The Route 5:9 blog, a part of Peacemaker Ministries’ website recently made this announcement:
Exciting Announcement: Dave Harvey as a Keynote Speaker at our 2009 Conference
Someone sent me a link to the post, which had several comments which were not particularly flattering towards Dave Harvey or Sovereign Grace Ministries. I’ve received a few emails today, letting me know that the comments have been removed. Commenters were told that their comment section was not the appropriate forum to share their concerns, and were encouraged to call Peacemaker’s EVP. His name and phone number, with his personal extension were given.
Commenters were also told:
If you are interested in the type of counsel we give all the churches and church leaders that we work with, I invite you to read the following two articles by Ken Sande:
www.peacemaker.net/accountability
www.peacemaker.net/approachability
I’m a fan of Peacemaker Ministries, and would have loved to see them leave the comments up for all to view. I doubt that I read all the comments, as I was sent the link days ago, so I’m not sure what caused them to take them down. It’s their blog, and they have the right to do what they like. I’ve deleted comments, and explained to the commenter why I’ve done so.
I created this post because some of our guests have tried to post the email that was sent to commenters. It’s private communication, so I don’t want it on the blog. I don’t think it’s right, and doubt that it’s legal.
It should be of interest to Peacemakers that this post generated the comments that it did, as their blog doesn’t receive a lot of comments. At least one commenter referenced the SGM Wiki, which documents the account of one member of the church where Dave Harvey was the Sr pastor.
The irony is pretty thick.
My prayer and hope is that SGM leaders would receive the counsel given by Ken Sande in the articles referenced above.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Jim:
“I created this post because some of our guests have tried to post the email that was sent to commenters. It’s private communication, so I don’t want it on the blog. I don’t think it’s right, and doubt that it’s legal.”
Thanks once again for showing that you desire to run this blog with integrity and to not let it turn into a gossip forum.
Also I know that there is a former SGM person who now works for Peacemaker Ministries. I will not name this person on the blog butif you or perhaps others wanted to reach out to them privately to share concerns I could share their name with you.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
It was sad that they took the comments down. It will be interesting to see how open Peacemakers truly is to comments if people call the person listed in the email.
I do find it ironic that Dave Harvey is speaking for Peacemakers when he was one of the ring leaders in Debra Baker’s excommunication. If one reads the accounts on Wikapedia about this excommunication it doesn’t sound like it was done according to the Peacemaker rules.
Maybe this is another example of do as I say vs. doing as I do?
With all the dollars that I am sure SGM members and the group brings to Peacemakers, I am sure it would be an “inconvenient truth” for Peacemakers to discover there are problems within SGM. Thus it wouldn’t surprise me if this is/turns out to be a case of Peacemakers really not wanting to know the truth due to its inconvenience.
July 11th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Perhaps these comments will cause Peacemaker Ministries to run some “due diligence” research on SGM. That was what I asked them to do, in my comment on that blog post.
What about the possibility of handing-out flyers about SGM, Dave Harvey and Debra Baker’s excommunication, to those heading into the conference?
What about people writing letters to the editors of Christianity Today and Charisma magazines, asking them to investigate the goings-on at Chesapeake and other SGM churches?
What about skywriting “Surrender, C.J.” in the air, over the mothership on Muncaster Mill Road?
July 12th, 2009 at 12:48 am
KIS:
I think that handing out flyers would cause more trouble than it would solve and the DFW Hyatt where the conference is being held would probably ask or cause you to leave the premises.
However, your thought about writing to CT is intriguing because one of the events which really hastened change in Maranatha Campus Ministries was an article which appeared in CT in or around 1984 which was critical of MCM. You look can look this up on the wiki for MCM.
July 12th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Formersgmer,
The Editor of Charisma Magazine actually used to work right in the International Office of Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM) before its demise. In my opinion MCM abuses were not subtle at all; they were blatant and in your face. The Charisma editor is very aware of the abuses there. He also works with a ministry to abused women. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that he would be sympathetic and may investigate.
July 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Cost of Peacemaker conference featuring Dave Harvey: after May 31st, $299.00! WOW!
July 12th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
SGMsingle:
I remember the person you refer to who is now at Charisma. I think he was the editor of the Forerunner. I remember when the CT article first appeared. MCM leaders went an offensive frenzy to deny the allegations which first appeared but you are right there was nothing subtle about about the abuse of authority withing MCM.
However, just like SGM, there were some genuinely godly and caring pastors within MCM and I was fortunate to have one of them at my church and I talked with him about the abuses eight years ago when I reconnected with him and he let me know that a big of part of the problem within MCM were (1) pastors who were too young and ill or untrained for ministry and (2) Bob Weiner’s obsessive need for control amd his unrealistic and overzealous goals for MCM which were principally to have a church on ever major college campus by the year 2000. This is part of the reason MCM was always shaking church members down for money.
What finally produced change in Maranatha was a goup of pastors who came together and confronted Weiner regarding his sin.
So I think you are right that the person at Charisma probably would be sympathetic to concerns from former and current SGM members especially as they relate to my point one. As far as my point two, It is not directly correlative to SGM because CJ seems to be more subtle than Bob Weiner in how he directs the organization but other may differ in their view on this part.
In fact, this person may alread know part of the story about SGM because when Larry Tomczak started Christ the King church Charisma ran a cover story about Larry and I seemed to recall that there was a bit of the history about Larry’s departure in the article.
July 12th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
formersgmer
Listed below is what I posted on the SGMSurvivors blog. It also seems to explain the progression of Marantha Ministries to its collapse.
You indicated “What finally produced change in Maranatha was a goup of pastors who came together and confronted Weiner regarding his sin.” Perhaps a group of pastors in SGM will finally confront Mahaney on his sin. It will take a group to do it I am sure since one person questioning Mahaney would be like committing corporate suicide for the alone questioner.
Since we have been talking on this thread about the book “Good to Great” on this blog and how SGM surreptitiously used the book, it might be interesting to note the the author of this book has recently written another book called “How the Mighty Fall.” Business Week recently had an article that summarized this person’s book:
http://www.businessweek.com/ma.....786379.htm
The stages this author identifies in how a company fails are:
STAGE 1: HUBRIS (excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance) BORN OF SUCCESS
STAGE 2: UNDISCIPLINED PURSUIT OF MORE
STAGE 3: DENIAL OF RISK AND PERIL
STAGE 4: GRASPING FOR SALVATION
STAGE 5: CAPITULATION TO IRRELEVANCE OR DEATH
What is described in stage 1 certainly sounds like SGM: “Happiest place on earth.” C.J. Mahaney certainly doesn’t have a problem with self esteem etc. despite his having wrote a book on humility.
Stage 3 also sounds like where SGM is with what is being brought up on these blogs (their denial of what is reported to be going on).
I am not so sure I see or have read about stage 2 though the group has expanded quite a bit. Perhaps they have done that.
Maybe they are now at the point of “grasping for salvation” vs. trying to correct their root problems. People on the blog have commented that SGM Leadership is now doing what is the appearance of change vs. working to correct what appears to have caused a lot of their problems including their abusive culture. As people have commented their polity and lack of leader accountability the more one goes us leadership ladder (Mahaney is apparently accountable to no one) doesn’t appear to being addressed.
July 12th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Hey Jim, I was wondering what ever happened with the letter collection for the “Reformed big dog”. Did you get many letters? Did you ever send them on?
Would you considering asking the peacemaker people to read them as well? Just a thought. Its nice that they asked people to contact them directly with concerns. Maybe they could be an influence towards repentance?
Let’s all just keep praying…..
July 12th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
All:
I need to correct one point in my earlier post about the Charisma article on Larry Tomczak. I do not believe it was a cover story but rather just an update about Larry emerging into ministry again after years of “relative obscurity in SGM”. I think the latter is the correct phrase from the article. If so, interesting term I think. Perhaps Charisma is not a friendly forum for SGM.
July 12th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
I think it was funny that the person sending the e-mail from Peacemakers Ministry defending/covering/altering (whatever) abuse from Sovereign Grace Ministries was the PR person. That was funny to me..
When the crack in the foundation at my Sovereign Grace Ministries Church starting splitting Peacemakers was called, and guess what they did…they gave the person a price (a heafty one) to come out and try to help out. The person could not afford to pay for the problems fixed for eveyone hurting. Peacemakers, knowing the seriousness of situations never followed up.
I suggested that Sovereign Grace Ministries write a book called the unfinished Conflict, and take time to reevaluate the way the leadership has hurt and wounded others….it stayed up for 5 days…
July 13th, 2009 at 2:43 am
Formersgmer,
Yes, the guy I am thinking of was also editor of the Forerunner. He reports on Che A and Larry T but has remained mostly silent on SGM since Larry left. Reading between the lines would lead me to believe he may be suspicious of SGM.
You seem to know a lot about Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). I have found many former MCM members in SGM. I don’t know what it is about SGM, but it really attracts former MCMers.
By the way, for any fomer MCM members, there is a VERY interesting and detailed blog that chronicles the rise and fall of that ministry. The author pulls no punches and actually compares Bob W to that infamous German dictator from WWII. Here it is:
http://everynationexposed.blogspot.com/
Start reading the section caled “the hook, the line, the sinker”. That is the beginning chronologically.
July 13th, 2009 at 6:57 am
SGMsingle:
When I was a part of MCM I was deeply shocked and bewildered by the CT article when it first appeared because the allegations were so foreign to my experience to my experience in MCM up to that time primarily because my senior pastor was so different from those described in the article. He was and is a good pastor who really cared for the souls of the peope in the church. On the other hand, the allegations contained in the article were so over the top that if you thought objectively for a moment about them you realized the people could not make this stuff up even if they wanted to do so.
As far as the attraction of former MCMer’s to SGM. part of the attaction was that Larry Tomczak was well known, like and promoted within MCM and at the time that I was part of MCM both organizations were very similar in that they were both charismatic, both had young, college age or recent college graduate age membership, both were extremely missionary minded and both held up the idea of “fulfilling your destiny” Whatever that may have meant at the time.
Finally, I should add that there is one pastor at CLC whose wife is a former MCM person.
July 13th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Single:
The other reason for possible MCMer attraction to SGM is that the SGM church in knoxville is a former MCM church.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Not only was Larry popular in MCM, in the early years Larry made Bob Weiner popular at CLC. I think Bob spoke to the congregation at least once; at any rate, I remember having seen him there when Larry was there.
July 13th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
formersgmer,
Keepinstep,
Yes, there were some similarities. MCM called themselves “God’s Green Berets” and of course SGM was “People of Destiny”. Both titles conveyed uhhh …a sense of “mission”. Bob W did speak at CLC while he was leading MCM. There is at least one SGM pastor’s wife from MCM, and the entire Knoxville SGM church did originate from MCM. It would not surprise me if there were more connections.
Maybe a former MCMer like Lee G from Charisma would see the similarities and be willing to talk.
July 14th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Oops, looks like I ended the discussion. Was it what I said on July 13 2:43am above? See this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
July 14th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Single:
I have just been busy with my day job. I looked at the article about every nation. I had no idea that two of three founders of ENI were no longer in senior leadership.
July 14th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
SGM Single
I don’t think you ended the discussion.
I think a lot of groups have similar problems like Maranatha (MCM) had. This is when the group becomes controlled by one leader with little or no accountability and become a defacto “pope” of the group. With MCM it was Bob Weiner who was also the founder. With Calvary Chapel it was Chuck Smith who was also that group’s founder. With Sovereign Grace Ministries it is C.J. Mahaney who was cofounder and apparently forced out the other cofounder. I am sure there are other examples.
I am sure these men originally meant well and may have done the right thing for a number of years. Unfortunately, when the get in power and are unchecked for so long they loose sight of what is right and can become deceived.
July 15th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Steve240
Is there information on the internet about Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith???
July 15th, 2009 at 9:32 am
John
I am sure Jim can share some links. I believe on blog critical of what is going on in Calvary Chapel is Phoenix Preacher.
July 15th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Is Ron Luce connected to MCM or SGM/PDI in any way? I heard him speak and he used th”green beret” phrase quite abit….just wondering?
July 15th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Ron Luce heads up the youth conference called Aquire the Fire, just to clarify who I mean…
July 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Musicman,
It appears Luce speaks at events of Every Nation (MCM’s successor) and EN sends teens to Luce’s events. See these links:
http://www.factnet.org/discus/.....1178509725
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum.....php?t=6461
July 16th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Thanks for the info-I’ll check it out…
July 18th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Who is John Galt?
July 18th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Hey-
John Galt- a man who desires freedom instead of the bondage of those who would try to control your life by govenment or by mysticism (religion).
July 18th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Yes, I read the book, but I disagree with you in a sense. You are adding “religion”, which was never a part of the book, and no religious organization in this country can compare to how our government can control us. We can easily leave the “church”, not so easy with the government.
July 18th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Hey-
appreciate the comment. Actually, the word religion wasn’t used in Atlas Shrugged, she used the word mysticism and if you read the use of the word in context it is clear that she was talking about religion. this would be confirmed by he rpersonal writings as well.
One can always escape a government. What are you willing to do to be free of those who control you????
July 18th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
I guess the difference I see it that is that it is quite easy to walk away from a church and never attend another, thus removing religious control altogether. Leaving a government will force you to choose another one to live within. Know of any recent Constitutional Republics forming lately?
I can think of many instances in history, and current situations in which the only out from governmental control is death. I guess I don’t consider that as a viable option, although Patrick Henry did. I didn’t say it was impossible, only “not so easy” as religion (at least in this country where they are currently separated).
July 19th, 2009 at 1:29 am
Hey- That was a good clarification. Sorry i misread your intent!!
Still looking for that Constiututional Republic myself. Maybe we should start one!!!!
July 30th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
My wife and I were on the edge of divorce when we sat through Dave Harvey’s message, When Sinner’s Say “I DO”.
She had placed our marriage up as an Idol and since I was not the perfect Christian husband, her faith was shaken. She learned through Dave Harvey that only God was to be on the throne in her heart, and that husbands would fail, people would fail, it is only God who will never fail us. If we base our walk on how our marriage, job, etc are going then we have replaced the worship of God with the worship of an Idol.
We listen to it at least once a year, stopping it at places to talk with each other about areas where we are not loving each other.
A perfect companion to “When Sinners Say ‘I Do’” is “Sacred Marriage” by Gary Thomas. We celebrated our 23rd anniversary in June and plan on revisiting these two tools until one of us is no longer around.
July 30th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Gary Thomas rocks.
July 30th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Keep in step. I agree on the Thomas comment – how about the Subtitle of the book? “What if God designed Marriage to make us Holy and not Happy?”
We went through the book as a homegroup. One week we were having outrageous conflict while doing chapter 5 or 6, and it never got settled before we got to homegroup. As our homegroup leader started asking questions a silence descended on the room. No one spoke, and he finally said, “Besides my wife and I, did anyone else have any conflict while doing this chapter?” The room broke out into laughter because we were all guilty. He also wrote another fantastic book, “Seeking the Face of God”
July 30th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Seeking the Face of God is the one I’m more familiar with, having highlighted nearly every page and wept while reading it. It was one of several books the Holy Spirit led me to, when CLC pastors were being uncooperative at helping me go deeper in my walk with God — rather than just hunt-down and get depressed over sin. Thomas had walked my walk with God, just a few years before me.
Regarding the marriage book – I realized a few years into marriage that it, and raising children, were intended by God as a fast-track to maturity in Christ — if one is paying attention, that is. So glad you benefited from it, as well.
September 21st, 2009 at 8:08 pm
I posted several entries on the Peacemaker blog on their “Praising All Things CJ” and “Praising All Things SGM” pages when Noel’s story went public.
I stated that I had been in SGM, that my family and I had barely made it out of SGM alive, that I was giving first-hand accounts of what had happened to my family.
I gave the barest thumbnails of what had happened, but I gave them as first-hand accounts, and said that the pastors had abused me repeatedly and had not done Matthew 18.
Folks, I had a story very similar to “Esther” from Chesapeake.
I linked to SGMSurvivors and here.
All my several posts on Peacemaker’s blog were pulled, with no response from them. None. Zip.
There’s something so very wrong about my experience with the Peacemakers blog.
If this had been in business, I would wonder how much Peacemakers’ stock was owned by SGM.
I know Peacemakers has said online since then that their blog isn’t the place, but they didn’t lift one finger to help, either. Also, they did nothing when I had said (and many others have posted) that they had tried to go through Matthew 18 within SGM, but SGM didn’t play by those rules at all.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Beloved of God,
That you are. I am aware of someone who also contacted Peacemakers Ministry for horrible stories with hugh pastorial discrepancies and differences that hurt many…..
Um…they did nothing. As weak as I am spiritually, I am learning not to trust organizations…
I am very sorry for what happened to you and your family.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Beloved of God:
We share a similar experience in that I also tried to do the PM/Mt 18 process. I suggested Mt 18 to the area apostle; he agreed that that was the route to follow and the accusers were instructed as such; the accusers convinced the area apostle that the situation we were involved in was NOT Mt 18-appropriate. The process of conflict resolution fell apart. And I have most of the back-and-forth saved in email.
The area apostle, local pastor, and local leadership seemed either (a) uninformed about PM and Mt 18; (b) unwilling to follow Mt 18; (c) or a combination of (a) and (b). Sad.
Our confidence must not be in men or organizations. We must trust in the Lord our God.
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Charlie, I am so sorry to hear that. Yes, Christ is the solid rock, all other ground is sinking sand.
_
Newlywndd, I am so very, very sorry. May God bring you His Spirit and faithful, Christian friends to bear you up and bring you grace and peace, strength, and ongoing miracles of healing.
Oh God, please bind up the wounds of your people, and those who are not your people, brought by those in SGM and other such groups. Open blind eyes, set the captives free, bring the dead bones to life! Dead bones — LIVE!!! And please depose abusive and error-fraught leaders and fight against the teachings that bring misery, bondage and death. Root out the terrible error and twisted teachings and bring life-giving health-filled teachings to all. Be mighty in battle, we ask in Jesus’ mighty name!
I experienced pretty much the same thing in the North Denver church. SGM officially preaches Matthew 18 and Peacemakers’/biblical principles of conflict resolution, but their practice was of a TERRIBLY abusive and dysfunctional family.