Still wounded said:
“I just want to recommend a good book called A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown. He is reformed, but he just seems so…so…FREE!! And I love his quotes. Here are some:
“When the requirement for acceptance in any particular group is to think certain thoughts, to act in certain ways, ad to fit in certain molds – and we don’t hink or act that way or fit the mold- we tend to fake it. We put on a mask that says, “I’m just like you. Now will you please love me and accept me?”
“The greatest tragedy of the church is that, in many cases, the most dishonest hour of the week is the hour we spend at church.”
“I’m a Presybeterian, and we believe in a doctine called ‘radical and pervasive depravity.’ If we find any depravity, however, we kick you out!” (I love that one – or you could say instead of kicking out, how ’bout beating up?).
“Freedom threatens religious people because it takes away their leverage and makes it more difficult for them to maintain control.””
Dennis posted a link to Steve Brown’s Scandalous Freedom podcast.
I’ve posted the link in the sidebar and can’t think of a better book to recommend to our readers.
Jim,
thanks for posting this info. I ordered the Organic church book you recommended. I also downloaded the first podcast. I can hardly wait to listen. thank you for pointing us to resources that will challenge us yet help us to see and taste freedom in Jesus.
My pleasure
I’m right in the middle of reading the book A Scandalous Freedom. My son sent it to me a few weeks ago. He attends an SGM church in Virginia, where alot of the members are reading it, and recommending it. It’s a great book, and it is being read by alot of very dear people at SGCC who love the Lord, and are trying to fix something that got broken along the way. And isn’t that what everyone is praying for?
carrol-it’s what I’m praying for.
Me too. But shouldn’t the process of fixing something that got broken along the way include attending to the wounded, stricken bodies they left laying along the path? It is not enough to just start afresh. It’s not enough. My sis and I would call this phenonmenon “boulders under the carpet”. So much “dirt” has been swept under the carpet over the years, good folks injured, marginalized, slandered and then cruelly ignored in the hope that they would just go away, that now it all adds up to boulders. You can vacuum and steam clean the carpet so that it looks like new again, but the boulders are a dead give-away that there is still more to the story. The leaders of SGM, the ones who have propagated erroneous, graceless doctrines for decades must lift up the carpet for all to see (this is humility) and own up to the damage done. There must be repentence and some effort to make things right by repenting to those who have been so terribly sinned against. Own up. IMO, of course.
Until that happens, I will rejoice with reports of change, especially change that involves a lessoning of the control that has long been a part of SGM. But my rejoicing with and for our brothers and sisters will not necessarily mean that I am confident the needed root changes have taken place. It will mean that I believe our brothers and sisters still attending SGM churches will be safer than we were in our day from overbearing “authority” and that SGM leadership now has some measure of public accountability (another safety for current members).
The Holy Spirit is working. Who will follow Him wherever He leads, regardless of the personal cost? That is what remains to be seen.
I have more to say, but I find that I am being a bit intense and the moment. Need some of the jiggler’s humor…
Gracie,
I could use some jiggler myself.
Early reports are that CJ is responding quickly to those who participated in “letters to CJ”. I honestly believe that he was unaware of most of these situations.
Should the individual pastors who have left a trail of roadkill in their wake reflect on their past and reach out to those they have burnt? Absolutely.
BUT, it is good to know that many of the pastors involved in the “letters to CJ” accounts are leaning forward, and I expect some God honoring results in some of the situations. Maybe not all-it’s too soon to tell.
Maybe this is step one-CJ realizes that there really is a problem, and that the commenters here and at survivors aren’t making this stuff up.
Maybe… just maybe, CJ will encourage SGM pastors to pony up and start pursuing those they’ve hurt in the past.
Time will tell, but at this point I’m encouraged.
Encouraged, but far from flying the “mission accomplished” flag.
I agree whole-heartedly with my sister above.
I also believe that the accountability this site and others have brought to SGM is monumental. Even in the midst of their huge protests to these sites and frequent warning to SGM members to avoid us.
Would all this talk of change be going on were it not for this site? Doubtful. The Lord does indeed work in mysterious ways. Now, if SGM leaders came on here and listened, read, and took to heart our comments and then moved appropriately from there…that would be something to make note of.
Thanks, Jim. Any encouragement, any step is to be celebrated. I need to keep that in mind. Maybe they are attending to some of the injured. I hope so. I truly do. I really don’t mind this being a process as long as all parties realize it is a process and not the end of the journey. I don’t see any quick fix to this mess.
Though I have left SGM far behind many years ago, members of my own dear family are still deep in the throes of this. Still injured. Still unattended to. I don’t want to see any more of them walk away from the Lord because of SGM. Our family is fractured. Maybe that’s one source of my intensity? I find that I am impatient for something tangible that has positive repercussions in my family’s world. YEARS are being lost in our relationships because of this craziness. Redeem, Lord Jesus!
At any rate, I respect you and Carole, so if you are encouraged, I will sincerely take that to heart.
IGO, not surprising that we agree here!
Jim said:
“Early reports are that CJ is responding quickly to those who participated in “letters to CJ”. I honestly believe that he was unaware of most of these situations.
Should the individual pastors who have left a trail of roadkill in their wake reflect on their past and reach out to those they have burnt? Absolutely.”
I know of at least one case where C.J. Mahaney participated in the abuse himself. His part from what I heard was that he refused to review the actions of the pastors under him even though a long time member who was “asked” to leave asked him to do so.
Gracie, I’m feeling your pain, and praying for your family. He loves them more than we can Gracie. He hears our cries…
Gracie,
Big, big hugs! I hear what you are saying. The Lord can redeem what has been lost, and give back even more. Job saw that happen. I pray for your family to be reunited in HIS love. How beautiful that will be.
But, I do not minimize the wounds you and your sister have suffered. I pray for Jesus to speak comfort and hope to your hearts as your wait to see His powerful hand restore what has been lost. Also, that the joy of the Lord will give you strength. Your feathered friend.
Thanks, Charlie.
Thanks Canary.
There is still much healing to be done among my beloved family. Sometimes my patience runs a bit thin…
That’s okay, Gracie. It’s because you love them so much…
Thanks so much for this posting. My husband and I have been listening to the podcasts and enjoying them immensely. To be fair, some of what he is teaching has been taught in our SGM church back when Mark Mullery came in. He seemed to think we needed to grow in grace and began a foundational series. If I am remembering right Benny Phillips also was teaching on grace when our church began the turn into reformed theology. For whatever reason, I need to hear this message of freedom over and over because it’s so easy to get caught up in legalism. So thanks again for the lead!
Jim, Still wounded said: “I just want to recommend a good book called A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown. He is reformed, but he just seems so…so…FREE!!”
Living in Orlando, where Steve is s seminary professor at Reformed Theological Seminary, I have benefited from his teachings many time over the years.
With a gift of evangelism, and a desire to reach the lost, I was under so much bondage before I realized it was God who changed hearts, not my convincing arguments why they needed a Savior. I would torture myself, reliving conversations I had with folks for not saying this or that…. But that is only part of the reason for my note.
Your mentioning his book is an excellent idea, and I was wondering if you might consider a future topic where you ask for readers top 5 books that they would take to a desert island. You know, those books that they return to over and over (like I’m doing with A.W. Tozer’s “The Pursuit of God” with my wife now.)
Just an idea, but it would be interesting and probably beneficial to hear what books we have all considered milestones in our Christian walk that we could share with each other.
Paul
…just wondering, where is mr. jiggler – does anyone know? I miss him.
Paul,
My husband and I did a book study many years ago on Tozer’s The Pursuit of God. It was incredibly rich and re-energized our spiritual lives which had been a bit dry. I sometimes pull it out and read portions again because it is so encouraging. We are also love, love, loving Steve Brown’s podcasts! I’m starting to think in a newer, freer(is that a word?) way about my salvation and relationship with Jesus. Something I haven’t felt for a while. God is so good and faithful to lift us up when we are down.
I like your idea about favorite books. One of our earliest favorites were the C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia. It made us feel so close to Jesus. In recent years I have enjoyed some of Jerry Bridges’ books, love John Piper, and also have read part of Blue Like Jazz which was really outside the box and helped broaden my perspective about God’s work in our hearts. Thanks for the suggestion.
Lost on a desert Island and only allowed 5 Books (along with your Bible)?
C S Lewis – Mere Christianity
A W Tozer – The Pursuit of God
John Piper – Desiring God
Andrew Murray – Humility
Gary Thomas – Seeking the Face of God
Mack-
I LOVE Blue Like Jazz.
It is outside the box…just where I believe God is. Although I think He’s both in and out of the box. Not contained in any box-like man-made container!!!
Ellie:
The jiggler has been in self-imposed exile but has decided to return for you. The jiggler hopes you are well, misses your laughs and hopes that all is right as rain in your neck of the woods tonight (and tomorrow for that matter.)
The jiggler can also report that he conducted himself with aplomb at his church recently when it was visited by a former sgm pastor. Yes, it is true that the jiggler tried to throw spit balls at him during worship but was restrained by his smokin’ hot wife. Fortunately for all involved the sermon could not have been more uncomfortable for a former sgm pastor so the likely-hood of his return is small. (it was heavy on love and light on law)
The jiggler’s five books would be:
The Divine Conspiracy – Dallas Willard
Mere Christianity – Clive Lewis
The Complete Tales of Sherlock Holmes – Arthur Conan Doyle
Harry Potter (all of them) - J.K. Rowling
Speaker for the Dead – Orson Scott Card
The jiggler also has a penchant for dystopian fiction and would be tempted to sneak in a copy of 1984 and Brave New World but they tend to depress him so he would need to have company on the desert isle.
The jiggler also likes anything written by Eugene Peterson, N.T. Wright, Peter Kreeft, G.K. Chesterton and John Eldredge.
The above is for edification and socialization and should not be seen in any way as self-aggrandizing. The jiggler does not self-aggrandize, he has minions to do it for him. (Except for the spit ball part, that was self-aggrandizing. The jiggler desperately desires street cred when it comes to projectile throwing in church.)
BTW, for those of you still in sgm churches, the jiggler contends that your church bookstore shelves are lined with tripe, fit neither for burning for warmth nor for lining canary cages. People are in the mess they are in because of the books they read (or don’t.)
Start with Willard’s Divine Conspiracy, it will blow your mind.
Peace out homies.
m/ >.< m/
sic semper tyrannis
Ellie and Jiggler: I, too, was concerned that the jiggling had stopped. Glad to see he’s still wiggling and jiggling, ’cause I need some giggling. Thanks!
Ahhhhhhh…
I’m slow but I finally know who the Jiggler is!!!!!!!
It was driving me crazy. Your wife is smokin’ hot!! And sweet as can be.
Since the Jiggler has decided that his “5″ books will included
The Complete Tales of Sherlock Holmes – Arthur Conan Doyle (4 Novels and 56 short stories) and Harry Potter’s 7 books , as well as The Divine Conspiracy – Dallas Willard
Mere Christianity – Clive Lewis and Speaker for the Dead – Orson Scott Card, leaving him with a total of 19 books and 56 short stories, The Paul thought he should add to his collection ” A Math Alphabet Book by David M. Schwartz”, which will help him understand that 5 is 5, even in Jiggleworld.
Using Jigglers Math I would take all of Lewis’s books, as well as all of Tozer, Piper, Thomas, and Andrew Murray (Plus Matthew Henry’s Commentary, since it is a commentary and not really a book)
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Square Peg: the jiggler sends his regards and trusts that you’ve given up the whole round hole thing and wishes you the best in finding a suitable square one.
I Got Out: the jiggler confesses he is puzzled by your discovery and humbly wonders what it was that gave him away. Should you be kind enough to enlighten the jiggler, he will consider you an ally with all the rights and privileges normally associated with that office. The jiggler hopes that you fully understand the burden you now carry and will be watching to see that you conduct yourself in a discrete manner. Should you choose to misuse the information you now possess the jiggler may have to arrange an accident. The jiggler hates arranging accidents but alas he is quite good at it and sometimes they are necessary to keep all the plates spinning.
Paul: The jiggler detects a hint of sarcasm in your post. While it is true that the jiggler’s undergraduate degree is in one of the humanities (the exact subject must remain undisclosed lest the jiggler’s identity be revealed even further) his doctorate work and post-doctorate work are in the theoretical field of awesomeness. The jiggler will not condescend to try and explain how jiggler(5) = 19 books and 56 short stories because it might hurt your widdle head. This is the deep end of the pool and there are sharks about. Away knave and back to your commentaries.
The jiggler is vexed by his conspicuous absence from the random quotes section on the main page of this blog.
The “panties in a wad” one should suffice.
Number One, make it so!
Jiggler:
I have not posted in awhile and we have never met but I saw you like:
The Complete Tales of Sherlock Holmes – Arthur Conan Doyle
Have you ever seen the Granada Televison serializations of the tales with Jeremy Brett. Brett was the best actor ever to play Holmes.
::::happy sigh::::
Glad you’re back, TJ!
btw: I nominate this quote of yours:
“Consequently, the jiggler is training his children to hunt their children down, tackle them, and lick them on the face while screaming “NOW YOU’LL NEVER BE ACCEPTED INTO PASTOR’S COLLEGE! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”
formersgmer:
The jiggler has always been partial to Nutmeg Rathbone as SH. Perhaps that is because he is who the jiggler remembers most from Saturday mornings. However, you are the second or third person to recommend Jeremy Brett so perhaps the jiggler will have to track that series down and experience it for himself.
Ellie:
The MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA just makes it doesn’t it?
The Jiggler” Paul: The jiggler detects a hint of sarcasm in your post.”
No hinting – straight out and out unbridled tongue in cheek. 5 = 5.
Reminds me of the time, during summer, I asked my (now 28 year old) son, “just how many books HAVE you read in the last month?”. He stared me straight in he the face and said “4″ . I said,” what where their names?” – He said “Matthew, Mark Luke and John”.
No Jig (can I call you jig for short? ) the idea was trying to come up with classics to share. Things we’ve read over and over because of the impact on our lives.
And this classic line by The Jiggler “BTW, for those of you still in sgm churches, the jiggler contends that your church bookstore shelves are lined with tripe, fit neither for burning for warmth nor for lining canary cages. People are in the mess they are in because of the books they read (or don’t.)”
You are right, I do miss Joyce Myers, Benny Hinn and Robert Schuller, and T.D. Jakes.
These Reformed and Puritan writers print nothing but tripe , Jeremiah Burroughs , John Owen, Jonathan Edwards,Thomas Watson,John Bunyan, Matthew Henry, Andrew Murray, R. C. Sproul, Willem Teellinck, C.J. Mahaney,Joel R. Beeke, Jacques Ellul, Jerry Bridges, J.I Packer, A.W .Tozer, John Calvin, Anthony A. Hoekema, Paul David Tripp, Gary Thomas, C.S. Leis,Thomas Keller,D. A. Carson,Mark Dever,Ligon Duncan,Os Guinness, Wayne Grudem,John MacArthur,David Powlison,Edward T. Welch,Donald S. Whitney,Douglas Wilson, Randy Alcorn, rthur Pink, Sinclair Ferguson,. Yes Jiggler – nothing but Tripe! Tripe – nothing but tripe. Would he much rather go to the Charisma Web site for his Biblical knowledge.
Lttle “throwing out with the bathwater”wouldn’t you say? Of course if the jiggler is an Arminian, I can understand the offense. But if he is tossing out a bookstores contents because it is in a SGM church, he is missing out on classics he will not find in his basic “Lifeway Christian Bookstore” where Max Lucado is the best seller. Or this months Best seller “The Shack by William P. Young”
wow-random quotes needs an update-that’s some really old stuff.
Good to see you here, jig.
Jiggler, you’ve said far more clever things than the panties comment. I second Ellie’s nomination.
Jiggler, I think I know who you are – are you Batman? No wait, he didn’t have a hot wife, just a trusted butler. Phooey…guess I’ll have to keep guessing.
Jeremy Brett played a great Holmes in the Granada TV series. I haven’t seen anyone do better, yet!
Third nomination….
the “MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA” sealed it.
The Jigggler “Paul: The jiggler detects a hint of sarcasm in your post. ”
“Hint” Nah, that was full blown tongue in cheek.
No, it reminded me of my (now 28 year old) son years ago, when I was asking him how his summer reading list was doing. With a straight face he said “I’ve already read four books! (Summer was almost over) When I asked for the titles he said “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.”
So in light of the Jigglers addition of all of Harry Potters and Holmes books, I hearby switch my FIVE island books to the complete works of Tozer, C S Lewis, Piper, Andrew Murray and all of the books that are mentioned in Gary Thomas’s book “Seeking the Face of God”
I would add 1 Corinthians 13 and the whole book of Galatians as a starting point for any who have breathed in the stench of SG’s “sound doctrine”.
Paul-when has anyone suggested Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, or Robert Schuller on this site?
The jiggler is on location so he must keep his comments brief. He will return to his native NC soon at which time he will give Paul the sound thrashing he desperately needs. Easy Jim, this is redemptive work. Suffice it to say for now that the jiggler is definitely not reformed. He’s jigglerminian and believes we live in a world where choices are meaningful and doesn’t have to rely on God having 327 different wills to make it so.
Musicman “Paul-when has anyone suggested Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers, or Robert Schuller on this site?”
No one MM, but the joy of having a bookstore in your church is that you aren’t assaulted with the “latest big name” on the bookstore circuit (Meyers, Olsteen Schuller, etc.) It is the same in any church’s bookstore (Baptist, Methodist etc)- they are not forced to carry something just because it is on the latest hit parade.
You may hate the “stench of SG’s “sound doctrine”, but surrounding those you despise in our bookstore, are the giants I listed earlier. Jeremiah Burroughs , John Owen, Jonathan Edwards,Thomas Watson,John Bunyan, Matthew Henry, Andrew Murray, R. C. Sproul, Willem Teellinck, C.J. Mahaney,Joel R. Beeke, Jacques Ellul, Jerry Bridges, J.I Packer, A.W .Tozer, John Calvin, Anthony A. Hoekema, Paul David Tripp, Gary Thomas, C.S. Lewis,Thomas Keller,D. A. Carson,Mark Dever,Ligon Duncan,Os Guinness, Wayne Grudem,John MacArthur,David Powlison,Edward T. Welch,Donald S. Whitney,Douglas Wilson, Randy Alcorn, G.K. Chesterton, Arthur Pink, Sinclair Ferguson.
These are the writers that you will find hidden on the back shelves of 90% of your Mall Bookstores, while the smiling face of Benny Hinn and company are on the front shelves.
So Musicman – if you were stuck on your island which 5 books would you bring along?
And MM, Galations? Our SGM church did a whole study on Jerry Bridges “Transforming Grace”. Maybe all SGM churches aren’t cut from the same mold.
Jiggler “He will return to his native NC soon at which time he will give Paul the sound thrashing he desperately needs.” It’s obvious that the Jiggler has lost his sense of humor, and needs to unravel his panties, “since he feels the need to give Paul the sound thrashing he needs”.
Jiggler – I was never Reformed, until I read Paul’s encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. Then it hit me – Paul wasn’t given a CHOICE was he? Pretty nasty of God not to allow Paul to decide if he wanted to be used by God, don’t you think?
Anyhow – this Arminian, Reformed argument has been going on for 2,000 years and will not be solved on any blog anytime too soon. In the end, all I know is “Christ and Him crucified”
Jig-no worries.
Paul-the last thing you want to do on this blog is play the “my church is different” card.
As you know, I know a whole lot about your church.
“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Paul did have a choice–he could have said, “No” on that road to Damascus even with the blinding, even with the voice, and even with the healing. He could have said “yes” for a while and then been discouraged by the beatings and shipwrecks and the critics who said to focus on God’s chosen people, the ones who look like us (by which I mean the people of God) and keep all of our rules.
As I read the Bible, I am amazed again and again how often we eat the manna and then worship the golden calf, get fed with the 5000 and then walk away busy with the rest of our lives, sit at Jesus’ feet and cast out demons in His name — and then betray Him, and on and on.
What does our Father do? In Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son, the Father gives us our inheritance and lets us go to make our own choices to wander far, then runs to meet us when we choose to return.
Studying the Bible, especially word meanings, became important to myself and my husband when the doctrinal issues of authority arose in SGM, just before we left. Is it really possible that pastors teach scriptural principles without knowing that some of it is wrong, because they don’t know the Greek meaning in translation? Mr. Viola and others (as well as a very good Concordance), helped us get the true intention of the NT writers, especially about authority, as we learned to grasp a little of the language. It was very freeing. It doesn’t take a huge education to be able to do this. Even nine months in a pastor’s college would suffice.
______said- “But overall, SGM does not teach people how to study the Bible for themselves.”
This is a fact, and I think is one of the broad brush statements we can make about sgm culture. The sad truth is that this is not taught in the PC, and I would say that most, if not all sgm pastors have no idea how to do this. I think that their understanding of exegesis begins and ends with sermon prep.
Paul-your sr p thinks that Timothy was a “pastor in training”, and has used this reference often. Not a huge doctrinal issue, but clearly shows his inability to correctly understand Scripture.
Paul,
Alcorn right next to Chesterton on your list. What in the world? You were just spewing out big names generally considered “conservative”, I assume. Cause I cant imagine that SGM is now helping to resurrect confessional Catholics like Chesterton to the status of demigods (“Giants of the faith”) like they have done with a number of conservative evangelical leaders.
Ah, and dont look down too much on people who buy and sell Jozce Mezer and Joel Osteen. In my SGM experience, people bought Piper, MacArthur, Biblical counseling stuff etc. with the almost exact same mentality that others buy Osteen etc., namely: “THIS is IT! Oh, ah…. a new book by Piper, MUST buy! This will help me grow, this will revolutionize mz spiritual life, if I only “apply” it…”
Paul-
Here’s the thing…I’ve actually read some of those authors (Hinn, etc…) and I’ve found them wanting for Biblical support and their methods of fundraising.
But I am not afraid to walk into a bookstore, knowing that their might be some garbage on the shelves. Personally, I think Piper is brilliant in some areas and legalistic in other areas. I find Bridges material dry and I don’t agree with his ideas of disciplined grace. But I also view Jerry as a faithful Christian who served most of his years in obscurity sharing the gospel and discipling new believers in a para-church ministry.
Your idea that you would let your pastors think for you by telling you which authors to read or not read is very telling….I share their concerns for someone like Benny Hinn and would be willing to express my concerns-but I’d also encourage anyone to read his works and compare it to scriptures in order that they would know for themselves and not just because I told them so….do you see the difference?
I’ll have to get back to you on my 5 favorite books for desert island reading…
peace-mm
Just use your God-given discernment when reading any material and be a noble-minded Berean.
And the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea; and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so. -Acts 17:10, 11
Dear Kindred,
You are absolutely right. Good verse, too.
Famagusta
October 3rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Famagusta, you’re back?
When we gonna get together and talk, off the blog?
Paul,
As usual, you’re easily offended and manage to find some way to “discern” a motive.
I don’t think I’m special, and I don’t recall implying that. A lot of people know about your church and it’s leaders. I thought that it would be good to remind you that this is the wrong place to play the “my church is different” card.
Your father/children analogy only makes sense in a belief system that does not have clear qualifications for it’s leaders.
Jim”Paul,As usual, you’re easily offended”
I am not offended, I know I serve with men and women able to error and sin as easily as I do. ( I used your kids, but I could use the same analogy with mine. )
My question in all of this is this: “WHAT DID BELIEVERS DO BEFORE ALL THESE AUTHORS AND THEIR BOOKS APPEARED ON THE SCENE?”
Oh My Goodness….they had to read the word of GOD…they had to depend on the HOLY SPIRIT to guide and teach them…They had to TRUST GOD to lead them on the path HE had chosen for their lives (not the ones men feel they have to force on them).
PEOPLE DID WE CHECK OUR BRAINS AT THE DOOR WHEN MODERN TECHNOLOGY CAME IN? We have the same incredible opportunity the early saints had to implore the Holy Spirit to teach us the ways of the LORD. If I remember correctly, it was when MEN got in the way, deciding what was right or wrong, when men started following men that the confusion, schisms, and denominations arose.
Do we need “man” in our lives? I think so: to fellowship with, to bear our grief with, to rejoice with, to encourage us and to hold us accountable to the word of GOD…Do we need “man” to tell us what the word of God means for us (because we are too ignorant to understand) ? I THINK NOT…. Jesus said HE would send a comforter, not more men to show us the way!
My greatest memories of “joy with & in the LORD”, is when HE has revealed that special thing I need to change my life….Oh the happiness that comes realizing, again and again, that HE loves me enough to personally spend that precious time with me. NO MAN, his book or interpretation of the scripture can match that rapturous moment!
Why read about the author of the book, when the author HIMSELF is waiting to share HIS book with you.
I know FF Bruce and Gordon Fee are and we have Reformed Theological Seminary just down the road and are encouraged to scour it’s bookstore (It is one of CJ’s favorite places to go when in town for The Legionairres Convention)
Musicman “Personally, I think Piper is brilliant in some areas and legalistic in other areas. I find Bridges material dry and I don’t agree with his ideas of disciplined grace. ”
Piper legalistic? Why because he speaks out against gay/lesbian ministers? Name me one instance of Piper’s legalism – it’s easy to toss the “Legalism Grenade”
Musicman, you also said “But I am not afraid to walk into a bookstore, knowing that their might be some garbage on the shelves. “, and you’d “encourage anyone to read his works and compare it to scriptures in order that they would know for themselves and not just because I told them so….do you see the difference? (Benny Hinn)” Music Man,with so many books and so little time, why waste your time, just so you can say you read it? AND, Whywould you suggest someone read heresy? (ie Good Morning Holy Spirit -Due to some rather startling statements in the original edition of Good Morning,Holy Spirit, Hinn came under fire from a few organizations that perceived serious doctrinal discrepancies in Hinn’s theology.
The most public criticism of Hinn’s teachings came from the Christian Research Institute which took Hinn and his publisher, Thomas Nelson Company, to task for what CRI perceived as heretical statements.Thomas Nelson Company spokesman Bruce Barbour (publisher) and Bill Watkins (senior editor) as well as Hinn, say that the theology expressed in the original edition has not been changed but merely “clarified.”Good Morning,Holy Spirit, Hinn states that “Jesus-died-spiritually”
Further, MM,So does that mean that every Baptist, Methodist etc church that has a bookstore have to carry Anton Levay’s Satanic Bible, The Urantia Book, The Koran, etc? Wouldn’t want to leave out any other false theology (that is rhetorical in case you thought I was serious) Since the bookstores in churches are there to equip the saints, wouldn’t it seem reasonable that those that oversee the bookstore, stand behind the books doctrinally? Why would they carry something that is diametrically opposed to the beliefs of the church? You have your Mall Bookstores if you want to wade through the garbage looking for the trinkets (like I said before) that are hidden under dust in the back.
Famagusta, I mistakenly added Chesterton, but all the other names are there.(Chesterton may be , I will have to look.) So, to advise someone that a “Piper, Keller , Gordon Fee, Christian Counseling etc will help in ones growth is offensive to you, how do you go about telling folks good movies you’ve seen or music that you may like? Your analogy that the books are rfaulty , unless applied, is true, but that mean that books should not be mentioned?
What I find amazing is that I was hoping to gather a list of a minimum of 5 booksfrom those on this site to add to my libraary. Those “classics” that have been read over and over , and instead, I received a few offerings but mostly attacks at any SGM bookstore that would dare have any author over any other author. I thoought coming up with 5 names would be easy, but I guess with the pain and anger at SGM, any other thoughts are distant.
And dear Jim”Paul-the last thing you want to do on this blog is play the “my church is different” card.As you know, I know a whole lot about your church.”
I am sure if I sat with your children they could come up with many unGodly things you did or said in the years they grew up in your home. Are you disqualified as a father? No, you are just a Dad like me, hoping and praying to do his best. Because you have “dirt” on my church makes you special? Jim, find me a church in the world that is spotless.
Ok Paul-was just wondering where the “makes you special” comment came from.
Do you think the Biblical qualifications for elders matter? I don’t see a lot of calling and gifting mentioned in regards to elders in Scripture. I do see some very specific qualifications.
This discussion about our top five books to have on a desert island is interesting and helpful. Here are mine:
1. Bible
2. Doctrine of the Atonement according to the Apostles (George Smeaton).
I believe that it was J.I. Packer who said that if her could have one book besides his bible this would be it. I have only read parts of it but it is rich.
3. A Passion For Souls: A biography of D.L. Moody.
If you care about evangelism this book will motivate you further.
4. The Roots of Endurance by John Piper.
This book contains short biographies of Charles Simeon, John Newton and William Wilberforce. This book is the best of Piper’s biographical series. The section in the Simeon biography called the “unripe self” really helped me put into perspective how overzealous SGM has become about mortification of sin.
I think you will also be blessed reading about how John Newton’s life of “Habitual Tenderness”. It is quite the opposite of some of the behaviors we have read about and experienced with SGM pastors. It will give you a new vision of what pastoral ministry can be.
5. All things for Good – Thomas Watson.
Sometimes Puritans take a beating on this blog but Watson is one of the easier Puritans to read and this book will encourage you.
6. (I cheated). Th Glory of Christ – John Owen.
SGM has given a one sided perspective of Owen. The man was not all about mortificaton of sin.
Mimi:
You made some good points in your 10:30. Books are not meamt to be the entire source of our Christian growth. I think with CJ’s exhortations to “build a library” there is a certain intellectualism which has overtaken SGM and caused people to forsake the scriptures. Before we left, my wife and I used to marvel at caregroup at how many people never brought their bibles or how those who did rarely referred to them.
Here is a quote I found from Charles Spurgeon (another guy who I believe CJ selectively quotes from) regarding books and the Scriptures:
“Many books in my library are now behind and beneath me. They were good in their way once, and so were the clothes I wore when I was ten years old; but I have outgrown them. Nobody ever outgrows Scripture; the book widens and deepens with our years.”
1. The Bible
2. Some sort of How to manual identifying edible plants, building rafts and huts, first aid, etc for said tropical island
3. Collected works of CS Lewis: Mere Christianity and the Space Trilogy in particular
4. Collected works of Jane Austen
5. An Essay Reader (maybe 50 Essays) with Plato, Jefferson, Truth, Douglass, Machiavelli, Didion, King, plus funny ones like Sedaris and Barry
Paul, as we have reconnected lately by email and the very nice dvd of memories from my former SGM fellowship that you sent me i find by surprise that while you recommennded to me not to visit or posts on these sites; here you are. It is this blatant do as i say not as i do underlying philosophy that SGM’ers embrace that makes my skin crawl. Because someone mentioned it had been covered, i listened to my former senior pastor’s defense of the basketball idol. totally mishandling the use of hebrews 11 and the parable of the widow’s mite, while not actually addressing the over-riding issue of how sports (particularly basketball) has more pre-eminance on the schedule and attendance. it is a false gospel being taught. Plus, he said two absolutely false things in that message. 1. that the church voted on having the basketball court as the center of the builing. we did not get a vote. I was there. it was justified as an outreach!!! Not really happening. 2. the other appalling thing was that he would encounter more opportunity to be sanctified on the basketball court then sitting at home with his wife and children. Really??? I thought SGM taught that the family was the primary place of sanctification starting with marraige. i remember when he talked about putting his oldest son up against a wall for dis-respecting his wife which revealed anger issues–is this not part of the sanctification process?? I was weeping at the end of that message. 1. Because a man i respected and thought was a good teacher of the word could be so twisted in his understanding of scripture and 2. that so many people actually would still think this is good teaching and 3. that he would both publicly lie and mis-handle scripture to justify his idolitry. i fear for him and those who sit under his teaching. Ummm, are we still going to be on for dinner after you read this post??? BTW, said these same things when one of the pastors from said fellowship came over for a second time to talk to my wife and I.
Now as to 5=5 and new math. i would want all Tom clancy novels, all the dune novels, asimov’s foundation series. Those books along with the Bible would keep me occupied for a while. Actually i would like a kindle and a power source to drive it so my entire library could be stranded with me!!!!
As far as bookstores, i am no longer interested in what other men write about what they believe the scripture means. to much error. I will stick to the word of God which has set me free!!!
John Galt said-
“I fear for him and those who sit under his teaching.”
So do I. Unfortunately, that’s a lot of people, considering this man’s position and circle of influence.
Former SGM’r
You are absolutely correct, my comments were referring to all the commotion here especially with Paul concerning the “only” correct books that one should read. I have many books in my library. However, I believe they are ones HE led me to, knowing what I need to learn and grow with as HE desires. Not books that are “all the rage” because they are by certain contemporary or past revered writers.
Former SGMr
Through the years, many books have been given to me. FEW peak my interest when it comes to “explaining the word of GOD to me”. However, there are those that help bring me into the sweet presence of the throne room, when they direct me to the beauty of HIS grace and mercy. Those that remind me of the graciousness of his love…if they can point me back to HIS word, creating a hunger for more of HIM…they are for me.
Paul-
I find the whole Hinn discussion a waste of time…I agree he espouses a heretical version of the Trinity. So what? No one here has ever quoted him or encouraged others to do so…that was my main point to begin with.
As for Piper-yes-I think he elevates the role of Pastor in (“Brothers, We are Not Professionals”) to a legalistic burden of mediators of the gospel instead of grace filled proclaimers of the gospel. Read it for yourself if you don’t believe me. I thought his inklings about Martin Luther King Jr. were great and very insightful-Piper’s a mixed bag in my book.
As for the Satanic Bible comment-come on….now your just bordering on the ridiculous. Do you really think that my comment was to promote bad theology and ungodly literature?
On the other hand-I used to do ministry with Muslims and Satanists-some of whom came to Christ, others who at least heard the Gospel and why I was a Christian. This sometimes meant reading Muslim literature and the Koran and finding a little out about Satanism and Spiritual warfare. It’s helpful to know what people believe when you reach out to them-I found it helpful to understand why they believed what they did and made me search the scriptures for ways to counter their errors or ill-conceived ideas of God.
As for you-why do you put up with preaching that is diametrically opposed to love and the Grace of the Gospel of Jesus?
FormerSgm-
Good Spurgeon quote- I love his book “Lectures to my Students”….good stuff.
Back on Sept 21st this came up:
Paul
September 21st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Just an idea, but it would be interesting and probably beneficial to hear what books we have all considered milestones in our Christian walk that we could share with each other.
This question led to anger, fingerpointing and hysteria.
Glad he didn’t ask what everyone’s favorite movies were.
Hasta la Vista
Paul, err… “Gotta a migraine”
anger, fingerpointing and hysteria
Really?
“It is worse for a liar to tell the truth than for a lover of truth to tell a lie.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)
Ironically, the deceitful person usually ends up deceiving himself in the process, to the point that he is unable to discover his own state of ignorance, precisely because his state of being deceived necessarily precludes him from recognizing his predicament, much like insanity precludes the madman from becoming cognizant of his delirium.
A person who is deceived does not know it because, well, he is deceived. How tragic when this condition is the fruit of what he himself has sown. At this point the liar comes full circle to the point where he can speak the truth effortlessly, but only with what is now a native intent to perpetuate deceit; in Bonhoeffer’s words, this is a person who has “fallen away”.
http://www.americanthinker.com.....e_mea.html
Musicman, I agree with “your take” on Piper.
Just be “Berean,” folks. I don’t care what you’re reading or who you’re listening to, just be a “Berean.” One thing that amazed me when I became a Christian is how the Holy Spirit personally guided me as to what to read and who to listen to. I could pick up a book by a “Christian” author and almost immediately be impressed as to whether it was something I needed to be reading or not. The same was true of the teaching I listened to.
I’ve never been concerned that I’d read something that would harm me in some way…God has ALWAYS used what I’ve read to “grow me” mentally, spiritually, or physically. He’s even used the “garbage” I’ve read.
God has DEFINITELY been sovereign in all I’ve read.
Acme, I like your list.
Thank you Kindred for you comment above. It never ceases to amaze me how some people can be so spiritually “high and mighty” to think it is their job to decided whether or not a certain Christian author has value or should be shunned. I’ve read many, many books “poo-pooed” by SGM and have walked away from those books blessed and, dare I say, even enlighted and refreshed.
We do all have a Holy Spirit and He is really working in all who are His. So, I really don’t need a SGM pastor of SGM elitist to tell me what I should and shouldn’t be reading. And I find it offensive when one of the above starts condescending another supposed brother or sister in the Lord who may actually be attempting to hear from the Lord and write what he hears down in book form. Maybe it’s not 100% truth. Maybe there’s error in there, hither and yon. But, maybe there’s a nugget of truth in there that may be the exact thing I need to hear and that will help in my walk to draw closer to Him.
In reference to Andrew Murry who has been mentioned above by a SGMer. I find that interesting. In the SGM church I was part of, there was only EVER one Andrew Murray book in the bookstore. Humility. When CJ came up with his lack-luster book on humility, it sat right beside Murray’s book. No comparison. Mr Murray has written over 200 books and only one of them earned the distinction of being SGM approved. Very sad.
Kindred-
Thanks-
I agree that we need to be Bereans. Any teacher or pastor with an ounce of humility will tell you themselves, to double check what they teach and weigh it against scripture.
In SGM land, you are told how great their teaching is and how sound their doctrine is and how you should never do anything but obey them (even if they are wrong). They set up believers to be dependent on them (their pastors and Apostles) to teach and discern for you instead of learning to discern and be dependent on the Holy Spirit and your God given gifting to learn and discern. They claim maturity-but in reality they are creating immaturity among the body.
I don’t want to discredit the value of preaching, teaching, and of Christian authors (or blogs for that matter)-but they are to encourage us in our faith-not live it for us (as if that could really be done).
Anyway–I’ll quit my rambling….
peace-mm
Correction on the link I gave above:
http://www.americanthinker.com.....e_mea.html
this one should work right.
It’s an insightful article, concentrating on a certain PERSON in politics. I felt that it was applicable to this discussion because in one’s pursuit of the TRUTH, an awareness of the motives of those giving out “wisdom” should be considered. Just because something looks and sounds like it “truth” doesn’t mean it is, and those who would mislead will present *some truth* so as to make others think that all that they espouse is truth.
If a PERSON has a tendency to want their own way no matter what and in the course of time is continually deceptive on who they are, wisdom dictates to have nothing to do with them. People who pretend to be someone else to get what they want are manipulative and are usually found out sooner or later. And those who have believed them will feel duped.
Another quote from the article:
“when someone who is a chronic liar speaks the truth, it is not necessarily a sign of improvement, but a calculated attempt — by one who has mastered the art [of] deceit — to manipulate the truth for his or her own purposes. This act, which on its face may look like a valiant attempt at reformation, denotes instead a singularly pernicious kind of wickedness.”
Develop your own relationship with the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL truth. We don’t have to have years of scholarship and be able to read Greek and Hebrew to know God’s Truth. ***I am not saying that scholarship and proficiency in Greek and Hebrew are not worthy to pursue.*** However, we must be able to discern the Voice of the HOLY SPIRIT among all the others.
He will speak to our hearts, He will not lead us astray if we diligently seek Him. His still small voice has been speaking to since our first inklings that something was wrong in pdi/sgm. He won’t stop now. He loves His own.
Ellie,
Your words and quotes (above) are like a huge splash of water —like when you wake up in the morning and the cold water brings you into the ‘reality’ of the beginning of a new day…….We so must define truth…and be alert and sober and sound the alarm when there is deception..a psalmist states that “all of the sum of Gods Words are Truth”….but we must read, meditate, study,digest, love …His Truth…His Word. So we can come to know Him, His Voice ,and pay attention to His leadings, ‘checks’, DISCERNMENT.—
Seems like there is much discernment alarmingly absent from SGM leaders and congregants ( I was one too—believed most of what /how pastors were leading and teaching even when I had a “check” from Holy Spirit)—What is so difficult to comprehend is how SGM leaders (and members) continue to not only not discern deceptive man-made doctrines and how they have added on to the scriptures to create their own “Biblical culture”— but to knowingly disregard, ignore and even sweep aside the documented cases of abusive counsel, especially in regards to women and children (all under the heading of “submission” ). Who chooses to ignore and WHITEWASH this??? Perhaps those who bite into the CJMahaneyism :”God wants pastoring to be the happiest calling on earth. You can’t be a happy pastor apart from a humble congregation………it would be wise to ask yourselves— ‘am I a joy to pastor?’”.—-Focus on the pastor and making his calling a joy????…What??? Where is the Gospel in that proclomation? While ignoring control and twisting of scripture and looking the other way when women and children are being abusively counseled?—Where is the Gospel in that behavior and action???? ( “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the Gospel of Christ” Galatians 1:7) Jesus’ command: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22: 37- 40.—
The Truth is, as Christians we do: “Dwell (live in) the shelter of the Most High and rest in the shadow of the Almighty. We can say ‘Lord, YOU are our refuge and our fortress,our God in Whom we trust.” (PS 91:1-2). We can seek and know and follow after Gods Truth and strengthen discernment…and rejoice with the apostle Peter that “we WERE continually straying like sheep BUT NOW we have returned to THE SHEPHERD AND GUARDIAN OF OUR SOULS.” (Jesus ) IPeter 2:25.— Seeking and walking to bring joy to our Savior Redeemer….for HE is the way, the Truth and the life.
John Galt,
I found your comment ironic. The pastor at my sgm church also recently spoke on recreation (and talked a lot about sports.) We must be talking about two different churches, since the pastor at my church wouldn’t be confused with someone who has a basketball idol, or even particularly cares for basketball. I just enjoy the idea that sgm is full of athletes.
Just as an aside, my church’s bookstore carries (and the pastors often quote) Bruce, Fee and Metzger. I’m a fan of Fee. He’s the man.
I’m not sure what books authored by those men are currently in our bookstore…I’d have to swing by and look…its a fairly small inventory and often it will carry a few commentaries on whatever book of the Bible we are studying at a given time, and then replace them as we conclude and move on to the next book. So, for instance, when Acts is being preached some of Gordon Fee’s stuff will be in the bookstore, though there might not be any of them right now. I know Fee and Bruce are certainly more popular then Metzger though he has been quoted at times. Hope that’s helpful.
Speaking of books, has anyone here read “Chosen But Free” by Norman Geisler? A friend recommended it as I was sharing some of the wrestling I’ve been going through (I’ve been is SGM for many years). Thanks.
SueBee-
I read that book years ago-interesting read…I think it was one of the first books that made me consider the fact, that solid Christians can often times have very different or nuanced views of the same topic (Predestination and free will in this book’s case). I found him to be thoughtful and challenging on the topic.
Keep wrestling….there’s a long tradition of wrestling with God-Jacob and Jeremiah comes to mind.
Peace to you-mm
No me and Lawrence aren’t the same person. (My example was hypothetical btw, I am not aware of any commentaries on Acts by Fee either)…and I can’t speak for SGM on anything, but I would imagine most people in SGM would think the same thing about Fee that they do about any brilliant Arminian. Which would be, lets learn what we can from him despite the fact that we disagree with him on a big issue.
Bruce’s commentary on Ephesians and Colossians was very helpful to me, and was in our bookstore at one point. Not sure if it still is, probably not most of the commentaries in our bookstore now are on Hebrews (what they say about Hebrews 13:17 is fascinating, by the way.)
. Obviously I kid because I love.
I would agree with Joey’s perspective on learning from Fee. After all, many people within SGM are huge fans of scumbag cessationists like MacArthur, Mohler, Dever etc., and we sing songs written by heretic arminians like Wesley. ….
…curious about which books were in our bookstore by Fee,Metzger and Pink? Bruce, F.F. New Testament Documentary , Fee, Gordon God’s Empowering Presence
Our bookstore does not have the space that the large mall stores have to carry every author available, so I did some investigating and found quite a diverse list (Calvanists, Arminians, Pre,Post,Mid, Pan Tribs, Cessasionists and Charismatics).
It changes depending on whether we are going through the book of Acts or James, so there will be commentaries by other authors on those books.
Here is a list of authors curently in our store.
Alcorn, Randy
Anderson, David
Anyabwile, Thabiti
Archer, Gleason
Begg, Alistair
Bennett, Arthur
Best, Harold
Blackaby, Henry
Blomberg, Craig
Boice, James
Bond, Douglas
Brauns, Chris
Bridges, Jerry
Bruce, F.F. New Testament Documentary
Bunyan, John
Burkett, Larry
Burroughs, Jeremiah
Cahill, Mark
Cameron, Kirk
Carson, D.A.
Chambers, Oswald
Chapell, Bryan
Coleman, Robert
DeMoss, Nancy
Dever, Mark
Dillow, Linda
Driscoll, Mark
Edwards, Jonathan
Edwards, James
Elliot, Elizabeth
Erickson, Millard
Farrar, Mary
Fee, Gordon God’s Empowering Presence
Ferguson, Sinclair
Fitzpatrick, Elyse
Forter, Pam
Frame, John
Frying, Robert
Gabriel, Mark
Graustein, Karl
Grudem, Wayne
Gundersun, Dennis
Harris, Alex&Brett
Harris, Joshua
Harris, Laird
Harvey, Dave
Hayford, Jack
Heald, Cynthia
Henry, Matthew
Hoekema, Anthony
Howard Day
Hughes, Barbara
Hughes, Kent
Hummel, Charles
Hunt, Susan
Kassian, Mary
Kauflin, Bob
Keller, Timothy
Kennedy, D. James
Knowles, V.
Lane, Tim
Lewis, CS
Lewis,Hendricks
Lloyd-Jones, Martin
Lloyd-Jones, Sally
Lungaard, Kris
MacArthur, John
MacDonald, Gordon
Mackenzie, Carine
Mahaney, CJ
Marshall, Walter
McCulley, Carolyn
McDowell, Josh
Mohler, Albert
Morris, Carson
Morris, Leon
Muller, G.
Murray, Andrew (Humility and 4 other titles)
Murray, Iain
Newman, Randy
Ortland, Rayond
Owen, John
Packer, J.I.
Peace, Martha
Peterson,David
Phillips, Richard
Pink, A.W.
Piper, John
Plowman, Ginger
Powilson, David
Prentiss, Elizabeth
Priolo, Lou
Prior, David
Ramsey, Dave
Ricucci, Gary&Betsy
Robert D. Jones
Ross, Allen
Ryle, J.C.
Sande, Ken
Scheer, Greg
Seifert, Lewis
Sibbes, Richard
Sprague, William
Sproul, R.C.
Spurgeon, Charles
Storms, Sam
Stott, John
Strauch, Alexander
Strobel, Lee
Tada, Joni /Estes, Steven
Thomas, Gary
Tozer, A.W.
Tripp, Paul
Vincent, Milton
Virgo, Terry
Ware, Bruce
Watson, Thomas
Welch, Ed
Wheeler, Evelyn
Whitney, Donald
Wilkins, Steve
Wilson, Douglas
Wilson, Nancy
Winslow, Octavius
Wise, Jessie
Younts, John
There are some big names missing, which I am sure many of you will pick out quickly, not finding your favorite author (Metzger, George Macdonald etc), but there are no “name it claim it” prosperity authors or other authors with off the wall heretical theologies (I know the desire to immediately retort ” but what about CJ MAHANEY and JOSHUA HARRIS !?”, but hold that prejudice back)
Although my point was a good one
, perhaps not in the way you interpertated (forgive my spelling.) With apologies to your education and (assumed by myself) knowledge of the original text of Scripture, I simply do not have time to learn Greek or Hebrew, as much as I would love too one day (my dad, ironically enough, tried to get me to learn greek in High school.) I assume most people are like me. That’s all I meant by who would buy them? Maybe some would, I don’t know.
Secondly, yes, they would be thrilled. They love it when guys from RTS (which is just down the road) decide to come to Metro while they’re at RTS. They love the conversations/debates/arguments (whatever you want to call them) that they’re able to have with those guys.
Thirdly, I hesitate to answer the question about CJ’s deplorable mishandling of scripture because, 1) obviously we would have a fundamental disagreement about the premise
and 2) I’m not even really sure what your point is. If you’re making a larger point regarding whether there’s room for disagreement among the pastors of different churches, or among the pastors and laity, then yes. Obviously there’s not huge, monumental disagreements (otherwise why would the pastors have their churches in SGM, or why would laity go to a sovereign grace church?) For instance, you had irreconciliable theological differences. So, I’m assuming, you left. Which is as it should be. Those who stay will probably not have huge differences, and will probably not address CJ’s “deplorable mishandling of Scripture” because, obviously, they don’t think he handles scripture deplorably.
But is there room for disagreement? Absolutely. Just as my local church, the pastors disagree on (to randomly pick some topics) eschatology, opinions on Un/Limited Atonement and the role of sports in the church
. And since they disagree on topics, they welcome debate about said topics. I’ve had many such discussions with them 
.
Sorry for the novel. Kudos to you if you actually made it all the way through.
Apparently Lawrence types faster.
apparently Joey types better. And more convincingly.
And allow me to take Joey’s thoughts to their logical conclusions (feel free to lambast my presumptions on your thoughts, Joey.) Despite your pastors efforts, you disagree with him enough to call CJ (a relatively popular and somewhat respected author, speaker, pastor whatever) deporable. But no one here would call your, or anyone else’s, disagreement with him neccessarily proud.
So, then, why should we assume that his disagreement with you, or anyone else’s, points to pride, points to him not being in a “humble” state? Maybe your pastor is proud. Maybe your proud. Maybe he’s humble. Maybe your humble. I don’t know either of you, most people on this blog probably don’t either. Therefore we can’t judge one way or another, or we shouldn’t. But the fact that both of you have studied scripture and pursued God enough to be convinced of the truth, and have stuck to those convictions, is admirable, and does not neccessarily point to pride in either of you.
I would be really fascinated to know what denomination/movement/group of churches actually carries books on biblical linguistics, hermeneutics, Greek and Hebrew grammar, exegesis, etc and whatnot, everything that you’ve been mentioning, in their bookstore. I’ve been to quite a few types of churches, and never seen a wide collection of those books in any of them.
The point being, of course, that the pastors of our church would be thrilled with anyone in the church who pursued that (bilical linguistics, hermeneutics, learning Greek and Hebrew) on their own (as some have.) That doesn’t mean, though, that we have room in our bookstore to carry such a wide range of books. Or that anyone would buy them if they did.
I think that if someone in SGM thought that CJ, or their pastor, deplorably mishandled Scripture they would probably just leave. Now, they may disagree on a point here or there, but generally, the reason people are in SGM is because they don’t think that CJ or their pastor, or Purswell or Harvey deplorably mishandles Scripture. In fact they are attracted to SGM because they like the way these men handle Scripture.
But lets say there was a strong disagreement on an issue. A pastor should be approachable and willing to discuss that sort of thing…to a point. But if he has honestly studied the word and done his research on a topic and come to a conclusion…he is not required to change his stance any more than you are. It is not necessarily pride for a leader to say “Lets agree to disagree.” For example, there is a reason why SGM doesn’t have very many Arminians as members. Its not because its leaders are too proud to be convinced by Arminian arguments…its because after careful study of the word they simply don’t believe Arminian theology is an accurate representation of Scripture. As such, what they teach and preach isn’t going to appeal to Arminians.
The comment about “maybe you will be happier somewhere else” could be necessary in some cases. This doesn’t mean that a pastor can never change his mind regarding theology or practice. It just means that if it doesn’t happen, its up to the member to decide if the issue in question is a hill to die on or not. The pastor is going to keep leading based on his conscience and what he believes Scripture teaches. You don’t have to follow.
The same applies CJ, Piper, McArthur, or whoever. People are either going to agree or not, but its not up to them to decide whether you follow or not…thats up to you. If you think that he handles Scripture deplorably…SGM isn’t for you. No big deal.
Jim, almost bought “Steve Brown’s “A Scandalous Freedom” until I went to his website and saw him holding hands in agreement with Donald Miller “Blue Like Jazz” (emergent church) and William Paul Young, author of “The Shack.” That makes one wonder how liberal Steve Brown’s theology has come from his days at Reformed Theological Seminary.
I’m going to listen to his “Homosexuals and the Church” podcast before I make any purchases.
http://stevebrownetc.com/podca.....he-church/
Doing further research on Miller I came upon this site, putting Miller and Brian McClaren together (and you guys are worried about bad theology from SGM?)
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes.....ue-dnc.htm
One quote from this page stood out about Miller
Miller backs up his dismissal of doctrine and theology (an earmark of all emerging leaders) when he says he has “climb[ed] outside my pat answers [doctrine],” and says “Too much of our time is spent trying to chart God on a grid” (p. 205). That might sound acceptable to many people today in our feel-good, redefining society, but it is the “pat answers” and the “chart” that the Bible has given us so we can understand God, life, and salvation. Miller reiterates his rejection of immovable doctrine by concluding:
Although I love and respect CJ, and make no apologies about that, I disagree with him sometimes. But may I be so bold as to suggest that disagreement with you, or with CJ or Piper or anyone else for that matter, doesn’t have to be because of “stubborness, apathy, stupidity, close mindedness, brainwashing, peer pressure, uneducated, leadership’s dominating influence, church culture”?
In other words, you can’t complain that we think that Chucky can do no wrong and then give the possible reasons as to why your pastor would disagree with you as “stubborness, apathy, stupidity, close mindedness, brainwashing, peer pressure, uneducated, leadership’s dominating influence, church culture etc.”
Having said that, I agree with you, fwiw. I’m sure your pastor could have been more open and humble in his communication with you. Can’t we all?
GM-holding hands in agreement? You really can’t help yourself, can you?
Well, if we are going to transition from the general question of disagreements with pastors to the specific issue of Heb 13:17, then we can do that.
I am sure you know more about that particular verse then me. I certainly have never read an entire book on it. But I do know that Martin Luther, among others from his time period, would role over in their graves if someone suggested you needed to learn the langauge Scripture was originally written in to understand it. I am very grateful to the men who have dedicated their lives to making sure we have Scripture in my language, and many, many, many others. I am not saying that knowing Greek is unimportant…but I don’t think its necessary to understand the Bible. And so when a verse say obey and submit to your leaders, without complaining, and mentions that they are going to give an account for the way they lead those under them…I assume the men who have studied their guts out to understand the original greek and represent it authentically in English have got it right. That in the Greek it really does mean submit and obey without complaining.
Now, we know from elsewhere in Scripture that this verse doesn’t mean to obey them if they lead you into sin, or if they are preaching heresy, or if they are abusive etc. If you think they are doing those things then they disqualify themselves from leadership and you shouldn’t obey them or submit to them.
It also doesn’t mean that submit and obey in the same way a child submits and obeys…and it doesn’t mean submit like a brainwashable ninny. We are to be Bereans.
It does mean, let your leaders lead. Not everyone is a Chief…some of us are braves. Our leaders have been called lead. So don’t be divisive, be willing to be led. Even if you are wiser doctrinally. I’ve coached plenty of players who are better basketball players than me. That doesn’t mean I should let them coach. If they are smart players, then as a smart coach I am going to listen to their thoughts and input, and at times it will change my gameplan…but its my responsibilty to make the decision, and if it goes against what my smart player suggested, its his responsibility to say “Ok, I disagree but lets win anyways.”
Anyways, I could go on about that verse for awhile, because even though I haven’t read a book on it…it is clear to me what it says, and clear to me what it does not say…and its clear because of the structure of the verse, the chapter, and what I already know from elsewhere in Scripture.
I think the bigger issue is not this verse. It is clear from your writing (the suggestion that open debate with a preacher, as he is preaching…the suggestion that SGM pastors and leaders are too proud to change position despite well known and obvious evidence to the contrary…they have changed positions on reformed vs arminian, they opened their doors to the third wave perspective on the baptism in the spirit to name the most popular…the comparison of CJ with the pope) that you have fundamental differences regarding Scripture that would never have been able to bridged enough to have meaningful fellowship within SGM. Like I said before, that’s fine.
Lawrence
October 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
They love it when guys from RTS (which is just down the road) decide to come to Metro while they’re at RTS. They love the conversations/debates/arguments (whatever you want to call them) that they’re able to have with those guys.
I have heard our pastors correct themselves a week later, from the pulpit, after being corrected by RTS students and graduates, which goes to show that not all SGM churches are cookie cutter clones. Just like not all Roman Catholic Priests are pedophiles.
Good points, Joey…don’t get me started on the Third Wave perspective. O wait, I’m supposed to agree with everything Jeff Purswell and CJ believe. Never mind, of course the Third Wave perspective is correct
. (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
I would add, ______, that I don’t know off the top of my head CJ’s teaching about Hebrews 13:17, and thus cannot defend it. But in the same way that we cannot create a heirarchy of Christians based on positions of leadership/gifting, we also cannot create a heirarchy of Christians based on understanding of the language of the original text. Obviously, that statement can be twisted, and I’m not saying that pastors in SGM shouldn’t know what Paul actually said. I guess my only point is that CJ has probably spent as much time studying, and coming to his conclusions about that verse as you have ______. You have come to different conclusions. Maybe it’s not a character issue. Maybe it’s just a disagreement. Which, as Joey said, is fine, and normal. People don’t always agree.
Lawrence said, “I guess my only point is that CJ has probably spent as much time studying, and coming to his conclusions about that verse as you have ______. You have come to different conclusions. Maybe it’s not a character issue. Maybe it’s just a disagreement. Which, as Joey said, is fine, and normal. People don’t always agree.”
The frightening thing from my perspective, Lawrence, is that for years now, CJ, the apostolic team and pastors beneath them have made doctrine from a verse, present the “new” doctrine to their congregations and then expect that everyone in the congregations will not only agree with the “new” doctrine but will apply it to their daily lives. This has resulted in much legalism, control and yes even manipulation. There really is no room for disagreement for to disagree will lead you right out the door or will keep you from being able to serve in ways that you may desire to serve or be gifted to serve.
Also it has appeared that SGM prides itself on having “sound” doctrine and yet the doctrines are routinely changed. What is so sound about that?
Fred,
Hi. I’m sorry, maybe I’m being unusually dense today, but I guess I’m not understanding your first paragraph. They “make doctrine from a verse”? Meaning they take verses out of context? I guess I don’t want to respond without really knowing what you’re saying. As far as legalism and manipulation and whatnot, I guess we’re going to have to agree to disagree
. I don’t want to argue with your perspective. Cause heck you may be right.
As for your second paragraph, I don’t have a great reponse. I get people saying that the leaders of SGM are arrogant and inflexible, never willing to change their minds about anything etc. etc., and then there’s people like yourself who think they change doctrine with every shift in the winds. I guess everyone sees things differently.
Joey, Lawrence,
I hope you don’t mind if I jump in. I recently discovered this site and posted over at My Story. I haven’t sat under CJ or other SGM (PDI) teaching since 1993, but I’m very familiar with other similar teaching and heard LT, CJ, and others for 5 years in the early years.
In my experience, most Bible teachers in general, particularly a SGM-type church, are routinely unknowingly abusing the scriptures because of a lack of or disregard for sound exegesis and hermeneutics. All the sincerity, experience pastoring, God-ordained-leadership, and godly character in the world doesn’t mean a hill of beans if a teacher does not use proven exegetical and hermeneutical tools to interpret scripture. One problem is, if one really goes where the evidence leads with these tools/practices, sometimes–not all the time–one will come to a conclusion that is contrary to traditional evangelical belief. (An example would be concluding that tithing is entirely optional and should not be taught as a matter of obedience).
When this happens, most traditional teachers (if they have in fact gotten this far, which they don’t often do), will reject the non-traditional teaching, or the teaching that goes against their denomination. Not especially because they are too proud, naturally stubborn, etc. (although I’m sure that happens sometimes), but because it’s too painful to consider the conclusion that is outside of the box. It rocks their world too much. In other words, they are human. We humans love the security of tradition and hate the insecurity of controversial conclusions. On the calvinism vs arminianism choice, either one is within the evangelical camp, so the change is not that radical.
In my experience, there are many instances where scholars have “studied their guts out to get it right,” and have ended up getting it wrong, not because they are bad people but because they weren’t working with all the facts. Luther, e.g., didn’t have the oldest NT manuscripts at his disposal because they weren’t discovered until much later. Of course, because there is the human element, oftentimes there is also translation or interpretation bias going on.
I wish it was easy to agree to disagree on a host of issues, but in most SGM or similar churches there are so many issues that have become major doctrines, it really isn’t possible to be free to disagree. The pressure to conform is too strong.
I believe the irony of this phenomenon is that so much of scripture is misrepresented because of this faulty study and interpretation. “Obey” would be better rendered “be persuaded,” “leaders” are not pastors because there is no NT equivalent of our modern pastors, and I could list a whole slew of others. Assuming what you and I say is right (based on many scholars like Gordon Fee, N.T. Wright, etc), if SGM, the church, or anyone are not accepting a more accurate rendering and interpretation of various verses and passages in question, who are the ones who are really honoring the Bible? My point would be that there’s a danger of honoring tradition over and above the original meaning of scripture. Ouch!
Gotta Migraine-
If you really want to play the whole “guilty by association” game-then how do you explain SG’s endorsement and CJ’s relationship to Mark Driscoll. Driscoll’s Acts 29 network has had Don Miller at their national church planting conference to teach.
So are CJ and DonMiller and Steve Brown all holding hands?
By your logic-I could safely assume that Brian MacClaren and CJ have the same theology because Don Miller, who was endorsed by Mark Driscoll, who is endorsed by CJ was once seen with Brian MacClaren.
Have fun playing theological pin the tail to the donkey!
What about the role of the Holy Spirit in interpreting Scripture? One may be using all of the exegetical and hermeneutical tools in the tool box, all of the facts, linguistics, the culture, the audience, the intent, the context, the limitations, the applications, etc. but without the truth, wisdom, discernment, power, instruction, correction, revelation, illumination etc. of the Holy Spirit, man through intellectualism will fail (and certainly has failed) miserably at interpreting Scripture.
1Corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Matthew 11:25 “At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.”
John 16:13 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.”
Michael,
, un/limited atonement, apologetics (just to name a few), disagreement is unavoidable, and actually quite obvious and out in the open. A bible study that me and some of my friends in the church have been doing is consistently picking topics/passages of scriptures that we disagree on and talking about it. I don’t sense a “pressure to conform” in any of them. They make their opinions known quite strongly.
“I wish it was easy to agree to disagree on a host of issues, but in most SGM or similar churches there are so many issues that have become major doctrines, it really isn’t possible to be free to disagree. The pressure to conform is too strong.”
I think it depends on where you’re coming from. If you belong to a church or a movement of churches, you should probably agree with them on major issues, or else there’s not too much of a reason to be a part of that church. Liberal theologians probably aren’t going to find many reasons to join a SGM church. Adhering to a subsequent view on the baptism of the Holy Spirit or a Third Wave view is equally acceptable, but if you’re a cessationists you might want to find a different church, you know (random example)? However, on ‘many issues’, for instance dating/courting, eschatology, public/private/homeschooling, the role of sports
“I believe the irony of this phenomenon is that so much of scripture is misrepresented because of this faulty study and interpretation. “Obey” would be better rendered “be persuaded,” “leaders” are not pastors because there is no NT equivalent of our modern pastors, and I could list a whole slew of others. Assuming what you and I say is right (based on many scholars like Gordon Fee, N.T. Wright, etc), if SGM, the church, or anyone are not accepting a more accurate rendering and interpretation of various verses and passages in question, who are the ones who are really honoring the Bible? My point would be that there’s a danger of honoring tradition over and above the original meaning of scripture. Ouch!” – Michael
Just out of curiosity I checked bible gateway to see how all the different English translations rendered Heb 13:17. I stopped after checking around 10 or 12 because it was clear that they all were saying the exact same thing. Obey and submit. Its rare that you could find a verse in Scripture as uniformly interpeted as Heb 13:17. ESV, NASB, KJV, NIV, etc…they all agree on how to render Heb 13:17. Not on the exact strucure of the sentence but on the main words. They all read remarkably similarly and none of them say “be persuaded.” How many hundreds of Greek scholars are involved in developing those translations do you think? I think its pretty safe to say that what the author of Hebrews was saying in the Greek is clear.
Now, like I said, just because we have a high degree of confidence that “obey” and “submit” are the proper words to use doesn’t mean that those words entail the kind of “obey” and “submit” that would undermine what is clearly taught in the rest of Scripture about being Bereans, not following anyone into sin. It just means that the author of Hebrews, who indicates in this same chapter that he doesn’t know if he will be involved in leading these folks himself anymore…wants them to still follow their leaders. You don’t have to call them pastors if you don’t want to…call them overseers, elders, whatever…but the fact that churches need leaders is all over the NT. The author of Hebrews is telling those he is writing to be easliy led. Make your leaders job easy, it works better that way. No matter how you want to translate particular words in that verse and the verses around it…to deny that the author is encouraging submission isn’t some great avoidance of tradition in favor of a better interpretation of Scripture. Its an elaborate attempt to explain away what is clearly being said.
The TNIV (what a stellar example of a translation that’s hermenutically sound eh?) does avoid saying obey. It says “Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority…” But even then the idea of submission to authority is very much spelled out.
. . . and Brian McLaren was involved with the College Park fellowship of Covenant Life then PDI.
BTW, I personally prefer Brian McLaren and the emerging/emergent church. I visited his church here in MoCo and liked it very much, but wanted to attend a church closer to home.
ONCE AGAIN,
My question in all of this is this: “WHAT DID BELIEVERS DO BEFORE ALL THESE AUTHORS AND THEIR BOOKS APPEARED ON THE SCENE?
Oh My Goodness….they had to read the word of GOD…they had to depend on the HOLY SPIRIT to guide and teach them…They had to TRUST GOD to lead them on the path HE had chosen for their lives (not the ones men feel they have to force on them).
PEOPLE DID WE CHECK OUR BRAINS AT THE DOOR WHEN MODERN TECHNOLOGY CAME IN? We have the same incredible opportunity the early saints had to implore the Holy Spirit to teach us the ways of the LORD. If I remember correctly, it was when MEN got in the way, deciding what was right or wrong, when men started following men that the confusion, schisms, and denominations arose.
Do we need “man” in our lives? I think so: to fellowship with, to bear our grief with, to rejoice with, to encourage us and to hold us accountable to the word of GOD…Do we need “man” to tell us what the word of God means for us (because we are too ignorant to understand) ? I THINK NOT…. Jesus said HE would send a comforter, not more men to show us the way!
My greatest memories of “joy with & in the LORD”, is when HE has revealed that special thing I need to change my life….Oh the happiness that comes realizing, again and again, that HE loves me enough to personally spend that precious time with me. NO MAN, his book or interpretation of the scripture can match that rapturous moment!
Why should we “read” about the book, when the author HIMSELF wants to tell us about it!
______, please don’t tell me I need to know and understand the greek & and; hebrew. I believe the author knows those languages far better than anyone (due to the fact that HE is the one who created them) and is more than capable to explain anything to me I need to know……
Jim October 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm GM-holding hands in agreement? You really can’t help yourself, can you?
Musicman “Gotta Migraine-
If you really want to play the whole “guilty by association” game-then how do you explain SG’s endorsement and CJ’s relationship to Mark Driscoll. Driscoll’s Acts 29 network has had Don Miller at their national church planting conference to teach.”
I have heard enough about McClaren to see that his teaching is extra-Biblical (Driscoll agreed and bolted from the Emergent Movement)
One of a few MCClaren quotes
Buddhist, Hindu, and Jewish disciples don’t have to adhere to Christianity: “I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equal making adherence to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts. This will be hard, you say, and I agree. But frankly, it’s not at all easy to be a follower of Jesus in many “Christian” religious context, either.”(McLaren, Brian, A Generous Orthodoxy, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2004, p. 296, italics in the original.)
And
Is Christianity true? a little: “Sit down here next to me in this little restaurant and ask me if Christianity (my version of it, yours, the Pope’s, whoever’s) is orthodox, meaning true, and here’s my honest answer: a little, but not yet. Assuming by Christianity you mean the Christian understanding of the world and God, Christian opinions on soul, text, and culture… I’d have to say that we probably have a couple of things right, but a lot of things wrong, and even more sprints before is unseen and unimagined.”
As far as Blue Like Jazz – I haven’t read it, but what I’ve read on the internet about it makes me wonder about Miller’s unorthodox view of Christianity
“When my friend Paul and I lived in the woods, we lived with hippies. Well, sort of hippies. They certainly smoked a lot of pot. They drank beer a lot. And man did they love each other, sometimes too much perhaps, too physically, you know, but nevertheless they loved; they accepted and cherished everybody, even the ones who judged them because they were hippies. It was odd living with hippies at first, but I enjoyed it after a while.”
“We would sit around and talk about literature and each other, and I couldn’t tell the difference between the books they were talking about and their lives, they were just that cool. I liked them very much because they were interested in me. When I was with hippies, I did not feel judged, I felt loved. To them I was an endless well of stories and perspectives and grand literary views. It felt so wonderful to be in their presence, like I was special.”Blue Like Jazz, 207.
“I have never experienced a group of people who loved each other more than my hippies in the woods. All of them are tucked so neatly into my memory now, and I recall our evenings at camp or in the meadow or in the caves in my mind like a favorite film. I pull them out when I need to be reminded about goodness, about purity and kindness.” 208
Will have to do more research to see why Driscoll would want to be associated with someone with theology that out in left field.
Noting personal Jim, but if you recommend a book, why should I immediately say “It must be good, therefore, I will go buy it?” I want to do some homework first – Something you should hope that we all do before grabbing ahold of any new wind of doctrine that comes along.
GM-You should not buy a book because I recommend it. You can click on the podcast links and hear Brown speak for himself. I made it easy for you, and it’s free. You’re welcome.
What bugs me is your faulty reasoning, and your very quick to judge attitude. I haven’t seen the pic of Brown ‘holding hands in agreement” with Miller and Young, because you didn’t provide a link.
Steve is a broadcaster who interviews people of all stripes. Did someone snap a pic of him with people you (and I) disagree with, or has he made a written or verbal endorsement? They are not quite the same thing.
I hug people I disagree with, and couldn’t care less if someone snaps a pic.
You should try it.
GM-
You are such an expert on books and authors you haven’t read….how’d you get so good at it?
GM-
Funny that you disregard many of the posters on this site, but are so willing to believe others on the internet, when it comes to pastor’s and authors outside of SGM.
Why is that?
I did do some more checking on the greek of Hebrews 13:17. As far as I know, it confirms what it says in english
. I emailed someone that I have contact with (he doesn’t go to SGM, he doesn’t respect our views on the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit) but he is fluent in greek and actually teaches on the subject. He said it’s the most common Greek word used to mean obey (generally, not just biblically.) He said that etymology is not meaning in any language. We wouldn’t say that a butterfly is made out of butter, right? And the other verb in the verse means to yield, which goes along with the point of the verse. Taken in the context of the rest of the verse (these leaders giving an account of their flocks souls) it becomes fairly clear that the verse is talking about obediance. At least according to almost every Greek scholar that I know 
. He also laughed at the suggestion that Hebrews doesn’t talk about pastors. He doesn’t see the point. He says Hebrews does talk, often, about the office of a leader in the local church, whether its translated pastor, overseer, elder, leader, etc. Whatever english word we use to mean what Hebrews meant (the leader of the church) is beside the point. Whatever their title, they will give an account before God.
What’s my point? I guess my point is maybe you should be careful when you call someone’s handling of scripture “deplorable” or “laughable.” Very many smart, smart men who have spent their lives learning Greek, or even if they haven’t, have at least spent their lives studying the Bible (including, as Joey pointed out, every Greek scholar who has translated the Bible) come closer to agreeing with CJ with you. It doesn’t make them right. But it also doesn’t make them childish or deporable.
Joey,
I see your point, but here are a few considerations.
>>> Just out of curiosity I checked bible gateway to see how all the different English translations rendered Heb 13:17. I stopped after checking around 10 or 12 because it was clear that they all were saying the exact same thing. Obey and submit. – Joey
I’m not as familiar with this particular verse, but I do know that just because all versions translate a word similarly, does not mean it is set in stone. The term “flesh” was mistranslated for years and years until the NIV and others corrected it to be “sinful nature.” The word “fornication” was mistranslated until the NIV improved it (although it is still highly misunderstood) to “sexual immorality.” The word translated “world” is still today a misguided translation in many passages and many scholars argue oikenome (sp?) should be rendered “the known region” or “Roman empire.” When I lived in Africa, I learned first-hand how there are just some terms where there is no direct translation. I also learned that tradition often trumps good quality exegetical scholarship.
I looked up the term in question in Heb. 13:17 in Kittel’s Greek dictionary and the Greek word rendered “obey” is a form of the word peitho, “to convince or persuade.” There is another term for obey in Greek that is not used here. Yet, for the sake of argument, even if it says “obey your leaders,” the question remains, are some church leaders abusing this verse by teaching a strict almost-blind obedience? Does the original meaning really refer to institutional church leaders having authority over people’s lives to dictate church/care group involvement, tithing, what doctrines are major and which to believe, disciplinary measures, how to raise children, how to view biblical authority, and whether it’s OK or not for a hormone-driven teenager to masturbate? If you look at the whole context of the Bible, I think not, especially since there are no NT church models for an authority-pastor-driven gatherings of believers.
Finally, where do we get the notion that everything an author wrote to a first century gathering of Christians are binding commandments to all believers throughout history? This is a question I wasn’t willing to ask until years after I got out of PDI and other similar churches. I know this question opens up a can of worms, but it must be asked.
Mimi,
I would respectfully disagree with the notion that one doesn’t need to understand the Greek and Hebrew languages. Sure, you don’t need to know them personally, but without access to others who know the languages, we wouldn’t have a Bible in English to read. Without a knowledge of history and culture, we will misinterpret much of what is stated.
>>>______, please don’t tell me I need to know and understand the greek & and; hebrew. I believe the author knows those languages far better than anyone (due to the fact that HE is the one who created them) and is more than capable to explain anything to me I need to know…… – Mimi
Are you saying, you can just rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret the scriptures for you and not study the original language and culture? I have nothing against asking God to help me understand scripture… in fact I think some of my misgivings about what I read in the Bible was God leading me to look at alternate interpretations that are more true to original language. The trouble I have is the attitude that original-language-and -culture knowledge is somehow unspiritual and unnecessary.
You say God created the original languages and can tell you what they mean better than anyone. But we still need someone to translate accurately into our language. And we still need to understand context or else we will misunderstand. Maybe God tells us what scripture means through studying the cultural milieu and original language. If God wanted us to bypass that practice, don’t you think that Biblical interpretation would become highly subjective? Who’s to say what interpretation is correct if everyone claims to have gotten the meaning from God himself?
The example I would give is an American going to an Africa culture and trying to understand an African tribe’s worldview. Without understanding how the tribe thinks, he or she misreads what they are saying. Someone asks the American, “Where do you sit?” and the American replies, “in a chair,” but the African really means “where do you live?” because the word “sit” implies domicile in the tribal worldview. The American who accepts things at face value and doesn’t look deeper ends up misunderstanding. God is not obligated to tell the American through the Spirit what the language means. He or she must humble themselves and learn.
I am listening to the podcasts and reading the book now (finally!). This material is challenging, infuriating, provocative, and a whole lot more. I am finding it valuable as I detoxify.
Recommending it,
Former SG Pastor
Thanks for the recommendation, FSGP. Think I’ll check out the book…
FSGP – Welcome back. I hope all went well!
I haven’t read the book but I love the title. In my experience Christian leaders tend to be afraid of freedom. As soon as the hear freedom they think licentiousness which shows why Christians have been so conditioned to concentrate more on not giving the flesh an opportunity in our freedom rather than living in the freedom we have in Christ.
In class a couple of weeks ago, one of the pastors reacted to my comments on freedom. He said that when teaching freedom and grace there needs to be a balance. (not the first I have heard this) Two questions to his comment. Are we then to teach equally the law and equally grace? Are we to teach equally bondage and equally freedom?
For me – I will always error on the side of grace and freedom!! The law is like a mirror, in it I can only see my sinful condition, when I look at grace, I see my righteousness and identity in Christ. When I see freedom I see no restraints to to be everything I can be in Him and the freedom to accomplish all that Jesus has for me, and bondage — well I am just not going there except to apply truth when needed which brings more freedom!!! We must stand firm (no fear) in our freedom that we never again subject ourselves to a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1
Glad you are still moving forward in the de-tox!!! Continuing to pray for you!!
Irv
Irv, Christians run screaming in fear when they hear about freedom. It’s so sad. How many times does the bible use the word “grace”? How about the word “freedom”? How many times does the bible use the word “liscentiousness”?
Yet it seems whenever a Christian hears the word freedom, they feel the need to “balance” it with a warning on liscentiousness. Does the bible need to do that? I don’t think so. I guess someone ought to have told God that He should have “balanced” it out in the bible, as well.
Irv,
WOW…..
For me – I will always error on the side of grace and freedom!! The law is like a mirror, in it I can only see my sinful condition, when I look at grace, I see my righteousness and identity in Christ. When I see freedom I see no restraints to to be everything I can be in Him and the freedom to accomplish all that Jesus has for me, and bondage — well I am just not going there except to apply truth when needed which brings more freedom!!! We must stand firm (no fear) in our freedom that we never again subject ourselves to a yoke of slavery. Gal 5:1
I PRAY TO BE HERE 100% ONE DAY SOON!
Bruised said, “The law is like a mirror, in it I can only see my sinful condition” Wow and awesome way to look at it! Thank you for sharing that.
For the record, from the NASB:
Grace: 122 times
Freedom: 8 times
Licentiousness: 1
And just for the record, Pastor: 1
Stunned,
Actually.. I was giving Irv the wow…. was his comment! lol
But truly is an awesome way to view it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gets my applause!
Bruised -
As my good Jewish friends say “from your lips to God heart”. I will pray with you to that end.
If you will indulge me and I know I am preaching to the choir I would like to make a comment to your statement:
“For a year now I have beat myself up thinking I’m just not a good submissive christian”
I have asked Christians through the years what is it to be a good Christian according to the scriptures. They come up with incredibly long lists of what they believe the scriptures teach to be a good Christian. Scriptures do not make any reference to being a “good Christian” but they do speak to Christians as being righteous.
When we said yes to Jesus there was an exchange made; my unrighteousness for His righteousness. The key to our life in Christ is righteousness. The only way to righteousness before God is 100% obedience to the law (every jot and tittle) to which Jesus fulfilled 100% which is impossible for man.
Trust in Christ for our salvation is an exchange; our unrighteousness is credited to Christ’s account and His righteousness is credited to us (our account). Credited is a accounting term which means everything was made right (everything balanced).
The application is this: we are now justified (we stand before God as though we never sinned just as Jesus never sinned) and now we are glorified (clothed in the glory of God as Adam was clothed in His glory in the garden prior to the fall).
What Adam was before the fall has been restored to all those who in Christ. By faith our condition which was unacceptable to God has been made acceptable through Christ. As we accepted Him by faith, we continue in Him by faith and the life we now live is Him living in us. And through us the glory of God (Jesus) is expressed to the world.
So Bruised you never have to strive to be a ‘good Christian’ – you are a righteous Christian — free from the law of sin and death. We no longer live at the cross (we were buried with Him – raised with Him – we are seated in the heavenlies), but we live with Him beyond the cross to enjoy the fullness of Christ and life in His kingdom.
So much for a quick comment!!
thank you Irv.
Why then: Am I so fearful of being lukewarm? This taunts at me daily……..
I want to rest in the fact that I’m covered by Grace and then drift back in to the law!!!!!!
still trying to find that resting place. I have lived out the OBEDIENCE WALK for over 4 years now… its gonna just take time!
Well said, Irv. So, the truth is that, under grace, when we look into the mirror, we see Jesus! Yee-ha!
Bruised, I am about to make a statement I know you won’t believe. I know I won’t be able to give you any proof of the rightness of this statement. (At least not to your satisfaction. And that’s not because you’re hard to please. I think you are the opposite of that, honestly.) I am sure I won’t even say it well and I am already wishing Canary or someone else will come in and “clean up” after me to make better sense of what I’m trying to say.
All that to say, bruised said, “Why then: Am I so fearful of being lukewarm? This taunts at me daily……..” Bruised, I think that if you were lukewarm and you thought of this scripture, then being worried about it would be the farthest thing from your mind. Actually, if you were lukewarm, you probably wouldn’t even be thinking about this verse ever. But if it did cross your path, you wouldn’t care about being lukewarm or not. I wonder if the conversation in your head would go something like this:
“Be ye not lukewarm.” Hmmm….I wonder what I’m going to eat for lunch.
I would take the fact that you are concerned about whether you are lukewarm or not as proof positive that you are NOT lukewarm. Besides, just from the little interaction we’ve had on here with you, I can say beyond a shadow of any doubt (in my mind), you my friend are NOT lukewarm.
Anyone else here want to chime in and assure her I am 100% correct. (As usual.
)
Bruised -
The ladies on Refuge are looking well after you and many are praying for you which assures that you will come to the place of rest (peace). As I was praying for you I felt to I encourage you to move from a mindset of an ‘obedience walk’ to a “faith walk”.
I would not assume that you do but many Christians consider obedience as ‘not sinning’. Jesus obeyed His Father’s wishes but it had nothing to do with sin but in the honor, worship and faith in His Father. He did what He saw His Father doing. Obedience is more about being who you are in Christ and being His expression.
As a new creation you have a new nature (divine), new mind (Christ’s) and a new spirit (perfect). Col 2:6 says as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in Him. You received Christ Jesus the Lord by faith so your walk is a faith walk.
Many years ago I was trying to help my wife (and myself) understand grace vs works because she is naturally a servant so her identity was in what she did and felt that serving was giving her heart. We finally starting breaking through when she came to the revelation that Jesus wanted her heart not her service.
The next break through came when we recognized and believed the glory of God was in us and was our new DNA (Christ in us). That we were the expression of His glory to people not our works. When Moses demanded (or asked with great weight) to see God’s glory, it was interesting what God revealed to him.
Moses saw God deliver the Jews, leave for the promised land with the riches of Egypt on their backs, the cloud by day, the fire by night, the Red Sea open, the Egyptian army drown, their every need provided, their clothes not wearing out, the Lord speak to Moses at the burning bush, etc. etc. Most Christians would have said he had already seen the glory of God.
When the Lord revealed His glory he described it this way (Ex 34:6) – He is compassionate, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, loving the multitudes and forgiving of all sin, iniquity and rebellion. What Moses saw was Jesus Himself.
Here is where it gets good. Those attributes of Jesus is the glory of God all of which now reside in us. We are now totally free to exhibit His glory to those in our lives and to the world. We know longer need to ask for these things they are in us and we walk (release) by faith those attributes as expressions of His glory.
Bruised – you are precious to the Lord and He has chosen you as an object of his Love and Glory. This is possible because He made you righteous not in the hope that someday you can attain righteousness. —- All by faith!!!
Don’t mean to be long winded is just happens sometimes. You are in good hands and I am confident the Lord will complete the work in you that He began in you in Christ Jesus.
Irv
Canary — I love it!! LOL
Stunned – I thought you said it just fine! One problem you do not have is communicating your heart. — 100% correct – as usual!! I love it!!
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When I have had to referee at times, I make if very clear right up front “that I may not always get it right but I am never wrong”
Bruised, Stunned is 100% correct. (I’m not joking.)
Irv, Jim, check’s in the mail.
For the record, Irv is 99.9% correct.
We have not been become what Adam was before the Fall.
Everything else he’s saying is correct, and isn’t it wonderful?!
(Still not joking.)
Irv – Good to hear from you as always! Amen to your comment on 5/11 @ 1251. I have spent the last week+ going to bed at night and pondering the great exchange that occurred on my behalf thanks to Jesus; hallelujah, what a Savior!
Stunned on 5/11 at 1713 – right on, right on! Tell it!
All – today at lunch I ran into two young pastors (who I know) who went to RTS. I asked them if they had classes with Steve Brown. Immediately they beamed, became animated, and responded with an enthusiastic “Yes!”. They were very familiar with SF. One of them said it was “liberating”.
Free at last, ya’ll!
Former SG Pastor
FSGP, rejoicing with you – freedom!
Stunned, I can only agree with the others – your words to Bruised are right on.
Bruised, are you feeling the love???:)
Yes…. Canary… I do feel the love.
got on line here at work this morning – starting reading with tear filled eyes………..
It is peaceful to just “rest” in the Lord for this season!
What a blessing. No more trying to measure up and be a “BETTER GODLY WOMAN”……
Who I am is quite enough in Christ…..
Hugs gang!
Bruised, what gorgeous words, Who I am in quite enough in Christ. Amen!!!!!!!!!
FormerSGPastor, what a WONDERFUL way to fall asleep!
I was a member in Steve Brown’s church in Miami Fl 35 years ago. I am in Atlanta now and he comes here a few times a year to teach at Perimeter Church (my church home). I was Steve before Steve was cool! :) And he is still cool.