Comments on: Current Discussion… http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/ a haven for castaways, a call for reform Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:07:56 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: FreeofSGM http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-14996 FreeofSGM Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:53:50 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-14996 I still keep in contact with some friends who currently attend Chesapeak. They follow the rule of making excuses for their leaders mistakes. When inquired about what happened over the last year, I was told "Young leaders tend to be heavy handed. So its to be expected." Sorry but I don't see that in the Bible !!!!! A couple of years ago the wife made a statement of disagreement with the "release" of a pastor. (This pastor was very loved by many I am told) The husband looked concerned. I said "Don't worry I won't turn you in". The wife laughed, but the husband was not amused.  She knew what I was getting at, but submitted to her husband's desire to stay at Chesapeak. I wish "heavy handed" attitudes were limited to Chesepeak but that is  not the case. I have heard of it from friends in MD/VA and FL affiliates I still keep in contact with some friends who currently attend Chesapeak.
They follow the rule of making excuses for their leaders mistakes.

When inquired about what happened over the last year, I was told “Young leaders tend to be heavy handed. So its to be expected.”

Sorry but I don’t see that in the Bible !!!!!

A couple of years ago the wife made a statement of disagreement with the “release” of a pastor. (This pastor was very loved by many I am told) The husband looked concerned. I said “Don’t worry I won’t turn you in”. The wife laughed, but the husband was not amused.  She knew what I was getting at, but submitted to her husband’s desire to stay at Chesapeak.

I wish “heavy handed” attitudes were limited to Chesepeak but that is  not the case. I have heard of it from friends in MD/VA and FL affiliates

]]> By: Square Peg http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12231 Square Peg Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:35:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12231 My comment was not meant in any way to minimize the horrific nature of Noel's situation or similar ones, just to explain that the "powers that be" did not seem to have a cover-up mentality when these problems happened in another church.  I cannot fathom why these issues were handled in such an illegal, immoral fashion, because it seems that after what our church went through, there might have been a policy put in place within PDI  to outline how such things should be handled in accordance with law and scripture.    Though I'm geographically far removed from the situation, and know nothing personally about the specific churches involved, I will continually pray.  A year or so ago, another ex-SGM'er and I talked cathartically at length about our own experiences, which are nowhere near the extremes I've read about on this site, but sad and painful in many ways.   It's comforting, yet sad,  to know that I'm not the only square peg.  Perhaps if folks at SGM remove the plastic masks and get real with each other in  non-controlling ways, real reform will happen.  Let's pray for it. Thanks. My comment was not meant in any way to minimize the horrific nature of Noel’s situation or similar ones, just to explain that the “powers that be” did not seem to have a cover-up mentality when these problems happened in another church.  I cannot fathom why these issues were handled in such an illegal, immoral fashion, because it seems that after what our church went through, there might have been a policy put in place within PDI  to outline how such things should be handled in accordance with law and scripture.

   Though I’m geographically far removed from the situation, and know nothing personally about the specific churches involved, I will continually pray.  A year or so ago, another ex-SGM’er and I talked cathartically at length about our own experiences, which are nowhere near the extremes I’ve read about on this site, but sad and painful in many ways.   It’s comforting, yet sad,  to know that I’m not the only square peg.  Perhaps if folks at SGM remove the plastic masks and get real with each other in  non-controlling ways, real reform will happen.  Let’s pray for it.

Thanks.

]]> By: cardinal http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12230 cardinal Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:05:44 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12230 Square peg, That was good to hear, sadly, that is not the way this issue is handled currently. There is another abuse story out of Fairfax, besides Noel's.....abuse....cover-up.... horrific treatment of the victim and family.....which continues today..... Square peg,
That was good to hear, sadly, that is not the way this issue is handled currently.
There is another abuse story out of Fairfax, besides Noel’s…..abuse….cover-up….
horrific treatment of the victim and family…..which continues today…..

]]> By: Steve240 http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12227 Steve240 Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:37:17 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12227 Square Peg Welcome to the sight.  You might want to go over to SGMSurvivors.com and read Noel's story.  Noel (not her real name) indicates that the 15 year old boy that molested her 3 year old daughter was observed working in children's ministry.  Allowing someone with that heinous of a past to work in children's ministry certainly isn't what I would call handling the situation properly. Also, if you read her account you will find where the 15 year old boy was never truly remorseful for what he did to this girl.  Partially due to this lack of remorse, Noel and her husband filed some type of brief to not allow this boy's record of being a molester hidden or purged  (whatever it was called).  Noel indicated that the SGM pastors wanted this boy's record purged and were mad at Noel and her husband for opposing this.  Reading Noel's account, it sure doesn't look like the pastors at the Fairfax Sovereign Grace Church handled this situation very well.  I would suggest you read her stories again.  http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276 http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=312 There is one other entry that talks about how bad a recent meeting with with Noel, her husband and SGM Fairfax pastors that I can't find.  Hope this helps you see what is going on. Square Peg

Welcome to the sight. 

You might want to go over to SGMSurvivors.com and read Noel’s story. 

Noel (not her real name) indicates that the 15 year old boy that molested her 3 year old daughter was observed working in children’s ministry.  Allowing someone with that heinous of a past to work in children’s ministry certainly isn’t what I would call handling the situation properly.

Also, if you read her account you will find where the 15 year old boy was never truly remorseful for what he did to this girl.  Partially due to this lack of remorse, Noel and her husband filed some type of brief to not allow this boy’s record of being a molester hidden or purged  (whatever it was called).  Noel indicated that the SGM pastors wanted this boy’s record purged and were mad at Noel and her husband for opposing this. 

Reading Noel’s account, it sure doesn’t look like the pastors at the Fairfax Sovereign Grace Church handled this situation very well. 

I would suggest you read her stories again. 

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=312

There is one other entry that talks about how bad a recent meeting with with Noel, her husband and SGM Fairfax pastors that I can’t find. 

Hope this helps you see what is going on.

]]> By: Square Peg http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12223 Square Peg Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:47:38 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12223 I've been reading your posts for the past two days, and there's much I'd like to say, but not quite yet.  One thing I would like to address is the discussion regarding Virginia law for reporting abuse.  In the mid to late 90's, there were three separate incidences of criminal sexual behavior within the membership of  a Virginia PDI church, although they did not happen on church property or in church activities.  All 3 were discovered by church members and/or leadership through reports from victims or confession by the criminal.  The leadership immediately contacted authorites, then contacted the congregation, and I remember the pastor explaining that once the crime/sin was confessed, "but of course" he had to report to authorities.  Whether he just <em>thought</em> he was required to, or if the law <em>actually</em> required it, I do not know, but I do know that he wanted to do the right thing.    One perpetrator went to jail for several months; his family moved to a different church immediately for the sake of the injured child.    The other two perpetrators are in prison for lengthy sentences, twenty years or more; one is likely  to die there.  There was never ANY implication of guilt or sin on the part of the victims, and it breaks my heart to read the accounts of those who were abused not just by sexual predators, but by leaders who should have served them with humility, love, and grace.  At the time, aghast that such unthinkable things had happened among Christians, not just once, but three times, I talked at length with a dear friend from a PCA church who was a Christian counselor and had a professional connection to one of the situations.   What she told me was an absolute shock -- that these horrific crimes are happening in churches of every persuasion at alarming rates.   "The difference is that YOUR church chose to handle it in the right way.  Most churches sweep it under the rug and the membership never knows it happened."  So, my disillusionment with SGM is with other issues, and I am thankful that at least in these 3 heartbreaking situations, the senior pastor and SGM handled things as well as could be expected at the time. I hesitated to make these comments,  wishing not to fan flames, but the incidents described are a matter of public record.  I no longer attend an SGM church, for mostly personal and a few theological reasons, though I absolutely love the stated concepts and vision for the church.  The last time I went to Celebration, the women of our "cell group" (a ridiculous name, along with many other strange terms and SGM jargon) agreed to wear nothing shorter than Capri pants due to the new modesty rules.   I wore short-shorts in the 98-degree 4th of July heat, made hotter by my sadness and anger that as we exercised the fabulous gift of freedom of religion, the Independence Day holiday was never even mentioned.         And when hearing of pastors removed from their positions because of the rebellion of a child, I'm mystified.  How do you measure rebellion?  If a third of heaven's  angels, who had the PERFECT FATHER, rebelled against Him, how can we expect an earthly father to do better?  Thank you -  From a square peg in the round hole of SGM,  a sinner saved by Grace, and a recipient of many great things from every flawed church I've been privileged to attend.     I’ve been reading your posts for the past two days, and there’s much I’d like to say, but not quite yet.  One thing I would like to address is the discussion regarding Virginia law for reporting abuse.  In the mid to late 90’s, there were three separate incidences of criminal sexual behavior within the membership of  a Virginia PDI church, although they did not happen on church property or in church activities.  All 3 were discovered by church members and/or leadership through reports from victims or confession by the criminal.  The leadership immediately contacted authorites, then contacted the congregation, and I remember the pastor explaining that once the crime/sin was confessed, “but of course” he had to report to authorities.  Whether he just thought he was required to, or if the law actually required it, I do not know, but I do know that he wanted to do the right thing.    One perpetrator went to jail for several months; his family moved to a different church immediately for the sake of the injured child.    The other two perpetrators are in prison for lengthy sentences, twenty years or more; one is likely  to die there.  There was never ANY implication of guilt or sin on the part of the victims, and it breaks my heart to read the accounts of those who were abused not just by sexual predators, but by leaders who should have served them with humility, love, and grace. 

At the time, aghast that such unthinkable things had happened among Christians, not just once, but three times, I talked at length with a dear friend from a PCA church who was a Christian counselor and had a professional connection to one of the situations.   What she told me was an absolute shock — that these horrific crimes are happening in churches of every persuasion at alarming rates.   “The difference is that YOUR church chose to handle it in the right way.  Most churches sweep it under the rug and the membership never knows it happened.” 

So, my disillusionment with SGM is with other issues, and I am thankful that at least in these 3 heartbreaking situations, the senior pastor and SGM handled things as well as could be expected at the time. I hesitated to make these comments,  wishing not to fan flames, but the incidents described are a matter of public record. 

I no longer attend an SGM church, for mostly personal and a few theological reasons, though I absolutely love the stated concepts and vision for the church.  The last time I went to Celebration, the women of our “cell group” (a ridiculous name, along with many other strange terms and SGM jargon) agreed to wear nothing shorter than Capri pants due to the new modesty rules.   I wore short-shorts in the 98-degree 4th of July heat, made hotter by my sadness and anger that as we exercised the fabulous gift of freedom of religion, the Independence Day holiday was never even mentioned.    
  
 And when hearing of pastors removed from their positions because of the rebellion of a child, I’m mystified.  How do you measure rebellion?  If a third of heaven’s  angels, who had the PERFECT FATHER, rebelled against Him, how can we expect an earthly father to do better? 

Thank you - 
From a square peg in the round hole of SGM,  a sinner saved by Grace, and a recipient of many great things from every flawed church I’ve been privileged to attend.

 
 

]]> By: Fred http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12093 Fred Wed, 22 Jul 2009 18:42:08 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12093 <strong>Standing By</strong>,  Please know that I will be praying for you.  This is all very hard on everyone - those who have left and those who are left behind.  Everyone has been wounded by all of the events of the last year.  (Actually because of the wrong doctrine, abuse, control, etc. people have been wounded for a very long time.)  I do believe with all my heart that God does not want us to stick our head in the sand but He wants His people to walk in truth, in the light and in understanding.  Sometimes that means we have to ask questions of many different people and even learn things that are not pleasant.  Certainly we must walk closely with God, trusting Holy Spirit to give us discernment and truth.   If we allow God to work in our lives through this it will all lead us closer to Him.  Remember, this has been God revealing things that have been hidden within SGCC and SGM for a long time.  This is His work but He does choose to use His people in the battle. You say that this particular pastor is <strong><em>mellowing out</em></strong>?  My hope would be to hear that he is a broken and contrite man, visibly repentant and changed, realizing the depth of his deception, sin and abusive pastoring, counseling, shepherding.  There are soooo many who have been abused by this man over many years.  Some have even told me that they thought they were going crazy because of the counsel that he gave them.  I would guess that he is scared out of his wits that he might still lose his job.  Recently I was told by reliable sources that he is still very controlling and not walking in grace and trusting God.  My question is really, why is he still a pastor in SGCC and why is he still counseling??  Why would he be over the 316 ministry with those precious children??? Know though that he is not the only pastor who has walked in abuse, control, deception, wrong doctrine, etc.  The others have as well.  Standing By,  Please know that I will be praying for you.  This is all very hard on everyone – those who have left and those who are left behind.  Everyone has been wounded by all of the events of the last year.  (Actually because of the wrong doctrine, abuse, control, etc. people have been wounded for a very long time.)  I do believe with all my heart that God does not want us to stick our head in the sand but He wants His people to walk in truth, in the light and in understanding.  Sometimes that means we have to ask questions of many different people and even learn things that are not pleasant.  Certainly we must walk closely with God, trusting Holy Spirit to give us discernment and truth.   If we allow God to work in our lives through this it will all lead us closer to Him.  Remember, this has been God revealing things that have been hidden within SGCC and SGM for a long time.  This is His work but He does choose to use His people in the battle.

You say that this particular pastor is mellowing out?  My hope would be to hear that he is a broken and contrite man, visibly repentant and changed, realizing the depth of his deception, sin and abusive pastoring, counseling, shepherding.  There are soooo many who have been abused by this man over many years.  Some have even told me that they thought they were going crazy because of the counsel that he gave them.  I would guess that he is scared out of his wits that he might still lose his job.  Recently I was told by reliable sources that he is still very controlling and not walking in grace and trusting God.  My question is really, why is he still a pastor in SGCC and why is he still counseling??  Why would he be over the 316 ministry with those precious children???

Know though that he is not the only pastor who has walked in abuse, control, deception, wrong doctrine, etc.  The others have as well. 

]]> By: Standing By http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12092 Standing By Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:58:16 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12092 <strong>Fred:</strong> Since EH hasn't been involved with the 316 ministry since he went to the PC I didn't even consider him as one of the pastors involved in the incidents described. I have heard from people, both still at SGCC and some who have left, that the 316 pastor for the past year has mellowed some from the experience, especially since the events at the end of last year.  This has not my experience with him at all but, since I rarely talk to him, I took their statements at face value until I had more information (which I now have, it appears). I had first thought that he was probably the source of the original issue but held out hope that the reports I had received that he was more gracious were true.  Since, as I said, I hadn't included EH in the group, I was thrown off by your use of the phrase "the youth pastor (over the 316 ministry)" in your 10:08 am post as I thought maybe, just maybe, there was a measurable heart change in at least one of the pastors - alas, this is not to be. As for talking to people who have left, I am trying to talk to as many as I can.  Unfortunately, my available time has not been enough to keep up with those exiting.  But I will continue to press on. As a final note, I have been reading this blog regularly, and occationally at Survivor, since the events at SGCC at the end of last year and have only recently decided to post.  I've sent a few emails to Jim on occasion before this but haven't added any to the ongoing discussions. Matt. 10:16 Fred:
Since EH hasn’t been involved with the 316 ministry since he went to the PC I didn’t even consider him as one of the pastors involved in the incidents described.

I have heard from people, both still at SGCC and some who have left, that the 316 pastor for the past year has mellowed some from the experience, especially since the events at the end of last year.  This has not my experience with him at all but, since I rarely talk to him, I took their statements at face value until I had more information (which I now have, it appears).

I had first thought that he was probably the source of the original issue but held out hope that the reports I had received that he was more gracious were true.  Since, as I said, I hadn’t included EH in the group, I was thrown off by your use of the phrase “the youth pastor (over the 316 ministry)” in your 10:08 am post as I thought maybe, just maybe, there was a measurable heart change in at least one of the pastors – alas, this is not to be.

As for talking to people who have left, I am trying to talk to as many as I can.  Unfortunately, my available time has not been enough to keep up with those exiting.  But I will continue to press on.

As a final note, I have been reading this blog regularly, and occationally at Survivor, since the events at SGCC at the end of last year and have only recently decided to post.  I’ve sent a few emails to Jim on occasion before this but haven’t added any to the ongoing discussions.

Matt. 10:16

]]> By: Fred http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12091 Fred Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:29:34 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12091 <strong>Standing By:  </strong>To find out the whole truth and more of a complete picture of what is going on within SGCC I encourage you to talk with your friends who have left SGCC in the last 6-7 mos.  Find out why they left.  You may be quite amazed.  I believe that you will find much insight and truth into what is really going on within SGCC.  Don't limit yourself to only talking with those still in SGCC including pastors.   Talking to the ones still in SGCC may not give you the whole picture. Standing By:  To find out the whole truth and more of a complete picture of what is going on within SGCC I encourage you to talk with your friends who have left SGCC in the last 6-7 mos.  Find out why they left.  You may be quite amazed.  I believe that you will find much insight and truth into what is really going on within SGCC.  Don’t limit yourself to only talking with those still in SGCC including pastors.   Talking to the ones still in SGCC may not give you the whole picture.

]]> By: Fred http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12090 Fred Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:22:07 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12090 HMM...Standing By, the 316 pastor that I am talking about who has walked in more grace and the Spirit is definitely not the one who graduated from Regent.  The one I am talking about is now the Sr. Pastor at SGCC, EH who used to be over the 316 ministry.  He just finished the PC.  The only pastor left at SGCC that has not attended Pastors' College and who graduated from Regent IS definitely known for harsh, abusive counsel and not walking in the Spirit, not having godly wisdom and discernment and was very involved with the abusive treatment of women and the whole fiasco that happened last Dec.  <strong>Standing By</strong>, I say this to you in love:  Glad to hear that you will ask questions! Please become informed and ask lots of questions because it appears from your comment that you know very little of what has really been going on in SGCC and that possibly you don't know your pastors well.  This is a dangerous place to be for yourself and if you have a family, for them as well. HMM…Standing By, the 316 pastor that I am talking about who has walked in more grace and the Spirit is definitely not the one who graduated from Regent.  The one I am talking about is now the Sr. Pastor at SGCC, EH who used to be over the 316 ministry.  He just finished the PC.  The only pastor left at SGCC that has not attended Pastors’ College and who graduated from Regent IS definitely known for harsh, abusive counsel and not walking in the Spirit, not having godly wisdom and discernment and was very involved with the abusive treatment of women and the whole fiasco that happened last Dec.  Standing By, I say this to you in love:  Glad to hear that you will ask questions! Please become informed and ask lots of questions because it appears from your comment that you know very little of what has really been going on in SGCC and that possibly you don’t know your pastors well.  This is a dangerous place to be for yourself and if you have a family, for them as well.

]]> By: Standing By http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12089 Standing By Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:09:22 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12089 <strong>Fred:</strong> Thanks for the additional information.  I was hoping for an answer similar to what you gave.  The 316 (youth) pastor at SGCC is now the only pastor there that hasn't attended the SGM PC (he graduated from Regent Univ.).  I'll do what I can to find out more. Fred:
Thanks for the additional information.  I was hoping for an answer similar to what you gave.  The 316 (youth) pastor at SGCC is now the only pastor there that hasn’t attended the SGM PC (he graduated from Regent Univ.).  I’ll do what I can to find out more.

]]> By: Fred http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12088 Fred Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:08:31 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12088 Standing By, I cannot tell you if every pastor was involved or not. I can tell you that the youth pastor (over the 316 ministry) walked in more grace and more of the Spirit than any of the other pastors there.  Was he involved in this type of harsh interview? I do not know but if you are "standing by" in SGCC, ask him. I wonder, do the pastors in SGM have a "script" which they now follow in these interviews since this is not just in SGCC?  Standing By,
I cannot tell you if every pastor was involved or not. I can tell you that the youth pastor (over the 316 ministry) walked in more grace and more of the Spirit than any of the other pastors there.  Was he involved in this type of harsh interview? I do not know but if you are “standing by” in SGCC, ask him.

I wonder, do the pastors in SGM have a “script” which they now follow in these interviews since this is not just in SGCC? 

]]> By: Walking Wounded http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12087 Walking Wounded Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:41:15 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12087 Just as an FYI:  The interviews were not limited to Chesapeake.  Our church did them as well.  I don't know of anyone who was rejected though. Just as an FYI:  The interviews were not limited to Chesapeake.  Our church did them as well.  I don’t know of anyone who was rejected though.

]]> By: Standing By http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12085 Standing By Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:09:17 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12085 <strong>Fred:</strong> I have a question about your <a href="http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/#comment-12051" rel="nofollow">July 18th, 2009 at 1:57 pm</a> post:  I gather from your statement that more than one pastor was involved in the interviews but I'm wondering if the pastor overseeing the youth ministry at SGCC was the primary interviewer.  Possibly even the one who was much harsher than necessary.  Do you have any idea? Fred:
I have a question about your July 18th, 2009 at 1:57 pm post:  I gather from your statement that more than one pastor was involved in the interviews but I’m wondering if the pastor overseeing the youth ministry at SGCC was the primary interviewer.  Possibly even the one who was much harsher than necessary.  Do you have any idea?

]]> By: Canary http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12079 Canary Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:33:59 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12079 Hi guys, I don't know what I would do without the Holy Spirit.  He is my comforter and advocate.  With Him, I am never alone.  Jesus knew when He sent His Spirit that we would need that comfort and guidance.  I am very sorry for the sgm folks who are being taught to rely on men for something only God can give.  Hi guys,

I don’t know what I would do without the Holy Spirit.  He is my comforter and advocate.  With Him, I am never alone.  Jesus knew when He sent His Spirit that we would need that comfort and guidance.  I am very sorry for the sgm folks who are being taught to rely on men for something only God can give. 

]]> By: Fred http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12078 Fred Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:34:07 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12078 Quizzler and Gracie, Great posts!  Thanks Quizzler for the great Scripture references.  Jeff Puswell and CJ have gotten it really wrong and they have sent these pastors down the wrong road.  Sadly, these young men (pastors) have chosen to believe tht they are standing in the very place of God.  Quizzler and Gracie, Great posts!  Thanks Quizzler for the great Scripture references.  Jeff Puswell and CJ have gotten it really wrong and they have sent these pastors down the wrong road.  Sadly, these young men (pastors) have chosen to believe tht they are standing in the very place of God. 

]]> By: Gracie http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12077 Gracie Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:40:35 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12077 Amen, Quizzler!  What a wonderful article.  Never again will I allow a mere man, no matter how "gifted" or "doctrinally sound," to stand between my Lord and me.  Jesus paid too high a price so I could have personal dignity and value and an intimate relationship with Him.  I will not insult Him by turning it over to anyone else.  This is where I get really riled up.  CLEARLY, this "stead of God" concept, as SGM has incorporated it, is not New Testament Christianity.  Amen, Quizzler!  What a wonderful article.  Never again will I allow a mere man, no matter how “gifted” or “doctrinally sound,” to stand between my Lord and me.  Jesus paid too high a price so I could have personal dignity and value and an intimate relationship with Him.  I will not insult Him by turning it over to anyone else.  This is where I get really riled up.  CLEARLY, this “stead of God” concept, as SGM has incorporated it, is not New Testament Christianity. 

]]> By: The Quizzler http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12076 The Quizzler Tue, 21 Jul 2009 02:10:57 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12076 <strong>The entire premise of “Standing in the stead of God” is man-centered and arrogant.  </strong>This is at the very heart of SGM’s view of man’s relationship with God, and explains their belief concerning the inability of others (the Sheep) to hear directly from God.     Instead of seeking man’s view of what God says, we need to go to God’s word directly to discover what He has to say; then rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding His Word.   <em>“God speaks primarily through the Scriptures (Ps. 119:105; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).</em> <em>Jesus’ point of reference was always the Word of God (Mt. 4:1-11; 9:13; 22:29;</em> <em>Lk. 10:26). The apostles and the early church continually looked to Scripture for</em> <em>guidance and understanding (Acts 1:20; 2:16-21; 4:11, 24-26; 15:15-19)”. <strong>*</strong></em> <strong> </strong> Here are a couple of examples in which Scripture is very specific as to whom we should be listening: <strong> </strong> <strong>Jeremiah 7:23 </strong> But this thing I did command them: Listen to and obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you will be my people; and walk in the whole way that I command you, that it may be well with you. <strong>Deuteronomy 28:1 </strong> If you will listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God, being watchful to do all His commandments which I command you this day the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.   In addition, Scripture attests that…………….   God can speak to us through dreams God can speak to us through visions God can speak to us through angels God can speak to us through an audible voice God can speak to us through a still, small voice God can speak to us through direct personal revelation   And yes, God can speak to us through others; but there are certain things we must keep in mind when others communicate their view of the mind of God to us.  Here’s a “litmus test” for us all to apply to any message we hear proclaimed by man as it relates to God’s mind or will:   <em>“1. Does the message agree with the truths of the Word and the principles of the</em> <em>Scriptures? (Is. 8:19-20)</em> <em>2. Does the word exalt Jesus? (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Jn. 4:1-3; Rev. 19:10)</em> <em>3. Does the Spirit bear witness within you? (1 Jn. 2:26-27)</em> <em>4. Does the message draw you into a deeper relationship with the Lord? (Deut.</em> <em>13:1-4; Rev. 22:8-9)</em> <em>5. Is the message given in a good spirit - out of care and concern? (1 Cor. 13:2)</em> <em>6. Does the message have a healthy effect/impact on you? Are you edified,</em> <em>exhorted, and comforted or do you end up confused, condemned,</em> <em>frightened, distressed, and uncertain? (1 Cor. 14:3-4)</em> <em>7. Do other godly believers agree with it? (1 Cor. 14:29; 2 Cor. 13:1)</em> <em>8. Does the speaker lead a godly life? (Jer. 23:14; Mt. 7:15-16)” </em><strong><em>* </em></strong> <em>*From the article “<a href="http://www.lifefellowship.org.in/Images/GUIDANCE-%20Hearing%20God's%20Voice.pdf" rel="nofollow">Hearing God’s Voice</a>”   </em> No man stands in the stead of God.    No man stands between other men and God.     N.S.L.B.    The entire premise of “Standing in the stead of God” is man-centered and arrogant. 

This is at the very heart of SGM’s view of man’s relationship with God, and explains their belief concerning the inability of others (the Sheep) to hear directly from God.  
 
Instead of seeking man’s view of what God says, we need to go to God’s word directly to discover what He has to say; then rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us in understanding His Word.
 
“God speaks primarily through the Scriptures (Ps. 119:105; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Jesus’ point of reference was always the Word of God (Mt. 4:1-11; 9:13; 22:29;
Lk. 10:26). The apostles and the early church continually looked to Scripture for
guidance and understanding (Acts 1:20; 2:16-21; 4:11, 24-26; 15:15-19)”. *
 
Here are a couple of examples in which Scripture is very specific as to whom we should be listening:
 
Jeremiah 7:23  But this thing I did command them: Listen to and obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you will be my people; and walk in the whole way that I command you, that it may be well with you.

Deuteronomy 28:1  If you will listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God, being watchful to do all His commandments which I command you this day the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
 
In addition, Scripture attests that…………….
 
God can speak to us through dreams
God can speak to us through visions
God can speak to us through angels
God can speak to us through an audible voice
God can speak to us through a still, small voice
God can speak to us through direct personal revelation
 
And yes, God can speak to us through others; but there are certain things we must keep in mind when others communicate their view of the mind of God to us.  Here’s a “litmus test” for us all to apply to any message we hear proclaimed by man as it relates to God’s mind or will:
 
“1. Does the message agree with the truths of the Word and the principles of the
Scriptures? (Is. 8:19-20)
2. Does the word exalt Jesus? (1 Cor. 12:3; 1 Jn. 4:1-3; Rev. 19:10)
3. Does the Spirit bear witness within you? (1 Jn. 2:26-27)
4. Does the message draw you into a deeper relationship with the Lord? (Deut.
13:1-4; Rev. 22:8-9)
5. Is the message given in a good spirit – out of care and concern? (1 Cor. 13:2)
6. Does the message have a healthy effect/impact on you? Are you edified,
exhorted, and comforted or do you end up confused, condemned,
frightened, distressed, and uncertain? (1 Cor. 14:3-4)
7. Do other godly believers agree with it? (1 Cor. 14:29; 2 Cor. 13:1)
8. Does the speaker lead a godly life? (Jer. 23:14; Mt. 7:15-16)” *

*From the article “Hearing God’s Voice”  

No man stands in the stead of God. 
 
No man stands between other men and God.
 
 
N.S.L.B.
  

]]> By: Jim http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12074 Jim Mon, 20 Jul 2009 18:03:03 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12074 Hope, Well done! Thank you for bringing us the original context and including the portions edited out by SGM. It’s important to remember context as we read CJ’s blog as well. I stopped reading months ago, but here are a couple of highlights. <a href="../../../../2008/07/01/more-responsibilities-of-the-sheep/" rel="nofollow">More responsibilities of the sheep.</a> <a href="../../../../2008/08/06/the-fruit-of-good-pastoring/" rel="nofollow">The fruit of good pastoring.</a> It’s not hard to see CJ’s focus. Hope,

Well done! Thank you for bringing us the original context and including the portions edited out by SGM.

It’s important to remember context as we read CJ’s blog as well. I stopped reading months ago, but here are a couple of highlights.

More responsibilities of the sheep.

The fruit of good pastoring.

It’s not hard to see CJ’s focus.

]]> By: MiMi http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12073 MiMi Mon, 20 Jul 2009 16:33:56 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12073 <em>If I am not mistaken, after reading Purswell's commentary, there seems to be NO room at all for the Holy Spirit in a believers life.  His references (not biblically but historically) in his "speech" refer to the "ancient" times.  There seems to be little reference, if any at all, to the desires of JESUS for us to seek the Comforter in our lives.  The Holy Spirit was given to us by JESUS himself to be that "voice" to us to teach us and guide us. If what Purswell states is true...what a fickle god we serve.  His meanings and instruction seems to change from generation to generation; from denomination to denomination. NO thank you.. I will continue to follow the true voice in the "stead of GOD".  For me that is GOD HIMSELF in the form of the HOLY SPIRIT.....</em> If I am not mistaken, after reading Purswell’s commentary, there seems to be NO room at all for the Holy Spirit in a believers life.  His references (not biblically but historically) in his “speech” refer to the “ancient” times.  There seems to be little reference, if any at all, to the desires of JESUS for us to seek the Comforter in our lives.  The Holy Spirit was given to us by JESUS himself to be that “voice” to us to teach us and guide us.

If what Purswell states is true…what a fickle god we serve.  His meanings and instruction seems to change from generation to generation; from denomination to denomination.

NO thank you.. I will continue to follow the true voice in the “stead of GOD”.  For me that is GOD HIMSELF in the form of the HOLY SPIRIT…..

]]> By: Hope http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/06/27/current-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-12072 Hope Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:18:09 +0000 http://sgmrefuge.com/?p=280#comment-12072 This is how the reference from The Preacher and Preaching (<em>Why Preach?</em> JI Packer,) appears in the SG article from the link above: <em>Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes, God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers.…Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son.…That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.</em> This is the entire section of that which was referenced from the book (text in bold was omitted from the quote) : <em>Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes, <strong>Now the Bible makes it appear that</strong> God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers <strong>by being made God's spokesmen and mouthpieces for His message, the messengers become emblems, models and embodiments of God's personal address to each of their hearers, and by their own commitment to the message they bring, they become models also of personal response to that address. </strong>Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, <strong>the incarnate Son who has been well described as being both God for man and man for God.</strong> That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand. </em> This is how the reference from The Preacher and Preaching (Why Preach? JI Packer,) appears in the SG article from the link above:

Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes,

God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers.…Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son.…That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.

This is the entire section of that which was referenced from the book (text in bold was omitted from the quote) :

Listen to this quote from a classic essay on preaching by J.I. Packer in The Preacher and Preaching. Packer writes,

Now the Bible makes it appear that God’s standard way of securing and maintaining His person-to-person communication with us His human creatures is through the agency of persons whom He sends to us as His messengers by being made God’s spokesmen and mouthpieces for His message, the messengers become emblems, models and embodiments of God’s personal address to each of their hearers, and by their own commitment to the message they bring, they become models also of personal response to that address. Such were the prophets and apostles, and such supremely was Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son who has been well described as being both God for man and man for God. That is the succession in which preachers today are called to stand.

]]>