..whatever that is these days. Sorry for the temporary lock-out. Vacation was awesome.
..whatever that is these days. Sorry for the temporary lock-out. Vacation was awesome.
If there are clear New Testament patterns regarding some aspects of church government, then there will be negative consequences in our churches if we disregard them, even if we cannot foresee all of those consequences at the present time.
— Wayne Grudem
October 25th, 2009 at 11:56 am
You were both missed! However, glad you are refreshed and ready to continue the journey here. May God be glorified in all we say and do
October 25th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
C and J, welcome back! Happy 30th!
October 25th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Welcome back, J & C!
Hope you guys got some much-deserved rest.
October 25th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Cardinel said cardinal
October 25th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
“Welcome back, J & C! Hope you guys got some much-deserved rest.”
Well, Jim and Carole, I hope you didn’t get ANY rest
Our 20th get away anniversary made our honeymoon look like a joke. Looking forward to all God has in store for us in 6 years when we reach 30 years.
It gets better and better with each year I am allowed to spend with my best friend and lover.
Welcome back.
October 26th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Hello,
This is my first time posting here. I don’t attend a SGM church but I have checked one out near where I live and I also have listened to and have presently some of their audio on the Spirit and the Gifts. I also agree with and have learned from SGM’s annotated part of their statement of faith on the Filling or Baptizing of the Spirit. I also have CJ Mahaney’s book The Cross Centered Life.
I have a question regarding charismatic churches in general. I have checked out another charismatic church near my location and I have noticed that charismatic churches seem to have a problem with ‘ authority ‘ or authoritarianism. The mindset or attitude is ‘ Don’t question the Lord’s annointed ‘……an old testament phrase regarding moses and such. This view is that you are to obey the pastor in an unquestioning kind of manner. I have personally noticed that some charismatic churches have this bent or flavor or problem.
I wanted to ask you guys WHY do you think charismatic churches have this problem of authoritarianism? Is it just sensationalism? What are your thoughts?z
i am a continuationist and like SGM’s blend of objective truth and subjective experience but when I go to a charismatic church that has an authoritarian bent it makes me sick. WHY do you think it’s so common within charismatic churches?
October 27th, 2009 at 5:53 am
Learning
Welcome to this blog.
I am not sure why charismatic and other churches have this type of problem. Some of this may go back to Bill Gothard’s teaching on “authority” which has shown to be not as biblical as many first assumed.
What should be noted on the phrase “God’s annointed” is that it goes back to what David said about what he couldn’t do to Saul since Saul had been anointed king by God. What David said is that he couldn’t lay a hand on “God’s annointed” (as in physically touch and harm) and not that he couldn’t say anything against or about “God’s annointed.” David at times certainly said things that were deragatory about Saul including pointing out his sin.
IMO, using the term today is stretching things. The term “God’s annointed” applied when God selelcted one individual to be king over all of Israel. We don’t have that type of situation today. Thus one is exaggerating their position, IMO, to assume they are “God’s anointed” today.
October 27th, 2009 at 6:24 am
Well thought out and written, Steve240.
I remember attending at least three Gothard seminars back in the day. I also remember the tension of my wife and my conversation on the five- hour trip home, with me trying to explain how much better our marriage would be if she would just “get it” about me being her “umbrella” of protection, her “covering!” That whole Gothard “movement,” along with the “Sheparding movement,” seemed to spill into the “churches” at that time, some more than others.
The salient point that Steve was making about “God’s annointed” is true. Additionaly, perhaps our King, the messiah, who died, was buried, and rose again, is the ONLY annointed one left. Maybe the so-called “annointed ones” today are more the self-appointed annointed.
October 27th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
For those of you guys who have left SGM are you guys still believers? Are you guys still continuationists or charismatics when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit? Just curious.
October 27th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Hi Learning,
I am more of a believer and a better believer since leaving SGM, and still a charismaniac who believes in all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
October 28th, 2009 at 12:35 am
Learning, I left SGM a while back, and now my faith is stronger than ever. I’m still a continuationist-charismatic — but now armed with much greater spiritual revelation through scripture, prayer and experience than back in the SGM days.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Learning — I was a Christian before SGM and a Christian afterwards. And I am continuist. I don’t personally know any ex-SGM’ers who’ve renounced faith. Most folks I know who left SGM are passionate about Christ. Just my experience — others may be in different situations. It’s probably all over the map, but I believe that no one can be snatched from His grasp.
October 28th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Learning-welcome to the site!
My wife and I would echo everything Square Peg said.
October 28th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Learning,
It’s been 19 years since I’ve been a member of a SGM church (back then known as PDI) and 16 years since I stepped in one. I consider myself an orthodox Christian but I am no longer an evangelical. That change happened long after I left PDI. I agree with the theology of charismatics but not the way it is practiced in comtemporary churches. When we left PDI years ago we knew one person who lost her faith as a result of PDI conflict but not sure how she is now. Most people that left just became more moderate or progressive, and in my mind, more biblical! Welcome!
October 30th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Hello! anyone home?
October 30th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Hey G.D.,
I like your ryme – “self-appointed-annointed”. How long did it take you to think up that one? Hee-hee.
Learning,
From my experience, the people who have left SGM have become stronger in their faith, not weaker. Freedom in Christ does extraordinary things for a person’s belief system. It doesn’t mean that those of us who left did not experience extreme hardship while we were, in a sense, “deprogrammed” by the Lord. It was painful to admit how much stuff I believed about God, myself, and church, that simply was not true. Oh, how wonderful it is on the other side of the suffering. God’s goodness is sometimes too much to handle!
October 30th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
I like the “DE-programmed” thought, because I am still unlearning much of the spiritual stuff (oh I really mean crap) that I bought into, too often because it was gobbled up by all those around me who I was relying on to point our the error. But we all walked in it as dumb “sheep” and little drones. We feel so much safer when everyone else agrees, even if it is actually wrong. We don’t want to think outside the group, so we believe a lie because of group-think. I am glad to be out od that!
October 30th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
One way I had to be “deprogrammed” was to realize that we aren’t little children, and should never had allowed anyone to treat us as such. We are adults, making adult decisions that no one else should presume to make for us. The only time I should become a little child again is when dealing with the Kingdom of Heaven, as Jesus said. Counsel is good and helpful, but it is only counsel. It should never have been given the weight of “authority” that sgm leaders imposed. I like the latest post on Kris’s site about this subject. It’s a worthy read!
November 24th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Hi Learning,
Welcome. I wandered by today after not posting for a while, and found your question interesting. I think many charismatic churches were formed out of the charismatic and pentecostal movements of the 60s and 70s. The leaders of these movements and the generation of pastors they mentored were untrained and not accountable to external oversight. Their “right” to lead was based on their charisma: speaking and healing gifts, rather than training and being proven servants over period of time. As a result, they have become self-validating and proud.
Having said that, spirtual abuse can and does happen in every denomination.
On the bright side, the charismatic movement has grown up (most of it, at least), and there is a real emphasis on exactly what you are looking for – a balance oharismatic gifts and scripural dilligence. I live in Colorado Springs, and there are several, large charismatic/evangelical churches here that are quite open in thier church culture. I have not been “handled” in an authoritarian way since I left SGM 14 years ago.
Paul faced a similar problem in Corinth with the “Super Apostles”. In evaluating a church carefully observe and talk with the leadership amd members to see if you find some of the qualities Paul used to distiguish himself from illegitimate leaders:
1) He fathered the church with evangelistic work rather than assuming authority after taking over someone else’s work.
2) He willingly submitted himself to widely recognized and proven leaders, and they confirmed his call.
3) His ministry was validated by miracles and persecution.
4) He handled the scripture better than any of his detractors. This is where his early training and his intimate relationship with Chirst showed through.
5) In gving advice, he made a clear distinction between his own opinion, the teaching of Christ, and the “traditions of men”.
7) He was enraged by legalism.
8 . He often worked without pay in order to distinguish himself from those who preached for profit (do they push their own books and seminars as well?). He was content with being poor when it was necessary.
9) He actively mentored and promoted other leaders to pastor his churches so that he could continue to preach to the unreached (Rom 15:20). Apparently he had no need to control an empire. His reward was in the next life.
10) He was devoted to the poor and raised money for other churches.
11) He labored in prayer for the church
12) He loved Christ and His church more than his own life.
Obviously, that is tough list for any of us to meassure ourselves with. However, if you keep praying and searching for the right place ot serve, I know God will honor your desire. Don’t give up!
November 24th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Excellent list! I especially see number one as being of huge importance. Church planting in the NT was done because there were so many new believers brought into the Kingdom. It wasn’t done by moving to a new city, and bringing in all ready solid believers. Why don’t we see this type of evangelism in America much today, I wonder? Maybe it is happening, and I just don’t see it…
November 28th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Hope everyone is enjoying a nice holiday weekend!
December 4th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Hello? Anybody home? I’m still out here in cyberspace. Un-oh, the rapture didn’t happen, did it? Nah, I’d have known about that. Big sigh…and just when I got my new laptop for my birthday, everybody disappears. Hello? Jim? Ellie? Fred? Carole?
December 4th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Hi Canary,
I agree–seems like a ghost town, doesn’t it? Tell me (us) about your new laptop. Does it have Windows 7? What else?
December 4th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Happy birthday, by the way.
December 4th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Thanks, G.D.! Yes, it has Windows 7, but honestly, I liked the previous Windows better. I have to relearn everything. That is frustrating. I’m a terrible creature of habit.
Where do you think everyone has gone? Can you hear an echo in the room? Did something majorly good happen in SGM?
December 4th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Breaking news from CJ- Tiger Woods is a sinner:
http://www.sovgracemin.org/Blo.....Woods.aspx
December 5th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Funny-I live an hour from Orlando. Our local news comes from the Orlando TV stations. I’ve watched some of the coverage of Woods’ accident, but learned more “dirt” from CJ’s blog post than I’ve seen on the news. This, after CJ tells us how a Christian should respond to this story.
Also amazing that CJ has knowledge of the state of Woods’ soul.
CJ, you’ve made a few steps, but have yet to clean your own house. I guess it’s more important to talk about Woods.
December 5th, 2009 at 9:43 am
So true, Jim.
The irony in this article is staggering. To go after another sports figure, charge us not to gossip, and then challenge us to go after the “secret sins” in our own lives while blogs exist for the sole purpose of pointing out the “secret sins” of a ministry he leads in unbelievable.
With all due respect, CJ,do you not see how ridiculous this looks?
December 5th, 2009 at 11:58 am
My mouth dropped open while reading CJ’s article. Well written, points well-taken — but this from a man who has yet to remediate grevious sins perpetrated in the name of the organization he leads? I wanted to cry. Tiger Woods at least stated publically that he’d done something wrong.
SGM has backed over more than its share of flesh-and-blood fire hydrants – and wants to hide from the media by ignoring real, valid problems on the flimsy excuse that blog posts are anonymous. Are they not humbled, grieved, and on their knees asking for forgiveness and help that people have been so deeply wounded and are so fearful of more hurt that they do not dare post under their own names?
I can only conclude, at this point, that “they” — Mr. Mahaney & his underlings – do not WANT to change. Who wants to lose power and control? SGM stopped “preachin’ and went to meddlin’ “ a long time ago.
Oh, but can you imagine the sweet release that would come from loosening the grasp of authoritarianism and trusting the LORD with His people!
Preach the GOSPEL, guys –the GOOD NEWS of Christ — Follow his examples of MERCY and GRACE (unmerited favor) — and define those terms BIBLICALLY when you speak them — and maybe people won’t need to be disciplined, corrected, observed, and shamed so much. Stop demanding immediate sanctification, rejoice in justification, and see what happens when justified sinners hear the true sanctifying words of the GOOD NEWS, delivered MERCIFULLY and full of GRACE!
December 5th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Square Peg, applause, applause! Well said.
I cringed when I read CJ’s “advice” for a man he’d never even met. It was like being in a room where someone is talking badly about a person, while not being a “part of the problem or a part of the solution”. Last time I checked, God was still judge and jury for a human’s soul. And even then, Jesus said He did not come to judge but to save. Guess this is an example of a pastor standing in the “very stead of God”.
December 5th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
I must add that this is an example of the kind of judgment most of us sat under while in sgm. Thank the Lord we are free of it, and under grace!
December 5th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Oh, and one more thing: Tiger Woods, his actions, his marriage, etc. are really none of my business, but since his “sins” are all over the media, shouldn’t I ought to pray for him? Instead of writing an article about him? Telling others not to listen to gossip? While I’m writing gossip? About someone I don’t even know personally? Scratching my head, here.
December 5th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Hello? Anybody home? I’m still out here in cyberspace. Un-oh, the rapture didn’t happen, did it? Nah, I’d have known about that. Big sigh…and just when I got my new laptop for my birthday, everybody disappears. Hello? Jim? Ellie? Fred? Carole?
….. :} ….. hey Canary!!!
Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! New laptop!!!! Happy Birthday, you young thang, you!!!
Ellie
December 6th, 2009 at 12:00 am
And we can be sure that in the coming days we will be in conversations with friends and family where this topic will emerge. (quote from cj)
….we can be sure? ….um…..no, this topic did not emerge and why would it? Not everyone is like YOU, cj. sheesh. @@
December 6th, 2009 at 12:55 am
Hi Ellie! Tweet-tweet from out west! Brrrrr…it is cold here.
December 6th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Hi Ellie and Canary! I’m still here too.
December 6th, 2009 at 10:09 am
Hey!
I’m still here just not “here” on the Refuge as much as I would like to be. Still checking in and reading as I have time, though!
Happy (belated) birthday, Canary!! Hope you had a great day!… and a new laptop?!!! NICE!!
I hope you all are enjoying the holidays!
December 6th, 2009 at 10:38 am
“And we can be sure that in the coming days we will be in conversations with friends and family where this topic will emerge. (quote from cj)
….we can be sure? ….um…..no, this topic did not emerge and why would it? Not everyone is like YOU, cj. sheesh. @@”
I just find this topic amusing! It seems that CJ himself, after giving “direction” to everyone else on how to respond to the Tiger Woods situation, indulged in gossip mongering himself! Where did he get his “facts” from… People magazine? Or maybe anonymous sources in the media? Horrors! Surely not anonymous sources!… we all know how CJ feels about those that hide behind anonymity!!
Is CJ part of the problem and/or the solution?
Living in the Orlando area (where Tiger Woods lives, btw), the only info Tiger himself has shared (that I know of) is that the accident was his fault and that “I have let my family down and I regret those transgressions with all of my heart. I have not been true to my values and the behavior my family deserves,” Woods wrote. “I am dealing with my behavior and personal failings behind closed doors with my family.”
This statement, while it may lead CJ and others like him, to assume that the allegations are true, does not make them true.
Surely Tiger has admitted to much more about his own personal life and deeply regrets his actions. Much more than CJ has done!… and CJ and his organization has hurt a heck of a lot more people than Tiger has! But has CJ ‘fessed up? Has he issued a remorseful, repentant statement? IMHO, Tiger has acted more like a man than CJ has. And CJ is comfortable slinging mud at Tiger??? Wow!
It seems that CJ is more interested in encouraging gossip and promoting “alleged” truths than he is in “thinking the best” and having compassion and empathy for someone who (CJ claims) isn’t a Christian.
Maybe CJ needs to take some of his own advice to heart… from CJ’s own blog post:
“But Tiger is being hunted and hounded by a far greater foe: the consequences of his sin.
And this story should humble and sober us. It should make us ask: Are there any so-called “secret sins” in my life? Is there anything I have done that I hope nobody discovers? Is there anything right now in my life that I should confess to God and the appropriate individuals?
And this should leave us more amazed by grace because there, but for the grace of God, go I.”
CJ… do you even read your own posts?
December 6th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Hi Gracie!
Carole, way to post it. Hope life is going well…:)
December 6th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
Well ya’ll, one statement CJ made in his blog post surprised me: he encouraged people to pray for Tigers’ wife. Pray for her!!!! Ohmygoodness!! If Mrs Woods were a member of SGM, she would be counseled to: first–get the log out of her own eye before she brings forth any sins of her husbands…second—recognize we are all sinners and that nothing comes between a husband and wifes marriage bed—even if she were to separate, she must give him “conjugal rights” or receive church discipline—and thirdly—remember, we are all called to suffer—even the early Christians were sawed assunder (all of these counsels were given by pastors in a large east coast SGM church)
As Carole stated: “CJ and his organization have hurt a heck of alot more people than Tiger has…Has he (CJ) issued a remorseful repentant statement?” —Nope, no public admittance of grievous destructive counseling by he and his welltrained pastors college pastors. For all the trumpeting about their own ‘humility’—humility of OPEN repentance is sadly lacking by Sovereign Grace Ministries. And this is utterly alarming—for either they are truly blind…or they are truly so full of pride they will not admit their destructive counseling practices and errored doctrines. If there is no open public renouncement of their many sins against the Brethren, any ’steps’ they take to rectify their actions is…a whitewash.
December 6th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I’ve been thinking about all this, and realize once again that this was the sort of judgment I sat under in sgm. People, especially leaders, would make judgments without even knowing me. We were judged by what was on the surface. Mistakes were made by leaders who thought things they shouldn’t have. Same with Tiger Woods. What does CJ know of this man except what he heard in the media? What does the media know? Not much. This is a perfect example of why we left sgm – they judged and misunderstood without knowing us, without seeking out the facts, without talking with us personally, only relying on surface judgements. Bad form.
December 7th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
And this story should humble and sober us. It should make us ask: Are there any so-called “secret sins” in my life? Is there anything I have done that I hope nobody discovers? Is there anything right now in my life that I should confess to God and the appropriate individuals?
And this should leave us more amazed by grace because there, but for the grace of God, go I.
sigh…..look even at the economy of words, and how many are spent seeking sin and how many are focused on Jesus, the Lover of our Souls!
Thanks be to God for so great a salvation!
As for CJ seeking out “secret sins”?? holy cow, if he would just admit to the PUBLIC, exposed sins that are so blatant, so grievous! How great a celebration of the mercy and grace of God would be had! Would CJ also suggest we pray for his wife? (excellent point, Waters!) I’m afraid CJ has has lived so long as “immune” to the sin of gossip, in the name of ‘ministy’ that he has forgotten that Tiger is NONE of his business, not part of his congregation or any SGM congregation! Remember that? that you aren’t gossipping if you are in leadership and feel the need or concern to discuss someone else? ahhh…those were the days…. ;o)
I think it’s truly sad to think of the ‘flesh and blood’ hydrants that CJ has run over or instructed others to do the same. Oh, if only he would take his own advice and consider his own sin before commenting on someone else’s. sigh.
Belated Happy Birthday, Canary.
Jim, Carole, belated anniversary blessings!
December 7th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Thanks for the birthday wishes, Defended. You make some good points in your post. I was a victim of leadership gossip that still astounds me to this day. People who hardly knew me spread rumors from one leader to another. The rumors were untrue, but no one bothered to find out FROM ME what really happened.
That’s what the leaven does to the church. Tiger Woods was judged and condemned without all the facts being known. Hardly fair or righteous…
December 8th, 2009 at 9:34 am
You all make some good points about CJ’s blog. Maybe some of you could make those points on his blog? I don’t know about the news in Orlando but up here in DC the Tiger Woods debacle is on every channel and CJ didn’t even begin to touch the gossip that’s going on up here. I do appreciate his call to prayer for both Tiger and his wife but you all are right, how do we know the state of Tiger’s soul? Well, other than the fact that he has admitted to several affairs during his marriage.
December 8th, 2009 at 9:41 am
The edit system doesn’t seem to be working very well. I meant to say that Tiger has admitted to several affairs during his marriage.
If it’s wrong to comment on what he’s doing or to speculate, is it not wrong to speculate on SGM ministries? I’m not talking about what is being revealed by people who have gone through hard times with SGM. I’m just talking about the speculations and second guessing that goes on afterwards.
The Bible says that “even a child is know by his actions.” If that’s true, then Woods’ actions are saying quite a lot about the state of his soul.
December 8th, 2009 at 11:18 am
My point of my comment is that CJ and SGM teach that if you “are not a part of the problem or the solution, then don’t say anything”… they also teach “think the best”… they also teach that gossip is one of the worst sins you could possibly partake in.
This is not what CJ is doing… he is partaking in gossip and sharing it with others, he is not thinking the best about a man he doesn’t know, he is judging him without FACTS from Tiger himself, he is listening to what the media is accusing Tiger of. And we all know that just because the (secular) media reports something, it doesn’t make it true!
Seems to me like CJ is not taking his own counsel to heart.
And, at least Tiger Woods is owning up to what he has done wrong… something that CJ hasn’t done, and he’s had many opportunities. Tiger does not owe any of us an explanation or the details of his life. He is only accountable to those that are directly affected by his actions… his wife and family being of most importance.
So… who is CJ to be casting stones at someone he doesn’t know, not walking in his own teachings and counsel, AND spreading gossip (whether true or not, it doesn’t matter… he is not part of the problem or the solution!… AND he has not spoken to Tiger to get his side of the story!… after all, this is what CJ and SGM teach!!).
CJ has many “things in his life” that he should be “confessing to God and to the appropriate individuals”… at least ‘fess up and be a man like Tiger has. Until he does that, he has no business passing judgment on others.
I’m just sayin’, is all…
December 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am
mack,
I would love to comment on CJ’s blog. If CJ allowed comments on his blog, I’d be an active participant.
When I posted my original comment, I was unaware of Wood’s confession. Again, the weekend of the accident, the focus of the local media (where Wood’s lives) was on the accident itself. I was personally enlightened by CJ. Perhaps I could be accused of living in a cave, as I haven’t followed the story.
I’m with you on speculation re SGM. I’m against it, as I have stated on this blog.
December 8th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
mack,
As of the time of CJ’s posting, Tiger had only admitted to transgressions and had not admitted to an affair.
From CJ’s blog:
‘The story has now escalated into allegations of marital infidelity, and that generated a blog post from Tiger that stated, “I have let my family down and I regret those transgressions with all of my heart.” This statement by Tiger has led most to believe that the allegations of infidelity are true.’
Given that, CJ was effectively publishing the gossip. A member of an SGM church (or at least the one we were members of) would have been raked over the coals for posting anything like that about a member of the church. Maybe it is OK with CJ if the person is well-known/famous?
Why is CJ so quick to point out others sins?
Maybe Matthew 7:3 would be a good scriptural reference to give CJ guidance in making his blog posts, maybe John 8:7.
December 8th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
CJ was effectively publishing the gossip. A member of an SGM church (or at least the one we were members of) would have been raked over the coals for posting anything like that about a member of the church. Maybe it is OK with CJ if the person is well-known/famous?
WW, I think you got close to spot-on:
It’s NOT ok for someone inside SGM to be raked over such gossipping coals as CJ has penned. So I would edit your conclusion to read that it is OK with CJ if the person is well-known/famous and NOT a member of SGM.