I’m the kind of girl that enjoys a healthy, friendly debate. The back and forth, exchanging thoughts and ideas that I hadn’t thought of before… I’ve even been known to change my views when presented with facts or truth that I hadn’t seen before or considered. Or “agreeing to disagree” when I haven’t been persuaded. This is a good thing, as none of us are 100% right all the time, and we don’t know all there is to know on every subject.
To hear other ideas and convictions and to think on them, to ponder them, to study Scripture and search for truth strengthens our biblical foundation… this helps us to know what we believe about God and why we believe it.
There has been much debate regarding sending letters to CJ.
I want to state right up front that I understand both sides of this discussion. Every one of us are in different situations, different circumstances, that cause us to fall on one side or the other. God has a plan for each of us, and those plans are as diverse and as unique as we are.
I have stated this over and over, but will state it again here…
No one is under any obligation to share your account with CJ.
This is not a “one size fits all” endeavor. I fully understand the myriad of reasons why some would be opposed to participating. And, frankly, I agree with many of those reasons. Jim and I have no desire to try to talk you into changing your mind.
Then there are those that want to “tell it to CJ.” I understand this line of reasoning, as well.
The bottom line here is that you either want to take part or you don’t. No pressure, no worries. There’s no right or wrong here.
I would ask that each of you prayerfully consider what God would have you do and follow His direction for you.
Something I do want to clarify is that this opportunity to “tell it to CJ” is not to be confused with calling for and expecting this to lead to reform within SGM.
I posted this on Survivors:
“I am certainly not brimming with a “rainbows and butterflies” mentality… I’m not so deluded as to believe that “if only CJ was made aware, then everything will be okay.” (Most of you already know my thoughts on THAT!)
I don’t know what CJ and SGM will do with this. But since the offer was made to us, we felt it would only be right to throw it out there and let everyone make up their own minds as to what they want to do.
I have to reiterate here… I have no expectations of this changing anything within SGM or the way they do business. I certainly have no grandiose thoughts that it will cause reform within SGM. (My opinion leans more toward this being more cathartic than anything else.)
I DO think it’s a good thing that there are many people watching, and there are some even looking over CJ’s shoulder to see how he responds. Do I think this is gonna change SGM? Cause them to do the right thing? Treat their members in a godly manner? Cause them to chuck their authoritarian views? Re-vamp their governmental structure? My views, my hopes, don’t depend on CJ or his leaders/pastors. They are mere men, not any more special than anyone else. They also have a pretty bad track record.
But I do have hope and faith in a very big God.”
I must state this again:
Our hope for change and reform in SGM rests solely and completely in God and in His hands alone. If our faith rested in the hands of men, well… there would be no hope.
I continue to pray for SGM, for the leaders and pastors that are at the helm of this organization, those that make decisions and those that enforce them. I pray that God would move on their hearts, that they would see the damage that has wreaked havoc, not only in our lives, but in their “family of churches.” They must, at some point, stand up and take notice that they have ventured off the path and are way out in the weeds…
God can, and does, lead His children back to Him, back to truth. While I don’t know what that looks like for SGM, they are our brothers and our sisters… it’s in wanting the best for my fellow Christians that keeps me on my knees and brings hope and faith that there is nothing too big for God. He can move mountains, He can calm the seas… He is the Creator of the universe!
No, there is nothing too big or too hard for God.
Not even SGM.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:38 am
I’d like to restate that while open discussion is a good thing, all of the details of this project cannot be discussed online.
If you have a question that has not been answered online or if you would like to participate, please send me an email.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
June 11th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Carole….
Thank you, your faith is inspiring.
xoxo
June 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Carole,
BRAVO!!! Standing ovation, lasting a whole hour, out of true gratitude. Great post!:)
June 12th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Carole, thank you for saying this:
No, there is nothing too big or too hard for God.
Your faith and trust is a marvel to me at a time when I am faltering. On the other thread I was commenting on the transformational power of Jesus Christ. I would find it so incredibly encouraging to my faith to see repentance on the part of church leaders without regard to prestige or fallout, accompanied by an urgency to restore those who were harmed. This is something only God could do and would demonstrate the reality of our living Lord.
June 13th, 2009 at 12:31 am
A week or two ago, I said that I would be writing a letter to CJ but have now changed my mind. CJ as well as other leaders have already heard from me via emails as they have from many others. CJ knows very well Esther/Sylvia’s story and others. Have these women personally heard from CJ? No, they have not. I do believe that the couple from Fairfax had a personal meeting with him but what about the many others? Why is this? How could he know of the terrible abuses and have not already contacted these people personally? Why has he not picked up the telephone and called Sylvia and others and said, “I am so very sorry!” What kind of leader, what kind of man would continue to ignore the abuses that have gone on in his churches by men that he has personally trained? His leaders and pastors would say to us that he is not ignoring it but what evidence do we have of this? Many emails containing information of a very serious nature – control and abuse in his churches have been sent to him along with other “leaders” . CJ has had many opportunities to respond but he has not.
After considering this and the fact that these blogs have been operating for months, I now believe that this new request for letters is a ploy: a ploy to stop the blogs and to deceive folks into thinking he really cares. If he truly cared, why would he be asking for letters at this late date? He could have personally responded months ago when all of the abuse, control, etc. became public. It is very obvious that there are many hurting and wounded people on these blogs. If he really cared, wouldn’t CJ have personally written on the blogs and already told everyone how sorry he was that they have been hurt in his churches? Wouldn’t he tell us that he is doing all that he can to correct the problems IMMEDIATELY. He is very capable of writing on these blogs and speaking to all those reading. This would be up front and personal and would demonstrate true humility. What does he have to lose by coming on the blogs? What does he have to lose by calling Jim on the phone?
Why is it so difficult for so called ”men of God”, CJ, Dave Harvey, and others in positions of leadership to be able to determine, to be able to see for themselves the serious problems in their churches? They have certainly heard from enough people that there are very serious problems and exactly the nature of these problems. Also, I must ask, why are they not hearing from God for themselves? Why are they not able to read the blogs and hear the hearts of the people with godly wisdom and discernment? Men and women who are moving in the Spirit of God do not ALWAYS have to learn new ways from others because they can read the Word and discern for themselves what is right and what is wrong. Folks, something is very wrong when the leaders of a movement such as this cannot hear God and do the right thing. It is not about learning a new way. It is about a change in the very heart of these men and that can only occur through the Spirit of God moving in their hearts bringing forth conviction, repentance and transformation. At this point, I do not think that reform is the correct term.
A rebuilding of the very foundation of this movement must occur in order for SGM to be a group of churches preaching, teaching, and exemplifying Jesus Christ. At this point, nothing less will suffice and it will and can only occur through the power of God. Is this possible? Absolutely! Would SGM look the same? Absolutely not!
June 13th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Is there nothing to hard for our God?
He is jealous for his church, his Bride.
Stand and see the deliverance of the Lord. Now, or later, here or at Judgment Day, he WILL have all his HOLY WILL accomplished.
Jim, Carole–thanks so much for this blog!
Blessings….
June 13th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Fred- I was under the impresssion that we were writing these letters to a “Reformed Big Dog” ( RBD) who had agreed to read them all and then approach SGM, as a second step in Matthew 18 ( take one or two with you). I thought the assumption was that going to CJ in private had already not gotten anywhere, which is why we were moving to this stage.
I hope you will at least allow Jim to send the RBD the post you just wrote above with your full name on it, because what you just wrote above is exactly what the RBD needs to hear.
In 2 Samuel 21, David went before the Lord after three years of famine. God said it was because Saul had broken his vows to the Gibeonites and his bloodguilt had not been made right. Instead of protecting the Gibeonites as Israel had vowed to do, he attacked and harmed them. David had to step up and find out what he had to do to make things right with the Gibeonites. David was not personally responsible for what King Saul did, but as King of Israel God held him responsible for a wrong that had been done by the leadership of Israel, and he had to atone for it. ( He gave the Gibeonites some of Saul’s sons and they were put to death). I think the parallel is obvious. The SGM King needs to step up and take responsibility for the guilt of his kingdom.
June 13th, 2009 at 11:11 am
The issue to date hasn’t been whether anything is impossible for God, but whether anything is possible for God when his people refuse to listen to, and obey, him. Up to this point, the attitude of SGM leadership — as expressed by their actions — has been an illustration of Atty. Gen. John Mitchell’s quip, “When the tough get going, the going gets tough.”
When SGM leadership truly *decide* to answer the knock-knock-knocking of Jesus on their hearts’ doors, then reform will be possible for God to accomplish. Not until, however. Despite the halo-burnishing occasioned by the book titled “Humility,” the problem is a type of pride so entrenched it will take God’s bulldozer — to use a Mahaney illustration (ca.1976) — to dig up and destroy its root.
Praying for that bulldozer to go deep….
June 13th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Fred, you said: “CJ as well as other leaders have already heard from me via emails as they have from many others. CJ knows very well Esther/Sylvia’s story and others. Have these women personally heard from CJ? No, they have not. I do believe that the couple from Fairfax had a personal meeting with him but what about the many others? Why is this? How could he know of the terrible abuses and have not already contacted these people personally? Why has he not picked up the telephone and called Sylvia and others and said, “I am so very sorry!” What kind of leader, what kind of man would continue to ignore the abuses that have gone on in his churches by men that he has personally trained? His leaders and pastors would say to us that he is not ignoring it but what evidence do we have of this? Many emails containing information of a very serious nature – control and abuse in his churches have been sent to him along with other “leaders” . CJ has had many opportunities to respond but he has not. “
This would be one of those “reasons” I alluded to in my post when I stated: “I fully understand the myriad of reasons why some would be opposed to participating. And, frankly, I agree with many of those reasons.”
CJ and many of his leaders/pastors are fully aware of specific situations of their authoritarian abuse that was meted out on their members. It would bring much more hope to this “SGM situation” if CJ made the first move in making things right with those people he is aware of.
And as far as his opposition to anonymous accounts… what I find interesting is this: There are enough details in many of these accounts that would make it pretty simple to figure out who the pastor/leader/apostle is. Many of us have figured out who is being spoken of, and we certainly don’t know these leaders like CJ does. It wouldn’t take much effort on CJ’s part to investigate from his end and get to the bottom of the mess and work it out.
Yep, it would be a lot more hopeful and helpful if CJ was leading the charge!
Having said that, if God has laid it on your heart to write a letter to CJ, I encourage you to do so. You never know what God will do…
June 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
5 Years… the documents will be emailed directly to CJ. The RBD will be cc’d on the emails. They will both receive the emails at the same time, with full knowledge that the other has received them, as well.
June 13th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Jim,
On the Healing Journey said:
Thank you for all that you are doing to help ex-SGMers.
And I will also say a big thank you for all you are doing to help those of us still in SGM. The sacrifices you & Carole have made over the last two years is SO appreciated. I’m sure most of us will never know the great extent of it all, and what it’s cost you. We just all thank God for you.
To see you speak of hope gives me renewed hope, too. I’m thinking of the passage in Romans 5:3-5 particularly that “hope does not disappoint.”
In His grace,
P.D.
protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
June 13th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Jim,
I’ve been sitting back and watching (reading) everything on your blog and the other site for the past six months or so (believe me … MANY people across SGM are doing the same!). The stories I have read have been similar to those that I have experienced , have witnessed or have been told of by others. I’ve been a part of SGM now for 16 years. I’ve been through it all. To be as honest as I can possibly be, I HAVE seen a change in the leaders over the past 3-4 years at our church. I am hoping that godly change will continue to happen across the entire ministry.
Personally I believe that the pastors who have sinned against their sheep should seek them out and individually ask for forgiveness. I also believe that the SGM leaders should come out and repent for, minimally, their lack of leadership in teaching their leaders how to act in a godly manner with their churches (many will say, and I might tend to agree, that the SGM leaders WERE the reason why the others were allowed to act the way they did … I wouldn’t disagree with that), and repent for allowing controlling/ungodly/unrepentant men remain over their churches.
If I can I will give you what I consider the biggest issues that I have experienced at my SG church as well as with others … here they are:
1) The practically complete dismissing of the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church. When SGM moved to a reformed theology I KNEW that we would go down the path of becoming a presbyterian-like movement (and I was right!). The move deminished the role that the Holy Spirit plays in each of our lives and in the lives of the pastors that led the churches. Leaders were selected on their ability to teach and speak … Not in whether or not they were living a spirit-filled life on a daily basis.
2) Totalitarian leadership (lack of humility). What I says goes. If you don’t follow us then you are in sin (especially in the grey areas … I’m not talking about black & white). Also, don’t question my leadership … I know what is best. Oh, by the way, my family is always right as well since they are the example for everyone to follow. Don’t question them either. (i apologize for the sarcasm … some hurt there still).
3) Lordship over the flock versus Serving the flock. Maybe this falls under the humility area but I thought it deserved its own number … I don’t have enough toes and fingers in our church to count the number of times that I’ve seen this occur. I keep going back to see how Jesus acted when He was here on earth in the flesh. He never demaned ANYONE to change. He cared for them. He strove for them. He takled to them in a loving and caring way. He died for them … and me. Shouldn’t a pastor and their team follow the example that Jesus gave us?
That’s it for now. I will be praying for you and SGM.
Mike
June 13th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Hi Mike,
Welcome, and thank you for commenting.
You said-Shouldn’t a pastor and their team follow the example that Jesus gave us?
My prayer would be that pastors would ask themselves that very question.
June 13th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Jim and Carole, I too want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your love, care, devotion to God’s people, and for your faithfulness to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I know that God is keeping a record of every hour, minute, second that you both have spent ministering to His sheep through this blog, through the phone, through emails, through prayer, through meetings, etc. You both are good and faithful servants! I pray that today, Abba Daddy through the blood of Jesus and the comfort and power of the Holy Spirit refreshes you both, encourages your hearts and ministers to your hurts and wounds. We have an awesome God who is restoring each of us, pouring Living Water into our weary souls, healing us, giving us the abundant life He promises and changing us more and more into His image everyday. Praise His Holy Name!
Mike, You said, “To be as honest as I can possibly be, I HAVE seen a change in the leaders over the past 3-4 years at our church. I am hoping that godly change will continue to happen across the entire ministry.”
I must respond: To be as honest as I can possibly be, there was also a change in the leaders in my former SGM church over the past 3-4 years and it was TERRIBLE. The abuse, manipulation, control, poor teaching, etc. really flourished and then POW, it exploded or should I say imploded.
I am thankful to hear that you have seen positive change. May this be so in the very foundation of SGM. As I have stated before, this can only happen through the power of God – conviction, repentance, and transformation.
June 13th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
In my earlier comment I said: “CJ and many of his leaders/pastors are fully aware of specific situations of their authoritarian abuse that was meted out on their members. It would bring much more hope to this “SGM situation” if CJ made the first move in making things right with those people he is aware of.”
I should have added that ALL SGM leaders who have acted in an un-Christlike manner towards others should be running to make things right… and CJ, as the head of the SGM organization, should make sure they do.
June 15th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Mike,
You, and others like you, are why some of us keep going on this blog. We just couldn’t NOT report the behavior of SG leaders, or our own experiences, because of the saints still in the SGM machine. How can we enjoy our freedom in Christ, while so many remain in the system we escaped from?
Thank you so much for posting. I hope you continue to share your thoughts.
June 26th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Mike,
I have to ask you what you mean with regard to your understanding of the, ‘Presbyterian-like,’ movement and the shift away from the Holy Spirit as the primary focus for the growth and life of the Church.
I believe that one of the issues in the SGM churches that is that they have approached the ‘Reformed’ theology much like a theological ‘buffet’. It seems to me like they have chosen what they like and left the rest. They have missed the heart of it as I see it. I now attend a quiet little PCA church in Manassas. The primary attraction to me is that in fact in the Presbyterian structure of government there is a mechanism for the individual to challenge leadership and there is a balance of power in the structure. The teaching is not topical and the word of God is the primary focus in the service as opposed to the Pastor choosing a random topic. It’s approaching the Word of God as God dictating to us as opposed to the Pastor dictating to us and using the scriptures to further his own agenda. No system is perfect and there is no perfect system or pastor but some systems of government have more safety mechanisms built in and less temptation for those in positions of authority to deceive themselves as to the boundaries of their authority. These totalitarian systems assign positions of arbitrary authority as opposed to leaders being equal and accountable to all members of the body. This is a critical difference in the governmental functioning of church government. There is a horizontal accountability to each other with regard to sin and a respect for the position of authority. For example, if I tell my children, ‘ Do what I tell you to do because I’m the parent, you’re the child. No questions asked just accept my position of authority and obey. because the word of God says, ‘obey your parents in the Lord’.’ That is authoritarian and arbitrary. There is a reason why a child is told to obey but the whole counsel of scripture qualifies that command in many other scriptures. It commands parents not to ‘frustrate’ the children as well and that parents have to be just as accountable with regard to sin, to their children as their children are to them. It levels the playing field and allows the children to feel equal before the Lord as to their value to the Lord.
I must continue later. I am going to work. Sorry.
June 26th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Lightspeak:
Do you attend Crossroads PCA? I might know you.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
lightspeak,
By “Presbyterian-like” I meant it to mean a deminished view of the active role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers and in the church (active meaning both the continuous presense of the Holy Spirit in a beliver’s life as well as the active use of the gifts that were give to us as believers until Christ’s return). PDI/SGM originally wasn’t reformed and was a flat out charasmatic movement with what I will call a “logical” approach to the giftings of the Spirit. Their move to a reformed theological position has been discussed in length in the other discussion on the site. I’m not reformed in the least bit. However I agree with RC Sproul in that you can’t pick and choose the points of Calvinism that you want to agree with. Calvinism is a very logical A+B+C theological system of thought. It’s all or nothing. Personally for me I see way too many scriptures (in context) that have no other meaning than God giving man the ability to reject the Holy Spirit. That being said I don’t fall in to the reformed camps (nor am I Arminian … saw that debate going on as well).
I agree 100% with your sumation of SGM.
All this being said it really wasn’t SGM moving towards a reformed theology that has soured my view of the group of churches. I boil the issues down similarly as you do. Church polity. Lack of Humility. Lordship over the flock vs. Servanthood. Continuous focus on Sin and the Cross versus a BALANCED teaching of the Sin and the Cross with a focus on the VICTORY and the Blessing that that we have as believers.
June 26th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
formersgmer,
No, I attend a SGM church in the Delaware Valley.
Quick question … Does anyone know about the split at Covenant Grace church with a few of the pastors leaving a few years back? What happened there?
June 26th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Sorry I was in a rush this morning but I will attempt to complete the thought.
The Presbyterian PCA churches as I have known them are certainly focused on the Holy Spirit and in fact some of the most mature Christians I know are members of that church. I spent more than ten years in the authoritarian type non-denominational churches and it was one abusive situation after another. It always came down to the same kinds of issues. Though it is possible in any church for a controlling personality to manipulate a group of people regardless of the safety mechanisms I have only seen one instance of that happening in the PCA. The other issue is the way Pastors address conflicts and how they view their status positionally. They are accountable as individuals to answer for their actions to other individuals. There is a specific protocol for addressing issues and no one is exempt. The idea of being a ’spirit led’ church can be utterly ambiguous and a perfect tool for manipulation. Who determines what is and what isn’t? Where are the boundaries and who sets them? Decisions are made arbitrarily without the input of the body. If you ask questions you are considered rebellious whereas in the Presbyterian they have to justify their decisions and the members participate in major decisions. when people leave they aren’t treated like pariahs. The problem isn’t the Presbyterian like role, it’s the fact that they continued to be authoritarian and arbitrary in their church governing. I believe that is the primary issue and they do not have Biblical clarity on appropriate boundaries. There is clearly the issue of the elite ruling class as well.
June 26th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Though the discussion is a lively one and the theological implications can get pretty intense, I look at the results. I’m not sure what the absolute proper treatment of the debate about the focus on the gifts as interpreted by the charismatic movement is, but I do know one thing for certain. The maturity and consistency of the people matter more to me than the insistence of a particular doctrine. No one could understand the scriptures if they did not have the Holy Spirit. I don’t see any more power in the lives of Christians who have this point of view. To me in the end I believe God desires to know us and that we live lives of integrity and develop a Christlike character. We can talk about how we achieve that end til the cows come home but in the end it’s the result that counts. I simply don’t see a substantive or definitive distinction. I’ve been in many different churches and a Christian for more than 40 years. I am thoroughly familiar with the debate but in the end I have to leave that to the theologians because I see reasonable arguments on both sides. I do not want to be is an environment where the rules are arbitrary and only the elite class knows what the Lord is saying. I believe there is an objective systematic process to divide the word of God. Obviously the process is Holy Spirit directed and the hearers of the word are spirit filled or they would not be capable of understanding it or having an intimate relationship with he Lord.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Just visited that church. (Crossroads)
Mike, I guess my contention would be that I really don’t see a diminished role of the Holy Spirit in any way in the Reformed Presbyterian Churches. I did view it that way when Ieft FCC but in reality it wasn’t the way I was taught and the relationships between people and with the Lord seemed much more substantive as I said before. The evangelical Presbyterian church does believe in the separate infilling and puts special emphasis on the gifts. It’s more about the governing of the church and systematic theology (Scripture interprets scripture) .
June 26th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
hey Lightspeak, or formersgmer, we were in a Manassas CG from 95-2000, were you there too?
June 27th, 2009 at 12:41 am
Defended:
I was not in a manassas CG but we probably know each other.
June 27th, 2009 at 12:44 am
Mike:
Covenant Grace? Do you mean Grace Covenant Church?
June 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
formersgmer,
Dave Harvey’s church in PA … Not sure what its called.
June 27th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Mike-that’s Covenant Fellowship Church.
Or, as DB rightfully calls it, “covenant fullofit”.
As has been mentioned here and other places, DB would be a great person to start with if CJ et al are interested in making amends.
June 28th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
We left our SGM church several months ago after being there from the beginning (5 plus years) because of some of the issues stated above. Mike above hit a big issue:
2) Totalitarian leadership (lack of humility). What I says goes. If you don’t follow us then you are in sin (especially in the grey areas … I’m not talking about black & white). Also, don’t question my leadership … I know what is best. Oh, by the way, my family is always right as well since they are the example for everyone to follow. Don’t question them either. (i apologize for the sarcasm … some hurt there still).
Our pastor seems to think the SGM church polity is in reality unlike that of other denominations. If that is true, then it is due to dysfunction in all of the other denominations also. I believe our pastor believes what he says and I believe he truly thinks our church is functioning fine, he is doing great, the SGM church polity is Godly etc. I think it is unrealistic for any pastor anywhere to be the leader God wants him to be when there is no plurality of leadership, no elders, when in reality he has no accountability and has no one speaking into his life (I know they have this “in word” but how can someone 100s of miles away be speaking into your life when they know nothing about what is really happening in our church). I think he is blind to things, has his way or the SGM way of doing everything etc. A change of church polity in SGM would help change things like this. Is there major abuse here? Absolutely not! Just totalitarian leadership and being blind as best I can tell. When folks are leaving the church about as fast as they are joining, you would think that on the “exit” interviews, the senior pastor would figure out there might be a problem. But SGM does so many things right that many are comfortable in this “culture.” Time will tell.
I finally decided I did not want my young children growing up in this “culture” for the next 20 years. I was also concerned about the lack of biblical knowledge of the pastor. He had acquired lots of biblical wisdom over the years but I personally believe although Pastor’s College may excel in some areas, there is a reason for seminaries, and that a lack of seminary training showed up on Sundays. I also have never been in a church before where there seemed to be such a disconnect between the pastors and the folks in the congregation as far as using people’s gifts.
I hope SGM will change but the problem is more than pastors knowingly doing things wrong. The lack of plurality of leadership is HUGE.
June 29th, 2009 at 1:18 am
To me it’s like the Wizard of Oz. All the bells and whistles. No substance!! Most of the non-denominal churches I have encountered are run that way!! The first thing one should ask in my opinion is , what’s the governmental structure like??? Do church members have a say in church matters and is there a balance of power among the leaders and members? Do we want to live in China or the USA? As individuals we have to stand before the lord someday, therefore I believe as individuals we have to accept the responsibility of choosing a church that governs well. When the church violates the boundaries of individuals and they allow it, needs go unmet. The church is responsible for the teaching of the word and cannot go beyond what the scriptures allow. That is a very good reason for Seminary training and learning the original languages. Under the guise of the
‘leading of the Holy Spirit” the liturgy, as instructed in the scriptures has been cast aside and the expositional preaching of the scriptures replaced by topical teaching that barely mentions the scriptures. If faith comes by hearing the word of God we need to hear it as God intended according to what He means and not have it interpreted according to what an individual wants it to say to meet his agenda.This goes for everybody. We are capable of deceiving ourselves as well. People attend churches for many reasons. I have a friend whose son wasn’t allowed to play in the youth churches band and chose their church with that agenda. We need to choose a church where the word is being taught and their are healthy boundaries. I suggest reading ‘The book of Church order’ if you want to get a sense of church government and how it should function.
June 29th, 2009 at 7:56 am
Re:mike, your assesment “By “Presbyterian-like” I meant it to mean a deminished view of the active role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers and in the church (active meaning both the continuous presense of the Holy Spirit in a beliver’s life as well as the active use of the gifts that were give to us as believers until Christ’s return).” i would strongly disagree with. I would agree with a diminishing of the “spectacular” gifts of the spirit, toungues, prophesy, slaying in teh spirit, etc. However i, and many others i know who have left CLC and SGM have recognized such a higher and much more cative role of the Holy SPirit outside it. In SGM it seems that the HOly spirit is for showy/spectacular gifts, and not much more. There is no trust in the HOly Spirit leading you, convicting you, counseling, giving knowledge etc. One of the biggest differences i have heard peopel say about leaving and going to new more presy chuches is when they receive counsel the person gives wisdom and points them back to scripture and then trusts the spirit to illumninate exactly what to do, they dont get told what to do like at CLC. I think that SGM has a low view of the holy spirit and does not see how the holy spirit is the guide and authoity and can help overcome sin and give wisdom, that we are not need to be told everything to do and how to do it, and be so scared of sin when we are saved.
June 29th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Jim said:
“Mike-that’s Covenant Fellowship Church.
Or, as DB rightfully calls it, “covenant fullofit”.
As has been mentioned here and other places, DB would be a great person to start with if CJ et al are interested in making amends.”
What I find ironic about Covenant Fellowship Church is a message recently given at that Church:
Real Church:
Authentic Gospel
Ministry
June 7, 2009
Jared Mellinger
You can download it from the church’s website:
http://www.covfel.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=70691
Jared Mellinger talks about leaders following the pattern outlined in I Thes 2. This includes leaders being open to questioning etc. It was hard to believe this was a Sovereign Grace Pastor saying all of this in light of all you read on these blogs. I also wasn’t as if Jared Mellinger indicated that there had been a problem with pastors not doing this in the past. It was as if he was indicating this is what he thought the current leadership at Covenant Fellowship Church was.
Hearing Jared Mellinger talk like this when his church is the one that excommunicated Debra Baker due to he questioning the Ezzo parenting philosophies seems quite hypocritical. It was hard to believe he felt he could say this when his church has such a questionable past in this area.
If most pastors in SGM practiced and believe what Mellinger taught in this message I doubt you would have this blog or the SGM Survivors blog.
June 29th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Here is what Jared Mellinger said in the above message:
We as a pastoral team want to be very much open to questions/critical inquiry.
Commited to respond humbly when people express disagreement with doctrine or direction of the church.
Never want people to follow our leadership with blind allegiance. Value members perspectives.
One of the top goals of a pastoral team is to make you feel comfortable voicing your concerns to us & easy for you to do so.
If you ever don’t encounter humility/gentleness we want to know about it.
Qualification distinguishing a pastor is correcting his opponent with gentleness.
Most if not all of what Mellinger shared seems so contradictory to everything you hear on this and the survivors blog about SGM Pastors actions.
Does this sound like the same SGM we have been blogging about?
June 29th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Steve,
When we left FCC in Fairfax, truthfully Brent and Benny couldn’t have been nicer. They said all the things stated in your blog entry. We weren’t concerned with the attitude in our meeting. The point is, whether they are nice, arrogant, sincere, honest or whatever, the individual has no recourse when a leader is wrong. There are no avenues of resolve!! We had no specific complaints of abuse for ourselves but we observed a lack of respect for boundaries and that would have left us open for abuse at some point in time. The idea of correcting in gentleness is not restricted to the pastors. What happens when an individual member attempts to correct a pastor in gentleness, that person is instructed to go ‘pray’ about it and trust the Lord!! That was the response that we experienced. We knew if we responded that way to their intrusion into our family issues or some other extra-biblical issue (not sin), it had the potential to result in public church discipline. Having a clear and concise legal procedure in place with regard to negotiating conflict is not legalism. It is an objective tool to bring biblical resolve to the issues that occur in the course of body life. The right or wrong of a matter is not arbitrary. There is a biblical objective means of determining truth. There are gray areas but we have to concern ourselves with these issues to preserve the integrity of the life of the church and building relationships. We do not learn the art of intimacy and authenticity when we arbitrarily ignore the truth for the sake of preserving the structure of authority. I believe the leadership for the most part believe they are doing the right thing. Regardless of what they believe however, it is extremely destructive and though it pains me to speak out, I believe it is essential for the good of all involved. This is a very clever strategy of the enemy to wreak havoc in the body. As we speak out we need to guard our hearts and our words lest we become like the ones we attempt to correct. There is a reason why the Lord allows us to experience these things. I believe it is websites like this that will hopefully speak to those in error in a way they will understand and the Lord will open their eyes.
June 30th, 2009 at 12:41 am
“Qualification distinguishing a pastor is correcting his >>>opponent<<< with gentleness.”
Well, the above says a whole lot right there, doncha think….?
June 30th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Ellie
The verse that this pastor came up with this principle uses the same word (see below). Thus I doubt one can infer what you did about his using the word “opponent.”
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
II Tim 2:25 ESV
NIV:
25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
NASB:
25(A)with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
June 30th, 2009 at 11:18 am
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
……………………………………
Used in context, I believe that believers are being instructed on how to deal with unbelievers (”enduring evil”), therefore believers shouldn’t regard brothers and sisters in the Lord as “opponents”.
That’s what I see in this passage, anyways.
June 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Ellie,
I happen to agree with you. However, even if this verse is used towards other believers, the fact that it speaks of a devil’s snare means that the person involved must have fallen into great sin. This does not include gray areas, disagreement over doctrine, or any of the minor things that leaders take too seriously (like weight issues, etc). Many of us were not “captured” by satan to do his will, when we disagreed with SGM and had to leave. Therefore, we cannot be called their “opponents”, according to this scripture. Wouldn’t you agree?
June 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
It’s certainly those who oppose the truth, and not those who oppose a pastor’s personal preference.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Jim,
Exactly.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:48 pm
the truth as in scriptural mandates.
July 10th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Jim - I know specific details won’t be shared, but is there any update to this endeavor. Have the letters been sent, has there been any response, approx how many letters, anything. I have been praying that fruit will come from this, and was just looking for any sort of update.
July 10th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Presbyterian,
I have less than 5 letters.
That means 0.01% of our readers are interested in participating.
I’m currently evaluating the value of continuing this blog.
July 11th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I’m currently evaluating the value of continuing this blog.
Jim, I sincerely respect you, but that was such an unfair comment to make. This blog has helped so many people. Some of us did not feel that repeating our stories to CJ was going to change anything (he can read many of those stories here if he wished to). We are more focused on helping the wounded. They are well worth this blog continuing!
If I misunderstood your comment, I apologize.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Jim
I am sorry to hear you are evaluating whether to close this blog. I can understand your frustration on receiving so few letters. I wish I had a real story to share. People need to step up to the plate if we really want to see some type of change happen with SGM.
As Canary said, this blog did give help a number of people. It would be sad to see it close.
Even if you do shut this blog down, maybe you could leave the comments up so people could find the existing information online etc. .
July 11th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
:’{
July 11th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
“I am not alone, and I am not crazy. Perhaps that knowledge will be enough. There are a lot of people reading what is said here, with relatively few posters. We are more than fine with that-we are elated.”
This blog is still opening eyes. It opened mine and my family’s. Who else will tell us? Not SG. All of the many things that have gnawed at us for years did not come into focus until we read here. We just had a lot of vague concerns that seemed unrelated until the puzzle pieces were placed together. We haven’t experienced a dramatic story like a lot of you. But we are done with being cut off from the rest of our Christian family, the continual emphasis on our “most sinful” status, and the lack of accountability to the congregation. We have long wondered if others in our church were concerned about these things, because “on the inside”, no one talks… and things have just gnawed at us for years. Having the lights turned on, was very important to our family. Here we learned about the structure of SGM, and its damaging effects on God’s beloved children in other SG churches and it’s lesser effects on us. I have learned to (respectfully) question, to be more diligent to study God’s Word and not coast on auto-pilot anymore. I’m hoping you will still be here as we walk through things. It really is such a comfort to know someone’s out there that understands. I’m not able to post much because we are still walking through, but you all have been used of God, just in your being here… we know we’re not alone. We’re nobody special, but we’re one more family with freedom in our sights. Coveting all your prayers for His wisdom, Hope
July 11th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Canary-you know me. There are 100 reasons I’m evaluating refuge.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
I’ve been consider and reconsidering and considering again writing a letter to CJ. Someone really encouraged me to do it. And I want to. It’s a lot to write down, it’s a lot to sort through, it’s a lot to relive and dredge up. And it is incredibly painful to go down those memory paths again.
Jim, don’t look at it like we don’t want to participate. We do, well I do. It’s just going to take time. A lot of time. I feel like Data from ST-TNG – Processing…Processing…Processing. When I’m there, I’ll write it finished and email it to you.
It’s just not going to be finished any time soon.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Hi Jim,
I’m not sure what your 100 reasons might be but I understand why you would be concerned. Regardless of how traumatized people are there still have to be some boundaries as to how these issues are addressed. I think the freedom to share is extremely important to those who recognize that their freedom is compromised in the authoritarian structure. Without an open forum and contrasting views being expressed it’s very confusing when you are still there. I do think it’s essential to keep on point though and encourage those who have had abusive experiences to work through it carefully and not just vent. Some may need counseling and others just need to understand and move forward. I do think a lot of people get stuck when there is no dialogue. May I ask about some of your reasons?
July 12th, 2009 at 3:16 am
We’re nobody special, but we’re one more family with freedom in our sights. Coveting all your prayers for His wisdom, Hope
Oh, but you are, Hope. You and your family are very very special!!!!
I’m glad you are here!
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
July 12th, 2009 at 5:11 am
Thanks Ellie, ((( hugs ))) back to you!
Oh for all the sons and daughters
Who are walking in the darkness
You are calling us to lead them back to You
We will see Your spirit rising
As the lost come out of hiding
Every heart will see this hope we have in You
From: Tear Down These Walls (Hillsong UN)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-R314tcUFw
July 12th, 2009 at 8:45 am
Maybe Jim is on to something.
July 12th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Mike said, “Maybe Jim is on to something.”
Mike, What would you think that would be?
July 12th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Hope,
I’m lifting you and your family up to the Lord today. We stand with you as you work through it all. So glad you posted!
July 12th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Hey Fred, if it would be possible, could you exchange emails with me through Jim? Thanks!
July 12th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Maybe that this site has played out its purpose? … sometimes I get the feeling that stories are continously rehashed over and over again. Some from as many as twenty years ago. I’m not saying what happened to individuals wasn’t wrong , it was and I’m sure it still hurts … but what is the purpose of the site? To sit here and keep on talking about situations from days long past? To be healed? To grow? … This is what I’ve been thinking about lately …
Mike
July 12th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Canary, thanks… it really means a lot right now!
Mike, it certainly can only be good to examine why we’re here and what the point is as we surely want to honor and not dishonor Christ, but it’s not all in the past. It’s twenty years ago, it’s 2 years ago, it’s 2 months ago, it’s now. If the point is to offer a “refuge,” that purpose IS still being served. Even if the ship were somehow turned 180 today, the side effects would likely remain for years to come. The ills are deep within the culture and so there won’t be any sudden change…there will still be refugees. They (we,I) still need to know “they’re not crazy and not alone.” Who can offer that encouragement?
2Cor 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.
July 12th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Mike,
The purpose of the site is help for those hurt by SGM and a call to reform. Given our stated purpose, I don’t think it’s time to put a fork in it.
Most of our current commenters have had pretty recent experiences, or at least have recently found us.
This place can be very healthy for some and very unhealthy for others. That’s for each individual to decide.
My reasons for considering closing the doors here mostly have to do with me. If I do discontinue the blog, I would just close comments and hope the right person comes along to take over. What’s great about refuge is that it’s fine without Carole and I. We’ve been barely visible, and a huge amount of people are still reading, which is a great way to evaluate a ministry-does it need it’s founder to move forward. Refuge clearly does not.
That’s a good thing
July 13th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Mike,
I am one of the 20-year-old story tellers here on the refuge. First of all, let me assure you of a few things. One, I’m well. I do not sit around stewing and spewing about what happened to us long ago. And two, when I first started reading the blogs over at survivors a year ago, I went in with a “surely these guys have changed some over 20 years” attitude, but the more I read, the more I realized that sadly, it was not true.
God is faithful. He did not leave me in my broken state when PDI tossed me aside so cruelly. I am not here because I need healing or because I need to rehash. Think of it this way: if I was raped 20 years ago, had gone through counseling and years of recovery until I was completely well, I would still never forget what had happened to me. Like it or not, it would have shaped my life in some way. As a result, I would be extremely compassionate and empathetic to those who also experienced that terrible act, whether it was 20 days or 20 years after my experience. In fact, I would be much more equipped after 20 years had passed to offer real encouragement that God does heal, He does redeem and move you forward in life, and you can go on to live without fear and pain. My life would be a living epistle to that truth.
In my case, my involvement here is as simple as that. I am here on this blog to say:
I hear and understand your pain. It is real. There are serious issues. They’ve been going on a long time. BUT God is good. He is there. He can and WILL take you through. Stay close to Him. Take your time and let Him heal you. Life does go on and with the freedom and intimacy that Jesus desires we experience, it is FAR better than what PDI/SGM has to offer.
July 13th, 2009 at 7:45 am
Jim,
Hey! Please tell your beautiful wife that she will be hearing from me soon. Got to catch up! Love you guys.
July 13th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Good post, Gracie!!!
July 13th, 2009 at 11:08 am
So well stated Gracie……
Thank you!
July 13th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Hope, Excellent post.
Gracie, Your empathy and compassion are filled with the love of Jesus. You have helped many, I’m sure. Good explanation to Mike on why we post here. Hugs from your tweety friend!
Jim, Very, very well stated on your latest post. It is exciting to see new posters come here to find that they are not alone in their experiences. Wish this blog had been around about 12 years ago. It would have spared me so much confusion and suffering. But, as with Gracie, the Lord has been faithful to heal me and guide me into His amazing grace. Now, the Lord is using the Body to help one another. So cool!
July 14th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Jim,
I know this blog is probably a lot of work and the SGM/PDI theology and practice a tiresome subjrct. It is understandable that you might want to move on to other areas of life that may at this time be more productive for you and your family. No one here would begrudge you that decision.
Just know as someone who recently made the decision to leave SGM this site and Survivor and Spiritualtyranny have been a life rope to me and my family. So what ever you decide, thanks for providing a forum for the brokenhearted and spiritually damaged to communicate and grow out of the darkeness.
July 15th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Just checking in on the subject at hand. I have family in lock down, I mean Sovereign Grace Ministries Still. I recently listened to a message and was horrified at “what was being dished out from the pulpit”
It was the pure opinion of man, and a lofty view of CJ mixed with a dose of condemenation, by a child with 9 months of training. It is very sad.
It really helps me to heal to read, and read and pray and read encouragement from othes…nobody knows me and no one knows where I’m at from day to day. It is still VERY HARD. , and can be very confusing..
The first church I went to split, and the second one there was public and gross sexueal abuse that was dealt with publically and properly….I would rather be there or no where than to be at Sovereign Grace, where they hide, lie, and abuse and neglect my brothers and sisters in Christ. It is current and it is real time NOW going on. No accountability…fresh friendly faces in leadership all to replace those who know the truth and who stick up for what is right.
August 14th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Jim- can’t email you at jim@sgmrefuge.com, keeps bouncing back as undeliverable- Paul
August 14th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Paul,
I’ve heard that from a couple of people, although I just received an email from you.
If anyone is having the same problem, you can use myfunnygreeklastname@gmail.com