The SGC in Bradenton is a troubled church. I won’t go into their sad story at this time-we’ll see what happens moving forward. I’m glad that Jerry got the memo and took the time to help the good people of Bradenton understand that blogs are evil. As it does in every case, it increased our traffic from Bradenton. Thanks Jerry!
But I digress.
Scott pastored GCC in Bradenton for 6 years. He delivered his last sermon on June 22, 2008, announcing to visitors that he was stepping down, and that Luan would be the new senior pastor. I’m assuming that there had been a family meeting, as this announcement was made to guests on Sunday morning.
Luan was sent to the PC, and since that time, GCC sermons have been delivered from visiting pastors, mostly from Florida churches.
Since entering the PC, GCC’s senior pastor has spoken there 3 times. Once during what I suppose was during a break from the PC for Thanksgiving, and twice during the Christmas break.
His first message during the Christmas break was a PC update. The second message, delivered on January 4, 2009 was a normal sermon. So the new sr pastor, almost halfway through his time at the PC has an opportunity to address the church he will be leading in June. One shot. One message. In what way will he care for the people he will be leading? What is the one message he would like to convey?
God’s Grace for Christians Through Godly Leadership
As I’ve said before, I couldn’t invent this stuff if I wanted to. You can hear the message and read the outline here.
Here are some “highlights”:
The text was Heb 13:7-19. Luan starts with a story about a distance runner who was disqualified for jumping the gun. This is because every runner needs a leader. Running the race safely requires that we follow godly leadership. How do we do this?
1. We imitate what they believe and taught about Christ.
2. We follow leadership by submitting.
Luan then told the good people of GCC that, “many groups of believers don’t believe that they should have leaders-no one among them is a leader.” I wish he would have elaborated, as I have no idea who he is talking about. I guess we’ll take his word for it.
He then said that leadership is called to watch over your soul-”we’re talking about eternal life and death here. Apart from God’s grace we are not attracted to the things of God. many Christians today do not want to submit to anyone. They think the Christian life is about them and God and nothing else, but that’s not how God sees it. The Christian life is to be lived out in a Christian community called the local church, and it is led by elders and pastors. So all Christians are called to submit to their leaders. You and I are called to obey our leaders. Now this doesn’t mean that we are inferior to our leaders, or that we can’t disagree with our leaders now and then, but at the end of the day this is God’s design for the church and for your life.”
Luan then gave GCC 5 things to consider.
1-take their counsel seriously.
2-take their warnings seriously.
3-seek their advice. He said that it is better to over ask than under ask. He confessed that he would have a tendency to act on his own, without going to Jerry or Danny and say, “what do you think?” He has a tendency to think, “this is right, let’s go with it”, and not bother asking Jerry or Danny.
It’s good to know who Luan’s leaders are under SGM’s non-hierarchical system.
He then said, “seek people’s advice”, but corrected himself with “your leaders advice”. Oops.
4-”If they tell you to do something, do it. That’s the fundamental definition of obey. If they tell you to do something, do it.”
5-”if you and your leaders disagree, at the end of the day, submit to their decision. Now we aren’t talking about things that your conscience can’t live with-that’s not what the author is talking about here. He doesn’t qualify this, because he’s not talking about this. We are talking about the mundane things of life or things of the church. Whenever you and your leaders disagree, submit to their decision.”
Luan then had yet another list for GCC-5 things that have helped him submit to his leaders.
1-”trust that God is leading your leaders, because most of the time, He is.”
2-”assume that they know more than you do. Our tendency is to assume that we are right. You’ve got to assume that they know more than us.”
3-”assume that their decisions are wise.”
4-”ask questions. Rather than assuming or accusing, ask questions.”
5-”pray for your leaders. It is easy to obey and submit to people that you are praying for.”
Luan then summarizes, which is helpful, as some might have missed the point.
In 1 Cor Paul exhorts Christians to run the race. In the same vein, the author of Hebrews exhorts us to do the same. But the race is not meant to be easy. We’re going to need God’s help, and in His wisdom, God is providing help and protection through godly leadership.
So let us access this grace to help us run this race safely and run it well by following the godly leadership, not only on our lives, but godly leaders in the past. Let us help them lead us with joy by imitating and submitting to them.
He then thanked God for the grace He gives us through many means, and especially through our leaders.
- – - – - – - – -
So Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, GCC! Your PC-attending senior pastor, who you should trust that God is leading, assume that he knows more than you, and assume that his decisions are wise, has clearly explained to you what Paul forgot to mention in 1 Cor 9 in reference to running the race that is set before us.
You need Luan.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Jim,
Could you give us your view of what your application of Heb. 13:7-19 would look like?
Thanks!
April 28th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Hi Joel-
I’ll be happy to dig into this later (I’m working). My short response would be that I’d give it the same weight that it is given in Scripture. Think of it like this-if your pastors preached through the epistles verse by verse, how often would the topic of leadership, or any reference to leaders at all come up?
Compare this to the emphasis or weight the leadership passages hold in many denominations. Your denomination would be an extreme example.
April 28th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
So are you taking issue with the number of times that this topic is preached on?
April 28th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Joel,
I think that we should think in terms of proportion. Where Scripture is silent we should be silent. When Scripture says little about a topic, we should follow suite.
To spend an hour on one verse, adding to it greatly by saying things that Scripture does not say, is overkill.
SGM’s view of authority has been covered so completely, I think you guys should be good for about 5 years.
But this little topic, which is mentioned so little in Scripture must be revisited again and again in SGM because it is so important to the leadership that the sheep clearly understand that you are under your leaders’ authority.
It is so much more than the number of times this topic is addressed from the pulpit. Authority is a cultural distinctive in SGM. Your leaders have given themselves titles which have only been used by the most extreme fringe groups after the first century.
Is it any wonder why your movement is considered authoritarian?
April 28th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
When I first came to PDI, which was then a People of Destiny church, waaay back in 1991, we were told to search the scriptures to see if what the pastor was teaching was correct and to hold him accountable if it wasn’t. Of course, they were an adopted church who had been further down the shepherding path than PDI at the time. They were just happy their bondage to legalism was over. HA! I remembered the Pastor saying that all through my time in PDI/SGM. I don’t remember that teaching ever coming up again. Now they are being taught the opposite of that.
Tragic. Tragically silly that is. How ridiculous…assume they are right. Heck NO!!!!
April 28th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Actually, I was mainly wondering how you would apply that section of Scripture. I agree that how sgm applies it has been covered pretty exhaustively.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
SGM does not believe that the sheep can hear God for themselves therefore, the pastors must tell them what to do, what to think, how to interpret Scripture, etc. This is demonstrated time and time again through the fact that their are no Bible studies within SGM. Therefore, the pastors are needed to make decisions for the sheep. It is like a dictatorship rather than a church. I feel so badly for those still in SGM who are “believing the best” about their pastors even though they have been flooded with real evidence to the contrary. They have balls and chains around their ankles and are serving at their pastors’ mercies. Really, it is that bad!! What about the pastors serving the flock? What about Jesus coming to serve rather than be served? SGM has this totally backwards. I loved serving our pastors but now I realize – THEY EXPECTED IT!! They believe that they DESERVE IT!! Oh boy….
The pastors have no care, concern or respect for the people, even though the people are made in the image of God. People in SGM, please wake up!!! You are being used #1 for your money and #2 for your services to the pastors and to the movement. They are using Scripture to manipulate you and control you, just as the pharisees did. I believe that these Scriptures in Hebrews are written for those pastors who are walking in the Spirit, who are trustworthy and godly men. These would be men who LOVE their congregations and are serving them and are out for their BEST. It is not about control and manipulation. Think of the Scriptures that warn us about wolves in sheep clothing and false teachers…..Please, listen to the voice of God and not the voice of men. There is a day coming when even the elect will be deceived….
April 28th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Re: Joel, you asked how we would interpret and apply Heb 13, particularly vs 17 I am assuming. I would interpret and apply it this way.
I think the passage is talking about not putting up blocks to your leaders that would prevent you from hearing what they are saying and being persuaded by it when it is right. The word that is translated obey in vs 17 is from the Greek word peitho, which means to persuade, and is in this context when it is in the passive voice it means that you should allow yourself to be persuaded. We are to humbly listen to our leaders because they are wise and given to us to help us. We are not to be obstinate to them, just rejecting what they say to us out of hand because this is not profitable to us. Instead we should consider what they say and allow ourselves to be persuaded, if it is valid. I think of it as similar to the Bereans who examined what was said to see if it was right, they didn’t reject it out of hand because they were being arrogant, nor did they just do what was said to them, instead they considered it and allowed themselves to be persuaded if it was correct.
Ray C. Stedman wrote the following in his commentary on Hebrews:
“Several things should be noted about Hebrews 13:17 and 1Thess 5:12. The word “obey” comes from the Greek peitho, “to persuade.” The present imperative middle form, used here, means “permit oneself to be persuaded,” “yield to persuasion.” It definitely does not mean to blindly follow orders. The phrase those who are over you in the Lord should simply be “your leaders in the Lord.” There is no thought of being “over” anyone, or others being “under” a leader. The authority of a Christian leader is not command authority but servant leadership. A servant has authority, as Jesus said he had, because he awakens by his loving service a desire to comply. Or he is persuasive because of his logic or knowledge.”
Thus I would disagree with especially points 4 and 5, the “fundamental definition of obey” in this scripture does not mean “If they tell you to do something, do it.” Instead we are to consider what they say and do it if we are persuaded by it, while not being arrogant and instead allowing us to be persuaded.
I also think this verse and the situation needs to be examined in terms of the church government structure. If these leaders are leaders who you have elected because you have seen them as wise and Godly, and who are not autonomous but are accountable to you, and who if they step out of line there are consequences for, then this is seen in a whole different light. There is much less a chance of the ability for abuse that this passage seemingly gives in that situation.
Now, to be clear, I am not one who thinks there is no authority over Christians. I do think there is authority in the church and the church can hold members accountable, but that authority is to be held by the whole congregation, not just the leaders.
I hope this answers your question.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Blecch. Spew.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Calvin also said in his commentary on Hebrew 13:17 that our obedience to the leaders must not be blind. Here is a portion of Calvin’s comment:
” ‘Obey them,’ etc. I doubt not but that he speaks of pastors and other rulers of the Church, for there were then no Christian magistrates; and what follows, ‘for they watch for your souls,’ properly belongs to spiritual government. He commands first obedience and then honor to be rendered to them. These two things are necessarily required, so that the people might have confidence in their pastors, and also reverence for them. But it ought at the same time to be noticed that the Apostle speaks only of those who faithfully performed their office; for they who have nothing but the title, nay, who use the title of pastors for the purpose of destroying the Church, deserve but little reverence and still less confidence.”
April 28th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Doulos-please let me know if I correctly edited your comment above.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Jim- Thanks! That’s correct! =)
Calvin goes on to say, “Doubly foolish, then, are the Papists, who from these words [Heb. 13:17] confirm the tyranny of their own idol: ‘The Spirit bids us obediently to receive the doctrine of godly and faithful bishops, and to obey their wholesome counsels; he bids us also to honor them.’ But how does this favor mere apes of bishops? And yet not only such are all those who are bishops under the Papacy, but they are cruel murderers of souls and rapacious wolves. But to pass by a description of them, this only will I say at present, that when we are bidden to obey our pastors, we ought carefully and wisely to find out those who are true and faithful rulers; for if we render this honor to all indiscriminately, first, a wrong will be done to the good; and secondly, the reason here added, to honor them because they watch for souls, will be rendered nugatory.” (italics my emphasis).
Calvin’s comment I think is relevant here for this discussion.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I have to run out, but this obey stuff is not what the WORD means in that passage. It means to put yourself in a place to not resist being persuaded by those that God has raised up as elders===NOT APPOINTED by some hierarchy or self appointed coverings or some other authoritarian crap! Be persuaded by them; don’t blindly obey because they are the CEO of some religious organization. Doesn’t history show us how foolish that is? Why are we so easily fooled by them point us to a scriptural address that they have defined for us?
April 28th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Just had a quick thought.
We’ve worshipped in the PCA (the conservative Presbyterian Church in America, not the liberal PCUSA, just to identify the flavor of the culture…) for almost twenty years, in three different churches, (not different as in SGM different, just separate).
So that works out to about 1000 sermons, right?
I have never ever heard anyone preach, in those one thousand sermons, that congregants need to obey their pastors, or give them respect, or listen to them.
In our church, (which is not different, like SGM, but more like all the churches in which the rest of us out here in ‘regular churchland’ worship), we hear sermons about JESUS and the GOSPEL and GOD’S GREAT AND LIFECHANGING LOVE FOR HIS PEOPLE.
We hear that through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT our lives can be changed and filled with joy. We hear that we are more sinful than we think, but far more beloved than we can imagine. We hear that we are adopted children of the Almighty, beloved sons and daughters.
We hear God is so very fond of his children, that Jesus goes before us to prepare a place for us. We hear we are without hope apart from his saving grace, which fills us with joy, humility and thanksgiving, not GUILT.
We hear sermons about love and sin and other stuff…as our pastors stumble across it preaching straight through books of the Book.
But seriously, I’ve never been told to submit/obey/admire/whatever my pastor.
Why would you have to TELL people this? Don’t they respect you anyway?
Blecchhhh. Spew. WEIRD.
April 28th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
RT,
Hallellujah!!! Wonderful to hear ALL of the “Good News” being preached in your church—our new church home is the same—we are still pinching ourselves—and rejoicing that our Pastors are lifiting our eyes to JESUS …THE Author and Finisher of our faith (while we are running this race)!!
April 28th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Waters–
Isn’t it wonderful that there are so many places where believers gather in freedom?
So many churches, so many denominations, so many home churches…come out among your brothers and sisters, SGM.
We charismatics, we reformed, we arminians, we orthodox…we are one in Christ, committed to his Word.
“It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Galatians 5:1
April 28th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Wow….and then again, so what else is new? Seems like the same old same old to me. And what frustrates me is how I still have to battle things like this in my mind because it sounds so BIBLICAL. It is like sugar and honey going down that you swallow…then you have it over and over again so much that you get sick and it is the nastiest thing to throw up. Sorry for the analogy but that’s how I feel. It sounds good, seems right, even biblical-y based…and yet so twisted. Again, where is the Holy Spirit? I do not believe that SGM has set out to “quiet” the Holy SPirit and yet this is what happens, what IS happening. And it is sad that it is not just this church. My old church would definitely spew the same rhetoric. It is just so sad. May God have mercy on all of us and allow our eyes to see His truth…not ours, not theirs, but HIS.
Amen?!
April 28th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
IN SGM: IT’S ALL ABOUT CONTROL, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN! (and I ask, is that a hallmark of a CULT?)
April 28th, 2009 at 11:39 pm
This is simply not a big issue with some denoms (as in thriving denoms preaching the Gospel) as it is with us, apparently. Less than a month earlier before Luan’s message, yet another sermon came down which, based on its outline, makes two interesting bullet points:
How Romans 12:1-2 can be used to make the point that we should be serving someone who we feel is less qualified needs to be explained to me (even hijacking verse 3 in this sense is quite the leap; the context appears to be quite the opposite, to me, as men who read this from the pulpit fall under its weight first before anyone else does).
It is also interesting to know how the first one (”- Is gladly submissive and obedient to those in authority”) has no scripture reference like the other 26 bullet points surrounding it. This may seem to be lightweight nitpicking, but it only alarms some of the flock who see in sorrow that this issue is already a settled matter in the leaders’ minds, coupled with little to no need of a lengthy defense based on the whole of scripture.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:01 am
Protestant Knight
I think, the person meant “Roman 13:1-2.”
However, I agree with you that the outline drains me.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:07 am
This reminds me of some authoritative husbands approach to his wife’s submission.
A wife is called to submit to her husband. Ephesians 5:22. Colossians 3:18-19
A husband is called to love his wife as Christ loves the church. Ephesians 5
A husband is never told in scriptures to make sure his wife submits to him. He is told to love her and lay his life down for her.
Believers are told to obey their leaders and submit to them. Hebrews 13
Leaders are never told to demand obedience or submission.
Leaders are commanded to serve their flock with joy. Hebrews 13
The flock is never told to be a ‘joy to your pastor.’
We are warned not to add to scripture. Hmmmm.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:10 am
There was a family meeting where The announcement was made about Scott stepping down and Luan replacing him AFTER going to the PC. We were all a little stunned to hear we would be pastor-less for almost a year. The St. Pete SGM church has taken over as leadership, and we are now basically a satellite church of theirs.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Brothers and Sisters, This heralded teaching emphasis on submission to church leadership is ALARMING and we must ask—WHY such emphasis,SGM??? Why such a need for complete obedience on the part of parishoners??? The idol is becoming quite obvious here—it is SGM ‘leadership’. Frightening.—As PK stated: “…it only alarms some of the flock who see in sorrow that this issue is ALREADY A SETTLED MATTER IN THE LEADERS MINDS.” The fruit of the PC is producing after its own defiled seed…………life isnot coming forth and isnot reproducing life in its churches (new converts are NOT added to the SGM church in great number). I remember 4 years ago, in Chesapeake at a youth meeting, EH stated to the parent /teen meeting: “We have raised a generation of Pharisees.” (!!!!!) We were so encouraged—thinking perhaps they are really seeing we have a religous,lifeless problem here. Sadly,—thats the last we heard of that observation—obviously that truth was squelched by his fellow pastors. (Gotta keep up that veneer).—And so—at all costs—the control and requirement of submission to leaders continues—at the expense of people who trustingly follow without passionately engaging to hear the Lord above the voice of taskmasters. Yes, our pastors are called to watch over our souls. Thats one verse—there are many more about our responsibility to be watchful—each of us must lean in to hear and know the Voice of our Savior above all else—even that which sounds “Biblically doctrinally sound” ………remembering the enemy comes in and lures “as an angel of light. We are instructed to; “Be watchful, stand firm, in the faith,act like men,be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.” ICor 16:13-14.
April 29th, 2009 at 7:08 am
Yup, yup. Our pastor gave us orders to obey and when we didn’t have peace with his orders and declined them, he got MAD. When we called him on this attitude, he assembled a few of the ”bros” to help us see our sin. When we still didn’t succumb because we were trying to follow God, not man, we were kicked out.
The “If they tell you to do something, then do it” doctrine was in place way back when this happened to us, in 1989.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Jim:
He really said these things?
4-”If they tell you to do something, do it. That’s the fundamental definition of obey. If they tell you to do something, do it.”
5-”if you and your leaders disagree, at the end of the day, submit to their decision. Now we aren’t talking about things that your conscience can’t live with-that’s not what the author is talking about here. He doesn’t qualify this, because he’s not talking about this. We are talking about the mundane things of life or things of the church. Whenever you and your leaders disagree, submit to their decision.”
Just when I think I had seen it all after twenty some years in SGM, they never seek to amaze me. All I have to say is:
1. Has SGM never heard of the “priesthood of believers”?
2. My new testament tells me that one of the roles of a pastor is the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. Based on these quotes, SGM is not only failing to equip their congregants but they are neutering their people for any type of effective service.
I used to resist the use of “c” word to describe SGM but I am starting to think that maybe I should.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Former,
Sad but true. I linked to the message for the benefit of those who might want to check my facts.
I still don’t endorse the use of the “c word”, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to discern that this is very unique organization. They have positioned themselves on the outer fringe of orthodoxy.
Rather than passing out materials supporting their view that the blogs are inherently sinful, it would serve SGM to take a hard look in the mirror.
CJ is definitely smarter than me. He is not smarter than every reputable theologian, who have unanimously agreed that there are no apostles today. (I’m open to correction here-please provide corrective data).
Is that the type of humility we’re supposed to imitate? A belief that one can stand against 2000 years of church history because he thinks he has found a better way?
April 29th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
As a pastor, I would love to see His people submit and obey the spiritual leaders… but not blindly. Also, as a pastor, I must find a better way to encourage people to submit to the leadership than sheer exercise of positional authority without the character to complement. This is not a godly leadership.
From Philemon we see Paul attempting reconciliation between Onesimus and Philemon. Onesimus ran away from his master Philemon, and later was converted by Paul in Rome. So Paul – the Apostle does not exercise his rightful authority, but rather appeals to Philemon in love because he has confidence in Philemon’s love and faith. Paul said:
“Therefore, though I have enough confidence in Christ to order you to do what is proper, yet for love’s sake I rather appeal to you — since I am such a person as Paul, the aged” (v. 8,9a).
NOTES:
1. Paul had his Apostolic authority to command Philemon what to do. But Paul waves that right, because there is a better way.
2. That better way is “for love’s sake… appeal.” This is what true godly leadership is all about. Loving appeal is always better than absolute authority. And this is the Gospel way.
3. Paul could do this, because Paul recognized the [i] sensitivity of the issue [ii] he had confidence in Philemon’s faith and love (see v. 5 &7). In a way, Paul did not treat Philemon as a subject to his authority but a “beloved brother and fellow worker” (v.1). Paul saw him as a partner in the Gospel ministry and treated him as such.
Again, like Paul, loving appeal is better than stern authority.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Humility….Sovereignty…Grace……manufactured through the CJ/SGM filter….a counterfeit to the true Humility,Sovereignty, and Grace that flow from the Lord Jesus Christ……We are called to be equipped, as FSGMer pointed out, for going out, ministering and bringing the news of salvation to a dying world. And your statement, FSGMer: “….SGM is not only failing to equip their congregants but they are neutering their people for any type of effective service.”*** Gracie,you pointed out that in 1989 you purposed to obey God rather than their orders, and for that you were kicked out. —And now, 20 years later, they are actually teaching the tyranny of pastoral obedience in pastors college—all out in the open now—
Jesus did say that IN HIM we would have life–abundant life—and there is a real enemy,satan, that comes to kill, steal, and destroy. If we are neutered—how can we be warriors??? Neutering is passive and asleep.–Quote from A. W. Tozer: “It becomes the devils business to keep the Christian spirit imprisoned. He knows that the believing and justified Christian has been RAISED UP OUT OF THE GRAVE OF HIS SINS AND TRESPASSES. From that point on,Satan works much harder to keep us BOUND AND GAGGED,actually imprisoned in our own grave clothes. He know that if we continue in this kind of bondage…we are not much better off than when we were spiritually dead.”—The SGM machine seeks to keep Believers “bound and gagged” by their heavy-handed control and unwavering obedience to their leaders.—-For some time we have been praying for our friends in SGM: “Awake, awake, O Zion;clothe yourself with strength…Shake off your dust; Rise up,sit enthroned,O Jerusalem; Free yourself from the chains on your neck,O captive Daughter of Zion.” Isa 52:1-2
April 29th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Jim at 10:30.
Good night, my brother, I adore you.
What a cogent and concise post:
you said: “CJ is definitely smarter than me.” HA! In his dreams.
“He is not smarter than every reputable theologian, who have unanimously agreed that there are no apostles today. (I’m open to correction here-please provide corrective data).” Don’t worry, he’ll have a revelation or word of wisdom soon that he needs to drop the “I am an apostle” stuff. Oh wait, that already happened.
“Is that the type of humility we’re supposed to imitate? A belief that one can stand against 2000 years of church history because he thinks he has found a better way?” Spot on, you wordsmith.
ARGH!!!!!
April 29th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Collateral Damage–
Why don’t you guys just stage a coup and <GASP!!> call your OWN pastor, like all the rest of us out here in NormalLand do???
Or better yet, come out here in NormalLand with the rest of us!!
We have safer rides, that’s for sure.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Jim:
Rather than passing out materials supporting their view that the blogs are inherently sinful, it would serve SGM to take a hard look in the mirror.
Unfortunately, looking in a mirror would require SGM leaders to practice what they preach “concerning watching your life and doctrine closely” and they only appear to do this when it suits their purpose to do so.
I still don’t endorse the use of the “c word”, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to discern that this is very unique organization. They have positioned themselves on the outer fringe of orthodoxy.
I agree and disagree with you on this point. I agree that by virtue of their abherrent practices and structures that SGM is indeed on the outer fringe of orthodoxy. However, by virtue of the network of external relationships which CJ has built around himself and SGM, SGM appears to be solidly in the center of reformed and evangelical orthodoxy. Recently CJ and Joshua Harris spoke at a confernce sponsored by The Gospel Coalition. Take a look at the other speakers. It is hard to be more orthodox than this.
A few months ago you mentioned here that some of the “Reformed Big Dogs” were taking note of this blog. Have there been any comments made to you that you can share here?
I also do not know if CJ is any smarter than you he just may be better at self-promotion.
April 29th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
CJ is clearly a sharp guy. I can barely string two paragraphs together.
RE the RBD’s, I was speaking with one, who had been speaking with others. I can’t share what has been said to me, and we currently aren’t talking. I’m not sure what will happen on that front, if anything. I kind of doubt that I’ll be involved with any ongoing conversation. I didn’t share anything here without permission, but I can imagine that it’s hard to trust a guy with a blog. Maybe the conversation is now above my pay grade.
I’m pretty settled in what my role is in regards to SGM, which is why I’ve joked to my friends that I should have named this place “The SGM Inquirer”. If amateur tabloid journalism will spare some sheep from heartache, I can live with that…
April 29th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Jim, don’t you dare minimize your role in the Kingdom!
April 29th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
John MacArthur – Authority of Elders and Pastors –
- I believe that as far as authority, the only authority any pastor or elder has is the Word of God. When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your authority. I have no authority, if you’re in my congregation, to say to you, “Go here and get this training. Go there. I command you to…”–I have no authority to do that. That is overstepping my bounds. I am nothing more and nothing less than an instrument by which God makes known to you his revelation. That’s my role.
Now, I may say to you, “Given the circumstances, I would recommend this because it appears from what I know about that and what I know about you that this would be a good choice,” but that is not authority; that is counsel. My authority stops when I close the page of this book, and then all I’m doing is giving you counsel. You can consider that counsel as to its inherent value and make your own decision. But I have no authority to command you, beyond the pages of the Word of God.
That very point is where pastor’s and elder’s leadership becomes out-of-bounds and abusive and overbearing. God never intended that. The best we can do is give wise counsel. That’s why the Old Testament says, “In much counsel, there is wisdom.” The point is there. If God wanted us to just listen to one guy, He would say, “If you want to know what to do, go ask the elder.” But He says, “Get much counsel and you’ll get wisdom.” So I believe that our authority stops where scripture ends and then the best we can do is try to give wise counsel based upon our best understanding of the facts. -
*
There are many such articles online about a pastor’s authority, and abuse of a pastor’s authority. And many of these articles are on spirtual abuse sites, battered sheep sites.
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A WOLF and a THIEF tells you that you should trust them, tries to force you to trust them, and shames you if you don’t.
A SHEPHERD consistently demonstrates that he is trustworthy by his speech, actions, and life, and by his upholding the authrority of Scripture in teaching and in his life. He does not try to get to you trust him.
Jesus never said to “just trust them more,” He said that His sheep know His voice, and they will never follow a stranger, and they will in fact run from a stranger — even if he’s an SGM pastor or upper-level management person, or even CJ himself, for God does not show favoritism! He is, in fact, stricter on leaders, pastors, teachers, than on the flock, but that is not imitated in SGM.
Paul and John warned flocks, in the holy and authoritative Scriptures, that people would come into the flocks and would ravage the flocks, and the people should be alert to that and not submit to it!!!
*
I agree with FreeIndeed above (April 28th, 2009 at 1:21 pm) that SGM used to, at least with lip service, tell people to be Bereans and check their Bibles to see if messages and sermons were true, and to go to the pastors if something was amiss, and it would all be gratefully and prayerfully received. See how much worse it is now??? See how they have forgotten and turned from what they once knew to be true?
*
I agree with Presbyterian above (April 28th, 2009 at 2:47 pm) who listed above that the term translated “obey” as in obey your leaders actually means “persuade,” as in let yourself be persuaded by their godly life and instruction. At least from my little Greek knowledge and research.
This kind of teaching about sheep mindlessly trusting those “over” and wives being refuse under their husband’s feet in the name of submission is CLASSIC spiritual abuse. It has been outlined and detailed by cult-watch sites, before SGM. But it is CLASSIC. Just do a search engine search including such words and phrases as Super Apostles,religious abuse, is your church healthy, signs of a healthy church, signs of an abusive church, and yes, cult characteristics.
Can you see how SGM is getting worse and worse?? Can you see how they increasingly ignore the Bible, the authority of the Scriptures, and go off on what they want to emphasize and what they interpret from sloppy Bible interpretation skills and simple ignorance, and place their own opinons and doctrines and procedures above that given us in the Bible?? What, then, is left to steer by?
It’s increasingly becoming what SGM says about things, rather than what the Bible says about things.
People, PLEASE see this!!! God has many passages in the Bible about people and leaders turning from sound teaching and introducing false teachings, and otherwise destroying the flocks. God says don’t put up with it, to stop it from happening!!! God has given more liberty and strength to sheep (and wives) than SGM does!
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Acts 12:29-31
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
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Galations 1: 6-9 [Perversion of the Gospel]
6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
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2 Peter 2:1-3
[The Rise of False Prophets]
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
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2 Corinthians 11:3-6, 12-15, 20-21
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
2And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
20In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face. 21To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!
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Isaiah 9:16
16 For those who guide this people are leading them astray;
And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion.
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Ezekiel 34
Prophecy against the Shepherds of Israel
April 29th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
RT-“Or better yet, come out here in NormalLand with the rest of us!!” Classic!
BoGod-excellent Johnny Mac quote!
April 30th, 2009 at 2:02 am
Beloved of God writes: “Can you see how SGM is getting worse and worse? Can you see how they increasingly ignore the bible . . ?” This is so true. Last year, a visiting senior pastor from a Central Florida SGM church spoke on the importance of the local church. During his sermon he quoted Luther as saying “Salvation, apart from the church, is impossible.” He even put the statement on the overhead screen. I was shocked! So much that I asked several of the care group leaders what they made of that statement. They all blew it off! One even said, ‘well, you know what he meant’. No, I didn’t know what he meant, I know what he said. I could have understood if he had said ’sanctification, apart from the church, was impossible’, but that’s not what he said. What he said was that the sufficiency of Christ on the Cross, which they so vehemently preach, wasn’t enough – we need the local church if we ever expect to be saved!!! In order to exhalt the church, this well-known, well-liked, intelligent pastor was willing to blaspheme the Word of God. And these care group leaders were willing to blow it off as if it was no big deal! What is wrong with these people? Are they so brainwashed that they don’t see the dangerous ground they are walking on? God opened our eyes and we finally left the church after 2 years of ‘observing’ this type of manipulative tactics to bind us to the church, and blind us to the truth. I praise God that he rescued us before we, too, were victims of this subtle mind control.
April 30th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Welcome, Merry Heart! (Love the name, btw!)
All I can say regarding this sr pastor’s statement is WHAT??? I mean, really… ??? And the cgl’s were not alarmed (or even curious?) by that statement? WHAT???
How very kind of God to open your eyes to Truth… how very wise of you to get out of there!
April 30th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Last Sunday Dave Harvey was here speaking in the Bradenton church. He was honored for all his involvment in the church plant and leading the church. It reminded me of the AIG executives getting their bonuses. What do we have in Bradenton - a totally dysfunctional church – why are we honoring this man? I would ask when SGM leadership is going to step in and do the hard work, but from this and other sites, it is clear they have way more than they can handle and they seem to be oblivious to it, or just don’t care as long as the corporate machine keeps chugging along. I was very saddened to hear Dave talk about the vast number of church plants this year….they need to be fixing what they have not damaging more lives. We need help in the Bradenton church – where is it, when is it coming? After Merry Heart’s posting, I wonder if help from SGM will help at all.
“Salvation, apart from the church, is impossible.” – how can that question be asked and the sheep blindly not question it? I know all too well, because I have blindly gone along with way too much.
April 30th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Carole,
The cgl’s can’t question it, or that would go against the basic teaching presented above:
2-”assume that they know more than you do. Our tendency is to assume that we are right. You’ve got to assume that they know more than us.”
3-”assume that their decisions are wise.”
April 30th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Over and over again, I keep hearing about men, Christian men, husbands, fathers, who are made to check their God-given, God-created, God-ordained thinking caps at the door of SGM.
2-”assume that they know more than you do. Our tendency is to assume that we are right. You’ve got to assume that they know more than us.”
God gave you men and women of God grey matter. It is capable of thinking. It is capable of research. It is capable of questioning and digging and finding the answers. It is capable of knowing more than a pastor.
3-”assume that their decisions are wise.”
Men and women who are children of the living God, are you not wise as well? Has not God given you His Holy Spirit, indwelling you, to help you? Are you not wise enough to know how God is leading you in your life? Are you not wise enough to discern truth for yourself? Are you not wise enough to hear and follow the voice of Him who loves you so much?
Men and women, co-heirs of the Kingdom, how many times has your gut been wrenched in agony as you hear something unwise, untrue, unrighteous from your pastor/leader? How many times have you talked yourself into ignoring the Holy warning? How many times have you allowed yourself to be led by the hand down a path God did not intend for you to traverse? How many times have you doubted yourself? How entrenched in self-doubt are you today? How many times have you talked yourself into believing something spoken that you do simply and truly do not believe? How many times have you asked your wife, your husband, your child to do the same – ignore God’s Holy Voice in favor of that human voice that is “wiser than you”?
Men and women, children of the living God, how many times has God shown you a path – but your “wise” leaders convinced you that this path was not for you? How many times have you allowed your leaders to overshadow the Lord’s voice?
Men and women, children of the Heavenly Father, do you long to hear your Father’s voice? He is waiting to speak. Listen. You are wise enough to hear. You are wise. You are capable. Trust that your Father can speak in a language you will understand. You do not need a translator when speaking directly to Him.
Man of God, why, o why, do you let SGM emasculate you?
April 30th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Last Sunday Dave Harvey was here speaking in the Bradenton church. He was honored for all his involvment in the church plant and leading the church. It reminded me of the AIG executives getting their bonuses.
Well said!
April 30th, 2009 at 10:31 am
When I left PDI the internet was coming into mainstream and I am so thankful for that during my time of confusion and dismay, I discovered several folks who helped me so much to understand where these mis-led leaders were coming from.
One man is Bob Neumann, now he wasn’t a pastor and never attended seminary, but he did, and does, hear from the Lord. Especially regarding the religious church.
The Lord gave him a series of messages called the Seven Thunders over 11 yrs ago which are so pertinent for all of the discussions on this site and Guy and Kris’s site. He started out by explaining the abominations. I will say that he definitely hears certain things that are on the Lord’s heart.
There is a word from God for each item listed below..just google Bob Neumann Seven Thunders if you are interested. He lived in Miami during this time but is now in NC.
THE ABOMINATIONS
1) The Prideful Arrogance of HIS FALSE/WICKED SERVANTS.
2)The Deceitful Words that pour out Doctrines of Men and Demons.
3) The Acceptance of the WORLD’S VIOLENCE and the SHEDDING of INNOCENT BLOOD on the ALTAR of SELF-PLEASURE and CONVENIENCE.
4) Placing DEMONIC IMAGINATIONS in their HEARTS and calling it “MINISTRY UNTO THE LORD”.
5)The DESIRE for INSTANT GRATIFICATION that Rationalizes ‘SHORT-CUTS’ of Expedience. WHERE THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS. [USING HELL'S METHODS for GOD'S KINGDOM].
6)OPEN DISREGUARD AND CONTEMPT FOR THE TRUTH WHEN IT SERVES THEIR ”NEEDS” AND THEIR ”GREEDS” AT THE EXPENSE OF THE TRUTH.
7) PURPOSELY THWARTING THE MOST HOLY SPIRIT’S MOVE WITHIN THE BRETHERN TO BRING THE BODY OF CHRIST INTO PERFECTION AND UNITY.
These are the SEVEN SINS that will be exposed by the LIGHTNING of HIS WORD, and those that revel in these ABOMINATIONS will be exposed, shaken, broken and destroyed. FOR THE LAMB ALONE MAY JUDGE THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Remnant asked-Man of God, why, o why, do you let SGM emasculate you?
A good portion of American men are wimps. They might be outwardly masculine, or even overly masculine (macho), but inside are little momma’s boys who need to be told what to do and buckle when presented with an opportunity to act like a man. This is a cultural phenomenon that greater minds than mine have documented. These men need a leader. Someone to think for them. It might be Rush Limbaugh or it might be CJ Mahaney. Maybe Oprah, if they’re in touch with their “feminine side” (whatevertheheck that is). I’ve known pastors of all stripes who fall into this category. Mark Driscoll has some entertaining things to say about these pastors, including “they are basically….chicks..”
More to come-got work to do…
April 30th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Still in SGM… you said, ”
Carole,
The cgl’s can’t question it, or that would go against the basic teaching presented above:
2-”assume that they know more than you do. Our tendency is to assume that we are right. You’ve got to assume that they know more than us.”
3-”assume that their decisions are wise.”
Why can’t they see how stupid this makes them look? When Merry Heart’s discerning ears picked up on this erroneous statement and asked the cgl’s about it, their response was to blow it off, or give a non answer?
Just shows their own lack of discernment and their “finger up their nose” mentality. To be willing to go along with, and not question this obvious error does show that they have, indeed checked their brains at the door! Who in their right mind would hold this sr pastor in such high esteem and regard?
Oh yeah… I forgot… they are stupid, taught to not think for themselves and never to question their leaders. That’s the makings of a good cgl…
Stupid me… :-/
April 30th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Last Sunday Dave Harvey was here speaking in the Bradenton church. He was honored for all his involvment in the church plant and leading the church.
Dave Harvey was involved in the Bradenton church plant? Really? When? I’ve been here since day 1, and never knew he was involved, or even seen him around. He must be like Batman. Slip in, take care of things, and slip out.
I think that’s the reason this little experiment of a church plant is in the state it is in. Lack of leadership involvement over the years, and a lack of clear direction. If we had someone looking in from time to time to redirect and correct when necessary, maybe we wouldn’t be dysfunctional. Good people are leaving and/or getting ready to. It’s sad it had to get this bad.
April 30th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Collateral Damage… I, also, was wondering about the Dave Harvey connection. Isn’t the Sarasota church in “Danny Land”?
April 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Yes it is. And under Jerry C. I’ll have to listen to the message to see where that connection is? Maybe I missed something these past 8 years.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
CD - I think you can listen all you want, but with all the spin, how will you know that what’s on the tape bears any resemblance of truth? They do one thing and claim to have done a different thing, it seems.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
CD… “Maybe I missed something these past 8 years.” You wouldn’t be the first to have “missed” something… or not been told something… or maybe they just got their “apostles” confused… you know how that goes, same techniques, different face and name… easy to get miscombobulated…
April 30th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Carole, we were on the same wave length.
Sometimes I wish I could revamp my past so easily with the wave of a paintbrush….or with a slick lie…..
God’s not fooled by such immature and boyish tactics.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
It is true that Luther did say something like, ““Salvation, apart from the church, is impossible.” But not exactly in those words.
But again the context is crucial for Luther’s words. Luther when he said those words, he was expressing that Gospel is only preached in the churches, therefore, outside of the Gospel preaching (about Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection), there is no salvation.
And since the Gospel is preached in the church, only through the church, salvation exists.
He said, “Where he [the Holy Spirit] does not cause it [the Word] to be preached and does not awaken the understanding of it in the heart, all is lost….For where Christ is not preached, there is no Holy Spirit to create, call, and gather the Christian church, apart from which no one can come to the Lord Christ… Outside this Christian community, however, where there is no gospel, there is also no forgiveness, there is also no holiness.”
Luther’s words were evangelistic. A visiting pastor in Florida who quoted Luther was not, but sounds like he was persuading SGM people to committed to SGM local church.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Remnant…
The proverbial wool is not being pulled over the eyes of God, that’s for sure!!
April 30th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
doulos-
I was hoping you’d jump in… thank you for the context of Luther’s words.
I’m familiar with the man and the message-your last paragraph is accurate.
April 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Collateral Damage
April 29th, 2009 at 12:10 am
There was a family meeting where The announcement was made about Scott stepping down and Luan replacing him AFTER going to the PC. We were all a little stunned to hear we would be pastor-less for almost a year. The St. Pete SGM church has taken over as leadership, and we are now basically a satellite church of theirs.
You should listen to the Family Meeting for Gulf Coast Community Church announcing the change and how St. Pete would be taken over…..
…you would find that both meetings seem to differ as to there audience!
April 30th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Is that available online?
April 30th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
CD-nice gravatar
The audio will be available if I can get my hands on it…
April 30th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Collateral Damage:
I think Dave Harvey fits in because took over the day to day oversight of all of the churches from CJ presumably so that CJ could do more to develop the SGM branc. This is why Jared Mellinger replaced him as SP at Covenant Fellowship. Since Harvey now has the ultimatum oversight for all churches including Brandenton he gets credit for being involved with Bradenton. I know its strange logic but as Jim said yesterday SGM is a unique organization. A place where people get credit for things they did not do and/or conversely if people fall out of favor anything good they may have done is erased and they are considered as never having been in their former position or even in existence.
If you want to listen to the announcement of the change at Covenant Fellowship. Its interesting listening. You would think that Dave Harvery is being replaced by some very experienced, gifted and seasoned leader.
April 30th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
Doulos:
You beat me to the researching the context of the Luther quote. What is the document or book from which that quote was lifted?
April 30th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
formersgmer – if your logic is correct (and I think it might be) then the AIG bonus analogy fits even better. If DH is ultimately responsible for the mess that is Bradenton SGC, then he should be fired. If he inherited it, then his predecessor, and all the middle managers should be fired.
I feel the worst for Scott Hawkins. He labored here, as best he could for 6 stressful years, on his own, with very little on-the-job training after returning from the PC, no help from above (even when he asked), and then took the fall and was replaced/stepped down. He tried the best he could, and I wouldn’t call it a failure, but any lesser man would have quit a long time ago. I fully place the blame for the dysfunction of this little body on SGM leadership, or lack thereof.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:37 pm
CD-the same leaders who Luan now wants the good people of CCG to obey, assume that they know more than them, and assume that they are hearing from God.
April 30th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
formersgmer –
I was too lazy to quote him from the books I’ve read on Luther and his theology. But for the above quote, I’ve gotten it from the web. Link below:
NOTE: you might have to register to read the whole article (it is FREE).
http://www.accessmylibrary.com.....144096_ITM
For Luther’s overall thought, I do recommend:
Galatians and
The Theology of Martin Luther by Paul Althaus
May 2nd, 2009 at 11:34 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMAjC7NaItA
“come out here in NormalLand with the rest of us!!”
May 2nd, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Thanks Still In. That was helpful to remember that the last few years were not in vain.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Still In,
Love that song. Thanks for sharing it.
May 5th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I’ve been absent only a short time, and look at all I’ve missed! I have to agree with RT, who says in her own particular, descriptive fashion, “Blecch. Spew.”
My next response is that I cannot add anything more to what you all are saying. So right on! Excellent expression of truth! If only certain other folks could see things so clearly…
Also, Jim and Carole, this could be called the SGM Inquirer. Who could make this stuff up? That a pastor would preach to his church that he must be obeyed at all times? Talk about a conflict of interests! Blecch. Spew. Burp.
May 5th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Canary-good to see you. You did add something to the conversation..
Blecch. Spew. Burp.
May 5th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Ha-Ha! I told my hubby about this pastor’s teaching and he said,”Tell them to RUN!” Hee-hee. Nothing like getting to the point…
May 8th, 2009 at 6:37 pm
The most evil part of this is that an insidious and perverted bondage creeps in where wives, deep in their hearts, try harder to submit to the church leaders than to their husbands. Their support and gifting as a helpmeet orients itself to the church leadership more than to hubby.
I knew wives who practically disdained their hubs and lacked emotional fervor, appreciation, or desire for them. But oh how submitted they were to the leaders.
The instant you see a wife submitting to elders instead of hub, you see a problem.
Blech is right. So sad.
May 9th, 2009 at 12:21 am
5years,
You forgot to “spew” and “burp”. I have to say, when I was “under the influence” of SGM, this is how the order of submission went: Leaders, husband, God. I don’t remember it being taught that way, but it was the result of the controlling church government. If my husband did what leaders said, then I felt secure that, somehow, we were hearing from God. This authority thing is so motivated by a desire to control, and fear is used to keep everyone in their places. Icky.
Thank God for His mercy in showing the way to grace and freedom. I was thinking today that I would never want to have the Holy Spirit leave me. The emptiness in my soul would be so dreadful. He is truly my Comforter.
May 10th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Canary…..yup. I could tell you stories but I won’t……
By the way anybody who went through any of this might like to read Ed Welch’s book: When People are Big and God is Small. He really hammers home about fear of man.
I got a bit tense myself a couple times when leaders said jump and hubby didn’t meekly say “How high?”. I didn’t want to be out of the will of God or lose favor with the leaders. I look back with so much grattitude that hub stood his ground. In retrospect I mostly submitted to him, but to some degree my loyalty and emotional support went to leaders. (Time for the “spew” you say I forgot.) I don’t blame anybody but myself for my sin and bondage, but I can look back clearly now at women I knew whose submission was so terribly misdirected.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
5 years….
Excellent book recommendation!!
May 13th, 2009 at 11:15 am
It’s not just the SGM churches who have it wrong about pastors. I have a long time beef about the ordaining of pastors right out of seminary or whatever pastor’s school they are in. I agree with Frank Viola’s view on leadership in the church; when the bible says “elder” they mean a person with some years and experience on them. How many people either in or out of SGM have been injured or lead astray because they are being taught by young, ignorant men? Our SGM church had such men when it first started (we were a young, independent church then). Somewhere along the way we lost these two wise men and started putting younger men (who happened to be friends with the senior pastor) on staff.
We should all be judging what we hear from the pulpit and using the bible as the measurement. Unfortunately, there are many who don’t have the experience handling the word of God to rightly judge what’s coming down from the leadership. God is faithful though and will help them.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:38 am
5 years,
It is good that you remind us of our own responsibility in our bondage to controlling leadership. We might not be blamed, until we have revelation. If we still remain in that bondage upon recognizing it, THAT must be sin.
Funny thing, while I was beginning to grow in grace, my husband began to notice that I did better when I MISSED church meetings. At first this puzzled him. Then he began to have his own eyes opened to the abuses, and how they effected my increasingly grace-filled walk with Jesus. I think he rushed us out of SGM so fast it made my head spin. He was truly looking out for my own spiritual health. LIke you, I’m glad he stuck to his guns when leaders told him he was wrong. Lord, thank you!
I will check out the book you recommended.
May 13th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
To: Walking in freedom
Please allow me to start off by letting you know that I am a FORMER member of CLC. I was there almost at the beginning (1979) and went through virtually every change of name, change of theology and controversy that occured at CLC during that time period. My wife and I left in April of 2008. In short, I know a lot about what went on and what didn’t. I have know many of the pastors personally over the years, especially the original ones. I left over both theological differences and what I considered church polity issues (meaning the way CLC does church government and provides leadership). I say that to establish that I am not a defender of CLC or SGM and I am critical of their “form” of church government –completely top down with the assumption of an amount of authority that I believe exceeds biblical New Testament definition that reults in leadership oversight that has developed a form of creeping absolutism that borders on the cultic. It is literally their way or the highway even over issues that are non-essential to being a Christian that pertain to the sacrements, the application of biblical authority in church leaders and a trenchant devotion to Reformation (Calvinist) theology.
However, having stated all the above, Walking in Freedom’s comments above are so off base about the issue of bible study as to be absurd. If anything, the leadership of CLC teaches and emphasizes bible study for all it’s members. Over the years, the theology of CLC has evolved into full-blown, systematic,and vigorous Calvinism–I would actually charecterize it as strident. As many of you know the clarion call for reformists is Sola Scriptura. CLC beleives this and wholeheartedly embraces this concept theologically and encourages it’s membership to embrace it as well. Church sponsered bible studies, small group bible studies, neighborhood bible studies are part and parcel to the community life of CLC –at least it was as of April 2008 and I do not think it has chaged dramatically since then. So Walking in Freedom your belief stated as follows, “This is demonstrated time and time again through the fact that their (sic) are no Bible studies within SGM” , based on my 30 years as a member is simply false. However, I do agree with your assesment that the leadership reinforces and enforces the beleif that how leadership interprets scripture is the way the members of CLC should interpret scripture. If you don’t agree with their interpretation, and more importantly, their application (this is where church polity comes into play) then it is best for all concerned that you head to the nearest exit, thank you very much and by the way God Bless you.
Steve the Happy Congregationalist
May 15th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
This story touches on issues that concern me. Is this leadership style what really taught throughout SGM? I’ve emailed you Jim with some questions since I’m not yet feeling good about posting here. Hope that’s Ok.
May 15th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Inquiring Mind, Welcome!
May 15th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
To Steve:
Re: Walking in Freedom and Bible Studies
It is good to know that CLC encourages Bible studies. I wish all the satellite churches did as well. I understand the Fairfax church also encourages Bible studies led by non pastors. So perhaps WIF should have stated that, “It is demonstrated time and time again through the fact that there are no Bible studies in my former SGM church” rather than “This is demonstrated time and time again through the fact that their (sic) are no Bible studies within SGM.”
I can verify that at least one SGM church does not “allow” Bible studies taught by non pastors. I personally know of some single ladies who were strongly, strongly discouraged from studying the bible together. And numerous times the care group leaders were discouraged from leading a bible study. Actually now that they have been confronted, they are allowing one study to be taught by an approved lay man. I truly hope that this is a new leaf for this local church, though I am not very hopeful, because of other things I have heard.
So we should all be careful with sweeping generalizations. I am glad that you, Steve, had your experience, but it is not universal, anymore that WIF’s experience is universal.
May 15th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
Cala:
Thank you for your point and I was speaking in general terms only about CLC which has always been touted as the “flagship” or even “mother” church of SGM. The warp and woof of other churchs under SGMs umbrella I cannot speak about.
They only response I could think of to your report that there is a church under the SGM umbrella that actually is discouraging members to NOT study scripture together or only have bible studies that are pastor lead is RUN, RUN, RUN in the other direction. This is classic cult leadership behavior and I find it difficult to believe–no aspersions toward you Cala–just if it is true then my heart is is saddened.
Listen folks, I have no problem using the “C” word. I beleive some of the practices of Covenant Life Church are cult like. I believe their theology is generally pretty orthodox reformed Calvinism. It’s their practice of making their local church polity-the way they “do” church, into imperitives that must be obeyed that is the problem. A popular teaching from years ago at CLC and is still tuaght today regarding submission to leadership is: If leadership is telling you that you should do something and it is not unbiblical, unethical, or immoral, then you should do it. Well, this is a probelm since the will of God for specific people is often shown to us by others but should never, never be imposed on us by others.
I cannot even think of a good reason why a pastor would be telling anyone that they cannot have a bible study with others. How would they even know and more importantly why would they care except to be encouraged. I think we may not know the whole story here and it does not appear that the person or people that this happened to are here commenting. I disagree with CLC and I guess by extention SGM on issues ranging form theology to polity but I think without specifics, this particular issue is not one that I can beleive without those specifics. But that is just me and people can and will believe and accept many things without the least bit of evidence or proof.
Shalom
May 15th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Hey Steve,
Thanks for coming here, and for your candor. I am a former CLC’er from
about 1983. In my experience, the issue is not the study of the bible,
as much as it is someone taking a “leadership” role in the organization and
guidance of a group study.
I have seen both sides.
My wife and two of her friends used to meet and study the bible together, and that was not an issue.
I had a friend who started out the same way. Two or three of his Bud’s just singing a few songs and reflecting on a passage or two.
His group began to grow as the men found it “encouraging” and started inviting other friends. The study became more purposeful, and a venue for questions about practices and Sunday messages.
Unable to answer some of the questions, he went to his CG leader, who promptly got a pastor involved.
The short was that he was put under church discipline.
His heart was to fellowship, and deepen his understanding of the word.
May 15th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
hi Steve, and thank you for your candor and honesty. It is refreshing to hear from someone who has truly been with PDI et al for ‘30 years’.
Having been at FCC for years and in CG’s there, I am wondering if there is something about what you call a Bible Study that is different than what I would call one. That is, we read books that contained Scriptures, but now that I am out of SGM and have actually attended and done Bible Studies with CBS and others, I can tell you that no, in 10yrs, between Fairfax and Colorado there were no Bible Studies offered or endorsed or led, to my knowledge, within the SGM churches I have known.
In fact, at some point – perhaps while working on the Titus 2 project – Carolyn Mahaney reportedly said that women should NOT be in Bible Studies together without the oversight of their husbands because it can lead to dissent. This was reported as “gospel” by the x-pastor in Colorado, and verified by a CLC friend of ours. Neither the friend nor the pastor cited specific verses upon my asking. So sadly a new Believer who came to our SGM satellite church was offered a Bible Study by another woman who was going to use Navigator materials to help this woman get rooted in the Word and the (X-)pastor told her no, the studying of the Word should be led by this womans (newly saved) husband, not another woman.
I do remember going over books, such as the Excellent Wife, or one of Whitney’s books, or “Why Small Groups?” and the feeling was – in both FCC and in CO – that we were supposed to ‘get it’ – that is, swallow hook, line and sinker, whatever it is that approved author was saying. But that is not, to me, a Bible Study.
If you had people leading and engaging in an actual study of Scriptures, perhaps that is why you stayed so long!
May 15th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Hi Pfr:
I am not certain what you are trying to say. From what you wrote it appears you mean to communicate that this person was put under church discipline because he started a bible study. Is that what you mean?
At least at CLC, putting someone under church discipline (in the Matthew 18 sense) was a long process and would be only for an area of unrepentant sin–not just sin the person was blind to but sin that the person acknowledged and then refused to do anything about. And iot would be for a sin that was clearly defined such as adultery, lying, and other clear moral lapses. I know I sound like an apologist for CLC here but I am not. I am an apologist for truth and frankly anyone can get on any blog in the world and say such and such happened without any connection to what really ocurred. There is no accountability on blogs, either personal reponsibility when one checks their own integrity or accountability from others. I cannot say that I beleive you and I cannot say I don’t beleive you but I can only give my testimony that at CLC I never heard, in 30 years, nor would I expect to hear about someone be put under church discipline for starting a bible study.
What does a “venue for questions about practices” mean? That is pretty vague language.
Please hear me–once again I left CLC over some of the very same issues discussed here but I will not and cannot as a Christian abide or partake in sloppy thinking and vague and unsubstantiated stories about what goes on in other SGM churches. As I stated in my first post. I was there 30 years and saw and experienced everything from the effects of shepherding (including the correction of the worst parts of it), the Charles Schmidt situation, the broken relationship with Pastor Kline and the attempts (many of them) at reconciliation, Larry Tomczak’s departure, Che Ahn’s departure, and many personal experiences where there were plenty of opputunities for pastors to “lord” it over me but who did not. I saw the church change for a sloppy agape charismatic community who thought that doctrine was a bad word to embracing a Reformed systematic theology complete with their very own Dr. Wayne Grudem-trained staff thelogian. I saw them go from a college of elders form of church government with the rule that unanimity must be acheived before major changes were made to a formalized hierarchy of Senior Pastor in CJ who pretty much everyone followed and submitted to regardless of their own ideas (and this was voluntary becuase it fit in with their developed theology of submission to authority (which I now think is problematic)).
Since you were at CLC at the same time I was , off-line tell me the names and the situation in more detail as I probably know the people involved so this can be judged rightly and not just stand as claims made anonymously.
Your servant,
Steve
May 15th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Steve, welcome to the refuge.
Because CLC is so segregated by gender you may not be aware that women are discouraged from studying the Bible in small groups together. When I was in a CLC married caregroup in the late 90s in Gary Ricucci’s sphere, the ladies were starving for real Bible Study. We wanted to use the Kay Arthur’s Precept study books–and started to see some growth in both learning and true fellowship beyond the sin-sharing with bright and shiny faces. This lasted a very short season (several months perhaps). No one was church-disciplined for this, because we caved (I mean, obeyed).
In my 20 years at CLC (1986 to 2007), I saw very little real Bible study (like the Inductive studies I did in college with Inter-Varsity)–unless it was Pastor-led or CGL-led. There was more studying the Bible in home groups earlier on, but this changed, as I recall, with the shift to care groups. CLC did have a reading through the Bible challenge–complete with a Pastoral pancake breakfast. Kids do memorize verses. Folks get grilled regularly about quiet times – and what they’re reading in that time.
Steve, with all due respect, demanding names isn’t really your job.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:38 am
Hi All:
To the moderator. I inadvertently sent a partial response from my cell phone that I was in the middle of composing. The post had my cell phone number on it. Would you please delete the post before it gets published.
Thank you.
May 16th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Dearest Acme:
My apologies if you took my request for specifics as a demand. It was not intended as such. Besides that it was directed to someone else not you and that person would be free to either offer specifics (off-line) or not. Besides that, I believe it is every Christian’s “job” to seek as much as the truth as possible especially when claims of wrong doing are involved. This is a public forum so basically anything goes and there is no way to verify and confirm accuracy and truth except by asking for specifics and if possible as many perspectives or sides as possible.
I cannot comment on your other statements other than to say I wonder why my wife never told me about that stuff either when it was happening or now since we are no longer members of CLC. hmmmmmm
Steve
May 16th, 2009 at 8:18 am
Steve,
I don’t believe I know you well enough for endearments like “dearest”.
I see several possibilities for why your wife didn’t talk to you about this. She never felt the lack as CLC keeps you pretty busy. She may not have been involved in Bible studies in other contexts and may have no basis for comparison. She may have found a great pocket of freer thinkers. My three semesters in a homeschooling co-op a few years ago showed me the feminine side of CLC in ways I never got to experience as an employed mother of public school children.
When you say, “hmmmmmm” are you doubting the veracity of my pretty durn specific recollection? I believe that Sydney was also involved in the CG at this point and could vouch for me, but I’m not sure why you would doubt me.
What would I possibly gain by lying? My picture, my story (click on my “handle”), and my real initials are all here.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Steve,
Welcome! I’m glad you’re here. You can call me Jim.
If you ever have a problem with a posted comment, please call me or send me an email. Contact info is on the ‘about’ page.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Hey Steve,
In regard to the group that I mentioned, here is some of the context and bacground.
I am sure you recall all the fanfare surrounding CLC paying off its mortgage,
I recall CJ saying how wonderful it was, and all the appreciation that he had for the sacrificial giving that made it possible.
Shortly after that, there was the new push for the new building. Many Sundays were dedicated to vision of the expansion. I remember the following:
Bob Schickler going through some pretty nifty charts on the growth of the school, and the benefits the new building would have. There were numerous members brought fourth with their testimonies of sacrificial giving, PDI had a Sunday where the underscored how nice it would be to exist under the same roof.
During the construction there were many Sundays where we thanked Dustin Construction, Pleasants Excavating, numerous pastors who lent there “decorating” ides to the project, ETC.
This was all underscored by statements of how, thanks to the outpouring of faith as expressed in the sacrificial giving, we would be moving into the building debt free.
The grand opening, of course, was an event in itself.
At what point were we informed of the extra $6,000,000.00 that we borrowed for the late additions of the basketball courts, wood paneling, moveable seating, etc.?
After the fact.
Some of the guys in the group had a concern about this. As it turned out, members do not have a voice or vote, other than their feet, when it comes to CLC. Through a few weeks, the group was deemed “divisive” as they were not trusting their leaders. Some brought quotes from earlier messages, and in love, kindness, and humility, tried to “understand” why the Pastors would say one thing, but do another.
The Pastors were even reminded of the few scripture quotes that they put fourth, but in their later actions ignored.
The pastoral responses were less than humble or transparent.
What the Pastors expressed was that this group had left the covering of their leaders, and were in the realm of potential heresy / falling away from God’s truth.
The Pastors pointed to the seeming “Distrust” that this unsanctioned activity had brought to them, and were told that not trusting the Pastors was not trusting God. Some were even told that perhaps they were not Christians.
Some of these same people gave over six figures!!
All the families involved have since left.
There are more examples of groups that were closed up, or asked to have a CG leader
come in if they were feeling led to proceed. We have to stay on the “same path,” and under our covering.
I will be contacting them over the next few days to see if they would be interested in posting more specifics on their exchanges.
May 16th, 2009 at 10:58 am
It is common knowledge that SGM churches do not have Bible studies. If you are interested in doing a Bible study, you either have to go to another church or have one in your home that is unsanctioned and unknown to the pastors. Because most people do not question the pastors, they are satisified studying/reading books written by men/women who have views that line up with SGM or reading blogs by so called “godly” men and women whose views line up with SGM, swallowing every word that these authors have written as truth. Have you noticed how many from SGM even speak the same words? Much of this comes from books they have read from CJ et al’s sanctioned books. Very controlling and manipulative. I have noticed an air of superiority and actually bragging from some who are always up on the latest SGM reads.
Steve, Jim is very careful with this blog and takes posts off that he cannot verify. I can vouch for that because he recently took one of mine off even though my info came from 3 sources that I consider to be very reliable. Jim cares about the truth. That is why he started this blog in the first place.
May 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I have never been in SGM, but I am following this discussion and trying to understand how this “family of churches” operates. The reason: SGM’s polity seems to be having an influence on powerful leaders outside of SGM who label themselves as “reformed”.
I asked a question several weeks ago about whether Bible studies are “allowed” in SGM, and some of the commenters Steve has taken to task were responding to my inquiry. For those of you who provided me with insights into SGM’s rules regarding Bible studies, please know that I have never questioned your integrity, and I absolutely believe you are telling the truth as you perceive it.
As I have been learning about SGM since last fall, I have come to realize that it’s EXTREMELY important to define terms and concepts very specifically. For instance, what does “Bible study” mean in the SGM world? I would really appreciate Steve answering that question for all of us.
In my corner of Christendom, doing a Bible study means studying Scripture, and laypeople (both men and women) are encouraged to lead these studies. They do not need to be done under the “supervision” of a pastor or care group leader. I have done Bible studies written by NavPress, Henry Blackaby, Beth Moore, Jennifer Kennedy Dean, and many others. There are some really good ones out there! I even spent 7 years in Bible Study Fellowship.
Often these studies cover a specific book of the Bible. In several instances, I have “facilitated” the Bible study myself, and I can testify that our discussions have always been led by the Holy Spirit.
He truly led the study!
I believe it’s extremely important to point out that studying a SGM approved book instead of “The Book” should NEVER be considered a Bible study. I would label that kind of group as a book club. Bible studies are just that — the study of the Bible.
Could we please keep the discussion going so that I can finally understand what SGM means when they say they allow “Bible studies”?
Finally, are women “allowed” to lead Bible studies with other women in Sovereign Grace Ministries without being under a man’s supervision? If not, WHY NOT?
May 16th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Wanda, Years ago, JB did allow a group of women to do a Weigh Down Workshop (Gwynn Shamblin) in a home led by a woman. This was before Gwynn Shamblin got all kooky in her doctrine about the Trinity. I guess this was a type of Bible study and was the only study of this nature that I know of occurring through my SGM church in 10+ years there. Other than that, as I said in an earlier post, if someone wanted a true Bible study, you had to go to another church or do it in a home with others, unsanctioned and unknown by the pastors. Many women did one or the other because they were hungry for the Word.
Pastors reasons for not allowing Kay Arthur, Beth Moore, and others is because in some churches men may attend these studies and the pastors are totally against women teaching men in any context!!! Truth is (I believe) the pastors want to control all interpretation of the Scripture and do not want to take any chances that something may be taught that SGM disagrees with. It is all about controlling and manipulating the sheep and telling them what they can and cannot think.
May 16th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Fred,
Thanks for your earlier comment. I think we were posting around the same time, so I didn’t have the benefit of reading what you wrote prior to my further inquiry about Bible studies.
I agree with you that SGM seems to be all about authority and control of the flock.
Can you clarify something for me? Have women in SGM ever been able to lead a Bible study for ONLY women (besides Carolyn Mahaney) based on your experience? Thanks!
May 16th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
A few years back there was a sanctioned ‘bible study’ for single women. The ’study’ material was all stuff that had been heard/read before in women’s ministry – heavy use of C Mahaney’s tapes [i.e. - biblical beauty, the Leah teaching], Mahaney girls writings, approved articles, approved CD’s from various pastors.) All single women were encouraged to be involved, regardless of age/maturity.
It was all retread boring stuff that was useful to indoctrinate young (18-24) women into SGM’s way of being a woman. If you had been in SGM for more than 5 years you’d already read all the material and sat through all the teachings. It was tedious.
I was in the first round of it. Then they did it again, no changes.
That wasn’t a bible study, it was a Mahaney Ladies Reproduction Study. I just wanted to study Romans. Or James. Or Luke. Or Ephesians. Or Lamentations. Or Job. Anything Bibley. Instead it was all about how to be like Carolyn Mahaney.
It did encourage quiet times.
May 16th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Fred and Wanda,
In my 19 years as part of a large SGM church, womens Bible studies were never encouraged. When in the early years of our attendamce, I would ask a cg leader about having a womens Bible study—the answer was always the same—’we really are all so busy raising our children,tending to the home, Bible studies are distracting from those priorities.’ One time in the early ’90’s a woman did have permission to lead and host a womens Bible study in her home—around 10-20 women would come. It continued for about two months, I believe—then the pastors shut it down. The main reason was because during the study as a woman might share a trial or need, there would then flow prayer and ministry. The pastors didnot agree with the freedom of ministry to women without a pastors physical oversight. Then, just 2 years ago, we were in another state in an SGM church: A friend loaned me the video Bible study of Beth Moores “Breaking Free”. I have a close friend who lives far from the church and fellowship—and so we decided to do the study in our home and ask some other women who were also “empty nesters” if they would like to participate. First, tho, my friend decided to let the pastors know of our Bible study plans. They “highly discouraged” it because they had been told by men at the Pastors College that Beth Moore teaches ‘exegisically’ (sp???) and that she does teach a Sunday School class in her home church that is attended by both men and women (therefore that disqualifies her in SGMs eyes). When I spoke to my pastor about this response, I told him that then I would need to stop listening to Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Elisabeth Elliott on the radio—both of whom SGM highly endorses—because these women would of course know that their teaching on the radio would have a high probability of being heard by men. I then also told him that my friend and I had decided to just do the study with the two of us—to which he replied “oh, then in that case, its alright.” !!!!!!!!! From these experiences I have realized this is simply another area in SGM that is kept under control. You see, when people gather together and study scripture, and the leader and others involved are genuinely seeking God,He will answer—Jesus invites us to “ask,seek and knock” to receive answers and an open door to His Truths. Our mind, heart, soul and spirit is engaged. SGM does not encourage people to think and inquire of the Lord for themselves. I was involved for many years when my children were small, with “Bible Study Fellowship”—womens studies held in Baptist churches—these studies were began and authored by Gladys Alyward, the missionary to China. Holy Spirit has given gifts–the gift of teaching is also given to women—they can teach other women. Gods Word is LIFE and this annointed life begins to move and heal, and bring Light to bondages, heals brokenness…processes to redemptive abundant life. This is what SGM draws back from when they are not “controling”it. It is not just the women who were discouraged ot have Bible studies, but the men also—”keep the main thing the main thing”—stay at the Cross”. **** As for our family, we do now live in the light of the resurrection and the Life since leaving SGM this past year. And studying the Bible in Bible Study at our new church has become a glorious avenue of refreshing and excitement as we journey forward……..
May 16th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Wanda wrote: Could we please keep the discussion going so that I can finally understand what SGM means when they say they allow “Bible studies”? Finally, are women “allowed” to lead Bible studies with other women in Sovereign Grace Ministries without being under a man’s supervision? If not, WHY NOT?
Wanda is perceptive in wondering what the definition of a “Bible study” is in the SGM world. My SGM experience for over 10 years has been like Defended’s experience because we were in the same 2 SGM churches. As a single woman, I read books written by both male and female authors within SGM, such as Sheree Phillips, who wrote books such as A Royal Calling – Develop the Qualities of Esther in Your Own Life (Amazon uses Beverly LaHaye’s name as a co-author of this book, but I think she only wrote the Foreword). Of course, this book was based on the Book of Esther. We studied SGM-approved books that used Scripture as references. In this sense, we studied the Bible together.
Since I have left SGM, I have participated in 2 Beth Moore Bible Studies with Bible Study workbooks and DVDs. Both were excellent, and I especially recommend Beth’s Breaking Free: Making Liberty in Christ a Reality in Life. These Bible Studies were more in-depth because they have workbooks that require you to look up a lot of Scripture on your own, answer workbook questions based on the Scripture, and discuss your answers in class.
However, I did not see a Bible study like Beth Moore’s used in the two SGM Churches I went to, the last of which I left in Sept. 2001. Of course, Beth’s studies have grown in popularity over the years so maybe she just wasn’t well known back then. The Breaking Free Bible study was published in 1999.
I do not know if other SGM churches have used Bible studies like Beth Moore’s. My guess is that they wouldn’t for several reasons. First, Beth, Kay Arthur, et al. are not part of an SGM church. Two, their husbands are not teachers with them. What I mean by this is that, for example, Carolyn Mahaney and other women in leadership teach because their husbands are in leadership and teach. I’m not saying that the women in themselves don’t have a teaching gift; I’m saying that their role as a teacher of women in SGM is based on the role that their husbands have as teachers in SGM. If for some reason, C.J. stepped down from leadership and no longer taught, I do not think Carolyn Mahaney would continue in her teaching role at a high level within SGM. Why? Because her role in SGM is based on her husband’s role.
There are other reasons why non-SGM Bible studies might not be used in SGM. To be fair to SGM, I believe SGM’s original intent was to guard the flock from erroneous teaching because James 3:1-2 says “Let not many of you become teachers… because we all stumble in many ways” (NASB). However, I think that over the years, this has become twisted into legalism to the point that the flock may be guarded against good Bible studies like Beth’s and hence may not experience the freedom that Jesus promises by knowing the truth (John 8:32).
Since I don’t attend a local SGM church today, I don’t know for sure at the present time if women are “allowed” to lead Bible studies with other women in SGM without being under a man’s supervision. Based on my past experience, I would say probably not. Again, to be fair to SGM, I think it was to protect the woman teacher and the women she is teaching. For example, if a married woman taught a class, her husband or care group leader would not attend the class, but would probably communicate with her about how it was going. If there were any issues, such as an unresolved conflict that arose between 2 women, one of them would make suggestions or get more personally involved to help resolve the conflict. Again, this was the original intent, but I think it has become distorted and too controlling over the years.
Hope this helps.
May 16th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Hey PFR:
Thank your for the reply. I appreciate the detail you went into and am grateful that you let me know what it was you were referring to. Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding of what you wrote earlier. The way your post read gave the impression that the reason the men were put under church discipline was simply because they were having a non-pastor lead bible study. I understood the context of the conversation to be about non-pastor lead bible studies. Please let me know if that was your understanding of the context at the time. It does seem from your more specific account that it was not the bible study itself that was the issue but the perceived attitudes of the men with the questions. That scenario is one I can relate to and agree completely that the way CLC leadership responds to questions and issues is pretty much always to receive with suspesion and even an assumption of guilt about the persons motives who brings the issues and questions. CLC leadership wants members to believe the way they believe, what the believe and practice only in the way they believe members should. CLC leadership will “invite” members to leave who will not conform to their way of doing and believing even about non-essentials.
It is ironic to me that what happened in this specific incident, especially the way leadership responded is one of the other reasons why I left. Virtually anyone I have know that went to the pastors with issues or questions about what leadership was doing were either told they had sinful attitudes or they were ignored and subsequently virtually shunned by the pastors.
Some have asked in other posts what I mean by bible study. Bible study to me means using the bible as a source book for a particular topic, subject or even just a word and reading , studying, meditating on and discussing the relevant passages. Bible study is the chief means of grace God uses to communicate his will for us and how we should respod to him. I would use various reference materials such as a bible dictionary, thesaurus, concordance and probably a few different commentaries. I do not mean reading a book about what someone else has to say on a given topic. Hope this helps clear up any confusion or questions.
Yours in Grace
Steve
May 16th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Waters wrote:
“SGM does not encourage people to think and inquire of the Lord for themselves.”
Waters,
Thank you for your extremely informative and enlightening response to my question.
SGM is sounding more and more like the Catholic church all the time! (I hope R.T. is reading!) Only the Catholic hierarchy has the ability to interpret Scripture. Hogwash!!!
I believe in the Priesthood of the Believer and believe it or not all you SGM “apostles”, the Holy Spirit interprets Scripture for me!
And yes, I’m a woman (the “gullible” and “easily deceived” gender — according to an article on the CBMW website). I’ll post the link if anyone is interested.
May 16th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Steve said:
“At least at CLC, putting someone under church discipline (in the Matthew 18 sense) was a long process and would be only for an area of unrepentant sin–not just sin the person was blind to but sin that the person acknowledged and then refused to do anything about. And iot would be for a sin that was clearly defined such as adultery, lying, and other clear moral lapses.”
Don’t forget about the other way that leadership in CLC puts people under “church discipline”; they “ask” people to leave
Thus what you said above is true but with a number of people, the CLC Leadership way of dealing with disagreement in a number of cases was to “ask” someone to leave.
Greg C. commented early on in this blog something along the lines that he questioned why this number was so high.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Hi Steve,
Glad you are here. You posted earlier:
“I cannot even think of a good reason why a pastor would be telling anyone that they cannot have a bible study with others. How would they even know and more importantly why would they care except to be encouraged. I think we may not know the whole story here and it does not appear that the person or people that this happened to are here commenting.”
I just wanted to add a little bird seed to the conversation. In all my years at PDI/SGM (early 1980’s til 1997), we rarely opened our bibles anywhere, in any meeting. I stopped carrying mine to church. As the years went by, the grip on us by “authority” became tighter. We were allowed to have several women’s meetings where women ministered to one another, but that was shut down because the Holy Spirit showed up. Apparently, we women could not be trusted to handle that.
This happened again in a women’s care group, with the cg leader’s wife. We experienced the Holy Spirit as He began to knit our hearts together. This was shut down, and we were given lists of sins to discuss in the meetings from then on. Needless to say, there was no more ministering by an unwelcome Holy Spirit…
I also had a friend who moved in the gift of healing. She would pray for women and children who were out in the foyer, during church time. There were several healings, including my young son’s eye condition. When leadership discovered what was happening, they told her she could only pray up front at the end of the meeting, with supervision. I’m sorry to say, this gift was eventually crushed in her by the controlling ways of the pastor.
I do think that the male leadership was very controlling in what we could do, what we were allowed to listen to (attending outside “other” church meetings was discouraged), and they did not trust when the Holy Spirit wished to move amongst the people, hence the shut-down of a “refreshing” we were experiencing in the Charlotte church around 1995-96. Our care group leader told us the leaders did not wish to go in “that direction”.
I hope this helps in your desire to clarify the issues. In my experience of SGM life (Fairfax and Charlotte), we were treated as perpetual adolescents. not to be trusted with anything more serious thannursery duty or baking brownies for a church function. If that is the way women wish to live in the church, dispensing with all their freedom and giftings once they enter churchdom, that is their choice, This female canary has found her freedom in Christ, and will never willingly give it away again.
May 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Steve240 said,
“Thus what you said above is true but with a number of people, the CLC Leadership way of dealing with disagreement in a number of cases was to “ask” someone to leave. ”
Other methods of keeping the sheep under control were to show displeasure through shunning, or through disqualifiying one for leadership. Very powerful tools to use against people who have learned the importance of “being a blessing to their pastors.” To be on the out with a leader is very painful and scary, especially if you truly believe that the leader stands in the very stead of God. Slaves fear to loose their master’s good will…
May 17th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Another method of Keeping the sheep from fleeing the abusive atmosphere at Sovereign Grace Churches is to do what the Chesapeake Church has resorted to: Give those who are planning on leaving a position in quasi-leadership(but not real-genuine leadership, since one who is contemplating leaving can not really be trusted)…make them feel important to the beloved pastors, and feed their flesh, so they won’t leave…or…encourage the youth to marry, and marry only within the boarders of Sovereign Grace Churches…after all, why should a young person look elsewhere for a mate and be “unequally yoked.” (also being perpetrated within the confines of the Chesapeake Sovereign Grace Church.)
May 18th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Re:Steve and Bible studies – I also went to CLC for several years not too long ago, and I do think they discouraged Bible studies (especially formal ones done by non pastors). I was specifically told by many people in leaders hsip, including cg leaders and pastors that it was wrong to be in a Bible study with peopel outside of the church. I also know that our Cg wanted to do a book of the Bible for CG. We had many of the member request it and our CG leader had to fight to be allowed to go through a book of the Bible, the pastor did not want him to do it. And our CG leader was more trained in the Bible than any of oru pastors – he had an mdiv form a freformed seminary. While i know some people got together to discuss the Bible on their own, most often groups of singles who lived together, i never expereince any real Bible study while at CLC or any where to get any. My now wife really wanted to do Bible study and have theological training and could not find any. The only real theological training was the discipleship? groups that were for potential CG leaders, and those were men only, and were some theology and little Bible study.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:58 am
HI All:
Well even though this information about the discouragement of non-pastor lead bible study groups is news to me, I certainly cannot deny the weight of the testimonies here. I am also at a complete loss as to my brain processing this information because of the implications revealed by this and many other practices at CLC. While I find it easy to critique issues of the church polity of CLC because many of those issues are non-essential to either my faith or wider christendom, this practice, for whatever reasoning is behind it by the leadership of CLC and I presume SGM, is absolutely outside of the pale of christian orthodoxy–this is abherrent –if true.
I share the following with the intention of not doubting anyone’s word or experience here but simply want to express that in spite of my major differences with CLC, I find it very difficult to beleive that this practice is actually going on. If true, then CLC has crossed over to the dark side and while that is clearly not a reveleation to many here, it is to me and it is not a good reveleation to contemplate. Through some back channel contacts i have with current members of CLC and a CG leader to boot (a man I can ask this question to and not worry about it being passed on) I am going to, at least prove to myself first hand that this is either true or not. This is my own quest and I would simply ask those here to give me a little space to do this to not be offended at my doubt at the word of those here who have experienced this. Thank you.
Steve
May 18th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Steve,
So much of what is written here is personal experience. Some pastors in sgm may encourage Bible study groups, other may discourage them. In the larger sgcs, there might be diversity among the pastors.
It would be interesting to know what’s happening in Gilbert, as this was a hot button issue among some members, and the sr p promised change in this area.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:37 am
HI Jim:
Thanks for the comment. I realize there is probably some differences in the way local SGM churches do things but the fact that the group bible study issue is practiced in any churches under SGM’s umbrella is more than a little disturbing to me.
Steve
May 18th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Hi all!
If what has been said about the Bible Study is true, as a pastor, I am at a loss.
Although I am sure as Jim said, there are SGM pastors who DO encourage Bible Studies among the believers. It is a joy of a pastor when the congregation take up the Bible and study among themselves.
But I also know some pastors (non-SGM) who DO NOT encourage Bible Studies among believers. And their issue is: Insecurity.
These pastors are not confident in their teaching skills or Bible knowledge, so they feel threatened when a lay believer knows more stuff than they do. So they will discourage it somehow. I have seen and heard it directly.
Insecurity without humility is deadly in ministry. Even though you may be insecure, but if you are humble, then you will be able to overcome your insecurity and give the congregation the benefit of doubt and allow them to study the Bible.
I wish that my fellow workers in God’s Vineyard would be free from insecurity and find security and hope in Christ alone. And through diligence and constant study of God’s word, they may feed true knowledge of God to His sheep. I pray that God will grant us the shepherds after His own heart (Jer. 3:15).
May 18th, 2009 at 11:32 am
doulos,
I share your wish and prayer.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Anyone care to offer a response to the following question…………
What is the average age of the recent PC graduates?
N.S.L.B.
May 18th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
I would say mid to late twenties. Our new pastor is there right now, and he’s older than that, but looking at pics here, they sure do look young.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Steve,
I admire your open-mindedness, and your desire to find the truth out for yourself. Although we write openly about our experiences, I understand why you would need to dig a little deeper before drawing your own conclusions. That is admirable. I hope that you will feel free to share what you learn with the rest of us when you can. Truth is loved, here. God bless and good hunting!
May 18th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Wanda–
Quizzler–do you mean in actual years…or in emotional years…or in high school grade level?
May 18th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Oh my GOSH!
I just opened the link that CD provided.
Under the description of what the guys do each week is this:
300 pages per week. This is supposed to be rigorous? Good thing these guys aren’t in one of my high school classes. I just asked my daughter about reading at her college, each class usually required 200 pages each per week: 500-900 pages was the norm for the normal undergraduate load.
6 research papers? Are you kidding me?
I remember that I posted some of the stuff that ‘real’ seminaries were doing outside the classroom–those guys were doing 300 hours of service to churches: filling pulpits, doing youth ministry, prison ministry…these PC guys meet with CJ once a month, and fellowship together.
57 hours of preaching, on Fridays, for their whole training? Twenty pastors and 57 total hours? What the heck?
WAKE UP, SGM. YOUR MEN ARE WOEFULLY UNDERTRAINED!!!!
May 18th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
RT-they don’t have to complete “all” 300 pages. Follow the link to the message in the original post and listen the the previous week’s message, which is a “PC Update”.
Very telling….
May 19th, 2009 at 3:08 am
Just curious, but no Hebrew language class?
Although, I do prefer Greek over Hebrew, in OT messages, you need Hebrew – at least basic knowledge of it.
I just find it little odd… I guess PC has different emphasis… So more power to them. If they are effective in producing Christlike pastors, I am all for it.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Steve,
I also respect your desire for truth and believe that those posting here have the same desire. I would like to caution you as you speak with SGM care group leaders and pastors in your search for the truth. Pray for discernment from Holy Spirit that you will have eyes to see truth vs. deception and ears to hear. I have observed first hand with my own eyes and heard story and after story from others that I trust, of SGM pastors and apostles telling people what they think you want to hear and what they believe will satisfy you and make you happy with SGM no matter what the real truth is. This is done very purposefully and intentionally to keep people in the church, to calm people down and to shed a positive light on SGM. This was seen through Gene Emerson’s statement to the 3 couples that the pastors just needed to learn a “different way” to do things – never mind that it wasn’t coming from their heart, wasn’t genuine, and wasn’t true [to keep the flock happy and content]. KB learned quickly (but maybe not quickly enough). He sat at a later meeting with the 3 couples and demonstrated that he indeed had learned a different way: as they encouraged the use of non-paid elder boards, KB agreed that this was a very good idea, all along having no intention of ever allowing non-paid, non-pastoral elders.
This is all very sad because you cannot sit down and have a discussion with an SGM leader and walk away with confidence that you have found the truth and know #1. what SGM’s beliefs really are and #2 what SGM’s policies are and #3 how they are really operating. That is why the experiences of people writing on these blogs are so important. As you read the blogs you see patterns emerging that are the same throughout SGM churches and this cannot be denied.
It is a very sad state of affairs indeed!
May 19th, 2009 at 11:01 am
For thousands of years, the Church has benefitted from the Fathers of the Church, who have spent their lives studying the Word in original languages, studying the history of the People, writing thoughtful helps for us when we are seeking clarity.
Now, SGM trains pastors who know little to nothing about history, who are not equipped to engage the world of ideas, who have not read great literature, who do not know the story of the Church.
They think they are superior to anyone born before 1960. This is ludicrous, arrogant and dangerous. Yet they write away, probably believing that their words should carry great import. How juvenile.
Augustine? Athanasius? Ambrose? Gregory? Why are they no longer important? Calvin, Luther, Knox? They have nothing to add?
This makes me laugh out loud. Such silliness. Such americanized self focus.
The great Christian thinkers of history would chortle to think that 300 optional pages a WEEK is rigorous. Chesterton used to read 500 pages a day, in addition to his own writing and reading.
Does anyone have a book list? I would LOVE to know what books they are studying.
This is not the way Jesus grew in wisdom–he studied the very Word he spoke, he spent time in the synagogue, with the elders. He and Paul constantly quoted Scripture, Paul knew world history and would use it to engage the lost around him. Paul, an apostle, was an incredibly learned scholar.
Why is it a good thing to jettison the work of God in his Church. This is anti-reformed: we pres-types see history as one unbroken line of the passion of God for his people, yet SGM thinks they discovered the Holy Grail in the 1970s.
Coming from Mormonisn, I am strongly reminded of the mindset of the LDS–the proud feeling that ‘we have been shown ultimate truth,’ and that all other churches were deeply flawed.
Blecch, blecch and triple blecch.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Here’s the list from the 2005-2006 PC class. Click Here. I doubt it has changed much since then.
May 19th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Doulous, regarding the SGM pastor’s supposed insecurity as a reason for not permitting nor encouraging Bible study among the congregation….
….I’ve felt that they discourage individual group Bible studies because of fear the people might interpret the Scriptures for themselves and come to conclusions on doctrinal beliefs, polity beliefs, ecclesiastic beliefs, etc that differ from what SGM wants them to believe. I think they fear the Holy Spirit. They do not trust the Holy Spirit to teach the people what they (SGM) want the people to believe, therefore they must silence the Holy Spirit by silencing Bible study.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
REMNANT said.I’ve felt that they discourage individual group Bible studies because of fear the people might interpret the Scriptures for themselves and come to conclusions on doctrinal beliefs, polity beliefs, ecclesiastic beliefs, etc that differ from what SGM wants them to believe.
I agree but would say it more simply: I think SGM leaders see the power available if everyone believes the same thing and Christians aren’t always debating and discussing. They maybe want to control what is believed through those teachers in their movement who are tested and approved. Save time, be correct, get it right, yep…..everybody on the same page.
That is what I think. But what I KNOW in my own life is: when I study myself and have to look up things and hear other views which differ from mine I become engaged in seeking and learning and loving my God. I cannot JUST hear it on Sundays from my pastor. That is encouragement yes, but I love to be engaged in learning of my God , about my Savior and through the direction of my help: the Holy Spirit.
I think they do not SEE that ALL of us need to engage relationally with our Savior in growing and learning and sharing. In this way we are simply JUST LIKE THEM.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
RT,
Don’t forget Andrew Murray in your list of church Fathers! I want to meet him in heaven and shake his hand. His books helped to set me free.
May 19th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Canary–spot on! He is a wonder, no?
I’ve gone through the list, many good books indeed! But with 38 weeks x 300 pages per week, it is absolutely impossible to have read them.
So is the 300 page/week number incorrect, or is the list not truly representational of the actual reading, or do they simply read excerpts from these texts?
Thanks for the link, CD!
We’ve experienced a church similar to SGM, and the pastor’s concern was that only he and select elders could actually teach the whole counsel of God.
May 19th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
As far as Bible studies being discouraged – SGM does not want to people to think for themselves. They feel that leads to “sin” an dthi sparticular “sin” is not beliving what they are told from SGM leadership.
On the PC “reading” list – it’s mostly “pop” christianity books (not unlike pop psycology)
May 19th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
Thanks to everyone for your great comments about whether SGM encourages Bible studies. All of the comments are very “telling”. I will be praying for Steve in his pursuit of the truth.
May 19th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I’m glad they showed us the boys can play foseball, minature golf and bowl in between listening to Andy Farmer confuse them.
These boys leave the pastors college, arrogant, prideful and sound alot like little cj bobleheads…..
I was with a child recently who was with “other children” When they were talking about their future, one little sovereign gracer said “I want to grow up and go to the pastors college.” the other children looked at him like what ??????
May 20th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Yeah, I was also surprised by all the ‘fellowship’ pictures of the students and their families. What about pictures of these men engaged in preaching, service to the poor, evangelism, study, study and more study, visiting the sick in hospitals, the shut-ins, more study, youth ministry, children’s ministry…….
I’ve posted before that I have a SGM kid who wants to go to PC because it is ‘only nine months long,’ compared to that murderous 4 undergrad/3 grad years that other pastors have to do.
Why go through seven whole years to prepare for leading a group of believers when you can get it done in nine months!!?
May 20th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
RT said………..”What about pictures of these men engaged in preaching, service to the poor, evangelism, study, study and more study, visiting the sick in hospitals, the shut-ins, more study, youth ministry, children’s ministry”…….
Could it be that the PC is really just …………………
A) a 9-month summer camp?
B) an intro to the future pastoral “country club” within SGM?
C) an indoctrination experience?
D) an elitist training experience?
E) all of the above
N.S.L.B.
May 20th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
“I know!!!! I know!!!!!” (frantically jumping up and down in the chair, waving and wiggling my hand violently in the air.)
Q–you are ALWAYS good for a belly laugh.
May 20th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
Come on guys and girls–this is degenerating into tabloid speculation. How can it possibly matter in light of the more serious questions here about the leadership abuses at SGM churches what kind of pictures are posted about PC attendees and their families? And then to speculate and make snide comments that in my opinion are unchristian –is that really what you you think the love of Jesus is supposed to look like.
Jim, I have been told that you moderate the comments here and I can see that is true for at least one of my posts has not been approved. My question to you is why would you think the last few comments about pictures that stoop to petty name calling are appropriate. This particular category is becoming irrelevant and losing credibility as far as I am concerned and that reflects on the entire blog which if anything has people expressing legitimate concerns over pretty serious issues. One thing that strikes me is that if this blog is meant to do anything influentially about the issues that are raised here it should not be just preaching to the choir. When I first came here and what made me come back were the stories of people’s experiences that paralleled mine. Leave the name calling and snickering comments about those we are in disagreement with to Rush Limbaugh. We have a different Master that we listen to.
Steve the disgusted
May 20th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Steve,
I don’t recall purposely moderating one of your comments. If I did, I sent you an email.
Many comments are randomly stuck in moderation, including my wife’s. It’s a wordpress issue.
I’d also like to see less name calling, and would like everyone to remember that we are talking about fellow believers.
I’m not disgusted, but folks who have been here a while know that I would like everyone to tone down the snark.
May 20th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Steve, look beyond the lightheartedness of these last 2 posts (which I think is absolutely ok and actually necessary at times) and you may very well find that there is quite possibly much truth behind the Quizzler’s questions. Maybe, just maybe, Quizzler knows some things that have not been revealed to you, yet…..
May 20th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Disgusted Steve,
You make some good points, BUT please allow people to express themselves without attempting to moderate–Jim really does that well by himself. People here sometimes just need the freedom to vent, and sometimes that can “disgust” the purist. People change from the inside out, not by regulating how they express themselves. Since people are at different points and with different personalities, they need grace from the group, not correction.
We are all in process, and this is a healing place where expression doesn’t need corrected. This blog will live or die based on its value to those who frequent it.
My words are sent in grace–I do NOT mean to offend.
May 20th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Greetings Jim:
Not to put to fine a point on it but “snark” is another word for mean spirited. Usually snarky comments are used to injure another by pointing out foibles, flaws and failings in a superior or haughty way.
My apologies for the use of the word disgusted–it was snarky
Steve the repentant
May 20th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Steve the repentant,
Nice!!!!
May 20th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Steve-
May 20th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Well Fred I imagine there is lots of stuff that has not been “revelaed” to me. But having been at CLC even before there was a PC I have know some of the young and not so young men that have attended the PC over the years from CLC.
The ones I have known were required to become involved in some depth in the various ministries of CLC. They were all required to be in care groups other than the ones involved with the leadership of the PC, i.e. meeting once a month with CJ. Most of them had families that they needed to nurture and be with. Their jobs were basicallky to go to school full time for 9-10 months.
I think that comparing the PC with undergrad and then post grad smeinary is comparing apples and oranges and I am not certain that the leadership at SGM intends it to replace a more traditional and seminary formal education. Think of it as an Associated Degree or even a Certificate program. I speculate that their intention is to indoctrinate the men and families that attend the PC into the SGM way of doing things and they use the resources (From Brent Detwiler’s reading list) to do that. The reading list is very revealing for both what it has on it and what it does not. It is decidedly heavy with books from men that SGM embraces (at least partially) who are contemporary. There is a smattering of the classics from the Reformed tradition but not much else. It should be no surprise of even a problem for anyone to think they many of the books are from the leadership of SGM/CLC. If you go to a Reformed Seminary you dont read too many books espousing Wesleyan Arminianism except as a critique and the same is true for a Wesleyan Seminary.
I think levity has it’s uses and places of appropriatness. Perhaps I misjudged the tone of the comments perhaps not. I will leave it to the individual posters to determine the motivation behind the comment but as for me–if it smells like a rose and looks like a rose and has thorns like a rose–it probably is a rose.
Steve the not gnostic (secret knowledge that quizzler has)
May 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Hi Gratefully:
Are you attempting to moderate me??? LOL
Steve the Berean
May 20th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Hi Gratefully
BTW no offense taken.
Steve the unoffended
May 20th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Steve,
Touche, my friend!
May 20th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
RT:
Your “anti-reformation” comment at 11:01 is interesting. I wanted to post in response to this Bible study thread but work demands impressed upon my time. Before you posted your comment, I was thinking the same thing that if pastors are the only individuals allowed to teach and interpret scripture in an SGM than SGM has really adopted an pre-reformation view regarding the ability of laity to read and understand the scriptures.
As further evidence of this view, consider the following quote from one of the outlines at the recent SGM Pastors conference. See the highlighted text. I am sure this view would extend to leaders of adult caregroups as well. I did not want to believe that SGM could hold a so-called “anti-reformation” view but how else could you characterize the below. Further evidence that SGM is not truly reformed if at all.
There is a teaching component in youth caregroups that is inadvertently delegated to the youth caregroup leader. Although his responsibilities are limited to asking questions and leading discussions, the caregroup leader will be required to teach in some form, fulfilling a role that is likely not sufficiently gifted for. There is a body of theological understanding needed to direct the conversion and adjust erroneous answers. Youth caregroup leaders are servants, no doubt, but they are not called or equipped to lead through teaching.
May 20th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
Former–excellent points. If they deny a care group leader can be gifted to teach, this would also preclude that leader from ever being able to be chosen as an elder. This only reinforces the right of paid pastors to be the only ‘elders’ in the church.
Steve–I just lost a long reply to your comments. I thought about your words, but just am too busy to reply right now…however I do apologize for a snarky tone. You and Jim are right…we are all fellow believers.
I’ll reply later.
Steve–I am so glad you are here!
May 21st, 2009 at 7:53 am
Great post Jim.
Whenever a church gets planted or someone new takes over, SGM whips out the teaching on leadership, in total cult-like fashion.
SGM’s messages on “leadership” should be heard with red flags flying all over the place. They distort the scriptures to fit their own purposes. If you allow them to, they will rob you of your citizenship in heaven and replace it with the SGM police state. They present it as though it’s THE ONLY WAY to believe, THE BIBLICAL WAY to live out the Christian life in relationship to the church.
“That is not the wisdom which comes down from above: it belongs to earth, to the unspiritual nature, and to evil spirits.”
I think it’s pretty obvious why SGM has their own “Pastor’s College”
May 21st, 2009 at 11:41 am
RT, for what it is worth, I absolutely don’t think you were snarky! Sometimes it is just plain ole’ healthy to lighten up and be merry. Of course, not at the expense of someone else but I don’t think you and Quizzler were doing that. Quizzler brought out some excellent points (that have been observed by others) that need to be considered. I guess my views differ from some on here but that’s ok too. Blessings to all on this wonderful day that the Lord has made!
May 21st, 2009 at 11:13 pm
I’m an interested and occassional reader of this blog; a guy on the inside but asking questions, hence the name. Much of what is said here does not sound like my experience in SGM, but there are a few things that obviously have me thinking. I do have a hard time with the generalizations that everyone in leadership – pastor, CGL, etc. – is shady and out to deceive. What would a CGL in particular have to gain?
This leadership stuff is a bit concerning. I guess the polity does allow for abuse, but it does not necessarily mean abuse must happen.
The Bible study thing is interesting and is something we’ve wondered about too. Pardon these late night ramblings of an interested observer. I guess the main reason I’m writing is to echo Steve’s desire to try to keep a very interesting and helpful discussion from becoming something else.
May 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 am
Hello Inquiring Mind,
In my situation, I trusted the CGL more than the Pastor of Sovereign Grace Ministry. I had a personal relationship with this person, but when the “situation” unfolded, even with obvious discrepancies the caregroup leader “defended” the Pastor who couldn’t have been more WRONG, just because he is a pastor. Do you know how hard it is to go against the fast moving flow of anything. These men did not pray and carefully consider the ways of the church, but built a screen to protect the strong, and in doing so seriously hurt the weak.
It reminds me in business of the wistle blower law, that protects the one who states HEY WAIT SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE. We all know what we believe, but it is much harder to practice. Inquiring Mind the position of the caregroup leader to me, made me think this church was a cult, I could not reason otherwise why this great man of faith would compromise the way he did.
I believe the holy spirit will guide you. Ask the Lord to open your eyes. I am praying for you
May 22nd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
C.J. Mahaney doesn’t have a divinity degree or a college degree-maybe he doesn’t think you need one to run a church.
May 22nd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Janet–
Welcome.
Neither does Josh Harris, senior pastor of CLC.
What do yo make of this?
May 22nd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
OK. Just to be fair, you do not necessarily need to have a degree or even go to the seminary to be a good preacher/teacher/pastor who love God’s flock.
I am not defending CJ or Harris. I do believe that their Pastor’s College could improve in many critical areas.
Both AW Tozer and Charles Spurgeon were self-taught. They do not have college degree or seminary degree. They were self-taught through discipline and passion.
My point is that whether you graduated from a reputable seminary or the Pastor’s College, if you do not keep up with your studies, you are bound to make serious mistakes. I know my colleagues who do not keep up their studies in their ministry do not grow themselves, therefore their congregation ceases to grow as well. On the other hand, both Piper and MacArthur continues to study at length even now, and you see the fruit of their teaching.
It takes a tremendous self-discipline to continue to study after the seminary/pastor’s college. Just my 2 cents.
May 23rd, 2009 at 12:47 pm
When Peter asked for the CHURCH to select leaders to help serve so that He could be free to preach the Word, he told them to choose men filled with “wisdom and the Holy Spirit.” This is the type of leader I would follow.
Side note: this was before Peter realized that women were equally valued and gifted by the Lord, as Paul proves in his letters. But that is entirely off the subject…:)
May 23rd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I have to add that an ideal “team” would be a husband/wife who are filled with wisdom and the Holy Spirit, because I do not forget the importance of male/female roles in the church. Just clarifying!
May 23rd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Jesus is the Master teacher. The disciples who were with him were getting a preeeetie good schooling about the new covenant He was introducing (for lack of a better word).
It’s not like they considered taking courses at Pharisee U but missed the deadline. Besides, Pharisee U only offered Law Degrees (haha I crack myself up)
People back then went to school or studied in order to become proficient in their jobs, and they continue to do so today. Yet, just because the disciples and Jesus didn’t attend seminary, some erroneously conclude that to be like Jesus, all you need is to read the bible, be “gifted”, and you’re good to go!
“Counseling? No problem-o. I can handle that! I’m sure that if I just rely upon my “gifting” I’ll know what to say! Also, no matter what I say, I have the “authority” to speak into people’s lives because…of….of….some vague reason!
Let’s pretend SGM Pastor X hired some Y-Guy to build his house. The Y-Guy had lived in houses all his life – been in basements, bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. He knew his way around the inside of a house, and he knew that a house needed plumbing, electricity, windows, flooring, walls and ceilings, etc. So, since Y-Guy knew enough about the basic requirements of a house, why would he not be qualified to build Pastor X a house himself?
Heck, if Pastor X can go in and start speaking into people’s lives with all sorts of ideas about different things without having expertise in those areas, why can’t a guy start building a house for an SGM Pastor based on those same assumptions? Why must Pastor X understand the intricacies of the human mind, spirit and soul if Y-Guy doesn’t need to understand the intricacies of house contruction?
So, if Pastor X’s house gets built by Y-Guy and Pastor X discovers that not only was the foundation improperly laid, but the walls were falling down the ceiling is leaking, would he blame him for his lack of gifting, or for his lack of education, experience and training?
And what if all Guy-Y said was, “Well, I’m not perfect. I’m a sinner too, ya know. We all make mistakes. I’m sorry if this has somehow affected your life as a family.”
I doubt SGM Pastor X would find that to be an acceptable answer, would you?
I’m not sure that’s what Jesus had in mind in terms of the kind of people He wished to have tend His sheep, know what I mean?
May 23rd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
RT,
You crack us all up!
Certainly there is NOTHING wrong with education. Being taught by other older, wiser believers is a plus for any man or woman going into ministry. However, if a person is called to lead a church, it would be a good thing that he also be full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit. Just my birdseed take on scripture.
May 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Thanks for the response and the prayers, Charlie. I understand that there are many similarities but also many differences and that everyone is writing from their own experience. I’m truly searching here and trying to do (and when). Posting here makes me SO nervous.