Some updates for those who are interested…
I’ve been afraid to upgrade WordPress, as I’ve broken the blog before. We were still using the original version we launched with over a year ago. There’s been a number of attack warnings in the blogosphere, telling people like me to upgrade NOW. I paid someone to do it for me, and hopefully, things will load faster and fewer comments will go in to moderation. Hopefully…
I haven’t posted stats since March, and thought what the hey… someone might be interested. Here’s what I find really cool-there are rules of blogging. Best practices. Post on a regular basis, interact with commenters, welcome new commenters, read your own blog, etc. I don’t have time to be a “good blogger”, yet our numbers are still strong. It’s very encouraging to start something that continues without your involvement. In our worst month of the year we’re read by over 32K individuals? Crazy stuff…
Here are the stats for the last 5 months, in pageview/unique visitor format.
April-127721/41961
May-117487/38990
June-102474/36608
July-93202/32488
August-118811/38024
September 6th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Wow! Thanks for posting those stats. That is encouraging. As a recent leaver and still feeling hurt and “abused” it is such a blessing to have these blogs out there. I really do feel like I need a support group now that we left and I realized what happened to us over the last 6 years.
Thanks for keeping it up.
September 6th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Leaver-first comment, I think?
If so, welcome!
It’s good news that more people read this blog than SGM has members. I’m not around here much these days, but you’ll find some good people here.
September 7th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Those numbers are astounding! Just think, that many folks are reading our little, ole comments.
Welcome, Leaver!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Welcome, Leaver!
We’re glad you are here!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Glad you’re here too, Ellie
You sure have been quiet…
September 7th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Thanks, Jim!
I’m always “here”, but sometimes I’m just content to “listen”.
Lately, I’ve been disgusted with the nonsense going on with the local sgm church & the two-faced behavior coming from some of the younger members who are learning to “play the game” towards some kids who used to be their friends who don’t go to the church anymore. Some real “Christian” attitudes, donchaknow? (Can’t really get into it, wish I could though!!)
September 7th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
“Lately, I’ve been disgusted with the nonsense going on with the local sgm church & the two-faced behavior coming from some of the younger members who are learning to “play the game” towards some kids who used to be their friends who don’t go to the church anymore. Some real “Christian” attitudes, donchaknow?”
Ellie, I’m familiar with that game.
Saw it played numerous times at CrossWay.
Maybe they’ll “suddenly change” one day! (sarcasm intended)
September 7th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Leaver – the jiggler extends you a warm welcome and thinks you’ll benefit from this site in many weird and wonderful ways. Because you are new, the jiggler has compassion for you and will show you the ropes. The jiggler offers this to you because your name is Leaver and not Stayer. If your name were Stayer the jiggler would still have compassion for you but would not show you the ropes. Stayers don’t believe in ropes (or at least ropes not woven by CJ).
Ellie – the jiggler is reminded of one SGM pastor he knows. Said pastor lives in Jonestown, a subdivision of roughly one million homes in a large southeastern city. The subdivision, as large as it is, has roughly one hundred community pools and anyone who lives in Jonestown can go to any of the pools any time they want (it’s all covered in the homeowners dues). Anywho, this pastor, who is also a successful small business owner, built an in ground pool in his back yard. The jiggler has it on good authority that the reason the pool was built was so that the pastor’s kids do not have to go to the community pool. (the jiggler thinks the real reason is because the jiggler told his wife she would look “fine” in a bikini but the jiggler cannot confirm. The jiggler meant it in an edifying way.) The jiggler finds it rather ironic that in a church where there is an expressed desire for an increased focus on evangelism there is also a pastor on staff who is willing to spend a boatload of cash in order to ensure that his kids are not contaminated nor his wife’s modesty endangered by swimming with the heathen. If they are willing to go to these lengths, the odds on them letting their children, who are destined for greatness, play with your children, who are on the express train to mediocrity, are slim to none.
Consequently, the jiggler is training his children to hunt their children down, tackle them, and lick them on the face while screaming “NOW YOU’LL NEVER BE ACCEPTED INTO PASTOR’S COLLEGE! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!” or the jiggler’s personal favorite “YOU CAN KISS COURTING GOODBYE! MUHAHAHAHAHA!”
It’s actually pretty funny because none of the home schooled kids can run. Or wrestle for that matter. The jiggler kids own them.
(In the interest of full disclosure: It is true that one of the jiggler’s children was accused of dropping a deuce in the baby pool and one of his other children was accused of de-pantsing a CCC child in the big pool. HOWEVER, it has never been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that either event ever occurred.)
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
September 7th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Jim, thanks for posting the stats and maintaining this blog. Yes, you are a good blogmeister–you aim for truth and accuracy and monitor the discourse so that there is civility and respect among the bloggers. I appreciate that.
Leaver, welcome to freedom. If you like to read, a few books that I am currently reading may also help you on your journey. These have been mentioned in past postings, but bear mentioning again:
“The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen (It’s sad that though this book was published in 1991, the information is still quite relevant and applicable today.)
I especially liked this passage from p. 41 of the book: “How would you picture a Christian who is growing in godliness? Would they convey restfulness, which comes from being comfortable and at peace with God? Would they convey a sense of fulfillment, knowing that whatever spiritual work they were doing was in God’s will, instead of feeling they had to keep striving for more perfection? Would their advice begin by directing you to Jesus, or would it cause you to focus on yourself and your behaviors? And, ultimately, would the Christian bring with them a sense of life, which Paul describes as ‘the sweet fragrance of Jesus Christ’ (2 Corinthians 2:15, AMP)?
Other books that I am finding helpful are:
“Twisted Scriptures” by Mary Alice Chrnalogar
“Boundaries” by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
September 8th, 2009 at 7:56 am
During our decision making process I did read The Hidden Power of Spiritual Abuse and found it very helpful. I think I saw it mentioned on the survivor site. I can’t even remember how I found these two sites but I found them right when we needed them. After I read the book and we talked it over we realized what was happening and just could not attend any longer. Having these sites has been great because it has helped validate our decision. Not that we needed anyone but the Holy Spirit to do that for us but so many wonderful people on here have put in to words much more eloquently and succinctly what had been bothering us but we couldn’t put the finger on why it bothered us.
The main reasons we left were obvious to us as in the cult like culture, the huge emphasis on sin while missing the message of Christ’ defeat of sin, wanting a church that had real missionaries, feeling pressure to conform, forced charasmatism (I don’t think that is a word but you know what I mean), and ultra tight control on the spiritual lives of its members.
I am still feeling very hurt and sad that we “wasted” 6 years of our lives there learning nothing but a new form of legalism. I like to call it New Testament legalism. God sure has taught us many things through this though not the least of which has been understanding his Grace. The Spiritual Abuse has really opened my eyes to that as well. Understanding God’s grace for ourselves changes how you relate to those around you. The more you understand his grace to you the more you can extend his Grace to your friends, children or spouse. It has been so freeing.
Thank you all for your warm welcome. I had been reading for a few months but didn’t comment until now. I am still afraid of being “found out” by former church friends but I think I am starting to come out of that now.
Jiggler, you’re are funny. We laughed so hard at your beach church conversations. You guys are great.
September 8th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I can tell you that the upper levels of (then) PDI leadership were given a copy of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. All of them. Plus all of our local leaders. This would have been back when the book was hot off the presses. I know this for a fact because I sent the books to them along with a letter expressing how we had experienced the abuses spoken of at one of their local churches. In full disclosure, I must tell you that I sent them anonymously. Still very scared of the repercussions back then in the early 90’s. Their response? I have no way of knowing as I did not give them a return address, but the apostle from our part of the PDI world tried to track us down somehow through our local shipping store so that he could send the book back. My husband regularly did business with the shipping store and they would not give out any of our personal information, but were disturbed by this man’s insistence and asked us what on earth we had sent him!
This was nearly 20 years ago, of course, and maybe the response would be different now. However, I have often lamented here and over on survivors that if they had just READ it and taken it seriously way back then, how much error, pain, and false kingdom building could have been averted?
Jiggler, your post brought tears to my eyes. Mostly from laughter but also from pain.
Jiggler said, “If they are willing to go to these lengths, the odds on them letting their children, who are destined for greatness, play with your children, who are on the express train to mediocrity, are slim to none.” The truth and pain of this statement are quite poignant. My daughter was involved in a local home school group that, though not affiliated with SGM in any way, was (and still is, as far as I can tell) functioning in some of the same types of errors. She went in to that organization completely open-hearted and was told, mostly by their actions, though occasionally in word as well, that she was not good enough for them. “They were destined for greatness and she for mediocrity” really sums up how she was made to feel. Seven years later, she is STILL struggling to throw that horrible label off of herself. Please pray for her and others like her within SGM who are hurting yet trying to keep their spiritual head above water.
Jiggler also said, “Consequently, the jiggler is training his children to hunt their children down, tackle them, and lick them on the face while screaming “NOW YOU’LL NEVER BE ACCEPTED INTO PASTOR’S COLLEGE! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!” or the jiggler’s personal favorite “YOU CAN KISS COURTING GOODBYE! MUHAHAHAHAHA!”
Now THIS is an interesting idea! It is light-hearted, yet gets directly to the point. Hmmm… I will have to explore this further to see if there might be some application for my daughter …
Thanks again, jiggler, for your gift of laughter.
September 8th, 2009 at 9:42 am
*sigh*
The damage and destruction in the lives of the children is one of the sadest things about this whole mess. What’s even more ironic is that most of them think they are doing the right thing, the best thing for their children. Blah.
Gracie. Tell your daughter that the jiggler loves her and will pray for her. Tell her that she is unique and God has created her to do what no one else can do. Tell her in a thousand years you and her and the jiggler will sit down and have a good chuckle at all of this.
September 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am
Gracie, A Kindred Spirit posted a website to Survivors the other day on the topic of courtship. This website is titled: Captain Bret’s Smith Dynasty Training Videos for Cultural Dominion.
http://www.homeschooladvantage.....isPage=230
I pulled up one video titled: An Epistemologically Self-Conscious Wedding. I will not seek to give my opinion (biting my tongue is hard!) but offer to you the following few unaltered words (amongst the many) the father of the bride spoke to the groom at the altar.
Here are the few words:
As a part of that preparation, there were some things we had to protect her from. We had to protect K (bride) from boys. And we did so. At a young, teenage, as a young teenager, K gave me the key to her heart and she pledged that she would allow me to guard her heart and that she would save her affections only for me till the day that I gave that key to another man.
You earned that key at your betrothal and I want you to know that I successfully, with God’s help, guarded her heart. And K never talked about boys, she never talked to boys, she never dated. As far as I know she never had imaginations about any young man until the day that I gave you permission to court my daughter. She has saved herself in body, and in mind, for you and for only you.
We also had to protect her from girls. We had to protect her from girls who would lead her down the wrong path, girls who dated guys and who talked about guys and who gave their heart to one and then gave their heart to another. To girls who did not have a vision for saving themselves. We protected her. We never allowed her to be friends with young ladies who did not have the same kinds of values.
September 8th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Jiggler,
I am laughing so hard my side is aching!
That was HILARIOUS! And I can appreciate it even moreso because I “know what you’re talking about.”
Ah, laughter is good for the soul!
It’s good to laugh when you’re hurting. It’s good medicine.
(Don’t let those homeschoolers know you think they can’t run. Their fathers actually believe they’ll be “scholarship” material one day. It’s that intense level of play they get on those home school teams.)
September 8th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
This may be a bit off topic, and I realize our experience could very well be an exception rather than the norm, but we have graduated 3 kids from the public school system and it has been nothing but grace-filled for them. They met other Christians in their schools, were able to attend after school bible studies, reach out to the unsaved in their schools and see first hand what the kids of today are faced with and you know what? They have turned out to be pretty compassionate adults…..who are still bringing these young people into our home.
I’m not saying the school system is perfect, but it has been a constant reminder to me of just how BIG our God is. Our daughter has special issues that require additional help and 3 schools we have dealt with have literally bent over backwards to assist her. Yes, home-schoolers can say it’s because they get $ per child, but you know what..the teachers and counselors in the school don’t profit from that personally. I have seen the eyes of teachers/administrators/counselors fill up, time after time, as they hear what our child is struggling with. The compassion from these professionals has touched our family for years.
I believe that parents know what is best for each child and certainly need to pray about that decision, I just have to chuckle when I hear so much about the “evil public school system” as that has not been our experience at all.
September 8th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
Thank you, Cardinal. As a public school teacher with my own kids in public school, I really appreciate your words. I love my students who are all big old teenagers–full of hormones, big ideas, big dreams, and so much more. They know I do–and we keep in touch, what a marvelous privilege I have. My own personal teenager still seeks out some of his elementary school teachers when we’re picking up little sister–and their faces light up when they see how much he’s grown.
September 8th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Ok, let’s start a(nother,) “Homeschoolers think families shouldn’t send their kids to public school,” thread. I think this sounds vaguely familiar. OK, I confess, yes… I…homeschool my kids, and on behalf of all the rude homeschooling families who have tried in any way to question your right or duty or calling to “public school” your kids, please forgive us. Go ahead, exercise your right to choose and don’t worry about what homeschoolers think of your choice. I’m not sitting at home wondering what you think of ours. Your choice is between your family and the Lord, as is ours. Which of your Christian brethren that homeschool would you accuse of not wanting your special child to get the education she needs? Me? I also have a special needs child, however our child benefited from the one-on-one that homeschooling provided, and that was our choice. Not better than yours, just better for us. You are fortunate to live in a location with good public schools, but that is not always the case. The schools we had to choose from were infested with drugs and violence, the kind with real knives and guns. Give the wonderful testimony about your grace filled experience, but could we maybe omit the part where you imply that (we/all) homeschoolers are wishing you’d fail, and that your kids would turn out to be heathens and losers because they went to public school? I sincerely wish you and your family blessings in our Lord instead and I’m so glad that the Lord met the needs of your family just as He planned. He is indeed a big God.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming….
September 9th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Sure…just please tell me where I implied that “all home-schoolers are wishing you’d fail, and that your kids would turnout to be heathens and losers because they went to public school?” I don’t recall saying anything even remotely close to that.
I home-schooled too….for many years, so I was trying to be sensitive, realizing this can be a sore subject. Which is also why I said that “our experience could be the exception, not the norm and also that I realize the school system is not perfect.”
Also, that “each parent knows what is best for their child.”
It would seem I hit a sore spot and that was not my intention at all. I was just looking for an opportunity to share something positive and give God glory.
September 9th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Hope,
I homeschooled my children for a season, as well.
What you have to remember is that many SGM families homeschool, (especially in previous years), and those who did not were really looked down upon. It was made *QUITE OBVIOUS* that if you chose to do ANYTHING other than homeschool you were basically awful parents.
The blogs are a place for people to vent at times and express YEARS of being oppressed by this stuff. Their “sarcasm” is healing, and is (in almost all cases) merely venting and not to be taken offensively. We could debate this all day long, you just have to trust me.
(Jiggler understands this and is a “master” at helping people find humor in their pain.)
There was a time I was critical of public schoolers. Shame on me!
September 9th, 2009 at 7:20 am
Hope,
If anything I said offended you in any way, I am sorry. That really was the furthest thing from my mind.
I am just happy to see people caring for my daughter when SGM has literally turned their back on her and caused her more pain through her trial.
Blessings to you and yours~
September 9th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
AKS, I go to the same church that you left. My kids were never homeschooled. Not once in 15 years have we ever been questioned or confronted about it. We were in a fantastic cg where we were loved and accepted as we were. The trick to sgm is who you hang around with. If you make the sgm poster families your closest friends, then you will feel the sting of their disapproval if you step off the reservation. If you make friends with people who excel at kindness and graciousness, then they will pray for you and support you (and defend you if need be) whatever decisions you make. You probably would have been a lot happier at CW if you had had the friends that I have.
September 9th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Thank you cardinal, I really do appreciate that and I also apologize if I offended you. I know you did not state word-for-word, what you quoted above. I used the word implied, because the tone/theme seems to promote an “us against them,” mentality and just doesn’t seem helpful, and it’s been repeated a lot. When you said, “Yes, home-schoolers can say it’s because they get $ per child, but you know what..” I think that implies that homeschoolers would begrudge your special child the $$s needed for her education. It’s lumping us all together, stereotyping. I didn’t care to be “lumped,” as I am quite happy that your daughter is being well cared for, because you know what’s best for her. I’m sure you don’t want to hear me come on here and sing about how wonderful homeschooling is and that ‘all my kids are now in Ivy League Schools,’ (which they’re not) and that ‘I don’t know why public school people don’t just see the light about the “evil public school system,” (as you put it.) I won’t do that (I’m not doing that.) If I sing about my choice, what am I saying about yours? Instead, I want to honor your choice, and I should honor your choice even if I happen to disagree with it. I am truly sorry if homeschoolers have been judgmental toward your family, but not all would be. Blessings….
September 9th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
The Missus,
That is too true. I know people who have no clue of the severity of control that can go on there. They just happened to stay in the circle “outside” of the conformers. That was our case for a while but once certain people befriend you there isn’t much you can do about it. I would feel really nervous going on Sunday mornings trying to avoid certain people but they kept at it. I think that for some reason they had us picked out for future leadership in the church and were trying to “build” with us (a.k.a trying to get us to conform to their ways). Once that started happening it was awful and we had to get out of there. The pressure was too great and we felt like we couldn’t be ourselves. I too know of people who don’t home school and are fine with it BUT they also don’t attend Care Group and pretty much just stay on the fringe. The problem comes when you become leadership material. Do you know of any people in leadership that don’t home school?
We did homeschool so that wasn’t our “issue” but there were other issues with us that I can’t go in to too much detail about for fear of being “found out”.
September 9th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Jim — forgive me if I missed this if it was explained elsewhere, but sometimes Imiss the fine print — do the numbers reflect the actual number of people (computers) that hit the site, or is it a total number of “hits” — i.e., if somebody looks 12 times a day, it it counted as 12 or as 1?
September 9th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
I wouldn’t describe us as fringe people. We’re pretty involved and we actually hosted cg at our house for many years. I’ve never gone out of my way to avoid anybody. No one ever saw us as “leadership” material, but to be honest, we don’t want to be in leadership so its no big deal to us. At our church, the leadership have all homeschooled their kids, but we have a few pastors whose kids are not yet school-age. With the new openness that we are trying to have, it will be interesting to see what they decide to do. I’m really hoping that someone will opt for something besides homeschooling as I believe that their newfound confidence that God can even work in kids who aren’t homeschooled needs to be more than theoretical. We’ll see.
September 9th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
BTW, I’d say the circle of conformers is a pretty small circle and getting smaller. In my opinion, there are many more people like us than there are people like them. Most conform in some aspects of life and go their own way in others. These things are seldom black and white.
September 9th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Hello Missus,
Did your children attend public school or one of the local Christian schools?
Wow…15 years…and you’ve never once had someone share that they felt looked down upon because they didn’t homeschool or Christian school? How about “courtship” and “short engagements”, or marrying outside of SGM? Those were always “biggies” for CW, as well.
It’s a real shame former CW folks didn’t know about “your group.” It would have saved folks like “I Got Out” a lot of heartache.
(I’m hearing a lot about this ”new openness”.)
September 9th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Square Peg,
I’m sorry, I can speak in code at times.
August-118811/38024 means that 38024 people viewed 118811 pages. So, if you visited the site 12 times, those 12 visits are in the left and column. If you visited 12 times and looked at 4 pages each time, your 48 pageviews would be in the left hand corner.
You would show up in the right hand column once.
I hope that makes sense-it’s been a long day…
September 9th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Hope -
You are right, and I am sorry for the generalization of homeschoolers. Like I said, I did homeschool and you certainly have my respect and support!
September 9th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Actually Kindred, if you are who I think you are, I believe you and I may have had a conversation or 2 along those lines.
September 9th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
Hello, Missus, welcome to the blog. I went back to read your comments again because it seems like you’re calling Kindred Spirit — and perhaps all of us — out.
If you think you know who someone is and you have a personal relationship with that person, I recommend doing that offlist–and I think that’s Jim’s preference as well.
September 10th, 2009 at 12:20 am
CHARLOTTE, NC – Confidential sources confirmed today that the mysterious individual known as the jiggler has acquired exclusive rights to market and distribute Captain Bret’s Smith Dynasty Training Videos for Cultural Domination. When confronted with the confirmed reports the jiggler offered the following:
“While the jiggler cannot confirm or deny the reports, the jiggler is willing to acknowledge that he is familiar with Captain Bret’s products and services. The jiggler will further stipulate that he is a business man and knows a killer product when he sees one. Plus the jiggler has first hand knowledge of an organization full of people who will eat this @#*$ up. A little re-branding and we are in business baby!”
When pressed for further details, the jiggler burst out into diabolical laughter, “MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,” shouted, “away knaves” and fled.
While the mental state of the jiggler is unknown at this time, the following pieces of information have also been uncovered and may shed some light on the jiggler’s sinister intentions:
1. An offshore corporation headquartered in Gelderland has partnered with Hasbro to release a full line of Mr. Safeguard action figures.
2. The internet domain WWW.CAPTAINCJ.COM has been purchased by a multinational conglomerate located in Nirobia.
3. A family in Ohio ordered ten thousand of the ugliest hawaian shirts ever made and is paying Amish children to hand embroider each one with a Captain CJ logo.
While it is possible that these seemingly connected events are in actuality unconnected, enlightened citizens are encouraged to take the threat of cultural domination seriously. Unenlightened Christians should hang their heads in shame and would do well to remember the words of Chesterton who wrote, “the only unanswerable argument against Christianity, is Christians.”
September 13th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Oh jiggler, you might make more money on barber razors.
Remember the little mice in the Narnia book that were going to cut off their tails, to imitate their leader Reepicheep who lost his tail, so Aslam gave him back a tail? You must not have hair while the leader has lost his. You must be bald. I suggest you rethink your business strategy if you want to make big bucks.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Acme, I don’t think I did anything wrong there. Kindred can handle it.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
The Missus said to A Kindred Spirit: ” You probably would have been a lot happier at CW if you had had the friends that I have. ” Missus, I think that perhaps you did do (say) something wrong here. Either that or Kindred Spirit is some sort of loser who can’t pick or attract the right friends. Maybe that’s not what you meant, but that’s how it comes across to me.
September 14th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
You’re right. That’s not what I meant.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
The Missus, I hope you’re right. You seem very confident in your assessments–more confident than I would be of someone else’s thoughts and feelings. I have even been surprised by my own reactions to things, so I would be reluctant to be so certain of someone else’s.
In my 20+ years at CLC I did observe a spectrum of opinions about schooling and other issues of conformity. However, since CGs were largely assigned by the pastors, finding other like-minded folks could be very challenging.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
The jiggler thinks you are getting your panties in a wad over nothing. The jiggler believes in the power of AKS to speak for herself. The jiggler thinks that just because someone takes a position that in some way could possibly be construed as pro sgm it is not an excuse to pick a fight. The jiggler thinks that a diversity of opinions is a good thing and must be protected.
Unless of course you are of the opinion that starting Jake next week is a good idea for the Panthers. If that is your opinion, you are an idiot and the jiggler farts in your general direction.
September 15th, 2009 at 5:07 am
Excuse me, jiggler, acme is not picking a fight and her panties are not any of your concern. acme’s opinion matters also–being part of that diversity jiggler so prizes and wants to protect.
September 15th, 2009 at 5:30 am
Dear jiggler, how very gallant of you to rush in to defend The Missus from my comments which evidently–in your expert opinion–came from the discomfort of a wedgie and not from my careful reading and understanding. I’m glad The Missus has had such a lovely experience; however, her experiences do not negate the less-than-lovely experiences of others, nor are they necessarily the fault of poor choices in selecting friends. I had a friend who loved to brag about her lovely labor and delivery experiences — no drugs, nurses commending her for her good character and fortitude –with the repeated implication that other far more harrowing experiences were somehow a result of character flaws. This feels the same–and , with all due respect, my opinion matters here too.
September 15th, 2009 at 5:50 am
Jiggler-
We don’t have a lot of rules, but we do have a few. One is “gents, be nice to the ladies”.
Acme can obviously handle herself, but call me old fashioned.
Please be a gentleman. You and I kid around a lot, but I’m serious.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:50 am
Acme,
My intent was not to blame AKS for not picking the right friends. In my case, I went to the cg I was assigned (they don’t assign cgs anymore – you get to pick your own) and as it turned out they were a fantastic group. I didn’t go looking for like-minded people. I woudn’t have known to do that back then. I’ve been very blessed. You’re absolutely right that my experience doesn’t negate the bad experience of others, but neither does their bad experience negate my good experience.
I’m sorry if I annoyed you.
September 15th, 2009 at 9:38 am
The jiggler appologizes for his poor choice of words. It was not his intent for the cliche used to be offensive in and of itself. Mea culpa, Mea culpa.
September 15th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Missus,
If you’re who I think you are, you probably were “calling me out”, in your own way.
No worries. I’m not offended. I’ve been wearing “big girl panties” for a long time.
The folks on this blog are my friends. What was it you said about friends? “If you make friends with people who excel at kindness and graciousness, then they will pray for you and support you (and defend you if need be)…”
I’m glad SGM/CW works for you and your family, and that you’ve not suffered the pain that others have experienced.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:59 am
If you know who I am, give me a call and let’s talk. I always thought of you as a friend. I’d love to catch up with you and hear all about how you’re doing.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:17 am
I think it’s a little sad when someone who is still in SGM comes on here telling of how wonderful things are now as if that somehow negates the pain caused in the past. Especially in light of Mickey’s “all they have to do is get in touch with me if they’ve been hurt” nonsense. If all this change is deep and genuine, there would be more than just a quick change of direction and a “new” attitude. Repentance involves some sort of sorrow for what’s transpired, doesn’t it? I don’t see that and I’m not hearing that.
I especially think it sad when someone comes on here and implies that somehow being in relationship with the SGM inner-sanctum and being crushed by them is the result of poor choices in friend-choosing. If the church is some “family” like we were taught it was and takes priority of all else, shouldn’t we all be in some sort of relationship with one another? If we are walking around with a clipboard asking folks to pass a questionnaire before we will befriend them, doesn’t that lead to cliques (like junior high school) instead of real relationships. I’m too old to play games nor do I have the energy for such things.
Right now, I’m of the mentality that some friendships are easier and happen more naturally and some are more work and can be more challenging. But the Word does say that “iron sharpens iron”, right? So, do we just surround ourselves with happy, happy, joy, joy relationships and avoid the ones that stretch us??? Nah… that is unles we think we’ve arrived and don’t need to be challenged anymore.
A healthy debate over things we may not see eye to eye on isn’t bad. At least I don’t think so. But, it does require humility (because we have to acknowledge that we may actually NOT know everything) and it does require a level of respect for others. Maybe the fact that SGM leadership doesn’t come on here and face our thoughts is because they are lacking these two things. Just a thought…
September 16th, 2009 at 9:27 am
I Got Out,
What can I say? I’m really sorry. What you think I said is not what I meant to say at all!!!! I am NOT your enemy and my intention was not to blame anyone for choosing the wrong friends.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Missus-
I don’t believe you are anyone’s enemy. You just have a different perspective and, it would appear from some of your postings, are adament about your perspective. Which is fine, because I’m fairly adament about my perspective as well. I would just say that your initial response about to Kindred in the friend choosing thing was a response which I believe does not help the situation. I too had friends who were kind and understanding but when the rubber met the road and I was failed by leadership over and over and then finally crushed by them, my kind and understanding friends were absolutely silent. They stood by and watched me be nearly destroyed. They didn’t fight for me or alongside me. And they are still sitting in the church espousing the grace and love that is now being embraced. It’s a little bit of a pill to swallow.
Basically what this prevelant mentality says to me (and I would suspect to others who were hurt as I was) is that we don’t matter. Our feelings don’t matter (at CW the word “feelings” was a nasty word) and our perspective is insignificant. Thankfully, to our Father who gave us the ability to feel, they do matter.
Jesus leaves the 99 to find the 1. In your experience with SGM, is that what’s happening with the way more than 1 on this site? Our do you find that we tend to be labeled “bitter” and are SGM attenders told to avoid this site and us because of our experiences and what those experiences have done to us? Don’t you think that says something about the new attitude?
We do have a common enemy–at least I believe so. We’re just not fighting him together. He’s got us fighting each other. Now, that’s a tragedy.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:00 am
The Missus,
I don’t know you, so I certainly won’t try to ascertain your intentions in your comments. Comments are like any other means of communication… easily misunderstood at times!
Having said that, one way to avoid any kind of miscommunication is to read and re-read your comments before hitting the submit button. I have (many times!) a quick trigger finger… I know what I am trying to say and think that others will understand my verbiage… but alas!… just because I know what I’m saying doesn’t mean that my communication is clear to others! OY VEY!!
There are a lot of hurting folks here at The Refuge, and with the history they (we) have with SGM, it’s very easy to understand why and how they can read into your words intentions or meaning that you may or may not be trying to convey.
I appreciate your tone here and am thankful that you continue to come back, providing clarification to those here who have possibly misread your comments.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:06 am
I can’t have this conversation on a blog. If you ever want to contact me, I’m willing to listen to whatever you have to say and I’ll be glad to tell you what I think and why I think it. I’m pretty sure a lot of it would surprise you. There’s just too much opportunity to be misunderstood here.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:07 am
I would have to agree with Missus. Crossway is changing in a positive direction. My husband and I met through Match.com while I was a CW member and Ihad overwhelming support from pastors and friends except from certain people that just happened to come back from the Mooresville church plan including Brent. (my husband – Baptist) We have been happily married for almost 7 years. There are a lot of people at CW that are not happy and little nervous with all these “likeminded” coming back to crossway.
We are not facing the choice of homescooling for another 3 years, but I do have to work (not a choice, but a need) outside of home and I have experienced nothing but love and support from people around me. I do not discount people on this blog who have been hurt in the past or continue being hurt by SGM leadership but there is a big positive shift at CW.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:14 am
The Missus, this is why I recommended way back on September 9th that you contact whoever you think AKS might be and TALK to her off the blog.
However, I have a CLC friend who wanted to “bring me some observations” about what I had posted here–or even that I posted here at all–and I honestly couldn’t even stand to have that conversation one more time.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:20 am
The Missus… like I said in my earlier comment, this is just like any other form of communication. Misunderstandings happen. I just hope you understand the level of pain and hurt these people have experienced through the sin issues and unbiblical exploits of SGM leaders/pastors. It’s almost impossible to trust SGM after all these folks have been through at the hands of SGM leaders/pastors. So please don’t take any of this personally… it’s the organization you are a part of that causes the mistrust and the misunderstandings… after all, our words have been taken and twisted around and thrown back in our face by this organization… there is a reason they no longer have our respect and trust.
Again, please don’t take this personally… your tone and your recurring visits here are appreciated and welcome. I tend to think that if open communication with SGM’s pastors/leaders were an option, we could work together to rectify these issues that are rampant in SGM.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Oh! One more thing… you can always reach me at Carole at SGMRefuge dot com if you have any questions or concerns or anything…
September 16th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Hi Cannon! Welcome to The Refuge!
I sure hope you are right that things are changing at Crossway! Believe me when I say that if that is the case we will be rejoicing with you!! After all, The Refuge isn’t just for those who have been sinned against by SGM… it is for those still in SGM, too! After all, any reform that takes place within the SGM organization will not affect us in any way… we are not a part of SGM any longer. But you are!! Reform will affect you!!
However, there are still people that have been sinned against in grievous ways… those people need to be sought out by those that have sinned against them and there needs to be some repenting and reconciliation going on. That would be the evidence of change in SGM.
I just find it interesting that SGM pastors/leaders stance is “If anyone wants to talk to me, my door is always open”… I am of the opinion that they should be on the phone, emailing, whatever they need to do to make things right. It’s not up to the hurt and wounded to contact them… it’s their sin, their responsibility. I will never be convinced that they don’t know who they have sinned against and hurt. I mean, weren’t they there? Isn’t the Holy Spirit living inside them, convicting them?
So, while I am happy for you and your positive experience with SGM and the changes you see taking place in your church, there is still alot more work that needs to be done within the walls of SGM.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Hi Carole,
Excellent point! I once asked my SGM pastor about him pursuing those that had left. I reminded him of the parable of the lost sheep, and leaving the 99 to find the one. His response was “That was about Jesus seeking the lost, not him.” He said he had enough to do taking care of the ones who were still there, and had no interest in seeking out those who had left. But the entire 10 years I was at this church, I never got one single phone call from this pastor to say “hi”, or “how are you doing”. Even when he knew I was sick, in distress, or in need, he never called to see how I was doing. I talked with him about this on more than one occasion, but it never made any difference.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Acme, I seem to have made you angry and for that I apologize.
September 16th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Carole and Dennis-
Amen.
If one of my children is hurting (by my hand, in part) and another is thriving because they haven’t been subjected to the same sinful behavior on my part, I don’t wag my finger at the hurting one and say “look at your brother/sister…he/she is just fine”. I say I’m sorry and I go about the business of healing with the one I’ve wounded and rejoice that I didn’t make the same mistake with the one doing well.
Should we expect less from our pastors? I think not.
September 16th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Our SG senior pastor told me one time that his door was always open too. I thanked him and passed that on to a friend of mine who expressed serious problems with that same pastor.
Based on what I thought was true, I told my friend to just go to the senior pastor; his door is always open. Well my friend finally, after two months of persistence, got in front of this “apostle” and was told for 45 minutes that he (my friend) should submit because of his (the sr pastor) tenure and calling as a pastor. My friend was accused of pride and a rebellious spirit among other things. He was then given a book on humility by C.J. My friend’s grievance was totally ignored and the “spotlight” was turned from the sr. pastor to my friend’s sin.
My friend has never returned. So much for the open door policy and humility that is so often paraded up front in SG “churches.”
September 16th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
The Missus said, “Acme, I seem to have made you angry and for that I apologize.”
:sigh: Maybe you didn’t see my earlier comment in this thread, so I will post a portion here. To read the whole comment, scroll up a little.
Carole said, “Having said that, one way to avoid any kind of miscommunication is to read and re-read your comments before hitting the submit button.”
Hopefully we all have a common goal here, that common goal being trying to communicate honestly with one another and respectfully toward each other. I would highly encourage everyone to read, then re-read their comments before posting.
September 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
SGM’s open door policy is like opening the door to a firing squad or a lion’s den. “Sure, come on in and let us tear you to pieces and rip your guts out.” Their office door is open, but their heart’s door is closed to the hurts they have caused. They are open to confronting you, but they are not open to your conrontation of them. It is a one way street.
September 16th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Dennis writes, “SGM’s open door policy is like opening the door to a firing squad or a lion’s den.”
Dennis, when I read that I had to laugh out loud. If it wasn’t so true it would be hilarious!
September 16th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
And the sad part is why do we give them so much power over us in the first place? Incredible!
September 16th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
The jiggler thinks that the odds of the drones coming back to CCC from the plant and not reinfecting the place and totally snuffing out any hope of recovery are slim.
For the record, all of the jiggler’s opinions are expert opinions and should be treated as such. However, it should please some of you to know that several people who read this board and know the jiggler in real life have attempted to assault him over his rude comments. The jiggler says “attempted” because the jiggler has catlike reflexes and the physical assaults were quickly repulsed and followed by devastating cage fighting counter attacks. The jiggler digresses… the point the jiggler was trying to make is that he has been humbled inside and outside of the matrix. The jiggler remains confident in his ability to stick his foot in his mouth and looks forward with eager anticipation to his next gaff.
September 16th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
I am not mad at the Missus, nor was I terribly offended by the Jiggler’s panty reference itself. I was trying to edit my first response to the Jiggler after a sleepless night, writing and rewriting, when the edit function timed out and so both responses posted, so it might have looked like I was angrier/more hurt.
I was and am not willing to be silenced because someone else doesn’t think something is a big deal. I’m learning to speak up and not just turn it in on myself as I did for far too long.
Blog life is rife with opportunities to put one’s foot in it–and it’s easy to misread tone or respond too quickly. Thank you, Carol, for the reminder.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Missus,
Are you confident that you and “your group” have never been responsibile for some of the pain shared on the blogs?
Sometimes people can be deluded into thinking they “exel in graciousness and kindness” toward others when in fact they come across rather smug.
I personally deal much better with blatant “in-your-face” types.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Carole,
“Hopefully we all have a common goal here, that common goal being trying to communicate honestly with one another and respectfully toward each other. I would highly encourage everyone to read, then re-read their comments before posting.”
Thanks for the reminder…..and for your care here, you are loved!
xo
September 16th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Kindred,
Can you be more specific? Is there something in particular that you think I may have been smug about?
September 16th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Dennis, Please, do tell all….
September 16th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Missus,
When I’ve personally been deluded, I find that the Lord is really the only one who can reveal the areas I’m deluded in.
“Search me [thoroughly], O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there is any wicked or hurtful way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.”
September 16th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
The Missus… are you not reading my comments to you or are you just ignoring me? Your demeanor here is slipping rapidly, my friend.
I will state again, just in case you miseed it the first (or second or even the third) time…
“Read and Re-Read before hitting the submit button”… and “Hopefully we all have a common goal here, that common goal being trying to communicate honestly with one another and respectfully toward each other. ”
… “Respectfully” being the key word…
September 16th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Carole,
What did I say that was disrespectful?
September 16th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
It is really starting to seem as if you are just trying to start an argument. I don’t know if you are not thinking about what you are saying or how it may come across to others, or if you are deliberately trying to start something with the guests here. All I’m asking you to do is to stop and think, re-read your comment, evaluate how it sounds, and change it if need be before you post it. This is what we ask of everyone here.
I will state again… any form of communication can be misunderstood. We should all be striving to be clear and concise in our communication, and do our utmost to respect others especially through our words. It’s okay to disagree, as none of us will ever agree with anyone else 100%. It’s not okay to get personal and continue to “call someone out”.
I have stated before… you are welcome here and can voice your views regarding SGM or any other topic you choose to espouse, as long as it’s kept in the “general” realm, not the “personal” realm… be kind to others, respect others who post here, and don’t get confrontational on a personal level. Not too much to ask, and we ask that of everyone who posts here.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Carole, I’m completely lost here. I wasn’t trying to get personal, I was just wondering if Kindred was speaking to some particular area such as homeschooling or dating or raising teens. I just couldn’t tell what she was getting at. I always read and re-read before I post. All my comments today have from my perspective been both gentle and humble and I am seeking peace, not an argument. For the life of me, I can’t see anything in what I’ve said that has been disrespectful or belligerent.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Hi Charlie,
You said: “Dennis, please, do tell all…” What are you referring to?
September 16th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I would encourage you to go back and re-read your comments. Some of them have seemed offensive, which is why I am encouraging the read and re-read method. I’m not sure if that was your intent, as I don’t know you. I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but when one keeps having to clarify what one is trying to communicate, maybe a closer look at said communication should take place.
I have left you at least three comments here on this thread regarding how your comments are coming across to others and it seems as if I was completely ignored, at least not acknowledged. That kind of makes me start thinking that you may not realize or may not care how you come across or are perceived by others.
I am all for current SGMer’s (including pastors/leaders/members) and ex SGMer’s to dialogue together, but we must remain respectful and kind towards one another.
September 17th, 2009 at 12:46 am
I have read them and I have re-read them. I’d encourage you to do the same.
Leaver got what I was trying to say. So did Jiggler.
I do emphatically care how I’m coming across. I didn’t ignore your posts about reading and re-reading. I took them very much to heart and re-doubled my efforts to be humble, gentle and honest in my comments. I am completely confused by your response.
Since it appears that there is NOTHING I can say that won’t be misinterpreted (deliberately, maybe?), I guess I should just take my toys and go home. Sorry for the trouble….
September 17th, 2009 at 8:28 am
The Missus… I’m not trying to offend you. But when I see these kinds of phrases directed to someone personally, I feel it’s my responsibility to step in and remind everyone of the rules.
Maybe Leaver and Jiggler “get” your kind of communication style… many others didn’t, including me. I said to you in an earlier comment that there are a lot of wounded people here, hurt and sinned against in grievous ways by the leaders/pastors of the organization you represent.
I’m only asking of you what has been asked of everyone here.
BTW… your comment “Since it appears that there is NOTHING I can say that won’t be misinterpreted (deliberately, maybe?), I guess I should just take my toys and go home. Sorry for the trouble….” is an example of the type of comments I am talking about.
September 17th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Thanks Carole-
I agree.
I think the comment you referenced above is tell-tale and quite possibly revelatory of an attitude.
That’s what I’ve seen in the comments posted by Missus. An attitude. It comes across to me as “let me “kindly” tell you you’re wrong”.
I did notice that some of my questions weren’t addressed. That tends to support my experience that SGM folks will talk only about what they want to talk about and point out what their view is with their evidence to support it but will either ignore or get frustrated and walk away from issues they don’t agree with.
This is why I believe true “change” in the church is sketch.
It’s interesting to me that folks on this site don’t seem to be saying that the SGM followers who come on here are wrong in their perspective that they have been treated fairly and kindly by SGM folks. We are just trying to point out that this has not been everyone’s experience and that there is a problem in SGM leadership facing this. But, it also seems to me that SGM followers who come on here are trying to say that our perspective is wrong and untrue. Some are more politically correct in trying hush us, but the attitude is the same.
Just my thought.
September 17th, 2009 at 9:02 am
BTW-
Jiggler, I love your humor.
I wish I could figure out who you are!! I wouldn’t crack on you!!!!
September 17th, 2009 at 10:14 am
I think one of the most common replies coming from many of the pastoral staff when confronted is, “Perhaps you would be happier somewhere else.” Would it be right for a husband or wife to say that to each other when a disagreement came up? Some pastors would rather bid you “bon voyage”, rather than working through a problem. Especially if you have continunal questions that need resolve. Pastors much prefer “yes men” (and “yes women”). As long as we see things their way, everything will be ok. “Just keep quiet and SUBMIT to the authority here, Bub!”
September 17th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
On a bit of a lighter note, the jiggler has learned that a certain ex senior pastor of a sgm church is currently offering advanced training out of his home. This training is purported to be something along the lines of how to deal with Mormons. Can anyone confirm or deny?
I.G.O. – the jiggler is amused because your comment about cracking on the jiggler seemed to imply that said cracking would in some way be possible should you ever find yourself in face to face with the jiggler. The jiggler is the subject and therefore always does the cracking. The jiggler is never the object.
The smokin’ hot wife is coming, the jiggler must go….
September 18th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Dennis–good point about the marriage analogy, although a marriage is a covenant between two people, whereas our relationship with the Church is with the whole body of Christ, sometimes it is OK for a pastor to encourage a person to try another church, since we are all one in Christ.
That said, he can ONLY say that when he discerns, in love, that another church might be a better fit for his beloved congregant, and I am well aware that is not the situation you are discussing.
Speaking of different churches, I heard that the attendance at the Summit, G.Emer-on’s regional men’s meeting, is down bigtime this weekend.
Do you think that is finances only? Or is something else going on?
http://www.sgmidatlantic.com/t.....eakers.htm
Jiggler, 9/16, 5:42–dang near fell off the chair laughing.
September 18th, 2009 at 9:46 am
RT posted!
September 18th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Hi RT,
You said: “He can ONLY say that when he discerns, in love, that another church might be a better fit for his beloved congregant.”
In the New Testament, there was one church and one “fit” – yes, one size fits all. The church is not a marketable product, like many have made it today. There is one Lord, and one faith. There was no shopping for the right church. For example, I hear people talking today about looking for a church that has a good youth group for their kids. Some are looking for a church with “contemporary” worship, while others want only hymnal type songs. Some churches offer 2 services to accomodate both! “Well isn’t that special!”
September 18th, 2009 at 10:07 am
It is my understanding that 340 men will be attending the Summit, the men’s conference. Is that less than normal? Although I have no objective evidence, I think 340 is a pretty good number based on past experience. Thoughts?
Since Grace Community Church (Mooresville, NC) church is no longer in existence, it is 7 churches, not the advertised 8 that is mentioned in the link that RT provided above. So, the average from each church is 49 men (rounded up)from ages 13 and up. Maybe that is a little skimpy, but the economic downturn has spilled into everything–for sure.
September 18th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Jiggler-
Okay, no cracking. I would never “attempt to assault you over your rude comments” as you mentioned above folks had done.
My bad!
I am aware that your cat-like reflexes would make any attempts futile anyway!
As far as what you mentioned about the home meetings above, I heard the same thing. To be held in said ex-pastors lavish basement, I understand. Important stuff, dealing with Mormons. I know I run into that scenario almost daily.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
The jiggler thinks it would be much more profitable for him to teach classes on how to effectively share your faith inside an sgm church. The jiggler would sign up for that.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Hi Jim!
So Dennis, what is the practical outworking of what you posted? The church closest to your house is the one? The first one you visit in a town? I don’t understand. If you have teens, why would you seek to worship and serve a church without a strong youth program, if all congregations are the Body?
I COMPLETELY agree we are one in Christ, that is one of my biggest rants against SGM, they see themselves as very separate and very superior to the rest of us lesser reformed/evangelical/charismatics.
But practically, on Sunday at 9, where do you decide which direction to drive in? And what happens if you want to worship with a group of brothers/sisters three blocks away instead of staying where you are.
This is something that has always puzzled me about SGM. SGM is the same as 1st Baptist which is just the same as 3rd Pres which is like Wesley Methodist–gatherings of the faithful. Leaving SGM to join in worship with others = a non issue.
Now, the angst and hurt DEFIINITELY is, and must be addressed, repented, forgiven.
Gotta run.
September 19th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Hi Guys,
I don’t know if this is the right place to post this question, so Jim, please feel free to move it.
It’s sort of a theological question. I’ve been at my church for the past 4 years now. I haven’t joined for a couple of reasons but I am involved heavily in my home group, do some service there and have very deep relationships there. In part I have not joined because I think I have something stuck in my crawl (or where ever that saying gets things stuck) about churches requiring you to do something the bible never requires. This is where my question comes in. Over the years I have heard MANY sermons (but not at this church) on why church membership should be important. But I still can’t seem to find any where in the New Testament where a “sign on the dotted line” is commanded or even given as an example. Would someone here please (kindly if you would) share with me some scripture that I may be missing out on, to convince me that signing on the dotted line (so to speak) is not merely a man made thing?
This is a very sensitive subject for me right now. There is a church leadership retreat happening right now that I have been banned from going on because I am not an official member, though they say they want me and my gifts, personality to help the hurting (I know, it’s hard to believe from those of you who only read my postings), and they wish I could be there but I can’t because I am not a member. It doesn’t help that my boyfriend, who is also not a member and who has been at the church a shorter period of time, HAS been allowed to go. So please go easy if you would.
I truly WANT to be convinced that “signing on the dotted line” is somewhere in the bible because THEN I could do so freely and it would make my life a whole lot easier. But for now, I believe it is a man made regulation for easier administrative duties. (Which I understand. Especially as I am going in for an interview on Monday to WORK for this church.) But something inside of me is just saying that it is a man made requirement and after being made free from so many man made things that I THOUGHT were good and healthy but turned out were not, I don’t want to backtrack again.
Thank you,
Stunned
September 19th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Stunned,
Your truth detector does NOT need recalculated. You are absolutely right about joining a “church” and signing any “membership covenant agreement.”
You become a member of the church when you are born from above–period. Anything additional is optional and based on tradition at best and a way to control at worst.
Abba is perfectly capable of guiding you into all truth, and anything that is not of faith is sin. Don’t do it merely to conform and be acceptable to a group. History frowns on that.
So there you go–advise from an old-timer and seven “churches” later, over forty year, which means absolutely nothing, unless it’s true. Ultimately, HE will guide you.
September 19th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Stunned,
Good question. I get things stuck in my craw too. I asked my doctor to just remove the darned thing, and he just looked at me kinda funny.
Here’s the situation as I see it. The way we “do church” bares little resemblance to the NT church. You won’t find membership, sr pastors, tithes, buildings, paid staff, or a multitude of other things that we consider normal in the NT. This is where we find ourselves in the 21st century. A pragmatic business model determines how things are done.
The case is made that the NT does not forbid this, therefore there is liberty. I personally think that 1 Cor 14 is descriptive AND prescriptive, but this is the minority view today.
People want a paid, full-time staff. They want to meet in a comfortable building. They want a good worship team, and they want to hear a good sermon. When they’re in the hospital, they expect a visit from the pastor.
If they way we “do church” doesn’t violate your conscience, and you’re ok with the pragmatic model, then I’d jump in with both feet. Membership is no more or less Biblical than everything else we do on Sunday morning.
I would carefully examine the document, and ensure that you aren’t agreeing to stipulations that could lead to bondage.
September 19th, 2009 at 11:59 am
Well, said Jim.
September 19th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
GD from SGM and Jim:
GD, thank you so much for taking the time to respond. What you said is something that I find my spirit (is it the Holy Spiriti inside of me dare I say?) was in total agreemtn with you. Your words remind me of a quote I just found the other day. It is by that great theologian, Steve Jobs. “Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of other’s opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, …have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
Jim, I also appreciate your words. Though they seem to say something very different from what GD said (though not in disagreement with), most of what you said also resonated with me. I am tempted to such freedom from worry and freedom to “belong” by simply signing. I don’t actually agree with everything in their statement but after talking with people about it I know there is the things that are “essential” and non-essentials and it is the essentials I agree on. I hadn’t seen my own possible conviction about not buying into man made things as a bondage in itself until I read what you wrote. (Yes, Jim, I know you didn’t seem to say that, but it triggered something in me and made me think of it so for that I thank you.)
I will continue to pray about this and appreciate the freedom in Christ you have both offered me.
I have only been part of two churchs before this one. (That’s in a 43 year time period, but please, GD, continue to think of me as someone younger than you. I like it.) The church I grew up in and my old still beloved in some ways, SGM church.
In my childhood church I didn’t join because in my conscience I couldn’t agree to all of their theology. (I apparently was advanced for being a little kid.) But I was still fully accepted there, served on many committees, was part of worship, everything. I would say that it helped that my dad was an elder and my mother a beloved bible study teacher but I know that church well enough that EVERYONE was accepted and treasured. But my beloved minister spent more time during sermons quoting other Christians or theologians than he did the bible.
So at 19 I found this new church that preached THE BIBLE!!!!! Maybe once in a great while they may quote someone else but it was the bible and Jesus and God and it was awesome. I never joined there either, because at the time I began they didn’t have “membership” (and I still wouldn’t have known how I felt about “signing on the dotted line”). They had teachings that later on became “new members’ classes” and eventually my name was just put on the members list when they created a “member’s list”. (This was my old SGM church.)
So actually in my 43 years I have never “joined” a church though I’ve been on the roles of 3 and very involved in all 3.
Thanks again for giving me your thoughts. This is hard and it helps having brothers and sisters to walk this through with.
Ps. I have to say it’s sort of ironic that later on that my SGM church ended up quoting other men more than they did the bible even more than my childhood church had.
September 19th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Stunned,
I agree with GD, but have resigned myself to the fact that most Americans are quite content with the 21st Century model. “We’ve always done it this way….”
…err, not really
September 19th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
BTW, Jim, your opening line of “Doc, can you remove this” gave me a laugh. Pretty remarkable as tears were still coming out of my eyes over this whole issue.
Dear God, thank you for giving us laughter!!!! If only I could enjoy being part of, serving in, loving a church without the other icky stuff. Also pray for me about going on staff with this church (15 hours a week). I need work, and wonder if this is God’s way of giving me a voice there. Right now I feel I don’t have much of a voice as I feel they will think I am just spurting sour grapes after being rejected about this weekend. I like these people and pray that if what I am seeing is meant to be said, He positions me to be able to do so.(Just minor things but I feel God prompting me to say somehting about it a la the Canary in the mines.)
Thanks again for the laughs!
September 19th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Stunned,
Just catching up on my blog reading. Can I ask, why would they not allow you to go to the retreat without “signing”, but will consider you for employment, though you are not a member?
I have one thing to add: You go girl! Sounds like you really love God’s saints. Do all that you do as though unto the Lord. Makes it simple.
September 19th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Oh Canary, I felt like you all day long yesterday and for the past week or so. It’s like I’m seeing some minor bells going off and trying to “warn” others about what I see but it ain’t seeming to be heeded. (And when I say others I mean only my boyfriend who has patiently put up with my words.) I think it’s a bit nutty that they need people to be on this team, the training starts today but the new members weekend is in three weeks and since I’m not yet a member I have to wait one more year to start on this team that supposedly needs people. Silly bureacracy. And yes, it seems rather strange that they were contacting me about working for the church yet I can’t begin the training for this other team. Silly for sure. (And yes, if I do end up working for the church I will see to it that I point out that we need better planning. Ei. if you’re going to force people to join then plan the joining weekend three weeks BEFORE the training weekend and not visa versa.)
September 19th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Seems weird he could go and not you, Stunned. That makes no sense. Did they have a rationale for that one?
Often, a church will hire someone to work for them that is not a member. Why not? If it is a non-ministerial position, if it is an admin or finanacial or clerical, one would not have to be a member.
Membership is not a ‘biblical’ concept, since we are one in Christ upon our statement of belief in Lordship of Christ, and our belief in his finished work.
However, in the modern world, (and this is really really pitiful), church insurance companies require membership of congregants who are going to be placed in positions of leadership, particularly with children. Membership adds a layer of ‘accountability.’ To join a church, one must usually meet with elders and give ‘proof’ of their faith in Christ. Churches are coming under stupid and evil lawsuits more and more, and need to protect themselves. That is truly pitiful.
I dunno. I’m kind of in the middle on this one.
Perhaps the question should be, “What is wrong with joining a church? How could it be construed as disobedience to our Saviour to do so?”
The Word never tells us that a church owned a building. Or had a tutoring ministry. Or hired a secretary. Or hired an office administrator. But we wouldn’t fuss at those.
Is this an issue that should simply be one of conscience: if you feel strongly led not to join, don’t? (and forfeit leadership opportunities or nursery service, which seems to me an awesome thing!!!) If you don’t have a problem with it, join?
Stunned, this is probably one of the ways you are called to help them! Organization!
That said, membership is simply joining formally with a body of believers. I never got the signing a covenant like SGM’s, waayyyyyyy too involved.
You are bright confident woman, I love your posts–simply let your yes by yes, your no be no, and smile alot. Whether you join or not.
September 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
“Simply let your yes be yes, and your no be no, and smile alot.”
LOL…Great advice in ALL things! :-)
September 20th, 2009 at 11:50 am
If they way we “do church” doesn’t violate your conscience, and you’re ok with the pragmatic model, then I’d jump in with both feet. Membership is no more or less Biblical than everything else we do on Sunday morning.
I would carefully examine the document, and ensure that you aren’t agreeing to stipulations that could lead to bondage.
I thought Jim’s words needed repeating. Stunned, if your conscience is keeping you from signing on the dotted line, then perhaps other things going on around you are also causing you such concern. If you can bear with those things out of love for the brethren (and your boyfriend!), becoming a member isn’t that big of an issue (unless you are signing away important rights – that is another matter!).
There is a reason that the canary dies first while in the mine. The air is bad! If it is that kind of situation, then you will continue to be disturbed if you are surrounded by a lot of stinky air that keeps growing and growing (like leaven) until your faith can’t breath anymore. If that is not the case, it could be that you are being asked to give away some of your freedom in order to join this church. We all give up bits of our freedom when love is involved (family events, time, sleep, etc.), and when we want an orderly society (driver’s license, stop signs, etc.). Order is important in a group situation.
However, and this is a big however, being required to give up your freedom in Christ…well, it is time to draw a line in the sand. How you worship, who you “confess” to,
following authority outside of God’s limits placed on man, where you live, who you marry…these are decisions that YOU must make. If a church infringes on your rights as an individual in Christ, that is a serious matter that could jeopardize your faith.
So ask the Lord which way the wind blows. Is it that the church just wants some order established to better serve the saints, or do the leaders desire to control the outcome of every life and situation? It was obvious in the church I left that the need to control was the issue. It will become obvious to you as well.
I hope this helps some. It just occurred to me this morning. Things aren’t always as black and white as we think. Motives can be subtle. Or they can be simple. I’m sure the Lord will show you which way to go, Stunned. Let us know what happens!
September 21st, 2009 at 9:06 am
Stunned wrote:
I truly WANT to be convinced that “signing on the dotted line” is somewhere in the bible because THEN I could do so freely and it would make my life a whole lot easier.
Me: Nope, not in the Bible anywhere. It seems alot of churches think they are like the old American Express ad slogan – “Membership has its privligages”