This is worth a rerun. The following is an edited version of John’s (PK’s) first post here, back at the end of August. The additional info is worth consideration, and many of our current friends weren’t around in August.
Enjoy!
~INTRODUCTION~
Hello Beloved:
This article on Systematic Theology (1,264 pages; not currently available at http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/) and Bible Doctrine (528 pages; currently available at http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/) is an expansion and revision of a post I authored here on SGM Refuge a few months ago, now with quite a few changes:
(1) I’ve attempted to remove as much sarcasm, personal jabs and inflammatory language as possible, without weakening the primary concerns I and many others have in examining the subject and discovering the critical issues surrounding it.
(2) I have also tried to do some mop-up (editing) to make it a unified, coherent statement. That being said, I am open to anyone pointing out items or sections that need to be corrected, be it spelling, grammar, references, redundancies, inflammatory language you may see remaining in it, etc. Whatever the concern, email me at protestantknight@gmail.com… Let’s not miss an opportunity to glorify God!
(3) Many sections of newer material and information have been added after doing more research in comparing Systematic Theology and Bible Doctrine.
(5) My final goal in changing this material is to make it available for members of the flock and leadership to use as a more formal structure for discussion on the topic. I would especially ask that you use it as a document of direct inquiry when asking the civil but tough questions about SGM in order to seek answers, graciously express concern and seek reform within SGM.
These changes were not made grudgingly. I sincerely desire reform within SGM, and do ask forgiveness for any sinful behavior on my part in which this issue was addressed or presented in the past by me.
~~~
WHY WAS SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY SLIMMED DOWN INTO BIBLE DOCTRINE, AND WHAT WERE THE RESULTS?
by Protestant Knight
Wayne Grudem’s works have been a staple in our Sovereign Grace Ministries’ (SGM) affiliated churches for over a decade now. I was personally curious as to why such a great volume like Systematic Theology needed to be condensed through abridgement and editing into the smaller Bible Doctrine. Even Grudem himself has humbly acknowledged that the original Systematic Theology was a breakthrough in terms of readability and comprehension, and a success in regard to adding a powerful weapon into the Christian soldier’s arsenal:
In the five years since Systematic Theology was published, the two most frequent comments I have heard are, “Thank you for writing a theology book that I can understand,” and “This book is helping my Christian life.” I thank God that he has allowed it to be useful to people in these ways. We have attempted to preserve these two characteristics -clarity and application to life- in this shorter book [Bible Doctrine]. (Grudem, Bible Doctrine, 11)
I read Bible Doctrine‘s entire preface and reviewed it several times, to make sure I was clear regarding Grudem’s reasons why Bible Doctrine was even published. I think it’s important to note the factors and guidelines that were involved.
Grudem states clearly at the beginning:
This book is a condensed version of my 1,264-page Systematic Theology. It is intended for students in one-semester classes in Christian Doctrine, but I hope it will also prove useful for adult Sunday school classes and home Bible studies in which Christians want to work through a readable and biblically based survey of Christian doctrine. (Grudem, Bible Doctrine, 11; emphasis mine)
It should be noted that this volume, Bible Doctrine, is actively promoted by and available through SGM.
This is curious, as my understanding was that the SGM Pastor’s College (PC) uses Systematic Theology, and that this is not for ”one semester.” The information related to me was that studies from ST stretch throughout the entire length of time PC takes place. If this is not true or has changed, I would appreciate updated information on this matter (no sarcasm on my part; please feel free to email me at protestantknight_at_gmail_dot_com). So our pastors didn’t use Bible Doctrine in Pastor’s College.
If Bible Doctrine was also tailored for “adult Sunday school classes,” I would appreciate it if anyone could provide me information on (1) any “adult Sunday school classes” available within SGM churches and if (2) they are or have ever been taught using Bible Doctrine as both source material and textbook. [UPDATE 04/08/2009 - Please see comments by "Jeremy" at 3:44pm after the end of this post] I would also appreciate any information on whether or not Bible Doctrine is the source material and/or a textbook for any “home Bible studies” within SGM.
I know that an obvious response to my above inquiries could be, “It wasn’t written just for SGM.” That’s not my point. My point is questioning why this volume is actively promoted and carried by SGM when it seems to have been designed for purposes that are not visibly present or are in fact absent within SGM.
If by “home Bible studies” Grudem meant individuals studying, then concerns can now be raised about Bible Doctrine itself and the apparent omissions as a result of the editing involved. This is particularly critical in regard to individuals within SGM doing solo Bible studies with this volume for reasons that will be made clear by the end of this article.
So did Wayne Grudem do the bulk of the condensing and editing to create Bible Doctrine? No. Grudem tells us who did:
Jeff Purswell… did the hard work of cutting 740 pages from my Systematic Theology. He consulted regularly with me, and we agreed to eliminate whole sections that were more relevant for seminary students (chapters on church government and church discipline, for example, and most of the detailed footnotes that dealt with fine points of interpretation of scripture verses)… he also eliminated the bibliographies and (with regret) the hymn at the end of each chapter… he added a glossary of special terms and review questions for each chapter. (Grudem, Bible Doctrine, 11)
Our SGM Store website’s ad copy confirms the editing credit as it gives this description of Bible Doctrine:
Here is Dr. Grudem’s monumental yet accessible Systematic Theology, masterfully reduced some 800 pages by Jeff Purswell, who serves as the Academic Dean of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastors College. A must-own volume for everyone with sincere interest in Christian doctrine.
Back to the preface in Bible Doctrine, Grudem goes on to say he felt Purswell did a “wonderful job” condensing Systematic Theology. From my own perspective, the material that was carried over from Systematic Theology (ST) into Bible Doctrine (BD), does seem to be an adequate enough abridgement in consideration of the factors Grudem described. The real question is what was not carried over from ST into BD.
Let’s be very clear at this point. This discussion and examination of ST and BD is not a crusade against Jeff Purswell. The fact that he is the Dean of Pastor’s College (since 1998) at SGM does, however play a role in questions raised upon examining what seems to me the obvious incompleteness of BD (copyrighted 1999).
Based on Grudem’s description in BD‘s preface, we can form a quick outline of at least five items that are missing in BD with a general description by me of what each is and its application in ST:
(1) Church Government – also referred to as polity, Grudem’s defining questions at the beginning of ST‘s “Chapter 47: Church Government” (pp. 904-949) are helpful to get an overview of the sub-categories under Grudem’s view of polity. Grudem also notes in ST that “biblical church government” is one of the factors that can make a church “more pure” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 874). SGM is not excluded from that all-inclusive word, “church.”
(2) Church Discipline - (ST, pp. 894-900) This is an elaboration on how the church exercises Matthew 18:15-20, along with supporting verses describing the diverse types of sins warranting discipline, including (but not limited to) those described in Romans 16:17, Titus 3:10, 1 Corinthians 5:1, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, 1 Timothy 1:20, and 2 John 10-11. The pattern seems to be that the sins are public in nature and are continued over a period of time. Grudem also notes the “right use of church discipline” is another “sign of a more pure church” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 874). Once again, SGM is not excluded from that all-inclusive word, “church.”
(3) Detailed footnotes that dealt with fine points of interpretation of scripture verses -These are goldmines in illuminating Dr. Grudem’s methodology in interpreting scripture.
(4) Bibliographies at the end of each chapter - While BD has an “Appendix 3: Annotated Bibliography of Evangelical Systematic Theologies” (pp. 496-504), it is not the comprehensive end-of-chapter lists found in ST.
(5) Hymns at the end of each chapter -It appears Dr. Grudem was careful to select hymns he thought best reflected the subject matter and themes of each chapter within ST. I can see where this would be of special appeal to worship leaders, poets and other artisans God has mercifully sprinkled throughout his church.
So the above five missing pieces from ST are based on Grudem’s own description; but there is a lot packed behind those five, as particularly the first two (Church Government and Church Discipline with their sub-categories) come up as talking points time and again via the testimonies on these blogs.
To illustrate this further, it’s important to examine the Table of Contents from ST and BD regarding the differences on what is contained in Part 6: The Doctrine of the Church (both volumes list this as Part 6). This may seem like a tedious and repetitive task, but these differences are important. Here’s how it reads in ST, if you were to cross out (cross out) sections or topics that are already in BD:
Part 6: THE DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH
Chapter 44 (p. 853): The Church: Its Nature, Its Marks, and Its Purposes… What is necessary to make a church? How can we recognize a true church? The purposes of the church.
Chapter 45 (p. 873): The Purity and Unity of the Church… What makes a church more or less pleasing to God? What kinds of churches should we cooperate with or join?
Chapter 46 (p. 887): The Power of the Church… What kind of authority does the church have? How should church discipline function?
Chapter 47 (p. 904): Church Government… How should a church be governed? How should church officers be chosen? Should women serve as pastors of churches?
Chapter 48 (p. 950): Means of Grace Within the Church… What are the different activities within the life of the church that God uses to bring blessing to us? What do we miss if we neglect involvement in a local church?
Chapter 49 (p. 966): Baptism… Who should be baptized? How should it be done? What does it mean?
Chapter 50 (p. 988): The Lord’s Supper… What is the meaning of the Lord’s Supper? How should it be observed?
Chapter 51 (p. 1003): Worship… How can our worship fulfill its great purpose in the new Testament age? What does it mean to worship “in spirit and in truth”?
Chapter 52 (p. 1016): Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1): General Questions… What are spiritual gifts? How many are there? Have some gifts ceased? Seeking and using spiritual gifts.
Chapter 53 (p. 1049): Gifts of the Holy Spirit (2): Specific Gifts… How should we understand and use specific spiritual gifts? (Grudem, Systematic Theology, Contents; cross-referenced with Grudem, Bible Doctrine, Contents)
Let me restate: What is not crossed out above is what is not covered in Bible Doctrine. To simplify this, here is a clear list of topics (in bold) and sub-topics (italics, listed as questions) that an individual will miss when studying BD:
[The Church]: Its Marks, and Its Purposes… What is necessary to make a church?
The Purity and Unity of the Church… What kinds of churches should we cooperate with or join?
The Power of the Church… What kind of authority does the church have? How should church discipline function?
Church Government… How should a church be governed? How should church officers be chosen? Should women serve as pastors of churches?
Means of Grace Within the Church… What are the different activities within the life of the church that God uses to bring blessing to us? What do we miss if we neglect involvement in a local church?
Worship… How can our worship fulfill its great purpose in the new Testament age? What does it mean to worship “in spirit and in truth”?
I believe it is an understatement to say that compelling questions should be asked about the above ”missing” sections in Bible Doctrine. As was previously pointed out, these topics -now going beyond just church government [polity] and church discipline- tend to be flashpoints for testimonials in regard to negative experiences with SGM.
To see how this works out in regard to comparing exact portions of text from each book can be seen in regard to how each one lists signs of a more-pure church. The following is from ST, with overlap/duplication from BD crossed out:
C. Signs of a More-Pure Church
Factors that make a church “more pure” include:
1. Biblical doctrine (or right preaching of the Word)
2. Proper use of the sacraments (or ordinances)
3. Right use of church discipline
4. Genuine worship
5. Effective prayer
6. Effective witness
7. Effective fellowship
8. Biblical church government
9. Spiritual power in ministry
10. Personal holiness of life among members
11. Care for the poor
12. Love for Christ
(Grudem, Systematic Theology, 874; cross-referenced with Grudem, Bible Doctrine, 371-372)
Once again, what is not crossed out above is what is not in the BD text. Key issues such as effective fellowship, biblical church government and spiritual power in ministry are missing in one’s study of BD. Of particular curiosity is the fact that right use of church discipline is included in this list in BD, when BD has no section or chapter whatsoever that deals with this subject in any detail for one to know exactly what the “right use of church discipline” is.
The above examples are taken from just one cross-referenced section found in both ST and BD.
I return to my original question and observations stated at the outset of this article: Why is this volume (Bible Doctrine) actively promoted and carried by SGM when it seems to have been designed for purposes that are not visibly present or are in fact absent within SGM (“students in one semester classes of Christian doctrine,” “adult Sunday school classes,” and “home Bible studies”)? If by “home Bible studies” Grudem meant individuals studying, then concerns can now be raised about Bible Doctrine itself due to the apparent omissions that resulted from the editing involved.
For the person reading this who wonders why I seem to be arguing minutiae between theological volumes by the same author, my response is best given by Wayne Grudem himself:
Most churches will tend to think that the areas in which they are strong are the most important areas, and the areas where they are weak are less important. But the New Testament encourages us to work for the purity of the church in all of these areas. (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 875; emphasis mine)
Grudem’s statement is buttressed by the following scripture references:
Colossians 1:28; 3:16-17
1 Corinthians 4:20; 5:6-7, 12-13; 11:17-34; 14:12
Acts 1:8; 2:44-47; 4:32-35
Romans 1:16; 15:26
Galatians 2:10; 3:3-5
In closing, here is a sobering reminder -courtesy of Dr. Grudem- of what happens when a church as a whole does not strive for purity:
But we must realize that not all churches will respond well to influences that would bring them to greater purity. Sometimes, in spite of a few faithful Christians within a church, its dominant direction will be set by others who are determined to lead it on another course. Unless God graciously intervenes to bring reformation, some of these churches will become cults, and others will just die and close their doors. But more commonly these churches will simply drift into liberal Protestantism. (Grudem, Systematic Theology, 875; I could not find this statement in Bible Doctrine)
In Christ because of Christ, and always praying for God’s gracious intervention to bring reformation,
~John (Protestant Knight)
~~~
~BIBLIOGRAPHY~
Grudem, Wayne. Bible Doctrine: Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1999.
Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Leicester, Great Britain: InterVarsity; Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1994.
SGM Store’s ad copy for Bible Doctrine can be found at: http://www.sovereigngracestore.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=B3080-00-11
I am a member of Gulf Coast Community Church and we have used Bible Doctrine in a number of adult Sunday school type classes. I don’t think this happens in all SGM churches but they do use it.
I also want to make some comments about the polity issue since that seems to be the biggest complaint against SGM.
I have done a bit of study on the topic and I have tried to look at the three main forms as objectively as I can, primarily from scripture and looking at the scriptures that each use to get their system from. I have come to a few conclusions.
The first is that SGM’s polity is biblical. I understand that those here will not agree with my interpretation, however I think it should be mentioned that they do get their church government from scripture. I find no indication in scripture that the office of an apostle has ceased any more than that of a teacher, prophet, or deacon ect. I agree there are some good things in the Presbyterian system, but I think SGM’s system fits scripture better. I find the congregationalist system of polity to be very practical but I don’t see it in scripture.
The second conclusionI have made is that polity is a tertiary doctrine. I think it is good to study and people should look for a church that agrees with their convictions. I agree completely that we should strive for perfect doctrine, however a bad polity does not disqualify a church, or mean it is necessarily a bad church. I think there are a number of good Baptist churches even though I think their polity is way off base. I was a part of a Baptist church when I was a child and even as a young teen I could not reconcile the lack of apostles with my reading of scripture.
The fact remains that even though men like Grudem and Piper, while not joining SGM still associate with them. They may debate and dissagree on some doctrines, but Piper still speaks at our conferences, and Grudem still promotes Bible Doctrine, even though it was edited by Purswell who I will admit was more ready to cut parts he didn’t agree with. However I think it’s safe to day that both Purswell and Grudem believe that the parts they disagree on are minor compared to the parts they do agree on.
My recommendation to people who have issue with SGM’s polity is not to simply get over it, but to find a new church that you can support fully and be fully committed to that church. Pray for SGM, lord knows we don’t have it all figured out but I think we are closer than some others, which is why I am still here. But to continue to debate and attempt to reform SGM on polity is not helpful. As I have said before SGM’s polity is biblically based so calling them to repent for that would be like me calling a post-millennialist to repent for his bad eschatology, (I’m amillenial BTW). You also can’t argue that polity is more important than eschatology because it affects the way a church functions. Eschatology drastically affects they way a church functions and I think it is just as important as polity (that is, tertiary).
Here are my $0.02 about this site:
I don’t in any way want to ignore the pain anyone has suffered in a SGM church and I am deeply sorry that it happened. However I don’t see this site as a source of healing. This site makes people feel better by offering validation, but validation and healing are not the same thing. I would recommend to those people to find healing in another church, but this site seems to spend more time lifting up the bandage and saying: “look how bad these people are hurting” but in lifting that bandage I think your ripping the wound wide open again.
I respect the hearts and desires of those who run this place, but I don’t think this site is accomplishing its intended goals.
Please note that I do not hold anyone at SGM refuge in contempt, I pray for you and I hope you find healing in the grace of God. However I disagree with you doctrinally on some of these issues. I really wrote to reply to the question about using Bible Doctrine in a Suday school type class, and just kept going.
Jeremy-
my 2 cents…
you can’t heal something until the real problem is validated. That’s why your Doctor will run tests to confirm what is ailing you. You can;t heal something until the source of the problem is identified.
As for your convictions that SGM’s polity is Biblical…maybe on paper, but in the real world it’s run like a Roman Empire with “the first among equals” calling the shots. What good is all that Sunday School doctrine if you don’t intend to really practice it?
peace-mm
Dear Jeremy,
Please read my earlier post this afternoon on the taking a closer look thread. I must agree with MM. SG’s polity may look good on paper but something has gone very wrong with the whole movement starting with the top. There just wouldn’t be so many people being hurt and abused if things were really right. Based on what you wrote, I would guess that you have not observed or experienced first hand any of the abuse. (I am sorry if my perception is wrong.) Believe me, it is going on in many SGM churches.
As far as whether or not this site is bringing forth healing, please ask those posting on this site who have been wounded or abused by SGM as to whether or not this blog is a place of healing. I say this respectfully to you Brother but if you have not been hurt yourself, can you really judge the merits of this or other blogs?
The other issue is that God is using these blogs to reveal much of what has been hidden within SGM closed doors. Just as God has used other sources of media to reveal truth, to reveal cover-ups, to bring to light error and false doctrines, He is using the internet.
May God bless you Brother!
Jeremy:
I appreciate your measured, careful, but direct response and thoughts more than you know (it is a good example to me of how I should engage in conversation).
We are going to have to agree to disagree, however. For the polity we already have, we do not have a complete statement on this (our own booklet and doctrinal statement on Polity says as much); in my opinion, it is very much up in the air and suspect to subjective captivity.
Just my thoughts, but you sound familiar with my thoughts. Thanks again for your measured honesty. Truly.
If I haven’t “seen” you here before, welcome brother!
~John
Jeremy–excellent post, thanks so much. Many good points, I will think about them.
Hey everyone,
Long time no see
I still read what goes on here from time to time, but school keeps me from posting usually. I saw somewhat randomly that a dear friend had posted, and thought I’d stick my head in…
Jeremy,
Thanks so much for your thoughts, and for being willing to even have this conversation, my friend…they are more than most at GCCC are willing to offer. You’ve already heard the vast majority of my thoughts on this subject, but a couple of things stood out to me in reading your post:
1) Polity isn’t the biggest complaint. The broken lives and unrepentant sin are the biggest complaints, polity is simply what many here at the Refuge (including me) see as the vehicle that those things come in. If we just had a disagreement about polity, nobody would start a blog about…maybe
2) Polity isn’t simply tertiary issue about who’s elders and who’s deacons…it’s an issue that gets to the heart of every decision that’s made in a church and a denomination. For example: Matthew 18 lists the third step in church discipline as taking a matter to the church, and then the fourth step is removal from the church.
In a SGM church, the senior pastor has the final…really, the only… word on who’s brought before the Church and who’s subsequently removed. There is a very real sense in which in a SGM church, the senior pastor *is* the church.Is that Biblical? If GCCC had an eldership in place, a la the Presbyterians, giving accountability and oversight to Jerry, would the meeting about Fallon and I have taken place? If it would have (it wouldn’t have), would it have happened in the way it did? Could a difference of polity have kept sin and broken relationships from happening, not just in my situation, but in the many other stories here (which I encourage you to read)?
3) I do think this blog brings healing..in fact, if it weren’t for this blog and Survivors, I’m not sure I’d be in a church right now…I might’ve gone and become a Catholic or something (that’s an inside joke folks, no need to be alarmed
) The kind words, encoragement, and yes, validation from the wonderful brothers and sisters here have been a major blessing in my life.
What really re-opens the wound is being treated like crap on the bottom of a shoe by people who used to call themselves your friends…being slandered and lied about by your own family members (you know who I’m talking about) is particularly painful.
Love you man, thanks for your willing and open heart and good thoughts.
Good Morning…
It has been a while since I spent any time on this site… I am back from an R&R in FL after losing my grandson and am feeling refreshed as much as I can be… I just want to say that this site and the wonderful people here have been a healing balm to me… You guys have opened your hearts to me and shown me Christian love that I never experienced while a member of a sgm church. The hurts I expereienced at my “church” weren’t just about government of the church they were about being so wrapped up in accepted doctrine and trying to keep people under control and look good that the leadership neglected to minister to the person as an individual. I felt like we were all slaves to the leadership. I was at a bible study in FL last week where they were talking about slaves and one definition was ” a human tool” …Be it everyones experience or not I felt like that describes how I was treated. Because I had an empty nest they thought I should spend all my time helping others out. They wanted me to babysit while they would go to lunch with each other or to a movie. We were never and I do mean never invited to go. They wanted me to cook for a sick Mom but when I was sick they never had the time to help me.After all it was just my husband and myself why did we need help. I allowed them to use me and I feel stupid that I let it go on for so long. When I brought it up to leadership they would tell me I was being self-centered. This site IS helping me heal….I have been turned around from looking inward for my sin to looking at the empty cross and beyond….. Jesus died for my sins and set me free to glorify Himself…. SG taught that for every one look at my sin I was to look 10 times at the cross….What did that mean anyway… To me it meant the cross was more improtant than my sins …If that was the case why was every care group meeting during the last 2 years of my life at sg church focused on confessing sin and repenting of it……. While I was a part of sg movement I always felt less than exceptable but to me as I look back on that experience it was like a slap in the face to a Creator who has said He made me a little lower than the angels. He also cherishes me. I know I am using the word me a lot. I don’t think I am to serve myself but my Master and Redeemer…. At SG I felt like we were to serve the leadership. When I was asked to serve on a women’s planning committee I was told I was picked because they knew I would do whatever the pastors wife wanted to do and not make waves…. That was the last straw for me. I had hoped I wasn’t seeing what I thought I was seeing in leadership but there it was in black and white …..
I am so grateful to have been set free from the bondage of sg and to be full of the joy of my salvation ….. Jesus is my life….. He is smiling at me and bidding me walk in the hope of His sacrifice. I no longer feel so hopeless….PTL
One thought about this topic on ST vs BD….. I have both in my library. My husband and I discussed many times doctrine we were being taught at church and what we were reading in ST…. They didn’t match up all the time…. I wish I could give an example but at the moment I can’t bring one to mind…I just remember coming home from church and pulling out our ST and finding what it said…. We often wondered if it was just us wrongly interpreting what was being said in ST but when BD came out some of the things that were omitted were what we had debated….. It left us scratching our heads I know one thing was the fact that they had omitted the chapter on the Work of the Holy Spirit…. It was ch. 30 in ST…. To me this chapter was a very important ch dealing with the Trinity of God…. Later in ST and BD they discuss the gifts and how they apply but why did they remove the chapter that explained the distinctive work of the HS…. ” The Holy Spirit is now the primary manifestation of the presence of the Trinity among us. He is the one who is most prominently present with us now.” ( ST chapter 30) That whole 3rd paragraph is so very improtant to the function of the church!…To me the spiritual gifts are manifested through the indwelling of the HS…. It isn’t just a gift we are born with or develop…. It is the HS in me using me to do the will of God…. Why would they leave out who He is and just put in what the gifts are? I may be missing something …after all I am not a bible scholar and I haven’t read ST or BD for several years….. These are just rambling thoughts of a redeemed woman…..
Martie,
The “Rambling Thoughts of The Redeemed” are always welcome here.
That’s a good name for a blog….
Dear Martie,
I am so sorry for the loss of your grandson. I pray that our wonderful and loving Abba Daddy will wrap His loving arms around you today and give you much comfort and healing. I am sad to read your post “hearing” how you were treated by SGM leadership and how you never felt accepted. Know that this is the norm and you have not been singled out – most everyone is treated this way. I am happy that you are out and free. Free to enjoy the abundant life that Jesus has promised to us. Free to walk in victory, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. It is so wonderful to be looking up at Jesus and not constantly looking at ourselves and our sin. It is so wonderful to walk in the truth that we are accepted in the beloved and to get away from the fear, the rejection, the condemnation. Rest in the goodness, kindness and love that only Jesus Christ offers. A woman who was badly devastated by someone siginificant in her life told me the other day that God gives her “kisses” everyday! Let’s look for them and find them for ourselves today!
Hi Martie! Welcome back. I understand what you mean about feeling like “a human tool.” When we were compliant and useful, all went well. But when we didn’t unquestioningly comply, then suddenly we were no longer a joy to our pastor, but a problem. This is just me, but in my ponderings about the ministry of a pastor, I’ve wondered if it wouldn’t be more scriptural and more productive if, instead of seeing themselves as the knowers of all things pertaining to the local church and using their members as pawns in that local vision, they would look to the heart of the person, listen and learn their passions and heart’s desire for service, equip and train them in it (or help them find good training elsewhere), then turn them loose? Obviously I cannot say what every SGM pastor’s approach is on this topic, but clearly it was a problem in our old PDI church. It comes across to us as more of an interest in what the denomination or “family of churches” is doing, rather than the Kingdom of God, its vastness and diversity.
I thank you for those words Jim… I may have been the one to mention the kisses from the King…. I did a bible study with teenage girls last year and one thing they were to do was find a kiss from the King everyday…. It could be a verse that jumped off the page or a natural event like a sunset or a kind gesture from a friend or even a conviction of something that needed to be changed in their lives…. Kisses from Our King are around us daily and many times during the day …We just have to be opened to see them…. Just as a reminder…I have lost 2 grandsons now , my home, my husband lost his job,( but a year ago this May God provided another one) our savings, and had to move from our kids in AL after only getting back there 2 years ago… That was were we moved to when we left our SGM church in FL…..( All this took place in a 13 month period of time) But God is so faithful…. He gives me kisses all the time… He is the Lover of my soul…..
oops I said Jim and I meant Fred! sorry Fred…I appreciate your words too!!
Gracie… I agree with what you said! It appeared the “family of churches” was more important than anything…. Sometimes I wonder how grieved God must be over the structure of sgm…..
I am headed to Tybee Island in a couple weeks and I plan on spending a lot of time just loving on God and being loved by Him…. It will be so grand to experience His creation and sense His presence in such a glorious place……
Jim….I am a big time rambler…ha…I often get started on one subject and before you know it I have gone through several….. I have my husband laughing trying to keep up…..
Re: Jeremy – good post thanks for posting, however I do disagree with you on both points.
1 – Whether it is biblical – I think the bible is clear on having congregational authority of some sort, which is lacking at SGM. As PK wonderful post on polity shows SGM’s polity is flawed and their support for it in the perspectives uses quotes out of context to imply meanings contrary to what the author intended. I think it is hard to say for certain that their polity is biblical because who really knows their polity or what their basis is. They don’t really clearly spell out their polity too well and the only thing that they have as a basis – the perspectives – says itself that it doesn’t fully explain it. I also questions how they have a polity that as far as I know no reputable reformed scholar would say is Biblical. Are we to believe that SGM, with its leadership consisting mainly of people who have never gone to seminary, or college, and who don’t know how to read the bible in the original languages, has stumbled onto something profound that all the other reformed scholars who have spent their lives studying scriptures have missed? I also think that it is clear that this form of government was in existence for a long time in the church, from the early day, before they were reformed or before they really had any justification for it. The now justification appears to be trying to justify what you had at the beginning even though you have changed most of the other beliefs.
I also disagree that it is tertiary -especially in SGM case. I think that it is fairly tertiary in general, however in SGM in influences every aspect of the church and that makes it something more. It influences how they preach, how they study the bible, who speaks for God, who has authority, etc. In most churches their is not near as much an impact from the church polity, however in SGM the pastors are God to the congregation which makes it almost part of their Christology, which is defineatly important. As to the close freinships with other leaders, we don’t know how much they really know and what they really think about it. They might be speaking about this in private to CJ, or they might not realize what their polity really is, which I think is more likely. I know that before attending CLC I was fairly well connected in the local reformed community and was on staff at other reformed churches, and new other reformed leaders -and they and my opinion of them was completely different than what mine was after I attended, especially of the polity. They are seen as being Episcopal in government – that is what they tell people if you ask, but in reality they are very, very different and that is not really known outside of SGM, even by people that are connected with them.
Jeremy:
Take a look at Mark Dever’s “Nine Marks of a healthy church” and see his justifications for a biblical foundation for congregational government.
Also, in a tape series by John Piper on Biblical Eldership, Piper makes the point that there is no express Biblical justification for any of the common forms of church polity (Presbyterian, Espiscopal or Congregationalism) but all three can be more or less justified in some form.
Having said that, I would agree that SGM’s polity is not unbiblical per se. Rather SGM has chosen the most conservative definition of the term “Elder” (limiting that term so it synonamous with the term “pastor’ or more actually accurately vocational pastor) as contrasted with the presbyterian view of having both vocational and non-vocational elders and I believe that SGM chooses this conversation because it provides them with highly centralized and controlled decision making structure. The structure is not wrong but is not helpful to the local church membership because there is no transparency as to how decisions are made
I use the words “centralized and controlled” deliberately here because we need to remember that every word, statement, policy and structure in SGM is very deliberate and calculated and SGM has the polity it has because it has chosen this approach.
We should probably be cautious about claiming that something is or is not “biblical” unless we directly use proof texts from scripture.
Perhaps both Pres and Jeremy could provide examples that support their assertions about the biblicity of their polity?
Martie,
Never been to Tybee, but I’ve heard it is beautiful. I’m in the Atlanta area. The air is crisp, the dogwoods and tulips are blooming, and the grass is starting to green up. That’s one nice thing about GA as compared to FL – seasons. When I see these signs of spring, it turns my heart to the Lord. He makes everything new.
Blessings on your trip!
Re:RT, good point, maybe I should not emphatically state that congregational involvement is biblical without proof – I think if proof is warranted a good start is Mark Dever’s resources – see http://content.christianity.co....._Notes.pdf
for his notes on mark 9 – biblical government. However I think the bigger issue is that SGM really does not biblically support their church government – perspectives is a start but is very lacking and as RT has enumerated, manipulates quotes to show stuff that the author did not intend. If proof is wanted for my belief in church government one can look to the Westminster confession, and to a lesser extent the books of church order, or the books of discipline, or others For other denominations there are other confessions such as belgic or baptist. If you want more clear information there are numerous systematic theologies that support reformed church government – be it baptist or presbyterian. However I do not know of one that supports the SGM model, and the only systematic theology the denomination recommends has a section on church government that contradicts what they believe, and so it has been removed from their version. How can one claim that the SGM church polity is Biblical when they themselves have not laid it out nor can point to anything that does, we don’t really know what their basis is. Their only laying of it out is very weak and says itself that it does not fully explain it.
Not to worry. Everything will be fixed, following “The pastor’s Conference: :-)
Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference
(formerly the Leadership Conference)
General-Session Theme
The Pastor’s Priorities
General-Session Speakers
Monday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Charge
Tuesday morning
Seminars
Tuesday evening
Jeff Purswell: The Pastor’s Teaching
Wednesday morning
Dave Harvey: The Pastor’s Mission
Jared Mellinger: The Pastor’s Legacy
Wednesday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Leadership
Oh my. The line up for this pastors’ conference is is really scary!
Pres–great answer. Thanks!
I have to add my endorsement to Presbyterian’s recommendation of Mark Dever’s material on congregational authority.
For the issue of whether the office of apostle is for today, a lot of good stuff has been written by none other than Wayne Grudem. In particular, appendix A in his work The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today has a great, concise explanation of why he doesn’t believe apostleship is for today, despite his being a continuationist.
Jared Mellinger has been a pastor for how long? And he’s talking about legacy?
I’m scratchin’ my head on that one…
Grudem weighs in on modern day apostles here
What’s interesting is the number of SGM churches that list themselves as “9 Marks” churches on the 9Marks site.
It might be helpful if they clicked on the 9th Mark to see what Dever means. It’s very detailed.
Jared Mellinger has been the senior pastor since October 12, 2008, a whole year and a half. click here
I don’t see how a SG church can sincerely include themselves on the 9Marks site…but I found the one I was looking for.
“The congregation has real authority. It is also true that the Bible presents the local congregation as having the final say in matters of dispute, doctrine, discipline, and membership. The congregation exercises this authority for the maintenance of the Body’s health and for the accountability of the elders.”
I am sure that, to a large degree, that SGM’s inclusion on the 9 Marks website is a function of Mark Dever’s relationship with CJ and I think that we would all agree that CJ can talk a pretty good game and, as a result, Mr. Dever probably thinks that by and large SGM churches are orthodox evangelical churches.
I am sure that Dever has little idea about what happens in the individual SGM churches although perhaps that may be changing since in a post elsewhere on this site Jim did mention some of the reformed “big dogs” are starting to ask questions about SGM.
Bree:
Find the comment in “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church” about congregational government protecting the congregation from the pastor’s “petty tyrannies.” I recently re-read this book a few weeks ago and when I read that phrase I was reminded of all the stories shared here about people suffering under SGM’s “petty tyrannies” and that Mark Dever has succinctly albeit unknowingly diagnosed the what many of us to beleive to be the central cause of many of the problems in SGM.
Former-well said in your 6:02
I am confused–how does a 30 year old man, with only a couple of years of ministry under his belt, succeed as a senior pastor or a large church, with a large staff of much older men under him?
In SGM, does the senior pastor preach only, or does he lead the staff?
I’d love to sit in on those staff meetings.
Is Mr. Mellinger married to someone important?
Younger men are easier to mold into your own image…and they’re more likely to be ideaologically zealous. They also do a better job of getting cool young professionals who tithe well in the door. Thus Mellinger, Harris, and CJ’s designs on Driscoll…