I’ve now heard 2 snipets. But, since I”m not part of that church anymore, I don’t feel I can share anything I heard.
I must say…this has brought me to my knees. Literally. Crying out to God to spare that church. They have no idea what they’re under. Well, at least the ones who happily remain thinking that crap is OK.
So where is Glynn Mckenzie pastor? He’s listed as the pastor for the SGM church in Denver (Grace Community), and also a pastor at the church in Gilbert, AZ. Is he double dipping? Isn’t he the pastor that was supposed to plant the church in Colorado Springs and had to bail out?
CD, yes they bailed the CS church. Glynn is spreading his message of legalism…oh, i mean…serving the fine people at the North Denver SGM church. He went there in the spring.
To preface it for those outside of Gilbert, there has been quite a bit of upheaval and departures over the last year or so. Much of this has already been discussed here.
Dave Harvey and CJ came to evaluate the church back in May/June. From what we’ve been told, they interviewed many caregroup leaders, devoted members of the church, the “team” and apparently even a few that have left. This family meeting was to discuss their “findings” with the church.
Rich shared their findings which included –
Input for Rich: they identified the sin of SELF-SUFFICIENCY. (He was not seeking adaquate input from the ‘team’.) He also was in sin for having a DESIRE FOR APPROVAL. (trying to have it both ways – pleasing the flock and sgm, bowed to the opinions of men, listening and trying to please the people instead of just making decisions)
Input for Pastoral Team: team has not spoken in unity (ex. policy on Bible studies.) Need greater fellowship and intimacy as a team so that they can model intimacy to the church better…
Receiving Input from the Church – they have neglected to follow-up in a timely manner with concerns brought to their attention.
Administrating Ministries in the Church – need to grow in communication, make sure the ‘team’ is explaining how to live out the gospel in real life so the congregation better understands…
Celebrating other Gospel-centered ministries – they shouldn’t be communicating elitism. also should be highlighting other local ministries that people can be involved with.
Input for clear communication of Steve Shank’s role in the church. There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.
We were also informed that a law firm was employed to go over everything and make sure that everything was being done in accordance to the law. A lay financial team has also been set up.
And those are the facts. I’ll opine in a later post…
I am still in shock over the meeting on Sunday night. I can’t believe that Rich took full blame for EVERYTHING… What they did to him just grieves my heart. I have never seen a man so broken in my entire life. This is not the same man who came in to take over the senior pastor position 8 some years ago. Until now, I’ve only talked to people who have experienced spiritual abuse, but I felt that I just sat and witnessed it this last week.
One of the pastors stood up and confirmed to the rest of the church that they were in full agreement with Harvey’s assessment of Rich’s sin. It was mentioned that Rich was in heightened accountability and then we were all invited to bring correction if we saw any behavior that looked to be rooted in these two sins of his…
I see a lot of blame-shifting going on. No mention was made of any faults other than “lack of unity” for any of the other pastors including Steve, Glynn or Trey. Maybe they think that no one remembers the increase in heavy-handed sin emphasis, switch in the purpose of caregroups to rooting out sin, segregation of caregroups by age and marital status or narrowed focus of the singles group to ‘getting married’ that just so happened to take place after the arrival of Steve and Glynn. But then, I’m not quite sure if they see any of those as actual problems.
This searching for sin and rooting it out in others has been a major issue. Many of the people that have left this year, are doing so for reasons related to this one and yet, as we all witnessed, this introspection and/or hyper-inspection is still alive and well.
My heart breaks for Rich. I have been praying for him for several months, but that has been kicked up several notches this week. It has been eye opening to see the effects that this culture has had on pastors. Reading about the pastor, Friendly Fire, and then seeing what they have done to Rich and others I know, has brought me to my knees in intercession. There is so much deception and bondage. I am praying that eyes are opened and that many will experience God’s healing and true grace.
“… confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does” – let’s see now. Go to San Diego and de-gift. Go back to San Diego and re-gift. Pour lighter fluid on fires in Chesapeake, Denver, San Fran Bay Area. Start and stop training program for Latin America. Model leadership and communication so poorly in home church that Dave & CJ have to come out. Come on, Steve is supposed to be an “apostle” yet he has this mess right under his nose? Hopefully the flock in Gilbert were spared from hearing CJ speak on “The Happiest Place On Earth” during the A-Team eval.
From the SG website under the heading “A Continuum of Care” we read of apostles that “They help build existing local churches primarily by equipping and caring for pastors” and “Like the father of an adult son, the apostle remains closely related, occasionally present, but always available to assist”. Questions for Dave, CJ, and Steve – how was Steve equipping and caring for the Gilbert pastors? How was he “closely related”? Does he need cue cards to know when to assist?
“Happiest Place on Earth” was taught at the Gilbert church in November of 2007. I found that just by googling it and it’s right there on SGM’s website next to CJ’s bio.
Newlywndd: this is EXACTLY what I want to know. I can see all the other churches you mention not directly pointing to Shank, but how on earth is the church he’s just celebrated 6 years at NOT his responsibility? I used to go to that church. When we arrived (just a few months after Shanks), Rich was the savior of the Gilbert church. I remember, on one of the first Sundays we heard that Rich had been there 1 1/2 years and the church doubled in size since he got there. (I don’t remember him boasting about this…just the facts). That church experienced some years of growth, but then it tapered off and in the last year or so, many people have left. WHY WHY WHY, if Shank has held his office in that building for so long, is there no responsibility placed on him?
Watching: I have been on my knees since I first heard the account you give. I am so sorry. I pray for many eyes to be opened. I pray for Rich and his wife. I pray for the “leaders” of SGM that they would see Shank for what he is. I pray the people will hear that “they are not appreciating him enough” will realize this is putrid. The Bible does NOT teach us to elevate man.
I’m glad you wrote out your account.
Sidney
Nice – more made up “sins” from SGM. Self-sufficiency is NOT a sin, neither is DESIRE FOR APPROVAL – their is NOTHING SINFUL about wanting approval. It depends on how you act on those feelings. The is NOTHING SINFUL about SELF – SUFFICIENCY! So, what team? Did he not get proper “permission” from Shank on something?
More garbage from SGM and it;s narrow-minded, “you have a problem with God if you don’t like what I saw” leaders…..
Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.”
If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?
Gosh, this is just sad, sad, sad. It is so hard to read about the Gilbert meeting, to see one man blamed where many should have been instead. This canary is fighting tears. God help the saints in SGM. God help them!
Here is a quote from Frank Viola’s book, “Who Is Your Covering” that I think speaks the truth about submission and authority in the church:
“While there is no Biblical support for the modern ‘ covering’ teaching, the Scriptures do have something to say about authority and submission. It should be noted, however, that the Bible spills far more ink in telling us how to love and serve one another than it does on how to exercise and submit to authority.”
“In fact, experience has it that when the fundamental aspects of love and servanthood are mastered in an assembly, the issues of leadership and authority amazingly take care of themselves. ( In this connection, those who put undue emphasis on authority and submission are typically more interested in making themselves indispensable to the spiritual growth of others than they are in serving them).” Pg. 49
This is pertinant because SGM is so obsessive about obeying and submitting, following leaders, yet seems to miss the importance of “submitting to one another in love”. Maybe this post would be better over at Survivor’s, where Kris has printed a CJ sermon on submission to authority. Yet, I believe that all the problems we speak of here about experiences in SGM are rooted in the lack of the love of Christ working within the saints, especially some of the leadership. If only there was more focus on Jesus, and on loving one another, instead of obeying and submitting, there wouldn’t be so many wounded sheep. Even the obsessive focus on sin diverts attention from the One we should be imitating.
If we love the Lord with all our hearts, souls, and minds, and love our neighbor as ourselves, wouldn’t that change the way church is presently being practiced? It is so simple.
I totally agree with Canary: “Gosh, this is just sad, sad, sad. It is so hard to read about the Gilbert meeting, to see one man blamed where many should have been instead. This canary is fighting tears. God help the saints in SGM. God help them!”
“Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.”
If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?”
–“Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.” If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?”–
AMEN and WELL SAID and DITTO and GO FOR IT!!!
Here we see SGM upper management — uncensored and exposed — for what and who they are, what they do, and how they think. You shall know them by their fruit.
Here we see more of the fruit of Shank’s “ministry”. You shall know them by their fruit.
Talk about the way to totally de-motivate all the remaining pastors!
Talk about hypocrisy — creating such a dysfunctional culture that strongly pushes and morphs even sincere Christians to live like they rebuked Rich for, yet then calling him on the carpet as the scapegoat.
Scapegoating is an integral part of dysfunctional families, so when SGM calls themselves as a “family” of — gag, choke — churches, they should add the adjective “dysfunctional” before the term “family”. I wish they’d leave off the term “churches” altogether.
_
It is my opinion, which means I could be wrong, that Steve himself is the one who had that part about “appreciation” and “how important Steve is” put in there.
Unfortunately, Steve has forgotten the part about reaping what you have sown.
Watching Closely— Thankyou for posting the facts of the “Family Metting” in Gilbert. When I first saw Jims thread on Gilbert—my heart cried out—’how is Rich, your Senior Pastor, Gilbert???’— And now we have the account….
Watching Closely,I am encouraged to hear you say you were led to pray for Rich the past few months—a friend and I were also. Rich is a “David”…his character is tenderhearted and genuine—perhaps this is why he has been charged with “trying to please the flock AND SGM..listening and trying to please the people instead of just making decisions.” We say— Thank you Lord, for Rich—who desires to hear his people instead of discarding them…how difficult for this young man to have walked these years under the religous chokehold of the SGM leadership…and how convenient for Glynn to be in Denver whilst Rich takes the punches for the fruit of Glynns heavyhanded religiosity.
As for the charge of “Self-Sufficiency”…This man, Rich R, is a genuinely humble man and not a CJ mini-me. Probably every person on the face of the earth, saved and unsaved struggle with self-sufficiency on occasion—but this is NOT a stronghold in Richs life. Remember, he has been extremely ill the past 10 years,hospitalized occasionally, constantly in physical pain,amplified by chronic fatigue. He has learned to depend on his Savior for the strength of every day…and he doesn’t complain, does he??? He has a quiet joy, doesn’t he, Gilbert church??
How deeply grievous to hear that “one pastor stood up and confirmed to the rest of the church that they were in full agreement of Richs sin” —How utterly alarming that the ‘team’ of pastors laid blame at Richs feet—— there is no, none, zilch, discernment in those who worship the SGM idol of the gospel of sin management.——People of Gilbert church, I pray you will rise up—that you will awaken—that you will cry out to God for His answers and Light and take courage to fight for Truth. We are brothers and sisters in Christ—-how shall we walk with our brother who has been stoned by the the pharisees???
To Steve Shank, CJ Mahaney, and Dave Harvey—you have openly, in the public light of day, endighted yourselves by bringing forth accusations and charges that are like vapor,against Rich Richardson. For now it is blazingly obvious—YOU HAVE NO DISCERNMENT—YOU HAVE NOT DISCERNED THE HEART OF A MAN WHO TRULY CARES FOR HIS SHEEP/PEOPLE. -
Appallingly unbelievable that Rich is charged with “not having input for clear communication of Steve Shanks role in the church”………Say what?????— Wouldn’t Steve, who is in his 50′s, have some responsibility in leading and modeling his role (whatever it is) for the church he has been attending the past 5 years so that people aren’t “confused” about him?????—Who is questioning and EVALUATING Steve Shank on his shabby,drop the ball, lack of discernment and engagement with the peoples crying out for help in the documented cases of Chesapeake, Denver , Gilbert, andSan Diego???????
What does this mean “a law firm was employed to go over everything and make sure that everything was being done in accordance with the law.”— Gilbert church—you have the right,as people who tithe and are members of this church to SEE full documentation of all the fine writings of this law firms paperwork for YOUR church.
Again, SGM, CJ Mahaney, Dave Harvey, Steve Shank—you have been found out–you have caused weights to be added to the scales —so that your presentation of the ‘evaluation’ of Rich will appear a certain way to the people of the Gilbert church…
“A false balance is an abomination to the Lord,
but a just weight is His delight.” Prov 11:1
Holy Spirit, BREATHE on and through your people in the Gilbert church—sift out deceit, and the dry bones of religousness. Cause the fire of Your Living Word to separate good from evil……raise up men in the congregation whom You see as “Gideons”…cause your people to hunger and thirst for righteousness and to know, once agin the unfailing love of the Father God…and to be carried in that stream of the great love of God that they may be warriors,taking courage and Your strength and discernment to rise up. Thankyou, Lord, that you know the hearts of those who love and serve you without guile—Your servants, Rich and Tiffany—pour out Your wondrous Presence and healing balm upon them tonight and the following days……deliver them, O God, and continue to bring forth Your perfect will,plan and purpose in their lives—which You have established from the very foundation of the earth. Protect and provide for them, Father,…move on their behalf and show Yourself strong—that You may be glorified through them.. In the Name of Jesus….Jesus….Jesus…..Amen
Watching Closely – Please remind me of who the “team” currently is. Is it comprised only of Rich, Steve, Jon, and Trey?
- Glynn has moved on to CO
- Chris has moved on to Peoria
- Trey has been hospitalized much as of late and I would be surprised to hear if he is actively working on staff
- Brian has left the church
- Jeff was fired (shhhh!) – I mean, stepped down
- Wayne hasn’t been considered part of the “team” for years.
Am I missing anyone? Who is this “team” that Rich has not submitted to?
I’m getting really irritated by all of this ongoing deception. I’m seriously considering openly sharing our story. I’ve finally reached the point (BY GOD’s GRACE) that I really don’t fear the fallout anymore. We’ve lost most all of our friends already and those who we haven’t are either true friends or they need to hear the truth openly anyway. I don’t know if it will help a single soul at Gilbert, but I do know that I have a freedom in Christ that I have not had in years and if even one of the members who remain at Gilbert would be helped by the truth then it would be worth it to share it openly. I’m praying about it. The bondage to the legalism and man-made pseudo-religion is appalling and I’m sick and tired of the “team” not being held accountable for the damage and destruction they’ve caused so many families.
Canary, Thankyou for your excellent post last night at 9ish.
And this part of a quote from F Vilas’ book: “…it should be noted, however, that the Bible spills far more ink in telling us how to love and serve one another than it does on how to exercise and submit to authority.”— That would be— the BIBLE.. shows us how to love and serve one another—not SGM man-made ‘doctrines’. And Beloved of God—thankyou for reminding us all of Jesus’ exhortation to examine the fruit………we pray for eyes to see and not be deluded by deceptive waxed artificial robotic man-madefruit……
Be Bold and Waters,
I am so with you regarding Rich and how he is being/has been treated. I know that my chronic illness went COMPLETELY away as I left SGM. Praise God! I am healed because I am healed of the sickness of SGM. Praise God! I can only pray the same for Rich. I’ve called him a “puppet’ because he seems to just go along with what those “under” him in leadership tell him what to do. Who knows if he goes along with what Shank says cuz who knows really what Shank does.
Speaking of Shank…and his fallout. Oh man…we arrived in Gilbert just 8 months after the Shanks did. I don’t think I have ever heard him give an original message. In fact, I had family in town when he taught one Sunday and a young family member…a teenager…said “hey! I’ve heard this message! CJ taught it!” UGH!
I’ve been lifting up Gilbert this week. I pray that the Lord will open many eyes. I pray that the Lord will open Rich’s eyes. I pray that the Lord will take him out. I have been praying for the Jacob family since Keith was fired. They are now under Glynn and I pray that they are able to discern his evil message. I pray that. Because there are MANY very wonderful churches out there! MANY!
Be Bold, About sharing your whole story…I have considered the same thing. One day perhaps I will. I don’t have the fear anymore.
Where is Matthew Geesling? I would love to hear what he has to say about this. After all, Rich is his nephew. Where does his allegiance lie? Family or denomination??? Matthew, please come visit us again.
Sid
Beloved of God said: “Talk about the way to totally de-motivate all the remaining pastors!”
It is also a way to get/keep the remaining pastors quaking in their boots! After seeing what happened to Rich, they will be even more afraid to buck the SGM leaders and more motivated to follow the SGM leaders expectations and “rules”. I’m sure they don’t want what happened to Rich to happen to them! Ahhhh… the SGM “system” at work…
INC said to me once that some men are in the “business” of pastoring, and that some are called from the womb to care for God’s people. It sounds like, from your description of Rich, that he is of the latter. We must hope that this is the Lord’s way of setting him free from the leaven that has grown so much in SGM. Maybe this will be a good thing for Rich and his family, in the end. I think it is wonderful and courageous that you and others have come on here in defense of Rich.
Also, I remember being fearful of sharing my story. Yet, when I did, I felt freed from the past. It was empowering. I hope you and Sidney can post your stories. It might help so many, and also validate once again what many of us have all ready expressed.
To everyone: I read yesterday that there is a Muslim gathering today near the Capitol, where Muslims wish to show America “how they pray”. Though I support freedom of religion in our country (i.e. not forced religion), I was saddened to think of how all the bondage and leaven in our Christian churches today have so watered down the gospel, that the Muslim religion can gain such a foothold in America.
What we do here is important. We are identifying, not only in SGM but other churches and in our own lives, the strongholds that keep believers from walking like Jesus. The leaven needs to be purged from our lives, by the Holy Spirit. From our churches. From our leaders. Only then will we have the true gospel, in all its power, to offer to those who do not know the Way.
I was at the meeting and I would concur with most of what has been said about it. I would say one thing in John’s defense, he was the pastor that stood and confirmed Rich’s “sin”, he did say (and I can’t tell you exactly word for word) that this wasn’t the definition of Rich’s ministry. While yes they have seen this supposed sin it did not define Rich.
I and my husband left the meeting scratching our heads, about the aforementioned things but also a few others like do we really need to be “equipped” by the pastors to have a Bible study? For us the SGM bubble has been popped, PTL, (we’ve been part for some 20+ years) but we do feel like we should stay, for now. We will no longer question what we know God is saying to us and we will feel the freedom to call others out on their legalism or misuse of God’s word.
We did agree with a lot of what was said like, know what God has called you to and do it. Being clear about it will help others determine if this is the church for them. Don’t waver, if God says to you this is what I want this church to do then do it, without worrying about offending people. My one fear in all of this is that the pastors, mainly Rich, would become to concerned with the preferences of the people. I for one think that God calls churches and people to different things. We are all part of the same body but we have different things to contribute. I hope that this makes sense. ?
I cannot say much, but this I will say:
I think it is very sad that Rich is being condemned for eating, breathing and living SGM. He is a product of his environment and training. And although I love he and his wife dearly (rich, tiff, if you are reading this, I love you guys so much) on one hand I am praying that this opens their eyes. I am just so disheartened for them. Rich is one of the most tender-hearted people I know. He has worked very hard at leading the church and “following” SGM. I think it is so, very sad and very wrong that someohow he gets “thrown under the bus” and Glenn and Steve hold no responsiblity? Where is the “team” and support all of us assume is there on the pastoral staff for heaven’s sake? I just think it is IMPOSSIBLE to hold one man respsonsible unless he has been completely deceitful in his lack of sharing with the other pastors, but just like Denver and Chesapeake….where is the discernment? I have said too much and may have shot myself in the foot….but geesh, I just bounce in and out of being very angry and hurt for a friend. I pray Rich and Tiff come out in deliverance and courage to see things for what they are…..TRUTH.
Mom,
You sound like I did in the weeks following the Lord opening my eyes about SGM. It happened a little over a year ago and it was a very interesting time in my world. I am praying for you.
As for Rich, in our couple years at the Gilbert church, the only beef I had with him was that he made fun of his wife from the pulpit and I didn’t like that. Also, he did seem like a “yes man” and not so much of a “senior pastor.”
Shankings …or “Harveyings” as this one is better described…are never easy.
Sidney
I think someone above wrote that they suspected the legalistic and/or authoritarian model of SGM stifles love.
YES!!!! Indeed, YES!!!
Do a search-engine search with the phrase “legalism kills love”
_
Which is the following paragraph describes the SGM model of leadership in the upper management (and how the pastors are treated and trained by upper-management to be)?
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Regarding the above article on Super Apostles – Truth Watch believes this article is essential reading for all discerning Christians…. http://www.truthwatch.info/mod.....38;sid=114
Thank you all for the comments and prayers offered up for this church. Many eyes have been opened and seeing the freedom and sweet fellowship that God is extending to his precious children as they yearn for, seek and find the Light is incredible!
Seeking, to answer your question, when Rich invited feedback and correction, he didn’t mean right then and there. Although there was a Q&A afterwards and there were actually some challenging questions that were put to them instead of the usual “light” one’s.
And “Mom” was right, as far as I can remember, when she said that Jon mentioned something about how this did not characterize him as a person. The sad thing is that although they say that, it usually does. I know that has been the case in my own life to some degree. Once you are pegged as one thing in the eyes of those over you, it is hard to move past it… But maybe this is one of the things they are trying to move past.
While some of the changes discussed at the mtg are commendable (seeking to promote other organizations, listen to the congregation and respond better, etc) we are still troubled, as “mom” is, by their response on Bible studies. It smacks of control, albeit more subtle. They reiterated that Bible Study has no place in small groups because it would interfere with “fellowship”. (huh?????)
I can think of at least 8 individuals who were prohibited (some subtly and others outright shut down) in the last few years, from meeting with others in their home to study the Bible or even do a discussion group on a book. These are godly individuals who are/were highly esteemed in the church. One person was told by a pastor that he could lead a Bible study only if it was for people outside the church because they, “the pastors” were responsible for under their care and needed to oversee what was being taught. When asked about people being allowed to go to Bible studies outside of the church, this pastor responded by saying that he wasn’t thrilled that people would be leaving their “covering”, but that they wouldn’t prohibit it.
And that’s the real crux of the problem, now isn’t it? Though perhaps some of the most outward and obvious forms of control are being addressed and reined in, if the underlining error is still in place, then the foundation is still badly flawed and the abuse, even if it goes underground for awhile, will resurface.
Mature believers can’t have Bible studies in their own homes? Or they should only have them for the lesser, non-SGM Christians? Can’t risk your unregulated Bible studies tainting the chosen? Not thrilled about believers going to a non-SGM Bible study? Afraid of leaving their covering? These are FRIGHTENING stances. There would be no church in China if these controlling “doctrines” were right.
The answer for SGM isn’t a bandaid. Their foundation is cracked and poison has seeped in. They are going to have to lay still and let the Lord cut them to the core to get the poison out. Will they? Do they have the humility? Will they risk the horrifying possibility of having to admit they were wrong all these years, especially in light of their staunch adamancy they were right? Can they ever see and admit that their wrongness has caused a world of grief and pain to families all over the United States and even abroad? Big stakes for the big dogs of SGM.
Between these conversations here and the discussion on survivors regarding C.J.’s August 2009 message on the Happiest Place on Earth, I am not optimistic at the moment. Can they STILL be talking about submission and pastoral authority in such an unbalanced way? How is this possible? It makes me think they see some of their authority doctrines being applied wrongly by individual pastors, while still thinking the doctrine itself is sound. That’s not going to get the job of rooting out the errors done.
“It makes me think they see some of their authority doctrines being applied wrongly by individual pastors, while still thinking the doctrine itself is sound. That’s not going to get the job of rooting out the errors done.”
Well said. The heart of the matter is still the heart of the matter.The root will grow into trees that produce the same fruit.
“A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].” Gal. 5:9, Amplified
Gracie, it’s okay that you speak with intensity. This is a subject that we should feel “intense” about!
How about believers baptizing other believers in home pools? Our church used to do this sort of thing but in recent years we’ve been asked to only do it at the church baptism which happens haphazardly. The reason given was that baptism is a church sacrament and should only be done when the whole church gets together so everyone can be blessed.
Mom,
Thankyou for writing and filling in more information about the meeting and your insights. We are so thankful to hear of one more family who is out of the “sgm bubble”. I pray God will strengthen you by the power of His might to walk in courage, speaking the Truth of His Word—which IS sharper than a “2-edged sword”!…Yes, as you reported was stated at the meeting, we can surely all agree that we should “know what God has called us to and do it and define these things in our lives…” etc etc..I guess they were reminding the people of a basic foundational Christian truth.
However, evidently the focus of the meeting was to bring correction to Rich.. to the crescendo application of announcing his “heightened accountability (status) and inviting the congregants to point out his sin.” Thereby showing they had come to the conclusion that all/most of Gilberts upheavals in the past months have been due to Richs’ identified 2 sins.–This would be error and scapegoating and UNJUST weights and balances.
Although all the pastors, including Rich, were evidently in agreement with these charges,it is a travesty of a picture. And does Jon not know that most people ALREADY know that these sins absolutely donot “define” Rich…and as Watching Closely pointed out, when sgm pegs someone with a title, that usually stays. This is where the fight for truth and discernment will be necessary for the congregants of Gilbert.
Could it be that Richs’ God-given gifting of a tender heart and a desire to value and truly hear people has collided with the authoritative legalism and doctrinal heavy-handedness that upper management of sgm requires???? If so, one could only imagine the turmoil that would bring in a man who genuinely is a servant.
Because we were a part of sgm for 19 years, we chewed on the man-made doctrines and requirements,which, unbeknownst to us, dampened the light of Christ in us. I cannot imagine what that would be like for one surrounded by and in pastoral leadership. God have mercy.
Bottom line for us is this– This Family Meeting MANIFESTED the legalistic and UNDISCERNING actions of the “Evaluation Team”– Mahaney,Shank,Harvey– they have created this Pharisee culture and so of course they can only be expected to see through their legalistic eyes. –As Jim said , “The heart of the matter is still the heart of the matter. The root will grow into trees that produce the same fruit.” They are “keeping the main thing the main thing” (CJ’s much hailed expression) —but the main thing is all about their control and legalism, and its scarey. —– We, as the Body of Christ must remember that our journey on earth IS a continuous battle…to fight the good fight of the faith and that we donot wrestle against flesh,but principalities and powers of darkness; and we are to engage in the pulling down of strongholds—but how can any of this be done if at FIRST we donot SEE the truth of the battleground???????—
I was reading in Revealtions of the message to the “7 Churches”. Remember at the end of each proclomation there is this: “He who has an ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches..” In the Message Bible the contemporary language version reads–” Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches.”— We as Christians carry a responsibility—we must wake up from where we may lapse into sleep—and stay awake—and fight…as Nehemiah exhorted “for our sons and daughters”. Praying for Gods people in the church in Gilbert, to “Ask….Seek….Knock”— for Truth, for answers, for discernment, for courage to see what needs to be seen.— And meanwhile, allow Holy Spirit to reveal any sin issues to a man, And consider…and ask the Lord how encouragement and life-giving words would be extended to a pastor who has endeavored to give of his life to Gods people—- because he loves Jesus.
Mack,
You cannot baptize each other. A pastor has to baptize. Do you know why? Because they have to make sure you are actually saved. You cannot be baptized unless you have been tested and proven your salvation because you were tempted by sin…some ‘big’ sin and didn’t give in.
Covenant Life’s website is very clear about this. They even have scripture to back it up. www.covlife.org and go on the “about us” section…there, right below the location, hours, pastor bios, there is a tab for baptism.
Yes, it’s so important for them to CONTROL it so tightly that it actually has its own tab.
There is even a “faq” pdf for parents who are confused.
I know many people who were re-baptized because they got baptized, then sinned “for a season.” This “sinned for a season” is proof positive that they were never actually saved.
Try living that lie for most of your life. It’s the pit of legalism in the heart of a believer who was made to feel like they’re not.
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south[4] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:
“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth. 33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”[5]38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
8:36 Some manuscripts add all or most of verse 37: And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Excellent verses, Jim! So clear. It is awful what men have done to ruin simple faith, today. Pharisees are still alive and well (I should know. I use to be one). What about when Jesus said that we should not turn away the little children from Him? My kids, when they were young, believed in Jesus and were baptized. They could not explain all the theology behind Christianity, only that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God. As adults, they continue to believe so. According to what is being posted here, young children would be turned away from baptism by SGM today. Is this true?
Bible: Get saved. Get baptized.
SGM: Get saved. Prove it by not sinning. Apply to your pastor. Have an interview with your pastor. Prove your salvation. Pastor approves you to get baptized. Next time the church decides to hold baptism ceremonies, get baptized.
Is there some disconnect here?
You are all right on your views of the way SGM does baptisms. I could play the devil’s advocate and say that the answer to the Acts 8 story of Phillip and the eunuch is that Phillip was considered a “leader” and so had the authority to baptize whenever he wanted. Any thoughts on that?
How did I believe for all those years that the message was “grace?”
I actually had NO idea what grace was.
Till I stopped WORKING so hard to receive it.
Whew. Being in SGM is so much stinkin’ work.
How sad. Jesus never intended it to be such.
Poor Rich…imagine the work he’s going to have to do now. No wonder he’s had such health issues. We need to be praying for his health as he’s WORKING.
Sidney – what is so horrific about Baptism? I read the page you directed us to, and see nothing un-Biblical. http://www.covlife.org/about/baptism
You prefer infant baptism? You prefer non Believers being baptized so that they can feel accepted? What exactly about Baptism annoys you?
Read the first line – It is SYMBOLIC.
What Baptism Symbolizes
Baptism uniquely portrays the believer’s union with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-5). Therefore, at Covenant Life we practice baptism by immersion, which vividly pictures these realities. Romans 6:4: “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
Who Should Be Baptized
Baptism points to the beginning of the Christian life (Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:38) and displays one’s commitment to turn from sin and trust in Christ for salvation. For this reason, we do not baptize infants. If you were baptized as an infant, we would ask that—in obedience to Scripture and as part of becoming a member of Covenant Life Church—you be baptized as a believer. Acts 8:12: “…when they believed…they were baptized, both men and women.”
A Candidate for Baptism Should Be Able To:
a. Communicate the content of the gospel as well as an expression of faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
b. Evidence godly sorrow over sin, followed by repentance which leads to the fruit of the Spirit.
c. Examine himself and the condition of his soul (1 Cor. 11:27-32).
d. Demonstrate a willingness to turn away from the world and instead live a life keeping God’s commands and loving God’s church (1 John 2:15-17; 5:1-5).
e. Exhibit fruit which proceeds from regeneration (Gal. 5:22-23).
When my children were young and asked to be baptized, I wanted to make sure they knew what it was all about since so many kids want to do what all their friends are doing and it means nothing. I still remember summer camp as a kid, not wanting to feel left out, I tossed my “piece of wood” in the fire signifying that I wanted to give my life to Christ. What I didn’t want to be was the only kid holding his “piece of wood”.
So when my son asked me at 6, and we talked and I was sure it was something he understood, he was baptized in a SGM church, and I (not the pastor) baptized him.
Paul,
You don’t go to CLC if you are currently seeing children being baptized. And you don’t go to most of the rest of SGM churches, because in the last few years, they have ALL been adopting CLC’s new Baptism “mandate.”
CLC’s documents are clear. THEY DO NOT BAPTIZE CHILDREN younger than their prescribed “age of understanding.” They basically make that age somewhere in the young to mid teens…based on their assertion of the teen’s maturity level.
The problem: It’s no longer a relationship with my Savior. It’s now a relationship PLUS a whole bunch of crap. Where is the sweetness of my simple faith in Jesus? No more. It has to be brain surgery or it is suspect.
Sidney
Paul,
Thanks for the sermon.
Jim, thanks for clarifying.
Paul, for the record, I do NOT believe in infant baptism. I do NOT believe in young children being baptized when they make a profession of faith. What I DO believe is that you can be baptized before you have PROVEN your salvation….based on a set of rules set forth by your pastors…who are, by the way, NOT objective.
I watched several people at CLC get re-baptized because they had sinned.
And where CLC muddies the water is the way that they grade sin. I have been in bondage and sin to food for most of my life. (I am not overweight now, by the grace and freedom of the Lord, and have never been more than 30 pounds overweight, so you wouldn’t look at me and say I had a “sinful eating” problem.) I have been a christian for a long while and I was baptized 12 years ago. But, I only recently got convicted of the fact that I was totally given over to my eating sin. Most areas of my life were affected because of the darkness of my eating bondage. Do I need to be re-baptized. Based on conversations I’ve had with friends at CLC, I probably do. I probably was not saved in those years.
If you don’t agree with this assessment, ask the people who did drugs, had affairs or sexual sin, etc…ask them. Their sin is NO DIFFERENT THAN MINE!!!!!
Do I need to be re-baptized? Because one could say that I did not overcome. I did not bear fruit. I was totally captivated by food and I chose food over the Lord for many years.
That’s just like a teenage boy who I know who is in CLC. I remember the joyous day when he was 5 or 6 and he called me to tell me he got saved. And I remember many years of “fruit” in his capacity in his life. Now, as a teen, he has gotten himself in trouble because he sinned. He isn’t allowed to get baptized. He isn’t allowed to take communion. He’s now been deemed an unbeliever…why? Because he sinned in a way that CLC does not believe a saved person can possibly sin. He has conviction of sin. He has fruit in his life. He also sins.
And now his salvation is disqualified.
THIS is what I have a problem with, Paul. A MAJOR problem. This is pure, unadulterated legalism. This sets people up to have a convoluted perspective of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This sets people up to have ZERO confidence in their salvation.
Trust me. I know. I lived that lie for 12 years. Praise God, I am free from it! Praise God, I know that, even though I sinned for many years, Jesus had not left me. And when the Holy Spirit was convicting me, that was really the Holy Spirit. When CLC teaches that you cannot have conviction of sin without the Holy Spirit, they better STOP judging people’s salvation based on their outward fruit. This is very confusing.
Jim, you said “As an aside, please compare CLC’s “a candidate should…” with the Scripture cited by THEM.Acts 8:12: “…when they believed…they were baptized, both men and women.”” True,
Acts 8:12 say that ….when they believed…. they were baptized” Agreed, but who told them to be baptized to begin with and why was John the Baptist running around yelling repent and be baptized?
It is not a requirement for salvation (the thief in the cross never got sprinkled, unless it rained that day) but it is done in obedience and with a desire to show others that you have been buried with Christ and raised again. To see the tears flow when a new believer comes up out of the water and is not doing something because he HAS to do it, is a site to behold. (I was one of those ex-druggies baptized in a jacuzzi during a Bible study at an AOG, and yes, the Holy Spirit fell on me as I came up out of the water – no one told me what to expect and what would happen. They just said “you want to be baptized since you area believer now?” They had already seen that I exhibited A,B,C,D and E in CLCs booklet)
Any church CLC, Baptist, etc is going to have a new believers class that will talk about baptism, communion, and yet because it is attached to SGM it must be heretical.
Why is everything about SGM so suspect? They use guitars and drums in worship, should they now be tossed out with all the other SGM heresy? Of course not, so why so quick so jump on a bandwagon over something that has been a part of Christianity going back to when John said “I am not worthy to tie your sneakers?” ? (NIV paraphrased)
Canary September 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
According to what is being posted here, young children would be turned away from baptism by SGM today.
Canary, I see so many kids being baptized, and it is left up to their parents to decide if they are ready, or just doing it since “Jimmy went in the water, I want to go to”.
Will kids go to Hell if they drink the wine and eat the bread? No – I did it all the time and it was just fun to get the grape juice. Meant nothing, and my parents i don’t believe are going to rot in Hell over this . I was infant baptized at an Episcopal church, but it wasn’t until at this Bible study baptism was explained (sort of 3what CLC does in their teaching so the new believer will know why baptism exists.
Canary – has your mom listened to Michael Savage yet? Gone to a Tea Party?
Sydney” That’s just like a teenage boy who I know who is in CLC. I remember the joyous day when he was 5 or 6 and he called me to tell me he got saved. And I remember many years of “fruit” in his capacity in his life. Now, as a teen, he has gotten himself in trouble because he sinned. He isn’t allowed to get baptized. He isn’t allowed to take communion. He’s now been deemed an unbeliever…why? Because he sinned in a way that CLC does not believe a saved person can possibly sin. He has conviction of sin. He has fruit in his life. He also sins.
And now his salvation is disqualified.
THIS is what I have a problem with, Paul. A MAJOR problem. This is pure, unadulterated legalism. This sets people up to have a convoluted perspective of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This sets people up to have ZERO confidence in their salvation.”
Sydney, where are this teenage boys parents? I have 2 sons. One now considers himelf an atheist at 28. Should he ever repent, it would be his decision whether to be baptized again. That’s what I did in the jacuzzi in my mid 20′s – I did the religious thing as a kid, but realized my need for a Savior and “owned” it for myself (it was no longer mommy and daddy’s religion) (Now – we could get into the whole “was I really a Christian doing drugs all those years, and what if I had died, since I “asked Jesus in to my heart at summer camp” but that is something entirely different)
As far as this example of this teen who has sinned and repented. He should take communion and his parents should be the judge of whether there is a true walk with God and repentance. I wouldn’t put up with it in my SGM church and would be vocal in the office, if it were my son. How can his salvation be disqualified? Murderers on crosses are forgiven. Are Mom n Dad silent? Maybe more knocking on doors, and confronting up to the next level, and less complaining to each other on the internet might see change.
As far as this teen who is now considered a non Christian, even after repenting,I’m going to email CLC and see if this is happening. I will get back to you when I get a response.
“Maybe more knocking on doors, and confronting up to the next level, and less complaining to each other on the internet might see change.”
I agree and disagree. I want to see more knocking on doors-more open communication with sgm pastors from the membership, but don’t fall for the party line that the blogs have had no impact.
Paul,
His parents are there. In the past, I know that they did go against CLC’s “rules” and allow him to take communion. I’m not sure now. They are obedient CLC members. They do not question their authority. They trust what is being taught them. Sadly, they are sorely mistaken. I have asked the parents if they believe he is saved. If they believe he was saved before he “fell into sin.” I THINK they believe he was and is. But, it’s hard to tell because, since I left SGM, they are very careful about what they tell me since they know I see all the horrible truth about SGM.
I know of past youth who have also fallen into sin. Here’s the deal, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them who remains in CLC believes that they were never saved before having fallen into sin, repented and “gotten saved again.” They are led to believe that they could not possibly have been saved and had sex with that classmate or gotten high with that other classmate or whatever the “sin of the day” might be. There is so much history of this. They have shared it from the pulpit. Pastors’ children have been under “church discipline” and then been restored. You cannot deny this.
Unless you’ve never been in CLC and didn’t live out those things. Perhaps that’s the case for you, Paul. Perhaps you are in a different SGM church. But, ask anyone at CLC if there have been generations of teens who have done this same thing.
That’s why they instituted this whole new procedure for being allowed to be baptized and thus being allowed to take communion.
As far as I know, they do not have “communion police.” BUT, when you are taught something is “biblical” and you don’t have it in you to question what you’re taught…ie…follow like blind sheep….then you will go along with what is set out before you.
Oh, and as for “confronting up to the next level…” Paul, I wrote a letter to CJ. He knows me. He has known me for many years. I received a modified form letter in response.
I will be responding to the form letter response.
Why are you wasting your time on blogs, Paul? Why are you “telling on the bloggers” by “calling CLC?” Don’t waste your time, bud. That’s silly.
Yes, my Mom has heard Mike Savage, and yes, she has been to a tea party. She is presently working with a tea party group in town to organize the next one. Thanks for asking!
Oh, and as for baptism, I think it is entirely up to the parent whether a child is ready for baptism. That should be enough for a pastor. But, that’s my opinion according to what I see in scripture.
Sydney “Why are you wasting your time on blogs, Paul? Why are you “telling on the bloggers” by “calling CLC?” Don’t waste your time, bud. That’s silly.”
I am not “telling on the bloggers” If there is some truth to this, I’d like an explanation from someone at CLC. If we all stopped knocking on doors and just wrote about our experiences to each other on blogs there would be little change. My knuckles are raw from knocking and will continue until God calls me to move on. I believe if everyone exerted as much energy in staying and going together with their complaints you might see some change.
And, Jim, I do think the blogs are having an impact. It is sad that it has come to this. I am sure this was not your first choice.
Canary – keep your eye on you Mom, Savage and Tea parties are a dangerous combo – before you know it , she’ll be burning her Social Security Card and stop wearing her girdle
It’s interesting to see Consevatives “protest” compared to the Anarchist Left wing G8 summit folks, isn’t it? I’ll bet there wasn’t a piece of litter on the ground in Washington DC after the million person tea party. (CNN said there were only 10,000, and spent most of the camera time looking for the fringe right wing “Tim McVey”kooks)
WOW! I guess I opened a can of worms when I brought up baptism. Great discussion though. We baptized both of our kids in a hot tub at the beach after they both confessed faith in Christ. One of them is following the Lord and the other is not. Don’t quite know what to think of that but I’m going to let God sort it out. Our discernment is not the issue, God’s love is. We are present members of an SGM church but basically follow our own convictions in many areas. So far we haven’t been called on the carpet about it but then we ain’t been rockin’ the boat either.
Paul
As I have said before, one of the things these blogs do is give some exposure and in essence some form of accountability to what SGM Leaders have done. With how SGM defines what they consider gossip and slander has worked very well to keep a lot of their actions (including inappropriate actions) secret. A lot of regular members are in the dark with what the leaders have done. Thus these SGM leaders apparently have been able to abuse a lot of sheep with immunity.
I am sure that without this and the SGM Surivors blog, the leaders would continue and maybe even increase the level of abuse that they have done for years. Now with these blogs they are at least reluctant or have to think about what they do since they know that some of their actions will be published on these blogs for various people to scrutinize. For example, I am sure what the leadership did this year at SGM Chesapeake would have been much more egregious had their not been this blog reporting on what went on.
You mention taking more effort to write the leaders. I have written a few leaders and really haven’t gotten anywhere. I get the impression that these leaders are just about disregarding what is being brought up on these blogs. Hopefully I am wrong.
Have you read about Noel and Grizzly’s story on the SGM Survivors blog? They met with the leaders of the Fairfax SGM Church about how these leaders handled their 3 year old daughter being molested by a 15 year old male member. Reading their account isn’t that encouraging and makes one wonder what good it would do for others to try and approach leadership. As a number of people have shared, SGM Leaders have a big tendency to “turn the tables” on someone that goes to them. The SGM Leaders rather than address the issue want to point out problems they see in the member.
Below are links to Noel’s story: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....wpmp_tp=10 http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=583
This whole topic just slashes open a whole can of ugliness for me.
First of all – I feel the need to address Paul’s copied verbiage from the CLC website on baptism. The very word “candidate” makes me want to hurl. Candidate definition: applicant, job applicants, job-seeker, interviewee; contender, contestant, nominee. What, of ANY, of those words should be used to describe someone who is opening their heart to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and desiring to be baptized in Him and to walk with Him. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that a person needs to submit themselves for consideration on whether or not they are worthy of baptism. WHO is the judge and jury on THAT loaded decision? There is such carefully crafted wording that the pastors use to describe their “great responsibilities” as the shepherds of our souls. So do these ridiculous authoritarian leaders in SGM actually want to be held responsible on “that day” (to borrow a CJ-ism) for turning BELIEVERS into skeptics of their own salvation?!?! Do they want to have to stand before God and explain why so many BELIEVERS were not baptized simply because they, in their OWN human wisdom did not deem them to be worthy candidates…It’s not only appalling, but it’s wickedly sinful, unbiblical, and I’m going to go so far as to say of Satan, to make any believer, who loves the Lord and wants to submit their life to Him, prove himself to a Pastor (who in all likelihood doesn’t even know him well) who holds the key to whether or not he can be legitimately accepted into Christ’s family. It’s wicked.
The other thing that really gets me about this subject is causing, or attempting to cause, believers to question their salvation. Are there many, many people in the world who would call themselves Christians, yet are not really saved? Yes. BUT, that’s a different discussion and not what I’m talking about here. It was our experience with a pastor at SG that after taking my husband through a litany of non-sin issues that were made out to be total and complete depravity by this particular pastor, my husband was blatantly asked by this pastor if he REALLY thought he was saved. How he KNEW he was saved. No answer, no explanation of the glorious Gospel that my husband yearns after, no explanation of the “evidences of grace” that my husband shared with him, and no bold proclamation that my husband loves Jesus and desires to walk closely with Him were enough to convince this Pastor that without a doubt my husband (who’s been one of the most God loving men I know for 18 years) was actually saved. Why? Because he was struggling with leading his family (by his own admission), wanted to switch caregroups, watched TV at night instead of _____ (fill in the blank with whatever the SG flavorful trend of the month is), didn’t have his quiet time every single day, and had a habit of staying up too late at night which in turn made him tired a lot (and less equipped to lead his family – I guess?). What an evil husband I have…he’s probably not SAVED!
I don’t diminish the need for change in any of these areas…we ALL have areas that need attention and work in our lives, but what I do take major issue with is the arbitrary gavel that’s held firmly in the hands of the “pastors” (I use that term here loosely) at SGM who have set themselves up to be the final authority on whether someone is Guilty or Not-Guilty. Where is God in this movement? SG as a whole “claims” that they hold a lofty view of God…but, I submit to you all that the truth of the matter is that from the top down the leaders behave as if they hold God right underneath their feet.
I find it interesting that so much has been said about falling into sin being cause to question the validity of salvation and perhaps necessitating re-baptism. I’ve sinned since I was saved when I was 17 years old. If I had to be re-baptised every time I sinned, I’d spend my life in water.
It is NOT up to any human being to judge the sincerity of someone else’s salvation. I had that done to me and I was judged to be a fraud…by SGM leadership in front of a congregation. SHAME ON THESE PHARISITICAL, PRIDEFUL, ARROGANT MEN.
The good news is, they can all run their mouths until the cows come home, but it doesn’t nor will it ever make them right. I have, over time and lots of ups and downs, worked out my salvation with fear and trembling and pray that I never take that for granted. I pray that I continue to be confident that, no matter how I may slip and fall, my loving Father and Creator will always be right there to get me back up on my feet and won’t be standing off in the distance waiting for me to be re-baptized by some clown who thinks he has the right to stand in judgement over my heart…which, according to Scripture he can never know anyway.
I always thought, from the Word, that baptism was a time of extreme rejoicing much like a “party” marking the beginning of something new and wonderful, yet not perfect. Instead it sounds like SGM makes it some big relief that we’ve finally measured up to what man thinks we ought to be.
Ha-Ha! My Mom doesn’t need a girdle – but I can see her burning her social security card. The government funds will probably run out way before she gets a chance to do that. Not that she doesn’t deserve soc. sec., as she paid into the system nearly all of her life!
Paul, I think it is good that you are “knocking”, and asking questions. I like to hear what you learn from SGM leadership.
A word of encouragement for the royal priesthood believers from Brother Thomas.
From A Cave Of Knowing: Field Report/
Lambs To Lions Beat The Dragon
Now hear this (it will make sense on a deep level to some/to others will just sound nonsensical):
For a while, we’ve been on the run . . . . Hiding in caves, finding refuge here and there–bravehearts, purehearts, brothers and sisters lending a helping hand, best as they can. The enemy, led by a hateful tyrant filled with rage and bent on destruction . . . . hunts those dedicated to liberty, freedom, truth, love . . . .
We’ve been wounded—made many errors. Often we have been outflanked. Sometimes, through sheer blind courage and angst we have gone to field to meet the opponent, though out-manned . . . and were swept in battle . . . again, taking to the hills to salve our hurts . . . .
The little host of which we speak is of royal lineage–wayward prodigals, mostly looking as through a glass darkly. They see forms, are moved and led by whisperings of spirit, barely heard, from time to time . . . on the move yet . . . learning as they go, survival techniques, ways to defend against the ubiquitous foe. Were it not for the guiding protection of mighty battle-hardened angels, all would have fallen; but it is part of the plan, that the skirmishing royals be kept safe through all, though many times all has seemed lost and impossible.
BUT HERE IS A WONDER! The more broken, them more bereft of self power–this running royal band becomes impregnable and increasingly toughened, flint-like in resolve to find ultimate victory! What is actually happening in the unseen records of such deeds . . . rarely matches the scene on terra, on the ground . . . . For to the mortal eye–and even to the eyes of wrath-filled wizards and adepts attacking under the dragon banner–it would appear the royal children are hopelessly beaten, lost, demoralized, crippled . . . .
Ah, but in spirit, which transcends the merely temporary shiftings of energy-driven matter . . . what is seen, what is recorded, is success after success! The foolish tyrant who ravages the mere land is blind, as are his minions, to the accruing glory of the warrior saints, as they strive on with faithful fortitude . . . constantly chalking up victories which are actually heralded in the immortal skies, as the heavenly watchers smile in divine satisfaction. The dragon’s ruse’s seem to work for a time, and the battle on the ground looks hopelessly relinquished to the evil grins of the gloating goats and wolves . . . but wiser Eyes and Ears that Hear Observe that ALL IS WELL, and the Plan goes as intended.
It was meant for the princes and princesses to experience being thrown out–that the Children be left to wander and suffer for a season in the wilderness. That they may know their utter devastation without their Lord. For all works to the greater glory of the one true King, in His wisdom and all-knowing determinations . . . . And he seeks a family, once collected into the great halls of permanence that will dine and fest and adventure and serve throughout a far-flung universe and endless creation, kings and queens, priests and prophets, alongside angelic cohorts–these having been tested through the trials and fires of mortal staging.
Meanwhile, yet, there is a time . . . where the blessed vagabonds must scurry. They will collect here and there. They will be guided by lights, by sounds, by still, inner voice . . . carried ofttimes on wing . . . . They will part clouds, bring rain, heal the sick, teach the willing . . . as they wander and drive through the darkened world, while storm clouds gather on all fronts, side to side . . . .
Wondrous deeds of holy chivalry, knightly errands . . . many brave stands will be made–ALL recorded and marveled at by the hosts on high who lovingly regard the stubborn royals, who stand fearlessly in the gap, giving up of lives, of fortunes–for truth, honor, principle . . . but most of all for sheer love and devotion to their great Master and Lord, He Who shall one day be known by all as the King of Kings . . . .
Driven through battering rains, plummeting fires, shaking grounds, plagues and pestilence . . . harried by the swarming harpies, incubi, succubi, ghouls, veritable zombies–hordes of the living dead who stalk them day and night–YET, they carry on, undaunted. Or, if hurt for a time, confused, and in despair, nevertheless, these royal nomads (for they do not make house on shifting sands) recover and continue the fight. They cannot be beaten.
All the world’s treasures, technologies, resources, cunning . . . is arrayed against them–these relative few–yet invincible they turn out to be. The harder they are pushed, the harder they become in their resolve to make it to the final gates, where absolute protection and comfort perfectly awaits . . . .
Hold firm, stalwarts, though you fall and weave and cry out in frustration and anger. The eternal hearer knows all thy deeds of the heart and not a whit is missed! Your true intent . . . .
And slowly but surely, that intent will manifest–a character made for endless ages is being wrought, hammered on the anvil of human life, as intended by the great Artist and Creator of divine souls. The destroyers, jealous, fearful, bilious . . . will finally crumble–mad, insane, decrepit, shot through will wickedness and spiritual disease . . . and at last thrown into the furnace.
Hold on! There is more to do, more to suffer, more to prove, more tests to hone the mettle dearhearts, bravehearts, purehearts . . . .
Lambs become lions . . . and beat the dragon.
The Divine Eternal Father watches and waits . . . for His children to arrive, brought in by their Warrior Shepard, turned Lion to vanquish all adversaries.
this, a humble word from one such outpost . . . a scout on the wall, surveying the fields, the battlements . . . .
brother, thomas
Thank you so much for sharing that very beautiful and powerful allegory. It made me cry; and in the press of life today, it was exactly the encouragement I needed to hear. Thank you!
That brought to mind two passages of scripture. From Psalm 37:34 “Wait for the Lord and keep His way. He will exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off you will see it.”
And from 2 Cor 1:8-10 “We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life………But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us, on Him we have set our Hope…..”
Thank you from me also, Old timer! I, too, was crying while I read certain parts of your post (while sitting in the Orthodontist’s parking lot while waiting for one of my kids).
A true word in season… thank you.
In Gilbert changes are afoot and it’s a good thing.
Rich’s message today was powerful. Col 1:1-7 laying the groundwork for doing away with anything that is not the gospel. Next week he is preaching on godliness. What does it mean to live a life that is focused on the gospel of Jesus alone.
All the negative ‘culture’ that has been a part of SGM will not be changed in a day but change is coming, we will stay in the meantime.
Will – So, is Gilbert pulling away from SGM? I’m not sure how the culture will change without severing themselves from the cult. I hope for your sake that you are correct (I sincerely do), but to be honest – I’ve heard next weeks message before.
From what I experienced, and from reading others’ stories, the gospel at SGM is still filled with leaven. It isn’t just about Jesus and salvation. It includes a lifestyle filled with burdens the people ought not to carry. Will that change, I wonder?
Will– Glad to hear you are encouraged by Richs teaching and that you have hope that “changes are afoot and its a good thing.”
And wondering:
Did you, as a church, receive a written form of exactly WHAT the hired law firms’ conclusions were for “everything to be done in accordance with the law”? (Like, what “everything” are they talking about?)
And, is everyone now crystal clear in regards to Steves role in the (Gilbert)church?
As for the SGM cultural change—-quite difficult to be ‘in” it—but not “of” it….without being adversely spiritually effected. **** May God equip and strengthen you and sharpen your discernment in your surroundings.
Waters,
What is your motive in asking these questions? No, really I’m wondering:
Why the pejorative use of capitalization and leading straw man questions?
Why would you be concerned about the clarity of roles in a church which you do not attend?
Is your goal to build up Will out of charity and love, or to tear down a church in which you have no part?
Where do you go to church now?
Did you ever attend the SGM Gilbert church?
Just wondering.
Scroll up to Waters’ postings on Sept 24th and 27th. Perhaps you can come to understand and then discern the answers for your questions. No need to wonder.
Waters,
I have read all of the posts on this thread and just re-read the ones you mentioned. Were any of your 19 years spent in AZ? If you’d like to e-mail me directly, that would be fine.
While you’re asking all of these questions Chuck, remember to first ask yourself the same thing: “What is your motive in asking these questions?” No, really I’m wondering…is your goal,to build up your brethren out of charity and love, or to tear down a brother/sister in Christ? “Just wondering.” If you’re asking, be sure you firstuse the measure on yourself. To this bystander, it sounds like you’re on a witchhunt.
A just balance and scales are the Lord’s; all the weights in the bag are his work. Prov 16:11
I’m grateful that you offered to take the conversation offline. I’m personally weary of public debate.
I think that Waters’ questions were reasonable, and also informed, proving that there is some connection there.
I can’t speak for anyone here but myself, but as the guy who got this ball rolling, I can tell you that I have no desire to tear down a church or a denomination.
Assuming you are a member of a sgm church, you have either already benefited from the existence of this blog and survivors, or will benefit in the future.
Jim and Hope, Thankyou for your words on my behalf.
Chuck,
We willnot reveal our identity or where we go to church or which sgm church we were a part of. No, we choose not to contact you via your personal email. These debates are like a revolving door that never ends. Probably a more helpful investigation for your questions would be to go to the couples who left who were previously long time members.
In all sincerity, we do pray for the Gilbert church and love and respect the Senior Pastor.
For all the sgm churches, our prayer is that there will be a return to their first love—Jesus Christ……….learning of Him, knowing Him,hearing Him, following Him—above all others-because HE is the Resurrection and the Life.
Shalom to you, Chuck…we ‘ll not be responding to any of your questions (We see you do have communications ongoing on the Survivors website —perhaps that will be helpful to you also—I hope so).
I went to Sovreign grace Gilbert for a number of years. That church was great when I went there first but gradually went downhill. I do not trust or respect CJ, I think that his “leadership” is deeply flawed, and this filters downward. That said, I think Rich is a good guy….screw CJ though!
I’ve now heard 2 snipets. But, since I”m not part of that church anymore, I don’t feel I can share anything I heard.
I must say…this has brought me to my knees. Literally. Crying out to God to spare that church. They have no idea what they’re under. Well, at least the ones who happily remain thinking that crap is OK.
So where is Glynn Mckenzie pastor? He’s listed as the pastor for the SGM church in Denver (Grace Community), and also a pastor at the church in Gilbert, AZ. Is he double dipping? Isn’t he the pastor that was supposed to plant the church in Colorado Springs and had to bail out?
Collateral,
Glynn is one of those guys who I never hear anything good about, but hear a ton of negative stuff.
The last I heard, Glynn was taking Bendi’s (another name on the wall of shame) place in N. Denver.
I don’t understand how Shank dodges the bullet out west, considering the amount of problems right under his nose.
CD, yes they bailed the CS church. Glynn is spreading his message of legalism…oh, i mean…serving the fine people at the North Denver SGM church. He went there in the spring.
The Family Meeting… Where do I even begin?
To preface it for those outside of Gilbert, there has been quite a bit of upheaval and departures over the last year or so. Much of this has already been discussed here.
Dave Harvey and CJ came to evaluate the church back in May/June. From what we’ve been told, they interviewed many caregroup leaders, devoted members of the church, the “team” and apparently even a few that have left. This family meeting was to discuss their “findings” with the church.
Rich shared their findings which included –
Input for Rich: they identified the sin of SELF-SUFFICIENCY. (He was not seeking adaquate input from the ‘team’.) He also was in sin for having a DESIRE FOR APPROVAL. (trying to have it both ways – pleasing the flock and sgm, bowed to the opinions of men, listening and trying to please the people instead of just making decisions)
Input for Pastoral Team: team has not spoken in unity (ex. policy on Bible studies.) Need greater fellowship and intimacy as a team so that they can model intimacy to the church better…
Receiving Input from the Church – they have neglected to follow-up in a timely manner with concerns brought to their attention.
Administrating Ministries in the Church – need to grow in communication, make sure the ‘team’ is explaining how to live out the gospel in real life so the congregation better understands…
Celebrating other Gospel-centered ministries – they shouldn’t be communicating elitism. also should be highlighting other local ministries that people can be involved with.
Input for clear communication of Steve Shank’s role in the church. There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.
We were also informed that a law firm was employed to go over everything and make sure that everything was being done in accordance to the law. A lay financial team has also been set up.
And those are the facts. I’ll opine in a later post…
I am still in shock over the meeting on Sunday night. I can’t believe that Rich took full blame for EVERYTHING… What they did to him just grieves my heart. I have never seen a man so broken in my entire life. This is not the same man who came in to take over the senior pastor position 8 some years ago. Until now, I’ve only talked to people who have experienced spiritual abuse, but I felt that I just sat and witnessed it this last week.
One of the pastors stood up and confirmed to the rest of the church that they were in full agreement with Harvey’s assessment of Rich’s sin. It was mentioned that Rich was in heightened accountability and then we were all invited to bring correction if we saw any behavior that looked to be rooted in these two sins of his…
I see a lot of blame-shifting going on. No mention was made of any faults other than “lack of unity” for any of the other pastors including Steve, Glynn or Trey. Maybe they think that no one remembers the increase in heavy-handed sin emphasis, switch in the purpose of caregroups to rooting out sin, segregation of caregroups by age and marital status or narrowed focus of the singles group to ‘getting married’ that just so happened to take place after the arrival of Steve and Glynn. But then, I’m not quite sure if they see any of those as actual problems.
This searching for sin and rooting it out in others has been a major issue. Many of the people that have left this year, are doing so for reasons related to this one and yet, as we all witnessed, this introspection and/or hyper-inspection is still alive and well.
My heart breaks for Rich. I have been praying for him for several months, but that has been kicked up several notches this week. It has been eye opening to see the effects that this culture has had on pastors. Reading about the pastor, Friendly Fire, and then seeing what they have done to Rich and others I know, has brought me to my knees in intercession. There is so much deception and bondage. I am praying that eyes are opened and that many will experience God’s healing and true grace.
“… confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does” – let’s see now. Go to San Diego and de-gift. Go back to San Diego and re-gift. Pour lighter fluid on fires in Chesapeake, Denver, San Fran Bay Area. Start and stop training program for Latin America. Model leadership and communication so poorly in home church that Dave & CJ have to come out. Come on, Steve is supposed to be an “apostle” yet he has this mess right under his nose? Hopefully the flock in Gilbert were spared from hearing CJ speak on “The Happiest Place On Earth” during the A-Team eval.
From the SG website under the heading “A Continuum of Care” we read of apostles that “They help build existing local churches primarily by equipping and caring for pastors” and “Like the father of an adult son, the apostle remains closely related, occasionally present, but always available to assist”. Questions for Dave, CJ, and Steve – how was Steve equipping and caring for the Gilbert pastors? How was he “closely related”? Does he need cue cards to know when to assist?
“Happiest Place on Earth” was taught at the Gilbert church in November of 2007. I found that just by googling it and it’s right there on SGM’s website next to CJ’s bio.
Newlywndd: this is EXACTLY what I want to know. I can see all the other churches you mention not directly pointing to Shank, but how on earth is the church he’s just celebrated 6 years at NOT his responsibility? I used to go to that church. When we arrived (just a few months after Shanks), Rich was the savior of the Gilbert church. I remember, on one of the first Sundays we heard that Rich had been there 1 1/2 years and the church doubled in size since he got there. (I don’t remember him boasting about this…just the facts). That church experienced some years of growth, but then it tapered off and in the last year or so, many people have left. WHY WHY WHY, if Shank has held his office in that building for so long, is there no responsibility placed on him?
Watching: I have been on my knees since I first heard the account you give. I am so sorry. I pray for many eyes to be opened. I pray for Rich and his wife. I pray for the “leaders” of SGM that they would see Shank for what he is. I pray the people will hear that “they are not appreciating him enough” will realize this is putrid. The Bible does NOT teach us to elevate man.
I’m glad you wrote out your account.
Sidney
Watching Closely…..
Did church members actually bring correction to Rich when they were invited/encouraged to do so?
How tragic this is.
Nice – more made up “sins” from SGM. Self-sufficiency is NOT a sin, neither is DESIRE FOR APPROVAL – their is NOTHING SINFUL about wanting approval. It depends on how you act on those feelings. The is NOTHING SINFUL about SELF – SUFFICIENCY! So, what team? Did he not get proper “permission” from Shank on something?
More garbage from SGM and it;s narrow-minded, “you have a problem with God if you don’t like what I saw” leaders…..
Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.”
If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?
Gosh, this is just sad, sad, sad. It is so hard to read about the Gilbert meeting, to see one man blamed where many should have been instead. This canary is fighting tears. God help the saints in SGM. God help them!
Here is a quote from Frank Viola’s book, “Who Is Your Covering” that I think speaks the truth about submission and authority in the church:
“While there is no Biblical support for the modern ‘ covering’ teaching, the Scriptures do have something to say about authority and submission. It should be noted, however, that the Bible spills far more ink in telling us how to love and serve one another than it does on how to exercise and submit to authority.”
“In fact, experience has it that when the fundamental aspects of love and servanthood are mastered in an assembly, the issues of leadership and authority amazingly take care of themselves. ( In this connection, those who put undue emphasis on authority and submission are typically more interested in making themselves indispensable to the spiritual growth of others than they are in serving them).” Pg. 49
This is pertinant because SGM is so obsessive about obeying and submitting, following leaders, yet seems to miss the importance of “submitting to one another in love”. Maybe this post would be better over at Survivor’s, where Kris has printed a CJ sermon on submission to authority. Yet, I believe that all the problems we speak of here about experiences in SGM are rooted in the lack of the love of Christ working within the saints, especially some of the leadership. If only there was more focus on Jesus, and on loving one another, instead of obeying and submitting, there wouldn’t be so many wounded sheep. Even the obsessive focus on sin diverts attention from the One we should be imitating.
If we love the Lord with all our hearts, souls, and minds, and love our neighbor as ourselves, wouldn’t that change the way church is presently being practiced? It is so simple.
I totally agree with Canary: “Gosh, this is just sad, sad, sad. It is so hard to read about the Gilbert meeting, to see one man blamed where many should have been instead. This canary is fighting tears. God help the saints in SGM. God help them!”
Sidney said-
“Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.”
If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?”
Well said.
–“Watching Closely said: “There is confusion and lack of appreciation for everything Steve does. The ‘team’ needs to improve on explaining how important Steve is.”
If Shank doesn’t desire approval, he would have stood up at that moment and rebuked every person saying that. In fact, he would have already talked with Harvey and rebuked him for including this in his report of Rich’s misbehavior.
When will Shank be called on the carpet for the path of destruction that lays in his wake?”–
AMEN and WELL SAID and DITTO and GO FOR IT!!!
Here we see SGM upper management — uncensored and exposed — for what and who they are, what they do, and how they think. You shall know them by their fruit.
Here we see more of the fruit of Shank’s “ministry”. You shall know them by their fruit.
Talk about the way to totally de-motivate all the remaining pastors!
Talk about hypocrisy — creating such a dysfunctional culture that strongly pushes and morphs even sincere Christians to live like they rebuked Rich for, yet then calling him on the carpet as the scapegoat.
Scapegoating is an integral part of dysfunctional families, so when SGM calls themselves as a “family” of — gag, choke — churches, they should add the adjective “dysfunctional” before the term “family”. I wish they’d leave off the term “churches” altogether.
_
It is my opinion, which means I could be wrong, that Steve himself is the one who had that part about “appreciation” and “how important Steve is” put in there.
Unfortunately, Steve has forgotten the part about reaping what you have sown.
Watching Closely— Thankyou for posting the facts of the “Family Metting” in Gilbert. When I first saw Jims thread on Gilbert—my heart cried out—’how is Rich, your Senior Pastor, Gilbert???’— And now we have the account….
Watching Closely,I am encouraged to hear you say you were led to pray for Rich the past few months—a friend and I were also. Rich is a “David”…his character is tenderhearted and genuine—perhaps this is why he has been charged with “trying to please the flock AND SGM..listening and trying to please the people instead of just making decisions.” We say— Thank you Lord, for Rich—who desires to hear his people instead of discarding them…how difficult for this young man to have walked these years under the religous chokehold of the SGM leadership…and how convenient for Glynn to be in Denver whilst Rich takes the punches for the fruit of Glynns heavyhanded religiosity.
As for the charge of “Self-Sufficiency”…This man, Rich R, is a genuinely humble man and not a CJ mini-me. Probably every person on the face of the earth, saved and unsaved struggle with self-sufficiency on occasion—but this is NOT a stronghold in Richs life. Remember, he has been extremely ill the past 10 years,hospitalized occasionally, constantly in physical pain,amplified by chronic fatigue. He has learned to depend on his Savior for the strength of every day…and he doesn’t complain, does he??? He has a quiet joy, doesn’t he, Gilbert church??
How deeply grievous to hear that “one pastor stood up and confirmed to the rest of the church that they were in full agreement of Richs sin” —How utterly alarming that the ‘team’ of pastors laid blame at Richs feet—— there is no, none, zilch, discernment in those who worship the SGM idol of the gospel of sin management.——People of Gilbert church, I pray you will rise up—that you will awaken—that you will cry out to God for His answers and Light and take courage to fight for Truth. We are brothers and sisters in Christ—-how shall we walk with our brother who has been stoned by the the pharisees???
To Steve Shank, CJ Mahaney, and Dave Harvey—you have openly, in the public light of day, endighted yourselves by bringing forth accusations and charges that are like vapor,against Rich Richardson. For now it is blazingly obvious—YOU HAVE NO DISCERNMENT—YOU HAVE NOT DISCERNED THE HEART OF A MAN WHO TRULY CARES FOR HIS SHEEP/PEOPLE. -
Appallingly unbelievable that Rich is charged with “not having input for clear communication of Steve Shanks role in the church”………Say what?????— Wouldn’t Steve, who is in his 50′s, have some responsibility in leading and modeling his role (whatever it is) for the church he has been attending the past 5 years so that people aren’t “confused” about him?????—Who is questioning and EVALUATING Steve Shank on his shabby,drop the ball, lack of discernment and engagement with the peoples crying out for help in the documented cases of Chesapeake, Denver , Gilbert, andSan Diego???????
What does this mean “a law firm was employed to go over everything and make sure that everything was being done in accordance with the law.”— Gilbert church—you have the right,as people who tithe and are members of this church to SEE full documentation of all the fine writings of this law firms paperwork for YOUR church.
Again, SGM, CJ Mahaney, Dave Harvey, Steve Shank—you have been found out–you have caused weights to be added to the scales —so that your presentation of the ‘evaluation’ of Rich will appear a certain way to the people of the Gilbert church…
“A false balance is an abomination to the Lord,
but a just weight is His delight.” Prov 11:1
Holy Spirit, BREATHE on and through your people in the Gilbert church—sift out deceit, and the dry bones of religousness. Cause the fire of Your Living Word to separate good from evil……raise up men in the congregation whom You see as “Gideons”…cause your people to hunger and thirst for righteousness and to know, once agin the unfailing love of the Father God…and to be carried in that stream of the great love of God that they may be warriors,taking courage and Your strength and discernment to rise up. Thankyou, Lord, that you know the hearts of those who love and serve you without guile—Your servants, Rich and Tiffany—pour out Your wondrous Presence and healing balm upon them tonight and the following days……deliver them, O God, and continue to bring forth Your perfect will,plan and purpose in their lives—which You have established from the very foundation of the earth. Protect and provide for them, Father,…move on their behalf and show Yourself strong—that You may be glorified through them.. In the Name of Jesus….Jesus….Jesus…..Amen
Watching Closely – Please remind me of who the “team” currently is. Is it comprised only of Rich, Steve, Jon, and Trey?
- Glynn has moved on to CO
- Chris has moved on to Peoria
- Trey has been hospitalized much as of late and I would be surprised to hear if he is actively working on staff
- Brian has left the church
- Jeff was fired (shhhh!) – I mean, stepped down
- Wayne hasn’t been considered part of the “team” for years.
Am I missing anyone? Who is this “team” that Rich has not submitted to?
I’m getting really irritated by all of this ongoing deception. I’m seriously considering openly sharing our story. I’ve finally reached the point (BY GOD’s GRACE) that I really don’t fear the fallout anymore. We’ve lost most all of our friends already and those who we haven’t are either true friends or they need to hear the truth openly anyway. I don’t know if it will help a single soul at Gilbert, but I do know that I have a freedom in Christ that I have not had in years and if even one of the members who remain at Gilbert would be helped by the truth then it would be worth it to share it openly. I’m praying about it. The bondage to the legalism and man-made pseudo-religion is appalling and I’m sick and tired of the “team” not being held accountable for the damage and destruction they’ve caused so many families.
Can I change my name to “Ticked Off”?
Canary, Thankyou for your excellent post last night at 9ish.
And this part of a quote from F Vilas’ book: “…it should be noted, however, that the Bible spills far more ink in telling us how to love and serve one another than it does on how to exercise and submit to authority.”— That would be— the BIBLE.. shows us how to love and serve one another—not SGM man-made ‘doctrines’. And Beloved of God—thankyou for reminding us all of Jesus’ exhortation to examine the fruit………we pray for eyes to see and not be deluded by deceptive waxed artificial robotic man-madefruit……
Be Bold and Waters,
I am so with you regarding Rich and how he is being/has been treated. I know that my chronic illness went COMPLETELY away as I left SGM. Praise God! I am healed because I am healed of the sickness of SGM. Praise God! I can only pray the same for Rich. I’ve called him a “puppet’ because he seems to just go along with what those “under” him in leadership tell him what to do. Who knows if he goes along with what Shank says cuz who knows really what Shank does.
Speaking of Shank…and his fallout. Oh man…we arrived in Gilbert just 8 months after the Shanks did. I don’t think I have ever heard him give an original message. In fact, I had family in town when he taught one Sunday and a young family member…a teenager…said “hey! I’ve heard this message! CJ taught it!” UGH!
I’ve been lifting up Gilbert this week. I pray that the Lord will open many eyes. I pray that the Lord will open Rich’s eyes. I pray that the Lord will take him out. I have been praying for the Jacob family since Keith was fired. They are now under Glynn and I pray that they are able to discern his evil message. I pray that. Because there are MANY very wonderful churches out there! MANY!
Be Bold, About sharing your whole story…I have considered the same thing. One day perhaps I will. I don’t have the fear anymore.
Where is Matthew Geesling? I would love to hear what he has to say about this. After all, Rich is his nephew. Where does his allegiance lie? Family or denomination??? Matthew, please come visit us again.
Sid
Beloved of God said: “Talk about the way to totally de-motivate all the remaining pastors!”
It is also a way to get/keep the remaining pastors quaking in their boots! After seeing what happened to Rich, they will be even more afraid to buck the SGM leaders and more motivated to follow the SGM leaders expectations and “rules”. I’m sure they don’t want what happened to Rich to happen to them! Ahhhh… the SGM “system” at work…
Waters,
INC said to me once that some men are in the “business” of pastoring, and that some are called from the womb to care for God’s people. It sounds like, from your description of Rich, that he is of the latter. We must hope that this is the Lord’s way of setting him free from the leaven that has grown so much in SGM. Maybe this will be a good thing for Rich and his family, in the end. I think it is wonderful and courageous that you and others have come on here in defense of Rich.
Also, I remember being fearful of sharing my story. Yet, when I did, I felt freed from the past. It was empowering. I hope you and Sidney can post your stories. It might help so many, and also validate once again what many of us have all ready expressed.
To everyone: I read yesterday that there is a Muslim gathering today near the Capitol, where Muslims wish to show America “how they pray”. Though I support freedom of religion in our country (i.e. not forced religion), I was saddened to think of how all the bondage and leaven in our Christian churches today have so watered down the gospel, that the Muslim religion can gain such a foothold in America.
What we do here is important. We are identifying, not only in SGM but other churches and in our own lives, the strongholds that keep believers from walking like Jesus. The leaven needs to be purged from our lives, by the Holy Spirit. From our churches. From our leaders. Only then will we have the true gospel, in all its power, to offer to those who do not know the Way.
I was at the meeting and I would concur with most of what has been said about it. I would say one thing in John’s defense, he was the pastor that stood and confirmed Rich’s “sin”, he did say (and I can’t tell you exactly word for word) that this wasn’t the definition of Rich’s ministry. While yes they have seen this supposed sin it did not define Rich.
I and my husband left the meeting scratching our heads, about the aforementioned things but also a few others like do we really need to be “equipped” by the pastors to have a Bible study? For us the SGM bubble has been popped, PTL, (we’ve been part for some 20+ years) but we do feel like we should stay, for now. We will no longer question what we know God is saying to us and we will feel the freedom to call others out on their legalism or misuse of God’s word.
We did agree with a lot of what was said like, know what God has called you to and do it. Being clear about it will help others determine if this is the church for them. Don’t waver, if God says to you this is what I want this church to do then do it, without worrying about offending people. My one fear in all of this is that the pastors, mainly Rich, would become to concerned with the preferences of the people. I for one think that God calls churches and people to different things. We are all part of the same body but we have different things to contribute. I hope that this makes sense. ?
I cannot say much, but this I will say:
I think it is very sad that Rich is being condemned for eating, breathing and living SGM. He is a product of his environment and training. And although I love he and his wife dearly (rich, tiff, if you are reading this, I love you guys so much) on one hand I am praying that this opens their eyes. I am just so disheartened for them. Rich is one of the most tender-hearted people I know. He has worked very hard at leading the church and “following” SGM. I think it is so, very sad and very wrong that someohow he gets “thrown under the bus” and Glenn and Steve hold no responsiblity? Where is the “team” and support all of us assume is there on the pastoral staff for heaven’s sake? I just think it is IMPOSSIBLE to hold one man respsonsible unless he has been completely deceitful in his lack of sharing with the other pastors, but just like Denver and Chesapeake….where is the discernment? I have said too much and may have shot myself in the foot….but geesh, I just bounce in and out of being very angry and hurt for a friend. I pray Rich and Tiff come out in deliverance and courage to see things for what they are…..TRUTH.
Mom,
You sound like I did in the weeks following the Lord opening my eyes about SGM. It happened a little over a year ago and it was a very interesting time in my world. I am praying for you.
As for Rich, in our couple years at the Gilbert church, the only beef I had with him was that he made fun of his wife from the pulpit and I didn’t like that. Also, he did seem like a “yes man” and not so much of a “senior pastor.”
Shankings …or “Harveyings” as this one is better described…are never easy.
Sidney
I think someone above wrote that they suspected the legalistic and/or authoritarian model of SGM stifles love.
YES!!!! Indeed, YES!!!
Do a search-engine search with the phrase “legalism kills love”
_
Which is the following paragraph describes the SGM model of leadership in the upper management (and how the pastors are treated and trained by upper-management to be)?
Luke 22:24-27
24Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
_
The False Doctrine of Absolute Submission
http://www.charismatic-captivation.com/?p=16
_
Attack of the Super Apostles
http://www.cultwatch.com/superapostles.html
Regarding the above article on Super Apostles –
Truth Watch believes this article is essential reading for all discerning Christians….
http://www.truthwatch.info/mod.....38;sid=114
*
The Super Apostles Series
http://www.cultwatch.com/saseries.html
_
“Authority”–The Most Widely Abused Form Of Fear
http://www.batteredsheep.com/authority_fear.html
Thank you all for the comments and prayers offered up for this church. Many eyes have been opened and seeing the freedom and sweet fellowship that God is extending to his precious children as they yearn for, seek and find the Light is incredible!
Seeking, to answer your question, when Rich invited feedback and correction, he didn’t mean right then and there. Although there was a Q&A afterwards and there were actually some challenging questions that were put to them instead of the usual “light” one’s.
And “Mom” was right, as far as I can remember, when she said that Jon mentioned something about how this did not characterize him as a person. The sad thing is that although they say that, it usually does. I know that has been the case in my own life to some degree. Once you are pegged as one thing in the eyes of those over you, it is hard to move past it… But maybe this is one of the things they are trying to move past.
While some of the changes discussed at the mtg are commendable (seeking to promote other organizations, listen to the congregation and respond better, etc) we are still troubled, as “mom” is, by their response on Bible studies. It smacks of control, albeit more subtle. They reiterated that Bible Study has no place in small groups because it would interfere with “fellowship”. (huh?????)
I can think of at least 8 individuals who were prohibited (some subtly and others outright shut down) in the last few years, from meeting with others in their home to study the Bible or even do a discussion group on a book. These are godly individuals who are/were highly esteemed in the church. One person was told by a pastor that he could lead a Bible study only if it was for people outside the church because they, “the pastors” were responsible for under their care and needed to oversee what was being taught. When asked about people being allowed to go to Bible studies outside of the church, this pastor responded by saying that he wasn’t thrilled that people would be leaving their “covering”, but that they wouldn’t prohibit it.
And that’s the real crux of the problem, now isn’t it? Though perhaps some of the most outward and obvious forms of control are being addressed and reined in, if the underlining error is still in place, then the foundation is still badly flawed and the abuse, even if it goes underground for awhile, will resurface.
Mature believers can’t have Bible studies in their own homes? Or they should only have them for the lesser, non-SGM Christians? Can’t risk your unregulated Bible studies tainting the chosen? Not thrilled about believers going to a non-SGM Bible study? Afraid of leaving their covering? These are FRIGHTENING stances. There would be no church in China if these controlling “doctrines” were right.
The answer for SGM isn’t a bandaid. Their foundation is cracked and poison has seeped in. They are going to have to lay still and let the Lord cut them to the core to get the poison out. Will they? Do they have the humility? Will they risk the horrifying possibility of having to admit they were wrong all these years, especially in light of their staunch adamancy they were right? Can they ever see and admit that their wrongness has caused a world of grief and pain to families all over the United States and even abroad? Big stakes for the big dogs of SGM.
Between these conversations here and the discussion on survivors regarding C.J.’s August 2009 message on the Happiest Place on Earth, I am not optimistic at the moment. Can they STILL be talking about submission and pastoral authority in such an unbalanced way? How is this possible? It makes me think they see some of their authority doctrines being applied wrongly by individual pastors, while still thinking the doctrine itself is sound. That’s not going to get the job of rooting out the errors done.
Ah well. My intensity is showing again…
Gracie said-
“It makes me think they see some of their authority doctrines being applied wrongly by individual pastors, while still thinking the doctrine itself is sound. That’s not going to get the job of rooting out the errors done.”
Well said. The heart of the matter is still the heart of the matter. The root will grow into trees that produce the same fruit.
Or, in other words, the leaven will continue to grow, unless purged. I forget the bible verse that speaks of this. I’ll have to go look it up again.
“A little leaven (a slight inclination to error, or a few false teachers) leavens the whole lump [it perverts the whole conception of faith or misleads the whole church].” Gal. 5:9, Amplified
Gracie, it’s okay that you speak with intensity. This is a subject that we should feel “intense” about!
How about believers baptizing other believers in home pools? Our church used to do this sort of thing but in recent years we’ve been asked to only do it at the church baptism which happens haphazardly. The reason given was that baptism is a church sacrament and should only be done when the whole church gets together so everyone can be blessed.
mack-read the end of Acts 8
Mom,
Thankyou for writing and filling in more information about the meeting and your insights. We are so thankful to hear of one more family who is out of the “sgm bubble”. I pray God will strengthen you by the power of His might to walk in courage, speaking the Truth of His Word—which IS sharper than a “2-edged sword”!…Yes, as you reported was stated at the meeting, we can surely all agree that we should “know what God has called us to and do it and define these things in our lives…” etc etc..I guess they were reminding the people of a basic foundational Christian truth.
However, evidently the focus of the meeting was to bring correction to Rich.. to the crescendo application of announcing his “heightened accountability (status) and inviting the congregants to point out his sin.” Thereby showing they had come to the conclusion that all/most of Gilberts upheavals in the past months have been due to Richs’ identified 2 sins.–This would be error and scapegoating and UNJUST weights and balances.
Although all the pastors, including Rich, were evidently in agreement with these charges,it is a travesty of a picture. And does Jon not know that most people ALREADY know that these sins absolutely donot “define” Rich…and as Watching Closely pointed out, when sgm pegs someone with a title, that usually stays. This is where the fight for truth and discernment will be necessary for the congregants of Gilbert.
Could it be that Richs’ God-given gifting of a tender heart and a desire to value and truly hear people has collided with the authoritative legalism and doctrinal heavy-handedness that upper management of sgm requires???? If so, one could only imagine the turmoil that would bring in a man who genuinely is a servant.
Because we were a part of sgm for 19 years, we chewed on the man-made doctrines and requirements,which, unbeknownst to us, dampened the light of Christ in us. I cannot imagine what that would be like for one surrounded by and in pastoral leadership. God have mercy.
Bottom line for us is this– This Family Meeting MANIFESTED the legalistic and UNDISCERNING actions of the “Evaluation Team”– Mahaney,Shank,Harvey– they have created this Pharisee culture and so of course they can only be expected to see through their legalistic eyes. –As Jim said , “The heart of the matter is still the heart of the matter. The root will grow into trees that produce the same fruit.” They are “keeping the main thing the main thing” (CJ’s much hailed expression) —but the main thing is all about their control and legalism, and its scarey. —– We, as the Body of Christ must remember that our journey on earth IS a continuous battle…to fight the good fight of the faith and that we donot wrestle against flesh,but principalities and powers of darkness; and we are to engage in the pulling down of strongholds—but how can any of this be done if at FIRST we donot SEE the truth of the battleground???????—
I was reading in Revealtions of the message to the “7 Churches”. Remember at the end of each proclomation there is this: “He who has an ear to hear what the Spirit says to the churches..” In the Message Bible the contemporary language version reads–” Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen to the Wind Words, the Spirit blowing through the churches.”— We as Christians carry a responsibility—we must wake up from where we may lapse into sleep—and stay awake—and fight…as Nehemiah exhorted “for our sons and daughters”. Praying for Gods people in the church in Gilbert, to “Ask….Seek….Knock”— for Truth, for answers, for discernment, for courage to see what needs to be seen.— And meanwhile, allow Holy Spirit to reveal any sin issues to a man, And consider…and ask the Lord how encouragement and life-giving words would be extended to a pastor who has endeavored to give of his life to Gods people—- because he loves Jesus.
Mack,
You cannot baptize each other. A pastor has to baptize. Do you know why? Because they have to make sure you are actually saved. You cannot be baptized unless you have been tested and proven your salvation because you were tempted by sin…some ‘big’ sin and didn’t give in.
Covenant Life’s website is very clear about this. They even have scripture to back it up. www.covlife.org and go on the “about us” section…there, right below the location, hours, pastor bios, there is a tab for baptism.
Yes, it’s so important for them to CONTROL it so tightly that it actually has its own tab.
There is even a “faq” pdf for parents who are confused.
I know many people who were re-baptized because they got baptized, then sinned “for a season.” This “sinned for a season” is proof positive that they were never actually saved.
Try living that lie for most of your life. It’s the pit of legalism in the heart of a believer who was made to feel like they’re not.
This is the type of oral tradition that Jesus spoke against. Hear the simplicity of God’s Word:
Acts 8
26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south [4] to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:
“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” [5] 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
8:36 Some manuscripts add all or most of verse 37: And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he replied, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
Excellent verses, Jim! So clear. It is awful what men have done to ruin simple faith, today. Pharisees are still alive and well (I should know. I use to be one). What about when Jesus said that we should not turn away the little children from Him? My kids, when they were young, believed in Jesus and were baptized. They could not explain all the theology behind Christianity, only that they believed that Jesus was the Son of God. As adults, they continue to believe so. According to what is being posted here, young children would be turned away from baptism by SGM today. Is this true?
Bible: Get saved. Get baptized.
SGM: Get saved. Prove it by not sinning. Apply to your pastor. Have an interview with your pastor. Prove your salvation. Pastor approves you to get baptized. Next time the church decides to hold baptism ceremonies, get baptized.
Is there some disconnect here?
You are all right on your views of the way SGM does baptisms. I could play the devil’s advocate and say that the answer to the Acts 8 story of Phillip and the eunuch is that Phillip was considered a “leader” and so had the authority to baptize whenever he wanted. Any thoughts on that?
mack-fine with me (for arguments sake), as long as leaders are following his example.
Canary,
Go here: http://www.covlife.org/about/baptism
This is what SGM believes about baptism…
How did I believe for all those years that the message was “grace?”
I actually had NO idea what grace was.
Till I stopped WORKING so hard to receive it.
Whew. Being in SGM is so much stinkin’ work.
How sad. Jesus never intended it to be such.
Poor Rich…imagine the work he’s going to have to do now. No wonder he’s had such health issues. We need to be praying for his health as he’s WORKING.
Sidney – what is so horrific about Baptism? I read the page you directed us to, and see nothing un-Biblical. http://www.covlife.org/about/baptism
You prefer infant baptism? You prefer non Believers being baptized so that they can feel accepted? What exactly about Baptism annoys you?
Read the first line – It is SYMBOLIC.
What Baptism Symbolizes
Baptism uniquely portrays the believer’s union with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-5). Therefore, at Covenant Life we practice baptism by immersion, which vividly pictures these realities.
Romans 6:4: “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.”
Who Should Be Baptized
Baptism points to the beginning of the Christian life (Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:38) and displays one’s commitment to turn from sin and trust in Christ for salvation. For this reason, we do not baptize infants. If you were baptized as an infant, we would ask that—in obedience to Scripture and as part of becoming a member of Covenant Life Church—you be baptized as a believer. Acts 8:12: “…when they believed…they were baptized, both men and women.”
A Candidate for Baptism Should Be Able To:
When my children were young and asked to be baptized, I wanted to make sure they knew what it was all about since so many kids want to do what all their friends are doing and it means nothing. I still remember summer camp as a kid, not wanting to feel left out, I tossed my “piece of wood” in the fire signifying that I wanted to give my life to Christ. What I didn’t want to be was the only kid holding his “piece of wood”.
So when my son asked me at 6, and we talked and I was sure it was something he understood, he was baptized in a SGM church, and I (not the pastor) baptized him.
Paul,
Sidney has in no way expressed anything that would imply that he/she finds baptism horrific.
As an aside, please compare CLC’s “a candidate should…” with the Scripture cited by THEM.
Acts 8:12: “…when they believed…they were baptized, both men and women.”
Paul,
You don’t go to CLC if you are currently seeing children being baptized. And you don’t go to most of the rest of SGM churches, because in the last few years, they have ALL been adopting CLC’s new Baptism “mandate.”
CLC’s documents are clear. THEY DO NOT BAPTIZE CHILDREN younger than their prescribed “age of understanding.” They basically make that age somewhere in the young to mid teens…based on their assertion of the teen’s maturity level.
The problem: It’s no longer a relationship with my Savior. It’s now a relationship PLUS a whole bunch of crap. Where is the sweetness of my simple faith in Jesus? No more. It has to be brain surgery or it is suspect.
Sidney
Paul,
Thanks for the sermon.
Jim, thanks for clarifying.
Paul, for the record, I do NOT believe in infant baptism. I do NOT believe in young children being baptized when they make a profession of faith. What I DO believe is that you can be baptized before you have PROVEN your salvation….based on a set of rules set forth by your pastors…who are, by the way, NOT objective.
I watched several people at CLC get re-baptized because they had sinned.
And where CLC muddies the water is the way that they grade sin. I have been in bondage and sin to food for most of my life. (I am not overweight now, by the grace and freedom of the Lord, and have never been more than 30 pounds overweight, so you wouldn’t look at me and say I had a “sinful eating” problem.) I have been a christian for a long while and I was baptized 12 years ago. But, I only recently got convicted of the fact that I was totally given over to my eating sin. Most areas of my life were affected because of the darkness of my eating bondage. Do I need to be re-baptized. Based on conversations I’ve had with friends at CLC, I probably do. I probably was not saved in those years.
If you don’t agree with this assessment, ask the people who did drugs, had affairs or sexual sin, etc…ask them. Their sin is NO DIFFERENT THAN MINE!!!!!
Do I need to be re-baptized? Because one could say that I did not overcome. I did not bear fruit. I was totally captivated by food and I chose food over the Lord for many years.
That’s just like a teenage boy who I know who is in CLC. I remember the joyous day when he was 5 or 6 and he called me to tell me he got saved. And I remember many years of “fruit” in his capacity in his life. Now, as a teen, he has gotten himself in trouble because he sinned. He isn’t allowed to get baptized. He isn’t allowed to take communion. He’s now been deemed an unbeliever…why? Because he sinned in a way that CLC does not believe a saved person can possibly sin. He has conviction of sin. He has fruit in his life. He also sins.
And now his salvation is disqualified.
THIS is what I have a problem with, Paul. A MAJOR problem. This is pure, unadulterated legalism. This sets people up to have a convoluted perspective of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This sets people up to have ZERO confidence in their salvation.
Trust me. I know. I lived that lie for 12 years. Praise God, I am free from it! Praise God, I know that, even though I sinned for many years, Jesus had not left me. And when the Holy Spirit was convicting me, that was really the Holy Spirit. When CLC teaches that you cannot have conviction of sin without the Holy Spirit, they better STOP judging people’s salvation based on their outward fruit. This is very confusing.
Jim, you said “As an aside, please compare CLC’s “a candidate should…” with the Scripture cited by THEM.Acts 8:12: “…when they believed…they were baptized, both men and women.””
True,
Acts 8:12 say that ….when they believed…. they were baptized” Agreed, but who told them to be baptized to begin with and why was John the Baptist running around yelling repent and be baptized?
It is not a requirement for salvation (the thief in the cross never got sprinkled, unless it rained that day) but it is done in obedience and with a desire to show others that you have been buried with Christ and raised again. To see the tears flow when a new believer comes up out of the water and is not doing something because he HAS to do it, is a site to behold. (I was one of those ex-druggies baptized in a jacuzzi during a Bible study at an AOG, and yes, the Holy Spirit fell on me as I came up out of the water – no one told me what to expect and what would happen. They just said “you want to be baptized since you area believer now?” They had already seen that I exhibited A,B,C,D and E in CLCs booklet)
Any church CLC, Baptist, etc is going to have a new believers class that will talk about baptism, communion, and yet because it is attached to SGM it must be heretical.
Why is everything about SGM so suspect? They use guitars and drums in worship, should they now be tossed out with all the other SGM heresy? Of course not, so why so quick so jump on a bandwagon over something that has been a part of Christianity going back to when John said “I am not worthy to tie your sneakers?” ? (NIV paraphrased)
Canary September 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
According to what is being posted here, young children would be turned away from baptism by SGM today.
Canary, I see so many kids being baptized, and it is left up to their parents to decide if they are ready, or just doing it since “Jimmy went in the water, I want to go to”.
Will kids go to Hell if they drink the wine and eat the bread? No – I did it all the time and it was just fun to get the grape juice. Meant nothing, and my parents i don’t believe are going to rot in Hell over this . I was infant baptized at an Episcopal church, but it wasn’t until at this Bible study baptism was explained (sort of 3what CLC does in their teaching so the new believer will know why baptism exists.
Canary – has your mom listened to Michael Savage yet? Gone to a Tea Party?
Sydney” That’s just like a teenage boy who I know who is in CLC. I remember the joyous day when he was 5 or 6 and he called me to tell me he got saved. And I remember many years of “fruit” in his capacity in his life. Now, as a teen, he has gotten himself in trouble because he sinned. He isn’t allowed to get baptized. He isn’t allowed to take communion. He’s now been deemed an unbeliever…why? Because he sinned in a way that CLC does not believe a saved person can possibly sin. He has conviction of sin. He has fruit in his life. He also sins.
And now his salvation is disqualified.
THIS is what I have a problem with, Paul. A MAJOR problem. This is pure, unadulterated legalism. This sets people up to have a convoluted perspective of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This sets people up to have ZERO confidence in their salvation.”
Sydney, where are this teenage boys parents? I have 2 sons. One now considers himelf an atheist at 28. Should he ever repent, it would be his decision whether to be baptized again. That’s what I did in the jacuzzi in my mid 20′s – I did the religious thing as a kid, but realized my need for a Savior and “owned” it for myself (it was no longer mommy and daddy’s religion) (Now – we could get into the whole “was I really a Christian doing drugs all those years, and what if I had died, since I “asked Jesus in to my heart at summer camp” but that is something entirely different)
As far as this example of this teen who has sinned and repented. He should take communion and his parents should be the judge of whether there is a true walk with God and repentance. I wouldn’t put up with it in my SGM church and would be vocal in the office, if it were my son. How can his salvation be disqualified? Murderers on crosses are forgiven. Are Mom n Dad silent? Maybe more knocking on doors, and confronting up to the next level, and less complaining to each other on the internet might see change.
As far as this teen who is now considered a non Christian, even after repenting,I’m going to email CLC and see if this is happening. I will get back to you when I get a response.
Paul said-
“Maybe more knocking on doors, and confronting up to the next level, and less complaining to each other on the internet might see change.”
I agree and disagree. I want to see more knocking on doors-more open communication with sgm pastors from the membership, but don’t fall for the party line that the blogs have had no impact.
Paul,
His parents are there. In the past, I know that they did go against CLC’s “rules” and allow him to take communion. I’m not sure now. They are obedient CLC members. They do not question their authority. They trust what is being taught them. Sadly, they are sorely mistaken. I have asked the parents if they believe he is saved. If they believe he was saved before he “fell into sin.” I THINK they believe he was and is. But, it’s hard to tell because, since I left SGM, they are very careful about what they tell me since they know I see all the horrible truth about SGM.
I know of past youth who have also fallen into sin. Here’s the deal, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them who remains in CLC believes that they were never saved before having fallen into sin, repented and “gotten saved again.” They are led to believe that they could not possibly have been saved and had sex with that classmate or gotten high with that other classmate or whatever the “sin of the day” might be. There is so much history of this. They have shared it from the pulpit. Pastors’ children have been under “church discipline” and then been restored. You cannot deny this.
Unless you’ve never been in CLC and didn’t live out those things. Perhaps that’s the case for you, Paul. Perhaps you are in a different SGM church. But, ask anyone at CLC if there have been generations of teens who have done this same thing.
That’s why they instituted this whole new procedure for being allowed to be baptized and thus being allowed to take communion.
As far as I know, they do not have “communion police.” BUT, when you are taught something is “biblical” and you don’t have it in you to question what you’re taught…ie…follow like blind sheep….then you will go along with what is set out before you.
Oh, and as for “confronting up to the next level…” Paul, I wrote a letter to CJ. He knows me. He has known me for many years. I received a modified form letter in response.
I will be responding to the form letter response.
Why are you wasting your time on blogs, Paul? Why are you “telling on the bloggers” by “calling CLC?” Don’t waste your time, bud. That’s silly.
Paul,
Yes, my Mom has heard Mike Savage, and yes, she has been to a tea party. She is presently working with a tea party group in town to organize the next one. Thanks for asking!
Oh, and as for baptism, I think it is entirely up to the parent whether a child is ready for baptism. That should be enough for a pastor. But, that’s my opinion according to what I see in scripture.
Sydney “Why are you wasting your time on blogs, Paul? Why are you “telling on the bloggers” by “calling CLC?” Don’t waste your time, bud. That’s silly.”
I am not “telling on the bloggers” If there is some truth to this, I’d like an explanation from someone at CLC. If we all stopped knocking on doors and just wrote about our experiences to each other on blogs there would be little change. My knuckles are raw from knocking and will continue until God calls me to move on. I believe if everyone exerted as much energy in staying and going together with their complaints you might see some change.
And, Jim, I do think the blogs are having an impact. It is sad that it has come to this. I am sure this was not your first choice.
Canary – keep your eye on you Mom, Savage and Tea parties are a dangerous combo – before you know it , she’ll be burning her Social Security Card and stop wearing her girdle
It’s interesting to see Consevatives “protest” compared to the Anarchist Left wing G8 summit folks, isn’t it? I’ll bet there wasn’t a piece of litter on the ground in Washington DC after the million person tea party. (CNN said there were only 10,000, and spent most of the camera time looking for the fringe right wing “Tim McVey”kooks)
WOW! I guess I opened a can of worms when I brought up baptism. Great discussion though. We baptized both of our kids in a hot tub at the beach after they both confessed faith in Christ. One of them is following the Lord and the other is not. Don’t quite know what to think of that but I’m going to let God sort it out. Our discernment is not the issue, God’s love is. We are present members of an SGM church but basically follow our own convictions in many areas. So far we haven’t been called on the carpet about it but then we ain’t been rockin’ the boat either.
Paul
As I have said before, one of the things these blogs do is give some exposure and in essence some form of accountability to what SGM Leaders have done. With how SGM defines what they consider gossip and slander has worked very well to keep a lot of their actions (including inappropriate actions) secret. A lot of regular members are in the dark with what the leaders have done. Thus these SGM leaders apparently have been able to abuse a lot of sheep with immunity.
I am sure that without this and the SGM Surivors blog, the leaders would continue and maybe even increase the level of abuse that they have done for years. Now with these blogs they are at least reluctant or have to think about what they do since they know that some of their actions will be published on these blogs for various people to scrutinize. For example, I am sure what the leadership did this year at SGM Chesapeake would have been much more egregious had their not been this blog reporting on what went on.
You mention taking more effort to write the leaders. I have written a few leaders and really haven’t gotten anywhere. I get the impression that these leaders are just about disregarding what is being brought up on these blogs. Hopefully I am wrong.
Have you read about Noel and Grizzly’s story on the SGM Survivors blog? They met with the leaders of the Fairfax SGM Church about how these leaders handled their 3 year old daughter being molested by a 15 year old male member. Reading their account isn’t that encouraging and makes one wonder what good it would do for others to try and approach leadership. As a number of people have shared, SGM Leaders have a big tendency to “turn the tables” on someone that goes to them. The SGM Leaders rather than address the issue want to point out problems they see in the member.
Below are links to Noel’s story:
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p.....wpmp_tp=10
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=583
This whole topic just slashes open a whole can of ugliness for me.
First of all – I feel the need to address Paul’s copied verbiage from the CLC website on baptism. The very word “candidate” makes me want to hurl. Candidate definition: applicant, job applicants, job-seeker, interviewee; contender, contestant, nominee. What, of ANY, of those words should be used to describe someone who is opening their heart to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and desiring to be baptized in Him and to walk with Him. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that a person needs to submit themselves for consideration on whether or not they are worthy of baptism. WHO is the judge and jury on THAT loaded decision? There is such carefully crafted wording that the pastors use to describe their “great responsibilities” as the shepherds of our souls. So do these ridiculous authoritarian leaders in SGM actually want to be held responsible on “that day” (to borrow a CJ-ism) for turning BELIEVERS into skeptics of their own salvation?!?! Do they want to have to stand before God and explain why so many BELIEVERS were not baptized simply because they, in their OWN human wisdom did not deem them to be worthy candidates…It’s not only appalling, but it’s wickedly sinful, unbiblical, and I’m going to go so far as to say of Satan, to make any believer, who loves the Lord and wants to submit their life to Him, prove himself to a Pastor (who in all likelihood doesn’t even know him well) who holds the key to whether or not he can be legitimately accepted into Christ’s family. It’s wicked.
The other thing that really gets me about this subject is causing, or attempting to cause, believers to question their salvation. Are there many, many people in the world who would call themselves Christians, yet are not really saved? Yes. BUT, that’s a different discussion and not what I’m talking about here. It was our experience with a pastor at SG that after taking my husband through a litany of non-sin issues that were made out to be total and complete depravity by this particular pastor, my husband was blatantly asked by this pastor if he REALLY thought he was saved. How he KNEW he was saved. No answer, no explanation of the glorious Gospel that my husband yearns after, no explanation of the “evidences of grace” that my husband shared with him, and no bold proclamation that my husband loves Jesus and desires to walk closely with Him were enough to convince this Pastor that without a doubt my husband (who’s been one of the most God loving men I know for 18 years) was actually saved. Why? Because he was struggling with leading his family (by his own admission), wanted to switch caregroups, watched TV at night instead of _____ (fill in the blank with whatever the SG flavorful trend of the month is), didn’t have his quiet time every single day, and had a habit of staying up too late at night which in turn made him tired a lot (and less equipped to lead his family – I guess?). What an evil husband I have…he’s probably not SAVED!
I don’t diminish the need for change in any of these areas…we ALL have areas that need attention and work in our lives, but what I do take major issue with is the arbitrary gavel that’s held firmly in the hands of the “pastors” (I use that term here loosely) at SGM who have set themselves up to be the final authority on whether someone is Guilty or Not-Guilty. Where is God in this movement? SG as a whole “claims” that they hold a lofty view of God…but, I submit to you all that the truth of the matter is that from the top down the leaders behave as if they hold God right underneath their feet.
I find it interesting that so much has been said about falling into sin being cause to question the validity of salvation and perhaps necessitating re-baptism. I’ve sinned since I was saved when I was 17 years old. If I had to be re-baptised every time I sinned, I’d spend my life in water.
It is NOT up to any human being to judge the sincerity of someone else’s salvation. I had that done to me and I was judged to be a fraud…by SGM leadership in front of a congregation. SHAME ON THESE PHARISITICAL, PRIDEFUL, ARROGANT MEN.
The good news is, they can all run their mouths until the cows come home, but it doesn’t nor will it ever make them right. I have, over time and lots of ups and downs, worked out my salvation with fear and trembling and pray that I never take that for granted. I pray that I continue to be confident that, no matter how I may slip and fall, my loving Father and Creator will always be right there to get me back up on my feet and won’t be standing off in the distance waiting for me to be re-baptized by some clown who thinks he has the right to stand in judgement over my heart…which, according to Scripture he can never know anyway.
I always thought, from the Word, that baptism was a time of extreme rejoicing much like a “party” marking the beginning of something new and wonderful, yet not perfect. Instead it sounds like SGM makes it some big relief that we’ve finally measured up to what man thinks we ought to be.
Paul,
Ha-Ha! My Mom doesn’t need a girdle – but I can see her burning her social security card. The government funds will probably run out way before she gets a chance to do that. Not that she doesn’t deserve soc. sec., as she paid into the system nearly all of her life!
Paul, I think it is good that you are “knocking”, and asking questions. I like to hear what you learn from SGM leadership.
I Got Out said :
“If I had to be re-baptised every time I sinned, I’d spend my life in water. ”
Amen!
For a church that is so hung up on being biblical – where the the biblical example???
Jim,
Michael Newnham here…if you could shoot me an email I have some information to share.
A word of encouragement for the royal priesthood believers from Brother Thomas.
From A Cave Of Knowing: Field Report/
Lambs To Lions Beat The Dragon
Now hear this (it will make sense on a deep level to some/to others will just sound nonsensical):
For a while, we’ve been on the run . . . . Hiding in caves, finding refuge here and there–bravehearts, purehearts, brothers and sisters lending a helping hand, best as they can. The enemy, led by a hateful tyrant filled with rage and bent on destruction . . . . hunts those dedicated to liberty, freedom, truth, love . . . .
We’ve been wounded—made many errors. Often we have been outflanked. Sometimes, through sheer blind courage and angst we have gone to field to meet the opponent, though out-manned . . . and were swept in battle . . . again, taking to the hills to salve our hurts . . . .
The little host of which we speak is of royal lineage–wayward prodigals, mostly looking as through a glass darkly. They see forms, are moved and led by whisperings of spirit, barely heard, from time to time . . . on the move yet . . . learning as they go, survival techniques, ways to defend against the ubiquitous foe. Were it not for the guiding protection of mighty battle-hardened angels, all would have fallen; but it is part of the plan, that the skirmishing royals be kept safe through all, though many times all has seemed lost and impossible.
BUT HERE IS A WONDER! The more broken, them more bereft of self power–this running royal band becomes impregnable and increasingly toughened, flint-like in resolve to find ultimate victory! What is actually happening in the unseen records of such deeds . . . rarely matches the scene on terra, on the ground . . . . For to the mortal eye–and even to the eyes of wrath-filled wizards and adepts attacking under the dragon banner–it would appear the royal children are hopelessly beaten, lost, demoralized, crippled . . . .
Ah, but in spirit, which transcends the merely temporary shiftings of energy-driven matter . . . what is seen, what is recorded, is success after success! The foolish tyrant who ravages the mere land is blind, as are his minions, to the accruing glory of the warrior saints, as they strive on with faithful fortitude . . . constantly chalking up victories which are actually heralded in the immortal skies, as the heavenly watchers smile in divine satisfaction. The dragon’s ruse’s seem to work for a time, and the battle on the ground looks hopelessly relinquished to the evil grins of the gloating goats and wolves . . . but wiser Eyes and Ears that Hear Observe that ALL IS WELL, and the Plan goes as intended.
It was meant for the princes and princesses to experience being thrown out–that the Children be left to wander and suffer for a season in the wilderness. That they may know their utter devastation without their Lord. For all works to the greater glory of the one true King, in His wisdom and all-knowing determinations . . . . And he seeks a family, once collected into the great halls of permanence that will dine and fest and adventure and serve throughout a far-flung universe and endless creation, kings and queens, priests and prophets, alongside angelic cohorts–these having been tested through the trials and fires of mortal staging.
Meanwhile, yet, there is a time . . . where the blessed vagabonds must scurry. They will collect here and there. They will be guided by lights, by sounds, by still, inner voice . . . carried ofttimes on wing . . . . They will part clouds, bring rain, heal the sick, teach the willing . . . as they wander and drive through the darkened world, while storm clouds gather on all fronts, side to side . . . .
Wondrous deeds of holy chivalry, knightly errands . . . many brave stands will be made–ALL recorded and marveled at by the hosts on high who lovingly regard the stubborn royals, who stand fearlessly in the gap, giving up of lives, of fortunes–for truth, honor, principle . . . but most of all for sheer love and devotion to their great Master and Lord, He Who shall one day be known by all as the King of Kings . . . .
Driven through battering rains, plummeting fires, shaking grounds, plagues and pestilence . . . harried by the swarming harpies, incubi, succubi, ghouls, veritable zombies–hordes of the living dead who stalk them day and night–YET, they carry on, undaunted. Or, if hurt for a time, confused, and in despair, nevertheless, these royal nomads (for they do not make house on shifting sands) recover and continue the fight. They cannot be beaten.
All the world’s treasures, technologies, resources, cunning . . . is arrayed against them–these relative few–yet invincible they turn out to be. The harder they are pushed, the harder they become in their resolve to make it to the final gates, where absolute protection and comfort perfectly awaits . . . .
Hold firm, stalwarts, though you fall and weave and cry out in frustration and anger. The eternal hearer knows all thy deeds of the heart and not a whit is missed! Your true intent . . . .
And slowly but surely, that intent will manifest–a character made for endless ages is being wrought, hammered on the anvil of human life, as intended by the great Artist and Creator of divine souls. The destroyers, jealous, fearful, bilious . . . will finally crumble–mad, insane, decrepit, shot through will wickedness and spiritual disease . . . and at last thrown into the furnace.
Hold on! There is more to do, more to suffer, more to prove, more tests to hone the mettle dearhearts, bravehearts, purehearts . . . .
Lambs become lions . . . and beat the dragon.
The Divine Eternal Father watches and waits . . . for His children to arrive, brought in by their Warrior Shepard, turned Lion to vanquish all adversaries.
this, a humble word from one such outpost . . . a scout on the wall, surveying the fields, the battlements . . . .
brother, thomas
Hi Old Timer
Thank you so much for sharing that very beautiful and powerful allegory. It made me cry; and in the press of life today, it was exactly the encouragement I needed to hear. Thank you!
That brought to mind two passages of scripture. From Psalm 37:34 “Wait for the Lord and keep His way. He will exalt you to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off you will see it.”
And from 2 Cor 1:8-10 “We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life………But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us, on Him we have set our Hope…..”
Thank you again for sharing that.
Thank you from me also, Old timer! I, too, was crying while I read certain parts of your post (while sitting in the Orthodontist’s parking lot while waiting for one of my kids).
A true word in season… thank you.
Aw Ellie, big, big hugs!!!
Watching Closely and Be Bold,
Do you know how things are faring in Gilbert church???
In Gilbert changes are afoot and it’s a good thing.
Rich’s message today was powerful. Col 1:1-7 laying the groundwork for doing away with anything that is not the gospel. Next week he is preaching on godliness. What does it mean to live a life that is focused on the gospel of Jesus alone.
All the negative ‘culture’ that has been a part of SGM will not be changed in a day but change is coming, we will stay in the meantime.
Will – So, is Gilbert pulling away from SGM? I’m not sure how the culture will change without severing themselves from the cult. I hope for your sake that you are correct (I sincerely do), but to be honest – I’ve heard next weeks message before.
From what I experienced, and from reading others’ stories, the gospel at SGM is still filled with leaven. It isn’t just about Jesus and salvation. It includes a lifestyle filled with burdens the people ought not to carry. Will that change, I wonder?
Will– Glad to hear you are encouraged by Richs teaching and that you have hope that “changes are afoot and its a good thing.”
And wondering:
Did you, as a church, receive a written form of exactly WHAT the hired law firms’ conclusions were for “everything to be done in accordance with the law”? (Like, what “everything” are they talking about?)
And, is everyone now crystal clear in regards to Steves role in the (Gilbert)church?
As for the SGM cultural change—-quite difficult to be ‘in” it—but not “of” it….without being adversely spiritually effected. **** May God equip and strengthen you and sharpen your discernment in your surroundings.
Waters,
What is your motive in asking these questions? No, really I’m wondering:
Why the pejorative use of capitalization and leading straw man questions?
Why would you be concerned about the clarity of roles in a church which you do not attend?
Is your goal to build up Will out of charity and love, or to tear down a church in which you have no part?
Where do you go to church now?
Did you ever attend the SGM Gilbert church?
Just wondering.
Chuck,
Scroll up to Waters’ postings on Sept 24th and 27th. Perhaps you can come to understand and then discern the answers for your questions. No need to wonder.
Waters,
I have read all of the posts on this thread and just re-read the ones you mentioned. Were any of your 19 years spent in AZ? If you’d like to e-mail me directly, that would be fine.
Chuck
reallygrateful@cox.net
While you’re asking all of these questions Chuck, remember to first ask yourself the same thing: “What is your motive in asking these questions?” No, really I’m wondering…is your goal,to build up your brethren out of charity and love, or to tear down a brother/sister in Christ? “Just wondering.” If you’re asking, be sure you first use the measure on yourself. To this bystander, it sounds like you’re on a witchhunt.
A just balance and scales are the Lord’s; all the weights in the bag are his work. Prov 16:11
Chuck,
I’m grateful that you offered to take the conversation offline. I’m personally weary of public debate.
I think that Waters’ questions were reasonable, and also informed, proving that there is some connection there.
I can’t speak for anyone here but myself, but as the guy who got this ball rolling, I can tell you that I have no desire to tear down a church or a denomination.
Assuming you are a member of a sgm church, you have either already benefited from the existence of this blog and survivors, or will benefit in the future.
Jim,
How can I contact you directly?
Chuck
Hi, Chuck, read the About section to find Jim’s contact information (and more).
Jim and Hope, Thankyou for your words on my behalf.
Chuck,
We willnot reveal our identity or where we go to church or which sgm church we were a part of. No, we choose not to contact you via your personal email. These debates are like a revolving door that never ends. Probably a more helpful investigation for your questions would be to go to the couples who left who were previously long time members.
In all sincerity, we do pray for the Gilbert church and love and respect the Senior Pastor.
For all the sgm churches, our prayer is that there will be a return to their first love—Jesus Christ……….learning of Him, knowing Him,hearing Him, following Him—above all others-because HE is the Resurrection and the Life.
Shalom to you, Chuck…we ‘ll not be responding to any of your questions (We see you do have communications ongoing on the Survivors website —perhaps that will be helpful to you also—I hope so).
- Waters
Thanks acme
Waters,
Thank you.
Chuck
I went to Sovreign grace Gilbert for a number of years. That church was great when I went there first but gradually went downhill. I do not trust or respect CJ, I think that his “leadership” is deeply flawed, and this filters downward. That said, I think Rich is a good guy….screw CJ though!