I thought Jim’s words needed repeating.  Stunned, if your conscience is keeping you from signing on the dotted line, then perhaps other things going on around you are also causing you such concern.  If you can bear with those things out of love for the brethren (and your boyfriend!), becoming a member isn’t that big of an issue (unless you are signing away important rights – that is another matter!).

 There is a reason that the canary dies first while in the mine.  The air is bad!   If it is that kind of situation, then you will continue to be disturbed if you are surrounded by a lot of stinky air that keeps growing and growing (like leaven) until your faith can’t breath anymore.  If that is not the case, it could be that you are being asked to give away some of your freedom in order to join this church.  We all give up bits of our freedom when love is involved (family events, time, sleep, etc.), and when we want an orderly society (driver’s license, stop signs, etc.).   Order is important in a group situation.

However, and this is a big however, being required to give up your freedom in Christ…well, it is time to draw a line in the sand.  How you worship, who you “confess” to,
following authority outside of God’s limits placed on man, where you live, who you marry…these are decisions that YOU must make.  If a church infringes on your rights as an individual in Christ, that is a serious matter that could jeopardize your faith.

So ask the Lord which way the wind blows.  Is it that the church just wants some order established to better serve the saints, or do the leaders desire to control the outcome of every life and situation?  It was obvious in the church I left that the need to control was the issue.  It will become obvious to you as well.

I hope this helps some.  It just occurred to me this morning.  Things aren’t always as black and white as we think.  Motives can be subtle.  Or they can be simple.  I’m sure the Lord will show you which way to go, Stunned.  Let us know what happens! 

LOL…Great advice in ALL things!  :-)

Often, a church will hire someone to work for them that is not a member.  Why not?  If it is a non-ministerial position, if it is an admin or finanacial or clerical, one would not have to be a member.

Membership is not a ‘biblical’ concept, since we are one in Christ upon our statement of belief in Lordship of Christ, and our belief in his finished work.

However, in the modern world, (and this is really really pitiful), church insurance companies require membership of congregants who are going to be placed in positions of leadership, particularly with children.  Membership adds a layer of ‘accountability.’  To join a church, one must usually meet with elders and give ‘proof’ of their faith in Christ.  Churches are coming under stupid and evil lawsuits more and more, and need to protect themselves.  That is truly pitiful.

I dunno.  I’m kind of in the middle on this one.

Perhaps the question should be, “What is wrong with joining a church?  How could it be construed as disobedience to our Saviour to do so?”

The Word never tells us that a church owned a building.  Or had a tutoring ministry.  Or hired a secretary.  Or hired an office administrator.  But we wouldn’t fuss at those. 

Is this an issue that should simply be one of conscience:  if you feel strongly led not to join, don’t?  (and forfeit leadership opportunities or nursery service, which seems to me an awesome thing!!!)   If you don’t have a problem with it, join? 

Stunned, this is probably one of the ways you are called to help them!  Organization!

That said, membership is simply joining formally with a body of believers.  I never got the signing a covenant like SGM’s, waayyyyyyy too involved.  

You are bright confident woman, I love your posts–simply let your yes by yes, your no be no, and smile alot.  Whether you join or not.

Just catching up on my blog reading.  Can I ask, why would they not allow you to go to the retreat without “signing”, but will consider you for employment, though you are not a member? 

I have one thing to add:  You go girl! Sounds like you really love God’s saints.  Do all that you do as though unto the Lord.  Makes it simple. 

Dear God, thank you for giving us laughter!!!! If only I could enjoy being part of, serving in, loving a church without the other icky stuff. Also pray for me about going on staff with this church (15 hours a week). I need work, and wonder if this is God’s way of giving me a voice there. Right now I feel I don’t have much of a voice as I feel they will think I am just spurting sour grapes after being rejected about this weekend. I like these people and pray that if what I am seeing is meant to be said, He positions me to be able to do so.(Just minor things but I feel God prompting me to say somehting about it a la the Canary in the mines.)

Thanks again for the laughs!

I agree with GD, but have resigned myself to the fact that most Americans are quite content with the 21st Century model. “We’ve always done it this way….”

…err, not really 

GD, thank you so much for taking the time to respond. What you said is something that I find my spirit (is it the Holy Spiriti inside of me dare I say?) was in total agreemtn with you. Your words remind me of a quote I just found the other day. It is by that great theologian, Steve Jobs. “Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of other’s opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, …have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”

Jim, I also appreciate your words. Though they seem to say something very different from what GD said (though not in disagreement with), most of what you said also resonated with me. I am tempted to such freedom from worry and freedom to “belong” by simply signing. I don’t actually agree with everything in their statement but after talking with people about it I know there is the things that are “essential” and non-essentials and it is the essentials I agree on. I hadn’t seen my own possible conviction about not buying into man made things as a bondage in itself until I read what you wrote. (Yes, Jim, I know you didn’t seem to say that, but it triggered something in me and made me think of it so for that I thank you.)

I will continue to pray about this and appreciate the freedom in Christ you have both offered me.

I have only been part of two churchs before this one. (That’s in a 43 year time period, but please, GD, continue to think of me as someone younger than you. I like it.) The church I grew up in and my old still beloved in some ways, SGM church.

In my childhood church I didn’t join because in my conscience I couldn’t agree to all of their theology. (I apparently was advanced for being a little kid.) But I was still fully accepted there, served on many committees, was part of worship, everything. I would say that it helped that my dad was an elder and my mother a beloved bible study teacher but I know that church well enough that EVERYONE was accepted and treasured. But my beloved minister spent more time during sermons quoting other Christians or theologians than he did the bible.

So at 19 I found this new church that preached THE BIBLE!!!!! Maybe once in a great while they may quote someone else but it was the bible and Jesus and God and it was awesome. I never joined there either, because at the time I began they didn’t have “membership” (and I still wouldn’t have known how I felt about “signing on the dotted line”). They had teachings that later on became “new members’ classes” and eventually my name was just put on the members list when they created a “member’s list”. (This was my old SGM church.)

So actually in my 43 years I have never “joined” a church though I’ve been on the roles of 3 and very involved in all 3.

Thanks again for giving me your thoughts. This is hard and it helps having brothers and sisters to walk this through with.

Ps. I have to say it’s sort of ironic that later on that my SGM church ended up quoting other men more than they did the bible even more than my childhood church had.

Good question. I get things stuck in my craw too. I asked my doctor to just remove the darned thing, and he just looked at me kinda funny.

Here’s the situation as I see it. The way we “do church” bares little resemblance to the NT church. You won’t find membership, sr pastors, tithes, buildings, paid staff, or a multitude of other things that we consider normal in the NT. This is where we find ourselves in the 21st century. A pragmatic business model determines how things are done.

The case is made that the NT does not forbid this, therefore there is liberty. I personally think that 1 Cor 14 is descriptive AND prescriptive, but this is the minority view today.

People want a paid, full-time staff. They want to meet in a comfortable building. They want a good worship team, and they want to hear a good sermon. When they’re in the hospital, they expect a visit from the pastor.

If they way we “do church” doesn’t violate your conscience, and you’re ok with the pragmatic model, then I’d jump in with both feet. Membership is no more or less Biblical than everything else we do on Sunday morning.

I would carefully examine the document, and ensure that you aren’t agreeing to stipulations that could lead to bondage.

I don’t know if this is the right place to post this question, so Jim, please feel free to move it.

It’s sort of a theological question. I’ve been at my church for the past 4 years now. I haven’t joined for a couple of reasons but I am involved heavily in my home group, do some service there and have very deep relationships there. In part I have not joined because I think I have something stuck in my crawl (or where ever that saying gets things stuck) about churches requiring you to do something the bible never requires. This is where my question comes in. Over the years I have heard MANY sermons (but not at this church) on why church membership should be important. But I still can’t seem to find any where in the New Testament where a “sign on the dotted line” is commanded or even given as an example. Would someone here please (kindly if you would) share with me some scripture that I may be missing out on, to convince me that signing on the dotted line (so to speak) is not merely a man made thing?

This is a very sensitive subject for me right now. There is a church leadership retreat happening right now that I have been banned from going on because I am not an official member, though they say they want me and my gifts, personality to help the hurting (I know, it’s hard to believe from those of you who only read my postings), and they wish I could be there but I can’t because I am not a member. It doesn’t help that my boyfriend, who is also not a member and who has been at the church a shorter period of time, HAS been allowed to go. So please go easy if you would.

I truly WANT to be convinced that “signing on the dotted line” is somewhere in the bible because THEN I could do so freely and it would make my life a whole lot easier. But for now, I believe it is a man made regulation for easier administrative duties. (Which I understand. Especially as I am going in for an interview on Monday to WORK for this church.) But something inside of me is just saying that it is a man made requirement and after being made free from so many man made things that I THOUGHT were good and healthy but turned out were not, I don’t want to backtrack again.

Thank you,
Stunned

So Dennis, what is the practical outworking of what you posted?  The church closest to your house is the one?  The first one you visit in a town?  I don’t understand.  If you have teens, why would you seek to worship and serve a church without a strong youth program, if all congregations are the Body? 

I COMPLETELY agree we are one in Christ, that is one of my biggest rants against SGM, they see themselves as very separate and very superior to the rest of us lesser reformed/evangelical/charismatics. 

But practically, on Sunday at 9, where do you decide which direction to drive in?  And what happens if you want to worship with a group of brothers/sisters three blocks away instead of staying where you are.

This is something that has always puzzled me about SGM.  SGM is the same as 1st Baptist which is just the same as 3rd Pres which is like Wesley Methodist–gatherings of the faithful.  Leaving SGM to join in worship with others = a non issue.

Now, the angst and hurt DEFIINITELY is, and must be addressed, repented, forgiven.

Gotta run.

As far as what you mentioned about the home meetings above, I heard the same thing.  To be held in said ex-pastors lavish basement, I understand.   Important stuff, dealing with Mormons.  I know I run into that scenario almost daily. 

You said: “He can ONLY say that when he discerns, in love, that another church might be a better fit for his beloved congregant.”

In the New Testament, there was one church and one “fit” – yes, one size fits all. The church is not a marketable product, like many have made it today. There is one Lord, and one faith. There was no shopping for the right church. For example, I hear people talking today about looking for a church that has a good youth group for their kids. Some are looking for a church with “contemporary” worship, while others want only hymnal type songs. Some churches offer 2 services to accomodate both! “Well isn’t that special!”

That said, he can ONLY say that when he discerns, in love, that another church might be a better fit for his beloved congregant, and I am well aware that is not the situation you are discussing.

Speaking of different churches, I heard that the attendance at the Summit, G.Emer-on’s regional men’s meeting, is down bigtime this weekend.

Do you think that is finances only?  Or is something else going on?

http://www.sgmidatlantic.com/t.....eakers.htm

Jiggler, 9/16, 5:42–dang near fell off the chair laughing.