I haven’t posted in a month. There’s plenty to talk about-The Sr Pastor in San Diego steps down in December due to the the very common Shank-ism- lack of gifting. Now he’s been regifted, and is again the sr pastor. Gifting in San Diego seems closely tied to the financial condition of the church.
Speaking of the apostle Shank, Gilbert seems to be in transition, as some high profile families leave the church, others have already left, and Rich seems to be flying by the seat of his pants. Rich is probably a good guy who can’t publicly communicate everything that’s going on behind the scenes. I don’t envy him.
CJ just came to town, and Dave Harvey will come in and do follow up.
Expect major changes in Gilbert, and in Shank’s region in general. I would guess that Steve will do what Brent did, and he’ll end up pastoring a church, maybe even Gilbert. Good move, as we know how well that worked out with Brent, who will probably leave SGM any day now. Correction-according to Brent, he is NOT leaving SGM. Correction-I was right the first time.
As I watch the SGM Shuffle, my eyes glaze over. This is the same old, same old, always couched in Biblical language, as SGM does what they do best-play church politics.
It’s become boring and predictable.
I’ve lost interest.
Does anyone want a blog?
I am with you, dear brother.
It seems like if one puts plain words down, there would be a reasonable response or at least an informed argument, which would involve biblical (actually from the Bible) foundations.
But instead you seem to have see-no-evil, hear-no-evil responses, emotionally based.
No one with any sort of SGM authority will deign to comment. Since the mark of an elder is his ability to teach, it seems as if they would be eager to engage and correct and teach, but all one hears is .zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz……………………………
You have had an impact on the church for good, though, Jim. If I were you, I’d probably sell/rent/give the site to someone else, too. But take with you the gratitude of many.
Sometimes we start something and intend it to go a certain way. When it spirals around and heads a different direction, with much good accomplished, you can be sure that God showed up.
RT-I started with hope for reform, and a desire to create a place of refuge.
I’ve lost hope for reform, and I feel that a website has limited value as a place of refuge.
Personal circumstances in my life has changed in the last year as well. I work a lot of hours, and don’t have the time to give this place the attention it deserves.
Did I mention that I’ve become bored with it all
Same story-different day.
The blog is not for sale-it’s free to the right person.
You interested?
Jim -
Thanks for making all this info available. I wish I would have found it and paid attention to it several years ago. The knowledge contained and pointed to here is helpful. I agree with you; like you and others I’ve hoped and prayed for reform from within SGM. I currently have no expectation of such change.
Who knows what could become of SS? He seems to have at a bare minimum allowed a huge mess to build up on his watch in the west; he probably has at least a few time bombs out there ticking away for him or his successor. It is hard to imagine him as going ala Brent; SS can wax eloquent about playing hoops back in the day with CJ and the Take and Give Gang. Don’t know if Brent has the same history with CJ & Co as SS. And we all know about CJ’s legend-in-my-own-mind-athletic-skills. Maybe that will be SGM’s best kept legacy – CJ’s humble proclamation of basketball prowess over two Southern Baptist theologians (Mohler and Dever) …
Anyway, whatever you decide, thanks for all you’ve done, Jim
newly,
You’re welcome. I was done a long time ago-I asked Protestant Knight to take the blog back in September. He took it for a while in March, but the blog boomeranged on me.
Whether we stay open or not depends on our readers. I’m seriously looking for a replacement.
BTW-we’re all friends here. I don’t mind saying in public what I’ve told many in private.
If those who would like the refuge to remain active would pray for a new host, I’d be grateful.
Please don’t ask God to change my mind
Dear Jim,
For those of us still “in” thank you for all that you do. If it you did not keep us informed then we would remain in the dark. We still haven’t officially left the Gilbert Church but we are prayerfully considering doing so…. unfortunately we seem to get no real information from our leaders… it is a shame….
Jim don’t lose heart…. you really are doing us all a good service.
Thank you
Jim,
I can understand your angst. I will be praying for you and Carole to find someone who the Lord can use to continue this blog. It has helped so many!
Can I ask about Brent? Why should you think he will leave SGM? I was in his church, and would be so grateful to hear any good news about him, like he has “seen the light” and won’t remain a part of SGM. Thanks.
Is there any fundamental difference between this blog and sgm survivors?
They seem to have lost hope for reform over there a while ago, so maybe if wounded refugees just want a place to sort it all out, you could combine the blogs?
I will say one thing about the future. We may be heading into an economic depression worse than the 30s. A whole lot of things are going to change out there in the body of Christ when massive numbers of tithes are lost.
Jim,
I am bored too, especially with the same old predictable responses from staunch SGM defenders from the ranks. In reply to their occasional drive-bys and rantings, it’s all I can do to not type, “ho hum, can’t you think of anything else to say…” But it doesn’t look like anyone still happily serving in SGM leadership will ever have the nerve, or probably better put, the respect for us, to make their case here.
As far as this being a real place of refuge, I understand your concerns there as well. But, you know, I was around at the beginning of this endeavor last year and I remember your hearts toward those who were/are hurting. I think of folks like Summer whose wounds were quite raw. I know there are many more like her who were helped by this blog and probably much of the most productive ministry has taken place privately, via emails and phone calls. Remembering my own sad SGM experience which sent my faith reeling for quite a few years, I can’t express to you how important I think it has been for exiting SGM members to have this information at their disposal. It would have aided me tremendously years ago to know that it wasn’t just me, that there was a nation-wide pattern to the errors. The confusion, the smokescreens, the doubt that can plague good people who are just trying to please God can be thick and hard to navigate through. Truth is, you and Carole have probably saved people YEARS of struggle trying to figure this all out. You have cared for God’s people.
Having said that, if it is time for you to lay this down, then so be it. There is a season for everything. It will be interesting to see how the Lord sorts this all out for you. I am happy to pray for His will to be known and done concerning this blog and our little community here. Thank you for all you’ve done. You and Carole have become very dear to me. Blessings!
Hi Sweet Gracie! You are very dear to both Jim and myself, too!
I think one of the most difficult aspects of hosting The Refuge, at least for me, is seeing the lack of concern and complete disregard from SGM leadership for those whose lives have been turned upside down and inside out due to their faulty polity and erroneous teachings. To know that what you espouse hurts the body of Christ and to continue on in their arrogance and pride is, to me, the height of being overconfident in themselves as opposed to having the utmost confidence in God and His Word, and a condescending, haughty attitude toward the “mere Christians” who support them.
This is not humility, no matter how you look at it, no matter how often SGM leaders tell you that it is and they ARE humble.
A glance in the dictionary proves otherwise…
5yearsinPDI,
You’ve asked a great question. Survivors is 8 months older than refuge, and my best guess is that their traffic is tree times higher than ours. If Guy would send me his host stats, I wouldn’t have to guess
. He’s humble about traffic, and sends me google analytic stats, which are helpful, but don’t tell the whole story.
It’s good having the two blogs for a few reasons. I’m a guy, who spends a lot of time on the phone with guys who find me here. Carole and I were insiders. I think I agree with SGM on more issues than Kris does. I speak to SGM, Kris speaks to her readers.
None of these differences make refuge “better” than survivors in any way. There’s a reason they have more traffic, and it’s not because they’ve been around longer. Kris is a clear thinker and an excellent communicator. I’m neither, although I have a lucid moment now and then. Kris is what a blogger should be, interacting daily on the blog. Guy understands the back end of the blog in a way that I never will.
We are in no sense of the word competing against each other, as I think we increase each others traffic. We communicate offline and like and respect each other. Carole and Kris email each other, and Guy is always very quick to say “how can I help”. God used survivors to help Carole and I sort through things after we left sgm.
So, I’m not sure we need both blogs, although I wish there were 20 blogs like survivors and refuge. John Immel is thinking deep thoughts (he can’t help himself
) over at spiritual tyranny, which causes many of us to think deeply.
Bottom line, I think this place is worth the effort. I just don’t have time for the effort, and I’m all about reconciliation and offline ministry/friendships. The blogs have had an impact, and there have been changes in the way some sgm leaders do things, possibly because of the potential for exposure. If I was a sgm pastor, I’d be more careful, knowing that an account of my actions could end up on a blog with more readers than sgm has members. i have given up hope for reform, and this is due to the actions of one man-CJ.
My hope would be that someone would come along and pick up where we leave off. If that doesn’t happen, at some point we’ll have to shut down. I’ll leave the site up, close comments, and point readers to survivors.
Please understand my primary problem. It’s not lost hope or a lack of care for those hurt by sgm. It’s not even the fact that sgm has become so predictable that they bore me. My enemy is time. I own my own business and work over 60 hours a week.
I think it’s time to go public with my request for a replacement.
I hope you are able to work out the admin details of Refuge, Jim. I do feel that it has a place. And I’m so grateful for it! You guys have been such a huge help to me as I’ve struggled to find “normal.”
On another note. I want to say something about Gilbert.
All of the problems at the Gilbert church rest solely on Steve Shank’s shoulders. Yes, Rich is the senior “pastor” and yes, there are other “pastors” on staff. But, Steve should be discerning enough to realize the legalism, haphazard dealing with the hearts of folks and purely anti-God-glorifying stuff that has gone on there at least as long as I’ve had experience there. Steve should have the gifting necessary to see that there was so much amiss. Especially since the “exodus” has been happening for years.
I just want to get that out there. I don’t know why CJ and Dave are needed there. I don’t know why the local “regional manager” has not been able to “manage” his “home church” better.
I am wondering if thre might be some small, minor “lack of gifting” there? I don’t know. Steve, you are very good at finding this “lack of gifting” in others. Have you searched yourself?
Sidney
Sidney,
I’m with you on Gilbert. Let’s not forget that it was not too long ago that Steve was one of the “fab four”-CJ, Brent, Steve, and Dave.
Hey, Jim,
I just had a great idea! If you do decide to stop Refuge blog, you could become Kris and Guy’s “counseling team.” Since you have so many years “inside” SGM and you have the different perspective, heck, why not?
What sort of training do you and Carole have?
Oh, you don’t need any!
hehe.
Sidney
Jim-
Thanks for the long and interesting reply. I will pray for God to clearly lead you. And on behalf of all the people you have helped, thanks for the time you have put into this.
“i have given up hope for reform, and this is due to the actions of one man-CJ.”
Yeah, we felt the same way. Truly sad, isn’t it……
Jim,
Can I ask about Brent? Why should you think he will leave SGM? I was in his church, and would be so grateful to hear any good news about him, like he has “seen the light” and won’t remain a part of SGM. Thanks.
canary,
Regarding Brent, I’m on sgm’s side regarding him. He’s a maverick, and not in a good way.
That is sad. He was an oober controller, and I was hoping that had changed. It is hard to believe that he could be leaving SGM, after he was such a strong part of it. He came in to our VA church in the early 80′s when SGM adopted us, and changed everything. I can’t imagine him as a “maverick” in a bad sense. But, since I don’t have details, I will just hope for the best. Even though my family suffered under the kind of control he promoted, I only wish he and his family well.
I have to say, seeing all these “oldies” part ways, and not on very good terms, makes me wonder why they don’t value their relationships more. Where is the love?
This blog has helped me quite a bit. Helped in ways differently than the Survivor’s blog does. Most especially helpful has been the information about what’s going on in the different churches, most especially the ones I used to attend. Knowing the craziness that goes on helps me put into perspective the craziness I saw and experienced. It helps me to know what to toss aside and what to keep.
Thank you, Jim. I hope you find someone to keep it rolling.
Jim,
I can say the same with a few non-denominational churches and AG affiliated mission ministries,YWAM too you name it. I guess after a while the language and manner of life just kind of bores me . I am so grateful I have a good job that keeps me grounded ,but any aspirations for ministry are seriously in doubt now. ( although as a woman that’s a no-no as far as SG is concerned anyway) Ethically how some of these pastors hold on for decades I don’t know.
I realize how important it is to pace your self. I just want to finish well. Finish period. I long for the day of His reappearing.
If you decide to let this blog go I am hopeful that in the next decade there will be some serious softening of how church gov’t is run I still think there is a huge need for cal-minian friendly healthy churches where gifts are in operation and that is egalitarian. Don’t give up. Maybe you can have a part in it. Just my 2 cents.
canary-Brent called someone I know today and stated that he was not leaving SGM.
Jim, thanks for all that you have done for so many. You have helped me so much in my time of transition and healing. It has been amazing to me to read how many people have observed the same things within their SGM church that I saw in my former SGM church. Simply amazing!!
Many people at SGC have told me how much they appreciate Refuge because they are able to find out what is really going on in the world of SGM. So many have had questions and they found answers here. Their eyes have been opened and Refuge played a big part in that. Thank you for hearing God and for obeying His calling. Thank you for loving His people! As much as I and others would miss you, please feel released and hear God’s words to you, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” You and Carole have played an important part in blowing the trumpet. If God is saying that your part is over, please feel His good pleasure for you. Blessings to you both.
Jim and Carole,
We are praying for you and the course of action for the Refuge. This we know—the Refuge has given a significantly needed voice to the many many people who have experienced manipulation,control, and the merry-go-round of pastors exercising their warped leadership over their congregants. The exposure of their exploits,we believe, has been a tool in Gods Hands as He is unveiling the injustices SGM propels under the guise of their erred doctrines. Paricularly, we were affected when someone like “Esther” came forward to tell her story —her character as a gentle and Godly woman came shining through when she articulated her documented series of events (and their abuse and discarding of her)– Thankyou for obeying God and taking the steps of faith to begin this blog—here on these pages there have been evidences of Light and Truth exposing the crooked polity of SGM. We pray Holy Spirit will awaken and shake them to SEE and HEAR…
I’m glad Brent clarified for us. Since we are no longer on the East Coast, we’re pretty disconnected from what happens. there.
Whew. I’m glad he clarified.
Sidney
Thanks Jim, for the update.
Jim, I’ve been thinking today about your situation. There has been so much said and resaid here that, even if you closed the Refuge, leaving up everything posted this past year, it will still help people. The words are “out there”. If you are unable to meet the demands of job and blog, it’s a no brainer as to what should go in your life. It can always be restarted in the future, if God chooses.
As my friend, Juli, says, “God can raise His own kids.” I am confident that the move in people’s hearts to follow after Jesus, and to find freedom from control, will still continue. There will be outlets that the Lord will set up for those still leaving SGM, those still hurting. He won’t let even one of His dear children slip through the cracks.
So, if you decide to close the blog to future posting, we will all be okay. No worries. You and Carole have been wonderful. Maybe it is time to bow out and follow a different path. Maybe it is time to “be released” (go ahead, RT. Blech and belch and burp – I just had to use that one for old times sake). From a grateful, little, yellow bird – Canary
Hi Jim,
I certainly understand where you find yourself in all of this. Thank you for investing so much of yourself in the effort to speak truth to and promote honest evaluation within SGM and the folks who live under its influence.
Did you receive my reply to your email last Tuesday? You know what great success I have had getting emails to you out of my account.
We deeply appreciate you and Carole and continue to pray for the Lord’s wisdom and direction as you go forward.
Hey, it’s Campfire Time!
Come join the family for toasting marshmellows a la Shankarama. Yup, we got no choice but to ask what the Shankmaster has been doing while the walls of every ministry fail in Gilbert? What was the Shankdude doing when the vibrant singles group was loosing momentum? Ah, and his very own cloth are a part of it, what does he care, cause there ain’t nobody worthy for his chilins.
The Gilbert church is taking many of the vibrant singles to Peroria. (can you smell Peroria from Gilbert, sorry, I mean, can you see people driving from each church back and forth to keep the thrill of ministry jumpin’?) Shankshark does that seem like your best idea?
When you are the Apostle over the area and it’s right in your home church and kitchen, pool, fire pit, front yard, back yard, driveway, basement, how do you miss the needs of the “local church”? Oh, that’s right, Shankstar is too busy traveling to California and Denver and San Fran and do you know the way to San Jose?
Gimme a break. What’s the excuse for the ShankhaveImetyoubeforeguy? Janishops has kept her man above water. Then comes DHarveyit’stimeforanewlocation.
DaveHarveycouldbewhat the Gilbert church needs for a few years to regroup, if Shankwhatwasyourname, gets sent back up to Denver.
Keep dem fires burning, I will keep readin’.
SGM Refuge is Boring
Jim on May 23rd, 2009
I haven’t posted in a month. There’s plenty to talk about- So instead- I’ll speculate and gossip and slander
Expect major changes in Gilbert, and in Shankville in general. I would guess that Steve will do what Brent did, and he’ll end up pastoring a church, maybe even Gilbert. Good move, as we know how well that worked out with Brent, who will probably leave SGM any day now. Correction-according to Brent, he is NOT leaving SGM.
Now is that a SURPRISE to you Jim? Brent has helped plant churches before, so why is this one different? And Why would you spread slander about him leaving SGM? It only helps stoke the fires that you enjoy spreading. Did Brent call you personally and say “Jim, you have it all wrong, please recant that LIE?”
One of Satan’s names is the SLANDERER you know?
And the jab at CJ “CJ just came to town, spending some time with the more wealthy families in the church-sorry if you weren’t invited.”
How low is that from a man that lives on the East Coast of Florida? You have the names of these “wealthy” folks that CJ talked with? You find out how much money he lined his pockets with? Look up slander, and libel – you fit the description. I AM picking a fight and you can TRY to eat my lunch but this last post deserves more than a red line through it. It deserves an out and out “Forgive me Brent for spreading gossip that was untrue, and forgive me CJ for speculating to my blog church that you are only concerned about money, without any proof.
As I watch the SGM Refuge Shuffle, my eyes glaze over. This is the same old, same old, always couched in Biblical language, as SGM Refuge does what they do best-play gossip and slander.
It’s become boring and predictable.
I’ve lost interest.
Does anyone want a blog? Anyone that agrees with Ji, that is, because anyone that disagrees is immediately tossed from the conversation like all cults treat dissent.
You’ve been man enough to repent when you’ve gone over the line before- now would be a good time to do it again.
There’s my lunch Jim -chew away
Paul
Entry Word:gossipFunction:verb Text: to relate sometimes questionable or secret information of a personal nature<likes to gossip with others about our neighbors’ arguments>Synonymsblab, talk, tattleRelated Wordsbandy (about), circulate, noise (about), rumor; disclose, divulge, reveal, tell; hint, imply, insinuate, intimate, let on, suggest; inform, report, snitch, squeal, tip (off); babble, spill; confide
Cowboy, well, whatever happens, you can be sure we won’t receive a straight answer… Spin will abound, like it did last week when Brian left.
I pray that people will continue to discern and follow the Holy Spirit’s leading to someplace healthier. May the exodus continue.
Thank you Jim and Carole for shedding light on what SGM meant to keep covered. You blog has been helpful to so many. I know for those that have been on here long, it gets boring and “same ol’, same ol”, but for those whose eyes are just now being opened… I am praying the others will rise up to continue the grueling, but necessary work that you all have started. I’m so thankful for both this site and Survivors.
But like Canary so wonderfully pointed out, God is in control and loves the sheep more than anyone else ever could.
Cowboy, I just had to add that I think you may have overstated it when saying that the Peoria plant is taking ‘many of the vibrant singles”. I can only think of 4 singles that are going and of those 4 two are engaged to be married. I don’t think that is the source of the problems in the singles ministry.
Paul,
I won’t try to eat your lunch online. I just gave you a call and left a message. It wasn’t to eat your lunch.
I would suggest that you explore the Biblical definitions of gossip and slander, rather than relying on the dictionary.
It actually is a great surprise to me that Brent is staying in SGM. I’ll tell you why offline, if you’re interested.
I wasn’t lying-Brent could have gone either way, as everyone close to the situation knows. He did not call me, although he should have. He did call a SGM pastor friend of mine, who called me to set the record straight, which I did.
You’re very angry, Paul. I understand, as I’m calling your mother ugly. I think we can dialog without yelling at each other. I hope so, anyway.
I would be careful expanding on what I say. I did not say that CJ lined his pockets in Gilbert. It is a fact that he met with a group of wealthy members while he was there. I have no idea why.
Taking Note-
I did receive your email. I’m slow to respond these days. I just sent you a note.
Cowboy
You’re like a…… “Hanging Chad”.
You punch and mean one thing then when looked at you mean something different.
You have not been to Gilbert in years yet from a far you’re an expert.
Did you say these things while you where here?
Does the word Hypocrite mean anything to you?
Questioning this blog-
Please use a real email address when posting here.
Questioning this blog – may I ask what makes you think that Cowboy has not been to Gilbert in years? I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that Cowboy was a close friend of someone in the Gilbert church and I don’t remember him ever suggesting that he did go there, although he may have visited or he may live close by.
Paul,
Can I show you to the restroom?
Also,
To whom it may concern, in some recent counseling sessions at Sovereign Grace Ministries, some very botched up situations were blamed by the SR pastor on Brent…
Thats funny to me, blame it on Brent,
But keep doing everything the way you always do it..
Recipe for disaster. Where? In the North, NO in the South…or is it All over Sovereign Grace?
HMMMM…..let me think…….ALL OVER SOVEREIGN GRACE!
I would like to ask a question to anyone from CCEF who may be reading this blog: Powlison, Tripp brothers, etc. do you know what is going on throughout Sovereign Grace Ministries? CJ is on your board and yet counseling abuses abound throughout his churches. CCEF: are you investigating this ministry? Please say yes, you are investigating…..
”Questioning this blog” Yeah, well.
Ya’ll been drinkin’ that Kool Aid I hear about in these parts?
I have one word for you to try to say, get yourself pumped up and ready…
here ya go:
spineless.
For all the rest there’s MasterTard.
Canary..you said – “As my friend, Juli, says, “God can raise His own kids.”
I have to clarify for the public record, that is a John Immel-ism….I can’t take credit, unfortunately, although I quote it often. He has too many good ones though, which all bear repeating!
Charlie – you must be reading along over at Tyranny if you saw the need to show Paul the restroom! hahahahaah
that was classic, my friend…bravo. now if only he would find his way over there…
Jim and Carole, about the blog….as Canary said, the comments remaining up are enough to allow people looking for answers to have the information they need. Even if it is not in “real time” anymore. I totally understand and appreciate your desire to find a replacement or close comments.
I’m so grateful to both of you…this blog was a critical step in me moving through some much needed grieving after I left SGM last year. I was blessed not to have to do it alone. I respect and love both of you very much. Stay in touch offline! ~ Juli
Jim, thanks for the 3 hour phone call last night (will send you my ear doctor bill)
Will continue to pray for all things to work together for the good in Christ Jesus,
Romans 8:28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.
Will continue to pray for all involved
In Jesus Christ,
Paul
Jim-
Although I am not a SGM or Ex-SGM member, I have to say that I was prevented from joining SGM through these sites. Without this site, I have most likely joined the process of Adoption to become a SGM church.
But not just that, I have learned many other peripheral issues that deal with SGM and churches in general — that no one church is above or better than another. If any local church is growing in the grace of God, it is by sheer God’s grace alone. It also continues to hammer in my heart this eternal promise: it is Christ who builds His church and not us (Matt. 16:18).
I was able to fellowship here with saints with no faces. I saw many (both Calvinists and non-Calvinists) whose heart is consumed with the love and the grace of God. I saw many who ache for the churches (whether SGM or otherwise) when they astray from the truth of the gospel.
I also know the weariness in this endeavor. It is indeed draining at times. But one thing I know Jim, that your labor was not and is not in vain. “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:58).
Grace to you and your family.
I like Paul Tripp but I don’t think he will come to your aid. Steve Arterburn might. CCEF and CBMW are pretty entrenched in all things complimentarain and reformed.
Trust the aplogetic forums and ministries to review the cases. There are thousands upon thousands of people who are familiar with shepherding mostly in the charismatic side of things that will see it.
We all know Cowboy doesn’t attend SGM, but has a friend who does, whom he is trying to help. Read the blog.
I AM BORED with those who post on here who have so many accusations to spread around, yet do not show any sympathy for those whose lives have been upturned by controlling leaders. Maybe it is time to suspend the Refuge in cyberspace. It has all been said, and will still help the wounded. More wounds inflicted by people who don’t show understanding, who have no idea what agony it is to have to choose between a church you’ve loved and Jesus + integrity, is just too much.
I am willing to set up an email address to take mail from those who still need to contact old PDI/SGM members for support. I’m sure there are other trusted posters who would do like-wise. There is no reasoning with posters who come on here only to blast and ruin what God is trying to accomplish in the one sheep He leaves the 99 for. There is still balm for the lost, for the wounded whose faith has been shattered by betrayal. We can still help them.
How many of us have avoided years of questions without answers, of pain without relief, of questioning our faith and what we once believed, because of the guidance of those who once walked the same road? Yes, God can raise His own kids (thanks, John Immel
), and we can help Him love on them.
All the chatter about Jim’s motives, Jim’s reasons for starting this blog, all the lack of true concern shown by drive-bys…why waste our time with that, anymore? Why can’t we just speak to the ones who are crying, desperate, and lost, who do not know which way to turn because the leaders they trusted lied, slandered, controlled, or shunned them because they dared to have a difference of opinion with the SGM machine? There is no reasoning with those who still drink the kool-aid. Most of them don’t want to gain insight but to challenge those who come against their beloved sect.
So, let’s help the ones who got run over. We cannot forget them! We cannot leave them to figure it all out on their own, when we have answers that will help them.
Jim, you and Carole seem to have lost hope that this blog will change SGM (correct me if I’m wrong). I have, as well. However, it will help those who have left or been driven away by the controlling ways of leaders who did not walk with wisdom or the Holy Spirit. So, whether the blog continues, or simply remains suspended, let it aid and comfort those who need it. The quest for reform has failed, for the moment. Let us truly be a refuge for those who are seeking the truth. I don’t know that “reform” and “refuge” can co-exist any longer.
Whatever decision you make, I’ll support. You’ve both done a wonderful job. I have grown so much in my faith by fellowshipping with the other believers, here. Thank you.
“Jim, thanks for the 3 hour phone call last night (will send you my ear doctor bill)”
…get a telephone head set….
Jim,
You edited my last post. I want others to know I was speaking to Paul B. in the first paragraph. Otherwise, it sounds a bit rude to the regular posters. Please make that clear. Thank you.
Fred-
re. CCEF…..
I realize anonymous comments on the internet are unprovable, but I will post this anyway. I am not able to give my name, or my source can be figured out by certain folks and I will not risk that.
Any SGMer who wanted to verify the truth of this could contact CCEF directly, and it is my earnest hope that such action might result in honest confrontation about some SGM problems. (The new director has only been there a few years and I don’t know how much he knows. This comment may refer to people who predate his arrival.)
During the past several years, more than one staff counselor at CCEF has had to help counselees who were damaged by SGM legalism. ( note- this is the only word I was told to my face, “legalism”….no comment on abusive authority for example. Just legalism). The person who told me also said they could not recommend SGM to people based on what they knew of CCEF counselees.
I am referring to STAFF COUNSELORS in the Glenside office…not just any old person who got did the CCEF certification program and counsels elsewhere.
So, please, do NOT pass judgement on CCEF, Tripps, or anybody in that crowd without clear knowledge of their personal position. I can assure you that at least some of them go so far as to warn people about SGM legalism problems, and counsel those who were damaged. ( I will say that Powlison’s name was not mentioned either way so I don’t know where he stands).
Canary,
It wasn’t Paul who addressed Cowboy.
Jim, Sorry I got my names mixed up. It was “Questioning this blog”. Thanks for the edit.
Thank you for your consideration!
To: All of you who have recalled my situation and my heart to help out a buddy.
You are very welcome, Cowboy. Helping a friend out is a part of the code, right? Hope your pal is doing well.
5yearsinPDI: You said, “So, please, do NOT pass judgement on CCEF, Tripps, or anybody in that crowd without clear knowledge of their personal position. I can assure you that at least some of them go so far as to warn people about SGM legalism problems, and counsel those who were damaged. ( I will say that Powlison’s name was not mentioned either way so I don’t know where he stands) in answer to my previous post:
“I would like to ask a question to anyone from CCEF who may be reading this blog: Powlison, Tripp brothers, etc. do you know what is going on throughout Sovereign Grace Ministries? CJ is on your board and yet counseling abuses abound throughout his churches. CCEF: are you investigating this ministry? Please say yes, you are investigating…..”
I am a little confused by your statement. Would you please tell me what I said that made you think that I was passing judgement on CCEF, Tripp and others because I absolutely was not. I was asking a question only, hoping that someone from CCEF was reading and would answer my question. CJ is on their board and I have often wondered if they know of the counseling abuses, wrong doctrine, etc. within SGM.
Canary, I am applauding your post of 12:58! Bravo, Bravo, Bravo! Well said!
Fred…..
the blogs kind of meld together in my memory but I know that somewhere ( probably over at survivors) there have been strong negative statements made about Tripps and others due to their alleged affiliation with CJ. I just was trying to set the record straight that at least some CCEF staff counselors were/are aware enough of SGM legalism problems that they had to work with counselees about it. Sorry if I implied any criticism of you- it was not my intention.
I think, until people begin the Matthew 18 process of taking others with them, and ask men of the stature of Tripp, Powlison, etc to be such persons, the national leaders we see affiliating with CJ on some level ( Duncan, Piper, Alcorn, Dever, etc) may have no idea. They see an enthusiatic guy who wants to have Reformed soteriology along with gifts a la Wayne Grudems Systematic theology, and admire that doctrinal position. They must believe the best, and probably assume that all churches have problems and the bloggers here are just too ( fill in the blank- critical, perfectionistic, unforgiving, unsubmitted, impatient, blah blah blah). I want to think the best of them and assume they have no idea of the heavy shepherding abusive authority.
Maybe if some of the national leaders got 1,000 letters apiece from 1,000 sheep who left SGM, they might start to consider the serious problems? Maybe if everybody who gets nowhere within SGM asks the big names to intervene, after several hundred requests they might start to think that maybe, just maybe, SGM is seriously hurting people? Maybe we are all wrong to just post online and not write to the big name guys??? I wonder.
Thanks 5 years. I do think you are right. We need to write to the big name guys.
It is curious to me that CCEF would have CJ on their board knowing about SGM’s legalism and abuses.
Fred – re-read To Reform or Not to Reform…that will answer your question about why CCEF still has CJ on the board while knowing about the abuses in SGM.
Re writing the “big dogs.” I have a “friend” who did that. Several “big dogs.” Not even a “form letter” response. This was when “Noel’s Story” was posted over at Survivors blog.
I really don’t think they care, sadly.
Just my naysay opinion…
Sidney
Sidney..unfortunately it is worse than they just don’t care…their silence indicates their agreement.
who would stand by and let someone be burned at the stake and say nothing unless you agreed with it? apathy is not an option.
Sidney,
I agree with your 5:35 in a sense. I think that CJ is probably one of the most persuasive men on the planet and is just so believable. I’m not sure if they don’t care, I think that they might think that these things can’t be true.
Juli-
You and I do not know what is going on behind the scenes. I don’t think we should assume that somebody who keeps silent in public is not right now in the process of expressing concerns. My husband has been in leadership in other churches, and we have seen situations where it took 2 or 4 years of serious behind the scenes work before problem men were removed from ministry.
I just want to be very careful about thinking anything critical of guys like Alcorn, Piper, Duncan, etc, without proof.
Some of the men on the CCEF board I know by reputation as truly godly men, and we do need to presume innocence until it is proven that they knowingly tolerate evil and incompetance. I think all them might do well to get a mailing with printouts of the best and finest postings that these blogs have to offer. If anybody has time, I suggest you or somebody work with Kris and Jim on a good selection and try mailing it to this list.
http://www.ccef.org/board-trustees
and this list on the left hand side ( Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals):
http://www.alliancenet.org/CC_.....ID,00.html
Add in Randy Alcorn, and Ken Sande of Peacemaker ministries.
I am serious here. I am swamped with homeschooling and I have put off a lot of things until summer so I don’t want to do it. But a cover letter to every guy on this list with the best documented abuses might be a good thing to do. Consider it a class action suit on behalf of hundreds and hundreds of people.
5yrs (& others) -
Hoo boy … Mt 18 … in my exodus from SGM and a SGc I suggested Mt 18 to an apostle to help bring “closure” (their word, not mine). In other words I was willing to submit to the apostle, pastor, staff on the basis of Mt 18, to hear them out. Guess what? The apostle agreed that was the way to go, then, a few days later, decided it wasn’t! What?! Then the SGc pastor weighed in and said the issues that he had with me weren’t Mt 18 issues – there was no sin – what?!!?. This was all very baffling to me – glad I have it all in emai! My accusers, some of whom were anonymous (plus I never had one “issue” identified to me), didn’t want to meet one to one – they wanted a group meeting! That is, a group of them and me solo.
I am sooooo glad to be free of SGM and my former church!
Jim,
I know I’m off the subject at this insert—but wondering…where is PK???? Would he be available to assist you on the Refuge??? Just a question as we are watching and praying…
Jim,
RE: “SGM is boring”, I would have to agree with you by adding my own reference to “there is nothing new under the sun”.
I have observed for many decades as a believer that the American Church (American Christians) are in danger of the Laodicean error. SGM is just one more in the series of examples.
SGM, thinking they have the secret formula to righteousness, have traded the Gospel for “another gospel” and have become lukewarm, wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. What’s worse, they don’t even know it.
I would personally expect SGM to reform just about as much as the Catholic Church reformed under Luther’s attempt, or the Pharisees to have become followers of Jesus.
The ministry here and at Survivor is well placed as a landing spot for those who “fall out” from SGM. It is not always a pleasant thing to be extracted by God from a dangerous place, but the healing is a process by which we all must learn to remember from where we came and why we are no longer there. The golden nuggets we now have, that are as refined by the fire, and are a form of wealth that no one can take away. I have found it far more pleasant to be disciplined by my Heavenly Father, than by some nutcase pastor in SGM.
Although I have come here quite recently since posting our story over on Survivor, I have enjoyed reading here. Jim, I understand just a little bit, how much time it takes to host a blog. If God wants refuge to continue, He will raise someone up to run it, or will have another blog fill in.
Thanks Jim for your ministry here and for your ministry to Defended and myself.
I have often thought of how much fun it would be to have everybody here get together someday, and fellowship God’s goodness in our lives, and then I catch myself and realize, that is exactly what will happen at the wedding feast.
Come quickly Lord Jesus!
~D
newlywndd,
At least your accusers were willing to meet with you. All of mine, and all of Carole’s wish to remain anonymous. I’m wondering what they are afraid of. I didn’t start this blog until June of 2008. I resigned from sgm in June 2006, while I’m told that my wife and I were being anonymously accused of sin, so they weren’t afraid of the blog.
I’m a massive 5’7″ tall, and I’m 50 years old. Maybe they were afraid I’d hurt someone.
I’m just going to have to take leadership’s word that they actually exist.
newlywndd,
Your story is almost exactly like ours.
It still amazes me at how similar are the stories of just about everyone coming out of SGM are.
~D
Jim,
all that header info in my 6:50 post, is that because I composed it in Word, and copy/pasted it here?
I never saw that before….
I’m not sure-I cleaned it up.
Defender – it is SAD that so many of the stories are similar …
Jim – my accusers really were NOT willing to meet with me; that was a charade to impress the apostle. I was available to meet for months and months after I quit my staff position and was stupid/naive enough to try meeting for nearly 2 months after I resigned from leadership. I was at church most Sundays, hiding in plain sight. These guys did NOT want to meet!
(And I’m over 50 … : )
For the record, Kris and I love us some Jim and Carole.
I understand the difficulties. A lot of what you see posted is just a thin film of what really goes on. There are literally THOUSANDS of emails that get sent. Surprisingly, the majority is from hurting, scared people that need help. Of course, we get my share of “slanderous, lying, etc” emails too. There are lots of folks out there that are trying (key word: trying) to make these sites go away, whether by hook or crook. Hasn’t worked yet. Jim, if Refuge went dark tomorrow, you can still declare victory in helping thousands.
It takes a toll. It really does. My dear wife (Kris) toils over every post and I see her riled up several times a day. I have a different perspective than she does, however (and much less grace)
Jim – whatever the decision you come to, you know you’ll get the support you need from these thousands of readers. You also know that you’ll always be a survivor to us.
Hang in there buddy – Guy
Jim.
you could be 9 feet tall and still be nothing more than another stupid, bullying Goliath, you know? You are SGM’s worst nightmare: you THINK for yourself and you CARE about others. That is all it takes to strike fear in them because they know they don’t control or own you. The more you talk, the more control they lose, and they know it. They have lost massive amounts of control over “their people” the past 18 months between these two blogs. THAT is the power of truth, information, and a willingness to think.
And even worse (for them) you have a sharp mind and a big heart and use them both for God’s glory and the freedom of everyone else. We have all benefitted as a result. Nothing was in vain.
and before you come back with your standard response about how you don’t have a sharp mind, you do Jim…just receive the compliment! haha :)
Juli -
Your assessment is right on – SGM and many SGc worst nightmare is someone who “THINK[s] for yourself and you CARE about others”. Well stated.
Defender,
Interesting you speak of the church at Laodicea. I remember a wonderful teaching Rich R, “SP” from Gilbert, AZ, did on this church. He was the first person who I’d heard explain what that “Lukewarm” thing was all about. It was so clear and so concise and it made so much sense to me. It is one of the teachings that had the most impact on me over the years because it revealed the Word to me in ways most others didn’t.
Funny you talk about it and funny he did that teaching. It was somewhere in the mid 2000s, though I don’t remember when.
I’d say that in the last 3-5 years, the Gilbert church has become that, just as you describe. I’d say that there has been a mass exodus (and many here familiar with that church will agree) from that church.
The irony of it is stunning.
Sidney
It would be the worse thing imaginable to be spit out of God’s mouth due to being lukewarm. May that never happen. To loose the presence of the Lord would be like, well…hell.
Being “lukewarm” could happen to all believers. It may happen to me and you. Sometimes, when we point out that others are lukewarm, there is a tendency to assume that we are not lukewarm.
But even those of us who may be lukewarm, we have a hope. For the Lord says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me” (Rev. 3:20).
This is the gospel invitation to lukewarm believers.
I haven’t been here in a while (we have had some difficult things we’re struggling through right now and I’ve had an overwhelming time), but I thought I would check in tonight.
Earlier Canary said, “Let us truly be a refuge for those who are seeking the truth.” I think that is what I found here in early winter. I have never been a part of a SGM church, but I have been through an abusive church situation. Many of the things I read here resonated with my own experiences.
Refuge and Survivors gave me a place to see that others had walked the same path. The lower traffic of Refuge did not feel so overwhelming to me. I had looked at some other church abuse sites, but these had the friendliest “feel” to me and were places where I felt I could share.
Authoritarian and abusive churches beat up the sheep. The duplicity and the lack of love are so harmful. Sad to say I still have not recovered my trust in the Lord and my relationship with Him. Truth and love took a hit and it’s been difficult for me to believe again in the faithfulness of God and to truly trust that underneath there are the everlasting arms.
I thank you for your ministry. I really do.
“This is the gospel invitation to lukewarm believers.”
Precisely!
I do not hold out hope (personally) for the organization, SGM, but one person at a time, now there is hope.
The thought of finding myself “Lukewarm” is a terrifying one.
It keeps me running back to scripture, and to my Lord.
(Can’t go to the cross. He’s not there, It’s empty.)
;>}
~D
when you’re hot, you’re hot
and when you’re not, you’re not!
haha
I’m sorry. I misunderstood what Defender was saying, perhaps. When Rich did the teaching, it was revolutionary to me because of the meaning of “lukewarm.” Here’s what Wiki says about it:
“I wish that you were cold or hot” (3:15–16)
It is thought that the Laodiceans were being critiqued for their neutrality or lack of zeal (hence “lukewarm”). Based on this understanding, the term Laodicean is used in some modernChristian circles to derisively refer to the neutral or indifferent.[citation needed]
However, some scholars have suggested that this metaphor has been drawn from the water supply of the city, which was lukewarm, in contrast to the hot springs at nearby Hierapolis and the pure water of Colossae (Barclay). The archaeology shows Laodicea had an aqueduct that probably carried water from hot mineral springs some five miles south, which would have become tepid before entering the city (see main Laodicea article). Strabo states that the water was hard, though drinkable.[citation needed] The imagery of the Laodicean aqueduct suggests not that “hot” is good and “cold” is bad, but that both hot and cold water are useful, whereas lukewarm water is useless.
The second paragraph is the theory he taught. He talked about the nearby cities who had nothing monetary, but one had a hot spring (balm, healing, comforting) and the other had pure, cold water (refreshing, useful). So, he said Laodicea had this dank, disgusting water, but the others had hot or cold, thus they were able to heal, comfort, refresh, care for.
Rich said that the first paragraph above would have been a kind of ‘basic’ understanding of the church’s description.
[edit]“Poor, blind, and naked” (3:17–18)
The words attributed to the Laodiceans obviously mark an ironic over-confidence in regard to spiritual wealth. They, unlike the Christ who knows, are unable to recognise their bankruptcy. However the image may also be drawing on the perceived worldly wealth of the city.
The reference to eye medication is again often thought to reflect the historical situation of Laodicea. According to Strabo (12.8.20) there was a medical school in the city, where a famous ophthalmologist practiced. The city also lies within the boundaries of ancient Phrygia, from where an ingredient of eye-lotions, the so-called “Phrygian powder”, was supposed to have originated.
This section went hand-in-hand with the water. The Laodicean church had much wealth. Medical school; highly educated, highly wealthy, tons of money was there. Tons of stuff, money, education.
According to Rich’s teaching, the Laodicean church was neither hot (good) nor cold (good) but lukewarm (worthless), but they didn’t even know it cuz they were so busy being wealthy and educated and gaining more stuff.
That’s what I was talking about. I’m sorry to have seemed like I was judging their salvation. I wouldn’t do that. I wasn’t even judgint their heart. I’m talking about the current outward fruit. And the outward fruit I received when I was there.
Sidney
INC said,
“Refuge and Survivors gave me a place to see that others had walked the same path.”
INC,
Your testimony doesn’t surprise me. With all the so-called Christian “coalitions” and “alliances” among pastors nationwide, these ‘authoritarian’ ideas are being shared and then implemented. C.J. Mahaney is rubbing elbows with the best of them, and I fear that some pastors in these networks are implementing SGM strategies in their own churches.
I have observed some SGM techniques being used in one of the larger Southern Baptist churches in my area. The senior pastor at that church admits to being friends with C.J. And just how have they become friends? Both are members of the Gospel Coalition, and this Baptist pastor is a trustee at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (Louisville, KY) where C.J. Mahaney is idolized. He’s contributed over $100,000 cumulatively to this Baptist seminary. It’s odd because SGM isn’t a Southern Baptist organization.
There’s no question that authoritarianism is on the rise in churches throughout Christendom, and it deeply troubles me. That’s why SGM Refuge is so very important in getting the truth out!!!
INC,
It’s good to see you! I understand, though it breaks my heart, when you say you have not recovered your trust in the Lord and your relationship with Him yet. Truth, love AND your faith have taken a hit. That’s ultimately where the battle lines are drawn IMO. Your faith, your simple, childlike, pure faith in the Lord, more precious in the eyes of the Lord than any earthly treasure, faith that draws you into intimacy with Him, has been shaken. I remember. Oh, I so remember. There was a time I couldn’t utter a prayer, I couldn’t sing a song of worship, I couldn’t read His Word; I was in trouble spiritually.
But God! Slowly but faithfully, He met me. I remember that as well. Tenderly, lovingly, patiently, He met me. I weep to think of it even now, 20 years later. A word from a stranger, an unexpected kindness, encouragement from a book, the prayers of a friend, and most profoundly, His own love and acceptance massaged into my spirit on a regular basis. He is near, INC. He is among us. Praise His Name!
You are in my prayers this day. Blessings in Jesus.
Everyone has been very kind, in comments and emails.
Thank you so much!
Giving up hope for real reform within SGM in the near future is not incredibly discouraging. I didn’t expect CJ to read the blog and say, “wow, you’re right-I’m stepping down.” People he respects have brought concerns to him for years.
I’m told that there have been positive changes in the way some sgm pastors interact with the flock. I would be much more inclined to encourage someone to try and reopen dialog with their pastor now than I would have a year ago.
Carole and I are not downtrodden or disappointed. Survivors and refuge got their attention. Some sgm pastors’ private response to the blogs would be, “what can we learn from this?”. This is encouraging.
My boredom is with the spin. It’s just the same old.
I am not bored, or disinterested in the lives of those hurt by sgm. I hope no one interpreted my post in that way. There is not a shred of “ho hum, another beaten sheep”. Our love and concern for you has not diminished in any way.
I just want to be clear on that.
Our problem is time.
Can someone clarify for me what is going on with Brent D. He has been such a major player in SGM all these years and I find it hard to believe that he would be ousted or just walk away. He was sent in to our church many years ago to set things in order and now he is pastoring in Charlotte where some of our long time friends are members. I haven’t heard anything about changes concerning him from my friends so what is going on?!
Okay Juli,
“when you’re hot, you’re hot
and when you’re not, you’re not!”
THAT’S FUNNY!
(Now I got that song in my head and I can’t get it out.)
~D
Wanda: There’s no question that authoritarianism is on the rise in churches throughout Christendom, and it deeply troubles me. That’s why SGM Refuge is so very important in getting the truth out!!!
We need servant-leaders so badly.
Gracie, thank you. You describe my own journey. I so appreciate your understanding, care and prayers.
Sidney,
your understanding of the “lukewarm” is the correct one. Rich has taught it well. For most part, many understood “hot” as “passion for Christ” and “cold” as “indifference to Christ” and “lukewarm” as “compromising, not committed, etc…” Popular preachers regard it that way and even historically.
I too was floored when I read, Robert Mounce’s commentaries, “What Are We Waiting For? A Commentary on Revelation” (p. 17) and “The Book of Revelation” (pp. 125-26) on Laodicean church. He holds this view. “lukewarm” means “useless to Christ” basically, Laodiceans were not as “medicinal and healing” as a church like a “hot water” or “refreshing and quenching the thirst” like a “cold water” BUT lukewarm water caused “nausea and was absolutely useless to a person.”
So Jesus was rebuking Laodiceans as “useless church” becasue she was neither healing others nor refreshing others in her ministry. Rather they became deceived due to their self-sufficiency and pride (cf. Obadiah 1:3).
I also did some study on the terms “cold and hot” and generally “cold” has been used more positively than the “hot.”
Mack,
According to Brent, who left a voicemail message for a friend of mine Sunday, he is neither being ousted nor is he leaving SGM. There were some issues at Grace, but apparently everything has been worked out.
I’m no fan of the nauseating (to me) verbiage used in reference to Brent’s “church plant”, but I see this as SGM’s system working.
doulos,
Your comments are always very helpful.
Would you like a blog?
Hi Jim!
Thanks for the invite, but I am not qualified =)
I am not an Ex-SGM member… also my church planting will begin next month in earnest.
NEway, I always enjoy reading the posts here. It is good to see fellow brothers and sisters in Christ mutually edifying each other.
You the man, Jim!
Greetings Jim,
Our personal relationship with the risen savior Jesus is first and foremost above and beyond all else. This is what we have in common, beside that fact that I am also 5’7″ and 50.
Bring on the impartial, unbiased investigation. I would like to hear how many cases of real, verified instances of deliberate pastoral abuse there have been. While even one case is tragic and heartbreaking, has there been enough cases to justify the condemnation of the entire SGM ministry?
I believe that just because there exists an unresolved conflict and pain involved, does not automatically mean that there has been pastoral abuse. Each case must be carefully investigated, hearing from all persons directly involved, including the pastors.
Does anyone know how many serious conflicts involving pasoral leadership have been successfully resolved? How does this number compare to the number of real, confirmed, unsuccessful cases? Enough to condemn SGM and all that it is and does?
I have been around thirty years and have heard and personally know of hundreds of testimonies of the grace and amazing works of God from members of my SGM church. I have been involved in a few counselling cases with pastors, on both the assisting and recieving ends. All have been successful.
In my own personal Bible study, I have prayerfully considered the “obey your pastor” verse. I see this to be pretty clear and direct. The early church was devoted to the apostle’s teaching. I believe it and obey my pastors, but not in the extreme, over-the-top manner as described here. My first priority is my relationship with Jesus and following and obeying him. Everyone of my pastors would agree with this statement.
Legalism is a matter of one’s heart. I do nothing to add to my salvation. I do nothing to earn anything from God. Jesus did it all on the cross, once and for all. This is how I live my life, and why I came to SGM thirty years ago. Still holds true today.
My friend, whom I knew before he became a Christian, was called into ministry. After some personal study and internships, he now leads a Baptist church. I regularly get a newsletter filled with great things the Lord is doing there. It is such a blessing to read these testimonies of His grace. Now then, should I start a blog and condemn his chuch because he uses the KJ bible, complete with thees, thous, and wherefores? What about his daughters? They are required to wear only feminine clothing (dresses). And they all are avid hunters. I could really stir up some issues there. I’m sure I could dig and find more.
OR maybe I will simply rejoice and praise God for the great work he is doing there. This is what I will do. Forget I asked. I look forward to visiting his church someday and worshipping the Lord with him.
Sin easily entangles us when we choose to sin. It hurts our relationship with God and with others. This is why we apply God’s Word to our lives even in this area, for in ALL that we do, whatever it is, do it to glorify God.
CJ is not perfect and regularly says so. I see the imperfections. I do not idolize him or worship him. I respect him for his example as a biblical, radical, genuine, and passionate lover of Jesus. I respect him for his real, uncompromising, humble leadership.
150 folks joined CLC recently, including my daughter. Ages range 16-64. Representing 20+ countries. Some are new Christians, some for many years. While numerical growth does equal God’s blessing, on the other hand, why would these people join a church that is described on these blogs? They have all been through the intro class, been interviewed by a pastor, and hopefully have talked with folks to find out what goes on here at CLC. They came because they believe in their hearts that this is where God wants them to be. Ten years from now, most will still be here, serving the Lord and the folks He has joined them to.
Thank you for listening. In his grace………….30years
Congrats on the church plant.
We should all remember to pray for doulos-he’s one of the good guys.
Jim,
I don’t think any of us here question you and Carole’s love and concern for those who post, here. It has always been very evident!
Sidney, that was a very good in-depth look at the hot-nor-cold meaning. It is a good reminder to us all.
Inc, I’m lifting you up to the Lord, today. Gracie’s experience is like many of us “oldies”, and she says it so well. Rest in the Lord. He will reach out to you, as He always leaves the 99 healthy sheep to go after the one that is wounded. You can depend on it! Big, big hug…
30 years,
Thank you for your gracious note. First off, I’m not condemning SGM. I’m not digging for anything, and only share a portion of what I know.
These are the facts regarding SGM:
Your extra-biblical view of pastoral and apostolic authority informs your polity.
Your polity is completely heterodox. You stand alone on the very fringe of historic Christianity in this regard. Your defense of your polity (Dave Harvey’s paper) only serves to make matters worse, exposing the unbiblical grounds for said polity.
Power leads to corruption. Such corruption has effected some pastors within SGM, which has lead to many cases of pastoral abuse. Abuse is a strong word. Please know that I use it in the context of abuse of athority. I’m sorry that I can’t give you an exact number. I’ll have to say, far too often.
I do have one question for you. You state that the majority of those who recently joined CLC will be there in 10 years. Do you have data to back that up? More specifically, do you have retention data regarding the youth of CLC? In the last 5 years, how many CLC youth group members have stayed in CLC beyond age 21?
This data exists. Tommy H has it.
Sidney & doulos,
Thank you for your comments regarding Laodicea in Revelation. Wow, do they ever make sense. I’ve heard of Robert Mounce–thank you for citing him. I’d only heard the interpretation regarding neutrality & lack of zeal. This interpretation really, really hits home.
Canary,
Thank you for your encouraging, loving words and prayers and hugs!
Wanda,
Christianity Today did a nice piece last year or two years ago on problems Calvary Chapels have had with “Moses Model” style gov’ts.
It’s wierd how this continues to the degree it does. I mean Enroths book was written in early 90′s I think and yet we are still experiencing first hand accounts a decade later.
I just think its really important for blogs and apologetic ministrys to investigate. I wish I could say that the counseling ministries out there would help but I think it will be the later, that and maybe the IRS that will stop it eventually somehow.
Also for folks who leave SG to more ” charismatic ministrys ” really should be careful as they may end up back in the same situation. I am not a cessionist at all actually, but have seen most of the gifts in action in sheperding churches and some of the pentecostal influences from the Tennesee area. ( not sure why that is but it confuses me …)
Sidney & doulos,
In fact, I have to tell you this interpretation is exciting to me because it is lifting part of a burden from me. It is causing many things I’ve seen to make sense. It’s the last letter to the churches and it’s the most scathing, despite the wretched and evil things some of the other churches were doing.
I think my husband and I have been in Laodicean churches. They were “orthodox”, rich and wealthy and would profess no need and it wouldn’t seem that zeal was part of the problem because they were busy doing things; however, as far as the impact of the Gospel in transforming and impacting lives within and without the church they were useless. It was hard to get a handle on things and why they were the way they were. I felt like I was beating my head against the wall in any ministry I tried, while at the same time I wasn’t helped in my own weaknesses and I felt inadequate and inferior.
I went and looked up a one volume Bible commentary I have (The New Bible Commentary: Revised). Because of its breadth there’s not always enough detail for me and to my surprise he (the Revelation section of the commentary was written by G. R. Beasley-Murray) didn’t discuss cold-hot-lukewarm, but I did find this on Revelation 3:16:
“There is written a condemnation unequalled in the NT as an expression of the abhorrence of Christ. The reference is to the last judgment (cf. Luke 13:25-28).”
INC –
Here is something to chew on =)
The city of Laodicea prided itself on its financial wealth (the city rebuilt itself after a major earthquake without help from Rome), an extensive textile industry (its soft, black wool was internationally famous), and a popular eye salve (developed in connection with a renowned medical school).
The city also had a water problem. They received the medicinal hot water from Hieropolis, which provided healing and the cool drinking water of Colossae, ten miles on up the Lycus glen, which would provide refreshment. (Mounce, 17).
However, they also received a lukewarm water from Hieropolis spills over the cliff above the Lycus River and covers the wide escarpment with a layer of white mineral. By the time the water reaches the spillway, it has become lukewarm and is nauseous to the taste.
Observation:
Therefore, Laodicean believers readily understood what Jesus meant about the references to the water. They all knew three types of water:
Hot water – medicinal and healing
Cold water – refreshing and quenches the thirst.
Lukewarm water – nauseous, and absolutely useless to the person.
Upon this background Jesus writes this scathing letter to the church.
I. The meaning of the Lukewarm-ness.
There are two major views on this illustration.
A. View 1: Lukewarmness as lack of wholeheartedness.
1. This view holds that cold is direct contrast to hot. Meaning that “hot” is fervent for Christ, passionate for Christ, totally committed to Christ. They say that “cold” means “outright denial, absolutely unbeliever, and has no interest in Christ.”
2. Therefore, “lukewarm”-ness refers to the “half-hearted interest in Christ, compromising faith, faith without commitment, and external religion.”
3. In this case, then Jesus means “outright denial is better than phony piety (Orr).” Jesus demands “all or nothing” attitude here. And this has been the popular view among the believers. “Hot” is description of wholly committed believers, “cold” is description of Christ-denying unbelievers, and “lukewarm” is the description of half-hearted believers.
NOTE:
1. The problem with this particular view is that, it lacks Scriptural context. In the Scriptures, the adjective word, “hot” is never used positively. It has two different connotations: one is literally the hot temperature of something (i.e., oven, summer heat), but when it is used figuratively, it means “anger” (used of Moses, Ex. 11:8, “he went out from Pharaoh in hot anger”; see also Hosea 7:7).
2. The adjective word “cold” is also used differently in the Scriptures. It has three different usage: Literally, the cold temperature of something (i.e., ice, snow, winter), then figuratively, it is used as “refreshing and reviving element”, as in Proverb 25:13, “Like the cold of snow in the time of harvest is a faithful messenger to those who send him, for he refreshes the soul of his masters.” Again in 25:25, “Like a cold water to a weary soul, so is good news from a distant land.” So it is used in Matthew 10:42. But the word “cold” is used figuratively to mean “insensitivity” as in Matt. 24:12, “(in last days) most people’s love will grow cold.”
3. Therefore, the context of the Scripture gives us the clue as how to apply these terms. In Revelation, Jesus does not condemn either “hot” or “cold.” He only condemns the church for its “lukewarm-ness” He wishes His church to be either “hot” or “cold” (3:15). He wishes His church to be on outright denial of Him? I do not think so.
4. So Robert Mounce comments, “In an important article, Rudwick and Green argue that the adjectives ‘hot,’ ‘cold,’ and ‘lukewarm’ are not to be taken as describing the spiritual fervor (or lack of it) of people. The contrast is between the hot medicinal waters of Hieropolis and the cold, pure waters of Colossae. Thus the church in Laodicea ‘was providing neither refreshment for the spiritually weary, nor healing for the spiritually sick. It was totally ineffective, and thus distasteful to its Lord.’ On this interpretation the church is not being called to task for its spiritual temperature but for the barrenness of its works. Among the several advantages of this interpretation is the fact that it is no longer necessary to wonder why Christ would prefer the church to be ‘cold’ rather than ‘lukewarm.’ (Robert Mounce, The Book of Revelation, 125-26).”
5. Again elsewhere he also said, “The basic fault of the Laodicea church is that it is lukewarm. This has been understood to mean that spiritually the church was neither hot nor cold, but had settled for an insipid lukewarmness. It is regularly noted that several miles to the north of Laodicea, the hot mineral water from springs in Hieropolis spills over the cliff above the Lycus River and covers the wide escarpment with a layer of white mineral. By the time the water reaches the spillway, it has become lukewarm and is nauseous to the taste. The problem with this interpretation is the difficulty in understanding why it is better to be spiritually cold than lukewarm. The real contrast appears to be between the medicinal waters of Hieropolis, which would provide healing, and the cool drinking water of Colossae, ten miles on up the Lycus glen, which would provide refreshment. The Laodiceans were lukewarm in the sense that their Christianity provided neither healing for the spiritually sick nor refreshment for those who were spiritually weary” (What Are We Waiting For?: A Commentary on Revelation, p. 17).
B. View 2: Lukewarm-ness as uselessness due to self-blindness.
This brings to next view. This view simply says that “hot or cold” refers to two different kind of good functions. This view takes into account of cultural and geographical setting of the city. (As I said earlier) cool drinking water came from Colossae , that refreshed people from thirst. Also, hot medicinal water came from Hieropolis to heal and restore health. These hot and cold waters were useful. But lukewarm water was not. They were vomited out. Lukewarm water was not good for anything. In this background, the words of Jesus make more sense. He is saying:
1. “You are not useful to Me as refreshing cold water to My body (church).” He is saying, “You don’t refresh those who are tired, weak and need of quenching of their soul through refreshing word of God.”
2. “You are not useful to Me as healing hot water to My body (church).” He is also saying, “You don’t restore (heal) those believers who are wounded, who are distraught, and need of healing.”
3. The Laodicean church failed to refresh, revive, restore, the church and its members. They were not useful at all to Christ – in any shape or form.
4. “You are useless to Me, like a lukewarm water.” The church was so self-deceived and self-absorbed in their wealth and self-sufficiency, they were not useful to those who were hurt and need of healing. They lost the “saltiness” as Jesus said in Matthew 5:13.
Hope this helps. =)
Debbie,
I remember reading the article you mentioned on Calvary Chapel. Power, even in the hands of spiritual leaders, can often become corrupt because of our sinful nature. I agree with you that those who may leave SGM for another charismatic ministry may end up in a similar situation.
You mentioned Ronald Enroth, the Christian expert who has written helpful books such as Recovering from Churches that Abuse. I recently read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen, which I highly recommend! I now have a much better understanding of authoritarianism as it relates to spiritual abuse. It was written in 1991 and is still available! That’s a clear indication that spiritual abuse is alive and well!!!
To be blunt,
CJ is not an apostle ( office of ) nor do I think he particulary has apostolic gifting. Think of it this way. The apostle loves the church,the prophet loves God,the teacher loves the word,the pastor loves the sheep,the evangelist loves the lost.
5 fold ministry exists but not in the manner that SG is trying to hold onto. That is their biggest problem. It still need alot of tweeking.
one more thought,
While CCEF may say ” legalism” try brainwashing when your in deep enough. They don’t get it. Although if your cessionsit who knows maybe the realization that your wrong or have been taught wrong might be close. Or if your jewish being told Jesus isnt the messiah from birth….
Or that women can’t teach men or they need to wear a burqa so men aren’t tempted…. or….
doulos,
Yes, it helps. You don’t know how much.
“1. “You are not useful to Me as refreshing cold water to My body (church).” He is saying, “You don’t refresh those who are tired, weak and need of quenching of their soul through refreshing word of God.”
2. “You are not useful to Me as healing hot water to My body (church).” He is also saying, “You don’t restore (heal) those believers who are wounded, who are distraught, and need of healing.””
You don’t know how thirsty I was to hear the Word of God or how I needed restoration.
I think many Laodicean churches may easily slip into authoritarianism or abuse because when a member starts pointing out that the emperor has no clothes they don’t like it. Rather than repent and work together in love, they become defensive and try to squelch.
How about maybe a “team” approach to the blog? I’ve seen it on other blogs, and then that way it’s not all on one or two people. I haven’t been posting much lately, but I’m always reading and I would severely miss the Refuge.
doulos,
thank you! that makes soooooooooo much more sense than the usual way I’ve heard it taught. It’s always helpful to have alot of context to be able to more fully understand Scripture.
For another article on the church at Laodicea:
http://www.ligonier.org/tablet.....n_Laodicea
This month’s Tabletalk is about the 7 churches. It’s a good read!
Enjoy!
Debbie, you made a key point;
“CJ is not an apostle ( office of ) nor do I think he particulary has apostolic gifting. Think of it this way. The apostle loves the church,the prophet loves God,the teacher loves the word,the pastor loves the sheep,the evangelist loves the lost”.
I couldn’t agree more. An apostle loves the church as a father (Paul is full of it throughout the NT epistles). I’ll never forget when I was in SGM in 2005 and Mahaney was invited to come to the Newfrontiers Brighton Leaders Conference (guest of Terry Virgo). The church plant in Bristol were really excited because we genuinely thought that being the “father” of SGM – he would travel just a few more miles and visit “his” two churches in Bristol and Newport.
But he didn’t.
Instead the pastors had to travel to Brighton to the conference to see him there. Terry Virgo on the other hand regularly visits local church after local church associated with Newfrontiers – and doesn’t care about size. If he can be there he will.
I think the problem is that Mahaney ISN’T and never was an apostle. He was a “prophet” of sorts. I’ve just found an old and interested magazine article that he wrote back in the 1980′s and I transcribed it here. The article described him as;
“He serves in a prophetic ministry on Larry Tomczak’s apostolic team”.
Mahaney has a message. He’s not a father.
I feel like I wan’t to say that since CJ’s conversion like the rest of us he was ” groomed” to fit a ceratin role that people “prophesied” about him when in actuality his gifting might be that of a teacher. I don’t doubt that he has spiritual gifting in some areas as the Lord leads.
Sometimes you really need to step back and out of a role or group or even ministry or denomination to see things more clearly. It doesn’t take long for some groups to become a little ingrown to become unhealthy.
I thought I sent my story in the comments section a couple of days ago. Did you receive it?
If you think it would be better not to print it, or not to print it as is, that is fine with me, please just let me know. Thanks.
no longer so chicken,
Welcome! I love the name!
Mahaney’s primary gift is exhortation, with the goal of encouraging believers to grow in Christ-likeness. He used to be quite effective at this, in the TAG and early PDI days.
Unfortunately, his indwelling-sin/cross-alone focus for the past decade has resulted in the quashing of freedom, and its replacement with legalism, within many SGM churches. Plus, his experience of living the past 30 years as an “anchorite” within SGM walls has significantly eroded his ability to relate scriptural truth to the real-life situations of anyone who is not an SGM leader.
He also has leadership qualities similar to those of successful CEOs or sports coaches — he knows how to articulate goals, assemble a team of talented, intelligent people, delegate authority to them, and inspire teamwork to reach stated goals. His desire for excellence in all pursuits inspires people to give of themselves for the common goal.