Unfortunately, his indwelling-sin/cross-alone focus for the past decade has resulted in the quashing of freedom, and its replacement with legalism, within many SGM churches. Plus, his experience of living the past 30 years as an “anchorite” within SGM walls has significantly eroded his ability to relate scriptural truth to the real-life situations of anyone who is not an SGM leader.

He also has leadership qualities similar to those of successful CEOs or sports coaches — he knows how to articulate goals, assemble a team of talented, intelligent people, delegate authority to them, and inspire teamwork to reach stated goals. His desire for excellence in all pursuits inspires people to give of themselves for the common goal.

Welcome!  I love the name!

Sometimes you really need to step back and out of a role or group or even ministry or denomination to see things more clearly. It doesn’t take long for some groups to become a little ingrown to become unhealthy.

“CJ is not an apostle ( office of ) nor do I think he particulary has apostolic gifting. Think of it this way. The apostle loves the church,the prophet loves God,the teacher loves the word,the pastor loves the sheep,the evangelist loves the lost”.

I couldn’t agree more.  An apostle loves the church as a father (Paul is full of it throughout the NT epistles).  I’ll never forget when I was in SGM in 2005 and Mahaney was invited to come to the Newfrontiers Brighton Leaders Conference (guest of Terry Virgo).  The church plant in Bristol were really excited because we genuinely thought that being the “father” of SGM – he would travel just a few more miles and visit “his” two churches in Bristol and Newport.

But he didn’t. 

Instead the pastors had to travel to Brighton to the conference to see him there.  Terry Virgo on the other hand regularly visits local church after local church associated with Newfrontiers – and doesn’t care about size.  If he can be there he will.

I think the problem is that Mahaney ISN’T and never was an apostle.  He was a “prophet” of sorts.  I’ve just found an old and interested magazine article that he wrote back in the 1980′s and I transcribed it here.  The article described him as;

“He serves in a prophetic ministry on Larry Tomczak’s apostolic team”.

Mahaney has a message.  He’s not a father.

http://www.ligonier.org/tablet.....n_Laodicea

This month’s Tabletalk is about the 7 churches. It’s a good read!

Enjoy!

thank you! that makes soooooooooo much more sense than the usual way I’ve heard it taught. It’s always helpful to have alot of context to be able to more fully understand Scripture.

Yes, it helps.  You don’t know how much.

“1. “You are not useful to Me as refreshing cold water to My body (church).” He is saying, “You don’t refresh those who are tired, weak and need of quenching of their soul through refreshing word of God.”
2. “You are not useful to Me as healing hot water to My body (church).” He is also saying, “You don’t restore (heal) those believers who are wounded, who are distraught, and need of healing.””

You don’t know how thirsty I was to hear the Word of God or how I needed restoration.

I think many Laodicean churches may easily slip into authoritarianism or abuse because when a member starts pointing out that the emperor has no clothes they don’t like it.  Rather than repent and work together in love, they become defensive and try to squelch.

   While CCEF may say ” legalism” try brainwashing when your in deep enough.   They don’t get it. Although if your cessionsit who knows maybe the realization that your wrong or have been taught wrong might be close. Or if your jewish being told Jesus isnt the messiah from birth….

   CJ is not an apostle ( office of ) nor do I think he particulary has apostolic gifting. Think of it this way. The apostle loves the church,the prophet loves God,the teacher loves the word,the pastor loves the sheep,the evangelist loves the lost.

5 fold ministry exists but not in the manner that SG is trying to hold onto. That is their biggest problem. It still need alot of tweeking.

I remember reading the article you mentioned on Calvary Chapel.  Power, even in the hands of spiritual leaders, can often become corrupt because of our sinful nature.  I agree with you that those who may leave SGM for another charismatic ministry may end up in a similar situation. 

You mentioned Ronald Enroth, the Christian expert who has written helpful books such as Recovering from Churches that Abuse.   I recently read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen, which I highly recommend!  I now have a much better understanding of authoritarianism as it relates to spiritual abuse.  It was written in 1991 and is still available!  That’s a clear indication that spiritual abuse is alive and well!!!

Here is something to chew on =)

The city of Laodicea prided itself on its financial wealth (the city rebuilt itself after a major earthquake without help from Rome), an extensive textile industry (its soft, black wool was internationally famous), and a popular eye salve (developed in connection with a renowned medical school).

The city also had a water problem. They received the medicinal hot water from Hieropolis, which provided healing and the cool drinking water of Colossae, ten miles on up the Lycus glen, which would provide refreshment. (Mounce, 17).

However, they also received a lukewarm water from Hieropolis spills over the cliff above the Lycus River and covers the wide escarpment with a layer of white mineral. By the time the water reaches the spillway, it has become lukewarm and is nauseous to the taste.
Observation:
Therefore, Laodicean believers readily understood what Jesus meant about the references to the water. They all knew three types of water:
Hot water – medicinal and healing
Cold water – refreshing and quenches the thirst.
Lukewarm water – nauseous, and absolutely useless to the person.

Upon this background Jesus writes this scathing letter to the church.
I. The meaning of the Lukewarm-ness.
There are two major views on this illustration.
A. View 1: Lukewarmness as lack of wholeheartedness.
1. This view holds that cold is direct contrast to hot. Meaning that “hot” is fervent for Christ, passionate for Christ, totally committed to Christ. They say that “cold” means “outright denial, absolutely unbeliever, and has no interest in Christ.”
2. Therefore, “lukewarm”-ness refers to the “half-hearted interest in Christ, compromising faith, faith without commitment, and external religion.”
3. In this case, then Jesus means “outright denial is better than phony piety (Orr).” Jesus demands “all or nothing” attitude here. And this has been the popular view among the believers. “Hot” is description of wholly committed believers, “cold” is description of Christ-denying unbelievers, and “lukewarm” is the description of half-hearted believers.
NOTE:
1. The problem with this particular view is that, it lacks Scriptural context. In the Scriptures, the adjective word, “hot” is never used positively. It has two different connotations: one is literally the hot temperature of something (i.e., oven, summer heat), but when it is used figuratively, it means “anger” (used of Moses, Ex. 11:8, “he went out from Pharaoh in hot anger”; see also Hosea 7:7).
2. The adjective word “cold” is also used differently in the Scriptures. It has three different usage: Literally, the cold temperature of something (i.e., ice, snow, winter), then figuratively, it is used as “refreshing and reviving element”, as in Proverb 25:13, “Like the cold of snow in the time of harvest is a faithful messenger to those who send him, for he refreshes the soul of his masters.” Again in 25:25, “Like a cold water to a weary soul, so is good news from a distant land.” So it is used in Matthew 10:42. But the word “cold” is used figuratively to mean “insensitivity” as in Matt. 24:12, “(in last days) most people’s love will grow cold.”
3. Therefore, the context of the Scripture gives us the clue as how to apply these terms. In Revelation, Jesus does not condemn either “hot” or “cold.” He only condemns the church for its “lukewarm-ness” He wishes His church to be either “hot” or “cold” (3:15). He wishes His church to be on outright denial of Him? I do not think so.
4. So Robert Mounce comments, “In an important article, Rudwick and Green argue that the adjectives ‘hot,’ ‘cold,’ and ‘lukewarm’ are not to be taken as describing the spiritual fervor (or lack of it) of people. The contrast is between the hot medicinal waters of Hieropolis and the cold, pure waters of Colossae. Thus the church in Laodicea ‘was providing neither refreshment for the spiritually weary, nor healing for the spiritually sick. It was totally ineffective, and thus distasteful to its Lord.’ On this interpretation the church is not being called to task for its spiritual temperature but for the barrenness of its works. Among the several advantages of this interpretation is the fact that it is no longer necessary to wonder why Christ would prefer the church to be ‘cold’ rather than ‘lukewarm.’ (Robert Mounce, The Book of Revelation, 125-26).”
5. Again elsewhere he also said, “The basic fault of the Laodicea church is that it is lukewarm. This has been understood to mean that spiritually the church was neither hot nor cold, but had settled for an insipid lukewarmness. It is regularly noted that several miles to the north of Laodicea, the hot mineral water from springs in Hieropolis spills over the cliff above the Lycus River and covers the wide escarpment with a layer of white mineral. By the time the water reaches the spillway, it has become lukewarm and is nauseous to the taste. The problem with this interpretation is the difficulty in understanding why it is better to be spiritually cold than lukewarm. The real contrast appears to be between the medicinal waters of Hieropolis, which would provide healing, and the cool drinking water of Colossae, ten miles on up the Lycus glen, which would provide refreshment. The Laodiceans were lukewarm in the sense that their Christianity provided neither healing for the spiritually sick nor refreshment for those who were spiritually weary” (What Are We Waiting For?: A Commentary on Revelation, p. 17).

B. View 2: Lukewarm-ness as uselessness due to self-blindness.
This brings to next view. This view simply says that “hot or cold” refers to two different kind of good functions. This view takes into account of cultural and geographical setting of the city. (As I said earlier) cool drinking water came from Colossae , that refreshed people from thirst. Also, hot medicinal water came from Hieropolis to heal and restore health. These hot and cold waters were useful. But lukewarm water was not. They were vomited out. Lukewarm water was not good for anything. In this background, the words of Jesus make more sense. He is saying:
1. “You are not useful to Me as refreshing cold water to My body (church).” He is saying, “You don’t refresh those who are tired, weak and need of quenching of their soul through refreshing word of God.”
2. “You are not useful to Me as healing hot water to My body (church).” He is also saying, “You don’t restore (heal) those believers who are wounded, who are distraught, and need of healing.”
3. The Laodicean church failed to refresh, revive, restore, the church and its members. They were not useful at all to Christ – in any shape or form.
4. “You are useless to Me, like a lukewarm water.” The church was so self-deceived and self-absorbed in their wealth and self-sufficiency, they were not useful to those who were hurt and need of healing. They lost the “saltiness” as Jesus said in Matthew 5:13.

Hope this helps. =)

In fact, I have to tell you this interpretation is exciting to me because it is lifting part of a burden from me.  It is causing many things I’ve seen to make sense.  It’s the last letter to the churches and it’s the most scathing, despite the wretched and evil things some of the other churches were doing.

I think my husband and I have been in Laodicean churches.  They were “orthodox”, rich and wealthy and would profess no need and it wouldn’t seem that zeal was part of the problem because they were busy doing things; however, as far as the impact of the Gospel in transforming and impacting lives within and without the church they were useless.  It was hard to get a handle on things and why they were the way they were. I felt like I was beating my head against the wall in any ministry I tried, while at the same time I wasn’t helped in my own weaknesses and I felt inadequate and inferior.

I went and looked up a one volume Bible commentary I have (The New Bible Commentary: Revised).  Because of its breadth there’s not always enough detail for me and to my surprise he (the Revelation section of the commentary was written by G. R. Beasley-Murray)  didn’t discuss cold-hot-lukewarm, but I did find this on Revelation 3:16:

“There is written a condemnation unequalled in the NT as an expression of the abhorrence of Christ.  The reference is to the last judgment (cf. Luke 13:25-28).”

It’s wierd how this continues to the degree it does. I mean Enroths book was written in early 90′s I think and yet we are still experiencing first hand accounts a decade later.

I just think its really important for blogs and apologetic ministrys to investigate. I wish I could say that the counseling ministries out there would help but I think it will be the later, that and maybe the IRS that will stop it eventually somehow.

Also for folks who leave SG to more ” charismatic ministrys ” really should be careful as they may end up back in the same situation. I am not a cessionist at all actually, but have seen most of the gifts in action in sheperding churches and some of the pentecostal influences from the Tennesee area. ( not sure why that is but it confuses me …)

Thank you for your encouraging, loving words and prayers and hugs!

Thank you for your comments regarding Laodicea in Revelation.  Wow, do they ever make sense.  I’ve heard of Robert Mounce–thank you for citing him.  I’d only heard the interpretation regarding neutrality & lack of zeal.  This interpretation really, really hits home.

Thank you for your gracious note. First off, I’m not condemning SGM. I’m not digging for anything, and only share a portion of what I know.

These are the facts regarding SGM:

Your extra-biblical view of pastoral and apostolic authority informs your polity.

Your polity is completely heterodox. You stand alone on the very fringe of historic Christianity in this regard. Your defense of your polity (Dave Harvey’s paper) only serves to make matters worse, exposing the unbiblical grounds for said polity.

Power leads to corruption. Such corruption has effected some pastors within SGM, which has lead to many cases of pastoral abuse. Abuse is a strong word. Please know that I use it in the context of abuse of athority. I’m sorry that I can’t give you an exact number. I’ll have to say, far too often.

I do have one question for you. You state that the majority of those who recently joined CLC will be there in 10 years. Do you have data to back that up? More specifically, do you have retention data regarding the youth of CLC? In the last 5 years, how many CLC youth group members have stayed in CLC beyond age 21?

This data exists. Tommy H has it.