5YearsinPDI had a good idea here.
I think it’s a second option, if you’ve done everything you can to work things out directly with SGM first.
Matthew 18 is pretty clear on this.
I’ve been told by someone I trust that CJ is open to receiving a letter (or letters) from me expressing concerns about any unresolved issues with current or former members of SGM.
The reformed big dog who reached out to us believes that CJ will not give weight to anonymous third hand accounts, but believes that CJ will do all that he can to encourage a proper response in situations in which people would be willing to identify themselves.
I told this gentleman over two months ago that I had dozens (round number-I have no idea how many accounts are in my inbox) of accounts of pastoral abuse, which I would define as an abuse of authority.
I simply don’t have the time to do what I had originally planned, which was to contact everyone individually, hence the online request.
If anyone has an interest, please send me a note. I’ll answer every question I can. jim@sgmrefuge.com.
May 27th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
I would think that CJ heard more than enough accounts, I wonder what would happen in situations where CJ was the problem? Would he “step down”? Would the CJ cloning stop? Would the Holy Spirit be allowed back in PDI/sgm?
Ellie the skeptical
sigh
:[
May 27th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Why can’t CJ reach out himself?
Sorry to be so skeptical-but is CJ’s phone and email system broken?
May 27th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Ellie, I’m with you!
Jim –
This is an interesting development. Please forgive my skepticism toward it.
It seems that many of the stories at Refuge and Survivors involve folk who tried to resolve things at the local level. When that didn’t work, they tried the next level – regional, apostle, whatever. At the next level, it seems that people were beaten down, too. Then some relief was found through new churches, healthy Christian relationships, and these websites – where people can tell part of their story, usually anonymously, without fear of the recriminations and poor treatment that was experienced at the hands (and lips) of ex-pastors, ex-CGLs, ex-apostles and (there sposuses!).
How does that old saying go: fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice, shame on me; fool me three times?
If we look just at your case, Jim, and the case of sexual abuse at Fairfax detailed at Survivors – isn’t that enough for CJ to do what he says he’ll do? After all, Jim; you’ve been hiding in plain view! The case at Survivors names the SG church, senior pastor, and communication from Peacemakers. Or how about the case of Esther that is on this sight?
Seriously, to me it seems that CJ/SGM have more than enough substantial information to act upon. Could it be that this is just another CYA from SGM and CJM?
Maybe I should change my moniker to 4evrAskeptic …
nw
May 27th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
I’m just the messenger
I appreciate CJ’s invitation and believe that 100 accounts delivered by me could not be dismissed as anonymous blog gossip.
May 27th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Sorry about some spelling errors in my last post – typing too fast!
Jim, if there is venom in what I write, it is not directed at you. Please forgive me if I made you feel that way.
Another comment on CJ’s offer – is he aware that unveiling the anonymous is not the way that his own apostles and pastors work in some cases?
Take my own situation – my ex-SG church pastors/leaders never revealed the issues that they and anonymous others had with me. The same was true with the apostle for the region; it was “some” people may have “some” issues with you. That was the dilemma that I presented to the pastor and the apostle – how can I attempt to resolve unknown issues if I don’t know who has the issues and what the issues are? I’m still waiting for the answers …
CJ has access to lists of all the pastors and staffers who have left in the last couple of years. Why don’t they get somebody impartial to start there and ask the departed why they left? Don’t ask only the remaining pastor/staff/apostle why somebody left; get the real answer. Maybe start with churches in NYC, Denver, Virginia – where else?
Why doesn’t SGM get an impartial party to go through the lists that churches maintain of members who have resigned to find out why they really resigned?
Maybe if SG leadership stopped blogging, writing books, speaking at conferences, “planting” churches, and “adopting” churches and really cared for the churches already part of the family, maybe if less time was spent courting the reformed big dogs, maybe if all that wonderful CCEF counsel was practiced instead of quoted … I know, if a bullfrog had wings …
May 27th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Would they in turn be transparent?
Give specific events and names instead of the broad, “our assesment”, or “we feel that based on x, you are Y.”
100 letters would be about 1% of the SGM fallout.
May 27th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
A suggestion, maybe even an appeal, was made last December/Jan. to the leaders “apostles” of SG to come to Chesapeake and interview those who had been abused as well as the 3 couples as part of their “investigation”. This would have been quite easy for them to accomplish but it never happened. If they had truly cared about the problems and cared about “fixing” things, cared about the truth, cared about the “sheep”, I would think that Dave Harvey, Steve Shank and yes even CJ himself would have come to Chesapeake quickly. In fact, I do not think that they would have had to be asked. They would have come on their own initiative. Gene Emerson became involved only when DD of the finance team asked him to come. Then at the Jan 25 family meeting, Gene said that he was not responsible for Keith or for anything that had happened.
Months went by and then the announcement was made that Keith was leaving and Eric was coming back but this had nothing to do with the “problems”. No, this team of leaders, CJ, et al, have chosen to sweep things under the carpet and to continue with business as usual, hoping that it will all blow away. I am quite skeptical of CJ’s offer. He and his team have had many opportunities to talk directly to the people but they have chosen to remain silent and separated. Sadly, I believe that this is more smoke….
May 27th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
newly-no worries. I sorta had a feeling that this post could stir up some emotions. I was even considering closing comments, but thought better of it. Ok-Carole suggested I leave them open, which is our practice anyway.
May 27th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I think for those that have been negatively affected by SGM, you should definitely take Jim up on this offer to tell CJ what’s going on. If he is flooded with sincere, coherent, complete descriptions of your situation, he can’t deny there are problems. If we are sending those through someone (like Jim) then there’s a 3rd party to verify that these accounts were sent. There’s no denying it. I’m going to do it, because I do not feel my situation was given proper attention or resolution by leadership.
I am just as skeptical as the rest (my wife thinks I’m more skeptical than anyone else), but if CJ is sincere (and I’m hoping he is), then why not try it?
May 27th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Well, I feel honored
The reason I had suggested sending a massive mailing to all those big names is because I am as totally sceptical about CJ as everybody else here. But Jim is right- they will ask if people first went to the CJ and the Apostles before coming to them. So first you need to go to CJ with all the specifics.
I think Fred’s post up above is important….any situation where attempts were made to ask them to intervene and they did not should be listed. I mean, a male church member sexually abusing a little girl and they did not come to the rescue? John Piper and Randy Alcorn and Ligon Duncan and all the rest need to know the facts if you ask me, if CJ does not express full regret and repentance.
Hub and I had a nice marriage and good kids, so we were were respected and even favored and my pastors expressed kindness when we left. We were honest that we respected them but could not submit up the chain to CJ after what we saw of him. But I don’t have a personal horror story, it is more like I watched women around me shut down into “sweet submission” that seemed to end up in depressions.
Jim I think you are doing the right thing and it will be great if there is open admission of abusive local pastoral authority because of bad doctrine in this area. It will be great if you see change. I am dubious, but with everything you already have on your platter, may God bless you for doing this.
May 27th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
May I suggest that if you write to CJ, send copies to Dave Harvey, Steve Shank and other members of the “apostolic” /leadership team? That way, no one has excuses that they didn’t “see” or ‘hear” of the evil.
May 27th, 2009 at 7:34 pm
If CJ really wanted to know people’s stories, he would not still be playing the ”anonymous doesn’t count” card. He’ll listen, but it is on his terms? Whatever…
but since he is still playing this game…I’ll challenge him, if the offer IS legit by saying this:
CJ Mahaney…if you want to know firsthand what happened to me then please call my former senior pastor, Bob Odom, get my phone number, and call me. I’ll be more than happy to talk to you.
My real name is Juli and my last name is Morrison and I used to attend Lifegate Ministries in Seguin, Texas.
how’s that? No excuses now. And CJ, don’t bother asking Steve Shank or the regional apostle Craig Cabannis to make the call. I won’t talk to them. The offer is supposedly from you -so you make the call. If you really care to hear the stories and experiences firsthand from people who are not anonymous, then you can start with me. I’m far from being anonymous and haven’t been for several months now.
May 27th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
musicman, I just saw your post, what a good question.
I refuse to communicate with CJ on HIS terms…if he really cares, he can evidence this by reaching out to the one who was hurt and abused, not expect them to find him. I gave him all the info he needs to do so. And if he does, I will be sure to let everyone know here that he did.
May 27th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
I forgot to add…Debra Baker is not anonymous, she documented everything that happened to her (in fact, last I checked, her story was on the Wiki article, bring disputed fervently)
the anonymous thing is a joke of an excuse and an insult to everyone’s intelligence and sensibilities. Plenty of people are not anonymous and have shared their stories both publicly and privately, and CJ and the pastors involved still don’t care.
May 27th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
This request was sent to me by someone everyone here would know.
I asked the reformed big dogs to get involved, and one decides to. At least one, depending of your RBD definition.
I’ve explained that there would be opposition to the idea, but thought that I could make it happen. That we could make it happen.
What’s the best outcome here-to deliver nothing?
May 27th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Hi, Jim, I have composed a number of letters in my head to CJ–and wondered what I would say if I ran into him at the Flower Hill Starbucks.
I would be happy to share my story and concerns by name–as it is my initials, story, and photo are right here.
Can you give some specifics about the format of this communication? Are you thinking more along the lines of executive summaries and names–since it’s potentially so many stories? or are these individual letters (of whatever length) collected and sent on by the bagful?
Could we get assurances that no suits would be filed against named whistleblowers/truthtellers/survivors?
May 27th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
I won’t be contacting CJ–because I am not, and never have been, SGM.
However, if I had been abused in SGM, I would definitely be writing away right this minute.
Not so much because of CJ, although ‘love always hopes…’ Perhaps you can be a part of change, what an incredible privilege that would be!!
But I would do it, if I was you, because all of us have been whining for a year that none of the Reformed Big Dogs is willing to listen or get involved.
Then, one of them does get involved, and if you stick your head in the sand and refuse to write this, you deprive HIM, not CJ, but the RBD, of your first-hand testimony–even if he doesn’t actually read it, the fact that a ton of you sent in a congent letter describing your experience will mean much.
Whoever this guy is, and I’d love to guess, what impact might your story have on HIM?
I was reading the new WORLD magazine today, and noticed several conferences coming up, most of which involve the Big Dogs, none of which involve CJ. Don’t be deluded into thinking he is, himself, a RBD.
This is the thing you have waited for: one of the RBD’s noticing that there is a stench in the land.
I’m just saying, is all.
…
May 27th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Jim, I would be happy to add my story to the pile. My initials, story, and picture are all right here.
I’m wondering about the format of this communication. Are we sending a big bag of letters from folks? Are we sending executive summaries with names, organized by topic and/or church?
Do we have assurances the law firm Gmmn&Grng will not be contacting us?
May 27th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
This is certainly an interesting development and Jim you raise a good point. We certainly don’t want to answer the “offer” with no letters/accounts.
I am quite skeptical. As other have shared that there already are a number of stories with real names (don’t forget Dan in England) that have been shared here and other places. SGM hasn’t seemed to want to invest the time to clear those. I also am not aware of times when SGM has admitted their errors such as confessed and forsaken them. They might change but don’t hear of when they have admitted what they have done in the past was wrong.
Just my thoughts.
Steve
May 27th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
RT, you said about the reformed big dog who contacted Jim: “Whoever this guy is”
yeah, that is exactly my point. Why does HE presume to remain anonymous and then suggest that we don’t in order for CJ to take us seriously? Why doesn’t he put HIS neck out on the line and publicly disagree with CJ Mahaney?
I’m just saying…maybe CJ Mahaney would take the Reformed BIG DOGS seriously if THEY would stop being anonymous too.
I apologize Jim, as I mean no disrespect to you or your established contact with this man, whoever he is…I know you are just the messenger. But his suggestion is steeped in cowardice and a heck of a lot of presumption.
Note to readers, here is the Disclaimer: The above are MY thoughts, certainly not those of SGM Refuge or Jim. I hope that is clear to those reading along. Unlike in SGM, we are free here to speak our minds.
May 27th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
I have to admit that I am a bit skeptical about this whole “CJ is willing to listen” deal. BUT… as RT stated above, this is what we’ve been asking for, for a RBD to get involved and help find resolution and reconciliation. It really doesn’t matter who the RBD is… nor does it matter what his level of involvement is or has been. He has taken our accounts seriously, he has approached CJ on our behalf. If he wants to remain anonymous, that’s fine, as he hasn’t played a role in any of our situations, he hasn’t sinned against any of us… he didn’t even have to get involved, but he did! And I, for one, am grateful to him! He has already put his neck on the line for us by going to CJ and confronting him on our behalf. Isn’t that enough for someone who has had absolutely nothing to do with any of this?
Also, Jim is not anonymous… Jim is the go between here. Is he not to be trusted? Has he done anything to cause any of you to doubt him? Jim is sticking his neck out here… for me, for you, for himself. If you don’t want to be a part, that’s okay… no pressure at all. But, again, this is what many of us have been asking for.
As my sweet Mom would say…”Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.” I’m not too sure what it means, but it sounded appropriate…
May 27th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
OY!! Though I too have my questions of sincerity on CJ’s part—I agree with Carole and RT…this is a significant development: that ONE RBD has approached Cj on our behalf—this speaks that there is a desire for TRUTH— We have Truth to speak and bring to light—this is so important,for Gods people are being mauled and discarded by SGM leadership. Jim and Carole, we have been praying about our story for a couple weeks—we will be writing you and thankyou for offering yourselves as the conduits to send the story—we trust YOU—and as we all know, that is a huge issue coming out of SGM.
Gods Word is Living and active—Jesus’ declaration: “Woe to you Pharisees,because you give a tenth of your mint,rue, and all other kinds of garden herbs, BUT YOU NEGLECT JUSTICE AND THE LOVE OF GOD. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former UNDONE.” {Luke 11:42}….. “For I, the Lord, love justice.”
{Isaiah 61:8}…because HE IS a God of Justice {Isaiah 30:18}
May 27th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
acme,
You have raised a good question about potential litigation. I’ll have an answer tomorrow.
I would suggest emailing me word docs or PDFs. I’ll convert the word docs I receive to locked PDF.
May 27th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Jim,
Are you serious, and do you really believe this? I smell a royal setup in the works, and I mean big time. Since when did C.J. do his own dirty work. Notice that the “offer” came via another RBD and not directly from “the man” himself. Call me skeptical, but, okay. Just call me skeptical.
May 27th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
I really think you need to write to Kris and Guy and have them feature this on their site with a link. Maybe you could ask them to block comments so people are forced to post here if they need to ask you a question. There is also no point in scores of replies over at survivors that CJ won’t change. ( I happen to think that myself, and would bet on it if I was a gambler, but it is pointless to go that direction. The main point is to collect actual factual stories).
You might want to try to contact this church:
http://enjoyinggrace.org/index.php?pID=11
This is the church that Joe McMullin, former ( LOYAL!) pastor at Covenant fellowship under Dave Harvey, is now with. They broke with SGM and took plenty of people with them. It was all very hush hush and maybe they will not want to say a thing. But perhaps, if you tell the pastors that a Reformed Big Dog is willing to get involved with SGM problems at the top, well then perhaps they will be willing to refer you to people who were mistreated even if they do not want to comment themselves. Or maybe they will at least refer anybody who still is hurt to you. Might be long shot but thought I’d mention it.
Give this a couple weeks. Strongholds of the fear of them can run deep. I know, there was a time I was afraid.
Prayers!!!
May 27th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Yes, amen! This is what many of us have been praying for! Please everyone who has a story to tell — let’s walk through this door of opportunity! May God receive all the glory.
P.D.
protestantdame@gmail.com
May 27th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
Jim:
Thank you for doing this; we both know this is an answer to prayer to get even this far in a dialogue.
You’ll be getting a copy of my story as well, and you know you have my help when you need it.
~John
May 28th, 2009 at 12:10 am
Sidney is skeptical. Sorry.
This is a very strategic move. Damage control at its best.
I hate to be that way.
Also, I really don’t think it’s going to even be the beginning of “reform” because the “reform” necessary to change anything at SGM is complete overhaul. I’ve said it before, as have others, it would not even be SGM anymore.
Sorry guys.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:14 am
iwasDeleted,
I believe the RBD is an honest man. We’ve been talking for 2 and a half months. He would not be involved in whatever kind of set up you’re thinking about.
Friends-think about this. I see this as a win/win.
Possibility #1: CJ will seriously consider the documentation and use his influence to ensure a Godly resolution to past and current conflicts.
Possibility #2: The above will not happen, and the RBD (and others) will be aware of CJ’s inaction.
In either scenario, who loses? I would obviously hope for #1, but I would think that there are many who would be happy with #1 or #2.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Beloved in Christ:
You need to read, re-read and read again Jim’s 12:14am post. He has some excellent points.
~j
May 28th, 2009 at 2:08 am
Jim, we’re willing to restate our story. But it spans months and months…should we edit it?
Secondly, the anonymity of the RBD is puzzling. Can you shed light on that? Is there a point at which he is accountable as well as CJ?
How does this work, exactly? We send stories to you and you deliver en masse?
Don’t forget a certain AZ “Apostle” said (before witnesses) that Matthew 18 can’t just be applied when it’s convenient to us. I would humbly ask, he was speaking for CJ, right?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:24 am
Jim,
Scenario 3: SGM uses this as a platform for a witch hunt to find out where all those “nasty rumors and gossip” are coming from and use this to dispatch their small army of litigants on the unsuspecting participants, thereby ripping open wounds that have just begun to heal in some folks. Okay, call me paranoid but given their (SGM) track record I would think there’s some hint of evidence to suggest the possibility. And there are more than a few people here with a lot more at stake besides the potential for financial and legal nightmares (familial ties, friendships, jobs, etc.) to make this something to think twice on before banging out a letter with “hi, my name is xxx and I live in xxxx and I was a former member of SG xxxx”. Just a few thoughts from the cheap seats, as C.J. would say.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:48 am
I agree with you Jim, I think this is a win/win situation and it actually gives me a little hope. I thought I had lost all hope. Thank you for initiating this.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:26 am
Jim,
I lnow the details probably haven’t been worked out, but could you possibly fill in some gaps? What is the process…does everyone send you their story, then you pass them along to RBD and CJ? How will CJ respond? Will he be responding to you and RBD – will there be any public acknowledgement? Also, acme asked above about the format…are you looking for detail or an executive summary?
I am very skeptical and imagine the result will be tracking down the victims sin as revealed in their stories. I hope that is not the case. Either way, I plan on sending you my story (nothing dramatic) in the hopes of reform in SGM.
There is much though, in addition to victims…what about SGM’s polity, SGM’s deceit in the church’s use of ”missions” funds for normal operating expenses, lack of financial accountability, etc? Will CJ be addressing those as well?
Brother, thank you so much for this blog and for working towards a resolution. I can’t imagine the effort this takes and the time/emotional toll it takes. You are making a difference in peoples lives and it is appreciated, though mostly unsaid.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:06 am
I’ll answer questions via email. I won’t tell you who the RBD is, because he’s asked me not to. Your account should be sent to me in the form of a word doc or PDF.
No one is under any compulsion to participate. To be very honest, I’ve heard more than enough reasons why some think this is a bad idea.
I’m not taking a vote, I’m offering to help. If you don’t like the idea, then you should not participate.
I’m moving forward with this, and my account will be included.
May 28th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I truly understand the skepticism that has been voiced here… as I said in an earlier comment, I am a bit skeptical as well. But here is where my apprehension lies… (and it’s not in the RBD whose concerns were piqued when reading of these accounts, then took the initiative to contact Jim, then went to CJ on our behalf. I mean, come on!… are we gonna fault him or accuse him for stepping in and opening a door for us?)
No, my concerns lie solely on CJ and his leaders… I’m not sure how he is going to respond, as I’ve seen his track record in the past. :-/ But, as Jim said, it seems like a win/win… either CJ responds in a biblical manner or he doesn’t… that remains to be seen. But, if CJ or any of his leaders choose to remain silent or turn the tables back on us in any way, as they have done to so many of us in our past interactions with them, that would not be a good move on their part… there is at least one RBD who is watching them. I see that as a good thing.
But I can assure you that Jim is doing everything he can to insure that this is not a trap for any of us. After all, we have seen the hurt, we have walked that road, too, along with many of you. The last thing in the world Jim or I want to see happen is more hurt, more pain, more suffering heaped on anyone at the hands of SGM.
One more thing… this should not be confused with reform within SGM… this is strictly an opportunity to share our accounts, to give voice to what happened to us at the hands of our SGM leaders and look for repentance and forgiveness… Reform still needs to happen, but that’s another subject entirely. And reform needs to happen so that accounts like ours do not happen to anyone else…
I understand your skepticism, I truly do. But I also believe in a very big God, Who may be moving and working here…
We’ll just have to wait and see how this whole thing progresses.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Beloved of Christ:
A third party is involved, and this is good news.
This may seem too crude an example, but here it goes:
I’m hearing lots of “what about the stack already on their desk?” stories in regard to Jim’s request for testimonies/stories.
Our testimonies were arrows.
What Jim is requesting will make a missile.
I’m not talking about destroying people; I’m talking about what gets an organization to sit up and pay attention to what you have to say.
I could continue with the analogies, but the only thing I have to add is this: the blogs have served their purpose to facilitate this. Let’s all take a bow, congratulate ourselves, and then get to writing. I know there is a temptation to draw a line and make someone meet your list of demands in this whole process (I’ve struggled in that whole area).
If you feel CJ or anyone else is doing too little too late, has an agenda, didn’t include this in his request or that in his actions, couldn’t we as one group of Christians bite the bullet and engage in returning good for evil?
~jw
May 28th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Carole:
Outstanding comments and exhortations on your 8:53 post.
~jw
May 28th, 2009 at 9:36 am
This may ruffle feathers, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this:
To demand the name of the RBD is to doubt Jim’s word that this man is legitimate.
Jim has proven himself to be a man of unbelievable character and judgement–he is unfailingly truthful and discrete. Carole has spent countless hours in ministry to many of us ladies. He is weary and busy and sick of the whole thing, yet he perseveres, not only here on the blog, but through email and phone conversations.
Can you perceive the timing here? Jim admits he is weary and bored with SGM and the blog, burdened with work, and all of a sudden this comes about? As his time as an online blogmaster winds to a close, it is obvious that this is the time to do this.
If you were in need to financial support, and an anonymous donor offered you $10 million through a known and trusted friend, you wouldn’t take the offer of help without knowing who the original donor was?
The RBD also needs protection–he is a mediator–not directly involved in this at all. He is responsible to his own elders and to his church.
This is what we all have been asking for.
My family has been victimized in much the same way as most of you at another church. My kids were shunned publicly one time. I was enraged by that, and in general I tend to let that stuff go. I understand fear and pain. We wanted someone to listen to us.
We tried to speak to the elders at that church, but they were too busy calling around trying to rake up mud on us. They were too busy disinvesting us of positions of bible study leaders, etc. They were too busy codependantly protecting themselves and their pastor to listen to truth. They didn’t care about the Book in our case, they were worried about CYA.
Our former pastor chased our current pastor around at presbytery one day, (actually chased him right into the bathroom) to tell him that we were trouble, and that was where we were finally heard.
Our new pastor and, seperately, an elder, asked us to tell him (them) the unvarnished truth and we did, dispassionately. Their flaws. Our flaws. He listened. He believed us.
Having someone listen to us, believe us, was like losing a thousand pound malignant tumor. We were heard.
The power that our previous pastor held over us, emotionally, evaporated. You can’t believe the freedom that came when we told the story ONE MORE TIME and THAT TIME WAS THE TIME!
I beg you, if you have a story to tell, THIS COULD BE YOUR TIME, THE TIME, THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
If this turns out to not be THE TIME, then it is just one more time you tell the story. It doesn’t give CJ any more power–he is the emperor with no clothes and YOU KNOW IT.
Jesus adores you. He longs to be gracious to you. He has given you everything that is His. Your position in Him is secure: your identity is as a beloved child of the universe breathing almighty God, not as a victim of CJ and this SGM system.
You won’t be alone in this. Jim will be there, a host of your brethren will be there. It won’t just be your voice anymore–it will be the voices of many of us, many from this large community that has bonded together in common interest, and now finally in love for one another.
The difference here is this: if you tell your story one more time, and then experience any weird stuff, any persecution, any shunning, that is simply the next part of your story to tell.
The RBD, and others who are watching, are watching to SEE CJ’S REACTION TO YOUR STORY!
If he doesn’t respond with true repentance, with true change, THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE WAITED FOR.
If CJ responds with true repentance, if he calls for top-down change, if he changes the church’s polity, established lay eldership, demands accountability, opens his church and his books for examination, abolishes the PC and encouarges each congregation to call their own pastors, if he chooses a great man with vision to set up an international missions arm of the church, if he calls each congregation to begin lavish giving to the poor and needy, if he encourages every pastor to begin connecting with the rest of the confessing church in their city for prayer and service and mutual support, THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE WAITED FOR.
Don’t let this chance pass you by. For my dh and me, to have had the opportunity to bond together with all the believers that were hurt, shunned and denigrated in our former church, enabled by an objective third party, to present our stories would have been wonderful.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Defamation of character and slander generally have to be in public arenas–such as writing in a newspaper.
Writing a private letter to one person that is filled with truth, that says Pastor X, in 2001, told me that I could not teach because I was not dressed appropriately” or whatever, is neither slander nor defamation.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Hey PK!!
Long time, no see, my friend!
Sidney… I understand your concerns and hesitation, I truly do! Jim and I have walked this path ourselves and along with many of you for a very long time… we know SGM’s unbiblical methods, believe me!
We are not forcing anyone to do this… we are simply providing an opportunity. That’s all. If you don’t want to participate, that’s cool!… If you do, that’s cool, too. No pressure from us. Jim has passed along the message, and he is willing to be the “go between”.
Jim is also doing everything in his power to make sure that there will be no retribution aimed at any of us, legal or otherwise. Again, having at least one RBD looking over CJ’s shoulder is a good thing, in my opinion.
The way this will work is that Jim will collect all of the accounts and convert them to locked PDF’s… which means they cannot be edited. This will take a while to gather the accounts, convert them and get them ready to send to CJ.
During this time, rest assured that Jim will be looking into everything… every loophole, possible litigation, etc. If anything comes up that looks and/or smells fishy, Jim will not continue this endeavor. Jim is not stupid (far from it!) and there are people he knows and trusts that can help him walk through the legal ramifications of all of this.
Believe me when I say that those who have been hurt and treated in an unbiblical manner by SGM is of the utmost importance to us. We are not going to do anything that would cause more harm to all of you that we have grown to love so much.
Again, let me reiterate this point… Jim is just the messenger… and he has taken on the responsibility of collecting accounts from those that want to participate. There is absolutely no pressure being placed on anyone to do anything they are not comfortable doing. But for those that do, the opportunity has been placed before us. It’s up to us, individually, to decide what we want to do with it.
May 28th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Even in my skepticism and concern, I will write a letter. I do this praying for the full armor of God to cover each and everyone of us who write. I do this with no expectation from CJ because I have sent him letters before and never received one reply. Oh, I do believe that he was involved in our case here in Chesapeake but he remained silent to the people and stayed behind the scene. Maybe something has changed in this man. Maybe the Spirit of God is moving in his heart….I do not know. Only God knows CJ’s motives. CJ and his movement have already hurt so many, slandered so many and smeared the names of so many who will be writing letters. Can they hurt us even more….possibly. Could they use our names to bring slander suits? i do not know.
I am wondering, what is the possible outcome of these letters? Maybe a form letter or even a personal letter to each one back from CJ saying he is sorry. Will he post a letter on this blog? Will this be enough? As we write our letters, let’s ask the question, what are we hoping to accomplish from this endeavor? What is the return we are hoping for???
May 28th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Fred, I like your faith.
Jim and Carole,
I do think it is interesting that, just as Jim seems unable to keep the blog going, this happens. It is very “hand of God-ish”. I had lost all hope of the big dogs taking any interest in their own wounded. It is these people whom my heart is for, and I know the two of you would not put them in harm’s way. So, I am, with hesitation, on board.
I have a question. This comes not from a strong-faithed woman, but from a timid Canary who trusts in God for her courage: why would you believe that sending a letter describing our experiences won’t end up like the last meeting my husband and I attended, where it became about our sin? Has something changed that makes you hopeful that CJ won’t pull this one on us, that he will really listen? I think many of us just couldn’t go through all that again. Are the odds in our favor that we won’t get the “usual”, like a form letter telling us all about the doctrine of sin?
I know you aren’t prophets. I’m just asking plainly what you think the odds are, from your talk with the anonymous guy, to your gut feelings on the matter. I am going to pray with my husband about our participation. I know others must be praying, as well. This could be a big thing.
I’m sorry that, when your lives seemed so full, the Lord has given you more work to do. Thank you both.
To all who are considering sending their letters to CJ: this could be our way of putting wings to our prayers, so to speak. One last chance, one more time to try and get CJ to listen…this must be seriously prayed over. I got my name, “Canary”, from my family, because I tend to be discerning. I don’t smell any bad air, here. Go prayerfully, go cautiously, but this just might be a thing to be part of. There is no one to go to, above CJ. Let us see what his response is to being flooded with the same stories we have posted, here. Like someone said above, it could be a win/win scenario. There might be other believers who will be saved from going through what we went through, simply because God moves on CJ’s heart. Perhaps this Refuge can be a place of Reform, after all. We can only try.
If a timid, little, yellow canary can step out in this, I know that more of you can, as well. I guess it doesn’t just take courage. It will take faith.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
I suspect that the Reformed Big Dog is following these comments, and I am sure that it has to be astonishing and eye-opening to him that so many former SGMers and current SGM members are AFRAID to sent their stories to CJ, for fear of retribution or intimidation. Wow! If that doesn’t speak VOLUMES, I don’t know what would! Just the shear numbers of people with stories should raise all kinds of red flags for CJ, and all of the leadership team. It should break their hearts…..but that doesn’t seem to be the case with any of them. And that is heartbreaking.
God bless the RBD, and give him great discernment and prophetic insight as he takes on this difficult task.
I will be writing a letter…
May 28th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I have never been in SGM, so I’m not qualified to submit a letter of complaint. If I had been victimized, I wouldn’t hesitate to write. Please know that I’ll be praying fervently for all of you!
I see the involvement of a “Reformed Big Dog” as a direct answer to our collective prayers, and I understand why this individual would choose to remain anonymous at this time. RT, I too have a theory of who it is…
May God clearly guide each of you in your decision of whether to share your personal testimony about your SGM experiences, and may your words be in the center of His will. For those of you who have been deeply wounded, please realize that this opportunity may never come your way again . . .
Blessings and Godspeed!
May 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Jim and Carole–thanks for coordinating this, for the work it will take to format the stories, and for your transparency.
I know this will ultimately be a blessing to you. (key word: ultimately!)
May 28th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Well, in my opinion this is good news! I don’t have a story of great abuse to share (I thank God he brought us out before anything like that could happen) , mostly I suffered from bad teaching and general stuff in the way of detoxing or losing ‘friends’, none of whom were ever very close. If I had a story to add, I certainly would and I hope those who have suffered abuse will consider praying about this. If one RBD is willing to step in, be assured the rest probably know about this and are watching to see what happens. This is a chance for C.J. and other SGM big guys to show their true colors, whatever they may be… Or it is an opportunity for them to sincerely repent and humble themselves, we can always hope! I hope some will be able to make this decision based in faith and not fear, while being wise and careful and discerning at the same time. Praying for you all!
May 28th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
I was thinking that we should remember to add at the end of our letters how magnificent and faithful the Lord has been to carry us through the heartaches, the loss of faith, and the fears we experienced. He should get repeated glory for that!!!
May 28th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Closing comments. This is not a discussion to have online. If you’d like to participate, please send me an email, and I’ll fill in as many blanks as I can.
Please don’t drag this topic to another thread-I’ve really heard enough.
Please see the original post, as it’s been revised.