(Listen to the audio)
(Listen to the audio)
If there are clear New Testament patterns regarding some aspects of church government, then there will be negative consequences in our churches if we disregard them, even if we cannot foresee all of those consequences at the present time.
— Wayne Grudem
July 14th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Thanks Jim—good stuff! When will part two come out?
July 14th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
errr…. soon?
July 18th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
OMG!!! Thank you, Jim, for adding this link. I have finally been able to listen to the George Barna interview, and immediately ordered the book. It will be good to read a researcher’s point of view on why people are leaving the institutional church. Some of what Mr. Barna says in the interview are what people are saying here! I urge everyone to take a few minutes to listen.
July 24th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I got Barna’s book and am half way through. It is an easy read. Some of the statistics he uses for the future of the church are astounding. I can’t even begin to review the book here, as it should be read to get the full “punch”. I will say that his estimation of how many people are leaving the institutional church for a deeper walk with Jesus is mind boggling.
The book is entitled “Revolution”, by George Barna. I hope some of you read it so we can have a discussion here.
July 25th, 2009 at 11:27 am
For those of you trying to make sense of what’s really “off” with SGM and why it’s so difficult to leave, do a little historical research. Go back to the days of Total Quality Management and understand the fourteen business principles of W. Edwards Deming. One of the most enduring of these principles is the pursuit of excellence.
A very interesting business management book was written by Toler and Nelson entitled the The Five Star Church that makes the case for a church that puts the pursuit of excellence at the top of its priorities; seeking to emulate a five star hotel.
In the book, a pastor seeks advice from a five star hotel manager for ways in which to make his church a “five star” church. Here’s a review of the book written by Greg Gilbert a pastor over at Capitol Hill Baptist in which he also refers to a PDI Leadership Conference he had attended.
A quote from page 19 of the book sums up the real goal of the Five Star Church; “Money tends to flow with people and people are attracted to organizations that are run with excellence and that are unabashedly committed [now a CJ phrase] to top quality customer service.”
Couple this concept with another concept articulated on page 20; “People rate churches on how they are treated and by what they see, hear and feel”; and you have the basic business model for SGM – and you don’t even have to buy the book!
If you’ve ever wondered why it is so hard to “check out of” SGM it could be due to the fact that you really do enjoy the “perks” that SGM provides or promises to provide. Perks are wonderful if you are staying at a resort, flying on an airplane or eating at an upscale restaurant; but where in the Bible are perks mentioned? Credit card companies have learned that perks are what draw people to their particular cards and the airline industry has adopted this practice as well. Do people stay in SGM churches because they don’t want to lose the perks SGM seems to offer? Do they fear that all the other churches in their community are not up to the standards that SGM has demanded of its churches; and so proudly boasts (the dearest place on earth)? Maybe so.
· If you had a serious illness would you check into a five star hotel or a hospital?
· If you were seeking a closer walk with God would you check into a five star hotel or look for a church in which the Holy Spirit was moving?
· Are SGM members actually customers of SGM?
· Are SGM churches really businesses masquerading as churches?
So many questions…………so little time.
N.S.L.B.
July 25th, 2009 at 11:47 am
Canary-
Barna’s book is good, as is Pagan Christianity, which he wrote with Frank Viola. Viola’s follow up to PC is Reimagining Church, which is worth the read. In chapter 7 he jumps on his “God’s Eternal Purpose” soapbox, which I find… off.
His follow up to RC will release September 1st, and promises to be a “how to” manual for the 5 million American Christians who have left the building. The title is Finding Organic Church, and will be available on Amazon.
I hope to find time to post on this topic, as I’m deeply concerned for those who have left SGM and have just traded one man made institution for another. My heart also breaks for those who have left SGM and have no fellowship at all.
We NEED the church, but most of us have no idea what it is.
July 25th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Quizzler-
You’ve hit on a fundamental reason why these buildings with professional ministers thrive-American consumerism.
July 25th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Amen to both Quizzler and Jim. American Christianized consumerism has poisoned much of what we call “church!” Even with that being true, the Lord Jesus continues to build His church. The machine, called “church,” will continue to grind away with better and better marketing schemes drawing people into itself and making them more and more dependant on the “holy men” than the HOLY ONE! Real Christian leaders point away from themselves to the New Covenant truth that Jesus is EVERYTHING, HE’S DONE it all and IT IS FINISHED–nothing left for our religious flesh to complete. That’s the Gospel of Grace. His life in me, spilling out to the world around me.
July 25th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Gratefully-
Amen right back at ya-every word.
July 25th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Jim,
I love to read Viola. What you were saying is true. We leave the institution, can’t stand the thought of going back to the way things were, yet don’t know where our place is in the Church today. That is very hard.
Barna speaks of different ways people are growing in the Lord that are adding to the “revolution” (not so sure what I feel about that word. It can carry with it a negative connotation). Two ways stuck out at me because that is where I am at present – the family and cyberspace. My family ministers and grows through each other. We are like our own little band of believers, reaching out to unbelievers where we can, supporting each other, and encouraging each to remain in the faith. The cyberspace thing has effected my faith by helping me to step out in trust again. That has been lifechanging. I believe the story of where we fit in to the Church has not been finished yet.
As far as reaching for excellence, I heard that a lot in SGM. To hear it spoken of again makes my stomach turn. The focus got so far off our God, and our living faith! I don’t like the feeling that those of us who were involved were manipulated without even knowing it by some of the mechanics Quizzler speaks of. It sure clarifies things, though.
I would say that, no matter where all who are reading today are in their present situation, whether in a church or out, the important thing to remember is that we are on a journey. We have left behind the old leaven and are seeking the Lord. We want to grow and deepen in our relationship with the Master. We want to be individual temples, as Jesus spoke of. How much stronger will we, the stones, be when eventually we become part of the larger framework of the temple. I must admit that I don’t even know what that will look like, yet. However, I am hopeful that my own personal journey will lead me straight to where Jesus intended all along.
Isn’t that what we all want for each other?