You crack us all up!

Certainly there is NOTHING wrong with education.  Being taught by other older, wiser believers is a plus for any man or woman going into ministry.  However, if a person is called to lead a church, it would be a good thing that he also be full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit.  Just my birdseed take on scripture. 

It’s not like they considered taking courses at Pharisee U but missed the deadline. Besides, Pharisee U only offered Law Degrees (haha I crack myself up)

People back then went to school or studied in order to become proficient in their jobs, and they continue to do so today. Yet, just because the disciples and Jesus didn’t attend seminary, some erroneously conclude that to be like Jesus, all you need is to read the bible, be “gifted”, and you’re good to go!

“Counseling? No problem-o. I can handle that! I’m sure that if I just rely upon my “gifting” I’ll know what to say! Also, no matter what I say, I have the “authority” to speak into people’s lives because…of….of….some vague reason!

Let’s pretend SGM Pastor X hired some Y-Guy to build his house. The Y-Guy had lived in houses all his life – been in basements, bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. He knew his way around the inside of a house,  and he knew that a house needed plumbing, electricity, windows, flooring, walls and ceilings, etc. So, since Y-Guy knew enough about the basic requirements of a house, why would he not be qualified to build Pastor X a house himself?

Heck, if Pastor X can go in and start speaking into people’s lives with all sorts of ideas about different things without having expertise in those areas, why can’t a guy start building a house for an SGM Pastor based on those same assumptions? Why must Pastor X understand the intricacies of the human mind, spirit and soul if Y-Guy doesn’t need to understand the intricacies of house contruction?

So, if Pastor X’s house gets built by Y-Guy and Pastor X discovers that not only was the foundation improperly laid, but the walls were falling down the ceiling is leaking, would he blame him for his lack of gifting, or for his lack of education, experience and training?

And what if all Guy-Y said was, “Well, I’m not perfect. I’m a sinner too, ya know. We all make mistakes. I’m sorry if this has somehow affected your life as a family.”

I doubt SGM Pastor X would find that to be an acceptable answer, would you?

I’m not sure that’s what Jesus had in mind in terms of the kind of people He wished to have tend His sheep, know what I mean?

Side note:  this was before Peter realized that women were equally valued and gifted by the Lord, as Paul proves in his letters.  But that is entirely off the subject…:)

I am not defending CJ or Harris. I do believe that their Pastor’s College could improve in many critical areas.

Both AW Tozer and Charles Spurgeon were self-taught. They do not have college degree or seminary degree. They were self-taught through discipline and passion.

My point is that whether you graduated from a reputable seminary or the Pastor’s College, if you do not keep up with your studies, you are bound to make serious mistakes. I know my colleagues who do not keep up their studies in their ministry do not grow themselves, therefore their congregation ceases to grow as well. On the other hand, both Piper and MacArthur continues to study at length even now, and you see the fruit of their teaching.

It takes a tremendous self-discipline to continue to study after the seminary/pastor’s college. Just my 2 cents.

Welcome.

Neither does Josh Harris, senior pastor of CLC.
What do yo make of this?

    In my situation, I trusted the CGL more than the Pastor of Sovereign Grace Ministry.  I had a personal relationship with this person, but when the “situation” unfolded, even with obvious discrepancies the caregroup leader “defended” the Pastor who couldn’t have been more WRONG, just because he is a pastor.  Do you know how hard it is to go against the fast moving flow of anything.  These men did not pray and carefully consider the ways of the church, but built a screen to protect the strong, and in doing so seriously hurt the weak.  

   It reminds me in business of the wistle blower law, that protects the one who states HEY WAIT SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE.  We all know what we believe, but it is much harder to practice.  Inquiring Mind the position of the caregroup leader to me, made me think this church was a cult, I could not reason otherwise why this great man of faith would compromise the way he did.  

  I believe the holy spirit will guide you.  Ask the Lord to open your eyes.  I am praying for you      

This leadership stuff is a bit concerning. I guess the polity does allow for abuse, but it does not necessarily mean abuse must happen.

The Bible study thing is interesting and is something we’ve wondered about too. Pardon these late night ramblings of an interested observer. I guess the main reason I’m writing is to echo Steve’s desire to try to keep a very interesting and helpful discussion from becoming something else.

Whenever a church gets planted or someone new takes over, SGM whips out the teaching on leadership, in total cult-like fashion.

SGM’s messages on “leadership” should be heard with red flags flying all over the place. They distort the scriptures to fit their own purposes. If you allow them to, they will rob you of your citizenship in heaven and replace it with the SGM police state. They present it as though it’s THE ONLY WAY to believe, THE BIBLICAL WAY to live out the Christian life in relationship to the church.

“That is not the wisdom which comes down from above: it belongs to earth, to the unspiritual nature, and to evil spirits.”

I think it’s pretty obvious why SGM has their own “Pastor’s College”

Steve–I just lost a long reply to your comments.  I thought about your words, but just am too busy to reply right now…however I do apologize for a snarky tone.  You and Jim are right…we are all fellow believers.

I’ll reply later.

Steve–I am so glad you are here!

Your “anti-reformation” comment at 11:01 is interesting.  I wanted to post in response to this Bible study thread but work demands impressed upon my time.  Before you posted your comment, I was thinking the same thing that if pastors are the only individuals allowed to teach and interpret scripture in an SGM than SGM has really adopted an pre-reformation view regarding the ability of laity to read and understand the scriptures.
As further evidence of this view, consider the following quote from one of the outlines at the recent SGM Pastors conference.  See the highlighted text.  I am sure this view would extend to leaders of adult caregroups as well.   I did not want to believe that SGM could hold a so-called “anti-reformation” view but how else could you characterize the below.  Further evidence that SGM is not truly reformed if at all.

There is a teaching component in youth caregroups that is inadvertently delegated to the youth caregroup leader. Although his responsibilities are limited to asking questions and leading discussions, the caregroup leader will be required to teach in some form, fulfilling a role that is likely not sufficiently gifted for. There is a body of theological understanding needed to direct the conversion and adjust erroneous answers. Youth caregroup leaders are servants, no doubt, but they are not called or equipped to lead through teaching.

Touche, my friend!

BTW no offense taken.

Steve the unoffended

Are you attempting to moderate me??? LOL

Steve the Berean

The ones I have known were required to become involved in some depth in the various ministries of CLC.  They were all required to be in care groups other than the ones involved with the leadership of the PC, i.e. meeting once a month with CJ.  Most of them had families that they needed to nurture and be with.  Their jobs were basicallky to go to school full time for 9-10 months.

I think that comparing the PC with undergrad and then post grad smeinary is comparing apples and oranges and I am not certain that the leadership at SGM intends it to replace a more traditional and seminary formal education.  Think of it as an Associated Degree or even a Certificate program.   I speculate that their intention is to indoctrinate the men and families that attend the PC into the SGM way of doing things and they use the resources (From Brent Detwiler’s reading list) to do that.  The reading list is very revealing for both what it has on it and what it does not. It is decidedly heavy with books from men that SGM embraces (at least partially) who are contemporary.  There is a smattering of the classics from the Reformed tradition but not much else.  It should be no surprise of even a problem for anyone to think they many of the books are from the leadership of SGM/CLC.  If you go to a Reformed Seminary you dont read too many books espousing Wesleyan Arminianism except as a critique and the same is true for a Wesleyan Seminary.

I think levity has it’s uses and places of appropriatness.  Perhaps I misjudged the tone of the comments perhaps not.  I will leave it to the individual posters to determine the motivation behind the comment but as for me–if it smells like a rose and looks like a rose and has thorns like a rose–it probably is a rose.
Steve the not gnostic (secret knowledge that quizzler has)

Nice!!!!