Here is my email address: doulos115@hotmail.com

I have reset my blog so that I could receive emails. You will see the “envelope” icon next to “comments” at the end of each blog.

Take care!

No, seriously…I hadn’t read the rest of his posts before I responded and missed seeing that you had moderated him. If I had, I probably would have taken it easy on the guy after seeing him unwind like he did.

I doubt he realizes he’s living in the SGM police state* and probably thinks it’s brutally unfair that you’re moderating him. I’m sure he thinks his “observations” of sin are correct. After all, he’s in SGM and they’re always right!

He can lambaste posters here for talking about SGM all he wants to, but I’m sure that if he were to have a real issue with SGM, he would discover that being placed in moderation on a blog were the least of his problems.

*police state – noun, a nation in which the police, esp. a secret police, summarily suppresses any social, economic, or political act that conflicts with governmental policy.

Paul won’t be responding, as he and I have a few ground rules to work out.

In his defense, he did give his male friends “permission” as well, so I’m not sure he was speaking in the authoritative sense of the word.

I have no idea why I’m defending Paul, as he’s been very hard to reason with.

Just trying to be fair, I guess…

Just a quick response to your post from 5/2/09 at 3:23pm

I must say it was mighty big of you to give your wife permission to talk to other women about her relationship with you

SGM calls that “gossip” – unless, of course, one has “permission” from the person involved!

In the real world you’re allowed to discuss your problems, whether it be with a church, your job, your spouse, etc with a friend. That’s normal. It’s not normal* to get “permission”.

Allow me to dramatize this a little bit.

Wife: “Honey, do you mind if I talk about my life, including my marriage (which involves you) with my friends? Because, honey, I gotta tell you, I think you’ve been acting like the guy in that movie again and so I’m feelin’ the need to talk to my church girlfriends. But you know what this will mean, don’t you? This will mean that others will realize you’re not being a GOOD LEADER again (loud gasp ) and that our marriage isn’t HEAVEN ON EARTH, which means that someone is stuck in their PRIDE again (the only underlying cause of any conflict in SGM).  So, you won’t feel threatened if I talk to my friends, even if it means you will be asked to step down from leading the Care Group and undergo an intensive disciplinary process, will you Love?”

Husband: “Well, that’s ok Dear, because in the end, no matter what happens you’ll have to submit to me anyway regardless of whether or not I change, so it’s up to you. But do you really want others to think that you might be the problem? Are you open to your friends bringing you their “observations”? You might be off the hook for talking to them about our marriage in the first place (since I can say I gave you permission), but are you prepared to lose your status as a Care Group Leaders Wife? Because you know, Dear, in SGM, if you aren’t a Care Group Leaders Wife, or a Pastor’s Wife, you’re just a Stay-At-Home-Mom. Despite what you read on the Girltalk Blog, unless you also have an SGM-sanctioned CAREER as a Care Group Leader’s Wife or a Pastor’s Wife, you aren’t regarded, so it’s up to you!”

*when I say “normal” I mean in terms of discussing problems in an effort to figure them out, which helps to prevent unhealthy pressure and frustration from building up – which it does – even in the BEST of marriages.  The scripture warns against women and men talking about other people when it doesn’t involve their own lives. If you are in a marriage, involved in a church, or you’re having problems with some area of your life, you shouldn’t feel like you should get permission to talk about those things. I realize that you were referring to a specific area that you gave your wife “permission” to talk to others about, but even that comes across as more of a threat than anything. It goes to show how SGM’ers think of it as tattle-telling or something! Ridiculous.

Love yous guys!

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I hear ya!  Isn’t nice to have flavor in our lives, now?  I just love it!

Jim,

I think we all are learning from each other on this blog to be patient and listen well to others who we might disagree with.  We are learning diplomacy, as well as how to think through things to find the Lord’s mind on a matter.

I get what you mean about avoiding the over-doing of charasmania (new word!). I don’t think I was ever “hyper” charismatic.  I am filled with the Holy Spirit, and thus experience the gift of discernment and sometimes prophecy, among others.  I can pray in tongues, but do not.  I need more understanding of it, in order to use it for God’s purpose.  I cannot at this time worship in a cooperate setting because of bad memories of not worshipping in “spirit and in truth” (being forced to clap, dance, etc. by leadership).  The Lord speaks to me in ways that often come from the silence. I am careful not to be led too often by emotion, but to think like Christ as much as I can.  My husband, on the other hand, will blast music in his office, and often times be overcome by weeping in the spirit.  He goes out to different churches in the area just for worship cooperately, then returns home before the teaching( (having been so over-taught in SGM).  That is his way, his journey.  We are both growing in the grace of God.  We know there is more coming our way, so we wait patiently on the Lord.

Hope I’m not babbling.  I think I’m trying to say that this blog has opened up the doors for many of us to experience each other’s thoughts and ideas, and to be open without being critical.  We are changing.  We see new things.  We keep the good and throw out the bad.  This group is functioning (in cyberspace) like the body of Christ.  We encourage, exhort, edify, sometimes correct.  We pray for each other with sincere love.  I never experienced this sort of Body-life in SGM, not sincerely, except maybe in the early years. 

Though I understand you might think, “this blog isn’t a church”, we individuals ARE the church.  We are different parts of the body, learning to function together.  Maybe it shouldn’t be enough. I just know that I’m growing, I’m edified, and inspired by the people who post here.  Isn’t that how the church should function?  Maybe I will find the courage to step out when the new wine skin shows itself, simply because I was allowed to step out here on the blog.  Again, I have to thank you and Carole for making this possible.  You really don’t know how much you are helping others.  So I’ll keep reminding you!  You both are slow to take any credit for the work you are doing. I promise there won’t be any standing ovation or gift certificates. Just a genuine respect for a job well done. Hugs!

But when I left SGM, my greatest difficulty was with Calvinist theology. Because of the actions of SGMers and lessons from the pulpit and Care Group, I believed God had predestined me to give up on my dreams, settle for a lowly subservient life, and seek out secret sin all day long. The idea that that was what he demanded of me or that was my destiny made me so sad and depressed. I supposed He didn’t want to fellowship with me, to walk with me in the cool of the garden. That was reserved for the Adams of the world, not the Eves. My job was to serve my man and lead a quiet life. BORING! So I rebounded against ole Cal and his ideas for a VERY long time. I think I’m fairly balanced now, but I still can’t attend a reformed church.

The conversation will go were it will-no problem with sidetracking or whatever…

Early on, watching commenters state beliefs that I disagree with was a challenge, because of the way I’m wired (IOW, I tend to think I’m right ). It’s been a good experience watching this very diverse group interact. I’m still a stick in the mud to the point that I need to say what I believe on the “about” page, and to state the obvious-that everyone here speaks for themselves-but it’s been been for me to remind myself what is essential, and what is secondary.

One great thing about being out here in what RT would call “normal land” is that I now have friends who are cessationist, hypercharismatic, egalitarian, anti-courtship, and the many other flavors in God’s family.

I probably sruggle with hypercharismatics the most, because I was one. Kinda like lighting up a cigarette around an ex smoker…

That was verrrrry interesting reading.  Written in 1848, it is alarming in a sense that the requests for acknowledgement by our government of women as persons with rights was met, eventually, yet not in the church, for the most part, especially SGM.  How would Elizabeth Stanton feel about that, I wonder?  I pasted these two quotes below as words of interest:

“He has endeavored, in every way that he could, to destroy her confidence in her own powers, to lessen her self-respect, and to make her willing to lead a dependent and abject life.”

“He has usurped the prerogative of Jehovah himself, claiming it as his right to assign for her a sphere of action, when that belongs to her conscience and to her God.”

We women who are now experiencing or have experienced these very same injustices in the 21st century that were written by a 19th century woman, should be appalled.  Our very own government is no longer allowed to treat women in the way that the SGM machine (indeed, many churches) has been allowed to do to its own female members.  The sad thing is that, while a part of the system, I was not only (I believed) content with my lot, I did not understand how my spirit protested at the injustice I saw.  How many of us ignored the inward cry that THIS IS WRONG, because leaders told us it was right?

But, many men were also treated in such a fashion.  Not given the opportunity to pray for God’s mind on church direction, talents and gifts ignored, taught to follow the leader, men who wimped out or became drivers of their families…  Just because one (whether man or woman) becomes a member of a church does not mean that he/she signs away their God given abilities to think for themselves, and to be individuals.  As my husband told me, RUN from any church that requires complete, subserviant obedience to its leaders.  We should learn from history.

Sorry, Jim and Carole, if I’ve sidetracked the conversation.  Guess I’m still pondering in my own mind all the reasons that led to my own “enslavement” in the church.  I have to add (thanks again, Acme) that the remarks in Acme’s link about women being “civilly dead” made me chuckle.  My husband would have a good guffaw over that one.  Though he definitely knows how to lead our family, he sees me as equally valuable, and my thoughts on issues definitely needed.  Besides the Lord, My husband is the reason I survived my SGM experience! 

I also want to add a big thanks to you, Jim, for giving women the same avenue to post on your blog as the men.  Though you might not always agree with our thoughts, you have only treated us with respect and kindness.  To be able to not only freely express our opinions, but to minister to others who come here, is an incredible experience for those of us who went many years thinking ourselves of no value to the Lord or His church.  How wrong we were!  Okay, I will cease my chirping and hand over the mic…

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall.....falls.html

Huh…I’m glad that the law now protects women from beatings, too.   It’s amazing that our civil laws give us so much freedom, yet we allow churches to steal it away from us!  I as a woman can make a statement with my vote in the U.S., but have no say in the direction my church goes in, nor am I allowed to have the privilege of praying for God’s mind on the important issues in a church body.  Heck, most of the time we didn’t KNOW what direction the church was taking until we were TOLD by the leadership.  We were signed up to follow whether we liked it or not.  There simply has to be a balance when it comes to leadership and congregational oversight.

I am not a feminist, but I do appreciate what the early women’s sufferage movement brought to the kitchen table of womanhood.  It is too bad that we seem to loose a lot of that respect and freedom upon entering the church building.   I still scratch my birdbrain over that one.

I’ve been good.  Hope you and yours are well, too!