Comments on: “one of the largest and strongest church plantings in Sovereign Grace Ministries’ history” http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/ a haven for castaways, a call for reform Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:41:03 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: kay http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12994 kay Thu, 03 Sep 2009 17:04:47 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12994 i stumbled on to this web site looking for a church to attend, my family and I have recently left our church of 14 years because of alot of this same complaints that i have read here. It was a reformed church holding to alot of the teachings as sgm w/o the charismatic. I have come to the the conclusion after 3 years of researching and obtaining counsel from other christians out side the reformed teaching w/o telling why we were looking for a new church just inquiring about the way there elders operate and what fellowship there was not letting on that we were concerned . "we were just looking for fellowship for our teenagr daughter". so no red flags were raised. We have seen many in our old church hurt and cast out for not submitting to elder rule ,being arrogant for not following counsel (even in physical abuse), all under the guise that reapproach was being brought upon the church. The same attitude toward nonrerormed family members too instead of trying to show them the love of Christ , you dont Have fellowship with them until they have been elected . My conclusion and only my opinion I am not judge God is , reformed teaching claims to give God the glory but takes out all the grace.I guess they forget that they to were once on that side of the gulf . I know our nation has lost much of its reverence for God but the REformed churches have left there first love and look down on others as not teaching the gospel, if it looks ,taste,and feels like an apple , it probably is, Pharisees. We still love and pray for our brethren we would have fellowship with them if they would us but they think we died I guess. No one has called or returned our calls since we dropped our membership, we left on good terms no one even knew we were questioning things , it was a shock to the elders when we dropped . MY POINT BEING WE WERE not making noise or gossiping we had just observed from the side lines , my husband was a deacon so he knew a little more than your " average member". I cant speak for all reformed churches just the ones in the assocation were apart of, but as far as the reformed having compassion for the lost , now that we are out of it I can see how far off they are in being Christ like and going among and eating and conversing with sinner outside there  gate, sure they converse with the ones among there gate because there elect sinners and not all are elect.  I dont want to cause any to stumble so do as the bereans do and check all your taught with the scriptures , as God has given us elders in the Church to watch and Rule over us when they are doing asChrist did. Those that teach will be held accountable to a higher answer and God is faithful , HE WILL NEVER LEAVE NOR FORSAKE HIS BRIDE. He is faithful and chastises his children and always welcomes them back with loving arms and gather them under His wings. Pray, pray, pray, read,read,read........ staying in communion with the father is the only way to know His will. Bitterness can become a huge root that grows deep before you know it, its a weed that grows fast and furious and before you know its a tree that has grown, that is very hard to uproot. pray for those on both sides so the root will be cut off. We prayed have no more bitterness and are in church that loves the saved and the unsaved. ITS NOT A PERFECT cHURCH because were there, but when that great trumpet is heard on that great day the we will all Be THE pERFECT CHURCH. God Bless and you will perserve and be more refined when your brought through fire. i stumbled on to this web site looking for a church to attend, my family and I have recently left our church of 14 years because of alot of this same complaints that i have read here. It was a reformed church holding to alot of the teachings as sgm w/o the charismatic. I have come to the the conclusion after 3 years of researching and obtaining counsel from other christians out side the reformed teaching w/o telling why we were looking for a new church just inquiring about the way there elders operate and what fellowship there was not letting on that we were concerned . “we were just looking for fellowship for our teenagr daughter”. so no red flags were raised. We have seen many in our old church hurt and cast out for not submitting to elder rule ,being arrogant for not following counsel (even in physical abuse), all under the guise that reapproach was being brought upon the church. The same attitude toward nonrerormed family members too instead of trying to show them the love of Christ , you dont Have fellowship with them until they have been elected . My conclusion and only my opinion I am not judge God is , reformed teaching claims to give God the glory but takes out all the grace.I guess they forget that they to were once on that side of the gulf . I know our nation has lost much of its reverence for God but the REformed churches have left there first love and look down on others as not teaching the gospel, if it looks ,taste,and feels like an apple , it probably is, Pharisees. We still love and pray for our brethren we would have fellowship with them if they would us but they think we died I guess. No one has called or returned our calls since we dropped our membership, we left on good terms no one even knew we were questioning things , it was a shock to the elders when we dropped . MY POINT BEING WE WERE not making noise or gossiping we had just observed from the side lines , my husband was a deacon so he knew a little more than your ” average member”. I cant speak for all reformed churches just the ones in the assocation were apart of, but as far as the reformed having compassion for the lost , now that we are out of it I can see how far off they are in being Christ like and going among and eating and conversing with sinner outside there  gate, sure they converse with the ones among there gate because there elect sinners and not all are elect.  I dont want to cause any to stumble so do as the bereans do and check all your taught with the scriptures , as God has given us elders in the Church to watch and Rule over us when they are doing asChrist did. Those that teach will be held accountable to a higher answer and God is faithful , HE WILL NEVER LEAVE NOR FORSAKE HIS BRIDE. He is faithful and chastises his children and always welcomes them back with loving arms and gather them under His wings. Pray, pray, pray, read,read,read…….. staying in communion with the father is the only way to know His will. Bitterness can become a huge root that grows deep before you know it, its a weed that grows fast and furious and before you know its a tree that has grown, that is very hard to uproot. pray for those on both sides so the root will be cut off. We prayed have no more bitterness and are in church that loves the saved and the unsaved. ITS NOT A PERFECT cHURCH because were there, but when that great trumpet is heard on that great day the we will all Be THE pERFECT CHURCH.
God Bless and you will perserve and be more refined when your brought through fire.

]]> By: Freedom http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12943 Freedom Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:02:33 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12943 Dennis - you are correct about sgm putting you into a box. They will hold it over you head for the rest of your natural life. Can you imagine if spouses did that to each other? What kind of relationship would they have? How would it survive? The one that constantly beat down over an "issue" would eventually leave. In the meantime, they would just suffer from severe depression and told it was their "sin" causing their issue and just to "submit" to their authority. But, that is what sgm does to the flock. Dennis – you are correct about sgm putting you into a box. They will hold it over you head for the rest of your natural life. Can you imagine if spouses did that to each other? What kind of relationship would they have? How would it survive? The one that constantly beat down over an “issue” would eventually leave. In the meantime, they would just suffer from severe depression and told it was their “sin” causing their issue and just to “submit” to their authority. But, that is what sgm does to the flock.

]]> By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12937 Canary Sun, 30 Aug 2009 17:11:24 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12937 Jiggler, Your 10:53 - HA HA HA HA HA HA! That was my laugh for today.  NOW, be good...( saying this with "tongue in cheek" 'cause I really don't want you to stop horsing around - it's too fun). Jiggler,

Your 10:53 – HA HA HA HA HA HA!

That was my laugh for today.  NOW, be good…( saying this with “tongue in cheek” ’cause I really don’t want you to stop horsing around – it’s too fun).

]]> By: Dennis http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12932 Dennis Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:11:58 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12932 Hi Jiggler, I did not see your last post before I posted mine. Thanks for that clarification.  Hi Jiggler,

I did not see your last post before I posted mine. Thanks for that clarification. 

]]> By: Dennis http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12930 Dennis Sun, 30 Aug 2009 15:02:56 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12930 One of the things about SGM is that once you get put into a box, you can never get out. If you caused trouble by questioning the leadership one time, then you will always be looked at or remembered as a trouble maker. Once I openly questioned tithing, I was always labeled as a rebellious sort. And no matter how long ago such "offense" took place, they remember it like it was yesterday, and treat you accordingly. Sound familiar? So much for the golden rule. Many Christians want mercy for themselves, but judgement for everyone else. A very good book concerning this hypocrisy is "Crucified by Christians".  Some people just cannot let go of the past, even after the person has repented and asked for forgiveness.  Let us not fall into that same condemning trap. Romans 8:1 - "There is now therefor now <strong>NO</strong> condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." One of the things about SGM is that once you get put into a box, you can never get out. If you caused trouble by questioning the leadership one time, then you will always be looked at or remembered as a trouble maker. Once I openly questioned tithing, I was always labeled as a rebellious sort.
And no matter how long ago such “offense” took place, they remember it like it was yesterday, and treat you accordingly. Sound familiar? So much for the golden rule. Many Christians want mercy for themselves, but judgement for everyone else. A very good book concerning this hypocrisy is “Crucified by Christians”. 

Some people just cannot let go of the past, even after the person has repented and asked for forgiveness.  Let us not fall into that same condemning trap.

Romans 8:1 – “There is now therefor now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

]]> By: jiggler http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12929 jiggler Sun, 30 Aug 2009 14:53:15 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12929 Dennis: The jiggler mentioned you and Stephen because you are both controversial. *smile* The jiggler encourages you at this point to run away. Still....trying......to.......follow........Canary's...........advice..........getting............weaker. Muhahahahahahahahahaha! sic semper tyrannis \m/ >.< \m/ Dennis:

The jiggler mentioned you and Stephen because you are both controversial.

*smile*

The jiggler encourages you at this point to run away.

Still….trying……to…….follow……..Canary’s………..advice……….getting…………weaker.

Muhahahahahahahahahaha!

sic semper tyrannis

\m/ >.< \m/

]]> By: Dennis http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12928 Dennis Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:56:51 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12928 Hi Jiggler, Just out of curiosity, why did you mention my name along with Stephens? Hi Jiggler,

Just out of curiosity, why did you mention my name along with Stephens?

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12927 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:41:28 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12927 Well said, Kindred Spirit.  With Brent and the"old guard" of TAG/PDI and so on though, I think they just plain think they are right, and if they could just get everyone else to see it their (right) way, Christianity will be good.  The problem, again, is that "strong arming" people to conform to "right" at best only improves externals, so you have a lot of people falling in line with whatever the "leader" considers "right."  That is why there is so much emphasis in SGM on reading the right "approved" books, going to the right conferences, required to attend care groups, which is only an extension of the "leader,"  and so on.  In my early days in SGM, I remember ignoring red flags because I thought it was just me.  But as time went on and I saw up close and personal control, we walked away.  As I look back, I am embarrassed at how naive I was, but it is hard to sniff it out when things are so well sanitized. Well said, Kindred Spirit.  With Brent and the”old guard” of TAG/PDI and so on though, I think they just plain think they are right, and if they could just get everyone else to see it their (right) way, Christianity will be good.  The problem, again, is that “strong arming” people to conform to “right” at best only improves externals, so you have a lot of people falling in line with whatever the “leader” considers “right.”  That is why there is so much emphasis in SGM on reading the right “approved” books, going to the right conferences, required to attend care groups, which is only an extension of the “leader,”  and so on.  In my early days in SGM, I remember ignoring red flags because I thought it was just me.  But as time went on and I saw up close and personal control, we walked away.  As I look back, I am embarrassed at how naive I was, but it is hard to sniff it out when things are so well sanitized.

]]> By: A Kindred Spirit http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12926 A Kindred Spirit Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:12:48 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12926 "This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change." Ahhh...there's that word again..."change." Uhh...many of us know the pastors at CrossWay.  Is this pastor trying to say that Brent is the reason they've been so controlling all these years?  Because that's a lie.  Granted, Brent was "over-the-top" when it came to control, the poster child for sure; but those other guys like control, too. As a matter of fact, I can take Brent's obvious "in-your-face" control better than I can take their subtle, deceptive control.  You know where you stand with Brent...what you see is what you get.  But that deceptive/manipulative control...now that's some EVIL stuff!  Hard to detect at first because it appears so "genuine, compassionate, and loving." Knowing these pastors' STRONG personalities, I don't think anyone's going to buy into "the devil (Brent) made me do it."  (I'm NOT calling Brent "the devil", simply making a point.) Brent's guilty, that's for sure!  But these other guys are no saints, let me assure you.  They would be HORRIFIED if they were told folks had tape recordings of the things they've said to them over the years.  Absolutely horrified!  What's even more sickening is the "ever so humble and caring" attitude with which they condemned them.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard folks walk away from a meeting with MC and say, "he comes across as such a humble, compassionate man, and he seemed GENUNINELY interested in what I had to say; but somehow I walked away feeling so condemned." Like I said...give me an "in-your-face" kind of guy ANY DAY!!     “This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change.”

Ahhh…there’s that word again…”change.”

Uhh…many of us know the pastors at CrossWay.  Is this pastor trying to say that Brent is the reason they’ve been so controlling all these years?  Because that’s a lie.  Granted, Brent was “over-the-top” when it came to control, the poster child for sure; but those other guys like control, too.

As a matter of fact, I can take Brent’s obvious “in-your-face” control better than I can take their subtle, deceptive control.  You know where you stand with Brent…what you see is what you get.  But that deceptive/manipulative control…now that’s some EVIL stuff!  Hard to detect at first because it appears so “genuine, compassionate, and loving.”

Knowing these pastors’ STRONG personalities, I don’t think anyone’s going to buy into ”the devil (Brent) made me do it.”  (I’m NOT calling Brent “the devil”, simply making a point.)

Brent’s guilty, that’s for sure!  But these other guys are no saints, let me assure you.  They would be HORRIFIED if they were told folks had tape recordings of the things they’ve said to them over the years.  Absolutely horrified!  What’s even more sickening is the “ever so humble and caring” attitude with which they condemned them.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard folks walk away from a meeting with MC and say, “he comes across as such a humble, compassionate man, and he seemed GENUNINELY interested in what I had to say; but somehow I walked away feeling so condemned.”

Like I said…give me an “in-your-face” kind of guy ANY DAY!! 

  

]]> By: SGMsingle http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12924 SGMsingle Sun, 30 Aug 2009 06:42:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12924 Jiggler, You said "the jiggler confesses that he too enjoys arguing with 20 people at once and is actively trying to figure out how to start such an argument without actually getting caught starting said argument. The jiggler appreciates the appearance of Stephen and Dennis because it may now be possible." LOL I love your humor ! You are goading them like a certain radio talk show host goads the President, Speaker of the House, and Secretary of State. When said politicians criticize said talk radio personality by name, he gets free publicity, increased ratings, and increased advertising revenue ! Jiggler,

You said “the jiggler confesses that he too enjoys arguing with 20 people at once and is actively trying to figure out how to start such an argument without actually getting caught starting said argument.
The jiggler appreciates the appearance of Stephen and Dennis because it may now be possible.”

LOL I love your humor ! You are goading them like a certain radio talk show host goads the President, Speaker of the House, and Secretary of State. When said politicians criticize said talk radio personality by name, he gets free publicity, increased ratings, and increased advertising revenue !

]]> By: jiggler http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-3/#comment-12923 jiggler Sun, 30 Aug 2009 03:39:22 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12923 The jiggler is actively following Canary's advice and doing his best to harness his words and formulate his posts in such a way that they contribute to a healthy and happy discussion without causing injury to others. That being said the jiggler confesses that he too enjoys arguing with 20 people at once and is actively trying to figure out how to start such an argument without actually getting caught starting said argument. The jiggler appreciates the appearance of Stephen and Dennis because it may now be possible. The jiggler is glad that GCC closed.  The jiggler thinks it's a good thing.  Some people are going to be hurt in the short term and the jiggler is sorry for them, but they will be better off in the long term. Amputation is sometimes the only way to stop the spread of infection. The jiggler knows enough of what went on to believe this to be true.  Many who left on the church plant were of the opinion that CCC was too loose or on its way to becoming to loose.  Can you imagine that? Not enough control, we need more.  This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change. They wanted tight and they got it.  In spades. The jiggler is actively following Canary’s advice and doing his best to harness his words and formulate his posts in such a way that they contribute to a healthy and happy discussion without causing injury to others.

That being said the jiggler confesses that he too enjoys arguing with 20 people at once and is actively trying to figure out how to start such an argument without actually getting caught starting said argument.

The jiggler appreciates the appearance of Stephen and Dennis because it may now be possible.

The jiggler is glad that GCC closed.  The jiggler thinks it’s a good thing.  Some people are going to be hurt in the short term and the jiggler is sorry for them, but they will be better off in the long term. Amputation is sometimes the only way to stop the spread of infection. The jiggler knows enough of what went on to believe this to be true.  Many who left on the church plant were of the opinion that CCC was too loose or on its way to becoming to loose.  Can you imagine that? Not enough control, we need more.  This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change.

They wanted tight and they got it.  In spades.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12919 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:33:33 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12919 Gracie, You are so right!  He is there ready to assure us that He is crazy about us and all that is worth having is found in HIM!!!! Gracie,

You are so right!  He is there ready to assure us that He is crazy about us and all that is worth having is found in HIM!!!!

]]> By: Gracie http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12918 Gracie Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:29:36 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12918 Hey GD, A verse that the Lord used in my darkest hours of PDI aftermath was "Let us go to Him, outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore."  When I was shunned, when folks who were formerly my friends actually seemed afraid of me, when I felt the walls go up and my heart about to break, I would go to Him, outside the camp ( WAY outside), and He was there.  He was there!  I'll never forget that. Hey GD,
A verse that the Lord used in my darkest hours of PDI aftermath was “Let us go to Him, outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore.”  When I was shunned, when folks who were formerly my friends actually seemed afraid of me, when I felt the walls go up and my heart about to break, I would go to Him, outside the camp ( WAY outside), and He was there. 

He was there!  I’ll never forget that.

]]> By: Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12916 Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:24:25 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12916 Yes, it seems they have pretty much "sanitized" their ranks at SG headquarters! I remember when we left our SG "church."  Our names and identification (pictures) and contact info were removed within days, so others couldn't contact us who didn't already have our info.  In one way, it made the break feel cleaner; on the other hand, we had a sense of betrayal and isolation as well.  But all is well now.  Their is LIFE in the New Covenant outside the camp! :-) Yes, it seems they have pretty much “sanitized” their ranks at SG headquarters!

I remember when we left our SG “church.”  Our names and identification (pictures) and contact info were removed within days, so others couldn’t contact us who didn’t already have our info.  In one way, it made the break feel cleaner; on the other hand, we had a sense of betrayal and isolation as well.  But all is well now.  Their is LIFE in the New Covenant outside the camp! :-)

]]> By: Dennis http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12915 Dennis Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:42:26 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12915 Here is Brent's bio from the SGM site. All that comes up is his name! All the info about him has been removed! <a href="http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/About/LeadershipBios/BrentBio.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/About/LeadershipBios/BrentBio.aspx</a> Here is Brent’s bio from the SGM site. All that comes up is his name! All the info about him has been removed!

http://www.sovereigngraceminis.....ntBio.aspx

]]> By: Dennis http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12912 Dennis Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:44:03 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12912 AMEN Square Peg!  Romans says "Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more." It later says in Romans that "ALL THINGS work together for good to those who love God..." So where sin abounds, God's grace abounds even more and He will work it for good. Isn't that amazing! We get so focused on the abounding sin, that we forget about the "grace abounding much more" promise.  So maybe the more the sin abounds at SGM, the easier it will be for people to see it and leave. AMEN Square Peg!  Romans says “Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.”
It later says in Romans that “ALL THINGS work together for good to those who love God…” So where sin abounds, God’s grace abounds even more and He will work it for good. Isn’t that amazing!

We get so focused on the abounding sin, that we forget about the “grace abounding much more” promise.  So maybe the more the sin abounds at SGM, the easier it will be for people to see it and leave.

]]> By: Square Peg http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12907 Square Peg Sat, 29 Aug 2009 04:07:23 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12907 Anytime a church closes down, I'm sad.  Years ago, I remember RC Sproul saying that (I'm paraphrasing big-time here, don't remember word for word) one of our greatest needs is the planting of new churches.  If this closure is a symptom of the larger problems within SGM, I pray that the PowersThatBe will take a good, hard, honest look at the "observations" brought before them, and with God's help, repent; correct the issues; seek,  give,  and receive forgiveness for the multitude of sins recounted by those who've been injured-- even taking steps within the legal system if necessary, over situations like Noel's-- and MAKE THINGS RIGHT as far as they possibly can.   We serve the God whose love is big enough to cover every sin.  Come on, SGM, you can DO IT! What I pray for is that NO church will ever have ICABOD written on it's doors.  I would LOVE to have saints like you SGM Refuge folks in my church -- your writings are full of love, grace, and scriptural understanding, laced with kindness even to those with whom you disagree.  Anytime a church closes down, I’m sad.  Years ago, I remember RC Sproul saying that (I’m paraphrasing big-time here, don’t remember word for word) one of our greatest needs is the planting of new churches.  If this closure is a symptom of the larger problems within SGM, I pray that the PowersThatBe will take a good, hard, honest look at the “observations” brought before them, and with God’s help, repent; correct the issues; seek,  give,  and receive forgiveness for the multitude of sins recounted by those who’ve been injured– even taking steps within the legal system if necessary, over situations like Noel’s– and MAKE THINGS RIGHT as far as they possibly can.   We serve the God whose love is big enough to cover every sin.  Come on, SGM, you can DO IT!

What I pray for is that NO church will ever have ICABOD written on it’s doors. 

I would LOVE to have saints like you SGM Refuge folks in my church — your writings are full of love, grace, and scriptural understanding, laced with kindness even to those with whom you disagree. 

]]> By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12902 Canary Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:59:05 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12902 Ellie,  good verses.  To have an opinion is one thing, but to intentionally cause dissent or to hinder someone in his/her faith is different.  I think we all try in our own ways to share our experiences without intending harm to anyone.  There are others who don't step carefully.  Out of love for each other, we should all harness our words, to have a healthy, productive discussion without causing injury to others.   You have always been a good example of that.  So has Gracie, just to name a few more posters.  And Carole's remarkable response to Stephen is a highlight, written with compassion and truth, which shows that the two are able to be expressed together. Jesus was good at that, too. Ellie,  good verses.  To have an opinion is one thing, but to intentionally cause dissent or to hinder someone in his/her faith is different.  I think we all try in our own ways to share our experiences without intending harm to anyone.  There are others who don’t step carefully.  Out of love for each other, we should all harness our words, to have a healthy, productive discussion without causing injury to others.   You have always been a good example of that.  So has Gracie, just to name a few more posters.  And Carole’s remarkable response to Stephen is a highlight, written with compassion and truth, which shows that the two are able to be expressed together.

Jesus was good at that, too.

]]> By: Ellie http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12900 Ellie Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:56:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12900 <strong>Dennis has, in the past, created trouble through his extreme opinions.  He has been banned from this site, before.  If he has truly repented, as he says, then we will see change in his approach.  Until then, I wouldn’t enter in, to debate with him, or respond to his posts. </strong>I'm with you, Canary. A word to the wise.... <a href="http://bible.cc/proverbs/10-13.htm" rel="nofollow">Proverbs 10:13</a> On the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found. <a href="http://bible.cc/romans/16-17.htm" rel="nofollow">Romans 16:17</a> Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. 'Nuff said. Dennis has, in the past, created trouble through his extreme opinions.  He has been banned from this site, before.  If he has truly repented, as he says, then we will see change in his approach.  Until then, I wouldn’t enter in, to debate with him, or respond to his posts.

I’m with you, Canary.

A word to the wise….

Proverbs 10:13 On the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found.

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

‘Nuff said.

]]> By: Ming http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/08/21/%e2%80%9cone-of-the-largest-and-strongest-church-plantings-in-sovereign-grace-ministries%e2%80%99-history%e2%80%9d/comment-page-2/#comment-12899 Ming Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:34:51 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=288#comment-12899 Dennis-- I think you meant Stephen and not Steven. =P Unless you weren't talking to my friend Stephen and you were talking to someone who went by Steven whom I do not know and have no association with. In that case continue and please excuse my interruption. ;) Lol, sorry, I enjoy being difficult sometimes. As I'm sure Stephen would attest to. =P Dennis–
I think you meant Stephen and not Steven. =P

Unless you weren’t talking to my friend Stephen and you were talking to someone who went by Steven whom I do not know and have no association with. In that case continue and please excuse my interruption. ;)

Lol, sorry, I enjoy being difficult sometimes. As I’m sure Stephen would attest to. =P

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