Comments on: Quick note… http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/ a safe haven Tue, 22 May 2012 14:02:20 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13540 Jim Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:10:06 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13540 <p>From Frank Viola-</p> <p><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: Verdana,Helvetica,Arial;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Dear Friends, I’m writing this note with great thankfulness. There are a number of things I want to report and for which I want to give the Lord praise. First, thank you all so much for supporting the new book, “Finding Organic Church.” The book hit #12 on Amazon.com (that’s #12 out of 7 million books!) and it was the #2 book in the Christianity section the day it launched. Interest in the book is still very strong, and people and groups are emailing us with great reports on how they are being benefited by it. A very sincere “thanks” to all of you who made the effort to help the book on September 1st.</span></span></span> <!--EndFragment--></p> From Frank Viola-

Dear Friends,
I’m writing this note with great thankfulness. There are a number of things I want to report and for which I want to give the Lord praise.
First, thank you all so much for supporting the new book, “Finding Organic Church.” The book hit #12 on Amazon.com (that’s #12 out of 7 million books!) and it was the #2 book in the Christianity section the day it launched. Interest in the book is still very strong, and people and groups are emailing us with great reports on how they are being benefited by it.
A very sincere “thanks” to all of you who made the effort to help the book on September 1st.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13239 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:49:37 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13239 May Abba draw us deeper into Himself, where the noise isn't so loud and distracting, the place where our hands aren't grabbing, but instead open, void of anxiety and  fully trusting. May Abba draw us deeper into Himself, where the noise isn’t so loud and distracting, the place where our hands aren’t grabbing, but instead open, void of anxiety and  fully trusting.

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13238 Stunned Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:38:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13238 Paul, up on Sept 11, at 1:09am you quoted me quoting you. You then said, "I was using a term “easy believism” (not found in the Bible- either Greek or Hebrew) as referring to the greasy grace mentality that some use by saying “I can sin, it’s okay, God’ll forgive me” That is the theology you’ll see on Robert Tilton type televangelist stuff. That make any more sense?" Errr, ah, it makes sense but I wouldn't say it makes any more sense as I wasn't confused at all in the first place. But thanks for trying to clarify for me in case I was. Btw, "Hi Carole!!!!!" Paul, up on Sept 11, at 1:09am you quoted me quoting you. You then said, “I was using a term “easy believism” (not found in the Bible- either Greek or Hebrew) as referring to the greasy grace mentality that some use by saying “I can sin, it’s okay, God’ll forgive me” That is the theology you’ll see on Robert Tilton type televangelist stuff. That make any more sense?”

Errr, ah, it makes sense but I wouldn’t say it makes any more sense as I wasn’t confused at all in the first place. But thanks for trying to clarify for me in case I was.

Btw, “Hi Carole!!!!!”

]]> By: Stunned http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13236 Stunned Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:33:56 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13236 GD said, "The process is ongoing, but now the views of others isn’t as threatening and much more considered." GD, that is such a wonderful place to be. I think God is moving me more in that direction at the moment. Thanks for sharing and being an encouragement. GD said, “The process is ongoing, but now the views of others isn’t as threatening and much more considered.”

GD, that is such a wonderful place to be. I think God is moving me more in that direction at the moment. Thanks for sharing and being an encouragement.

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13222 Paul Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:55:28 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13222 Jim told me that my apology to Viola and Barna was insufficient. I will take him at his word. If they are reading this, I ask them to forgive me for lumping them in with the Heretics at Tentmakers. In my minute understanding of websites, if I see something on a web site , I think it means that the people on the sidebars are somehow connected to the website owner. I was wrong. I know nothing of Viola and Barna's teachings and was wrong to toss the heretic word. Frank and George, please forgive me. I thought since Tentmakers was endorsing their book "Pagan Christianity" they were all in bed together. I was wrong. I think Viola and Barna would not want to be associated with Tentmakers. Now, on the Tentmakers..... different story, anyone that teaches that there is no Hell and Satan will be rejoicing in front of the throne with Adolf Hitler and EVERYONE in all of history is not only deceived but teaching the doctrine of demons. And one more time - Frank and George, if you are out there, I was wrong to quickly slam you without knowing where you were coming from. It was a "Guilty by Association" thing. You can't help it if Tentmakers endorses your books. If you are truly teaching people the importance of gathering together in home churches, as long as they are Christ centered and He is glorified, more power to you.  Jim told me that my apology to Viola and Barna was insufficient. I will take him at his word.
If they are reading this, I ask them to forgive me for lumping them in with the Heretics at Tentmakers. In my minute understanding of websites, if I see something on a web site , I think it means that the people on the sidebars are somehow connected to the website owner. I was wrong. I know nothing of Viola and Barna’s teachings and was wrong to toss the heretic word. Frank and George, please forgive me. I thought since Tentmakers was endorsing their book “Pagan Christianity” they were all in bed together. I was wrong. I think Viola and Barna would not want to be associated with Tentmakers.
Now, on the Tentmakers….. different story, anyone that teaches that there is no Hell and Satan will be rejoicing in front of the throne with Adolf Hitler and EVERYONE in all of history is not only deceived but teaching the doctrine of demons.
And one more time – Frank and George, if you are out there, I was wrong to quickly slam you without knowing where you were coming from. It was a “Guilty by Association” thing. You can’t help it if Tentmakers endorses your books. If you are truly teaching people the importance of gathering together in home churches, as long as they are Christ centered and He is glorified, more power to you. 

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13212 Jim Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:38:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13212 <p>Paul,</p> <p>You're applying faulty logic. I could sell any book I wanted on this site with an amazon account. I could also buy in bulk, directly from the publisher, who is in business to sell books.</p> <p>There is nothing any author could do about it, and they would have no idea I was doing it. The authors would not be "affiliated" with me.</p> <p>You owe Barna and Viola an apology. I've read the book-it does not promote universalism.</p> Paul,

You’re applying faulty logic. I could sell any book I wanted on this site with an amazon account. I could also buy in bulk, directly from the publisher, who is in business to sell books.

There is nothing any author could do about it, and they would have no idea I was doing it. The authors would not be “affiliated” with me.

You owe Barna and Viola an apology. I’ve read the book-it does not promote universalism.

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13209 Paul Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:21:41 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13209 http://tentmaker.org/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=144 Jim the link above shows Tentmakers online store, featuring "Pagan Christianity". I first saw Barna and Viola's names on the bottom of their FAQ's page while researching Tentmakers. Someone I know, and love, has fallen into this lie and I have spent alot of time on their site.  (And yes, when asked they do say that Satan will be with all of humanity in Heaven - Christian Universalism). I'll recant that Viola and Barna are Universalists after researching further, and admit that I jumped the gun to label them heretics (although Tentmakers  are) because I saw Tentmakers endorsing their book and selling it in their online bookstore. One has to wonder why Tentmakers would want to endorse anything that might challenge their theology. Have Viola and Barna ever said anything about Tentmaker's love for their material, and tried to distance themselves? Do they even know that Tentmakers uses their book to further their agenda? (Jim, I'll e mail you seperately why I am so passionate on the whole Tentmakers Heresy)   http://tentmaker.org/store/ind.....ductId=144
Jim the link above shows Tentmakers online store, featuring “Pagan Christianity”.
I first saw Barna and Viola’s names on the bottom of their FAQ’s page while researching Tentmakers. Someone I know, and love, has fallen into this lie and I have spent alot of time on their site.  (And yes, when asked they do say that Satan will be with all of humanity in Heaven – Christian Universalism).
I’ll recant that Viola and Barna are Universalists after researching further, and admit that I jumped the gun to label them heretics (although Tentmakers  are) because I saw Tentmakers endorsing their book and selling it in their online bookstore.
One has to wonder why Tentmakers would want to endorse anything that might challenge their theology. Have Viola and Barna ever said anything about Tentmaker’s love for their material, and tried to distance themselves? Do they even know that Tentmakers uses their book to further their agenda?
(Jim, I’ll e mail you seperately why I am so passionate on the whole Tentmakers Heresy)
 

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13203 Jim Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:12:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13203 <p>Paul,</p> <p>In what way are Barna and Viola "affiliated" with tentmakers? Does tentmakers sell or recommend their books, or have you seen an endorsement from Barna/Viola of tentmakers? Is CCEF "affilated" with this blog because I link to them? No.</p> <p>Barna/Viola are not universalists.</p> <p>Please explain the nature of their affiliation. If you've slandered Barna/Viola, please do the right thing and recant.</p> Paul,

In what way are Barna and Viola “affiliated” with tentmakers? Does tentmakers sell or recommend their books, or have you seen an endorsement from Barna/Viola of tentmakers? Is CCEF “affilated” with this blog because I link to them? No.

Barna/Viola are not universalists.

Please explain the nature of their affiliation. If you’ve slandered Barna/Viola, please do the right thing and recant.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13197 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Mon, 14 Sep 2009 12:13:46 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13197 Paul, Frank Viola is my brother in Christ.  His views, like all of our views, may miss the mark on some issues, but do we really want to marginalize him and label him a heretic?   As I am sure you know, John Stott, the esteemed British theologian, rejected the idea of hell before he finally died.  Shall we label him a heretic, or conclude he got that one wrong?  Should we throw his wonderful, rich writings away, or should we view them as we do all men's writings?  Truth doesn't change with the times.  Truth will prevail, and NONE of us can claim that ALL truth flows only through us.  Isn't is easy for us to see our world as us and them.  We are right, and they are not.  When I do that, I can become awfully contentious with those who don't agree with me.  It kind of kills the idea of loving my neighbor as myself.  Calvin had a way of dealing with heretics, by burning them at the stake with green wood to prolong the agony.  Maybe, even he got that one wrong.     Paul,
Frank Viola is my brother in Christ.  His views, like all of our views, may miss the mark on some issues, but do we really want to marginalize him and label him a heretic?
 
As I am sure you know, John Stott, the esteemed British theologian, rejected the idea of hell before he finally died.  Shall we label him a heretic, or conclude he got that one wrong?  Should we throw his wonderful, rich writings away, or should we view them as we do all men’s writings?  Truth doesn’t change with the times.  Truth will prevail, and NONE of us can claim that ALL truth flows only through us.  Isn’t is easy for us to see our world as us and them.  We are right, and they are not.  When I do that, I can become awfully contentious with those who don’t agree with me.  It kind of kills the idea of loving my neighbor as myself.  Calvin had a way of dealing with heretics, by burning them at the stake with green wood to prolong the agony.  Maybe, even he got that one wrong.
 
 

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13195 Paul Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:45:02 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13195 Frank Viola and George Barna!  (Frank Viola’s Organic Church) I remember seeing those names somewhere and then it hit me. They are affiliated with Tentmakers.org http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/23.html A delightful little group that teaches that there is no hell and Satan will join us in Heaven worshiping God. So,<cite>Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM,</cite> <cite><strong><em>I guess that answers your question why I feel the need to be right. </em></strong></cite> <cite><strong><em>When such heresy is being taught, it needs to be exposed. Unless you are an adherant to such heresy.</em></strong> </cite> Frank Viola and George Barna!  (Frank Viola’s Organic Church)
I remember seeing those names somewhere and then it hit me.
They are affiliated with Tentmakers.org
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/23.html
A delightful little group that teaches that there is no hell and Satan will join us in Heaven worshiping God.
So,Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM,
I guess that answers your question why I feel the need to be right.

When such heresy is being taught, it needs to be exposed. Unless you are an adherant to such heresy.

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13188 Paul Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:18:55 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13188 I was a die hard Arminian for 20 years. Then I read Paul's road to Damascus story ( I have read it many times before) and it hit me - Paul never attended a Billy Graham Crusade. He was not in a gutter stoned out of his mind. He wasn't hung over feeling guilty. He wasn't repentant about his hatred of Jesus and His followers. He was on his way to kill followers of Jesus, and suddenly Jesus knocks him off his horse and says "get up, you are mine". I guess you might consider that "choice" in that Paul could have said "up yours, I'm off to kill your followers", but it looks to me as if Paul is not given any choice in the matter. Then I began to see a pattern -"Peter, drop your nets, come follow me" "Moses, I've chosen you" Israel is God's chosen people. At the end though, CS Lewis, and Charles Spurgeon are both side by side at the throne worshiping the Lamb who was slain. I was a die hard Arminian for 20 years. Then I read Paul’s road to Damascus story ( I have read it many times before) and it hit me – Paul never attended a Billy Graham Crusade. He was not in a gutter stoned out of his mind. He wasn’t hung over feeling guilty. He wasn’t repentant about his hatred of Jesus and His followers. He was on his way to kill followers of Jesus, and suddenly Jesus knocks him off his horse and says “get up, you are mine”. I guess you might consider that “choice” in that Paul could have said “up yours, I’m off to kill your followers”, but it looks to me as if Paul is not given any choice in the matter. Then I began to see a pattern -”Peter, drop your nets, come follow me” “Moses, I’ve chosen you” Israel is God’s chosen people.
At the end though, CS Lewis, and Charles Spurgeon are both side by side at the throne worshiping the Lamb who was slain.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13190 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:40:43 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13190 Paul, It was <strong>not</strong> directed at you.  The person it was directed to knows.  But since you brought it up, how are you doing with the need to win or be right? Paul, It was not directed at you.  The person it was directed to knows.  But since you brought it up, how are you doing with the need to win or be right?

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13189 Paul Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:22:36 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13189 <cite>Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM</cite> <a href="#comment-13184" rel="nofollow">September 13th, 2009 at 8:58 am</a> Awe, not needing to win or be right.  I am cheering for you, my friend.   Who was this directed at? And what does it mean? Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM
September 13th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Awe, not needing to win or be right.  I am cheering for you, my friend.
 
Who was this directed at? And what does it mean?

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13181 Paul Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:49:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13181 I finally got an answer from Gary Amirault (info@tentmaker.org) about his theological background and this is the response he gave me - "Act 4:13  Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus." I was then directed to videos at this site <a href="http://www.tentmaker.org/video/givingglory/ggindex.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.tentmaker.org/video/givingglory/ggindex.htm</a> Tentmakerrs are a group of a couple of guys that believe that God speaks to people and they don't need any theological training. Where has this "enlightenment led them? They believe that "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee includes Adolf Hitler and Satan. So, do you agree with these men who follow what "the spirit" tells them or do you listen to men that have spent their lives studying the ancient writings to compare with what we have today. Follow a fool and you'll get what you paid for. All men are fallible, does that mean we don't listen to anyone? Just follow the feelings? No, we read and compare and ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. We don't toss everyone out because they are fallible. If that were true, you wouldn't be on SGM Refuge because Jim is close to fallible, but only by a hair. I love Tozer, CS Lewis and Billy Graham, Wesley, Whitefield, (all non reformed Arminians) as well as John Owen, John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, DA Carson, Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney and JI Packer. All Reformed. Looking forward to your response if mine makes it through moderation. I finally got an answer from Gary Amirault (info@tentmaker.org) about his theological background and this is the response he gave me – “Act 4:13  Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived
that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took
knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”
I was then directed to videos at this site
http://www.tentmaker.org/video.....gindex.htm
Tentmakerrs are a group of a couple of guys that believe that God speaks to people and they don’t need any theological training. Where has this “enlightenment led them?
They believe that “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee includes Adolf Hitler and Satan. So, do you agree with these men who follow what “the spirit” tells them or do you listen to men that have spent their lives studying the ancient writings to compare with what we have today.
Follow a fool and you’ll get what you paid for. All men are fallible, does that mean we don’t listen to anyone? Just follow the feelings? No, we read and compare and ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. We don’t toss everyone out because they are fallible. If that were true, you wouldn’t be on SGM Refuge because Jim is close to fallible, but only by a hair.
I love Tozer, CS Lewis and Billy Graham, Wesley, Whitefield, (all non reformed Arminians) as well as John Owen, John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, DA Carson, Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney and JI Packer. All Reformed.
Looking forward to your response if mine makes it through moderation.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13184 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Sun, 13 Sep 2009 12:58:08 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13184 Awe, not needing to win or be right.  I am cheering for you, my friend. Awe, not needing to win or be right.  I am cheering for you, my friend.

]]> By: Carole http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13173 Carole Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:44:17 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13173 <p>Hi Acme!</p> <p>By Golly, you were in the spam file!  Thanks for letting us know.  Sorry about that, I don't know how that happened, as you are certainly NOT spam!  I will have to be more diligent in the future to check that file!!</p> <p>Your comments are now on the blog!</p> Hi Acme!

By Golly, you were in the spam file!  Thanks for letting us know.  Sorry about that, I don’t know how that happened, as you are certainly NOT spam!  I will have to be more diligent in the future to check that file!!

Your comments are now on the blog!

]]> By: acme http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13172 acme Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:32:08 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13172 BTW, no response from CLC yet. BTW, no response from CLC yet.

]]> By: acme http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13171 acme Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:30:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13171 Hey, Jim or Carol I posted three comments last week that never showed up on the blog--including one that asked if I were still lost in moderation.  Could y'all check the spam/acme filter? Hey, Jim or Carol
I posted three comments last week that never showed up on the blog–including one that asked if I were still lost in moderation.  Could y’all check the spam/acme filter?

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13170 Jim Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:10:03 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13170 <p>Paul,</p> <p>I'm personally grateful to God for scholars.</p> <p>"<em>don't be so sixties</em>", is pretty funny. :)</p> Paul,

I’m personally grateful to God for scholars.

“don’t be so sixties“, is pretty funny. :)

]]> By: Paul http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/30/quick-note/#comment-13168 Paul Sat, 12 Sep 2009 12:10:29 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=289#comment-13168 For those that still believe that theologians are not necessary one only needs to go to websites like http://www.brojed.org/contents.html and http://www.tentmaker.org/ to see that all it takes is a twisting of a verse here or there and you have something that tickles the ears of the listener because it is more pallitable than the fact that Jesus said "Narrow is the way". On one extreme  you have Jed Smock saying that Christians are sinless, and anyone that sins is not a Christian and on the other hand is a new cult call Tentmakers that portrays God as a gentle old grandpa in a rocking chair that will forgive everyone in the end, Adolf Hitler and even Satan because of the verse that says "every knee will bow" It is foolish to say that we don't need the DA Carson, Spurgeons, Matthew Henry's, R.C. Sprouls,J.I.Packers  etc's, and that we can sit with our Bible open and the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the truth. Joseph Smith said that and now we have the Book of Mormon. Don't be so sixties in your disdain for authority and teaching. Much can be learned from men that have poured their lives into study. We don't all have time to become Greek or Hebrew scholars and we can thank God that He has gifted some to spend their lives investigating so that we could benefit from their knowledge. The Holy Spirit is our guide to help us discern truth from a lie as we peruse through the findings. It is all part of abeing a Berean. We should always take what we have back to scripture to see if it lines up and God is glorified. For those that still believe that theologians are not necessary one only needs to go to websites like http://www.brojed.org/contents.html and http://www.tentmaker.org/ to see that all it takes is a twisting of a verse here or there and you have something that tickles the ears of the listener because it is more pallitable than the fact that Jesus said “Narrow is the way”. On one extreme  you have Jed Smock saying that Christians are sinless, and anyone that sins is not a Christian and on the other hand is a new cult call Tentmakers that portrays God as a gentle old grandpa in a rocking chair that will forgive everyone in the end, Adolf Hitler and even Satan because of the verse that says “every knee will bow” It is foolish to say that we don’t need the DA Carson, Spurgeons, Matthew Henry’s, R.C. Sprouls,J.I.Packers  etc’s, and that we can sit with our Bible open and the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the truth. Joseph Smith said that and now we have the Book of Mormon.
Don’t be so sixties in your disdain for authority and teaching. Much can be learned from men that have poured their lives into study. We don’t all have time to become Greek or Hebrew scholars and we can thank God that He has gifted some to spend their lives investigating so that we could benefit from their knowledge. The Holy Spirit is our guide to help us discern truth from a lie as we peruse through the findings.
It is all part of abeing a Berean. We should always take what we have back to scripture to see if it lines up and God is glorified.

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