the result of unforgiveness one harbors in their heart towards someone who they believe has wronged them or hurt them. It results in a bitter root and as the Bible says, many are defiled because of it. Bitterness is a poison and can destroy the very one who harbors it.
Most on this blog are not bitter. Yes they have been hurt but that is not why they are writing here. Some are writing as part of their healing. Others are writing here to warn those who are still in SGM or are thinking about visiting an SGM church. Ephesians 5:11 “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.”
December 19th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Chuck,
I’m not saying that no one here is bitter. I’m saying that Gracie is not. I’m sure that some who post here are.
For that reason, I request that guests don’t tell other guests that they’re bitter. First off, it’s assigning motive, which I hope we all agree is wrong. I hope you understand the difference between actions and motive. Secondly, it’s something that you never say to a person struggling with bitterness. It’s one of the few sins where it’s best to not directly address it by name.
Either way, it’s one of the few things that I don’t allow here. You can call me anything you like, but it’s best to leave the b word out of the conversation when addressing other guests.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Jim,
Thank you for your kind words.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Gracie,
I would love to give you a big hug. What you are describing is the shunning that so many have had to deal with. For you it is so up close and personal. Too many families have been hurt and separated by the same thing your family is experiencing. I knew some of L. Tomzac’s family, and saw them split apart. Those of the family who left sgm were shunned by those who stayed. I don’t know if reconciliation has ever happened. This was not the only family I saw torn apart.
Chuck lacks empathy because he has never had a family member shun him for leaving sgm (that we know of!). Anyway, I get you, Gracie. That’s why I think you need a big hug. I’m praying for you.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Hey Jim, you may already be aware, but my response to Chuck is in moderation. Thanks!
December 19th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Oh, I’m totally bitter, not gonna lie.
Chuck, there is so much to say in response to your recent posts, but time is short. However, I did want to come quickly to address two things. First, your frustration with my sweeping comments. I apologize if you could not see the trees through the “drama”. So, I concede. Is there a genuine friendship to be found within the walls of the Gilbert SGC? Sure. Did I think that I had many of them when I was there? Yes. Do I continue to enjoy a single one of them? One. Although it has drastically changed from a familiar friendship (doin’ life together, to coin an sgm phrase) to occasional phone calls, although I will concede that I believe it is still genuine. I’ll be honest, I didn’t even read through your whole little saga, so I certainly hope it wasn’t intended just for me, I bore of those things easily. But, I will say, that my comments were not meant to set anyone up, I was merely speaking (as I believe Canary or Jim said) from what I’ve observed through my own experience and through the experiences of many of my friends who have left.
On another note – you commented that, ”We prefer to associate with those who not only share our convictions but our common activities as well (homeschooling, music, sports, drama, hobbies etc.)”
I wonder Chuck, what does leaving a particular body have to do with leaving behind one’s convictions or common activities? Furthermore, if I am to believe that the lack of fellowship that I’ve experienced with my sgm “friends” since leaving is simply due to the fact that we are no longer “convenient” or “familiar” to them, then am I to assume that the fact that I have TWO Christmas cards from my sgm “friends” on my fridge as opposed to the 40 or 50 that I’ve had in previous years is simply a coincidence?
Apparently, I’m not even card worthy anymore. Bitter? Sure. But, that’s quite honestly because of the fact that leaving that place meant losing people that I dearly loved. You’d be bitter too Chuck. Trust me.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
I also wanted to add that I just now read Jim’s 6:37pm post about bitterness being a sin. I firmly agree with that. I will be the first to admit that my bitterness for SGM is in fact rooted in sin. However, and perhaps it makes no difference whatsoever, but my bitterness is toward an organization and not an individual person. I believe that there are many sinful, wrong, even wicked things that go on in the leadership of SGM, but I believe it is propagated within the confines of a dysfunctional organization. And that organization is where my bitterness is directed. An organization that stripped my life of people that I loved and lived life with for years and years through it’s cultic teachings and unbiblical practices.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Be Bold,
Here’s a hug for you too! [[[[]]]]] Let’s face it – unless Chuck and those like him go through what we have, he (they) will never get it.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Gracie, in regards to your 6:35, BRAVO!
December 19th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
You keep on huggin’, Canary
December 19th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Wish the hugs could be in person!
December 19th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Her hugs are pretty spectacular, aren’t they? Just wish I could get one in person. Thank you Canary! You have been a friend to me.
Be Bold,
Thank you for your transparency here. I understand. You are in our prayers.
December 20th, 2009 at 3:19 am
Gracie,
Thank you for your kind response. In your advice you laid out what has been my general motivation since I began paying attention here.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I’m not the typical SGM defender.
Oh and Be Bold, BTW, here at Casa Chuck the card count so far this year is 4, as opposed to the 20-30 from years past. It’s not just you.
And Jim, from your earlier comment (11:34am) where you suggested that the material for the new members class be amended to include “Rocks don’t float, just ask Chuck.”
I can’t take credit for that. In the narrative it was Kris who made that profound observation, Chuck was busy being drowned.
Again, to all a good night
Chuck
December 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Gracie,
December 20th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
My early comment was just that the Glynn I knew isn’t the one being talked about now. I’m totally confident in the abilities of SGM leadership to totally screw up a man. I still have aftershocks of surprise when people in my current church just accept me for me and don’t try to make me over into Carolyn-bots, Janis-bots or whatever-pastor’s-wife-is-in-vogue-bots.
What makes me so completely sad is that I still have friends bound by this insanity. Gah.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:27 am
Canary,
“ I knew some of L. Tomzac’s family, and saw them split apart. Those of the family who left sgm were shunned by those who stayed. I don’t know if reconciliation has ever happened.”
Larry Tomczak’s in-laws are living in Charlotte and attending the SGM church there along with Larry and Marilyn Malament. A couple of years ago I had the opportunity to speak to Anne Grefenstette (Larry’s mother-in-law) and her comment was that she and her husband were repentant for ever breaking with her family in SGM. She said it was out of pride that the split happened. Interesting, no?
December 21st, 2009 at 9:29 am
I think the older we get the more we see that things aren’t always as they appear. We don’t really know the hearts of other people. Only God does. We only know what we hear and see but sometimes that isn’t enough to make judgments on.
December 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Mack,
I wasn’t making a judgment, only stating facts. Thanks for filling in the blanks. I wonder, though, how Larry and Doris are treated because they aren’t in sgm? I know they were shunned for a while. I hope they have been reconciled with their family too, as I know personally that it was not their decision to be on the outs with friends and family in sgm. It is good to hear that Ann G. is doing well. I remember her as being a very sweet woman. It gladdens the heart to know that she is with her family in Charlotte.
The point is, the family shunning did happen because members left sgm. That is not a judgment of someone’s heart, just a simple fact. I think you should ask yourself why this sort of thing happened in the first place, why it happens to others in sgm, and why it is happening to our sweet Gracie right this very second? Think on that, if you have the courage.
While my husband and I were in PDI (we were there for nearly 17 years), we eventually treated sgm as our family, leaving our true family members out of our lives. There was such a mindset that all our time and attention should be given to “the church”. We were obligated to serve and attend meetings. It was ingrained in us by leadership that you did not miss these things, that to do so would be a lack of commitment. Who had time for anything or anyone else? The guilt trip I would go on if I missed a meeting due to a sick child was poisonous. I left a friend in a crisis because my cg leader would not “release” me from attending a woman’s meeting. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
One of my husband’s family members went through cancer without us doing more than calling occasionally to see how she was. It was as though we were in some sort of fog, that the real world outside of sgm existed far, far away. My dad died of cancer without me seeing him to say goodbye, because I didn’t rush to see him when I first heard the news. My sister’s husband suffered for years with cancer, and I never went to help her out. I look at this today and wonder, “Where the hell was my brain? Where was my heart?” Neither were working well while I was under a controlling leadership.
I do take some of the blame for this ever happening to me. I made choices, ignorant though they were, to believe that these holy men knew how to please the Lord better than I ever could, and that to follow them would make me holy. They put those beliefs in my head. They made me focus so much on my own “sin” that I could not think of others the way I should. It would have pleased Jesus more if I had extended His love to my suffering family members, even if it meant lowering my commitment to church and church members. I will carry this regret with me always.
Now that my husband and I are free of controlling leadership (13 years – only 13? Wow, so much has happened!), the fog has lifted. We have the love of Christ in our hearts for family. They are dear to us. They are our responsibility to care for. We have moved my Mom here with us because she is elderly and needs us. We are constantly in touch with my husband’s mom, who lost her husband last year. We understand clearly now that our mission in living the gospel has to be towards our kin. Otherwise, how real can it be in us?
I have spoken of my own experience so you can not use the “don’t judge other’s hearts” excuse again. My heart is mine to judge and, while a part of sgm, it was in a very bad way near those last days of membership. I was a Pharisee. I, in trying to please the Lord by following the rules of leadership, actually disappointed Him. He forgave me, then taught me what real love is all about. His love. His way. He filled me with a faith that I never had before. He took me through trials of fire, showing me that, one day, I would stand before God with only Jesus next to me (no Brent, no Jenny, no leader at all!). There I would stand or fall according to my own faith, and because of Jesus, my Elder Brother.
Sorry for the length of this post. I just had to stand up for our Gracie and for all the other families out there who have experienced deep pain at seeing family members pulled away from them by the ridiculous elitism of places like sgm. I hope Jim is right, that things are beginning to change. I pray that is so, with all the love in my heart.
December 21st, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I hope that those who have read my few posts know that I have tried to be even-handed in my comments, and that I am all about moving on. I have yet to disagree publicly with any post on this site, but I’d like to comment on Chuck’s statement, “We prefer to associate with those who not only share our convictions but our common activities as well (homeschooling, music, sports, drama, hobbies etc.)”
Yes, that preference is human nature, but it is not a Christian virtue. For Christ, who had nothing in common with us, his motivation to associate with us was based solely on His love for us. He took on our form and invited us to spend our lives with Him. We should not excuse ourselves when we neglect to care for those who do not believe, behave, or do church as we do. On the contrary, Paul modeled Christ in losing himself and becoming like others in order to win them.
What you have described is herd mentality, and it is sin. “You can be part of us if you believe and behave as we do.” That is the very reasoning that has hurt so many people. Furthermore, what many former SGMers have experienced is not just the negligence of not actively pursuing those who no longer show up at meetings, but deliberate, rationalized, shunning, motivated by pride. I have not experienced that, but I will never question or minimize the pain of those who have experienced it.
I’d like to posit that daily Christian life should be the exact opposite of association by commonality. So, what do I do about:
The guy standing in front of the grocery store with a sign saying, “Laid off – out of food” Gosh, no one at SGM would ever be caught dead doing that. Turns out, the guy is a solid believer who prayed with his wife before going out,
A former SGMer from my Care Group who moved away ten years ago, divorced her husband, remarried, and is now attending a Catholic church? She just happens to be one of my most loyal friends,
The Iranian man who has been my friend for 20 years, but has yet to convert,
My neighbors, who are believers, but not charismatic. They’re probably not even reformed! Yet, when I was unemployed, they were among the first to help,
The African pastor who wants me to come next year to help him plant a church in an unreached area. He works primarily with Word of Faith type ministries which I strongly disagree with. Yet, this man is a true apostle and closer to me than a brother,
My son, who struggled in Christian private school and is now thriving spiritually and academically in a public school,
You see, Chuck, these are the people I am doing life with, my heroes. The mentality you have described is a lack of love, that sickening, selfish, lack of Christ passion that is at the core of the insularity and impotence of the American church. I am not saying you approve of that, but it does need to be confronted.
I used to be at the center of church life at SGM. These days, I’m not experiencing much friendship with the people in my church that I should have the most in common with. Why is that? Most of my relationships are out side of the of the church. It’s painful, and it’s challenging, but just maybe it’s the heart of Jesus, Emanuel, for me.
Merry Christmas
December 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Greg,
Excellent, excellent post! I wish I could have said it the way you did. What you are experiencing in your life is what is happening in me and my family’s lives. We are friends with all types of people. Sadly, some of our unbelieving friends know how to love more than Christians we know. But our heart is ALWAYS to leave the fragrance of Christ wherever we go.
Your post has inspired me to keep going the way I know is right – sharing the love of Jesus with whomever comes my way, with no conditions. I wish Jim would make your post a new forum of its own. It well deserves it!
December 21st, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Greg,
Bravo! YOU, my friend, are living as Jesus called you to!
Thank you for this excellent comment. I think EVERY SGM member needs to hear this. As an ex-member…I know this mentality all too well. I lived it…I WAS it….and I am so ashamed for being that.
I’m sure when we were walking out life together (remember…you and my hubby were roomies before we got married) for that short time, I’m certain I judged you quietly because you weren’t like this.
Now, I see that I should have been spurred on to righteousness by your example. I was so blind. I was NOT living the Gospel. I was being taught a false gospel.
Praise God for freedom! And praise God he’s so patient to show us these things so that we won’t keep making the same mistake.
Sid
December 21st, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Greg,
I too applaud your words because they are TRUE!!!!!! You nailed it, perfectly. I too am where you are brother. The “church” machine, the business, the it, the thing that collects money and stuffs itself with it gathers in its four walls (many many more today) and performs it programs while the world laughs at its ineptitude and agenda. In the meantime the CHURCH, Christ’s BODY, those jars of clay whose only value is the treasure within, infiltrate their Father’s world with the message of pure grace because the LIFE within them cannot be hidden or contained or subdued.
Thanks for writing those words of LIFE and TRUTH that come from HIS LIFE manifesting itself out through you!
December 21st, 2009 at 5:46 pm
In the last year, I was visiting my family in G’Burg and, of course, made my obligatory visits to CLC. On the first Sunday there, Josh was talking about our neighbors or something.
Well, I was astounded to hear Josh say that statistics are showing that many more people are going to church during the recession.
Josh LAUGHED! He was APPALLED that people don’t go to church ALL the time, but they seek God when life hurts.
WHY isn’t the response “PRAISE GOD! Maybe we have some opportunity to share the love of Jesus to hurting people! In fact let’s get teams together to go out into our city and FIND PEOPLE who need to hear the Gospel right now!”
Come on, Josh! Why can’t you see it as God setting up things so that people will see their NEED for him??? Why is it this elitist response of “DUH! You should be going to church ALL the time, not just when it hurts!”
December 21st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Thanks Sid,
If I remember your real name correctly, I will always be grateful to your husband for taking me in when I got back from Central Asia, broke, sick with Hepatitis, and spurned by leadership. That act of hospitality and his help in finding another church probably saved my walk.
December 21st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Yes, Greg…
You got it! (And I just shared your comment with him…he is flabbergasted that what he did had such an impact in your life. Praise God that he was NEVER fully “assimilated” in SGM!!!)
Sid
December 22nd, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Greg,
I am so sorry you were left in that state after returning from Central Asia. I have always appreciated you as an example of a Christian who even put yourself in danger to share the Good News of Jesus Christ. It was also very obvious the way you would deviate from the typical expected CGL patterns to genuinely care for God’s people. Thanks!
Your example is one I follow by befriending the needy people on the fringe of SGM. There are many. Often they have, for whatever reason, not been helped by SGM pastors, so I try to point them to God. I pray that more people in SGM will remember your example and follow it!
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Wow, SGMSingle…you’ve been around SGM a long time. You’re still at your SGM church? (I see your comments from time to time, but there are so many people contributing to blogs that I can’t remember who’s who…)
Sid
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Sid,
Yes, I am still in a SGM church, but I have moved to a different city. I am no longer in CLC where I knew Greg.
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:19 am
Greg, Jim, and all others:
I may have been a little unclear in the post from December 19th that elicited your comments:
“We as Christians like to say that our relationships are based primarily on our common ground at the foot of the cross, but in America at least, it doesn’t really work that way. We cleave to the familiar and the convenient. We prefer to associate with those who not only share our convictions but our common activities as well (homeschooling, music, sports, drama, hobbies etc.)”
It wasn’t my intent to imply that this normative facet of human existence is good (or bad for that matter, although clearly it is) but rather that, functionally, this is how it works, most everywhere, most all the time. That part of my comment was by way of observation based on 40 plus years walking alongside my fellow hairless monkeys. It just is what it is. Yes Greg you are correct, it is not a Christian virtue, I didn’t mean to communicate it as being virtuous, right or good. I simply meant it as an observation of the contrast between what we say that we believe as Christians and how we live it out. That quiet hypocrisy that dwells in the hearts of men and does much damage both within and without.
Chuck
December 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 am
Chuck & Co.:
I understand what you are saying, but here’s my two cents:
Part of the problem is that this “quiet hypocrisy that dwells in the hearts of men and does much damage both within and without” you described isn’t being dealt with either corporately or individually. It is no less than a cancer that has, is, and will at worst kill and at best severely scar anything good that comes from SGM…period, end of story. The truth and the Gospel should never be so complicated that it stifles the simple removal of ill practices that have produced ill shepherds, ill sheep and thus an ill Bride. Bottom line, that’s the nitty-gritty of what we are talking about on these blogs. Spiritual illness that destroys. To call it anything else is and to shrug our shoulders is like all of us trying to play tiddly-winks with our butt cheeks.*
I’m glad there has been some positive results from the correspondence on some fronts, but some of the stories I’ve read since I’ve been away–and I have no reason whatsoever to not take the word of anyone here over that of anyone else who is a Christian–indicate more sandbagging.
This is especially disappointing to many who have stuck their necks out–like me–who have families in the church that further complicate matters when calling for reform.
I am really, really frustrated right now (and Chuck, don’t take any of this personal as it’s honestly not directed at you; I have to air this). How can shedding crap and simply embracing the truth be so difficult for us?
Moreover, I have this seemingly insane vision of staying and doing what I can to facilitate and encourage change in SGM, because I got it in my head that the heart of the Reformation is to wholly embrace justification by faith and to put an end once and for all to any type of legalistic man-pleasing performance-based garbage. Hearts are not transformed by punch lists; they’re transformed by the Gospel!
When Luther was asked what would be given to the people now that they didn’t have the relics and rituals and stuff and volumes and things and trinkets and such, he responded, “give them Christ.” We are not going to make it with lists and ham-fisted bullet points and the endless array of voices telling the sheep who, what, where, when and how to think and worship. Through His Spirit and His Word, God is sufficient. Give us Christ.
It’s time all of us fell on our faces.
-John W.
*-John Candy was the author of the tiddly-wink/butt cheek sentiment in “Planes, Trains and Automobiles.” This probably won’t make everyone’s top ten list of edifying movies. Oh well.
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:59 am
“Shedding crap and embracing Truth.” I think that will be my New Year’s Resolution.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:21 am
PK and all.
I understand that this is a site about SGM, but not every word in every post here is exclusively about SGM. My statements 2 posts back are about everyone, everywhere. About the human condition generally, now these comments do apply to people in SGM simply because they are people, it has nothing to do with SGM.
PK, remember, “simul sanctus et peccator”.
Chuck
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:39 am
Chuck,
In your 11:21, you are correct that it does apply to many people even outside SGM, but my experience was that SGM tremendously fosters and encourages people to associate exclusively with the SGM family. While they may give lip service to phrases like “we are not the only church”, everything points to them being the only church. Anything outside the church is quietly pushed aside. Only a choice few outside ministries/associations are accepted (CBMW, Desiring God). No Promise Keepers, no Women of Faith, no Young Life, etc. Everything is kept in-house and while they may also give lip-service to reaching out, there is substantially more teaching on being careful who you associate with because you may follow their example and fall into sin. SGM christians were welcome, but others were viewed with caution. Very cult-like behaviour.
December 23rd, 2009 at 11:57 am
Wow, a big thank you to be Bold for his transparency in admitting bitterness. I also struggle with bitterness over my time in SGM. I feel that my years there were a total waste and that it has done much damage to my family (Ok, yes, I know that God is sovereign and he had a purpose in us being there). While I am thankful for the Lord leading us to a truly grace-filled church, I still struggle – a LOT.
Has anyone who struggled with bitterness over their time at SGM overcome it? Any hints, tips, suggestions?
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Walking Wounded,
What you said is what I was trying to explain in my earlier post.
Everything is kept in-house and while they may also give lip-service to reaching out, there is substantially more teaching on being careful who you associate with because you may follow their example and fall into sin. SGM christians were welcome, but others were viewed with caution. Very cult-like behaviour.
This is the “fog” I was talking about. It keeps us from fully seeing the existence of a hurting humanity outside the church membership roster, even our own families. We are so preoccupied with our sin and our church that the love of Jesus is strangled out of us.
I hope one day that you will be able to change your name from “Walking Wounded” to “Standing Strong”, or something like that. I know the Lord must be doing wonderful things in your life. I can tell by your post that you understand what a lot of us have been through.
To all the saints on the Refuge: here is a Christmas present. There is a book from Amazon called “Jesus Wept”, by Bruce Marchiano. He is the actor who portrayed Jesus in the Matthew video. His insights into the love of Jesus are simply amazing. Seems like the perfect book for the subject we are discussing. Anyway, Merry Christmas everyone!
Thanks again, Jim and Carole, for running this site. Hope your New Year is extra special.
December 23rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Walking Wounded,
I wrote my above post before reading your 11:57. Yes, bitterness can be overcome. Though many here have been severely wounded, we are each in the process of moving on. It is the love of Jesus that helps the anger and bitterness to disolve into compassion. Press on in knowing our Elder Brother, in understanding the true nature of our God. He suffered way more than we ever will, yet His love never fails. He can teach us this, putting His own love into our hearts. It is a beautiful thing.
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Re bitterness…
I’m not going to address anyone specifically, although I commend those who have shared their heart here.
There is no magic bullet. I would guess that most of us have heard the standard advice, which is helpful and biblical. Bitterness is not an “amputation” sin, such as adultery. You can’t say to someone who is bitter, “listen, you can never experience this feeling again. This ends today. You’re going to knock it off NOW, and I’m going to help you do it.” If you have the experience, gifting, and fortitude, you can say this to an adulterer.
Bitterness is a “process” sin. While we should apply every effort to overcome bitterness, the reality is, if we are bitter today, we’re probably going to be bitter tomorrow.
We should beg God to take this from us. We should do this in faith, reminding ourselves that we are no longer slaves to sin. We should pray for those who have hurt us. We should pray that God will bless them, and that they will prosper in every way. Asking God to change them is counter productive to the process. Changing their (SGM’s) actions is my business
. Changing their hearts is God’s.
In taking our thoughts captive, we must focus on the goodness of God. Rather than becoming a prayer warrior, we must become a praise warrior. Travail in your thanksgiving. There are not enough hours in the day to thank God for His mercy and generosity towards us. We were by nature and by action children of wrath who have become joint heirs with Christ, based solely on His kindness towards us. Make it your aim to focus on who you have become in Him, while remembering who you were, and what you would be without Him. I would make it my aim to think of nothing else. Start with the big picture (justification), while remembering His goodness in every area of our lives. Thank Him for toilet paper
A strong suggestion would be to stay away from the blogs. I believe that a person struggling with bitterness rips open a scab every time they visit refuge or survivors. It’s so much harder to take your thoughts captive while reading about the continued failures of those who have hurt you.
So follow steps 1 2 3 and you’re free? Nope. Will you one day be free from bitterness? Absolutely! I promise.
While we do everything in our power to free ourselves from the cancer of bitterness, we keep in mind that only God can change hearts. We know from experience that God’s time table is not the same as ours. We entrust ourselves to Him, knowing that His ways are perfect, and that He is for us, even when we experience trials. We know from experience that trials will often bring us closer to Him. We can then embrace the trial, knowing the end result (Rms 8:28, 29), knowing Him more!
Please be patient with yourself, as God is patient with you. Focus on who you are in Him, and not on your feelings or actions. Your feelings or actions did not save you, and they will not sanctify you. You really can trust God with your sanctification in the same way that you trust Him with your salvation.
I wish you a peaceful heart and a restful mind. Be still and know that He is God. This season will pass, and you will one day thank Him for it. I promise.
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Wow Jim, that was a great post. The very best advice!
December 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Jim:
This is good advice you gave:
“A strong suggestion would be to stay away from the blogs. I believe that a person struggling with bitterness rips open a scab every time they visit refuge or survivors. It’s so much harder to take your thoughts captive while reading about the continued failures of those who have hurt you.”
Apologies to everyone for the rant.
Merry Christmas, everyone!
-John
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:37 pm
PK, I loved what you said about Luther, especially this part:
“Through His Spirit and His Word, God is sufficient. Give us Christ.”
Focusing on Jesus and discarding anything that distracts me from HIM has been so helpful for me this last year. I feel alive, free and so in love with Him when I’ve realized how much I need Him.
December 23rd, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Really good to see PK here again.
December 24th, 2009 at 8:18 am
“There are not enough hours in the day to thank God for His mercy and generosity towards us.”
Great post Jim
Merry Christmas!
December 24th, 2009 at 11:40 am
To all of the dear ones here on the refuge:
Merry Christmas! The Lord has come!
December 25th, 2009 at 3:36 am
Merry Christmas to all!
Jim, you said: ”A strong suggestion would be to stay away from the blogs.”
Yes, I have struggled with bitterness. If I get to talking about SGM, the bitter feelings come welling up again.
BUT, I must say that the blogs have been what has taught me over the past year and a half what “normal” is. They have been what the Lord has used to help heal me from the cult teachings, from the culture that is ‘works’ based, from the mentality that was so extra-biblical and from all the “gospel plus” thinking I had based my faith on.
I thank God for the blogs. Yes, I have dealt with bitterness, anger, wanting revenge in situations, etc…whatever sin you want to call it….yes. I have dealt with all of those. But, thank God, I have had a place to work through each one of them and find “normal” on the other side.
I’m still working towards normal, but I think every day is a step closer. Jesus is finally off the cross. I finally trust the Holy Spirit at work in me. I have so far to go…but…at least I have had the medium to come this far….
Praise God!
Sid
December 25th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Thanks Jim for the words about remembering things that are praiseworthy instead of dwelling on what is not. I also appreciate your suggestions to stay away from the blogs. I intend to do that starting now. I have not been dealing with any bitterness towards SGM but this past year had enjoyed sharing and reading on this blog. Unfortunately, there are those here who are still going through the hurtful experiences they had at SGM and it colors how they respond to those of us who have not had those same experiences. This makes it very unproductive for me in reading or sharing my own opinions. Thanks for the opportunity to share our experiences and feelings, opinions, etc. Merry Christmas to all and may you all find peace with God and with those who have wounded you.
December 25th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Merry Christmas to all!
Because He came, we can be free from bondage to sin.
What a wonderful gift He gave!
December 26th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“I thank God for the blogs. Yes, I have dealt with bitterness, anger, wanting revenge in situations, etc…whatever sin you want to call it….yes. I have dealt with all of those. But, thank God, I have had a place to work through each one of them and find “normal” on the other side.”
.
.
I’m with you, Sidney. If it hadn’t been for being able to sort things out with others going through the same experiences, I think I’d still be struggling with bitterness. Hearing everyone’s experiences has given me insight as to why those that I used to consider family have changed so much. It’s easier to go through things like this together with family, than to be off by yourself trying to make sense of it all with well-meaning,but clueless people.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
I think I agree with you, Ellie. Helping each other is what it’s all about. Each person should listen to his/her own conscious about reading the Refuge. We are all in different places. However, it definitely helps to have others to lean on while dealing with anger and bitterness. The desire must be to get through it honestly, by grace, not to wallow in it forever. As far as it seems, no one here wants to wallow. It is all a process. Merry Christmas!
December 27th, 2009 at 12:29 am
There is no formula for overcoming bitterness, including staying away from the blogs. My general advice comes from my experience in trying to help others, and from my own personal experience.
Survivors was very helpful to Carole and I when we were going through our “did we imagine what just happened” phase. I’m obviously not against the blogs, nor do I think they are unhelpful. I do think that there are some who would be better off not reading.
I agree with Canary-everyone must follow their own conscience.
December 28th, 2009 at 1:34 am
Just a note about the blogs ~
I stumbled on them purely by “accident” — having had no idea that such existed. Finding you and Survivors has helped me put a terrible experience into a framework, and helped me sort out things that I didn’t even realize needed sorting. After a few months of reading, thinking, and praying, when I think of SGM, I no longer feel like I’m treading water and in need of a life jacket. If every post here had been filled with bitterness, I couldn’t have continued to read and heal – and I am amazed at the forgiving spirit and grace shown by many of you who share honestly and eloquently.
Happy New Year to everyone. Maybe sometime in 2010, the reform, repentence, and rejoicing we pray for will come to pass!
December 28th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I am not sure where to place this, so I will place it here: When things stink, we are quick to point it out; however, when something is right, that should be acknowledges as well. Keith Breault preached a grace message on Sunday at Kingsway (click here) that was absolutely spot on. I am sensing change in the air. I pray that it will find root throughout SGM. For those who knew KB in the past, I would be interested to hear your thoughts especially. As for me personally, I wasn’t hearing messages like this during my tenure with SGM. Thoughts???
December 28th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Square Peg,
Let me be the frst to say that your post gladdens the heart! You know, once we begin to see it all from the Lord’s perspective, there is no need nor room for bitterness. And you are right to say that, if all the posts were filled with bitterness, people like us would never have been helped to understand and heal, and then turn to pray for the very people who harmed us. That’s a fact.
December 28th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I don’t think we will ever truly know the value of these 2 blogs. God has used Refuge and Survivors to uncover abuse, deception, wrong doctrine, etc to many who would have never known the truth. Because SGM has operated in secrecy and deception for so long, the truth of who they really are and their agenda of control and manipulation was buried very deeply. I am so thankful to God for these blogs for they have helped many see the light, leave SGM and start down a path of healing and freedom in Christ.
The book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, arrived on my front porch Sat. As I began to skim through the chapters, I actually became scared. Scared because I had seen and experienced the very things written on the pages of this book. The depth of abuse and control within SGM and the fact that so many are still trusting and believing in SGM is downright frightening.
My prayer for this coming year is that God will uncover even more truth and that He will bring deliverance and freedom to all those still walking in deception and bound in SGM churches!
December 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
So true, Square Peg!!
Refuge and Survivors have helped so many people. God’s timing for such was perfect.
There were a LOT of people out there “treading water and in need of a life jacket.” And unfortunately I’m finding there are STILL a lot in need.
December 29th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Fred,
Is “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” a good suggestion for a family member dealing with her son’s abuse in a very controlling church? No kidding, his church is far worse than what we have seen at sgm. Through pastoral “guidance”, he has lost his kids, his wife, and his house. Yet, he still preaches at us about how he is in the right. My husband sent a very polite letter to his brother’s pastor, confronting the teaching that it was okay for a man to leave his wife if the wife leaves their church. Unsurprisingly, he got no response.
My brother-in-law, now middle-aged, lives with his mother (at least he still has his job!). So, she is the one most likely to make him see truth. First, she needs to understand what it is all about. Hence, my question about whether this is a good book to recommend to her.
Something else I wanted to mention. I was listening to a pastor on my computer. He happened to mention that he is very close to getting his Master’s degree. The context in which he said this was amazing. On top of all the demands of serving alongside others in his church, he continues to educate himself for the sole purpose of better serving and caring for the sheep. His humility was very obvious in that he recognized his need to know as much as he could about caring for the people God has brought to him.
I have to say that it was very refreshing to hear this. He wasn’t going to his own pastor’s college that he’d created. He looked for Christians outside his circle who were willing to train him in areas where he was weak. He didn’t have to give away his church. He didn’t become part of another organization in order to benefit from it. He continues to lead his own people with the help of other trusted saints. In his message, he was actually encouraging these other leaders to take on more responsibility, because he knew he could not do it all. He was actually pleading with them!
This is a true shepherd whose heart is for the sheep. So cool! And so not like what I experienced in my former controlling church.
December 29th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Canary,
I haven’t read much of the book yet since I just received it on Sat. So far, I would say that this book would be helpful for all Christians – those who are or have been in abusive churches or even for those who are in wonderful churches. Many Christians have no idea how many churches have strayed down the wrong paths and into control and abuse. I certainly didn’t have any clue prior to my experience that this was happening to such a large degree in evangelical churches. I was aware that it was happening in Catholic churches and isolated incidents in other denominations.
I am not sure how long you have been out of SGM. It seems that from everything I have learned through experience, research, communicating with others, etc. that SGM has become much more controlling, much more abusive in these last 10 years. Although, maybe it just surfaced and was always this bad. I really don’t know.
December 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Thanks, Fred. I think I’ll order the book.
My husband and I left sgm in 1997, having been members since around 1981-82. We were involved with Brent’s church eventually, which tells you something about the control we were under. (I wonder how he is? I still pray for him). In the early days, our church was filled with the Holy Spirit. The control, which I compare to leaven, was always there in some form, but grew and grew til it seemed to take over everything. We were forced to leave just to protect our personal walk with Jesus. I am sorry to hear that things have gotten worse over the past ten years. I can’t imagine, except from what I read here. I’m sure there must be exceptions, right? But the Bible does say that even a little leaven will leven the whole lump of dough. Gotta be watchful, even in our own lives!
December 30th, 2009 at 12:16 am
Gratefully Disillusioned — I listened to the message you mentioned, and am hopeful that the changes you sensed are sincere and permanent. I know nothing of this pastor’s past, so I cannot comment there. But I do hope that there is a new perspective and laying hold of grace, in the true sense of the word. And as you said, when something is right, we ought to acknowledge it. I’m applauding this message, and the guts it takes if these guys stand up and make changes, and praying for the “thems” and the “us’es” in this situation, with full expectation of God’s glory. Amen!
December 30th, 2009 at 7:21 am
Square Peg,
Keith was sr pastor of the Chesapeake church until it blew up recently. He was moved to Kingsway to be mentored by Gene to plant a “church” sometime in 2010.
I too applaud truth but remain cautiously optimistic, knowing words alone can betray and have done so down throughout the ages.
December 30th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Gratefully Disillusioned and Square Peg
Maybe there is change happening within SGM. One can always hope.
Unfortunately the typical pattern you will see when change happens is just to see the change. There is rarely any confession of past wrongs or actions. IMO, this is like one hiding their sin vs. confessing and forsaking. If a group truly recognizes its past sins and mistakes shouldn’t they publicly confess and forsake them?
It also wouldn’t surprise me if someone in SGM put up the appearance of change and didn’t really change. This could include that they know the right words to say and what should be done but they don’t actually do what they teach.
It is sad I have to be so skeptical of this group.
Steve
December 30th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Steve,
I am tracking with you brother! I too am VERY skeptical, but applaud the words of pure grace when I hear them. The LIFE inside of me leaps for joy when I hear truth, new covenant truth that isn’t a mixture of law and grace.
Time will certainly tell the tale. If change is at a heart level, I rejoice. If change is made to just protect the “church machine,” that too will be revealed. I remain cautiously optimistic.
December 30th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
“Cautiously optimistic”…that’s a nice way to look at it.
Due to all the damage control I’ve seen through the years, and the fact that it’s awfully hard for leopards to change their spots, I now have a “time will tell” attitude. Of course, God could always intervene.
I’m not a pessimistic person, and…lol, I’m not that cynical (although folks reading here would never know it). I’m just older and a little wiser. I’ve been observing people for a long time, now.
A friend recently shared this with me, “If changes are simply “cosmetic,” prompted out of a response to bad press (the blogs, for instance), then these changes almost have to be more about protecting SGM’s image than about genuine heartsickness over what was done.” If they were genuinely heartsick, you would think they would go public and come clean, repenting and asking for forgiveness, rather than just talking “change” and a “new openness.” How can you have one without the other?
December 30th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
I play a weird role in the SGM saga as a vocal critic while being on the record as one who is in agreement with many sgm distinctives (see the “about” page).
One distinctive that I feel is worth noting is that sgm has made dramatic changes in the past.
We should also note that there are high profile individual leaders who have significantly changed their MO in the last year or so. By all accounts that I’ve heard, Micky in Charlotte is a changed man.
I agree with Steve that public repentance is clearly in order, from the top down, and I personally don’t expect to see it, but this group has surprised me before, so who knows?
December 30th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
“By all accounts that I’ve heard, Micky in Charlotte is a changed man.”
Wow! Wonder how long it will take for his sheep to reflect it?
December 30th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Not to be nit-picky, but the role of ANY spiritual leader is not to be a shepard, rather to be a good “sheep dog,” directing the sheep back to the Shepard. Only the SHEPARD can really lead the sheep. We can get in mucho trouble looking to ANY man (shepard). If Micky is a changed man, he will not allow a false dependency to develop with himself.
LIFE is found in HIM alone, not in teachings, principles, laws, requirements, and all the stuff that the the religious minds wants. Don’t we tend to clamour for a list? God give me a list; I can follow it! He shows us very early, if we are paying attention, that we cannot. We need Him and are helpless and impotent without HIS LIFE rising up within us. “Without me, you can do nothing!”
December 30th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Well said, G.D! Five tweets for that post!
December 30th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
Ha ha
I see you are still singing (and tweeting) from on top of that cage, and the poor little kitty kat is still inside the cage–good place for him. 
December 30th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Hee-hee, G.D. Kitty sometimes looks at me like he still wants to eat me, but I keep him subdued. No more prison type places for me, thank you very much. I’m free!
December 30th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
As we witness the birth of a “kinder, gentler” SGM that has learned from its past mistakes it is wise to keep in mind that Scripture teaches of these things.
Time for a long-overdue quiz……………..
Which verses apply to the new and improved SGM?
A) Mat 7:15-20
B) Col 1:10
C) Phil 4:9
D) Col 4:6
E) all of the above
While SGM likely hopes that the upheaval of the past year is behind them, they should know that many are still watching, reporting and holding them accountable.
N.S.L.B.
December 30th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
AKS said
If they were genuinely heartsick, you would think they would go public and come clean, repenting and asking for forgiveness, rather than just talking “change” and a “new openness.” How can you have one without the other?
Was anyone else here around when Benny was sent packing to PC because of supposed legalism in VA? And Mullery came in and preached ‘grace grace grace’ ? (Just months after LT went to GA)
There was NO atonement, no confessions, no time of repentance, in any way or on anyone’s part. I asked (later) a cgl about whether he had considered his participation in the error of that church life and he looked stunned, like he had no idea how or if he had participated, much less perpetrated any of said legalism.
I am afraid that SGM lawyers are saying there can be no confessions, lest they open the doors wide for lawsuits….EVEN IF anyone (cj, etc) wanted to make any confessions! And to date, I have seen/heard of no such urge, for the record.
At the time I wondered what, if anything might be different, ever, if no admission of the NEED to make things different is missing. Who is the great philosopher who said ‘If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got.’
I hope and pray that lives are no longer destroyed, or abused; if there is to be ANY reconciliation why is it kept so quiet?
In our case, Keith Jacob was fired, so even if we wrote to whomever would they see the systemic errors and Shank’s sad participation and poor doctrine? Oh, I think not. A fired (de-gifted) pastor is too easy a scapegoat. As if there was any integrity in declaring someone as no longer gifted as sr. (only) pastor.
Quizzler – great to see you again!
Might I add 2Timothy 3:1-7 to your list of Scriptures that might apply?
SGMSurvivors has some wonderful “wow” words about caring more about others than our own outcome, and truthfully that is where I am at this time. I truly wish healing could come to every abused heart, and trampled sheep. But hoping and praying that there is real integrity in any adjustments to SGM, and believing that change is in the air are not necessarily the same.
By the way, I would LOVE to hear something has been heard or confessed from those letters!
If KBreault was at the helm during the Chesapeake debacle, what has he done about making that right with those people, BEFORE going to a new congregation and putting on grace and humility in a good message?
Skeptical isn’t my favorite color, but it’s one I’m wearing a lot these days, with regards to SGM.
December 30th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
Quizzler….sorry…. I meant to post 2 Timothy 3:1-7 or II Timothy 3:1-7
December 31st, 2009 at 1:59 am
Defended,
My husband and I left a year or so before Benny went through his “demotion”. We were part of his church for years before moving to Charlotte. He was definitely a tow-the-line kind of pastor. I hope his experience taught him to care more for the sheep than his agenda. Like someone said here before, there are men who are in the business of pastoring, and there are men who are called to pastor. It is truly my prayer that Benny has become part of the latter group of men since he went through his trial in sgm. I would like to know that he and his family have experienced the truth of grace. In the early days before PDI, they gave a lot of themselves to our little church. There seemed to be real love involved. It was an exciting time! When we were adopted into PDI, it all changed, I’m sorry to say. I will always remember with gratefulness those early days when Jesus was preached and love of the brethren prevailed. Everything was so simple then.
December 31st, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Canary, I can’t help but wonder if we met!
I was told that Benny came to CLC/So.Denver when Shank did the removal of Keith Jacobs. To this day I don’t know what to think of that, and they waited 4 more years before firing KJ from the time we requested to be heard by SS about his anger-based leadership.
I heard good reports about Benny and Sherree going to Orlando and that Danny Jones was not CJ, and they would see leadership in grace being walked out. But I have no idea how the Phillips are now, and if they love Jesus more than they love searching out someone’s sin.
I wish them well. All of them.
December 31st, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Defended,
Wouldn’t that be something if we do know each other! I second your wishes for the Phillips. Sheree was at one time a very close friend who made a great difference in my life, for which I will always be grateful. She taught me to desire God’s will above my own, a lesson which I have never forgotten.
January 1st, 2010 at 11:48 am
Defended,
Thank you for posting additional Scriptural references to my quiz…………you get an A and move to the head of the class!
As for your question concerning the situation down in Chesapeake; you asked……
“By the way, I would LOVE to hear something has been heard or confessed from those letters! If KBreault was at the helm during the Chesapeake debacle, what has he done about making that right with those people, BEFORE going to a new congregation and putting on grace and humility in a good message?”
This is an excellent question and one that needs answering. Those letters you refer to can be found at……..
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/1.....hesapeake/
N.S.L.B.
January 1st, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Defended said,
“By the way, I would LOVE to hear something has been heard or confessed from those letters!”
Are you referring to the letters to CJ or Quizzler’s reference above?
BTW, good to see you here again, Quizzler!
January 1st, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Well, I guess I was asking two different questions; thank you both for pulling them out.
“By the way, I would LOVE to hear something has been heard or confessed from those letters!”
In this question, I was referring to the letters that were given directly or indirectly to CJ, via an anonymous RBD.
Also, someone was commending KBreaults humility and message in a new VA church, and I was also asking if he had displayed any of that humility and grace since his departure from Chesapeake or in any reconciliation efforts with the offended/departed families who tried so hard to meet with him and come to an understanding. If that happened before his going to Midlothian I apologize, I must have missed that glad reporting, and would welcome this news (and correction).
January 2nd, 2010 at 12:06 am
Defended,
I’ve talked to only one of the “three” couples who told me that they had reconciled with Keith before he left Chesapeake.
I’ve talked to one other couple and with “Esther” but, since the reason were we talking had nothing to do with SGCC, we didn’t talk about the status of reconciliation.
January 2nd, 2010 at 1:18 am
Defended,
I’ll post an update soon tomorrow re the letters to CJ. I emailed them directly to him, and cc’d the rbd.
January 6th, 2010 at 1:45 am
Not that it has anything to do with this. But I’ve heard tomorrow night an urgent church “family meeting” that needs immediate attention will be held at Metro Life Church in Orlando, FL. News, anyone?
January 7th, 2010 at 4:18 am
Yes, Sigelman. I can. Just need a few days to process. Here is what I can get out.
Legalism of Virginia Beach Repeats Itself in Orlando.
Pastor leaves staff, as in resigns and quits after 7 plus years. No immorality, nothing inappropriate. He not only leaves Metro but SGM as well. Church is in tremendous pain. This man is more than loved here.
On one hand Danny Jones and Dave Harvey praised Todd and wanted to support him hearing from God to leave Metro and SGM, and with the other hand - backhandedly -condemned him for not wanting to stay and go through an examination process with the rest of the pastoral staff. < Staff infighting over the past year demanded big guns from SGM to step in to help bring stabilization back in November, so we were told in nicer terms.> Guess Todd said no. Why go through one more kangaroo court? Why go through any more pain? It certainly didn’t work with Brent until enough people got hurt. Something no one will talk about.
I am sorry Dave H, but the lame excuse that we are all sinners and people in a church can expect to get hurt is a POOR EXCUSE FOR POOR MANIPULATIVE LEADERSHIP. < you know, when you walk in to the office and meet with Benny over anything ,you are told what you have to say is full of pride and or sin? > We get lambasted when we sin and are declared unusable vessels but that’s YOUR excuse when LEADERSHIP sins against the church? We can EXPECT it? P.S. they continue leading in spite of the pain they inflict.
Danny made like it was a big surprise that Bob K and Dave H were there tonight. SOMEBODY CALLED THEM HERE! Like they really just showed up without letting anyone know they were coming? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Danny made like they did not see Todd’s leaving was coming.I don’t buy that either. He got tired of beating a dead horse like the rest of us on the way out the door. Maybe because they are all yes men protecting their jobs, homes, and lifestyles. Maybe Todd has an eternal prospective and is more concerned about following God than being a yes man, having a new house and job that he loved. Integrity! Todd still has his intact. He looses it all by resigning. Professionally and personally. God will honor that!
There is only so much you can say until you just give up. Guess Todd did. I am sure for the sake of his family and own mental and spiritual health it was time. Personally,I am still waiting for answers from meetings I had with Benny and then with Danny over 12 weeks ago. I am done waiting. I am leaving Oz. I am not the only one.
Todd was the only pastor on the staff with any integrity or guts to call a spade a spade and confront this group of blind men, as well as go with the wounded sheep to Danny Jones and be a third ear. Todd was the only one with any real joy and real grace. Todd handed in his letter of resignation on Sunday, hence emergency meeting three days later, Wednesday night Jan 6 th. Unfortunately, the wrong one pastor left. The score? Jocks- 100/ Worship ministry-0. Flock left bloody in the aisles. Film at 11.
Dave H and Bob K in the house. A bit too late guys! Dave attempts to walk us through with a mini sermon ” Don’t Waste Your Departing”. Don’t even ask.
He even tried to inject some humor. There was nothing funny about it or this hurtful situation. Then he tried to re-envision the church with recommitment and reflect on why you came to Metro to begin with. It was a poor attempt of damage control. The whole night was.
Now watch more people bail out. Last straw for many, myself included. I am a emotional mess. I have been a part PDI/SGM most of my adult life ….a lifetime. I can not remember the last time I cried like this. The thought of starting someplace else is devastating, but I can no longer stay. Details later, if I can even deal with repeating them.
Virgina Beach repeats itself in Orlando. Legalism has destroyed another church. Satan has another hay day. Blinders still remain on Metro’s remaining staff under the guise of being faithful, loyal, accountable and teachable. It is time for the remaining pastoral staff to face the truth. Self seeking divisiveness is in your midst. What is so funny is Benny thinks no one notices. Benny, we all notice. You have an agenda and it is being the ruling reigning King at Metro Life Church by whatever means. You’ve played this game before. You know what not to do. You obviously are playing better ball. This whole thing stinks. I am asking you all not to reveal. Please please pray. Dorothy.
January 7th, 2010 at 8:58 am
Thanks for the update regarding Orlando. Being an hour away, I’m very surprised that they haven’t had much airtime here.
January 7th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Dear Jesus, this is painfully, painfully familiar. My heart and prayers are with all the beloved children of God struggling today in Orlando.
January 7th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Dorothy,
Your Oz comparison is right on. Oz was an illusion, just like the ”grace” in Sovereign Grace.
Dear Lord, when will this end? Your sheep are being eaten alive by false shepherds. Comfort the lost and confused, Jesus, as they leave Metro Life. Let their souls find rest in the quiet so that they might hear your sweet, gentle voice. You are their true Shepherd, and know just exactly what to say.
Dorothy, I feel such compassion for you. I wish I could hug you tightly. I can reassure you that this is the beginning of a great journey into grace. It is so painful at first. The sense of betrayal, the fear and anger, all are natural. The Lord will walk through it all with you, bringing you to a place of peace. Please give yourself time to mourn, time to understand, and time to heal.
I was a part of sgm when it was PDI, most of my adult life, as well. The pain of leaving was unbelievable. Yet, 13 years later I stand strong in the Lord, full of grace. I know His love like never before. The joy of the Lord is real, even in hard times. I am so grateful that my husband and I left when we did, rescuing our children from “Oz” as well. You will be grateful one day, too.
In the meantime, we are here to help if you need it. Many of us know what you are experiencing, and mourn with you the loss of friends and the sense of belonging. You are not alone. YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Very sincerely, Canary
January 7th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Dorothy, I’m so very sorry for your pain.
In Eden there were 2 trees. One, with the knowledge of good & evil, and the other was the Tree of Life. YOU are grafted in to the Tree of Life thru our Savior’s precious blood. The other tree is all about knowledge, examination and sadly, good-looking flesh.
My prayer is that you can press in to Jesus, the giver of Life and the only one who can share true comfort, as it’s really against Him and His body that this strife rages.
January 7th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Very well stated Defended, words of LIFE. The “church machine” so wants to christianize the flesh, much like trying to improve the dark without using light.
Dorothy, there is LIFE and joy and real peace after SGM. Follow your heart; HE will lead you and care for you.
January 7th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
“Let my eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease for the…daughter of my people has been smitten with a great wound, a very grievous blow.” Jeremiah 14:17
“Jesus wept.” John 11:35
“May Christ through your faith [actually] dwell (settle down, abide, make His permanent home) in your hearts!
May you be rooted deep in love and founded securely on love, that you may have the power and be strong to apprehend and grasp with all the saints [God's devoted people, the experience of that love ] what is the breadth and length and height and depth [of it]:
That you may really come to know [practically, through experience for yourselves] the love of Christ which far surpasses mere knowledge [without experience];
That you may be filled [through all your being] unto all the fullness of God [may have the richest measure of the divine Presence, and become a body wholly filled and flooded with God Himself]!” Ephesians 3:17-19, Amplified Bible.
January 7th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
PRAISE GOD!!!! Sorry for shouting but I personally know Todd. Whenever I hear that someone I know sees the light, I can only praise the One who opened his eyes!!! Thank you, Jesus! Wow, I haven’t felt this hopeful for a long time.
January 7th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
This, SGM defenders, is why we, your former brothers and sisters from the “local churches” are here. NOT to be bitter and divisive, but to warn and then to be there for those that need us when the inevitable fallout occurs. I hate what Satan is doing. I hate this false humility and legalism and what it does to those dear ones that just want to follow Jesus with all their heart.
Disillusionment can be a very very hard thing to go through, but the LORD is faithful. He will bind up the broken-hearted. He is faithful, He is kind, He loves His children SO MUCH. Things will get better, I have seen this. It’s been over 2 years since I cried and cried and cried, and it is getting better. I will never blindly trust in man again, only Jesus is worthy. We CAN hear the voice of God no matter what these men have said. We have the Holy Spirit within us, He is with us always.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ Dorothy & all the others who are hurting tonight }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} <—-hugs
Ellie
January 7th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Dear Dorothy,
My wife and I are so very sorry for you! We had been part of the Orlando church for almost 10 years when we followed the rainbow to the Denver Church. We stayed there seven years while we watched our own Oz disintegrate as family after family left. The Wicked Witch of the West found her way into our church and Legalism, Arrogance and Pride (oh my!) ravaged the flock, leaving many wounded, bleeding and marred. Sadly some left Christianity and to this day have not returned. Interestingly enough, the pastor of the Denver church had spent more than a decade under Benny’s tutelage.
We were in a position to have input, and were even part of the “process” to try and fix what was wrong in the Denver church. Unfortunately, the biggest thing that was wrong was the process! Despite apostolic oversight, month upon month passed with little to no change, and those of us who were bleeding on the front line received little to no care. If meetings with B are anything like meetings with the Denver pastor, they were confusing, accusatory and skillfully articulated to point the broomstick of Sin in your direction. “You’re bitter, and that invalidates your observation!”, “Have you dealt with your own sin in bringing that to me?” and dozens of similar responses. It is the sovereign grace book you won’t see on the book table – “A Hundred and One Ways to Avoid Receiving Correction – Pastors Only Edition”. I suppose I am just being bitter and this invalidates my observations.
Dorothy, my wife and I feel your pain. It is hard for us to not get emotional about another flock being ravaged. We ARE praying for you, and for so many others that we still know at Metro who are in similar situation. You have finally seen the Wizard for what he is.
There is hope. It was devastating for my wife and I when we made the decision that we could stay no more. Our marriage was a shamble, and our lives little better. But God saw fit to fix this. We found a new church that we have grown to love. We are reminded in new and wonderful ways about the love of God, and have one again found His grace to be truly amazing! Our marriage has grown stronger again, and we have realized that the body of Christ is So Much Bigger than just Sovereign Grace!
I cannot advise whether to stay or go, but pray, follow your heart, and click your heels three times and you will find home!
I also continue to pray for Danny and the staff for both Orlando churches. I am not sure, but it seems that the Danny I knew, like the Winkies, has fallen the spell of the witch.
Dorthy, a brighter day is coming!
January 7th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
Well said, Ellie!
January 8th, 2010 at 1:24 am
Dorothy,
There is a new day dawning for you. the pain is great, the disbelief that one such as Todd could be treated so poorly. My wife and i left metro effectively in april of ‘09 and officially in July. this was the hardest decision I have ever made in my life. i had been with the fellowship when danny initially left calvary assembly 25 years ago and i had know some of the people ther for 30 years or more.
Well, I can testify that there is abundant life once you remove yourself from the life defying, legalistic, overbearing authoritative, cross-centered calvinism that is SGM.
My wife and i discovered everywhere we went there was God breathed life and and a wonderful freedom in Christ. the Lord was faithful to lead us to a wonderful new fellowwship and God is truly blessing us and causing us to grow.
It is both a sad day and a day of rejoicing. maybe this is the long awaited wake-up call. I doubt it after hearing all the reports on how the meeting was handled and the obvious deception that took place in an effort for damage control. Blind people will lead the blind into the ditch or over the cliff. You got off the train in time.
To all my friends still there at Metro you now have an in your face understanding of part of the many reasons as to why my wife and i left Metro. For those who or in the place of trying to decide what to do next you are in our thoughts and prayers. if need be give me a call or my wife. we fully understand the pain and we are here to provide comfort and refuge in Christ. for it is in Christ alone that we will as Christians find our freedom and joy unspeakable and full of glory.
May the Lord bless you and keep you and welcome back to Florida (Kansas) Dorothy!!!!!!
January 8th, 2010 at 2:38 am
Dorothy so very sorry for the painful days you and your church family are walking through. Our family will be praying for you all. You and the T family will have joy beyond and even through the pain. Praying the Lord will use these sad events to open many eyes to see that Oz isn’t always what it seems, and maybe Kansas isn’t so bad after all. Your God will go before you with each step you take, don’t be afraid.
Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.
Psalm 30:5
Hope
(recently departed from SG)
January 8th, 2010 at 9:04 am
“you are bitter and that invalidates your observation.”
that well used phrase works well in Northern Virginia and Senior pastors greet you as if nothing ever happened.
Dorothy, we feel your pain..believe me.
January 8th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Flotsam and Jetsam said:
Too bad these “imperfect” leaders rarely want to admit any of their own imperfections.
“You’re bitter, and that invalidates your observation!”, “Have you dealt with your own sin in bringing that to me?” and dozens of similar responses. It is the sovereign grace book you won’t see on the book table – “A Hundred and One Ways to Avoid Receiving Correction – Pastors Only Edition”. I suppose I am just being bitter and this invalidates my observations.
Nice phrase and way of putting that.
It is so sad where one hears so many reports of how SGM Leaders like to turn the tables on someone bringing to a leader an “observation.” I wonder how intentional this is or are these leaders only good at seeing others problems and sin and not their own. As you point out, even if a person bringing this up is bitter does that negate what they brought up about a leader if it is true?
Of course who would expect these leaders to have any sin since they always parade themselves as being “imperfect.”
January 8th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
I’d really like to hear from people via email who are currently having the tables turned on them.
SGM leadership is currently acting like this in an anomaly-a part of their past that rarely happens today.
I’ll be happy to inform them that they are misinformed.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
January 8th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
“We received a lavish outpouring of grace Wednesday night! Meetings like this are never easy and so much can easily be misunderstood, but from those I talked to last night after the meeting, God’s grace is evident. How grateful I am for that!!
Thank you again, for making this time together possible. If you were unable to be with us, we did record the meeting and would be glad to get a copy to you.
As you process all you heard, please feel free to contact the pastoral team with any questions or observations you might have. We want to make it easy for you to express your heart and share your observations. “Speaking the truth in love” brings glory to God and good to our church
family.
…
Join with me in believing for a move of the Holy Spirit at Metro. We need it so much!
Danny Jones”
January 8th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
re:Jim – oh my goodness. Jim, I don’t even know how or what you say to that!
When our pastor made a stand that an older woman couldn’t take a newly-saved woman into a Bible Study that pastor had no place to go as the godly woman gave him biblical support for her desire and so he shut down the conversation with “if you keep this up I’m going to have to wonder what sin is in your heart that you want to continue to argue with me”. sigh.
That was 2002 I believe. In CLC-SoDenver. Did that guy take a class in that debate style? Was it used on him? Or is it taught in their leadership retreats?
ps – background: this was during a marathon teaching on Titus, and a woman teaching another woman about the Scriptures was purported to be based on Carolyn Mahaney’s teaching. It seems this (former) pastor held firm that the newly-saved husband was supposed to disciple his newly-saved wife and that other woman should not do that. Apparently if women try to teach each other sin will result. This was in the context of teaching Titus. Makes no sense to me whatsoever, but it happened. I promise.
I’m praying for you all. anomalies abound.
January 8th, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Well, I can testify that there is abundant life once you remove yourself from the life defying, legalistic, overbearing authoritative, cross-centered calvinism that is SGM.
A minor clarification.
SGM is not cross centered Calvinism.
Do NOT reject Calvinism when you can have the deep and lasting joy of reading men like Edwards, LLoyd- Jones, Iain Murray, Burroughs, Pink, and hundreds more. Do NOT confuse CJM with godly pious Calvinists who have entered into the deep love and grace of God and the depths of His holy word like few of us ever have. Calvinism is the gospel and man centered Arminianism is error. What you tasted at SGM is NOT true Calvinism.
January 9th, 2010 at 1:15 am
Dorothy-
I’m sorry for the hurt you’ve endured…
Peace to you-MM
January 9th, 2010 at 2:45 am
Defended – Once again, I am staring openmouthed at my computer. Never in my entire life have I ever heard of such a horrific and ridiculous policy — that a newly-saved person was denied the opportunity for Bible study because her newly-saved husband should disciple her. The blind leading the blind. This is nuts. SGM has gone farther off the rocker than I previously thought. And I thought they were pretty far off. Where in the world is common sense?
Are the SGM pastors having some kind of contest to see who can be the most controlling?
Or maybe just the kookiest?
Lord, Jesus, come quickly.
January 9th, 2010 at 6:34 am
5yearsinpdi–wasn’t throwing Calvinism under the bus. All the adjectives were defining for me the poor interpretation and practice of Calvinism at SGM. I currently attend a church that would call its doctrine Calvinistic, but the life experienced there is so completely different–like walking from a smoke filled room into fresh mountain air!!!
The main point is that there is a great life awaiting those who leave SGM. it may hurt for a season, but the Lord will see you through to the other side of the pain and into a joy fulled life in Christ!!!
January 9th, 2010 at 6:38 am
Flotsam and Jetsam– so sorry to hear what happened to you in Colorado. So enjoyed working together on the Star Trek skits!!! You are loved and missed. BTW, i got married-finally in Nov of ‘06. You would love my wife-she makes me look so much better than i am!!!
January 9th, 2010 at 10:53 am
All the adjectives were defining for me the poor interpretation and practice of Calvinism at SGM. I currently attend a church that would call its doctrine Calvinistic, but the life experienced there is so completely different–like walking from a smoke filled room into fresh mountain air!!!
Precisely! My experience as well.
January 9th, 2010 at 11:25 am
Jim, I would like to send you some info can you contact me through my email???
January 9th, 2010 at 11:43 am
John-sure thing.
February 27th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Longtime reader from the wild west, here. Barging in to comment on the state of the union, I mean, Grace Community church (North Denver).
It’s been a month now since Sr Pastor GMck presided over the very high security “Family Meeting”:
Expectant answers/reasons for the departure of former Sr Pastor DB were dropped into a bottomless bucket. Maybe leadership decided silence was the best answer. Or maybe its just left to the many people (some who have already left and those who stay) that can figure it out because of personal ‘experiences’. Or maybe “grace” was extended when it became evident DB evolved into a product of the legalistic SGM Company.
And the production line continues with GMck——
A poster (Be Bold) above spoke concern for Grace Community when stated:
“I grieve for the Denver church. They can’t possibly know how their foundations are going to be shaken and they likely won’t notice the cracks in the building until the soil is sifted like sand underneath them.”
Will Grace Community stay afloat?
There are ALREADY ‘grievous’ cracks that have been plastered over. The walls that contain the cracks stand on the sandy foundation that is named Sovereign Grace Ministries. A sandy foundation shifts; is unsteady; causes holes to fall into. For awhile the building on sandy foundation can stand, propping itself up to look like a strong rock—but it’s not The Rock.
God is God. He sees. He knows all.
Sadly, we are watching what happens when leaders and or a ministry (SGM) have:
“…misled My people by saying ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace. And when anyone builds a wall, behold, they plaster it over with whitewash.”– Ezekiel 13:10
As I reread the posts from this thread, the very clear synopsis of why the trumpets of alarm continue is, I believe, given in a sentence from a post by “PK”:
“The Truth and the Gospel should never be so complicated that it stifles the simple
removal of ill practices that have produced ill shepherds, ill sheep, and thus an ill
Bride.”
Denver and all SGM sheep–look to The Bridegroom, Jesus. He is the way, the Truth and the Life. He is the Rock of our Salvation. He’s not a rule-giver. He is Life.
February 27th, 2010 at 3:58 pm
Is there any audio to this family meeting? Also, how’s the new transplanted SGM pastor from Florida doing there in the N. Denver church? Is he on staff yet?
February 27th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
CD—- no audio from the meeting. We’ll wait and see in regards to your 2nd question.