I must have missed the Episcopal thing.  For a church leader to say she does not find the atonement “compelling”…well, she is sadly and seriously misled, being a wolf instead of a sheep, I think.

I do believe we should defend the weak when they cannot defend themselves.  For us to keep quiet about injustice or error in an organization fro which we have had personal experience is an impossible task, when there are such venues like the blogs we post on to describe our stories.  How can we keep quiet while others suffer in silence?

When you say you (or “we”) are being raked over the coals time and again, do you mean the criticism that comes our way because we speak up about the injustice and error?  If that is what you mean, we are following in revered Footsteps.  Jesus, too, was “raked over the coals” for speaking against the Pharisees, to the point of dying on the cross.  If He’d kept quiet about their hypocrisy, maybe they would have left Him alone.  So,  I say that as long as your heart is to glorify God and defend the weak, you have no reason to back down from your views on speaking out when you see error.

That’s my two cents worth of birdseed type wisdom from a fellow believer who also wants to see the Lord glorified in His people!

This woman, Katherine Ragsdale, has been placed in charge of an Episcopal seminary. What I commented on was this statement she made Easter 2002: “The suffering and death of Jesus, according to the theory of the Atonement, pays for our sins and buys our salvation. It’s an interesting theory, but not one that I find compelling.”

I made a comment about that statement and how damaging it is to people of faith when their leaders don’t even claim to believe in the atonement and was immediately lashed out at by someone for being self-righteous and a hater. At what point do we cease to be lovers of God and defenders of the Gospel and become instead ferocious, self-righteous haters? Are we not called to point out errors in doctrine and keep the blind from leading the blind straight into a ditch? Yes, we’re called to love one another, but do we let this type of error go on? I was floored that this person heaved such accusations at me, and it reminded me of some of the comments we’ve read from SGM defenders on this blog. I am by no means saying that they would ever be so blasphemous as to throw out the atonement and defend abortion. On these issues, I’m sure we all agree — SGM folks and non SGM folks alike. What I’m saying is that while my heart is always for healing and restoration, that doesn’t mean I or any of us should sit idly by and watch people say that the very creed (Nicene for the Episcopalians, right?) they have vowed to defend and adhere to is nonsense. How could we NOT comment on such a thing? And for that matter, how can we not speak out about the abuses we’ve experienced or seen in SGM? We are actually speaking out because we care about the church, not because we don’t. And we don’t want to bring down SGM. We want to see truth triumph. How can we do that without it appearing to them that we’re arrogant, hatred-spewing, self-righteous egotists? I know that’s what they think of us, and I don’t like it. I want to see God glorified. THAT, and nothing else, is what drives me. But somehow that is not coming through. Can anyone speak to that? Is it because what I’m saying involves criticizing a priest or church leader that I (we) am/are being raked over the coals time and again?

I haven’t escaped unscathed, in the least, in my open criticism of SGM.  No kevlar here; in fact, the chinks in my armor are well known.

~John

So…how do they–pastor and congregants–impact SGM?  And how do they protect against SGM coming in to replace their pastor with someone more gifted in pastoral gifts, (what the heck does that even mean?), if he ever is seen as not toeing the SGM line?

Light bulb!!!!!!!!

Since one of the marks of an elder in the Book is that he is able to teach….has SGM’s highly trained leaders understood that to mean that “only elders CAN teach?”

The verse clearly means that if a man is to be appointed as elder, he needs to be able to teach, i.e., he needs to have a command of scriptures and the ability to give instruction to the people.

It doesn’t mean that only ‘elders’ can step into the pulpit.

This then would explain, possibly, why only pastors are elders, and that, unlike New Testatment churches, the church is not allowed to ‘choose from among them’ lay elders?!?!

This would ulitmately mean that ANY teaching done in SGM churches comes directly from those inculcated with PC doctrines and training.

Aha.  Hmm.

Very enlightening words you have shared above, my friend!  Lots to think about…

This is my hope and prayer, too, Defended!  For SGM, for myself, for all of us!

I must say, it is encouraging to hear that this is not commonplace and that it might possibly indicate the Holy Spirit’s work.

I do know that at the last family meeting, when Rich was asked a question towards the end, it appeared that the other pastors were not pleased with the question or Rich’s answer (which wasn’t an accurate.)  This makes me a little concerned that they aren’t all on board. 

If Rich is serious about what he confessed to, I pray that he has the ability to lead the other pastors and convince the higher-ups that these changes DO need to take place.   I pray that he is brave enough to challenge the SGM status-quo (and keep his job).   I pray that the people here keep their eyes and ears open and hold our pastors accountable to make the changes that they promised to do.  (Making such a 180 degree shift will most certainly not be easy.)  Many here are worried that so many people are leaving the church.  I pray they keep asking questions and don’t follow the lead of messages like the one in Bradenton and blindly trust.

DEFENDED: No one else has made any confessions and according to RR, he is the only one at fault. 

One of the reason stated for leaving was, “only pastors do teach.” To address this deficit, several months ago the PT allowed a care group leader to preach from the pulpit. The title of his sermon was “Surviving in Babylon.”  How appropriate for our day and age. He received an enthusiastic standing ovation from the congregation, but perhaps not as enthusiastic from the PT.  

In the sermon this layman artfully addressed some of the church’s issues like morbid introspection. It took almost a month before the message was posted to the churches website. It only remained posted a few weeks before the church officials pulled all the messages older than March 30th.  Hmmm.

There are a number of reasons for our skepticism.
 
Recently, from “within the beltway” of SGC Gilbert, a comment slipped that he, the above mentioned care group leader, will never be invited back into the pulpit. 

Apparently there has been an announcement that a gentleman will be having a study for the singles.  But it was also announced that no one needed to worry about preparing, or reading or studying for this event.  All you need to do is show up.  To us this does not seem to be a Bible study – it is a not encouraging people to get in and study the bible, but simply to come unprepared to listen to teaching that we assume has been vetted by the Pastors. So for a congregation of 700 there is one bible study.  And still, any bible study starting up must have pastoral approval, direction and coaching. They can’t risk views beyond their narrow focus.

Dangerous ground! It seems this was the final insult leading to leaving of the couple in January. In their letter they stated, “We were strongly encouraged to stop leading a non-competing Bible study with friends and family in our home this past fall.  We had been doing a book study on Martyn Lloyd Jones’
Romans 6: The New Man, which is sold in the SGC bookstore.” Obviously a dangerous couple and book!

On a second reading of the departing couple’s letter mentioned above and of the numerous postings on SGM Refuge and Survivors, there is an over arching issue of CONTROL.  The censuses at the Abbey is the PT just doesn’t perceive their heavy hand. Such is the nature of deception. So with their words they say one thing but by their actions, laity disdain lives on.

So what will be the signs of real change? It will be characterized by a:

·    PT that assumes the role of cheerleaders not authoritarians.

·    PT that trumpets an environment of trust and empowerment where permission is not requested but assumed.

·    PT that regularly demonstrates an exuberant expectation of good of the many spontaneous godly exploits of their congregation.

·    PT that measures success by the joy, enthusiasm and accomplishments of the ministries arising from their congregation.

·    PT that isn’t suspicious of members of the congregation with greater and different gifting than theirs. Those in the congregation with greater teaching and prophetic gifting will routinely get pulpit exposure.

·    and finally, the weekly PT damage control meetings will be replaced by praise and testimonial meetings. PT members that don’t get it and can’t make the paradigm shift will be let go and if necessary ties to the mothership will be broken.
 
While the faith of those afar is commendable, those of us who are writing from Gilbert are dubious.  So until there are visible signs of a major shift away from CONTROL please don’t drink the water. It could be hazardous to your health.

Having been thru what we have experienced, with Steve in the room, this AZ meeting is a 180* change from what he said to us and what reforms he said Defender and I needed if we wanted to stay with SGM.  But I may have to go and listen to the April msg. to hear it for myself and look for that hope that you have.

Having been in that hotel room with Steve presiding over a 2-day, pre-judged “trial” of Defender and myself and being told (by Steve) we were “too dependent on the Holy Spirit” for the conviction of sin, well, this could be a point of praise.  Sadly, it is also diametrically different from what was preached in Florida so once again I wonder about accountability, and real transparency from one leader, one congregation to another.

Nevertheless my prayer, my hope for SGM and ALL of God’s people is that we would glorify the Lord here on earth.

(So glad to have “found” you here on Refuge, PD and PK!)

My question:  Does this seem like the young sr. pastor’s plan is to really change things?  Not to me.  It still sounds like the typical control, control, control…..What does freedom in the Spirit look like????

My guess is that this young sr. pastor was told exactly what to say from Steve and the gang and he was/is told exactly what he can do.  I remember what Gene Emerson told the 3 couples – the pastors in Chesapeake just needed to learn a different way.  Their way is tell the people exactly what they want to hear but as soon as they walk out of the room, business is back to usual.

I can’t help but wonder with tithes down, people leaving these churches, etc. if they are becoming desperate to convince people that they are changing.  IF CJ. STeve and others are serious about repentance and change, they would be the ones repenting – publically.  They would be the ones changing SGM polity and doctrine.  If they really saw their sin, they would be QUICK to repent, QUICK to announce change – from the TOP.

“Come Holy Spirit, continue to do Your work in these men’s hearts.” 

Let it be a genuine work; let there be fruit…   

Lotza, Lotza, Lotza…fruit!
*
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!

Praise God! 

In a little, ;~)

Sopy

There is a real misunderstanding of what repentance is in this group, though they are trying hard to express their heart for the Lord and for the people.   It reminds me of that passage, ”they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.”

SURELY the Apostle-turned-regional manager isn’t making any confessions, is he?

It’s fascinating to me that there are so many pseudo-confessions of sinfulness yet I have no knowledge of ANY corporate, dedicated gatherings of any true repentance concerning the self-focus, self-examination that goes on in every SGM congregation I’ve been in, and every Celebration I’ve attended. And if we’re busy doing these introspective sin examinations, how can we possibly “Fix our eyes on Jesus” as the Scriptures exhort?

thanks in advance, for your clarity and explanation,
Defended

The Gilbert Pastor is confessing but is he repenting?

1.        He confessed that there has been an intentional over emphasis on morbid introspection of sin.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE?  If so, how?  Will they instruct cg leaders to run care groups differently?  What will they put in place of this focus on sin?

2.       He confessed a lack of sufficient focus on the Word of God.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE?  He assured the congregation that the care groups will NOT become Bible Studies.  So will there be bible studies?  Will the pastors encourage bible studies taught by non pastors?  Will they “allow” bible studies to be taught by non pastors?  What will be the criteria to be able to lead a bible study?  We know of one fine gentleman who was in his fifites, who had walked with the Lord for over 30 years, who had taught not only bible studies, but from the pulpit (non SGM) and in a local bible college, who had been an elder at the other church he attended, and had attended SGM for over 10 years, and who was told by a pastor at SGM that they needed to make sure he understood the Gospel before he had a bible study in his own home.  

3.       He confessed a Nicolaitan division of pastors and church members.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE?   If so, HOW?  Will there be lay elders?  How will the laity be able to impact the direction of the church?

4.       He confessed responding to lay members’ observations by turning the focus to their personal sins.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE?   How will they be implementing the change? These kind of habits die hard.   And WC asks a great question – how will we know it is changing?

Heartfelt confession is not enough.  We need CHANGE!

Thanks for the post Carole.  So much to ponder.