..will have it’s last meeting on August 30th.
Remember this post? The whole deal smelled like a dead fish then, and now it’s belly up.
Proof that you can use all the right words and still be completely man centered.
Little kingdoms of little men. They all fall down.
All,
Thank you for your prayers. Last night at “church family meeting” Roadkill and wife were vindicated of things they had been accused of. They were not responsible for Brent’s removal, nor were they guilty of rumors and lies that had been perpertarated about/ against them. They were not responsible for Brent’s removal.
Yes, plant in Mooresville will close in two weeks. Please pray for ALL involved. In situations such as this, there will always be extreme pain for someone to go through. This is a move forward in the process of healing for some, but then, that will cause pain for those that supported and believed the lies and actions lived out…..We want them healed also.
Lets pray for Brent and family, that they be restored to the wholeness that HE desires for all his children. Lets pray for Mickey as he continues to walk this out. This I am sure, is hard for him, as he and Brent served together for many years. Lets continue to pray for SGM, as this seed of righteousness has been planted, that the roots of this act will spread to other churches/leaders who will need the courage to step out and be HIS servants to others should things like this arise elsewhere.
I know there are those that are skeptical….That is between you are the LORD. I just know for now, there has been a mighty act of GOD graciously received and acted upon by leadership that is pointing in the direction of holiness. My trust is in HIM…not them….
Healing and hope has to start somewhere….perhaps this is it….and it WILL NOT happen overnight….nothing in this world does….Only HE can work an instant miracle!!! So there is hope….in HIM
As long as we put our hope in God and not in Man, we will be on solid foundation. Praying for these wounded sheep. Thank you MiMi and hope and pray God’s healing would stretch out and cover this situation…that an “awakening of the dead” would come and people will be restored their Fahter’s Loving Arms.
WIth Hope in God,
Robyn
Hi Glenn
Mimi,
I will be praying…and yes…I “AM” skeptical!!
Reason being, I know a LOT of people (MANY) that MC, LM, and others (it wasn’t just Brent) damaged. I also know that they were all on the same page and taught the same things in their own ways. They continued to do so until the blogs started having their impact, and they DID NOT seem concerned in the least before the blogs.
God can do a miracle, and He can change hearts. Change typically takes time, and it usually takes drastic events to get people’s attention.
Time will tell if this “particular event” is such, or if it’s just “damage control” for a season. I’ve seen their damage control before. Time, and a change of hearts and attitude among the “sheep” of CrossWay will tell. As I’ve said before, the apples don’t fall far from the tree.
As always, I’m still praying.
This is interesting news. Make a plan to plant a church then pretty quickly retreat from that plan. Of course, SGM leadership apparently didn’t haven any idea or chose to ignore what was going on with Detweiler un until recently. Now the organization has at least two messes on their hands, SGM Chesapeake and this fiasaco.
I guess SGM won’t be “bringing the gospel” to Mooresville for a while.
As Jim pointed out, when one says that it is as if these areas have no good churches or the area has not been preached to like some area of Africa or remote part of South America they are bringing a church to.
AKS
You said it right that time will tell on if this means change is really going to happen at SGM or just another PR stunt.
One thing that is clear, SGM has to be more careful what they do these days since their actions are being reported various places including these blogs.
Even though those still within SGM think the blogs to be evil sources of gossip, without the blogs the leadership of SGM would not be taking the people’s issues/concerns/abuses seriously. There have been people coming to them for years with concerns and these people were kicked out of the churches and/or confronted with thier pride, arrogance, unteachableness, etc. This fact is of great concern to me. Why would “godly” men need blogs to convict them of wrong doing? Why have they not listened to people before the blogs?
Steve240,
You are so right in what you say.
Another quote from “Twisted Scriptures”: ” ‘Jan’ was in prison. In her disciple’s notebook, she wrote: I want to share Jesus with others, but I don’t want them to be in prison with me” (pg.57).
My husband and I felt this way in SGM. If we shared Jesus with someone and then brought them to our sgm church, they too would be in prison. This was after our eyes were beginning to open about the abuses.
Kindred Spirit has skepticism. Perhaps we have all learned a healthy dose of that after our sufferings within the controlling church. I too knew MC, LM, and BD, as well as BP, to name only a few. The apples did NOT fall far from the tree. There is still a whole bunch of leaven to be purged from SGM.
But Mimi is in the heart of it. She was at the meeting. She seems to have come away with her eyes completely opened about the suffering that is going on with the membership. Yet she has hope. That gives me hope. Heck, if you’d told me a year ago that Brent would be shanked, I’d have squacked at you and thrown some birdseed. Never going to happen.
But it did. There is reason to hope for reform. I never thought I’d say this without laughing out the side of my hand. Yeah right! And the world is truly flat, as preached by the Flat Earth Society.
I don’t think I’m cynical, anymore. Thanks, Mimi, for making my hope float.
By the way. Jim, you were right about Brent leaving. You have some reliable sources. Question: Do you think this small sign of reform has any possibility of reaching all the way up to Mr. C.J. himself?
Fred,
I think you ask a good question. Perhaps the answer to why leadership needed the blogs to begin actually making changes is the very reason the bible says to “tell it to the church”. Paul new the power of informing the people, and the loving but stern pressure it would put on those walking in error. Just a thought…
Canary,
I don’t think CJ will ever be taken out of leadership. I think that he will choose his successor.
I think that there is a strong possibility that CJ has no idea how bad things are, which is why I feel the letter campaign is so important.
His response to me as the middle man has been gracious and encouraging.
Canary,
I was not at the meeting…But have been involved since this began over a year ago. Roadkill & wife are our children. We encouraged them in the path and process they took with this, trusting they were hearing from G-D.
Knowing and trusting their hearts for HIM, we on our end, also became proactive contacting leadership and keeping in touch asking our own questions directly to them, never bringing anyone else into the picture.
We had contact concerning this, and with more than our children, never attacking anyone, only asking why behavior like this was allowed, why leadership is not held to its own standard.
As I have stated here before, we have never seen or experienced this in our church, but never doubted situations we have read about. Then our own childen experienced their trial, so similar to what has continually been written here.
I must say also, those in leadership we spoke with and confronted NEVER projected sin on our children or us for confronting. They were always gracious , truthful, and did as they committed to in each meeting with us. Believe me, we are not “special” people in our church. We do not go to C.G. (due to work schedules). We have never been to celebration. We go, hear the word of G-D taught. Hear Jesus lifted up and are encouraged in the joy of HIS redemption and our salvation. Yet, though we are “invisible” per say, have never been ignored or sloughed off if we had a need.
That may be one of the reasons, we have hope, because we have seen good men in this organization representing honesty, compassion and concern. As Jim said, CJ has been gracious to him. So perhaps, we must, need to hold out hope…This was not a simple, sweep under the rug situation. It was Brent’s team that stepped forward asking for the evaluation; more courage shown.
We can never underestimate the power of prayer, nor can we lump all men as the same simply because they belong to the same organization. Just as Jim stated above there may be a strong possibility that CJ was not aware how bad things really are, can there not be a strong possibility that there are good men, seeking the heart of God and walking on HIS path in SGM? I believe there are….I have seen it through all this.
I have to believe that my G-D, being a good G-D, hears the cries of HIS children, and in HIS time and with HIS plan, will ease their pain and wipe their tears away. HE is the one that knows the plans HE has for us…so I must trust that HE being in this, makes this a good thing…with hope for the future…for all involved.
Thank you for your prayers and concern Canary…..You have a heart for HIS heart, what a beautiful picture for one’s eyes to gaze upon
Hmmmm…and CJ won’t come to this blog to read our stories because most of them are anonymous? I and my husband are open to rethinking the letter writing campaign if we really thought it would make a difference. If CJ would only take the first step by reading some of this blog, perhaps we would write personally to him because he has shown some interest in those SGM has left behind. I almost believe that much of the things we discuss could be cleared up if CJ would come here and talk with us. But he won’t. So why would a letter make any difference? I’m just asking for your opinion. Maybe you’ve been clear on this and I missed it.
I don’t believe half of the bad things that are said about him on this blog. Maybe because I think like you do – he can’t possibly know just how bad things are.Or maybe he simply does not believe the stories that have been written here. I don’t believe that he or any of the other leaders have nefarious intentions towards the members of their organization, or that they are in it for the money (except for the salaries they earn tax free). I think CJ sincerely believes what he believes, no matter how dangerous his doctrine is to other believers (the authority doctrine is an example). But if he showed some good faith towards all of us by visiting here, we might feel more able to write him. If he takes some responsibility in all this, and tries to help mend fences, that would go a long way. Trust is the issue, as you well know.
As for his response being gracious and encouraging, does that mean you have talked to him as leader of this blog? Some SGM leaders could charm the shirt right off your back. They know how to sound gracious when they need to. Again, this does not make me trust them. I’m really struggling over this.
Isn’t there some sort of common ground, where CJ and the rest of us could speak to each other without going so private? Isn’t secrecy one of the issues we have spoken of? If CJ’s defense can stand up in the light (though I only speak of the issue of church abuse, not the personal attacks he has received), why not let it be so?
I wish it could be so. Would you and Carole ponder on it?
Canary,
I sent a “Letter to CJ” via email, and asked him to let me know if he received it.
I would have bounced back a quick, “got it-thx!”, but he responded with a gracious note with some encouraging words regarding the subject matter. That’s obviously all I can say-maybe too much, as it was a private email.
There are many people I respect who are not fans of this blog. I understand why they would not choose this forum to communicate.
Considering the content here, I’m always grateful when I receive anything less than hate-mail (I get my share of that) from someone who would not be a fan.
I wonder if there could be a forum where it is public, but only certain, let us say, “respectful” posters are allowed to comment.. Questions can be asked and answered but only include the participants you trust would treat everyone with due courtesy. This way, CJ (or whomever) doesn’t have to worry about being attacked, and sgm survivors do not have to fear giving their precious trust just yet.
I love the Body of Christ. I love, in the Lord, CJ, Brent, and all the believers in SGM. Love could heal all of this. Respectful communication between those involved, kept public but restricted so both parties feel safe, might really open this all up. Surely, if CJ has nothing to hide, and we could put our questions to him for consideration, hearts might be healed.
Somebody in SGM leadership needs to take responsibility for the wounded sheep. I am sure Noel, Esther, Grizzly, Betrayed, and so on could benefit from a bridge being built where we all meet halfway. This isn’t about bearing grudges, but healing a great, gaping wound in some of God’s people.
Okay, some of you might be saying to me, “dream on”. I do tend to be nieve because I believe the best of people until they prove me wrong. I continue to believe that the harmful control and abusive pastoring has not occurred because SGM leaders are pernicious and evil. Most people give their lives to something because they sincerely BELIEVE in it. That doesn’t mean that what they believe is true, or good. CJ truly might not see how dangerous some of the doctrine he backs can be so harmful to so many. Or, perhaps speaking with him via public debate might help change some ways we are thinking that is incorrect.
So, how about some healthy debate with the man responsible for SGM? Wouldn’t that be something?
Canary,
So you’re singing “Imagine” while I’m still thinking about Brent’s church plant and singing “Castles made of sand” by Jimi Hendrix.
“And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually…”
Sorry everyone… I just had a public senior moment…
Jim,
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I must be having “mental-pause”, commonly known as the change of life, ’cause I can’t think of a snappy come-back. But, yes, I’m chirping out “Imagine” as you are watching Brent’s castle wash away into the sea. How funny is that.
Remember how Bill O’Reily kept trying to get Jesse Jackson to come onto his show and answer questions? Well, we wouldn’t be nearly as rough on CJ! We could even slip him the questions that you yourself have chosen from the masses so he can think them over first. We nice people, here. Very nice.
My first question would be something like, “Did you know about Noel and Grizzly? Where do you stand on that issue?”
Too rough?
Mimi,
We both speak from what we have experienced personally. You speak of what you have seen, I speak of what I have seen.
I’m sure it’s confusing when you hear the same men, described completely opposite from what you know. I do not know the hearts of men, or why they do what they do. But I have always found comfort in the fact that God knows, and that He will take care of it…He has never needed my help.
I am not the type to hold grudges, or to be bitter…anyone who knows me personally would testify to such. I’m a very optimistic person and look for the good in people, even those that others have long given up on.
I minister to the casualties whose wounds were inflicted by the same men you speak of. I do not judge these men, I simply care for the wounded. When I look around and see so many folks who have been wounded, and know that wounds were still being inflicted by these men until the impact of the blogs, I think it’s only natural that I feel the skepticism that I feel.
But I still pray, and I pray for these men, just as I pray for those they have hurt. I do not judge. They are all God’s children.
Kindred Spirit,
Please do not think I doubt what you write. I do not personally know the men involved in this, nor the ones you have had contact with. I have simply seen the results of how this has been handled. Results that are different than previous times.
The only men we can refer to are the ones that walked through this with my husband and me these past fifteen months. These leaders always had time to speak with us about this. They listened, read our letters of concern and responded never questioning our children’s actions or our need to understand how this could and did happen. We are not part of Grace and live far away.
With our only point of referance on behavior being our immediate leadership, I have to believe there are wonderful men in SGM that do desire to and walk in glorifying our Jesus through their actions. I cannot impose others feelings and opinions on anyone that has respected our concerns, listened to our fears, encouraged us to pray and supported us in our concern for our children. The biblical (not spiritual) integrity shown us warrants us trusting HIM that this is where HE chooses for us to be.
Believe me, we struggled through this. We fought anger, retribution, and vengeance. Patience was our biggest failure, questioning why this happened and why it was taking so long to be addressed. We had to remind ourselves that HE is sovereign and knew exactly what was going on. We also praised HIM that he found our children worthy of being used to bring glory to HIM…
I DO NOT take lightly anyones pain and pray for each daily as I pray for my children in all this..I will pray specifically that HE fill you with wisdom and healing words as you minister to HIS children that HE brings to your path for restoration…..you must be special to be trusted so by HIM….
I have not taken time for a while to make any comments since my “encounter of the worst kind,” took place 20 years ago this summer. I didn’t want to be accused of “peeing on the tombstone” of Brent or anyone else. But come on…. those of you who think sitting around the campfire holding, hands and singing “kumbaya” with CJ or any of the other leaders of SGM is going to change anything ….
This stuff has been going on for 20 years and all the communication in the world is not going to stop it. It goes on because the leaders (from CJ right on down the ecclesiastical food chain) believe this is the way it is suppose to be done, because it is in the nature of God to turn away from and ostracize all the “imperfect ones.” They treat the sheep like they believe in their hearts God treats those who are imperfect.
I have personally experienced it and have seen them treat their own relatives like scum because they did not measure up to the SGM standards.
Believe it or not, SGM is rotten to the core and the only thing that will fix it is to dig up the roots and burn them. I am not saying ALL people associated with SGM are evil – that would be absurd. I AM saying the root is bitter and toxic and has produced after its kind for more than 20 years. This blog is testimony to its fruit!
To think it will change is naive and “spiritlogically” impossible! I think you will be better off praying that CJ and the rest of his “coven” of leaders judge themselves unworthy to continue to lead the Lord’s sheep into condemnation, despair, and perpetual failures….and just quit …. and go get a job digging ditches, pulling weeds, or driving recycle trucks. (or some other job that would insure they don’t mess someone else’s life up)
God have mercy on them when they stand before God on judgment day…. He no doubt will be more gracious than they ever were.
Thank you for your kind words, Mimi, and I especially appreciate your prayers. They are greatly needed.
By “these men” I’m referring to MC, LM, BD, and others in leadership at CrossWay. Actually, many of the “CrossWay sheep” are just as guilty as “these men” due to the fact that they have been so “well groomed” by them. The pastors have ran a “tight ship” from the very beginning. I am sometimes amazed at how far reaching the damage is.
I am glad your children are at a better place and will continue to pray for them.
Even if CJ did not know what was going on in his churches, he is still responsible. He has been at the helm and he has been making decisions which set the course for this movement. His attitude, beliefs, perceptions, etc. of the pastors’ and apostles’ positions, responsibilities and authority have directly effected every person – both pastor and sheeple in this movement and every case of abuse that has happened. Maybe at some point CJ was left out of the loop but I doubt it, especially in the serious cases.
When you read the blogs, you see the same patterns emerging in story after story and church after church. What is the common thread? Is it not CJ and his group of apostles as well as the pastors’ college? The rhetoric is so similar in SGM churches. Where did this come from? Why do people within the churches say the same things – “better than I deserve” for one? Why is it that throughout the churches (at least many) you rarely hear the name of Jesus Christ but you hear the ”Gospel” and the “Cross” talked about often? It is too similar across the board. It all came from the top and the top is CJ.
The jiggler wonders what is going to happen next.
Perhaps he will return to CCC, the church he started and as senior pastor administrated over during the years of saving and planning to build the wonderful building they are currently in.
Perhaps MC could fire one of the mini me’s currently on staff at CCC. Then Brent could be hired, at a greatly reduced salary, as a handyman or janitor. The hiring could be announced at a family meeting following a pronouncement that Brent had never been called to be a senior pastor.
He could be given ample opportunities to meet with the leadership to discuss his pride, unteachableness, self-centeredness, and contentiousness. Any objections he made would be considered proof that he was, in fact, those things. He would be formally labeled as a proud and forced to wear a scarlet P on his members only jacket. Then MC could preach on how the sin of pride is even greater than the sin of adultery and point at Brent sitting in the front row for emphasis.
Or, perhaps he’ll lock him self in the closet with a dog eared printout of the fifty fruits of pride and try and figure out where it all went wrong.
In piam memorium FriendlyFire
Sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
The jiggler is sorry (sort of) for the members only jacket comment. It was, unnecessary.
Fred, Great points in your above post–Yep, CJ “has been at the helm and he has been making decisions which set the course for this movement.” He is the ‘Captain’ and is responsible for all those on his ship and the dangerous destructive waters he has navigated them all into.
lol…
Jiggler, don’t apologise for the “members only jacket” comment.
IT’S TRUE!!! Those outside of the elite flock of CrossWay (Christians who attend “inferior” churches) are quite aware that they don such outerwear. They’ve had it flashed in their faces for years!
Many of the CrossWay flock are quite proud of it. It’s who they are. Their self-esteem has been quite fragile most of their lives. CrossWay is what sets them above everyone else.
(Sorry for the sarcasm. As you can tell, “elitism” (Pharisaism) makes my blood boil!)
Dear friends,
These are difficult waters to navigate. As believers, we want to walk in love, believing the best, but our trust has been seriously damaged by our first-hand disastrous experiences with PDI/SGM. I am fairly clueless about what you all are talking about in Charlotte right now, but here is my concern and why I am not quite ready to give up what I believe is good, healthy skepticism:
Years after our PDI demise, we had the opportunity to visit a church where the pastor had been a former PDI leader. We had not known him when we were in PDI, but knew he had been involved with them for a season. As we sat in services and listened to the preaching, we found it was, in some ways, too reminescent of the PDI culture. Certain phrases were said, certain PDI cultural oddities were evident, and, in our opinions, some of the same errors were still being propagated. There were some marked differences as well, but the undercurtain was just a little too familiar. This was alarming to us. (It reminds me of what Pilgrim is discussing right now over at survivors regarding a new couple at his/her church who are former SGMers and how they are trying to introduce CJ writings on small groups to the folks there.)
I guess my point is- it is possible to have been in PDI, have had some sort of disagreement which would cause you to leave, yet STILL harbor some of the same errors that are being taught there. I know for myself, even years after we were kicked out, I still held on to erroneous, graceless teachings we received about parenting. It was a painful and humbling experience for me to lay still and let the Lord dig in and yank out the errors that I held onto so fiercely, believing they were truth.
If I, as a lowly member of PDI, had to undergo such painful spiritual surgery, what will CJ and the others have to undergo to finally be rid of the errors they have fiercely held onto and taught around the nation, believing they were truth? How difficult will it be for them to own up to the fact that some of their “right doctrine” is wrong and has left a wake of injuries spanning decades? What will true, getting-to-the-bottom repentance look like for these men? These are not light matters, yet if God has brought us through, He can do so for the rest.
Praying to that end,
Gracie
Well said, Gracie!
You express what so many feel in an eloquent and grace-filled manner.
Thank you!
Friendly Fire,
I didn’t see your comment earlier.
You and I would be “chopping off ears” and Gracie would be helping to mend them.
AKS:
Unfortunately the jiggler was not taking pot shots at a “members only Jacket,” a jacket only members can wear. The jiggler was referring to a jacket by the clothing design company Members Only. One may remember them from the 80′s. No natural fibers, glossy sheen, epaulet things on the shoulders.
The jiggler suspects, but has no proof that these are still quite popular among sgm members. The jiggler suspects their are parties where men get together expressly for the purpose of wearing their MO jackets. Perhaps this is why the jiggler never quite fit in at CCC. He does not have a MO jacket.
He does, however have a jean jacket (non acid wash) which he wears frequently and is confident will once again be “in.” Any derogatory comments about said jean jacket will be treated as declaration of war and hostilities will ensue. The jiggler can dish it out. The jiggler cannot take it.
Does the jiggler still need to apologize?
Sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Gracie:
You said:
“If I, as a lowly member of PDI, had to undergo such painful spiritual surgery, what will CJ and the others have to undergo to finally be rid of the errors they have fiercely held onto and taught around the nation, believing they were truth? How difficult will it be for them to own up to the fact that some of their “right doctrine” is wrong and has left a wake of injuries spanning decades? What will true, getting-to-the-bottom repentance look like for these men? These are not light matters, yet if God has brought us through, He can do so for the rest.”
The jiggler had not thought about things from this particular angle and appreciates your insight. It is a heavy thing. The jiggler is reminded of the importance of the body. It’s good to have brothers and sisters remind him of deeper things while he is working so diligently to poke at shallower things in an effort to cheer.
The jiggler cannot cry, so he laughs, because that is how he deals with stress.
The jiggler thanks Gracie again for her perspective.
Sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Yep, I remember them, Jiggler!
Lol…you’re good! You’re REAL good!
We all need some “cheer.”
Thanks!
(And don’t worry about anyone slamming your jean jacket. Denim is ALWAYS in.)
Jiggler… I’m just curious about the jean jacket… is it one that has the band around the bottom and the big snaps at the cuffs? If so, I can (sort of) understand your optimism and your hopefulness that it will, indeed, come back in style. (Those were pretty cool “back in the day”.)
But if it’s one of those that give the appearance of a “wannabe suit jacket”… well, you may want to re-think your stance (as those weren’t even cool back when they were supposed to be cool)
I’m just sayin’, is all.
***This is not… I repeat… NOT a derogatory comment, and therefore NOT a declaration of war. Just trying to help a brother (or sister) out is all…
Aw Kindred and Jiggler,
I did not mean any correction toward either of you at all! I think you both are great! I still get my dander up at times over all this stuff. Not too long ago, I had to ask Kris to delete one of my not-so-gracious messages. Sigh.
And Jiggler, I LOVE to laugh! Humor is truly a healing device. Your “hot wife” comments cracked me up the other day at a time when I really, really needed to laugh.
My comment was more geared to helping those who may not have experienced the abuse we have understand why we are not jumping up and down in glee about changes in SGM. Just yet. When I say these are not light matters, I don’t mean we can’t use a little levity in our communication. I mean, these are not matters you can just put a bandaid on and hope they’ll go away. They have to be dug out. For these guys to crack open the vault where they hold their “right doctrine” and let the wind of the Lord blow away the dross will take much humility, ironically. The risk for these guys is HUGE, but the rewards on the other side are ETERNAL.
Oh, and I meant “undercurrent” in my previous post, not “undercurtain”. Sheesh.
Ooooooh Kindred! We must have been typing at the same time… (How are you doing, Kindred? I hope all is well in your world, my friend!)
Just to clarify: I am NOT criticizing denim! I love denim! I pretty much live in denim! (Just not a denim jacket, at least, not at this time… but, like Jiggler, I remain hopeful that I will indeed wear it again!)
Carole: Correct regarding the jean jacket. Although the jiggler is envisioning a suit, made entirely out of denium. The jiggler sees potential. The jiggler likes.
Gracie:
1) The jiggler does not like the word dander.
2) You will refer the jiggler’s wife at all times as smokin’t hot. Never just hot. Not smoking hot. Smokin’ hot. You dig?
3) The jiggler was moved by your post, or at lest the section of it he quoted. It was provocative, and struck the jiggler as something he had not considered. No need to clarify or explain. You have made the jiggler better which is good, all good.
Sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Hey Carole. I say we all pull our jean jackets out and bring back an old fad!
I knew you weren’t, Gracie.
God made me an “ear chopper”…unfortunately it’s the only thing that gets some folks attention. It’s kinda hard to deny the fact that your ear’s been chopped off!
Jiggler,
Ha ha ha ha! My sincerest apologies and please let me rephrase! Your smokin’ hot wife comments made me laugh. Better?
And I’m sorry you don’t care for the word dander. I’m afraid that’s how southern gals politely say… I’m pissed! Us fine, southern ladies would neh-ver speak is such a crass mahn-ner. Gotta keep up that southern chahrm, ya’ll.
Hi Carole! Great to see you here. Love you, gal!
It’s a good day. Carole posts (!) ( who is RED hot, BTW, which far exceeds smokin’ hot), jiggler adds his mirth to the mix, and continues to refer to himself in the third person, Gracie once again lives up to her name, and Kindred ads her unique mix of very sharp (as in smart) and witty commentary to the mix.
it’s a good day..
I’ll have to ask Carole what a dander is… whatever it is, I would think that NASCAR fans such as jiggler would have it. Maybe he has it, but it’s hidden under his denim jacket.
BTW, jigg, leather never goes out of style, but like denim, Jim, Carole, Porsches, but not NASCAR, it just gets cooler with age.
Of course in East Coast Central Florida we don’t wear jackets too often, unless it dips under 70, then we dress for snow.
“Perhaps this is why the jiggler never quite fit in at CCC. He does not have a MO jacket.
He does, however have a jean jacket (non acid wash) which he wears frequently and is confident will once again be “in.” Any derogatory comments about said jean jacket will be treated as declaration of war and hostilities will ensue. The jiggler can dish it out. The jiggler cannot take it.”
ROFLOLOLOL!!
Gracie, Thankyou for your post–quite a gut-wrencher to think of “what will true getting to the bottom repentance look like for these men”…..
Yes, this has been a pleasant day of posts— so good to share in laughter–
And of course—out West—Denim ALWAYS rules!!
“Church Lover”
Your posts are in moderation, as you’re trying to correct my guests. You don’t know them, and they haven’t asked for your opinion.
I sent you an email, asking you to respect my guests, but to feel free to say anything you like to and about me. That offer stands, but use a real email address next time.
SMTP error from remote server after transfer of mail text:
host b.mx.mail.yahoo.com[X]:
554 delivery error: dd Sorry your message to XXXXXXX@yahoo.com cannot be delivered. This account has been disabled or discontinued [#102]. – mta122.mail.re3.yahoo.com
Does that gobbledy-gook mean that “Church Lover” provided a fake email address?
Say it ain’t so!
Hey Jim, I just posted over at “My Story”. When I submitted it, I saw the moderation thing and then my post went through without the post! Is it lost forever? Say it isn’t so!
Hey Canary!! ( I owe you an email! I haven’t forgotten you, it’s just been busy here!)
Your post is there… it went into moderation, but it’s intact! No worries!
HI GRACIE!! I haven’t forgotten you, either, my dear friend!… I am trying to catch up on everything, but it seems I’m just falling further and further behind!! :BIGsigh:
Kindred… I’ll wear mine if you wear yours! Let’s wait until the temperature dips below 90 though, okay?
Carole! (AKA Red hot wife!
Great to “see” you again…..
Sent you an email last night…..but understand you are busy!
Looking forward to catching up.
Hey Cardinal!!!
I got it!… and, if my new puppy gives me half a second to get ANYTHING done (other than feeding, walking, and playing “squeaky toy” and “tug”, and, of course, “I’m gonna bite your ankles every time you get near my mouth”, and the ongoing cleaning-the-spit-off-the-glass-doors), I’m (tentatively!) planning on an email session tomorrow morning.
I miss you all so much!
signed… “Red Hot Wife” (Jim is GREAT for my ego!!) HaHa!
ETA: Gibson graduated from obedience class last week! YAY!! Although, upon arriving for the class, he #1… decided to jump out of the car before it was completely stopped (he wasn’t hurt, no worries!), then, after Jim got him back in the car and proceeded into the parking space, #2 he jumped onto the trunk of the car and “surfed” in. The one problem with having a convertible…
I think he only received his diploma because it was already printed, and they didn’t want him to come back for another round of classes… :-/ Jim was proud… HaHa!!
I think he only received his diploma because it was already printed, and they didn’t want him to come back for another round of classes…
Ha! Sounds like little Ricky’s Dog, Fred (I Love Lucy). Lucy took him to obedience school, and it just didn’t stick! But oh, the humor of it all…
Jim,
Why do you think they did not “announce” the closing of the doors of this church or the stepping down of Brent D. Back in the day they (at least) would let you know when a “Leader” was “stepping down”. Not to be sarcastic or disrepectful, I just truly was surprised when friends of mine (still in SGM) did not even know, and they are on the east coast. I just find it odd that someone as respected and “raised up” as Brent nothing was said.
Maybe I am wrong, but friends in the Chesapeake didnt know and friends in Denver didn’t know. It is strange how the “family of Churches” only is presented or acts this way when it “blesses the sheep”. It just bothers my Spirit something awful when I SEE and KNOW the hypocrisy. Example: Strong messages and “support” systems set up for accountability and then when challenged, it is always the “bringers” arrogance and not the “Leader’s”. Or how about how strong “Submission” is “encouraged”, but yet if a family leaves SGM and the wife wants to return, how they are counseled to continue “appealing” and “lovingly correct him for his own arrogance in thinking he knows better than the Pastors” etc. The double-mindedness is amazing and it does make me angry when I look over the last 20plus years and see the things I “submitted” too thinking I was honoring God and loving my husband. Sad how biblical truths, meant to show us God’s love for us, are somehow twisted into something so counterfeit. I know my ex-husband would agree too. Even though he has been “restored” in Denver, he can at the very least “see” so much it has been very difficult for him to sit thru it every Sunday. It is just so hard to stomach and hard not to scream at people to opent heir eyes and yes, I dare to say, be delivered. I remember a comment by someone (BY maybe?) about how offensive it is to hear that. I would say, “why?” AS people who have walked away because of something that has happened to them, something they have been a part of, seeing the darkness of it all and in obedience and gratefullness to God, walk away. I could understand the offense if Strangers were just picketing SGM, but to take offense at others pains and joys of “being set free”, that was hard for me to read. In the end….the family of church’s is only when it works best for “The Sytem”. Man it sounds harsh, but Jesus wasnt too gracious in speaking the truth…unless He was speaking to a Woman. HUh….think on that. I just thought of that. Jesus always was gentle and compassionate to women and harsher towards men in confronting them. What I wouldnt have done for a little more compassion during those days of Denver, my days of Egypt.
Robyn
Robyn,
Hugs from an empathetic Canary.
Robyn
That is interesting that so many SGM members have no knowledge of Brent Detwiler stepping down. I am sure that they are just as uninformed about the “one of the largest and strongest” church plants shutting down so quickly.
Of course informing members of bad news like this would hurt SGM’s “PR Machine” that a number of people on the list mention. It is sad that they don’t share both sides but is typical practice. For example, as I share on my blog, Josh Harris hasn’t widely shared (such on his blog) the problems he saw occurring at his own church with singles that obviously his approach caused. Conversely, Harris was quick to point out all the “defects” he sees with dating.
Stephen
Welcome to the blog. I am sure that this has all been quite hard on you and your family. I believe Brent D is only the 2nd person who was on the apostolic team to in addition to stepping down from the apostolic team also stepping down as pastor (Tomczak was the other one). My prayers are for you and your family.
Writers here have mentioned that when North Coast Church left the PDI fold in the 90s, there was no announcement made to all PDI-church members. Therefore, SGM is following tradition by keeping the Mooresville dissolution a secret.
RE Jiggler’s comment about Brent being hired-on as a janitor and confessing his pride, etc. to the leadership: Mahaney rode Brent for years about Brent’s pride and arrogance, and we must assume Brent always bowed his head in shame, nodded and confessed that he was a pride-filled man. So he has this routine down pat — what would be the benefit. To continue the ’60s references, it would be for Brent “Meet the new boss/Same as the old boss.”
All of which raises the old question: if these leaders are *so* filled with stinkin’ pride and other dreadful-sin patterns, how has any of them been allowed to remain as a leader? (Beginning with Mahaney himself??) Why not replace them with people who are *not* “the worst sinner I know”? There are such people around — people who show the real fruit of Christian maturity in their lives. I knew many men who were more qualified to be shepherds of the flock than some of the crew leading the church I belonged to.
Obviously, the existence and continuation of specific sin patterns in specific leaders has been less important to Mahaney, than bending the knee to all of his pronouncements, laughing at all of his jokes, agreeing with him in every area of theology and doctrine, etc. etc. And the loyal, loving sheep have suffered much for this error.
Keep-
1971
The jiggler is not the worst sinner he knows. He knows three people that are worse. He also knows 1,497 people who are holier than he is.
The jiggler also disputes the claim that if he were present at the crucifixtion of Christ, he would be shouting “crucify him” with the crowd. A claim made repeatedly while he was in attendance at a sg church. Maybe he would but then again maybe not.
Generally speaking the jiggler pulls for the underdog. It is quite possible that he would have been yelling for them to release Jesus. Especially if he was at the party where Jesus brought out the the good stuff long after everyone else was tanked.
Of course the jiggler also believes true love is only possible in a world where choices are meaningful. What does he know? (Sorry Wayne.)
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Carole,
I haven’t read much of the posts yet but I just had to comment on the puppy antics. Hahaha I’m laughing because that’s all I’ve been doing!! My 15 week old golden, Kylie, when she’s not bothering the older one, grabbing toilet paper rolls, spilling hers and Cadi’s water, standing at the door to be let out for the 16th time, she’s sleeping!! I’m so tired but I love it! Sorry for this in the middle of your discussions.
The jiggler knows exactly 1500 people.
Jim
August 24th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
The jiggler knows exactly 1500 people.
And we know he’s a fan of Ted Nugent
I like the jiggler. Anyone who can find humor in this has my vote.
And, as a side note, I was also always a bit perplexed at my lack of agreement on the “you’d have been yelling crucify with the crowd” teachings. I, too, tend to root for the underdog and have never really believed that I’d be shouting to crucify – obviously there were those who were not – but, I would never have voiced my disagreement, that would have been prideful. Bleh.
I like jiggler too. I’m not sure if he’s a fan of Uncle Ted, or if this is another one of his bandwagon deals. I sorta think he’s counting my friends into his total friend count.
Jiggler-time to prove your mettle. What’s the name of Ted’s hunting show?
Ok- you can find that on google.
What is Ted’s favorite key?
Hi Pam! Believe me, I’ve thought of you often, my friend!!!
Through all of the obedience training (of course, THAT was more for Jim than Gibson! :BIG GRIN:), the chewed up glasses (Yep!… he really did!), the sandwich that “disappeared” when I looked away for a SECOND!, the stash of stuff he’s not supposed to have (that doesn’t even belong to him) under my bed… it goes on and on! But I’m loving it! 
I know that at the end of the “puppy-ness”, Gibson will turn out to be a “Cadi”! It’s all good…
Free for All and Stranglehold are both in E so the jiggler is going to go with E for a thousand Alex.
The jiggler has much more to say about messing with the jiggler but has to cook dinner for the little jigglers.
I’ll be back (typed with and Arnold Brownschwager accent)
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Sorry jig… Stranglehold is in Am.
Ted’s show is “Spirit of the Wild”-the best hunting show on the planet.
..just because it’s Ted..
im transcript 08242009 17:56
jiggler: dude – the jiggler has someone busting his chops about ted nugent, any idea what his favorite key is?
raindawg: um, “E”?
jiggler: is that the correct answer or does the “um” imply that you have no idea what the jiggler is asking?
raindawg: it’s an educated guess. covered two of his songs; they were in E. Free for All and Stranglehold.
jiggler: you rock. \m/ >.< \m/
*sigh*
The jiggler humbly acknowledges that he should have consulted Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem, because it has all the answers (except 42). Instead he contacted one of his good friends (one of the 1,497) who is the only person he knows who actually played in a cover band.
*sigh*
The jiggler retracts the previous comment regarding having more to say about messing with the jiggler. Evidently messing with the jiggler is relatively easy and should be attempted frequently, by everyone over the age of six.
*sigh*
The jiggler also acknowledges that Jim could be full of baloney. Unfortunately the jiggler gave up music when he broke his recorder in 1981 and is therefore incapable of detecting the presence of said baloney.
*sigh*
HEY LOOK! It’s SGM and they are being really really really mean!
Attention deflected. Crisis averted. Street cred restored. The jiggler re-assumes his rightful place in the world. All right.
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Sorry jig, not a fair contest. My band played at least 10 Ted songs.
Maybe your friend’s band’s favorite key was E.
ROFLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
……ssssssssssssssso, Jiggler, how was dinner?
(just helping to continue to divert attention for ya….)
For the record, I’ve communicated with jiggler offline. Jiggler knows I’m just kidding around. Jiggler knows he should not have compared me to a NASCAR “driver”.
Jiggler also knows that he’s an extremely welcome addition to the conversation here.
The jiggler was reading this morning in Zephaniah. Ok, the jiggler was reading a couple of targeted verses in Zephaniah. The jiggler does not want to give the impression that he frequently reads long passages of Zephaniah.
Specifically chapter three, starting with the verse that reads “our God is mighty to save” in the niv. The jiggler prefers the nkjv but uses the niv whenever possible to stick it to the esv lovers. This particular verse is the title of Hillsong song which was sung in church on Sunday which drew the jiggler’s attention to it.
Verse 18, in the nkjv reads “I will gather those who sorrow over the appointed assembly, who are among you, to whom its reproach is a burden.” This for some reason struck a chord (if the jiggler new anything about chords he would say it sounded like the E chord) with the jiggler. Perhaps because a lot of this discussion involves sorrowing over the appointed assembly along with the consequential burdens.
The passage continues with promises of restoration which the jiggler found encouraging. The jiggler also found the quote “when the cause is eliminated, the effects will cease” in a commentary about the verses. This also was encouraging.
The jiggler offers this for whatever it’s worth to whomever might see something in it worth whatever. The jiggler is not insinuating that sgm leadership is afflicting people and will be dealt with by God. Although, there are promises that affliction will be dealt with, the crooked made straight and formerly afflicted people appointed for praise. (The jiggler does not know if these promises are only for Jews. He doesn’t care. He’s taking them, come what may.)
The jiggler would like to deal in lead (did you know Steve McQueen was saved in the last years of his life?) but today, he’s trying to deal in hope. ”We deal in hope” just doesn’t sound as cool as “we deal in lead.”
The jiggler likes Ellie because she appreciates his wit.
The jiggler maintains that Jim is in fact Jeff Burton or if not, is missing one heck of an opportunity to be a celebrity impersonator. If the jiggler intended to insult Jim he would have said that he was the little, ford loving, Kurt Busch.
Chevy rules.
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
Jim thinks “we deal in hope” is cool as heck.
Hey Jim, Betrayed posted last on “My Story”, but the post is not there, just the name. Could you check it out? Thanks!
Jiggler….
I have a feeling that Ellie is not the only one who appreciates your humor and contributions. Humor has been our link to sanity for quite a while now too.
With appreciation,
Well, it looks final. Brent’s ‘church” web site is no longer available. Click here
I pray that the real people of God, who were part of that “church,” will not be scattered into discouragement, but will rather be encouraged to seek LIFE in HIM alone because that is the only place LIFE can be found anyway. Thank you father for purging where purging is right and needed. Restore those who may have become intoxicated with power and prestige; draw them back to yourself, where life and hope reside!
AMEN, G.D. So be it.
From what I recall, at least some people were selling their houses and moving to where this new church plant was (even though it wasn’t that far from the existing Charlotte SGM Church). Assuming these people are still wanting to be part of SGM, I am sure this creates a problem for them. Now they will have to commute back to where the existing SGM Church is. If they choose to move back, that will be costly.
You’re right…some folks did sell their houses (many of them in Highland Creek aka CrossWay-ville). and move right up there near the church.
Fortunately, this being a tough time for the housing market, many were unable to sell their houses. There were some already living in the Mooresville area.
That’s good for them. It must all ready be rough enough on the church plant team as it is. Selling a house these days is no picnic.
What I found strange about this church “plant” is that it was supposedly to reach Mooresville and Kannapolis. I went to Google maps and Mooreville, Kannapolis, and where the existing SGM Church is located form almost a triangle each being roughly 30 minutes or so from each other.
I wonder why they thought a “plant” in Mooresville would help reach Kannapolis better than where their existing church was? Guess that doesn’t really matter now since it has ended.
Funny, Robyn, I always looked at my time in Denver as my Egypt time also.
Teh Ted. He rocks. Shoots and cooks also. What’s not to love?
All I can think is that what is built on the sand will come crumbling down, what is built on a sure foundation will stand.
keepinstep
Writers here have mentioned that when North Coast Church left the PDI fold in the 90s, there was no announcement made to all PDI-church members. Therefore, SGM is following tradition by keeping the Mooresville dissolution a secret.
Keepinstep, you are wrong about SGM keeping Mooreseville and Brent a secret. We had a church meeting in Florida and it was brought up.
Jim, I appreciate your tone in your writing and in looking forward to this bringing about positive change.
Jim said” I promised our readers over a year ago that I would expose abuse of authority within SGM. I promised that I would (loudly) call for reform. I also promised our readers that should reform occur, I would chronicle evidence of reform with a grateful heart.
I commend the local leadership of Grace, the SGM pastors who were involved in this endeavor, and I commend Brent for doing the right thing.
I can only see this as one of many very positive signs of change within SGM. God is good! ”
Mimi’s prayer was excellent (hers is the first post at the top of the page). For those that missed it, scroll back to the top. As for me and my house we will join Mimi and continue to pray.
We sure haven’t heard about the Mooresville church closing at the FFX church. Even when I asked a friend at the Charlotte church about Brent resigning, her response was one of “how did you find out?” Still secretive.
Steve 240,
Not that it does really matter now like you said but I think I can shed some light on that for you. The current location GCC was meeting wasn’t where they hoped. The GCC leadership team was actively looking for land in a more central situation to the three cities.
In order to further understand you’d really have to be familiar with the area and the plans for development. Years from now the three cities will really become more like one large city.
The thinking behind the plant is not much different then say having two churches in Orlando… just advanced planning.
Hey gang-
Our traffic is driven by buzz. While google’s our friend, most people come here based on word of mouth.
Stephen is posting here. That’ll create buzz. As it does, I’d ask that we put ourselves in his shoes and not overload him with comments or questions. He posted his email address, and offline is always the best way to communicate.
While I would enjoy (probably too much) arguing with 20 people at once, I think I’m wired differently than most.
This is not a correction to anyone here-I do that offline, but a request moving forward.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program….
Free Indeed wrote:
Ted. He rocks. Shoots and cooks also. What’s not to love?
Me: Yes he does!!!! I got to see him him live a few years ago – great show!!! The thing that I like best about his hunting is that he USES all of what he kills. He doesn’t just hunt to go kill something, he makes sure he USES all of the resources God has provided. He and his family live off of what he kills.
I have a HUGE issue with hunting just to kill and put a “trophy” on your wall. If you TRULY using the resources and enjoy the hunt, great. If you doing the hunt just to KILL and only to get the enjoyment of the KILL, then you are wasting God’s resources……
Stephen – I can understand how though it is when you whole life has been SGM (and PDI prior). Everything you have been taught and the way you were raised is SGM. I really hope and pray you start asking the hard questions that those who have left have asked.
Jim,
In regards to your 1:11 – good, encouraging words.
Stephen,
How is your dad doing through these times of reflection? What is he doing? How is he processing the last few months and even further back? Is he angry, thankful, stunned, or viewing it in some other way? I pray that these events will draw him closer than ever to the Lord Jesus and that your dad will find that even these times will work together for good. I pray that your dad will stay away from any kind of organized, vocational leadership. IMHO that would only impede real healing.
Stephen,
I do know your Dad. He seems to have raised a fine son. I am one of those here who agree with Jim/Carole that all the doctrine in SGM is not bad, just parts of it that give so much authority to a few men, taking on more than God has given them, which leads to terrible abuses down the chain of command. For instance, if you read the book “Who Is Your Covering” by Frank Viola, you will have an in-depth explanation of what the scriptures mean in the Greek dealing with authority in leadership. Also, “Twisted Scriptures” will give you a better idea of what others here have suffered.
The dog talk certainly isn’t sin, as my dog is faster, smarter, and bigger than your dog.
Ellie, good verses. To have an opinion is one thing, but to intentionally cause dissent or to hinder someone in his/her faith is different. I think we all try in our own ways to share our experiences without intending harm to anyone. There are others who don’t step carefully. Out of love for each other, we should all harness our words, to have a healthy, productive discussion without causing injury to others. You have always been a good example of that. So has Gracie, just to name a few more posters. And Carole’s remarkable response to Stephen is a highlight, written with compassion and truth, which shows that the two are able to be expressed together.
Jesus was good at that, too.
Pride, arrogance, and superiority are evidences (if one is a Christian) of walking in the flesh, not the Spirit. The antidote to that is walking in the Spirit, NOT trying harder to repress those specific things or any other evidences of the flesh.
Again, as mentioned yesterday, walking in the flesh is humanity living independently of God, and walking in the Spirit is humanity walking in total dependence on Him. Similarly, when in a dark room, we can either scream and complain or turn on the antidote to darkness–LIGHT. If we’re in a cold room (assuming we are current with our electric bill), we can change that by turning on the heat. Many organized “churches” and us as individuals, navel gaze at our works of the flesh, trying to repress and hide them, instead of, turning on the light, turning on the heat, or in this case, walking in the Spirit. Gal 5:16 But I say,walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
Most “churches,” that I’ve been part of, especially the SGM ones, has focused on sin management. I.e more conferences, more accountability, more seminars, more teaching, and so on. Some of that is an attempt to Christianize the flesh, and it NEVER works inside where it matters. Oh we can get people to conform to almost anything and look good, but the “fruit” is rotten on the branch. The flesh cannot be Christianized. The flesh is the branch unattached to the vine, often looking pretty, but destined to die and produce nothing.
______ has, in the past, created trouble through his extreme opinions. He has been banned from this site, before. If he has truly repented, as he says, then we will see change in his approach. Until then, I wouldn’t enter in, to debate with him, or respond to his posts.
I’m with you, Canary.
A word to the wise….
Proverbs 10:13 On the lips of the discerning, wisdom is found.
Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
‘Nuff said.
Anytime a church closes down, I’m sad. Years ago, I remember RC Sproul saying that (I’m paraphrasing big-time here, don’t remember word for word) one of our greatest needs is the planting of new churches. If this closure is a symptom of the larger problems within SGM, I pray that the PowersThatBe will take a good, hard, honest look at the “observations” brought before them, and with God’s help, repent; correct the issues; seek, give, and receive forgiveness for the multitude of sins recounted by those who’ve been injured– even taking steps within the legal system if necessary, over situations like Noel’s– and MAKE THINGS RIGHT as far as they possibly can. We serve the God whose love is big enough to cover every sin. Come on, SGM, you can DO IT!
What I pray for is that NO church will ever have ICABOD written on it’s doors.
I would LOVE to have saints like you SGM Refuge folks in my church — your writings are full of love, grace, and scriptural understanding, laced with kindness even to those with whom you disagree.
Yes, it seems they have pretty much “sanitized” their ranks at SG headquarters!
I remember when we left our SG “church.” Our names and identification (pictures) and contact info were removed within days, so others couldn’t contact us who didn’t already have our info. In one way, it made the break feel cleaner; on the other hand, we had a sense of betrayal and isolation as well. But all is well now. Their is LIFE in the New Covenant outside the camp!
Hey GD,
A verse that the Lord used in my darkest hours of PDI aftermath was “Let us go to Him, outside the camp, bearing the disgrace He bore.” When I was shunned, when folks who were formerly my friends actually seemed afraid of me, when I felt the walls go up and my heart about to break, I would go to Him, outside the camp ( WAY outside), and He was there.
He was there! I’ll never forget that.
Gracie,
You are so right! He is there ready to assure us that He is crazy about us and all that is worth having is found in HIM!!!!
The jiggler is actively following Canary’s advice and doing his best to harness his words and formulate his posts in such a way that they contribute to a healthy and happy discussion without causing injury to others.
That being said the jiggler confesses that he too enjoys arguing with 20 people at once and is actively trying to figure out how to start such an argument without actually getting caught starting said argument.
The jiggler appreciates the appearance of Stephen and ______ because it may now be possible.
The jiggler is glad that GCC closed. The jiggler thinks it’s a good thing. Some people are going to be hurt in the short term and the jiggler is sorry for them, but they will be better off in the long term. Amputation is sometimes the only way to stop the spread of infection. The jiggler knows enough of what went on to believe this to be true. Many who left on the church plant were of the opinion that CCC was too loose or on its way to becoming to loose. Can you imagine that? Not enough control, we need more. This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change.
They wanted tight and they got it. In spades.
“This was confirmed to the jiggler by a CCC pastor who mentioned to him that he should consider staying at CCC because once the planters left, the culture would probably change.”
Ahhh…there’s that word again…”change.”
Uhh…many of us know the pastors at CrossWay. Is this pastor trying to say that Brent is the reason they’ve been so controlling all these years? Because that’s a lie. Granted, Brent was “over-the-top” when it came to control, the poster child for sure; but those other guys like control, too.
As a matter of fact, I can take Brent’s obvious “in-your-face” control better than I can take their subtle, deceptive control. You know where you stand with Brent…what you see is what you get. But that deceptive/manipulative control…now that’s some EVIL stuff! Hard to detect at first because it appears so “genuine, compassionate, and loving.”
Knowing these pastors’ STRONG personalities, I don’t think anyone’s going to buy into ”the devil (Brent) made me do it.” (I’m NOT calling Brent “the devil”, simply making a point.)
Brent’s guilty, that’s for sure! But these other guys are no saints, let me assure you. They would be HORRIFIED if they were told folks had tape recordings of the things they’ve said to them over the years. Absolutely horrified! What’s even more sickening is the “ever so humble and caring” attitude with which they condemned them. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard folks walk away from a meeting with MC and say, “he comes across as such a humble, compassionate man, and he seemed GENUNINELY interested in what I had to say; but somehow I walked away feeling so condemned.”
Like I said…give me an “in-your-face” kind of guy ANY DAY!!
Well said, Kindred Spirit. With Brent and the”old guard” of TAG/PDI and so on though, I think they just plain think they are right, and if they could just get everyone else to see it their (right) way, Christianity will be good. The problem, again, is that “strong arming” people to conform to “right” at best only improves externals, so you have a lot of people falling in line with whatever the “leader” considers “right.” That is why there is so much emphasis in SGM on reading the right “approved” books, going to the right conferences, required to attend care groups, which is only an extension of the “leader,” and so on. In my early days in SGM, I remember ignoring red flags because I thought it was just me. But as time went on and I saw up close and personal control, we walked away. As I look back, I am embarrassed at how naive I was, but it is hard to sniff it out when things are so well sanitized.
Jiggler,
Your 10:53 – HA HA HA HA HA HA!
That was my laugh for today. NOW, be good…( saying this with “tongue in cheek” ’cause I really don’t want you to stop horsing around – it’s too fun).
______ – you are correct about sgm putting you into a box. They will hold it over you head for the rest of your natural life. Can you imagine if spouses did that to each other? What kind of relationship would they have? How would it survive? The one that constantly beat down over an “issue” would eventually leave. In the meantime, they would just suffer from severe depression and told it was their “sin” causing their issue and just to “submit” to their authority. But, that is what sgm does to the flock.
i stumbled on to this web site looking for a church to attend, my family and I have recently left our church of 14 years because of alot of this same complaints that i have read here. It was a reformed church holding to alot of the teachings as sgm w/o the charismatic. I have come to the the conclusion after 3 years of researching and obtaining counsel from other christians out side the reformed teaching w/o telling why we were looking for a new church just inquiring about the way there elders operate and what fellowship there was not letting on that we were concerned . “we were just looking for fellowship for our teenagr daughter”. so no red flags were raised. We have seen many in our old church hurt and cast out for not submitting to elder rule ,being arrogant for not following counsel (even in physical abuse), all under the guise that reapproach was being brought upon the church. The same attitude toward nonrerormed family members too instead of trying to show them the love of Christ , you dont Have fellowship with them until they have been elected . My conclusion and only my opinion I am not judge God is , reformed teaching claims to give God the glory but takes out all the grace.I guess they forget that they to were once on that side of the gulf . I know our nation has lost much of its reverence for God but the REformed churches have left there first love and look down on others as not teaching the gospel, if it looks ,taste,and feels like an apple , it probably is, Pharisees. We still love and pray for our brethren we would have fellowship with them if they would us but they think we died I guess. No one has called or returned our calls since we dropped our membership, we left on good terms no one even knew we were questioning things , it was a shock to the elders when we dropped . MY POINT BEING WE WERE not making noise or gossiping we had just observed from the side lines , my husband was a deacon so he knew a little more than your ” average member”. I cant speak for all reformed churches just the ones in the assocation were apart of, but as far as the reformed having compassion for the lost , now that we are out of it I can see how far off they are in being Christ like and going among and eating and conversing with sinner outside there gate, sure they converse with the ones among there gate because there elect sinners and not all are elect. I dont want to cause any to stumble so do as the bereans do and check all your taught with the scriptures , as God has given us elders in the Church to watch and Rule over us when they are doing asChrist did. Those that teach will be held accountable to a higher answer and God is faithful , HE WILL NEVER LEAVE NOR FORSAKE HIS BRIDE. He is faithful and chastises his children and always welcomes them back with loving arms and gather them under His wings. Pray, pray, pray, read,read,read…….. staying in communion with the father is the only way to know His will. Bitterness can become a huge root that grows deep before you know it, its a weed that grows fast and furious and before you know its a tree that has grown, that is very hard to uproot. pray for those on both sides so the root will be cut off. We prayed have no more bitterness and are in church that loves the saved and the unsaved. ITS NOT A PERFECT cHURCH because were there, but when that great trumpet is heard on that great day the we will all Be THE pERFECT CHURCH.
God Bless and you will perserve and be more refined when your brought through fire.