I have been thinking a lot lately about repentance, forgiveness, restoration and reconciliation. After all, these are issues that many of us who have experienced life in SGM churches (and all that entails) and have left those same churches due to less than ideal circumstances, have thought about, have hoped would happen with the “players” in our particular situations.
Is this such a difficult task? Unfortunately, it seems that it is. For many of us, all we want, all we are asking for, is to make those things that were wrong in our SGM church, the situations that have affected us negatively, the actions that were taken against us in such a hurtful, ungodly way, to be made right.
To be fair, I have heard of a few situations involving SGM leaders and pastors asking for forgiveness for the horrible actions (or non-action, in some cases) they had imposed on their unsuspecting and loyal sheep. While this is admirable, and a step in the right direction, it’s still a shame that repentance had to come years after their original “gaffe”. But I have to give props where they are due… confessing their sin and asking forgiveness is a good move no matter how long it’s been.
One thing I’ve been wondering is, if all that is needed to make things right between those who have been sinned against and the ones who have done the sinning is simply confession of that sin (or the many sins, in some cases), true sorrow and real forgiveness, then what’s the problem? Why, as Christians, as brothers and sisters in the Lord, as part of the body of Christ, isn’t this done? Why would anyone, whose heart is soft towards the Lord, who allows himself to be convicted of sin, not want to RUN to those they have wronged and make things right?
But, yet, this is what we have seen and experienced over and over again with those leaders in SGM who have hurt us and wronged us, who have sinned against us, and who, in many situations, have created a “scorched earth” policy, destroying our reputations as the final kick out of the door. Are their hearts that hard towards God and His people? Do they not have the ability or the softness of hearts to be convicted by the Holy Spirit and heed that conviction quickly, making every effort (in a timely manner) to repent of their sin, their actions, that have affected many?
I don’t have the answers. I certainly can’t judge these men’s hearts. But I do know One Who can and does. I don’t know about the rest of you, but this frightens me for these men. To be able to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit is a very scary place to find yourself.
Conviction of sin brings great sorrow. How can we not be broken when our sins are revealed to us? To have sinned against a holy God, to have sinned against His people… well, that is enough to bring even the strongest to our knees, to bring sorrow and tears, that is the impetus that causes repentance, it causes us to quickly and surely seek and ask for forgiveness from God and from those we have sinned against. Forgiveness is balm to our hearts and to our very souls. Who can resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit? And, if we can resist, for how long? And why would we resist? The repercussions are far more vast and costly in resistance. When we resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit, our hearts harden, bit by bit.
And then there is active repentance, restoration and reconciliation. In many of our situations with SGM leaders, there have been issues of gossip, slander, lies, etc. against us. Is it reasonable to expect those wrong beliefs that people have about us because of the “scorched earth” policy to be made right? Should sorrowful conviction and forgiveness include the desire to correct wrong views because of wrong information that leaders shared?
It just seems weird to me that these most basic Christian principles can be ignored by SGM leaders. All it would take in most of our situations, is for SGM leaders to humble themselves and just make things right. We are not asking for blood, we’re not asking for their heads on a silver platter. No. We are asking for true humility, for true conviction of sin and repentance, for true reconciliation and restoration. Is that wrong? Are those expectations unrealistic? Are we asking too much? I believe the Word of God is very clear on these issues. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the right and the biblical thing to do.
Why do SGM church leaders/pastors have the idea that they do not have to walk out basic Christian principles, such as repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation? When does becoming an SGM pastor exonerate you from walking as Jesus did, mimicking His life on this earth, striving to become more like Him, the Savior of the world?… the One Who lowered Himself to come to this earth as a mere Man, and while He was here, He walked, He talked, He taught, He washed feet, He had great compassion and love… He was the Son of God and He died for us, mere lowly man. His purpose here was to bring repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation.
He didn’t set Himself up in a beautiful temple, expecting us, who needed Him so desperately, to come to Him. He went out to them, and dirtied Himself with the sinners, the lost. He didn’t sit on a throne of judgment, deciding whether the men and women who stood before Him were worthy (and looked the part) of being salvaged and brought back into the fold. He loved and accepted everyone who came to Him. He didn’t remove Himself from the lives of sinners, He didn’t remove Himself from the lives of His disciples. He was leading the way, sometimes rebuking His disciples when they questioned what He was doing, when they didn’t understand why the Son of God was lowering Himself in such a manner. And He certainly didn’t turn anyone away who was truly seeking Him.
So when did this model change in SGM? Do they think they have a better plan than Jesus had? Do they think His ways are outdated? Do they think they have arrived at some greater plane than the rest of us, and therefore don’t have to adhere to the same Christian principles as the lowly sheep, and don’t have to walk and talk and live as Jesus taught?
Again, I don’t know their hearts, but I can question what I see, what I’ve experienced, what are very obvious, common threads that weave the SGM organization together.
While I do know that there are those pastors and leaders in SGM that are “different”, that do have a heart for God’s people, and are committed to His Word and walking it out in their lives, it seems that they are very few and far between in the SGM system. This is a very sad commentary on Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I will continue to pray for SGM, for it’s leaders, for it’s members. I will pray for God to work in their hearts and in their lives. I will pray for their hearts to be softened, not only to the Holy Spirit, but to the sheep they pastor, as under-shepherds. I will pray for humble hearts, for a love for the sheep. I will pray for them to return to the model that Jesus set before all of us. I will pray for their hearts to be pricked, that they would want to do what’s right in the eyes of God and His people… seek out those they have wounded and hurt through their “business model of doing church”, and repent, to them and to God, ask forgiveness of them and God, and seek reconciliation and restoration, with them and God.
And I would hope that in this process, they would return to their first Love, recognizing the error of their ways, and change those ways… for their own good, as believers, for the good of the members of SGM churches, for the good of Sovereign Grace Ministries, and ultimately and most importantly, for His glory.
April 18th, 2009 at 9:49 am
A beautiful post. Thank you.
Why did Peter need to be rebuked by Paul for giving in to fear of man- again- and going along with the Judaizers? Why did Germany, a reasonably civilized nation, go with Hitler’s agenda? Why did King David do what he did?
We are terribly depraved people. Mob psychology is amazing ( read Extraodinary Delusions and the Madness of Crowds). Most normal folks with a conscience CANNOT grasp subtle psychopathy and how part of the population lives devoid of empathy and guilt ( read The Sociopath Next Door). How do cults get so powerful? Ever read early Mormon history? Why did the Israelites cross the red sea, see the 10 plagues, and then make a golden calf?
None of this should surprise us.
One answer specific to SGM is that they value blind loyalty to leaders perhaps above all other virtues. So certain types of people end up on top and expect the same from those under.
Keep your focus on the Lord and His word. Too much of a focus on wrongdoers can be harmful, even if you are right. Send some money to a broke missionary today working with overseas street kids or orphans. Do your little part to walk in compassion and kindness to the least of these. America is being judged and things are getting bad. SGM will be purified, or people will leave in droves. God WILL take care of it all.
Thanks for caring, brother.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:15 am
“…Broken Arrow, Broken Arrow! “
The salvation of the righteous comes from You, LORD;
You are our stronghold in times of trouble.
LORD help us and deliver us!
Delivers us from the wicked slave masters and all those who would do your house harm and saves us,
We take refuge in You!
–You that fear the LORD, praise Him; all of you that are born of God, glorify Him; and fear Him, all those of Jesus’ house. For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has He hid his face from us; but when we will cry out to Him,
He will hear!
My praise is of Thee in this great congregation: I will praise Thee before them that fear you.
Thank You Lord, that when we will cry out to You…
You will hear!
I cry out to you, Jesus!
Bring your help!
Bring yourself.
Bring all of Heaven!
I pray thee, Lord!
Amen!
April 18th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Do they think they have a better plan than Jesus had? Do they think His ways are outdated? Do they think they have arrived at some greater plane than the rest of us, and therefore don’t have to adhere to the same Christian principles as the lowly sheep, and don’t have to walk and talk and live as Jesus taught?
Yup. I think so. That is why they reject all other churches, disdain church history/creeds/hymns/catechisms, that is why they don’t read biographies about saints through the ages, or take part in community wide faith events.
They truly do feel like they are a new ‘MOVEMENT,’ not a new denomination.
SGM–you are not a movement. You are not a family of churches. You are just a little denomination intent on lifting yourself up by exalting your pope, cardinals, bishops and priests, to the detriment of your people.
Gag me.
Luke 17: Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves.
”If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Excellent, excellent post, my sister.
April 18th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Carole,
Wonderful post and I am praying that with you sister.
Love your heart for the church.
April 18th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Carole,
I hear your heart on the matter. Thanks for sharing it with us all.
I don’t think SGM leaders believe they have done wrong. Isn’t that the whole problem? WE are the sinners, in their eyes.
I think there is too much leaven in this oragnization for it to be saved. I do believe that the Lord can open anyone’s eyes. He opened mine. He opened yours and Jim’s. However, as a group, the error in SGM has grown too large to purge. It makes me very sad to say this. It is time for leaders in the church who have claimed ownership over the Body of Christ to step aside. It is time for God’s people to walk in their freedom. That does not mean loss of leadership, only a death to the idea that any man can own another. Let the true leaders step up, the ones who truly love God’s people, who will lay their lives down for them, as Jesus did, if called to. These men I will follow.
April 18th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I’m really not even talking about whether SGM can or will reform. My thoughts as I was writing this post were more along the lines of what all of our responsibilities as members of the body of Christ are… and repentance, forgiveness, and reconciliation are foundations of our faith.
When did the job of “SGM pastor” surpass the job of “Christian”?… meaning, we are ALL Christians, and should therefore mimic and follow Jesus Christ in all of our actions, all of our deeds, in every aspect of our very lives.
When (and where!) did SGM leaders get the impression that they don’t have to walk to the “ordinary” believer’s Drummer (the Son of God), but walk and follow their own drummer?
I fear for anyone who calls themself a Christian, and feels like they are called to lead (pastor) other Christians, but don’t feel the need to BE a Christian in this most basic, fundamental way.
Scary stuff!
April 18th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Carole:
I agree with you 100%, that aside from any type of reform that takes place, the model of repentance needs to be followed through. No, it isn’t asking for blood (that part’s been covered, thankfully) to ask men to visibly walk out repentance. In many ways, it’s the only model for reformation.
Good thoughts.
~John
April 18th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
Hi John!
Good to see you… you are missed, my friend!
April 18th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
I don’t think I was talking about “reform”. I was talking about integrity. If a man shows a predisposition to lie, he should be disqualified from leadership. The same with a man who slanders, or puts himself before those he is suppose to love and care for. Leaders in SGM have been fired for less transgressions than the ones we have experienced, or are hearing of.
I still think that the answer to the questions you pose is that SGM leadership, for the most part, do not believe they have wronged those we see as having been wounded by their authoritarian ways. If they see no sin, there will be no repentance. If there is no conviction, maybe some of these men are indeed walking apart from the Holy Spirit. Isn’t it He who gives us the ability to see our sin and repent?
I have been feeling a bit blue over the whole church thing. It seems that there are church leaders in place who do not follow God’s heart, or perhaps don’t even know Him for real. In our personal lives, we have to overcome the stigma that Christianity bears just to share Jesus with someone. We are looked upon as being hypocrites by the world. Then, when we also see hypocrisy in leadership, well…who can we trust? How can we not become disillusioned?
I say again, let those kinds of leaders step aside. Let men and women of integrity, full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit, begin to lead the way for those who are younger in the Lord.
Carole, you and Jim began this blog to bring the truth to the church at large as a final step in resolving the wrongs you saw in your SGM church. You have given insight and encouragement to many who have suffered from similar abuses. I’m sorry if the resolutions you hoped for have not come about. In your effort to reveal truth, you have helped many reading here have their own resolution over their struggles with SGM leadership. I think I can speak for many here when I say thank you, Jim and Carole for all the effort involved in keeping the blog running, and for all the care you give others. It has not been wasted!
April 18th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
P.S. John, hope you are doing well!
April 18th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Carole,
Thank you for a thoughtful and beautifully expressive post. I am praying to this end as well for all pastors and all sheep.
5yearsinpdi said,
Keep your focus on the Lord and His word. Too much of a focus on wrongdoers can be harmful, even if you are right.
Amen. I pray all involved will be more concerned with being right with God more than just being right.
P.D.
April 18th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
Hi PD! I was so glad to see your gravatar pop up on my computer screen!
I hope you are all doing well… It’s been a bit hectic here, but I will be in touch soon, my friend!
April 18th, 2009 at 11:34 pm
Hey Carole,
Yes, we know Hectic (and his sister Frantic!). But we are doing well. GOOD news from John’s surgeon this week: said his x-rays looked “spectacular.” We are praising God for this & other many blessings. I’ll look forward to hearing from you!
)
P.D.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:20 am
Excellent post, Carole. Thanks for “keeping the main thing” (Christlikeness) “the main thing.”
April 19th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Canary,
While I agree with you that it seems that most SGM leaders/pastors don’t THINK they have sinned against the sheep, the fact remains that they have, indeed, sinned against and caused great hurt and pain to many. And, as fellow believers, the Holy Spirit convicts us all, whether we want Him to or not. :-)
My question is HOW they can continue down this erroneous path and not heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit?!! I don’t believe that these men aren’t believers, although, as in any Christian “system”, I’m sure there are a few who are not Christians. So, believing most are brothers in the Lord, I have to believe that the Holy Spirit has convicted their hearts, shown them their wrong views, and they have disregarded that conviction.
That is what scares me for them.
And, as most of us only want to see true humility, and an honest apology for what they have done, they have refused to even acknowledge any wrongdoing.
The Holy Spirit’s conviction of sin in our hearts and in our lives supersedes our own thoughts and actions… He swept into my life and into my heart when I didn’t even know Who He was, much less know that I was in desperate need of Him. He trumped all of my own thoughts, all of my own reasoning. He convicted me of my sin, showed me that I was dead without Him. I could not withstand His drawing me to Himself. And throughout my life as His, He has kindly and lovingly shown me my sin… and it has brought me much sorrow to know that I have sinned against my God and His people. Repentance is irresistible for those who know Him… unless we harden our hearts against Him.
Which brings me full circle… right back to my question… believing that SGM leaders are believers, HOW can these pastors/leaders harden themselves against the Holy Spirit’s conviction, and WHY would they want to? WHEN does the “job” as pastor/leader (meaning their own “version” of that job description… :-/) come before our “jobs” as Christians?
Like I said in the post, this is a very sad commentary, indeed, on the state of Sovereign Grace Ministries…
April 19th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
RT… spot on, my friend!!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
PD, praising God along with you!! We are so thankful for the good report!!
April 19th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
5 Years, Sopwith, Happymom, Keepinstep…
Thank you all for your encouragement!
April 19th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Canary Said-
Carole, you and Jim began this blog to bring the truth to the church at large as a final step in resolving the wrongs you saw in your SGM church. You have given insight and encouragement to many who have suffered from similar abuses. I’m sorry if the resolutions you hoped for have not come about. In your effort to reveal truth, you have helped many reading here have their own resolution over their struggles with SGM leadership. I think I can speak for many here when I say thank you, Jim and Carole for all the effort involved in keeping the blog running, and for all the care you give others. It has not been wasted!
Canary, thank you for your kind words. You’ve been a good friend from the beginning.
Just for those who are recent readers, I want to clarify.
This blog started with 3 clearly stated goals, in no particular order.
To create a safe place for those hurt by SGM. To call a friend in SGM to repentance by “telling it to the church” after exhausting all other options. To point out error with SGM and publicly call them to reform.
I met with the friend referenced above days before we launched, and had that meeting gone well I still would have started this blog. It’s never been about my friend and I. I started with our story so people would know who we are, and to lead the way for those who wanted to post their own sgm story. I obviously wish our story had a different ending, but the ending we posted at the time was only relevant when we launched. In other words, “it ain’t over till it’s over”.
I haven’t tried to hide my feelings regarding reform within SGM. “All things are possible with God” aside, as He’s under no obligation to answer my prayers in the affirmative, or to correct error within a denomination. We just have to look around to see that He allows great error to continue in many denominations.
I personally flip flop on a regular basis regarding reform within sgm. One week I’m hopeful, the next week I’m hopeless. To be honest, sgm doesn’t take up alot of space in my head these days, so take the terms above with a grain of salt.
While we haven’t seen reform, we have seen change. It’s unfortunate that some pastors are more gentle with the sheep because they don’t want to be exposed on the blogs, but I’m happy that some leaders in sgm are more “careful” these days.
Back to Carole’s post, my opinion is that the PC changes men. CJ’s odd fixation on leadership, which in sgm is an extra biblical view, is drummed into these men. The “clergy/laity” chasm is so wide that it seems that these men believe they live by a different set of standards.
I echo Carole’s thoughts that this is simple stuff. Gentlemen, you are Christians first.
April 19th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Carole,
Cornucopian Blessings! –An inexhaustible store of God’s Wonderful Favor to you!
*
Thank You! It is an honor to be here! Thank you for your words.
Thank you for your prayers. Thank you for your kindness.
Thank you for the “love” you have clearly demonstrated for the body of believers known as Sovereign Grace Miniseries.
Thank you for making a difference. It means a lot to all of here in this congregation of believers “at large”.
As for me and my house… we will follow Jesus!
I weep, WEEP! for the whole leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Jesus weeps, WEEPS!, for the whole leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
I pray God’s mercy before it is too late.
I fear it is too late already.
The army of believers that are seeking God and praying and crying out to Jesus is growing. It is now including those believers who have never been in the confines of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
…I know, because I asked Jesus to bring His “other” kids in to this battle.
They are coming, they are here!
***
Praise You Jesus!
I CRY OUT TO YOU!, Jesus!
Hear my cry, O’ LORD!
*
In the twinkling of an eye… ;~)
Jesus’ Sopy
April 19th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
Carole,
I absolutely agree with all you are saying. I can hear in your words the grief these questions cause you. You said:
Which brings me full circle… right back to my question… believing that SGM leaders are believers, HOW can these pastors/leaders harden themselves against the Holy Spirit’s conviction, and WHY would they want to? WHEN does the “job” as pastor/leader (meaning their own “version” of that job description… :-/) come before our “jobs” as Christians?
I believe the Holy Spirit convicts us of wrong thinking or doing, like you do. I SAW the leadership in my former church reject what the Holy Spirit was doing. It was in 1996-97, I think. People were being refreshed, convicted, invited into a very holy place, yet men chose to stop the whole move of God. THEY decided they would not allow us to go that direction (it was all about control, I believe). It was a conscious decision on their part. Then began the forced confessing of sins at CG, and the situation proceeded downhill from there.
My point is, I saw men refuse to welcome the Holy Spirit as He tried to move in our midst. There was no weirdness, no strangeness, just sweet fellowship. My husband, myself, and my oldest son were forever changed by the sweet touch of God, as were others. Leadershop stopped it, anyway (our cg leader told us this). So, perhaps some of the leadership also prevents the Holy Ghost from moving in their personal lives. This could explain absence of conviction.
Just my thoughts. It is terribly wrong. They have hurt/misled many people. It is right to fear for the SGM pastors/leaders if they have truly dismissed the Holy Spirit and His sweet voice. Unfortunately, and as Jim says, just because we see it, doesn’t mean God has to change these men. Church history underscores this.
Wing-cuddles from a very sympathetic canary…
April 19th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Back to Carole’s post, my opinion is that the PC changes men. CJ’s odd fixation on leadership, which in sgm is an extra biblical view, is drummed into these men. The “clergy/laity” chasm is so wide that it seems that these men believe they live by a different set of standards.
Jim, you can say that again!
April 19th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Canary,
I guess I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that SGM pastors/leaders don’t feel the need to adhere to foundational Christian principles. You would think that, as a Christian believer/pastor/leader, you would be more apt to follow these most basic of beliefs… right?!?!?!
Just mind boggling… (and thanks for the “wing cuddles”!!)
Where is that “scratching my head” icon when I need it?
April 19th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Sopy…
Blessings to you!
April 21st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
HOWDY!
Change for the best…
Well now, I hear the Senior Pastor over in Gilbert is crying a river, again. Meanwhile, the folks who haven’t left the church are wondering, has this man forgotten to take his meds? And those who think they know somethin’ are smilin’ at the wonderful humility of the man. Really? Ah. Really?
Okaaaaaay.
Meanwhile, the wives who are abused and the kids who are mixed up are wondering, how long oh, Lord will this continue.
Whatcha gonna do with a hurtin’ church? Where are the professionals to help the families? How can the wives step in and ask for help? What’s the plan? Oh, yeah, send the abusing leader elsewhere, to lead another group and leave Shank pullin’ the strings.
This is a systemic problem.
Lives of many are affected and those sold out keep trying to “help” those who have left to become healthy servants of Christ for His glory.
So, what is the plan?…God knows.
Let His will be done.
See ya!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Carole, your post left me breathless as I felt like I was reading my own passion for God’s glory and honor in the church!
you said
My question is HOW they can continue down this erroneous path and not heed the conviction of the Holy Spirit?!! ……..
That is what scares me for them.
This is exactly what scares me for them, from Gilbert to Gaithersburg, and all the churchplants inbetween. And this is what has me lifting them up to God’s mercy and care when they come to mind.
This is also a herald to my own soul that I get, and stay soft to the Holy Spirit in my own life. And that I pray regularly for God’s church and her leaders as the ink in the water seems to flow with the T4G people and pastors – seminary trained, well-read pastors around the country and the world that might not see or recognize the ink.
Ironically, Defender and I were presented with a laundry list of “sins” that we had supposedly committed and we were scorned and even mocked for saying that we rely on the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sin. That was and remains a chilling moment yet a defining moment as we sought to identify if this was one rogue pastor (sans PC) or a systemic flaw. When X-Pastor (formerly known as pastor x ;o) looked right at me/us and said “regretfully I am not the Holy Spirit.” I thought it was a frightening moment of a lack of the fear of the Lord but then realized later, in a “duh” moment that he was sarcastically mocking me/us. I felt like a complete imbecile for not seeing the mocking but fearing for him instead.
I think I have come full circle and fear for them still. But I pray and beg God for his mercy on them at the same time.
thank you, thank you for your caring and constructive service to the Church.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:27 am
To me, the problem is even more basic then forgiveness, repentance, etc… the glaring problem is that the leaders do not truly love people. If they did, they would be heartbroken over the devastation they have caused so many. They would be willing to go above and beyond to repair damages, to comfort the hurting, to apologize at least. I recently e-mailed a pastors wife from my old church letting her know how much she hurt me at one time (there was a situation where she ended up emailing me first, long story) and she couldn’t even be bothered to respond. Even if she completely disagreed with everything I said, even if she found my words offensive, even if… don’t you think if there was the slightest bit of love or humility in her she would have responded back to me? In her eyes, I am a peice of dirt not even worth the dignity of a response.
It doesn’t matter what you have as a person, leader, church, or group of churches, if you don’t have love it is all meaningless and worthless.
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 pm
HowDee, Ya’All,
We’se a cry’in out to Jesus, we’se a toot’in our horns…
We’se on our knees, juz a pray’in…
We’se a fast’in too…
We’se a lov’in each odder…
We’se juz hav’in a good ole time, praz’in Jesus!
*
We’se a see’in da walls come tumbl’in down, tumbl’in down…
“God, rise up! Days at SGM ares mock’in you!
*
Whoaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I’ze a wait’in fer ya’s great salvation, Lord!
Sopy
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Carole,
A belated thankyou for this wonderful post—- your thoughts and “heart cries” so clearly describe what so many of us, I think, try to ‘wrap our brain’ around these issues and strongholds in SGM and SGM Leadership.
Particularly: “Why would anyone,whose heart is soft towards the Lord,who allows himself to be convicted of sin,not want to RUN to those they have wronged and make things right.”**** And: “…to be able to resist the conviction of the Holy Spirit is a very scary place to find yourself.”
So….Is there not a soft heart, has or is their hearts becoming more callous,hindering more and more the voice of the Holy Spirit to see and hear truth and respond to the Holy Spirits convictions?? We have experienced a group of pastors going to another pastor,whom they all agreed had committed serious and life-damaging sins against a member of their church….to “Attempt to bring him to a place to see his sin.” This is a mystery to me— a pastor need us to point out obvious,serious,damaging sin???—why doesn’t a pastor, see and take resposibility for the sins he has committed??? This is sooo sad to watch and experience. The leaven of the letter of the law is permeating the mind,soul,emotions,heart, and spirit of the leaders.
We are in agreement with your prayer…that they would return to their first love—for it is the great unfailing Love of God that delivered us from sin and all its effects. When our eyes are only on sin, our face is down. As Believers, the veil of the law has been removed from our face, and so…”We all,with unveiled face,BEHOLDING THE GLORY OF THE LORD, are being transformed into the same image from one degree to another. FOR THIS COMES FROM THE LORD WHO IS THE SPIRIT.” (II COR 3:18)
April 28th, 2009 at 12:57 am
Cowboy, I thought your friends were leaving???
I don’t quite know what to make of the sermon/confession on 4-19. For those of you looking for reform, what do you think it will look like when it happens?
The senior pastor has now addressed every concern that the couple who left a several months ago mentioned in their email. Confession has been made and it seems heart-felt. Of course, it has been confession by the senior pastor and we’ve received no word on confession from other pastors who have specifically engaged in some of the things addressed.
He’s confessed:
1) More of a focus on sin than God (in caregroup and from the pulpit)
2) Not focused sufficiently on God’s Word (he clarified that he hoped there would be more of a focus on God’s Word and less sin-digging in caregroup, but than also mentioned that there would be no significant changes in caregoup and that this did not mean people would be doing Bible study in caregroup settings.)
3) lack of equipping of the Saints – he apologized for giving the impression that their was a hierarchy and pastors vs flock mentality.
4) Not responding well to input and observations brought to the team. He mentioned having apologized to some people for turning their observations into a focus on the observers sin.
It was moving and he seemed sincere, but part of me is still skeptical. I remember a while back there was a change and fresh emphasis on grace. I remember being so relieved that there would be less sin/self focus and more of an emphasis on Jesus Christ. But that seemed to only last for a little while before we were right back, possibly even deeper, in the sin-digging mode.
How is one to tell if this is just a cyclical short-term response or one of real change?
Also as for #4, how is it possible to know if bad counseling techniques and such are no longer being employed unless you are on the receiving end directly?
Has multiple confessions/clarifications (01-25, 03-01, 04-19) like this happened at other churches?
Thanks for the post Carole. So much to ponder.
April 30th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
You bring up some interesting points Watching Closely. I have some questions to add:
The Gilbert Pastor is confessing but is he repenting?
1. He confessed that there has been an intentional over emphasis on morbid introspection of sin.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE? If so, how? Will they instruct cg leaders to run care groups differently? What will they put in place of this focus on sin?
2. He confessed a lack of sufficient focus on the Word of God.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE? He assured the congregation that the care groups will NOT become Bible Studies. So will there be bible studies? Will the pastors encourage bible studies taught by non pastors? Will they “allow” bible studies to be taught by non pastors? What will be the criteria to be able to lead a bible study? We know of one fine gentleman who was in his fifites, who had walked with the Lord for over 30 years, who had taught not only bible studies, but from the pulpit (non SGM) and in a local bible college, who had been an elder at the other church he attended, and had attended SGM for over 10 years, and who was told by a pastor at SGM that they needed to make sure he understood the Gospel before he had a bible study in his own home.
3. He confessed a Nicolaitan division of pastors and church members.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE? If so, HOW? Will there be lay elders? How will the laity be able to impact the direction of the church?
4. He confessed responding to lay members’ observations by turning the focus to their personal sins.
BUT, WILL IT CHANGE? How will they be implementing the change? These kind of habits die hard. And WC asks a great question – how will we know it is changing?
Heartfelt confession is not enough. We need CHANGE!
April 30th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Watching Closely, Cala, bring me up to date…is this AZ sr. pastor “confessing” in front of the Apostle-turned-Bishop? At his request or requirement?
If so I’m puzzled, since the Apostle-turned-Bishop has pastors all over the West Region practicing this same kind of leadership/introspection, doesn’t he?
SURELY the Apostle-turned-regional manager isn’t making any confessions, is he?
It’s fascinating to me that there are so many pseudo-confessions of sinfulness yet I have no knowledge of ANY corporate, dedicated gatherings of any true repentance concerning the self-focus, self-examination that goes on in every SGM congregation I’ve been in, and every Celebration I’ve attended. And if we’re busy doing these introspective sin examinations, how can we possibly “Fix our eyes on Jesus” as the Scriptures exhort?
thanks in advance, for your clarity and explanation,
Defended
May 1st, 2009 at 10:52 am
The confessing pastor was the senior pastor, not the “bishop.” Though the “bishop” was there in the meeting, he did not partake of any public confession. I am not privy of their discussions and so do not know if Steve asked or advised the pastor in regards to his confession.
There is a real misunderstanding of what repentance is in this group, though they are trying hard to express their heart for the Lord and for the people. It reminds me of that passage, ”they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.”
May 1st, 2009 at 1:37 pm
How can this supposed penitence possibly be taking place in AZ? Don’t they know what is going on in Bradenton?
;o)
Do these guys talk to each other?
So confusing.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Last night I listened to the Gilbert pastor’s 4-19 message with confessions, and I am thanking God for it. This is a most encouraging step in the right direction. When a pastor stands up in public to say, “We were wrong in this emphasis, we were wrong in the way we led you….please forgive us,” then my heart rejoices, and I believe God is being glorified.
This is what I’ve been praying towards for all of SGM. I’m praying this is the beginning of a trend, and not an isolated anomaly. I have no way of knowing if this development will spread from pulpit to pulpit, but I say, “Come Holy Spirit, continue to do Your work in these men’s hearts. Let it be a genuine work; let us see the fruit of this repentance.” Time will tell if real change is coming. Some of you may think this is too little too late. But I have renewed hope for now, and hope for the future as well.
P.D.
protestantdame@gmail.com
May 1st, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Amen! P.D.
“Come Holy Spirit, continue to do Your work in these men’s hearts.”
Let it be a genuine work; let there be fruit…
Lotza, Lotza, Lotza…fruit!
*
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Amen!
Praise God!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
May 1st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Watching closely said of the Ariz. pastor’s confession:
“Not focused sufficiently on God’s Word (he clarified that he hoped there would be more of a focus on God’s Word and less sin-digging in caregroup, but than also mentioned that there would be no significant changes in caregoup and that this did not mean people would be doing Bible study in caregroup settings.)”
My question: Does this seem like the young sr. pastor’s plan is to really change things? Not to me. It still sounds like the typical control, control, control…..What does freedom in the Spirit look like????
My guess is that this young sr. pastor was told exactly what to say from Steve and the gang and he was/is told exactly what he can do. I remember what Gene Emerson told the 3 couples – the pastors in Chesapeake just needed to learn a different way. Their way is tell the people exactly what they want to hear but as soon as they walk out of the room, business is back to usual.
I can’t help but wonder with tithes down, people leaving these churches, etc. if they are becoming desperate to convince people that they are changing. IF CJ. STeve and others are serious about repentance and change, they would be the ones repenting – publically. They would be the ones changing SGM polity and doctrine. If they really saw their sin, they would be QUICK to repent, QUICK to announce change – from the TOP.
May 1st, 2009 at 7:39 pm
PD, & Sopy, Amen and Amen!
God searches the heart and if this is a real turning point then to God be the Glory!
Having been thru what we have experienced, with Steve in the room, this AZ meeting is a 180* change from what he said to us and what reforms he said Defender and I needed if we wanted to stay with SGM. But I may have to go and listen to the April msg. to hear it for myself and look for that hope that you have.
Having been in that hotel room with Steve presiding over a 2-day, pre-judged “trial” of Defender and myself and being told (by Steve) we were “too dependent on the Holy Spirit” for the conviction of sin, well, this could be a point of praise. Sadly, it is also diametrically different from what was preached in Florida so once again I wonder about accountability, and real transparency from one leader, one congregation to another.
Nevertheless my prayer, my hope for SGM and ALL of God’s people is that we would glorify the Lord here on earth.
(So glad to have “found” you here on Refuge, PD and PK!)
May 1st, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Those of us at the Abbey are still skeptical that the Gilbert Church’s pastoral team (PT) has really turned the corner. For instance back in January an influential couple left the church and emailed their reasons to friends and the pastoral team.
One of the reason stated for leaving was, “only pastors do teach.” To address this deficit, several months ago the PT allowed a care group leader to preach from the pulpit. The title of his sermon was “Surviving in Babylon.” How appropriate for our day and age. He received an enthusiastic standing ovation from the congregation, but perhaps not as enthusiastic from the PT.
In the sermon this layman artfully addressed some of the church’s issues like morbid introspection. It took almost a month before the message was posted to the churches website. It only remained posted a few weeks before the church officials pulled all the messages older than March 30th. Hmmm.
There are a number of reasons for our skepticism.
Recently, from “within the beltway” of SGC Gilbert, a comment slipped that he, the above mentioned care group leader, will never be invited back into the pulpit.
Apparently there has been an announcement that a gentleman will be having a study for the singles. But it was also announced that no one needed to worry about preparing, or reading or studying for this event. All you need to do is show up. To us this does not seem to be a Bible study – it is a not encouraging people to get in and study the bible, but simply to come unprepared to listen to teaching that we assume has been vetted by the Pastors. So for a congregation of 700 there is one bible study. And still, any bible study starting up must have pastoral approval, direction and coaching. They can’t risk views beyond their narrow focus.
Dangerous ground! It seems this was the final insult leading to leaving of the couple in January. In their letter they stated, “We were strongly encouraged to stop leading a non-competing Bible study with friends and family in our home this past fall. We had been doing a book study on Martyn Lloyd Jones’
Romans 6: The New Man, which is sold in the SGC bookstore.” Obviously a dangerous couple and book!
On a second reading of the departing couple’s letter mentioned above and of the numerous postings on SGM Refuge and Survivors, there is an over arching issue of CONTROL. The censuses at the Abbey is the PT just doesn’t perceive their heavy hand. Such is the nature of deception. So with their words they say one thing but by their actions, laity disdain lives on.
So what will be the signs of real change? It will be characterized by a:
· PT that assumes the role of cheerleaders not authoritarians.
· PT that trumpets an environment of trust and empowerment where permission is not requested but assumed.
· PT that regularly demonstrates an exuberant expectation of good of the many spontaneous godly exploits of their congregation.
· PT that measures success by the joy, enthusiasm and accomplishments of the ministries arising from their congregation.
· PT that isn’t suspicious of members of the congregation with greater and different gifting than theirs. Those in the congregation with greater teaching and prophetic gifting will routinely get pulpit exposure.
· and finally, the weekly PT damage control meetings will be replaced by praise and testimonial meetings. PT members that don’t get it and can’t make the paradigm shift will be let go and if necessary ties to the mothership will be broken.
While the faith of those afar is commendable, those of us who are writing from Gilbert are dubious. So until there are visible signs of a major shift away from CONTROL please don’t drink the water. It could be hazardous to your health.
May 2nd, 2009 at 12:23 am
I sure hope they have a plan to change for the sake of the many good people in this church…
I must say, it is encouraging to hear that this is not commonplace and that it might possibly indicate the Holy Spirit’s work.
I do know that at the last family meeting, when Rich was asked a question towards the end, it appeared that the other pastors were not pleased with the question or Rich’s answer (which wasn’t an accurate.) This makes me a little concerned that they aren’t all on board.
If Rich is serious about what he confessed to, I pray that he has the ability to lead the other pastors and convince the higher-ups that these changes DO need to take place. I pray that he is brave enough to challenge the SGM status-quo (and keep his job). I pray that the people here keep their eyes and ears open and hold our pastors accountable to make the changes that they promised to do. (Making such a 180 degree shift will most certainly not be easy.) Many here are worried that so many people are leaving the church. I pray they keep asking questions and don’t follow the lead of messages like the one in Bradenton and blindly trust.
DEFENDED: No one else has made any confessions and according to RR, he is the only one at fault.
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:26 am
“Nevertheless my prayer, my hope for SGM and ALL of God’s people is that we would glorify the Lord here on earth.”
This is my hope and prayer, too, Defended! For SGM, for myself, for all of us!
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 am
Brother Cadfael!
I’ve missed you here at the Refuge! I’m sure you have been very busy at the Abbey…
Very enlightening words you have shared above, my friend! Lots to think about…
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:50 am
Watching Closely… all of those at the Gilbert church (and the other churches, too!) are in our prayers! None of us know what the future holds, but God does! And He loves you all, you are in the palm of His mighty hands… Keep looking to Him, not to men… He will never lead you astray…
May 2nd, 2009 at 8:25 am
Brother Cadfael!
Light bulb!!!!!!!!
Since one of the marks of an elder in the Book is that he is able to teach….has SGM’s highly trained leaders understood that to mean that “only elders CAN teach?”
The verse clearly means that if a man is to be appointed as elder, he needs to be able to teach, i.e., he needs to have a command of scriptures and the ability to give instruction to the people.
It doesn’t mean that only ‘elders’ can step into the pulpit.
This then would explain, possibly, why only pastors are elders, and that, unlike New Testatment churches, the church is not allowed to ‘choose from among them’ lay elders?!?!
This would ulitmately mean that ANY teaching done in SGM churches comes directly from those inculcated with PC doctrines and training.
Aha. Hmm.
May 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 am
Second thought: apparently, PK and PD have a pretty solid church, with a pastor that understands grace. Certainly the two of them are testimonies to this.
So…how do they–pastor and congregants–impact SGM? And how do they protect against SGM coming in to replace their pastor with someone more gifted in pastoral gifts, (what the heck does that even mean?), if he ever is seen as not toeing the SGM line?
May 2nd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I am happy for PK and PD that they are exercising their freedom and integrity in posting and their heart for God and His people. But I find myself left to wonder if there’s some kevlar in PK’s coat of arms! ;o)
(see his posts on polity)
May 2nd, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Hi Defended:
I haven’t escaped unscathed, in the least, in my open criticism of SGM. No kevlar here; in fact, the chinks in my armor are well known.
~John
May 13th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I’m baffled about something… And this is not solely an SGM comment but one that relates to something that was said here a while back about our Christian witness to the lost being soiled by our criticizing fellow brethren in an open forum. I recently commented on the sacrilege of this woman’s belief system and how it affects the Episcopal church: http://www.worldmag.com/articles/15306 .
This woman, Katherine Ragsdale, has been placed in charge of an Episcopal seminary. What I commented on was this statement she made Easter 2002: “The suffering and death of Jesus, according to the theory of the Atonement, pays for our sins and buys our salvation. It’s an interesting theory, but not one that I find compelling.”
I made a comment about that statement and how damaging it is to people of faith when their leaders don’t even claim to believe in the atonement and was immediately lashed out at by someone for being self-righteous and a hater. At what point do we cease to be lovers of God and defenders of the Gospel and become instead ferocious, self-righteous haters? Are we not called to point out errors in doctrine and keep the blind from leading the blind straight into a ditch? Yes, we’re called to love one another, but do we let this type of error go on? I was floored that this person heaved such accusations at me, and it reminded me of some of the comments we’ve read from SGM defenders on this blog. I am by no means saying that they would ever be so blasphemous as to throw out the atonement and defend abortion. On these issues, I’m sure we all agree — SGM folks and non SGM folks alike. What I’m saying is that while my heart is always for healing and restoration, that doesn’t mean I or any of us should sit idly by and watch people say that the very creed (Nicene for the Episcopalians, right?) they have vowed to defend and adhere to is nonsense. How could we NOT comment on such a thing? And for that matter, how can we not speak out about the abuses we’ve experienced or seen in SGM? We are actually speaking out because we care about the church, not because we don’t. And we don’t want to bring down SGM. We want to see truth triumph. How can we do that without it appearing to them that we’re arrogant, hatred-spewing, self-righteous egotists? I know that’s what they think of us, and I don’t like it. I want to see God glorified. THAT, and nothing else, is what drives me. But somehow that is not coming through. Can anyone speak to that? Is it because what I’m saying involves criticizing a priest or church leader that I (we) am/are being raked over the coals time and again?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Freedom Fighter,
I must have missed the Episcopal thing. For a church leader to say she does not find the atonement “compelling”…well, she is sadly and seriously misled, being a wolf instead of a sheep, I think.
I do believe we should defend the weak when they cannot defend themselves. For us to keep quiet about injustice or error in an organization fro which we have had personal experience is an impossible task, when there are such venues like the blogs we post on to describe our stories. How can we keep quiet while others suffer in silence?
When you say you (or “we”) are being raked over the coals time and again, do you mean the criticism that comes our way because we speak up about the injustice and error? If that is what you mean, we are following in revered Footsteps. Jesus, too, was “raked over the coals” for speaking against the Pharisees, to the point of dying on the cross. If He’d kept quiet about their hypocrisy, maybe they would have left Him alone. So, I say that as long as your heart is to glorify God and defend the weak, you have no reason to back down from your views on speaking out when you see error.
That’s my two cents worth of birdseed type wisdom from a fellow believer who also wants to see the Lord glorified in His people!