Aug
30
1) We tried to drum up interest in a little letter writing campaign a while back. Some who participated have sent me positive reports. It’s not too late to join in. jim@sgmrefuge.com
2) I think that Frank Viola’s Organic Church books are helpful. not perfect, but helpful. I strongly disagree with the general premise of his last book, From Eternity to Here, but that wasn’t an Organic Church book. His next book is “Finding Organic Church: A Comprehensive Guide to Starting and Sustaining Authentic Christian Communities”. Frank has requested that everyone who is interested order from Amazon on September 1, as this boosts Amazon ratings, drawing attention to the topic. I’m in…
Jim, would you say you are in an “organic” church setting now? I haven’t read any of his books. Are organic churches different from “house” churches?
We are among the 5 million that have left the building….
grateful to be out…but a bit lonely….
We too are among the 5 million who left the building. We too are so very grateful to be out and “free!” We tried the “house church” thing and found it to be just a smaller version of the IC. I am certain that there are many very good house/organic churches, but we haven’t found one. And lonely, I can remember feeling lonely in the foyer of our “church” with literally hundreds of people in there–It was a huge foyer.
Having real relationship with people isn’t the same as being around lots of people. How many times have we been in the “church” building and not had anything resembling relationship, just being with lots of others. I think what we’ve made out of the “church” in our culture is a travesty! The paid staff and the laity divide, the whole tithing thing, and the millions and millions of dollars poured into the coffers of the IC with the almost total disregard for the poor among us. IMHO, it is all a far cry from what I read in His word and what the LIVING WORD speaks into my heart.
Singing cook-long time no see. Organic/simple/house all mean the same thing.
I prefer beach church
I did a couple of posts a while back, where I ‘outed’ myself as an organic church guy. I kept this off of the blog for over a year, as I really don’t like labels. Human nature loves to broad brush, and I don’t want to be lumped in a with a freaky group that meets in a home in Michigan, or where-ever..
GD-Many home churches are mini IC’s, which is sad. I look forward to reading Viola’s new book, which is his ‘how to’ manual.
I like the beach church idea too.
Eww, I am not a fan of Viola, his statements about the reformation, among others, show an extrememe lack of knowledge of history and context, and makes it seem that he is just trying to justify what he does and call it new testament style to make it okay.
Jim,
Yes, the “beach church” would work!
Now jiggler will show up and tell me he invented beach church
As usual, Jim is close but NO CIGAR!
The jiggler did not invent the beach church, the jiggler invented Sovereign Beach Ministries (SBM) a church planting and oversight organization which governs all beach churches.
The jiggler will consider letting you form a new beach church providing you are prepared to offer the following to the jiggler:
1. Your mind.
2. Your money.
3. Your wife. (you women didn’t think you could join by yourself did you?)
4. Your children.
5. Your career.
6. Your extended family.
Additionally you must agree to only read books by Rebecca Wells and listen to music written, composed and performed by Jimmy Buffett.
It’s a deal, you should take it. Contact the jiggler today.
(pay no attention to the slanderous bs on the SBM Refuge blog. Nothing but a bunch of quitters, commies and crybabies…)
\m/ >.< \m/
sic semper tyrannis
Jiggler speaks the truth. He invented SBM along with a guy named … Sea Jay … sorry … <dodging thrown refuse> …
However, I was one of those there at the very beginning, a part of PBI – People at the Beach Intentionally. SBM broke off, I mean started, over doctrine issues – whether one should be concerned with UV ratings, which beaches were better, how soon after eating one could get in the water, etc.
Sea Jay is the voice and pen-wielding hand of PBI/SBM. He is a prolific writer whose books include: Humility or Please Pastor, Don’t Wear Spandex!; Worldliness or Why People with Motorboats are Heretics; The Beach Centered Life; and Not Even a Hint – Why I Don’t Use Any Tanning Lotion.
Aloha!
This thread is funny. Thanks for the laughs!
Sorry, I have to play Tony Reali on Pardon The Interruption (on ESPN), who informs hosts Michael Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser about their errors or oversights at the end of the show.
Jiggler,
You forgot these items:
1. Your grace-filled walk with Christ
2. Your love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (i.e., fruit of the Holy Spirit)
3. Your spiritual gifts
4. Your free will and freedom of choice
5. Your self-esteem (sorry, I said a bad word)
6. Your social life
7. Your future plans
I’m sure there are others!
Newlywndd,
You forgot, “Why Beach Groups?”
I don’t want to appear dumb but what is IC?
No, for real you guys, my dad started that church.
But I think Josh Harris will be comming with his shovel and his new book, dug down deep. I wonder if we dig deep enough, can we start a church in china.
charlie….
Hi Glenn
Jim,
RE:
1) We tried to drum up interest in a little letter writing campaign a while back. Some who participated have sent me positive reports. It’s not too late to join in. jim@sgmrefuge.com
Can you provide a little more detail on “positive reports”?
Thanks.
Well, its been a while, but from my recollection of reading mainly pagan Christianity, (and I looked up some other critiques to reacquaint myself – I think the best review of it that really demonstrates it is by prufrock, halfway down here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f1.....ity-52182/ )
Some of my recollection are that he had a real lack of understanding of what priesthood of all believers means, essentially charging Luther and the reformers with not following it by not getting rid of pastors. Priesthood never was in terms of getting rid of people having specific gifts and roles/offices, priesthood of all believers was found in Exodus 19:6 and they certainly had ordained offices for priests/Levites even though the nation was supposed to be a priesthood. The concept really meant that Christ is our mediator and we don’t have to go through a priest – but it did not preclude the role of pastors – 1 tim 3 and Titus 1 makes this clear
The priesthood of all believers does not preclude certain men from being set apart to office to labor in distinct ways that the rest of the congregation does not. Remember that the priesthood of all believers was found in the Old Testament (Exodus 19.6) and yet God still ordained the sons of Aaron and the Levites to office that not every Israelite had. The concept really means that because Christ is our mediator we all have access to God through him. When you look at certain passages in the New Testament (I Timothy 3. Titus 1, etc.) it is clear that this principle still pertains in the NT.
He also says in Pagan Christianity :
It is no wonder that the so-called Reformation brought very little reform in the way of church practice. [!] (p.61)
And in a footnote on the same page:
The Protestant Reformation was mainly an intellectual movement….it hardly touched ecclesiastical practice. [!]
This is so clearly false I don’t know how one could print it.
He also tended to ignore the culture that the new testament was written to a large degree. He also assume that if something wasn’t mentioned clearly it didn’t happen, without showing the necessity of the other side which wasn’t mentioned either.
Those are some, I will try to give it a read again if you want to let you know some of the other issues. I remember when I read it becoming increasingly annoyed and flabbergasted by the lack of understanding of history, and church history in particular. (And I was a church history major at a secular college, so this is something I know somewhat about and am passionate about).
Square Peg-not online.
Pres-did I mention that I found Frank’s books to contain flaws
He overstates the effects ( or “non effects”) of the reformation on church practice, and you are spot on regarding the culture in which the NT was written. I personally believe that second century Christians were influenced more by Old Covenant practices than they were by paganism.
The problem the IC faces is that they can find no NT justification for the “office” of the paid professional pastor.
I would agree that there is no justification in scripture for a pastor who is ceo of local church, I, like many Presbyterians, do not believe in three offices, but 2 – elder and deacon. however I do believe that there are teaching elders (who are called pastors and are normally paid) and ruling elders. I would argue that 1 cor 12:28 is not about offices in the church but about the foundation of the church, so it is not really relevant to the discussion. I do think that for someone who has gone through 7 years of school to do the job (and I want that for sure) he is worthy of his wages, and in order for the person to be able to focus on their calling, supporting them through the church tithes is right.
I think looking at the NT books it is hard to make a case either way, and we are also dealing with a different time and circumstance. There are not many/any salaried pastors for who it is their full time job in Afghanistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia , and their situations are much closer to the nt situations that the u.s. is. Even now, normally when a new church is started the pastor is not supported by the church, he is supported by the denomination until the church can afford it. The new testament was at the forming of the church, and so established structures were being established – Paul was writing letters and visiting to instruct the group and change it – there was obviously a church existing when Paul wrote timothy and Titus but he still instructed on the offices there because they were in the foundational period. I think to draw to much from practices in scripture instead of principles in scripture (such as workers being worthy of wage and earning their living form the gospel, service being structured and without confusion, etc) is not what we should be doing. What would be better is to look at what the principals where and how they looked after they were worked out by the apostles in the 1st century, but what principles were gleaned and established shortly after, and one was supporting a minister to free them for the work.
I would say that even if you can find no support for the office of paid pastor in the N.T. (which I wouldn’t necessarily agree with, 1 cor 9 being one reason) that there is nothing that prohibits it, and since there is nothing that prohibits it, the questions is if it is a good practice, which I would strongly argue that it is if you can have someone be that position legally (which was a stretch in new testament times) and you can afford to support someone (which also was sometimes a stretch in new testament times). I think that there is a reason that for all of the recorded, established, post apostolic church’s history there has been paid ministers, and there is no real evidence of not having one. The burden of finding NT justification is on those saying we should not have one, not those following an established historical precedent.
Now saying that, the corporate aspect of pastors I find deeply unsettling, and as said beforehand, I believe that a pastor is an elder, equal to the other elders (who are normally lay), who is called to preach, but who does not have any more authority than the others. Having “Senior Pastor, Associate Pastor, Youth Pastor, Pastor in training, etc.” be man made roles, I would say they are not, they are the roles of elders (except maybe in training) which is a biblical role, and the labels are just their funciton/jurisdiciton which is out of convenience/necessity.
Elder is also found many times in the books of Acts, such as 14:23 “Paul and Barnabas had elders elected(or appointed elders) for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.”
This shows an election (or appointment) to an office. Paul met with teh elders when he went to Jerusalem: acts 15:2.
1 tim 5:17 (separate from the qualifications) says 17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.” Showing somewhat their function, directing the affairs, and others who do that and preach and teach (ruling and teaching elders). Titus 1:5 talks about Paul leaving Titus to appoint or elect elders, seems an office to me their as well, why else would they be elected or appointed. 1st Peter 5 says 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers” – telling them to shepherd God’s flock and that they are under their care, serving as overseers, seems an office there as well.
If you read through you find many examples, and Titus and Timothy are the most clear, because those are the passages that are making a clear reference to the structure of church offices in the church, teaching them how to setup churches. The other books of the bible are to churches, normally dealing with specific issues, and it would be expected for them not to include more than a passing reference to offices since that was not pertinent to the discussion.
Pres,
We also see the first “pastors conference” in Acts 20. To me it doesn’t matter if an eldership is an office or a function-elders play a vital role in the life of the church.
I agree with your “two office” view (elder/deacon) but would point out that your two level view of elders is without Biblical merit. Double honor, especially to those who teach, is not grounds for a clergy/laity distinction.
Pres, I was a ruling elder in the PCA and understand fully where you are coming from. I completely remember allowing tradition and “intellectualism” to determine the meaning of scripture without me realizing it.
I was mesmorized with all the writings of R.C. Sprouls, J.I. Packer, James Boice, and the whole bunch of them. They have very well thought out arguments, but flawed, again IMHO because they start out with covenant theology. If you start there, the new covenant is NEVER new, just an improved version of the old. On this side of it, I am saddened that I was so easily fooled.
Pres, please don’t see this as anything other than me just expressing where I was and where I am now. I could be totally wrong. Only HE is truth.
If scripture is used, you will be moderated and it will not be allowed on the site? What’s up with that Jim?
Paul,
Huh?
I’m having offline conversations that are mutually respectful. No one is talking to me like I’m the enemy, except for the occasional nut who doesn’t represent anyone but himself.
No leader in SGM is going to come on here and make an attempt at reasonable dialog.
I wouldn’t if I were CJ. Stephen D’s visit here shows that is not the best forum for reasonable dialog. I personally have no desire refereeing the war that would ensure if CJ were to post here.
If a SGM leader wanted to make a statement to our readers, I’d post it, but would probably close comments. Then I’d get the ‘blog nazi’ emails….
It seems like I run into the “occasional nut” most every day.
Hi Glenn
I rarely ask what people who have hurt by SGM what they want. I’m of the opinion that most people won’t get what they want.
I know a couple who had their reputation ruined by the actions of a SGM pastor and others in local leadership. The pastor took steps to rectify the matter, confessing the sin he brought to the table in the relationship.
Fortunately for this couple, what they wanted was reconciliation with this pastor. Had they wanted anything more, they would not have received it. There is no evidence that anyone involved thinks any better of them after the pastor’s actions.
I think that many who go back to their former pastors will be able to make peace with them. If not, I have this little letter writing campaign…. what I doubt will happen is that anyone will be “made whole” in the legal sense of the term.
Fortunately, we know Someone who’s in the business of making people whole.
Paul said:
“If scripture is used, you will be moderated and it will not be allowed on the site? What’s up with that Jim?”
The only place that I think where that came from was on the SGMSurvivors site. I recall the in the early days of that blog Kris was either moderating or threatening to moderate comments when an SGM Defenders would only post scripture as a comment. As I recall the scripture they would post would be extremely lengthy and again without any comments associated with it. On that blog Kris has said that is is fine to quote portions of scripture but not the way the defenders seemed to be doing.
These defenders thought that the scripture spoke for themselves. Typically they have become so indoctrinated with SGM’s teaching on what they consider gossip and slander they have no idea how others couldn’t see the same with what was being posted on the blog.
Jim, forgive me for alleging that you had deleted the scripture that I had posted. It may have been lost in the land of late night “hit the delete button” by mistake or like you said “sometimes things don’t get thru.” I was not thinking the best of you, and you have been most gracious in the times we have spoken.
Jim, I had posted the scripture concerning the gifts given by the Holy Spirit, some as prophets,….pastors etc, and asked if there was not supposed to be an I.C. then why would these verses and the other ones about church government be written by Paul (Elders, deacons etc)
I finished by saying if someone had been burned by the I.C. then hanging together fellowshipping on the beach would be a great idea. (I’d love a beach church)
When I posted it, it said it was in moderation. I wonder if I posted it under one of the other discussions but I was so tired I forgot where it went.
Paul
No worries Paul.
Do you think that everyone who has “left the building” has been burned by the IC?
Why would someone make that assumption?
Paul,
I think the majority of our readers have no interest in organic church, so I think that you’re connecting dots that aren’t there.
Barna says that 5 million American Christians have left the building forever. Like all Christians, they are a diverse group-some very solid, and some complete fruit loops, such as the group you are familiar with.
I have no idea where you got the term, “anti organized church”. How can believers assemble without some type of organization? How will they know what beach and when?
To answer the question you like to ask those who are “anti organized church”, the answer is yes. A new believer would be much better off in a small setting, surrounded by people who love them than by joining an IC and learning how to be a good churchian.
I’m very glad that you quoted Heb 10:25 in context, as the same command to assemble also tells us why we assemble. I’m amazed when people quote this verse in the context of, “you should go to church”, meaning, “you should go to First Whatever on Sunday at 10 to hear a 45 minute lecture while staring at the back of the heads of other believers.”
You tell me which setting is a better environment to stir up one another to love and good works, and encouraging one another.
For the record, I’m not “anti IC”. For most Americans, the IC is probably the best choice. Pay the professionals to teach you and your children. Perfect for the 21st century American male in particular. Leave the heavy lifting to the pros. I paid my fee, now give me a comfortable seat, a great band, and a great lecture. Take care of my kids while you’re at it, just make sure you’re done by noon, so I don’t miss the game.
What I’m saying is that there is a better way. A Biblical way that doesn’t include paid professional speakers and wonderful buildings, or the OT tithe to finance the deal.
…once upon a time there was a “CAR” named Christianity (Christian was a derogatory name to call believers “Little Christs”)
Today, after 2,000 years we have many different makes and models, but as long as the engine is Christ and Him crucified (1st Cor. 2:2) it is still a car. When we stand before God He will not see, Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist etc. All the externals that have been added due our own preferences, will all fall to the wayside. Our only ability to stand will be Christ death and resurrection. (“King James Only, Hymns in 4-4 time only,contemporary worship wearing shorts on Tuesday evenings only- Daniel Amos has a great song about churches with red hats)
You’re right, Peter and James and John never “went” to seminary – they were taught by Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit. Since they have all died, what option do you have? In our city, years ago, we had a man who said, “just show up, there aren’t any pastors, just stand up and tell everyone what God taught you this week” God “told one woman that it was okay to be with another woman,and it wasn’t questioned because that would be seen as legalism, and they desired “freedom in Christ”.
Jim, you asked me “Do you think that everyone who has “left the building” has been burned by the IC? Why would someone make that assumption?”
I guess from reading these sites. Others that have “left the building do so to avoid persecution such as in Cuba and China (persecution.com) and those that have decided to homechurch instead.
My question to those that are “anti organized church” has always been, when someone at work, or on the beach says “tell me about this Jesus, I now realize I am a sinner and have no hope” , do you take them into your home and disciple them, until they are strong enough to walk on their own? Didn’t Billy Graham realize after many years the error in having a revival meeting with no planned follow up for the new believers?
If you decided to never join any group of fellow believers and just worship God alone with your wife and kids, would you burn in Hell forever? Of course not, but is that really what Paul had in mind as he traveled around to all the churches in the various cities mentioned in the Pauline Epistles?
I think that someday, in this country, the organized churches will become museums, or burned to the ground (like in the old USSR) and you will see the Church driven underground, but there will still be a desire to gather together. Hebrews 10:23 – 25 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;
[24] and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Jim, you said ‘” Like all Christians, they are a diverse group-some very solid, and some complete fruit loops, such as the group you are familiar with.”
Now, come on SGM Refuge folks are decent – that was a low blow
I haven’t read the Organic Church thing – My last week has been non stop.
I have a theory why so many have left the I.C. and it has more to do with lack of the true love of Christ being lived out by the church goers across America. The easy believism, name it an claim it televangelist style of man centered religion taught in many churches (just look at 98% of “christian T.V.”) is a turn off to a world that is seeking truth.
When Christianity is lived out through loving the unlovely, caring for those that can’t care for themselves (widows and orphans) the world is drawn to that true expression of Christianity. When your neighbor is ill and you mow his lawn (or you just edge it when he isn’t sick) does more to draw men to Christ than a handful of Jack Chick tracks. ( I know I’m treading on some toes of Chickites here, so forgive me)
Gotta go mow my lawn, tired of waiting for my neighbor to do it.
Paul,
Is there a remote possibility that that thoughtful believers would read the NT and see a huge disconnect between what they read and what they experience on Sunday?
I had been a Christian for less than 60-90 days when this thought began to gnaw at me. I read through the NT twice during this time, and brought no interpretive grid to the table, as I was raised in a spiritual vacuum.
I think that if a person was born on a deserted island and found a NT and became a believer, he would not recognize what we do on Sunday morning as a Biblical Christian assembly.
Pres,
17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
You can’t possibly see a clergy/laity distinction in vs 17. An elder is an elder. Read vs 18 at face value. Elders are worthy of of honor in the same way that an ox is worthy of grain and a laborer is worthy of wages. Paul didn’t speak in parables-the text is plain.
If you read my September 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm above, I hope that I communicated clearly that I strongly believe in the assembly of the saints. I believe that the Christian community must have elders and deacons. The fact that I don’t believe in clergy, professional paid elders, 45 minute lectures (read the sermon on the mount and time it), or buildings we call “churches” does not make me “unchurched”.
Jim,
You wrote, “I think that if a person was born on a deserted island and found a NT and became a believer, he would not recognize what we do on Sunday morning as a Biblical Christian assembly.”
AMEN and AMEN!!!!! Our grids and traditions blind us from New Covenant truth, and we end up co-mingling law and grace and end up with what we have in MOST ICs today.
Pres: The unchurched comment strikes me as really being impossible for the believer, since he/she is a living stone, part of the church that Jesus is building and has NOTHING to do about where we park ourselves at 10am on Sunday morning–please. After being “churched” since 1969 (and a PCA elder for a couple of those yrs) I am not attending “church” any more! I am free in Christ and do church more often than ever as Abba places me in front of other brothers and sisters in Christ and places them in front of me.
As for me, I may continue like this or not, depending on where and how He leads. Oh and by the way, I am now free to give to the poor and real needs instead of the trumped up pleas for tithes which go for all the nonsence that the “church” deems as important, like buildings, parking lots, computers and other office equipment, staff, administrators, and so on. Doesn’t that bother you just a little deep down inside?
Sorry, have been sick and haven’t had a chance to respond for a while.
Jim – I would respectfully disagree and say that I do believe that 1 Tim 5:17 supports the distinction in elders and especially since it also talks about wages, supports the wages for an elder who teaches/preaches.
______- I disagree that Paul is just addressing age groups, I think verses 1& 2 could go with preceding chapter just as well. Starting at verse 3 he is not talking about older or younger woman, but widows and how to handle them (a function of the church from the earliest times with the first deacons). Then he talks about elders and how to provide for them. I think the context is about where the churches finances should be spent, and it is talking about providing financially for the elders who teach especially.
I also think that verse in Romans just supports what I am saying (since I have a reformed view of election).
I was reading some on this over the weekend, and I think in particular that if you look at the form of the verbs in the Greek it is clear that elder is not just in reference to their age but is an office. I will try to remember to bring my bible in to work tomorrow to post more on that.
______- your statement that “All of the ministries you mentioned were functioning long before there was any IC. “, where do you see that, how long before hand. The earliest writing we have have an institutional church, some of these were written barely after the apostles (John in particular) died, some possibly during his life. Ignatius and Clement clearly support an institutional church, and so did Polycarp and he was John’s disciple, and presumably took his instruction from John.
Now to be clear, I do not agree with the Senior pastor as CEO, and I don’t think that there a high church atmosphere is mandated, nor should it be. But I do think that scripture and the earliest church history shows a church that was organized and structured, and that is the way that God has set it up. Now does SGM completely pervert it – yes, absolutely, but that does not mean that the answer is to be unchurched, that is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Do you believe an overseer (episkopos) in 1 Tim 3 is an elder, or is a bishop different than an elder?
Re Jim – ” The fact that I don’t believe in clergy, professional paid elders, 45 minute lectures (read the sermon on the mount and time it), or buildings we call “churches” does not make me “unchurched”. -
I was not trying to call you unchurched, or anti-church. I don’t beleive in the necesity of buidlings, or the necesity of 45 minute lectures (I think shorter can be better, but not always, and I think that there were times when Jesus spoke for much longer, though we don’t have everything he said). I dont beleive in the necesity of profesional paid elders – I think that if a church can afforrd it that it is good to do. I do think, as I think that you do, that there must be some sort of stucture and there should be Elders and deacons to guide it, that is more what i was speaking for.
I do think that the case for paid clergy is in scripture, not as a necesity, but as something we should do. I think that passage in 1 Tim isn’t the only one that supports it – 1 cor 9 does, as well as Luke 10, I also think the princple is clear in Duet 18.
Now I would make clear that I am ironically not a super presbtyerian church/IC person despite my moniker. I do have doubts about the interprestaion of tithing and what it means in the church. However I do think that a church structure is what is needed and that while we are part of the universal church, we are also supposed to be part of local churches, which is why Paul went around establishing local bodies and instructed Timothy and Titus and others in the formation of and governing of them.
BTW Jim, i would also say that all of those words mean the same office(bishop and presbyter and elder).
Pres-then we agree on much! We could round and round about compensated elders. Here’s the issue-1 Tim 5 is the very best argument, and it’s inconclusive. I contend that Paul told the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 to follow his example and pay their own way.
Maybe you’ll find Acts 20 inconclusive
Either way, I’m happy to disagree agreeably… I would guess that maybe 0.1% of our readers agree with me.
I think that elder, pastor, and bishop all mean the same thing in regards to function. The qualifications in 1 Tim and Titus would imply that a man is older, as he’s not a novice, is married with children, and able to teach. He is thought well of by the community, including unbelievers.
This would be hard to pull off for a 22 year old. Timothy was around 40 years old when Paul told him to not allow others to look down on him because of his youth.
So, I would agree that elders (in the functional sense-not senior citizens) should not be young men. I have no idea where I would draw the line, but I’m sure I’d stay away from guys in their 20′s.
The jiggler agrees with Paul that the kingdom of God consists not of talk, but of power. The jiggler is looking for the man who can heal the sick and raise the dead. When the jiggler finds this man, he will ask him about what his preferred title is, how he got the title and how much he gets paid.
Jim thinks That Man already found the jiggler.
Ok, then I pose this question to those that feel that a pastor of a church should receive nothing from the congregation : are there any churches like that in America? We attended a Vineyard for awhile, but the Pastor was so busy being a mechanic Monday – Saturday, he never had time for his own family, let alone the church and it lasted a short while before disbanding and his marriage ending.
And Jim’s example of a man finding a Bible on a desert island falls short, because the Gideons only put Bibles in drawers of bedside tables in hotels and they don’t exist on desert islands.
“The jiggler agrees with Paul that the kingdom of God consists not of talk, but of power.”
I didn’t necessarily say “power” I said “love” The Beatles got it right when they said “All you need is Love” Jesus said, Matt 7 [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [20] Thus you will know them by their fruits.
Paul : Galations 5 [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.
[24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
My saddest memory of an early church experience was “Mrs Perkins”.
One Sunday, this guy comes walking and hitchhiking, in the rain, to the church from 15 miles away. The day before a member had told him about Jesus, and after pondering what he was told the young man decided to come check out the church and hear more about Jesus.
When he came into the church all wet and unkempt from his walk, Mrs Perkins told him that he was in “God’s house” and that he was not dressed appropriately to “meet the King”, and he needed to leave and clean up. As he walked out of the building, even as an 8 or 9 year old kid, something inside me wanted to go all “Chuck Norris” on Mrs Perkins and run after the wet visitor. If the church was made up of more children with love for the lost and less “Mrs Perkins” it would be a vibrant church, overflowing, with people that wanted to share what they had been so freely given.
Maybe the buildings and the staff and the computers and the parking lots and the pews and the windows and drapes and bulletins and organs and pianos and the big screens and sound systems and the donuts before the “services’ and the coffee after and the expense accounts and the secretaries, just maybe some of that has replaced what matters.
Maybe we should help those GOD raises up in ANY group as the needs become visible. Maybe we don’t need the seminary trained, Greek and Hebrew professionals after all. If knowing Greek were the answer, why are so many in Greece unbelievers? We spend so much time parsing words in our spiritual, intellectual circles that we miss THE LIVING WORD knocking on our anemic ‘church” doors, trying to shake us loose from our tradition and theological gift-wrapped answers. He says we cannot do anything without Him, but we do anyway. No wonder the “fruit” only looks good until you take a bite.
Even SGM claims to believe in a plurality of elders. If a group of Christians who gather together fall apart because of one man, something is very out of whack….
Paul, your paradigm is showing
I am so glad you guys are discussing the whole church government thing. My spouse and I have for at least he last 10 years had questions about why our “elders” are men in their 20′s, barely out of college and newly married. When I’ve voiced my concern about this subject the standard reply was about Timothy being “young” and being specially gifted. Unfortunately, in not only the SGM church chain but other denominations as well, we see the fruit of setting these young, inexperienced men loose to “oversee” (run amuck) the church of God. Meanwhile, the older, wiser men are overlooked and asked to set up chairs on Sunday morning.
The point made above about tithing that goes to pay for various church programs and projects really hit home too. In over 30 years as a Christian I had never questioned tithing, being taught it was a gospel truth. Frank Viola sure opened my eyes to the fact that nowhere does it mention tithing in the NT. I know that doesn’t mean we should quit giving. In fact, we should be giving more and more because God has blessed us. I believe more of us would be bigger givers if we had a vested interest in what we were giving to. There has to be faith connected to the giving and personally, I don’t have faith in bigger buildings, parking garages, gyms and corporate outreaches. I would rather give to an evangelist working in Africa, or a single mother who is trying to make it on her small income.
So keep up the conversation, it’s great!
Paul,
Positionally, The Church is perfect. Functionally, no such thing.
Biblical assembly? 1 Cor 14.
Jim – your perfect church, if it were to exist?
I agree The Bride is spotless, but you and I both know I was asking about a gathering of believers – not the Church universal.
Jim, you said about your perfect church “Functionally, no such thing.”
So, since that church does not exist, what should one do?
Paul,
One should gather with believers. Since most believers would agree that Scripture alone is our guide in faith and practice, one should make every effort to gather together in a Biblical manner.
Jim September 10th, 2009 at 1:09 am Paul, One should gather with believers.
Thank you Jim, that was all I was asking. Whether in a building or on a beach (I prefer the beach), we should be able to worship with anyone, if Christ is the focus of that worship. Whether in a building or locked in shackles like Paul and Silas.
On another note- I forgot a very important comment made by Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM September 8th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
“Maybe we don’t need the seminary trained, Greek and Hebrew professionals after all.”
I agree with Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM, when he points out that our churches are anemic and we often miss THE LIVING WORD. (Keith Green had a tract by David Wilkerson pointing out that very fact “A Christless Pentecost” ) But, I believe it is very important to have Biblical literary scholars, and one only needs to look at The Jehovah Witnesses massacre of John 1:1. “and the Word was ‘a’ God” to see their importance.
You see, without the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic scholars and historians, Mormons, JWs and others that rewrite scripture, could say “how can you say which Bible is correct, our interpretation or yours?”
There are whole groups today that say the Bible we hold has changed too much over time and isn’t trustworthy. Without your scholars, you don’t have an argument. “Scholars” or “Bereans” either way, they are important Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM.
Paul said, “Someone made a derogatory inference earlier about “easy beliefism”. My question is, does belief have to be hard? Is belief and faith not a gift? Is it up to us to believe? Would that not make it a work that I could boast about? Are we saved by OUR belief and OUR decisions? Is salvation truly a FREE gift, or do I have to DO something to obtain it, receive it, earn it, deserve it, qualify for it, etc. So if belief is a gift and it is EASY, then what is wrong with that? Can I add something to the finished work of the cross by MY belief, or by my obedience? I think John McArthur was the first to talk against “easy beliefism”.
Thoughts anyone?”
Stunned says, “AMEN!!!!!” Thank you for sharing. Stunned needs to meditate on this truth more often.
(What? You think only Jim and the jiggler can speak in third person?)
Paul,
Important, yes! But Greek scholars themselves come to very different conclusions while looking at the same Greek words. It’s not the Greek words that are so important; rather, it’s the meaning behind the words. Reading the words can be done by anyone educated in the language, BUT the meaning of scripture is discerned and illuminated by the author, NOT the scholar. An example of that can be seen with the religious leaders of Jesus’ day. They knew the words of scripture better than anyone, BUT AGAIN missed the living WORD standing right in their midst. Since Greek scholars can come to different conclusions, I wouldn’t build my life on what they conclude.
Maybe the bottom line is that “Scholars” or “Bereans” are helpful in plurality. However, knowing that all men approach the written Word with presuppositions, we can trust Abba with providing us with truth that will set us free. If we cannot do that, then we are dependant on others to feed us truth “from the jug to the mug,” like they did before the reformation. And then we are victims of what’s in the “scholar’s” jug, because what’s in the jug will end up in the mug.
STUNNED!!!
Haven’t seen you around in a while!… how are you doing? (I’ve missed your wit and your charm!!)
My problem was that I wanted a theological system/package all boxed up and ready to go, so I could strut around as the one who knew and had the “right” answers. God, by His grace, stripped them away and rebuilt from the ground up. The process is ongoing, but now the views of others isn’t as threatening and much more considered. I don’t have to be right or win. I know HE is truth; He is the way; He is LIFE, whether I have it all figured out or not. It is freeing. Now I am free to love those not seeing it “my way.” It is OK. God brings illumination, sometimes through one of us “jars of clay,” sometimes other ways. He really is building HIS CHURCH, and we don’t go to it. It is in us, manifesting itself out through us, as us–mystery!
Canary’s back!
Hee-hee…just taking little birdnaps here and there. I am pretty close to getting a new laptop. My friends know I’ve been computer hopping with family members’ PC’s for about four months now, since my six year old Toshiba committed Harri-carri. When you live in tech-weenie-ville like I do, there isn’t often a free computer to be found!
Hey Ellie, call me!
I think that there are 2 kinds of faith. Saving faith, which is a gift, and the faith you walk in (for we walk by faith and not by sight), which is a choice-sort of like choosing which voice in your head you’re going to believe.
…although I think the desire to choose to walk in faith is a grace gift as well.
My question is, does belief have to be hard? Is belief and faith not a gift? Is it up to us to believe?
People, we have to be careful here. Salvation is a free gift from God (Romans 5:15-16). Belief and faith are a choice of the will, based on our willingness to believe what God says to us. ______ asked, “Is it up to us?” The NT says YES! Do not be fooled. Believing God is not always easy. It takes our patience, perseverance, and trust. Some will fail at this out of a works mentality (Romans 10:31-33). Other Scriptures to look at:
Hebrews 3:12 – “Therefore beware brethren, take care lest there be in any one of you a wicked, unbelieving heart, leading you to turn away or stand aloof from the living God.”
And Hebrews 3:19 – “So we see that they were not able to enter into His rest, because of their unwillingness to adhere to and trust in and rely on God [Unbelief had shut them out].”
The entire book of Hebrews is a manual on how to believe God, how to hold tightly to that free gift of salvation as the world does all it can to tear it away from us. The writer of Hebrews reveals just how hard that can be! It explains the dangers of not believing what God says to us. How many of us true saints find it challenging to believe God in our daily circumstances? Will the money be here today to pay my mortage before I get forclosed on? Will my child survive this cancer? Will I be able to take care of my three children alone, because my husband left me? Will God provide?
We delude ourselves if we continue to say that belief and faith are something given to us freely, as salvation is. It is faith that pleases God. We fight everyday to believe and hold on to that trust, by His grace. To do this, we must have hearts that desire His will above all else. The sort of faith that says “Even though He slay me, yet still I will trust Him” is not a gift that only certain people are given. It is a CHOICE of the will to say “Yes Lord, let it be as you say.” It is fearlessly and confidently and boldly drawing near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy for our failures, and find grace to help in good time for every need, trusting that the help will arrive just in time (Hebrews 4:16). This is not easy. It never is easy. However, the struggle builds within us patient endurance, for which we have need of.
I end with Hebrews 6:11-12:
“But we do strongly and earnestly desire for each of you to show the same diligence and sincerity all the way through in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of your hope until the end, in order that you may not grow disinterested and become spiritual sluggards, but imitators, behaving as do those who through faith (by the leaning of the entire personality on God in Christ in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom and goodness) and by practice of patient endurance and waiting are now inheriting the promises.”
I think we can do NOTHING well apart from the grace of God. Saving faith is a gift. The daily practice of walking by faith or, as you say so well, choosing which voice in your head you are going to believe, is a choice. So I think we are in agreement.
I had a choice a few weeks ago. Believe in God’s goodness or despair. We owed money to our home owner’s association. Times have been tight. The Treasurer was going to put a lean on our house if we did not pay what we owed by Sept. 1st. We didn’t have the money. My husband and I didn’t know how it was all going to work out. We just knew, by faith, that God is good.
Well, after months of inactivity, one of our stocks suddenly sold. We were three hundred dollars over the amount needed! Guess when the wire cleared? Yup, on Sept. 1st. We were saved in the nick of time. Our choice to trust in the Lord instead of panic brought an exciting ending to what promised to be a bad experience. Yet, we do not forget that God’s grace has taught us faith.
This kind of faith is not easily learned. Believing God is a daily
fight, a daily manna-type experience. When faced with the choice to trust God or despair, practice makes you understand that despair is a dead end road.
Anyway, I just didn’t want those out there who are struggling to believe God for something serious to feel they are falling short because they haven’t been given a “gift” to believe. They have the choice to trust God. By His grace, we can persevere and believe when everything around us shouts, “God has deserted you. Give up and die!”
That’s one of those voices we DON’T want to listen to!
My daughter needs her laptop. Guess I’m off again.
Well said Canary. Thank you for sharing the story of God’s kindness to you!
Canary,
wonderful to hear your “tweets” again!
My struggle with the need to be right and win is lessening as I surrender to the fact that needing to win and be right are works of the flesh and results of not walking in the Spirit. As has been posted, walking in the flesh (we do it intermittently throughout the day) is humanity living independently of God; walking in the Spirit is humanity (Christians) living dependently on God. You don’t have to pray for it because it is already yours. Just walk in it, allowing HIS life to flow as you begin to NOT have to manage life or the outcomes of it, living free as Jesus did as He, in His humanity, relied on His Father. These things are utterly impossible by our mere determination to do them–but they are a piece of cake when HIS LIFE, living in us produces the fruit of His presence.
Be the branch by abiding; He will be the vine, and His life will produce fruit in your life like you cannot believe. Isn’t He good! Our religious mind wants to complicate these things by making it something we need to grit our teeth to accomplish–not so. The power in in you, and it is HIM!! Good news!!
StunnedSeptember 10th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Paul said, “Someone made a derogatory inference earlier about “easy beliefism”.
Stunned, (sept 7th 6:09 PM) I was using a term “easy believism” (not found in the Bible- either Greek or Hebrew) as referring to the greasy grace mentality that some use by saying “I can sin, it’s okay, God’ll forgive me” That is the theology you’ll see on Robert Tilton type televangelist stuff. That make any more sense? (antinomianism is the term -it’s the exact opposite of legalism) Interesting to see all the dialog around the topic.
Wonder if doulos would like to weigh in on this subject?
If grace is based on obedience then it isn’t grace; rather, it becomes a reward for compliance to some set of requirements. Grace must be free, without cost, or it becomes a reward for something.
In the old covenant, it was do good, get good; do bad, get bad. In the new covenant, we have the second Adam taking our sins INTO Himself and humanly dying (wages of sin is death) and then being raised to new life–NEVER to die again. And that very resurrected LIFE is ours by grace through faith. That faith isn’t us trying real hard to get it all together intellectually and leaping into it. It is us simply responding to what HE has done and resting our lives deeply into HIM. It is all about what He has done. We must remove ourselves totally from the equation. Our only reasonable response is “thank you Lord,” not us trying to live some kind of a religious life. If we do, we will become self-righteous when we are having a good day, and feel condemned when our day isn’t going so well.
Again, as I walk in the Spirit (living a life dependant on Him), I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Gal. 5:16
The religious mind says stop fulfilling the lust of the flesh, and we try so hard. And we fail and feel so condemned and so tired. God’s way is walk in the Spirit, living dependently on Him, knowing that LIFE is there, not in ourselves. He said it” ”without me, you can do nothing!” John 15:5 Failure comes as we try living for Him through the flesh. The flesh is powerless and can not be Christianized, which is good because it causes us to run back to Him for LIFE and power and a sound mind.
Yes, indeed, and most of us have been taught that God is good; we are bad, and that we should try harder. And on and on we go, never living in the joy filled realm of the Spirit. We conclude that maybe one more conference, seminar, fast, more intense daily devotions, or myriad other efforts, only to discover that what we are looking for is ALL found in HIM–simply as that. He said, “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
For those that still believe that theologians are not necessary one only needs to go to websites like http://www.brojed.org/contents.html and http://www.tentmaker.org/ to see that all it takes is a twisting of a verse here or there and you have something that tickles the ears of the listener because it is more pallitable than the fact that Jesus said “Narrow is the way”. On one extreme you have Jed Smock saying that Christians are sinless, and anyone that sins is not a Christian and on the other hand is a new cult call Tentmakers that portrays God as a gentle old grandpa in a rocking chair that will forgive everyone in the end, Adolf Hitler and even Satan because of the verse that says “every knee will bow” It is foolish to say that we don’t need the DA Carson, Spurgeons, Matthew Henry’s, R.C. Sprouls,J.I.Packers etc’s, and that we can sit with our Bible open and the Holy Spirit will open our eyes to the truth. Joseph Smith said that and now we have the Book of Mormon.
Don’t be so sixties in your disdain for authority and teaching. Much can be learned from men that have poured their lives into study. We don’t all have time to become Greek or Hebrew scholars and we can thank God that He has gifted some to spend their lives investigating so that we could benefit from their knowledge. The Holy Spirit is our guide to help us discern truth from a lie as we peruse through the findings.
It is all part of abeing a Berean. We should always take what we have back to scripture to see if it lines up and God is glorified.
Paul,
I’m personally grateful to God for scholars.
“don’t be so sixties“, is pretty funny.
Hey, Jim or Carol
I posted three comments last week that never showed up on the blog–including one that asked if I were still lost in moderation. Could y’all check the spam/acme filter?
BTW, no response from CLC yet.
Hi Acme!
By Golly, you were in the spam file! Thanks for letting us know. Sorry about that, I don’t know how that happened, as you are certainly NOT spam! I will have to be more diligent in the future to check that file!!
Your comments are now on the blog!
Awe, not needing to win or be right. I am cheering for you, my friend.
I finally got an answer from Gary Amirault (info@tentmaker.org) about his theological background and this is the response he gave me – “Act 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived
that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took
knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”
I was then directed to videos at this site
http://www.tentmaker.org/video.....gindex.htm
Tentmakerrs are a group of a couple of guys that believe that God speaks to people and they don’t need any theological training. Where has this “enlightenment led them?
They believe that “every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee includes Adolf Hitler and Satan. So, do you agree with these men who follow what “the spirit” tells them or do you listen to men that have spent their lives studying the ancient writings to compare with what we have today.
Follow a fool and you’ll get what you paid for. All men are fallible, does that mean we don’t listen to anyone? Just follow the feelings? No, we read and compare and ask the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. We don’t toss everyone out because they are fallible. If that were true, you wouldn’t be on SGM Refuge because Jim is close to fallible, but only by a hair.
I love Tozer, CS Lewis and Billy Graham, Wesley, Whitefield, (all non reformed Arminians) as well as John Owen, John Piper, Jonathan Edwards, DA Carson, Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney and JI Packer. All Reformed.
Looking forward to your response if mine makes it through moderation.
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM
September 13th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Awe, not needing to win or be right. I am cheering for you, my friend.
Who was this directed at? And what does it mean?
Paul, It was not directed at you. The person it was directed to knows. But since you brought it up, how are you doing with the need to win or be right?
I was a die hard Arminian for 20 years. Then I read Paul’s road to Damascus story ( I have read it many times before) and it hit me – Paul never attended a Billy Graham Crusade. He was not in a gutter stoned out of his mind. He wasn’t hung over feeling guilty. He wasn’t repentant about his hatred of Jesus and His followers. He was on his way to kill followers of Jesus, and suddenly Jesus knocks him off his horse and says “get up, you are mine”. I guess you might consider that “choice” in that Paul could have said “up yours, I’m off to kill your followers”, but it looks to me as if Paul is not given any choice in the matter. Then I began to see a pattern -”Peter, drop your nets, come follow me” “Moses, I’ve chosen you” Israel is God’s chosen people.
At the end though, CS Lewis, and Charles Spurgeon are both side by side at the throne worshiping the Lamb who was slain.
Frank Viola and George Barna! (Frank Viola’s Organic Church)
I remember seeing those names somewhere and then it hit me.
They are affiliated with Tentmakers.org
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/23.html
A delightful little group that teaches that there is no hell and Satan will join us in Heaven worshiping God.
So,Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM,
I guess that answers your question why I feel the need to be right.
When such heresy is being taught, it needs to be exposed. Unless you are an adherant to such heresy.
Paul,
Frank Viola is my brother in Christ. His views, like all of our views, may miss the mark on some issues, but do we really want to marginalize him and label him a heretic?
As I am sure you know, John Stott, the esteemed British theologian, rejected the idea of hell before he finally died. Shall we label him a heretic, or conclude he got that one wrong? Should we throw his wonderful, rich writings away, or should we view them as we do all men’s writings? Truth doesn’t change with the times. Truth will prevail, and NONE of us can claim that ALL truth flows only through us. Isn’t is easy for us to see our world as us and them. We are right, and they are not. When I do that, I can become awfully contentious with those who don’t agree with me. It kind of kills the idea of loving my neighbor as myself. Calvin had a way of dealing with heretics, by burning them at the stake with green wood to prolong the agony. Maybe, even he got that one wrong.
Paul,
In what way are Barna and Viola “affiliated” with tentmakers? Does tentmakers sell or recommend their books, or have you seen an endorsement from Barna/Viola of tentmakers? Is CCEF “affilated” with this blog because I link to them? No.
Barna/Viola are not universalists.
Please explain the nature of their affiliation. If you’ve slandered Barna/Viola, please do the right thing and recant.
http://tentmaker.org/store/ind.....ductId=144
Jim the link above shows Tentmakers online store, featuring “Pagan Christianity”.
I first saw Barna and Viola’s names on the bottom of their FAQ’s page while researching Tentmakers. Someone I know, and love, has fallen into this lie and I have spent alot of time on their site. (And yes, when asked they do say that Satan will be with all of humanity in Heaven – Christian Universalism).
I’ll recant that Viola and Barna are Universalists after researching further, and admit that I jumped the gun to label them heretics (although Tentmakers are) because I saw Tentmakers endorsing their book and selling it in their online bookstore.
One has to wonder why Tentmakers would want to endorse anything that might challenge their theology. Have Viola and Barna ever said anything about Tentmaker’s love for their material, and tried to distance themselves? Do they even know that Tentmakers uses their book to further their agenda?
(Jim, I’ll e mail you seperately why I am so passionate on the whole Tentmakers Heresy)
Paul,
You’re applying faulty logic. I could sell any book I wanted on this site with an amazon account. I could also buy in bulk, directly from the publisher, who is in business to sell books.
There is nothing any author could do about it, and they would have no idea I was doing it. The authors would not be “affiliated” with me.
You owe Barna and Viola an apology. I’ve read the book-it does not promote universalism.
Jim told me that my apology to Viola and Barna was insufficient. I will take him at his word.
If they are reading this, I ask them to forgive me for lumping them in with the Heretics at Tentmakers. In my minute understanding of websites, if I see something on a web site , I think it means that the people on the sidebars are somehow connected to the website owner. I was wrong. I know nothing of Viola and Barna’s teachings and was wrong to toss the heretic word. Frank and George, please forgive me. I thought since Tentmakers was endorsing their book “Pagan Christianity” they were all in bed together. I was wrong. I think Viola and Barna would not want to be associated with Tentmakers.
Now, on the Tentmakers….. different story, anyone that teaches that there is no Hell and Satan will be rejoicing in front of the throne with Adolf Hitler and EVERYONE in all of history is not only deceived but teaching the doctrine of demons.
And one more time – Frank and George, if you are out there, I was wrong to quickly slam you without knowing where you were coming from. It was a “Guilty by Association” thing. You can’t help it if Tentmakers endorses your books. If you are truly teaching people the importance of gathering together in home churches, as long as they are Christ centered and He is glorified, more power to you.
GD said, “The process is ongoing, but now the views of others isn’t as threatening and much more considered.”
GD, that is such a wonderful place to be. I think God is moving me more in that direction at the moment. Thanks for sharing and being an encouragement.
Paul, up on Sept 11, at 1:09am you quoted me quoting you. You then said, “I was using a term “easy believism” (not found in the Bible- either Greek or Hebrew) as referring to the greasy grace mentality that some use by saying “I can sin, it’s okay, God’ll forgive me” That is the theology you’ll see on Robert Tilton type televangelist stuff. That make any more sense?”
Errr, ah, it makes sense but I wouldn’t say it makes any more sense as I wasn’t confused at all in the first place. But thanks for trying to clarify for me in case I was.
Btw, “Hi Carole!!!!!”
May Abba draw us deeper into Himself, where the noise isn’t so loud and distracting, the place where our hands aren’t grabbing, but instead open, void of anxiety and fully trusting.
From Frank Viola-
Dear Friends,
I’m writing this note with great thankfulness. There are a number of things I want to report and for which I want to give the Lord praise.
First, thank you all so much for supporting the new book, “Finding Organic Church.” The book hit #12 on Amazon.com (that’s #12 out of 7 million books!) and it was the #2 book in the Christianity section the day it launched. Interest in the book is still very strong, and people and groups are emailing us with great reports on how they are being benefited by it.
A very sincere “thanks” to all of you who made the effort to help the book on September 1st.