The following was sent to me by a friend of Chesapeake. I echo the author’s request to “please fill in details or make changes as you see fit”, as everything I know about Chesapeake is new to me, as the flood of emails regarded Chesapeake began just before Christmas. The post below is not a definitive statement of fact from your host, but seems to verify much of what I’ve been told. Again, I invite you to fill in the blanks.
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A very interesting picture begins to emerge as we take a closer look at the history of Sovereign Grace Church, Chesapeake, VA. For some, it may seem like a picture of change, chaos, and confusion. For others, it’s just part of the well known verbiage, “change is here to stay”. The church has met in many locations including a home, a motel, several schools and now sits at the corner of Centerville Turnpike and Elbow Road. It has been known by several different names including The Harbor, Southside, and currently, Sovereign Grace Church. Taking a closer look, one would have no idea that this church began as a more charismatic church because the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit are hardly noticeable today. In fact the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was changed in 2002 by SGM and the congregation in Chesapeake was never told. Many other changes in doctrine have taken place since SGM turned in a reformed direction and away from the charismatic.
Several questions emerge as we take a closer look. Is it possible that SGCC is a microcosm; a representative of SGM? Are we actually looking through an open window into the inner workings of SGM? Who was responsible for and actually made the decisions that have so impacted this church? Who determined that pastors were gifted and called by God for ministry and then determined that these pastors really weren’t? For some of you reading this, you have more information and maybe corrections to this closer look. Please fill in details or make changes as you see fit…..
*The Beginning: Steve Shank plants the church in VA. Beach/Chesapeake in 1987 and brings a team from the Ohio church including David Bendenilli and Pete Payne who become pastors.
*1997: Steve Shank, Dave Bendenilli, and Pete Payne leave VA. Beach/Chesapeake to plant a church in Denver leaving only 1 pastor, John Butler behind. Chris DeLogos goes to the Pastors’ College (PC) and becomes a pastor in Denver. A very large part of the Chesapeake church population go on this church plant leaving behind a grieving congregation.
*A decision is made by SGM that they have made a mistake and will never again take so many of the pastors from 1 church to plant another church.
* Eric Hughes, Brian Wasko, Tim Hulme, and Brett Campbell are brought on as pastors and join John Butler in Chesapeake.
* After several years, Brian Wasko is forced to step down as it is determined that he is really not gifted to be a pastor after all. This happens even though Wasko has a pastor’s heart of love and compassion, is loved by the people, and has an effective, vibrant and Spirit led youth ministry. The congregation grieves over this loss.
* Keith Breault is sent to the PC and becomes a Chesapeake pastor.
* Aaron Anderson and Ray Cagle are sent from Chesapeake to the PC and brought back as pastors on staff.
* John Butler leaves SGC Chesapeake and becomes sr. pastor of the struggling Atlanta church. Aaron Anderson goes to Atlanta with Butler.
*Ray Cagle was forced to step down for lack of pastoral giftings. This man who holds a counseling degree and has a pastor’s heart of love and compassion would have been an excellent addition and very needed man for this church.
*Keith Breault is named sr. pastor of Chesapeake church and takes over from Butler.
*Trevor Haynes who had previously pastored in 2 SGM churches and who had been a friend of Breault’s in the PC, leaves PA church to pastor in Chesapeake.
* Chad Rogers is sent to PC from Chesapeake then becomes a pastor in the Atlanta church.
*Eric Hughes basically runs the church for 1 ½ years due to Keith Breault’s illness, family illness, and Father’s death.
*Eric Hughes becomes Executive Pastor.
*John Butler steps down as sr. pastor of the Atlanta church and Aaron Anderson becomes sr. pastor.
* Chris Mangold is sent to PC and then added to Chesapeake pastoral staff.
*Tim Hulme who had been an effective and loved pastor for 10 years was forced to step down after it was decided that he was not called and did not have pastoral giftings. Hulme was the pastor most gifted in evangelism and responsible for evangelism outreaches such as Alpha. This was a total surprise to the congregation and totally unexpected.
*After going to the PC, Kirk Alexander joins the Chesapeake pastoral staff with an emphasis on evangelism.
*After pastoring for over 11 years, Eric Hughes is sent to the PC on short notice with definite plans to plant a church, possibly in Charlottesville, VA.
*Keith Breault and pastors in Chesapeake plan to announce new doctrine on separation to the congregation after imposing this doctrine on 3 women in the church and teaching it in the New Members’ class. Two of the women had quietly left the church under the threat of church discipline in the summer of ‘08.
*”Esther” asks for help from Gene Emerson and other apostolic leaders including CJ to no avail.
*The “3” couples become more actively involved in “Esther’s” case.
* “Esther” is threatened with church discipline. Esther leaves the church and sends her withdrawal letter to the Chesapeake pastors as well as CJ and other apostles.
*November 9, 2008 The 3 couples meet with Keith Breault and Brett Campbell. All pastors were asked to come.
*Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, Trevor Haynes, and Chris Mangold apologize to “Esther” at a meeting of approximately 50 people (not the entire membership) for abusive counseling and neglect.
*December 16, 2008 The 3 couples meet with pastors again after hearing nothing from the pastors regarding the issues previously brought forth. The 3 couples recommend that Keith Breault, Brett Campbell and Trevor Haynes step down as pastors. Gene Emerson and finance team attend this meeting.
* December 20, 2008 A hastily-organized meeting was called by Gene Emerson and the SGCC pastors with approximately 60 members of the church. At this meeting the three couples were admonished and had pseudo-church discipline administered to them (even though they were not in attendance). Two of those admonished were fired from care group leadership.
*January 21, 2009 Keith Breault and his team apologize to the “3 couples” for some of the issues that they brought forward in the previous meetings.
*January 25, 2009 Family Meeting called. Keith Breault reads a letter of apology to the congregation for some of the issues brought forward by the “3 couples”. Keith Breault announces that Eric Hughes is at the meeting because Breault asked him to come down from the PC to lead worship for the meeting.
*Folks begin leaving Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake.
*January 25, 2009 in Denver during the Sunday morning meeting, Steve Shank surprisingly announces that David Bendenelli is retiring. (During the fall of 08, Chris DeLogos suddenly and totally unexpected stepped down as pastor in Denver and headed to Richmond and Kingsway Community Church under Gene Emerson.)
*January 25, 2009 in Gilbert, Arizona, the young sr. pastor apologizes to the congregation.
*March 29, 2009 in Chesapeake, Keith Breault and Eric Hughes announce that Hughes will become sr. pastor of Chesapeake and Breault will go to Kingsway Community Church under Gene Emerson for a church planting internship. Breault states that this change has nothing to do with the trials and issues of the last months.
** The term “forced to step down” has been used in this chronological history but the word fired is probably a more accurate word to describe the situations. There was never any prior warning or discussion within the church body before these decisions were made, announced, and the men removed from pastoral leadership. The question again: who was making these decisions that led to confusion, chaos and destruction within this church?
Maybe, just maybe, now is the time for healing and restoration and the time for God to be glorified through His Body. A new sr. pastor who is a very godly and extremely gifted pastor, is not enough to “fix” this church, however. Restoration will not happen unless much badly needed reform takes place within SGM as a whole. There must be a total overhaul in the polity of SGM and let’s face the truth: SGM needs a new heart, a heart of love for Jesus Christ and for His people. Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake belongs to God and no man or movement. God will not be mocked!
The Holy Spirit inspired me with a verse as soon as I finished reading this post.
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
What a contrast to SGM’s motto “Change is here to stay.” The constant change that occurs in Sovereign Grace Ministries is a clear indication to me that this “family of churches” is NOT operating according to God’s will.
Wow. It is interesting to see everything put together like this. It’s so sad to see how many pastors were “retired/fired” for lack of gifting. You would think with all of the care they take in selecting men to go to the PC and then the 9 months there, that they would be able to figure out if they were adaquately gifted and called.
I don’t get what the Gilbert apology has to do with the Chesapeake timeline though…
Wanda,
How’Dee,
You said:
“The constant change that occurs in Sovereign Grace Ministries is a clear indication to me that this “family of churches” is NOT operating according to God’s will.”
Doze dat mean they are “Coin” operated now?
Or is it juz “batteries not included” ? >snicker<
Hahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Wow. Very helpful and concise.
This church organization sounds like IBM (which used to mean “I’ve been moved”, because IBM would move its people/managers around the country on a regular basis). SGM looks/acts more like a cooperation than a church.
Watching Closer: I’m not sure what Gilbert Ariz. had to do with Chesapeake either but the fact that 3 SGM meetings all occurred on Jan. 25th and were each very significant was just too much of a “coincidence” not to mention. From what I have heard the Gilbert, Ariz. apology sounded an awful lot like the Chesapeake apology.
Hey ya’ll,
I just thought I would stop over for a visit.
My buddy is doing well and ready to move on, Praise God!
I appreciate seeing the pieces fitting together. And from an outsider, it looks like a puzzle piece with the 25th could be mentioned. . . The Gilbert church is Steve Shank’s home church. Which means that Steve Shank’s office is in the office suite with the Gilbert Pastors. Ya’ll think Steve Shank is involved in any decisions in Gilbert on a winter’s day?
Well, when my buddy told me that Steve wasn’t at theirFamily Meeting in Gilbert in February, well, I kinda started putting some pieces together too. It’s not the Twilight Zone anymore, it’s the Wizard of Oz. And the man behind the curtain deal is real.
Cowboy,
How’dee Partner!
Great post!
Yous said:
“Well, when my buddy told me that Steve wasn’t at their Family Meeting in Gilbert in February, well, I kinda started putting some pieces together too. It’s not the Twilight Zone anymore, it’s the Wizard of Oz. And the man behind the curtain deal is real.”
***
I’ze hears dat dag blast’ed toon again… he he
“Because, Because, Because, Because, Because!”…
“The wonderful things he does!”… >snicker<
dat da da da da da da…
Ahem… Not!
Hahahahahahahaha!!!
In a little,
Sopy
And what exactly is an Executive Pastor anyway? (Referring to Eric Hughes???)
Greener:
The title “Executive Pastor” means that the person is responsible for the oversight of the day to day operations of the church (both pastorally and administratively) so that the senior pastor is free to focus on sermon preparation and the overall strategic direction of the church. Think of the EP as the chief operating officer of the church.
I have seen other large churches use this term so it is not unique to SGM.
Great to see “the church” adopt business models while stating, “The Scriptures are the authoritative and normative rule and guide of all Christian life, practice, and doctrine. They are totally sufficient and must not be added to, superseded, or changed by later tradition, extra-biblical revelation, or worldly wisdom.”
*Keith Breault and pastors in Chesapeake plan to announce new doctrine on separation to the congregation after imposing this doctrine on 3 women in the church and teaching it in the New Members’ class.
What was the new doctrine?
I seem to remember it being reported, that they (the pastors) told these women that they were not to separate from their husbands (physically), even in the face of physical and verbal abuse, and must continue to submit to their husbands authority (even though they were clearly abusing their authority) and continue living under the same roof with their abusive husbands. I believe young children were also in these families and had also been threatened physically by their fathers.
The women were also counseled that they would fall under church discipline if they chose separation and would receive no support from the church and it’s pastors.
Please feel free to correct the details if I’ve not remembered them correctly.
peace-mm
That’s about it, MM.:/
Must be a pendulum swing over at CLC. I know of a woman who has received Pastoral “blessings” with her divorce. No attempts at reconciliation. Even helped with her finances. Guess it depends on who you are , and what the claim is.
music man said:
“I seem to remember it being reported, that they (the pastors) told these women that they were not to separate from their husbands (physically), even in the face of physical and verbal abuse, and must continue to submit to their husbands authority (even though they were clearly abusing their authority) and continue living under the same roof with their abusive husbands. I believe young children were also in these families and had also been threatened physically by their fathers.”
I am sure that the (new) leadership of SGM Chesapeake will boldly stand up and admit how wrong they were in the past with what they did.
Unfortunately I am reasonably sure that the leadership will do no such thing. They will change their policty but refuce to admit that what they have done in the past was wrong. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.
PFR–
In a more ‘normal’ church, there would be pastoral acceptance in the case of adultery. Was that the case in the CLC situation?
How absurd to force a woman to stay in an unsafe home. Would CJ and the other apostle/pope/cardinals force their daughters to do the same?
But, and far more tragically, why would a woman ‘obey’ her pastor in this situation. While you are in the bubble, it probably seems normal to do so, but believe me, that is bizarre.
Sisters in Christ, if you or your children are unsafe in your home, leave it or get a restraining order against your husband. Your pastors are great for counsel, but they are not despots to be obeyed blindly.
Consult a trained counselor who will hold out truth to you–someone who is a Jesus follower but also is trained to counsel.
RT said at
“Sisters in Christ, if you or your children are unsafe in your home, leave it or get a restraining order against your husband. Your pastors are great for counsel, but they are not despots to be obeyed blindly.”
This issue (among several others) was at the heart of the recent Chesapeake “trial”. Thankfully, this new doctrine was abandoned (at least for now) and the pastors have acknowledged their error. This issue was also addressed in the “Get-Well Plan” put forth in an effort to address some of the critical issues facing the Chesapeake church.
RT-
The guy had issues with church, the wife did not. The Pastors intervened
with the “Husband is not doing well” and questioned his salvation based on his lack of desire for CLC. Looks like the Pastors got “Too” involved with asking for reports from the wife in regard to the husband. Encouraged the wife to separate the finances and make it known that in a choice between the church, or the marriage, “God (the church)” would come first. Went downhill in a very bad way from there.
It is too sad that pastors would try to force a woman and her children to stay in a physically abusive situation, by using “God” as the enforcer. Even our civil laws are more compassionate than this!
The situation at CLC is an abomination. The pastors influence over the wife apparently did not include an encouragement to keep this quiet. She let the genie out of the bottle to the extent that the details have made it to my inbox.
Gentlemen, when all is said and done in this case, I’m going to make you famous.
I promise.
CJ, your pastors in your home church appear to have destroyed a marriage. You can stop this.
You know my number…
It’s never been clear what was motivating the SGCC pastors to force women and children to stay in abusive marriages and homes. They reinterpreted Scripture, specifically 1 Corinthians 7:10 and determined that the word separation means the same thing as divorce. Therefore, they said that Scripture never allows for separation. It is clear in this passage that Paul is encouraging women not to separate but he says “if she does…” They believed that the women would be relieved of their suffering at such time that God removed the abusive husband from the home. Until such time as this happened (and only by God’s hand) the wife and children were to remain in the home with the abusive husband. Remember Esther’s story. Here was a woman who had lived in a very sad and tragic marriage for over 30 years and continued to love her husband. Things had gotten so bad that her 12 year old son was crying to her, “Mom, you’ve got to do something. I am in danger!” And yet, when she told the pastors that she must separate, they threatened her with church discipline.
I grew up in the Mormon church–and marriage was more than holy–it was your ticket to your own planet! But it was not holy when one spouse wanted to leave the church: divorce is quite frequent, with the moms (usually the ones staying with the church and getting all the sympathy, ‘ooohhhhhh, he is leaving THE CHURCH? We never really liked him anyway….’) getting the kids and getting remarried to a properly devout Mormon quickly.
Adultery can be forgiven in a cult.
But a break with the cult is unforgiveable treason and the sinner must be expelled, no matter what the Bible/Book of Mormon says about marriage.
Blecch. Thanks for the information, Scott et al.
Fred–your post cuts to the heart of the problem: polity.
In another church, one can appeal to the next higher level to avoid church discipline. there is no where to go in SGM.
Jim said: Gentlemen, when all is said and done in this case, I’m going to make you famous. I promise.
The terrible truths and accounts of reprehensible behaviors and actions concerning SGM must come out. Matthew 10:26 says, “Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” God is the one uncovering what has been hidden. This is His work and He is choosing to use men and women such as we find here on this blog to be His hands and feet.
There are many of you reading this blog who have stories of your own to tell. People need to hear what you have to say because the more that is uncovered, the greater the chances for reform in the movement. Hopefully, this will stop the abuses and fewer people will be hurt and led astray.
RT, Esther called upon Gene Ermerson, CJ, Dave Harvey, Steve Shank for help but they would not get involved.
Right–that is because no laypeople (you know, those schlubs in the pews, those unwashed untrained masses of flesh) in SGM are ever involved in elder selection or pastor selection, and there is no group of people that holds CJ accountable.
Stinks.
Fred is right. Stop hiding, you guys. Take this chance to TRULY speak the truth, in love. Speaking the truth in love doesn’t mean correcting someone about their brastraps or their kids’ iPods.
The only time Jesus threw stuff around is when hypocrits and money sellers were hurting the Church, the Bride, the People of God. He knelt beside the adulterous woman, after sending her attackers away, and urged her to go and sin no more.
Fred-if we do anything well, it’s exposure. I’m currently sitting on stories from across the country, waiting on documentation or further verification, or hoping that situations end in a God honoring fashion. There’s other situations in which I need to protect the source, as the data could easily be traced back to an individual. What will eventually happen in many of these cases is that the people involved will decide that they have nothing left to lose, or, as in the case of the Chesapeake “three couples”, the participants will choose to fear God rather than man. I say all of that to say, there is more to come, unfortunately. The steps that some pastors take to “protect the church” are clearly measures to protect their butts. Fortunately, this tactic will backfire on many of them.
I’d encourage these gentlemen to study Watergate, in which the cover up turned out to have far greater consequences than the original crime.
Some who give “oversight” in SGM are so good at saying, “oh my goodness, I’m so sorry, I had no idea.” A good portion of the sheep are tired of this response, as it is THE JOB these gentlemen to know what’s going on in the lives and churches of those they give “oversight” to.
Of course, we could define oversight in two ways….
Does one of those ways start with a “C” and end with a “YA?”
Well, comfort yourself, SGM. Maybe a really cool movie will be made about SGMgate one day.
Jim-
I’m glad in one sense that these stories are coming to light-they need to-indeed, scripture promises that they will be revealed.
What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God .
I knew many before they were Christians or when they were backslidden and living with their girlfriends. Now it seems they’ve turned from the grace they were given and are legalistic overlords-it breaks my heart that these dear people are hurting others and forgetting the golden rule….
If you were saved in Young Life…remeber and return to the grace they gave you in Jesus. Laugh again, live again…
If you were saved in college by Campus Crusade, Inter Varsity, or another college ministry….remember, and return to the Jesus who washed away your sins and stop lording it over others.
If you were backslidden, and a Christian friend showed you the love of God, despite your condition…remember and return to the unconditional love you were shown.
Repent….and be free again to love God and others without fear, without condemnation, without all the image building and self focused worship that has ensnared you. Repent…the love of the Father is still there for you.
Musicman:
Well said; Repentance embraced by returning to one’s first love.
Thank you.
~jw
What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God .
We know of some old friends that are on staff. They have seven children. The risk involved in not “devoting” themselves to SGM would be, well, a shanking. It would take much courage and faith to disagree with the direction of SGM for couples like this, whose very livelihood has depended on the organization for so many years. I suppose it is possible to enter the secular work place but, these days, how feesable would that be?
Some of the bonds that hold people in SGM are financial…
Pk-
Yes-return to your first love…..
Canary-
I hear you-especially if you have a family to provide for-the stakes become quite high.
But I wonder if 20 years from now, when the kids are grown, what will their family relations look like? Will their devotion to SG and the emotional train wrecks that they leave in their wake because of it-will it be worth all the accolades and job security that they have today? I really doubt it…It’s not a dress rehearsal folks. A few more years and those kids are grown. I just ache to think of the heartbreak that they will reap if they keep down this path of following man-made laws that nullify the Love of God.
I’d rather work at McDonalds selling fast food and squeezing into a tiny town home with my family than living in Stepford….
I’m starting to ramble-but my heart does ache for these folks. To quote Paul “You were running a good race-who cut in on you?”
peace-mm
Musicman–excellent. Why do we lose our wonder as we “grow?” Is this what Jesus meant when he warned us to be like children?
It is scary to be on staff–all of a sudden, your ‘daily bread’ is connected to your place of worship, and it all becomes a tangle: you forget who is really supplying the bread each day.
It is scary to be on staff–all of a sudden, your ‘daily bread’ is connected to your place of worship, and it all becomes a tangle: you forget who is really supplying the bread each day.
I imagine it would be very scary. No sense of “job security” if you are a paid leader. Today, you have the gift to lead. Tomorrow, you might not…
MusicMan said: I’m glad in one sense that these stories are coming to light-they need to-indeed, scripture promises that they will be revealed. What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God.
Yes it is so very sad that so many of our friends are on staff, however and this is a big however. When we consider that real, live human beings; men, women and children; have been and are being abused by some of these very same friends on staff within SGM, then our emotions must change from one of sadness for our friends on staff to sadness and righteous anger over our friends in the flock who have been abused and led astray. I have great love for my former pastors and I am truly sad that they have gotten so far off track and are in such great bondage. I am truly sorry that Keith Breault’s actions and lack of leadership caused him to lose his position as sr. pastor of SGCC. Again, however: I truly believed that my pastors were godly men. I trusted them with my very life. Then I found out that these very men who were my friends were abusing and misleading my friends in the flock. I found out that they are not godly men and they cannot be trusted. My words sound strong to many of you but there is much at stake here. If this had all happened in just one church, then we would say, oh, ok. Change the pastoral staff and all will be well. But no. These actions are happening in SGM churches all over the country. The problem begins at the top and flows down the chain of command. The top must be fixed. Too many lives have been badly damaged, too many marriages have been destroyed, too many are iving lives of defeat rather than victory because of a distorted Gospel…… yes, all of it is so very sad!
Our God reigns and He is bringing forth healing, restoration, and redemption.
He is doing this but the question remains: will it be within the walls of SGM or outside the walls?
PS To the folks in Chesapeake: when is Gene Emerson coming to report back on his investigation of the pastors? Word has it that he promised an investigation.
Fred-
I agree…my heart goes out first to those who have been abused. I’m sorry if I seemed to minimize this by my posts.
peace-mm
When we left PDI OR SGM, it was my marriage or the church. I knew that if I documented against my husband I could have gotten him kicked out of the house. Document, document, document we were told——-against any one that needed correction and would not submit to authority.
If you weren’t buying into everything that was spoken from the front, then you weren’t trusted or even welcomed. And I heard that spoken by a senior pastor from the fairfax church when a lady who didn’t homeschool, said she wasn’t going to since she had to work to make ends meet, she was told she should find another church where she felt more comfortable. I did not attend that church, just heard that tape of the sermon that day because I didn’t believe the senior pastor would say that—but he did.
I decided that I would trust God for my marriage and family, and not the church or the leaders. Plus HE told me to come out of there, so eventually I did. I do not regret it.
God is the only One we can rely on, Who is faithful, and Who will never let us down. Once we learn that then things seem to fall into place. And I think that’s the message He tries to teach us if we are willing to learn-that HE is more than enough for us.
Old-Timer-
That mentality still prevails. It is a shame that SGM would put their desire for reputation, and devotion to the “Church” over a marriage. To profess to be men of God, while systematically driving a wedge between a husband and wife is beyond reprehensible.
Matthew 19:6
So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
Does anyone know what happened to Scott Hawkins from the Sarasota church? He left our church New life Community in FL to go to pastors college and then was given Sarasota church….He stepped down according to what someone told me but I have no details…His wife was a friend of my daughters in high school and we are trying to find her…….
Although I posted this in another area, I thought I better post it here, just so you know things will definitely be getting better following this conference.
Not to worry. Everything will be fixed, following “The pastor’s Conference: :-)
Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference
(formerly the Leadership Conference)
General-Session Theme
The Pastor’s Priorities
General-Session Speakers
Monday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Charge
Tuesday morning
Seminars
Tuesday evening
Jeff Purswell: The Pastor’s Teaching
Wednesday morning
Dave Harvey: The Pastor’s Mission
Jared Mellinger: The Pastor’s Legacy
Wednesday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Leadership
Musicman: We are definitely on the same page!
Martie: Scott was ‘encouraged’ to come to the realization that he shouldn’t be Pastor. They are still living in Bradenton.
Still-
I think this is your first visit? If so, welcome!
I’ve already written a Bradenton post-just waiting for the right time to post.
Wow. I came across this site because I was doing a Google search on a childhood friend, Keith Breault. I haven’t seen or spoken to him since the mid-80′s, and I’m not even sure if this is the same person, but the picture looks like it could be him. Our fathers were stationed together in the AF. Again, I don’t know if this is the same Keith.
I grew up Catholic, however I never felt a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Thankfully I came across a non-denominational Christian church which put God at the center of my life. Since God has become that focal point, I was extremely excited to see Keith could possibly be a pastor. After reading these posts, however, I’m not so excited anymore.
I did want to add my two-cents on one thing, though.
Canary said: We know of some old friends that are on staff. They have seven children. The risk involved in not “devoting” themselves to SGM would be, well, a shanking. It would take much courage and faith to disagree with the direction of SGM for couples like this, whose very livelihood has depended on the organization for so many years. I suppose it is possible to enter the secular work place but, these days, how feesable would that be?
Some of the bonds that hold people in SGM are financial…
God does not require a strong economy to take care of His faithful children–I am living proof of that. I have been laid of twice within the past 16 months, and both times God has proven Himself faithful. I have a family of three (with another on the way) and my wife doesn’t work. We continued to tithe off my severance settlements, the few unemployment checks I received, and even made significant offerings when led by the Holy Spirit. We didn’t have to put anything on credit or take out any loans. Both times I received new jobs before my finances ran out, and both times my income increased. Although I couldn’t see His plan, I followed His will, remained faithful to Him, and held on to His promises. He tells us in Jeremiah 29:11:
“For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Hopefully your friends can get out of the boat and trust God, if that’s the direction He is leading them.
God bless.
VLTORN,
Good words. Thank you!
Thank you VLTORN for the excellent words of Truth! Truth is always so encouraging. I am sure that you are very disappointed in all that you have read here. We here at the Refuge are very disappointed in all that has happened as well but we know that our REDEEMER LIVES! We know that He is working all things for good and we continue praying for the leaders, pastors, and members of SGM. God is revealing much that has been hidden and He is doing a good work! It has been a painful work but it is already bearing much good fruit. Continue to pray for your old friend Keith. It probably is the same Keith Breault because his father was in the AF.
Canary, I was getting worried about you cause I hadn’t seen your name on here for awhile. Hope you are doing well.
Thank you Still … I will look them up in Bradenton…. Does it appear that several pastors have been asked to step down lately? I have been out of the loop of happenings at SGM for about 3 years…. I can’t say I miss it….
Just catching up on the threads – you missed a few big points from the early history of the church –
1991 (I think) - Mike Curtis decides to “step out of day to day leadership of the youth group” and Brian Wasko placed in charge
and the biggie:
1993 (I think) Bob Hughes (Eric Hughes’s Dad), “decides” to “go model the kingdom of God by starting his own business”, Dave Bendinelli becomes Pastor
Fred,
Thanks for missing me! I’m still checking in from time to time, but have been pretty busy, and struggling with some health issues. I’m still reading, though!
Canary, hope you are feeling better and that it is not anything serious. Love you.
Thanks, Fred. Nothing serious, just chronic. Happy Easter! It snowed here on our Easter, all day long. We got five or six inches. Brrrrr…..
I hope everyone had a wonderful (and warmer) Easter Sunday.
The current set of pastors at SGChes are incompetent. Don’t expect anything good to come from those guys. They couldn’t make good even if they wanted to, because they’re clueless. And why are they clueless ? Like I started out, they’re incompetent as pastors. They’re not well trained, not committed to God, and are enslaved to some very bad SGM politics. They’re like bad or corrupt politicians scrambling to keep their jobs, and nothing more. Lots of people still like them, but only because they like them, not because they’re good pastors.
Millertime–
So good to hear from you!
I have heard many good reports of pastors in SGM who love God intensely, and are committed to their flock, committed to teaching and training them up to fullness in Christ. I’d have to disagree with your blanket statement about them not being committed to God.
I definitely agree with you that they are under-trained, that’s for sure. I think they are probably clueless to some extent, too, since they live in the bubble to such an extent that they have little idea what goes on in the rest of Christendom.
Freedom,
For clarification purposes, Bob Hughes stepped down because he wanted to be more Dad than Pastor. He didnt feel called to be a pastor and felt like he needed to be home and with his family. Integrity happened a few years later as he bought the business from his son.
Just FYI
I have to agree with RT that we cannot make a blanket statment like, all SGM Pastors are not comitted to God. We cannot know their hearts like that.
Been Gone for a while and trying to catch up!
Millertime said: The current set of pastors at SGChes are incompetent. Don’t expect anything good to come from those guys. This is both correct and incorrect. Yes, I believe they are incompetant; however, I wouldn’t go so far as to say, don’t expect anything good to come from these guys. I believe they do have genuine hearts, but they have been corrupted by poor SGM policy. In Oz, When the Wizard was accused by Dorothy of being a very bad man, he answered, “No, I’m not a bad man, I’m a very good man, I’m just a bad wizard!” That is how I see most of these men. Keith Breault, for example, I believe, is a good man, as is Eric Hughes, and others. I believe, though, they have been so blinded by SGM indctrination, that they are just poor pastors, and need to come to this realization and step aside. (This characterzation being based on their handling of many of the situations at SGCChes).
Friends,
I didn’t say all SGM pastors are poorly trained and not committed to God, I said SGChes pastors were poorly trained and not committed to God. Yes, I think they are committed, but not necessarily to God, because of all the screw ups for years. If a pastor is hearing from God, he’s not going to consistently and predictably hurt so many people over the course of a decade, like has been going on at SGChes for many years. And there’s still plenty disfunction and abuse still under the covers, going way back for years, that hasn’t been published. If these guys were committed to God, they wouldn’t choose to do evil when a clear path of good was available to them. So that’s why I say the SGChes pastors are not committed to God. And given the problems up the food chain in SGM in general, I’d say these two characteristics are not exclusive to SGChes.
I have to agree with both Miller and Greener’s posts. The Chesapeake pastors were poorly trained but more than that, they have not walked in a manner worthy of the Gospel. Somehow, they got way off the track of serving God first, worshipping Him, and following Holy Spirit. They also lost track of who they are in Christ. They are not God, nor do they stand in place of God in the congregation’s lives. They lost their heart for God and for His people.
If you discussed this with Chesapeake’s pastors, they would say that of course they were/are committed to God. As God revealed circumstances and situations in the Chesapeake church, a pattern began to emerge that they had in fact lost sight of God and lost sight of the Gospel. It seemed as though their hearts had become very hard because of legalism and their own sin. It also appeared that these pastors actually replaced God with CJ, et al, SG Ministries as a whole and with their own agendas. Of course we cannot judge their hearts, only God can judge hearts but we can judge the fruit. There is much evidence of bad fruit coming from SG Chesapeake as well as other SG churches.
Mark of the lion – yes, I forgot about that ”be a better dad” spin put on it, but the “model the kingdon of god in the business world” was out there too at the time – I didn’t even mention the business or how the business was aquired. I believe the term used on this board would be “shanked” as shank was sr pastor at the time.
Actually Bob “bought” Integrity the same year that he “resigned” from being a pastor, both in 1993. From what I remember he stepped down from his pastoral role because he wanted to be more effective for the gospel, he didn’t like being behind a desk.
I was wondering when Integrity Auto Specialists and it’s web would come into the Chesapeake conversation.
Long Time, Would you explain what you mean about the web of Integrity Auto Specialists and how it plays into this whole Chesapeake deal? Thanks. It would be helpful.
Integrity plays only into the Chesapeake deal because the company is based out of that church. From what I’ve seen and heard they use the same tactics as SGM. I heard a story once where some gentlemen disagreed with a policy change that the company was making and the management team confronted them with the “Humility” book by CJ. Now as a company I think that they can make all of the changes that they want to, just don’t use scripture as a weapon against men who are trying to provide for their families. Same lingo and manipulation as SGM. I’ve had friends walk away from that company and they’ve been shunned. It’s almost a little church inside of a church. Weird.
Long Time, One other question if you don’t mind. Was Bob Hughes “shanked” or was the previous owner of Integrity “shanked”? Thanks so much for answering my questions.
Sorry Fred I really don’t know.
Thanks Long Time!
The real reason that he is no longer a pastor is out there, it was a shanking
Does anyone know the roots of Integrity?
There was reconditioning company called the Dye team that came out of Damascus Christian
in the mid 1980′s. A lot of these reconditioning companies were spin off’s or breaks from the old Dye Team. (Bill Woodrow, pastor of Damascus Christian, was the owner. All of the employees were Damascus Christian. members.)
Keneth Moresco oversaw some of the “resolution” when Damascus Christian finally folded.
I know that remnants of this company exist and survive at CLC.
All:
I know Bob Hughes a little bit and I must say the last few posts are very enlightening. I had no idea he was tossed from being a pastor. I thought he had voluntarily made a move to go to the marketplace ( more SGM lingo). I do know this that when Bob was still a pastor he was the person in SGM responsible for overseeing the e-teams and then when he ceased being a pastor it seemed that SGM’s commitment to e-teams also ceased. Does anyone know if there a philosophical difference between Bob and Shank concerning missions that led to Bob’s departure from the SGCC pastoral team?
Formersgmer – the truth is out there, that is not it. I am not at liberty to post the truth…..
Freedom–just wanted to say I find that hysterical:
Freedom is not at liberty to post the truth.
Totally understand, totally agree, but still got a laugh out of your note.
Freedom said,
“I am not at liberty to post the truth”
That is the funniest, yet saddest, statement I have read in a long time.
Probably a good idea to leave the Bob H thing alone.
Everything doesn’t belong on the internet.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.”
Isn’t it wonderful that as we walk in the Spirit, we have self-control (and also discernment) to speak or not to speak? This is definitely evidence of true FREEDOM AND LIBERTY in the Spirit. This blog has never been about gossip or trying to destroy anyone. It has always been for the purpose of exposing deception and cover-ups, wrong doctrine, dangerous polity, etc. It has existed for the purpose of bringing forth truth, healing and restoration (including restoration of SGM which can only happen if deception and wrongdoing are exposed, confessed and repented for). There are private details of lives that have not been exposed on this blog and should never be unless those directly involved want to do so. Thank you Freedom and Jim for maintaining the integrity of this blog!
I would like to add that the pastors in Chesapeake (and maybe other SGM churches) expected that you would tell them private information on your friends. Sadly, many did just that and then the pastor would share the information with the other pastors. Also, the pastors admitted that they shared confidential information that the “sheep” were discussing in their counseling sessions with all the other pastors. This was done without the knowledge and permission of the “sheep”. This was pure gossip and was just wrong.
P.S. It is widely known that in some cases where pastors were forced to step down, there has been great deception and yes, actually lying about the reasons. Even though it is not necessary for specific details to be revealed in certain cases because to do so could/ would be damaging and destructive to individuals, spouses or families, the pastors should never lie. You can be honest without exposing unnecessary (damaging, destructive) details and specifics. This lying has happened over and over again with SGM pastors and is quite disturbing. Lying is never all right and as we know is an abomination to the Lord. The question remains: has this happened in Chesapeake with the flip-flop of Keith Breault and Eric Hughes? What about in Denver with Dave Bendenelli and others???
Fred said at –
“It is widely known that in some cases where pastors were forced to step down, there has been great deception and yes, actually lying about the reasons.”
Time for a pop-quiz
True or False………………….
A) It is sometimes OK to lie (or at least not tell the complete truth) if it is done to protect the church?
B) The ends justify the means in not telling the truth concerning reasons for pastoral staff changes?
C) The “sheep” have a right to know the truth, even if it may cause distress among the “flock” and cast the pastor(s) in a bad light?
so many questions…….so little time
N.S.L.B.
What Jim, no chilled Grape Nehi, in the fridge? >snicker<
Hahahahahahah!
Bummer, Dude!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Quizz,
I lifted this: –written on Mr. Mahaney’s living room mirror: (he he)
“! hcruhc eht tcetorp” >snicker<
Hahahahahahahahah!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Regarding Fred’s comment that “This lying has happened over and over again with SGM pastors and is quite disturbing”, I agree with him. These guys can’t really be trusted to do the right thing. Before the recent revelations, several years ago, I brought some of these same concerns before them, and they were never sincere, honest, or forthcoming about any of it, nor did they ever do what was good and right when a more deceptive or evil path was available to them. Their reasoning for this deception, and sometimes, downright evil, was controlled by their internal SGM politics, as it still is at this very moment, and will continue into the forseeable future, which is why I don’t believe real change is possible as long as any of them remain in their positions. They’re position and job-security lovers, they’re not really concerned about God or God’s people. Unfortunatly, there are still LOTS of pastor-lovers and people-worshippers attending that church, and they won’t see the light until someone screws with them personally. And for those parishioners, for some of them, it’s just a matter of time, unless their lives continue to go smoothly and they never have to enlist the “help” of these men. But as long as these issues don’t affect them personally, they’re willing to turn their heads the other way. I know, so many of them have told this to me, in so many words. I liken it to Germans who knew Jews were being executed, but did nothing, or like a person lying in the street after being hit by a car, and everyone just dives on by without stopping to help. It’s really incredible, and it’s still a very, very sad and disturbing situation. It’s sick, actually.
Well, the Rahab issue comes up…doesn’t it?
Also, Proverbs is replete with cautions about tongue control.
Just because something is true doesn’t make it something that needs to be known.
This is especially true if there are innocent parties (families, children, other believers) that would be hurt by information being shared.
Thanks for the wisdom, y’all.
Miller: I agree with you completely. I am thankful that you called this what it is – an evil path. Make no mistake, this movement has moved away from God and is on an evil path and it is actually sick. There have been too many cases of abuse, wrong doctrine, bad treatment of women, holding the flock in bondage, harmful polity, etc. across the movement to think otherwise. Those who are choosing to stick their head in the sand and continue to ignore the reality that has been set before them actually become just as guilty as the pastors who are committing the deception and abuse.
RT
I would agree with you that sometimes things don’t need to be known or shared but does one have to lie to do that? Can’t they be vague without lying? Maybe like say we have decided it is appropriate for so and so to step down etc.
Of course if there are true sin issues where the Pastor/Elder continues in sin doesn’t scripture to say to rebuke these elders in the presence of all?
Miller said: “nor did they ever do what was good and right when a more deceptive or evil path was available to them. Their reasoning for this deception, and sometimes, downright evil, was controlled by their internal SGM politics,”
Please, would someone tell me, why have these pastors chosen the deceptive, evil path over and over? These pastors present themselves as godly men and yet their decisions and behavior behind closed doors is anything but godly. I cannot comprehend this.
Fred – good point, we can say what happen was another “shanking” and that the truth was covered up. The Sr Pastor at the time (shank) lied about the real reasons and others kept the lies up. It fits right in with Millertime’s comments that they consistantly choose deception over truth. That is a HUGE issue and a BIG problem and it has been happening since the early days of the movement and is a BIG part of the leadership CULTure.
Millertime – I suddenly feel the urge for a miller lite!
No, deception and lying is never right, it is an offense to Jesus and to the Lawmaker–Jesus reminded us when he was here that not a jot or tiddle has ever been removed from the Law. The good news is that we escape the penalty of our lawbreaking.
I think we are talking about two different scenarios.
What I meant was that it is not always necessary for all details to be told to all people about all moral failings.
If a pastor is removed for a legitimate sin issue, and it would damage his wife and kids or people he has abused for details to be known, then the explanation from the elders (whoops, see–stupid me, I am still in the mindset that elders are representatives of the congregation), anyway, from the elders should be: Pastor XYZ has been removed from ministry as a result of a moral failure. We are putting together a search/pulpit committee (oh crud, there I go again, being used to the thought that a congregation calls their own pastors! Stupid me!), anyway…a search/pulpit committee to look for a man to replace him. We will keep you updated on this search. Please pray.
The congregation, sometimes, does not need all the gory details, but wants them desperately…this is the problem of the congregation. They don’t really need to know who the pastor diddled around with, or how much money he stole from the bank account.
Back again, as PK and Jim and Kris and everybody reminds us, to polity. If SGM was led by men chosen from among the congregation, men trusted and well known, the congregation should trust them in this.
That said, the elders also have the responsibility to ride that pastor for a LONG time. They should not just give him a six month severance and set him loose on the next congregation, as often happens.
And I totally agree with you–a pastor who continues in sin needs to be rebuked by the elders–if he does not repent that needs to be brought to the church.
But what about the 12 year old daughter of a man caught in porn endlessly? The 15 year old son of a closeted homosexual pastor? The wife of a pastor who buys prostitutes? We also need to consider them.
Hard, very very hard.
This is why I rejoice that….I am not an elder!!!!
Another family meeting in Chesapeake! Keith explains the timeline of communication between himself and Eric Hughes concerning the flip flop (just to make sure that there is no confusion and that everyone understands clearly what happened). The part time administrator explains the financial condition of the church – all is good and in the black!
Well, I’m glad Keith’s reading along…
These guys are professional public speakers. You’d think they’d get it right the first time.
You are right Jim! The really sad thing is that you cannot believe a word that KB and his staff speak. There is too much evidence out there that words come out of their mouths with one goal in mind -to make themselves look good. No concern for truth from these guys. Sad for those sitting in the seats who are still believing every word that their pastors are speaking.
Fred-I don’t understand the good people of SGCC. Does no one care enough for Keith to say, “hey, wait a minute… “
I don’t understand either, Jim. The people at SGCC are intelligent folks who, I believe, truly want to please God and glorify Him through their lives. They are terribly misguided and misled and maybe just too comfortable in their bubble. There is great deception and fear within this body and great worship of SGM, leaders and pastors. The people continue to hope that this is the real deal, that things are changing and that their leaders are trustworthy men of God. There is too much evidence to prove that they are not trustworthy men of God. However, just like a vulnerable fish with a fat juicy worm at the end of a hook….they swallow - hook, line and sinker. There is such control and manipulation……
There are some who do see. The question is: why do they stay? I don’t know. But God….
Prayer continues to be the answer. Prayer that God will open blind eyes and remove the veil over their eyes; that they will see clearly and not be manipulated, not be deceived. We pray for mercy for those in SGCC, that O God, You will lift the veil and blinders off their eyes, that they will see clearly and that most of all, they will see You Jesus, full of grace and mercy, full of love, offering to them abundant life and victory over their sins, their lives; that they will experience the REAL Gospel, the REAL JESUS CHRIST!
Fred,
You might know the answer to this…
It’s my understanding Gene publicly called the three couples “enemies of the church.” His own defenders on the blog said “that was an unfortunate statement”.
I think that the three couples received personal apologies from the pastors, and that Gene thanked them publicly.
Did he ever publicly repent of calling them “enemies of the church”?
Defenders, want to weigh in?
In SGM terminology, it is fear of man to not confront the leaders, but the church has effectively been taught not to confront the leaders, because the issue is, of course, rooted in the sinfullness of their own heart. On top of that is the incredible fear of losing your “family” – the church. No one wants to face that, so they rationalize away things that they know are wrong – they overlook the offense and walk blindly on their way and nothing changes and the leaders are empowered to continue in the samewrong behaviour. Fred, thanks for the encouragement to pray.
I will weigh in on comments that ge has made in the past, not about the chesapeake church, however, because I am not familiar with that church situation.
He displayed hypocricy towards the pdi church I attended years ago, by saying how glad he was to attend our church and how he carried us in his heart, any time he visited, while making derogatory comments about the church and the people who attended, to other folks he didn’t know were our friends-and who reported those comments to us.
It’s hard to change your spots.
Jim, it is my understanding that the pastors apologized to the 3 couples for some of the 9 issues (regarding pastoral neglect, abusive counseling, erroneous doctrine, etc., all issues regarding the church) that they (3 couples) brought forward. I don’t believe that there was ever an apology made to the 3 couples for anything done against them. I know for a fact that there was no public apology made to the 3 couples at the Jan 25th family meeting. Many people were very disappointed about this. Also, I do not believe that there was ever an apology made either privately or publicly to them regarding the by-invitation only meeting at which they were slandered and their names smeared and the 2 care group leaders were fired. This private meeting was never mentioned at the Jan. 25th family meeting. Actually, many thought that the whole church should have received an apology for this one because only part of the church were even invited. Didn’t happen…
Also, as far as I know, (sure didn’t happen at the family meeting) Gene Emerson never apologized for calling them enemies of the church or for his part in any of it. In fact, he told a group after the Jan 25th family meeting that he was not responsible for any of it. Gene had thanked them for bringing the issues forward.
“Without Freedom of thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of speech”
“The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance.”
-
“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence. It is force, and like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
- George Washington
“No man is good enough to govern another man without that other’s consent”
“The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time.”
- Abraham Lincoln
Ben Franklin
“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”
Gene’s actions are clearly inexcusable.
Members of SGCC, don’t worry about what your leaders said, just believe what they say.
That’s worked out pretty good for you so far….
Still in SGM but thinking….
There are those of us who have confronted and have lost family over it….
It comes to a point when you say, wait a minute….our child was abused….and these people have not even attempted to care for her in the basic Christian sense….and we have to convince people that this behavior is unloving and un-Christ like? They
cover themselves with “well, would you have wanted our care??” and “these people have issues”……….
We have not looked the other way, but have hit a brick wall…only God could break through this fortress.
old-timer
From one “old-timer to another, Gene is a great “churchman.” What I mean by that is that he buys into the whole SGM/PDI/TAG thing with his whole being. His identity is tied in with it from the very beginning. He was there in the beginning. He and CJ and the rest of the “originals” formed this alliance we now call SGM. They hold onto power because they see it as God mandated, so therefore right.
Gene will crush a little lamb’s spirit to protect the church machine, and he sees that as protecting the unity of the local body. As long as you are willing to promote Gene and his leadership team and SGM, he can be almost nice to be around, except for the sense of arrogance that becomes evident once you get to know him. However, once you deviate from his vision of how you should be living your life, or heaven forbid that you should question him or SGM, that is when your hope of “making the important people’s team” is indelible over. If you want to get along, then go along—that is the SG way. If you show signs of freethinking, you will be marginalized, ostracized, and minimized.
I find it almost impossible to believe that Gene’s worldview isn’t poisoning the stream of the “churches” he is the “apostle” over. It will take real men with divine courage to change the course of this well-oiled machine. It will take courageous sheep to say, “Enough” and rise up or walk out for any real foundational change to take place. There is always a price, isn’t there?
…“making the important people’s team” is overrated.
Ha ha
yes it is, but many jockey with everything they have to make that elusive team, don’t ya know?
Sure do. A well used carrot.
I am familiar with what you say ,gratefully disillusioned from sgm, that is why I believe there is little, if any, hope of change in that group.
And until I ran across this group accidentally a couple weeks ago, I had no idea how pervasive the damage was. I thought it was isolated to just the church we had attended. What an eye-opener.
HowDee, Ya’All,
When I’ze show’in signs of freethinking…
forget da be’in marginalized, ostracized, and minimized…
I’ze juz eat mo broccoli…
dat a’ll clear de room in short order… (snicker!)
Works fer me! he he
AhhhhHahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
I think this detail was left out…the new senior “pastor” for the north Denver church, Glynn Makenzie, was at the Chesapeake church before going to Denver and then on to Gilbert with Shank.
What is it with Shank’s involvement in all the LIES?
I have firsthand experience with the lies. They’re being unfolded one more step at survivors blog.
Why couldn’t he just tell the truth?
Why did the care group “leaders” and their wives have to lie to cover up things they said that didn’t match up with what Shank said at the Shanking? Their apology was a lie. Because Shank can’t tell the truth, God’s people are being forced to lie.
And why don’t the care group “leaders” have enough b***s to stand up and say “this Shanking is completely mishandled.”
Why?
one very duped Sidney
I have to say, I was particularly shocked by the recent post on Survivors. Just when you think you’ve heard it all…where was this pastor’s integrity? Where was his love for God’s folk? I am more and more convinced that men like this do not walk with God. They simply could not know Him and then deceive others the way this pastor did. And the anger? When does a pastor think he is justified in yelling at people he is suppose to gently guide? Why didn’t the apostle-in-charge immediately disqaulify this man? Instead and once again, people were hurt badly and forced to leave a place they once called “home”.
Carole, I have to say that the questions you asked on your big post are once again needing to be asked. Where is this man’s repentance? Too, too sad. I think this canary has to go have a good cry in her bird bath…
Canary,
And not surprising because back at the mothership, right around the same time, my husband was yelled at, shouted down, told to SHUT UP and called several names in a discipleship meeting. There were a dozen or so other men in the room and the guy blasted my husband publicly. Interestingly because he has always questioned a couple parts of reformed theology and he was asking about that. For some reason, every time he asked (I have been there and he’s not asking arrogantly), he always got shot down and shut up. This time, however, it was strikingly different and humiliating.
I am of a very strong belief that the “Pastor X” story on survivors is one more episode of a systemic problem.
And an interesting twist…we crossed paths with “Pastor X” for the 3 years prior to leaving SGM and prior to his Shanking. He was the ONLY pastor we’d ever had in SGM who was full of grace, gentleness, patience and kindness towards us. We entered that church in a floundering mess of a marriage. He and his wife gently picked us up and walked through the darkest days with us. My sin was not brought up until 6 months into the “counseling” and I brought it up. There were several occasions where I went on a tyrade that I was kicking my husband out, leaving SGM, leaving the church alltogether and moving on. They never confronted me. They lovingly cared for me.
I totally believe Defender’s story. I do not take that away. ”Pastor X” should have been fired (and it would have been completely justified had it been done at the time) and the family should have been vindicated.
I also believe that there are days when I yell at my children. That doesn’t take away the fact that there is wonderful fruit in our relationship. It doesn’t take away from the fact that I adore my children and I would die for any one of them.
Now, the reason we left is the 12 years leading up to that particular Shanking. It was the control, the legalism, the shouting-down my husband received, it was the way my family treated my husband calling him prideful and “puffed up” because he studied the Word and wrestled with it. It was the inept boy pastor at CLC who met with us in the beginning of our marriage crisis and completely dropped the ball after 1 meeting. There are several hundred other reasons why we are no longer part of SGM. I must say that our experience with “Pastor X” is the entire reason we stuck around for 3 more years.
I don’t know if “Pastor X” was bearing fruit by then. It was 3 years after Defender and his wife were abused. Perhaps he did get conviction and did change.
Nonetheless, it happened. And it’s systemic. And it was totally terribly mishandled. As usual….
But, alas, we’re talking about Chesapeake…not somewhere in the midwest.
Canary… unfortunately, Defender’s story did not take me by surprise. There are many stories just like Defender’s, from all over the country within SGM-ville. I still have great compassion for those who have had to suffer through these situations, but I am certainly not surprised by them any longer. And doesn’t that speak volumes about the integrity and reputation of Sovereign Grace Ministries? Sad.
You would think that the SGM pastors/leaders who act out in this way would be utterly and completely disqualified from pastoring… or serving in ANY leadership capacity. The lack of maturity shown by the leaders who demonstrate this type of behavior are no better than a five year old throwing a temper tantrum!… which, in SGM, would disqualify that disobedient five year old’s PARENTS from serving. Quite the discrepancy, don’t ya think?
Sidney… while I’m very thankful that your interactions with “pastor x” played out much differently than Defender/Defended’s did, I am having a hard time with this statement you made:
“I don’t know if “Pastor X” was bearing fruit by then. It was 3 years after Defender and his wife were abused. Perhaps he did get conviction and did change.”
If “pastor x” was convicted and changed, WHY hasn’t he repented for his actions against Defender/Defended? And repented and asked forgiveness from everyone else involved in their situation that he manipulated and lied to?
Just doesn’t make sense to me…
Carole,
That’s what I’m contemplating about this particular situation. I am considering sending the story to him and his wife and asking them to consider if he’s done everything he can to be reconciled. I am praying and talking with my husband about this.
Sidney
Sidney… that’s a tough place to be, I’m sure! To have had a completely different interaction with pastor x, and to hear of D/D’s completely opposite interaction with this same man HAS to leave you kinda scratching your head!
If you do make contact with pastor x, may I make a suggestion? Instead of asking him if he has done everything he can to be reconciled, ask him if he’s done anything to be reconciled. That may be a more appropriate line of questioning, methinks…
Just an observation from the sidelines…
By the way, Sidney… I admire you for even considering contacting pastor x regarding D/D’s situation!
It just shows where your heart is and how soft it is towards God and His ways!
Carole,
I scratched my head for about 15 minutes yesterday when I read the story. But then, while my house was quiet and I was doing the morning dishes, the Lord so kindly and graciously showed me how I had treated my precious daughter that very morning. And I thought…”hm. I sinned against her. I was not kind to her. I have yelled at her a LOT. I have gotten very angry at her. I have dealt with her unjustly and for very little reason.”
The Lord then showed me that none of those things has taken away the fact that we adore one another. That God chose this precious person for our family and that my children are my life. I know that she also adores me and that we have a very deep, abiding love.
Then I realized that I hardly ever ask them to forgive me. Not because I don’t feel conviction. I guess it’s more that I don’t think about it.
Sooooo…..no, I didn’t scratch my head for very long. It didn’t surprise me. Things like what happened with Noel and what happened with Esther make me scratch my head. Esther’s situation makes me sick. Then, sending down an edict about separation and calling that edict “biblical” is just sick. THAT makes me scratch my head.
What Pastor X did is hardly surprising or shocking. There are a few things about the story that are surprising….
The fact that this is systemic and ongoing is bad news. I have personally experienced this yelling at people, humiliating people. My husband was the brunt of it.
The fact that Apostle didn’t do more and immediately either send in accountability or fire Pastor is what bothers me mostly about the whole thing. Because if he was doing that and not realizing his fault, he shouldn’t have been a pastor for several years longer. I know…people will say “but there was accountability.” That’s not appropriate pastoral accountability in SGM. The ONLY accountability in SGM for pastors is pastors. Nobody else.
Carole,
I have to ask if he’s done “everything” because if I ask if he’s done “anything,” he will say yes, because clearly he thinks he has. Otherwise, he would have done more.
So, the key word is “everything.”
Sidney
As I mentioned previously, Gene Emerson, the “apostle” slandered and smeared the 3 couples and called them enemies of the church. He participated in a very unbiblical and ungodly meeting. Never once has he apologized and even more than that he has said that he bears no responsiblity for any of it. How could he say this when in fact, the words came from his mouth?? Where is demonstration of godly, biblical behavior in any of this and why is Emerson still an “apostle” in this movement? If they are moving Breault around, why are they not moving Emerson around? He was the one over and responsible for Breault and the Chesapeake church.
Furthermore, “Esther” cried out for help from Gene Emerson, CJ, Steve Shank, Dave Harvey, etc. and they ALL refused to help her. Steve Shank even sent an email to Keith Breault saying that he was deleting “Esther’s” email (Shank did apologize to Esther for this after he found out that he had inadvertantly sent her a copy of the email to Breault). And yes, the pastors apologized to “Esther” but only after she had sent her letter around to the apostolic team. You may be thinking, this is old news. Yes it is but why are we not seeing any changes coming from the top and why aren’t we hearing anything from CJ publically about all of the abuse, wrong doctrine, and chaos in this movement? Why are they still covering up and not telling the truth to their congregations?
Fred writes, “If they are moving Breault around, why are they not moving Emerson around? He was the one over and responsible for Breault and the Chesapeake church.”
And guess where they are moving Breault? They are moving Keith to “serve” under the “apostle” Gene! Yes, indeed, Keith will be relocating to Kingsway to learn under the “apostle” Gene. That is the solution–isn’t it incredible how SGM solves problems. It is kind of like our government thinks–Does common sense exist; i am just thinking here!
Just wondering: Will the good people from Kingsway be paying Keith’s salary?
Ha ha, you know the answer to that, Fred! But for others reading, Keith will be on Kingsway’s payroll during his “intern” tenure. And the “good people” of Kingsway, will be paying, without being consulted–But what’s new?
Thanks Gratefully! You are on TOP OF IT!!
Any folks from Kingsway reading this blog, want to give your 2 cents to this arrangement?
Although I have posted here a few times, I apologize for not “introducing’ myself. Our family exited SGM this past year,after 19 years. We are unspeakably thankful to the Lord for awakening us and opening our eyes to unsound doctrine (indwelling sin focus) and the arrogant and insidious abuses by leadership. Our story is a whole ‘nuther story,which I am not accounting now. Thankyou, Refuge, Jim and Carole for providing this Lighthouse for Gods people.
Fred and Gratefully DSG: I am also a close friend of “Esther” and prayed with her and walked out the whole Chesapeake exposure of abuses. And you are correct, when she asked for help from Gene Emerson, he did call her—and also told her to return to her pastor, Keith Brault, for his counsel. Indeed, this was the same as a child at school gettting up all her courage to go tell her teacher and prinipal that she was being abused at home and their response—go home and trust your parents. The great lack of discernment (which comes from RELATIONSHIP with the Lord and His giftings and insight and compassion) on the part of Gene Emerson and they way he spoke about and to the 3 couples in Chesapeake—is UNChristlike. And so, I wonder—exactly what and how is he going to mentor Keith Breault?? Did Keith ever genuinely repent for attempting to institute a “doctrine” of marriage that women couldnot leave marriages–no separation etc, ever–even under abuse—that they were called to “suffer ” in such appointed marriages??? And Keiths statement to the Chesapeake church that the recent flip-flopping of bringing in EH had absolutely nothing to do with the months of upheaval and exposure in the church????? I would ask “WHY NOT?” Why would the top leadership of SGM NOT be appalled by this??? Apparently, this new “doctrine” Keith was going to keep women in bondage to was not such an unBiblical idea for the SGM leadership. As Esther so succintly pointed out, the twisting of words and scripture and behavior among leadership is frightening—and is one of the very important “issues” the Lord is exposing.
Waters
Welcome to a place of safety and understanding–well usually. :-) Most of us are at various degrees of sanity and at various degrees of total healing from SGM. My wife and I are out almost two years now and growing by His grace, never looking back. When we left, it was as clear as the noses on our faces that God was blowing our little sailboat far away from what we discovered in SGM. As we look back we can only be thankful for the LIFE we are discovering when the noise of SGM finally quiets down. Abba is really close away from the noise and the pretense of the “church machine.” None of it comes immediately–but HE is faithful!
I love your words: “…when she asked for help from Gene Emerson, he did call her—and also told her to return to her pastor, Keith Brault, for his counsel. Indeed, this was the same as a child at school gettting up all her courage to go tell her teacher and principal that she was being abused at home and their response—go home and trust your parents.” What a great word picture of what commonly happens with pastors who buy into the sheparding movement and the “covering” principle of how God work with His people.
Some of them (Gene Emerson for sure) operate under that presupposition. In fairness, they are products of that paradigm of ministry that was strongly propagated in the ’70s and early ’80s. I know because I too was influenced by the Gothard phenomenon which took evangelical Christianity by storm. Unfortunately, it evolved into the shepherding craziness and the “covering” emphasis, which still dominates a few movements today, Calvary Chapel and SGM, to name a few.
I think that all of that is being challenged now, and perhaps we are witnessing battle lines being drawn in the sand, with much colateral damage in the mean time, unfortionatly–Esther being a prime example.
Waters, thanks for the very articulate and well thought out post! May God bring great healing to you and your family and flood you with Living Water!! To answer one question, we do know that Keith Breault and other pastors in Chesapeake actually called women in (who had been in abusive marriages) and apologized to them for ever “allowing” them to separate in the first place. Of course that is part of what was going on before anyone even knew about the “new doctrine”. After people became aware of Esther’s story, Keith and the other pastors changed their tune and “saw” the error of their ways. Keith did apologize at the Jan. 25th meeting for implementing an erroneous doctrine (I think).
Because of the pastors, ”because of indwelling sin, you the victim are a sinner and you the abuser are a sinner so there is no guilty party here” model of counseling, many women thought that they were crazy for YEARS!!
Gratefully DSGM
Thankyou for the thoughtful welcome. Your words: “…we are thankful for the LIFE we are discovering when the noise of the SGM machine finally quiets down.” So true!! We have become members of another church — upon our 1st vist there,as we came home stunned from the Presence of the love and liberty of the risen Christ…we were attempting to discuss our reactions to the church—and my husband was walking back and forth in the kitchen and he suddenly said:– “…..it’s like LIFE, in that church.” Which are the exact words I had written on my “Visitor Card” as I attempted to capsulate the waves of emotions and thankfulness on a little visitors card!! Yes, He IS the Redeemer—and we are in process.
I would like to delightfully report that Esther and her children are absolutely thriving and receiving healing and steps of restoration at their new home church. The Lord gives her directions,she obeys, and He provides every need—it is a most amazing story to watch (and we are all Living Epistles to the glory of God).
Yes, as has been reported on these blogs, the Shepherding movement has risen its hideous head once again through SGM-and continuously, Holy Spirit brings His Light to expose where the enemy would come to kill, steal and destroy. And because SGM has been able to operate ‘covertly’, in a sense—by controlling people with the threat of their “sin of gossip/slander” and attempt to silence those who ask scriptural important questions of SGM authoritative robotic leaders–Truth of what goes on “behind closed doors” is now on the internet (re: God always intervenes in media ‘discoveries’—telegram,telephone,radio,television.) And so, we who have been silenced and disregarded after mannnnnnnnnnnny attempts to bring Truth have an avenue to speak. The deeds of darkness,by anyone, God promises, will be exposed. He has given such lengths of grace to so many pastors and ‘apostles’ and the Gaithersberg echelon……..but they arenot brokenhearted over their sin of mauling the sheep,the church……only how they can “fix” it all and veneer everything to appear Godly and Biblical…..We pray for all those pastors,”A Team”, and leaders…”repent, and return to your first love—the Lord Jesus CHrist.”
Waters,
So glad you are on the mend, emotionally and spiritually. Thank the Lord that there are still churches out there filled with saints who move in the love of Christ!
Hi Canary,
How are things going with you? I know you were not feeling well a few weeks ago, and I lost touch with how you were progressing through that. In any case I see you are still on top of your cage.
Waters,
Yes, it is wonderful to have our sins forgiven–ALL OF THEM by the way! But it is the LIFE we receive that is especially precious, which is the root of all intimacy with HIM. It is what makes our hearts cry out ABBA Father, no longer playing life in a “play not to loose” mode; rather, living life in a there is no condemnation and no separation possible in Christ Jesus because what He did for us is final, complete, and indelible–that is the good news!!
Fred and Canary, Thankyou, too for your encouragement!
And yes, Gratefully, we are rejoicing to recall that we walk in newness of life,that we are ever being changed,from glory to glory…as Holy Spirit nurtures His sanctifying work in us!
Fred, in regards to the Jan 25th meeting, in Chesapeake, did Gene Emerson speak on behalf of the SGM Ledership about any means of correction they would be bringing to Keith B for his perverse twisting of scripture to keep women in abusive marriages?? Thanks for any clarification!
Waters,
I am so glad to hear that you and you husband are finding LIFE in your new church. My wife and I attend the same church as “Esther” and I can attest to your report – she and her children are doing very well indeed! God is truly faithful.
Waters, no Gene Emerson did not speak on behalf of the SGM leadership about any means of correction for Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, Trevor Haynes or Chris Mangold. In fact, he has never reported back on the supposed investigation that was to take place after the 3 couples brought the issues forward.
Has there been any investigations into Gene Emerson’s behavior as well as the other apostles who would not get involved with Esther? These men are just as guilty as the pastors, in fact, I believe more so. For the most part, the pastors in Chesapeake are young inexperienced men who should have had great oversight by the apostles. This did not happen.
And Waters, I agree with you. God has been so patient and extended so much grace to the leaders and pastors of SGM. Would stiffnecked and prideful be accurate adjectives here or just lack of discernment???
In Chesapeake, the pastors were given many opportunities of grace to change the course that they were headed on which was a course of destruction for themselves and this church. They refused the grace and we see the outcome….
It just hit me – do people not know that as Keith was writing the new doctrine on separation that he was presenting to the Chesapeake church in the fall of 09 that Gene Emerson, Jeff Purswell and others were reading and proofing it? They were in agreement with the new doctrine or they would have stopped it because they definitely knew about it.
WHY is K Breault relocating to Gene’s church ? Perhaps to become more of a SGM son of a gun than he already is. Perhaps they want to “save” him before he comes to his senses. Seriously, he’s a really nice guy, just incompetent, and he gets SGM politics mixed up with Godliness clearly. And he obviously isn’t very good at self-evaluation or loving truth and common sense if the conclusion conflicts with any SGM politics. Unfortunately, because he chose to keep his career going with SGM, there’s little hope for him, especially under Gene. So the stuff will continue to roll downhill, and he’ll think he’s making progress because he will be protected by Gene the Great. Something like this has the potential of really turning a bad pastor into a better one if he sees the error and turns 180 degrees, but this is not the case here. He will now become well-trained in the very best SGM tactics of non-accountability, crowd control, and will fall further into additional faulty interpretation of doctrine and its practice. In other words, this is possibly the worst move he could have made, particularly if he was more concerned with his soul and calling, than his career. Unfortunately for him and his future flock, he chose his SG career over true ministry. And so another SG son of a gun is born.
more of a SGM son of a gun than he already is
millertime,
Brillant comments, IMHO! I like the “Gene the Great” especially. Incredible discernment!
Fred,
I remember that too, when Esther and the 3 couples were going through all the meetings, that Keith did say that Jeff Purswell was reviewing his pages of this new “doctrine”. At the time, we thought, that is most horriffic if true and horiffic if not true (because then Keith would be telling an untruth). And so, that begs the question- was SGM Big Guns watching to see if this doctrine would float at the large Chesapeake church????? I remember Keith was honored at PC for being at the top of his class. The letter of the law (which kills, Jesus said) may have attmepted to be written through Keiths hands while the Gaithersberg echelon “watched over” it all. Perhaps that is why there is a silence (with small aplogy )instead of an uproar from leadership to ensure this type of heresy doesnot occur. I would be greatly alarmed if Keith Breault would be on a road to pastoring again or in an administrative position at headquarters. As Millertime stated, under Gene’s tutalage it would be choosing career over ministering. Honestly, the Big Guns do seek to duplicate themselves, instead of THE Shepherd,Jesus—the One Who truly watches over our souls.
Waters,
You wrote, “I would be greatly alarmed if Keith Breault would be on a road to pastoring again or in an administrative position at headquarters.”
Well, the plan is for Keith to “intern” under Gene at Kingsway and in due time for Keith to be sent out to plant another SGM church.
I have a specific question: is Kingsway going to be paying Keith’s salary while he is interning there, is Chesapeake, or is SGM?
Thanks for anyone that knows.
did they know my son was raped??????? Why was nothing said???? 11 years 0ld. Richmond VA.church. Virgina BEACH South side church knew something and said nothing???????????? We find out when he was eighteen,if I knew when he was sixteen I think I could of helped him,I know I could of helped him. Moved to Virginia beach 1989,left1994. what more can I say, I just live with this, maybe mailing this WILL just make me feel a little better ,JUST THAT I HAVE TOLD SOME OF THE STORY.
Hi Everyone:
I just wanted to stop in and give a praise report! God is continuing to bless my
children and I. We are so well cared for. Each day that passes I marvel at God’s
faithfulness to provide. To think we are living in times where the economy is
hard on a two income family, and yet God shows His power to sustain me and
my children on a very tiny income. Of course, we all know it is because of the
wonderful Body of Christ (each of you) who respond to the Holy Spirit when
He prompts you to reach out your hand to help a brother or sister! I am so
very grateful to each of you who have continued to walk with my children and
I.
God has been walking me through a season of the healing of wounds. I guess
I never knew I had wounds over the years. I know I would cry at times, but I
had such a wonderful intimacy with my Savior that I didn’t realize some of the
wounds I had sustained.
Slowly over time God is revealing to me the wounds I have. It is painful for the
moment, but the fruit of facing them and releasing and forgiving has brought
more and more freedom to my soul. I am very excited about the future.
Recently I remembered a Word God gave me back in 2007. It was so powerful
then, but now it seems even more to me than ever.
In Joshua 1 & 2 we find the story of God’s people inheriting the land that God had promised them (this included the city of Jericho). God commanded His people to be strong and very courageous, and to be careful to do according to His Word. This story includes the event of the capturing of the city of Jericho. God was speaking to me that in a sense some of us are within the walls of the city experiencing a spiritual battle (a spiritually life threatening battle). God’s will is that we be included in inheriting and taking possession of His promise to save us. He spoke to me that the walls are crashing all around us. This is God’s doing. The walls represent all those things that we have been tempted to, or have deliberately placed our security, love, trust, comfort, and allegiance to other than Himself. God has made provision for us and for those in our family who are willing to come to gather within His protective dwelling with the scarlet cord tied in the window of our hearts which represents the shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, there to be protected, redeemed, and saved though all around may be crashing down. He requires a response of whole hearted obedience to let go of all else and to come to Him and in complete surrender place all trust and confidence in Him and in Him alone. His desire is to “save” us and to lead us to inherit the land that He has promised us in eternity – our place of perfect rest – free from sin, all enemies, all suffering, and all fear. This story includes a warning to those of Rahab’s household that if they go out of the doors of her house (which represents the secure dwelling in Christ covered by His blood), that their blood would be upon their own head left to face the full wrath of God which is a dreadful and fearful thing.
Remember, Rahab was the prostitute who found her place in the
plans and purposes of God where one day He would save her and she would be a part of the very lineage of Jesus Christ himself!!!! What hope!!!!
May God continue to cause the walls to fall down that each of
His children may walk in total freedom!
Gratefully,
With the current plan of action, for Keith to be “interning” under Gene E (????), we have opportunity to pray and do spiritual warfare during that time. AND, our household is committed to remain sensitive to the Holy Spirit and answer the call to be “watchmen” on the wall…the spiritual lives of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ are at stake.
Dear Mother–
I am so very sorry. This is a very safe place to tell your story and find prayer and understanding. Many will weep with you.
Ken Delage, who is interning under Gene Emerson, will be leaving Kingsway for a “church” plant in Fredericksburg at the end of this month to make final preperations to begin that new “church” plant later this summer. That will make room for Keith to move in whenever EH takes over the sr. pastor role at Chesepeake.
Oh right, Fredericksburg. Because there are no good churches in Fredericksburg. I forgot.
Esther/Sylvia,
Thankyou for speaking,dear friend and sister…….we rejoice with you to watch Gods sure Hand of care and faithfulness and restoration for you and your children.Saints, this is a life-giving word she has brought us….may our only security (and alleigance)be in the Lord Jesus Christ…….
A Mother,
My wife would love to hear from you. No pressure, but if you want to send a note, she’s at carole@sgmrefuge.com
We’re praying that God’s peace would rest on you and your family.
Dear A Mother,
My heart is breaking for you. I am so very, very sorry for what happened to your son and to you. May God’s most abundant peace and love saturate you and your son and bring forth total and complete healing. I will be praying for you and your son. God bless you dear woman!
Esther,
I’ve been wondering how you are doing. That was so beautifully written. Thank you for sharing.
A Mother,
I’m so sorry. Your son and your family will be in our prayers.
Esther, so good to hear that you and your family are doing well! Thank you for the wonderful word!
A Mother,
I am so sorry….you are in my prayers too.
May I encourage you to consider emailing Carole?
She has been a blessing and a wise comforter to many.
http://sex-offender.vsp.virgin.....regId=3705
who were they protecting? this man, the victims or themselves?
A Mother, sadly, oh so sadly, SGM has a pattern of protecting the abusers and treating the victims as if they are the abuser, as if they are the ones in the wrong.
CJ et al, wake up and repent because we know that this is happening in many of your churches. Wake up and repent because the people will not stand in silence any longer. Wake up and repent because we know that you and your leaders have been protecting sexual predators, sexual deviants, child molesters, wife abusers and others. This abuse has gone on long enough and too many people especially the defenseless have been hurt. I am not speaking out of speculation or gossp. I am speaking here as one who knows of too many cases where this has happened and where my friends and their children have been hurt.
We are blowing the trumpet and sounding the alarm. We will not stand by and allow you and your ’leaders” to continue this mockery. Those that you, SGM, have allowed to be hurt, that you have neglected and abused are precious to God and He is saying ENOUGH!!!
A Mother,
We are praying for you–you have brought this into the light. I hope you will email Carole, that your heart can be heard. We are covering you in prayer
PS I know that these sexual abusive, neglectful cover-ups have occurred in Fairfax, Richmond/Kingsway, Denver, and Chesapeake SGM churches. I am but one person which makes me wonder, how many cases are there ???? Folks, I am sad to say, we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.
OMGoodness, I honestly had no idea that these horrifying things had gone on in PDI or SMG churches.
However, I can tell you all that the church we attended before PDI (methodist)had the same thing– A guy who loved helping in children’s ministries, and later spent time in jail.
But the feelings of anger, rage and heartbreak that you must be feeling Mother! I am so sorry you and your son had to go through that. And I am sorry that you do not feel vindicated because of the pastoral treatment.
Fred, right on.
.
Esther,
Your words are so encouraging. The Lord has spoken to my husband and I about being in Jericho, as well, and that the walls have fallen down. I am printing out your post to show him. I’m glad you are doing well!
A Mother,
There is hope in Jesus. Here is a big hug [[[[[[[[[[Mother]]]]]]]]].
Fred,
Denver?
Is there someplace where I can read about this?
Was it north or south Denver?
Sidney
Sidney, I am sorry to say that there is no place that you can read about this. I cannot share details because it is not my story. Suffice it to say, it is very real and very grievous.
Fred wrote on
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 am –
“PS I know that these sexual abusive, neglectful cover-ups have occurred in Fairfax, Richmond/Kingsway, Denver, and Chesapeake SGM churches. I am but one person which makes me wonder, how many cases are there ???? Folks, I am sad to say, we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.”
Fred also wrote on
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:38 pm –
“Sidney, I am sorry to say that there is no place that you can read about this. I cannot share details because it is not my story. Suffice it to say, it is very real and very grievous.”
Beloved of God writes —
I had a story very similar to Esther’s in the North Denver church.
Yes, folks, you’ve only heard the teensiest drop in the bucket as to what went on in that church, and yes, it is very real and very grievous.
When I’ve been able to tell an occasional person my story, they have been speechless or full of words, but all with grief and anger and shock that this should have happened by design and by carefully crafted policies and doctrines in a “church”.
This happened to me under the direction and knowledge of the head pastor and the other pastors, and Steve and Janis Shank. Actually, the worst I experienced there was from the pastors and the Shanks.
But, of course, all that was with a bit of the real gospel thrown in for “good” measure.
There is more about the North Denver church at:
To Steve Shank, Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson, and CJ Mahaney, from “Esther”
Jim on January 20th, 2009
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/2.....j-mahaney/
AND AT:
From my “in” box… | SGM Survivors
By Kris, on July 12th, 2008
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=76
If Steve Shank picked and trained all these pastors who were later removed for “lack of gifting,” what does that say about Steve Shank? Why is he not removed for “lack of gifting”????
Keep digging, folks! Keep pressing for the truth!
More about North Denver at:
The Kingdom of Shank
Jim on February 4th, 2009
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/02/0.....-of-shank/
Beloved,
I’m not surprised at the players. Not one bit. Not one bit at all.
There is a very long trail of ruined lives behind Mr Shank. When his wife involves herself, the long trail grows.
I’m so so sorry.
Sidney
Sidney, I’ve heard that from others, too. All of it!
And yes, I agree totally about all of what you said!
Yet none of the leaders — CJ, AT (apolostolic team), former AT, LT (leadership team), both of the Shanks — repent and turn. None of them reacts differently (at least publicly) than the pharisees who carefully crafted insincere responses to Jesus. AND they do not take responsibility for the ruined lives, families, and marriages they have caused, let alone try to make restitution and try to help those people by binding up their wounds and staying by them and making sure they become whole again.
By their fruit you shall know them — and these people have repeately and consistently SHOWN they do NOT love the people of God, the Word of God, and the Lord.
One more thing — Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
I fear for these people’s very souls!
There is so much “another gospel” in SGM. There are so many “another gospel”s in SGM.
I pray for these people’s very salvation!
A Mother —
I am so very sorry. I will pray for you and your family.
Beloved of God, thank you so much for writing. I pray that God quickly heals you and restores you. Hopefully, there will be a time in the near future when your pain is a distant memory. God is faithful and He loves you so much. God bless you!
Fred wrote — Hopefully, there will be a time in the near future when your pain is a distant memory.
BoG writes — I cannot even imagine such a thing.
Thank you for your prayers.
BoG,
Because of the love and faithfulness of God, your healing, total and complete, will happen. Jesus came to heal your broken heart: Isaiah 61:1-8 “He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted…….To comfort all who mourn….3To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified. 4And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolation, And they shall repair the ruined cities….7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor….Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. 8For I, the Lord, love justice;”
Fred,
Your words are always so comforting to folks. I’m glad you are here.
Beloved of God,
Fred is right that there will come a day when the SGM stuff is just a distant memory. Really! You will even begin to see purpose in your having gone through the tough stuff. Just keep holding Jesus’ hand. He knows how to get you into a place of rest. Hugs!
Thanks Canary for your encouraging words. I have missed seeing you around the blog. Hope you are feeling better!
Beloved of God, I was in the North Denver church for four long painful excruciating years as part of the church plant. I have been gone for 7 years and out of SGM entirely for 4.5, I’m so grateful for every single moment spent away from the insanity.
I watched too many women and a few men go through insanity at the hands of SGM’s leadership. I was deeply saddened to find out most every thing I thought I knew and people I thought could be trusted were really perpetrating more harm than all the blatant sinners I hung out with before I got saved, all in the name of Christ. It still makes me want to vomit.
I’d love to correspond via email at some point. Maybe the administrator could arrange a way to set that up with out either of us having to reveal who we are to the public.
I’d be happy to do that-just need both party’s consent.
Assuming you’re both the same gender
jim@sgmrefuge.com
Free Indeed —
Thank you for putting into words what I could not verbalize, about the insanity — at the hands of the leaders and pastors and teachings.
Jim — OK by me. You know my gender.
Thanks also to Fred and Canary for their kind words. Thanks to all who pray.
Jim, please give my gmail address.
Jim, I’ve sent you my email. And gender.
Thank you BoG.
Beloved of God and FreeIndeed,
Would love and appreciate to also be in communication with you, as I also was a part of the North Denver church.
Jim, would you be a dear since you know me and send them my personal email address? I know it has my name but thats okay…nothing left to hide
Thank you,
Mark of the Lion
Markofthelion,
I’ve sent Jim the all clear on contacting me. I do hope you email me. I have an explanation to make.
It’s OK with me, Jim.
Sindey and Fred,
I am from the Devner Church and would be happy to anwer your questions via email. I am up to date on the “happenings” and am just trying to put my story together in the safest way possible before “exposing my identity”. Once it is out there, people are not going to be so happy with me. But it is my story to share…
Mark of the Lion
markofthelion@live.com
Brothers and Sisters:
I am praying! One of my concerns for those still in Sovereign Grace Ministries truly is the need for God to break through the walls that have gone up around God’s people. Religious walls that do not allow Holy Spirit the freedom to come in and bring true healing and liberation in the hearts and lives of God’s people. The broken people remain broken. Our young people need to know the power of the Gospel in its fullness– the birth, life, death, & resurrection of our Savior. That the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us, His church. We must teach the need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to walk in the Holy Spirit.
One of the things that has been missing among others is the recognition of the third person of the trinity – “Holy Spirit.” I have often wondered why the leaders who experienced fruitfulness in their personal lives over the years weren’t sharing their secret – the power of the Holy Spirit who was working in them. Spirit filled men who I knew were filled because I would hear them speaking in tongues when I was praying next to them. Men who often were used to bring forth Words of Knowledge during a meeting calling out to someone in particular who was struggling with a specific area that needed healing, repentance, or encouragement. Where did these gifts go? Someone told me last year that the Lord had revealed to them that Sovereign Grace had “divorced” the Holy Spirit. What a thought. The very one whom Christ warned us not to grieve because He seals our souls until Christ returns. The very one whom Jesus Christ said he must go back to the Father so that the “Holy Spirit,” “Comforter,” and “Helper,” could come. And when we walk in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but instead manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit – “Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” Holy Spirit is manifested in us through the gifts – utterance of wisdom utterance of knowledge, gifts of faith, gifts of healing, prophetic utterance, the gift of tongues and interpretation, etc. and all for the edification of the Body of Christ, His church.
Perhaps because this is such a forsaken relationship in Sovereign Grace Ministries, it provides us a glimpse as to what has caused such a lack of discernment, wisdom, power, and fruit of the Holy Spirit in some of the leadership. Someone also told me that Sovereign Grace Ministries made a change doctrinally concerning the Holy Spirit in 2002. I do not know what these changes involved, but the fruit of these changes has manifested itself in the church in recent times.
Ephesians 1:13-23 “In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.” For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love towards all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power towards us who believe, according to the working of His great might that he worked in Christ when he raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under His feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 2:1-6 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But, GOD, BEING RICH IN MERCY BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE WITH WHICH HE LOVED US, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN OUR TRESPASSES, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST—BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED—AND RAISED US UP WITH HIM AND SEATED US WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS…” PRAISE THE LORD!!!!
Hi Esther, If it wasn’t for the HOLY SPIRIT I don’t know what I would have done so many times over the past 20 years. HE is the ONE WHO led me out of PDI, HE has sustained me time and again. Given me hope, comfort, love, grace, mercy and help to go on. What a dark, bleak, hopeless world it would be without the HOLY SPIRIT.
Now, that being said, I learned to know HIM on my own, not at church, not in a meeting or a small group. I cried out to the LORD throughout many years and just by being around HIM so much, I got to know HIM because HE revealed HIMSELF to me. That took time, I might add, for me anyway.
So when a fake or counterfeit spirit came along, it was easier to spot. Or more likely, when the SPIRIT was just not (rarely) ever in a meeting–it was easily discernable. And made me wonder why. Knowledge was preferred over what God wanted. Correct doctrine(but whose doctrine–and who said it was correct) was the god…people were of little value except for their money and their ability to sit on a chair or do the work that the leaders deemed valuable. We were just worker bees, supporting the queen, or king.
The evil one has honed his skills well over the ages. He uses religion constantly to test us and try us(with the LORD’S permission, of course) to prove what is in our hearts. To see if we will come forth as gold, to see if we will be true to the HOLY SPIRIT or to go the way of men and their specific version of church.
If anyone wants to live by the SPIRIT and walk by the SPIRIT then they simply trust GOD to lead them and guide them—and that only comes by spending much time with HIM.
Great posting about the HOLY SPIRIT.
Hi Sylvia,
I think the “separation” started at that particular PDI “Celebration” back in the mid 90s when CJ announced that he was taking over the meeting from the Holy Spirit. The final divorce decree came through in 2002.
……………………………….
Here are two versions – the first is before 2002 and the second is after 2002 – of a particular portion of a SGM church’s “Statement of Faith”. Notice any changes?
#1
Baptism in the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit empowers believers for Christian witness and service. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are theologically distinct experiences, though the latter may occur in close proximity to the former. The promise of the Father is freely available to all who believe in Jesus Christ, thereby enabling them to exercise the powers of the age to come in ministry and mission. As portrayed in the Books of Acts, speaking in tongues is a common and immediate evidence, but not a necessary evidence, that the gift of the Holy Spirit has been received. The Holy Spirit desires to continually fill each believer with power to witness, and imparts his supernatural gifts for the edification of the Body and the work of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today and are to be earnestly desired and practiced. They are essential in the mission of the Church in the world today.
#2
Empowered by the Spirit
In addition to effecting regeneration and sanctification, the Holy Spirit also empowers believers for Christian witness and service. While all genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at conversion, the New Testament indicates the importance of an ongoing, empowering work of the Spirit subsequent to conversion as well. Being indwelt by the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit are theologically distinct experiences. The Holy Spirit desires to fill each believer continually with increased power for Christian life and witness, and imparts his supernatural gifts for the edification of the Body and for various works of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today, are vital for the mission of the church, and are to be earnestly desired and practiced.
Esther,
Thank you for your comment above. You have revealed something that is so important – that is, the subtle changes that have taken place in SGM with regard to some very foundational issues such as how the Holy Spirit is viewed. This was revealed to us in care group quite unintentionally by one of the pastors last Fall. We were shocked to find out that SGM had modified its view of the Holy Spirit back in 2002 and no one in the congregation was told (as far as we know).
For those of you that are interested in reading more on what SGM (Jeff Purswell) has to say about the Holy Spirit, read this.
We must all be be Bereans and be watchful for subtle changes in doctrine.
This may sound nutty, but I can’t bear to read that paper from Jeff Purswell. I just tried. My heart and mind recoil when I read any official SGM literature. I’d bought so many books over the years and am slowly but surely throwing away all the SGM produced stuff as I come across it. GAH! I just don’t want that crap back in my head. It always seemed so right, but then I discovered just how wrong it is.
Thank you, though, for doing the hard work of documentation. I long for the day when the lid is blown off and SGM is exposed for the cesspool of twisted and extra-biblical nonsense it is.
OK, here the latest spin on the Eric Hugh/Keith Breault by the “apostle” Gene Emerson. For those closest to the Chesapeake brouhaha, we would love to hear your critique.
Here’s the link with the pertinent part starting around the 30 minute mark.
One more thing just in case you think you must listen for 30 minutes until you get to the Chesapeake part, just move the slider up to the 30 minute part and start listening from there.
How does GE’s sermon’s timeline match up with Esther and the others timeline?
They must truly believe the sheep are fools…
Well, if our presupposition is that our pastors speak God’s words and decrees, much like the priests of the old covenant, then the sheep don’t have much room to question, do they? And when they do, the spotlighting begins, i.e. the pastors turn the questioning into the sheep’s pride and an independent spirit, ending into the focus being on the sheep and not the pastor. This “spotlighting” has worked pretty good for them.
Sylvia! I’m so glad to see what God has done in your life, although I’m sad for all you went through to get to this fresh pasture where you can graze freely. I can see that the Holy Spirit has imparted the gift of wisdom to you. It oozes through your posts like fresh anointing oil and I’m grateful for every word you’ve ever said here and for how you stood up and had your say in Chesapeake. You are a brave soldier! I know you have been through an awful lot (understatement). I just wanted to say I’m sorry I didn’t do more for you 12 or 13 years ago when we were friends. I had no idea how much you were hurting. You served me tirelessly and loved all of us with such devotion — and we never knew the depth of your pain. You are a remarkable woman of God.
“A Mother,” I am interceding for you and praying that God holds you and your son in His loving arms. Isaiah says “He gently leads those with young.” I believe 18 is young! May God bless you and care for you!
A question recently came up that I need help answering…
A woman I co-lead a homeschool group with told me that stories like those we’ve read here happen in all churches and that, while grievous, they are definitely not solely a SGM phenomenon. She has even said that there are many other denominations and churches with websites like this one (refuge). I asked for specifics, but she couldn’t give me any. Is this true?
She has defended our local SGM church here in my town and poo-pooed my concerns for those women in our group who attend there. Now, the fact that they are in OUR homeschool group (not SGM) is a positive sign to me that they are still open and thinking freely. That being the case, I want to warn them about the church they attend before they get in too deep, and my co-leader wants me not to. I realize this doesn’t fall under “Chesapeake” but for the fact that I used to attend the Chesapeake church. I just didn’t know quite where to ask this question.
Are there other websites like this one for other denominations?
Can someone give me info on the richmond church i have friends there i have attended a few times. from reading gene sounds corrupt.
I am a Chesapeake Sovereign Grace Pedestrian…I have fled that “Egypt”, have crossed the Red Sea, and am only looking back in concern for others left behind who are being brainwashed by a bunch of guys who call themselves leader, constantly prop themselves up, and continuously feed the people “doo doo” about how privileged they are. NOW: I HAVE JUST LISTENED TO GENE EMERSON’S MESSAGE FROM TODAY: I must say I have never personally witnessed, nor have ever heard of a church leader (Gene Emerson) placing a SPIN on an issue within a church like he has. I am shocked and saddened by this man’s lack of fear of our Lord, that he would turn the issue on its side like he did today, and feed the congregation of his church such “poop!” It makes me truly sick to my stomach that this man is allowed to speak at a pulpit on behalf of my Lord, Jesus Christ. IF ANYONE THOUGHT THAT THE PASTORS OF SOVEREIGN GRACE CHESAPEAKE WERE NOT ABOVE REPROACH, AND SHOULD RESIGN THEIR POSITIONS, THEN THIS MAN SHOULD BE LEADING THAT CHARGE! MR. EMERSON YOU HAVE CERTAINLY GRIEVED THE HOLY SPIRIT…I WILL PRAY FOR YOU…AND BESEECH YOU TO COME CLEAN TO YOUR CONGREGATION AND REPENT!
By the way…are we to believe that approximately 25% of Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake leaving over the past 3 months had nothing to do with the change? (and more will follow once the school year ends…as the “leaders” of that Church continue to woo those who are sitting on the fence by placing them in privileged positions of “leadership!”) This kind of cover up will only cause more to leave.
I Would really like some info on the Kingsway midlothian church. im new and i have met a few people. everyone seems nice, but the pastor Gene i just got a bad vibe from him the first time i met him.
Greener Pastures
Thank you for your perspective, being a former SG Chesapeake member. When I listened to the “apostles” message, I only heard his words without the context of knowing the Chesapeake context and 2 pastors Gene was referring to, Eric and Keith. I would love to hear where Gene’s words and reality part ways.
lostone
What would you like to know? I was one of the sheep at Kingsway back in the day but am still incognito because I still have friends who couldn’t handle the truth about SGM. One thing you can rely on is the VIBE you got when you first met him. I regrettably ran right past that vibe that I received from him the first few encounters I had with him. Go with your gut here. And yes the people are nice–but in SGM much of that is a created culture that often breaks down after one leaves the organization.
A ”cesspool of twisted and extra-biblical nonsense” – i love that. I was at SG Ches for almost 15 years, and that pretty much sums it up accurately. You wouldn’t believe some of the stories I could tell, you wouldn’t believe it. The pastors in Ches are really whacked. They should all be summarily fired w/out cause or explanation. You’re outta here !!! And Gene is a nut – I had a conversation with him when he came down during the Ches blowup – and you wouldn’t believe what he told me regarding accountability of pastors – simply unbelievable. What a whack job – a true SGM cheerleader.
Should i be worried about the safety of my kids? what are the starting point classes all about? if i start the classes is there going to be pressure to join? im asking questions because i have a “friend” that is a member. when we met this person was looking for a way out of the church, but was pulled back in. what is the view of dating outside the church? more questions later thanks.
I wish we could come up with some solid solutions. I’ve seen it all at this point — from growing up in Dallas with the whole Bob Tilton mess to my SG Chesapeake experience to working for Pat Robertson to living in Charlotte where Jim Bakker and the gang once were. I’m so tired of seeing a wake of beautiful souls damaged practically beyond recognition by misguided leaders. This is not the abundant life Jesus came to give us!
Isn’t there something else we can do to help? Or are we waiting for the leadership of these churches to recognize their error? Why can’t they see it? I’m so discouraged!
Millertime, do I know you?
millertime
Thanks for your input into this whole spin machine. If you would elaborate a little on both what you witnessed at Chesapeake and especially, for my sanity, what Gene told you about the accountability of pastors story. If you would feel more comfortable via email, Jim please allow Millertime my email address. I think the more these things come into the light, the more likely things will change or people will feel free to vote with their feet.
lostone
“Should you be worried about your kids?” That depends. Physically, no way! Spiritually and emotionally is other story. IMHO, over time the subtly of SGM leaves its mark of the “sin-focus” and the subtle and not so subtle pressure of conforming to the cookie-cutter prototype that trickles down from Gaithersburg down to the “troops in the field.” In my experience the pressure to conform was never direct with me; it was masterfully executed as a undercurrent which became VERY clear. They have a way of marginalizing and shunning and praising and not praising. including and not including. They reward approved behavior and punish “bad” behavior. They are absolutely the best at it!
Staring Points class: My advise is NOT to start and you’ll be fine.
But I have that feeling that you probably think you can navigate through it without being sucked in, right? Well, I thought that too. It took me years to wake up–But then again, I am a slow learner! 
lostone: The M.O. of SGC is to pursue all who plan to flee a member church and do what ever they can to woo that individual back. In Ches. they have resorted to offering positions in leadership (of course, unpaid) to prevent more people from leaving, especially those who might possess any following both in and out of the SGC. This is most likely why your friend was “pulled back” when he was attempting to leave. Can anyone say “CULT?”
Millertime – I am wondering if I know you too. What years did you attend the sess pool known as SGM Ches?
In my experience the pressure to conform was never direct with me; it was masterfully executed as a undercurrent which became VERY clear. They have a way of marginalizing and shunning and praising and not praising. including and not including. They reward approved behavior and punish “bad” behavior. They are absolutely the best at it!
That is it exactly. God forbid you are not standard issue Christian #1, 2 or 3. If you deviate at all from what the standard is, they do their best to force you into their cookie cutter mold. Insidious is what it is. I got the very subtle pressure when I lived with a pastor’s family for a time. NIGHTMARE. I was often rebuked for not being just like the one single woman everyone in leadership upheld as the ideal. I was rarely rebuked for actual sins. Usually the rebukes were for the wife’s preferences, the way she wanted me to behave rather than for anything slightly biblical. It’s a baffling process that just sucks the spirit right out of you. It wasn’t until I was well out of their house that I even realized what the heck they were doing to me.
Gratefully Dissillusioned,
I took a moment, as you suggested, and listened to the sermon from King’s Way yesterday. All I can say, is that if I were from Fredericksburg, I would be highly insulted. I wrote Mr. Emerson, and asked what he meant by the statement 42:12 minutes into his sermon, “because of your gifts, obedience and sacrifice, now there is a healthy church in Fredericksburg.” I asked if he was stating that there were no, healthy bible based, Christ centered churches there. That is his remark verbatim. I am anxious to see if he responds…..
MiMI
Mimi,
Nice catch. I totally missed that. The subtleties are amazing and illustrative of the core thinking.
P.S.
I was amazed also at how the explainaion of Chesapeake was gone over. Sounds a little like “me thinketh he doeth protest too much”. Went way over and beyond trying to explain what happened. Fear produces rambling and repetitive statements. It appears to me that things are not as cool, calm and collected as man tries to make it appear.
When we know we have heard from G-D, are obedient to HIS word and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I believe we find and feel no need to constantly explain or defend our actions, as we rest in the peace of the Lord. But, when we as men, try repeatedly to tell our story over and over, are we then, trying to convince ourselves as well as others that we are doing what is right in the sight of God?
MiMi
Mimi, you are scary perceptive. Thanks so much for helping me filter out the spin. I so want to believe the best, but have been been fooled too many times with spin, until a dear friend of mine was badly hurt.
G.D.
I believe we are to believe the best. After all, our heavenly Father, sees the best in us. HE ever looks upon our potential and the good we have in us. I believe also though, as the word instructs us, we are to use wisdom. We are to seek truth, and NO one can give us complete truth except our Lord and HIS Holy Spirit,. When I am confused, I always ask that “truth be revealed” to me. Hosea received these instructions from the Lord when he was confused about Gomer and her actions and purpose in his life.
When I pray that prayer, and then get into the word, HE always takes me to a place to erase the confusion and give me confidence in HIM. Then, when I know I have heard from HIM, the peace comes and it doesn’t matter what man says to me.
Believe me, this has taken me many years of prayer and healing from an abusive childhood to be able to stand stong in this. But after decades of lies, deception and pain, I have grown to recognize and trust the peace of the word. You are doing fine. Don’t let the enemy rob you of the work HE is doing in your heart and life. You are stronger, wiser than you believe. YOU are His, bought and paid for: a daughter of the king. YOU ARE DADDY’S GIRL……!!
P.S. Those years of abuse were used by HIM to bring me into an incredibly intimate relationship with HIM. I can look back and be so thankful for those years of pain. You too, will one day be able to thank HIM for the path HE has taken you on to draw you closer to HIM.
i would like to get info on why S.P is no longer a pastor at kingsway say god was calling him back to secular work sound like bs to me.
Lostone–
You have a bad vibe. Your friend has a bad vibe. Why would you consider it, then? There are tons of good churches in Richmond. I could give you some ideas of where to start/
Why pursue being a part of a church you are worried about?
RT
You make an excellent point, but SGM is enticing during the seduction stage of its relationship with new-comers. It can be hard to walk away, even with the bad “vibes.” MANY get seduced and later feel trapped, some highly educated and otherwise savvy.
lostone
The reason Steve Patterson stepped down is unknown to me. I heard the spin as you did, but know little else. He was “sent/called” from Brent’s old church ( I think) to the pastor’s college, then “called” to Kingsway, then “called” to the secular world. Mmmm, things that make you go Hummmmmmmm.
GDfS–
I agree that it is enticing. So is alot of bad stuff. Adultery is enticing, eating five Quarter Pounders is enticing, spending more money than we have is enticing.
If we make rational decisions based on feelings, we are headed for trouble.
Why all of a sudden are we as a people so easily enticed? Why do our emotions dictate where and with whom we worship? Is this why we “feel called” places?
30 years, and others, please could you prove to me from the Bible that we are called to one group of believers and not to another and must stay there until we “feel called” to worship somewhere else?
“In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. “ 2 Timothy 4
If you “feel” weird about a man or a situation, listen carefully. Why is this any different than “feeling called” to a certain church?
RT,
Ha ha, love the enticing thing, but SGM felt like heaven on earth to me at first, during the seduction phase. For me logic and reality were trumped by SG perception and presentation. They are very good at that.
Like it or not, we as humans, feel our surroundings and process them in the context of our neediness and history and family dynamic and countless other things. We enter a “church” too often with our guards down, and also too often suffer dearly for it, BUT we do. We expect authenticity and honesty and love, especially in our early spiritual experience, only again too often to be used, abused, and confused. That is the story of many, regardless of the 20/20 vision of looking back and for the non-feeling rational observer. History is replete with examples!
GDfS
Excellent points. We tend to look for the buzz words of evangelicalism, the music, the books, that signal that we are in a safe place and we let our guard down.
So glad you are free!
There was a mom on here the other day who accused someone from Kingsway of abuse, and also provided a link to an incarcerated individual.
Of course, there are no verified details, this is certainly not proven. It should remind all of us, though, that we need to be viligent to protect the children in our churches.
Most churches have printed and well thought out child safety policies.
But as long as KW is running a tight ship, with at least TWO UNRELATED adults (abusers are often connected to an enabler), at least one female, with any group of kids, you are probably alright.
Most child sexual abuse is committed by males, it important NEVER to have children in the care of two males or two teenagers without a female around.
This is to protect the men as well as the children. Many sicko parents look for likely places to bring lawsuits…we live in an unredeemed world. Two men in a nursery are sitting ducks for these wackos, and juries often prejudge a male who works around children.
Ask to see their child safety policy. If they cannot produce a writen one, or if you do not see it implemented, run to another church in your area.
Around 28:00 or so, Gene says “we are not a corporation”….
…thought that was interesting….
Ellie
What is your take on that comment?
Ellie, why indeed did Gene say they are not a corporation????
Could he be trying to hide SGM’s true identity?
Does he think if one says something often enough and loud enough it will be believed?
Could it be to throw us off the track in knowing how to affect change from within SGM?
Could it have been to make the sheep forget what The Quizzler said recently concerning how to bring change within a corporate structure?
After all…………….. the bottom line is the bottom line!
N.S.L.B.
Brothers and Sisters,
I have felt stirred to write this.
Yesterday I went to the site of Gene Emerson’s Sunday message given to the
King’s Way Church. I was shocked to hear his version of what has transpired
in the decision for Eric Hughes to come back to the Chesapeake Church as
Senior Pastor. The timeline doesn’t make any sense neither does the assurance
that these changes are only to do with these men praying months and months
ago and God showing them that they had other good works to go to other than
what they were currently doing. It makes it sound very spiritual and very nice. I am filled with fear for their souls. There appears to be much twisting and cover-up going on in this movement. Acts chapter 20 “…from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Not only am I concerned about the twisting of situations, but I am also concerned because
of the ordeal itself that I went through. It is a frightening thing to think that
doctrine can be changed in this movement at any time and then subtly put upon
God’s people without their knowledge. It is also a frightening thing that a change
in doctrine can be done by any pastor. It was not sound doctrine that was being put upon me and the other women on “Separation.” Since then I have also become aware that this movement has made changes in other areas of doctrine without our knowledge (Example: The Calvinist position years ago that was so subtly brought in, and the position on the Holy Spirit in 2002,) this is when I knew for certain I could never be a part of Sovereign Grace Ministries again. It is a very dangerous place. I fear for the future of this movement. What will happen when the movment continues to age. Men will die off. Will there be protection for God’s people? There is no doubt that within any movement you will find differences in doctrinal position, but in this movement the people are controlled heavily by the leadership. This is not healthy. We must always walk in the “Spirit.” We must have discernment. We are not taught to use our own discernment in this movement, but we must!!! Had myself and the three couples not aggressively pursued confronting the new doctrine, it would have been completed on paper and then continued to be taught and implemented and forced on women in the church. No one knows how difficult it was to fight this. Know one knows how forceful and strong of a position these pastors were taking. I am very very glad they backed down finally, but the truth is it took exposing. I do not think that exposing someone is truly repentance on their part, and especially if they then go out and twist the circumstances to sound like their stepping down or their making changes is for any other reason than the actual thing that transpired. This all reminds me too much of the President Clinton days.
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
What is spoken behind closed doors has not been matching up with what
is spoken to the church. There has been a pattern of this throughout the Chesapeake ordeal as well as with what others have shared concerning situations in other churches in the movement. I have been baffled over and over again as I hear these versions of what has happened. I do not understand how these men
are able to lay their heads down at night with a clear conscience before God
and man. My fear is that this is really “lying to the Holy Spirit.” We must
remember this account in scripture, and remember this was a “New Testament
Church.” They were under “Grace.” God still requires truth and justice.
Acts 5:1-11
<< Acts 4 | Acts 5 | Acts 6 >>
Ananias and Sapphira
5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of
property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back for himself some
of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the
apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of
the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain
your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it
that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to
men but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and
breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The
young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing
what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you [1]
sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 But
Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the
Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your
husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Immediately
she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men
came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her
beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church and
upon all who heard of these things.”
I do not know how these other men are able to sit by and allow these twistings of words all for the sake of holding together a “corporation.” There seems to be a problem with being a “people pleaser.” It is time to be a “God pleaser.” Matthew 10:28 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [1]
Some of you Pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries need to stand up for
what is “TRUTH.” Is it really worth any of this? “Unless the Lord builds
the Church, they that labor, labor in vain.” You are accountable to God
first. Your fellow brothers need for you to speak the truth to them.
It is not okay to stand by in silence. If you are standing by when the Words
are spoken and they are not the full truth and you do not speak up, then
you are showing you are in agreement to those listening. Whether you speak
up or not, you have given your gesture and seal of approval on what is being
said.
Paul Speaks to the Ephesian Elders Acts 20:17-38
17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the
church to come to him. 18 And when they came to him, he said to them:
“You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the
first day that I set foot in Asia, 19 serving the Lord with all
humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the
plots of the Jews; 20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you
anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house
to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward
God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I am
going to Jerusalem, constrained by [2] the Spirit, not knowing what
will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me
in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 24 But I do
not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I
may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord
Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now,
behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about
proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. 26 Therefore I testify
to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I
did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Pay
careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy
Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, [3] which
he obtained with his own blood. [4] 29 I know that after my departure
fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and
from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to
draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering
that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone
with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his
grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance
among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one’s silver or
gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to
my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have
shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and
remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more
blessed to give than to receive.’”
36 And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with
them all. 37 And there was much weeping on the part of all; they
embraced Paul and kissed him, 38 being sorrowful most of all because of
the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And
they accompanied him to the ship.
Never in scripture do you see the Apostle Paul willing to go along with anything
that was doctrinally off. He stood up against the other disciples on occasion.
It is written out plainly in scripture whenever he opposed them. There was never
a cover-up or twisted story about what really happened. They put it out there
just like it was, and how wonderful to see the integrity in that.
I pray that the pastors of Sovereign Grace Ministries read this and seek
the Lord. This is so so very serious. People’s spiritual and physical lives
are at stake.
We must pray!!!
I always find this strange how Gene Emerson talks about bringing the “gospel” to people in Fredericksburg with this new church plant. This is an organization that usually doesn’t reach and convert non believers according to people’s reports I have read both on here and SGM Survivors. Some have indicated they get most of their members by “poaching” from other churches when they set up a new church plants.
I am sure their source of members in his new church plant will be similar to what has happened with other plants.
Reformed Teacher, in response to your comment,
“Of course, there are no verified details, this is certainly not proven. It should remind all of us, though, that we need to be viligent to protect the children in our churches.”
I am not sure why you made this statement. I have thought about this since I saw your comment and I have tried very hard to not take it personally. This case certainly is proven. This man, revealed in the link, was charged and convicted of sexually abusing children and he did attend the Richmond Church. This man is still currently serving time in a prison facility near Richmond. My motivation for leaving the link and screaming out, for the first time, was for some understanding, my heart is still breaking. My son recently was released from the mental ward at a hospital. The emotions and betrayal that I feel and that I am sure he feels are more than I can ever express in words.
I did do what I thought was right in protecting my son, I contacted the local police in Richmond and the pastors of the Richmond and Virginia Beach church, in 1988, to find out if they knew of any reason why I shouldn’t allow my son to spend time with this man. This man befriended my son through another little boy we had met at Celebration East 1988. This man used this other little boy as a reason to have my son come and visit him in Richmond. He was “helping” care for this other boy and would ask us to allow our son to visit them up in Richmond. Up until this time my son was an innocent young boy, only 11. They, the pastors and police knew of no reason why we shouldn’t allow the friendship and I don’t challenge that. I don’t believe that they knew at this point who this man was. This all took place between the years 1988 and 1994ish, way before Megan’s Law. I can’t say that the church could of prevented what happened to my son but they did nothing to find all potential victims once this monster was revealed. Who in their right mind wouldn’t find and contact everyone everyone known to be involved with this guy?
I was in contact with the Richmond church in 1995 and ‘96 after my son was injured, I wanted to get in touch with Barry, the now convicted felon. My son had been injured and was seriously hurt I wanted to let this man know so that he could be praying for him. Now this was all after he had been charged, but did the church secretary or Gene Emerson even then try to contact us to let us know about the charges that had brought on this man? NO! Even then I explained who I was and this man’s relationship to our family and my son. We had lived in VA Beach and my son would spend weekends, and later lived with this man for a short period of time. I say this to say that the leadership and other members of that church knew my son, as well as my husband and me. They also knew that my son was exposed to this man and they never tried to find us. My son was part of the youth group in Richmond and attended the church, this man served in the youth group. All that I am saying is when it all came out, my son was still of an age where we, his parents, could help him or at least try. We were robbed of any chance to press charges or seek help for our son. We didn’t find out about any of this until 1998 and then quite by accident! We had moved back to our home state but it turns out according to the previous leadership of the Virginia Church that they were never made aware of the situation up in Richmond. Why? I seriously find this hard to believe, why wouldn’t all churches in the vicinity be made aware? They must of known at some point. I can’t prove that, but it is beyond me to think of any reason why Gene wouldn’t make others aware. You are right about the precautions that need to happen when caring for our young children. I know that since this happened SGM as a whole has made great efforts to screen individuals caring for our children and that’s a good thing. I am still mourning that I didn’t protect my son, though God knows I tried. I listened to my pastors who said that I had nothing to fear instead of listening to what God was saying to me. Please keep my son in your prayers. A Mother
Dear A Mother,
I am praying for you and your son, for the mercies and love of God to penetrate your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. I am so sorry for you all and pray Is. 61 for you – Jesus came to heal the brokenhearted. Run into His loving hearts and receive His wonderful love and healing. Take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ and please try hard not to receive the condemnation that is totally from the enemy of God, satan himself. I hope that you too are in counseling with a solid Christian counselor who can truly help you in this your time of need. God bless you and your family.
Dearest A Mother!
I am sorry if I offended you in anyway, please forgive me! I cannot, in my worst nightmare, imagine what this is like for you and your son. I am so very very sorry for your pain and betrayal. Searching my heart, I suspect I would be tempted to murder anyone that hurt my precious son. That you are sane is a testimony to the grace of God.
The link you provided to the incarcerated person had no details as to the case at all. So when I said what I said, I meant to acknowledge that to the person asking about the Richmond church that there had been an allegation of abuse, but that it had not been proven on this blog.
What I should have said, and what I truly meant, was that there had been a mother (you) who had claimed sexual abuse at the church, and that he should contact you for clarification–none of us could give it.
My response was clumsily done, and not well thought out, and hurtful to you.
Please forgive me.
I will pray for you and your family. I am so sorry.
“I was in contact with the Richmond church in 1995 and ‘96 after my son was injured, I wanted to get in touch with Barry, the now convicted felon. My son had been injured and was seriously hurt I wanted to let this man know so that he could be praying for him. Now this was all after he had been charged, but did the church secretary or Gene Emerson even then try to contact us to let us know about the charges that had brought on this man? NO! Even then I explained who I was and this man’s relationship to our family and my son. ”
Unbelievable. God have mercy. How many others were there?
To A Mother,
you wrote, “I listened to my pastors who said that I had nothing to fear instead of listening to what God was saying to me.”
Did the Lord warn you about letting your son spend time with this man? What did God say to you that gave you any indication that it wasn’t such a good idea?
Do NOT blame yourself for this. You are not getting any condemnation from the Lord so do not blame yourself. I do hope that you are seeking counseling also like Walking in Freedom said.
Prayers for you…and I cry with you also.
Mimi:
See this link
http://www.gracechurchoffreder.....p?id=27353
Looks like a pretty healthly church to me. Reformed and Charismatic. How arrogant of SGM to think that they are they only ones God can use to plant a healthly church in Fredericksburg? Sad but typical.
Dear A Mother,
I am so very very sorry for all your son and you and your family have experienced and endured. The painful discovery of it all, I cry with you…there is no pain as when our children are horribly abused. We are praying for you all…praying the love of God will saturate your sons deepest wounds,fears and scars……..and that we will see the day that he walks in wholeness and restoration…our Jesus came to bind up the brokenhearted and set the captives free– I will be praying that for your son.—
In the structure of SGM it seems they give little regard to sexual abuses and activity of perversions (perhaps this is because as they love to proclaim “I am the worst sinner I know)—-paired with the resistance to Holy SPirit—leaves Gods people vulnerable to becoming casualties,repeatedly……..instead of walking in the Light together and hearing His Voice, and truly discerning good from evil as we are empowered to do by Christ dwelling in us and Holy Spirits leading.
Yes, it is unnerving to think the pastors donot communicate with one another when these things occur—or if they do—they keep a code of silence (I suppose for the veneer of the perfect SGMness). The great lack of integrity and discernment on the part of Gene Emerson for not revealing to you and other parents all they knew—is a travesty. And he doesnot learn from experience. He and other SGM pastors donot genuinely hear,much less discern cries for help from their flock. I remember one of the “3 couples” in Chesapeake, during ‘Esthers’ trial, kept hearing the Lord say “God is not mocked”…………and He IS exposing the evil they wink their eye at.
Jeremiah 6:14 “They dress the wound of My people as though it were not serious.”
SGM—– This is sorrowfully serious.
Quizzler,
I would say it’s all of the above! (in your comment 4.27.09 at 11:53 pm)
GDfSGM, my take is that Gene has been doing a little reading lately…. and apparently feels that some SGMers have been also…
Good scripture Waters….right on!
Gene Emerson should be ashamed of himself! How in the world this man remains in his position is totally beyond me. The only reason I believe he remains in the position he has, is that CJ and the other “Apostles” (and yes, I use this term very loosly here) know very well that they have a stooge in him.
Sylvia is right. These men are liars. They first deceive themselves, and then feel no compunction about deceiving others, since their true god is SGM. They’re just a brood of vipers in sheep’s clothing. I have no patience with any of them. They need to be fired, and quickly. Question is, who’s going to do it, and how could it happen ? It can’t, and that’s the sad part. They’re just not accountable. The only thing I can think of is that they’re exposed in the public media, and more people stop supporting the church. A big article in a local newspaper would probably be the best thing for them. Like the people who were hurt badly, they could tell their story to the public, and then word would get around in the Christian community about these deceivers and liars.
Mother-
I’m so sorry about all that has happened to you and your family….
peace to you-mm
You know…
After mother posted, I received emails from some of the good folks here…
“Do you know who she is?” “Could you give me her email address so I can encourage her?”.
You know, Christians loving each other…
CJ, you know my name, my number, and my email address.
Where the hell are you?
Jim,
Great question! CJ (and all the leaders at SGM) – How can you not respond to mother? How can you not act and show Christ’s love? Where is the compassion and desire to minister to mother and her son? Where is your pastor’s heart? Where is the humility that would allow you to see there are major problems in SGM? Does your inaction glorify the Lord?
To the other “Big Dog” leaders who are T4G with CJ (Ligon Duncan, John Piper, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, etc) – call on CJ to address this. By your standing in the Christian community and by your endorsement of CJ/SGM by joining with him and endorsing his books you have effectively endorsed Sovereign Grace Ministries. If you stand on the sidelines you are just as guilty of the damage that is being done by SGM. There are exhaustive examples on this site and others to indicate there is a massive problem that should be getting attention. Please, please call on CJ to act now.
I had missed some posts and was doing some back reading and I have a question after reading Fred’s post:
Certainly, KB contributed to the problems and made things worse especially with the new doctrine on separation that he was writing, which I must add with the approval of Jeff Purswell, Gene Emerson and others.
Are Purswell, Emerson, et al crediting Keith with authoring the “separation doctrine”?
This doctrine was in my sgm church at the latest by 2005 – 2006. It’s got to be coming from the top and not just confined to one “wayward” pastor in the Chesapeake church – what does everyone think?
Yep, and how do they fix all of this? Well, in Sept. Keith will be under the “covering/mentoring” of the “apostle” Gene for 6-9 months at Kingsway, and the plan is to then launch Keith out to be the sr. pastor of another church plant, after Gene fixes all that is missing in Keith. I am NOT encouraged here!
Kind of looks like what they do with wayward priest in another branch of “Christendom.”
Ellie– The “new doctrine” where the bottom line was, women were called to not separate from a husband under ANY circumstance (“Some are called to suffer in this manner”) was written by Keith and as he stated Jeff Purswell was the overseer of this. He was preparing to institute this at Chesapeake last fall when the “3 Couples” began the confrontation and intervention process. However, already, he and Brett had threatened three women with church discipline if they didnot follow their (the pastors) orders to welcome their abusive spouse back into the home. All of these three women have since left the church. —Since your church had already instituted this policy (the same???) back in ’05-’06—as you say, it appears this destructive policy IS being directed from Gaithersberg. Do they go church-by-church to watch where and how it will fly and take root??????? Perhaps that is why no one, Emerson, or KB (or Purswell or CJ) were not alarmed at Keiths attempt to force-feed such a dangerous ’doctrine’. No overseers or leaders in Gaithersberg have taken any responsibility for this man-made dangerous doctrine—does that mean they actually approve of it and endorse it and have plans to slip it in somehow?? Dangerous……….
Ellie, you may have just provided us all with the missing link. Some have thought all along that CJ, Purswell, et al were trying to see how it would float in Chesapeake using Keith as the scapegoat. (At that time, Chesapeake was one of their larger churches.) If it floated without any problems (waves so to speak) then this dangerous doctrine would be passed onto the other SGM churches. Keith just happened???? to fall into their web.
It may still be a very dangerous and possibly “not dead” doctrine. Because of the negative attention it brought, did they just put it on the back burner? Obviously, they did not stop this doctrine on their on but were pressured to disavow it because of Esther and the 3 couples. Very dangerous! People in SGM churches – wake up and be alert!! One very loved, respected and popular English teacher in Chesapeake was asked to read it….did he see any red flags or did he approve it??? I do not know. Quizzler, where are you? So many questions……
Fred,
I checked back in my notes and this doctrine was in our church in 2006.
Specifically, “The bible doesn’t give a category for people to be married and not living together.
How does smg view members who date outside the church?
Ellie said: ”This doctrine was in my sgm church at the latest by 2005 – 2006. It’s got to be coming from the top and not just confined to one “wayward” pastor in the Chesapeake church – what does everyone think?”
Yes Ellie, I think you are absolutely right, this very dangerous doctrine must have been from the top. If your church had this doctrine in 2006, then it really isn’t new in SGM. Thank you so much for revealing this info.
lostone said:
“How does smg view members who date outside the church?”
Well first of all realize that SGM typically frowns on dating and pushes the courtship model. This is the group that has Josh Harris who wrote the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” as their senior pastor of their “flagship” church Covenant Life Church. This courtship approach promotes what they call purposeful relationships, i.e. relationships only with the intent of marriage.
Thus having a dating type of relationship before one is ready for marriage is discourage. Though there intentions may be well, this emphasis has caused a number of problems that many times they don’t want to acknowledge. There also is an expectation that one typically shouldn’t court for a long period of time etc.
With the above being the case I am sure they would frown on dating an outsider even more so than they would another SGM member.
Dating outside the SGM church: In my former SGM church there was an unwritten rule that you only “court” within the church. Those who dare to step outside of this boundary line (and there are those who did) are definitely frowned upon (including their parents who are frowned upon) for the most part. The reason being, the outsider has not been taught in the same way and frankly, there is the unspoken belief that all other churches are inferior.
I have been corrected. The belief in my SGM church that all other churches are inferior was not unspoken.
“The belief in my SGM church that all other churches are inferior was not unspoken.”
Exactly -
“What is deficient in your heart that you would want to bond with someone who is not under the same teaching?”
(With the belief that even courting outside SGM was a potential opportunity for disunity in the body.)
Odd to say the least.
Yea, SGChes has/had the same belief about dating, and was very strongly frowned upon. I remember when JH’s book came out about kissing dating goodbye – I thought how convenient that we wrote that book after he was married. That’s like reading a book on how to raise children from an author who never had children. Give me a break ! After we started leaving SGChes, one of my daughters asked me about dating, and I told her dating was ok with me depending on the circumstances and on the timing as she gets older, and she told me that I was wrong, that SGChes didn’t allow that. That really broke my heart, and that was one more sign of the damage that had not been done to my family while we there. What’s worse is my own guilt for being sucked into that vortex myself, and letting that mess infiltrate my own family. It still breaks my heart to this day. Now that we’re in a better church, I hope that my daughter will not be afraid to want to date appropriately from time to time, with some fine young man. They’re out there, I’ve met a few, and I hope she finds a good one some day. It would bring me no greater joy than to have a happily married daughter.
millertime
Love the word choice of “vortex” that you use. It paints a vivid picture of what SGM is like. The thing about it is that with most Vortexes (doubt that is the proper plural of vortex) it is very obvious that you’re in one being sucked along no matter how hard you try to escape.
However, with SGM, the VORTEX is so subtle initially that you are totally being pulled along by your own volition, or so it seems. When you finally realize what’s happening, you find much of your social network and identity so entrenched with the SG machine, that you too often just go along for another season. Some continue to go along for years; others, just KNOW that they must escape no matter what the cost. Only to realize that once out and detoxed, healing and wholeness, and freedom in Christ begin to take root.
For some of us, the vortex keep us for decades; for others, not so long. Prasie God that there is a sabboth rest for His people, and that rest isn’t found in chasing our tails in the SG machine or any other religous machine. LIFE is in HIM, no matter where we find ourselves at 10am on Sunday mornings.
Millertime,
I can understand how you feel about your daughter. Having 3 kids who are young adults now, I wish for them to have their own faith, to hear from the Lord themselves, to get His mind on important matters such as dating and marriage, and then making decisions without fear. In my experience, PDI/SGM did not teach this well. There was too much control, too much fear of making mistakes. I’ve seen my kids learn more from making a few mistakes (because they have been redeemed by God) than what they could ever learn by simply “doing as they are told”. Also, their being freed from the need to be perfect in every way has not led them to license, but to love and a desire to follow the Lord in a deep way. So, we don’t seek perfect kids, just kids who follow a perfect God, in freedom and grace.
You have been a good dad to get your daughter our of the SGM machine. God will be faithful to take care of her!
Canary,
Nice to see you still on your perch, singing beautifully.
Hey G.D.! My laptop has died, so I have to get to an empty computer in my all-techie family, which isn’t an easy thing, I can tell you. So I’m popping in and out when I can. You’ll be glad to know that my kitty has been pretty docile these past weeks, as he cannot deny nor defend the practices of SGM being noted on this blog recently. I think he’s lost some of his nine lives through sheer exasperation that he can no longer explain his position with any lucidity.
I, on the other hand, am flying free and chirping joyfully in gratefulness to our loving and faithful God. Gotta run. My daughter needs her laptop. The Lord’s blessings to everyone reading here! He is so GREAT!!!
Millertime
You might find my blog of interest where I critique Harris’s IKDG philosophy.
Harris wrote what he wrote based on being a teenager and was something he had to do (kiss dating goodbye) due to his circumstances. It always has surprised me why so many people blindly accepted what might have been right for him to do as a teenager should be the norm for all singles despite their age. Harris wrote his book as more of a testimonial but too many people took it to be a handbook.
Of course one can’t blame Harris for this culture. Though Harris may have championed the “kissing dating goodbye” philosophy SGM has been practicing it pretty much since their inception. It was sad that Harris didn’t share all the problems it has caused over the years when he wrote his book to give it more balance.
Canary
My thought is that “kissing dating goodbye” usually leads to singles learning to avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to do it. This sounds like what you were saying happened with you. Fear of making mistakes sounds like a good description. I also think pastors heard what they wanted to hear about how well IKDG “worked”
I am sure that pat of the problem with the IKDG philosophy is the SGM culture where questioning is discouraged. I am sure it could implemented in a much more constructive manner when people can question and point out he problems and it be implemented in a non legalistic manner. It really shocks me when one imposes something designed more for teenagers on older singles.
I am starting to read Carolyn McCulley’s book “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” In the introduction she talks about a group of women she read Josh Harris’s book and embraced what he had to say. Then she says in a few paragraphs later, that (doing the math) 7 years later most of the women who studied the book with her still weren’t married.
I will be curious to read and see if she even asks if there might be a cause and effect between “kissing dating goodbye” and her and others possible “kissing marriage goodbye.” That is did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to possibly “kissing marriage goodbye?” Josh Harris wrote the forward to the books so I doubt she asks this question. I do know that in at lot of churches there are more single men then women which could lead to some of the women not getting married but McCulley said most of the women still weren’t married 7 years later.
One blog says she does some men bashing in her book, especially older single men. I wonder if she has ever asked if the “kissing dating goodbye” culture has lead to some these older men to be so passive about finding a mate.
Millertime said: “What’s worse is my own guilt for being sucked into that vortex myself, and letting that mess infiltrate my own family. It still breaks my heart to this day.”
Miller, I am right there with you. I have had days (and still do) with such regret and guilt over this very thing. Days of tears and deep sorrow over falling for the lies and allowing their standards, their truths (which were not God’s truths but truths made by man) to affect my family, my marriage, and the way I parented. There have been some days when I didn’t think I could go on because of the guilt and the regret that I have had of falling for the deception and how it affected us. Always looking for sin in myself and in my family. Pointing out the sin, looking for more. So far off the track of the true Gospel. So far off the track of the true Jesus Christ. But then the Lord pours out His grace and mercy and reminds me of His promise …He will restore what the locusts have devoured. He is faithful and I am believing and trusting that He is restoring what has been stolen from us! God’s timing is perfect and often it is a process, may not always look the way I want it to YET but the day is coming when we will see the full restoration!! I am already seeing such blessing and good fruit from leaving our SGM church. God is changing me and is bringing me back to who Jesus is and why He died for me. As one friend reminded me recently, He died because He loves us so much. Yes we were sinners (now we are saints) but the truth is it was His LOVE for us! Our God is faithful and He always keeps His promises!!
Canary, thanks for the quick update. Glad you’re flying free and the cat is still in the cage–where he belongs
BTW, TigerDirect.com is a great place to buy a good new laptop at extremely good prices, but I am sure your tech savvy family already knows that.
Millertime,
Have your daughter read “Boundaries in Dating”, by Drs. Henry Cloud & John Townsend. I find it’s a great book to help Christian singles ”detox” from the indoctrination of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.”
Here’s a quote from the book…
“A few years back I was doing a seminar for singles in the Midwest when the question came from the floor, “Dr. Cloud, what is the biblical position on dating?” At first, I thought I had misheard the question, so I asked the woman to repeat it. And the question came out the same as the first time.
“What do you mean, ‘the biblical position’? ” I asked.
“Well, do you think that dating is a biblical thing to do?” the woman explained.
Once I heard her question, I thought she was kidding, but I soon realized she was not. I had heard people ask about the biblical position on capital punishment or euthanasia, but never on dating.
“I do not think the Bible gives a ‘position’ on dating,” I said. “Dating is an activity that people do, and as with a lot of other things, the Bible does not talk about it. What the Bible does talk about is being a loving, honest, growing person in whatever you do. So, I would have to say that the biblical position on dating has much more to do with the person you are and are becoming than whether or not you date. The biblical position on dating would be to date in a holy way.
“In fact, God grows people up through dating relationships in the same way that he grows them up in many other life activities. The question is not whether or not you are dating. The questions are more along the lines of “Who are you in your dating and who are you becoming in your dating? What is the fruit of your dating for you and for the people that you date? How are you treating them? What are you learning?’ And a host of other issues that the Bible is very clear about. It is mainly about your character growth and how you treat people.”
“So, you think it is okay to date?” she pressed.
“Of course, I do, but it is only okay to date within biblical guidelines, which by the way are not burdensome. They will save your life and help you to make sure you end up with a good person to marry,” I said, chuckling on the inside about how often Christians want a rule. I thought this was the end of it until the same question kept coming up around the country whenever I would speak to singles. Over and over again, I was asked if dating were an okay thing to do or not. I was curious about why people were asking the same question.
So, one day, I asked where these questions were coming from. I was told that a movement was arising from a book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris. The premise of the book is that dating is not a good idea, and many people were giving it up. As I continued to investigate, the movement went even further than the book in some circles. Many Christians were saying that dating was sinful in and of itself; others were at least feeling as if people who were still dating were less spiritual than those who didn’t. It was becoming the “Christian” thing to forego dating. I thought at first that this was just in some circles, but the more I traveled around I was hearing it all over the country.
So we read I I Kissed Dating Goodbye, and in this chapter we will share some of our reactions. We strongly disagree with the idea that all people should give up dating for several reasons. But before we get into the specifics, we want to validate the reasons behind this movement.
No one would take such a stance against dating without good reason, and the reason people are giving up dating seems to be this: pain, disillusionment, and detrimental effects to their spiritual life. In other words, dating has not helped them to grow, find a mate, or become a more spiritual person. So, it makes sense to kiss it good-bye.
And we empathize with this pain. As we have seen over the years working with many singles and being single for a long time ourselves (both of us were well into our thirties before we married), dating can cause a lot of hurt and suffering. Many people become disillusioned in the process, and they feel like they do not know how to make it work. They experience heartbreak, they repeatedly pick the “wrong type,” they can’t find the “right type,” or they find the “right type” and they don’t like him or her as much as the wrong type. They have trouble integrating their spiritual life into dating. And they question what to do with physical attraction and moral limits, as well as wonder when to move from casual dating to a more significant relationship.
For many people the pain and suffering of dating becomes too much, and they are ready for an alternative. And out of this motivation, we concur with the followers of the no-dating movement and its proponents. The pain of dating is not worth it if it does not lead to anything good. We understand Mr. Harris’s motive for writing this book. But we disagree with his conclusion. While we agree that the hurt must stop, we don’t think that dating is the problem. We think people are. In the same way that cars don’t kill people, drunk drivers do, dating does not hurt people, but dating in out-of-control ways does. Paul’s advice to the Colossians is sound: “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules?: Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!’? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence” (Colossians 2:20 ? 23). Paul cautioned the Colossians that making rules and abstaining from certain practices would never develop the maturity they needed to live life.
Human problems are matters of the heart, the soul, one’s orientation toward God, and a whole host of other maturity issues. As Paul says, avoiding certain things you could engage in destructively does not cure your basic problem of immaturity, which is internal not external. You may be immature and not able to handle dating, so you abstain from dating. But, unless you do something to grow up, you will still be immature, and you will take that immaturity right into marriage.
Avoiding dating isn’t the way to cure the problems encountered in dating. The cure is the same as the Bible’s cure for all of life’s problems, and that is spiritual growth leading to maturity. Learning how to love, follow God, be honest and responsible, treat others as you would want to be treated, develop self-control, and build a fulfilling life will ensure better dating.”
Steve240,
Wow, C.M. writes a book about kissing marriage goodbye, and those poor women who follow her are still single? Seven years is a long time. I wonder if the women were taught to trust in the “idea” rather than in the Living God…
G.D., Thanks for the computer tip!
Hey, Kindred! Nice to see you in these here parts.
Canary, glad to see you fly back in here too. Hope you’re feeling well and strong.
Steve240 said:
“did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to … “kissing marriage goodbye?”
What an excellent question! I hope single women following Josh Harris’ advice will ponder the connection and go read Boundaries in Dating by Drs. Henry Cloud & John Townsend, who are experts in their field.
Joshua Harris was homeschooled and didn’t attend college. Some commenters have previous remarked that Josh didn’t complete Pastors College. Instead, he lived with the Mahaney family when he moved from Oregon to Maryland to be groomed for the Senior Pastor position at CLC, and CJ taught Josh everything he knew.
Could that be the problem?
Wanda
Canary
The connection between holding to the “kissing dating goodbye” and then the majority of women 7 years later not being married sure seems more than coincidental IMO. I am sure that connection is something that Carolyn McCulley never asks in her book. I am starting to read it so maybe be proven wrong but really doubt she asks that question. Again, Josh Harris wrote the introduction to her book so doubt she makes the connection or even asks the question.
From what I have seen, the “kissing dating goodbye” concept becomes something almost sacred and in certain circles like SGM it assumed to be superior without problems and thus unassailable. Thus it is doubtful people in groups like this would even ask this question or even make the connection. It must be something else in their mind that caused this to happen since “kissing dating goodbye” is always superior in their minds to dating. One person I have talked with almost called the devotion to IKDG a “cult like” following.
You can go to Google Books and read the introduction to her book online.
AKS
Thanks for posting that information on Boundaries for Dating. I knew one of his books was almost written as a response to the “kissing dating goodbye” concept. I have one blog entry where I quote Cloud where he says not dating is “harmful”
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007.....courtship/
As you allude to, Harris doesn’t have much education and wrote his book at a young age based on his teenage years. On the other hand Dr. Henry Cloud has a PHD with many years experience counseling etc. Seeing the difference in education and experience should give you an idea who you should be more apt to listen to on this.
One criticism I have with Cloud is that he almost overemphasizes dating almost to the other extreme IMO.
Just for clarification, I bring this up about the connection so that others can learn from this and not repeat past mistakes. As the saying goes, those who don’t study and learn from the past are destined to repeat it.
Fred,
I checked back in my notes and this doctrine was in our church in 2006.
Specifically, “The bible doesn’t give a category for people to be married and not living together.
That erroneous doctrine was being passed off as scripture as far back as 2000 in another church in Maryland. I heard it directly from two pastors who had graduated the PC within 2 years of telling me that hurtful silliness.
I can’t say more here, but Jim if you want the whole disgusting story I’ll email it to you. It isn’t my story to tell so I can’t share specifics.
WOW FreeIndeed!! 2000 indeed! This erroneous doctrine was being presented in Chesapeake as a new doctrine. Things are pretty fishy and it all makes me wonder, what is really going on!
it’s all very interesting, doncha think…?
I told Carole this in an email and will share it here: I’m convinced that this stupid doctrine is directly from CJ. He teaches it, but won’t allow himself to be recorded saying it. Every one who repeats that crap is a fresh graduate of the PC.
Went again last sunday to kingsway, every time i go it makes me sick to my stomach to hear GE speak such lies. his pep talk on giving to the church had everyones checkbook out. only wish i could get my “friend” to see this place is controlling. some may ask why i go with my friend, its a long story.
Lostone,
Did you get to see all the people walk forward with their pledges cards for the “partnership fund” BUT “NO PRESSURE!!!” I remember sitting there, listening to his not so subtle pep talks one year, going forward with my pledge card, and then walking back and seeing the sadness on my friend and his wife who were not able to give because he lost his job that year. They didn’t have anything to give that year, so they sat their while most people around them went forward with their little pledge card, looking at them as they passed, making them feel like little worms—BUT NO PRESSURE!!!–don’t you know?
yes i did i stood there laughing on the inside. GE said on top of my 10% my family gives 5% extra but there is no pressure to be like him. but it seems like everyone there wants to be like him so im sure there are people that will give more than 5%. this makes me so sad for the sheeple. its all about cash and control. whats scary to me it seems if GE said lets all jump off a bridge for sgm most would.
Hi Guys,
Wow I am so sorry to hear about the SMG Church. I thought I was the one that didn’t fit. I was there when it was the Harbor and Southside. I stayed for 8 yrs trying to “fit” into the mold. I have to say I left wounded and bleeding. I have a wonderful relationship with the Lord but I still have not found a church that I can put my heart into. I feel like I was truly damaged by the “care” that was provided in the 8 yrs I stayed there. I felt the Lord brought me there, looking back I believe it was to be a thorn in the side of leadership. They preached about their perfect church, family life, how the people of the church loved each other and cared for each other. Being a single mom with two sons I saw the church in a different light. I have to say I grew a lot spiritually, on my own, because there was only the Lord I to trust in. He met our every need, always. I was so glad when I felt released from being there. I was once told by “leadership” that I must be doing something wrong because my sons and I were poor. I tithed when we had no food in the house. I worked at the 700 club which was the only job I could find and was told I was only there for the prestige. These comments were made by the pastors. I don’t know how I survived looking back.
Anyway it’s sad to see that instead of turning into a Godly church they just continue to turn out the walking wounded. I am still actively looking for a church it’s been a challange but I keep looking. Your’s in Christ.
Oh, Desert Rose! Have you tried the Chesapeake Vineyard in Deep Creek (George Washington Hwy)? If not, go there tomorrow, find Oscar Richardson, and tell him I sent you. You will be loved, my dear friend!
http://chesapeakevineyard.wordpress.com/about/
Megan Hoyt
Thanks Freedom Fighter,
I am no longer in Virginia, my children have grown, I am married to a wonderful man and living in CO. Our Father is truly faithful. The church thing bothers me though, I was just talking to a friend , who was at the church the same time I was and I just realized it has been 14 years since I left and still have unresolved issues. It’s amazing how a group of people can effect your life. One thing the Lord taught me through all this was: To put your faith and trust in God and not in man. I am thankful that my friend told me about this website it’s healing to be able to share this with others that have gone through the same thing.
Hi Desert Rose,
What a lovely name. I live in Colorado, too. I’m just outside of the Springs. Are you anywhere nearby?
I left PDI 13 years ago, and still work through understanding what happened, as I try to help others get through their dismemberment. I am forever learning, post PDI/SGM, because that church group was such a big part of my life for so many years (I began in the early Fairfax church in 1979 at the age of 18, and was married there 6 years later). They were my family. People who love tenaciously tend not to forget as easily when broken relationships are involved. I honestly feel no bitterness, just sadness sometimes at the many lost friendships I endured because of leaving the group. However, as in your life, the Lord has been faithful to keep me and my family in His great hands.
I have not been able to connect with a church, either. My husband and older kids visit various places. I have gone on occasion, but see nothing different from what I left. It is like looking for a new wine skin, but only finding old ones. It just isn’t a good fit. So I understand. What is so wonderful is that we have learned to walk with the Lord on our own, to have fellowship with friends outside of churchdom, and to keep growing in grace. My husband encourages me that, one day, the Lord will bring us to our proper place. I know others might not understand my reasons for avoiding the old wineskin, but it is where I am at right now on my journey. Anyway, big hugs from a fellow Colorado-ian.
Desert Rose,
I will be praying for the things past. For me part of the reason why the healing takes so long, is because EVERONE is OK with the abuse I went through..I am sorry. It is hard being single. It is about our personal walk with God. Something has to be “broken” before we can see.
Fred, we were told all other churches are bob the builder churches….that is compared to Sovereign Grace Ministries..
In my X Sovereign Grace Ministries Church, we had a guess speaker. Everyone was asked to “bless” this person…well, the pastor gave alright, HE GAVE OUT OF THE BUILDING FUND….so everyone else gave personally and he gave from monies, that WE the church had dilligently saved. When confronted on this, it became a spin the story, submitt to my authority issue.
The Carolyn McCully book was a mandatory study in my X Sovereign Grace Ministry Church, and even the married women had to purchase the book…hmmmmm isn’t that SPECIAL…..
Just my 2 cents…
charlie,
Worth more than 2 cents!
Charlie when I was at Southside church I felt I was there as an intercessor. Maybe that is still my call this time praying for the ones who are still hurting and being hurt. This is really hard to see what the lasting fruit of this church really is.
Canary
. Glad there is a sister out there so close.
I live in Colorado Springs Small world
Wow Canary I really know how you feel about finding another church. This site is showing me how I am not alone. This is a place of healing.
Desert Rose,
It is so true that this is a place where the Lord can heal people. We are the Body, edifying and encouraging one another to continue in the Faith.
It is nice to know there is someone nearby going through similar experiences. We leave up in W.P., on 35 acres, with Pikes Peak in the back yard. It is so beautiful! I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else!
You certainly are not alone.
Welcome Desert Rose, so glad that you are here!
The Carolyn McCully book was a mandatory study in my X Sovereign Grace Ministry Church, and even the married women had to purchase the book…hmmmmm isn’t that SPECIAL…..
I don’t remember the married women at CLC being made to purchase McCulley’s book. I do remember being glad some of them read it. Being a single woman in the SGM world was a nightmare all of it’s own. We were expected to babysit at the drop of a hat, for no money though they would pay teen-aged girls. After all, for us pitiful single women who weren’t holy enough or good enough to get married had nothing better to do and the married ladies would often call it “your ministry”. We were expected to express nothing but contentment that we were single, God forbid we would ever let there be a hint of sadness or disappointment show that we were still childless and single. And for the love of all that is holy, do not ever express sadness about being childless on Mother’s Day. Being friends with a married couple meant that you were often relegated to family activities only because adult activities were all reserved for couples only.
We single ladies were to honor the single men all the flipping time. Even when all they did was moon about upset that none of us were worthy of them since none of us were Carolyn Mahaney. The single guys were usually looking for some perfect version of some woman that didn’t exist.
So, I was just glad some married women got some perspective from the cheap seats. From my single perspective, when a friend would get married I knew I had lost her to the married set. Married women I had tried to befriend would suddenly swarm all over my newly married friend like locusts. They forgot that they had overlooked her consistently for years when she was a lowly single. My friends were all sucked into the “couples” lifestyle of the church, even if they had sworn not to be after years of losing friends to their husbands. I’m not talking here of an obviously necessary change in relationship after marriage. I mean that these women were, for all intents and purposes, lost to me as friends.
The only married women I could count as actual friends were women who joined the church from the outside with one or two exceptions. Some women who were going through some insane weirdness at the hands of the pastors would suddenly realize that single women were as low on the food chain as they were. At least single men were still men. Single women couldn’t even breed new church members.
Free Indeed, that is sad. I’m so sorry you suffered so much as a single person. I read a book once that was all about the failure of the church to appropriately serve single women, especially single mothers — wish I could think of the title. Desert Rose, I may have known you back in the day. If you want, click on the words Freedom Fighter to contact me. I must have known Fred, too, but I would need a last name to confirm that.
I will be praying for you all! It’s tough to sort through everything, but in the end, God will prevail. Faint not, dear ones!!
Free Indeed, I agree with Freedom Fighter. I am so sorry for your pain and loneliness, your feelings of abandonment. I found friendships very challenging at CLC–as a single and as a married woman. I longed for friends, but everyone seemed too busy with whatever “season of life” they were in.
It may have looked like the married women and moms were having all the fun, but to be a married CLC “lady” was to be invisible, subsumed into husband and children. We could only serve in children’s ministry–for years and years, but could only be helpers so as to encourage the men in leadership of the Puppy Dogs classroom.
All the meetings and events were both mandatory and adults only–and folks only wanted to “serve” the leaders. We often couldn’t afford childcare–and the leaders didn’t have any troubles getting babysitters, so they assumed we were just being stubborn and resistant.
Click on my name to see the other side–and I would love to talk further, if you’d like. I’m still here in G’burg.
Free Indeed,
I was a single woman in SGM and your story is not new sadly enough. Did you get told as well to “allow room for single men to lead in your life?” This is Carolyn McCulley’s teaching for single women. And this teaching was as recently as 6 weeks ago posted on the GirlTalk blog for even more to read. It’s horrific.
I think that teaching alone is by far the single most dangerous teaching SGM has for singles…it produced devastating results in me. Because, of course, I submitted and followed their counsel…it creates a horrible dynamic not intended for people who are not married to one another.
Keep pressing on, the truth will set us free
Having been both a single and a married woman in my SGM days, I see both sides. As a single, I was expected to babysit for free, and help in moving folks from place to place. I did receive some attention from a leader’s wife, who in turn helped me through a terrible time, for which I will forever be grateful. I think I was asked on their beach vacation to help with the children, but oblivious me didn’t understand that. I was obtuse enough to believe they just loved me and wanted my company! What they must have thought of me! Bad, bad servant. The control was not as blatant during those early days.
Loneliness was very real, but I was encouraged to trust the Lord for my future. This I have to say was a good thing. However, I was also taught that I should be ready to take whomever God had for me as a husband, even if I found him physically unappealing, Fortunately, the man that came along for me was everything a good God could promise, and I didn’t have to commit my life to servitude and unhappiness with a guy I couldn’t love “like that”.
After marriage, it was as though I was propelled into a desert. Single friends disappeared. Perhaps that is because I was so involved with my husband, though I remember making efforts with one friend in particular. She had cooled towards me, for some reason ( we did ask her along on our beach vacation, but silly me just wanted her friendship. She assumed I wanted a babysitter. Oblivious once again). There really did seem to be an invisible line between singles and married, but I don’t know who put it there.
Once I was married, the leader’s wife who looked out for me seemed to disappear from my radar. I was no longer “in” with her. Weird. I still don’t understand that, except that my husband and I were not in leadership. That was the time when leaders seem to begin focusing on other leader type people.
This was in the early eighties. As the control aspects have only become more blatant through the years (pastors standing in the very stead of God ) and from what I’m reading here, I assume things have only gotten worse. I’m so sorry that a single woman would be made to feel less important than anyone else. Married women weren’t much higher on the totem pole. Sadly, children were on the bottom. There are going to be a lot of hurt adults, eventually, who were never allowed to think for themselves as SGM kids. They will either become rebellious, rejecting all things spiritual, or perhaps become worse than the ones who raised them, filled with unholy leaven.
FreeIndeed, I’m sad that you went through what you did. Our value is not based on what a person says we are. It is based on what Christ did for us, on who God sees us to be because of grace. You hang in there and keep following Jesus like white on rice. I save my wing cuddles for those who seem the most hurt. You get one from a sympathetic canary who wishes she could hug you in person. Keep the faith!
Juli,
But look at you now! You are so free. The Lord as your Husband is leading you so well, and using your life to edify others. It is a beautiful thing, my friend…
I would think the worst thing would be is that a single woman is not allowed to use her status as a gift, only as a servant.
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for baby-sitting. Breaking up 4 year olds arguments has given me many a moral dilemma.
But it’s as if being single is more of a curse. And deep down, I think they view marriage as a curse. The single years are viewed as a boot camp and you should thank them for the “training” you are getting.
Abby, your observations are too right! And ultimately, it isn’t about being single or married, male or female, it is about knowing who you are in Christ, knowing your identity, and being real with yourself, God, and others. This is the aspect that is missing I think..but each of us suffer silently under the oppression of assumed standards and expectations thrust upon us by others – and dismiss our emotional reactions as bad, sinful, or prideful. So we never deal with what is really churning inside of us or why we feel the way we do.
We need to be real with how we feel and not apologize for it. I for one was ticked off at being told I should submit to a single man simply to give him opportunity to lead. If a man can’t figure it out on his own, then it sucks to be him. It is NOT my responsibility to encourage, equip or teach a brother who is single to man up. I don’t want that job. And I can’t imagine why any single woman in her right mind would.
Canary – thank you…I will forever champion the ability to be ourselves and the need to find our identities as essential to any growth, especially spiritual.
Can I just thank Carole (and the other sweet women on this blog) who have prayed for us and been there to offer support and hold up our arms when weary. Especially during times when our own families were not.
Happy Mother’s Day!
I can’t tell you how intensely thrilled I am to be in the church God has given me. They just don’t care what “season” of life you are in! In 5 years I haven’t been asked to babysit one single time. Not ONCE!!!
But then, all the women are treated well. And the men. And the children too. Crazy how balanced theology doesn’t bend itself to abuses.
I know that women, married and single, are offered only the worst bit of the SGM world.
FreeIndeed
I am also sorry to hear about your bad experience a single woman at CLC. Around when were you there/leave?
It is good by reading the book that the married women develop some empathy for single women etc.
I left in the early 90′s. The atmosphere for the singles wasn’t that good. This was before Josh Harris came out with his infamous book but CLC has since their inception taught some form of “kissing dating goodbye” and singles doing things in groups (with those of the opposite sex). That teaching made, from what I saw, made the singles almost afraid of those of the opposite sex. Single men were reluctant to try and do things with single women since they were always fearful of “leading a girl on” as was taught not to do.
As a result, one didn’t see nearly the interaction between single men and women that would normally occur in most churches. I would hear singles talk about the problems but remember talking with one singles pastor and he was under the impression that things were just great. One person who had left the church but had been in lay leadership in the church at one time said that pastors heard what they wanted to hear. There also wasn’t a lot of people inviting people over and socializing that might have occurred in the past in the church.
This all resulted in at least some lonely singles (men and women).
I didn’t mind babysitting at all. I got to eat dinner with a family before the parents left, and talk and share my day. I got to be with little ones and enjoyed playing games and reading books to them and watching them grow drowsy.
Since I didn’t have any family in the area, I didn’t get to do these things with my own nieces and nephews. When I needed help when my car would break down or for other things, the family I babysat for would help me. It wasn’t all one-sided.
That 2 or 3 hours that I stayed with the kids was basically the only time that Mom got to go out without her kids. And I know I appreciated the singles who would watch my very active little ones later on when I got married and was overwhelmed with being on duty 24/7.
I liked spending time with singles while my husband stayed with our kids because they were able to do things as friends with me, unlike some other married women who couldn’t do anything without their husband.
lostone said:
“yes i did i stood there laughing on the inside. GE said on top of my 10% my family gives 5% extra but there is no pressure to be like him. but it seems like everyone there wants to be like him so im sure there are people that will give more than 5%. this makes me so sad for the sheeple. its all about cash and control. whats scary to me it seems if GE said lets all jump off a bridge for sgm most would.”
Recently at SGM Survivors someone posted the property information for C.J. Mahaney. It was posted on this blog a little while ago.
I believe what the property records are showing is that C.J Mahaney gave to one of his daughters and son in-law a house that he paid $131K in 1986 now valued at $500K. Mahaney was then able to pay cash (no mortgage) for another home valued at $695K.
There aren’t a lot of people that can afford to do that for their children. Echoing what someone else said, I am sure Mahaney has and has for some time a pretty significant income which explains how he can do that. When one adds up all the honorariums, book royalties, and salary from SGM I am sure he does quite well financially.
I wonder if GE is in a similar situation. “Nice” to know they are pushing for money when the group’s leader since to be doing so well financially.
Millertime said:
“After we started leaving SGChes, one of my daughters asked me about dating, and I told her dating was ok with me depending on the circumstances and on the timing as she gets older, and she told me that I was wrong, that SGChes didn’t allow that. That really broke my heart, and that was one more sign of the damage that had not been done to my family while we there.”
Even Josh Harris is now saying in his latest IKDG “update” message, “Romance Revisited”, that the title of his book was “confusing.” He said that he could have said I kissed “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye but that would be too long of a title for a book.
Of course Harris isn’t that forthcoming with this “clarification” (he doesn’t write this on his blog for example). Unfortunately so many people have taken what Harris has written, including people within SGM, that any form of dating is wrong. Also, what Josh Harris says and what the culture is truly like in SGM can be two separate things.
Desert Rose – Glad to hear you are FREE!!! I attended as the same time as you. What the pastors did is just insane. The whole “single women serve the single men” is insane -talk about bondage!!!!! Unfortunately, everyone is SGM is in bondage to someone else, aside from cj. Females in SGM have it the worst, considering the misoginist views pushed down from the top.
jh’s book and his “clairifcation sermons” have caused pleantly of damage to people all over sgm – he hasn’t learned that trying to elicit behavoir through control often has an undesired effect.
The “courtship” thing was in place in SGM when I arrived in 91. It was only solidified into stone when Harris wrote the book. I remember being really sad that Harris got married so young. I can’t think of a single pastor who made it past 30 still single. None of them have a clue about older singles. *insert rolled eyes here* Everytime I would get the “I understand about being single” speech I would remind the speaker that being single until you graduate college and being single into your 40′s are two entirely different things. The people in leadership never agreed.
Ellie, I never minded babysitting for families I had a relationship with, it was the people I didn’t know at all who wouldn’t normally even talk to me who were suddenly all chummy and then sneak attacked me with the babysitting question. The people who ONLY ever talked to be when they needed babysitting were the ones who would tell me that babysitting their kids was my “ministry”.
Ah, FI, I getcha.
Those were the ones that I never gave “too much” information to, lol!
Like when they asked if I was “busy” on a certain day…”well, I’m not sure…why do you ask”?
A couple of things…
There was a comment up for a brief time that had some inside info about the pastors conference. I could not confirm the statements made, and had 2 SGM pastors (one a secret friend of the blog) tell me that the statement was inaccurate. Just wanted to do some house keeping.
Regarding singles, as a cgl, I know that I completely under-served or cared for a single lady in our group, along with a lady who’s husband did not attend. I deeply regret this.
Carole and I were married when I was 21 and she was 20. There is no way I could understand what life was like for a single person in their late 20′s (or wiser), particularly a single woman. If anyone should have read Carolyn McCulley’s book (assuming it’s any good), it was me.
This is really a subject the men in sgm should think deeply about. I really wish I had.
FreeIndeed said:
“The “courtship” thing was in place in SGM when I arrived in 91. It was only solidified into stone when Harris wrote the book. I remember being really sad that Harris got married so young. I can’t think of a single pastor who made it past 30 still single. None of them have a clue about older singles. *insert rolled eyes here* Everytime I would get the “I understand about being single” speech I would remind the speaker that being single until you graduate college and being single into your 40’s are two entirely different things. The people in leadership never agreed.”
It was actually Larry Tomczak in 1978 that originally taught one form of courtship. The emphasis at that time was that people should do things in groups vs. dating one on one with those of the opposite sex. I heard at least one tape where Mahaney taught this same idea and said they had found it worked better doing it this way.
I agree with you that most pastors married young and thus have no concept of older singles. I am sure that is partly why they impose on older singles a system that is more appropriate for teenagers and not older singles.
Mahaney is a prime example of someone marrying young. He would often describe how immature he was when he married. I have asked that maybe this is one of the big problems is that he sees all singles as immature like he was. Maybe this is why he insists on a system that works better for teenagers.
Let’s not forget CJ’s use of illicit drugs which he acknowledges publicly. I never used drugs, so I cannot relate to his wayward behavior when he was young.
When I was a teenager and young adult, I always had my life under control, and that behavior has continued throughout my adult life. I am a role model for my daughters, and I have taught them how to treat their bodies as a temple. The Holy Spirit indwells them, and they are not to defile themselves. That’s a concept that young people can understand. It’s too bad SGM has to use rules ad nauseum rather than teaching its young people how to date responsibly.
Jim:
Nice post at 7:16 p.m. Thanks for your integrity about what appears on this blog so that it can have clean reputation in its call for reform.
Jim,
We made the decision to leave, so I am changing from Still in SGM but thinking to Walking Wounded. I was interested in your 7:16 p.m. post as well. I had asked my pastor about the conference (wondering if anything would be said about issues) and all I had heard was glowing reports about how wonderful the teaching was. Not that I expected anything more than that the teaching was exceptional.
Walking Wounded,
Love your Gravatar. It says so much about what we are doing, here.
I’m so glad I’m free. Freedom Fighter I’m not sure how to get a hold of you through that website. Canary I look out at Pikes Peak everyday too. It’s in our backyard
. I work across from it. I love Colorado there is so much beauty here. You know honestly I am stunned that so many people have felt the way I’ve felt. I feel healing everytime I Come here.
Desert Rose,
So glad to hear that you are healing!
Much love to you,
a long time friend
Desert Rose and Canary–
Apparently you live next door to each other.
Grab a bag lunch and carry a red helium balloon and walk towards Pike’s Peak. When you run into each other, enjoy lunch together.
Love,
A sister who is jealous of you western mountian-dwelling women.
Oops, Desert Rose, I thought my email address would pop up when you clicked on my name. I don’t mind posting it. It’s creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
I am so jealous of you guys in Colorado! I would love to live there. So beautiful!
RT, That was a wonderful (and hilarious) suggestion. Desert Rose, make sure the balloon is really big, so’s I can see it without my glasses on!
Freedom Fighter, It’s a great place for a vacation! You even have friends here you can mooch off of…
Desert Rose, I know what you are saying. If only I’d had this blog during my after-days of leaving SGM, I might have healed so much more quickly. There is something soothing and truth-revealing about knowing you aren’t insane, that others went through such similar experiences. The Lord is good to give us each other, and to give us clarity on the WHY’s…
Yes a blog back then would have been nice. I’m happy that the Lord has brought me here to this website now. RT that’s awesome love the balloon idea. It certainly would need to be a giant balloon
Jim, also regarding your 7:16 post: There are millions of things I regret from my time in SGM, mostly of the arrogant, over bearingly and obnoxious kind of stupidity that grows from the conceit that I was in THE BEST church. Ugh. All stupidly swallowed whole and regurgitated until I began to see the light. I’ve righted what I could with those whom I could.
Everyone I couldn’t get to: I’m sorry I was a horse’s patoot back then. I wish I could go back. It wasn’t until I understood how irrevocably apart from the grace of the gospel that the arrogance that hurt me was the same arrogance I weilded so clumsily and hamhandedly.
If you ladies do the whole walk with the balloon thing, please describe it here. That makes me laugh.
FreeIndeed,
I can so relate to your post (7:23). The pride, the misplaced confidence and certainty that we were “doing it right”, coupled with fear of man, the desire to fit the mold… UH. I too am sorry to those that I wounded.
Hi all,
I haven’t been on for a while, as work has really been busy. Have been reading, but not posting.
I thought you might like to see this. A friend invited us to visit their new church, and OF COURSE I read the website first. This blows me away. Undoubtedly this concept is becoming universal today.
This church is a “church plant” out of a group of churches in South Africa. From the site info, there are quite a few popping up…….Okay, here is the “quote” from their STATEMENT OF FAITH, “11. With regards to submission to authority, we believe in the principle of being in authority because you are under authority. As such, it is understood that membership shall be subject to submission to authority in matters pertaining to church governance, doctrine and personal behavior. Talk about NO room for free will or choice.
At least they have the courage to put it right out there on paper for all to see. No room for saying, “I didn’t know”. I think I am still in shock that it is so blatantly written that they expect to have authority over personal behavior!!!???!!!.
Well, just thought I would throw this out there. This group seems to have the same growth/mission doctrine….church plants in major cities, and certainly has the same view on authority….Scary uh??
MiMi
Hi everyone,
I’ve been reading here for awhile and just wanted to say “Thank you” for posting your experiences. It’s so helpful to know that all the things that our family went through at our church wasn’t because we were horrible inferior Christians.
(I’m writing this from my iPod touch. I hope it will post with no problems!)
NeedToRest,
Welcome!
Call me a geek, but posting from your iPod touch is just too cool
NeedToRest,
I love your name. I hope you find the sabbath rest that is for every believer (Hebrews), and that you know that you are not alone.
I previously stated:
“I am starting to read Carolyn McCulley’s book “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” In the introduction she talks about a group of women she read Josh Harris’s book and embraced what he had to say. Then she says in a few paragraphs later, that (doing the math) 7 years later most of the women who studied the book with her still weren’t married.
I will be curious to read and see if she even asks if there might be a cause and effect between “kissing dating goodbye” and her and others possible “kissing marriage goodbye.” That is did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to possibly “kissing marriage goodbye?”
(portions deleted)
One blog says she does some men bashing in her book, especially older single men. I wonder if she has ever asked if the “kissing dating goodbye” culture has lead to some these older men to be so passive about finding a mate. ”
I had some discussions with the author of the blog that I thought said Carloyn McCulley was “male bashing.” He corrected me and indicated that it was her but another author whose book he was also discussing int this blog entry was “male bashing.” Thus I want to correct this item. I was another author that was “male bashing.”
I still stand with my other question of whether this group of women embracing “kissing dating goodbye” resulted in most of them still not being married 7 years later. It sure sounds like the two events are more than coincidental.
Steve,
You said, “I still stand with my other question of whether this group of women embracing “kissing dating goodbye” resulted in most of them still not being married 7 years later. It sure sounds like the two events are more than coincidental.”
Sounds like the darker side of arminianism. If your God was sovereign, you’d know that these women were single because that was the path God had chosen for them.
Just teasing, bro…
Canary and Desert Rose…
I will be in Colorado too, soon enough! We refugees should get together..
Maybe we can start a church plant there..ahahah I am SOO kidding about that! Of course a church with 3 women starting it would bring LOTS of criticism from SGM..maybe we SHOULD do it..no, no, just kidding again…
but I guess we aren’t refugees anymore, that implies no place to call our own…now we are fellow sojourners…
Ahhh, Juli, you sure know how to ruffle some feathers…which one of us will be the apostle (with a little “a”, of course)? Since SGM won’t let women teach (except the exceptional few), we will have to sit in the silence and listen to THE Teacher. Hmmm…maybe that wouldn’t be so bad! But please, no membership papers to sign. How about a hug and a handshake, agreeing that we will seek the Lord together? Now that is refreshing.
Jim said:
“Sounds like the darker side of arminianism. If your God was sovereign, you’d know that these women were single because that was the path God had chosen for them.
Just teasing, bro… ”
It sure does. LOL We certainly have different perspectives on sovereignity and have agreed to disagree on that.
I haven’t digested McCulley’s book yet but don’t think she comes out and says God is sovereign and the reason you aren’t married is God’s sovereignity decided that.
What is life w/o humor.
Friends, I just have to say my heart is full of thankfulness to God for all of you!
And can I please join the Colorado church? pleeze?
We’re still a bit up the road from COS but I can see Pike’s Peak too!
Today I’ve spent my “free time” – ok, I’ve neglected some other chores – to get caught up on this thread and a few thoughts stick out. First of all my heart breaks for every single episode of sexual abuse that has happened and double-breaks for the dishonor of any coverup! As a mom I can’t even imagine the heartbreak of Mother and the rest. And it scares me to death that it happened in one of the Denver churches, of course.
Our current pastor is all excited about the T4G group, and the out-of-hand comment he made about the survivors site was that my DH should watch out for a lot of bitterness. (gee, where could he have heard that???) Well, I am here to report that all I read in this comment thread is compassion for God’s people, the Bride of Christ, Love for our Word, God’s Scriptures, and a righteous “Passion for His Presence” – to coin a long-lost phrase.
And I see a passion for the Holy God to be lifted up in integrity and with all the glory He is due.
God bless you all. Oh and the latest idea for a CO church plant TRULY had me laughing! Desert Rose, Canary, Juli, RT, thank you for that fun, mischievous thought, and the image of all of us with red balloons!
Steve 240 RE: May 11 post,
I am an older single female 50 never married and christian for 30 years. Hmm while I have been in a PCA for last 7 years most of all prior time has been non denominational shepherding churches so SG’s problems are not new to me. I saw the handwriting on the wall when I attended there for a short time.
I think people push early marriage now because of sexual immorality and lack of self control, they think marriage will fix the problem.
Gone are the days from the holiness preaching I was exposed to early on in waiting for God to bring someone into your path you is a good match in every area of life in terms of gifting and maturity. I know few couples you can say that. Most learn and grow through the death that marraige brings and if marry early you have no choice but to die and adapt because you don’t know enough yet or who God has called you to be.That’s why young couples need so much support. It’s wierd and still confuses me when so much literature and books by christian counselors SO encourage much preparation and growth prior to marraige to avoid it becoming a counseling project. But who really listens and does that? People get tired of waiting so they convince themselves or others this is the person and after “I do” it is.
I don’t know what the answer is anymore but it seems to lean towards staying single is better according to Paul. I only have to get through another 20 years or so of this life anyway I’ve made it this far. Sometimes maybe to much is made about marriage after all. When done right it is a holy calling. I like the catholic approach to some of it in Christopher Wests ministry and Theology of the Body. If I saw more couples who really are a showcase to the world how Christ treats and loves his church it can really be a great witness.
Thoughts?
Debbie
With regard to your last post, I am not sure people push marriage early now due to sexual immorality as you indicate.
One theory I have with courtship is that it that is a way for parents to control their children through marriage. Maybe with the fears that these parents have of their abandoning Christ, they think that is they control them through marriage it will be that harder for them to fall away.
I wouldn’t call marriage “death” like you did, but it certainly brings a change in person’s life when they get married. They have to give up some personal things for the betterment of their marriage. There can be advantages in marrying younger since you both grow up together etc.
I remember hearing teaching that taught one to be pretty passive in finding a spouse. I call it the “meditate in a field” type teaching as people have indicated that Isaac was doing that when his wife was brought to him. I don’t agree with this type of mentality due to a number of reasons and have a blog entry where I discuss this.
You indicate that you now don’t know what the answer is. Maybe the problem is that so many groups have taught a one size fits all type of teaching vs. allowing for different approaches that work better for different individuals and circumstances.
Steve240
Defended,
I didn’t know you live in CO, too. If you can see Pike’s Peak, you aren’t too far away from the rest of us!
Some day, whether on earth or in heaven, we will meet, and we must all carry red balloons. RT has some great ideas, but this was a doozy! She cracks me up. RT, want to join our CO church? We will let you have a podium and mic all to yourself!
Defended – I have heard leadership in SGM churches make comments like “it’s no wonder people have sexual immorality, they hit puberty at 14 and we expect them to wait until their 20′s to get married – it used to be people didn;t have to wait so long after hitting puberty to get married – shame on us for having kids wait so long to get married”
Freedom,
Uck, married before a kid is 20? Whatever happened to self-control, given by the Holy Spirit? I didn’t even know who I was at 19 or 20. What about education? Wow, this amazes me. What a bunch of baloney. Isn’t it nice to be free from such teaching?
Canary – yes it is great to be FREE. Speaking of education, I have heard church leaders say the college is a waste of time and money for a woman because they need to have kids and raise their kids.
I’m feeling a little bit jealous of the Pike’s Peak-red balloon-picnic meeting. Anyone wanna meet at Sugar Loaf? Now, there’s a mountain for you!
Self-control is alot easier if you’re working on something that matters to you–like an education or getting a career off the ground.
Canary —
I would give my eye teeth to live in the shadow of PP. But, alas, I am stuck here in the city-that-shall-not-be-named, and so will just join my sisters here in wallowing in severe jealousy.
We’re going to end up in the same church anyway…so I hope I get to be in Colorado in the new heavens and the new earth. Y’all live in paradise. King Jesus will be our pastor and we will never whine or be hurt under his leadership, but we will be freely worshiping, serving and playing with those who have hurt us. That is weird to think about.
Good night, y’all. I have to go kiss my teenage guy goodnight. He is well into puberty, a freshman in HS, probably I should figure out who he should marry next week and get the cows traded around and stuff. Certainly, God the Holy Spirit could not possibly fill him with self-control as he waits for maturity and marriage. My unmarried college daughter is probably dancing on tables at the local Kitty Kat Klub, since she couldn’t possibly be waiting on God’s plan for her life.
These poor people–so in bondage.
Join us out here in Freedomland!
**
Girls,
Thinking about the new heaven and the new earth is so much needed in our lives! I wonder if we can carry our balloons there? Maybe we will just recognize each other because we will “know everything.”
RT,
I am amazed that your daughter cannot control her sexuality to the point that she has to dance at a club…sin is greater than grace…oy vey, what nonsense. How is it that we have managed to raise kids who desire purity, yet are still unmarried (my oldest is 24)? Oh, could it be that the Holy Spirit is involved? Sorry, I’m speaking tongue in beak. RT, you have a way of making me see the ridiculousness (word?) in all the stupid doctrines that are created to control people’s behavior. I’m sure your daughter and son will find their soul mates when GOD desires, just as I trust Him for my own kids’ spouses to come along. But not at 19! Eeeeek!
But, just in case, make sure you sign a contract before accepting any farm animals as a dowry. You never know, your son might want to give the girl back.
Freedom,
I have heard that sort of thing too, that college is wasted on girls. My ex-pastor said he wouldn’t be sending his girls to college. Fortunately, not all SGM families buy into this sort of enslavement. My daughter is getting a degree in Criminal Investigation, and she is so excited. It is nice to see her thinking about something outside of marriage. She has time to find out who she really is before settling down to one man for the rest of her life. Of course, she trusts the Lord to keep her pure during this time. It isn’t hard, because He is such a mighty and faithful God!
I’m feeling ornery, today. So, just in case I’ve stepped on any toes, I will add this disclaimer: there are exceptions in the SGM machine. Not all churches will follow the practices we are speaking of. Thank God.
Last night, I ran into a friend walking out of a sports banquet at my son’s high school. Years ago, this family and the “Smith” family, (some of my students), were best of friends. They vacationed together, their girls were the very best of pals, bosom buddies, did everything together.
Then the “Smiths” joined an SGM church, and those days were over. They haven’t been in contact for years.
So, this friend asked how the “Smiths” are, and especially how their high school senior daughter is, and what she plans to do next year.
Truth is, she recently was given permission, after the families met together, to ‘court’ another SGM boy. Of course, they had already ‘been together’ for years, then she had broken that off, I mean, received conviction from God to stop that relationship, so that she could go on and date “Joe” who she then broke up with, I mean, felt led to leave so she could suck face, I mean make out with, I mean be special friends with “Matthew,” who later dumped her, I mean, realized it was not time….anyway, it is just so exhausting to keep up with who is deceiving their gullible legalistic parents anyway. Life in SGM youthland is worse than Petticoat Junction.
But, I digress.
Back to the family friend’s inquiry.
I told her that “Janie” had recently begun courting “Bob” and that she is probably not going to attend college, just take some local community college classes while he goes to college. Then, in all honesty, she plans to marry him.
The friend looked dumbfounded. I asked about her senior daughter.
She is going off to a wonderful college, plans to run track, and major in engineering before going off to grad school. She has had a very successful high school career, garnered many honors, leads the school’s campus ministry, just shines with joy–indeed a Proverbs 31 woman who laughs at the future.
This kid is a lovely lady. She has a boyfriend that everyone knows about. Her parents even know, can ya imagine.
I pondered the difference between the two young ladies, who, ten years ago were on the same path.
Such a disparity. Of course the friend desires to marry. And, no doubt she will in time–she’ll find a wonderful man who admires her, who is challenged by her, who challenges her.
But “Janie” will probably end up marrying “Bob.” And while he is at college, growing and learning, she will collect recipes.
Then, after kids come, she will be expected to homeschool them.
This is where the big problem is going to come to light. She is not a student at all, has not valued her education in the least, often does not even read the books assigned–but instead glances through SparkNotes.
So how are these women going to teach the next generation? And how will educated men desire to marry unequally–with women who cannot discuss anything except recipes and babies?
Argh, argh and triple blecck.
RT,
You would think that if the women are expected to marry, have babies, and then home school them, they would at least be encouraged to go to college. You have to have some knowledge in order to teach children, even if it is only learning how to learn.
I’m sad for your two friends – such a shame that SGM has broken up yet another relationship. IF I were a man, I would not want to marry a dumbed down woman, unless my goal was to control and manipulate her. I hope that is not happening.
Let’s face it. Women have given up their freedoms in some churches, freedoms hard won by Americans (females included). I’m all for serving my man and my family. I love to take care of them! However, there is a part of me that is continually growing since I’ve left SGM. I’ve discovered hobbies, gifts, and much needed courage to face life. I’ve only become better with age, better as I glory in Christ and walk in the freedom of choice the Lord gives us all. My marriage and my family are healthier for the changes found in me.
So I say to all women reading this blog: DON’T give up your individuality at the church doors. Don’t let anyone steal from you whom God intends you to be. Not even the most “precious place on earth” can compare to knowing who you are in Christ Jesus!
The story about the smiths is just sad – I would NEVER in a million years marry a woman like that (thank God I didn’t!!!).
Canary – I am a man and I would never have wanted to marry a “dumbed down” woman and that is exactly what SGM does to females from birth – dumbs them down for the purpose of manipulation and control! Of course, they call it “God’s Will”. In my experience, the ones who are loudest about “this is God’s will” are the ones that are so far away from the Truth they wouldn’t recognize it if it was an anaconda eating them.
BTW – I feel the same way about people who talk the loudest about integrity (they have none), humility (try full of themselves), defenders of “Godly men” (you know, how could you say that, they are Godly men – well, what is a “Godly man” anyway?)
Canary – what a GREAT call out to the women reading this blog! Unfortunately many of the sgm women have been duped and have the very life that God gave them sucked out of them to be a stepford wife.
Freedom,
Sorry Freedom, for mistaking your gender. It is so good to hear your valuable opinion on the matter of women in the church. The only kind of man who would want a dumbed down woman has to be the one who wishes to control her, and be served his slippers and pipe when he gets home from work. A girl who doesn’t learn to think for herself will surely be the weakest link in a marriage. I do hope that some SGM woman reads my words. I hope her eyes become opened to who she can really be in Christ.
BTW – I feel the same way about people who talk the loudest about integrity (they have none), humility (try full of themselves), defenders of “Godly men” (you know, how could you say that, they are Godly men – well, what is a “Godly man” anyway?)
This is so true! Personally I think that the only reason some of the leaders feel the need to harp on pride/humility is that they are Christians walking in their own strength. With the Holy Spirit at work in us, we don’t have to think like that. We become like Jesus as we are with Him. Less of us, more of Him!
Freedom,
Something just occurred to me in regard to your name. A few years back, before we moved to CO, my family and I visited here. We took a horse ride through the Garden of the Gods, a park with huge rocks. This was during the time when I was still being taught about finding my freedom in Christ (by the Lord).
Wellll, wouldn’t you know that I would get a horse named “Freedom”. He was all white and very docile (which is the only sort of horse I’d get on -can’t stand being on something that has a mind of its own!).
Now, Freedom was about as free an animal as I was a horse. He slunked along the familiar trail, following the same boring trek he tredded four or five times a day. His head stayed down. He trudged along like he was heading to his own funeral. The only time he showed any enthusiasm was when we got close to his stall, where he knew he’d get fed. Then he certainly picked up the pace.
I felt the Lord was speaking to me through this poor, pitiful animal. We can say we are free in Christ, but live like slaves. I’m not speaking of you, Freedom. I speak of all those believers who think they walk in the truh, yet still follow the doctrines of men. They are like poor Freedom the horse, whose lot in life was to follow the trail set before him, with no choice, no flavor in his life, nothing to look forward to but the same boring routine.
That same week, a country-western song came out entitled, “Freedom”, Tell me God wasn’t speaking to me. I have since learned that the freedom to find God’s mind on a matter, and to embrace it, to follow Him first, before any leader, has changed my entire life. I can still follow a leader who also seeks the mind of Christ. It seems to be hard to find those kind of people these days, but I’m hopeful. However, I will never give up my freedom in Christ again. For the Lord!
Canary – Great post!!! Also, I never knew you thought I was a woman!
It is sad to see so many inslaved to a system at SGM, lacking the FREEDOM that God gives . I have told this story before, but when I left, one of the pastors was tasked with calling me (that would be bendinelli, who himself got “shanked” – couldn’t happen to a nicer guy – lol) – when I spoke of not being control, I was told I had a “problem with authority” (among the other heated things I was told). No, I just recognize FREEDOM.
Freedom,
Those leaders who express such importance over their “authority” only strike me as insecure and manuplative. They have no ground to stand on. The Pharisees were concerned over whose authority Jesus felt He had to speak. Jesus said His authority came from His Father. Paul said his authority came from God. I’d like to ask SGM leaders by whose authority do they crush and manipulate the people? By whose authority do they shun the weak, protect child molesters, stop the Holy Spirit from moving when He wishes (I saw this happen), or cause families to spit over their doctrines, created only to control the weakness of their flesh?
Good questions for a leader to ask himself, if he truly is chasing after the truth, and after our ultimate Leader, Jesus.
Come on, Freedom…you know Bendi retired.
Sidney – of course he did!!!! I have a GREAT investment opportunity for you – it’s in a bridge to NYC!!!
I just finished pawwing my way through this post. It was a saddening, angering, depressing activity. And more.
The stories of sexual abuse, pastoral abuse, and pastoral indifference rip at my heart. I am an ex-SG pastor and never had been ashamed of that title until today.
From a post near the start of this thread we learn that a SG pastor who is probably not even into his 30s addressed the SG pastors conference on “The Pastor’s Legacy”. Really. (Sounds almost as loony as a teenager who would write an autobiography.) I wonder, SG pastor, staffer, apostle: what is the legacy? The legacy unvieled in this thread is a travesty.
I was saddened to learn that Steve Patterson was out at GE’s church. I met Steve and he seemed a decent man. That may have been the rub.
I can’t write any more. This is all so grievous. Sackcloth and ashes are in order. I am interceding for all of you who have been hurt. Don’t wait up for me; it will take a while, a long while.
newlyndd,
If this helps, some of us have learned to take responsibility for our own submission to controlling churches (I am not speaking of those sexually assaulted, or their parents!). Each one of us can probably tell a couple of stories when WE shunned someone during our time in SGM, or ignored family in order to spend all our time in the most “precious place on earth.” God is so good as to have set us free from our own blindness.
So don’t heap too many ashes on yourself. Don’t own someone else’s sin. Okay? Also, having an ex-pastor feel so much for those who have been harmed is balm to the hurting. Thank you for your compassion.
He’s not the only one out at Kingsway (GE’s church). Another PC grad was recently let go, kind of. His job was split into two jobs (Huh?) and he elected to leave, apparently they only offered him one of the two part-time jobs.
Ah, so sad.
Well, the Kingsway public announcement is that Steve Patterson was “called” away from his pastoral “call” to his secular, business ”call” because, as Steve announced publically stated, there are a lot of people in the business world who need to hear the gospel.
Who is the other PC grad that was recently let go. Ken Delage, who is a recent PC grad left Kingsway to plant the “church” in Frederiksburg.
James Brewer, the finance guy is leaving Kingsway to get involved in another ministry–not sure why!
JB is the one. What ministry is he going to? This was at Kingsway behest, not his. If they are saying otherwise, they are not being truthful.
JB is going to a more charismatic ministry. I was told by an “insider” but don’t remember what the name of it is, BUT it definitely is NOT related to SGM. The public message is that James is going totally on his own, and Kingsway is happy for him but sad he’s leaving. That is the message from the front and Kingsway’s membership.
RT, if you want, please email me if you don’t feel comfortable sharing it here. Jim, please feel free to release me email address to RT.
GDFS–
GE or somebody actually said that JB had decided to leave? Not that Kingsway changed his job and cut it into two parts?
If so, someone is lying through their teeth.
Why would this be? I suspect it is so that they can afford Keith.
I’ll ask Jim for your address.
RT,
Yes, the insider news and the public announcement is that Steve Patterson and James Brewer both decided (were called) from their positions at Kingsway away to their respective “callings!”
If you have other info, I would appreciate it because I have dear friends who need to hear the truth. The truth is always best. I too have that “old feeling” that there is more to what has happened than what is being publicly stated
Hi GDFS and RT!
I’m sending emails with your addresses to both of you.
I haven’t been around here very much lately… Jim and I added a new puppy to our home (a 1 year old golden retriever named Gibson) so most of my life has revolved around taking things out of his mouth he is not supposed to have (yep! shoes, cough drops, duct tape, remote control, and on and on and on…) and my vocabulary has been limited to the word “No!”
He’s a blast, though! 
Newlywndd… welcome to The Refuge! I hope and pray you find answers to your questions, healing for your heart and mind, and a renewed hope in God, Who never leaves us nor forsakes us, and ALWAYS draws us to Himself, to teach us, guide us, and love us as only He can.
To everyone else… great comments!… I’ll be spending a lot of time catching up today.
RT and anyone else interested, you can listen to Gene Emerson’s statement here, regarding Steve patterson and James Brewer. Go to the about the 25 minute mark on a little bit, and you will get the flavor for what is being said.
Hi Carole! Hope the dog training goes well. I’m so glad you got a new friend. Dogs rule, cats drool!
Hey Canary!… my new puppy is making my cat’s life miserable!
The refereeing I’m having to do between them would be comical if it were someone else… but since it’s ME, not so funny! 
Actually, they are very entertaining, as long as they aren’t eating each other! :-/
Canary–
You are SO RIGHT!!!
Dogs rule, cats drool.
Have fun with the puppy, Carole. So adorable. And absolutely without a morale soul, so you can spoil them, unlike our poor children. Our dog is an eternal toddler, we all adore her.
Congratulations.
Did you know that here, I go by charlie,
Shes a beautiful brown labradoodle.
At sovereign Grace Minsitries, I was treated like a dog…thats how I picked my name. Thanks Carole, and RT, and Canary for loving your dogs….Roof…
RT….know the difference between a cat and a dog?
When you feed a dog, care for it, love it..it thinks to itself: you must be God.
When you feed a cat, care for it, love it…it thinks to itself: I must be God!
hahaha
and Canary…about farm animals being given as dowry…I have a running joke with some friends of mine, who offered, when I said years ago “What could I ever offer a man in terms of a dowry except student loan debt and a ready-made child? (yeah..I was really feeling sorry for myself back in those days haha)
they quickly and laughingly responded with: “We’ll get you a goat!”
some part of me thinks when I do get married, that one of those nuts will actually show up with a goat in tow…and I’ll just have to laugh my butt off!
Carole,
A PUPPY! Hurray! I’m glad to hear that. It can be at least a part time job taking things away from those silly goldens! Even as I type this, I am removing my pillow from my 2-year-old golden’s mouth. But, oh my, do those goldens (and all dogs really) know how to make you feel loved, so it’s all worth it.
Charlie,
What a great way to choose your name. I had a black lab years ago named … Gracie! Yup. However there is another reason I chose Gracie as my name - mostly because of the lack of grace extended to me and mine during our PDI/SGM experience.
Juli,
Ha ha ha ha ha ha! If I were one of those “nuts” I would move heaven and earth to somehow have a goat around when you get married. Just too good to pass up.
Juli, You are worth at least TWO goats!
Carole, I hear birdcages do a pretty good job of keeping kitties in line…
Things are really strange at GE church, there seems to be lots of tension there. im just a outsider and i can see things are different in the last six months. I have heard some talk of marriage counsel gone wild.
Announcement from Chesapeake!
Guest Speaker
Steve Shank is coming to address our congregation on June 21. He has been a member of the Sovereign Grace leadership team since 1985. Currently based in Phoenix, Arizona, he serves Sovereign Grace churches in the western United States and Canada, as well as Central and South America
Gratefully disillusioned?? Interesting name for someone that still goes to a SGM church…”address our congregation”???
McD
Oh contraire, my dear friend. I have gratefully been out of SGM for a couple years now–thankfully and free–:-)
McD
The “address our congregation” is a quote from Chesapeake’s website which I linked to above. I can see how you infered my being still “in!” Sorry about the comfusion.
OOOh, someone needs to do some catch-up reading…
GD, Do you know why he is coming? Is he going to try to mend some fences?
Canary,
No, I have no other details. I just was checking the lastest and stumbled–well clicked– on Chesapeake’s site, and shazam–
Time for a pop-quiz………….
Shank is going back to Chesapeake to…………..
A) remind those few remaining that “better days lie ahead”
B) give his stamp of approval (and much praise) to the “new and improved” E. Hughes as the soon-to-be senior pastor
C) speak out against blogs (other than CJ’s, Bob K’s and Josh’s of course)
D) confirm that SGM churches are the one-and-only true churches; and how could anyone possibly find God anywhere else
E) all of the above
N.S.L.B.
hey Quizzler….NSLB? what’s that?
how about my dream answer?
F) to announce that he no longer has the apostolic gifting and is moving back, looking for a job and re-joining them as a parishoner
Defended
N.S.L.B. = No Sheep Left Behind
You get extra credit for your answer.
N.S.L.B.
As a former member of SGCC, it is so tempting to vist when Shank preaches. However, I just cannot subject myself to that Holy Spirit-less preaching any longer. Someone please give me the Clif Notes version of what he said.
OK, here are the pre=”message” Cliff Notes: “God’s good, I’m bad, try harder!”
I do believe that most of the message will be praising the pastors. Every time any of the BD’s came, they spent at least the 1st 1/2 hour or more of their message praising “your” pastors. Of course it always ended with the congregation standing and applauding, gushing with praise and adoration, all for “our” pastors. Never once in all my years there did I ever hear/see such admiration, love, praise and worship bestowed upon Jesus!
Of course now that this has come up on Refuge, SS’s message may be different. Wake up those of you who are still sitting in the pews!
Fred,
Very true. You can hear a snippet of that from Keith with his “message” (cick here) preached at Kingsway last Sunday, as he gushes over Gene and how blessed and cared for the congregation is to have these godly men, your pastors. You don’t have to listen long; it’s contained in the first minute and a half.
I used to marvel over those gushings until I realized how scripted they were–then it made me a little sceptical, if you know what I mean?
Fred,
In all my thirty years, I have never witnessed anyone, pastor or otherwise, being honored for thirty minutes straight.
Jesus, on the other hand, is honored, praised, loved, worshipped, and adored continuously for at least 30 minutes every Sunday and on other regular occaisions. With clapping, singing, dancing, baptisms, testimonies, shouting, instruments, and verbal praise. We regularly celebrate communion. And during the “message”, Jesus is remembered and honored for who he is and what he has done for us. All of this in addition to the continual praise given to him in our hearts.
The honor we occaisionally give to one another does not even begin to come close in comparison to the time, energy, and passion given to Jesus. Surely you have seen the difference at your church.
Maybe the “honoring” varies from church to church. In over 10 years of what we encountered, even at B’day parties, Grad parties, Engagement parties ,Baby shower’s….. they could drag on for over an hour..with the pre-selected buddies lined up to gush over the honoree.
30 Years,
I’m not sure if you have posted here, before. Are you in SGM? If so, you experience is very different from many of us. One of the reasons my family left SG was because we very rarely if ever heard the name of Jesus spoken, let alone preached about. I’m glad if your experience is a good one. There are certainly some exceptions in the SGM group. From what I’ve read, these anomalies occurr when some churches don’t have as much involvement from the RD’s.
I’d love to see the Pastors stand up one day and applaud the body of believers they “serve”. If it weren’t for the little people, those pastors would be out of work…
There is also something ingenuine about the stirring up of the people’s praise for their pastors. I saw that often. It wasn’t a natural outpouring of gratitude, as much as an attempt to continue the illusion that these guys were anymore special to God than the rest of us. I do not intend for that comment to appear spiteful, please believe me. I wasn’t as fortunate to be involved with an SGM church that preached Jesus. If I had, I would never have left. I really loved the Brethren I’d known for nearly two decades.
Canary,
Yes, I have been a member of an SGM church for thirty years.
SGM has been a wonderful experience for me and my family. With more blessings than I can begin to list here. My church and my pastors are not perfect, but I am grateful to God for leading me here.
My pastors regularly and specifically honor us as a congregation.
My pastors are no closer to God than I am. They regularly and publically admit and discuss their sins. They live a humble, modest lifestyle, they regularly confess sin to one another, are accountable to one another, they love Jesus and serve him passionately, and do a great job leading our church. For this, I/we honor them and respect them.
I hope that your new church is a blessing to you.
30years,
I am very happy for you. It is good that you share with us about an SGM church which does not abuse its members, the way some have. We know they are out there.
I only ask that you also understand the darker side of SGM, the side that promotes authoritarianism, that seems to frown on individuality. Those who post here are not lying when they speak of their own experiences. If you have read the stories, you will see that not all SG churches are as wonderful as yours. You are fortunate to follow leaders who seem authentic in their care of the sheep. Very fortunate!
As I said before, if the two churches I was involved with taught about Jesus, if the pastors hadn’t been so bent on controlling our individual rights, I would never have left. My heart was torn in two when I had to choose between the people I had loved and known for so long, and following Christ. I do not exaggerate. Others will confirm this.
Though your part of the SG world is going smoothly, recognize that a large portion of the wider picture is a lot more bleak. God bless you and yours.
When I read what 30 years writes, and then think of what I have personally experienced with countless others in my “old” SGM “church and the myriad other accounts of the heartache and cult-like practices written about in this blog as well as others, I find it very difficult to properly process 30 year’s experience.
Admittedly, I remember feeling the same way as 30 years back in the day, but that feeling (really an illusion) quickly disappeared when we were able to peel back a few more layers of the smoke screen from the illusion to the reality. I do not have any doubt about how 30 years sees it. 30 years, I believe you, BUT that is NOT my experience, no way. So, I say, hallelujah and I rejoice with you–truly!
On the other hand, I say “shame on you SGM” for what you, as an organization, have done to so many of the saints with your intense focus on puritanical views and attempt of changing your people through human words and subtle coercion, instead of focusing on the resurrected LIFE of the Lord Jesus, and knowing that any genuine change ONLY comes from the inside out, never from the outside in. Christianizing people is not the same as Christ living His LIFE out through me as me. Too many people pour into evangelical “churches” as morph into little drones of whatever the flavor of the day happens to be, just to fit in. Christ doesn’t do that to people! Christ in me is anchored in truth, not acceptance, not conformity, and certainly not pastoral approval just because Gaithersburg decrees it. OK, I am rambling—sorry!
30 years, again, I truly rejoice and do NOT doubt what you say as true—I just have mucho trouble processing the very different perspectives. So, peace to you. I mean no offense. God is good; that is a reality that I have no trouble processing.
30years,
I am so happy that your experience has been so wonderful for you in your SGM church. Jesus was not lifted up at all in my SGM church in the way that you are describing. In fact, we hardly ever even heard the name of Jesus. I was not exaggerating in my previous post. Sadly, I do not believe that your experience is the norm in SGM churches. Blessings to you.
Canary,
Thank you for your kind words. I am sorry for the painful experience you had.
I would like to respectfully explore the authoritarian concept with you without minimizing your painful experience in any way.
As I see it, the role of the SGM pastor is first and foremost to lead by example in his walk with Jesus, and to live his life in a godly, biblical manner that pleases the Lord. He is to provide leadership, care, love, compassion, teaching of God’s word, counsel, direction for the church, and most importantly, encourage our own personal walk with Jesus. This has been my experience with my pastors.
They also desire that their church reflect what it is like to live in a biblical way, as part of the kingdom of God. Not only will they exercise their leadership and teach from God’s word what this means on a day-to-day basis, but they will also graciously point out and confront areas of sin and worldliness that hinders our fellowship with God and with one another. I have experienced the good fruit of this being lived out at my SGM church.
Can you give me an idea of what you mean by controlling individual rights, specifically? This has not been my experience. I could give you a long list of personal decisions that I have made without consulting my pastors. I have been on both ends of pastoral counselling. I have not personally witnessed or experienced any pastoral abuse.
Regarding your experience with your pastors, was there a specific turning point for you? Were they deliberately abusive to you? Did they listen to you? Pray with you? Did they show any compassion at all? Did they offer you counsel that was unbiblical?
I believe you. I respect you. I love you as a sister in the Lord. I am simply exploring here.
Thank you for listening. In His grace………….
30Years and Canary,
I appreciate the graceful tone of your conversation.
The two views presented are proof that broad-brushing in either direction is illogical.
“SGM is the best model. We have had a couple of problems, but we are dealing with them”, would be an inaccurate statement. I’m not quoting anyone, but I have heard this statement. Do I personally think that there are some very good people and beliefs/methods within SGM? Absolutely!
“SGM is rotten to the core, and every pastor in SGM is an abusive tyrant”, would also be an inaccurate statement. Again, not quoting anyone, but I know people who feel this way. Am I personally aware of some inexcusable things certain SGM pastors have done to the sheep? Absolutely!
Again, I think this interaction is helpful, and I hope we can continue to keep our tone civil. From what I’ve observed from the two main participants, I have no doubts.
Thank you both!
Hello, Fred,
You and I both know that if a Christian church rarely mentions the name of Jesus, than we are wasting our time there on sunday mornings. Jesus is everything to us. He is the reason we live.
So, you say that at your former SGM church, Jesus’ name is rarely heard. Fred, I certainly respect your opinion, but I have to be honest with you, but I am having a hard time believing this. It would be like you telling me that the Starbucks down the street from you rarely sells coffee.
I am bringing this up because this is serious business. I hope you won’t mind a few questions. On Sunday mornings, do you worship Jesus? Do the songs mention his name? Does the worship leader mention the name of Jesus? ? The pastor rarely mentions Jesus? What are the sermon topics? Does he pray in His name?
Would your former pastor (I assume you are no longer there) agree that Jesus is rarely mentioned? Would the congregation agree with that statement? Have you ever brought this to the pastor’s attention?
Let me know what you think.
30years,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
In Fred’s defense, I saw this in my two SGM churches, that the name of Jesus was rarely mentioned. Even the worship music began to leave Him out. It became all about sin, repentance, holiness, but little about our Lord Jesus. My husband can vouch for this. It was one of the reasons he felt the need for us to leave SG. In fact, our desire to pursue more of Jesus seemed to anger the leaders we spoke with.
As for my experience with SGM, I really hate to speak about it again. If you go over and read my story, it will tell you much. Then, if you have any questions, I would be happy to fill in the blanks. Is that okay?
One thing that would be good if you are going to interact here (which we appreciate!), is to lay aside the assumptions that many SGMers have of us posters. You know, that we are liars, we have grudges, we post in our basement in our underwear, have no life outside the blog…I’m sure I’ve left something out. We even touched on the subject of whether Jim is a boxer or briefs man (ever seen a canary blush?). At least I think it was Jim.
We are just average folk, who love Jesus and each other, and are attempting to right a great wrong. We have families, little tykes, college kids, jobs, hobbies, church activities, everything you do. We share a love of the people still within the SG walls. We sacrifice our time to post here because we don’t wish for other saints to live in an authoritarian, grace-killing, fear motivating, manipulating sort of atmosphere. We once lived there. Our stories are true. Our hearts are for the saints.
You describe in your last post what your pastors believe about themselves, and what you see in action. I wish the leaders in my two ex-sgm churches had behaved with the same convictions. If you read my story, you will find that they didn’t. Of course, you can say that it was only MY interpretation of the facts, which is how pastors manage to dismiss all the stories on this blog. If you go there, I guess I’m not the one to be talking to. To dismiss others’ experiences simply because an appointed leader disagrees is…well, it insulting at best. At worst, it kept many of us from thinking for ourselves, out of fear that we would not “be a blessing to our pastors”, which was another way of saying, “don’t cause them any fuss, or else”.
Again, after you read my story, I’d be happy to answer any remaining questions. You are a breath of fresh air because, though you attend an SG church, you are addressing those here with respect and concern. You might not realize how much we all appreciate that!
I do have one question for you: What do you say to CJ’s idea that pastors “stand in the very stead of God”? Maybe Jim can supply the link where we discussed this. I’d be very interested in hearing an SGMer’s take on this. Have we somehow misunderstood his meaning? Thank you, 30years. Hope your day is blessed!
Jim,
Thanks for reminding us to keep the balance. Hope you’re workload isn’t too heavy, and that Carole hasn’t worn herself out with the new dog! Do you still have all your slippers and shoes intact? Ha-ha!
Is the debate about the name “Jesus” specifically, as opposed to the use of the name “Christ”?
I don’t know how it is, now. In the days before we left SG (1997), we heard neither the name of Jesus lifted up, or Christ. He was not taught about, either. The teachings were very sin-focused, how to be a better wife, mother, parent, Christian, servant, member of the church, etc. How to confront, how to receive confrontation, how to be humble…the center of the teaching was not about Jesus. Now, from what I’m hearing, the word “gospel” is used quite often. It is very impersonal, like you are being taught to give your life to the church, instead of Jesus.
Fred, was that your experience?
30years
time for a quiz …………
Concerning lifting up the name of Jesus; In this Josh Harris interview of CJ, how many times is the name of Jesus (or Christ) mentioned?
A) too many to count
B) 23
C) 8
D) only once at the very end
N.S.L.B.
“Starbucks down the street from you rarely sells coffee.”
Yet they rarely call it coffee. Sure it is in there, but it is re-packaged and blended as a Frappacchino, Espresso, latte, Iced Caffe Mocha, and vivanno nurishing blends. Sure you can navigate through the menu for a basic coffee if you are a purist, but that is not how they stay in business.
I like the analogy.
Jim,
We heard neither…..for over a decade….it was only “The Savior.”
I noticed that oddity years ago when I realized none of our friends or family members used the name of Jesus.
We heard more of our sin, and The Gospel having it’s effect on all area’s of our lives.
Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, it just seemed odd…..
He has the Name above all Names, why afraid to use it?
“Starbucks down the street from you rarely sells coffee.”
And yet they rarely call it coffee. Sure it is in there, but it is re-packaged and blended as a Frappacchino, Espresso, latte, Iced Caffe Mocha, and vivanno nurishing blends. Sure you can navigate through the menu for a basic coffee if you are a purist, but that is not how they stay in business.
I like the analogy.
Quizzler,
I only caught the word “Christ” mentioned once, so “D” is my answer.
However, CJ and Josh are very likable men. But so were many others with less than noble intentions. No, I am NOT saying that CJ and Josh have bad intentions. They need money to do what they think should be done–Lots of money. I for one don’t share their vision because I for one have seen, up close and personal, too much to remain a part of it.
My beef with most modern evangelical “churches,” not only SG “churches,” is that money drives them way too much. I get so weary of the scriptures being misapplied to prove tithing and so many other gimmicks as laws, principles, or anyother euphamisum to “arm-twist” the new covenant believer to give or suffer some kind of adverse consequence from God. That is seldom directly statedbut strongly communicated but sprinkled with words of grace and “we will never force or manipulate”–yeah right!
GD,
I know what you mean. The tithe message about how God will curse us if we don’t tithe our 10 percent is not part of the New Covenant. It grieves me, and I think it grieves Jesus. He came to set the captives free! I wish Mimi could come on and tell us, as a Christian Jew, what the old law and the new one mean to her. She has such great insights!
PFR,
Great coffee analogy. Very fitting. Even if you ask for a black coffee at Starbucks, won’t they ask you which brew you want? “I don’t know. Just black COFFEE!”
My husband and I could no longer keep up with all the different teachings, even though we’d heard them over and over for nearly 20 years. We hungered to hear about our Elder Brother. The leaders just couldn’t understand. They seemed to get offended that we could no longer “trust” them. That wasn’t even the issue!
Give me Jesus, please. Tell me about Him. Read His words to me. What did He mean? Pray for me like He did. Pray that I will have more of Him and less of me. Now that is truly the sort of leader I will gladly support.
Canary,
Amen, “give me Jesus,” for He is my LIFE!!!!! He doesn’t make my life better; HE IS MY LIFE!!!
“Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith” Hebrews 12:2
I think also of the first three chapters of Ephesians. Chapters that are all about the “unfathomable riches of Christ.”
The third chapter ends in that incredible prayer of Paul’s when he wants us to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge. Paul just runs out of superlatives!
I have a book by D. A. Carson in which he gives his translation of some of the verses at the end of chapter three:
“I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge–that you may be filled to the measure of all the fulness of God.”
It’s been my experience that those who know and are convinced of the grace and love of Jesus overflow with love for others.
Knowing Jesus–well, He changes us.
Canary, yes that has been my experience also. We heard the word “Gospel” mentioned often, the Cross, our sin, etc. The person and name of Jesus Christ and the person and name of the Holy Spirit were pretty much lost in word and deed. I believe that this was one main reason why the abuses occurred. The desire to be like Jesus with love and compassion had been discarded for a desire for control and authority. I also agree that the word “Gospel” was used in a very impersonal way. This became more evident and worse over the last years. I have heard that there is a new emphasis on Holy Spirit these last few months.
30years, Would you mind telling us what SGM church you are in? It certainly sounds like a very different church experience than many of us had in SGM churches. I would imagine that this is so very hard for you to read and to believe about other SGM churches. Your experience sure sounds like it has been 180 degrees different from others on this blog. It was quite a shock to me when I began to see how things really were in SGM. I am very sad that I bought into the legalism, an incomplete Gospel, and the lie that the sons and daughters of God (through the blood of Jesus Christ) are worms. As I sat in a class tonight looking around at the beauty of those sitting around me, I rejoiced and I grieved. Grieved over lost years of believing lies and not walking in the freedom and abundant life that Jesus promises to each of us in His Word. However, I rejoiced because happy days are here for me now because I am in freedom and experiencing more and more of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit every day. He has promised that He will restore (and He already is restoring) what the locusts devoured and I totally, 100% believe this! Many, many are getting set free and it will effect generations to come!
30Years mentioned in another thread that he’s from CLC.
INC-well said!
GDfSGM-like I often say, “pick a covenant”. Amazing that this is the only issue that all pastors of every stripe agree on.
Canary-I’m with ya..
My experience with my sgm church in the last few years that I was there was the same as cardinal’s 3:42 post. I could not understand why Jesus’ name was rarely used. It really really bothered me.
Do we really understand the significance of this Name above all other names? Do we understand the Power that is behind this Wonderful Name? If so, why would we ever resort to the “arm of the flesh” when we have One so Mighty and So Awesome to call upon Who comes to our assistance at any time of the day and the night as speedily as the very mention of His Name.
Oh! The loveliness of this Name!
Oh! The splendor of this Name!
Oh! The Beauty of this Name!
Oh! The Glory of this Name!
And yes, yes, yes – Oh! The Power of this Name! Jesus! Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!
There is something about that Name!
Luke 10:17 – The Scriptures tell us that our potent enemies are subject unto us through this Mighty Name. As this verse indicates, the seventy disciples returned from their evangelistic mission with great joy, saying – “Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through Thy name.”
Are we aware of this?
How cognizant are we that every devil, demon, evil spirit, ruler, principality, power, and dominion are “subject unto us” through Jesus’ Name?
Do we act as though our enemies are under our feet?
Do we face life’s twists and turns, setbacks, trials, troubles, and tragedies as though every devil is “subject unto us” through the Mighty and All-Powerful Name of Jesus?
Has this revelation moved down from our heads and entered into our hearts and transformed our lives insomuch that we are never depressed, discouraged, and defeated because of what we know about this Awe-Inspiring and Glorious Name that is at our disposal 24/7?
Oh! Saint of God! Does every devil know that you know that he is subject to you because of that Wonderful Name?
Ephesians 1:21 teaches us that the name of Jesus is “Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”
Do we believe that? Do we really know it to be true?
Philippians 2:9-10 goes on to say – “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth…”
Acts 4:12 adds – “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
Satan and all of his demonic forces and evil hosts know that the name of Jesus is high above or greatly exalted above every conceivable ruler, magistrate, power – no matter what rank or order they may hold. But, do we know it?
Satan and every demon knows that salvation from sin; healing for the body, emotions, and mind; as well as deliverance or preservation from all evil or harm cannot be found in any other person or “name” than the “name of Jesus.” Are we acting as though we know it to be true? Do our lives show that we are indeed believers of this fact?
Luke 10:19 – Through Jesus’ Name, we have “power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy” and absolutely “nothing” – “no weapon” – of Satan’s can “hurt” us as children of the Most High God.
Psalm 91:13 – Through the Name of Jesus, we are treading and trampling under our feet spiritual enemies, typified by lions and adders, young lions and dragons.
Romans 16:20 – Every time that we invoke His Awesome Name, Jesus – our “God of Peace” – bruises Satan – that ole serpent, “roaring lion,” and “dragon” – under our feet.
Hallelujah! Bless His Sweet and Holy Name!
What does it mean that Jesus bruises Satan under our feet?
It simply means that He subdues, gains the victory over, gives dominion over, and overcomes all of the arts, schemes, endeavors, plots, and plans of this wicked deceiver, accuser, and enemy.
Whenever we call upon His name, He brings us safety from all danger, even as we walk among bitter, crafty, and malicious enemies, typified as deadly and venomous serpents and fierce and violent lions.
Mark 16:17 – Because we are believers, God has given us the authority to use His Omnipotent Name to “cast out devils.” This power is not invested in only a few. It is not given only to Apostles, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, and Prophets. It is given to all believers.
http://www.walkingintruth.org/.....020103.htm
Fred,
The last part of your post is so beautiful and so piercing. When you looked around at all the folks who are so precious to the Lord, seeing what you did, well, as usual, your words touched me. I’m so glad you post for the encouragement of the saints!
Jim,
Yes, pick a covenant is very apt. If we obey one law, shouldn’t we have to obey them all? And isn’t that impossible without Jesus? How ironic. I think, when it comes to tithes, can I put in cinnamon or other spices? How about a leg of lamb? A t-bone? From what I know, tithe wasn’t even money. Am I wrong?
Wouldn’t it shock a few deacons if people followed the tithe law to the letter? Ooh, could get messy…:)
INC,
Knowing the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge…that makes so much sense to me, now! I wonder if the two words, know and knowledge, mean the same in their usage. I wouldn’t be surprised if the first “know” is closer to the word used for intimacy. Knowing the Lord is more than knowledge of Him. Think I’ll look that up.
Canary, you sing very well. Regarding the tithe – please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. The tithe is biblical, and Jesus taught it.
It may be “old covenant”, but the new covenant is based upon grace. My question – is grace a higher or lower covenant? Higher of course! So grace would make the principle of the tithe in the new covenant just the starting point! I give the tithe as a part of my worship - a part of grace. But I go much higher! Please don’t allow misuse to sour you to the truth of cheerful giving!
Setfreepastor,
I think you misunderstand me. I am about the most cheerful giver on earth. My husband says I’d give away the farm, if I had one. Giving, especially from sacrifice, is a true joy to my soul.
Having said that, forced tithe, telling people God will curse you if you don’t give your ten percent, is not what Jesus died for! When he spoke of the tithe to the Pharisees, He had yet to offer Himself up for our sins. You do not hear the apostles speak of tithe to Gentile Christians, whom most of us are. We are to give our offerings out of love, not intimidation or condemnation.
Perhaps it would be better to discuss this with Jim. He said, “GDfSGM-like I often say, “pick a covenant”. Amazing that this is the only issue that all pastors of every stripe agree on.” He can handle this better than I. Thanks!
Ellie,
Hey, girl! I’ve been thinking about you. That was a wonderful post. Jesus is the name above all names!
Setfreepastor,
Could you elaborate on “Jesus taught the tithe”?
Hi all..especially Yellow Bird! (Canary),
Oh my, concerning tithe.. A touchy issue..but here goes. I have to say I agree with Setfreepastor…However, I want to explain why.
Do I believe that we have to tithe to be true believers? NO.. Do I believe that tithing went out with the “old covenant” NO…Do I believe our relationship with Jesus is based on our act of tithing? NO..Do I believe that we are doomed if we don’t tithe? NO..
BUT.. for me and my household tithing is an integral, unquestioned act in our walk with G-D. WHY???? Because HE has directed us to do it. I/we believe that it is a personal matter that must be walked out IF you believe that you personally have been directed to do so. It is an act of faith for us…not law.
Let me explain, if you feel, and the circumstances around you indicate that HE has blessed you with the gift of exhortation and you do not use it to encourage, teach, enrich, provoke others to draw closer to G-D, are you being obedient to HIS personal word to you? NO….
Ironically, even though it is “old covenant”, tithing is no longer part of the Jewish faith as it is biblicaly written. The tithe was origianly instituted to provide for the priest since he did not work, but spent his time interceding and ministering to and for the people. Yes, it was brought in as grains, produce and livestock. That is all they had, as they were, at that time, not a wealthy nation. Today, they no longer practice that, but pay dues to their shuls, make donations through memorials and buy tickets for seats to all the High Holidays (thats right..no tickeee, no seateee.)
So the very people who should be living under that law don’t, and the church now under grace, at times, lets it be an issue to divide them.
For us, we believe that G-D’s words and promises never change; they are yes and amen. Therefore, because we are obedient to what HE has called us personally to do, we have seen the promises come to fruition. Does that make us more spiritual? NO..Does that make us more holy? NO.. does that make us closer to HIM? NO…What is does do is build our faith in HIS faithfulness. We personally have been called to give..not just to HIM…we have been given an overwhelming desire to help others, to life burdens and be HIS hands to others financially. In obeying what HE has called us to do, we believe FOR US that tithing is a key factor in the $$s coming in to give others as HE directs. THIS is a personal issue….an act of faith on our part…believing that HE will provide for us to do what HE has called us to do. Believing that the miracles promised in Malachi are true (we have experienced them for thirty years now). Do we give to get? NO Do we give believing that HE will be true to HIS word, giving us the opportunites to bless others with the answered promises there? Most definitely.
Tithing is NOT AN ISSUE OF SALVATION !!!!! the word does say for everyman to work out his own salvation though, and for us, part of that walk is being obedient to HIS call to us to the gift of giving; having faith in thoses promises in Malachi, and as HE says there, see the gates of heaven pour out on us.
REMEMBER TOO blessings are not just financial, that I feel, is where the Church as robbed the saints. Blessings, are peace, hope, a way when there seems to be no way, a lost loved one coming to Jesus…the grace to forgive..the hope of repentance..healing…..eternal life!!!
I hope I have not confused you all…Bottom line, anything, I believe, that HE has called us to do, becomes an area of obedience and part of our Salvation in that personal relationdhip we share with our Yeshua….
MiMi
Canary, thank you for your kind words! YOU are such a blessing and this blog would not be the same without you!
Canary-what Fred said.
Fred-what canary said.
This is me interacting on my own blog. Please know there are big feelings behind the small sound bites.
Mimi – well said!
Jim – what I should have said was that Jesus affirmed the tithe – but also declared the weightier issues were of course justice and mercy. Matthew 23:23
The writer of Hebrews seems to affirm Abraham’s giving of the tithe to Melchizedek as well. (a type of Christ)
Canary – I can tell from your posts that you are a generous person. I was just trying to say that the covenant of grace supersedes (is higher) than the law. For me that means 10% is just the starting place!
Bless you all today!
Setfreepastor,
As you well know, Jesus obeyed the entire law and never spoke against it. He did speak against the oral tradition.
It would make perfect sense that He would encourage or affirm the tithe to teachers of the law and Pharisees, as they were under the law.
This passage has absolutely nothing to do with New Covenant believers.
If I follow the reasoning in your comment to canary, I should sacrifice two calves and increase the Sabbath to two days.
You know that the tithe had a specific purpose. That purpose no longer exists, unless your position is that pastors have replaced the Levites.
I had a friend once say that when you center on Pauls teachings, it is easy to become
focused on the “rules” and the Church. When you center on the Gospels, you tend to focus on hope, redemption, freedom, forgiveness, reconciliation, joy, and of course, the name and work of Jesus.
Jim, we can agree to disagree.
Tithing, or giving does have practical outworkings.
1 Corinthians 9:12-14 (New International Version)
12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
I believe in spiritual biblical principles. Sowing and reaping. Forgiveness and mercy. The sabbath rest. Healing and deliverance. Supporting priests and pastors and Levites. (those that minister to the Lord) Jesus didn’t set aside the law, he fulfilled it.
I think there is a spiritual principle at work when we tithe in faith. And in the words of Forrest Gump, that’s all I want to say about that!
Thanks Jim! We are soooo grateful to God for you and Carole!
Jim, thank you. I really liked Carson’s translation.
Canary, I didn’t think of that. I did look up know and knowledge and they are the same word; however, in a commentary we have by William Hendricksen, he says:
“It is experiential knowledge, heart-knowledge, which Paul has in mind. And since the heart is the very core and center of life and influences all of life’s inner activities and outward expressions, what is indicated is a grasping and knowing with one’s entire being, that is, with all the “faculties” of heart and mind. Mental appropriation is certainly included.
“…the apostle prays that the addressed may concentrate so intensely and exhaustively on the immensity and glory of Christ’s love that they will come to understand that this love ever surpasses knowledge. The finite heart and mind can never fully grasp or know infinite love.”
He goes on to say, “This introduces us to the climax. We now reach the top of the ladder: 19b. in order that you may be filled to all the fulness of God… In other words, the knowledge just described is transforming in character: “But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit” (II Cor. 3:18).” ”
I can’t believe I didn’t remember that verse when I commented above, but it’s was wonderful to see this affirmation of what I wrote yesterday about those who know Jesus’ love overflowing with love to others.
The reason I’m thinking and mulling this over so much is because of my ongoing struggle to remember and know the love of Jesus. I’ve been thinking a lot about the transformational work of Jesus Christ through His Spirit. One of the hardest–if not the worst–pieces of fallout from my abusive church experience is wondering does knowing Jesus make a difference? I have such conflicting feelings as I struggle to regrasp things I thought I knew. I’ve known and been in churches before where the love of Christ overflowed. I remember this with my mind and cannot figure out why I feel so barren.
I read a comment yesterday over at Phoenix Preacher’s City of Refuge post about the difference between “virtual” fellowship and face to face fellowship and ministry within the body. He had some excellent things to say that I agree with–we do need that flesh and blood interaction. The big problem is finding a “local body of believers who will be there for you.” In the meantime I am thankful for the virtual and cyber-fellowship I have and for the help I have found here. Paul wrote to those whom he had never met face to face and he wrote to them to strengthen their faith. However, it remains very hard and sad to me that so many local churches seem to have lost sight of Jesus and that blindness has cut them off from His transforming love and power; this in turn permeates the way they interact (or don’t for that matter), because they’re doing it out of their own efforts, without Him.
Setfreepastor,
OK, this is not a trick question, merely meant to see where this all comes from. A 34 year old women with 3 little girls whose husband just left her for a newer model and can hardly make ends meet, who just received her weekly paycheck of $250, should she pay her $25 tithe? Should she believe that the sowing and reaping principle will work against her? Should she feel that her Abba will withhold ANYTHING from her?
Setfreepastor,
In 1 Cor, Paul was referring to Apostles. Please take a look at the end of Acts 20 to see his view in regards to pastor compensation.
Jesus did not set aside the law? He made the Old Covenant obsolete!
Hebrews 8
8:1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”
13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away
Jim, Good verses!
INC, You show that you have a true grasp on the love of Jesus, whether or not you are “feeling” that right now. Your posts, like Esther, continue to remind us to lift our eyes to Jesus.
I feel the same about finding a church where His love is evident. Appearances can be deceiving. A group who seems welcoming and joyful on the outside, but does not express love through its action is like…well, like a clanging gong. The fruit of walking with Jesus, of knowing Him, is love. So we have to look for that fruit to be solid in any church we participate in.
Mimi,
There you are! Thanks for explaining your point of view. What you do, you do by faith. Can’t be any clearer.
My husband and I give “offerings”. Tithe was taught to us as law, and that we would be cursed if we did not give 10 percent. That is not God’s heart under the New Covenant, as Jim has pointed out. The amazing things is, now that we are free to give in faith where the Lord directs, we give so much more than we ever did while in a controlling church. It is by faith.
So what some might call “tithe”, I call offerings. The point is, do not give out of compulsion, out of law, or because someone threatens you with a curse. Jesus ended the curse through His death. Find what and where the Lord wishes you to give. Give out of faith! I see that as your encouragement to the saints.
I find it intriguing that Jews today do not have a tithe, per say. Fascinating. I also respect your own convictions on the subject, because it is a matter of faith to you. That stands out as a beacon in your post. Very, very good.
Correct me if I’m wrong: Things that a Messianic Jew might have faith to follow won’t be what a Gentile believer has faith for. Like circumcision. Or following the Jewish holidays, which have such a depth of meaning to you. We Gentiles can look. on from the outside and glean much, but we as adopted children are under a new covenant and not under law (neither are you – you are just in the position to understand the richness of you natural heritage). Yet, churches around the country have enslaved believers to the Old Covenant. We all know that, without the Spirit of Christ, we cannot be saved. The old law can never be followed perfectly. So, we have the new covenant written in our hearts. Churches preach Jesus for salvation, but teach old law for sanctification (not all, of course!).
So we all, Jews and Gentiles, must arrive at the same place. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. If Hebrews says that anything done without faith is sin, that must include giving tithes AND offerings. If the church teaches others to tithe out of obligation, force, or intimidation, that is not faith. That is sin.
Thanks, Mimi, for posting your thoughts. I always love to hear your viewpoint. You came across as loving and non-judgemental, and as a sister-saint who walks along side her Gentile brethren. Gosh, that is so special. I hope you continue to post your thoughts when you can, because I and others learn so much from you.
INC,
That is what I thought the knowing of God must mean. It isn’t just a head knowledge, but a knowing of the heart. I believe the head knowledge is easier to grasp. The heart knowing comes by waiting on God, which we all know takes time, patience, and perseverance. The fruit is well worth it!
Jim, thank you for the chapter from Hebrews and Canary, thank you for your thoughts on offerings. You have such a gentle touch in your writing.
Jim, I don’t know what I’m doing wrong!
It seems like 2 out of 3 comments of mine are getting kicked into moderation. I apologize for the extra trouble to you!
Another point regarding the Mosaic Law’s tithing requirement: Gentiles were NEVER obligated to keeping ANY of the Law. The Law was a temporary rule of life for the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob only….and the rule of life ended when the Messiah fulfilled its obligations – by His death and resurrection.
Since even Jews are no longer obligated to the Law, certainly Gentiles cannot feel they are obligated to the obsolete Law for which they were never obligated in the first place.
Besides, Jer 31:31 clearly states that there will be a NEW Covenant UNLIKE the one given to Moses.
When the Bible commands Jews to do something (and even then for only a period of time), why does the mostly Gentile Church feel they are obligated to obeying?
Canary,
Good points about the fruit of walking with Jesus being love and needing to be solid in a church. Welcoming goes beyond a smile and a handshake. I did a study a long, long time ago of the word welcome that’s in Romans 15:7, when Paul writes, welcome one another as Christ welcomed you for the glory of God. I also looked at other places it’s used in the NT. I hope you don’t mind me sharing what I learned–I found it so insightful and encouraging. It can be translated as accept, receive or welcome. Vine says it means to take to oneself or receive. He also says it’s always in the Middle Voice, signifying a special interest on the part of the receiver, suggesting a welcome.
One neat thing I just found (I’d forgotten this!) is that I had penciled into my Vine’s Dictionary that in the Septuagint, the same Greek word is used in Psalm 27:10. I found a translation of the Septuagint online that says, For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord has taken me to himself. Those words mean a great deal to me and give depth to the word welcome! That’s what the body of Christ should be all about!
Remnant,
I applaud your insightful post. Right on!
And Canary – your point on circumcision: Circumcision is a command of the Abrahamic Covenant, primarily (not the Mosaic Covenant ie:Law – although it is reiterated in this commandment).
Since the Abrahamic Covenant is not obsolete and very much in full effect (being an eternal covenant), so are the provisions of this covenant. Part of the provisions of this covenant is the command to circumcise baby boys on the eighth day.
Other provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant state that those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curse them, will be cursed.
A basic grasp of the basics of the covenants makes the New Testament, the Church, Israel (the Jews), God’s requirements, make clear sense. I kinda doubt this type of Biblical teaching was high on the priority of SGM.
INC,
The blog randomly drops comments into moderation or spam. It has nothing to do with you.
INC,
Good stuff! Of course no one minds you sharing these thoughts. I am personally soaking it all up like a sponge.
Remnant,
Hi to you! We are fortunate enough to have another Messianic Jew on board.
In the NT, didn’t some of the Jewish Christians try to force circumcision upon the Gentiles as part of salvation? Paul was especially opposed to this. That is why I brought the subject up. During those days, circumcision became the line in the sand between Jews and Gentiles. Fortunately, spirit-filled believers settled the issue by seeking the mind of the Lord.
Today, I believe that line in the sand is the tithes. When Mimi said that the tithe is not a part of the process of salvation, those were words full of insight. Many church leaders, though not saying it outright, defend the tithe with such force that one feels he/she will be made an enemy of God if the 10 percent isn’t put in the basket every month. That is just plain superstition.
What we do, as new covenant believers, we must do out of faith. When someone forces another to tithe, using fear to manipulate the person, that is sin. Yet, churches continue to promote this law in their meetings, and members continue to be enslaved by it.
GD asked a good question:
“A 34 year old women with 3 little girls whose husband just left her for a newer model and can hardly make ends meet, who just received her weekly paycheck of $250, should she pay her $25 tithe? Should she believe that the sowing and reaping principle will work against her? Should she feel that her Abba will withhold ANYTHING from her?”
The answer should be, “OF COURSE NOT!”. As Peter said to Anninias,” isn’t it your money to do with as you wish?” Isn’t it hers? Shouldn’t she be able to decide how much her faith extends, how much she has the faith to offer up? Given the freedom, she might have faith to offer $50.00 to someone in need, and see amazing miracles as the Lord applauds her generosity by raining provision upon her. It is amazing how freedom leads to greater faith.
I have to amend a thought: another line in the sand is the importance that SGM places on church membership. I have even heard it suggested that if a person wasn’t a member of the local church, his salvation is in question. Maybe this is becoming more of a dynamite issue than tithing!
INC,
I spend plenty of time in moderation, flapping my wings. It’s just the way the system works. No worries!
Thanks, Jim! Glad to know that!
Canary, you, too? Then I’m not alone!
Oh my! Canary, you have just described my former SGM church. As far as the tithe, personally I do not believe that in any way are we commanded to tithe. I do believe that there is a blessing for us when we do.
Canary,
Your 2:06pm post was excellent, filled with exceptional thought. Thanks!
Hey Fred and GD,
It is uplifting for me to find that I don’t fly solo in my SGM experience. Though we can say we learned some good things there, there was so much leaven as to squash the Holy Spirit, in the end. I just want to see my fellow saints walk in the same freedom we have found.
Yep, there is a blessing when we give to others out of faith, whether money, food, time, love, encouragement…and the list goes on. Jesus was very giving, which is a trait we can all emulate, by His grace. I am certainly not against giving, just against forced tithe (give or you will be cursed). I hate superstition, and how it enslaves the saints!
INC, I can’t think of a better moderation buddy. You and me, hanging in cyberspace, waiting for our turn. Hee-hee, isn’t it funny?
Fred,
My experience at CLC is significantly different from what I read here. I do rejoice with you in what Jesus has done for us to set us free. I am sorry for the bad experiences you and others have had.
Regarding legalism, this has been preached against from day one thirty years ago to the present. I know in my heart that there is absolutely nothing I do or could ever do to earn anything from God. Or to add to my salvation. Jesus paid for it all with his death on the cross and I live because he is alive. The many folks that I know at CLC would agree with this statement. If your church is walking in legalism, than something was lost in the translation between Gaithersburg and Chesapeake. Can you describe the legalism you see at your former church?
What about this heavy-handed, controlling authority I am reading about here? What does this look like on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis? Again, this is not my experience at CLC.
Jesus died on the cross to set me free from my sin. He rose from the dead that I may live. I am alive because of Jesus. This is the complete gospel that is preached every sunday at CLC. Occaisionally, I am compared to a worm, when I am reminded that it was my sins that put him on the cross. This is to gain a greater appreciation of what Jesus did for me. And I am grateful.
“Give me Jesus, please. Tell me about Him. Read His words to me. What did He mean? Pray for me like He did. Pray that I will have more of Him and less of me. Now that is truly the sort of leader I will gladly support.” – Canary
AMEN!
30Years,
Were you ever assigned to a care group in CLC? Do you know of families divided on Wednesday nights by such assignments?
When you hear me say pastoral abuse, I’m specifically talking about abuse of authority. Exercising authority in matters that should be left up to the individual.
This may be a small matter to some, but it is clear that a pastor has zero authority in matters such as who you fellowship with.
PFR – if your friend truly thinks that focusing on Paul’s writings will lead one into an unhealthy focus on rules and regulations, your friend has not truly meditated on Paul’s writings. They are full of the gospel of grace, not rules. Paul wants his readers to focus/gaze/meditate on Jesus. This activity will infuse us with Jesus’ love, giving us the desire and power to perform loving acts as he did. His practical instructions were simply outworkings of the revelation he and the other apostles had received, of this holy-love-filled-Jesus.
(I find it astounding that when Paul received opportunities (described in Acts) to explain his faith to secular leaders having authority to set him free, Paul gave accounts of his personal encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. Though he had the intellectual firepower to plead his innocence of charges brought against him, he rested his entire case on the (presumably offensive) statement that a Jew executed by a Roman leader was actually God (the “god” Julius Caesar didn’t appear in Paul’s vision, BTW), actually alive, and actually spoke from heaven to Paul. Has there ever been a more fearless, more faithful witness of Jesus?)
keepinstep,
Though he had the intellectual firepower to plead his innocence of charges brought against him, he rested his entire case on the (presumably offensive) statement that a Jew executed by a Roman leader was actually God (the “god” Julius Caesar didn’t appear in Paul’s vision, BTW), actually alive, and actually spoke from heaven to Paul. Has there ever been a more fearless, more faithful witness of Jesus?)
Hadn’t thought of that. Cool. My SG leaders didn’t look too fondly at people who said they were hearing personally from God. Like it could never happen, except through them.
30years,
You keep asking questions, but do not answer the ones we ask. Have you read my story? Do you have any thoughts on CJ’s belief that pastors stand in the very stead of God? I’m truly interested in your answers. Thanks.
Jesus went to the cross to restore me to the condition that he intended me to be. Sin ruined that, not sins. I was born dead, in the condition of my head, Adam. I sinned because of my condition, being a derivative of Adam.
Jesus took all of my sins 2000 years ago, before I was even born, into Himself. The only thing left between me and my Father was unbelief. Grace through faith comes through embracing HIS provision, His finished work, repenting from my effort of self justification and the affinity of appeasing Him through my fleshly efforts and falling completely on His total reconciling work.
Anything else, any effort to add to that, will leave you either feeling self righteous on your good days or with feelings of condemnation on bad days or moments. For His saints, there is no need for WORM comparisons. We are always FULLY forgiven; His blood once and forever finished that. The are no more sacrifices–DONE FOREVER!The life we now live is HIS LIFE manifesting itself out through us, AS US. Jesus said He could do nothing as a man without His Father, and said that we could do nothing without Him now. Why do we want to jump on the religious merry go round?
What we were missing to become what God intended us to be was LIFE, His LIFE. We were born without LIFE; we were born dead. The good news is that is all restored in HIS SON, and we are in His SON!!!
GD, Preach it, brother!
Canary,
His truth is so powerful, so liberating, so freeing, and compels us to love Him back and want His Life to be released in us so that others will become “infected” by our contagious grace-filled lives. Religious crap NEVER does that, only His powerful Spirit Filled LIFE. Good news, great news, all of Him and none of us. The only part we play is embracing it.
I think that the SGM pastors would be wise to take these posts on Refuge and use them to make their Sunday a.m. sermons! Maybe they already are!
Wow! You folks can really preach the truth! I am blessed reading your posts!
Same here, Fred! I think we are all, in our own ways, trying to describe the lives of love and fulfillment we are experiencing as we’ve found freedom in Christ. I hope it makes others hunger for Jesus. Who knows, maybe even a few pastors will take your advice…
Canary,
My desire for all of you is to know who you are in Christ Jesus. To be able to experience the joy, peace, FUN, LAUGHTER, excitment, anticipation of answered prayers, and the fulfilment of dreams. It is for each of you to not just know but BELIEVE that you are fearfully and wonderfully made. That you are the apples of HIS eye, those HE delights and rejoices over. These things are made possible only through the freedom of Jesus Christ. Laws, legalism, strings attached, stipulations, works and subjigation to man will never bring these things to life in us.
With the Law comes fear. With the living water, comes freedom. With the Law comes oppression. With the living water comes freedom. With the law comes guilt and shame. With the living water comes freedom. No matter how you look at it, the law is mans mode of self destruction, as no one can ever keep it completely.
BUT with our Yeshua..we have not only the power, but the opportunity to do ALL things. With our Yeshua, all things are possible. With our Yeshua comes the knowledge and understanding that we are no longer bound by the law of man, but can now walk in the grace of the Ressurection; in the grace to be who we are (as HE created us), how we are, and being blessed with the priviledge to look into the face of G-D as He daily meets us right where we are, at our point of need. No law or the keeping of such law can ever bring the freedom that comes with knowing HIM well enough to be able to sit and bask in HIS glory with all our “junk” hanging out.
The law tells us that junk is not pleasing to HIM and that we must work, work, work to get rid of the junk. This may get me in deep trouble, but I do not like the term
“new covenant”. I believe there was one covenant with man. I believe that part of that covenant was the promise of a Messiah and Savior. With the death and RESSURECTION of our Jesus, that covenant was fulfilled. For me that completion of the promise brings me freedom to walk in the ways that HE directs me. I see the completion of that promise as a testimony to HIS faithfulness, leading the way for me to trust HIM in all things. I see the Bible as one book with many chapters, not two testaments. It is one book, with early chapters fortelling and forshadowing the promise of the Messiah. And, the last chapters telling the story of the completion of the earlier chapters. The book to me, has no last chapter until I am with HIM in glory
In that completion, the law was made null and void, thus opening the door for the opportunity to have a deep, intimate, personal relationship with HIM, as we are no longer bound to go about the busieness of the law. SO…(deep breath) with that said; NO MAN has the right to tell you that any portion of the law is necessary for you to walk with HIM. It is really a moot point, as for us any part of the law no longer exists. In regards to the tithing issue, for us it is faith. We are not bound to do it. We believe that the COMMAND/LAW to tithe was done away with in the fulfilllment of the covenant. I believe it is a sin for man to demand it, to judge people concerning their views, to require it in order to be in “right standing”. I also know it is not a sin to tithe if that is what one feels they had been called to do.
As for some of the other things you mentioned being observed; those practices are done due to heritage….not law…some for medical reasons…not law. It would be like asking an italian to give up all pasta when they leave the Catholic church and find Jesus….l0l..It is tradition, nothing more…
G.D., in reference to your question concerning the mom. I believe she has been called to take care of those babies..provide for them…..and hopefully someone that believes in and operates in the gift of giving….will meet her other needs….HE DOES NOT REQUIRE or NEED our $$ to complete HIS works or plans…Just our faith that HE is G-D and will do all HE promises…
MiMi
30 years – have you ever led a caregroup? Or hosted one?
Or are you on staff? I am wondering, how could you be in SGM for so long and not have a position of leadership? Or do you?
ps – your pastor – who “lives modestly” as you call it, reportedly has no mortgage on his house.
And thanks you, I’m sure!
INC (11:20), Canary – (2:06) and GD – I am cheering and worshipping as I read your faith, your testimony and the secure place Jesus has in your hearts!
AMEN! AMEN!
GD- regarding “religious crap” – ….I thought I coined that phrase! ;o)
What we were missing to become what God intended us to be was LIFE, His LIFE. We were born without LIFE; we were born dead. The good news is that is all restored in HIS SON, and we are in His SON!!!
AMEN! We are SEATED WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES!!
Last time I checked there weren’t any worms up there!
I have to say I hadn’t seen tithing as being so compulsory but Defender and I have been naive about so many things in the past where we would just go forward according to our faith, and conviction by the Holy Spirit, not men.
”Jesus + ______” is WRONG! No matter what “_______ ” is!
Tithing
Church
Caregroup leadership
Ministry
Affiliation with SGM, T4G, etc, etc, etc….
It’s all about Jesus.
Hallelujah, What a Savior!
Defended
Awe so true, friend!!! Hallelujah, What a Savior! He is our all in all–so exciting so full of grace and truth!!
I see the Bible as one book with many chapters, not two testaments. It is one book, with early chapters fortelling and forshadowing the promise of the Messiah. And, the last chapters telling the story of the completion of the earlier chapters. The book to me, has no last chapter until I am with HIM in glory.
See? That’s what I’m talking about. You can give us perspective. As a Gentile, I tend to separate the two testaments, though I know they are fullments of each other. I didn’t grow up understanding all the customs of the Jewish people. I have to go back to the OT and research if I want to see how a prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus, or why certain things mentioned in the NT are mentioned at all (like circumcision, why some men didn’t drink wine or cut their hair, why shaving of the head was done at the temple).
I would love to see a bunch of Gentile and Jewish Christians come together for a gab-fest. We would all learn so much. Oh…that’s sorta what’s happening here!
Defended, I can hear the choir singing, “It’s all about Jesus!!!!” Go, girl!
Ah, but Canary, I also am a Jew and I am a Jew who sees two covenants…as a matter of fact, I believe that the Lord has made EIGHT separate covenants with man. Mimi and I have differing views as to the details – but as to the major emphasis of the Messiahship of Jesus, we agree. As to His blood redemption, we agree. As to our future hope, we agree.
Not all Messianic Jews agree as to the role of the Feasts and Sabbath for the New Covenant Jewish believers in Jesus the Messiah. Some teach that as a Jew, I am still obligated to keep the Feasts and Sabbaths. (Yet, even these people are inconsistent with the Scriptural mandates for how these things were to be kept – for the Bible mandates Levitical sacrifices for Feasts, mandatory travel to Jerusalem, that sort of thing…which they do not keep, even while teaching that we must keep the Feasts.)
Many Messianic Jewish leaders are even teaching today that there is salvation for the Jew apart from Messiah! Heresy!
For what it’s worth (as I know someone will ask), the Eight Covenants I understand God to have made with man are:
1. The Edenic Covenant: Made with Adam before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. Provisions – tend the garden, eat only plants (except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil). Promise of death for disobedience. Current Status: Still in Effect.
2. The Adamic Covenant: Made with Adam after the Fall. Provisions – ground cursed, pain in childbirth, first promise of Messiah. Current Status: Still in Effect.
3. The Noahic Covenant: Made with Noah. Provisions – never again will the land be flooded, man permitted to eat meat: the rainbow is a token of this covenant. Current Status: Still in Effect.
4. The Abrahamic Covenant: Made with Abraham. Provisions: protection of the Jews (Israel) with cursing or blessing depending on how one treats the Jews, promise of Messiah narrowed to Abraham’s seed, promise of a land (the Promised Land), Circumcision is a token of this covenant. Current Status: Still in Effect.
5. The Mosaic Covenant: Made with Moses for Israel. Provisions – 613 specific commandments with the promise of blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience: the Sabbath is a token of this covenant. Current Status: Obsolete. [Oft times this is the covenant referred to as the Old Covenant and/or The Law.]
6. The Davidic Covenant: Made with David. Provisions – David is promised an eternal House, Throne and Seed – Messiah will come through David’s seed, His House will be eternal, and He will eternally sit on the Throne. Current Status: Still in Effect.
7. The Palestinian Land Covenant: Made with David (I think, doing this from memory). The Land Promise is reiterated because of disobedience: even though Israel has been disobedient to the Mosaic Covenant/Mosaic Law, God says that they will yet inherit the previously promised Land. Current Status: Still in Effect (though yet to be fulfilled).
8. The New Covenant: Made with Jeremiah:. Provisions for this covenant (name the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31ff) include the indwelling Spirit. Current Status: In Effect.
These are only the very basics of the covenants. There are many more provisions in each, more promises, and more outworkings. I have left out discussion on the basis of what constitutes a Biblical Covenant and specific Scriptural references. However, I think you are all familiar enough with the basic covenants (Edenic, Adamic, Noahic, for example) to understand the premise. You may not have called these covenants by the names I have noted, nonetheless, the provisions and outworking will ring familiar to you.
I feel this might be a rabbit trail as to the original intent of the thread – yet I think a basic understanding of covenants helps a believer to know what God requires of us TODAY – as members of His Church, His Body. Understanding of who a covenant was made with, who God intended to keep the covenant, how long the covenant was intended to be in effect, these things all play a role in our current status as Believers on Earth. Understanding of the covenants helps me to better understand and rightly divide Scripture….I don’t get boggled down in Mosaic tithing, for instance, because I understand the Mosaic Law to be no longer in effect. (Besides, under the Mosaic Law, the tithe amounted to 30%, not 10% as usually counted – but don’t tell SGM or I fear they will lay an even heavier burden on their members!).
One must keep in mind to separate the Church from Israel. Just because God required something of ancient Israel or promised something to ancient Israel, does not necessitate that God requires it of the Church (whether one is a Jewish or Gentile believer) or promises it to the Church. For example: God promised Abraham a land – a land that has never been fully occupied by Israel. Is God a liar? NOT! One day Israel WILL inherit and posses the whole of the Promised Land (during the Millennial Kingdom, that literal 1,000 year reign of Messiah on Earth). But has God ever promised the Church a land? Not at all. He has promised the Church an inheritance (a spiritual inheritance), but not a land inheritance. Separate, specific promises are made to separate, specific peoples.
Blessings…from a Jewish believer who loves and adores the Gentile brethren, for it is the testimony of Gentiles who brought me to know my Messiah! (Never be afraid to share Jesus with a Jew – you will provoke them to jealousy!)
Canary,
I have listened to CJ preach for almost 35 years. I have spoken with him on many occasions. His life and preaching have inspired and encouraged me in my own, personal walk with the Lord. I have watched him grow and mature as a Christian and as a leader over the years. I trust his leadership. I see the big picture of what he is doing and where he is going. I believe that in his heart he is doing what God is calling him to do. I have seen and experienced much good fruit, a large orchard full of good fruit, as a result.
He is not perfect. I do not idolize or worship him, as some have unkindly stated. I have seen the imperfections. This is not lip service. I will not publically discuss those imperfections.
Regarding the statement about standing in stead of God, I do not completely agree. I would add “as if” to the beginning of that statement. I will ask Jeff purswell about this statement next time I see him. In regards to “help strong, pray for weak”, I believe he was speaking to leadership. I don’t know the context. But I see one point he was making – pastors can’t help everyone all the time, so help the strong so that they in turn can help those who are weaker. I also know that the pastors, and CJ, do help those who are weak. My own walk with Jesus and my trust in my pastors are not shaken by these statements.
Jim,
I have been assigned and re-assigned to care groups many times. Though each change has been difficult, I know why this is done. As care groups grow in size, there is a need to divide in order to provide more intimate fellowship, which is the purpose of the group to begin with. Fellowship is not limited to care group.
Jim, I appreciate the respectful way you conduct this blog.
I respectfully ask, do you believe there exists enough pastoral abuse as you decribe to justify the sweeping charges that are made on this and the other blog?. These men are real Christians, wholeheartedly serving as they believe God is calling them. The are exercising real leadership. The are not there for looks. They are not there to give suggestions. They are called to lead. In authority? Yes. Heavy-handed and controlling? No. The congregation, as well, are real christians, living spirit-led, grace-filled lives. And yet the pastors and the congregation have been mocked and have been given sweeping, uncharitable judgements. Unkind assumptions have been made without knowing any or all of the facts, or with no way possible of knowing whether those assuptions are true. Unkind statements have been made.
People are hurting, but this kind of discussion is not justified. Respectfully disagreeing is one thing, but public flogging is another. Jim, your comments have been respectful, but as gatekeeper and leader, you are allowing the above to pass through and you are supporting, generally, the content of the other blogs.
I submit that not every situation where people leave their SGM church unhappy and hurting is a direct result of pastoral abuse. I am sorry for the circumstances surrounding these events, but I believe it is wrong to blame SGM, and all that it is and does, for each and every one of these. I really hope you understand what I am trying to say, whether or not you agree. I am not looking for numbers here, but your honest evaluation.
Thanks again for your time.
30 years, I would submit that enough of the situations “where people leave their SGM church unhappy and hurting” ARE a “direct result of pastoral abuse” to justify the blogs’ existence, that the dozens of posted stories reveal patterns of sin–that are not limited to whether one story or another is factual in every detail.
Before I came to these blogs a year ago, I knew how hurt I was by my experiences at CLC (1986-2007) and I thought it might just be me or just my family. I had noticed the painful departure of the pastor who performed my wedding ceremony (C Thompson) and how broken he and his family seemed. I had noticed many other solid folks who left–C and C G-le, the Gl-sses, M and L Wh-te, M D-lly, J E-stridge, and more than I can think of off the top of my head.
30Years said:
The congregation, as well, are real christians, living spirit-led, grace-filled lives. And yet the pastors and the congregation have been mocked and have been given sweeping, uncharitable judgements. Unkind assumptions have been made without knowing any or all of the facts, or with no way possible of knowing whether those assuptions are true. Unkind statements have been made.
And:
People are hurting, but this kind of discussion is not justified. Respectfully disagreeing is one thing, but public flogging is another. Jim, your comments have been respectful, but as gatekeeper and leader, you are allowing the above to pass through and you are supporting, generally, the content of the other blogs.
I’ll do my best to give you my opinion, for what it’s worth. I can only speak for this blog.
I absolutely believe that, starting with myself, the tone of this discussion has been far too unkind. My posting style for 10 months was similar to a shock jock. I think I know why I chose to communicate in that manner, and none of the reasons can be justified by Scripture. We’ll have to discuss what I think my motives were offline.
I have some faithful friends who support the mission of this blog, but were concerned with my tone from the beginning. Some are in SGM, and some are not. Some are non SGM pastors. I ignored their appeals for 9 months, and then, by God’s grace, I was able to stop yelling at SGM, quiet my heart, and consider what they were telling me. I asked for forgiveness on this blog, and have tried to change my tone. I’m not batting 1000, but I think I’ve grown.
My very public position is that I’m opposed to mockery, name calling, and broad brushing of fellow believers. OK, I love mockery, but feel it’s inappropriate if the recipient isn’t laughing with you. I doubt CJ was amused when would post pictures of the pope when posting about CJ.
Regarding our guests, the good people who comment here, the nature of a blog is diverse. Read the “about” page to see what I believe. It’s clear that many of our guests would disagree with me on many issues, but we choose to not divide over them. I never send an email to an egalitarian, asking them to tone it down. I do communicate offline with some of our guests regularly, asking them to reconsider their tone.
Here’s the deal-I don’t lead our commenters. I do have the ability to censor them, but would much rather reason with someone who I think is over the top offline. Many of these conversations have been very fruitful. I fully understand that I created this situation, and led by example by being over the top insulting and snide. The visual in the turning the ship post was perfect-this is a big ship, and I’m patient. It will take time for the overall tone of this blog to change.
More to come…
30 years — Regarding pastoral abuse, run an experiment designed to help you understand, through personal experience, the experiences of many who write here. Pick a strongly held SGM doctrinal position. Do some research on the doctrine, its history and biblical basis, and any opposing views within the pale of orthodoxy.
Set up a meeting with your pastor, at which you discuss this doctrinal position. Argue respectfully and logically for the contrary (orthodox) position; include biblical and historical references to the validity of this position. Don’t be satisfied with his first responses — schedule a couple more meetings for careful discussion of these views.
Include in your discussion some questions about how and when SGM came to its doctrinal position, whether SGM previously held a different doctrinal position, and whether other church members before you have argued for the contrary position. Ask about the extent of Christian fellowship your pastor thinks is possible with those holding the contrary position.
Be respectful in your speech and demeanor, but commit to receiving a thorough, biblically based defense of the SGM position. Refuse to accept any attempt by the pastor to end the discussion before the SGM position, its biblical base, and the merits of an opposing position, are fully discussed. Refuse to allow the pastor to shift the discussion to your spiritual condition or reasons for wishing to discuss this doctrine.
Take notes during the discussions, and note any reaction your pastor has to your note-taking.
When scheduling follow-up meetings, ask if you can bring a friend to sit-in, and note the response and how the pastor makes his response. Throughout the series of meetings, take notes of your pastor’s responses, his emotional state, and any attempt to change the subject from a discussion of the doctrinal position to a discussion of your own spiritual condition. If he does attempt to do this, ask him why this is germane to the discussion of SGM’s doctrinal stand on the issue at hand.
After completing this experiment, report back to us on how you were treated in the meetings — particularly the later meetings — plus the content and tone of any followup discussions held with your care-group leader. Describe to us your perception of your reputation among your church’s leadership, following this entire experience.
Include in your report, at what point, and under what circumstances, your pastor asked you to consider changing your membership to a non-SGM church.
Remnant,
Very interesting. Thank you.
I am not expert enough on what you wrote to have an opinion, but I am taking it in. I don’t mean to get into a discussion on who is right or wrong, of course. Don’t know enough to do that. It’s just so nice to hear about our Jewish brethren, and how they view their faith. Of course, salvation apart from Jesus is heresy, as you said (I’ve read about that and was shocked that it is taught. Paul would have a fit!). But you and Mimi have an understanding of the history of Jews and the OT that aid in my understanding of the richness of our faith. I love it!
What I see in Mimi is her strong faith in how she walks with G-D. You can hear her passion for Jesus in her words, and she doesn’t limit anyone else by expecting them to have the same convictions in those little, gray areas. I wish more Gentile Christians would follow her example. It is a good one. It is sad (but amusing, at times) to see Gentile believers adopt laws that were never meant for them. How it strangles the faith!
I hope you and Mimi continue to post with this little community of saints, to add your own unique perspective to the discussions. My heart is filled with joy that we have Jewish and Gentiles Christians relating with each other in a loving way. I’m sure it happens often, but this is my first time experiencing the connection.
We especially need to hear about how the leaven has moved into the Gentile churches over the centuries. We have to identify these things so we can purge them, and walk further in the grace we have been given, maybe over at the “moving on” thread, if Jim doesn’t mind.
I do have a question for either you or Mimi: The Jews brought Jesus to the Gentiles. Then, Christianity became a Gentile thing. The Gentiles are bringing Jesus to the Jewish people. Won’t there be a time when the Jews once again are primarily spreading the faith? If that is true, shouldn’t we the church offer that gospel to the Jews in its purity, without the leaven? Boy, do we have a long way to go!
30years,
Respectfully, I believe your response to the “pastors stand in the very stead of God” is not very thorough. It should shock all believers when a church leader thinks there needs to be any man standing between a Christian and God, except Jesus Christ. Or when a leader adopts as much authority as that. If I had my bible near, I would offer scripture to support my position. You probably know those verses pretty well, having been in SG for 30 years. Many are found in Hebrews.
I will have to disagree with your assessment. But thanks for addressing my question.
30 years said -
I submit that not every situation where people leave their SGM church unhappy and hurting is a direct result of pastoral abuse. I am sorry for the circumstances surrounding these events, but I believe it is wrong to blame SGM, and all that it is and does, for each and every one of these. I really hope you understand what I am trying to say, whether or not you agree. I am not looking for numbers here, but your honest evaluation.
30, you make the same assertions over and over.
You can believe what you want, you are free! But you might also be wrong.
Clearly you are comfortable with the pyramidic shepherding type of church authority.
You keep coming back so apparently you don’t like to think you are wrong but if you haven’t experienced the heavy hand of pastoral abuse then thank God. It might even be instructive to humbly wonder how you have gone thru 30 yrs without feeling it.
Anyway, if you aren’t going to answer the questions about yourself and your personal experience, and level of leadership then I respectfully ask why would you continue posting? You are so vague and comment with such a broad brush yourself about SGM.
30 years, I respect you greatly for coming on this blog and expressing your opinion. After reading your last post, I have a concern that you really do not know what has been revealed within SGM churches especially during this last year. There have been very real situations of abuse, control and manipulation uncovered. These situations have involved real people with real lives. God said ENOUGH and He began revealing and uncovering wrong doctrine, abuse, control, manipulation, and ungodly authoritarianism. This has not been uncovered in one SGM church but in many. The uncovering was the work of God, not man. God is using these blogs to protect His children.
Defended,
What you wrote above:
“AMEN! We are SEATED WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES!!
Last time I checked there weren’t any worms up there!”
cracked me up!
Thanks!
I’m glad if anything I wrote was a blessing!
keepinstep,
What you wrote at 11:45 am today reminded me of part of my experience (to clarify, this was in a non-SGM church). The pastor and I were talking about worship and I was trying to figure out a way to tell him that I found the worship dry without being offensive. I was being muddled in my expression and he suggested I email him. So I did. I wrote several emails to him after researching and reading. I quoted Piper and even found some Jonathan Edwards quotes that expressed what I was trying to say, because I thought he would listen to their thoughts even if he didn’t want to hear mine. It turned out that he was quite perturbed that I would think he needed instruction about worship. (This is how he saw what I was doing).
Those kind of attempts at back and forth discussions and questions really reveal the heart.
Keepinstep… your a stitch. LOL
You know, sometimes God’s timing is just really unreal. After I wrote my last comment this afternoon I was looking through some emails for a coupon. I unexpectedly ran across an email response to some of those I had written on worship–I thought I’d deleted it long ago. The reply exemplified the extent to which poor communication was taking place and ended, “rather than encouraged, your emails left me discouraged and probably to some degree hurt”. Later he expressed more than hurt. I wasn’t trying to encourage or discourage, just write down my thoughts. This is one of those red flags that I didn’t recognize at the time–the pastor thinks the members are there for him, rather than him being there for the sheep.
In every church situation people should be able to say a situation needs to improve and if they have any thoughts on it, they should be able to say here are some ideas for a solution. I wasn’t trying to be an uncooperative nor was I trying to do any kind of personal attack. Yet the whole thing just centered on him. That ego-centric view of everything is so harmful. I had worked at being appreciative, but I found that there was a limit to which I could express my thoughts that something needed improvement. As I said earlier, the way leaders deal with these situations (and let me say especially when the member is being “uncooperative”) is so revealing.
INC,
I saw the same thing when my ex-pastor said with false humility, “I’m sorry you can’t seem to trust me.” Ugh…
30years,
Be honest. Have you read any of our stories? Or do you avoid them because you believe they are gossip/slander? Just curious.
30 Years,
For just one story, click here. I give you this because it can be a little difficult to find these if you are a little new here. This is a true story, verifiable by many, so please consider it.
30 years, for just one more story, click on my name–as I’ve invited you to do before–especially since my story takes place at your church CLC.
remember the commercial “how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?”
I wonder, how many stories does it take the get to the heart and mind of a self-absorbed commenter/observer?
Perhaps it depends on how earnest the “licker” is in getting to the center of the tootsie roll.
If one reads these stories with the presupposition that the author is spinning these stories against the beloved SGM leadership, then what other conclusions can one come to.
Greetings,
In the early days of CLC, we would have open-mike sundays, where anyone was free to say whatever they wanted. Many changes have taken place over the years as the leadership of CLC/SGM listen to and follow the Lord as He leads. The changes are carefully thought through and put in place with a full and complete explaination as to what is happening and why. More on changes later.
Defended
I was a care group leader awhile back for five years. I stepped down focus on my struggling career. I am not presently in a leadership position.
Keepinstep
The leadership at CLC desires a reasonable level of unity in doctrine and direction of the church. This allows for greater ability to accomplish the work God has for us. I am free to discuss any issue I want, as I have done with the leadership. I am here at CLC to serve, not to be served, or demand things be done my way.
Acme
Not only have I read your story, I saw glimpses as it was unfolding. I spoke with your former husband regarding his situation in the midst of your long trial and offered my help and encouragement. I am truly sorry for the grueling path you had to walk in order to care for your family. (By the way, one of the families you listed as leaving has retuned to CLC).
Juli
I can very easily interpret your “self-absorbed” comment as being directed at me. True? If so, how in the world do you know me enough to publically make that kind of accusation? I am a sinner in need of grace, but where does this come from?
All
I have read all of the above mentioned stories and others. No one is making these up or lying. These are real folks who really were hurt. Devestated, in many cases. I can not adequetly express my grief and sorrow. But I am truly sorry.
I have no doubt that pastoral abuse has taken place. In one instance, they have admitted this and asked forgiveness. Other pastors have been replaced. But I will not offer any specific comments on those stories. If I do so publically, people would be hurt. People would be unfairly judged. This would be wrong for me to participate in because I am unble to hear from all sides of those involved in each situation.
Pastoral abuse of authority, in my opinion, involves deliberate words and actions. Mismanagement, mistakes, and incompetence are not abuse. Neither is confronting sin. The men are there to provide the counsel that they believe is best, according to God’s word and the leading of the holy spirit. They are not there to simply tell folks what they want to hear. Some folks claim abuse simply because they did not like the counsel given to them.
The public mocking and unfair assumptions on all of SGM are not justified. I know many, many families who live grace-filled, spirit-led lives. We serve those who are weak and hurting. We share the complete gospel of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection with those who do not know him. I could list thirty years worth of specific examples and testimonies of people saved, families restored, singles who were broken, lost and hurting who are now married and enjoying God’s grace. On and on, miracles small and great.
You don’t hear about all this good stuff on these blogs. You hash and rehash what you think is awful and bad in all of SGM. From one end to the other. No detail has been left unturned. Pastors have been publically and unfairly raked over the coals. People have been described in unkind ways, publically. By other Christians. This kind of criticism is not right. Because I love and care for all of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I must say that I belive this is harmful to you all, as you engage in this kind of condemning of SGM over and over.
For as long as SGM has been in existance, there has been discussion on how best to care for those in the church. Some of it kind, some not. Changes have been made and will continue to be made to better serve the sheep at SGM.
Jim has demonstrated great humility in his non-authoritarian leadership here on this blog. I believe in his heart he desires to help SGM fix what it needs to fix as it continues to grow and mature. I pray that what he has to say will be heard.
“I am a sinner in need of grace, but where does this come from?”
For those of you keeping up with my commentary… is this a magic wand I see?
Alakazam poof!
Haaaaachhooo! I just sneezed on the moral relativism pixy dust.
30 Years,
My opinion only: I think you are soooooo indoctrinated after your 30 years in SGM that anything coming from you, although TOTAL meant by you as absolutely true, comes from that insidious, creeping, and gradual duping of having the ability to objective evaluate what has occurred to countless people, many who post here.
My brother 30years (I mean that affectionately), as I read your repeated defense of your beloved leaders, I get the feeling that your loyalty (which by itself is admirable—honesty) is blinding you. You are so emotionally involved in SGM, because your whole psyche and social structure is so tied to SGM that you just cannot really enter into many of our worlds; instead, you give us the impression that we are merely misunderstanding the wonderful grace-filled, spirit-lead leadership—REALLY? You write, “Many changes have taken place over the years as the leadership of CLC/SGM listen to and follow the Lord as He leads.” Really, how can you objectively measure that? This kind of thinking can be really dangerous and has lead many into very bad places that have indelibly harmed many families and children.
As I write these words, I am sadly aware that your reaction to my words here will cause you to feel the need to show me how mistaken I am and how noble SGM and its GOD-lead leadership is. I sincerely wish I could say it a different way.
Just so you know, there was a day when my wife and I felt exactly as you do and would have viewed these posts here as divisive and plain wrong. That day has passed and has been transitionally painful but very well worth it–thus the Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM
John,
I have to say thank you for cutting to the chase. 30years’ comment left me at the mouth of the yawning chasm of a mental loop remembered from discussions with my pastor which would leave me thinking I needed to be more this way, do more of that thing, etc…
Thanks for throwing a rope to pull me back!
30 years, you observed some of what happened with me. Here is an excerpt from my letter to CJ that outlines the good, the bad, and yes, the abusive.
In the 21 years between my first and last Sundays at CLC, I tasted much that is good and wonderful, because God is so good, so faithful, and so kind. In that time, I have also tasted much that is bitter and even poisonous—these include
- the fearful avoidance of those who may not be “CLC-Christians” or may not be godly enough even if they’re in CLC, of our neighbors, of our communities (including the public schools)—and the subsequent pressure to fit in.
- the difficulties recognizing our very creatureliness
o that the brain is an organ too, that malfunctions and may need medications to help regulate its functions,
o that behavior may be affected in ways that are not governed by prayer, preaching, and self-control
o that emotions, instincts, personalities, and more are God-given – and not suspect
o that separation and divorce are sometimes sad necessities
. . .
My beautiful 8-year-old grew so despairing that he talked about drowning himself in the bathtub–our first trip to the ER soon followed, and meds, and a therapist. She wondered why he was so angry. He felt stupid because of his learning disabilities—he couldn’t read yet. He developed a mega-colon—this meant his stomach hurt pretty much all the time and he often smelled like poop. He had sensory integration issues—that made shoes and noise and smells completely overwhelm him. He also had a father who regularly told him he was evil, disciplined in anger, refused to train him—and kept comparing him to other CLC boys. He also had a mother who put up with this—and didn’t just take him and run.
My own depression deepened-–I had no girlfriends at church (in part because I was employed not at home; my kid was in public school, not at CLS or homeschooled; and folks are busy busy busy with CLC activities), my home life was so NOT CLC, and my extended family just wanted me out of there. We had been moved from one care group to the next regularly – and I had become numb as each time I would walk the balance beam of trying to speak well of my husband and being honest about our struggles. Sharing honestly generally led to folks praising my humility and openness—and then avoiding us like the plague. I learned to be silent, to become more and more invisible.
This changed at a big women’s meeting—perhaps fall 2003 or early 2004—when Carolyn and the girls had everyone fill out questionnaires about our needs. I wept as I wrote how desperately I needed a mentor to help me with my special needs boy. Your daughter Kristin called—D J-nes had leapt at the chance—and I wept again at God’s mercy. Our friendship was rekindled—and she pulled strings to get me into care group with them and the C-wans. For the first time in so long, I got hugs when I went to care group—and D and V took me out to dinner for my 40th birthday.
At one of our Saturday morning coffees, I was finally able to tell D about the abuse in our home—clearly, honestly, without euphemisms. She wept—and called [her husband] who called [our CGL] who called Adam Malcolm—and I grew hopeful. We had a plan—and folks to call for accountability and help.
Counseling sessions tended to focus on Adam preaching the gospel, reminding us again that the Lord has already taken care of our biggest problem. I asked from time to time if perhaps someone with a broken leg, for instance, might need the gospel AND a cast, but was assured that really what was going on was a sin issue. Again I tread the tightrope of speaking the best of my husband and telling the truth about what was happening at home. I found that if I wasn’t specific enough, Adam told us that every man struggled with that. If I was specific and clear enough, Adam told me not to focus on G’s sin. G couldn’t remember what he was supposed to be working on—or would blame us for his anger. He would nod in the meeting and then explain how this really didn’t apply to him or to the situation at home.
However, when J was hospitalized again for a month in 2005 and I thought it very likely that Child Protective Services would be “visiting” and probably removing both J and B from our home, Adam Malcolm and Grant Layman did agree to let the Care Group help me get my husband out of the house. Periodically we would meet together with the pastors to continue counseling–and G grew increasingly hostile with them until he was put under church discipline in 2007.
I begged Adam and Grant to find a mentor for my precious boy, for the “world’s best bookstore” to stock the CCEF pamphlet on domestic abuse, and to train Care Group Leaders to be alert to the signs of domestic abuse, for other women like me who were drowning. I took D with me to entreat them further. They declined.
ewww —- I really miss the edit option that used to be here.
the first line should delete “know”
there should be spaces between paragraphs for easier reading.
acme, I’ve read your story before, but it still grieves me with sorrow for you and anger for others.
May you richly know the care and healing of the Lord for you and your children.
INC…
Glad I could be of help. I’ve been watching this thread evolve and have been curios at the dynamic.
For those who have been following the SGM phenomena have been down this path a few times I’m thinking.
Most SGM defenders come to the blogs with one or all of these:
1.No matter what has happened you should talk about it THAT way
2.You didn’t like what these great leaders had to say so now your mad
3.All churches have their problems
4.Bad things have happened but we are all just sinners… so let us just move on.
As near as I can tell 30years has trotted out some variation of all four of these. The thing that has separated him from others is that he has said things so NICE. He is caring of the “thoughtful” image pretty well just because he is defining humility and then displaying his own definition of humility. In as much as people reflect back his standard he reflects back his affirmation. This is classic SGM methodology.
I am always fascinated by the need people feel for that affirmation.
So imagine my perplexity at watching 30years get away with some very obvious profound evasions and presumptions.
He hasn’t had a disagreement of merit in his time at CLC: non one that would set him at odds with leadership. He is content with his life there. Maybe he has read the stories … maybe he hasn’t. It really doesn’t matter how many of these accounts he digests, the stories here are so far outside of his experience that he can’t imagine they are anything but isolated incidents of incompetence or subjective misunderstanding. Even though he is being nice he is still measuring what he considers to be OUR subjectivity by his own subjective standard. I do soooo love irony.
He felt free to add words to CJ’s “Standing in the Stead of God,” post in an effort to minimize what IS there. It really doesn’t matter that 30years would add “as if” before the sentence. Beyond the fact that he feels free to add to CJ’s words is …uh… bold. However, those two words don’t change the predicate assumption of the Demagogues of Dictated Good.
I know he is being NICE, but notice how often 30years has presumed to offer his own definitions: abuse, humility, righteous communication are three that come immediately to my mind. There are some others hanging out there… your lightning fast minds will notice them as soon as you look. I don’t accept his definitions … not sure why anyone would.
I know he is being NICE but notice how often he flat refuses to answer direct questions.
I know he is being NICE but notice that he plays both side of the depravity fence. We are all just sinners in need of grace … alakazam poof… moral relativism
BUT
CJ’s governance are established by ‘fruit’ … his moral superiority (because what else is FRUIT but effective ongoing moral action??) is the foundation of his leadership and authority.
Hahahaha…. Oh… I do sooooo love irony.
I would offer this … don’t let these guys keep defining the terms of the conversation. They don’t have that right… and certainly we don’t need their affirmation… right?
Well said John. I stand in applause!!
30 Years, it may be that you are happy with the flavor of your church and see nothing wrong with the way this denomination is run. For me, a disinterested observer who left the church more than a decade ago, I see the issue as described at the very beginning of this post:
Taking a closer look, one would have no idea that this church began as a more charismatic church because the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit are hardly noticeable today. In fact the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was changed in 2002 by SGM and the congregation in Chesapeake was never told. Many other changes in doctrine have taken place since SGM turned in a reformed direction and away from the charismatic.
The Chesapeake church is located near the CBN campus and CBN is a charismatic ministry. Many of the members of SGCC attended Regent University, also on the CBN campus and were happier when the church was more charismatic. Things are different now — the church, as I am told, has become more like one of the old Maranatha Ministries churches or a Bill Gothard type “shepherding” or “covering” church. Those who grieve for the old freedom are wishing this had not happened. There are no structures in place for the congregation to vote on a change of direction, only, as you said, the pastors, overseers, and CJ praying and doing what they feel God is telling them to do. What if they don’t hear God correctly because of their own history, emotional wounds, or blind spots? The congregations themselves have no vote so they must depend on this not happening — on CJ always being right. But he isn’t Jesus Christ, so chances are he will not always BE right.
Authoritarian churches can be abusive by their very nature. People who do not have the gift of discernment may easily misunderstand someone’s personality or misread someone’s intentions, then speak into their lives on an issue that is not really there. That was my situation at one time. I searched and searched my heart over an issue, felt like it was not of God, then was told by someone I was prideful for not accepting the correction. But I was told I was being self-righteous if I acted humble and accepted it. These are subtle, dangerous things that break people, especially the weak and already wounded. The church could and should be a joy-filled place, but it ends up being a place overrun with fear of incompetence or inadequacy when governed this way and with an overemphasis on accountability and sin-sniffing.
In previous posts, I have remarked about how sovereignly God brought restoration of former broken relationships between me and my CGL’s wife, the pastor’s wife, and my former friends. God did this! It was amazing, unexpected, and wonderful. We CAN all live in unity and peace, though I suspect it may take quite a long time before some of us will be able to trust again and that time needs to be given us by people like you, 30 years. We need your compassion and thank you for expressing it in your last post. We crave it, actually, because it was so lacking in our previous experiences. If more people were broken over their sin and over how they have contributed to the woundedness of people like Acme, I think this blog might become unnecessary. I pray that one day that will happen. Meanwhile, I will continue to pray for more people like you to come here and listen and grieve alongside those who grieve as that is a biblical principle that greatly aids the healing process.
As I read the conversations that go back and forth here, I began to think back over my 21 years in
Sovereign Grace Ministries. Truly, when I came to be part of Sovereign Grace (known at PDI at
the time), I was very attracted to what I saw. There were families that had the appearance of being
completely whole and thriving. It was very much something I so longed for in my marriage and
family. I was pregnant with our second child (of five). We had struggled those first almost 10
years of our marriage. I had great hopes that coming to be part of this ministry would bring great
restoration to my marriage. However, there was always something that seemed to reach out at
me and draw me like a magnet that wasn’t good. It had the appearance of something wonderful
and yet at the same time it left me feeling inferior, left out, and striving to make my family good
enough and myself of course, in order to fit in. I remember feeling so pressured to make my
children obey and conform. Spankings turned into control. I felt controlled. I was trying so hard
to change my children from the outside, but I knew in my heart I was not touching their heart.
I remember my parents, who are not part of Sovereign Grace, becoming very concerned. My mother
confronted me that she felt that I was being too hard on my children. I remember feeling like I
was being attacked by her concern when in fact I wasn’t at peace with what I was doing either.
I was so torn. I was trying so hard to conform my children and my marriage to this model that
was before me. It did not work. It was not of the Spirit. Eventually my children began to hate
the church. I did learn to back off from the heavy disciplining of my children. I began to relax
and allow myself to be led more by the Spirit of God. However, my family never did look like the
model. In fact, we also never were allowed to be in any kind of leadership, and in my heart of
believed it was because we were not good enough. My husband wasn’t doing well the whole time.
He stayed frustrated with himself. He couldn’t measure up to the high standard of Godliness that
was held out to him. I believe he finally just gave up. My older two sons left the church as they
got older. They will not go anywhere now. They struggle to believe that God exists. I finally
reached a point in my church experience that I accepted the fact that I would always be on the
outside of the church looking in. The only ministry I was allowed to participate in was Children’s
Ministry, the kitchen, but never allowed to be a part of praying up front for people, leading a
women’s Bible Study. I love to sing and before coming to be part of Sovereign Grace 21 years ago,
had always sang in choirs, ensembles, and even duets with my husband, but with our disfunctional
family, I felt too discredited to ever particpate any more than singing in the choir while they had it.
I would have never felt that I sing well enough to ask for an audition to be on the praise team. Everything had such a high level of perfection to it, that I felt left behind. I remember for years working on being the best wife,
the best mother, and at keeping my home as tidy as possible at all times. I think somewhere in the back of my
mind I was hoping and trusting we would be restored to such a level that someday we would be
able to be care group leaders. It turned into a thing that I was striving for in my mind.
I do not want you to think this was all I cared about. I would bury these feeling down deep, and
turn to God and comfort my brokenness that somehow I know Jesus isn’t like this. God the
Abba Father is not like this. He really does love us just as we are. He doesn’t put a standard
out there so high that we can never reach it. He doesn’t only pick a few and let the rest of us
go to “Hell.” When that ugly doctrine (Calvinism) creeped into Sovereign Grace Ministries, that
is the moment that I believe the Holy Spirit was so grieved that he was silenced. My older child
and I had many discussions about this. My oldest son went in and sat with a pastor expressing
how much he didn’t agree with this. We were told in our church that this is how it works:
First of all, everyone is running to ”Hell” and God simply reaches out and chooses only certain
ones to save. This is ”Heresy” and it is a lie from the pit of “Hell.” I know I am speaking strongly
here, but with this message, a broken person will never believe that there is a ”Abba Father”
God in Heaven who loves people, and who sent His only son, that whosoever believes in Him,
will not perish but have everlasting life. The only people who will ever believe such a lie are
those who have a lot of natural self-discipline and pull off walking white enough and have
families that look like the perfect model, with homes that are large and function well for
large groups to meet in them. But the broken person who enters them will never feel that they
fit in. And those that pull off this being white enough eventually grow weiry and tired of
functioning in their own strength and end up dry and hungering for something much much
more – “A Move of the Holy Spirit.” And those that continue to walk this way only need hit
a trial in their life that tries them to the core, and then they find out how bankrupt they really
are. When the broken enter the church, they sit to the back. They do not feel they can ever
fit into this lofty place. Where is ”Jesus?” Where is ”Holy Spirit?” Where is “Abba Daddy?”
And then, we give the broken a list of things to work on in their personal life. Try these disciplines.
Confront, confront, confront. And then when we see no change, we believe they just don’t
want to. We must not waste our time on people who are not serious about changing. The fact
is we do not know how to help them. Do we think about praying? I don’t mean say a little
prayer with them. What about warring prayer! What about fasting for them! What about
crying out for the Holy Spirit to come into their lives. And then the broken who are sitting
to the back, on the outskirts looking in see the honoring begin. People being applauded for
their perfect families. They sink further into dispair. Some may even try harder. They may
come down harder on their broken family trying to make them change. Because that is what
they are being told by example to bring change. Years past, hopelessness is setting in. Restoration
hasn’t come. Families are struggling behind the closed doors of their homes. Marriages are not as perfect
as they appear on the outside. People are saying to themselves “There must be more!!!”
Finally in dispair, they get the courage to walk outside of Sovereign Grace to look for something
somewhere because down deep in their hearts they know there is more. This isn’t it. Some
end up totally out of church, others find there way because they understand the fact that God has
really never left them.
This is the truth!!! I finally realized that there was a “bad” spirit that had latched itself on me
through this ministry. No, I do not believe it has been the intentions of Sovereign Grace
Ministries for this to happen. I do not believe that in its beginnings that anyone ever dreamed
of the problems that have been happening. I remember telling Bob Kauflin (because he asked us
back many many years ago), that one of the problems my husband and I could see with the movement
was exclusiveness. This hasn’t gone away. There has been an elitism to the theology this
movement embraces as if to say that we are the superior movement who has matured and holds
to pure sound doctrine and that there are no other movements or churches that can be trusted \
like ourselves. This is “arrogance.” As dangerous as it is for an individual Christian to isolate
themselves, I believe isolating ourselves as a movement from all our fellow believers in other churches is equally dangerous. We need to remain students and truly humble, understanding that we will be learning about
God for the rest of our lives. We need the iron sharpening iron that God’s Word speaks of as well as the gifts that each
bring to the table. I do believe there are very real Christians in this movement. But, in reality I have not seen hardly any salvations occurring at the alters of the church. I have only seen new converts to the way of thinking that this movement draws people into. It latches onto you and it holds you with the allusion that someday you will be good enough
and white enough. And the few that make it into the inner circle feel so good when they first get there, but eventually the way gets very hard for many of them. And add the burden that if any of your children have spiritual problems you
will have to step down from leadership, that rules out a lot of us. Again we have added another standard to our
usefulness in the Kingdom. We must have every one of our children saved. But, what about the “Doctrine of
election?” Does that mean that those in leadership are the ”Elect” and the rest of us will be in doubt until eternity
confirms which way it goes for us? Does the fact that we make it into leadership secure our salvation? These are
the kinds of lies that this kind of doctrine when misused open up the mind to. Satan has a complete playground provided for him in this movement. It is so so very dangerous!!!!!!
I have unloaded a lot of “stuff” from my heart here. It may take a while to sift through, but I am certain many
have expereinced this “stuff.” I mourn over the years I fear I have wasted with my children. But, I believe that
God has provided a way of escape for me. I am thankful that he opened my eyes to the truth. I am equally
thankful that he gave me “great courage” to walk out the door and take my children to a ”safe” place. A place
with “green pastures.” A place where the “Holy Spirit” is welcomed. A place where my children and I can
heal. A place where brokenness is the norm, not “perfection.” A place where I believe God is healing the
brokenness and giving great hope for a future. A place where I know I will be able to use my gifts as God
leads me. I am excited about the future. I was waiting for this and it has now come. I never knew though
that it would be this way. When God opened my blindness to see that even though there have been
good things in this movement, there has been much wounding for me and my children. I almost stayed
too long, but praise God even though he had to put me on my back ill in 2007, he stood me back up
on my feet and restored my health, and got in my face and told me to take my children and get out.
I obeyed and my children and I are being set free!!!!! My husband is in the hands of God. I still
believe in miracles!!! But whatever happens, God can still use me, a sinner saved by Grace, and who
now walks as a saint, not because I am white enough, but because Jesus in me is white enough. The
goal isn’t for me to attain “Care group status” or “Pastor’s wife status” and then I know I have arrived,
but that the gifts and works that God planned beforehand that I would walk in are exactly what I am
going to do. Every part of the Body is important and necessary. We can’t be healthy with any one of
them being absent. Everyone is needed. The difference between me and the pastor is – “He has
a lot more to be accountable for!” But my value and usefulness to God is completely equal in God’s
eyes. To be great in God’s Kingdom we must be a “servant.”
To the broken tonight I pray, “Oh, Abba Daddy, blessed Jesus Christ our Savior, and Holy Spirit our
helper and comforter, please touch the brokenhearted tonight. Please reveal who you really are.
Correct these wrong expressions of who you are and what you are like. Forgive each of us when
we have distorted what you are like to those around us. Please help us. Holy Spirit rain down on
us tonight, on your church. We need you desperately!
Love, Esther (Sylvia)
Hi all, 1st post. I’m a long-time lurker; still in SG… my brother/defender, 30 years, is not the only one in SG reading here. I have a lot to say to him, seatbelts please:
30 years, it seems from your posts that you are (still) not hearing the purpose of this blog. It is to call the system which is creating these stories to take a look at itself and to consider that each and every child of God who is harmed is one too many. You’ve stated that you believe their stories to be true. OK, so then how many cases do you think it would require for God to turn His ear and to hear to their cries? So how many should it then take for SGM to turn their ears??? These folks aren’t posting on this blog purposing to defame. They love(d) their SG churches, pastors, and friends just as you and I now do. They want to see the abuses stop where they are occurring. They want to see the offenders that are unrepentant to repent. They want to see the leaders of those pastors who “mismanage, make mistakes and are incompetent,” take responsibility for placing them; to ‘own up to’ and show genuine, demonstrated compassion for those individuals wounded as a result of those “incompetencies.”
30 Years you said: “The changes are carefully thought through and put in place with a full and complete explaination as to what is happening and why.”
So, in other words 30 years, you get a thorough explanation of any changes that will affect you and your family after the fact, without any feedback sought in advance by the pastor from the congregation, thus nullifying the congregation’s God given role? That’s what I get at my SG church too.
“Some folks claim abuse simply because they did not like the counsel given to them.”
This statement has absolutely nothing to do with this blog. Obviously people from most churches leave at times because they don’t want to change, avoiding counsel. Do you mean counsel like: women should stay in abusive homes? Or maybe counsel like: your baby was raped, and you’re going to have a chance to forgive today? That type of counsel? The fact that some folks leave churches just to avoid repentance over known sin does not lessen in any way SG’s responsibility for those they have wounded due to their actions or inactions.
“The public mocking and unfair assumptions on all of SGM are not justified.”
30 years, hate to tell you this, but I am currently one of the “all of SGM,” you mention, and I really don’t feel mocked at all. I feel ashamed that the church I’ve chosen to associate with would not be running to make restitution in every possible way to each precious one who has been injured. I am grieved that instead they lurk in the shadows and try to sweep injustices under the rug. There is a pattern, which is clearly visible, resulting from the structure of the ministry and its failures. If you don’t see one, I suggest that you need to do a little more reading here and pray that you are not deceiving yourself or perhaps you’d be happier back in your pew where folks don’t know that their brethren are being abused (and no one will ever tell them.) Why are you so eager to defend Sovereign Grace Ministries, and not the wounded women, babies, families that are the trail they are leaving? SG doesn’t need your help in defending itself; they do it quite well by their silence.
“We share the complete gospel of Jesus’ …I could list thirty years worth of specific examples …You don’t hear about all this good stuff on these blogs.”
30, I’m your fellow SG member. We toot our own horn quite well; we don’t need this blog to do it. The excellencies of SGM are made known in SG on a regular basis for all who will hear. They are a part of our culture, we know we’re special, we’ve got the gospel. That’s why our church doesn’t associate with those outsiders (yeah, our brethren in Christ.) Besides which, I believe that most folks posting here are not disputing the good that has come as a result of SG. There is much good. My family has received much good. However the good of Sovereign Grace does not excuse evil nor demand our silence. The fact is that all the “good stuff,” becomes overshadowed by darkness….a little leaven.
“Pastors have been publicly and unfairly raked over the coals.”
I Tim 5:21 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
Eph 5:13-14 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light
30 said: “Because I love and care for all of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord, I must say that I belive this is harmful to you all, as you engage in this kind of condemning of SGM over and over.”
Ya know what 30? I’m concerned that it’s harmful for your soul to defend SG, instead of the innocent. This blog exists because SG doesn’t respond to the cries of its sheep. (SG we’re crying do you hear us?? We’re sitting in YOUR pews, in YOUR churches, and we ARE reading, do you hear us??)
Are the posters on this blog perfect, without sin? No, we’re not. Is there sin evident in those posting at times? Yes, but there’s sin in your church and your house too. Here, folks have a chance to heal, to help one another work through the pain inflicted on them by those who should have cared for them. We (especially) don’t have any right to expect anyone to work through pain instantly, but should extend grace as they go through a process, even if it’s a little messy at times. Grieving and sanctification are both processes that occur over time, they’re not an event. I am regularly amazed at the kindness and mercy these precious ones have shown, continuing to desire good for SG, although the hope for reform has seemed so bleak. I see far more encouragement here than the “condemning,” you see. Must be my glasses.
“Jim has demonstrated great humility in his non-authoritarian leadership here on this blog.”
30, Yes Jim does show great humility in leading. It seems peculiar however, that you commend Jim for “his non-authoritarian leadership” here on the blog but have been willing to submit to authoritarian leadership for ??? years, hmmmm? As for me, I can’t wait to be free!! …to freely and joyfully submit to elders, men who will listen to their congregation, value their wisdom, and acknowledge that we are all saints and priests.
30, I’m praying for you, really.
(You guys do amaze me. Thanks, I was blind. Jesus has used you to help me get through my “stuff.”)
Wow Hope, you know how to make an entrance!
You made some good points-I hope that you’ll be heard.
Welcome!
30 years:
I am a former member of CLC and have been around CLC for ages. CLC has been through much legalism, i find it curious you say that it was taught against from the beginning, which might be true, but even CLC pastors have admitted to me that they went through more legalist times, and i think the church is still very legalist now, its just harder to see. I will say from personal experience, and from talking to others that have left CLC, that most of what is happening, the legalism and abuse of authority, is hard to see when youare there. many people who have left have shared with me how there eyes were opened to it after they left and they could not beleive they did not see it. I am the smae way, I saw some small stuff, but the hubris of being in CLC, led me to ignore most of it until i left and could relaly see it.
As far as legalism being taught, i do beleive it is still very much tuaght and encouraged. The explanation of legalism that i find the best is that if sin is a hole, we can build a fence aroudn teh hole to keep us out of it, which is good, but if we make crossign the fence the sin now, especially fo rothers, than that is leaglism. This i beleive CLC does alot. The talks on modesty, while maybe somtimes helpful, definalty codify standards that are not in the bible, like a purse down the front or spaghetti straps being always wrong, and at CLC if someone is wearing one they are thought of as sinning. Or when CJ spoke from the front during a family meeting and said how if those that were watching “”My Big Fat Greek WEdding” were sinning becuase there was premarital sex in it – that was legalism. Anytime they start making laws, even for the noblest of intentions, that are above GOd’s laws, they are being just like the pharisees, who despite the bad wrap they have gotten were very “Godly” and the best party in Judism at the time, they just tried so hard to follow God that they made rules of how to do it, and then held others to those rules.
However i think the bigger problem with the authority issue at CLC and SGM is not that there are abuses, there could be abuses at any church with any sinners. The biggest problem is there is no recourse for their abuses and the pastors/apostles/cj have set themselve up as an authority onto themselves, with no oversight from teh congregation. Everywhere has abuses and everyone can make bad decisions or mistakes, but when the leadership in SGM make a bad decision or mistake, it is enacted as SGM law with no discussion, no recourse, and often times without informing the congregation(such as the seperation=divorce and abuse isnt a reason for seperation decision). Some of these changes have been good, however the process is frought with peril and leads to problems. In theory dictarorship is the best form of goernemnt for getting good things done. No delays, no red tape, can do what is needed right away, can do what is best for peopel and doesnt have to worry about politics getting in teh way, etc. The problem is, if the dictator is not perfect, you have real huge issues. This is the problem i see with CLC and SGM.
So very very very true.
And soooo paradoxical that symphonies of self ascribed horn tooting GOOD can come out of a Reformed Theology pulpit.
Ah well… this is what you get when a bunch of hippies who’ve consumed to many Scooby Snacks drive the Reformed Theology Mystery Machine to upper middle class religious respectability.
I do sooo love irony
Esther/Sylvia,
You are free–hallelujah! I can feel HIM in your words. Isn’t it amazing how Abba can turn tragedy into victory?
Thanks for sharing your heart–I sense HIM in it.
Presbyterian,
If a woman comes into church wearing spaghetti straps and I condemn her for that or think that she is in sin for wearing that clothing, I am dead wrong. Likewise, if a woman is wearing what anyone would consider modest clothing, she has not earned any bonus points or grown closer to God as a result. Both of these are legalism. This is preached against on a regular basis.
Scripture states that whether you eat, drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. The leadership of CLC desires that this verse be applied and lived out in their church. This is a pretty high standard. They want scripture to be the standard, not worldliness. So when they preach on godliness and mention some specific examples, they are encouraging the congregation to make wise choices with scripture as the standard. And the sermon on this topic always includes a strong warning to guard our hearts against legalism. And the hope and promise of God’s grace is loudly proclaimed to us sinner in need of his grace.
John
I am not trying to be nice. Nice has a very shallow ring to it. I may be dull at times, but I don’t want to be “nice”. I want to apply the above mentioned scripture as I post here and reflect something of the love and life of Jesus who lives in me.
Hope
The non-authoritarian line was an attempt at humor.
I have already explained how CLC hears those who are hurting. I have personally witnessed resolution, reconcilliation, and much healing among the members here at CLC. I have never claimed we are perfect, or superior, or anything like that.
I did not state that all of the stories are true. I also did not say they were false.
I am not trying to “toot the horn” of SGM. But the good work God is doing on a daily basis among hundreds of Christians who are members of SGM is ignored here.
Hope- You have outlined the “why” of this blog soooooooooooo well—thankyou for coming forth and speaking what God is exposing in the cracked structure of SGM: “IT IS A CALL TO THE SYSTEM WHICH IS CREATING THESE STORIES TO TAKE A LOOK AT ITSELF.” True,so true! We pray many will be reading your post, Hope!!
30Years- You are kind in your letters—and also–there is much ‘letter of the law’-meaning, not hearing the HEART of all these stories. Wounded people who have been discarded after going through: all the hoops,timeframes,meetings,confrontations,searching for own sin issues etc etc…only to be told by the overseeing ‘apostle’ to run along and just forgive your perpetrators,and as we heard on 2 occasions “don’t expect me to come in on a white horse to make everything right.”—These are some of the significant leadership structures and policies the people on this blog are bringing to light BECAUSE SGM has hidden and quieted their sinful patterns of abuse and abuse of authority——now it is all in the light—–we pray all in SGM (so many many whom we love) will experience the removal of the “singlasses” by the Hand of Holy Spirit so they can once again behold the Son—this is all about deliverance and redemptions for Gods people!
Hope,
I just want to say “welcome”. Your post was illuminating.
The one hundred year old charismatic whacko-crowd has more crud on their heads than any of the reformed crowd. Should I list your people: Benny Hinn? Kenneth Copeland? Todd Bentley? Jim and Tammy Fay? Kenneth Copeland? The Name it and Claim it movement? The many healers with shills out front and earpieces in to ‘aid’ them in false prophecies to make cash? Believers in Christ thinking that the majestic God of the Universe wants his people to bark like dogs and gyrate sexually on the ground in a trance-like state a la Pensacola and Toronto?
…ok, do you see my point? Did your dander rise a bit? Did you sense condemnation? Some of you, my beloved brothers and sisters, are heaping condemnation on the slant of biblical faith that many of us reformed crowd take. (If you need verses, I can certainly provide them, but since you do not use any yourself, I did not think it was necessary.)
Yet you probably notice that we don’t return the favor. Please don’t read this as a sign that none of us grit our teeth at your scorn and condemnation or think that you are wrong, or that we do not read or study the Word.
In my case, I do not return insult for insult because of two reasons:
1. I hold our tongues and love you, there is freedom in Christ, and it does not matter how you came to love and serve the Savior–you came, I came. We love and pray and give to one another, whether reformed, evangelical, orthodox or charismatic. Do we send back the prayers of a brother who does not worship like we do? Do we mail back gifts given by those who have found freedom and grace in a worship tradition different than ours?
2. it serves absolutely no purpose here, only proves to divide, since SGM is neither reformed nor Charismatic, it is a mute point. SGM is the problem. Calvin or Wimber, Piper or Robertson are not the subjects of this blog.
You mention reformation/Calvinism, but seem to have no true understanding of those theologies.
How does this specifically help the healing and provide the refuge needed for those leaving or struggling with SGM?
So, as just one small voice here, could I appeal to you to not use such condemning words towards others of us here, especially with no proof-texts from Scripture, in posts?
Perhaps it might be fun to open a post and engage in a pure and polite debate on Calvinism (or as those of us on this side of the aisle would call it: a correct understanding of the Bible, God and salvation) vs. Charismatic theology (or as those of us on that side of the aisle would call it: a correct understanding of the Bible, God and salvation).
I’m just saying, is all.
It is amazing how we can all come together here when it comes to praising Jesus and lifting up his name, but when speaking of doctrinal differences, that unity dissolves so quickly.
There won’t be any talk of doctrinal differences in heaven.
Only worship of our one, true amazing Creator.
Thank God.
RT-
I hear ya. I don’t hold to the view, “if you’re not polite, I won’t listen to you”, as I think it’s childish, but I would encourage our guests to follow the golden rule.
If I could encourage all of our commenters in any way, I would remind everyone that their host is not TR, but believes in TULIP, is complementarian, pro homeschooling, anti teen dating, and a very, very conservative charismatic.
I would think the majority of our guests have been given the freedom to express their views which are contrary to mine, knowing that they won’t be attacked or censored. I respect their right to believe what they like (within the bounds of orthodoxy), and would ask that everyone please do the same.
RT, my point was about the lack of voice of the congregation in Chesapeake — many of whom may have wanted a more charismatic flavor when things began turning toward predestination, progressive sanctification, indwelling sin, and sovereignty of God doctrines. The shift took us off guard and the leaning too far toward rooting out sin and accountability groups caused more harm than good in many cases. Not to say these things are always wrong or unnecessary, but they were taken to extremes and at a church where grace was preached, not much was extended. I am not a Reformed theologian, but I see one way to solve the problem is to address the polity issue that leaves the congregants with no voice. The churches in question seem to more closely resemble Gothard than Presbyterianism to me. Even so, if I offended you, I apologize! Hugely!
I thought Esther’s recent long post was a very good summary of the disfunction at SGChes. I emailed it to one of the pastors there who was directly and largely responsible for much, if not most, of the abuses that took place there. I doubt he’ll give it the time of day, and I know he won’t answer my email. He never has and probably never will. He’s part and parcel of that SG system – he’s in deep – and I don’t think he will ever “escape”. He loves the SG system, he makes his living at it, and I think he believes everything and anything it produces, without question. I think if they told him to do something really crazy for the “sake” of the gospel, he would do it, without question or hesitation. That’s how deep he’s in. In my book, he’s a dangerous “church person”, for lack of a better term. My take on him is that he’s very proud, very closed minded, and an arrogrant son of a gun. I certainly don’t consider him to be qualified for his job by any stretch of the imagination. I tried talking to him for years over many issues, but to no avail. It was like talking to a brick wall. You speak something reasonable, and all you receive is silence and disdain, or insult mixed with injury. I once even invited him to agree to disagree, extended my hand in friendship, and he wouldn’t even shake my hand. He just opened the door of his office, told me to leave, and wouldn’t even look me in the eye. I think some of the times he was just barely in control of himself. It wouldn’t surprise me if one day he blew his top. I think this may explain why he won’t engage on any level. It’s probably a defense mechanism. Many of you know him I’m sure.
Hope- welcome!!
Your innaugural post might even be considered ‘biblical fellowship’ !!!
I agree with Jim. you sure know how to make an entrance.
Thank you for really and truly listening, hearing and understanding your brothers and sisters here. For the glory of God and God alone!
ps- I loved your point about horn-tooting!
Freedom Fighter,
When I recently met with a SGC pastor who wanted to hear my concerns, one point I made was about clear communication to the membership regarding changes in doctrine or practice. Of course, while I’m strongly in favor of input from the entire SGM membership before such changes are made, I think that they have room for improvement under their current system. From my notes:
Examples would be changes in Our Journey Together regarding the definition of pastoral authority and the appeal process, both found in Foundations for the Christian Life. The change in the Statement of Faith regarding Third Wave would be another example. A member who joined a Sovereign Grace church in 2000 signed a membership agreement based on his current understanding of Sovereign Grace beliefs and practices. It would seem unreasonable to expect Sovereign Grace members to continually read the Statement of Faith and membership class material to discover changes and then examine his conscience to determine of he is in agreement with such changes.
I know that major changes would have to happen in SGM before congregational input is sought. But it was totally unfair to the good people of Chesapeake to not inform them about the inclusion of Third Wave (the lack of a second experience in regards to the baptism in the Holy Spirit).
While I’m in favor of inclusion of both views, I know from my time in the Assemblies of God that this could be a hill to die on issue for some. It is just wrong to change your statement of faith without informing those who have agreed to support that statement.
Well … substance and shallowness become self evident over time.
As for intentions … See here is the thing… no matter how lofty the aim or how many scriptures one drapes around their motives in a quest for nobility by association, intentions are not get out of tyranny free cards.
You have learned your lessons well at CLC. If all else fails and no response to criticism exists imply noble martyrdom: “I’m so sorry. Lowly, self deprecating me is aspiring to the highest ethical and moral standard. A futile effort: I know I fall so very short. But we are all just sinners… wretched wretched sinners.”
This deeply rooted moral relativism makes intentions irrelevant because there is no action you can take that is yours. So what you reflect viz. the glory of God, is not yours to lay claim: your action or the Glory. Your desire is immaterial to the outcome.
This is at the core of the fraud CLC/SGM leaders perpetrate. They want the credit for their good, for their “fruit” to validate their authority (and thereby their doctrine) but they want absolved of failure because the standard is so high, so noble, so implicitly unattainable.
The reality is the greatest tyrannies on the planet are driven by the best intentions.
Hey, FF–not offended, just weary, your words are balm.
You know, as PK and Jim and others often remind us, the source of the tension inside SGM regarding these theological conundrums is that you had a charismatic church which set up a episcopal polity (all seeing all know pope). The pope then went through some half-birth of his own into a hybrid half-born calvinism, minus its grace and freedom, which he inflicted on his people, who were powerless to pull the barge back to the original course.
In any solid church, charismatic or reformed, there would be no way to do this: the elders would refuse, correct and dismiss any man who came in and decided to completely change the church’s theology.
How absurd.
You get on at Charismaticland, on the way up the Healing River to the land of Joyful Giftings.
Halfway along, you notice your boat has made a detour up Dry Doctrine River (a nod to you, Steve et al), and headed straight at TULIP Village, from which wafts three hundred year old Puritan prayers.
But the Captain is locked inside his cabin and pays little attention to all his passengers, who are pounding on the door, demanding to get back on course.
So, to please them and to please ____?_____ (himself? I dunno this one) he drops anchor right at the mouth of Dry Doctrine River (ah, you have no idea what is costs me to type that, LOL), and there he sits, in neither strongly flowing river, locked in his cabin while his passengers jump ship and he convinces many travelers up DDR that he really IS on the way up DDR, and that his boat is the best one on the river, after all–look at the great entertainment.
Until SGM allows elders to be elected by , and allowed to FEELY govern, their churches, and to CALL THEIR OWN PASTORS, the boat will sit in the mud, and more and more people will jump off.
However, given the level of entertainment, and the attractiveness of the ship and crew, more people will also jump on it, leaving the regularly running DDR ships that sail up to TULIP.
CALL FOR CHANGE, PEOPLE OF SGM!! You are wonderful believers, you have many good pastors, many good brothers and sisters, demand change and freedom.
Call for a renewed focus on real missions, on transparency, on accountability in the financial realm….
Hi 30, you said, “I have already explained how CLC hears those who are hurting. I have personally witnessed resolution, reconcilliation, and much healing among the members here at CLC.”
I’m glad you’ve seen that, really, but that’s not the point. The point is that there are many things that you and I are not seeing that no one’s gonna tell us at our SG church. And it’s not just about CLC, I could share many wonderful examples of God’s work in my rather healthy SGC, but this is not the forum for me to do so. That would be equivalent to an attempt to invalidate or diminish the seriousness of the issues being raised. Nobody is out to prove that SG is ALL bad, so you and I don’t need to try to provide evidence to prove it’s greatness. You can go to http://www.sovereigngraceministries.com at any time and read about all the wonderful stuff going on within the fam., but you won’t find these peoples stories there. They haven’t been invited to that party. This blog is their place to speak.
“I have never claimed we are perfect, or superior, or anything like that.”
Didn’t say that you did. The “superiority” is a part of the cultural thought. I haven’t “claimed” it either, but I am a part of the culture that has made the deliberate choice to set itself apart from the rest of the body of Christ and the community. This seems to be a common denominator for SG churches. Why do you think that is 30? How does my SG church relate to the community we’re in? (uh, we don’t) How do we serve the community where I live, as a church? (uh, we don’t) How do we interact with the rest of the body of Christ as a church? (uh….we don’t.) We isolate ourselves, because we believe we do it better. We don’t need to GO out, let them come to us, right? That’s the ministry strategy, ’cause we do the gospel best… best conferences, best books, best theology. It’s all right here, step right up! No one is preaching that message, but no one is preaching against it either, If they are, send me the sermon, I’d love to hear it.
“I am not trying to “toot the horn” of SGM. But the good work God is doing on a daily basis among hundreds of Christians who are members of SGM is ignored here.”
Most of these folk were DOING or are doing “the good work of God” in SGM on a daily basis, they know about it well. They were doing it when their worlds came crashing in on them. You’re preaching to the choir, as though they never sang in it. They were just like you and I.
**************************************************************************************
Thanks all for the kind welcome!
~Sorry for the grand entrance, think things were “pent-up” a bit, from many months of reading but being too chicken to post.~
Hope, thank you for seeing clearly! I add my welcome!
Defended, are you Defender’s wife? What a wonderful pair of names!!
Hope…
Thanks for posting…your words are so accurate and your tone is very much appreciated.
30years –
for the one family that did receive an apology, there are other pastors still insulated and protected who have caused damage and destruction and have made a lifetime of blame-shifting. And they get paid saying things like “your sin is my job security” and “I can’t believe I get paid to do this.”
We say…..we can’t either.
cardinal-
THAT was funny.
Also sad but true…
Hope,
I want to add my welcome to the chorus of welcomes here. No seat belts required. :)
The points you have so beautifully articulated above communicate what’s been percolating in my heart/mind/soul for awhile, but I lack the amazing gift of expression you have. THANK YOU and bless you for saying what many of us still in SGM are feeling, and praying about.
P.D.
protestantdame at gmail-dot-com
Hey 30 -
Did you get tired of the survivors site?
Personally I think McDonald’s food is the best food on the planet.
I am told that I am in excellent health for my years, so no ill effects.
It grieves me that others do not agree, my experience has been sooo amazing
with McD’s.
The dissenters and critics must be wrong…I know they have addressed all the FDA concerns, as they grow with wisdom.
Well…
Off to get a Double shot frappachino light with raspberry and whipped cream.
Mmmm. Yeah, there is coffee in there…..somewhere.
Just a thought
P.S. How’s Grant?
John, what you’ve said about the depravity fence and moral relativism has been very helpful to me. What a great word picture. I can’t tell you the times I’ve felt placed on the wrong side of that fence–with grace on the one side and me on the other side!
RT,
I’ve not been in a SGM church and I am Reformed in my understanding of salvation. My authoritarian/abusive church experience took place within a Reformed church. In the aftermath I found this blog and I have been greatly ministered to by those here. I’m also complementarian and there are those here who disagree with that. If anyone asked directly what I thought, I would do my best to articulate what I believe. I come here to share in the bearing of each other’s burdens, to hear of the grace and love of Jesus Christ and to be reinforced in those realities by the tender mercies of those commenting here.
In one of Jim’s random quotes, he says,
“Reading the stories of others hurt by their SGM experience brought great healing to Carole and I.
I am not alone, and I am not crazy.”
Recognizing and dealing with the aftermath of a wretched church experience is so hard. I’ve needed to know that I was not alone and not crazy. Even reading books and knowing with my mind that we did recognize the truth of the situation is just the beginning to dealing with the emotional fallout. It’s been hard to find people face to face who understand what we’re talking about when they haven’t been through it and some of the other websites I’ve seen were not the best fit for me. There is a mix here of the reality of a wide range of emotions and a looking to Jesus that eases my heart. There is a striking similarity to all of these situations, regardless of the church in which they occurred. Remarks about Calvinism don’t particularly bother me because I’ve known enough hard-nosed and heavy-handed Calvinists (in several churches, not just the last one) to realize how people are affected.
Hope, Esther, John, Jim (the conservative charismatic – totally understand that one), Millertime – great ideas shared today.
But RT, you take the cake! “You get on at Charismaticland, on the way up the Healing River to the land of Joyful Giftings.
Halfway along, you notice your boat has made a detour up Dry Doctrine River (a nod to you, Steve et al), and headed straight at TULIP Village, from which wafts three hundred year old Puritan prayers.
But the Captain is locked inside his cabin and pays little attention to all his passengers, who are pounding on the door, demanding to get back on course.”
This is going to be a classic! I think, Jim, this needs to be in that quote thing you’ve got going.
Hope, welcome and thank you for your eloquent posts.
RT, I love your description of the CLC boat stuck in Dry Doctrine River–you hit it just right. A friend at work asked me how on earth I got stuck in a church that is so patriarchal (sorry, Jim)–I told him it was a different kind of church when I signed on as a young adult, then it kept morphing around me.
30 years, if you take the time to read my admittedly long response to your post, you’ll notice that I did say some nice things about CLC, but I also pointed out some serious issues.
Just got home! Wow! What a productive day on the blog! Hope, welcome, welcome, welcome (arms opened wide to give you a big hug!) You really get it.
Thanks so much for well written posts that explain so well what many are seeing and have lived out in former SGM churches.
Thanks to everyone for great communication and telling it like it is! Millertime, glad that you sent Sylvia’s excellent post to the “pastor”. Hope it softens his heart, allowing compassion and love to come in. I too worry that he may blow his top so to speak. I pray for him regularly.
Jim and Carole, may you be encouraged for you are truly instruments in the hands of the Redeemer!
I was thinking about the polity situation, and how frustrated, probably enraged, I would be if my beloved PCA church ditched the reformed doctrines of grace that have rescued me from the legalism and bondage under which I used to live.
But if my own church started going south theologically, and for some reason the elders let it happen, I would unhappily pull up roots and trudge across town to one of the other ones, since they would probably still be right on. Because at the top there is health, and each church has the natural appelation process that a congregationally elected session (council/board) provides.
But poor SGM, you have no appeal, no one holding your pastors accountable AS A RESULT OF BEING ELECTED TO DO SO BY YOU!
Defenders of SGM often say that there is accountabillity at the top, but can never say by whom.
YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO! You must demand this!!! Continue to ask CJ and his guys why they do not allow a church to call their own pastor. Why they cannot elect their own elders. Why they don’t ever HAVE elders???
God bless you all, don’t you suspect there is shaking in the world of the church tonight?
acme-I’m anti patriarchal as well.
Hope said….
“You can go to http://www.sovereigngraceministries.com at any time and read about all the wonderful stuff going on within the fam., but you won’t find these peoples stories there. They haven’t been invited to that party. This blog is their place to speak.”
Boy that is positively brilliant! Stating the obvious…….just brilliant.
INC- yes, Defender is my precious husband, Main Squeeze…and my Defender when I was attacked for (imaginary) sin! He took the time to write it out and send it to Kris at Survivors.
RT,
you said: “the reformed doctrines of grace that have rescued me from the legalism and bondage under which I used to live.”
I must add that these same doctrines that brought life and freedom to you, bring death and bondage to others. I am one of those, and polity was never the real issue in SGM in my estimation. It was always the body of ideas (which they dubbed as doctrine) that drove everything. I was a Calvinist before joining SGM. And yes, I am fully responsible for believing these doctrines.. and when I stopped asking the questions about the numerous inconsistencies gnawing at my heart and mind, I slowly became enslaved.
And, I must add, with respect to the charismatic folk you mentioned earlier – “The one hundred year old charismatic whacko-crowd has more crud on their heads than any of the reformed crowd. “
Correct me if I am wrong, but Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, or any of the others you mentioned were never accused of burning someone at the stake or killing another for disagreeing with their charismatic beliefs. But that is indeed what John Calvin did and what many other individuals who are Reformed have done all in the name of their personally defined “sound doctrine”. History is replete with such examples, none of which I heard about as a Calvinist.
Now… I’m just saying…this blog is not to be a debate about doctrine, I know….but if you don’t realize it already, vehemently defending the very doctrines that have enslaved so many coming out of SGM (by their OWN admissions) is seen by some as no different than defending SGM as a whole.
And when someone (namely the person you were addressing earlier) is angry about those same doctrines that you hold dear to YOUR heart, it might be helpful to simply realize that like any other aspect they are grieving after leaving SGM, the anger about the specific doctrines are not misplaced and should not be dismissed. The reason they are not displaced is because for them, the spiritual devastation was very real. And like any other experience in SGM, should be validated and heard on the blogs with compassion.
I think it would great to debate doctrine. RT and Juli, why don’t you have at it.
Just be nice while you’re at it
~Thanks again ladies/gents for you kind words and welcome~
2 Cor 13
11 Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you. 12 Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13 All the saints greet you.
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Hi Juli!
My point was not to debate at all, I simply don’t have the energy for it right now–can we pick up in the next weeks? I do love dialogue and know you do, too. I always enjoy your posts thoroughly.
I simply wanted to exemplify the level of hostility frequently directed at my side of the aisle and I tried to do that by throwing dookie around on charismatic guys, charismatic practices, to possibly remind all of us that we need to keep our eyes on the SGM ball, using specific examples of SGM misbehavior.
My point was a plea to not label the doctrinal slant that I, and many of us here, take as coming from the pit of hell. That is a really dangerous statement.
To take the position that God does not chose his people is your choice, (ha, a little reformed humor there), but to label that doctrine as from the pit of hell? How do you get around 1 Thes. 1, 1 Pet 2:4 (which shows both side, us coming, him chosing), Romans 8, and, especally Romans 9? We can’t just say that since Paul wrote it, it has less value.
Oh dear….there I go. It would be fun, though, Jim, Juli, Steve, et al, to have a civilized smackdown on this doctrine. If y’all want to start, I’ll jump in once my head is clear later.
I completely agree that the SGM doctrines, many of which dictate an extrabiblical holiness, are dangerous and damaging. I in no way demean or diminish the hurt and damage done in SGM, I have experienced and seen the same thing. If they are intimating that THEY somehow know who comes to God and who doesn’t, then they are Puritanical monsters.
The doctrines of the reformation allow us to preach the gospel with no fear, God is more powerful than I, my failings and my lack in evangelism do not thwart the will of a passionate wooing God, do not harm the power of the Hound of Heaven.
When I was finally discovered that salvation was found in Grace Alone, Scripture Alone, and God Alone, the chains that lay on my heart to find God, chase God, please God, fear God, in order to get him to like me enough to ‘save me,’ disintegrated, and I was free to find God, chase God, please God, fear God in freedom and joy, not in fear and worry, knowing that Abba is very fond of me, has set his affection on me, for the sake of his Son.
I suspect our biggest problem is semantics.
One day, we will all laugh as we see face to face, instead of through a glass darkly.
Colossians 3: Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Jim said, “I know that major changes would have to happen in SGM before congregational input is sought. But it was totally unfair to the good people of Chesapeake to not inform them about the inclusion of Third Wave (the lack of a second experience in regards to the baptism in the Holy Spirit).”
Just wondering: Was Chesapeake the only church within SGM that was not informed about this change? What about other churches? Were they told when this happened? I think the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was changed in 2002(?). The people in Chesapeake found out in the fall of 2008 and it was not through an announcement from the pulpit.
Fred,
The inclusion of Third Wave occurred in 2002. I would guess that it was handled differently in different churches. I’m sure that Chesapeake was not the only congregation that was not informed.
Maybe others who were around in 2002 can share how it was handled in their SGC.
Hi Everyone:
My last post was full of emotion. I didn’t mean to come across as hateful, but when one has been wounded by something you will have a reaction to it. I am not meaning that I see the wounding as being deliberate or intentional in any way. I believe that this movement desires to do well and to do what is pleasing to God. What I did mean is that the enemy Satan is the one who has caused my wounding, and was enabled to do so by choices made by others that has allowed him access. This would be true both in my marriage and in my church relationship. However, I do forgive because I know that I have also wounded others along the way in my earthly walk. I may have wounded someone by saying what I said in my last post.
My statement “from the pit of Hell” is very strong. But so was Jesus’ statement to Peter when he said, “Get behind me, Satan. You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.” Matthew 16:23 Jesus wasn’t calling Peter Satan, but obviously at times Satan is allowed access in our lives and we speak things that are not of God. That is what I meant. Some of the teaching that has been coming forth over the past years in Sovereign
Grace caused my family much pain. I believe it has misrepresented our Father in Heaven, our Savior Jesus Christ, and the “Helper” “Holy Spirit.” I also wish we had been given the opportunity to know the changes that were coming down from the top of this ministry so that we could have the opportunity to decide if we agree or not with what they were changing to. Instead, it was done so subtly that many of us
were shaking our heads over time because we weren’t certain as to what was going on. Was this really happening? Did they really mean what they were saying behind the pulpit? I tried so hard to continue to walk as a part of this movement. I made excuses to my children for things that they struggled over. “Out of the mouths of babes” – what a saying. My children had more discernment than me. They knew
something was wrong.
I am not on the blog to push my own theology on anyone. I have always hated labels. I do not call myself a Calvinist, or a Reformed anything, nor an Armenean, or even a follower of Apollos. I am not even certain I am spelling the names right. In fact, when the word “Calvinist” was starting to appear in the church, I didn’t have a clue as to what people were talking about. I love Jesus. I follow Him. I love the Father, I follow Him. I love the Holy Spirit, I follow Him. I do not understand everything in God’s Word, but I believe the most important issues are clear, and that is what I think we can all agree on. My desire is, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” Labels seem to divide the “Body of Christ.” I believe our differences are affected by our experiences with Jesus. The longer I walk with Jesus, the more I am learning about Him. The more I walk with “Abba Father” the more I am learning about Him. The more I walk with the “Holy Spirit” the more I am learning about Him. The disciples are good examples of ourselves. They walked day in and day out, month after month with Jesus being taught from His very mouth and yet they misunderstood so much about Him. Their conclusions were often wrong. Jesus understands that about us. I think the real danger is when we get into extremes. What we believe must line up with truth, “The entire Word of God” not just one part or piece of it.
Who is the “Church?” Does it not consist of all who believe in Jesus Christ and who are known by Him, or it is limited to one movement? Should we desire to be separated from the rest of His Body, the Body of Christ?
“Now concerning food offered to idols (you can put most any issue here
that causes conflict). We know that “all of us possess knowledge. This
“knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he
knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if
anyone loves God, he is known by God.” Is it not a relationship?
John 15:26 “But when the “Helper” (Holy Spirit) comes, whom I will
send to you from the Father, the Spirit of “truth”, who proceeds from
the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear
witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.”
John 15:7-11 “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage
that I go away, for if I do not go away, the “Helper” will not come to
you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will
convict the world concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will
see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this
world is judged.
John 15:13 “When the Spirit of “truth” comes, He will guide you into
all the ”truth”, for he will not speak on His own authority, but what-
ever He hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that
are to come. He will glorify me, for He will take what is mine and
declare it to you. All the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He
will take what is mine and declare it to you.”
Acts 1:4 “…you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you
will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Acts 1:7 “…It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father
has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the
Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in
Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
We still need the”Helper” the “Holy Spirit” to guide us into all “truth.”
May we not divorce Him.
Love, Esther (Sylvia)
Jim wrote:
I think it would great to debate doctrine. RT and Juli, why don’t you have at it.
Just be nice while you’re at it
Me: Jim, you should set up a blog post for people to have a HEALTHY doctrine debate! Discussion is good for the soul and those things should be discussed!!!
Well… Jim made this a girl fight… so I was gonna set up chairs around the jell-o pit and sell tickets …
some moral equivalency and historical non-sequiturs were offered up that I was gonna let slide but hey, I can get my spanky pants and very thin t-shirt and swan dive into the mix.
I know Esther, and she is very grounded, sensible, kind, doctrinally sound, and loves the Lord deeply. She is on the right track, which she is largely responsible for, virtually by herself, in spite of all the abuse she has endured under the hands of some very incompetent pastors at SGChes, notwithstanding her other challenges as well. She was very, very deeply wounded, and tortured, by some extremely ignorant, controlling, poorly-trained, uncaring, and incompetent pastors at SGChes. It’s amazing to me that she is able to be so kind and humble to those who hurt her. I could not do that to her degree. She’s real people, she has no hidden agendas, she writes and speaks truthfully from her heart, and she has gained Job’s perseverance in suffering that many of us have not even approached in our lifetimes. And she knows about the Devil’s wiles, probably more so than many of us combined. So be careful about the conclusions you draw from her writing before understanding her history and context. Be nice to her, please. This whole blog is healing for all of us. Let’s not let minor doctrinal differences divide us, unlike the way some SG churces have done for so long. Remember we’re coming OUT of that – so let us major in the majors, and minor in the minors.
Yes, Sylvia is a precious, precious woman who loves the Lord with all her heart. You know how the Bible says, “He is near the brokenhearted?” He is close beside Sylvia, whispering insights to her in her suffering. I am so grateful for her willing heart and for all she adds to the conversation. And Sylvia, I have been praying for your boys to trust the Lord and His people again and for your whole family to be healed.
I was thinking about the whole Reformed vs. Arminian type debate and I think it boils down to one single issue. Is God truly omniscient and all-powerful or does He leave us to make certain decisions for ourselves? Calvinists cannot conceive of a God who would willingly lay down His rights to decide all, thereby giving up power over us — does He NOT have the whole world in His hands? Charismatics shudder to think He plays favorites and pulls strings by deciding who will be saved and who will not. But our God is higher than us. His ways are so much higher that we cannot fathom them. Remember, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived of the great things He has planned. I think that’s why we can’t conclusively answer the question. It may be that we are predestined to salvation and at the same time His will is that none will perish but all will come to salvation. Our brains are tiny compared to our God. And the Bible says both are true. Perhaps in a way we can’t understand till we see Him face to face? And then it won’t matter.
I take the blame for the latest little controversy here. I admire and respect Esther so much that when her comment got stuck in moderation, I cleared it without reading it.
Had I read it, I would have sent an email, asking if the “pit of hell” terminology could be removed.
By the time RT had posted, I still hadn’t read Esther’s post, and thought that RT was responding to a different comment.
I agree with millertime’s comment above.
Carole and I have great affection for both Esther and RT, and I did not handle this situation well at all.
My apologies to everyone.
millertime
you say……….”This whole blog is healing for all of us. Let’s not let minor doctrinal differences divide us, unlike the way some SG churches have done for so long. Remember we’re coming OUT of that – so let us major in the majors, and minor in the minors.”
Quizzler says………”I salute your support for the downtrodden and for your encouragement of us all.”
N.S.L.B.
RT,
I realize your intent was not to debate doctrine, you explained your reasons for commenting were to address the level of hostility that you felt were directed at your side of the aisle.
My comment, as well, was also obviously not a call to debate doctrine. Yet I do find an interesting opporunity presenting here that has yet to be explored on this blog, or Survivors for that matter.
The claim was made that Calvinism is a doctrine from the pit of hell. I’m not so concerned with debating whether that is true or not. I am, however, interested in why someone who has been hurt by SGM feels this way. We have discussed polity ad nauseam, simply because many believe polity is a contributing factor to the overall abuse in SGM. That is a good approach: to work through possible causes of the abuse we see. However, after numerous posts discussing polity, I don’t recall too many people coming forward and saying “Aha! That’s it! Polity is what enslaved me!”
Some may believe polity is THE contributing factor. But even polity is rooted in deeper doctrinal assumptions. So we must dig deeper to find those assumptions, at the same time examining the fruit produced by said assumptions.
Many have testified and shared stories the past 18 months about how the teachings on total depravity have enslaved them, robbed them of their joy, led to legalism, led to idolatry, resulted in depression, and ultimately produced spiritual and emotional death in them. This, in my opinion, is worth exploring. And, we have yet to discuss this, as I have said.
The question that needs to be asked is this: Why do many who have left SGM feel the doctrine of total depravity contributes to spiritual abuse and bondage in their lives?
As a reformed teacher, I would suspect you (and all other Calvinists who read here) would be gravely interested in hearing how the same doctrines you hold dear and benefit from personally, could produce such death in others. Yet the issue here is not to defend your own beliefs, or Calvinism, but to explore the interpretation of Calvins’ writings, the subsequent application of said teachings into SGM and how they may or may not have contributed to the overall abuses we see today in SGM.
As I said before, I don’t see the defense or explanation of Calvinism any differently than Barbaric Yawp, 30yrs or Paul Balluf defending SGM as a family of churches – when the person you are talking to has told you that teachings on total depravity put them in bondage, make no mistake – that is a direct connection to Calvin’s teachings.
To discuss Calvinism outside the context of the fruit it produces is futile. That is a doctrinal discussion that is ultimately ineffective because it fails to address a critical component of productive analysis – that of extrapolating ideas to their logical conclusions. The logical conclusions are most clearly seen when we see the outworkings of any ideas when applied/believed/adhered to to their fullest and logical extent.
If 500 people came to you and were complaining of very specific symptoms, as a physician, would you not begin working to trace those symptoms back to a common cause in order to cure them? There is an epidemiology of doctrine that needs to occur here – what is the primary source of SGM’s problems? We’ve had many people now present with the symptoms of
“Too much focus on sin”
“Not enough focus on victory in Christ or teachings on faith”
“I had no joy because I was always feeling condemned”
“Always talking about how wicked and depraved I was”
All of these symptoms are rooted in the teaching of total depravity – which, is of course the foundational premise of Calvin’s thesis.
A doctor evaluates all of the symptoms presented, not just selective symptoms – since any given symptom could indicate a variety of causes. To overlook one key symptom that has been presented time and again by former SGM members, and then to overlook the logical cause of this symptom (total depravity) is short sighted.
I think the time to explore the issue of total depravity and its influence on the lives of SGM members is long overdue. I do, however, see the potential for many to get ruffled in the same way the SGM members who post here get ruffled. And that is why I point out that if we are going to help people work through the causes of their over all symptoms (one of which is clearly Calvin’s teaching on total depravity), we cannot become like the SGM commenters who focus on a defense of their beliefs to the exclusion of their brethren who have been hurt.
I used to get all worked up about reformed doctrine and doctrinal differences earlier in my SG days, and read so many of the books in the SG bookstore, etc., but these days I’m more of a pantheist - in other words – I believe that it will all “pan out” in the end for true Christians of all varieties – a dry joke, I know, but seriously, when you think about it, if you know and love Jesus, what the heck difference do the minor doctrines really matter ? I had a conversation once with Brett Campbell at SGChes many years back, and asked him what difference did it make if two Christians who loved the Lord, and one was a hyper Calvanist (like him), and another was not. He said it made, and I quote, “all the difference in the world”. So I asked him to explain how it made a difference, and he had nothing to say. In other words, he believed it, but he couldn’t explain to me why it made a hill of beans. Total silence. Now to this day I don’t know if it really makes a difference or not, though I tend to think it doesn’t when I see the fruit of so many Christians who are not Calvinists, but nevertheless, that particular conversation was a pivitol moment for me personally, in that I no longer wanted to let minor doctrinal differences divide, as I had seen this pastor and some of his peers do so, even to the point of actively using it as a tool to divide the sheep. After that I made increasing efforts to “meet people where they’re at”, because in the end, I’m a pretty needy individual myself, regardless of any doctrinal positions I may or may not have. And that’s a big problem at SG churches – doctrinal “pride”, so to speak, which prevents pastors from helping people where they’re at at that moment. When you major in the minors, you can become severely handicapped in your ability to grow in Christ and actually care for people, and meet them where they’re at. I think Jesus met people exactly where they were at, and didn’t make them “doctrinally qualify” before they were loved. No, I haven’t certainly “arrived” by any stretch, but I do know in my own heart this to be true. When you observe the consistent good fruit of serious Christians, I think you will find this position to be almost universally true, if not completely so.
Inc posted:
I come here to share in the bearing of each other’s burdens, to hear of the grace and love of Jesus Christ and to be reinforced in those realities by the tender mercies of those commenting here.
That was very beautifully said!
Millertime,
Standing ovation on your latest post. When we are all one with the Lord in heaven, we will have no particular sect to join, we will know everything there is to know, and doctrine will mean nothing. Only love will survive.
Juli,
I don’t think Total Depravity is the issue, as total depravity is total inability- John 6:65.
I think indwelling sin would be the issue. A common argument would be over the context of Paul’s statements in Romans 7. Is he referring to the current state of the believer, or to his former life?
As one who believes that Paul is referring to the current state of the believer, I think I’ve discussed ad nauseam the fact that some SGM pastors have used indwelling sin as a weapon, and that it seems that SGM would generally focus on this aspect of the nature of man above our identity in Christ. Paul’s message was quite different.
I think we should be careful not to confuse the message with the messenger.
Indwelling sin has been misused by some within SGM. I see it in Scripture.
Augustine coined the phrase “Original Sin”. I see it in Scripture.
Calvin’s followers used the TULIP acronim. I see TULIP in Scripture.
Many men of all stripes have misused truth. Their abusive use of truth does not nullify truth.
Bravo Millertime!!! Thank you for bringing everyone reading and posting back to the truth. We are all the body of Christ and let us love one another and walk in unity. Satan wants nothing more than to divide the Body – even on this blog.
Thanks to everyone on this blog for loving one an other and for putting doctrinal differences aside for Kingdom of God.
I agree, Fred, good post.
Greetings, y’all.
I am running by quickly to say that I appreciate all the comments here, and won’t be able to speak to them until later…but am reading and enjoying.
How can one deny that we are desperately wicked and unable to acheive our own salvation with the salvation offered through Christ? The only alternative is that we are born good and able to please God through our behavior. If you can prove this to me, that we are not born with original sin, (get scissors to cut out Psalm 51 and keep cutting from there…), I will have to abandon the faith, since I know that my heart was set against God before I gave my life to him.
For this is the message of the T in TULIP. You have been misled by SGM is you are told that the focus of reformed thought is current indwelling sin. Good heavens, may it never be. The focus of the truly reformed is the wondrous God we love.
Do we stand before a shimmering mystery? He calls, I choose, intricately linked.
If you claim that God cannot irresistably call someone to himself, why would you waste a moment praying for him or her? Start arguing with them immediately, since their salvation depends on your winsome winning of their hearts and minds.
If God is able to call people to himself, (which you inately know, since you pray for the help of the Holy Spirit to change hearts), and he desires that every single person in the world wants to come to him, and does not call every single one of them, he is impotent, capricious and possibly evil.
If his desire is that every single one come, and he has the power to see all his holy will done, and his will is thwarted by man, he is impotent.
Later, I’ll keep reading…
Thank you, 30 years….
I want to add that I believe that part of loving one another is speaking truth when we see deception, lies, dangerous doctrine, abuse, etc.
“For you were once darkness, but now your are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead,And Christ will give you light.” Ephesians5:8-14
The best Christian minds in history have been debating these issues for Centuries. I don’t think it’ll be solved here, and I doubt it will be solved anywhere else, or at any time in the future for that matter. When the Bible seems to contradict itself, unless you can *** completely *** reconcile the opposing viewpoints, my personal approach is to avoid insisting that I’ve got the real truth about it. I personally like RC Sproul’s approach - that is, if something in the Bible seems to contradict itself, instead of saying, well, I must believe both statements because the Bible says so, even though those two statements are contradictory, he says balogna, it’s the wrong approach, because he believes that God would not say anything against his own word, as I’m sure we all do. That is why I think it’s especially important NOT to take a side, if you can help yourself, because by committing to one side of an argument while discounting the other argurment that’s IN the Bible, you may be saying your *** preference *** is the final word on a matter of doctrine. For me, I like to think that I try to avoid using my preferences in Bible interpretation as absolute doctrinal truth when the Bible seems to speak out of both sides of its mouth. If you believe in 100% accuracy in the Bible (regardless of problems with translation or any other technical/sociological/historical/etc issues), they you may be fooling yourself if you fall hard Calvinism or hard Arminianism. For me, I say I don’t really know, even though I’m not happy that the Bible seems to teach both, and that they seem to contradict one another. But the Bible we have is the one we have, and so to make the best of it, I like to avoid either side, although I do have my *** preference ***. So, I choose not to let my *** preference *** on this matter DIVIDE people I know are on their way to heaven ! Because like I said, I’m not so sure it really matters all that much. Like the goofy pastor I referred to previously, he nor anyone else has ever been able to explain to me why it matters a either little hill or a big hill of beans. Like physicists who argure about the creation of the Universe (duh), we argue about these things too. Aren’t you glad you’re not a SG Pastor or one of their pets ??? If you were, you’d not be allowed to make a statement of faith like that – you’d be summarily disciplined or dismissed for not towing the SGM line !!! In that vein, I feel sorry for SG Pastors, because they’re not really allowed to believe anything but the corporate line for the most part, but on the other hand, I don’t really feel sorry for them because they signed up for it. But darned if you’re a SG pastor and ever want to change your mind on a doctrinal matter ! You’ve got to keep it under wraps, or sacrifice your career with SGM. That’s gotta hurt. But I guess one needs to think about that before signing up to be a SG pastor.
RT, you seem to have a strong grasp of the matter when you say we are desperately wicked and unable to achieve our own salvation. I totally agree. I really don’t think we’re all that far from one another, us Charismatics (the non-crazy kind) and Calvinists (the non-legalistic kind). Where it gets fuzzy for me is when you said that the ONLY alternative is that we are born good and able to please God through our behavior. I think there is another alternative. We can’t achieve salvation ourselves, true, but the only fair alternative to me appears to be the idea that we can choose NOT to accept it when it is proffered by God’s gracious Hand. That’s where the difference in doctrinal stance comes in. From my limited knowledge of Calvinism, I believe it is said that should someone not choose salvation, it is because salvation was not ordained or predestined for them. That would mean God has chosen for them to be damned. There is scripture to support this, but it runs contrary to the overarching theme of redemption in the Bible. If God is love and God is just, how could He punish those who cannot help but turn down salvation when it is offered because God Himself did not ordain for him to be saved? That is not just, and God IS just. Here is where a careful wrestling with scripture leaves us with disjointed hips like Jacob and covered in blistered sores like Job. It simply doesn’t make sense! We have to trust God because we don’t have the full picture.
I don’t think it makes God impotent that He has chosen to offer us a choice to choose or not choose Him after all the wooing and even the rocks crying out. Otherwise, He would never know that we love Him for Who He is and not because He has “made” us love Him. When you said, “He calls, I choose, intricately linked” that was so close to what I believe to be true. We can’t know the actual mechanics of His irresistible love. We know He calls even the terrorist, the rapist, the brutal dictator, and the murderer over and over again but to no apparent avail — because He is good and He loves freely. Why they don’t respond to His irresistible love is not something I am comfortable judging.
What do we do with the story of the warring angel who took three weeks of battle before he was able to get to Daniel with an answer to his prayers? Or of Satan’s temptation of Adam and Eve in the garden? Why do some demons only depart after prayer AND fasting? Though God is all-powerful, He has still chosen to operate within a system that includes a temptor/liar/thief. We may never know why — perhaps to train our hands to battle — but it seems unfair to believe He willingly leaves certain people to die in their sin and allows others to be victorious for reasons unknown. I think that’s where the harm in predestination comes from. We who have been hurt by the abuse of such doctrines as indwelling sin and the depravity of man have a tough time not associating it all with Calvin and Reformed doctrine. Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (I know — that was Jonathan Edwards, a puritan) depicts God as holding us by a spidery thin thread over a fiery pit. I know that is supposed to make me grateful, but instead it makes me rather frightened. I’m not feelin’ the love, Jonny E!
I also believe God is grieved when we make bad choices and is near the brokenhearted, binding up their wounds. So there WILL be wounds, large and small, and trials and tribulations to polish our faith and some come for no reason at all but due to the sin of others and their hardness of heart. Some people will have weak knees, and others will be needed to hold them up. That’s why we are a body, fitly joined, with Jesus at the head. Sometimes I feel like a toenail and other times like a jewel in His crown depending on my faulty emotions. It’s a real roller coaster ride, this journey of faith!
I am still reading and studying and working it all out, but those are my initial thoughts. I, too, think a better idea is to chuck it all and just love everyone with abandon despite whatever doctrinal differences we each may have (with certain nonnegotiables, of course). I just wrote this out to sort of clear my head…
I found this link helpful, and I agree with it, that one should consider being careful about falling hard on one side or the other:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Ca.....anism.html
Unfortunately, this is about as complicated as my feeble mind can handle. I’ve read chapters upon chapters on this subject, argued both sides with care group brothers and sisters when younger, and read a whole book on the topic, and still my head spins. I believe It’s a conundrum, at best.
BUT, both Arminians and Calvinists are going to heaven. I’m so sorry to break this news. Perhaps we could debate it there, but don’t let me stop you !
I like Freedom Fighter’s comments:
“…Some people will have weak knees, and others will be needed to hold them up. That’s why we are a body, fitly joined, with Jesus at the head…”
“…I, too, think a better idea is to chuck it all and just love everyone with abandon despite whatever doctrinal differences we each may have ….”
You know, she has a point, so let’s take it one step further: IF you’re right about Calvinism, or IF your’re right on ALL the -isms-, will your name be on the roster ? Where in the Bible does it say an infalliable knowledge of Scripture is the key to Heaven ?
You go girl.
Hi all….
I must admit that I am a bit confused as to the importance of the rivalry between the Calvin/Armenian “philosophies”. I came to the Lord being taught and BELIEVING that our primary purpose in this life is to pray daily that my life Glorifies HIM. I thought/think it is more important to have that intimate fellowship with HIM; making that goal the “prize” I keep my eye on. I thought/believe that as Romans 8:1-2 tells me that there is NOW at this very minute no condemnation being in Christ Jesus. If I sin, at that moment of repentance, NOW there is no condemnation. No looking back, as HE is the one who forgives, giving man no room to keep score(it is forgotten in sea of forgetfulness).
I long for the heart of David; to have that intimate relationship and pray that I will draw others to HIM. What does it matter who searches who out; whether called or we choose? Isn’t the ultimate end result we should be working to is living a life where we are sitting in HIS lap, with HIS arms around us, being able to face all the turmoil and pain the world throws at us.
Whether reformed or not…any “church” who does not lead its people to the knowledge and experience of “resting in HIM” and allowing themselves the joy of not only loving but being loved by HIM, is to me, a failure in presenting the beauty and whole counsel of the Gospel.. They will know we are HIS by our love. NOT by our public repentance, false humility, judgmental, selfrighteous spirits, but by the love that draws them to desire that incredible “lap sitting experience”.
MiMi
Millertime,
I hope we all agree that all Christian A’s and C’s and non C TULIP guys like myself are all going to heaven. That’s Good News! No need to be sorry about that…
Whoa, are you hearing me say that people who don’t hold to a reformation mindset are not saved?
Good gracious, may it never be.
I don’t give a flying Fig Newton what you believe about these things. Scripture is clear: if we confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in our hearts God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
We are holding hands and circling a conundrum: we come, he calls, we come, he calls…..
I guess what I care about is people reaading this blog and thinking that everyone here thinks a reformed soteriology is heretical.
There’s at least three of us, anyway….excellent comments, Julie, let’s keep talking. I love reading your posts.
Thanks, RT. I enjoy talking about such things, but I don’t give a flying Fig Newton what people believe about it all either. Some of us like to twist our minds into pretzels just for the pleasure of it — that would be me! But I really don’t expect to find the answer. It’s the thrill of seeking it that gets me going. We’re all on a journey together!
My 2 cents – first, last I checked someone one said “he who believeth in me will have eternal life” and that is what makes one a believer – someone who believes that Jesus died or them and will satnd in their place during judgement day.
That said, the A’s and C’s are following a SYSTEM created to understand the Bible – I guess I have an issue turning a collection of books written over thousands of years and turning ito a system. It wasn’t systematically written.
That said, it is my personally belief that God has given us FREE WILL and God does not MAKE us do anything – he gives us the choice. I also believe that if Calvinism is correct, than there is no way God can hold you responsible for your own sin.
So, anyway I know the posters on this blog and I both believe in Jesus and what he did 2000 years ago.
30 years said (via Hope): “The changes are carefully thought through and put in place with a full and complete explaination as to what is happening and why.”
>>The second part of this statement is an absolute lie.<<
Most of these folk were DOING or are doing “the good work of God” in SGM on a daily basis, they know about it well. They were doing it when their worlds came crashing in on them. You’re preaching to the choir, as though they never sang in it. They were just like you and I.
Hope,
your posts are like streams of water in a desert. Thank you so much!!! And welcome to the Refuge!!
I have always hated labels. I do not call myself a Calvinist, or a Reformed anything, nor an Armenean, or even a follower of Apollos. I am not even certain I am spelling the names right. In fact, when the word “Calvinist” was starting to appear in the church, I didn’t have a clue as to what people were talking about. I love Jesus. I follow Him. I love the Father, I follow Him. I love the Holy Spirit, I follow Him. I do not understand everything in God’s Word, but I believe the most important issues are clear, and that is what I think we can all agree on. My desire is, “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” Labels seem to divide the “Body of Christ.” I believe our differences are affected by our experiences with Jesus. The longer I walk with Jesus, the more I am learning about Him. The more I walk with “Abba Father” the more I am learning about Him. The more I walk with the “Holy Spirit” the more I am learning about Him.
E/S,
it blows me away how much we have in common and how our thoughts are similar!
My children also knew something was wrong at our church long before I did.
I was surprised to see Gilbert’s SGC listed on the timeline, since the timeline is about a different church. However… Gilbert SG is losing people like crazy. We are just one of the many families that have left. Not many people who are still at SG still talk to us, small surprise. But the ones who do talk to us always mention how many more people are leaving. In fact, they are telling us this because they are wondering why people are leaving and they are concerned. You know they aren’t being told the real reason for everyone’s departures.
In January a couple left and that caused a stir due to a letter they had mailed out. That is why the sr. pastor apologized to the church – but he didn’t tell the church why the couple really left or what exactly was in the letter. He quoted portions of it, not all of it. There were promised changes. Also, the pastors who had been the most hurtful and offensive did not get up and apologize. Since January there has been even more people who have left, so the changes haven’t really happened. CJ came to Gilbert to talk to the church, also, a few weeks ago because of the numbers continuing to leave.
We don’t really talk with anyone here about leaving and why, unless someone specifically asks us. Our kids have a few friends from SG who still talk to them. They are constantly telling the kids that the church has changed. Some even say they don’t think our reasons are valid. While our children know what is going on, they understand that not everyone at SG fully discusses things with their children, so their friends will know even less than their parents may know of what is going on. Our kids are polite to their friends about the constant “The church has changed”, even if they are annoyed by it.
They made some doctrinal changes here, too, and didn’t really tell anyone. They were just casually mentioned here and there. For instance, one morning before communion they casually fit in that if one hadn’t been baptised they were not to participate in communion. Several people wondered about that and why that was now added. Some of them were okay with the pastor’s answers. One in particular that everyone seemed to get was, “We need to take a stand on things.” They finally dropped that one. There were other things that were happening, and that is one minor thing. It would talk a long time to tell why we left and what we saw – another topic.
Everyone has such different stories for what they went through here. Of course no one really knows, because they don’t want to gossip at church. Good and not good – because so many bad things get covered. (A whole topic in itself.) One person who called and asked us why we left said that everyone she had talked with said the same the things we did, but none of the pastors told her those reasons for the people leaving. We weren’t surprised.
I know churches in general have problems, but SG in particular is characterized by particular ones. That is different than saying that all churches have problems. With that said, the pastors have really hurt my children’s trust in pastors to be honest, godly men after going to SG. I find myself wanting to be in a church, and not trusting any. Yes, they seemed to truly want to follow God and be humble. But when people are being controlled and getting in trouble (ha ha… counselled… disciplined) for baffling things, it leaves too much doubt. I am heartbroken for the families who were at SGM churches that went through sexual abuse and who went through abusive marriages and had to deal with the problems they did from the pastors. It is bad enough to be in those situations, but then to have your church not support you is just too much, if you ask me.
How do you ever trust another church again? That is what I wonder now.
Keepinstep,
Have you ever attended a family meeting (members only) at CLC?
Re: Reformed and why it matters
As background i used to be one of the most ardent opponents of Calvinism and reformed belief, and would argue with (and often time convince) many Calvinist about how wrong it is, i could quote scripture proof after scripture proof and have supposed solid reasoning and refutations for anythinga Calvinist said. However eventually i came to be a reformed person, and really came to see it as what scripture taught. I think especially the more you study the scripture in the Greek, the clearer it becomes, and most of the anti-Tulip arguments fail. (this is possibly why the reformed denominations generally require the most schooling for pastors, and require the knowledge of the scriptures in the original language, where many Armenian pastors cannot read scripture in the greek/hebrew).
Now i wholeheartedly do not believe being reformed is at all necessary for salvation, but i do think the belief matters, especially at a denominational level. I think it is no surprise that the Armenian denominations have gone very liberal theologically, and tend to go towards universalism, and salvation of all. There are those who are extremely theologically liberal and hold to all the 5 points of armenianism, but you will not find (at least that i have seen) those who hold to the 5 points of calvinism become theologically liberal. (Now this is not to say that there are not armenians who are very orthodox, and conservative theologically – i was one of them – but that the trend for denominations is to go liberal). I think the reason it matters, and the crux of it for me at least, is that the reformed belief is more about what God does, and the armenian is more man focused.
What grieves me is how the reformed beleifs are sullied by SGM’s calling themselves reformed, when they are not reformed at all. SGM is not God focused, they are SGM focused, and sin focused, which is not reformed at all. The classic reformed tenantsthat are beyond TULIP (which they sorta believe in in a superficial way) are completely missing. Such reformed beliefs as the preisthood of all believers(I know not only reformed), the reformed belief about culture (that God is completely sovereign so he uses everything to teach us about Him, so we do not have to fear culture/the world), the beleif that the HOly spirit most clearly speaks through the multitude of believers, the form of church government, the roll of the Holy Spirit (regardless of being cessationist or not, the reformed beleif that the Holy Spirit is able to convict us, and lead us, and show us the way without it being told to us by authority is diminished), the beleif that the only true authority is the HOly Spirit speaking in scripture, and more. It grieves me that SGM has made many, many people miss the sweetness, security and freedom of the reformed beleif because it has twisted it to make it harsh, tenuous, and constricting.
Hi Worn Out,
Welcome to The Refuge!
I can so totally relate to the name you have chosen to post under. I can hear the weariness in your words… I was worn out, too, during our last year at our SGC, and for a time afterwards. It does get better! It may be difficult to believe that right now, but it is true, dear sister!
I am so sorry for what you are going through, and saddened that these things continue on in SGM.
I am not in a place yet where I can say that I am not wary of churches and pastors. My outlook has improved significantly, though. Our experience with our SGC and the leaders involved made me realize that there is no man (or woman) on this planet that is infallible or perfect or all-knowing or all-wise. Those attributes are God’s and His alone. When leaders portray themselves and their authority on par with God, well… they are deluded, and they are dead wrong.
While I have forgiven the pastors/leaders that sinned against us, the fact remains that SGM’s authoritarian views on doing church is wrong and must change.
All I can say to you right now is please don’t confuse God and Who He is with your experience with your SGM pastors/leaders. They are not God, nor do many of their actions portray Him.
God is real, He is loving and kind… keep your eyes on Him, not on man. He will show you His Truth, He will weed out everything that is not of Him and fill you with His Truth! And, the result will be a wonderful, personal relationship with Him, and your hope and your trust will be restored… not in men or churches, but in Him and Him alone. And that hope and that trust, and the wisdom that only He can give us, will filter down to trusting and serving another church body. I’m sure there are churches and pastors out there that have a healthy view of who they are and Who they’re not.
Not all churches are like SGM and their “family of churches”… as a matter of fact, most aren’t.
Praying for you, my friend… and for all of the good people in Gilbert!… and those in all of the other SGM churches…
30years,
I was there in the early years, when there were “family meetings.”
Then I was there during the many years in which there were no such meetings, and many changes were made without notification or prior discussion.
But when they brought in Reformed theology without any clear announcement of the radical change it would be from the founding doctrines; answered respectful questions about the big change with evasions, lies like “we’ve always taught this,” or the standard brush-off “I think you’d be better off finding another church home;” and, excommunicated a long-time member for the crime of finding Reformed books in a church trash can and asking a pastor why they hadn’t told the church about the switch to Reformed theology, I was outta there.
For those who have an interest, and to serve those who don’t, I’ve moved the calvinism debate here
Worn Out,
Welcome! As Carole said, not all churches are like SGM. It also takes time to learn to trust again. You will eventually go into a fellowship more alert, more aware of leadership responsibility to the sheep, and more ready to test the fruit before giving trust to pastors. Even then, it is the Father whom you will trust first and foremost.
Give yourself and your family time to work through things. Rest in the Lord. He will guide you, I’m sure. Many of us know what your are feeling in one way or another. Though this transition has been painful, you can rejoice that you are finding your freedom in Christ. I rejoice with you!
God IS, and God is GOOD.
Worn Out,
WELCOME!
Your story rang true with me, and I’m thanking God for your clear thinking and also for your integrity with your children. We saw the same thing, in that many of our kids’ friends didn’t know as much as we shared with our children. And our motivation was to share truth with our kids and to help them identify error, and grow into the noble tradition of the Bereans. For our story you can read here: http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?m=20090419
We were definitely ‘shanked’ out of SGM!
We had nobody telling us what was happening after we left and one woman literally told me (years later) that she didn’t ask because she didn’t want to tempt us into the sin of gossip/slander. (My eyes about detatch a retina rolling back in my head, over that one, as if somehow I am not accountable to my Lord for whether or not I fall into sin of any kind.) So congratulations on having friends – any friends – who still talk to you after your departure!
Oh, please look around at the refuge or email Carole or Jim about sending your story to Jim, for the eyes of a “RFD” – Reformed Big Dog who is interested in reviewing our stories with CJ. It is my opinion that CJ has no real idea what is really going on in the West…..or perhaps he does? Either way he is culpable, but I just wonder.
We’re several years away from our departure and healing has happened, I suppose, but it is so difficult to trust men again. Perhaps that is because we were never supposed to trust men that much. Ya know? Trust God, and ‘let God be true, that all men are liars’. I have thought that I might understand that saying/verse now a bit more than I used to.
Just pondering the changes at SGCC – Eric coming back and Keith leaving. I am still pretty shocked that Keith took the fall, really didn’t think that the “apostle” would do that do their #1 ranked student from the PC. What about the other 3 pastors in question? Why haven’t we heard of plans that they are leaving? What about Gene Emerson? No talk about Gene leaving. Makes one wonder, has anything really changed or is it just a lot of hype?
Certainly the hope must be that Eric’s popularity will keep the current numbers steady and bring in new folks. Maybe they are thinking that Eric’s presence will bring some back who have left in the last 6 mos? Who knows???? What we do know is that Steve Shank is coming soon…..
What about the 3 other pastors in question ? My guess is that absolutely nothing will happen to them. The reason we haven’t heard of any plans of their leaving ? Because it’s all being swept under the rug – sort of standard operating procedure at SGCC. And what about Gene Emerson leaving ? Are you kidding ? Like someone else said in this blog, Gene Emerson is a prized SGM Stooge – wihtout him, their ability to sweep trash under the rug is compromised. So, has anything really changed ? Nope. Is it just a lot of hype ? Yes. Is their hope that Eric will be able to seal the coffin until the next unannounced crisis ? Absolutely. You see, nothing has really changed at SGCC. It never will as long as the current model of disfunction limps along, bringing in new converts, while turning out the old. As long as the influx equals or exceeds the outflux, SGCC is happy. As someone else told me about SGCC, the duty of the people at SGCC is to support the pastors and make their lives joyful. As long as you kiss ass, tow the line, and pay your dues, you’re good to go, unless you want access to the inner sanctum. Then it gets really funky, but I wouldn’t know, since I was never able to pierce the veil. But thank goodness I never made it, I may have never escaped !
Fred,
…..I too was pondering along those same lines this morning while driving through the hills of our beautiful countryside…wondering, what do “the great cloud of witnesses” see???? How does the Father see all that is transpiring through this little band of peoples known as SGM?? The year long battle that ensued in Chesapeake and recalling my dear friend Esther/Sylvia—praying,writing letters and appeals for help–shuffled around by pastors and ‘apostoclic leaders’ who never really heard and never heard or saw through Holy Spirit—her “answers” from Gene Emerson—go back to Keith and submit to him (the blind abusive pastor) and from Steve—no answer—from Ketih, her reminder that Christians are called to suffer and not to forget about the early Christians who were sawn asunder—and that she would be called to suffer a lifetime in her marriage—from Brett the threat of church discipline if she didnot allow her abusive husband to return home…The three couples who were her advocates—who heard the cries of the abused and discarded and laid down their lives and reputations/positions to plead for her and other women who were not heard and discarded…and the three couples were consequently branded as “enemies of the church” by Gene Emerson—I believe God hasNOT branded them in any such manner—but their banner is:’ Courageous’ amd “warriors for Truth’.
And then—-Keith announces that all along he has been thinking of leaving his position as pastor at Chesapeake and all along Eric has wanted to be in Chesapeake again (not planting a church in another part of Va as he had been planning and praying about for quite awhile—and the band of people ready to go with him,selling their homes,etc etc and planning to be part of said church plant). And Keith stating that all of these changes had NOTHING to do with the recent upheavals in Chesapeake——- I wonder, when will any of them take public responsibility for their duplicitous speaking to Gods people????????????? Why is this stronghold of deceit and control and illusion so imprtant to them??????
Are SG pastors and CJ truly beginning to see there is serious destructive cracks in their system????Will they herald their humility when they see their abusive tactics patterned in the many many letters read by CJ and the RBD mediator????? Or will they take steps to publically acknowledge their grievous sins upon Gods people???? We shall see……..
Hi Worn Out,
Welcome. I’m sorry to hear of the difficulties of you and your family. As far as trust goes, I know how hard it is when the phrases sounded right, but then you run against actions that tell you that fruit indicates integrity and not words. May the Lord Himself give you comfort and counsel and provide healing from your fellow believers here and where you are. God bless you and tenderly lead you.
Thank you Miller and Waters. Excellent posts and I totally agree. Swept under the carpet once again. Made to look pretty once again (bringing Eric back in). Smiles on the faces and all is well. The truth is that all is not well and if you look closely into the faces of the sheep still in SGCC you see stress, strain, pain and fatigue. They know deep in their spirits that something is very wrong yet they cannot bring themselves to look beyond the facade into reality. The reality that all they have believed in through SGM and their dearly beloved leaders and pastors has all been a lie, deception, sham; lie, deception, sham, and on and on. They continue to hope in their dearly beloved movement and church and yet, we are told to place all of our hope in the person of Jesus Christ!
I agree that things have not changed. True change is seen in the leadership – through genuine public confession and repentance as evidenced through transformed hearts and lives but also in the people. Evidence of LOVE is what I am looking for. The LOVE of Jesus Christ that knows no boundaries, that knows no preferences, that knows no limits. Don’t get me wrong. There are those sheep in SGCC who truly do have the heart of Jesus but I believe that they really do not fit there and deep down the Spirit is stirring them and they know something is very wrong. It’s those in the inner circle still operating in the same ole MO. At a recent event at SGCC, there were still those who turned their faces away from the lovely, yet broken Esther and others. No words, no smiles, just hardness of heart. Does this demonstrate change? No its the same ole’ same ole’ at SGCC.
I too Millertime, am thankful to have been released from “the grip of the terrible” Jeremiah 15:21. BUT GOD….God says in Jeremiah 15:19 ….If you return, Then I will bring you back; You shall stand before Me; If you take out the precious from the vile…..For I am with you to save you and deliver you, says the Lord, I will deliver you from the hand of the wicked, And I will redeem you from the grip of the terrible.” There is hope folks for the sheep still being held in captivity and bondage. God says, “IF you return…..” He is poised and ready to bring forth a great and mighty deliverance to SGM but there must be a returning to HIM…… and turning one’s back away from the SGM idol. Jesus desires to be our 1st love but He will not force it.
Hello to all!
My heart is crying out to God and I pray for Eric that he has not compromised himself in ANY way; that he has not participated with deception; duplicity, lieing in ANY way. For if he has, his ministry will not succeed and is doomed to fail. For God will not be mocked. God created Eric with amazing giftings to be a great man of God. However…. he will never fulfill the destiny that God, before the foundation of the earth, prepared for him to walk in and has set before him if he has walked in and participated in deception, duplicity, lieing, etc. However….there is hope for us all that through the blood of Jesus Christ who forgives all our sins and washes them completely away, that through His kindness we repent and return to Him with pure hearts!
Walking in Freedom,
I join with you in interceeding for Eric: — That he will take a lion heart of courage as Holy Spirit reveals the insidious workings of all the enemy has sown and built on in SGM.— David faced Goliath—and reached into his bag from which he had placed stones—when he faced Goliath his trained hand took out the stone that would slay the giant Goliath, the mocker of God and Gods people….his faith for the battle was in the Almighty God—he didnot take the armor of Saul—he came to the battle as one fully abandoned to the power of God. May Eric cast off any religous dead ‘armor’ he has taken up…and walk in Truth and Light and have the like-heart of David ..casting out the voices of the letter of the law…and become a leader of Gods people in newness of life and purpose..worhsipping the Risen Savior–who reveals the Father God…and His great great unfathomable love. Amen
Waters, if you’re hoping that Eric will fix things, you’re being hopelessly hopeful. HE was part of the problem too, you know, and he DID compromise his values and believes for job security. I know, I’ve heard solid, first-hand testimony to that fact, and exeprienced some of it myself with him personally. You see, his ENTIRE life/career/salvation is born from, and part of, SGM. He will not give that up !
Waters . . (11:07)…
Excellent post, and very salient questions, but for me the obvious question is that if the SGM leaders took responsiblility for their actions wouldn’t they be admitting culpability and open to lawsuits?
I hate to be so cynical but isn’t this the $64,000 question?
(money and reputation vs. humility and integrity?)
Sadly I don’t think Eric will give SGM up either although I know that there are many hoping he will.
Millertime,
My hope is not IN Eric— I know that he too sometimes operated unjustly. I know, too, that there are a handful (and I do mean handful) of young men who are pastoring in SMG who have exhibited a tender heart towards the Lord and a sold-out answer to serving God—they have been warped, in my opinion, with SGM man-made doctrines and opertional management of their congregants. The life of Holy Spirit operating through them and (others) is grievously missing. This is a fight—presently, I am praying for two young SGM pastors—for the power of Almighty God to sweep through them and for His Wind to blow away dross and Pharisitical (sp?) leadership—so they can HEAR,SEE and Obey…they are asleep and blind and entrenched…the SGM fortress is…a fortress. Honestly, I do believe the whole thing will require a ‘dunamis’ empowered explosion from Holy Spirit to break down the walls of SGM……Just standing in the gap–praying as Holy Spirit leads…
Defended,
How public confession and taking responsiblity for matters that have occured in the church works in these situations, I don’t know. Perhaps this is an area the “RBD” could be of help IF the Gaithersberg echelon humbly fall on their face before the Lord. Confession and true repentance followed by actions,would BEGIN to bring truth,healing, and redemptive PROCESS for all—leadership and congregants and those who have been mauled. I pray we see “Step 1″ come to pass.
Something happened to me last week that has totally transformed the way I look at the whole SGM issue. A chain of events and a series of misunderstandings led someone to judge me harshly and incorrectly. I was fairly scathingly rebuked for something I don’t recall doing. God and I are the only ones who truly know my heart (and sometimes it’s only Him and not me!) but at this point I feel fault was mislaid at my feet. Dazed and wounded, I am trying to learn from this what God has for me to learn.
With all the talk about Eric Hughes and others — Keith, et al — many of us are in that same blind position my accuser is in right now. We don’t know these men or don’t know them well. We are not positive that they are bad men but are believing bad (though perhaps true) reports about them. I absolutely HATE that phrase, but it fits the situation to a certain extent. Some of our friends know these men to be uncompromising men of faith, and others seem to know them well enough to know they are cowtowing to the SGM elite. But I, personally, don’t know either to be true! And only God knows them as the little boys they really are, curled up in their prayer closets, uncertain, unsettled, worried about providing for their families, worried that SGM may be right and they may be wrong to question or to side with those who have left (although there should be only one side — God’s). Until God strengthens them, removes the blinders from their eyes, and brings them out, we ought, I believe, only to pray and not judge. Warn people, perhaps, to stay away because there is deceptive doctrine involved in these churches, but somehow do it without judging people whose hearts we don’t really know.
I had no idea this person was forming such ill opinions of me. I try, not always successfully, to be gentle and kind, but clearly somewhere along the way I wasn’t or I did something that was misconstrued. This can happen to ANYONE if it can happen to me. I am fairly quiet in person, so it was a huge surprise to me that I had been so completely misunderstood. Now I want to be ultra careful about forming judgments about other people based solely on what I see from the outside — or worse, on what I hear from others.
While I do think CJ is culpable for a lot of faulty doctrine spilling down into the churches, the real enemy is Satan, the deceiver who has convinced CJ, through whatever chinks in his armor allowed it, to substitute man-made efforts for the full-on grace of God — grace that does not always work its beautiful work overnight in a person’s life but vigorously and diligently weaves a beautiful tapestry day by day over a lifetime of communication between man and his God, complete with false starts and stops and smooth progress followed by backward stumbles. I highly recommend Francis Schaeffer’s book, True Spirituality, for insights about all this.
Progressive sanctification cannot be wrought by man’s efforts — we all know that! But the idea that we CAN perfect ourselves did not come to CJ overnight either, and it was dressed in such gilded garb that Satan managed to convince him it was of God. As grace works in our hearts over time, so does deception. I want to urge us all to daily prayer for this church in Chesapeake over the long haul and for Eric and for all the dear folks who stayed out of love for their dear friends.
Megan
You know a tree by its fruit, and here we have consistent bad fruit over a significant period of time. Until we see radical changes and consistent good fruit that is 180 degrees opposite from the bad fruit, well, I haven’t seen or heard anything that indicates this is taking place. So why wear yourself out with bad trees ? I once had a bad tree in my front yard that was diseased. It was too far gone to repair, and in fact, probably couldn’t be repaired. I had to take it down. Sometimes it’s just time to dig up the tree, slice it up, and haul the pieces to the dump. There is a time for everything, time to call a spade a spade, time to drag the trash to the road.
As has been discussed often here, the way “leaders” are identified and elevated and placed in SGM is all backwards. I think the biblical method is that God raises men up within groups of people and the PEOPLE see it so clearly that following those leaders and being persuaded by them (NOT OBEDIENT TO THEM) is almost second nature becausetheir mannerisms and godly character make it natural to the real believer. These leaders persuade those “under” them; they don’t order people around and don’t use heavy-handed, authoritative methods to herd the ‘laity” in the direction they consider correct…
SGM assign men to vocational ministry without any input whatsoever from “the group of people,” they supposedly pastor. They just do it. That is why pastors in SGM are not accountable to the congregation, although they do say they are accountable to the other pastors in their pastoral “care group.” In the SG “church” we were involved in, the pastors had their own special care group, NEVER involved in the care groups of the congregation, except, of course, oversight
. No wonder there is the sense of separation between the “holy” men and the rest of us.
Hi Everyone:
Freedom Fighter said:
“With all the talk about Eric Hughes and others — Keith, et al — many of us are in that same blind position my accuser is in right now. We don’t know these men or don’t know them well. We are not positive that they are bad men but are believing bad (though perhaps true) reports about them. I absolutely HATE that phrase, but it fits the situation to a certain extent. Some of our friends know these men to be uncompromising men of faith, and others seem to know them well enough to know they are cowtowing to the SGM elite. But I, personally, don’t know either to be true! And only God knows them as the little boys they really are, curled up in their prayer closets, uncertain, unsettled, worried about providing for their families, worried that SGM may be right and they may be wrong to question or to side with those who have left (although there should be only one side — God’s). Until God strengthens them, removes the blinders from their eyes, and brings them out, we ought, I believe, only to pray and not judge.”
Freedom Fighter, this is so important. I totally agree with you. I do know Eric Hughes to be a wonderful man of God, but I believe he is struggling within the confines of this movement. I also believe God is bigger than any of this, and is able to open the eyes of people. He certainly did this for me after 32 years of difficulty in my marriage and also 21 years in Sovereign Grace Ministry. If God can help me, he can help anyone!!!! My hope has and always will be that God will restore and heal His people. I hope that my husband gets totally set free from the bondage he lives in. I pray that my children will continue to heal and be set free from their wounds. I pray that I will continue to heal and be restored by God. I pray that I will be able to “water others in the same way that I have been watered.” If I ever sound angry about anything it is because I am really angry at Satan himself. He is our real enemy not people. There is no doubt that I have walked in blindness as much as anyone else. It is the Holy Spirit who is able to ”enlighten the eyes of the heart” to see truth and to know the hope that we have in Jesus Christ. Holy Spirit is there for each of us to continue to reveal who God is, and who we are in Christ. He helps us to know our identity. Holy Spirit is there to guide us into all truth. May we not grieve Him!!! The truth will set us free.
I also want to ask “RT” to please forgive me for recently being offensive on this blog. I believe I really offended you. And if I offended anyone else please forgive me too. I love God’s people. I plan to spend eternity with all of you. I am so so very sorry. I was not meaning to attack anyone’s convictions, I was mainly speaking of how my family and I were affected by the introduction of Calvinism into Sovereign Grace Ministries in the way it was. As I said before, I have not studied indepth any of the extremes. I mainly study the Bible and do try to listen to others and their interpretations of the scripture. I also want to honor each of my brothers and sisters in Christ and their positions on scripture, but I do not want someone to push their convictions on me nor do I want to push my convictions on them. My desire is to take all I hear and allow God to bring me into balance teaching and understanding. We have to be so careful because our tendancy sometimes is we hear something or someone and try to make an altar to worship that person or idea (like the disciples when they went up on the mount with Jesus, and Moses and Elijah appear and they want to make an altar). Could that be where some of the “isms” have come from?
What if we take all of the teaching, and find a place of balance with all of them? Maybe God is so big that He cannot be contained in one way of thinking? Maybe He purposely provides us with what appears like contradiction in scripture because in reality He is so big that he is all of these thoughts brought together into balance? I do not want try to discuss doctrine here, that is suppose to be over in the other area on the blog. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts to each of you. As my dad said to the pastors when we met with them during those difficult meetings last year, “There are some things in scripture that we are sure of and would be willing to die for, but some of these unclear matters I wouldn’t be willing to die for.”
God bless each of you today, Love, Esther (Sylvia)
Esther/Sylvia,
Oh how I hear the MASTER speak out through you. Your kindness and gentleness and love for HIS people is so contagious and Christ generated. You can rejoice that God has turned the tragedies in your life into beauty. Isn’t HE good?
Water and Esther,
Really GOOD posts. Thank you both for reminding us to walk in His love.
I will add that, when injustice occurs, we can step in to put things right. When there are captives to an unloving system of church government, we are walking in love when we try to tell these people that there is freedom outside of their small world of controlling rules and leadership.
We cannot judge a leader’s heart, because we do not know it. However, we can judge the fruit of his leadership. So I think we need to be careful of making personal insults to these men, while continuing to reveal the fruit of our experiences in this ministry. We want them to be set free, as well. We want all of our brethren to walk in their freedom in Christ!
Esther/Sylvia,
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hugs }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
:]
Esther/Sylvia,
You ARE bringing “water” to others—every time you post—as GDSGM stated: “we hear the Master speak out through you” Thankyou for the eternal perspective you brought today–
P.S.– I want to say we are mailing our story to CJ this weekend– I hope those whom God has ‘nudged’ will do so too. We have struggled with the knowing that CJ hasnot contacted those whom he has their name and adress, etc—however—this IS the door God has opened— would it not be so significant for those on the Gaithersberg hill to receive a deskFULL and the RBD could see the very real patterns???—Just a nudge from one (us) who has procrastinated while sifting through pain and mistrust…I pray we will all be strengthened by the Lord in this. Thankyou for all your voices here……….
Canary,
I so agree with you. It is NOT the men who are captivated by the system that we are so at odds with; it is the unbiblical system that has evolved through the minds of men with probable ”good” intentions. Those intentions though were flawed from the beginning because they were built on fleshly foundations. The shepherding movement, which SGM has its roots in, was and is unbiblical at its very foundation. Our ONLY covering is the Lord Jesus–never a man–NEVER. It is the “church system” that we are at odds with. These men are products of the system and in many cases blind to it. It is very hard to persuade them, however, because their whole identity and livlihood it tied to it, making it very difficult to objectively look at it. So, they go on numbing themselves to the people’s voices and even their own senses, and eventually end up defending the system because the system has indelibly anesticized them.
GDfS,
I love the whole “covering” discussion.
A search of the word “covering” in the NT will only lead you to the topic of head coverings….
You are so right, GD!
Jim, Hee-hee! That discussion would get so hot that it would probably blow up a few computers!
Jim,
I remember buying into it in the 70′s via the Gothard seminars. My wife, however, wasn’t as enthused as I was. I got the “she needs to be in submission part,” but was a little slow in the part of me “loving her as Christ loved the church.” To make a long story short, she “helped” me see a little more clearly on out long ride home from a distant city where one of the seminars was being held.
Maybe Paul forgot to emphasis the covering issues, other than the head covering part?
GD,
Paul “forgot”? Hee-hee. Now I’m really laughing. He wasn’t married, was he?
Bet you spent some time in your wife’s birdcage. I’m sure it was of short duration, because you sound like a really smart man.
Canary,
Actually, I am usually a very slow learner, BUT my wife was especially capable of “helping” me see that Gothard’s illustration of being under the umbrella of authority was a little twisted and didn’t “FEEL” really loving to her coming from my newly discovered manliness–if you know what I mean.
It all boiled down to me seeing that my wife’s submitting to me wasn’t something I insisted on or monitored. It was a gift she freely gave or didn’t. Notice it doesn’t say men–make sure your wives submit to you. I frankly had my hands full with the loving part.
which, by the way, can only be done as I walk in the Spirit. It never works if I try to pull it off in the flesh. He said, “without me you can do nothing.”
Amen to that, GD. Likewise, to “submit to my husband without any fear” must happen through the Holy Spirit, as well. I think also that, as God does not DEMAND obedience or submission from us, how can we turn and demand it from others? Hmmmm…now there is a thought.
To clarify my above post, God does not demand from us because He has given us free choice. He wishes us to come to Him, not out of compulsion, but because we desire to know Him.
Canary, that’s the tension behind the entire Reformed vs. Free Will debate, isn’t it? That He doesn’t want us to come to Him out of compulsion but because we freely choose to, yet being all-knowing and all-powerful, He controls all. That’s why I think it has to be both free will AND predestination in some way that our pea brains are unable to understand right now. Does that make sense?
FF,
It’s a tough one. Predestined/predetermined by the Creator of the Universe.
God said, “this will happen.” I don’t see a lot of wiggle room there.
Now that it’s the weekend, I wish the debate thread had some legs. When I began to see God as truly sovereign, 17 years after He saved me, my entire life changed.
Jim,
You know who I am, as you have e-mailed me before. We have some questions for you and would like some input re, contacting CJ. I would appreciate an e-mail.
Thanks!
greener-please send me a note.
jim@sgmrefuge.com
FF,
Like you, I tend to see both sides of the issue. The NT is so full of opposites that seem to contradict – like, salvation is free to all, but it will cost your everything. Or, in order to find your life, you must loose it. Yet, when you loose your life, you will find it. Ohhh, my poor birdbrain!
So I just stick as close as I can to my Elder Brother’s side, and let Him figure out the stuff that is too big for me. One day, these debates won’t even matter. We will know it all, and laugh at how silly our arguments got to be. Of course, when the debates about these matters cause the saints to split up, to loose love for one another, I guess we won’t be laughing then. There are some leaders in SGM who will be lamenting over their lack of love for the saints when they see how much importance they placed on their doctrine over God’s love for His people. It is only His mercy that set me free from that same leaven-thinking.
It seems like those handling the debate on this blog are being considerate to each other. That is so good. We all have Jesus in common. Cool, huh?
Steve Shank came and spoke at SGCC. No announcements. No changes; no honest discussion on the events in Chesapeake over the last year, no transparency, no brokeness, no repentance over the failings of SGM and SGCC; teaching on the Israelites and Egypt (Israelites had years of plenty and then years of wilderness); tears, yes but over a Father’s Day testimony by a very wonderful, truly self sacrificing father. Also, statement made that of course, he doesn’t allow his family to watch the ice skating Olympic event (because of the women skaters’ costumes, I’m sure).
Check it out and listen if you so desire http://www.sgcoline.org/messages Very disappointing and disheartening. I feel so badly for those still in SGCC. Surely, they deserved more from the man who founded this church and is high up on the leadership ladder of SGM. How healing it would have been if he had been forthright and open with these poor sheep and led them in VICTORY AND OVERCOMING THROUGH JESUS CHRIST! Most likely many slaps on the back and “Steve, excellent message!” I am sad.
Funny thing: one cannot be disappointed unless they have hope……once again I am reminded not to put any hope in these leaders/pastors of SGC. Hope must be solely in Jesus Christ for He is the only person who will never disappoint!
Not suprising at all from the man who has caused so much damage to so many lives.
Sorry, that website is http://www.sgconline.org/sermons. Blessings, Fred
30years…
On June 10th, you wrote:
>In all my thirty years, I have never witnessed anyone, pastor or otherwise, being honored for thirty minutes straight. <
You must have missed the Sunday meeting in the late 90s, when the entire Mahaney family shed tears over one another when the daughter (Nicole? I can’t remember which one) was about to leave for another church (Frederick?). They all praised each other, etc etc for about 45 minutes.
Having sat through many of these mutual-edification-of-leadership sessions at CLC, in which Jesus was ignored, I finally couldn’t take it any longer; I got up and left the auditorium while the spectacle was still in progress.
Listening to Steve Shank’s message from Sunday, one can’t help but to consider the pre 1990 Soviet Union. Empty supermarket shelves, starving people, yet…the leaders of the USSR still maintained that everything is fine and the country is doing well…Same old schtick: men are honored, Steve Shank, once again is “priviledged” to be at SGC, and the church is still a “spiritual experience” to him, and the church still stands as “a testimony of the faithfulness of God, the power of God, and the mercy of God.” Really? After all the church has gone through…no mention of any of it, except more of the same we have been hearing for years. An obvious missed opportunity (though, one must consider the intention of this maneuver). I echo Fred in his concern for those who are still there, still under the same bondage, and still blind to the tactics of this movement. Obviously, if it wasn’t clear before this Sunday, it certainly is now: no trust or confidence should ever be placed in men (or leaders), no matter how high up the chain of command they may be, but only in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Though many have woken up and have followed the exodus, many wonderful Christian brothers and sisters still remain in a spiritually DEAD realm. Our prayers go out to them.
I second Keepinstep’s observation about their little practice of self-adolation between themselves. It’s almost sickening. I endured it for fifteen years. I overlooked it in the earlier days, but now it is obviously just insincere and disgusting you-know-what kissing. It’s a sick circus show, that’s all it is.
Fred……………..
Thank you for linking to the Shank sermon of Sunday last down at Chesapeake.
This depressing and aimless message about Israelites suffering at the hands of Pharaoh makes one wonder to what Shank was really referring.
Are the people of SGCC called to suffer an interminable period of hardship and want?
Are the people of SGCC to flee from the bondage of Egypt (SGM) and seek the Promised Land (another church)?
Do better days really lie ahead?
……….and where are those missing sermons from 1/18 – 3/8 ???
……so many questions, so little time.
N.S.L.B.
Fred said, “I am sad.”
Aw Fred, here’s a canary hug = [[[[[[[Fred]]]]]]] from a little, yellow bird who turned a bit blue upon reading your post. Take heart, brother in Christ. We might not be able to reach the leader’s with our message, but the sheep are hearing, one at a time. We are here for them, right?
millertime — this was set up and run by the same guy who authored “Humility” !!
I’ll never get over this: Two thousand people got themselves up that Sunday morning, rushed to get dressed, have breakfast, brush their teeth, and spend money on gasoline to get themselves to CLC — so they could worship God and discover more about Jesus? No, so they could sit quietly and observe the supreme-leader’s family congratulate themselves over their daughter’s niceness, hear how much she appreciated her parents’ pointing out her sin, and tearily say “goodbye” as she departed for life at another (SGM) church, one-half-hour up the road!
Sick, sick, sick. I wouldn’t be suprised if CJ and his cronies begin devolving into a cult. It seems that as additional darkness is exposed, the leadership becomes more self-protective. Instead of light and transparency, we get more and more darkness and deceipt. So how long before it devolves into a cult ? That is my question !
millertime…………..
you said…”It seems that as additional darkness is exposed, the leadership becomes more self-protective.”
While looking for the now infamous Gene Emerson/Keith Breault/Eric Hughes message of March 29th where Gene Emerson announced that Eric was coming back and Keith was going to plant a church, Quizzler finds that that message has mysteriously disappeared from the SGCC Sunday Message Archive.
Maybe this message (and several other messages also missing from the archive) turned out to be an embarrassment to the SGCC/SGM leadership – you remember, the message where everyone had a different version of the timeline of when Eric was called to come back to Chesapeake and Keith was called to plant a church.
Can you say revisionist history????
Can you say cover-up???
Thankfully, Jim recapped the message here and it is not completely lost!
……………What comes next, telling the sheep what books they are allowed to read???
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler has come upon a most interesting and intriguing piece of information. Where are these missing messages that have been completely removed from the SGCC archives? Why did they (who is they?) remove the messages? More control, manipulation, deception and cover ups. Those of us who listened to the message know that Keith and Eric’s timelines didn’t line up/weren’t the same. Jim did an excellent job of summarizing the important points… Thank you Jim. So that seems pretty clear why they would take that one off, but what about all the others that have disappeared????? Again, it’s cleaning the outside of the cup and leaving the inside dirty. Scripture is very clear about this (Matt. 23:23-28).
My dear Quizzler
But the message preached at Kingsway by the “apostle” Gene is still there, so there is a summary of what was said at Chesapeake right here for your listening pleasure. If you start listening at about the 30 minute mark, you will get a flavor for the “pastoring shuffle.”
Keepinstep,
CJ’s newly married daughter was leaving CLC after 20+ years to serve in another SGM church (not Frederick, which began only a couple of years ago). She was honored. For 45 min.? No way. During this time, she honored her parents. And she honored the Lord. it was not one person being honored for 45 minutes.
There was no time of worship at this meeting? I can’t think of any sunday meeting where there was no worship. (I can remeber meetings where all we did was worship). What happened during the rest of the meeting (75+ min.)? You don’t know. You left.
What is going on here? You have put an extremely negative, unkind, spin on a long ago meeting, complete with incorrect facts. When/where will this end? How far are you going to go? Public criticism, negative spin, gross exaggerations, uncharitable judgements of CLC. On and on.
Well, I’m not going on and on. Sorry to disappoint you, but this is my last post. Any further communication will be done privately via email with Jim. I appreciate the work he is doing, privately, to bring about change at SGM.
God began a great work 32 years ago at CLC. By His grace, many changes have been made over the years, to better glorify God and serve the congregation. More changes are on the way.
Thank you for listening. God bless you as you enjoy the love and grace of the Lord at your new church.
………………30 years
30years,
You said, “CJ’s newly married daughter was leaving CLC after 20+ years to serve in another SGM church (not Frederick, which began only a couple of years ago). She was honored. For 45 min.? No way. During this time, she honored her parents. And she honored the Lord. it was not one person being honored for 45 minutes.”
30, it really looks like you’re looking for a loophole here. You seem to be defending the event because CJ’s daughter was leaving, and that “it was not one person”. You’re correct, it was the Mahaney family.
If your daughter moved to another church after 20 years of attendance, would the event receive the same fanfare?
This is one of many examples of the huge clergy/laity divide in SGM. They are “special”.
Absolutely right on Jim. Unless it was a pastor’s child, they would not be called up on stage for an honoring event such as this. Not right, no not right at all! When will all of this end???? Sheeples in SGM churches, please wake up and take notice. Something is frightfully wrong in SGM, the leadership, the polity/government - all of it. Taking Sunday messages off the internet such as Chesapeake has done is another example of the extreme frightfulness of it all. Enough is enough!
CJ, I respectfully ask you to step down. You have orchestrated, guided, approved, etc. the repositioning (firing) of many pastors in your movement. The time is here for you to do the right thing for the good of all. Step down CJ. You have been at the helm during all of the abuse, neglect, control, manipulation, wrong doctrine, therefore you have ultimate responsibility as the captain of this ship. In one way or another, you have allowed all of this to happen. Step down CJ. Do the right thing!!
GD: ” If you start listening at about the 30 minute mark, you will get a flavor for the “pastoring shuffle.” ”
Speaking of shuffle, how ’bout @ 10;00 where he transforms a no longer needed building fund (Partnership fund) offering into a pastors fund?
… With some undisclosed amount for benevolence lumped under the heading Pastoral Care and Benevolence (45%), which he defines as salary for a new pastor. The other 40% is under the heading: Church Planting, which pays for “church planting residents” (salary) and SGM general. And the 15% for local evangelism, a positive.
How ’bout some specific numbers, if you want folks to give? If you entice folks to give using the category “Benevolence,” don’t ya think they should know what percentage is actually going to Benevolence? Wonder why that wasn’t included?
BTW, G also states that this fund brings in 1/4 of the church’s total revenue. He tells the congregation this = “advancing the gospel. “ And, “How a church handles finances says a lot about a church.” Can agree on that one.
And that brings up a great point, Jim, and all. Anything that the leader’s families do is just wonderful, great, fantastic, etc, etc……no one has ever done that before, no one has ever gone through that, etc. Or if a sad event happened, it never happened to someone else like it happened to them(to hear it told).
But let the same things happen to a member’s family and it’s no big deal. Grow up, ask for God’s help and get on with building the church. So there is a definite divide between the clergy/laity and we experienced it time and again. We said , just wait until their kids get older there will be more emphasis on teens(there was) wait until their kids want to be in the worship team, it will be ok then(it was). I could go on with plenty more of the same. That is just immaturity and lack of life experience.
Why do you think elders should lead the body? Because they are elder. They have developed compassion, been in the school of hard knocks and know more than young, inexperienced, incompetent men who think they know it all. These men have the trampled wounded sheep to prove their inexperience and incompetence.
And now that they know some of these stories–the men who deny the pain and anguish as a misunderstanding or lack of teachability, or rebellion on the member’s part prove that they are still stuck in the same rut they have been for 30 years… since they became part of leadership about 25 years too early. They do believe that they are more spiritual, more godly, more qualified to guide and lead these ignorant sheep that anyone else.
And that is why these web sites are up, running and have a good following.
clarification: Pastoral Care was defined as salary for a new pastor. Pastoral Care and Benevolence was the category.
Just my bit of birdseed thought – why wasn’t someone like Esther given a long, standing ovation for the suffering she faithfully trusted God through for twenty-something years? I’m sure the saints and angels have already given her one, and are still shouting their well dones!
Amen Sister Canary! Esther certainly deserves a standing ovation and I give her one right now.
Back to my main point: CJ, the time has come for you to do the right thing and step down. When everything is said and done, it all goes back to you. The finger is pointed directly at you CJ. You have taught these pastors, you have set the course and direction of this ship and YOU CJ are ultimately the one who has run it into the ground. Oh yes, these other leaders and pastors are certainly guilty but YOU CJ are THE BIG DOG and YOU CJ must get out of the way in order for correction and rebuilding to occur. DO THE RIGHT THING CJ: STEP DOWN!
Jim, Fred, et al – thanks for your support on this.
30years…. – as you don’t let the door hit you on your way out, please think carefully about the comments the other gentlemen made to my remarks about the Nicole love-in. What are they seeing, that you simply refuse to see?
Whether the event I described took 15 or 45 minutes is really beside the point, though it certainly felt like 45 to me. The best way the Mahaney family could have “served” the congregation they “serve” would have been to rent a banquet room at the Gaithersburg Marriott, and stage their celebration in front of the 100 people in the church who actually *know* their family (i.e., the other pastors and their families).
Would *your* family have gotten that send-off, even after your years of faithful service? Of course not – but why not?
The bigger question is: should *anyone* get that kind of send-off, occurring as it did in a building dedicated to the God who is jealous for his *own* glory and fame? The whole thing was just so…unseemly; so grotesque. It did not demonstrate humility, but was an exercise of self-congratulation that is a hallmark of SGM leadership.
The Quizzler said:
“While looking for the now infamous Gene Emerson/Keith Breault/Eric Hughes message of March 29th where Gene Emerson announced that Eric was coming back and Keith was going to plant a church, Quizzler finds that that message has mysteriously disappeared from the SGCC Sunday Message Archive.”
And I have the March 29th message downloaded in mp3 format for those that want to listen again. It was downloaded before it was taken off the website and is a very clear recording.
Keepinstep,
I saw the event. Sorry you thought it was excessive. You walked out. Maybe you missed the part where God was specifically acknowledged, thanked, and honored for what he has done. It was somewhat of a milestone event, as their oldest daughter and her husband, who is a pastor, were being sent out to lead another SGM church.
The Mahaney family was honored for their example as Christians, for the way God used them to help others come to know Jesus, and for the influence they have had in helping others grow closer to the Lord. And God was given all the glory for this. God was specifically glorified, honored, and praised for a good work he has done.
And this was not the only event that took place that Sunday.
Scripture says to honor one another. Many folks now and then are honored for a variety of reasons, all for the purpose of acknowledging and giving glory to God for what He has done.
30 Years,
I have been in many churches over my 35 or so year walk with the Lord, in three or four different cities, and I have NEVER seen people “honored” the way they are in SGM churches. It is excessive. When we first began attending the church in Chesapeake, I was shocked and embarrassed at the amount of time they took to honor those who had served selflessly here or there. Yes, it is scriptural to give honor where honor is due. But there comes a point where something ceases to be pleasing to God and becomes an idol. The honoring of congregants, pastors, and care group leaders definitely falls into this category for SGM in my opinion. I was embarrassed to bring my mother to the service because I knew she would notice all the honoring and of course she did. And found it quite odd.
I am not, was not a member of your church, so I can’t speak for it. But I do know that once you get a bit of space between you and these churches you will do a V-8 slap across your forehead and wonder why it took you so long to see what was so glaringly obvious to others. The thing is, we ALL were where you are now at some point, totally oblivious to what was happening. Until you get nosed out yourself or something jars you into realizing the error that is there, you can’t see it. We are trying to warn you and because some of us are still suffering their warnings are laced with a bit of venom, but don’t let that derail you from honestly questioning your leadership about what we’re saying here — about the problems SGM has with excessive legalistic sin-sniffing, lack of benevolence and care for the congregation except when it comes to pointing out their sins, lack of compassion, and an overall aura of self-righteousness or that “we’re better than all those other churches out there” feeling you get from SGM.
It is a divine work of the Holy Spirit for any of us to be able to slip the blinders off and see what is happening in these churches. Your V-8 moment won’t come because we convince you but because the Holy Spirit anoints you and offers divine revelation. That’s what I will be praying for for you, my dear brother. We have all been there. We all understand the sting of having to leave close friends and family in order to find a doctrinally safe place to worship. It’s tough.
Good job Live Wire! Maybe you could put it on You Tube?
CJ, it’s a new day and I respectfully ask you again to step down. Put yourself under evaluation just as you and your leaders have done to Brent D. (in Charlottesville, NC) in these last few weeks and to so many others in the past. For the sake of the Gospel, do the right thing CJ, put yourself under evaluation and then do the right thing, step down and join your congregation as so many former SGM pastors before you have done. This is the honorable thing to do and will demonstrate true humility.
Thank you, FreedomFighter; well said.
30years — thanks for your reply. I sat through enough of those events to know what happened; it wasn’t necessary to sit through *that* entire event to know it was over-the-top. Like FreedomFighter, I pray God will grant you a sense of proportion regarding what is decent and what is indecent, regarding praise given to men.
Fred,
Brent D. was in Charlotte, and is now in Kannapolis/Mooresville area. Has something happened with him that we can know about on this blog?
I second keepinstep’s motion. This sickly honoring business is often totally unjustified, often has little or even NO substance, and is often done just for show and internal politics. It’s bovine fecal matter, I watched it for fifteen years, it’s really sick and way over the top. And here’s the test: How many people are honored for true Christian service who were never allowed into the inner sanctum ? And the answer is ??? Zero !!! None ! Nada ! During those years I saw many, many people doing incredible acts of service and christian caretaking – and were they honored ???? Nope. Why ? Why ? Because they weren’t someone’s pet. You see, in SGM, being honored is more about who you know, and more often than not, not much else.
Canary,
There is a team of at least two, possibly three men from “upper level” SGM leadership evaluating Brent’s position as pastor. Pray for him that he will have the blinders lifted from his eyes concerning his own issues/control as a pastor/individual. It is, I am sure, HIS will that Brent be restored. Yet, as with all of us, he has the responsibility to let the Lord guide is heart and actions. No matter how the evaluation comes out, Brent needs to bow to the call of the Lord, and put away his own agenda. As with all of us, there is a huge PRIDE issue at work here. Lets all pray for that “humble orthodoxy” to take root in this matter that HE will be glorified.
I do want the best for him. He too is a brother in Christ and we should lift him up lovingly, as we do all others.
MiMi
MiMi
30 years wrote - The Mahaney family was honored for their example as Christians,
Me: huh? You mean the patriarchial, shepherding, courship, homeschooling or clc school only life they modeled? Or was it for cj’s arrogance? I;m sorry you can’t see it, bu CJ is anything but humble – look up the defination in a dictionary, or better yet, instead of reading CJ’s book, go read the Bible and see what it has to say on humility. CJ is just the opposited – an arrogent, prideful, self-rightous leader.
Instead of being honored, the Mahaney family should have come forwarded, showed some humility and said “CJ is pulling his family out of all leadership and “a” list work in the church for the damage the things he has modeled has casued people of the years. The proceeds from CJ’s books will go to make restitution to those damaged across all of SGM/PDI. CJ, as the leader or “captian of the ship” takes full responsibility for what has happened in SGM over the years – CJ has removed himself from his position as the “pope” of sgm”
Interesting about Brent D….. Interesting that the ”leaders” above him in SGM are evaluating him. Now I seem to recall Gene Emerson telling a group of folks at the Jan 25th family meeting in Chesapeake that he was not Keith’s boss and that in fact, God was Keith’s boss. HMMMM…..if that is true, that the “apostles” are not the pastors bosses, then how can these “leaders” evaluate Brent, basically putting him on notice or anyone else for that matter?.
When we were still at our SGM church, there was a single woman who visited a few times and was contemplated becoming a member and she eventually did not. One of the reasons she gave for not becoming a member was because she thought church was man-centered in the way in which leaders were applauded and lifted up by the congregation. What she saw was not a special event such is described above but rather it was a pastor being honored on a sunday morning. I am sure we have all seen something like this before with the standing ovation and the whooping and cheering as if you are in attendance at a rodeo.
I found it all quite ironic really given that SGM often goes to great lengths to state that they are not man-centered and to criticize other ministries for being man-centered.
Former, you have hit upon one of the great facades of this movement. We even sang “it’s not about me, as if I should have things my way…”. The truth is that this movement is totally man centered and it’s all about self – me, me, me – my sin and you, you, you – your sin. It’s all about lifting the pastors and leaders up and giving them the adoration due to them. Why do you not see genuine love in these churches? Because Jesus Christ is missing from the lives of these churches. Self has been lifted up and pushed Jesus off the throne. That is why the pastors do not operate in love, mercy, grace. If Jesus Christ was there, Holy Spirit, you would not only see His characteristics, you would experience His love, grace, mercy, peace, faith, etc. This is the very sad truth – Jesus has been pushed aside for adoration and worship of SGM- movement, leaders and pastors.
Miller mentioned cult a few posts back. Webster’s defines cult as: 1. a system of religious worship or ritual 2. a)devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc. esp. when regarded as a fad, b.) the object of such attachment. 3. a group of followers.
Is it a cult? You decide for yourself!
A lot of peopel i know, both in CLC and who have visited, jokingly (but for a reason) refer to it as “church of the standing ovation” THere is a standing ovation every week, it drove me crazy.
Fred,
I assume you have never visited CLC. Because if you spend more than five minutes with the members here, you would know that your entire post does not apply to the Christians at CLC. That post is extremely offensive and hurtful to CLC members.
How can you make that kind of statement about your brothers and sisters in Christ whom you have never met?
How many other churches in SGM have you visited? Enough to justify this kind of abusive, blanket statement?
30 years….You ask me, how can I say this? Because it is what I truly believe from observation of more than one church. I was not speaking of the individual church members. I say this of the leadership because of the abuse, wrong doctrine, control, manipulation, neglect, etc. I do believe that most of the sheeples are in grave danger and are under great deception. There is rampant legalism, performance orientation, and fear within the congregations.
I ask you 30 years….how can you continue to defend this instiution where there has been such abuse, wrong doctrine, control, manipulation, etc? I will say that there was a time when I would have been saying the same things that you are saying and that I would have been defending them with my last breath. That was before God lifted the veil off my eyes and I began to see things more clearly. I pray this for you.
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is why I write on this blog. I want them all set free to live in the freedom of Jesus Christ and walk in the abundance that only He can provide. I GRIEVE for them. I GRIEVE for you. I GRIEVE for lost years for my family and for myself, my friends who have spent years believing the lies that have been proprogated through SGM. Yes, lies about who we are in Christ, lies about our sin, lies about the full Gospel. At the same time, I am experiencing great joy, celebrating the truth of Jesus Christ, appropriating what He did for me on the Cross and through the Resurrection.
CJ: I agree with Fred’s post at 9:30am. I was part of PDI at CFC when one of its founding pastor’s sat down in seeking to honor God and in wanting to not to split the church. CJ, Please do the right thing and step down. Lead by example in doing right, that others would have courage to follow in doing right. Honor God. In light of eternity, in light of all Jesus has done for us, even if it costs you everything…. Please Honor God, Please step down.
Just want to say, I have been to 11 SGM churches, CLC was my home church
since the 1980′s.
I agree with Fred -
30 – What did you think of the SGM tribute to CJ where Cathy Spiro sang, “Where are all the Wealthy Christians” to the tune of Eleanor Rigby. Were you there? Perhaps we had a chance to talk. Perhaps you may have served under me at one time, or perhaps me under you.
Memories….Ahhhh yes – The self-adoration is even better behind closed doors.
I could say a lot here 30.
(You have some jems over on the survivors site.)
BTW Are you running from blog to blog?
Fred (4:12pm) – - At the same time, I am experiencing great joy, celebrating the truth of Jesus Christ, appropriating what He did for me on the Cross and through the Resurrection.
ahhhh….the Resurrection! Jesus off the cross and risen from the dead!
Life from the Dead!!! Seated with Him in Heavenly Places!! Joy unspeakable!!!
Those were the days….. a GREAT topic for a sermon, especially on Easter, ya know?
Not sure if I ever heard one on Easter in the SG churches we belonged to. sigh.
30 years, I agree with Fred’s assessment–and I was at CLC from 1986 to 2007. Of course, there are individuals to whom “man-centered” does not apply, but “fear of man” is rampant at CLC and often confessed at CG as such.
“There are none so blind as those who won’t see.”
I think the proof of this man-centered, in-crowd worship habit lies in the person who was being spotlighted that day. Rest assured I have nothing against this woman – I never knew her personally – but she, and her relationships with her family were being held up, examined and discussed for many minutes for all to admire — for reasons I can’t describe as godly.
What had she done, really, to deserve this? Growing up in the Mahaney family and being homeschooled in that family away from the distracting influences of CLS students and even the larger CLC homeschooling community, it was no “hard thing” (thank you, Harris twins!) to turn out as she did.
And what had she done to deserve all this adulation? Essentially nothing. She had grown up in CLC, had been obedient and dutiful, and had married at an early age another CLC/SGMer who was fast-tracking his way to pastorhood. They were leaving to join another SGM church, located in another upper-middle-class suburban neighborhood in the United States. There was nothing compelling in this story; nothing to garner more than a line in the printed bulletin or moment’s mention at the end of the Sunday announcements.
So, the 2,000-or-so of us in the audience that day were compelled to watch a spectacle of merely parental and familial love — not of appreciation for a mighty miracle of God’s healing, or her salvation from a rebellious youth, or for her continued faith in the face of great suffering or sorrow, or for her having renounced the comfortable Monkey County lifestyle to serve God in the barrios of Los Angeles, the slums of Mumbai, or in secret in Saudi Arabia.
Apart from her being the daughter of the senior pastor and CEO of PDI, there was literally no compelling reason for this woman to have been the focus of everyone’s attention for this long period on a Sunday morning. And the person who decided that we would all sit there and watch a purely family event was her father, Mr. C.J. Mahaney, aka Mr. Humility aka Mr. Cheap Seats.
keepinstep-
That’s a fact…
Fred:
First, I agree with Jim in other posts he has made that I would not label SGM as a cult because if you look at is various doctrinal statements in isolation the group appears to be quite orthodox and I think really that is the real test of whether or not a particular religious group is a cult or not. Namely, what do they believe or say they believe about the Bible, God, the person of Jesus, the nature of salavation, etc.
Rather, as others smarter than me have commented here, the issues in SGM flow from a polity that provides little or no accountability to those in leadership.
Secondly, during my time in SGM, I was the beneficiary of some that cheering and applauding on a few occasions and I can tell you that when you stand there and have people cheering as if you just won the Super Bowl and all you have really done is just try to serve in the church the way you believe that any Christian can or should do, it feels very odd.
Make no mistake about it there is “hero worship” which occurs in SGM, has always occurred and probably will continue.
I don’t know about these “evaluations”. It seems that Steve Shank, he of the “first-we-degift-then-we-regift” school of evaluation, is involved in way too many of these events. ‘Nuff said.
OK, one more thing to say. Watch for Mr Shank’s continuing involvement in California. With a new “plant” going on in SF and chaos in the adoption in Pleasanton and degifting-regifiting in SoCal (BTW, where did the pastor that replaced Mark Lauterbach and who then got replaced by the newly gifted Mark Lautebach end up?) … well …
NW:
Chaos in Pleasanton?.,,,,sounds like another SGM time bomb.
The whole fiasco around Mark Lauterbach is really quite amazing. I heard him speak at my old church and I thought this guy really a breath of fresh air to SGM because (a) he is very gifted expositer and (b) SGM had an older, seasoned pastor who finally seemed to fit the definition of “elder”. At least somebody in SGM leadership recognized they made a mistake and had Mr. Lauterbach reinstalled. I guess correcting one mistake in a thirty year history covers a multitude of uncorrected mistakes.
Sometimes I get fed up that it’s taking so long for reform to come and other times I think who am I to even question what CJ or anyone wants to do in their own denomination? Is it my business? I mean, I don’t even go to one of these churches anymore. I think the reason I still post here sometimes is that I love my friends who are still in SGM churches and am aching for my dear Sylvia who I never knew was suffering so much and for my friends who stood by her when she needed them and then were called enemies of the church by Gene Emerson. It riles me.
These are not made up stories, 30 years. I know these people and they have really and truly been subjected to abuse and nonsense that should not go on in church. I know other churches have similar goings on and that fact is sometimes brought up as if it somehow lessens the severity of what goes on within SGM, but is that a valid excuse? Because other churches abuse their parishioners, it’s okay that SG does, too?
And for that matter, because pastors and care group leaders do things that are laudable, does that mean they need to be stood up for a round of applause? What happened to not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing? Scripture can be twisted to mean just about anything. A prophet is without honor in his own country, so yes, I suppose that means he IS going to be honored in other places. But then there’s that verse that says don’t muzzle the ox while he’s plowing the field — that one has been used by people like millionaire Bob Tilton who tossed thousands of prayer requests, unread, in a dumpster behind a wrap, pack, and ship P. O. Box company.
At least we can all agree that Tilton was full of #_%@_#%&. But for some reason, no one within SGM is willing to admit that there are problems within their denomination, too. I know that individual believers sitting in these churches are raising godly offspring within a community that is safe and feels right to them. I have not found other likeminded families in many of the churches I’ve attended, but I still attend them rather than the local SGM church because they are filled with REAL people with REAL problems and issues and they are out in the world trying to help the people of their communities rather than committed to avoiding outsiders and remaining in close community only with those who are a part of SGM. There are exceptions, and I’m glad because it is these families who will still talk to us. I so treasure their friendship!
Guess I just needed to get that out this evening… I’ve had a rough week. : (
Live Wire…………….
So you have the infamous sermon!! I encourage you to make it available to all. This message, above all other recent messages at Chesapeake, points out the deceit, deception and manipulation that is rampant within this movement/cult.
When such gross inconsistancies are spoken by these men it is no wonder that they want to cover up the whole mess and expunge this message.
What about the other missing messages? Where are they? Were these also deemed too dangerous and damaging to the SGM agenda to keep in the archive?
So much for full and open disclosure and transparency……………….what a joke.
Gratefully Disillusioned……
Thank youfor pointing us to the equally deceptive message from Gene Emerson down at Kingsway. I wouldn’t be surprised if this message disappears also. Live Wire – you’d better make a copy.
There seems to be no end to the arrogance and tale spinning by these so called men of God.
N.S.L.B.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that a lot of incriminating sermons have disappeared. A quick survey this evening showed: (1) sermons from the Brooklyn church that discussed the leadership changes from a year or so ago are gone (founding pastor shuffled off, PC grad quit, etc); (2) sermons from the leadership changes at the Colorado church are gone (the long time pastor “retired”?); (3) sermons on the de-gifting and re-gifting in San Diego are no longer posted.
Freedom Fighter, I know that there is abuse in other churches but would you say that these would be more isolated cases or patterns of abuse over long periods of time? The abuses within SGM have occurred over long periods of time with a definite pattern/similarities of abuse throughout many of the SGM churches. Of course the Catholic church had a long term pattern of abuse within their churches.
Seems to be a definite cover up going on within SGM. Why else would they remove all of these Sunday morning messages? It sure seems that this must have come down from the top if so many churches have done the same thing.
You’re right, Fred. The abuses I’m thinking of are isolated incidents at various congregations here and there and usually are considered shocking to the congregation when they happen. It’s a different thing than what has happened at SGM churches. What I was referring to was the idea that because these abuses occur, people still in SGM have said, “Well, things like this happen everywhere!” as a way of lessening the importance of what’s happening within their own denomination. It’s awful when abuses occur, but you know this sort of thing happens all the time across America. Too bad that it does but we press on… I’ve seen this method work elsewhere — to “normalize” homosexuality, divorce, extra-marital affairs, or something like that. There’s a word for it. Someone on here has already mentioned it, too. I just can’t remember the term…
Good Morning,
CJ, it’s a new day and again, I respectfully ask you to do the right thing. Evaluate yourself and step down. You may no longer be a pastor, but we all know that you are running the ship. This is your ship, CJ. You created it with your hands and the ship has hit ground. We thought it was created by God, maybe so but somewhere on the journey, beginning, middle, it went astray. We don’t know when but it went off course. It is sinking. Do the right and honorable thing, CJ. Step down, resign, retire – whatever. It’s a new day. A day for you CJ to take responsibility and then step down. This would demonstrate true humility.
Freedom Fighter…………………
Could the term you are looking for be…………….MORAL RELATIVISM??
N.S.L.B.
Fred, I agree with you 100%. Food for thought: Do you really, really think that if CJ were to step down that anything would change in SGM? My thought is that one of his “perfectly molded clone robots” would pick right back up where CJ left off. One of the most fascinating things about what I see here is that almost all of the stories in almost every one of the churches, by almost every one of the pastors in SGM is similar. The ideology is so deep rooted in anyone that rises to the top of the food chain in SGM that I believe nothing would change. Their theology is so engrained in their pastors that the only thing that would “change” is the guy’s name who is running the place! It would be like a store owner who retires and gives the business to his sons who have worked there, for their dad their whole adult lives. A sign would hang outside the store that says “under new management” but in reality, the sons would run the place like their dad did (maybe even worse). The only change would be superficial. As we all know in SGM, the successor to the pastor that retires or that moves on is usually one of their most devout followers of SGM/CJ’s teachings. That is why he is picked. Many of these pastors have been raised in the SGM “way” their whole lives and know nothing outside what they have learned, seen, experienced, and been taught in SGM/PC. What is unnatural to us, is perfectly natural to them. In my experience, the old pastor wineds up hanging around to mentor the new pastor in an “unofficial” role. The chain is never broken.
My thought would be that the only way SGM would “reform” would be to inject new, untainted blood into the leadership. I highly doubt that this will EVER happen.
The only true reform, I believe, will come from the disbanding of SGM, or when enough SGM people have their eyes open through web sites like this and SGM Survivors.
Again, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I am just saddened that the likelihood of what you said will never happen. CJ is just to prideful to ever step down. My heart is grieved for those still caught up in the SGM way…. blind to the slavery they have been subjected to in the name of God.
I have read many of your postings Fred, you truly have a heart for the saints.
Many Blessing Brother.
It would seem that the only place CJ is going, soon, is the airport to catch a plane to his next speaking engagement. His star continues to ascend – speaking with Tim Keller, Mark Driscoll, John Piper, John MacArthur, and the T4G crew … endorsing books … appearing in YouTube videos … He is probably insulated from the day-to-day of any of the SG churches by 2 or 3 layers; this gives him immunity from many of the charges of mismanagement at the local affiliates – there are apostles and regional directors, etc to take the blame for the local disasters. The Piper Cub finds himself in the company of the big jets and likes flying with them.
You know, Betrayed is correct. If CJ dropped out, he would be replaced with a SG hard-line clone. It would be like one Borg replacing another Borg – they are all of the same mind, and replacement units just rise up to replace the sons of guns that get killed – nothing would really change. The SG line is just like the Borg’s: Assimilate or Die. Lifetime indoctrination has it’s downside for sure. I believe that most SG pastors, including much of the laity, would ride the broco to the dirt, even to the point if SGM, under some crazy circumstances, began to devlove into a cult. No, I don’t believe SGM would devolve into one, but I’m making a point – there are just some personality types who don’t mind dictatorial leadership. Just as there are plenty of people in the US who wouldn’t care if the Constitution were destroyed, there are many in SGM, pastors and laity alike, who will love and defend their organization even to the point where it became a very bad place to be, much, much worse than it already is. I talked to many people at SGChes on my way out the door, and they pretty much all has the same opinion, that “well, I’m kinda sorry, perhaps, that that such and such may or may not have happened to so and so, but it hasn’t happened to me, so you can take you and yours and shove out…”. There are so many sober, intelligent people, at SGChes (and elsewhere in SGM) who continue to turn their heads and look the other way in the presence of darkness and shadows. These are the SAME personality types who would point their finger to your front door if the Constitution were burned and the jackboots came breaking down your front door. That’s the really scary part of it all, IMHO.
1) CJ’s not going anywhere.
2) There is no one in SGM who has CJ’s charisma, giving them the ability to ensure the loyalty that CJ enjoys, although Josh is being groomed. No way could he take over today.
Keepinstep,
I saw and heard Jesus being glorified, honored, and praised for the good work he has done in CJ’s daughter’s life as she was honored that sunday. I recognized the many good, godly, close relationships she enjoyed at CLC. I heard the testimonies of how she was a blessing to so many at CLC. I saw the godly example that she was in many areas of her life, including the way she honored her parents. It wasn’t the most dramatic of testimonies, but no less the mercy and grace of God was seen by me and most of those in attendance. You didn’t see any of this? I’m not the one with blinders on.
You have unjustly, wrongly, and very rudely judged the motives of CJ’s heart at that event. CJ is passionate, enthusiastic, and energitic in all that he does, first and foremost in his relationship with Jesus. And this extends to his wife and family. And to his church. And it spills out for all to see. He has served the Lord by helping litterally hundreds come to know Jesus as their savior, and to help them grow in their personal relationship with him and serve Him passionately. In light of this, it was his desire to honor God as he honored his family.
God has done a great work in and through the Mahaney family. I have seen it with my own eyes. You wouldn’t know it on this and the other blog. All that is seen here and all that is unfairly, publically reported are the imperfections and the unrighteous judgements.
Fred,
Re-read your June 25, 3:03 post. You have wrongly judged the hearts of the pastors and the entire congregation of CLC. It would have been better if you simply stated that we are not Christians. You and I have talked about the common bond we share in Jesus. There are about 2,800 of us at CLC who share that common bond with you. And out of the blue, you come out with a broad sledge hammer and condemn our relationship with the Lord with that post. Publicly. That was flat out wrong.
All who care to read,
Man-centered because of standing ovations? It couldn’t be that we wanted to give an enthusiastic greeting to someone? And thank God for the work of grace that is so evident? And for years of graciously serving the Lord? And for the way this person influenced so many to know Jesus and to grow in their relationship with him? This is what is in our hearts as we applaud. This is what I see happening. No blinders here. You are wrongly judging our hearts when you say we are man-centered. And you are flat out wrong. Jesus gets a standing ovation each and every sunday for more than a half hour. No one else even begins to come close.
If you all want to continue to wrongly judge our hearts at CLC and publically proclaim that we are legalistic, sin-sniffers, lack compassion and care, and are self-righteous, go right ahead. You are wrong. I can give you thirty years worth of testimony that is absolutely contrary to each of these claims. Many of you are making these claims of CLC without ever stepping foot in our building, or without ever talking with anyone in person who is a member. This is wrong. This does not honor God in any way. It will bring no reform. It will bring no healing.
Many/all of you have been hurt by something or someone at your SGM church. What about the attitude Jesus Had? Love your enemies, bless those who persecute you; if a man asks you for your coat, give him your hat as well, forgiveness, forebearance. Is this the attitude of you heart towards SGM?
Pardon me if I am mistaken, but didn’t 30years say he wasn’t posting here, anymore? Interesting that he just can’t let it go…
Jim, I think you must be right. CJ won’t leave, not unless there is someone like him to step in and keep things afloat. I don’t know him personally, but he strikes me as the kind of guy who truly believes in what he is doing, and won’t give that up easily. Many sincere men have worked sincerely hard to build up a sincere ministry, and have strayed away from the true focus of our lives – Jesus Christ. I am sincerely saddened for him.
Many of you are making these claims of CLC without ever stepping foot in our building, or without ever talking with anyone in person who is a member.
I believe that there have been many on this blog, on survivors, and on spiritual tyranny who can more than back up these “claims” and those of us in other sg churches have seen the “trickle down” through the years in our own meetings with the same exact “rainstorms” of on&on&on applause.
30years said:
All that is seen here and all that is unfairly, publicly reported are the imperfections and the unrighteous judgements.
I saw the words “judging” and “judgemental” 5 times in 30years blog. The Lord only knows how many times I was told those words by my pastors. Even when I brought them solid proof and put it before their eyes they still said I had judged. To judge is to point the accusatory finger at someone when you yourself are doing the same thing (Pharisees). I have not seen one account on these blogs that demonstrate that those writing them were doing to the pastors what was done to them. To judge is to have no evidence to support your claim. We, who write our stories here have deep wounds, deeper than you could ever imagine, and painful scars as evidence. Read the numerous blogs and their similarities. Are the countless stories and accounts by some many people all “made up?” Did two or three people get together and decide to log in under 50 different screen names and write false stories for 12 hours a day for the past two or three years? No my friend, no one is judging. We speak only the truth…
He has served the Lord by helping litterally hundreds come to know Jesus as their savior, and to help them grow in their personal relationship with him and serve Him passionately.
It is God who calls and it is He who sanctifies…..NOT CJ Mahaney or any other man!!
Give all the Glory to God…not to CJ my friend!
NO ONEI can tell me that this man does not crave glory from men…autograph sessions, planes, standing ovations….and yes, he and John Piper were even escorted off stage and out of the building at last years New Attitude by body guards.
What about the attitude Jesus Had? Love your enemies, bless those who persecute you; if a man asks you for your coat, give him your hat as well, forgiveness, forebearance. Is this the attitude of you heart towards SGM?
Are our brothers in Christ, our Leaders, and our Shepherds now our “enemies” and our “persecutors”…..Wow, that’s a new concept. I didn’t realize that I would ever be put in a position to identify these men in those terms!…. You said it, not me!
Betrayed, Miller, Quizzler, Canary, Newlywded, Jim, Ellie,
Thank you so much. You have all eloquently stated exactly what I believe, think, feel. It is so amazing to me that others can so clearly articulate exactly what I have seen and experienced and what has been revealed to me. It’s not my imagination. It is real. I will continue to ask CJ to step down. Would that really change things? No, it is too widespread but it would be a huge beginning. Again, I don’t believe that reform is what is needed. A total transformation, tearing down the foundation of SGM and starting over with Jesus Christ at the helm is what is called for.
30 years,
I am so sorry for you for you truly believe that your beloved SGM is great. It’s not. You have been deceived. It’s sad, but 30 years, you do have a choice – you can stay in a blinded state or you can allow the light of the Gospel to shine through your heart and mind, bringing forth truth. That’s really all I have to say to you. God bless you today and every day.
PS Thank you Betrayed!
PSS What about those missing messages? We now know that a purge has occurred within several SG churches. Folks this is big news and cannot be overlooked. The sheeples left behind are in grave danger….we must fall on our faces before God and cry out for His mercy and His grace to reveal more of what is hidden. Blow the trumpet!!!
Oh…. one last thing 30years, keep reading. Our God is a Sovereign God. It is no mistake that you, for whatever reason, are here reading these blogs.
God Bless my friend
30 -
“I saw and heard Jesus being glorified, honored, and praised for the good work he has done in CJ’s daughter’s life as she was honored that Sunday.”
Why Cj’s daughter? Was she the best example in the church of Gods work?
Enough for an hour or so?
Ok
Unfortunately I have seen the paychecks and payoff’s from PDI and SGM.
Tommy Hill is a great guy, if he only knew what Dick W.was asked to do to “protect”
the name of PDI/SGM.
The cat is out of the bag on CJ’s cover up of Pastoral abuse. been to Survivors lately?
Seems some details on the Tomczack debacle were left out from the announcements.
What did CJ say about a mans check book?
30years….
From what you’ve written, it’s obvious you still haven’t had the light come on. I pray that it will. Please try the exercise I suggested earlier.
BTW, it’s interesting you claim that I’ve misjudged Mahaney’s motive in making everyone watch the weep-fest. How do *you* know, any better than I, what his motive was?
PFR,
You wrote “Unfortunately I have seen the paychecks and payoff’s from PDI and SGM.
Tommy Hill is a great guy, if he only knew what Dick W.was asked to do to “protect”
the name of PDI/SGM. ”
If you could, please expand on the details of each of these thoughts. I am not aware of either … but I wouldn’t doubt it.
A question:
in 2002 (roughly) we were given a “covenant” to sign and submit and the leaders were keeping them on file, I believe. The one part I of it I remember most was the part where we agreed to abide by or approve of church discipline where needed.
Was it presented as a preventive move against lawsuits in your congregation?
At the time it was stated by the pastor and leaders in our (CO) SG church that the reason was that someone had tried to sue the church or SGM and that this signed “covenant” paper was insulation from being sued.
Interesting to me that this explanation of this paper was openly explained that way, and it wasn’t “gossip/slander” to represent it as a means of insurance against being sued, by the local leaders.
It occurs to me that a lawsuit would be the only thing that could get past all the “leaders” to get to CJ or remove him from the Borg but it has been minimized in a preemptive move of signing pre-approvals for church discipline.
Honestly I don’t wish CJ, Shank or anyone any ill, but in the name of Jesus and the love of God I wish the abuse would end. It is tragic that those who preach so much on receiving or loving correction would have such a disregard for it.
There are many layers between CJ and those of us who were mere members, or even ministry team leaders. BUT if the guy at the top has in fact put those other layers in place how can it NOT reflect on him if he leaves abusers in place? I was a CJ defender in the midst of abuse, because I didn’t want to see that HE had developed the system and those other men WERE his leaders! So if they are performing badly howcome he allows it? Ignorance is not an excuse here.
In Defense of “30 Years” … I’m still in a SGM church. It’s nowhere’s close to some of the churches that you all have been involved with but I’ve experienced and have seen lots of the controlling/humility issues. … What I want to say is that it is VERY POSSIBLE to be at a SGM church and NEVER run in to many of the issues that are talked about here on this site. I would venture to say that 60-75% of the people just follow along and never have an issue. Why? That’s for another time. I was like “30 Years” for a long time until some of these issues started happening to me and then to my friends. I didn’t understand it at first and obediently went down the SGM path … it wasn’t until I started laying scripture against SGM’s scripture (or their poor use of scripture) that I started to question things around me. For some unknown reason the Lord still has me at a SGM church. I continue to pray for the leaders of SGM and my pastors and ask that the Holy Spirit illuminate their souls so that they have a PERSONAL, DEEP encounter with the Lord where they begin to hear HIM and not CJ, the “apostles”, their church overseer, the guy leading the pastors college, etc. etc. etc..
“30 Years” may live the rest of his life at SGM and never run in to any of the issues that we have here. I pray he doesn’t! For him though our stories and these web sites are “against the SGM church”. I would have thought that too … until it happened to me.
A Note to 30 Years … I used to think that it was me in the way I felt about my church. Then when I found out that many other people in my church were feeling the same way I became suspicious. When I then found out that the issues we encountered we also happening throughout SGM then I KNEW that there were MAJOR problems with CJ and the leaders of SGM. They truly do need to repent and rethink church government (to stop the abuse), reteach pastors how to LOVE their flock versus ensuring that the flock obeys THEM and lead by example in humility and forgiveness (since they ARE the “leaders”). Hopefully this site and SGM Survivors will help lead them to this. I seriously doubt it but the Lord is much bigger than me and my lack of faith.
Mike -
Read up on Set Free’s Story, and Noels Story on the survivors site.
The perp in both accounts is the same person.
There is a money trail behind the perps actions that led to Dick W’s(PDI’s CFO) reasons for departure.
Noel and Set Free are not the only v’s with this perp.
Not everyone could be kept quiet through manipulation.
So where is payola in the NT CJ?
Defended –
There are three things that took place that led to the agreement you signed –
1 – Agreements backed with Biblical mediation became something that was recognized and upheld by the US courts in a case involving Promise keepers. Will have to get back to you on the citing.
2- There was a case that was settled in 1999 or 2000 that put a “non denominational” church in dire straights. Will come back to you on the citing for this as well.
3 – A PDI founding Pastors son had to create a trail of v’s and create an exposure that could destroy the name of PDI.
This also led to the reformation of the articles of incorporation for both CLC and SGM.
Ironically, the sex abuse laws changed in 2002 as well, creating a 25 year felony for the actions that were covered up. There were also some new laws that revised reporting as well.
I hope that sheds some light on all the shuffling and documents that flew up in 2002.
Cite 1
Specifically, in Encore Productions, Inc. v. PromiseKeepers, the Court noted that
Encore Productions, Inc. v. PromiseKeepers, 53 F.Supp.2d 1101, 1109-1110 (D. Colo 1999).
I always wondered why Dick left suddenly. I always saw him as a “class act” – plus, he’d had a full career in business (Sears HQs, wasn’t it?), so he had real-world experience.
So, why didn’t Dick get a half-hour of Sunday-morning prime time to tell his testimony, when he left CLC?
PFR:
Payola?….I don’t have to say that is a serious accusation. If you have evidence of financial impropriety, have you considered going to the authorities? I am not asking you to share any details here I am just wondering if this is something which needs to be taken to another level.
PFR, could you please be specific concerning the money trail? Was SGM’s involved in the other v’s (victims I assume), were there other cover-ups and were others offered payola and refused?
People need to know what is still being withheld and covered up within SGM. Thanks.
Yes! Moral relativism. That was it.
Fred:
I do not think that the details need to be shared here. This sounds like a serious legal matter. If it is true than it is not different than what the Roman Catholic church did with its own sexual abuse scandals and I would really encourge PFR to take this to the right people.
PFR, thanks for the history and compilation.
So it wasn’t the reformed theology that drove the name change?
Fred, formersgmer, go to ‘Set Free’s Story’ on sgmsurvivors.com and do the math. A guy named Larry T was the sr. pastor assigned to the church plant in Atlanta. We were at the sendoff at FCC (VA), sitting with a friend who worked for him in G’burg; several families from Ffx went with Larry to GA. Makes me sick. I was clueless, even at the official letter we received from CJ 6 mos. later. Remember that letter?
Mike said:
“What I want to say is that it is VERY POSSIBLE to be at a SGM church and NEVER run in to many of the issues that are talked about here on this site. I would venture to say that 60-75% of the people just follow along and never have an issue. ”
I would guess that you are right on this.
As people have indicated before, it is when you start to question things and don’t “tow” the company line that SGM Members see the darker side.
It’s along the lines of seeing the clothes on the emperor or at least not saying he doesn’t have clothes on keeps you “safe.” In other words, drink the “kool aid” and you are safe. Question or ask even using scripture in your questioning and you aren’t safe.
From all that I have read here and and SGM Survivors many of the SGM leaders are uncomfortable and even are threatened by those who question. Start to ask questions and you become a target for their abuse. This can include their “asking” you to leave w/o any type of Mathew 18 procedure. So much for the trying to work things out that “Peacemakers” pushes.
I am sure that this doesn’t explain why all abuse occurs but certainly explains a lot of it.
SGM since their existence has taught a extreme definition of what they consider “gossip” and “slander” and has served them well to keep a lot of their members in the dark about what abuse is going on to the “select” few that are abused.
I am sure that some of the abuse is leadership resorting to trying “protect” their business organization denomination association of churches. Since it would be hard for most of these men to make the same kind of living they make as SGM pastors/leaders either consciously or subconciously they get “desperate.”
Defended said:
“I was clueless, even at the official letter we received from CJ 6 mos. later. Remember that letter?”
Do you recall what the letter said or still have a copy? I am curious as to what is said.
Do you recall what the letter said or still have a copy? I am curious as to what is said.
oh for goodness’ sake, NO we don’t have a copy! lol.
But from my memory it said that Larry was in a 6-month reform program after leaving MD and that at the end of 6 months he thought he was finished with the current course of correction and the other leaders (CJ) disagreed. So they had to part company, or something like that.
We were in Ffx at the time; I assumed every member everywhere got one. (??)
The interesting and clueless part was that I thought I heard that it was from the experience with Larry that when Benny needed correction and had to step down they said that they wouldn’t put a 6-mos. timeframe on the correction process ever again. But if Benny or his kids were directly involved in any sexual abuse that’s a whole new shocker to me.
Anyone remember something similar or different?
As it keeps coming up on the blog, may I gently observe that the phrase is rendered “toe the line”, not “tow the line” ?
PFR, you state above:
“Read up on Set Free’s Story, and Noels Story on the survivors site. The perp in both accounts is the same person.”
I read both of these stories (Set Free’s story is at http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=843; Noel’s Story is at http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=276), and it doesn’t seem to me that the perp is the same person. Set Free says the molestor was the sr. pastor’s son, whereas Noel says the molestor in her story was the son of a friend of her’s; the friend was separated from her husband and was not identified as a pastor’s wife.
Am I missing something? What in the two stories leads you to say the molestor was the same person?
keepinstep said:
“As it keeps coming up on the blog, may I gently observe that the phrase is rendered “toe the line”, not “tow the line” ?”
Thanks for the correction.
Googled the two phrases and found this:
http://grammartips.homestead.com/toetheline.html
” So one who “toes the line” is one who does not allow his foot to stray over the line. In other words, one who does not stray beyond a rigidly defined boundary.”
Keep your toe somewhere vs tow an item like a car etc.
I am no theologian but I have read the bible inside and out. I believe the Lord has given me a firm understanding of His word.
Maybe someone who is more a “student” of theology can explain to me, in short, the focus and strong emphasis on indwelt sin by SGM. It seems that regardless of what you say or do, behind closed doors, these pastors keep reminding you of your sinner status.
I have yet to see redundant scripture in the New Testament that asks us to dwell on our indwelt sin as our greatest duty. On the contrary, our greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God and to love your neighbor. The message of love in repeated and emphasised and commanded by first and foremost Jesus himself, and then Paul, and the other writers of the New Testament. This focus on sin seems to have greater weight with the SGM pastors than in any other church I have ever seen. Shouldn’t we be rejoicing in the Lord instead of dwelling on how ”bad” we still are?
Is there some doctrine out there that SGM has latched on to that puts the greater weight on one’s sin rather than love? If so, how is a person supposed to grow in the Lord by applying this doctrine?
I suppose that maybe in some very odd way these pastors may earnestly believe that they are showing love by asking us to dwell on our indwelt sin.
This was one of my many “whys” when it came to SGM….. I have stopped asking why on the rest because there was no rational answer. I am still curious about this one though. Anyone have any idea? Doctrinal foundation? Biblical reference?
Just for a little background information – Larry T did not begin the Atlanta church plant. It was started by a pastor from the Orlando church a year or two earlier. Due to the fact that this pastor would not toe (thank you, keep in step and Steve!) the PDI line, he was put under a 6-month discipline process (or sabbatical, I believe was the way they couched it publically). Sounds familiar, huh? However, he was no dummy, having seen the PDI discipline pattern in action, and realized that this “sabbatical” would most likely cost him his church and his job. He refused to cooperate and it caused an ugly church split. Larry was sent down to pick up the pieces with those who chose to stay within PDI. Things were already a mess here in the ATL before Larry ever arrived.
Thought that might be interesting info to add to the discussion. Yet another example, allbeit an old one, of PDI/SGM mismanagement.
Betrayed -
The SG pastors that I have dealt with who talk about indwelling sin don’t quote much scripture. They are most influenced, it seems by the writings of the Puritan John Owen. My guess is that many SG pastors have a paraphrased, abridged version of Owen’s “Mortification of Sin”; some probably have Kapic and Taylor’s “Overcoming Sin & Temptation” which includes “Mortification of Sin”; a few may have the dense volume of Owen’s “Works” on this topic. Truth is, most pastors don’t read or quote much Owen (who is quite good when read broadly to maintain balance). They quote other pastors who may or may not have read Owen … and ignore the whole counsel of God … and therein lies the dilemma.
NW
Defended said:
“oh for goodness’ sake, NO we don’t have a copy! lol.
But from my memory it said that Larry was in a 6-month reform program after leaving MD and that at the end of 6 months he thought he was finished with the current course of correction and the other leaders (CJ) disagreed. So they had to part company, or something like that.”
So the handout didn’t say much more than this about Tomczak? I have read where Tomczak wrote in his book Reckless Abandon:
“Tomczak declared that this time “…seemed like an unbelievable nightmare” during which he, his wife Doris, and their son Justin “were threatened in various ways if we did not cooperate with the ministry that we were leaving… A letter was circulated in an attempt to discredit me and to distort the events surrounding my departure. Our own family members were divided.”
My understanding is that Tomczak first left CLC and moved for a short time period to what at the time was the Fairfax PDI Church. He then moved to Atlanta to help pick up the pieces after the founding pastor of the Atlanta PDI Church left PDI.
Tomczak moved from CLC to Fairfax in the approximate 92/93 time frame.
It is interesting that Tomczak first went down there to heal a church split and then lead one a few years later (approx 97).
Does anyone know the date Tomczak move from Fairfax to Atlanta?
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