Never having been one who was afraid to say “I told you so“, I’m happy to report that Brent has resigned.
You did the right thing, Brent.
I see this as SGM’s system working, although very slowing in this case. I’m sketchy on the details, but I hope that SOMEONE in SGM’s leadership followed Paul’s instructions to Timothy. (1 Tim 5:19-20)
UPDATE-July 28.
1.”I told you so” is not accurate, as Brent will continue to be a member of Grace, which is a SGM church, therefore, he did not “leave SGM”, but has resigned as a pastor.
2. I’m told that 1 Tim 5:19-20 was followed.
3. I’m told that “moving slowing” on SGM’s part is an evidence of reform. While leaders within SGM have been appealing to Brent for some time, SGM did not become officially involved until the leadership team of Grace appealed to SGM for help. After the appeal was made, they actually moved quite quickly, given the scope of the task before them. They interviewed a large number of people, and at the end of their evaluation, they recommended that Brent resign. Brent accepted their recommendation.
I promised our readers over a year ago that I would expose abuse of authority within SGM. I promised that I would (loudly) call for reform. I also promised our readers that should reform occur, I would chronicle evidence of reform with a grateful heart.
I commend the local leadership of Grace, the SGM pastors who were involved in this endeavor, and I commend Brent for doing the right thing.
I can only see this as one of many very positive signs of change within SGM. God is good!
July 27th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Wow. The actual truth and reality behind this significant event would be revealing of countless issues within the SGM world. I admit a definite curiosity…
July 27th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Much damage and pain left in the wake of this tsunami. BUT HE is victorious and tending to HIS sheep that were led to the slaughter in this. SGM is rising to the occasion and “caring” for the wounded and rejected. They are not walking away leaving those involved on their own to heal……Someone is not only listening, but hearing the cries of HIS children…they are being loved, respected, and validated.
Let us continue to pray for all involved: the wounded and rejected, that they may heal; those refusing to see the truth, that their blinders might be lifted; the leaders, that they continue to walk in compassion and humility as they address and recognize the need for change..and for Brent, that he too may be restored.
Let us continue to pray that truth will continually be revealed; that this be the beginning of the reform we have all been praying for. Let us keep our eyes on HIM, that we not revel and enjoy the pain of the chastisement that these circumstances have brought about…….Let us daily long to be HIS hands and feet to others, and not become as those who have persecuted us…Let us be HIS light shining on the sins and errors in all this, that HE may be glorified. Let us forgive, as HE has forgiven us.
MiMi
July 27th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
“Let us be HIS light, shining LOVE on the sins and errors in all this that HE may be glorified..”
July 27th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
MiMi, thanks for your encouraging words. Just wondering, are you still in a SGM church? Are you in Brent’s former church? Can you give evidence to support your statements that the sheep are being cared for? Thank you.
July 27th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Wow!
July 27th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Fred,
Am I in an SGM church? Yes… Is it Brent’s church? No. I can honestly say that I have experienced NONE of what I have ever read here. Can I give evidence that sheep are being cared for? Yes. I know personally some that are in the process of being cared for and ministered to. I know for a fact, that leadership has reached out to them, loving them and trying to restore them/heal their pain. I also know that leadership is trying to repair the damage done to their reputations. I know that those men dealing with this are loving these people, walking beside them and recognizing the errors that caused their woundedness…
I know that I ask HIM to bless these men and honor their faithfulness to this situation. I know some may scoff at this, but I choose to believe that HE is at work and the sincerity of their hearts have been moved by HIM. I believe also, that I must trust HIM to be at work in Brent’s life also…..
MiMi
July 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am
Well Jim, I don’t mind if you say “I told you so”. I am very surprised, as I was in Brent’s church before leaving SGM. It seemed to me that he was a big wig in the organization, responsible for all the doctrine we were suppose to all agree on. If he has resigned, will he still lead the new church, or take it with him? Anyone know?
July 28th, 2009 at 12:46 am
Canary,
Brent resigned as pastor of Grace. Grace is still a SGM church.
July 28th, 2009 at 3:40 am
Interesting…
as with most sgm developments, I will wait for further details before getting too excited.
Still, it’s interesting.
July 28th, 2009 at 10:04 am
MiMi, may I ask you a question? Why do you think that this situation in Brent’s church (former, I guess) looks different than so many other situations in SGM churches. I know of cases where nothing was done to restore reputations as you say is being done now. What has happened MiMi and why the changes??
Also, may I ask you another question? Since you have never personally experienced or seen anything that is written on these blogs, do you believe what you have read here or do you suspect that people are fabricating stories? Thanks MiMi!
July 28th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Jim, why did Brent resign? Also, why was he no longer an apostle and in leadership? Is this another case of removing the older man and replacing him with a younger one?
July 28th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Is Brent still in sgm?
July 28th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Ellie-I just updated the post.
July 28th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Ok, thanks, Jim!
btw: do you know when Brent resigned?
July 28th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Good to hear,
now if they’d only clean house in the Fairfax church………….
July 28th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Ellie-Saturday Night.
July 28th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Fred,
1. I think this situation may be different because people outside of Grace risked getting involved. They too went to leadership questioning the behavior and actions there. They did not let it go until there was resolution.
2. I think this situation is different because the victims pursued upper leadership and could not be persuaded to “go away”.
3. I think this situation is different because of sites like this that echos the voices of the church crying out for truth and grace to be extended to all.
4. I think this situation is different because there are leaders in SGM that care/have let the Lord soften their hearts, and they desire for HIS church to be whole.
5. Do I believe the accounts here….YES! ( I don’t like the word stories – leads to questionable connotation.) I said I have never personally experienced it, BUT I did not say that I had not seen it or the pain it brings.
6. Will I continue to pray and intercede for ALL involved in every situation? YES, my desire it not only for restoration to come, but more so, that situations such as this become as non existent as possible in the body of Christ – everywhere.
7. Will I continue to pray for “watchmen” on the towers to warn us and protect the sheep of HIS pasture….Yes….
8. Will I continue to ask HIM to bless men like Jim who have the courage to bring truth, humble themselves when directed, repent when called to….Yes..those are the kind of men that HE trusts HIS sheep with…..Don’t have to be a “pastor” to be a true shepard.
MiMi
July 28th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Thanks MiMi. I appreciate your answer.
July 28th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
When “Esther” from the Chesapeake church went to Gene Emerson last fall, he would not get involved with her situation. Neither would Dave Harvey, Steve Shank, etc. She even sent her letter to CJ and has never heard from him directly.
July 28th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Hi MiMi!
Thank you for your comments above… I continue to pray for SGm and it’s leaders alongside you, my friend!
Only God can change SGM, only God can change these men’s hearts.
You said in #2:
“2. I think this situation is different because the victims pursued upper leadership and could not be persuaded to “go away”.”
I have to respectfully disagree to a certain extent with this statement. There have been many who have gone to leaders, and the leaders above those leaders, even all the way to CJ, and have been absolutely blown off by them. Those leaders either ignored the pleas for help, or they turned it back on the person(s) by blaming the situation on their own sin.
So I don’t think it’s necessarily a case of not pursuing upper leadership or being persuaded to go away, although I’m sure that has happened in some cases. But in other cases, they “gave up” after running into the brick wall of SGM leadership… you can only run into a wall so many times before you just can’t get back up and run into it again.
I still hold out hope that SGM leaders are changing, that their hearts are growing soft and no more sheep will be hurt and/or betrayed by their actions, their way of “doing church.”
July 28th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Carole,
I need to ask everyones forgivness. I realize after I had written it, that It came out wrong. All..please foregive me. What I meant to say was that there were outsiders from other SGM church fighting for the victims: going to SGM leadership and refusing to accept anything but resolution. These people did not give up. They stayed in contact with their pastor, and “apostles. ”
They confronted both Fairfax and Chesapeake situations. Made it known that this was an all too common occurance, asking for explainations.
Again, please forgive me for my incorrect representation…
MiMi
July 28th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
No worries, MiMi!
Thank you for clarifying, though. It sounds as though some of the SGM members are rising up, fighting for the church! YAY!!!! This is very good indeed!
July 28th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
Hello again MiMi,
You are so sweet and I am reluctant to ask another question but may I? Would you mind explaining the statement, ”They confronted both Fairfax and Chesapeake situations. Made it known that this was an all too common occurance, asking for explainations.”
Thanks MiMi.
July 28th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
We , yes, we..wrote letters to leadership concerning Chesapeake and Fairfax after we read about the accounts. We had done the same previously when Mooresville occurred. We met with our Pastor. Letters were forwarded to upper leadership. We continued to stay up to date with our Pastor, met with him….asked questions.
He was absolutley wonderful in working with us. He never tried to sway us or dismiss our concerns. We have great respect ( not adoration) for our leadership…men who point us to JESUS weekly..who teach us to rejoice in the resurrection. However, we know they are simply men…and keep our eyes on HIM..not them…..We have been reminded (by them) to not take in blind faith their “interpretations” of the word, but to search it out ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit to guide and direct.
So you see, we had no problem in going to him with our concerns…..He prayed with us, worked with us, and pointed us to HIM who brings truth, and not the church.
Fred, it seems that you have been greatly wounded….We will pray for you and your healing……Remember, when we are at our lowest, the only place to look is up…to the heavens..to HIM who sits on the throne!!!!!
MiMi
July 28th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Man oh man. I do not check this blog for a few days and than I come back and the apparently unthinkable has happpend. Brent Detwiler is no longer a pastor.
I can only say that my interactions with him in the fairfax church were always very good but I had reports of overly authoritarian behavior even starting as early as when he first arrived at Fairfax and two older men who were lay elders were rather unceremoniously removed from their positions.
I have to agree with Jim that this is the first real reform that has occured and hopefully is a harbinger of more to come. Be encouraged Jim because I am sure that this public forum has helped make a difference.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I guess this is a big deal, but not really to me. The SR pastor of my X Sovereign Grace church is still there ignoring grace, preaching I don’t know what doctrine and is as pompas, arrogant and “ignorant” as when I left a year and a half ago. He is blindly backed in the south by none other than “apostle DJ” and vacationed this week with “india boy.” I wonder how much gossip and slander took place on the boat that day?
The womens retreat in the South was a graceless, bunch of condemnation, TO ME it almost sounded like witch craft….it was man centered, controling and I cant believe anyone would pay a dime to hear the same message that they gave 5 years ago…
I am still really hurt by the lies and deception that continue in Sovereign Grace Ministries. I do pray, but I wont rest easy until….they gut the local church leadership, all leaders, care group leaders, SR Pastor and young pastors college grad, they shut the doors, CJ resignes, OR AT THE VERY LEAST MY OWN FAMILY gets the heck out of dodge, and sees Sovereign Grace minstries for what it really is. A failing business.
July 28th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Hi Charlie! Good to “see” you!! Did you attend the women’s retreat? Or did you just hear or read about it somewhere? Inquiring minds….
July 28th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Very surprising to hear about Brent. We were in the Fairfax church when he was sent over to put “things in order.” I don’t know for sure what happened to the two elders who stepped down after that. They may have done it voluntarily because of other issues in their lives. Brent did, however, let a pastor go from the staff. That particular pastor was the only one on staff who had any seminary training. Was a shame to see him go. I have friends at the Charlotte church and haven’t heard one word about Brent leaving. Still keeping secrets I guess.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Mack:
I do not recall the two elders at Fairfax having any disqualifying issues in their lives or at least none of which I was aware.
The pastor to whom you are referring was dismissed? Were his initials GS?
July 29th, 2009 at 12:20 am
Does anyone know who the new SP will be at Grace? Also, there is one couple at Grace who is or was fairly close to Brent and Jenny? If you know anything about the history of that church, you will know to whom I am referring? I just want to know that they are doing well through all of this.
July 29th, 2009 at 12:23 am
Does anyone know who the new SP will be at Grace?
Also, to those who may be more familiar with Grace and its internal matters, there is one particular couple in leadership role who is or was fairly close to brent and Jenny and my only question is how is this couple doing in the midst of this change?
July 29th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Just curious, MIMi, What are basing this statement on? “Fred, it seems that you have been greatly wounded….” I only asked you a couple of fairly simple questions.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Carole, it is on line and so are the notes..Good to see you to.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:16 am
Fred,
If I presumed, please forgive me. I seemed to sense a tenderness in your blogs toward SGM; one that can only come from there having once been a good experience. I don’t since any animosity in your posts. Simply a longing for wholeness in the Church that can only come from a sadness experienced.
Again, please forgive me if I read something into the posts.
MiMi..
July 29th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Thanks MiMI.
July 29th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
This exit-Brent-stage-left has been so long in the making, I’ve forgotten exactly what led to it. Can someone provide a brief summary? Was it the “Fifty Fruits of Pride” that he liked to teach on?
July 29th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Because I know nothing of what was going on in Brent’s church, I would not presume to say if this action is right or wrong. What concerns me is this: why have we not heard of any change in polity within SGM? Why have we not heard that the sheeple have more of a voice as in unpaid elected elder boards? Are the changes being seen true genuine changes or just changes which effect the outward appearance of the leadership? These are part of my concerns. Learning that Mickey C was involved in this makes me wonder – were his motives pure in all this? As Quizzler would say, so many questions and so little time. I am thankful that my loving heavenly Father has all the answers. No worrying , no fretting.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
The two Elders who stepped down in the Fairfax church around ‘82-’83 were part of the “reorganization” . Benny Phillips, who was pastor, also was asked to step aside for a period of testing. Brent took over everything. The two wonderful Elders, who were truly elders in the Lord, were beloved by us all. They also had our loyalty. They did not stick around long after stepping down. There were no character issues ever mentioned, only the typical “lack of calling”, which was nonsense now that I look back. They were loving, faith-filled, wise men and women who deserved better than they got. When they did leave, it was done quietly.
After a while, Benny got his church back, and Brent stayed in VA as his base of operations while he went around to the other churches. He left in 1992 with Bob K. to start the Charlotte church. My husband and I moved there from VA in 1992.
I have not heard the issues of why Brent was asked to resign. I only know what my husband and I witnessed through the years, how we were treated, and how controlling he was. If some of that is the reason why he had to resign, I’m sad that he had to loose his job to finally find the truth about himself. Wish he’d listened all those years back when many of us addressed him about the same problems in his treatment of the sheep. He would not, or could not, listen. God gave him so many opportunities to hear the truth and change!
I do not wish ill of him or his family. This must be a very tough time for them all. I will pray that the Lord will continue to work in their hearts, and in Brent’s. What does an out-of-work pastor do after years of leading churches? And in this economy? Learning to support himself and his family during these times is not going to be easy. Even though I am glad his power and influence over the sheep is gone, I will be praying for him. He was someone we once respected and cared deeply for. I hope he finds the same freedom in Christ that he once denied my family. I truly do.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Carole, It is so good to see you on the blog! Hope you are doing well.
July 29th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Fred,
I don’t see the polity changing. I’ve that there are some former sheep beaters that have changed their ways.
I’m encouraged by that. I couldn’t care less about their motives, as that is between them and God, I’m just happy to see less wounded sheep.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
First time on this site. I am a former CrossWay member who has first hand experience with the legalism of Brent and Mickey in Charlotte. Thankfully, I am out of SGM and was prior to Grace church starting, but have certainly been the target of the horrible treatment so seemingly prevelant of folks on this and other sites. I am privvy to certain details of things I believe led up to this new development in the church here in the Charlotte area. I have to admit a tremendous amount of mixed feelings on all of this. Knowing a degree of details has led to me being a bit cynnical about the possibility of this being an evidence of enlightenment in SGM. I, sadly, believe that this may be yet another incident of a pastor being “disqualified because of the sin of a child” instead of SGM really addressing arrogance and legalism in one of it’s own. There was an attempt of cover up from the sister church leadership in Charlotte.
I so want to believe that the Lord has opened the eyes of CJ and company. But, I am skeptical about this. If there is any reason to believe that I am incorrect and there is significantly more to this story than I know, I would welcome this. But, I know too much about happenings of the last few months to not be troubled by this.
This whole thing hurts my heart and my spirit. I want so badly to move on and not think about this stuff. But, I can’t seem to do it. When I hear and see reports of SGMers standing firm in their support of SGM leadership, I want to cry. When I hear reports of folks who have been sinned against being asked by SGM leaders to “cover” the sins and not let the truth come out to protect a brother, I feel physically ill. I know in my head that God is God and is NOT like this stuff. I wish I could get this in my heart so that I am not affected by things like this…
Not sure how to get there…
July 29th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
I Got Out,
I’m so glad for you that you got out!! God has been revealing His grace to you because it is not easy to get out of SGM, I know. I was in SGM for 13 years, and have now been out for almost 8 years. So even though you may feel discouraged over not knowing more of God in your heart rather than your head (I can relate), I commend you for knowing enough about God’s loving heart to realize that SGM did not demonstrate it to you.
It is not an easy journey, but each person must find out for himself what God’s heart is truly like. There is no quick-and-easy formula because good, solid, trusting relationships are built over time. In hindsight, I can see that I trusted other people too much to tell me who God is instead of finding out for myself through a one-to-one relationship. I undervalued the discernment God gives to all of His children and overvalued the opinions of others.
“Fear of man” was the popular diagnosis by SGM leaders, but little did they know that the less I operated in it, the less I thought of their opinions! Of course God gives us teachers, but Jesus is the Master Teacher and most perfectly represents who God is. His Holy Spirit was given to us to be led by grace, not by legalistic righteousness.
My suggestion is to take things day by day. It is a daily process–sometimes there are breakthroughs, sometimes not. Even now, almost 8 years later, I still feel some negative effects of SGM legalism. But God is good–even being able to discern that the “no dating” practice I once thought was godly was really legalistic for a person my age shows progress. I hope this helps.
July 29th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Hey Canary!
How are you doing? I’m doing great!… but this puppy of ours is keeping me busy! I’ll respond to your email soon… if I can trust the pup long enough to take my eyes off of him for even a second! LOL!!
July 29th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I Got Out-
I’m glad you’re here. I think the best thing we can do is to be still and know that He is God and not try to figure everything out.
There’s so much that I can’t wrap my head around, but I know this-He reigns forever!
That fact must be enough for me. When I walk away from this blog, I’ll never purposely read another word about SGM.
I want to know more of Him, and less of the little kingdoms of little men.
July 30th, 2009 at 12:38 am
I just found this site a few weeks ago. Amazing! You guys should have been around 20 years ago when the “friendly fire” wounded and almost took my life. I was a senior pastor in the DC area of a church that willingly submitted to PDI (now SGM) to be an “adopted” church. We got the “short straw” and Brent became our “apostle.”
At the time I was leading the church and its building program and Brent left me alone to get our building completed (for nearly two years). Two weeks after we dedicated the building in 1989, Brent, Mickey C, and two other leaders I had discipled, met with me in my office and told me I was proud, unteachable, self-centered, contentious, and unqualified to lead the church that I had founded 14 years before.
I never denied those accusations were from time to time true in my life, but that is not who I was. I had willingly submitted myself to accountability to the brothers, and like any committed Christian was working out my faith with fear and trembling.
Nevertheless, they gave me two weeks to find a job and hit the road. (That was modified later because my father died inside the two weeks, which gave them a little time to reconsider and have “pity” on me.) Their plan for “restoration” was for me to become the church janitor and handyman at a reduced salary and submit to Mickey as my pastor and continued input from Brent.
Somehow I hung in there (in a miserable depressed, thought of suicide, state) for nearly a year. One highlight I remember, after being labeled as a “proud” man, Brent stood before my church and told them that the sin of pride was worse than the sin of adultery (I wanted to melt into the floor). Too many other details to share of all the isolation, abuse, “curses” and guilt trips Brent and Mickey laid on me during that time. Countless nightmares of church meetings with Brent and Mickey (and other SGMers) rejecting and ridiculing me; I lost count of the times I woke up screaming and crying for God’s mercy (lasted weekly for more than two years)!
At first I thought they really loved me and wanted to help me overcome the sins and weaknesses in my life. I willingly submitted to their role as “Holy Spirit” in my live. I made no waves in the local church. I rocked no boats. I willingly submitted to excommunication from a church full of people I had led to the Lord and fathered in the faith. I would soon found out I had been nearly mortally wounded by “friendly fire!”
Why? Because the apostle, Brent, knew what was best for me and my church. While I was working myself to exhaustion finishing a church building and leading the church, he was slowly and skillfully winning the hearts of Mickey (my assistant pastor at the time) and my other leaders. He adeptly convinced them I was unworthy and unqualified to lead the church and must step down. He made a pronouncement over me one day that I should have NEVER been a pastor (even though I had been ordained 17 years before and had seen the success and blessings of God on my ministry). Brent knew best though and I was thrown away.
I have too many details to bore all of you with. Suffice it to say, Brent’s exposure of abuse, legalism, and impersonating the Holy Spirit is 20 years too late in coming.
I suppose some of you think that all the other leaders in SGM were oblivious to his ungodly behavior over all these years. I suppose Mickey never saw these ungodly traits over the last 22 years of interaction. I appealed to every leader in existence 20 years ago and they ALL (except Larry T) turned deaf ears to my plight. If it had not been for Larry and Doris, my wife and I would have surely been spiritually shipwrecked.
By the way, they used the same “playbook” to get rid of Larry that they used on me. Tell a man of God that he is proud, unteachable, and contentious — then no matter what he does or says in regards to explanation or defense — he fulfills their diagnosis and proves their point. Once diagnosed you can NEVER be good enough again!
Yes, all the “apostles” including CJ, Steve, Gene, etc. have known for years who the real Brent was and is, and they obviously covered it up and turned a deaf ear to the many complaints. How could that be? Only God knows for sure, but maybe it is because they did not find anything wrong with the way Brent conducted himself. Maybe it was the way they conducted themselves, too. Maybe it was the way they believed God would have them treat people. Maybe they were sincerely trying to love and lead the church according to their interpretation of the Word. Maybe they really believed that they are God’s gift (of the Holy Spirit) to all those under their care.
I cannot judge their hearts or their motives, but I can judge what they did to me and my family, and MANY others I have known through the years, and what I read they have continued to do to so many of you who write in this blog. They have left many, many precious people dead and dying in the trenches through their misguided and misdirected “friendly fire!”
May God have mercy on them and those they have wounded! I believe the church would be better off if the whole lot would resign tomorrow and the doors of their “churches” would close for GOOD!
Yes, I still love the Lord and am walking with Him, but I do walk with a limp.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:49 am
Hey “I Got Out”,
Remember me, A Kindred Spirit? It’s good to “see” you again. It’s obvious you know more than I do about Brent’s situation. I feel sorry for all of Brent’s kids. Growing up in such legalism has definitely left it’s mark…dysfunction was predictable. My heart grieves for all the children of SGM, regardless of their age.
Folks, if you read some of the early posts on survivors you’ll quickly discover just how much of the “garbage” was dished out by Brent.
Mickey C. (CrossWay) has done his share of damage, as well…LOTS OF DAMAGE!!! (Same legalism and abuse, just served up with all that “humility and charm,” making it more palatable.) I’m always skeptical when I hear his name…it’s awfully hard for a leopard to change his spots.
July 30th, 2009 at 7:33 am
Friendly Fire, Thank you so much for posting. I am so sorry for the terrible things that “they” did to you. I am so sorry for the lies that they spoke to you and the “MO” which they used against you for their own selfish purposes. Sadly they do lie and tear men down for their own purposes and motivation. I have seen it with my own eyes.
I pray that God totally heals your heart (and your wife) and that He totally restores what the locusts devoured in your life. I totally agree with your statement: “May God have mercy on them and those they have wounded! I believe the church would be better off if the whole lot would resign tomorrow and the doors of their “churches” would close for GOOD!”
Once again, I ask you CJ, resign today.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Wow. First of all, a warm welcome to I Got Out and Friendly Fire.
IGO, it is particularly nice to see you here, as we know each other’s stories well. My heart is encouraged when I see the way the Lord is healing you and moving you back into your proper relationship with Him, with no man in between the two of you. It is evident to me, especially in our last visit. God is at work in you, but it does take time and there can be little uncomfortable seasons of further digging and pruning before even more new growth.
Friendly Fire,
Like you, our PDI nightmare was twenty some odd years ago and Brent was a pivital player. It took many years for us to recover and we were not in nearly as high a position as you were, so we didn’t have as much to lose. Still, it was a gut-wrenching trial. Like you, we tried to illuminate the errors we saw by sending materials on spiritual abuse to everyone in a position of authority locally and nationally. We sent the materials anonomously, frankly out of fear, so we weren’t expecting a direct response, but we got one from Brent, who tried to send the materials back.
I am joyfully walking with the Lord these days and I am well, but I can understand that ”limp” you speak of. For me the limp is a good thing, an ever present reminder that I am in New Covenant Chrisitianity where the priesthood of every believer is firmly in place. Any time a man tries to step between me and the Lord, taking Jesus’ place as mediator, that little ache helps me to see it quickly and end it.
Still, like canary, I will be praying for Brent and his family. The Lord disciplines those He loves. I pray that the discipline Brent receives in this season will truly be from the Lord’s heart.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:42 am
FormerSGMer,
Yes, the initials of the pastor discharged by Brent in the early days of FCC were GS. I think he was asking too many questions about what was happening. I talked to a friend of mine in the Charlotte church about Brent resigning and her comment was that he was not under church discipline and would probably be back to pastor the new church in Mooresville. She also wanted to know how I had found out about the resignation and I declined to comment because I know what most SGMers think of these sites. I have been friends with her for a long time and don’t want to rock the boat. My husband encouraged me to go to the SGM main site and see if there was any info about Brent’s resignation there. According to their site, he is still the pastor of the Mooresville church. There is no mention of his resignation. Why does SGM have to be so secretive? Why wouldn’t people who know or knew Brent want to be praying for him through this season. The secrecy issue actually causes more speculation.
July 30th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Friendly Fire,
Your comment did not appear until after I posted mine. I, too, am sorry for what you and your family have had to endure.
Mickey C. and Brent working together is not a pretty sight! Trust me, I’ve observed it for years! I am sickened by the damage to the sheep as a result of these two men. And remember, you have Larry M. at CrossWay, as well.
I pray that ALL will eventually be exposed in SGM. God does not allow such to continue on…eventually it IS exposed…the truth comes out.
I am praying for you as you continue healing, Friendly Fire. It takes YEARS to heal from this mess. YEARS!!!
- Kindred
July 30th, 2009 at 9:26 am
There’s a “reason” C. J. highlighted Mickey C. on his blog a couple of months ago. He’s one of his “boys.”
Please excuse the sarcasm…I don’t tolerate arrogance and sheep beating very well. I don’t tolerate self-righteousness and condemnation very well, either…especially under the facade of concern, humility, and charm. I’ve tried, but it just seems to make my blood boil. I finally realized God designed me that way and even had a plan for it.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:25 am
Brent resigned last Saturday. I was present at that meeting. Wasn’t pretty, but sounds like he’s got a really good dose of his own medicine.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:30 am
formersgmer,
I think I know who you’re talking about. The couple you are reffering to are doing OK, however they are just as guilty of exactly the same things they are accusing Brent of. How ironic.
July 30th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I also was at the members only meeting on Saturday night and the bottom line is that the leadership team is guilty of most of the same accusations slammed against Brent…what is sad is to watch pride and self-reliance freely operate in a church and the resultant spiritual destruction brought on to so many people. This statement was validated by one of the SGM leaders on the evaluation team.
Quite frankly this church should be dissolved for so many reasons beyond the length of this post.
For me, I am done…not interested in playing church (religion) as it leads to spiritual death. I have great sympathy for individuals who have commented on their past hurt caused by reckless interpretation/execution of the scriptures. (friendlyfire,canary…). Betrayal is a tough reality in ministry today…I wonder why God is not blessing the larger church in most cases? Hmmmm…….
In Christ alone I place my trust!
July 30th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
To All Who Have Suffered Under the Tentacles of Sovereign Grace Ministries: Where in the world did the “5 Wise Men” (CJ, Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, Josh Harris, and Pat Ennis) get the authority to make the many decisions they have? Who are they to toy around with the lives of so many and manipulate so much to meet their own needs? Where in the world did they have the authority bestowed upon them to decided who does and does not have the calling to be a pastor? This infuriates me, and very few people say much about it.
How many great men will be stepped on by these men?
How many families will be wounded and stabbed in the back by these men?
It so appears that this is much bigger than anyone knows (since most SGMers live in a self-contained bubble, like, I guess, North Korea, and have little knowledge of what really happend at their sister churches.)
Bravo to CJ and Sovereign Grace Ministries for pulling off one of the greatest schemes in church history!
5 men on the top.
Countless millions of dollars in their hands each year.
A self-contribed method of keeping all around them silent!
What a Hack Job!
Nothing more to say here!
July 30th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
My heart is breaking and rejoicing at the same time.
Jim and Carole, I rejoice that you chose to keep the blog running, at least for now. Look at the saints who are first time posters! They can find help and prayer here. We can see that people are being set free by hearing what they have to say. Thank you again for putting so much time into the Refuge.
My heart breaks when I read FriendlyFire’s post. FF, you have indeed endured much. I am so glad you are still walking with the Lord, though a limp remains. My experience with the Brent/Mickey team in Charlotte left me without a leg. That is how I see myself. One day in heaven, it will no longer be like that. But I have learned that the loss of a limb (metaphorically speaking) has made me so much stronger, so much freer, and so much more in faith than I ever was as a whole woman. The things we have all gone through are now being used for good, as you and others are discovering this site and finding that you aren’t alone. Thank you so much for posting. I am praying for you today.
I Got Out,
So glad you did! It does take time to heal and answer why any of this had to happen. If you hang around, poke around the site a little, maybe there will be revelation for you heart. It sounds like you have compassion for the people who are experiencing injustice by church leaders. That is a good thing, but it does hurt. Filter that into prayer for the saints in SGM. Something big is happening. Many are going to be set free. You can be of such great help. In the meantime, we want to support you with our own thoughts and prayers. God leaves no sheep unattended, no matter what church leaders might do! Also, a good book reccomendation is “Twisted Scriptures”. You will gain much understanding from it, I think.
Carole, I look forward to that email.
July 30th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Wow! I’ve been away for far too long… it took me a while to catch up on everything and everyone.
For all of our new visitors, Welcome! Reading of your experiences in and, ultimately, out of SGM, is still a difficult thing to do… (although the “out of” part is a very good thing in my opinion).
I hope you all find help and healing here, along with the many others who have been used and abused by the SGM “system.” You are not alone in your pain nor in your experiences. And, best of all, God is right beside us all! 
I’ll pop back later… I still have some more reading and catching up to do… but I did want to take this opportunity to welcome all of our new guests!
July 30th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
To all SGM pastors and pastors of churches considering adoption by SGM
Read this entire thread, from the top, carefully and recognize that what you see described here will also happen to you, eventually. You will all be used and then cast aside when the capricious whims of SGM (CJ) dictate.
Many of you have firsthand experience with this already, either as perpetrators or as victims. Don’t wait until this corrupt movement destroys you and your precious family – escape NOW.
Here’s a special quiz just for you pastors………..
Which of the following verses apply to your situation?
A) I Cor 10:13
B) I Thes 5:3
C) 2 Tim 2:26
D) Heb 12:25
E) All of the above
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
FriendlyFire, I’m sorry you experienced what you did — as so many others have. Can you shed light, though, on how this bullying, abusive behavior worked so well on you?
You say you started your church, helped God establish and grow it for over a decade, trained other leaders, led the church through a building program — then handed over the keys to your entire ministry to guys who really had no background comparable to yours.
What was it about Brent & Mickey — and any other PDI leaders you encountered — that made you so willingly turn everything over to them, believe everything they said about you, but not demand to have the same kind of input into *their* lives? Just what was it that so “dazzled” you that you thought your ministry should be under their leadership instead of your own? You weren’t a new Christian, after all, but a seasoned leader. (No judgment here, just honest questions that I don’t think anyone has answered adequately).
Thank you!
July 30th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Wondering why Brent is still listed as sr pastor on the web site
July 30th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Friendly Fire,
I’m sorry for all that you went through as a pastor. I’m glad that you shared your story because it helps me to see how church leaders were also abused, not just the “laity.” It gives me more compassion for the pastors who were forced to step down even though they had Jesus’ heart for the flock.
Were you part of Solid Rock Church? Just wondering. If you don’t want to share that, that’s fine.
I was part of the Fairfax church, but I have various Maryland friends who attended different SGM churches in MD (including Solid Rock). Fortunately, most of them are left SGM years ago.
July 30th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
FriendlyFire,
I am so sorry for what happened to you in your church. It breaks my heart that these men have deliberately done this to so many good people through the years and are even now still doing this to incoming churches. I pray that all of this continues to be exposed and the Lord will stop these “adoptions” before it is too late.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
July 30th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Welcome back, Carole!!!! Good to see you again!!!
July 30th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
Hi Ellie! Hope it isn’t too hot where you are. It was 50 and rainy here today. We broke a one hundred year record for the month of July. It’s bad when you are tempted to turn the heater on and it is only July 30th. Oh brother…:)
July 31st, 2009 at 12:40 am
No such temptation here, dear feathered friend, lolol!!!
I will not complain though, it’s been a (relatively) mild summer and no drought this year, yayyyyyyyy!!!
July 31st, 2009 at 9:21 am
MTE said…
“I think I know who you’re talking about. The couple you are reffering to are doing OK, however they are just as guilty of exactly the same things they are accusing Brent of. How ironic.”
MTE, I agree. Many who went with Brent to the church plant in Mooresville are “like-minded.” CrossWay actually has many sheep who are like-minded. Mickey and Brent have done their job well.
CrossWay is known in our neck of the woods as an arrogant, legalistic, self-righteous, snobby, ”we’re the ONLY ones doing it ‘biblically’” church. Even the college kids at the local university feel this way.
It’s sad…very sad! And before the blogs came along, Mickey, Brent, Larry, Joe and the other guilty partys didn’t care that they had that reputation. I know because I know folks who have shared their concerns about CrossWay having such a reputation. I shared my concerns, as well. They would just “humbly” (and smuggly) put on an appearance of listening and then assure everyone that the reason people were saying such things was because CrossWay was doing things “biblically” (making folks uncomfortable with their sin-sniffing, legalistic formulas, and ”village” mentality).
Many members (not all of them) come across as “Christian elitists”, and I have seen firsthand how it turns people off. The pastors at CrossWay groomed that “elitism!” It is also my opinion that CrossWay is probably one of the “best” in SGM at practicing “The Village” model…you won’t find too many (maybe a handful) who marry outside of CrossWay, and if they do, it’s usually someone within a Sovereign Grace church. You also won’t find too many socializing with folks “outside” of SGM.
It truly is sad.
July 31st, 2009 at 10:08 am
Thanks to you all for your kind and discerning responses. I heard much I need to hear in my spirit. I was especially struck by the “little kingdoms of little men” comment, Jim. I think, for me, there are many times I do have a habit of equating God and His nature with the reflection of God we see in the church. Obviously, it’s a poor and distorted reflection as we look at SGM. Very sad…
Friendly Fire…oh my. If you are speaking of the church in Maryland I believe you are speaking of, when Mickey came to Charlotte, we were told a perverse and distorted version of the truth in reference to Mickey’s rise to senior pastor-hood. How frightening that “men of God” can so easily twist things into a version that makes them look the way they want to look in front of gullible sheep/followers.
I believe it was Kindred (yes, I do remember you from the other site!) who mentioned Mickey being cut from the same cloth as Brent but that it was masked with “humility and charm”. I so agree with that. Somehow, for me, it was a little easier to procecss being stabbed in the heart when it comes from someone hard and cold than when it comes from someone “charming”. Brent questioned the genuineness of my salvation experience one time when I shared my testimony with him. I was furious. When my life fell apart…with the church as the root of it all…and I ran, Mickey made a similar comment. I was destroyed. Now I see two things– 1-the power to destroy man can have over his brother/sisters and 2-that I was (am probably still am) a fool for the way I placed my trust and confidence in “man”.
Trying so hard to get clarity of thought~I admit it’s hard for me right now. My heart goes out to Brent’s son. I can’t imagine growing up in that shadow and with all the pressure that goes along with it. I pray he feels the love and grace of his Creator. I pray he runs to his Creator for the forgiveness and compassion that is available to him. I pray that the truth–the whole truth– is revealed so that ALL parties are laid bare before the Father.
Thanks again so much for the love and compassion I feel from you all. I am struggling right now and can’t really put my finger on why. I need to pray…
July 31st, 2009 at 10:51 am
I Got Out,
I am praying for you today, dear sister!
Yes, it is MUCH HARDER when someone who “appears” concerned, humble, and charming wounds you. The healing process is long, but God is faithful.
I always felt Mickey was put with Brent to balance Brent out…both were “like-minded” and on the same page…Brent just doesn’t have the ”people skills” and charm to “woo” the sheep like Mickey can.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:11 pm
I Got Out,
Brent told my husband and I when we questioned him that we did not “understand the doctrine of sin” ( I later learned from the Lord that we did not understand the doctrine of GRACE). That was bad enough, but to quesiton your salvation? To deny it? What man can do that? What man knows your heart?
Please be patient with yourself. This is a painful process. Learning to trust the Lord above men isn’t easy when one has been indoctrinated with SGM teachings. You allowed them to have control over you, and now you are taking your life back. Lift it up to Jesus. He will never treat you the way those men did. He is for you. He is loving and kind, gentle and patient. He goes to His sheep who are cast down and lifts them to their feet. It is a truly beautiful experience.
I, too, will pray for you today along with Kindred Spirit.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Keepinstep… thought provoking questions about WHY I turned everything over to PDI/SGM in 1989. (no short explanation) First, you must understand there was not 20 years of documented abuse and scandals involving the “A” Team. I had been friends with most of the leaders of TAG [“Take and Give” ministries – the forerunner of “Gathering of Believers” and “People of Destiny” (PDI) for more than 10 years.] We loved God and each other and saw a need for renewal in the church with authentic Christianity that promoted committed relationships and accountability with the Lord and one another. We had very similar visions. There was sincere mutual respect for each other and our ministries.
Within that context, Larry and CJ were highly esteemed and respected in the DC area among the young, up and coming church leaders. They offered a fresh voice of what the church was all about and the need for a “community of believers” built together, not just a big pile of “stones” in the same place. I didn’t even know Brent when I went to Larry and CJ and asked them to consider allowing myself and the church I had founded 12 years before to become a part of PDI. Brent was a relatively new face in the DC area.
I had thought (because of my lengthy relationship with Larry) that he would be the “apostle” that would work with us. Things would no doubt have turned out very differently, but it was not to be. Brent got the assignment in 1987 and went to work undermining the loyalties of my leaders.
I had brought Mickey into full-time ministry a few years earlier in 1984 as my assistant pastor. We shared the ministry and were like brothers – before Brent. I was too busy in 1987 through 1989 building our new church facility to notice what was happening behind the scenes. By the time they set me down and told me I “no longer qualified to be their pastor and lead the church,” it was too late – Brent was in control. The men that were my closest friends saw in Brent the new order. I no longer had their ears or hearts. Brent had convinced them I was “unworthy” and they needed a new leader. I think they sincerely thought they were trying to help me and do what was right – thus my handle – “FriendlyFire.” Mickey was tapped and accepted the call of Brent to take over.
Could I have fought for the church I founded and had led for 14 years? Was I still the spiritual “father” of the church? Did I have a right to stay and pastor my spiritual children? YES, to all of those questions. BUT, I really felt the Lord showed me that if I made a claim to my fatherhood to this church, it would be destroyed and the sheep would be scattered. (the Solomon story about the two women who laid claim to the same baby inspired me to let the “baby” live, even if it were in the possession of an imposter)
That all probably sounds a little silly and naive now, but it helped me release the church without killing it off. The church went on to be re-indoctrinated in Brent’s brand of Calvinism/Reformedism.
After all these years and after reading all the junk that has taken place as a result of these misguided “Godplayers,” I sometimes wish I had gone ahead and blown the whole thing up – the lesser of evils.
I wasn’t “dazzled” by anyone, it was a whole different era, it was the beginning of the sorrows so many of you have shared on. There was no reason to be skeptical or to believe the worst in those days.
And, YES, – On the Healing Journey – I was the founding pastor of Solid Rock Church and had been close to Benny in Fairfax – BEFORE he got the axe!
FYI – the impact of my experience with Brent, Mickey, CJ and others, was so devastating I was never able (after 17 years of full-time ministry) to get back into full time ministry or pastoring again. Needless to say it has given me much more time to pastor my wife and family of six children, for which I am grateful.
In the last few weeks (since discovering this site), I have been thinking new thoughts. Thoughts that make me grateful I got out (even though not by choice) when I did; so my family and I did not have to grow up with the toxic influences so many have endured over the last 20 years. That is a totally different perspective for me.
To all who have expressed prayers, empathy, and hugs – THANKS – it means much, even after all these years! Who knows, maybe the limp can be healed, too! (sorry for the lack of brevity)
July 31st, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Welcome to The Refuge, FF!
My heart is aching after reading your comments here… the things we have all experienced while a part of SGM have been difficult, at best. I certainly understand your reasons for wanting to be a part of SGM (or TAG, or Gathering of Believers or PDI…) back in the day… we were all in your shoes at some point. For Jim and I, we cheered the loudest when the opportunity arose for our church to be adopted by SGM. It all looked so good and biblical! If we knew then what we know now… but hindsight is 20/20, right?
Like you, I am glad and so very thankful we are out, but we are not unscathed. While we have forgiven those that sinned against us and hurt us, the bigger picture remains, which is… these terrible, abusive, authoritarian practices have happened far too often to the sheep by SGM leaders/pastors. It must stop.
I continue to pray and hope that SGM leaders/pastors hearts would be changed, that they would see the folly and the foolishness of their ways. I pray and hope that no other sheep would be hurt by these practices.
And I am praying for you, as well… that the limp would be healed, as well as your heart!
July 31st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I Got Out —- if appropriate, could you share the story given out about how Mickey rose to his role of “senior pastorhood?” You say is was “a perverse and destored” story – based on things I have said or things you have known? Can you explain?
July 31st, 2009 at 6:03 pm
A Kindred Spirit wrote’”CrossWay is known in our neck of the woods as an arrogant, legalistic, self-righteous, snobby, ”we’re the ONLY ones doing it ‘biblically’” church. Even the college kids at the local university feel this way.”
Interesting take. I have never visited, and don’t know any of the pastors, but I do have a story that may shine a different light on Crossway. (aren’t there always 3 sides to a story? Yours, Mine and the Truth?)
5 years ago, I got a long distance call from Karen in Charlotte N.C. Her husband had just died of a heart attack. Dave and Karen had left Florida 15 years prior, but we stayed in touch. She and Dave were not into organized religion, but preferred to practice their faith at home.
Karen was devastated and had nowhere to turn. I emailed Crossway, asking if someone could reach out to her. I expected that they might send a card and some flowers, and left it at that. A week later, Karen called me in tears telling me a story of a church that she didn’t even know who were bringing her meals, cleaning her house , and repairing the hole in the ceiling, where the shower water had come threw. (Dave died in the shower when no one was home). Since that time Karen has given her life to Christ, and to this day is still being served continually, as she was diagnosed with brain cancer two years ago. So, sitting in my home in Florida, hearing Karen cry about God’s love being shown through a group fixing her home up because she can’t get around anymore, makes me wonder about the “arrogant” label. That’s Karen’s side of the story. Wonder what the “truth” is.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:10 pm
To all the new folks-welcome-thank you for sharing your stories …praying for you all….
peace-mm
July 31st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Paul – I know of many similar stories through out SGM.Thanks for sharing.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Paul-
I believe your story-I experienced some of this love as well…but I also saw leadership dictating this kind of action to families that could not afford to buy and cook a meal, while they themselves (the pastors) could not be bothered to participate.
I’m gald to hear Karen found Christ through these acts of love…I believe that God never wastes acts of love and uses them to make himself known.
peace-mm
July 31st, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Paul,
Yes, so true. God’s people are kind, giving, and love beyond human understanding because Christ lives His life out through His people–so what can be gleaned by the Karen and Dave story. God is good, and His people are incredible.
The SGM “church” I formerly attended and was a member of had some of the most wonderful people in the world–absolutely incredible. Was the leadership arrogant, especially the Sr. Pastor–YES, beyond measure, but well concealed until you get behind closed doors with him. He smiles and speaks with honey dripping from his words, but there is something very wrong with him and his life–something very very wrong. How do you process the divide? I am not sure, but we left, we ran, we knew, and rejoice that we did. If I mentioned his name, you would all know him or of him. He has hurt many of the innocent sheep that the Lord Jesus is crazy about–very sad in my mind!
July 31st, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Yes Paul, isn’t it sad.
Isn’t it sad when pastors will reach out to someone like Karen, and yet abuse their own sheep. (Just read the stories on this site and survivors.)
It’s somewhat similar to a few emotionally abusive families I know, appearing normal, loving, and caring to some, many times even going out of their way and giving them the shirts off their backs. But behind closed doors, within their own families, it’s quite a different story. Sad.
I’m grateful for the acts of kindness and ministering to the Karen’s, but unfortunately there are FAR MORE folks who have suffered from the arrogance, self-righteousness, legalism, and downright abuse. Thus the reason for the reputation.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Musicman -you said “I believe your story-I experienced some of this love as well…but I also saw leadership dictating this kind of action to families that could not afford to buy and cook a meal, while they themselves (the pastors) could not be bothered to participate. ”
Karen has written how often the pastors and their wives were a part of the outreaches.
I suppose there are those people that would expect the pastor to do all hospital visitation,all home out reaches,etc etc, but I kind of feel like it is the pastor’s job to “equip the saints for works of service”.
You can always find one bad example in any realm – for example ,did you know that Manny Ramiriez is a steroid doper? So, do I stop watching baseball because one player cheats? Or, do I find a team that plays within the rules and root for them?
I’m old enough to go back to the early days of the “Shepherding Movement” where I heard of groups being told what their mission was, without being asked. Heavy handed, I know, but God did give us a mouths to say “No” can’t do that now, but I’d love to help at another time”. I have helped my wife learn how to pronounce the word “NO”. It wasn’t in her vocabulary. Maybe that’s why God blessed her with breast cancer 16 years ago. So that she would have to sit home for three months while a meal was brought to the house every other day, and women from the church came to clean once a week. It was a humbling time for someone who lives to serve, being the recipient of God’s love.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
I also live in another state than “crossway”. I was devastated and disillusioned by the lies, neglect and abuse from my Sr. Pastor of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
When he (the Sr. Pastor of the “local” church in another state) was called on the carpet for the above mentioned abuses, he said he was backed and accountable to “India Boy”, or as veggie tales sings…larry boy….larry boy….
Sovereign Grace Ministries uses fear, control and manipulation to present their “gospel” Paul, if someone recieved care at my “local” church I can guarentee you it Most certainly did not come from the leadership team…but from the saints. Most of the time the Sr Pastor showes up exactly at 10 til 10, so that he doesnt lose his anointing by talking to “sinners”.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:43 pm
SGM is a stepchild of the “shepherding movement!” Their “apostles” and leadership team has its roots deep into that “covering” hocus pocus.
Don’t be blinded by all the NICE things the pastors do too often, in my mind, when the eyes of others are on them, much like our politians and their photo ops. Doing nice things for other happens in ALL organization, religious and otherwise.
SGM has been spiritually abusive, not merely “one bad example.” There are too many legitimate Christian groups to be involved with. SGM is not for me after years on the inside. Are there wonderful brothers and sisters in SGM–yep; does that mean SGM isn’t spiritually abusive, not in my mind or experience.
August 1st, 2009 at 12:29 am
Canary:
We must know each other since you were at the Fairfax church when Brent first came in. My comment earlier about the two elders leaving voluntarily because of other issues wasn’t meant to convey that either of the two men had sin issues. Quite the opposite. Some of us were led to believe that Frank and Dan left because they didn’t want to be the elders of the church. Don’t know if that’s true now.
As for Brent having to look for other work, a friend of mine in the Charlotte church told me he is only going to be out temporarily. He may not have to go through the process of looking for work in the private sector. Unfortunately, for many that Brent let go from their positions, that was not the case.
August 1st, 2009 at 9:03 am
I know the focus seems to be in Charlotte right now because of the Brent situation. But, I believe this is a common thread. And I don’t believe anyone here would discount the acts of kindness and charity that are done in SGM churches. I remember folks rallying around and doing free car washes for the community and going to a shut-in’s house and doing repairs. But, when closely examined, it was almost always a small group of the same folks doing these “unnoticed” things. Good hearted folks, to be sure. And joyful in their service. But never…in the 15 years I was in SGM…honored or acknowledged from the pulpit by the pastors. And I’m sure they didn’t care about that because they were good hearted. All the while, our pastors were patting each other on the back until they had to be black and blue and then, as their children grew, began ramming the college ministry and how incredible they were down our throats. Anyway, there are folks in any church that “get” it. I don’t believe that negates the harm that is done by men who are supposedly called to “pastor” their flocks. It just shows how amazing our God is.
We are not bringing all members of SGM church into this discussion. We are speaking about the leadership in SGM as a movement.
Paul- I am thankful that you taught your wife to say “no”. However, you might be surprised to know that many men in SGM do the exact opposite. Many men, including one I was married to, believe that a woman cannot have a clear thought on her own and must be “led” in every way or else she might, in her subordinate stature, fall flat on her face bringing shame to her “head” (husband). She might actually read a book that could cause her to start having her own thoughts. She might find that she has God-given talent other than cooking, cleaning, and child-rearing. Many men are taught and encouraged to keep their wives neatly tucked away under their thumbs.
My husband was unfaithful to me. When our pastor found out, the ONLY thing he did was ask my husband if was sorry and if he had his lust under control. My husband said yes and that was the end of that…no, and I do mean no, concern for me and my pain. No accountability for my husband. No words of direction (other than “forgive and move on”) for me. When I struggled, I was told I was bitter. And the sad truth is, after years of this…I was bitter. But not just at my ambivalent husband…also at my heartless “boys club” pastors. When I caught him committing other sin of the same nature and went crying to my care group leader, I was told that perhaps I needed to “make myself more available to him”. Nothing was ever said to my husband. And of course, that’s all he needed to condone and continue his sin.
I imagine for every story of compassion that you can bring, we can bring a story of heartbreak and pain from a leader. If, rather than lashing back when these issues come to light, the SGM leadership (and their loyal followers) took a humble approach and acknowledge and address these things, I don’t believe this site would even be in existance. When you are hurt (and not just a little boo-boo) by your pastor and they blow you off and deny things, or even say “well what about this wonderful thing going on in our church”, that’s not good. We all screw up. We all make mistakes. It’s a stretch to believe that there would be this many folks who have the experiences they claim to have and NONE of them be true.
I know mine are true.
Mack- what you just said about your friend’s report of Brent returning to his position…this is what I feared from the beginning. His son (who most certainly isn’t perfect) will end up being the sacrificial lamb for his father’s sake.
August 1st, 2009 at 9:50 am
I Got Out…
Great comment and insight in your 9:03!! I’m truly sorry for your pain through your experience with your SGM church… thanks for sharing.
August 1st, 2009 at 9:52 am
Friendly Fire:
Thanks for sharing. What ever happened to Bud Black at Solid Rock? At one point it seemed like he was a part of CJ’s posse, than all of sudden he is gone. I am not surprised because that is the way SGM works. At one point in time, you can do no wrong than all of a sudden you are on the outside looking in for reasons that are generally highly subjective.
August 1st, 2009 at 10:03 am
Mack:
I remember Dan and Frank and I think that there only “sin” was that they were not fully aligned wit the new regime. You might also remember a pastor named CL who narrowly averted being removed by Brent only to eventually suffer the same fate years later for reasons that were a bit subjective. Forunately for this pastor he was put himself into a good post SGM career.
August 1st, 2009 at 10:54 am
To “I Got Out” — your story sounds like something out of a horror flick. I am not sure how you survived. Your account of “selective” judgment and consequences on the part of the leaders seems typical. If they like you and you are towing the “party” line, it is hard for you to do wrong, and if you do – no big deal – say a few “hail mary’s” – say your sorry and all is OK. If you are on their “black” list, even errant thoughts can get you excommunicated. This is why when I appealed to the “A” team about Brent’s abuse 20 years ago, nothing was done except to say, I had an attitude problem, a pride problem, I wasn’t thankful enough for them kicking the crap out of me, etc. etc. The ones on the “inside” are protected at any cost. But if you question too many ridiculous decisions, appear a little too negative about the party line, or don’t swallow all the new doctrines coming down the line……. suddenly you have serious issues and must be dealt with!
“formersgmer” – Only suspicions about BB at Solid Rock. No facts. Like all of us, he had his issues, so they moved on to the next young inexperienced leader they could fully control! I remember once when after many years I got up the nerve (when BB, was pastor – he was one of my former “disciples” and elders – before Brent) to go back and attend a service at Solid Rock. It was extremely surreal. BB recognized me in the service and made a bland statement about how I had played a “role” in getting the church started a dozen or so years before. When I stood for recognition, the congregation (still primarily made up of my spiritual children and their children) broke out into a huge standing ovation that seemed to go on for way too long.
It was a “healing” moment from all the rejection, berating, and condemnation Brent and Mickey had heaped on me a dozen years before. There I stood in the middle of the building I had built, in the middle of the congregation I had by God’s grace raised up…and they were affirming me…after all those years.
I wept and wept. After the service an elderly gentlemen who knew me well and had been a close friend in yesteryears, came to me and said in a low voice: “I know what BB said about your “role” in starting the church. We know the fact is there would not be a church here if it had not been for you.” Then he gave me a big hug. After several such “affirmings” from past congregants I left feeling better than in years about who I was and the “fruit” of my past labors.
Short lived though it was to be. Not long after returning to my home I got a letter from BB telling me how full my life was with unrepentant sin. He picked up where Brent and Mickey left off telling me how full of pride and sin my life was and how I could not come back to the church anymore to visit, unless I repented. To say the least, I was again devastated … after once again being emotionally assassinated. I guess it was too much for BB to see all that love and affirmation going out to a “marked” man who had been rejected by the apostles.
I got over that episode … I think … but the limp remains. God is faithful. I feel his love – always!
August 1st, 2009 at 12:04 pm
To “I Got Out”,
What perfect descriptions of the many people within SGM who serve and care for one another…and the distinct disconnect of ‘pastor’ leaders who do not—though do consistently honor themselves for their humble service to the sheeples. (???)
True that—it is a significant common thread throughout sgm.
Also, the ‘counsel’ you received from the pastors and cgl in regards to your husbands unfaithfulness is EXACTLY the same given to our family member!! His sin of sexual unfaithfulness (and he was a leader in the church) was poo-poohed because he would always “repent” and her pain and hurt were called selfish. Also the pastor counseled her to “make yourself more available” to him— as if that were the answer for his sexual straying.–which is the same ‘counsel’ you received—sounds like another area where they all concur for the answers to give wounded people. What is this sickening common denominator????????—- Control at every level and whatever the cost…… We as a family are sooooo thankful to have been discarded by sgm leadership and see the truth of what goes on within sgm leadership…the Voice and nearness of Jesus,the comfort of Holy Spirit and affirmation of His care…walking WITH Him—without a sgm dictator in between us….we are relearning and knowing our Lord as Redeemer….and I pray that you and ‘Friendly Fire’ are flooded with His affirming unfailing love.
August 1st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I got out,
I am a faith ful reader and an occasional poster to all the truth bearing sovereign grace ministries sites. Some behind the scenes know my story, but none publically. When I read what I write occasionally, I can tell…I’m still pissed off….I am really mad about what happened to all parties involved, I am hurt and mad at what happened and is still happening to my relatives there at Sovereign Grace and I am pissed off to see the way the youth have been mistreated, lied to, and ignored and the horrible results of that in this movement of churches. Or uhhhh religious sect. I’m ticked at the Pastor for lying, and covering it up, I’m appalled at the men who took his side although he was clearly wrong..Kiss A is what we call it on the streets. Oh and what a piece of work his wife is..
Reciently some one was speaking at a womens event. The fear based adjectives were unbelievable. That a certain lifestyle was DANGEREOUS, that IF YOU DIDNT DO WHAT THE TOPIC WAS, YOU MALIGNED THE WORD OF GOD…(Please show me that in scripture reference…), that we must cultivate a self suspicion (sp) and that left to “our selves…we would be xy and z, and leave our husbands and whatever whatever whatever to our children” The two points that were almost comical to me were “go back to your church and seek out your pastors wife..what a joke. Really…and to grow you must be in the greenhouse of your local church…gag ola.
In other churches, the ministries are endless, feed the poor, flood relief, ministry to foster care system in the county which includes regular prayer for those needing a home, book studies, bible studies, local mission work, out reach to singles, drug addicts, etc……at the church where I left, their ministries include….REGULAR CHILDRENS MINISTRIES, LEADERSHIP CARE AND WORSHIP TEAM MINISTRY. These folks do not have a clue what ministry looks like outside the “local church”, then they try to make you feel scared that God would maybe use your gifts in the community or at a JOB etc…The pastor said that once you identify your spiritual gifts you can use them at home or in your caregroup….NOT A CLUE..
Maybe just maybe, the Holy Spirit put a dream in your heart for the salvation of others, Jim and Carole for the encouragement of MANY that has nothing to do with the local church at all. Maybe God will protect his sons and daughters, and hear their cries, Maybe the Holy Spirit will convict us of sin, and with time and through His process we will change and surrender. Maybe the Lord will give us creative minstries that are rooted in love and Prayers that will sustain even the weakest. Maybe He will provide..Maybe just maybe…
I got out, I GOT OUT…..and it sure feels good to talk about it.
August 1st, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Am I in moderation because of my choice of strong feeling words???
August 1st, 2009 at 2:30 pm
LOL, Charlie! No, it’s the Wordpress thing again… WP randomly puts comments in moderation. I thought the glitch would have been rectified by now…
August 1st, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Paul- I didn’t mean to say that a pastor should do all the outreach or home visits…I just don’t know why they can show so much care and love to an outsider, and then be so uncaring and callous to families and friends who have been a part of their lives for years, even decades…. Shouldn’t those who shepherd be able to be loving and caring to both-is that too much to ask?
August 1st, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Isn’t it sad when pastors will reach out to someone like Karen, and yet abuse their own sheep. (Just read the stories on this site and survivors.)
It’s somewhat similar to a few emotionally abusive families I know, appearing normal, loving, and caring to some, many times even going out of their way and giving them the shirts off their backs. But behind closed doors, within their own families, it’s quite a different story. Sad.
AKS……how true that is…..and it’s been happening for years….
August 1st, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Mack,
Thanks. I was only clarifying that there was no sin on Frank or Dan’s part that led to them being asked to step down. I was agreeing with your asessment.
Looking back, seeing a pattern through the years, what else were F and D suppose to do but eventually leave? They had the congregation’s love and deep loyalty. That would not have gone away. We were suppose to give all that love and loyalty (unearned) to the new guys. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were somehow led to believe that it was best for the congregants to leave quietly, so that there would be no division in this love and loyalty. It has happened before in SGM history.
If I’d known then what we all do now, I would have followed Frank and Dan to whatever church they went to, just to continue to learn from them. Their love for God and His people was so evident! Their wives were also gems, and equally important to us all.
So, it appears that Brent’s “resignation” might only be temporary? That is what they told Larry T. Benny P. was also never given his church back. Does Brent have a special way back in? I suspect he will follow the “discipline” he has been given, and end up somewhere else in the SGM machine. Has anyone ever seen a shanked pastor return to his former position? I’m curioius, if someone out there knows this.
FormerSGMer,
As for C. L. – he and his wife were also wonderful. He had a true pastor’s heart, and N. had the same. They loved God’s people. I remember them from the early days before we became PDI. I am glad they have landed on their feet.
Paul, a story comes to mind concerning C and L as they helped to pastor in Fairfax. Our home group learned that they were adopting a baby, but had to save money for the process (they could not have children). Our small group took almost a year to save up our pennies, extra change to give to them (none of us were wealthy). When we finally had the needed amount, we invited them to one of our meetings and gave it to them. They had no idea this was going on. They were so overwhelmed by our love and support.
That following week (isn’t God’s timing great?), they were told that a baby was available for them. Sortly after that, on Mother’s Day, they stood up to announce that N. was pregnant! Since this was scientifically impossible, we all were witness to a miracle. I think C. even went back to the Dr.’s to share the miracle. How we gloried in God. I believe N. went on to have several more children.
Anyway, I tell that story to say that yes, the people of God are wonderfully generous, kind, and giving. There was much love and serving done throughout the years I was in SGM. Some of that was done freely, some of it was compelled. We were signed up for ministry, at times, whether we’d volunteered or not. If someone said “no” to something, it was generally a “no-no”, and you were made to feel it. In an effort to control/organize the sheeple, our freedoms were strangled. This happened gradually, like water coming to boil slowly. Your friend might fall into the timeline where our freedom in Christ wasn’t so cut off.
However, it is a story that should inspire us all, that this poor woman did not have to suffer alone, and that she came to Jesus. Wonderful!
August 1st, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Charlie, I go into moderation most of the time! Hee-hee, we have a little coffee clutch there. Pull up a chair! (just kidding with you Jim and Carole!)
August 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
People are nice for many shaded reasons. If our niceness doesn’t originate from Him living out His live through us, then it’s our polished up or Christianized flesh looking to impress and receive accolades or to medicate our deep seated guilt feelings to name a few. Jesus said, “without me, you can do nothing.”
Doesn’t much of the language we hear in the institutional “church” teach us how to improve our flesh with cloaked words of the gospel and grace, BUT in reality it is WORKS. You know: “God’s good; I am bad, try harder.” And we do, and live out of our religious flesh and wonder why it isn’t working, and we are sooooooooo tired. We read where Jesus beckones us to come to Him for rest, and we just race over those words because we are too busy serving the “christian machine.” We innately know we should, but what will leadership and are busy friends think?
We have made a mess out of this thing called the “church!” We have pretty much made a mess out of how we allow leaders to be raised up. We have made that into pretty much of a political or power paradigm. Look at how it is done in SGM–Please give me a barf bag. I better close this while I am not in too much hot water.
August 1st, 2009 at 5:14 pm
Canary, did I see the word “sheeple“????????
You belong to THE SAVAGE NATION?
August 1st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Paul,
Sorry, did I offend? We have used the word “sheeple” on this blog at times to refer to the sheep who are following. I don’t know what THE SAVAGE NATION refers to. Could you explain?
August 1st, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Aw GD, I think we know you well enough here on the blog to realize that you have a hatred of this kind of injustice, fake-church, controlling leader type thing. I think it is permissable every now and then to say just how mad it makes you. It is good to see men get stirred up over this issue, because they will most likely be the ones to change it. We women won’t be permitted to lead the charge because of the gender issue. However, I’ll do my share of the squaking and flapping of wings! When it comes to defending the wounded, this woman’s gentle, quiet spirit seems to fly out the window.
August 1st, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Canary,
Thanks for your kindness and understanding words, as usual. I welcome your squaking and flapping anytime. Regarding the gender issues, both genders can speak the truth in love!
August 1st, 2009 at 7:35 pm
GD,
Regarding the gender issues, both genders can speak the truth in love!
That’s the truth. But only some men see the wisdom in listening to women except their wives. Not to divert the conversation to gender issues, I was thinking today that I doubt there have been any women involved in any of the sgm decision making from day one (except wifely input). I don’t ever remember seeing it. Perhaps if churches would treat their women as valued equals, with equal gifting, some of the extremes we are witnessing today might have been avoided. The feminine voice might have softened a lot of the choices that leaders have made. Maybe the church wouldn’t have ended up being treated like a corporation. Perhaps the gentle nature of woman could have prevented some of the wounds from ever happening. But we will never know.
At this point, I say again that men like you, Fred, and Jim, to name a few, have led this charge for SGM to see the truth. Men’s decisions within SGM will effect the outcome of true reform. It is men who fire men, and men who decide which leaders stay and which will go. With more of you guys speaking out, well, maybe more of the leadership will take notice. I do not devalue the womens’ voices here, such as Carole, Gracie, Ellie, Esther, and others. I just truly wish that churches would consider the worth of these beautiful voices, consider that they too have the spirit of God within them, that they too have ideas that should be heard equally.
I hope to see that in my lifetime. I have certainly noticed that you and Fred, in particular, encourage us girls when we share. Jim lets us speak our minds. That is refreshing after so many years of being considered 2nd class by the sgm churches I was involved in. Thanks, guys.
August 1st, 2009 at 7:48 pm
FormerSGMer
I do know the former pastor at Fairfax with the initials CL. He and his wife lived with us for a short time while waiting for a home to be built. We also adopted from the same agency as they did so we were all good friends. He indeed has landed on his feet and seems to be doing very well. Yay!!
August 1st, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Canary…could we speak sometime soon? I am interested in asking you a few questions.
August 1st, 2009 at 8:01 pm
August 1st, 2009 at 8:33 pm
FriendlyFire
July 30th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Two weeks after we dedicated the building in 1989, Brent, Mickey C, and two other leaders I had discipled, met with me in my office and told me I was proud, unteachable, self-centered, contentious, and unqualified to lead the church that I had founded 14 years before.
***
Friendly Fire… your story … wow. Just… wow! So much to say about the progression of your ouster. I’m debating diving into the progression specifically on my blog dealeo.
>shrug< haven’t made up my mind just yet … but this seems germane here.
Un-teachable. That wonderful SGM catch all criticism full of such profound manipulation: reject ANY of their council and affirm the observation.
But the endless levels of irony implicit to THEIR critique make howl with hilarity.
For heaven sake they have adopted lock, stock, and barrel a turn key theological system with little or no critical review of the content. For all of their vaunted scholasticism they are profoundly intellectually sloppy, playing whatever side of the intellectual fence that suits their purpose. And never once have you heard them hold themselves to a logical consistency of cause and effect.
I’ve met very few men who are so intellectually recalcitrant, and I’ve met men who make concrete seem mentally fluid.
The only reason they can persist down the path they are on is because they can cover their intellectual passivity with the overarching threat of their governmental force.
Challenge their intellectual conclusions and suffer their collectivist wrath.
Care less about their collectivist wrath and soon they quit the field. They would like to pretend it is because the conflict is beneath them but don’t be fooled they leave because they can’t hack the intellectual rigor of their own tyranny.
The elements of tyranny are always the same: Universal Guilt, Incompetent Masses, Dictated Good, Abolition of Ambition, Collective Conformity.
Resist any of the first three and tyranny falls apart. This is why they work so hard to define their dictation of Good as the defining standard of Righteous action. This is why they use those wonderful manipulative assertions: You are Un-teachable. They are defending the primary elements of tyranny.
August 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 am
Not at all Canary, “The Savage Nation” refers to listeners of Michael Savage. Best talk show host in America. He uses the term Sheeple. Only time I’ve every heard it and he makes a sheep’s “bleet’ sound after he says it, It’s a riot. I was just asking if you were a fan.
If you are political conservative, you have to listen to him sometime. He’s an equal opportunity offender. He calls the two parties the Demicans and Republicrats.
Where most talk radio is all political, he will drop politics totally and start talking about crazy things that happened to him growing up as a kid visiting the Catskills. He is a nice relief from the none stop politics from most other talk radio.
August 2nd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Thanks, Paul! I am a political conservative, and will check out Mike Savage. My Mom, who listens to talk radio a lot, will probably know him.
John,
I’ve met very few men who are so intellectually recalcitrant, and I’ve met men who make concrete seem mentally fluid.
Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha-! You have such a way with words!
August 2nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I resemble that statement, John…
August 2nd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
In all these comments, nobody has identified the reason that Brent stepped down. Is it simply because nobody actually knows?
August 2nd, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Friendly fire, I am so so so sorry. God gives back the years the locusts have eaten. May it all work for great good.
I wanted to a make general comment as somebody who went to a ( very good) PCA church after PDI and now goes to a good PCA church in another state.
THE PROBLEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH REFORMED DOCTRINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reformed doctrine truly understood leads to a grasp of our total dependency on God ( and prayer instead of self reliance). The great doctrines of grace are supposed to strip us of all arrogance. Understanding sin is not a tool to manipulate people but a deep reality that helps us be more grateful to the saviour.
I could go on, but having been around REAL Reformed people instead of reformed wannabes, I know how great Calvinism and the old confessions are in understanding sound doctrine. Wonderful authors out there- Spurgeon, Edwards, Iain Murray’s bios, etc. Please do not throw the baby out with the bathwater!!! SGM is selectively Reformed.
August 2nd, 2009 at 8:58 pm
John,
that’s exactly right….and so well put….as usual.
We are glad to hear from you.
August 2nd, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Canary, Savage is different than most conservative radio hosts who barely have a high school diploma. (I stole from Wikipedia) He holds masters in medical botany and medical anthropology and he earned a Ph.D. from UC Berkley , in nutritional ethnomedicine. In 1996, Savage applied to become the Dean of the Grad School of Journalism at UC Berkley. The University instead selected award-winning journalist and Vietnam War protestor Orville Schell. Savage sued the University, contending he was discriminated against because he was a conservative.The rejection of his 1994 manuscript prompted him to record a demo tape with a mock radio talk show about illegal immigrants and epidemics. He mailed this tape to 250 radio stations in an attempt to change careers and become a radio talk show host. He is now the #3 talk show host in the country and the rest is history. My Mom is 84 and loves him so you and your Mom probably will too.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
SGAVA,
You are correct, noone actually knows why Brent stepped down because there were no reasons given except for “pride” , “untreatability” and unwillingness to listen. He was asked to resign at the family meeting 2 saturdays ago.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 am
5 years-the TR’s would label me as selectively reformed as well, but I’m with you on the baby/bathwater.
BTW-no need to yell
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 am
5 years,
It is always good to have reminders of that. Several people who have already left SGM locally have told me this and seeing people comment here on the blogs is also helpful as I’m sifting through what is true and what got horribly mixed up… SGM was my first exposure to “labeled”, reformed theology. I’m trying to get over the yuk factor I have when I see a Spurgeon or Piper quote as he and Piper have been quoted FAR more often in my church than scripture. so sad.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:40 am
sgava-I don’t have details. I’m told that the announcement at Crossway was detailed, as opposed to using broad “sin categories”. Again, from what I’ve heard, this is a good thing. All of this could have been swept under the rug, allowing Brent to deliver a “time to retire” statement.
I’d welcome anyone in attendance at either meeting (Grace or Crossway) to submit details.
What I’d like to avoid is 10 year old stories-”Brent did this or that”. What’s the point in peeing on his tombstone?
BRENT IS OUT OF LEADERSHIP.
This chapter in SGM history is closed. Let’s pray for all involved.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
MTE-you were in moderation when I posted. I was told that the statement at CW was detailed. I assumed that it was similar to the statement at Grace.
Maybe you know someone at CW you could ask, unless this would result in having to wear the scarlet “G”.
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Sometimes peeing on a tombstone is therapeutic…it depends on where the victim is at in the healing process.
I know of an abusive father who went to his grave without ever changing. I’m happy to share that all of his children eventually forgave him and are now Christians (God’s love and grace). There were angry phases in their healing process where there was some “tombstone peeing” going on!
August 3rd, 2009 at 2:23 pm
A Kindred Spirit, my mom n dad adopted my sister from the foster care system. She had been abused for years by her dad. I wanted to kill this guy (yes, I know it isn’t Christlike, but …oh well) My Mom taught my sister to forgive her father and move on, placing him in God’s hands, who would judge him. 30 years later, she is married, 2 kids, well adjusted, loves Christ. Her sister was adopted by another family that gave her a punching bag and told to pretend it was her father. Her sister has been in and out of institutions, several suicide attempts, and is still a mess.
Somehow, God gave my sister the grace to forgive him and move on. ( I always wanted to kill the guy, which is why my Mom never told me who he was)
You are so right about God’s grace and love. I saw it in action with two daughters from the same father, one taught to place it in God’s hands and forgive, and the other taught to “keep the rage it’s good for you”.
(Jim, I didn’t want to post my name to protect my sister’s privacy – please keep it that way, okay?)
August 3rd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
People can process abuse in different ways even when counseled the same. Thank God your sister is doing well! However you really don’t know what those sisters went thru individually and how they processed their experiences before being rescued from the abuse. Someone who has been abused doesn’t always follow a pattern in their healing, even under the best of circumstances.
btw: why did you always want to kill the guy? I’m sure your Mom taught you to place things in God’s hands also?
btw2: No need to admonish Jim to not post your name, he wouldn’t do that.
August 3rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
“Anonymus”,
I can relate…”She had been abused for years by her dad. I wanted to kill this guy (yes, I know it isn’t Christlike, but …oh well)”
We’re “Kindred Spirits”!
I don’t tolerate abuse very well…ESPECIALLY by those in positions God designed for us to look to for unconditional love and support the most…parents, spouses, and pastors!!
August 3rd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Hey Ellie!!
Hmmm, I’m a little slow…did I miss something? I thought Anunymous was agreeing with the “peeing” part, AND the “love and grace” part that can only come from God to forgive such.
Sometimes people just need a little time to pee, and then they feel better.
I find I need to use “Poise Pads” these days. (a little private joke with Carol)
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I agree with not “peeing on the tombstone” to a degree but I also think someone mentioned that this wasn’t a permanent thing with Brent being asked to step down. Skeptical ‘ole me wonders if this could be a “let’s let Brent step back long enough for the dust to settle and then back he’ll come” tactic.
I’m also a bit skeptical about how this was handled at Crossway. My understanding from a family that was involved in the issues with Brent’s son was that they received an e-mail from Mickey asking them to keep things on the lowdown to “protect a brother’s reputation”. If they flip-flopped and came down hard on Brent, that seems a bit contradictory.
I think my reasoning in telling some of what I went through at Crossway was because it’s still happening and people are still being hurt and also because I am skeptical about what’s going on behind the scenes with all this Brent stuff now. I would hate to see this directed broadly in terms of “pride, etc” and then a year from now we hear “Brent’s humble now, let’s bring him back”. I say, let’s get specific and deal with the real issues…do the surgery where the surgery needs to be done.
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
I Got Out,
I hope that you know that I wasn’t referring to you, or to anyone else who has posted in this thread. I purposely did not re-read the comments before I mentioned what I’d like to avoid.
I’m thinking that this story barely has legs at this point, and am thinking of future commenters.
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Of course not!! Thanks for clarifying, though.
And I see where you’re coming from. I understand from one of the posters ,who I happen to know well personally, that you and your wife have been in contact with a family integrally involved with the preludes to this story so you know many of the details. I, too, know this family and many of the same details. Having lived here in Charlotte for many years and being right, smack-dab in the middle of the goings-on, I do feel like this is kind of a big deal. And I don’t trust that this whole “stepping down” thing is the end of the story. I think too many things have occurred that could be considered shady and I’m hopeful that the Lord will reveal each and every one of them…should it be His good pleasure to do so.
Plus, these same folks at CW and Grace who are now coming down on Brent, did likewise to me with absolutely no grace at all and I’m finding myself hurting in ways I’d hoped to forget. Part of me is hopeful that Brent will hurt like that so that he will remember what it feels like in the future and will NEVER do it to another person again. Sometimes the hard way can be the best way to learn a lesson.
Make any sense at all?
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:45 pm
I agree, I Got Out…
“I think my reasoning in telling some of what I went through at Crossway was because it’s still happening and people are still being hurt and also because I am skeptical about what’s going on behind the scenes with all this Brent stuff now. I would hate to see this directed broadly in terms of “pride, etc” and then a year from now we hear “Brent’s humble now, let’s bring him back”. I say, let’s get specific and deal with the real issues…do the surgery where the surgery needs to be done.”
I fear this may be EXACTLY what happens. And you’re right, it IS still happening and people are being hurt!
August 3rd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Kindred,
That’s what I need to know (as the guy with the blog. Jim P is soooo done with SGM). The people I have talked to recently have told me that there is a new Mc C. I’ve heard that he is hearing people, not turning the tables, and is apparently open to questions and criticism.
If this is not the case, and Mc C is currently beating the sheep, I want to know about it.
August 3rd, 2009 at 5:25 pm
I know this is all serious. And like in my situation…lives are being jerked around, while fools are being honored.
Maybe Brent was asked to step down, because he….laughed out of place, was not grateful enough, wanted to hear himself talk, interupted others, was to shy, was to loud, used to many words to describe anything, is lazy, worked on Sunday, had gas on Monday…ect ect ect…ITS THE 50 FRUITS OF PRIDE. The guy had to have falled in there somewhere. I feel the need to talk to quizler….
Quizler…is it more prideful for me to….
1..Speak up when something is wrong, even if it is a leader
2. Not say anything at all…Kinda like turn a bind eye…
3. Just walk away…or run run run run runaway…
I weep with those who weep….charlie
August 3rd, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Charlie…………….
You said………… ” is it more prideful for me to….
1..Speak up when something is wrong, even if it is a leader
2. Not say anything at all…Kinda like turn a bind eye…
3. Just walk away…or run run run run runaway…”
Quizzler says………..
You will find your answer in Eph 5:11…………Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
After you have exposed them………………then run and don’t look back.
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
August 3rd, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I would agree that Mc C is listening to hard questions and critisim and not turning the tables. I have asked some doozie of questions and he has apologized where necessary and has sincerely listened and helped out in ways that he didn’t have to. I have truly felt cared for by him. I too have a story and have been hurt by SGM pastors, so I understand the hurt. I believe, just as God is working in each of our lives, he too is working in the lives of the pastors that are spoken of here. I am learning to forgive and love those who have hurt me. It is a process, but a process I know that pleases my heavenly Father and isn’t that what really matters?
August 3rd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
InChrist,
I’ve asked Jim to forward my email address to you. Feel free to drop me a line!
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Oh no … not the baby with the bathwater argument. Who can overcome that!?
LOL… never mind me… I’m just being perpetually 12.
>snicker<
So… uh… yeah. I’m curios too. What exactly about Brent’s trip to the bull pen makes this reform? I mean whatever his personality fopaux if he’s been benched because of charlie’s “laughed out of place, was not grateful enough, wanted to hear himself talk, interrupted others, was to shy, had gas …” blab la blab la is more of the same.
The fact that pride is attached to anyone’s character from SGM is really irrelevant. That is the catchall uber bad, low down dirty rotten trait of anyone that says anything not on the approved gesticulation list.
And besides who can really ever escape said uber bad, low down dirty rotten character trait anyhow? So what is the diff?
Even if Brent is Pride Sinner Extraordinary (PSE for those of you addicted to acronyms) how exactly do we trust the assessment? SGM redefines most anything for their own non altruistic benefit, as we have all experienced. Larry T was sent to hoosgow because he was prideful…. And come to find out he had to sign a prewritten letter by (who was it that wrote that letter me wonders?)
We were all told that Larry was sent to the character challenged minor leagues and then Larry says nah… I disagreed with the doctrinal refocus. (Dang it Larry… remember NOT THE BABY!)
If history illustrates much with this bunch they really only send the intellectually dissenting packing. When folk break party discipline is when they usually get sent to the Gulag for re-education. And if the electo-shock therapy doesn’t re-energize their reformed theology senses. They get sent to Siberia—opps I mean –Brownsville.
So who’s to say that Brent didn’t utter the forbidden words: “uh guys, maybe we aren’t doing this right?”
And the SGM big dogs said: “Brent don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.”
I mean … I’m just saying…
What if Brent is the AGENT of change in all of this. What if he’s the HeeeRow?!!
O do so luuuv irony.
There is this thought….
Since I’m am wont to identify cause and effect I gotta ponder this …
did Brent ever loose his hair? The folk at the top have hair covetousness: this is easy to discern. (psst… Brent, shave it all off brother—represent!)
“Tonto, Butch Cavendish made two of the Hole-in-the-Wall-Gang take a break from their pillaging and plundering.”
“Hmm, Kemo Sabie, Great Spirit say sounds like reform.”
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 pm
John,
Please note the “I’m told” in the post. The “I’m told” in point 3 refers to the level of “apostolic oversight”, re Harvey’s polity document. Brent, being Brent, was not treated as a church planter, but as the sr p of a mature church. The org got involved when they were called upon by the leaders in Brent’s church, as opposed to getting shanked from on high.
So I’m told…
I talk to a lot of people in SGM. Some are friends of the blog, and some are not.
What is encouraging to me is to hear friends of the blog say that things are changing. Is it the reform I’d like to see? You know me well enough to know the answer to that question.
I’m hearing that sheep beating has greatly decreased in some areas.
After over a year of hearing countless horror stories, is it wrong to rejoice when I hear that the overlords are taking it down a notch?
August 4th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Some random thoughts….
“….asked to resign at a family meeting..
After several “family meetings” that dealt with criminal activity and consensual sexual sins, anytime I hear the words “family meeting” I start to shake and shiver.
My own personal SGM story is something I would never tell to a non-believer, and have rarely shared with other Christians, because the way the situation was handled dishonors the cause of Christ, and I wouldn’t want anyone to think poorly of the Church because of it. Thankfully, it doesn’t hurt anymore, and what I thought I lost has been replaced and multipled by the loving hand of God.
August 4th, 2009 at 1:27 am
Jim,
As I said in an earlier post, I’m very skeptical when it comes to Mickey “changing his spots.” Time will tell if he’s sincere…he’s a master at PR.
The following is a quote by Kris from a new post on survivors…
“I can say that from my perspective, the only thing that has really changed is that SGM leaders have learned how to avoid the more obvious (i.e. potentially legally damaging) pitfalls of abusing their authority. The organization as a whole has also stepped away from openly teaching their cultural expectations. And when they do venture into specifics (such as the teaching about how to choose your child’s education), they are very careful to issue lots of disclaimers…even as there is virtually no way that a spiritually sensitive person could come away from the teaching with anything but the main point that the pastor was really intending to make.
So yeah, on the surface, there have been some changes, many of these for the better. Especially if you’re someone who just sort of goes with the flow and basically follows the SGM lifestyle ideals in the first place, you’ll probably encounter leadership that’s less intrusive and controlling than in past years.”
I agree with Kris.
If change is sincere, it will stand the test of time. CrossWay is a church that has been deep in ALL the garbage for YEARS!! It has been led and nfluenced by Mickey, Larry, and Brent. Many of the hardline SGM families are still in tact there. For change to be taking place it would take alot of people doing alot of changing in a short period of time…that’s tough!! Granted, Mickey wields that kind of control to get what he wants, but is it sincere and true change?
The CW members I interact with and observe still behave the same way they always have. (Obviously I don’t interact with everyone.) How long does it take for sheep to reflect change? What’s Mickey saying in his sermons and teachings these days? Has he suddenly had the scales fall from his eyes and admitted to the abuse by SGM and his part in it, publicly repented for his wrongdoings, and vowed to change everything? (And if he has…is he STILL a SGM pastor…and is CrossWay STILL a SGM church?)
Or is he giving the “appearance” of listening and keeping the “tables still”…skillfully handling people’s concerns like any good PR man would do?
It would be huge, Jim. It would be VERY huge. It would be as huge as CJ and CLC changing.
It’s not for me to judge. Time will judge.
Beauty for Ashes, I pray what you’re seeing and feeling is real. I truly do.
August 4th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Kindred,
Agreed-time will be the judge. We don’t know why men like McC have changed their MO in private meetings, where the real damage is done. I’m just glad it’s happened and hope it lasts.
The reform I’m looking for involves the clergy/laity divide.
To misquote Ronald Reagan, “Mr Mahaney, tear this wall down”.
August 4th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I agree with Kindred. Maybe they have changed the MO but I am still troubled by the attempt to cover it up and keep in under wraps. When the scenario had already gone too far for that to have happened, then this “new, improved” Mickey surfaces. At least that what it seems to look like. I wonder, if the testimony we had earlier in reference to others at Grace taking a “Brent” approach to Brent is true (which I have no reason to believe it isn’t), is Mickey being magnanimous because others have lined up to be hard-lined so he can afford to come across gracious.
I just say, for me, that I am taking a “wait and see” approach. It isn’t that I don’t want to believe than God can and will make the changes that need to be made in the hearts of His people. But, I was a part of the mess in Charlotte and saw what was done to others, saw the “routine” first-hand and up close, and was even the target of it myself when I didn’t tow the SGM line.
I’ve gone on the FB pages/blogspot pages of some of the current folks involved in the Charlotte churches. It would appear that the superior mindedness is still alive and well. Hopefully, if Mickey truly has seen the error of SGM ways, he’ll truly humble himself and address it from the pulpit as readily as he and Brent addressed SGM outcasts’ sins from the pulpit so that he can begin to lead his flock on a more truly humble and gracious path. I think if I heard that was happening, I might have a little more confidence in what’s going on.
But, then again, this isn’t about me…God can heal me with or without Mickey or Brent’s help.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:10 am
You will notice that all the “churches” that the “apostle” Gene Emerson is over have active web site EXCEPT Grace Community. Up until now the web site was active with BD’s mug shot on the front page. What is your take on that? click here, then choose GC.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:29 am
I too am so very thankful as Jim said that ”the overlords are taking it down a notch“. I too am very thankful that the abuse has lessened for now, HOWEVER….. May I remind all what Gene Emerson said to the 3 couples in Chesapeake in December… “I too hurt my people when I was a young pastor. They [pastors in Chesapeake] just need to learn a different way.” I am very concerned that they are “learning a different way”. This is very different than having a heart change and conviction over sin and wrongdoing. This is very different than a change that comes about when the Spirit of God moves in your heart, breaking your heart over your sin and you fall on your face in repentance. This is very different than when the Spirit of God comes in and totally transforms your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. This is why I am still very, very concerned that it is whitewashing. Once again making the outside of the cup clean while the inside is still filthy dirty. Let’s face it – these men have been walking in fear of losing all that they have: their very livelihoods are at stake not to mention, their reputations, power, prestige, admiration, etc. Truly, they have been facing the very doors of their churches being closed and for sale signs in the yards. This is all great motivation for change.
Has anyone in any of the churches seen and heard even just one pastor standing in front of their congregation with true heartfelt repentance and brokeness over their sin against God and the people? Maybe so but I have not heard of nor have I seen it. When we do hear of this, when we do see this and it is genuine, then we can begin to think, maybe things really are different. Until then, I will remain thankful that fewer people are being abused, that food pantries have been established, etc but I will absolutely remain in prayer for them, hopeful that the very foundation of this movement is destroyed and that a new foundation which is built upon worship of Jesus Christ is established. Until then I remain very, very cautious and yes, skeptical that true change is here.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Here’s quite possibly the quote of the year:
God can heal me with or without Mickey or Brent’s help.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:23 am
I hope change has in fact happened and is genuine, and not a PR move.
We all know God can do anything, but typically change takes time…lots of time. Rarely does it happen over night. If you’ve ever tried to make a DRASTIC change in your life, you know firsthand how hard change is…especially personality change or a lifestyle change.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Fred,
A food pantry was established, out of the chuch I got to “view” of 4 shelves, 5 boxes of cereal, 2 jars of PB and J, some little debbies, 4 boxes of mac and cheese and some paper towels and dish soap. Um it has sat there for the last 4 months untouched, and not added to. Next time I run into the food pantry I will eat the little debbies…I promise you that… Meanwhile our brothers and sisters in Christ down the street at Bob the builder church are feeding hundreds each week, both with hot meals and boxed groceries. Oh yeah, you have to be a Sovereign Grace Member in right standing or at least in the foundations class, and currently reading money possesions and eternity to access cereal stash. I think it is so arrogant to stand up and say we are making sooooo many changes we have a food pantry when really it is a dusty closet no one goes into. If that is not insult enough…
Last week a message was preached about the dreaded church in Corinth…The SP got his shovel out and tried to dig himself out of a 6 foot hole of crap…he preached…”the church in Corinth had lots of problems…NOOOO not you (as he pointed his finger and swept the audience) the church in Corinth quarreled..Noooooo not you (as he continued to boost up a dying congreagation)..the church in Corinth, (I died laughing on this one) their elders argued Not us. Our elder board hardly wants to go home after a meeting. He could have starred on comidy central. What a crock…..As stated before the elder board is 1..An abusive, neglect ful, SP, a recent young 20 something Sovereign Grace Ministry pastors college grad, and the biggest yes man, (Well the smallest yes man with the biggest bank account).
I shudder to. Quiz, thanks for the answer…
August 4th, 2009 at 10:35 am
I Got Out,
I read this in your comment after I posted mine.
“I’ve gone on the FB pages/blogspot pages of some of the current folks involved in the Charlotte churches. It would appear that the superior mindedness is still alive and well. Hopefully, if Mickey truly has seen the error of SGM ways, he’ll truly humble himself and address it from the pulpit as readily as he and Brent addressed SGM outcasts’ sins from the pulpit so that he can begin to lead his flock on a more truly humble and gracious path. I think if I heard that was happening, I might have a little more confidence in what’s going on.”
Amen Sister…well said. I see the same “superior mindedness” still going on in Mickey’s sheep. A church is like a family…the apples don’t drop far from the tree.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Mickey would do well to read the comments on this post. The cause of his troubles are linked to a common thread running all through these comments.
Sad thing is, he’s heard it all before. Unfortunately, it appears “exposure” in the blogosphere is the only thing that has ever prompted his attention. Thus the reason for my skepticism of his “change.”
August 4th, 2009 at 11:33 am
SGMers interested in the Reformation would do well to read this blogger’s account of how the original Reformer handled his dispute with leadership. Would that Reformer be able to gain, or keep, membership in an SGM church?
http://kl.am/1XoE
August 4th, 2009 at 11:45 am
Fred, thank you for reminding us of the bottom line:
“I am very concerned that they are ‘learning a different way’….This is very different than a change that comes about when the Spirit of God moves in your heart, breaking your heart over your sin and you fall on your face in repentance….This is why I am still very, very concerned that it is whitewashing.
“Has anyone in any of the churches seen and heard even just one pastor standing in front of their congregation with true heartfelt repentance and brokeness over their sin against God and the people?…When we do hear of this, when we do see this and it is genuine, then we can begin to think, maybe things really are different.”
August 4th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Bingo. The false division between clergy/laity has increased. The affirmation of the priesthood of all believers has all but disappeared. We’ve watched as the division becomes more and more distinct, with the clergy elevated and the concept of “every member ministry” ignored. Yet, when the professional clergy model the servant concept, they are esteemed and elevated in the minds and hearts of their followers.
When a wheel or two go off the track, a train wreck is inevitable. Lord, we ask for your strong hand to guide.
August 4th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
The “bottom line” Fred has pointed out and others have agreed on strikes a chord of significant truth. The SGM ‘denomination’ has regressed into so many checklists and intellectual priority and elitism of ‘leaders’—they are experiencing the blindness that legalism brings and the difficulty of experiencing a pierced heart and spirit over their own sin and sins against the Brethren. I pray they will be shaken,sifted and purged so they may indeed have the scales fall from their eyes and their hearts circumcised. Jesus just didn’t mince any words when He addressed the legalistic pharisees: Matt 23:26-28, Amplified..”You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate,so that the outside may be clean also. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,pretenders–hypocrites! for you are like tombs that have been whitewashed,which look beautiful on the outside,but inside are full of dead mens bones and everything impure. Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright,but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.”
……….Perhaps the exposure of their actions will cause a rumble to “tear that wall/tomb down”………..
August 4th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Ironically, Brent write “You can be qualified but later be disqualified. A man of God can backslide. It is sometimes necessary to discipline or remove men from ministry. Once qualified doesn’t mean permanently qualified.” Brent’s quote can be found here. Go to page 4 and scroll down to item 4.
August 4th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Just wanted to share this, especially for all those broken down in spirit, who have been oppressed, and bound up by legalistic rules, PLEASE watch this video!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVloUiTwdO8
Found this whilst blog link clicking today,
I cried.
This guy gets it.
Just TRY to watch this and not have it touch something deep down inside you.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
The Lord is near to the brokenhearted…
August 4th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Ellie…..Thankyou for posting this UTube link —- whoever this pastor is,I can hear the depth of his heart speaking the Life of Gods Word…..I join with you in praying tonight for those who have been opressed and broken down in spirit…may our loving Savior Redeemer lift the chin of His daughters…….to see His affirmation,safety and strengthening love…………
August 5th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I believe when they are truly broken over their error and sin and the harm they have done to others while using the “name of God” as their umbrella, we will all know it. The game playing will be over. The damage control will be over. The smooth talking will be over.
Thanks, Waters, for your comments. I know I could used a little chin-lifting. As I’ve said before, all this new stuff in Charlotte has stirred up hurt in me. But, today I’m believing it is for a purpose and am going to endeavor to go with it and truly allow the Lord to do His work instead of shoving it down just so it can resurface later. I spoke to a wise brother in the Lord yesterday who encouraged me to believe that not only can and will God heal my broken-ness, but He will also use this very experience to encourage those who will most certainly follow. While I mourn for what they will have to walk through, I rejoice in the prize that awaits as they have their eyes opened to what our Father REALLY is.
August 5th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
Yer welcome, IGO…..and I pray that for my family member who is “out”, also…..
Yes, true litmus test—when “game playing, damage control and smooth talking” — double talk, is over and there is spiritual sight to see and brokenness over mauling Gods people.
With the latest stepping down of a pastor (Brent) it appears they are imploding as they are reaping what they have sown-really, thats profound to watch. Praying for deliverance of unGodly mindsets and the beginnings of “walking in the LIght as He is in the Light”…..Remember Saints—He IS the REDEEMER!!
August 6th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Still hopeful that reform continues to gain momentum, I am praying.
In all of this, I am praying that the days of a simple lack of humility in the presence of God and His Word will continue to diminish; in one sentence, that’s what all of this boils down to.
-John
August 6th, 2009 at 10:37 am
PK! So good to “hear” from you! Had been thinking of PD and you ……………..
Yes, we so hope a momentum of awakening will truly happen and increase— there are just so many people in SGM who love the Lord and whom we love and have had years of relationship with — This is what makes a heavy heart — watching so many walk in a fog. A good synopsis you wrote—that there would be true humility in the Presence of God and His Word.********In the Presence of God***********
August 6th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
PK!
August 6th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
I have been reading tonight, catching up on the Brent resignation and comments expressed by you dear ones who have survived. A thought occurred to me, perhaps we could create a deck of cards with pictures of all the SGM leadership, much like the most-wanted Iraqi playing cards created to help our soldiers recognize the most wanted members of Saddam’s government. These brothers are not our enemies, but we could use the deck as a prayer tool. Our deck would include the top 52 SGM leaders that need to be captured and transformed by the love of God. As Saddam was the ace of spades, this would be CJ, and the ace of clubs and hearts, the apostolic team (minus Brent, of course). Anyone want to play?
August 7th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
My recovery from PDI ->SGM took seven years, but seems so long ago. I was finally set free from seven years of suffering (including a diagnosis of PTSD) after a close member of my family finally followed me out. Until then, our family was torn apart.
But it is almost a distant memory. All that remains is a passion to see people freed from “tyranny of the mind” and abuse of every kind.
I live less than 10 miles from my former SGM church. Most people in our area know about “them” and stay away.
Sorry to see that people are still being hurt.
August 8th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
In the book, “Revolution”, the author predicts that pastors around the country will begin loosing their income from churches, as people find other, more meaningful ways to worship and live for the Lord. Since we’ve said here before that SGM leaders have no real job security anymore, I wonder if they will tow the line just to keep their income safe. Imagine having five or six kids, having worked for SGM for years, and not being sure you will have a job next week. To have to make a choice between integrity and keeping food on the table has to be a tough one. I feel for these families, though I would urge them to choose integrity. God will provide!
Jim, if it hadn’t been for you and Carole, and all the bloggers who post here, maybe we wouldn’t be seeing SGM leadership toning down the authority thing. I am encouraged that at least they are being “held accountable” (oh, how I hate those words now). The core leaders came from the Sheperding movement during the seventies. They might have changed some wording, such as turning “discipleship” into “accountability”, but it is still the same ole’ same ole’. That movement was filled at the end with repentant pastors. Perhaps we will see this again. Maybe there is reason to hope.
For anyone who desires to know the history of the Shepherding movement, read the book “Twisted Scriptures”. It has helped me to understand so much. Knowing the history will help us avoid repeating it!
Virtus, I am so glad you have recovered from your experience. We have a very faithful and merciful Father!
August 9th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
I left SGM after returning from a fall in my faith. I was reminded that the only thing that remains is the Lord’s love for many that I thought were friends were only acquaintances.
Looking back at their inability to care for the suffering, I believe some leaders and lay members are suffering more than I ever was yet are clueless to see it. Let’s continue to pray for God to clean house in their attitudes and place humble leaders who care for their members…even the one’s the caused hurt in our own lives.
On a side note I do believe the polity of SGM has caused the tsunami called ‘carelessness’ towards the sheep in the flock
August 10th, 2009 at 1:41 am
Canary-
Thanks for reminding us about the many pastors who did repent….I hope some of my friends in SG repent and return to their first love….
peace-mm
August 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Speaking of first love…do you all remember this song? I wonder why we don’t sing it anymore in corporate worship?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGWHFPsAtn4
August 13th, 2009 at 12:32 am
I love that song. Just took a break from everything and just worshipped! thanks for posting!
August 13th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Does anyone else find it interesting that there is no pastor listed for Grace Community Church on the SGM website but that Brent is still listed as the Sr. Pastor on the GCC website?
August 13th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Please fotget my last post. I should have looked around the GCC site more. Apparently the last update was near 5/31 (that’s the last Sunday message posted). Question withdrawn.
August 13th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
So many positives in SGM and yet so many negatives. I think the polity has led to many deceived leaders. I still miss our SG church that we left recently but I believe it will implode with time because of the leadership. Most in the congregation who are not on the “inside” think it is the “perfect” church. Deception, control, and no accountability seem to be problems in SGM. Very sad if you ask me as it had the potential to be an awesome “denomination.”
August 14th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I agree, The Question. And welcome.
August 15th, 2009 at 10:09 am
It’s nowhere close to being over yet. An eight page slander manifesto, previously written by an “elder” in GCC in March or May, and totally trashing the family that has been involved in this whole deal by being one of the few to confront Brent, was re-sent recently to the family and who knows who else. The original author was very apologetic and says they were under the imperious curse when they originally wrote the email and has no idea who resent it. I think it’s an angry stepford wife whose world has been destroyed and is now trying desperately to keep us from finding Brent’s Horcruxes.
Okay, at first I was dropping gratuitous Harry Potter references for all my friends back in Crossway who were so angry with me for letting my kids read the book… But now as I am thinking about it, I feel a comparative essay coming on. The Death Eaters are waiting for Voldemort’s return… I’m just waiting for the Dark Mark to appear in the Charlotte sky…
August 15th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Jiggler, welcome!
You said:
“An eight page slander manifesto, previously written by an “elder” in GCC in March or May….” Since the pastors of SGM are the elders, are we to assume this original letter was written by a GCC pastor?
August 15th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I used the term “elder” in quotes becuase there are some men, in some sort of leadership roles at GCC, that are not pastors. I am not sure what the exact leadership structure is/was. Care Group Leader? Leader on the Church Plant Team? Death Eater? When Brent stepped down, RM stepped up. What exactly he stepped up to and where he stepped up from, I do not know, because I am not there, praise God, Hallelujah!
The letter was not written by a called, confirmed and consecrated pastor, but by someone in some sort of lay leadership role.
I am sure that someone who has recevied an actual copy of the letter has read this thread. If you are so inclined, please post.
August 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am
In SG, pastors = elders, and CG leaders =deacons
August 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Wow, I can only imagine the mess with the GCC/CrossWay bunch!!!
Many of them are EXCELLENT at “fingerpointing and scapegoating”…cloaked with “concern and humility”, of course. It ought to be interesting.
Good luck discerning the truth. I’ll be praying for them all…just as I’ve been doing for years.
August 15th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Welcome, Jiggler! I appreciate your Harry Potter references–I faced quite a bit of censure for allowing HP into my home. Interestingly, more and more folks from our old CLC circle are letting their kids read/watch now.
August 15th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I’d love to see the letter. I’m very interested in how the roadkill in the Grace situation have been treated.
In other words, how thorough has the actual repentance been. I’m told that Brent did not completely agree with the assessment. That’s understandable. But the assessors came to a conclusion that led to Brent’s resignation. Have they contacted the roadkill and repented?
August 15th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
What everyone needs to understand is that within SGM, if you are not a pastor, an apostle or up there with Cj, Jeff Purswell, Dave Harvey, etc. you are not a leader and you have no authority or power. Care Group “leaders” are leaders in name only. They may “lead” meetings in their homes and “lead” discussions but they are not leaders who hold any authority in the church and have no decision making powers.
Many in these churches think that the care group leaders are elders but they absolutely are not. They are men who open their homes for meetings twice a month. Care group leaders are men handpicked by the pastors. Certainly a man cannot volunteer to lead a group. They must be asked by a pastor. I used to think that these men were chosen because of their walk with God and their godly character. I now question my previous assumption based on what I have learned and experienced. I believe that many are chosen based on their loyalty to the pastors and their willingness to submit to their authority. Of course this depends on the pastor doing the choosing. I must add that there are care group leaders who do an excellent job of caring for the sheeple and watching over them, men who are godly and walking closely with God. Sadly I have seen excellent care group leaders with thriving care groups removed by the pastors for questioning the pastors or for absolutely no reason at all.
We do know that the pastors use others in the congregation to do their bidding as in the case in Chesapeake where the 3 men on the financial team sent out an email to the entire church memebership about the 3 couples.
August 15th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Fred,
As an ex cgl, I can say that you are exactly right.
August 15th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Jiggler…interesting.
I know the family well that had the courage of conviction to stand up in the face of HUGE opposition. And I’m not really the least bit surprised that RM is now in some sort of leadership role. Although, in the past, he and another “loyal” Brent follower, JS, seemed to hang on every word and every principle Brent spewed, I always sensed there was a bit of a vulture lurking just beneath the surface.
My prayers are still with this family of ex-GCCers who stood up for the truth. I’m sure they are getting it from both sides now. Sure wouldn’t want to be in their shoes.
August 15th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
ACME – What’s even funnier is how many people at Crossway would come to my wife or I on the side (under the cover of night) to ask us what we thought of Harry. We would use it as metaphor material in care group and they would come later and either confess that they had let their teenager read them or ask us if we thought they were ok. Don’t even get me started on the Matrix. (Now that will give my secret identity away!)
Jim – I actually thought things were looking up for the roadkill. Of course when you’re roadkill is there other way to look? At any rate, just for clarifications sake, whoever wrote the letter, wrote it before when they were enthralled with BD and intent on silencing all opposition. When things finally seemed to be settling down, it was re-released. The original author, from what I know, is repentant and and has reached out to the family in question to let them know how sorry they are that its out again. I’d like to get some one on one time with whoever sent it out again.
Speaking of the roadkill family, I’d just like to say how honored I am to know them. If I see God at work anywhere in all of this (sometimes, I confess, I don’t), it is in the fact that He chose this family to use in the way that He did to suit His purposes. If it was me, I would have gone nuclear and burnt the whole thing to the ground. I guess that’s why He didn’t use me. But this family is good people, in every sense of the word and they have stayed and worked for the greater good in the face of overwhelming opposition long after I would have started slugging people. I smile when I think of the dad and how his children look up to him.
I’m also interested in how other families at CCC have reengaged with the roadkill family now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag. There were a number who had known this family for a long time, who sided with the church and essentially shunned them. That was one of the hardest things for me to watch. Given how well they are taught regarding repentance one would think they would be lining up to make things right. Again, I see God’s hand at work because the roadkill family has been incredibly gracious where I would have been an ass.
I Got Out – I am sure we probably know one another. We were at CCC for eight years and left last year. Like you, we got out and have been so much the better for it. To think that I almost crushed (allowed others to crush) the greatest evidence of God’s grace in my life, my wife. Brings tears to my eyes.
(Does anyone else cringe at hearing the phrase “evidence of grace”? What a tragedy.)
August 15th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Was this letter sent out via email or actually like…mail?
If it was sent out via email…hmmm…
August 16th, 2009 at 2:26 am
Jiggler….
I must say, it would be far better for you to have one on one time with the person who forwarded the above referenced letter to all those people. At this moment, the female part of the “road kill’s” dad is ready to cream them all.
I am very proud of them. They are walking in HIS grace and extending that same grace and MERCY to whoever sent it. Yes, they have been hurt again, but they are rising from the ashes with the same integrity that they have held on to for the past year in all of this.
As a mom, saved or not, you want to protect your chicks and take the pressure off. But they have seen it, tho oh so painful at times, as a way for HIM to draw them closer to HIM. As she told us today, we see HIM being victorious in all this, through their silence, HIS voice is being heard and truth is being revealed. They are being reached out to by some that had shunned them; seeking forgiveness, and supported by others who are standing up for them.
They let HIM fight this battle. They stood wounded on the battlefield, never raised a hand in retaliation and HE has proved them to be worthy of HIS protection.
I keep reminding myself that I need to pray for all of the opposition involved in all this. My children have been wounded, yet HE is binding their wounds. The others involved are lashing out, in their own power, surely to suffer from their own devices. I am reminded of the scripture in I Peter 2:23 telling us “when He was reviled, reviled not, neither was there guile found in HIS mouth, but committed HIMSELF to the one that HE knew would judge righteously” I have watched from the sidelines my precious family live that scripture. What an example for me to follow.
Please pray for them and the children. It seems that just as healing was starting, the enemy lashed out again knowing he was losing the battle. They are HIS, HE is watching over them and carrying them through this, yet they are still human and they need all the love and support they can get….
MiMi (Roadkill’s mom)
August 16th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Mimi,
You have raised your child(ren) well. Well done, dear saint! (It’s God’s grace – I know – and you’re way to humble to take alot of credit.)
God is faithful. He will reveal the truth in all this and use it for His glory.
If folks aren’t familiar with the “culture” that has been groomed at CrossWay, they have no idea how hard this is for the “roadkill family.” I know it’s hard for someone to “speak up” in any SGM church, but it’s PARTICULARLY hard within the CrossWay/GCC culture.
It’s truly a “the emperor has no clothes” event!!!
I can only imagine what your dear family is going through. I have seen the AWFUL repercussions and shunning that the few who have DARED to do so have gone through.
Please let them know I am praying for them.
- Kindred
August 16th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Dear Mimi,
I will be praying…praying… for you and your family.
May our Savior be truly glorified and show Himself profoundly to your family members.
PS 24:8-10**Who is the King of Glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up,O ancient doors,
That the King of Glory may come in!
Who is the King of Glory?
The Lord of hosts,
He IS the King of Glory.
Praising God that the King of Glory is in your midst and He is mighty in battle on your behalf. That your family members will know His healing restorative redemptive care as they walk in the Light as He is in the Light. That Truth will shatter the darkness of deceit. That the Father of mercies and God of all comfort (IICor 1:3)
will envelop you all.
August 16th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Mimi,
Here is another helpful prayer I prayed (over an over and over) from Psalm 43…simply “Vindicate me , O God..” Please pass it on to your family.
It took years, but I was vindicated and my entire family set free from the stronghold.
I do not know you, and it has been 13 years since I left “PDI” (at the time). I had a lot of time to figure out what works and doesn’t in the recovery process, and I was deliberate, prayerful and studious in the process.
It sounds like this family has spoken the truth in a place were the lie gives a lot of people a false sense of security. Therefore, they are a threat and are being dealt with the way all human beings deal with threats. They move to destroy them.
What ultimately worked for me, after a long while of trying to not sever myself completely, was to get professional help–there are counselors who understand the damage that this ministry inflicts and have likely counseled others from SGM, PDI before. Most of the couselors I interviewed were aware and had experience with PDI/SGM. It is very helpful to have someone impartial affirm the truth when so many people are telling you that you are the one who is wrong.
Severing myself completely (which wasn’t possible until my sibling left the “movement”) was the most wonderful blessing. I eventually unlearned their very rigid way of thinking and seeing the world. I have never been more free. And my relationship with God has never been more real.
Another really helpful thing I did during the worst time was educate myself. I read a lot. Learn about cults and how they control their people. The common psychological “side-effects” that people go through when they leave cults and controlling groups. Some of it was fascinating, even though it was painful.
Hold the phone, you say, SGM is not a cult. Well, technically, I would agree, however, based on the widespread spiritual and emotional damage and the similarities people experience to those leaving cults, the difficulty they have reconnecting with the world and functioning on the outside, the control and damage control tactics that the organization employ, there are real reasons for treating one’s recovery as similar. Understanding the cult phenomenon helped me break free from the stronghold that was over me.
August 16th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Jiggler,
Regarding your statement: To think that I almost crushed (allowed others to crush) the greatest evidence of God’s grace in my life, my wife. Brings tears to my eyes.
A little fuller explanation please?
Thanks.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
An answer to The Question’s question.
The things my wife suffered have been covered ad nauseum on this board and others so I won’t go into all the gory details. Suffice it to say that a) she works part time b) she doesn’t feel called to home school c) she and I have more of a complementarian view of the roles of husband and wife and d) she’s smokin’ hot.
Okay, d has nothing to do with anything, I just put it in there for me.
Anywho, you can see how a, b, and c put her on the outside looking in most of the time. Most people were gracious most of the time but there was this constant, low grade pressure to conform. A sort of insistent insinuation that if she would just get with the program at some point some magic switch would flick and everything would be puppy dogs and rainbows. Along with that came the idea that somehow she was not as good a mother or wife as the other Stepford women because she just didn’t get it.
To my shame, I thought this way for a while. As a man there was somehting initially attractive about having my wife defer to my every whim, orient the home to my preferences, and teach my children at home to perfect little geniuses.
Anyway as I said, you all have heard this before and know what I am talking about.
At some point I looked around me and was struck by the amount of weirdo illnesses that a majority of the women seemed to be suffering. Everybody seemed to have a problem with their thyroid or allergies or something. Now I’m not a doctor and I don’t play one on tv but the idea came to me somewhere along the way that maybe some of these women were under such stress their bodies were reacting to it (or spiritual attack, I’ll let the holier ones among us decide).
We also noticed this among the children. Working for years with a particular age group of younger children (I wasn’t called to care group leadership but I’m tons of fun with little kids), we’d noticed that parents seemed keen to claim for all sorts of weird allergies for their kids. Or they would tell us that they think they have some sort of mild low grade autism and that they needed special care and instruction. We’d just treat them like everybody else and they’d do fine.
Got to wrap up and run. I didn’t mean to write so much. I don’t mean to say that there are not women with legitimate health issues or children as well for that matter. Again I am not a doctor. I do however, strongly believe that there is some connection between the pressure to join the Borg and the amount of weird physical issues in SGM churches.
In the end, I realized it was crushing my wife and we got out. The change in her over the past months has been incredible.
August 16th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Jiggler,
That was so sweet…good for you!!!
I’m quite sure your wife would want everyone to know that you’ve ALWAYS been a great husband and dad, even when you went through a phase where you were taking occasional drinks of the “koolaid.”
August 16th, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Jiggler,
You are not alone in noticing the illnesses. My sister and I noticed that at CLC, there were a lot of women with fibromaiagia and chronic fatigue syndrome. I remember the conversation we had and our wondering the same thing–if it was really the stress on these women.
And with regard to children…the thinking then was more or less that you had to “break their will.” I remember looking at my beautiful first-born daughter, with just the right amount of spunk, and then looking at my friends’ children, who had a sort-of listless look in their eyes, and saying to myself “I’m not doing that to my beautiful child.” I just kept my little child-rearing “rebellion” to myself.
August 17th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Jiggler,
Thanks for your answer. Very interesting and helpful.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
So, I’ve been sent the letter referenced by Jiggler by multiple sources, none of whom are the people trashed in the letter.
I’m not familiar with the HP references, but I hope Jiggler was saying that the original author fully repented to those he completely trashed. Aside from the character assassination, it is a basically a letter to “Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson and the Leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries” written on March 24. The author is none other than Eric K, basically taking SGM to task for believing such disreputable people over the word of Brent, and for not supporting the church plant.
The person who is now sending the letter around added their own note at the beginning:
“We have friends who passed this onto us. It is confusing and alarming but we thought the people at Grace should see it too. We don’t know what God is doing in Brent’s life but we are grateful for the impact he’s had on us. Though it doesn’t make sense, we were told Ray or Eric Kircher tried to deceptively force Brent’s immediately resignation in June. We are praying for Sovereign Grace, Grace and the Detwiler family.”
Charming…
I have no idea who is now sending this around, but it’s certainly odd. The forward contradicts the original letter, which is in total defense of Brent.
Eric stands up to national SGM leadership at the end of March then “tried to deceptively force Brent’s immediately resignation in June.” ???
I have no idea. I do believe the multiple sources who have told me that what Eric had to say about a couple and a single lady are untrue.
Definitely an odd can of worms in NC.
Does anyone know if Eric turned on Brent in the end? I was told that SGM Inc got involved in Brent’s evaluation at the request of “the local leadership.”
I’d request that no one post the letter here, and I won’t be passing it forward, as the good people maligned in this missive have endured enough.
August 17th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
It is amazing to me how people, who on the one hand are so well taught regarding the evils of blogs and would never condescend to read or contribute to one, will turn around and send tripe via email with an anonymous comment. I realize I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but it seems to me like that is pretty much the same thing.
It is an odd can of worms here in NC.
Make no mistake about it, the man maligned in the missive is the reason SGM inc got involved. Rather than shrink in the face of all that is Brent, he kept after the leadership, refusing to go away and demanding that they hold their own to the same standard that they had used for years on everybody else.
Does anyone think for a second if the evidence against Brett wasn’t overwhelmingly sound, complete and true, that he would be gone?
August 17th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Jiggler,
The blogs are evil. We say bad things about people who aren’t used to it. Very baaad…
It’s much better to send a private letter to SGM Inc which is full of lies about good people doing good things. If the letter goes public, you can always say I’m sorry.
Clarification needed. Eric said “I’m sorry”. Was this before, or after the letter went public?
The answer will obviously speak volumes about his character.
August 17th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
My understanding is that he apologized after it was resent, recently. I do not know if he ever sought out the maligned, under some sort of conviction, prior to the email being made public.
I wonder how aware MC and the leadership of CCC are of these recent developments and whether or not they are going to step in and do anything. It is an opportunity to show how things have changed. It’s also a great opportunity to stick your head back in the sand.
August 18th, 2009 at 1:09 am
From my vantage point, as of yesterday…I see a bunch of tushes in the air, no heads in sight, they are too deep in the sand dunes……
August 18th, 2009 at 8:51 am
Jim,
Eric K was a part time paid staff member at GCC. (He resigned his position I beleive end of May.) He later sent another letter to SGM stating that he was “too close” to Brent to see all the things that Brent was being “accused” of. In my opinion Eric is part of the leadership and therefore part of the problem. Brent, although guilty of most of the accusations brought against him is NOT the only problem at GCC.
There are several “spiritual” elites at Grace, and everyone else just doesn’t matter.
August 18th, 2009 at 10:39 am
MTE,
The operative word in your post is “SPIRITUAL”. It seems, to me, the two words spiritual and holy cannot and do not dwell together. Just because someone is “spiritual” does not mean that biblical holiness is part of their life.
I must say also that the phrase “guilty of most” is an indictment against the “roadkill” couple. Unless we were all privy to the conversations, meetings and emails between Brent and them, we cannot and should not form an opinion of how much is true or not. Men, when desperate and needing to be in control, can be”masters of the spoken word” twisting anything to make themselves look good or as the victim. Eric’s letter was based on conversations with “leadership” & forwarded to SGM leadership on such.
Remember that Eric forwarded the letter against the couple based on accusations and conversations with “leadership”. He did not go to the couple to see if any of the accusations against them were true. Even after receiving the letter against the couple, those investigating found truth in the couple’s testimoney. It was Brent’s own “leadership team” that asked for investigation of issues concerning him that brought the evaluation team…’out of the mouths of two or more, a thing shall be confiirmed’.
NO one is perfect on this earth, but one’s actions and motives show the depth of purity of their hearts. How was all this brought to light; in the public eye? Was it by the “roadkill” couple who sat quitely by and let HIM run the show? Or by the “those who felt that they had to be in control to make sure things worked out properly? The person who wrote the letter originally, recanted later after the character assasination had taken place. When we trust HIM, we allow HIM to reveal truth. We do not seekout others to plead our case based on erronious information.
I am reminded of the old shakespearian quote, “me thinketh he doeth protesteth too much”, indicating that the one/ones making the most noise is/are trying to protect/defend his actions and throw the blame elsewhere. They make the loudest noise trying to get others to look the other way. Who in all this “stood still to see the salvation of the LORD”. Who though wonded by man, stood and acted in the integrity of the Lord. Who will have the sweet fragrance of the Holy Spirit come to them in the needist moment? Those that stand quietly by letting HIM take control.
Who is protesting here? The “roadkill couple” or the “spiritual” leadership and elites? Those making the most noise many times are the guiltiest. If we know we are innocent, we can trust HIM to be our defender. If we are guilty, we know we are in the fight alone, and do all we can to defend ourselves ALONE.
To be holy rather than spiritial, we need to pray for all involved in the travesty against the couple. HIS word tells us to ‘pray for those that spitefully use us’. We cannot allow ourselves to become as shallow and hard hearted as those on the attack.
MiMi
August 18th, 2009 at 11:21 am
Thanks for your post MiMi,
I know first hand that several things Brent has been accused are simply not true. We spoke up and told the leadrship team that as well and WERE NOT listened to. ( A lot played out in front of our eyes) The same leadership that invited the SGM team for evaluation and recommendations are guilty of the same pride and untreatability that they accused Brent of. Especially one couple that has been very close to Brent from the very beginning. They have lied and hurt so many people in the church and take absolutely no responsibility for their actions.
August 18th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
MTE,
I know what you are saying is true….Taking responsibility for our actions is paramount to true holiness and repentance is necessary. All I am saying is that the “roadkill” couple are being blamed for all of it. They have sat back and let the situation play out. You undoubtedly were included in the evaluation process. I am sorry you were not listened to. This only proves the power that “men” hold that should be given to the Holy Spirit. There is no way everyone could know the complete truth, yet the couple is being blamed for it all.
I still hold to the old “gossip” game. Tell one person something and by the time it gets to #10….completely different story. Unless we were involved in ALL conversations, read ALL emails, attended ALL meetings, we can not know positively for a fact complete truth….even then people hear/assume differently in conversations.
My concern is for the couple, cariing the blame and brunt for the problems at Grace. Why are they “completely in the wrong”…. The evaluation and removal of Brent was based on the request and information from the “leadership team” there. NO one except our JESUS will ever be right 100% of the time. Yet they have been judged to be completely wrong because a man is “thought too highly of.”
We must keep our eyes on HIM..not him…the recirculating of the letter says little for the biblical principles that should be in place in this situation. This is what grieves my heart the most…..what have these people been taught? I believe at this moment, Jesus is healing the “ear” of this couple that this letter/sword of Peter has sliced off. Who was it Jesus reached out to??? The wounded…..Peter was rebuked.
As stated before, I pray for Brent, and encourage all to. He too is child of God, loved and cherished by HIM just as we are.
MiMI
August 18th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Yes, I am “RoadKill”. This has been a rough year to say the least and we have been through much. This post make us sound like we were responsable for Brent stepping down, the SGM leadership team getting involved, and we are the heroes. Well we are not, we only shared in a small part of the colossal mess here in Mooresville. I would ask that if anyone from GCC or CCC have any questions or concerns for us to please call me or contact me directly. I believe those who would need to contact me would already have my info.
Road Kill
August 18th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Is there anyway that you kind folks from NC can explain to us/give us a history of what is going on? It might be helpful for the sheeple to know the facts. We are a little confused concerning Brent. Thank you so much.
August 18th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Ok, I’m not from NC but I want Roadkill to know I love them all!!!! I’m proud of what my family is. Jesus Loves Roadkill!!!!! And to be honest I don’t think Jesus would be going to any church he would just love us and want us to love Him. We are the church people. We need each other. I’m so sorry for all the pain that we cause one another. I’m so thankful that the Lord loves us stupid sheep.
August 18th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Sister-in-law.
You are so right. It must grieve HIM so to see HIS church being so petty in all this. Anyone who wants to know more should take Roadkill up on his offer if youare interested in how this situation came about. I don’t doubt that there may be untrue accusations toward Brent…BUT that doesn’t mean they came from Roadkill…..why not give Roadkill the same grace you are extending to others and talk to him?
MiMi
August 18th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Well I, for one, want credit for making the moniker roadkill a reality. True, Jim may have used the term first, but I gave it life. I saw what others did not, a tiny seed of potential. I nurtured it, planted it, watered it, tended it in this little garden.
Years from now, when the name roadkill is known far and wide, when the mere use of the name strikes fear in the hearts of would be oppressors, you all will smile, tip your hat to the Jiggler, and whisper softly “he made it all happen.”
(Roadkill tell your wife I’m sorry she’s been immortalized as Mrs. Roadkill. You know I love you both more than my luggage.)
\m/ >.< \m/
August 18th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Jiggler,
I am indebted to you for life. You have given my children and my children’s children a legacy to truly be proud of…they are ROADKILL….. what greater honor could one hope for….especially knowing that it represents dying for the work of the Kingdom…
How blessed I am to be the mother of such wonderful “creatures”. From this day forward, should anyone ask, I shall respond…”JIGGLER DID IT”..You will be given the admiration due such an incredible moniker maker.
MiMi
August 19th, 2009 at 2:38 am
Ellie <——–sitting quietly in the corner and giggling while enjoying the pleasant fellowship of Jiggler & company
August 19th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Well Jig, what I used as a broad term has now been applied to one couple.
Thanks. There goes my new blog name, SGM Roadkill, and the t shirt line…
August 19th, 2009 at 7:37 am
… and the theme song (think late 70’s Ted Nugent), the CD sales, the Roadkill Tour, etc…
August 19th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Ew..Ew..Ew..can I go…???? on tour???
I promise, I will be the best “roadie” ever…got lots of experience (sixties & seventies). I promise Jigger, I will be awesome..I will sell shirts…bumper stickers, etc…
We do need to cash Jim in on the royalties….After all, without this site, you would probably have never been catapulted into such fame….THE MONIKER MAKER. Can’t ya hear the screams already!!!!!!
August 19th, 2009 at 10:51 am
BTW, Jiggler also created this blog, and writes most of my posts for me…
August 19th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Jim – The jiggler feels you are being to modest. The jiggler did create this blog but only writes a little over 42% of your posts for you, which while substantial, cannot by any standard of measurement, be considered most.
With regards to theme songs the jiggler is totally tracking with you. Matter of fact the jiggler thinks that Nugent’s Stranglehold could be re-worked in to a most appropriate commentary on the powers that be within some large church planting and oversight organizations.
The jiggler would also like to say that as of this post his street cred has risen to the level where he feels more comfortable refering to himself in the third person.
Finally the jiggler would like to reveal that he has had several people, who evidently read this blog but do not post, contact him directly and identify him as the jiggler. Oddly enough it seems to be the comment about his smokin’ hot wife which gave him away.
The jiggler mentions this for two reasons. One the jiggler is amazed at who is actually reading this. Two, the jiggler wanted another opportunity to mention his smokin’ hot wife. Which is and of itself not a commentary on anyone else’s wife. The jiggler would hope that all men think their wives are smokin’ hot. It is however a commentary on God’s grace becuase if any of you were to encounter the jiggler in real life you would be forced to agree that despite his many short-comings, God has been most generous with him. The jiggler refuses to add any sort of “beauty on the inside” caveat because although his wife does posess an inner beauty of a galactic magnitude, it is her smokin’ hotness that he is currently fixated upon.
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
August 19th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
I agree. I spoke to a friend from the Chesapeake church and she had no idea. Anyone remember Larry Tomczak (sp?). When stuff was happening there, they told all the churches. I mean…he’s a big dog, been with SGM from PDI days and even before I think. I had no idea and alot of people don’t even know he “stepped down” or whatever happened. I pray that church moves into recovery and truth mode. This is not to imply anything except, we all miss truth sometimes when it is staring us in the face (I did for years), and I hope and pray this church is allowed to know the truth at the very least of all that has happened with their own body and “pastor”.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Jiggler,
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Thanks, I needed that.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:11 am
Could anyone shed some light on exactly what Brent was accused / convicted of — in measureable, documentable terms, such as “he robbed a bank” ?
Although Brett resigned, if this resignation is the result of another kangaroo court over hearsay and vague descriptions of non-measureable subjective issues, it’s just too sad that the vague subjectivity that has devastated so many people continues to be perpetuated.
How do you measure an unteachable spirit? ‘Cause all of us are unteachable to some degree. When does it become a criminal offense? How do you measure pride, arrogance, etc? You can’t. How much pride does it take to point out somebody else’s pride?
I hope never to hear of another person being accused, defamed, demoted, or excommunicated because somebody with more power has estimated their measure of pride/unteachability and found it to be over some arbitrary line.
I worry about the young men following in the footsteps of those who’ve allowed such spiritual abuse to occur. Lord, I ask your blessings and protection on those who are on paths to leadership, in Jesus’ name, Amen.
August 21st, 2009 at 9:15 am
Amen, Square Peg.
I was at/leaving CLC at the time that they did the same thing to Larry Tomczak. I thought it was odd, but because everyone spoke in “code” I didn’t understand what was really going on. I wonder if anyone did. I was also naive. Running a man out of his own ministry. Shame, shame. Still doing this after all these years.
One day I’ll tell my story here. I know what it is like to be accused of something that you can’t defend yourself against.
August 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am
Virtus,
If you have been accused of something you did not do, then you know how this feels – (FOR THE OTHER PARTIES). Many times when men are “thought too highly of”, an opinion of them making no mistakes many times develops,and others (you apparently) feel that they can do no wrong. Well they can do wrong, and their offenses need to be dealt with. Just because someone is in “leadership” does not make them immune to doing wrong.
What is happening here is that someone like you, hurt like you, seeing others hurt took a stand and refused to go away. Why is it hard for “people” to believe that as the word says “HE CHASTENS THOSE HE LOVES”?. Well, HE is loving Brent through this, so hopefully he can continue in the work of the LORD.
Square Peg, -I hope never to hear of another person being accused, defamed, demoted, or excommunicated because somebody with more power has estimated their measure of pride/unteachability and found it to be over some arbitrary line.
This is no arbitrary line…and the power demonstrated here is not against Brent. This “power” you speak of was demonstrated against someone else due to the pastoral position. Surely you can extend grace here to ALL, not knowing as you readily admit, the actual situations and circumstances.
“out of the mouths of two or more, a thing shall be confirmed”…this is not the first time abuse of power has taken place by a man in leadership. HE wants HIS church and people to thrive and be blessed ON BOTH SIDES OF THE PULPIT. What kind of loving FATHER would HE be, if HE did not require righteousness and holiness from all of HIS children.
If we believe that HE is sovereign, then we must trust that HE wants to see Brent whole and restored, operating in the gifts HE gave him, and not drowning in the worship and adoration men have given him. Perhaps all this is due to “men looking to man rather than to G-D..We do serve a jealous G-D, and if HE sees that men esteem another man over HIM, allowing that adoration to promote sin within the ministry, He will put an end to that the ministry – until healing and restoration comes.
I pray for all involved……
August 21st, 2009 at 10:22 am
Let me be clear. I have no idea what public reasons were given for asking Brent to resign.
The fact remains that this man is legendary in his abuse of pastoral authority. What he did at Grace clearly disqualified him.
August 21st, 2009 at 11:41 am
Mimi,
Um, apparently there has been a misunderstanding–I never said these people in leadership could do no wrong. After leaving and studying cult phenomenon (as I’ve mentioned), what I concluded is that this incident is what happens when a controller is met with a younger, stronger controller and gets deposed. I was commenting about the evil and irony that the unmeasurable accusations tactic was used by some controllers to push out another–oddly, the one who started the ministry. Over-shepherding is wrong. Spiritual abuse is wrong. The thing was warped all around.
CLC was a huge church and I was a nobody, privy to no insider information when that was going on. It does seem to be the way the leadership operates when they want someone out– gang up. Not saying that the one being forced out has nothing to repent of. He could not have risen to the level he did without towing the line, at least until he fell out of favor.
I know how hard this is for you and your family. All of the politics, smearing, backbiting, controlling–sounds like the Sorority from Hell.
I’ll pray for this family–my suggestion from experience is this…don’t try to save the world. Get out, get some distance, get perspective, get healed and strong, then see if God wants you to involve yourself from the outside assist in ending the abuse. Just a suggestion.
I know you might be walking away from friends, even everything you know. It is worth it (telling you from experience) to truly live in the freedom that Christ bought for you with his blood. Not controlled by other men. Not addicted to religion. (Yes, you can be addicted to religion, I was to a degree.)
August 21st, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Virtus,
Thank you for your kind words.. And, please forgive me if my response was offensive. I so want this situation to be righted for ALL involved. As said here before, we as men, cannot determine the ending of the gifting of man from GOD. I believe that only the man involved can end that ministry by his own actions.
I do not wish that for Brent, or anyone else. I desire that hearts be mended, restored, and used as HE ordained them to be used…That HE may be glorified in all of this.
We (hubby & I) learned years ago to keep our eyes on HIM and not man through an experience involving a leadership (not SGM). Thankfully the foundation of our salvation was such that we learned this concept early on and came out of the situation unscathed and have compassion for all involved in these types of situations…..Thank you for your input…for praying…and supporting ALL involved…..HE wants HIS church to be united in love..
August 21st, 2009 at 1:13 pm
This just in.
The jiggler has received some startling information on Jim’s true identity. He is in fact none other than NASCAR driver Jeff Burton.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/wrkncrew/jeff-burton.jpg[/IMG]
While the jiggler is not qualified to speculate on how this information should be dealt with and what impact it will have, he is compelled by his oath, sworn on Mt. Hibachi, to bring it to your attention.
August 21st, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Virtus – I know you might be walking away from friends, even everything you know. It is worth it (telling you from experience) to truly live in the freedom
CORRECT!!! TOTALL TRUE!!!! It is VERY hard, but when you leave, you find out who your real friends are! You wonder why your friends are avoiding you and in the end, you realize it is because of one of two reasons: 1) they were not true friends 2) they are going along with the shunning program
August 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Virtus, MiMi, Freedom-a big amen.
Jiggler- Not even close. Please refrain from using my name and NASCAR in the same paragraph, even though I live an hour from Daytona.
I’m a Porsche guy (although my midlife crisis car is a 1995 Miata-sad/true/fun!)
I’ll take you for a ride sometime. Bring your Depends…
August 21st, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Mimi -
“ Surely you can extend grace here to ALL, not knowing as you readily admit, the actual situations and circumstances.”
Absolutely. I trust that whatever charges were brought were documented, measureable things, as opposed to the vague, indefensible charges brought in the past by spiritual abusers against their sheep. I struggle personally with “love keeps no record of wrongs” against “maybe I should take a few minutes and write down the offenses for future reference should they be needed.” I don’t want to dwell on or re-live the situations I observed or experienced, but I want to be reasonable that they DID happen. I’m part of what someone recently called a “normal” church now, and it’s great to be able to trust that yes, I may be offended from the pulpit, or by something said or done, but I will most likely NOT be personally attacked for not measuring up to something that is not measureable.
I guess the language in this blog needs to remain understandably vague at times, and I don’t want to be voyeuristic about things that go on behind someone else’s closed doors. It’s difficult for me to write succinctly without revealing my identity, but please, should I comment in the future, know that I wish to extend grace in every circumstance. How many times have I heard “The church is the only army who shoots its own wounded.” I’ve been shot, and I don’t want to shoot back.
We serve a gracious God. Take heart!
Grace to all!
August 21st, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Square Peg,
1 Tim 5:19-20 is a Biblical command. We obviously should extend grace while following that command, but it must be obeyed. It has been ignored far too many times, with either vague “sin categories” named, which you perfectly described “as vague descriptions of non-measureable subjective issues”, or worse yet, men have been allowed to “retire”.
I would think that none of us are as gracious as Paul, yet his command is crystal clear.
Having said all of that, as I said here, I see no point in kicking a brother when he is down.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I just want you all to know that I really appreciate y’all.
What a bunch of *truly* quality people!
.
.
Ellie…in a reflective mood….
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Hi Ellie!
What else is there to do in the heat but stay indoors and reflect? Hope the weather is improving where you are!
Mimi, you seem to have a compassionate heart. I like that you continue to remind us to keep our focus on the Lord, and to pray for sgm. Thank you.
Jim said: The fact remains that this man (Brent) is legendary in his abuse of pastoral authority. What he did at Grace clearly disqualified him.
I don’t know what he did at Grace, but I do know how he was at the Charlotte church. You couldn’t have said this better. He was master and celebrity over the people. I never, never, NEVER thought he would be hoisted by his own petard. NEVER thought he would experience a Larry T. type situation.
Though I am glad to see evidence of people rethinking the pastoral authority stuff to the point of not allowing it to go on in someone like Brent, I feel for him and his family. I do hope he will go through what many of us have, and begin to realize how serious and debilitating it is to loose friends and reputation, to loose entrance into the hollowed grounds of leadership (all those secret meetings now denied him!), how it feels to be betrayed by those you once trusted. Does this sound harsh? I only say it because the experience could lead to his having to rethink his “doctrine”, to hopefully experience God’s refreshing as he learns to turn from the traditions of men to a deep, personal KNOWING of the Living God. Not formula, but faith. Not slavery, but freedom. To see Brent and his family find what many of us have found through our SGM tribulations would be so wonderful. Will it happen? I don’t know. Maybe he will stick around for his “discipline” like B. Phillips did, and end up as assistant pastor in sgmville. After all, his job security and tax-free income are at stake.
But oh, how I hope he gets set free.
A quote from “Twisted Scriptures”: “Note to leaders: You will be much more effective if you allow criticism openly, with no public negative repercussions to those who disagree with you” (pg. 68).
All those years ago, when half our care group tried to tell Brent how alarmed we felt over the direction the church was taking (I know he was told by others, from outside leaders down to “mere women” like myself) he turned a deaf ear. Could he not hear? Would he not hear? What if he had at least entertained some of our ideas, prayed over them?
Should any of us ever be so convinced that our doctrines and understanding of scripture are so perfect that there is little to no room for the thought that we could be in error? Honestly, if a donkey had shown up at his office to speak to him about his pastoral abuse of authority, I don’t think Brent would have heard. Not meant as an insult, just to illustrate how far gone he seemed when it came to hearing criticism from the little people. He could be very charming when listening, but condescending, as well, like he was speaking to children instead of adults.
Then, when we couldn’t conform, there was controlled anger and impatience.
I hope it is all right to speak of my experiences in Charlotte. I truly mean no offense, and honestly carry love for the whole Detweiler family. I feel great compassion for them.
If I might add one more thing (I haven’t blogged for a while and have a lot of chirping to do!): We members of the Body are responsible when we allow ourselves to make celebrities out of our leaders. You know how it is – you daren’t approach the leader because he is surrounded by so many others, but gaze at him from afar, wishing he would take notice of your life. Is he happy with your obedience? Does he see you taking notes during his sermon? Will he deign to speak with you if you go mow his lawn? Oh, if only you could be like the Holy Men.
Our leaders aren’t Michael Jordan’s of the Kingdom of Heaven. Why do we sometimes look at them as though they are? Respect them? Yes, if they earn it. Follow (I should say worship) them as though they can do no wrong? Imitate them to the point of shaving your head and sounding like CJ himself? God forgive us!
There will be some believers seriously effected by Brent’s shanking, because they truly looked at him as a celebrity in SGM. What will happen to them? Will they take a fall, as well? Or will they slip back in through the doors of the Charlotte church and blend in with the rest, trying to forget that they were ever part of the disastrous “unplanting” of the largest and strongest church planting in the history of SGM? I wonder…
August 26th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Jim,
I know we have all been talking about Brent, the way leadership has failed, and doctrine issues, It always seems confusing, especially for a veteran like myself.
With your insight, do you think the answer to all this is due to SGM leadership being a ’guide’, as to provide a blueprint for local churches OR do you think there is a shift where we are spliting into two groups under one ‘reformed’ tent.
Back in the early eighties, I became a part of People of Destiny, as they seem to be the only ‘reformed’ tent around. “Come one, come all”, they would say. But, now it seems they can not ‘fit’ all the different reformed / charasmatic / calvinistic; ideas/thoughts/convictions into one ‘church’. It seems leadership have given up being a group a churches and ’happy’ with being a mere support call center. It seems leadership doesn’t want the responsibility or authoirty to direct local churches. It seems leadership has dissappered altogether. It seems leadership…well, leadership ins’t leadership. It would seem though, that our local pastors are, now, the main authority with oversight given by an elder/caregroup leader, of the same church.
Are CJ and whoever else is in charge dissolving? I know everyone who posts – states there is a power struggle, but to a nobody thats part of a local church, it seems that my local church is all I have. For a long time, forgot I even belong to SGM. I cannot even tell you what men are in Leadership, right now. (I’d guess I could have researched it, but I think it would have been beneficial in being told.) And I have no idea what SGM is about. And maybe that is a good thing. Just for me to focus on my local church. Strive in the mission which is the city I live in and grow with the people God has given me to serve with.
Thoughts?
August 26th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Weapon -
I know just what you mean. I’m always surprised when I check in here at the emphasis on CJ and how important it is to destroy CJ since he apparently = Satan. At my sg church, we rarely talk, think or hear from or about CJ. Seems like we heard a lot more from on high in years past. I wouldn’t be surprised if people who have joined our local body in the past couple of years had never heard of CJ. Like you, I no longer know who comprises the sg leadership team. Nor do I care. I rarely read CJ’s blog and my wife never checks his wife’s blog. Nor do we feel any pressure to do so.
Personally, I’m glad that our local church is pretty autonomous. I think that’s the right way to go. From what I’ve heard this was the reason that the mess in Mooresville took so long to unfold – the oversight team wouldn’t act until the local elders asked them to. Although this no doubt prolonged the agony, I feel that this was the correct call. I’m no scholar, I could be totally wrong.
August 26th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Weapon-thanks for posting. I’m buried right now, but will respond later.
Joel-check in more often. CJ is my brother in Christ. We disagree on some issues. I have no desire to destroy those I disagree with.
August 26th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Joel said, “I’m always surprised when I check in here at the emphasis on CJ and how important it is to destroy CJ since he apparently = Satan.”
Owie, that was hurtful. No one here has ever called CJ “satan”, nor do we wish CJ to be destroyed. I have to defend Jim and Carole here, to say that your comment was unwise. They have stated all along what Jim just repeated in his above post. There is disagreement in polity, and how the saints are being treated under the sgm type government, but neither Jim nor Carole have any heart to destroy anyone!
Jim, Carole, I just felt someone had to defend you against that totally off-base comment. It was probably meant as tongue-in cheek sarcasm, but it was uncalled for. It got me squacking. I and others appreciate all the hard work you put into this blog. Can’t be said enough.
August 26th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
My main point was that the leadership team is certainly less visible in the day-to-day of the church than it has been in the past. Whether this is reality or just my perception, I couldn’t say for sure.
Quoting Charlie from above:
” I do pray, but I wont rest easy until….they gut the local church leadership, all leaders, care group leaders, SR Pastor and young pastors college grad, they shut the doors, CJ resignes, OR AT THE VERY LEAST MY OWN FAMILY gets the heck out of dodge, and sees Sovereign Grace minstries for what it really is. A failing business. ”
Quoting The Quizzler:
“Read this entire thread, from the top, carefully and recognize that what you see described here will also happen to you, eventually. You will all be used and then cast aside when the capricious whims of SGM (CJ) dictate. ”
Quoting No Longer Afraid:
“A thought occurred to me, perhaps we could create a deck of cards with pictures of all the SGM leadership, much like the most-wanted Iraqi playing cards created to help our soldiers recognize the most wanted members of Saddam’s government. These brothers are not our enemies, but we could use the deck as a prayer tool. Our deck would include the top 52 SGM leaders that need to be captured and transformed by the love of God. As Saddam was the ace of spades, this would be CJ, and the ace of clubs and hearts, the apostolic team (minus Brent, of course). Anyone want to play?”
Quoting Friendly Fire from above:
“Yes, all the “apostles” including CJ, Steve, Gene, etc. have known for years who the real Brent was and is, and they obviously covered it up and turned a deaf ear to the many complaints. ”
Quoting Fred from above:
“Once again, I ask you CJ, resign today. ”
Quoting Greener Pastures from above:
”
To All Who Have Suffered Under the Tentacles of Sovereign Grace Ministries: Where in the world did the “5 Wise Men” (CJ, Dave Harvey, Jeff Purswell, Josh Harris, and Pat Ennis) get the authority to make the many decisions they have? Who are they to toy around with the lives of so many and manipulate so much to meet their own needs? Where in the world did they have the authority bestowed upon them to decided who does and does not have the calling to be a pastor? This infuriates me, and very few people say much about it.
How many great men will be stepped on by these men?
How many families will be wounded and stabbed in the back by these men?
It so appears that this is much bigger than anyone knows (since most SGMers live in a self-contained bubble, like, I guess, North Korea, and have little knowledge of what really happend at their sister churches.)
Bravo to CJ and Sovereign Grace Ministries for pulling off one of the greatest schemes in church history!
5 men on the top.
Countless millions of dollars in their hands each year.
A self-contribed method of keeping all around them silent!
What a Hack Job!
Nothing more to say here!”
Me: I guess you’re right. No one said that CJ is Satan.
August 26th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Joel,
Why do you think people are making those comments about C J? Is he running the SGM show? If the families in this “family of churches” are expressing deep hurts at the hands of the SGM leadership, then who is ultimately resposible? He is the head overseer of SGM and will not even address any of the 1000’s of posts filled with hurt, pain, and misery suffered at his “churches”. He has never once, to my knowledge, made one single attempt at a response to the charges of these former members. The Bible only calls for 2 or 3 witnesses. There are 100’s of former members witnesses of hideous abuses at the hands of SGM’s leadership. This is a very dangerous, controlling and manipulative religious organization. C J needs to step down and disban this entire organization. It is unbiblical, antibiblical, controlling, and legalistic and extremely dangerous to the spiritual health and well being of it’s members. I was a member for over 10 years and know this from first hand factual experience.
August 26th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Dennis, have you posted your story anywhere? If so, i would love to read it. Sounds like you know from where you speak.
August 26th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
My purpose was not to comment on the rightness or wrongness of the “CJ is evil and must be destroyed” vibe but merely to point out its existence on this site. Jim has indeed been willing to look on CJ as a brother in Christ and I do acknowledge and appreciate it.
August 26th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Hi GD,
No, I have never posted my story. I was in the church in Port Orange, Fl from about 1985 – 1996. The abuses were numerous and very widespread. There were so many wounded people from spiritual abuses there, that it would take a book to detail it all. I was told to write my complaints to Brent Detwiler, who was the “apostle” appointed to our church. I never heard back from him, only a third party response that said that he did not agree with me. Imagine that!
Many marriages and families were destroyed at that church through the tyranny of the “pastor” who was really big into “church discipline” and tough love. He was always right, he was always in charge, and he was not open to being corrected. He preached humility but never practiced it. Even when proven wrong about his accusations toward my wife, he never said he was sorry nor asked for forgiveness. One former leader there did admit to me about a year ago, that “things could have been handled differently” and that they were still “young” at that time.
I may share some details at some point, I am not sure yet. I am still considering calling this “pastor” to try and get some closure on unresolved hurts from back then.
August 26th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Joel,
C J has never been a brother to me. Technically, he may be a Christian, but the term “brother”, to me, denotes intimacy and friendship. I see C J as more of a dictator and ruler, than a brother.
Jim is much more gracious than I am. I am glad that he can still see C J as a brother in Christ. If C J would ever answer any of my e-mails or come on a blog and answer some tough questions, and address the wounded and bloody SGM sheep, I may feel differently. But he just seems to turn a deaf ear to the cries of the critically injured.
August 26th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Sorry, Joel, but it seems you only have a small piece of the whole picture.
CJ was my pastor for 6 years. Even back then (in the 90’s) I was aware that smaller PDI churches did not feel the conformity pressure or intrusion that we felt at CLC. CLC was the flagship. We had to be the “example” for everyone else.
CLC in those days was a cult of personality that revolved around CJ Mahaney. Everybody imitating the way he spoke, inflection, phrases he used, reading the books he was reading, quoting him, hanging on every word, etc. Two things saved me from joining in (1)The Body by Chuck Colson, which confronted Christians about their limited evangelistic use if they insisted on speaking in “Christian-speak”, and (2) my husband was not a believer so I had to continue to relate to the “outside world.”
That being said, I have a strange inner emotional relationship with CJ Mahaney. I can’t say who he really was back then, but I was greatly influenced by the person he portrayed himself to be. I still conduct my Christian walk according to the positive aspects of that image. I didn’t understand until later that I was also being subjected to authoritarianism and mild(?) mind control. I’m sure CJ and the other leaders didn’t recognize that that was what they were doing. I think CJ sincerely believed that the authoritarian manner in which he structured his ministry was biblical and spiritually beneficial to all.
Denial? Arrogance? Ignorance? Zeal? Charisma? False humility? Controlling? Well-meaning?
I say, probably all of the above. I have a special place in my heart for CJ. He spoke the words that God used to transform my spirit for eternity. His charisma has been used by God to reach many people for Christ. I believe that if his eyes were ever opened to the harm that his lack of formal education and scriptural balance have done, he would be terribly grieved. Good man, flawed man.
August 26th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Dennis,
Thank you so much. I can identify with EVERYTHING you posted. It is so helpful to know that you are NOT crazy and that many others have experienced the same craziness that you did. As for my wife and me, we are totally healed from SGM and are free, completely, and are thankful for our wonderful Father for taking us through the dysfunctional craziness (All things work together for good…) that is too often propagated at SG “churches.”
It took us 3 years before we got deep enough below the “NICENESS and proclaimed HUMILITY” to get a taste of the CRAP from “on high,” you know the always right, God sent, leaders of the “church machine.” Just writing this stirs up my “disgust detectors.” I get so distressed over those who try to defend this stuff with the same old same old, but I also know that they don’t see yet. All of us were there before, so we love you all who defend–we do understand. SGM does provide the need to belong and to be loved and to be part of something, BUT if you sniff enough and ask enough and honestly and objectively seek reality, maybe just maybe you will uncover the stench that will burn your eyes to the point of needing to change the environment. You will resist and try to explain it away at first, but keep looking and keep sniffing. Don’t settle for the “every church has problems and no church is perfect mantra!” Live in real grace for a little while, and you will NEVER return except as a missionary, representing authentic Sovereign Grace.
August 26th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
My wife had much greater wisdom and discernment at that time than I did. She saw the writing on the wall long before I did. I always thought that I deserved the abuse I was getting. Of course the leaders were spiritual and I was a scum bucket. So I needed to be confronted, rebuked, spit upon, etc for my own good. But when they turned on my wife, then I knew something was greatly amiss. She had done nothing to deserve their fury. She was simply guilty by her association with me. They assumed my wife was in agreement with me. But even after they found out this was not the case, there were no apologies, and no asking for her forgiveness.
Soon afterwards, I ended up getting fybromyalgia which kept me house bound for about 4 years. I believe this was the result of the spiritual abuse and the resulting condenmation I felt. I felt like God was mad at me and terribly disssapointed with my lack of submission to their authority.
I could not go to church when I was house bound with the fibromyalgia. What a blessing that turned out to be! And we never went back. It took quite some time for the lights to come on to see where the real problem was. I am so grateful to the Lord for delivering us from that terrible bondage and oppression. It is so good to know the truth and to be set free, and free indeed! Thank God for His grace to be set free from Sovereign Grace Miseries.
August 26th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Joel,
Point taken. I don’t happen to agree with the commenters you quoted, but understand the emotions that are behind their words. Thanks for acknowledging Jim’s position on how he views CJ. Others of us feel the same way, and have no wish to see anyone destroyed. However, I can see how you come to your conclusions.
August 26th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Dennis, have you posted your story anywhere? If so, i would love to read it. Sounds like you know from where you speak.
Hi GD,
His story was posted over on Survivors – this poster has a history on Survivors and Refuge, and was banned last year.
Sigh.
August 27th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Considering SGM’s strong focus on indwelling sin, it’s hard to comprehend that the leadership team (I really don’t like calling them the apostles, even with a little “a”! — what’s next, god with a little “g”?) wouldn’t WANT to take a look at the blogs, and confront the sin that indwells SGM. Even if only ONE person were treated wrongly, you’d think they’d want to do whatever possible to facilitate forgiveness and reconciliation. (And I don’t believe that reconciliation and restoration are the same thing.)
For the record, an SGM leader who caused me great pain went to great pains to apologize a year or so later, and said “I will do whatever it takes to make this right.” Although I believe he was sincere in his apology, nothing was ever done to make things right. I believe that the wrong done to me was facilitated by a strong precedent of leadership running roughshod over the flock. When he apologized, our personal relationship was reconciled, though there was not a restoration of ministry roles. He’s still there and I’m still gone, but I genuinely care for him as a brother.
I honestly believe that he is less culpable in the situation than the senior pastor whose permission allowed such behavior. And I guess that goes all the way up the chain. I wish them all well, and I mean WELL, as in healed of whatever spiritual sickness has permeated the thinking and behavior of those who COULD have been examples of love, grace and mercy while standing in what they consider the “very stead of God”.
When CJ and Larry were equals, it seemed that there was at least a voluntary system of checks and balances in place. Once the organization became a one-man show, things changed. When I asked why SGM did not elect leaders, they were quick to show me that the Bible says “appoint for yourselves…” But wasn’t that an instruction to the whole church, not just the senior pastor or organizational leader? Somehow, the idea of a self-appointed ministry head seems off-track. In studying government, I remember being taught that the most efficient form or government is a benevolent dictatorship. SGM apppeared to me, after Larry’s demise, to become a benevolent dictatorship, but as time passed, the benevolence disappeared, and the authoritarian mind-set trickled down to every leader in the system. Wouldn’t it be fabulous to see that trend reversed? I’m praying for it.
Thanks for the opportunity to vent a little.
August 27th, 2009 at 8:04 am
SquarePeg – I agree – “Even if only ONE person were treated wrongly, you’d think they’d want to do whatever possible to facilitate forgiveness and reconciliation. (And I don’t believe that reconciliation and restoration are the same thing.) ”
Earlier this year at a family meeting during the Leadership Conference, I was told CJ encouraged the pastor’s to attempt to reconcile with anyone who they had unresolved conflict with that occurred within the past 5 years.
My situation involved multiple parties in leadership from multiple locals. After hearing this news I contacted the appropriate party to inform them, although this encouraged me to see a shift in attitude from ‘covering up’ to ‘owning up’, I had doubts this would ever actually see any fruit.
One party of the multitude attempted to contact me to discuss the situation NOT to want to apologize or reconcile. I declined the meeting indicating I didn’t believe the individual wanted to reconcile or apologize due to the manner in which I was approached. My initial feelings were they wanted to make themselves feel good or they would have started to ‘own up’ to their sin when they approached me. I had to remind them of the countless time I attempted to reconcile only to be slap in the face with a scripture misinterpreted to meet their leadership needs.
Keep in mind only one of the multitude approached me, so even though they “maybe” cleaning house with the Brent situation. I doubt that true change has begun to occur until the leadership at the local level will start to show humility and true repentance. Was anyone else ever approached?
wayfaring man
August 27th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Square Peg,
“Indwelling sin”–I had almost forgotten that phrase–yikes, now that’s a blasst from my past.
August 27th, 2009 at 9:52 am
Wayfaring Man said:
“Earlier this year at a family meeting during the Leadership Conference, I was told CJ encouraged the pastor’s to attempt to reconcile with anyone who they had unresolved conflict with that occurred within the past 5 years.”
I know of one case where C.J. Mahaney himself hasn’t worked sincerely to resolve “unresolved conflict” though that conflict was over 5 years. Maybe that doesn’t count?
Thus like you, it doesn’t appear that Sovereign Grace Ministries is that sincere about doing this, especially if their leader isn’t setting the example.
August 27th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Hi Ellie,
That was a very long time ago. I said a lot of things that I regret saying and I am sorry. I hope that you and the others who remember me, believe in forgiveness, reconciliation, and a fresh start.
August 27th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Dennis,
I believe in all three.
August 27th, 2009 at 10:28 am
Jim,
Thank you very much. I realize this is my hearts desire also for my relationship with my former pastor, members, and leaders at SGM. My heart would melt at the words “we are sorry for how we hurt you and your family”. I have yet to hear those words. No phone calls, and no e-mails. I also want very much to forgive and forget the past – my sins and theirs. But it sounds like the abusiveness at SGM remains to this day. I want to forgive 70 X 7, but they have yet to even ask for forgiveness, or to even realize they need it. That is my struggle. Maybe I need to move on and let go of these unresolved hurts. It sure would be nice though to get some reconciliation and some closure. I want to call my former pastor and talk through some of these issues, but I am still not sure if that is wise. I want the Lord’s direction and timing in this. I also need to prepare my heart, which still has unresolved anger issues.
August 27th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Dennis,
My heart aches for you, as you look for life in others and institutions and organizations. Don’t my friend. Don’t even try to forgive–you cannot, BUT HE can and does. He is living in you, wanting to express HIMSELF out through you as you. Stop the struggle; stop waiting to live based on them getting around to doing what is right! It doesn’t matter. LIFE is in HIM, and HE is in you.
You’ve heard it said: Forgiveness sets the prisoner free, only to realize that the prisoner is ME! Jesus said, without me, you can do nothing. So, don’t try to handle this pain in the flesh (that which attempts to live independently of God); rather walk in the Spirit (that which lives in total dependence of HIM) Through Him, you can rediscover the joy, grace, and peace that is your inheritance through HIM. Don’t look outside of HIM; it isn’t there, although everything, including the flesh, screams that it is.
Turn your back on it and walk away free! You are loved; HE IS CRAZY about you, and so are those of us who have can so identify with what is going on with you.
August 27th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Also, let me practice what I am preaching. I want to ask for forgiveness for any and all of the hurtful comments I made here and on Survivors in the past. I was wrong to do that. I had come here to aid in the healing process, and instead I made things worse. I offended and hurt many of you, and I am deeply sorry. I was arrogant, prideful, and rude. Please forgive me. If there are any specific situations that anyone needs to address me about, please let me know.
August 27th, 2009 at 10:57 am
With regards to CJ, the jiggler believes only one of four possible statements can be true:
1. CJ is aware of the abuses in the organization and approves of them.
2. CJ is aware of the abuses in the organization and does not approve of them.
3. Cj is unaware of the abuses in the organization and approves of them.
4. CJ is unaware of the abuses in the organization and does not approve of them.
If number one is true, nothing will change until he is removed and replaced, not with a hand picked successor who will maintain the status quo, but with a true reformer.
If number two is true, his motivations for allowing the abuses to continue or his unwillingness to confront the abuses must be called into question and must reflect on his character.
If number three is true, the SGM flock is in deep kimchi. It can only get worse.
If number four is true, then there is hope becuase an increase in knowledge could lead to true, top down reform.
Given the inordinate amount of information gathering and reporting that went on in his local sgm church, the jiggler believes that number one is most likely to be true. The whole think right to act right kung fu is just too strong. Secretly, in deep dark places he doesn’t like to talk about at parties, he hopes it is number four. That would make CJ a lot like the jiggler and therefore make it easier to understand how we got in this mess.
sic semper tyrannis
\m/ >.< \m/
August 27th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Hi GD,
Thank you very much for your encouragement and counsel. Resting in, and trusting in God is something I need to understand. This is HIS salvation! HE is the Author and Perfecter of faith. I pray for HIS resolution to this turmoil in my soul.
August 27th, 2009 at 11:08 am
As I expected, I didn’t think many pastors or leaders would take the initiative to seek forgiveness, yet their is still time. I do hope God convicts them.
For me it is an issue of trust. I moved on, realizing many of them would never see their sin. Personally, I think I have come to terms and forgiven most of them ON MY OWN yet do I want to reestablish a relationship with an individual(s) who can’t bring themselves to seek forgiveness. I don’t think I can. I still have issues with trusting others after so many who I thought were friends turned out only to be relationships of convenience rather than brothers in Christ.
Yet, God forgives us many times over when we sin against Him on a daily basis. In this you see my personal internal conflict, how can I hold others to a standard that God himself doesn’t hold me to.
I am thankful for my current church who realizes the collateral damage caused in my life by those who thought they were ’serving’ me and by myself. To be in an environment where love is not based on what you do, but who you are in Christ is amazing.
Yet, we are sinners in need of grace and I realize at some point we’ll sin against one another…then it will be how do we respond and reconcile. If done correct this process should draw others to Christ rather than allow them to point to the hypocrisy in the church universal.
August 27th, 2009 at 11:12 am
I posted this on another thread… thought I would re-post it here… I’m not of the persuasion that men can’t/don’t see their sin, especially when it has been brought to their attention time and time again. :-/
I Got Out made a great statement above…
“I’ve said it before and I’ll beat the dead horse again, I don’t need Mickey, Brent, or Larry to acknowledge their responsibility (which is good because I doubt I will ever rank high enough to “deserve” such a thing), however, shouldn’t they feel some need to do it since they are pastors. At least 2 of the 3 above have said from the pulpit that the responsibility is greater on a pastor to care for his flock.
I spoke to someone who was treated horribly recently in regards to the Grace fiasco and this person told me Mickey said he would be willing to sit down and discuss any situation with any person who has left or been run off from the church. Personally, and I said this to the fellow I was speaking to, I think the “pastors” should be actively pursuing these “misfits” with the express purpose of humbling themselves and acknowledging their failings. Many folks are laying along the side of the road bloody and bruised and can’t drag themselves into Mickey’s office to run the risk of beating their heads against the wall. I would be one of those right now.”
This is something that I never understood, nor probably ever will. The fact that SGM pastors/leaders think that it’s up to the individual to pursue them to “make things right”, to confront these pastors/leaders of their sins against them is mind boggling! It is their sin that has hurt God’s people.
They know who they have hurt, who they have sinned against and it is their responsibility to seek those folks out, to repent to them (and God!!) and ask for forgiveness. Usually, they have been made aware of their sin by those who have been sinned against… but even if they haven’t, what about the Holy Spirit convicting them? This is scary stuff! They are either immune to the prodding of the Holy Spirit, or they just don’t care that they have sinned against God and His sheep, destroyed people in their arrogance and pride… destroyed their lives, destroyed their faith.
This attitude, to me, is the height of arrogance! “If you call me and set up an appointment, I will be more than happy to discuss this situation with you.” HUH???
I will never be convinced that they have no idea of their sins. Christians have the Holy Spirit, Who is faithful to convict us and change us, if we only humble ourselves, seek repentance, and forgiveness, from our Holy God first and foremost, then those we have sinned against.
I say it’s time for SGM leaders/pastors to man up! Accept your responsibility and pick up the phone… send an email… choose to do the right thing! You need to take the first steps toward “making things right”, toward forgiveness! I know this could be a very daunting task, as the list of those sinned against is very long indeed… But it is the right thing to do, the biblical thing to do… and, in not taking the first step, it speaks volumes!… and not in a very complimentary way.
If these pastors/leaders can’t even accomplish this task, how can anyone have any confidence in them at all?… to follow them, to look up to them, to seek guidance from them when they themselves aren’t walking out biblical principles themselves and seeking to serve God and follow Him in all areas of their lives?
When I see pastors/leaders stepping up to the plate, seeking out those they have sinned against, of their own accord (not because they have been reminded by the ones sinned against!… kind of like a “V-8 moment”) I will again be full of hope that SGM can change, that they want to change. But as long as their arrogance and pride permeate the whole organization, there is no hope left in me for SGM. This is, indeed, a very sad thing.
May God continue to have mercy on SGM…
August 27th, 2009 at 11:45 am
To Joel:
Joel, as I read your post and the quotes that you posted by others, I do not perceive that anyone wants to destroy CJ (or any other man in SGM) or for CJ to be destroyed. Quite the contrary, for myself and I believe I speak for the others, it is the evil and wickedness that has been allowed to thrive in SGM for years that we want exposed and destroyed. Eph. 5:11 states that we to are to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather expose them. As I have said before, that it why I have written on this blog. My intent has never been to destroy any man but rather to expose unfruitful works of darkness. CJ is the head and in some way, he has allowed all of this to transpire. I hope that he did not know and approve of all of the abuses, however, he has been and is the head. He is ultimately responsible. A man of integrity takes responsiblity and does the right thing. Study the military. If a captain of a ship is off duty but the next in charge rams the ship, guess who steps up and takes responsibility — the captain because he is the one in charge. That is why I appeal to CJ to step down. The patterns and numbers of abuses, wrong doctrine, control, etc. have been too serious for CJ to ignore. In my opinion, he should step down in order for this movement to be restored and healed.
The question remains: where did all the wrong doctrine, wrong counseling teaching and techniques come from? Someone had to teach these pastors. Didn’t it most certainly start with CJ? And do you really think that there are any autonomous churches within SGM? It may appear to the people that their church is loosely affiliated with SGM but I believe that the iron hand of SGM is over all the churches in one way or another.
CJ was in SGC Chesapeake recently, gave a Sunday morning message, spoke to the “CG leaders”, probably met with the pastors. What a wonderful opportunity he had to take responsibility, apologize and begin the process of restoration and rebuilding in this wounded and bleeding church. From what I have heard, this did not happen.
August 27th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Jiggler, it almost seems like you have an above question for Quizzler, I wonder what he has to say about CJ.
And to you Joel, you do not know me, and you have never looked into my eyes, or lived a day in my shoes. When bad things began to happened, and CJ and other leaders were notified. He/They turned a deaf ear. But they somehow they are listed as the resident “covering” so please allow him/them to defend himself.
August 27th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Wayfaring Man,
What a gift it is to go to a new church where they can love you as you try to trust again.
I understand that.
Our first pastor outside of SGM said to me one day “When someone has come out of a negative or abusive church situation, I encourage them to go to church. But, I also tell them that it’s OK to sit in the back row for awhile while they heal.”
Praise God!
I am so grateful for those first months outside SGM where I was convinced that I needed to go to church, but where I had no idea what “normal” meant and where I was afraid to trust “organized religion” ever again.
And I don’t feel like I was particularly “abused” by anyone…I know my husband was. But, I don’t think I ever was. I dished out a lot and I witnessed a lot of it. My entire understanding of christianity was distorted.
I’m glad for you that you have found a place that’s safe.
Sidney
August 28th, 2009 at 12:09 am
Someone said to me, “If you’ve forgiven the offenses as you say you have, why won’t you come back to the (SGM) church?”
My answer: “Because I cannot entrust my heart to the pastors.”
September 7th, 2009 at 3:17 am
Dennis,
I was reading your comments and I had a question. What SGM church in Port Orange Fl? There has never been a SGM church or plant in that city. Who was the pastor? I am confused. Thanks for your reply.
Dennis
August 26th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Hi GD,
No, I have never posted my story. I was in the church in Port Orange, Fl from about 1985 – 1996. The abuses were numerous and very widespread. There were so many wounded people from spiritual abuses there, that it would take a book to detail it all. I was told to write my complaints to Brent Detwiler, who was the “apostle” appointed to our church. I never heard back from him, only a third party response that said that he did not agree with me. Imagine that!
September 7th, 2009 at 3:25 am
Ah Dennis…………………
Accept my apologies! You are talking about Halifax. I always think of that more as Daytona. I am half asleep. No followup need. My bad. Have a great week!
September 7th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Hi Paula,
How did you know about Halifax? Yes, Port Orange is right next to Daytona. The church was actually in Daytona for a while, but then moved to South Daytona, and now in Port Orange. They had a name change a few years ago, so how did you know it had been called Halifax? Have you been there, or do you know anyone from there? Dan Walsh is the so called pastor. When I first went there, Chuck Hamlin (Dan’s father in law) was the main man in leadership. Then later, when we joined SGM, Chuck and one other leaders got the boot from being leaders, and SGM made Dan the pastor! I never have figured that one out.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Dennis-Halifax was the name of the church. With the Florida celebrations, most people were aware of the other Florida churches.
September 7th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Whats done in the dark MUST COME OUT IN THE LIGHT…
Hi Glenn.
September 7th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Charlie,
May I ask, why you often end your posts with “Hi Glenn” ?? Are you refering to the new Sr Pastor in the North Denver Church? If thats not something you want to post, I understand.-Nevertheless, “Whats done in the darkess must come out in the light” is a banner for SGM Refuge………May His Light continue to unveil and uncover and expose areas of authoritative mauling of Gods people and their man-inspired doctrines of control.
September 7th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Hi Jim,
I only other Fla church I knew of back in the late 80’s early 90’s was the Metro church in Orlando. I did not really pay that much attention to the other Fla churches. I was just curious how Paula knew about Halifax. So Paula is from Florida? I did not know that.
September 8th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I knew Dan and Cindy Walsh. They contacted our church (FFX) first about becoming part of the PDI family of churches. At the time we knew them, they were fairly young, looking to adopt their first child and seemingly passionate and sincere about their walk with the Lord and starting a new church. We would see them at Celebrations but didn’t keep in touch over the years. I am so sad to hear that things haven’t worked out at their church.
I just spoke with a friend in Charlotte and still heard nothing about the Mooresville church closing.
September 8th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Hi Mack,
So you were there back when Larry Tomczak was there. I always liked Larry. I think SGM would have been much different today if he was still there instead of CJ.
What did you mean that things have not worked out at their new church (Dan and Cindy)?
September 10th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Hi, I think it has been around a year this month that I have posted something on this site. Some of you may remember my story from last year. I was involved with the Charlotte church for approximately five years, and three years ago this November, I ended up the psychiatric ward for one week.
Although I will not blame my stay there entirely on Crossway, as I had struggled with many issues, like depression, for the majority of my life, I think that my problems were greatly exacerbated by my time in that legalistic, ungracious environment and some of the really, really bad counsel that I (and my husband) received.
The affect this environment and counsel had on me, at least, was I became so oppressed and burdened by this weight of legalism, that I could barely function, and well…it got to the point where I stopped functioning altogether, hence the stay at the psych ward, which by the way, turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
During this time last year, I met with MC, along with my husband, and I will say that after we met with him, I felt a tremendous release, and I felt like a weight had been lifted off of my shoulder. He appeared to be very genuine, humble, apologetic and asked for my forgiveness regarding how my situation was handled at CW. I feel like I’ve released a lot of the bitterness that I felt, and I feel like to the best of my ability, I’ve forgiven the leadership.
However, over the course of the year, I’ve learned some things, some friends had a really horrible experience this time last year at the church plant, I’ve heard bits and pieces about the church plant in Mooresville, Brent stepping down, now the church plant has been closed, and some old wounds have been stirred, hence my new handle, “still wounded.” I think last year I actually used my real name.
My husband still has some minimal contact with some folks at CW, and when he told me about the Mooresville church closing down, and the fact that Brent stepped down (or was asked to step down, not sure which was it was), my question was (and still is, since I can not get an answer), did they let the congregation(s) know why he stepped down?? And, I was lead to this website again.
I know I may be speaking out of turn here, and I don’t know all of the details, but I will try to explain why this question is important, at least to me. Brent has been such a HUGE influence at SGM for such a long time, and I know he has significantly impacted me (in a negative, fearful kind of way), if he was dismissed because of his negative impact, I think it would be important for them to share where they disagree with him so that people can adjust their thinking?? Ummmmm…does that make sense???
And, after hearing about this stuff again, I just got on the internet last night, searching for information as to why he is no longer there. Does SGM see now that he was too legalistic, arrogant and authoritarian?? Why is everything so secretive? (and I don’t know, maybe all of this was shared in a “family meeting”).
I guess I, like so many other people, would like to see leadership address something from the actually pulpit, to admit that because of their authoritarian and legalistic approach to Christianity, many people have been damaged and/or nearly destroyed.
I read a comment earlier from someone that stated that someone they know has experienced a lot of kindness from people in a SGM church, and I don’t deny that there have been kindnesses. I mean, when I had my third child, our care group was extremely generous in providing meals for our family and people in our care group often let their children baby sit ours, free of charge.
But, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about the environment as a whole. And, as much as I try to shake it, I’m still shaken by it, when I’m completely honest about it. What is it that war vets experience? Shell shock or post traumatic stress disorder?? Well…I still feel that way sometimes.
Yes, I’ve had trust issues most of my life, and I don’t know why, but I invested almost wholeheartedly my trust in SGM leadership. I mean, if they said it, I believed it. I feel as though I came out of a cult. And I sometimes ask my husband (and my therapist!), what predisposes people to follow leaders so blindly like so many of us have??
In case your interested, my therapist said that so many of us have a strong need for certainty, and all too often, people in groups like SGM are willing to give us quick answers to every question, like how to school, should a wife work, should I follow my husband, even if I’m losing my mind, what books should I read, ad nauseum.
So, looking back at my time there, I want to see what it was in me that was attracted to that for so long, although I did try to leave way before my husband was ready.
When I had my breakdown three years ago, and I was suicidal and staring at my bottle of pills day after day, and my family was falling apart, the sentence that kept coming to my mind was, “go ahead, do it, you are nothing but a sinner deserving of hell‘
Several months after I got out of the hospital, I was looking at my notes that I had taken one Sunday at CW, and I came across this one sentence: never forget that you are a sinner deserving of hell. Well…I’m not denying that is true, but is that what we are to focus on as children of God?? What about I am precious and I have worth because Jesus thought we were valuable enough to give His own life for us??
Anyway, I am digressing. I keep hearing that things are changing for the better at CW – they more open to a variety of people: working moms, non-homeschoolers, etc. I really hope that is true, I really do. And, I want to believe that MC was sincere in his apology to me last year, and for the most part, I do, but when I’ve read some of these stories, like the one from Friendly Fire, it seems that they all knew what was going on. I keep thinking, maybe he (MC) thought he was genuinely doing the right thing and is sincerely striving for change.
I just want closure and peace in my heart, for me as well as for all of you. I’m glad the website is still up. Thanks for listening to me.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Hi Still Wounded,
Thank you very much for sharing your heart, and your experience. I was bed ridden for 4 years after being spiritually abused at my SGM church. The Drs called it chronic fatigue and fibromylagia. The Lord called it “a crushed spirit that dries up the bones” (Proverbs 17:22). I thought the Lord had abandoned me because SGM had abandoned me. I had tremedous fear and anxiety for those 4 years. I was so weak that my wife had to feed me. It was horrible. At times, I thought I was losing my mind.
But the Lord told my wife and I that He was going to heal me, and He did. No Drs and no medicine – just God. I know of others in SGM that deal with chronic fatigue, depression, etc, and I believe it is a direct result of the severe spiritual abuse and their constant focus on sin instead of who we are in Christ. They do not really believe in sovereign grace, nor do they practice it. Their name is a total misnomer. May God open their eyes and grant them repentance, for everyone’s sake.
September 10th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Still Wounded,
Big hugs from a canary who was formally a member of the Charlotte church. Man, do I understand what you are saying!
This is the truth: the Bible calls us “saints”. Show me one letter from Paul that began, “to all the sinners of church such and such”. The finished work accomplished by our Elder Brother has given us the title of saints, and all the rights and priviledges thereof. We will still stumble in this life from time to time, but we are to remind ourselves that heaven is our home, and that the end result of our hope and faith will result in eternity with our Father! Glory to God!
Alot of us did get involved in SGM to feel “secure”. If we followed the routine, obeyed the leaders, submitted to their “oversight”, then God would be pleased with us. Nope. Just isn’t the truth. Never has been. Never will be. It is faith that pleases God, but not faith in a man, only faith in HIM!
I am so glad you got the help you needed, and that you seem to be on the road to recovery. I just wanted you to feel the welcome here, and to know that your story is not uncommon. You weren’t crazy to see the things you did. We saw it, too!
As for change in SGM, especially the Charlotte church, I don’t know much. Even the reasons for Brent’s shanking have been kept pretty low-key. I guess we don’t need the details. It would be good to pray for Brent and his family, for this cannot be an easy time. We can hope that changes are on the horizon, that people will now longer experience the control that we did. Time will tell.
Still Wounded, one day you will change your name to ”Totally Healed”! In the meantime, I want you to know that your post touched my heart, and I am praying for you today.
September 10th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Thank you both for your posts, and thanks so much for your prayers. I really appreciate them.
Canary, I guess you are right, we don’t need the details, but I keep thinking I do; I just want them to see and admit (all of them, from CJ on down) that they are wrong and have done a lot of wrong doing, and they’ve damaged a lot of people.
But, I’ve also got to come to terms with the fact that this might not ever happen and my healing can not depend upon that.
Thanks once again. I think there is healing in reaching out and sharing.
September 14th, 2009 at 9:30 am
I wanted to point you all in the direction of a message preached by Gene Emerson (Sr. Pastor of Kingsway CC in Richmond, VA) this past Sunday, titled “Community of Grace: Celebrating our Differences”.
The main point of the message was that if God accepts us, how can we not accept others who have differences, and even more, celebrate our differences! We can trust God to be working in each other’s lives, instead of legalistically trying to think that we all must be the same, and that “I” am the standard.
To sum it up: “In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, charity.”
I acknowledge that I don’t know much at all about the history behind all the posts on this site, and I’m sure that a lot of people have been hurt. I just wanted to observe that I see God working to bring grace and acceptance where there has been a tendency toward legalism in this church (and maybe SGM as a whole?) There is even a confession of mistakes made in this area by Gene and the pastors of Kingsway in the past.
http://www.kingswayaudio.com/m.....merson.mp3
Please take 45 minutes and listen to this message. I would be interested to hear any of your thoughts on the message. I would be glad to talk with you more about this.
I am a current member of Kingsway (4 yrs) who is very concerned about God’s church and hopeful to see his continuing work of healing and growth.) I am very grateful for what God is doing!
September 14th, 2009 at 10:05 am
By the Grace of God,
Yes, I listened to Gene’s message, actually late yesterday. I was encouraged, not as much with its content, but by the change in Gene’s perceived thinking. I was a member of Kingsway back in the day, when Gene was the antithesis of that message and watched him crush the spirit of a dear one who dared question.
If he meant, at a heart level, what he said, Kingsway will lead the way our of a very oppressive, authoritarian movement. If this is just a reaction to some of the stuff that has happened at Chesapeake and Brent’s church and is damage control, the whole SGM movement will rot from the inside out. My hope is that this is evidence of God moving in a mighty way. But words applied will determine the authenticity of it all.
September 14th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Hi By The Grace of God.
It saddens me that this teaching will not be applied. If it really was applied, then there would no longer be a need for SGM, and THEIR doctrine, THEIR polity, THEIR way of worship, THEIR way doing church, or THEIR family of churches. They practice the exact opposite of what this teaching says. They agree with it in principle, yet are blind to the fact that it is not being practiced. If it were practiced by everyone, there would be no denominations, and no families of churches. If SGM were to implement this teaching, they would have to totally disban their organization. Wouldn’t that be wonderful!
September 14th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
ByTheGraceOfGod said:
“I wanted to point you all in the direction of a message preached by Gene Emerson (Sr. Pastor of Kingsway CC in Richmond, VA) this past Sunday, titled “Community of Grace: Celebrating our Differences”.
As others have said, hopefully this is a good sign but I am skeptical. Sometimes people will share things like this and know the right things to say but then don’t practice them. In other words they have a blind eye to what they themselves do etc.
Was there any admitting of past wrongs in this area that Gene Emerson indicated? I haven’t listed to his message yet. I really doubt he would acknowledge his past mistakes in this area.
Jared Mellinger a few months ago gave a talk titled “Real Church: Authentic Gospel Ministry” which gave a pretty good balance on pastoral authority. It almost seemed to contradict or at least better balance Mahane’y’s teaching on members being a joy to lead etc. where Mahaney teaches an unbalanced view (IMO) of Hebrews 13.
Jared Mellinger is the Sr. Pastor of the Philadelphia SGM Church. This is the same church that excommunicated Dottie Baker over her questioning their Ezzo teaching on parenting. Again maybe there will be a change at this SGM Church but I am skeptical. If more SGM pastors practiced what Jared Mellinger taught in this message (including C.J. Mahaney) then there might not be a need for this and similar blogs.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Thanks to all who have posted recently. I haven’t been to CW in around three years, but I’ve heard from people on this site and others around here that they, and SGM as a whole are making efforts to change, or they SAY they are making efforts.
And there are many of us who are very skeptical, wondering are they genuine or is this damage control because of websites like this.
I was just thinking about that this morning, and I really just think what would lend authenticity to their words is a genuine confession from the movement as a whole concerning wrong doing and wrong teachings.
I don’t think that it is enough to say, we just welcome all and we just want to love Jesus; it seems to me what folks would like is just a public acknowledgement from SGM, something like, “hey, we’re not perfect, we don’t have it altogether, we’re not the only ones doing church “right”, we’ve hurt some people and left a lot of damage in the wake, we’ve preached some things that are legalistic and too heavy handed and this is what it was…”and it seems like they are still very reticent to do that.
I will say that when I personally met with the senior pastor from CW last year, he did apologize to me and said that CW had erred and had not served me well, and he asked for my forgiveness. He acknowledged that the congregation all looked alike, and he would like to see that change.
When I reported that last year, I know a lot were skeptical and questioning his motives. I don’t know his motives, but I know that he certainly seemed genuine and sincere. Maybe he was or maybe he is just a good actor!! But, I think he was, and I think he wants to move in a different direction.
Having said that, I do know that many, many people have NOT received apologies and have not received any acknowledgment from SGM of any wrong doing, and I think it would just give credibility to their words if they would do so publicly, from the pulpit or at a family meeting. I think that would demonstrate to all that they are serious about this business of change.
September 15th, 2009 at 9:27 am
PS
I hope I made myself clear earlier! While the apology from MC at CW really helped me in terms of healing, I know that most have not received something like that, and I know personally people who have been hurt and are still grieving and are in some kind of tailspin, like, “I still can’t believe what happened.”
And, as I’ve mentioned before, when I heard all of this about Brent, it really stirred up some old hurts for me, and I think the biggest question that I had when I heard this was, “did he acknowledge his wrong doing? Did SGM acknowledge his/their mistakes (publicly and specifically)?” And, I think that is very important that they do so in order to effect any real change.
So, I guess I just wanted to make it clear to you all that just because I received an apology doesn’t mean that I think, “well…things are just all peachy keen and rosy now!”
I just want to recommend a good book called A Scanalous Freedom by Steve Brown. He is reformed, but he just seems so…so…FREE!! And I love his quotes. Here are some:
“When the requirement for acceptance in any particular group is to think certain thoughts, to act in certain ways, ad to fit in certain molds – and we don’t hink or act that way or fit the mold- we tend to fake it. We put on a mask that says, “I’m just like you. Now will you please love me and accept me?”
“The greatest tragedy of the church is that, in many cases, the most dishonest hour of the week is the hour we spend at church.”
“I’m a Presybeterian, and we believe in a doctine called ‘radical and pervasive depravity.’ If we find any depravity, however, we kick you out!” (I love that one – or you could say instead of kicking out, how ’bout beating up?).
“Freedom threatens religious people because it takes away their leverage and makes it more difficult for them to maintain control.”
OK, OK, I think you guys get the picture. And, there are so many excellent things that I’ve highlighted, I could basically quote the entire book to you. But so much reminds me of what I DID NOT experience at SGM/CW.
Thanks for listening to me.
September 15th, 2009 at 9:44 am
OK, sorry, one more time. I tried to edit some mistakes but had difficulty in doing do. The book is A Scandalous Freedom, and I wanted to correct a line at the end, “but so much reminds me of what I did or DID NOT expererience at SGM/CW.”
Well…I think I’ll get off now before I keep thinking of things to add and keep writing posts entitled, “and another thing…and another thing…!”
September 15th, 2009 at 9:55 am
ByTheGrace,
Gene gave an example of having forcefully counseled a couple not to allow their daughter to go to college out of town. He has since apologized to the couple.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:17 am
The Missus… I haven’t listened to the message… it’s good that Gene gave an example of his poor and inadequate (unbiblical?) counseling and his subsequent apology to the couple.
What would go a long way towards believing that Gene has had a heart change would be him repenting to the three couples in Chesapeake for announcing at a family meeting that they were “enemies of the church.” Why did he say this? Because these three couples loved their church enough to speak out against the error and poor judgment (and yes, sin issues on the part of leadership) they saw with their own eyes, and the unbiblical counseling that Esther (and others) received?
Methinks he should start there.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am
How about SGM quits FORCEFULLY counseling, period! How about they quit manipulating and controlling people. How about they quit lording it over others. How about they just quit, and disban this entire non-Biblical organization. Let’s see some real and total repentance.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:42 am
My concern is that the fall out from spiritual abuse has reached UP to the leadership/apostolic level and damage control is trickling down from on high. I hope not, but in my heart of hearts, I know how entrenched the shepherding movement, covering thing, has woven itself into the very fabric of the “old guard!”
So, yes, Gene seeking out the three couples, “the enemies of the church” would be a huge step beyond just making sure more people don’t discover the exit doors.
September 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Still wounded-
A Scandalous Freedom by Steve Brown should be read by everyone who has been in a SGM church. I considered buying a bunch of copies and giving them away. Then I considered blogging on a chapter weekly.
Then I got really busy…
Read the book, gang.
September 15th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Still Wounded-
You know I love you and pray for you!!! We need to get together again.
I hear myself so much in your reaction to all that has happened in recent weeks in Charlotte. I had the same sort of reaction and I have never received any sort of acknowledgement of being failed by these men.
As far as the profession of change…actions speak louder than words.
I have contacted, just to see the reaction I would get, several folks still involved with Cway. Initially, they respond back to me and tell me how wonderful they’re doing and how the church has changed. Some of them have politely asked me how I am doing and what’s going on. When I share what God has and is still doing in my life, I never hear back from them. Mostly, I assume, because I have a less than positive reflection on SGM and have needed healing as a result of my time there. But, the “change” apparently only is worth talking about if nothing negative is brought up about SGM, C-way, etc. The minute I have a concern…bang, conversation over.
Doesn’t sound like change to me. Maybe just change in “SGM-speak”.
September 15th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Jim Thanks
September 15th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Here is the link to Steve Brown’s audio messages on A Scandalous Freedom. They are excellent.
http://stevebrownetc.com/categ.....s-freedom/
September 15th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
What about When Religion Becomes Evil by Charles Kimball? My wounded daughter just gave me that book. I read two chapters, started crying, had to set it aside for a few days. Any thoughts?
September 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I Got Out-I haven’t read it.
Dennis-thanks for the link! I’ve added it to the sidebar.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned: I don’t know who you are, but I’ll bet a cookie we know each other. Iappreciate the thoughtfulness of your comments, the way they are written, and your tone. Blessings to you.
September 15th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Thanks Square Peg. Did you attend Kingsway? If so, when. You have my attention because I am so into cookies.
Please don’t feel compelled to reveal anything you are uncomfortable with. Zero problem!
September 15th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Gratefully disillusioned — would love to correspond privately! Maybe Jim could give you my email in a private way?
September 27th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Gratefully Disillusioned wrote: By the Grace of God,
Yes, I listened to Gene’s message…. I was encouraged, not as much with its content, but by the change in Gene’s perceived thinking. I was a member of Kingsway back in the day, when Gene was the antithesis of that message and watched him crush the spirit of a dear one who dared question.
I just listened to this message, a couple of weeks after it was delivered. And remembered hearing Gene preach a sermon or maybe a series on this same topic MANY years ago — the difference between liberty and license, and it was life-giving to me at the time. I don’t know how it happened that church thinking got so far away from his original sermons on the topic.
The old problem of “practicing what you preach” dogs us all, but I hope and pray in the most fervent way that this will be practiced.
September 27th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
oops — meant “liberty, license, and legalism” in the post above…
September 27th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Regarding Gene’s message: Perhaps the thinking moves away from the truth of grace because the need to control the masses(the congregation) insists that control mechanisms (sin management systems) spring from the pragmatic fleshly mind. Pastors feel the pressure to manage behavior, so their congregation are less messy. Instead of trusting God over time to nudge people along as they cooperate with the NEW LIFE within, pastors, often, feel the need to tweak people, and groups of people, for external cosmetics. It is quicker but it is fruit of the flesh. Spiritual fruit is pure, real, and is infectious. The real thing creeps through a group or a family from the inside out.
We all know innately that the new covenant is about Christ IN ME, the hope of glory and NOT the “do good, get good; do bad, get bad” paradigm of the old covenant. God has blessed HIS people, in Christ, no longer based on how well we are keeping the rules. He gave us HIS LIFE internally—His life was ON them at times in the old and in them (us) permanently in the new: no separation, no condemnation, no vacillation of His love based on us. Christ Jesus finished it off for us!
September 27th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
I wonder how many pastors confuse their responsibility to care for the sheep with a desire for “reputation”? I mean, after all, they are taught that they are responsible for our souls. With that kind of belief behind them, a subtle form of selfish ambition (plus the need for job security) could slip in unawares. Just wondering. I know somehow that the understanding of their responbilities has been over-reached. It is like a pastor becomes a mediator for my soul. I know that ain’t right! Yet, it seems like that is how they think. Am I wrong?
September 29th, 2009 at 10:46 am
I finally was able to listen to Gene Emerson’s message and he did in fact give some examples of where he fell short in this area. These examples were fairly substantial examples vs. some of the trivial examples of sin you hear many leaders in SGM saying when then “acknwledge” their faults. I was glad that he didn’t just teach a message without admitting these shortcomings.
I was impressed to hear Gene actually admitting where he had failed in this area. One doesn’t hear this very often from SGM pastors. Who knows, maybe next will be Josh Harris admitting the problems his “kissing dating goodbye” approach has caused vs. the perfect picture he paints of his approach.
As square peg said, lets hope that Gene practices what he preaches.
Also, as Kris has pointed out on the SGM Survivors Blog, at least some SGM Leaders have a tendency to say various alternatives are acceptable like with homeschooling vs. secular and private schooling) but when you listen to the message it is given in a way to push people to believe that homeschooling is really the only godly choice. Thus Gene Emerson and other leaders may say one thing (that you are free to choose various options) but when one looks at the subtleties of the message, many times they are geared to saying only one way is the truly “biblical” alternative. You see a similar thing with courtship vs. dating.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Hey Jim,
you seem to be a bit of an ass. have some sympathy for all involved. your arrogance and pride have you so blind to sympathy that you seem to enjoy seeing people hurt. I’ll pray for you bro.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Hey Andy,
We (humanity) are all “a bit of an ass!” Be thankful Jim allows you on his site to express yourself. For further clarification, Jim is a saint, a son, and growing in grace, just like you because of HIM, the Lord Jesus.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Hi Andy,
You are correct-I’m a bit of an ass. Some would say you’re being kind.
What exactly are you referring to? I sincerely don’t enjoy seeing people hurt.
Thank you for praying for my assness.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Hi Andy,
I need prayer, much more than Jim does. I am the biggest ass you will ever meet. I like being an ass and I have a PhD in being an ass, while Jim is still in kindergarten. I have more pride and arrogance than everyone else on this site combined. So if you are going to pray for someone to be less of an ass, then don’t waste your time on Jim. Pray for someone that REALLY needs your prayers – ME!
October 13th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
“Assness” – classic.
October 13th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Dennis,
You, my brother, are loved beyond measure. Our “assness” is forgiven and behind the “back” of God forever! You identity is in HIM, not your “assness.” Live in Him as a son, without condemnation, separation, or religious crap. You are free, live in it!
And, by the way, Andy’s prayer will NOT change our “assness” one iota. Change comes as we walk in the Spirit–that is the only remedy.
Your “assness,”
GD
October 13th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Will this be our version of “I’m the greatest sinner”? If so, I concede that Dennis is far worse than me.
Seriously-Andy, where are you seeing pride, arrogance, and lack of sympathy?
October 13th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Can I believe what I’m reading — somebody comes around calling names while simultaneously demonstrating definition of such?? Too funny — and I loved the gracious responses from Gratefully Disillusioned and the so-called Bit. (Perhaps, Jim, you might consider changing your handle…)
The hard part about reading people’s opinions/posts is that we can never hear the voice, the nuance, the attitude behind the words. In reading them, we often get them wrong — our reading is always colored by what’s going on in our own world at that moment.
Have a great day, folks, extending GRACE — which, by definition, is always unmerited!
October 13th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Hi GDfSGM,
My assness is bigger than all of the contestants on “Biggest Loser” put together into one giant ass. I am very proud of that. I have worked very hard to be in the Guinness Book under the biggest ass ever. No condemnation whatsoever. I know God has and does continue to forgive my assness.
Jim,
Thank you for conceeding. You obviously had no choice.
October 13th, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Who knows, maybe next will be Josh Harris admitting the problems his “kissing dating goodbye” approach has caused vs. the perfect picture he paints of his approach.
Steve,
To my knowledge Josh did speak about how his book was taken too far and he was encouraging men to go out with women to grab coffee and just talk. A friend of mine told me about this sermon because this was an area in the former church I attended that was always taught with mixed signals.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Hello Andy,
I was just wondering which local Sovereign Grace Ministries church do you pastor?
October 13th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Bethany
Regarding Josh Harris not really admitting problems with “kissing dating goodbye” you might want to look at this blog entry of mine:
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008.....s-website/
Josh Harris may have admitted some of the problems to his local church but from what I have seen has been silent about broadcasting these problems where they would be more widely known like his blog. It certainly baffles me that he hasn’t done this but I am sure there could be various reasons for his reluctance to more openly admit the problems. It is what brought him to fame and might look bad if he admitted how imperfect and the flaws of something that brought him to prominence. Only God and possibly Josh Harris know the real motivation.
I also heard that there was a power struggle within SGM and Josh Harris was wanting to take a more relaxed approach while Brent Detwiler apposed that. In that struggle Detwiler won.
Hope this clarifies what I mean.
October 13th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Charlie – Chuckling … has anyone else noticed it’s a characteristic of SGM pastor-speak to address every guy as ”bro” ?
October 14th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Steve,
I will have to tak a look at your blog post. Thanks for he clarification
October 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
To Jim: You’ve helped far more people than you’ve hurt by starting this blog. Just had to speak up in defense of your efforts, here.
I have to add that I like how you humor the critics!
October 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Bethany
I am glad that I helped clarify what I was saying.
SGM has been practicing “kssing dating goodbye” almost since the group originally started over 30 years ago. It has certainly shown to have a number of problems. Josh Harris is the only SGM Leader that I am aware of to at least admit some problems so that is something to commend him on. On the other hand since various problems with “kissing dating goodbye” have existed for so long it is sad that Josh Harris never admitted these problems in his book including his book’s one revision.
Most of the SGM Pastors I have seen only want to hear what they want to hear about “kissing dating goodbye” and thus only hear how supposedly good it works and not the problems it has caused. Sadly Josh Harris in his book painted a false picture of “kissing dating” goodbye by neglecting the problems it has caused and has done little to correct it.
In one interview he said that people using his book legalistically was beyond his control
Here are a few other blog entries you might find informative:
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2008.....hipgroups/
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007.....istically/
October 14th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Jim and Collateral,
“Thank you for praying for my assness.” & “assness- classic”
thank you both for making me LAUGH OUT LOUD. I can’t remember the last time I LOL.
Priceless!!!!!
October 14th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Steve,
Thanks for the other sites. I am no friend of SGM and spent the last five years at a SGM church. Sorry if I sent off mixed signals in my initial post.
October 14th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Bethany
No problem. I just wanted to make sure you saw some of my points about Harris no matter what your circumstance was.
I have had a few “discussions” with SGM Defenders that seem to think the one or two messages that Josh Harris gave somewhat correcting IKDG absolves Harris of all the problems his book has created. I wasn’t sure if you were one or not.
I am glad you aren’t a Harris defender.
Thanks again.
Steve
October 15th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
A whole discussion on assness and the jiggler missed it.
*sigh
October 16th, 2009 at 9:19 am
To all concerned:
Please be very careful of Gene! He has admitted that he used to hurt his people but that now he has learned a different way! No words spoken about repentance and being broken hearted over what he had done, just that he had learned a different way. One can “learn a different way” and demonstrate different behavior but has the heart been changed by the Spirit of God or is it a tactic of control and manipulation?
There have been many dangerous and very wrong things happening at Kingsway under Gene’s “leadership” and oversight over the years. Just last Dec., Gene oversaw and ran a very ungodly meeting in Chesapeake. The “3 couples” who were trying to help the church in Chesapeake were basically called enemies of the church by Gene. This is actually minor compared with what has taken place in Kingsway, Gene’s church. CJ knows what has happened under Gene’s leadership over the years so one must ask: why is he still an “apostle” and pastor? Men have been removed from their positions within SGM for far less than what Gene has done.
Please be very careful when listening to anything that this man has to say. Can you say “wolf in sheep’s clothing”?
October 16th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Fred
Good point about Gene Emerson. Though it was encouraging to hear an SGM pastor (especially an “apostle”) actually admit he did something wrong etc. you make some good points. Just cause he did some admitting doesn’t mean that he has changed. His admitting some errors for a change was a direction in the right step but like you seem to indicate it is doubtful how far he will go on admitting past mistakes etc.
Thus don’t assume that there is a major change just because an “apostle” finally admits he made some mistakes.
Bethany
One other item to share with you though I am sure I have given you more of an answer than you asked for is what I noticed in Carolyn McCulley’s “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye” book. In the intro she talks about a group of single women embracing “kissing dating goodbye” and expressed shock that some years later most weren’t married. It apparently never occurs to her to ask if maybe the two are related such as a cause affect. That is maybe these women “kissing dating goodbye” and the problems it creates caused these women to at least temporarily kiss marriage goodbye.
Unfortunately like so many who embrace “kissing dating goodbye” is that they become so convinced that it is the superior alternative to dating that they become blind to the problems it creates. I have a blog entry that talks about this:
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009.....e-goodbye/
Hope this helps.
October 25th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Welcpme back Jim and Carol.
January 8th, 2010 at 12:59 am
Jim,
Anyway I can communicate with you offline?
January 8th, 2010 at 2:09 am
Gone for Good,
You can find Jim’s contact info by going to the About tab at the top right.
Blessings,
Hope
January 8th, 2010 at 7:44 am
Gone for Good-
jim@sgmrefuge.com
January 12th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
FriendlyFire – I am not sure you will get this, but its great read your post. SRC was one of the churches I attended. You were the SR Pastor when I was there, then suddenly Mickey was in control, then he left for NC then BB was in charge for a little while.
I wish I was there they day you returned for a visit. I am not sure we would have talked much; we never really did (my fault). But I wonder if we did talk that day you returned, would I have by chance learned the truth and left before the pain I had to endure. I was not a church that day, but I always wonder, if I had been more proactive in wanting to know the truth- how much pain would I have spared myself. Granted we were told to give you space and time to heal – but I have to wonder if that was to keep us from learning the real deal. Perhaps if we pursued the truth we would have experienced being removed by MC or who knows.
It can’t go in to all that happened to us. Though I too went though sleepless nights – thoughts of suicide – depression of a couple of years – I am sure what I experience is less than the pain you felt and still feel.
I wish you all the best,