The following was sent to me by a friend of Chesapeake. I echo the author’s request to “please fill in details or make changes as you see fit”, as everything I know about Chesapeake is new to me, as the flood of emails regarded Chesapeake began just before Christmas. The post below is not a definitive statement of fact from your host, but seems to verify much of what I’ve been told. Again, I invite you to fill in the blanks.
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A very interesting picture begins to emerge as we take a closer look at the history of Sovereign Grace Church, Chesapeake, VA. For some, it may seem like a picture of change, chaos, and confusion. For others, it’s just part of the well known verbiage, “change is here to stay”. The church has met in many locations including a home, a motel, several schools and now sits at the corner of Centerville Turnpike and Elbow Road. It has been known by several different names including The Harbor, Southside, and currently, Sovereign Grace Church. Taking a closer look, one would have no idea that this church began as a more charismatic church because the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit are hardly noticeable today. In fact the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit was changed in 2002 by SGM and the congregation in Chesapeake was never told. Many other changes in doctrine have taken place since SGM turned in a reformed direction and away from the charismatic.
Several questions emerge as we take a closer look. Is it possible that SGCC is a microcosm; a representative of SGM? Are we actually looking through an open window into the inner workings of SGM? Who was responsible for and actually made the decisions that have so impacted this church? Who determined that pastors were gifted and called by God for ministry and then determined that these pastors really weren’t? For some of you reading this, you have more information and maybe corrections to this closer look. Please fill in details or make changes as you see fit…..
*The Beginning: Steve Shank plants the church in VA. Beach/Chesapeake in 1987 and brings a team from the Ohio church including David Bendenilli and Pete Payne who become pastors.
*1997: Steve Shank, Dave Bendenilli, and Pete Payne leave VA. Beach/Chesapeake to plant a church in Denver leaving only 1 pastor, John Butler behind. Chris DeLogos goes to the Pastors’ College (PC) and becomes a pastor in Denver. A very large part of the Chesapeake church population go on this church plant leaving behind a grieving congregation.
*A decision is made by SGM that they have made a mistake and will never again take so many of the pastors from 1 church to plant another church.
* Eric Hughes, Brian Wasko, Tim Hulme, and Brett Campbell are brought on as pastors and join John Butler in Chesapeake.
* After several years, Brian Wasko is forced to step down as it is determined that he is really not gifted to be a pastor after all. This happens even though Wasko has a pastor’s heart of love and compassion, is loved by the people, and has an effective, vibrant and Spirit led youth ministry. The congregation grieves over this loss.
* Keith Breault is sent to the PC and becomes a Chesapeake pastor.
* Aaron Anderson and Ray Cagle are sent from Chesapeake to the PC and brought back as pastors on staff.
* John Butler leaves SGC Chesapeake and becomes sr. pastor of the struggling Atlanta church. Aaron Anderson goes to Atlanta with Butler.
*Ray Cagle was forced to step down for lack of pastoral giftings. This man who holds a counseling degree and has a pastor’s heart of love and compassion would have been an excellent addition and very needed man for this church.
*Keith Breault is named sr. pastor of Chesapeake church and takes over from Butler.
*Trevor Haynes who had previously pastored in 2 SGM churches and who had been a friend of Breault’s in the PC, leaves PA church to pastor in Chesapeake.
* Chad Rogers is sent to PC from Chesapeake then becomes a pastor in the Atlanta church.
*Eric Hughes basically runs the church for 1 ½ years due to Keith Breault’s illness, family illness, and Father’s death.
*Eric Hughes becomes Executive Pastor.
*John Butler steps down as sr. pastor of the Atlanta church and Aaron Anderson becomes sr. pastor.
* Chris Mangold is sent to PC and then added to Chesapeake pastoral staff.
*Tim Hulme who had been an effective and loved pastor for 10 years was forced to step down after it was decided that he was not called and did not have pastoral giftings. Hulme was the pastor most gifted in evangelism and responsible for evangelism outreaches such as Alpha. This was a total surprise to the congregation and totally unexpected.
*After going to the PC, Kirk Alexander joins the Chesapeake pastoral staff with an emphasis on evangelism.
*After pastoring for over 11 years, Eric Hughes is sent to the PC on short notice with definite plans to plant a church, possibly in Charlottesville, VA.
*Keith Breault and pastors in Chesapeake plan to announce new doctrine on separation to the congregation after imposing this doctrine on 3 women in the church and teaching it in the New Members’ class. Two of the women had quietly left the church under the threat of church discipline in the summer of ‘08.
*”Esther” asks for help from Gene Emerson and other apostolic leaders including CJ to no avail.
*The “3” couples become more actively involved in “Esther’s” case.
* “Esther” is threatened with church discipline. Esther leaves the church and sends her withdrawal letter to the Chesapeake pastors as well as CJ and other apostles.
*November 9, 2008 The 3 couples meet with Keith Breault and Brett Campbell. All pastors were asked to come.
*Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, Trevor Haynes, and Chris Mangold apologize to “Esther” at a meeting of approximately 50 people (not the entire membership) for abusive counseling and neglect.
*December 16, 2008 The 3 couples meet with pastors again after hearing nothing from the pastors regarding the issues previously brought forth. The 3 couples recommend that Keith Breault, Brett Campbell and Trevor Haynes step down as pastors. Gene Emerson and finance team attend this meeting.
* December 20, 2008 A hastily-organized meeting was called by Gene Emerson and the SGCC pastors with approximately 60 members of the church. At this meeting the three couples were admonished and had pseudo-church discipline administered to them (even though they were not in attendance). Two of those admonished were fired from care group leadership.
*January 21, 2009 Keith Breault and his team apologize to the “3 couples” for some of the issues that they brought forward in the previous meetings.
*January 25, 2009 Family Meeting called. Keith Breault reads a letter of apology to the congregation for some of the issues brought forward by the “3 couples”. Keith Breault announces that Eric Hughes is at the meeting because Breault asked him to come down from the PC to lead worship for the meeting.
*Folks begin leaving Sovereign Grace Church in Chesapeake.
*January 25, 2009 in Denver during the Sunday morning meeting, Steve Shank surprisingly announces that David Bendenelli is retiring. (During the fall of 08, Chris DeLogos suddenly and totally unexpected stepped down as pastor in Denver and headed to Richmond and Kingsway Community Church under Gene Emerson.)
*January 25, 2009 in Gilbert, Arizona, the young sr. pastor apologizes to the congregation.
*March 29, 2009 in Chesapeake, Keith Breault and Eric Hughes announce that Hughes will become sr. pastor of Chesapeake and Breault will go to Kingsway Community Church under Gene Emerson for a church planting internship. Breault states that this change has nothing to do with the trials and issues of the last months.
** The term “forced to step down” has been used in this chronological history but the word fired is probably a more accurate word to describe the situations. There was never any prior warning or discussion within the church body before these decisions were made, announced, and the men removed from pastoral leadership. The question again: who was making these decisions that led to confusion, chaos and destruction within this church?
Maybe, just maybe, now is the time for healing and restoration and the time for God to be glorified through His Body. A new sr. pastor who is a very godly and extremely gifted pastor, is not enough to “fix” this church, however. Restoration will not happen unless much badly needed reform takes place within SGM as a whole. There must be a total overhaul in the polity of SGM and let’s face the truth: SGM needs a new heart, a heart of love for Jesus Christ and for His people. Sovereign Grace Church of Chesapeake belongs to God and no man or movement. God will not be mocked!
April 4th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
The Holy Spirit inspired me with a verse as soon as I finished reading this post.
“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
What a contrast to SGM’s motto “Change is here to stay.” The constant change that occurs in Sovereign Grace Ministries is a clear indication to me that this “family of churches” is NOT operating according to God’s will.
April 4th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Wow. It is interesting to see everything put together like this. It’s so sad to see how many pastors were “retired/fired” for lack of gifting. You would think with all of the care they take in selecting men to go to the PC and then the 9 months there, that they would be able to figure out if they were adaquately gifted and called.
I don’t get what the Gilbert apology has to do with the Chesapeake timeline though…
April 4th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Wanda,
How’Dee,
You said:
“The constant change that occurs in Sovereign Grace Ministries is a clear indication to me that this “family of churches” is NOT operating according to God’s will.”
Doze dat mean they are “Coin” operated now?
Or is it juz “batteries not included” ? >snicker<
Hahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 5th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Wow. Very helpful and concise.
This church organization sounds like IBM (which used to mean “I’ve been moved”, because IBM would move its people/managers around the country on a regular basis). SGM looks/acts more like a cooperation than a church.
April 5th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Watching Closer: I’m not sure what Gilbert Ariz. had to do with Chesapeake either but the fact that 3 SGM meetings all occurred on Jan. 25th and were each very significant was just too much of a “coincidence” not to mention. From what I have heard the Gilbert, Ariz. apology sounded an awful lot like the Chesapeake apology.
April 5th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hey ya’ll,
I just thought I would stop over for a visit.
My buddy is doing well and ready to move on, Praise God!
I appreciate seeing the pieces fitting together. And from an outsider, it looks like a puzzle piece with the 25th could be mentioned. . . The Gilbert church is Steve Shank’s home church. Which means that Steve Shank’s office is in the office suite with the Gilbert Pastors. Ya’ll think Steve Shank is involved in any decisions in Gilbert on a winter’s day?
Well, when my buddy told me that Steve wasn’t at theirFamily Meeting in Gilbert in February, well, I kinda started putting some pieces together too. It’s not the Twilight Zone anymore, it’s the Wizard of Oz. And the man behind the curtain deal is real.
April 5th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Cowboy,
How’dee Partner!
Great post!
Yous said:
“Well, when my buddy told me that Steve wasn’t at their Family Meeting in Gilbert in February, well, I kinda started putting some pieces together too. It’s not the Twilight Zone anymore, it’s the Wizard of Oz. And the man behind the curtain deal is real.”
***
I’ze hears dat dag blast’ed toon again… he he
“Because, Because, Because, Because, Because!”…
“The wonderful things he does!”… >snicker<
dat da da da da da da…
Ahem… Not!
Hahahahahahahaha!!!
In a little,
Sopy
April 6th, 2009 at 3:46 am
And what exactly is an Executive Pastor anyway? (Referring to Eric Hughes???)
April 6th, 2009 at 4:14 am
Greener:
The title “Executive Pastor” means that the person is responsible for the oversight of the day to day operations of the church (both pastorally and administratively) so that the senior pastor is free to focus on sermon preparation and the overall strategic direction of the church. Think of the EP as the chief operating officer of the church.
I have seen other large churches use this term so it is not unique to SGM.
April 6th, 2009 at 7:02 am
Great to see “the church” adopt business models while stating, “The Scriptures are the authoritative and normative rule and guide of all Christian life, practice, and doctrine. They are totally sufficient and must not be added to, superseded, or changed by later tradition, extra-biblical revelation, or worldly wisdom.”
April 6th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
*Keith Breault and pastors in Chesapeake plan to announce new doctrine on separation to the congregation after imposing this doctrine on 3 women in the church and teaching it in the New Members’ class.
What was the new doctrine?
April 6th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
I seem to remember it being reported, that they (the pastors) told these women that they were not to separate from their husbands (physically), even in the face of physical and verbal abuse, and must continue to submit to their husbands authority (even though they were clearly abusing their authority) and continue living under the same roof with their abusive husbands. I believe young children were also in these families and had also been threatened physically by their fathers.
The women were also counseled that they would fall under church discipline if they chose separation and would receive no support from the church and it’s pastors.
Please feel free to correct the details if I’ve not remembered them correctly.
peace-mm
April 6th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
That’s about it, MM.:/
April 6th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Must be a pendulum swing over at CLC. I know of a woman who has received Pastoral “blessings” with her divorce. No attempts at reconciliation. Even helped with her finances. Guess it depends on who you are , and what the claim is.
April 7th, 2009 at 6:35 am
music man said:
“I seem to remember it being reported, that they (the pastors) told these women that they were not to separate from their husbands (physically), even in the face of physical and verbal abuse, and must continue to submit to their husbands authority (even though they were clearly abusing their authority) and continue living under the same roof with their abusive husbands. I believe young children were also in these families and had also been threatened physically by their fathers.”
I am sure that the (new) leadership of SGM Chesapeake will boldly stand up and admit how wrong they were in the past with what they did.
Unfortunately I am reasonably sure that the leadership will do no such thing. They will change their policty but refuce to admit that what they have done in the past was wrong. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
PFR–
In a more ‘normal’ church, there would be pastoral acceptance in the case of adultery. Was that the case in the CLC situation?
How absurd to force a woman to stay in an unsafe home. Would CJ and the other apostle/pope/cardinals force their daughters to do the same?
But, and far more tragically, why would a woman ‘obey’ her pastor in this situation. While you are in the bubble, it probably seems normal to do so, but believe me, that is bizarre.
Sisters in Christ, if you or your children are unsafe in your home, leave it or get a restraining order against your husband. Your pastors are great for counsel, but they are not despots to be obeyed blindly.
Consult a trained counselor who will hold out truth to you–someone who is a Jesus follower but also is trained to counsel.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:49 am
RT said at
“Sisters in Christ, if you or your children are unsafe in your home, leave it or get a restraining order against your husband. Your pastors are great for counsel, but they are not despots to be obeyed blindly.”
This issue (among several others) was at the heart of the recent Chesapeake “trial”. Thankfully, this new doctrine was abandoned (at least for now) and the pastors have acknowledged their error. This issue was also addressed in the “Get-Well Plan” put forth in an effort to address some of the critical issues facing the Chesapeake church.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am
RT-
The guy had issues with church, the wife did not. The Pastors intervened
with the “Husband is not doing well” and questioned his salvation based on his lack of desire for CLC. Looks like the Pastors got “Too” involved with asking for reports from the wife in regard to the husband. Encouraged the wife to separate the finances and make it known that in a choice between the church, or the marriage, “God (the church)” would come first. Went downhill in a very bad way from there.
April 7th, 2009 at 11:46 am
It is too sad that pastors would try to force a woman and her children to stay in a physically abusive situation, by using “God” as the enforcer. Even our civil laws are more compassionate than this!
April 7th, 2009 at 11:53 am
The situation at CLC is an abomination. The pastors influence over the wife apparently did not include an encouragement to keep this quiet. She let the genie out of the bottle to the extent that the details have made it to my inbox.
Gentlemen, when all is said and done in this case, I’m going to make you famous.
I promise.
CJ, your pastors in your home church appear to have destroyed a marriage. You can stop this.
You know my number…
April 7th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
It’s never been clear what was motivating the SGCC pastors to force women and children to stay in abusive marriages and homes. They reinterpreted Scripture, specifically 1 Corinthians 7:10 and determined that the word separation means the same thing as divorce. Therefore, they said that Scripture never allows for separation. It is clear in this passage that Paul is encouraging women not to separate but he says “if she does…” They believed that the women would be relieved of their suffering at such time that God removed the abusive husband from the home. Until such time as this happened (and only by God’s hand) the wife and children were to remain in the home with the abusive husband. Remember Esther’s story. Here was a woman who had lived in a very sad and tragic marriage for over 30 years and continued to love her husband. Things had gotten so bad that her 12 year old son was crying to her, “Mom, you’ve got to do something. I am in danger!” And yet, when she told the pastors that she must separate, they threatened her with church discipline.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I grew up in the Mormon church–and marriage was more than holy–it was your ticket to your own planet! But it was not holy when one spouse wanted to leave the church: divorce is quite frequent, with the moms (usually the ones staying with the church and getting all the sympathy, ‘ooohhhhhh, he is leaving THE CHURCH? We never really liked him anyway….’) getting the kids and getting remarried to a properly devout Mormon quickly.
Adultery can be forgiven in a cult.
But a break with the cult is unforgiveable treason and the sinner must be expelled, no matter what the Bible/Book of Mormon says about marriage.
Blecch. Thanks for the information, Scott et al.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Fred–your post cuts to the heart of the problem: polity.
In another church, one can appeal to the next higher level to avoid church discipline. there is no where to go in SGM.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Jim said: Gentlemen, when all is said and done in this case, I’m going to make you famous. I promise.
The terrible truths and accounts of reprehensible behaviors and actions concerning SGM must come out. Matthew 10:26 says, “Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” God is the one uncovering what has been hidden. This is His work and He is choosing to use men and women such as we find here on this blog to be His hands and feet.
There are many of you reading this blog who have stories of your own to tell. People need to hear what you have to say because the more that is uncovered, the greater the chances for reform in the movement. Hopefully, this will stop the abuses and fewer people will be hurt and led astray.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
RT, Esther called upon Gene Ermerson, CJ, Dave Harvey, Steve Shank for help but they would not get involved.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Right–that is because no laypeople (you know, those schlubs in the pews, those unwashed untrained masses of flesh) in SGM are ever involved in elder selection or pastor selection, and there is no group of people that holds CJ accountable.
Stinks.
Fred is right. Stop hiding, you guys. Take this chance to TRULY speak the truth, in love. Speaking the truth in love doesn’t mean correcting someone about their brastraps or their kids’ iPods.
The only time Jesus threw stuff around is when hypocrits and money sellers were hurting the Church, the Bride, the People of God. He knelt beside the adulterous woman, after sending her attackers away, and urged her to go and sin no more.
April 7th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Fred-if we do anything well, it’s exposure. I’m currently sitting on stories from across the country, waiting on documentation or further verification, or hoping that situations end in a God honoring fashion. There’s other situations in which I need to protect the source, as the data could easily be traced back to an individual. What will eventually happen in many of these cases is that the people involved will decide that they have nothing left to lose, or, as in the case of the Chesapeake “three couples”, the participants will choose to fear God rather than man. I say all of that to say, there is more to come, unfortunately. The steps that some pastors take to “protect the church” are clearly measures to protect their butts. Fortunately, this tactic will backfire on many of them.
I’d encourage these gentlemen to study Watergate, in which the cover up turned out to have far greater consequences than the original crime.
Some who give “oversight” in SGM are so good at saying, “oh my goodness, I’m so sorry, I had no idea.” A good portion of the sheep are tired of this response, as it is THE JOB these gentlemen to know what’s going on in the lives and churches of those they give “oversight” to.
Of course, we could define oversight in two ways….
April 7th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Does one of those ways start with a “C” and end with a “YA?”
Well, comfort yourself, SGM. Maybe a really cool movie will be made about SGMgate one day.
April 7th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Jim-
I’m glad in one sense that these stories are coming to light-they need to-indeed, scripture promises that they will be revealed.
What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God .
I knew many before they were Christians or when they were backslidden and living with their girlfriends. Now it seems they’ve turned from the grace they were given and are legalistic overlords-it breaks my heart that these dear people are hurting others and forgetting the golden rule….
If you were saved in Young Life…remeber and return to the grace they gave you in Jesus. Laugh again, live again…
If you were saved in college by Campus Crusade, Inter Varsity, or another college ministry….remember, and return to the Jesus who washed away your sins and stop lording it over others.
If you were backslidden, and a Christian friend showed you the love of God, despite your condition…remember and return to the unconditional love you were shown.
Repent….and be free again to love God and others without fear, without condemnation, without all the image building and self focused worship that has ensnared you. Repent…the love of the Father is still there for you.
April 7th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Musicman:
Well said; Repentance embraced by returning to one’s first love.
Thank you.
~jw
April 7th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God .
We know of some old friends that are on staff. They have seven children. The risk involved in not “devoting” themselves to SGM would be, well, a shanking. It would take much courage and faith to disagree with the direction of SGM for couples like this, whose very livelihood has depended on the organization for so many years. I suppose it is possible to enter the secular work place but, these days, how feesable would that be?
Some of the bonds that hold people in SGM are financial…
April 7th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Pk-
Yes-return to your first love…..
Canary-
I hear you-especially if you have a family to provide for-the stakes become quite high.
But I wonder if 20 years from now, when the kids are grown, what will their family relations look like? Will their devotion to SG and the emotional train wrecks that they leave in their wake because of it-will it be worth all the accolades and job security that they have today? I really doubt it…It’s not a dress rehearsal folks. A few more years and those kids are grown. I just ache to think of the heartbreak that they will reap if they keep down this path of following man-made laws that nullify the Love of God.
I’d rather work at McDonalds selling fast food and squeezing into a tiny town home with my family than living in Stepford….
I’m starting to ramble-but my heart does ache for these folks. To quote Paul “You were running a good race-who cut in on you?”
peace-mm
April 7th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Musicman–excellent. Why do we lose our wonder as we “grow?” Is this what Jesus meant when he warned us to be like children?
It is scary to be on staff–all of a sudden, your ‘daily bread’ is connected to your place of worship, and it all becomes a tangle: you forget who is really supplying the bread each day.
April 7th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
It is scary to be on staff–all of a sudden, your ‘daily bread’ is connected to your place of worship, and it all becomes a tangle: you forget who is really supplying the bread each day.
I imagine it would be very scary. No sense of “job security” if you are a paid leader. Today, you have the gift to lead. Tomorrow, you might not…
April 7th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
MusicMan said: I’m glad in one sense that these stories are coming to light-they need to-indeed, scripture promises that they will be revealed. What makes me sad, is so many of my friends are on staff at these churches and it kills me to even believe that they come this far in devotion to SGM over the God.
Yes it is so very sad that so many of our friends are on staff, however and this is a big however. When we consider that real, live human beings; men, women and children; have been and are being abused by some of these very same friends on staff within SGM, then our emotions must change from one of sadness for our friends on staff to sadness and righteous anger over our friends in the flock who have been abused and led astray. I have great love for my former pastors and I am truly sad that they have gotten so far off track and are in such great bondage. I am truly sorry that Keith Breault’s actions and lack of leadership caused him to lose his position as sr. pastor of SGCC. Again, however: I truly believed that my pastors were godly men. I trusted them with my very life. Then I found out that these very men who were my friends were abusing and misleading my friends in the flock. I found out that they are not godly men and they cannot be trusted. My words sound strong to many of you but there is much at stake here. If this had all happened in just one church, then we would say, oh, ok. Change the pastoral staff and all will be well. But no. These actions are happening in SGM churches all over the country. The problem begins at the top and flows down the chain of command. The top must be fixed. Too many lives have been badly damaged, too many marriages have been destroyed, too many are iving lives of defeat rather than victory because of a distorted Gospel…… yes, all of it is so very sad!
Our God reigns and He is bringing forth healing, restoration, and redemption.
He is doing this but the question remains: will it be within the walls of SGM or outside the walls?
PS To the folks in Chesapeake: when is Gene Emerson coming to report back on his investigation of the pastors? Word has it that he promised an investigation.
April 7th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Fred-
I agree…my heart goes out first to those who have been abused. I’m sorry if I seemed to minimize this by my posts.
peace-mm
April 8th, 2009 at 8:38 am
When we left PDI OR SGM, it was my marriage or the church. I knew that if I documented against my husband I could have gotten him kicked out of the house. Document, document, document we were told——-against any one that needed correction and would not submit to authority.
If you weren’t buying into everything that was spoken from the front, then you weren’t trusted or even welcomed. And I heard that spoken by a senior pastor from the fairfax church when a lady who didn’t homeschool, said she wasn’t going to since she had to work to make ends meet, she was told she should find another church where she felt more comfortable. I did not attend that church, just heard that tape of the sermon that day because I didn’t believe the senior pastor would say that—but he did.
I decided that I would trust God for my marriage and family, and not the church or the leaders. Plus HE told me to come out of there, so eventually I did. I do not regret it.
God is the only One we can rely on, Who is faithful, and Who will never let us down. Once we learn that then things seem to fall into place. And I think that’s the message He tries to teach us if we are willing to learn-that HE is more than enough for us.
April 8th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Old-Timer-
That mentality still prevails. It is a shame that SGM would put their desire for reputation, and devotion to the “Church” over a marriage. To profess to be men of God, while systematically driving a wedge between a husband and wife is beyond reprehensible.
Matthew 19:6
So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
April 8th, 2009 at 8:56 am
Does anyone know what happened to Scott Hawkins from the Sarasota church? He left our church New life Community in FL to go to pastors college and then was given Sarasota church….He stepped down according to what someone told me but I have no details…His wife was a friend of my daughters in high school and we are trying to find her…….
April 8th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Although I posted this in another area, I thought I better post it here, just so you know things will definitely be getting better following this conference.
Not to worry. Everything will be fixed, following “The pastor’s Conference: :-)
Sovereign Grace Pastors Conference
(formerly the Leadership Conference)
General-Session Theme
The Pastor’s Priorities
General-Session Speakers
Monday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Charge
Tuesday morning
Seminars
Tuesday evening
Jeff Purswell: The Pastor’s Teaching
Wednesday morning
Dave Harvey: The Pastor’s Mission
Jared Mellinger: The Pastor’s Legacy
Wednesday evening
C.J. Mahaney: The Pastor’s Leadership
April 8th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Musicman: We are definitely on the same page!
April 8th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Martie: Scott was ‘encouraged’ to come to the realization that he shouldn’t be Pastor. They are still living in Bradenton.
April 8th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Still-
I think this is your first visit? If so, welcome!
I’ve already written a Bradenton post-just waiting for the right time to post.
April 10th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Wow. I came across this site because I was doing a Google search on a childhood friend, Keith Breault. I haven’t seen or spoken to him since the mid-80’s, and I’m not even sure if this is the same person, but the picture looks like it could be him. Our fathers were stationed together in the AF. Again, I don’t know if this is the same Keith.
I grew up Catholic, however I never felt a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Thankfully I came across a non-denominational Christian church which put God at the center of my life. Since God has become that focal point, I was extremely excited to see Keith could possibly be a pastor. After reading these posts, however, I’m not so excited anymore.
I did want to add my two-cents on one thing, though.
Canary said: We know of some old friends that are on staff. They have seven children. The risk involved in not “devoting” themselves to SGM would be, well, a shanking. It would take much courage and faith to disagree with the direction of SGM for couples like this, whose very livelihood has depended on the organization for so many years. I suppose it is possible to enter the secular work place but, these days, how feesable would that be?
Some of the bonds that hold people in SGM are financial…
God does not require a strong economy to take care of His faithful children–I am living proof of that. I have been laid of twice within the past 16 months, and both times God has proven Himself faithful. I have a family of three (with another on the way) and my wife doesn’t work. We continued to tithe off my severance settlements, the few unemployment checks I received, and even made significant offerings when led by the Holy Spirit. We didn’t have to put anything on credit or take out any loans. Both times I received new jobs before my finances ran out, and both times my income increased. Although I couldn’t see His plan, I followed His will, remained faithful to Him, and held on to His promises. He tells us in Jeremiah 29:11:
“For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
Hopefully your friends can get out of the boat and trust God, if that’s the direction He is leading them.
God bless.
April 10th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
VLTORN,
Good words. Thank you!
April 10th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Thank you VLTORN for the excellent words of Truth! Truth is always so encouraging. I am sure that you are very disappointed in all that you have read here. We here at the Refuge are very disappointed in all that has happened as well but we know that our REDEEMER LIVES! We know that He is working all things for good and we continue praying for the leaders, pastors, and members of SGM. God is revealing much that has been hidden and He is doing a good work! It has been a painful work but it is already bearing much good fruit. Continue to pray for your old friend Keith. It probably is the same Keith Breault because his father was in the AF.
Canary, I was getting worried about you cause I hadn’t seen your name on here for awhile. Hope you are doing well.
April 11th, 2009 at 1:17 am
Thank you Still … I will look them up in Bradenton…. Does it appear that several pastors have been asked to step down lately? I have been out of the loop of happenings at SGM for about 3 years…. I can’t say I miss it….
April 11th, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Just catching up on the threads – you missed a few big points from the early history of the church –
1991 (I think) - Mike Curtis decides to “step out of day to day leadership of the youth group” and Brian Wasko placed in charge
and the biggie:
1993 (I think) Bob Hughes (Eric Hughes’s Dad), “decides” to “go model the kingdom of God by starting his own business”, Dave Bendinelli becomes Pastor
April 11th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Fred,
Thanks for missing me! I’m still checking in from time to time, but have been pretty busy, and struggling with some health issues. I’m still reading, though!
April 13th, 2009 at 9:03 am
Canary, hope you are feeling better and that it is not anything serious. Love you.
April 13th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Thanks, Fred. Nothing serious, just chronic. Happy Easter! It snowed here on our Easter, all day long. We got five or six inches. Brrrrr…..
I hope everyone had a wonderful (and warmer) Easter Sunday.
April 13th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
The current set of pastors at SGChes are incompetent. Don’t expect anything good to come from those guys. They couldn’t make good even if they wanted to, because they’re clueless. And why are they clueless ? Like I started out, they’re incompetent as pastors. They’re not well trained, not committed to God, and are enslaved to some very bad SGM politics. They’re like bad or corrupt politicians scrambling to keep their jobs, and nothing more. Lots of people still like them, but only because they like them, not because they’re good pastors.
April 14th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Millertime–
So good to hear from you!
I have heard many good reports of pastors in SGM who love God intensely, and are committed to their flock, committed to teaching and training them up to fullness in Christ. I’d have to disagree with your blanket statement about them not being committed to God.
I definitely agree with you that they are under-trained, that’s for sure. I think they are probably clueless to some extent, too, since they live in the bubble to such an extent that they have little idea what goes on in the rest of Christendom.
April 14th, 2009 at 9:00 am
Freedom,
For clarification purposes, Bob Hughes stepped down because he wanted to be more Dad than Pastor. He didnt feel called to be a pastor and felt like he needed to be home and with his family. Integrity happened a few years later as he bought the business from his son.
Just FYI
April 14th, 2009 at 9:46 am
I have to agree with RT that we cannot make a blanket statment like, all SGM Pastors are not comitted to God. We cannot know their hearts like that.
April 14th, 2009 at 10:04 am
Been Gone for a while and trying to catch up!
Millertime said: The current set of pastors at SGChes are incompetent. Don’t expect anything good to come from those guys. This is both correct and incorrect. Yes, I believe they are incompetant; however, I wouldn’t go so far as to say, don’t expect anything good to come from these guys. I believe they do have genuine hearts, but they have been corrupted by poor SGM policy. In Oz, When the Wizard was accused by Dorothy of being a very bad man, he answered, “No, I’m not a bad man, I’m a very good man, I’m just a bad wizard!” That is how I see most of these men. Keith Breault, for example, I believe, is a good man, as is Eric Hughes, and others. I believe, though, they have been so blinded by SGM indctrination, that they are just poor pastors, and need to come to this realization and step aside. (This characterzation being based on their handling of many of the situations at SGCChes).
April 14th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Friends,
I didn’t say all SGM pastors are poorly trained and not committed to God, I said SGChes pastors were poorly trained and not committed to God. Yes, I think they are committed, but not necessarily to God, because of all the screw ups for years. If a pastor is hearing from God, he’s not going to consistently and predictably hurt so many people over the course of a decade, like has been going on at SGChes for many years. And there’s still plenty disfunction and abuse still under the covers, going way back for years, that hasn’t been published. If these guys were committed to God, they wouldn’t choose to do evil when a clear path of good was available to them. So that’s why I say the SGChes pastors are not committed to God. And given the problems up the food chain in SGM in general, I’d say these two characteristics are not exclusive to SGChes.
April 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
I have to agree with both Miller and Greener’s posts. The Chesapeake pastors were poorly trained but more than that, they have not walked in a manner worthy of the Gospel. Somehow, they got way off the track of serving God first, worshipping Him, and following Holy Spirit. They also lost track of who they are in Christ. They are not God, nor do they stand in place of God in the congregation’s lives. They lost their heart for God and for His people.
If you discussed this with Chesapeake’s pastors, they would say that of course they were/are committed to God. As God revealed circumstances and situations in the Chesapeake church, a pattern began to emerge that they had in fact lost sight of God and lost sight of the Gospel. It seemed as though their hearts had become very hard because of legalism and their own sin. It also appeared that these pastors actually replaced God with CJ, et al, SG Ministries as a whole and with their own agendas. Of course we cannot judge their hearts, only God can judge hearts but we can judge the fruit. There is much evidence of bad fruit coming from SG Chesapeake as well as other SG churches.
April 14th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Mark of the lion – yes, I forgot about that ”be a better dad” spin put on it, but the “model the kingdon of god in the business world” was out there too at the time – I didn’t even mention the business or how the business was aquired. I believe the term used on this board would be “shanked” as shank was sr pastor at the time.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Actually Bob “bought” Integrity the same year that he “resigned” from being a pastor, both in 1993. From what I remember he stepped down from his pastoral role because he wanted to be more effective for the gospel, he didn’t like being behind a desk.
I was wondering when Integrity Auto Specialists and it’s web would come into the Chesapeake conversation.
April 15th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Long Time, Would you explain what you mean about the web of Integrity Auto Specialists and how it plays into this whole Chesapeake deal? Thanks. It would be helpful.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Integrity plays only into the Chesapeake deal because the company is based out of that church. From what I’ve seen and heard they use the same tactics as SGM. I heard a story once where some gentlemen disagreed with a policy change that the company was making and the management team confronted them with the “Humility” book by CJ. Now as a company I think that they can make all of the changes that they want to, just don’t use scripture as a weapon against men who are trying to provide for their families. Same lingo and manipulation as SGM. I’ve had friends walk away from that company and they’ve been shunned. It’s almost a little church inside of a church. Weird.
April 15th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Long Time, One other question if you don’t mind. Was Bob Hughes “shanked” or was the previous owner of Integrity “shanked”? Thanks so much for answering my questions.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Sorry Fred I really don’t know.
April 15th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Thanks Long Time!
April 15th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
The real reason that he is no longer a pastor is out there, it was a shanking
April 15th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Does anyone know the roots of Integrity?
There was reconditioning company called the Dye team that came out of Damascus Christian
in the mid 1980’s. A lot of these reconditioning companies were spin off’s or breaks from the old Dye Team. (Bill Woodrow, pastor of Damascus Christian, was the owner. All of the employees were Damascus Christian. members.)
Keneth Moresco oversaw some of the “resolution” when Damascus Christian finally folded.
I know that remnants of this company exist and survive at CLC.
April 15th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
All:
I know Bob Hughes a little bit and I must say the last few posts are very enlightening. I had no idea he was tossed from being a pastor. I thought he had voluntarily made a move to go to the marketplace ( more SGM lingo). I do know this that when Bob was still a pastor he was the person in SGM responsible for overseeing the e-teams and then when he ceased being a pastor it seemed that SGM’s commitment to e-teams also ceased. Does anyone know if there a philosophical difference between Bob and Shank concerning missions that led to Bob’s departure from the SGCC pastoral team?
April 16th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Formersgmer – the truth is out there, that is not it. I am not at liberty to post the truth…..
April 16th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Freedom–just wanted to say I find that hysterical:
Freedom is not at liberty to post the truth.
Totally understand, totally agree, but still got a laugh out of your note.
April 16th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Freedom said,
“I am not at liberty to post the truth”
That is the funniest, yet saddest, statement I have read in a long time.
April 16th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
Probably a good idea to leave the Bob H thing alone.
Everything doesn’t belong on the internet.
April 17th, 2009 at 7:32 am
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.”
Isn’t it wonderful that as we walk in the Spirit, we have self-control (and also discernment) to speak or not to speak? This is definitely evidence of true FREEDOM AND LIBERTY in the Spirit. This blog has never been about gossip or trying to destroy anyone. It has always been for the purpose of exposing deception and cover-ups, wrong doctrine, dangerous polity, etc. It has existed for the purpose of bringing forth truth, healing and restoration (including restoration of SGM which can only happen if deception and wrongdoing are exposed, confessed and repented for). There are private details of lives that have not been exposed on this blog and should never be unless those directly involved want to do so. Thank you Freedom and Jim for maintaining the integrity of this blog!
I would like to add that the pastors in Chesapeake (and maybe other SGM churches) expected that you would tell them private information on your friends. Sadly, many did just that and then the pastor would share the information with the other pastors. Also, the pastors admitted that they shared confidential information that the “sheep” were discussing in their counseling sessions with all the other pastors. This was done without the knowledge and permission of the “sheep”. This was pure gossip and was just wrong.
April 17th, 2009 at 7:49 am
P.S. It is widely known that in some cases where pastors were forced to step down, there has been great deception and yes, actually lying about the reasons. Even though it is not necessary for specific details to be revealed in certain cases because to do so could/ would be damaging and destructive to individuals, spouses or families, the pastors should never lie. You can be honest without exposing unnecessary (damaging, destructive) details and specifics. This lying has happened over and over again with SGM pastors and is quite disturbing. Lying is never all right and as we know is an abomination to the Lord. The question remains: has this happened in Chesapeake with the flip-flop of Keith Breault and Eric Hughes? What about in Denver with Dave Bendenelli and others???
April 17th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Fred said at –
“It is widely known that in some cases where pastors were forced to step down, there has been great deception and yes, actually lying about the reasons.”
Time for a pop-quiz
True or False………………….
A) It is sometimes OK to lie (or at least not tell the complete truth) if it is done to protect the church?
B) The ends justify the means in not telling the truth concerning reasons for pastoral staff changes?
C) The “sheep” have a right to know the truth, even if it may cause distress among the “flock” and cast the pastor(s) in a bad light?
so many questions…….so little time
N.S.L.B.
April 17th, 2009 at 10:05 am
What Jim, no chilled Grape Nehi, in the fridge? >snicker<
Hahahahahahah!
Bummer, Dude!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 17th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Quizz,
I lifted this: –written on Mr. Mahaney’s living room mirror: (he he)
“! hcruhc eht tcetorp” >snicker<
Hahahahahahahahah!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 17th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Regarding Fred’s comment that “This lying has happened over and over again with SGM pastors and is quite disturbing”, I agree with him. These guys can’t really be trusted to do the right thing. Before the recent revelations, several years ago, I brought some of these same concerns before them, and they were never sincere, honest, or forthcoming about any of it, nor did they ever do what was good and right when a more deceptive or evil path was available to them. Their reasoning for this deception, and sometimes, downright evil, was controlled by their internal SGM politics, as it still is at this very moment, and will continue into the forseeable future, which is why I don’t believe real change is possible as long as any of them remain in their positions. They’re position and job-security lovers, they’re not really concerned about God or God’s people. Unfortunatly, there are still LOTS of pastor-lovers and people-worshippers attending that church, and they won’t see the light until someone screws with them personally. And for those parishioners, for some of them, it’s just a matter of time, unless their lives continue to go smoothly and they never have to enlist the “help” of these men. But as long as these issues don’t affect them personally, they’re willing to turn their heads the other way. I know, so many of them have told this to me, in so many words. I liken it to Germans who knew Jews were being executed, but did nothing, or like a person lying in the street after being hit by a car, and everyone just dives on by without stopping to help. It’s really incredible, and it’s still a very, very sad and disturbing situation. It’s sick, actually.
April 17th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Well, the Rahab issue comes up…doesn’t it?
Also, Proverbs is replete with cautions about tongue control.
Just because something is true doesn’t make it something that needs to be known.
This is especially true if there are innocent parties (families, children, other believers) that would be hurt by information being shared.
Thanks for the wisdom, y’all.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Miller: I agree with you completely. I am thankful that you called this what it is – an evil path. Make no mistake, this movement has moved away from God and is on an evil path and it is actually sick. There have been too many cases of abuse, wrong doctrine, bad treatment of women, holding the flock in bondage, harmful polity, etc. across the movement to think otherwise. Those who are choosing to stick their head in the sand and continue to ignore the reality that has been set before them actually become just as guilty as the pastors who are committing the deception and abuse.
April 17th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
RT
I would agree with you that sometimes things don’t need to be known or shared but does one have to lie to do that? Can’t they be vague without lying? Maybe like say we have decided it is appropriate for so and so to step down etc.
Of course if there are true sin issues where the Pastor/Elder continues in sin doesn’t scripture to say to rebuke these elders in the presence of all?
April 17th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Miller said: “nor did they ever do what was good and right when a more deceptive or evil path was available to them. Their reasoning for this deception, and sometimes, downright evil, was controlled by their internal SGM politics,”
Please, would someone tell me, why have these pastors chosen the deceptive, evil path over and over? These pastors present themselves as godly men and yet their decisions and behavior behind closed doors is anything but godly. I cannot comprehend this.
April 17th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Fred – good point, we can say what happen was another “shanking” and that the truth was covered up. The Sr Pastor at the time (shank) lied about the real reasons and others kept the lies up. It fits right in with Millertime’s comments that they consistantly choose deception over truth. That is a HUGE issue and a BIG problem and it has been happening since the early days of the movement and is a BIG part of the leadership CULTure.
Millertime – I suddenly feel the urge for a miller lite!
April 18th, 2009 at 11:35 am
No, deception and lying is never right, it is an offense to Jesus and to the Lawmaker–Jesus reminded us when he was here that not a jot or tiddle has ever been removed from the Law. The good news is that we escape the penalty of our lawbreaking.
I think we are talking about two different scenarios.
What I meant was that it is not always necessary for all details to be told to all people about all moral failings.
If a pastor is removed for a legitimate sin issue, and it would damage his wife and kids or people he has abused for details to be known, then the explanation from the elders (whoops, see–stupid me, I am still in the mindset that elders are representatives of the congregation), anyway, from the elders should be: Pastor XYZ has been removed from ministry as a result of a moral failure. We are putting together a search/pulpit committee (oh crud, there I go again, being used to the thought that a congregation calls their own pastors! Stupid me!), anyway…a search/pulpit committee to look for a man to replace him. We will keep you updated on this search. Please pray.
The congregation, sometimes, does not need all the gory details, but wants them desperately…this is the problem of the congregation. They don’t really need to know who the pastor diddled around with, or how much money he stole from the bank account.
Back again, as PK and Jim and Kris and everybody reminds us, to polity. If SGM was led by men chosen from among the congregation, men trusted and well known, the congregation should trust them in this.
That said, the elders also have the responsibility to ride that pastor for a LONG time. They should not just give him a six month severance and set him loose on the next congregation, as often happens.
And I totally agree with you–a pastor who continues in sin needs to be rebuked by the elders–if he does not repent that needs to be brought to the church.
But what about the 12 year old daughter of a man caught in porn endlessly? The 15 year old son of a closeted homosexual pastor? The wife of a pastor who buys prostitutes? We also need to consider them.
Hard, very very hard.
This is why I rejoice that….I am not an elder!!!!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Another family meeting in Chesapeake! Keith explains the timeline of communication between himself and Eric Hughes concerning the flip flop (just to make sure that there is no confusion and that everyone understands clearly what happened). The part time administrator explains the financial condition of the church – all is good and in the black!
April 19th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
Well, I’m glad Keith’s reading along…
These guys are professional public speakers. You’d think they’d get it right the first time.
April 20th, 2009 at 8:06 am
You are right Jim! The really sad thing is that you cannot believe a word that KB and his staff speak. There is too much evidence out there that words come out of their mouths with one goal in mind -to make themselves look good. No concern for truth from these guys. Sad for those sitting in the seats who are still believing every word that their pastors are speaking.
April 20th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Fred-I don’t understand the good people of SGCC. Does no one care enough for Keith to say, “hey, wait a minute… “
April 20th, 2009 at 9:29 am
I don’t understand either, Jim. The people at SGCC are intelligent folks who, I believe, truly want to please God and glorify Him through their lives. They are terribly misguided and misled and maybe just too comfortable in their bubble. There is great deception and fear within this body and great worship of SGM, leaders and pastors. The people continue to hope that this is the real deal, that things are changing and that their leaders are trustworthy men of God. There is too much evidence to prove that they are not trustworthy men of God. However, just like a vulnerable fish with a fat juicy worm at the end of a hook….they swallow - hook, line and sinker. There is such control and manipulation……
There are some who do see. The question is: why do they stay? I don’t know. But God….
Prayer continues to be the answer. Prayer that God will open blind eyes and remove the veil over their eyes; that they will see clearly and not be manipulated, not be deceived. We pray for mercy for those in SGCC, that O God, You will lift the veil and blinders off their eyes, that they will see clearly and that most of all, they will see You Jesus, full of grace and mercy, full of love, offering to them abundant life and victory over their sins, their lives; that they will experience the REAL Gospel, the REAL JESUS CHRIST!
April 20th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Fred,
You might know the answer to this…
It’s my understanding Gene publicly called the three couples “enemies of the church.” His own defenders on the blog said “that was an unfortunate statement”.
I think that the three couples received personal apologies from the pastors, and that Gene thanked them publicly.
Did he ever publicly repent of calling them “enemies of the church”?
Defenders, want to weigh in?
April 20th, 2009 at 10:04 am
In SGM terminology, it is fear of man to not confront the leaders, but the church has effectively been taught not to confront the leaders, because the issue is, of course, rooted in the sinfullness of their own heart. On top of that is the incredible fear of losing your “family” – the church. No one wants to face that, so they rationalize away things that they know are wrong – they overlook the offense and walk blindly on their way and nothing changes and the leaders are empowered to continue in the samewrong behaviour. Fred, thanks for the encouragement to pray.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:19 am
I will weigh in on comments that ge has made in the past, not about the chesapeake church, however, because I am not familiar with that church situation.
He displayed hypocricy towards the pdi church I attended years ago, by saying how glad he was to attend our church and how he carried us in his heart, any time he visited, while making derogatory comments about the church and the people who attended, to other folks he didn’t know were our friends-and who reported those comments to us.
It’s hard to change your spots.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Jim, it is my understanding that the pastors apologized to the 3 couples for some of the 9 issues (regarding pastoral neglect, abusive counseling, erroneous doctrine, etc., all issues regarding the church) that they (3 couples) brought forward. I don’t believe that there was ever an apology made to the 3 couples for anything done against them. I know for a fact that there was no public apology made to the 3 couples at the Jan 25th family meeting. Many people were very disappointed about this. Also, I do not believe that there was ever an apology made either privately or publicly to them regarding the by-invitation only meeting at which they were slandered and their names smeared and the 2 care group leaders were fired. This private meeting was never mentioned at the Jan. 25th family meeting. Actually, many thought that the whole church should have received an apology for this one because only part of the church were even invited. Didn’t happen…
Also, as far as I know, (sure didn’t happen at the family meeting) Gene Emerson never apologized for calling them enemies of the church or for his part in any of it. In fact, he told a group after the Jan 25th family meeting that he was not responsible for any of it. Gene had thanked them for bringing the issues forward.
April 20th, 2009 at 10:26 am
“Without Freedom of thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of speech”
“The only thing more expensive than education is ignorance.”
-
“If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.”
“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence. It is force, and like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
- George Washington
“No man is good enough to govern another man without that other’s consent”
“The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time.”
- Abraham Lincoln
Ben Franklin
“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security”
April 20th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Gene’s actions are clearly inexcusable.
Members of SGCC, don’t worry about what your leaders said, just believe what they say.
That’s worked out pretty good for you so far….
April 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Still in SGM but thinking….
There are those of us who have confronted and have lost family over it….
It comes to a point when you say, wait a minute….our child was abused….and these people have not even attempted to care for her in the basic Christian sense….and we have to convince people that this behavior is unloving and un-Christ like? They
cover themselves with “well, would you have wanted our care??” and “these people have issues”……….
We have not looked the other way, but have hit a brick wall…only God could break through this fortress.
April 20th, 2009 at 11:56 am
old-timer
From one “old-timer to another, Gene is a great “churchman.” What I mean by that is that he buys into the whole SGM/PDI/TAG thing with his whole being. His identity is tied in with it from the very beginning. He was there in the beginning. He and CJ and the rest of the “originals” formed this alliance we now call SGM. They hold onto power because they see it as God mandated, so therefore right.
Gene will crush a little lamb’s spirit to protect the church machine, and he sees that as protecting the unity of the local body. As long as you are willing to promote Gene and his leadership team and SGM, he can be almost nice to be around, except for the sense of arrogance that becomes evident once you get to know him. However, once you deviate from his vision of how you should be living your life, or heaven forbid that you should question him or SGM, that is when your hope of “making the important people’s team” is indelible over. If you want to get along, then go along—that is the SG way. If you show signs of freethinking, you will be marginalized, ostracized, and minimized.
I find it almost impossible to believe that Gene’s worldview isn’t poisoning the stream of the “churches” he is the “apostle” over. It will take real men with divine courage to change the course of this well-oiled machine. It will take courageous sheep to say, “Enough” and rise up or walk out for any real foundational change to take place. There is always a price, isn’t there?
April 20th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
…“making the important people’s team” is overrated.
April 20th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Ha ha
yes it is, but many jockey with everything they have to make that elusive team, don’t ya know?
April 20th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Sure do. A well used carrot.
April 20th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I am familiar with what you say ,gratefully disillusioned from sgm, that is why I believe there is little, if any, hope of change in that group.
And until I ran across this group accidentally a couple weeks ago, I had no idea how pervasive the damage was. I thought it was isolated to just the church we had attended. What an eye-opener.
April 20th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
HowDee, Ya’All,
When I’ze show’in signs of freethinking…
forget da be’in marginalized, ostracized, and minimized…
I’ze juz eat mo broccoli…
dat a’ll clear de room in short order… (snicker!)
Works fer me! he he
AhhhhHahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
April 20th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I think this detail was left out…the new senior “pastor” for the north Denver church, Glynn Makenzie, was at the Chesapeake church before going to Denver and then on to Gilbert with Shank.
What is it with Shank’s involvement in all the LIES?
I have firsthand experience with the lies. They’re being unfolded one more step at survivors blog.
Why couldn’t he just tell the truth?
Why did the care group “leaders” and their wives have to lie to cover up things they said that didn’t match up with what Shank said at the Shanking? Their apology was a lie. Because Shank can’t tell the truth, God’s people are being forced to lie.
And why don’t the care group “leaders” have enough b***s to stand up and say “this Shanking is completely mishandled.”
Why?
one very duped Sidney
April 20th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
I have to say, I was particularly shocked by the recent post on Survivors. Just when you think you’ve heard it all…where was this pastor’s integrity? Where was his love for God’s folk? I am more and more convinced that men like this do not walk with God. They simply could not know Him and then deceive others the way this pastor did. And the anger? When does a pastor think he is justified in yelling at people he is suppose to gently guide? Why didn’t the apostle-in-charge immediately disqaulify this man? Instead and once again, people were hurt badly and forced to leave a place they once called “home”.
Carole, I have to say that the questions you asked on your big post are once again needing to be asked. Where is this man’s repentance? Too, too sad. I think this canary has to go have a good cry in her bird bath…
April 20th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Canary,
And not surprising because back at the mothership, right around the same time, my husband was yelled at, shouted down, told to SHUT UP and called several names in a discipleship meeting. There were a dozen or so other men in the room and the guy blasted my husband publicly. Interestingly because he has always questioned a couple parts of reformed theology and he was asking about that. For some reason, every time he asked (I have been there and he’s not asking arrogantly), he always got shot down and shut up. This time, however, it was strikingly different and humiliating.
I am of a very strong belief that the “Pastor X” story on survivors is one more episode of a systemic problem.
And an interesting twist…we crossed paths with “Pastor X” for the 3 years prior to leaving SGM and prior to his Shanking. He was the ONLY pastor we’d ever had in SGM who was full of grace, gentleness, patience and kindness towards us. We entered that church in a floundering mess of a marriage. He and his wife gently picked us up and walked through the darkest days with us. My sin was not brought up until 6 months into the “counseling” and I brought it up. There were several occasions where I went on a tyrade that I was kicking my husband out, leaving SGM, leaving the church alltogether and moving on. They never confronted me. They lovingly cared for me.
I totally believe Defender’s story. I do not take that away. ”Pastor X” should have been fired (and it would have been completely justified had it been done at the time) and the family should have been vindicated.
I also believe that there are days when I yell at my children. That doesn’t take away the fact that there is wonderful fruit in our relationship. It doesn’t take away from the fact that I adore my children and I would die for any one of them.
Now, the reason we left is the 12 years leading up to that particular Shanking. It was the control, the legalism, the shouting-down my husband received, it was the way my family treated my husband calling him prideful and “puffed up” because he studied the Word and wrestled with it. It was the inept boy pastor at CLC who met with us in the beginning of our marriage crisis and completely dropped the ball after 1 meeting. There are several hundred other reasons why we are no longer part of SGM. I must say that our experience with “Pastor X” is the entire reason we stuck around for 3 more years.
I don’t know if “Pastor X” was bearing fruit by then. It was 3 years after Defender and his wife were abused. Perhaps he did get conviction and did change.
Nonetheless, it happened. And it’s systemic. And it was totally terribly mishandled. As usual….
But, alas, we’re talking about Chesapeake…not somewhere in the midwest.
April 21st, 2009 at 7:55 am
Canary… unfortunately, Defender’s story did not take me by surprise. There are many stories just like Defender’s, from all over the country within SGM-ville. I still have great compassion for those who have had to suffer through these situations, but I am certainly not surprised by them any longer. And doesn’t that speak volumes about the integrity and reputation of Sovereign Grace Ministries? Sad.
You would think that the SGM pastors/leaders who act out in this way would be utterly and completely disqualified from pastoring… or serving in ANY leadership capacity. The lack of maturity shown by the leaders who demonstrate this type of behavior are no better than a five year old throwing a temper tantrum!… which, in SGM, would disqualify that disobedient five year old’s PARENTS from serving. Quite the discrepancy, don’t ya think?
Sidney… while I’m very thankful that your interactions with “pastor x” played out much differently than Defender/Defended’s did, I am having a hard time with this statement you made:
“I don’t know if “Pastor X” was bearing fruit by then. It was 3 years after Defender and his wife were abused. Perhaps he did get conviction and did change.”
If “pastor x” was convicted and changed, WHY hasn’t he repented for his actions against Defender/Defended? And repented and asked forgiveness from everyone else involved in their situation that he manipulated and lied to?
Just doesn’t make sense to me…
April 21st, 2009 at 8:21 am
Carole,
That’s what I’m contemplating about this particular situation. I am considering sending the story to him and his wife and asking them to consider if he’s done everything he can to be reconciled. I am praying and talking with my husband about this.
Sidney
April 21st, 2009 at 8:29 am
Sidney… that’s a tough place to be, I’m sure! To have had a completely different interaction with pastor x, and to hear of D/D’s completely opposite interaction with this same man HAS to leave you kinda scratching your head!
If you do make contact with pastor x, may I make a suggestion? Instead of asking him if he has done everything he can to be reconciled, ask him if he’s done anything to be reconciled. That may be a more appropriate line of questioning, methinks…
Just an observation from the sidelines…
April 21st, 2009 at 8:34 am
By the way, Sidney… I admire you for even considering contacting pastor x regarding D/D’s situation!
It just shows where your heart is and how soft it is towards God and His ways!
April 21st, 2009 at 9:05 am
Carole,
I scratched my head for about 15 minutes yesterday when I read the story. But then, while my house was quiet and I was doing the morning dishes, the Lord so kindly and graciously showed me how I had treated my precious daughter that very morning. And I thought…”hm. I sinned against her. I was not kind to her. I have yelled at her a LOT. I have gotten very angry at her. I have dealt with her unjustly and for very little reason.”
The Lord then showed me that none of those things has taken away the fact that we adore one another. That God chose this precious person for our family and that my children are my life. I know that she also adores me and that we have a very deep, abiding love.
Then I realized that I hardly ever ask them to forgive me. Not because I don’t feel conviction. I guess it’s more that I don’t think about it.
Sooooo…..no, I didn’t scratch my head for very long. It didn’t surprise me. Things like what happened with Noel and what happened with Esther make me scratch my head. Esther’s situation makes me sick. Then, sending down an edict about separation and calling that edict “biblical” is just sick. THAT makes me scratch my head.
What Pastor X did is hardly surprising or shocking. There are a few things about the story that are surprising….
The fact that this is systemic and ongoing is bad news. I have personally experienced this yelling at people, humiliating people. My husband was the brunt of it.
The fact that Apostle didn’t do more and immediately either send in accountability or fire Pastor is what bothers me mostly about the whole thing. Because if he was doing that and not realizing his fault, he shouldn’t have been a pastor for several years longer. I know…people will say “but there was accountability.” That’s not appropriate pastoral accountability in SGM. The ONLY accountability in SGM for pastors is pastors. Nobody else.
April 21st, 2009 at 9:06 am
Carole,
I have to ask if he’s done “everything” because if I ask if he’s done “anything,” he will say yes, because clearly he thinks he has. Otherwise, he would have done more.
So, the key word is “everything.”
Sidney
April 21st, 2009 at 11:41 am
As I mentioned previously, Gene Emerson, the “apostle” slandered and smeared the 3 couples and called them enemies of the church. He participated in a very unbiblical and ungodly meeting. Never once has he apologized and even more than that he has said that he bears no responsiblity for any of it. How could he say this when in fact, the words came from his mouth?? Where is demonstration of godly, biblical behavior in any of this and why is Emerson still an “apostle” in this movement? If they are moving Breault around, why are they not moving Emerson around? He was the one over and responsible for Breault and the Chesapeake church.
Furthermore, “Esther” cried out for help from Gene Emerson, CJ, Steve Shank, Dave Harvey, etc. and they ALL refused to help her. Steve Shank even sent an email to Keith Breault saying that he was deleting “Esther’s” email (Shank did apologize to Esther for this after he found out that he had inadvertantly sent her a copy of the email to Breault). And yes, the pastors apologized to “Esther” but only after she had sent her letter around to the apostolic team. You may be thinking, this is old news. Yes it is but why are we not seeing any changes coming from the top and why aren’t we hearing anything from CJ publically about all of the abuse, wrong doctrine, and chaos in this movement? Why are they still covering up and not telling the truth to their congregations?
April 21st, 2009 at 11:54 am
Fred writes, “If they are moving Breault around, why are they not moving Emerson around? He was the one over and responsible for Breault and the Chesapeake church.”
And guess where they are moving Breault? They are moving Keith to “serve” under the “apostle” Gene! Yes, indeed, Keith will be relocating to Kingsway to learn under the “apostle” Gene. That is the solution–isn’t it incredible how SGM solves problems. It is kind of like our government thinks–Does common sense exist; i am just thinking here!
April 21st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Just wondering: Will the good people from Kingsway be paying Keith’s salary?
April 21st, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Ha ha, you know the answer to that, Fred! But for others reading, Keith will be on Kingsway’s payroll during his “intern” tenure. And the “good people” of Kingsway, will be paying, without being consulted–But what’s new?
April 21st, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Thanks Gratefully! You are on TOP OF IT!!
Any folks from Kingsway reading this blog, want to give your 2 cents to this arrangement?
April 21st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Although I have posted here a few times, I apologize for not “introducing’ myself. Our family exited SGM this past year,after 19 years. We are unspeakably thankful to the Lord for awakening us and opening our eyes to unsound doctrine (indwelling sin focus) and the arrogant and insidious abuses by leadership. Our story is a whole ‘nuther story,which I am not accounting now. Thankyou, Refuge, Jim and Carole for providing this Lighthouse for Gods people.
Fred and Gratefully DSG: I am also a close friend of “Esther” and prayed with her and walked out the whole Chesapeake exposure of abuses. And you are correct, when she asked for help from Gene Emerson, he did call her—and also told her to return to her pastor, Keith Brault, for his counsel. Indeed, this was the same as a child at school gettting up all her courage to go tell her teacher and prinipal that she was being abused at home and their response—go home and trust your parents. The great lack of discernment (which comes from RELATIONSHIP with the Lord and His giftings and insight and compassion) on the part of Gene Emerson and they way he spoke about and to the 3 couples in Chesapeake—is UNChristlike. And so, I wonder—exactly what and how is he going to mentor Keith Breault?? Did Keith ever genuinely repent for attempting to institute a “doctrine” of marriage that women couldnot leave marriages–no separation etc, ever–even under abuse—that they were called to “suffer ” in such appointed marriages??? And Keiths statement to the Chesapeake church that the recent flip-flopping of bringing in EH had absolutely nothing to do with the months of upheaval and exposure in the church????? I would ask “WHY NOT?” Why would the top leadership of SGM NOT be appalled by this??? Apparently, this new “doctrine” Keith was going to keep women in bondage to was not such an unBiblical idea for the SGM leadership. As Esther so succintly pointed out, the twisting of words and scripture and behavior among leadership is frightening—and is one of the very important “issues” the Lord is exposing.
April 21st, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Waters
Welcome to a place of safety and understanding–well usually. :-) Most of us are at various degrees of sanity and at various degrees of total healing from SGM. My wife and I are out almost two years now and growing by His grace, never looking back. When we left, it was as clear as the noses on our faces that God was blowing our little sailboat far away from what we discovered in SGM. As we look back we can only be thankful for the LIFE we are discovering when the noise of SGM finally quiets down. Abba is really close away from the noise and the pretense of the “church machine.” None of it comes immediately–but HE is faithful!
I love your words: “…when she asked for help from Gene Emerson, he did call her—and also told her to return to her pastor, Keith Brault, for his counsel. Indeed, this was the same as a child at school gettting up all her courage to go tell her teacher and principal that she was being abused at home and their response—go home and trust your parents.” What a great word picture of what commonly happens with pastors who buy into the sheparding movement and the “covering” principle of how God work with His people.
Some of them (Gene Emerson for sure) operate under that presupposition. In fairness, they are products of that paradigm of ministry that was strongly propagated in the ’70s and early ’80s. I know because I too was influenced by the Gothard phenomenon which took evangelical Christianity by storm. Unfortunately, it evolved into the shepherding craziness and the “covering” emphasis, which still dominates a few movements today, Calvary Chapel and SGM, to name a few.
I think that all of that is being challenged now, and perhaps we are witnessing battle lines being drawn in the sand, with much colateral damage in the mean time, unfortionatly–Esther being a prime example.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Waters, thanks for the very articulate and well thought out post! May God bring great healing to you and your family and flood you with Living Water!! To answer one question, we do know that Keith Breault and other pastors in Chesapeake actually called women in (who had been in abusive marriages) and apologized to them for ever “allowing” them to separate in the first place. Of course that is part of what was going on before anyone even knew about the “new doctrine”. After people became aware of Esther’s story, Keith and the other pastors changed their tune and “saw” the error of their ways. Keith did apologize at the Jan. 25th meeting for implementing an erroneous doctrine (I think).
Because of the pastors, ”because of indwelling sin, you the victim are a sinner and you the abuser are a sinner so there is no guilty party here” model of counseling, many women thought that they were crazy for YEARS!!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Gratefully DSGM
Thankyou for the thoughtful welcome. Your words: “…we are thankful for the LIFE we are discovering when the noise of the SGM machine finally quiets down.” So true!! We have become members of another church — upon our 1st vist there,as we came home stunned from the Presence of the love and liberty of the risen Christ…we were attempting to discuss our reactions to the church—and my husband was walking back and forth in the kitchen and he suddenly said:– “…..it’s like LIFE, in that church.” Which are the exact words I had written on my “Visitor Card” as I attempted to capsulate the waves of emotions and thankfulness on a little visitors card!! Yes, He IS the Redeemer—and we are in process.
I would like to delightfully report that Esther and her children are absolutely thriving and receiving healing and steps of restoration at their new home church. The Lord gives her directions,she obeys, and He provides every need—it is a most amazing story to watch (and we are all Living Epistles to the glory of God).
Yes, as has been reported on these blogs, the Shepherding movement has risen its hideous head once again through SGM-and continuously, Holy Spirit brings His Light to expose where the enemy would come to kill, steal and destroy. And because SGM has been able to operate ‘covertly’, in a sense—by controlling people with the threat of their “sin of gossip/slander” and attempt to silence those who ask scriptural important questions of SGM authoritative robotic leaders–Truth of what goes on “behind closed doors” is now on the internet (re: God always intervenes in media ‘discoveries’—telegram,telephone,radio,television.) And so, we who have been silenced and disregarded after mannnnnnnnnnnny attempts to bring Truth have an avenue to speak. The deeds of darkness,by anyone, God promises, will be exposed. He has given such lengths of grace to so many pastors and ‘apostles’ and the Gaithersberg echelon……..but they arenot brokenhearted over their sin of mauling the sheep,the church……only how they can “fix” it all and veneer everything to appear Godly and Biblical…..We pray for all those pastors,”A Team”, and leaders…”repent, and return to your first love—the Lord Jesus CHrist.”
April 21st, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Waters,
So glad you are on the mend, emotionally and spiritually. Thank the Lord that there are still churches out there filled with saints who move in the love of Christ!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Hi Canary,
How are things going with you? I know you were not feeling well a few weeks ago, and I lost touch with how you were progressing through that. In any case I see you are still on top of your cage.
April 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Waters,
Yes, it is wonderful to have our sins forgiven–ALL OF THEM by the way! But it is the LIFE we receive that is especially precious, which is the root of all intimacy with HIM. It is what makes our hearts cry out ABBA Father, no longer playing life in a “play not to loose” mode; rather, living life in a there is no condemnation and no separation possible in Christ Jesus because what He did for us is final, complete, and indelible–that is the good news!!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Fred and Canary, Thankyou, too for your encouragement!
And yes, Gratefully, we are rejoicing to recall that we walk in newness of life,that we are ever being changed,from glory to glory…as Holy Spirit nurtures His sanctifying work in us!
Fred, in regards to the Jan 25th meeting, in Chesapeake, did Gene Emerson speak on behalf of the SGM Ledership about any means of correction they would be bringing to Keith B for his perverse twisting of scripture to keep women in abusive marriages?? Thanks for any clarification!
April 21st, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Waters,
I am so glad to hear that you and you husband are finding LIFE in your new church. My wife and I attend the same church as “Esther” and I can attest to your report – she and her children are doing very well indeed! God is truly faithful.
April 21st, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Waters, no Gene Emerson did not speak on behalf of the SGM leadership about any means of correction for Keith Breault, Brett Campbell, Trevor Haynes or Chris Mangold. In fact, he has never reported back on the supposed investigation that was to take place after the 3 couples brought the issues forward.
Has there been any investigations into Gene Emerson’s behavior as well as the other apostles who would not get involved with Esther? These men are just as guilty as the pastors, in fact, I believe more so. For the most part, the pastors in Chesapeake are young inexperienced men who should have had great oversight by the apostles. This did not happen.
And Waters, I agree with you. God has been so patient and extended so much grace to the leaders and pastors of SGM. Would stiffnecked and prideful be accurate adjectives here or just lack of discernment???
In Chesapeake, the pastors were given many opportunities of grace to change the course that they were headed on which was a course of destruction for themselves and this church. They refused the grace and we see the outcome….
April 21st, 2009 at 4:45 pm
It just hit me – do people not know that as Keith was writing the new doctrine on separation that he was presenting to the Chesapeake church in the fall of 09 that Gene Emerson, Jeff Purswell and others were reading and proofing it? They were in agreement with the new doctrine or they would have stopped it because they definitely knew about it.
April 21st, 2009 at 5:00 pm
WHY is K Breault relocating to Gene’s church ? Perhaps to become more of a SGM son of a gun than he already is. Perhaps they want to “save” him before he comes to his senses. Seriously, he’s a really nice guy, just incompetent, and he gets SGM politics mixed up with Godliness clearly. And he obviously isn’t very good at self-evaluation or loving truth and common sense if the conclusion conflicts with any SGM politics. Unfortunately, because he chose to keep his career going with SGM, there’s little hope for him, especially under Gene. So the stuff will continue to roll downhill, and he’ll think he’s making progress because he will be protected by Gene the Great. Something like this has the potential of really turning a bad pastor into a better one if he sees the error and turns 180 degrees, but this is not the case here. He will now become well-trained in the very best SGM tactics of non-accountability, crowd control, and will fall further into additional faulty interpretation of doctrine and its practice. In other words, this is possibly the worst move he could have made, particularly if he was more concerned with his soul and calling, than his career. Unfortunately for him and his future flock, he chose his SG career over true ministry. And so another SG son of a gun is born.
April 21st, 2009 at 5:07 pm
more of a SGM son of a gun than he already is
April 21st, 2009 at 5:08 pm
millertime,
Brillant comments, IMHO! I like the “Gene the Great” especially. Incredible discernment!
April 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Fred,
I remember that too, when Esther and the 3 couples were going through all the meetings, that Keith did say that Jeff Purswell was reviewing his pages of this new “doctrine”. At the time, we thought, that is most horriffic if true and horiffic if not true (because then Keith would be telling an untruth). And so, that begs the question- was SGM Big Guns watching to see if this doctrine would float at the large Chesapeake church????? I remember Keith was honored at PC for being at the top of his class. The letter of the law (which kills, Jesus said) may have attmepted to be written through Keiths hands while the Gaithersberg echelon “watched over” it all. Perhaps that is why there is a silence (with small aplogy )instead of an uproar from leadership to ensure this type of heresy doesnot occur. I would be greatly alarmed if Keith Breault would be on a road to pastoring again or in an administrative position at headquarters. As Millertime stated, under Gene’s tutalage it would be choosing career over ministering. Honestly, the Big Guns do seek to duplicate themselves, instead of THE Shepherd,Jesus—the One Who truly watches over our souls.
April 21st, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Waters,
You wrote, “I would be greatly alarmed if Keith Breault would be on a road to pastoring again or in an administrative position at headquarters.”
Well, the plan is for Keith to “intern” under Gene at Kingsway and in due time for Keith to be sent out to plant another SGM church.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I have a specific question: is Kingsway going to be paying Keith’s salary while he is interning there, is Chesapeake, or is SGM?
Thanks for anyone that knows.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pm
did they know my son was raped??????? Why was nothing said???? 11 years 0ld. Richmond VA.church. Virgina BEACH South side church knew something and said nothing???????????? We find out when he was eighteen,if I knew when he was sixteen I think I could of helped him,I know I could of helped him. Moved to Virginia beach 1989,left1994. what more can I say, I just live with this, maybe mailing this WILL just make me feel a little better ,JUST THAT I HAVE TOLD SOME OF THE STORY.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Hi Everyone:
I just wanted to stop in and give a praise report! God is continuing to bless my
children and I. We are so well cared for. Each day that passes I marvel at God’s
faithfulness to provide. To think we are living in times where the economy is
hard on a two income family, and yet God shows His power to sustain me and
my children on a very tiny income. Of course, we all know it is because of the
wonderful Body of Christ (each of you) who respond to the Holy Spirit when
He prompts you to reach out your hand to help a brother or sister! I am so
very grateful to each of you who have continued to walk with my children and
I.
God has been walking me through a season of the healing of wounds. I guess
I never knew I had wounds over the years. I know I would cry at times, but I
had such a wonderful intimacy with my Savior that I didn’t realize some of the
wounds I had sustained.
Slowly over time God is revealing to me the wounds I have. It is painful for the
moment, but the fruit of facing them and releasing and forgiving has brought
more and more freedom to my soul. I am very excited about the future.
Recently I remembered a Word God gave me back in 2007. It was so powerful
then, but now it seems even more to me than ever.
In Joshua 1 & 2 we find the story of God’s people inheriting the land that God had promised them (this included the city of Jericho). God commanded His people to be strong and very courageous, and to be careful to do according to His Word. This story includes the event of the capturing of the city of Jericho. God was speaking to me that in a sense some of us are within the walls of the city experiencing a spiritual battle (a spiritually life threatening battle). God’s will is that we be included in inheriting and taking possession of His promise to save us. He spoke to me that the walls are crashing all around us. This is God’s doing. The walls represent all those things that we have been tempted to, or have deliberately placed our security, love, trust, comfort, and allegiance to other than Himself. God has made provision for us and for those in our family who are willing to come to gather within His protective dwelling with the scarlet cord tied in the window of our hearts which represents the shed blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, there to be protected, redeemed, and saved though all around may be crashing down. He requires a response of whole hearted obedience to let go of all else and to come to Him and in complete surrender place all trust and confidence in Him and in Him alone. His desire is to “save” us and to lead us to inherit the land that He has promised us in eternity – our place of perfect rest – free from sin, all enemies, all suffering, and all fear. This story includes a warning to those of Rahab’s household that if they go out of the doors of her house (which represents the secure dwelling in Christ covered by His blood), that their blood would be upon their own head left to face the full wrath of God which is a dreadful and fearful thing.
Remember, Rahab was the prostitute who found her place in the
plans and purposes of God where one day He would save her and she would be a part of the very lineage of Jesus Christ himself!!!! What hope!!!!
May God continue to cause the walls to fall down that each of
His children may walk in total freedom!
April 21st, 2009 at 8:21 pm
Gratefully,
With the current plan of action, for Keith to be “interning” under Gene E (????), we have opportunity to pray and do spiritual warfare during that time. AND, our household is committed to remain sensitive to the Holy Spirit and answer the call to be “watchmen” on the wall…the spiritual lives of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ are at stake.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Dear Mother–
I am so very sorry. This is a very safe place to tell your story and find prayer and understanding. Many will weep with you.
April 21st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Ken Delage, who is interning under Gene Emerson, will be leaving Kingsway for a “church” plant in Fredericksburg at the end of this month to make final preperations to begin that new “church” plant later this summer. That will make room for Keith to move in whenever EH takes over the sr. pastor role at Chesepeake.
April 21st, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Oh right, Fredericksburg. Because there are no good churches in Fredericksburg. I forgot.
April 21st, 2009 at 9:29 pm
Esther/Sylvia,
Thankyou for speaking,dear friend and sister…….we rejoice with you to watch Gods sure Hand of care and faithfulness and restoration for you and your children.Saints, this is a life-giving word she has brought us….may our only security (and alleigance)be in the Lord Jesus Christ…….
April 21st, 2009 at 9:30 pm
A Mother,
My wife would love to hear from you. No pressure, but if you want to send a note, she’s at carole@sgmrefuge.com
We’re praying that God’s peace would rest on you and your family.
April 21st, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Dear A Mother,
My heart is breaking for you. I am so very, very sorry for what happened to your son and to you. May God’s most abundant peace and love saturate you and your son and bring forth total and complete healing. I will be praying for you and your son. God bless you dear woman!
April 22nd, 2009 at 7:28 am
Esther,
I’ve been wondering how you are doing. That was so beautifully written. Thank you for sharing.
April 22nd, 2009 at 7:33 am
A Mother,
I’m so sorry. Your son and your family will be in our prayers.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:05 am
Esther, so good to hear that you and your family are doing well! Thank you for the wonderful word!
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:29 am
A Mother,
I am so sorry….you are in my prayers too.
May I encourage you to consider emailing Carole?
She has been a blessing and a wise comforter to many.
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:06 am
http://sex-offender.vsp.virgin.....regId=3705
who were they protecting? this man, the victims or themselves?
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:12 am
A Mother, sadly, oh so sadly, SGM has a pattern of protecting the abusers and treating the victims as if they are the abuser, as if they are the ones in the wrong.
CJ et al, wake up and repent because we know that this is happening in many of your churches. Wake up and repent because the people will not stand in silence any longer. Wake up and repent because we know that you and your leaders have been protecting sexual predators, sexual deviants, child molesters, wife abusers and others. This abuse has gone on long enough and too many people especially the defenseless have been hurt. I am not speaking out of speculation or gossp. I am speaking here as one who knows of too many cases where this has happened and where my friends and their children have been hurt.
We are blowing the trumpet and sounding the alarm. We will not stand by and allow you and your ’leaders” to continue this mockery. Those that you, SGM, have allowed to be hurt, that you have neglected and abused are precious to God and He is saying ENOUGH!!!
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:56 am
A Mother,
We are praying for you–you have brought this into the light. I hope you will email Carole, that your heart can be heard. We are covering you in prayer
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 am
PS I know that these sexual abusive, neglectful cover-ups have occurred in Fairfax, Richmond/Kingsway, Denver, and Chesapeake SGM churches. I am but one person which makes me wonder, how many cases are there ???? Folks, I am sad to say, we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:45 am
OMGoodness, I honestly had no idea that these horrifying things had gone on in PDI or SMG churches.
However, I can tell you all that the church we attended before PDI (methodist)had the same thing– A guy who loved helping in children’s ministries, and later spent time in jail.
But the feelings of anger, rage and heartbreak that you must be feeling Mother! I am so sorry you and your son had to go through that. And I am sorry that you do not feel vindicated because of the pastoral treatment.
Fred, right on.
.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:56 am
Esther,
Your words are so encouraging. The Lord has spoken to my husband and I about being in Jericho, as well, and that the walls have fallen down. I am printing out your post to show him. I’m glad you are doing well!
A Mother,
There is hope in Jesus. Here is a big hug [[[[[[[[[[Mother]]]]]]]]].
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Fred,
Denver?
Is there someplace where I can read about this?
Was it north or south Denver?
Sidney
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Sidney, I am sorry to say that there is no place that you can read about this. I cannot share details because it is not my story. Suffice it to say, it is very real and very grievous.
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Fred wrote on
April 22nd, 2009 at 10:00 am –
“PS I know that these sexual abusive, neglectful cover-ups have occurred in Fairfax, Richmond/Kingsway, Denver, and Chesapeake SGM churches. I am but one person which makes me wonder, how many cases are there ???? Folks, I am sad to say, we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg here.”
Fred also wrote on
April 22nd, 2009 at 2:38 pm –
“Sidney, I am sorry to say that there is no place that you can read about this. I cannot share details because it is not my story. Suffice it to say, it is very real and very grievous.”
Beloved of God writes —
I had a story very similar to Esther’s in the North Denver church.
Yes, folks, you’ve only heard the teensiest drop in the bucket as to what went on in that church, and yes, it is very real and very grievous.
When I’ve been able to tell an occasional person my story, they have been speechless or full of words, but all with grief and anger and shock that this should have happened by design and by carefully crafted policies and doctrines in a “church”.
This happened to me under the direction and knowledge of the head pastor and the other pastors, and Steve and Janis Shank. Actually, the worst I experienced there was from the pastors and the Shanks.
But, of course, all that was with a bit of the real gospel thrown in for “good” measure.
There is more about the North Denver church at:
To Steve Shank, Dave Harvey, Gene Emerson, and CJ Mahaney, from “Esther”
Jim on January 20th, 2009
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/01/2.....j-mahaney/
AND AT:
From my “in” box… | SGM Survivors
By Kris, on July 12th, 2008
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=76
If Steve Shank picked and trained all these pastors who were later removed for “lack of gifting,” what does that say about Steve Shank? Why is he not removed for “lack of gifting”????
Keep digging, folks! Keep pressing for the truth!
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:38 pm
More about North Denver at:
The Kingdom of Shank
Jim on February 4th, 2009
http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/02/0.....-of-shank/
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Beloved,
I’m not surprised at the players. Not one bit. Not one bit at all.
There is a very long trail of ruined lives behind Mr Shank. When his wife involves herself, the long trail grows.
I’m so so sorry.
Sidney
April 22nd, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Sidney, I’ve heard that from others, too. All of it!
And yes, I agree totally about all of what you said!
Yet none of the leaders — CJ, AT (apolostolic team), former AT, LT (leadership team), both of the Shanks — repent and turn. None of them reacts differently (at least publicly) than the pharisees who carefully crafted insincere responses to Jesus. AND they do not take responsibility for the ruined lives, families, and marriages they have caused, let alone try to make restitution and try to help those people by binding up their wounds and staying by them and making sure they become whole again.
By their fruit you shall know them — and these people have repeately and consistently SHOWN they do NOT love the people of God, the Word of God, and the Lord.
One more thing — Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
I fear for these people’s very souls!
There is so much “another gospel” in SGM. There are so many “another gospel”s in SGM.
I pray for these people’s very salvation!
April 22nd, 2009 at 4:01 pm
A Mother —
I am so very sorry. I will pray for you and your family.
April 22nd, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Beloved of God, thank you so much for writing. I pray that God quickly heals you and restores you. Hopefully, there will be a time in the near future when your pain is a distant memory. God is faithful and He loves you so much. God bless you!
April 22nd, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Fred wrote — Hopefully, there will be a time in the near future when your pain is a distant memory.
BoG writes — I cannot even imagine such a thing.
Thank you for your prayers.
April 22nd, 2009 at 11:13 pm
BoG,
Because of the love and faithfulness of God, your healing, total and complete, will happen. Jesus came to heal your broken heart: Isaiah 61:1-8 “He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted…….To comfort all who mourn….3To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified. 4And they shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolation, And they shall repair the ruined cities….7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor….Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. 8For I, the Lord, love justice;”
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Fred,
Your words are always so comforting to folks. I’m glad you are here.
April 23rd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Beloved of God,
Fred is right that there will come a day when the SGM stuff is just a distant memory. Really! You will even begin to see purpose in your having gone through the tough stuff. Just keep holding Jesus’ hand. He knows how to get you into a place of rest. Hugs!
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Thanks Canary for your encouraging words. I have missed seeing you around the blog. Hope you are feeling better!
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Beloved of God, I was in the North Denver church for four long painful excruciating years as part of the church plant. I have been gone for 7 years and out of SGM entirely for 4.5, I’m so grateful for every single moment spent away from the insanity.
I watched too many women and a few men go through insanity at the hands of SGM’s leadership. I was deeply saddened to find out most every thing I thought I knew and people I thought could be trusted were really perpetrating more harm than all the blatant sinners I hung out with before I got saved, all in the name of Christ. It still makes me want to vomit.
I’d love to correspond via email at some point. Maybe the administrator could arrange a way to set that up with out either of us having to reveal who we are to the public.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I’d be happy to do that-just need both party’s consent.
Assuming you’re both the same gender
jim@sgmrefuge.com
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Free Indeed —
Thank you for putting into words what I could not verbalize, about the insanity — at the hands of the leaders and pastors and teachings.
Jim — OK by me. You know my gender.
Thanks also to Fred and Canary for their kind words. Thanks to all who pray.
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Jim, please give my gmail address.
April 23rd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Jim, I’ve sent you my email. And gender.
Thank you BoG.
April 23rd, 2009 at 11:42 pm
Beloved of God and FreeIndeed,
Would love and appreciate to also be in communication with you, as I also was a part of the North Denver church.
Jim, would you be a dear since you know me and send them my personal email address? I know it has my name but thats okay…nothing left to hide
Thank you,
Mark of the Lion
April 24th, 2009 at 7:00 am
Markofthelion,
I’ve sent Jim the all clear on contacting me. I do hope you email me. I have an explanation to make.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:10 am
It’s OK with me, Jim.
April 25th, 2009 at 11:04 am
Sindey and Fred,
I am from the Devner Church and would be happy to anwer your questions via email. I am up to date on the “happenings” and am just trying to put my story together in the safest way possible before “exposing my identity”. Once it is out there, people are not going to be so happy with me. But it is my story to share…
Mark of the Lion
markofthelion@live.com
April 26th, 2009 at 12:31 am
Brothers and Sisters:
I am praying! One of my concerns for those still in Sovereign Grace Ministries truly is the need for God to break through the walls that have gone up around God’s people. Religious walls that do not allow Holy Spirit the freedom to come in and bring true healing and liberation in the hearts and lives of God’s people. The broken people remain broken. Our young people need to know the power of the Gospel in its fullness– the birth, life, death, & resurrection of our Savior. That the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in us, His church. We must teach the need to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to walk in the Holy Spirit.
One of the things that has been missing among others is the recognition of the third person of the trinity – “Holy Spirit.” I have often wondered why the leaders who experienced fruitfulness in their personal lives over the years weren’t sharing their secret – the power of the Holy Spirit who was working in them. Spirit filled men who I knew were filled because I would hear them speaking in tongues when I was praying next to them. Men who often were used to bring forth Words of Knowledge during a meeting calling out to someone in particular who was struggling with a specific area that needed healing, repentance, or encouragement. Where did these gifts go? Someone told me last year that the Lord had revealed to them that Sovereign Grace had “divorced” the Holy Spirit. What a thought. The very one whom Christ warned us not to grieve because He seals our souls until Christ returns. The very one whom Jesus Christ said he must go back to the Father so that the “Holy Spirit,” “Comforter,” and “Helper,” could come. And when we walk in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but instead manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit – “Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” Holy Spirit is manifested in us through the gifts – utterance of wisdom utterance of knowledge, gifts of faith, gifts of healing, prophetic utterance, the gift of tongues and interpretation, etc. and all for the edification of the Body of Christ, His church.
Perhaps because this is such a forsaken relationship in Sovereign Grace Ministries, it provides us a glimpse as to what has caused such a lack of discernment, wisdom, power, and fruit of the Holy Spirit in some of the leadership. Someone also told me that Sovereign Grace Ministries made a change doctrinally concerning the Holy Spirit in 2002. I do not know what these changes involved, but the fruit of these changes has manifested itself in the church in recent times.
Ephesians 1:13-23 “In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory.” For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love towards all the saints, I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of His power towards us who believe, according to the working of His great might that he worked in Christ when he raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under His feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” Ephesians 2:1-6 “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But, GOD, BEING RICH IN MERCY BECAUSE OF HIS GREAT LOVE WITH WHICH HE LOVED US, EVEN WHEN WE WERE DEAD IN OUR TRESPASSES, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST—BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED—AND RAISED US UP WITH HIM AND SEATED US WITH HIM IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS…” PRAISE THE LORD!!!!
April 26th, 2009 at 10:00 am
Hi Esther, If it wasn’t for the HOLY SPIRIT I don’t know what I would have done so many times over the past 20 years. HE is the ONE WHO led me out of PDI, HE has sustained me time and again. Given me hope, comfort, love, grace, mercy and help to go on. What a dark, bleak, hopeless world it would be without the HOLY SPIRIT.
Now, that being said, I learned to know HIM on my own, not at church, not in a meeting or a small group. I cried out to the LORD throughout many years and just by being around HIM so much, I got to know HIM because HE revealed HIMSELF to me. That took time, I might add, for me anyway.
So when a fake or counterfeit spirit came along, it was easier to spot. Or more likely, when the SPIRIT was just not (rarely) ever in a meeting–it was easily discernable. And made me wonder why. Knowledge was preferred over what God wanted. Correct doctrine(but whose doctrine–and who said it was correct) was the god…people were of little value except for their money and their ability to sit on a chair or do the work that the leaders deemed valuable. We were just worker bees, supporting the queen, or king.
The evil one has honed his skills well over the ages. He uses religion constantly to test us and try us(with the LORD’S permission, of course) to prove what is in our hearts. To see if we will come forth as gold, to see if we will be true to the HOLY SPIRIT or to go the way of men and their specific version of church.
If anyone wants to live by the SPIRIT and walk by the SPIRIT then they simply trust GOD to lead them and guide them—and that only comes by spending much time with HIM.
Great posting about the HOLY SPIRIT.
April 26th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Hi Sylvia,
I think the “separation” started at that particular PDI “Celebration” back in the mid 90s when CJ announced that he was taking over the meeting from the Holy Spirit. The final divorce decree came through in 2002.
……………………………….
Here are two versions – the first is before 2002 and the second is after 2002 – of a particular portion of a SGM church’s “Statement of Faith”. Notice any changes?
#1
Baptism in the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit empowers believers for Christian witness and service. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are theologically distinct experiences, though the latter may occur in close proximity to the former. The promise of the Father is freely available to all who believe in Jesus Christ, thereby enabling them to exercise the powers of the age to come in ministry and mission. As portrayed in the Books of Acts, speaking in tongues is a common and immediate evidence, but not a necessary evidence, that the gift of the Holy Spirit has been received. The Holy Spirit desires to continually fill each believer with power to witness, and imparts his supernatural gifts for the edification of the Body and the work of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today and are to be earnestly desired and practiced. They are essential in the mission of the Church in the world today.
#2
Empowered by the Spirit
In addition to effecting regeneration and sanctification, the Holy Spirit also empowers believers for Christian witness and service. While all genuine believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at conversion, the New Testament indicates the importance of an ongoing, empowering work of the Spirit subsequent to conversion as well. Being indwelt by the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit are theologically distinct experiences. The Holy Spirit desires to fill each believer continually with increased power for Christian life and witness, and imparts his supernatural gifts for the edification of the Body and for various works of ministry in the world. All the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work in the church of the first-century are available today, are vital for the mission of the church, and are to be earnestly desired and practiced.
April 26th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Esther,
Thank you for your comment above. You have revealed something that is so important – that is, the subtle changes that have taken place in SGM with regard to some very foundational issues such as how the Holy Spirit is viewed. This was revealed to us in care group quite unintentionally by one of the pastors last Fall. We were shocked to find out that SGM had modified its view of the Holy Spirit back in 2002 and no one in the congregation was told (as far as we know).
For those of you that are interested in reading more on what SGM (Jeff Purswell) has to say about the Holy Spirit, read this.
We must all be be Bereans and be watchful for subtle changes in doctrine.
April 26th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
This may sound nutty, but I can’t bear to read that paper from Jeff Purswell. I just tried. My heart and mind recoil when I read any official SGM literature. I’d bought so many books over the years and am slowly but surely throwing away all the SGM produced stuff as I come across it. GAH! I just don’t want that crap back in my head. It always seemed so right, but then I discovered just how wrong it is.
Thank you, though, for doing the hard work of documentation. I long for the day when the lid is blown off and SGM is exposed for the cesspool of twisted and extra-biblical nonsense it is.
April 26th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
OK, here the latest spin on the Eric Hugh/Keith Breault by the “apostle” Gene Emerson. For those closest to the Chesapeake brouhaha, we would love to hear your critique.
Here’s the link with the pertinent part starting around the 30 minute mark.
April 26th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
One more thing just in case you think you must listen for 30 minutes until you get to the Chesapeake part, just move the slider up to the 30 minute part and start listening from there.
April 26th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
How does GE’s sermon’s timeline match up with Esther and the others timeline?
April 26th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
They must truly believe the sheep are fools…
April 26th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Well, if our presupposition is that our pastors speak God’s words and decrees, much like the priests of the old covenant, then the sheep don’t have much room to question, do they? And when they do, the spotlighting begins, i.e. the pastors turn the questioning into the sheep’s pride and an independent spirit, ending into the focus being on the sheep and not the pastor. This “spotlighting” has worked pretty good for them.
April 26th, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Sylvia! I’m so glad to see what God has done in your life, although I’m sad for all you went through to get to this fresh pasture where you can graze freely. I can see that the Holy Spirit has imparted the gift of wisdom to you. It oozes through your posts like fresh anointing oil and I’m grateful for every word you’ve ever said here and for how you stood up and had your say in Chesapeake. You are a brave soldier! I know you have been through an awful lot (understatement). I just wanted to say I’m sorry I didn’t do more for you 12 or 13 years ago when we were friends. I had no idea how much you were hurting. You served me tirelessly and loved all of us with such devotion — and we never knew the depth of your pain. You are a remarkable woman of God.
“A Mother,” I am interceding for you and praying that God holds you and your son in His loving arms. Isaiah says “He gently leads those with young.” I believe 18 is young! May God bless you and care for you!
April 26th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
A question recently came up that I need help answering…
A woman I co-lead a homeschool group with told me that stories like those we’ve read here happen in all churches and that, while grievous, they are definitely not solely a SGM phenomenon. She has even said that there are many other denominations and churches with websites like this one (refuge). I asked for specifics, but she couldn’t give me any. Is this true?
She has defended our local SGM church here in my town and poo-pooed my concerns for those women in our group who attend there. Now, the fact that they are in OUR homeschool group (not SGM) is a positive sign to me that they are still open and thinking freely. That being the case, I want to warn them about the church they attend before they get in too deep, and my co-leader wants me not to. I realize this doesn’t fall under “Chesapeake” but for the fact that I used to attend the Chesapeake church. I just didn’t know quite where to ask this question.
Are there other websites like this one for other denominations?
April 26th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Can someone give me info on the richmond church i have friends there i have attended a few times. from reading gene sounds corrupt.
April 26th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I am a Chesapeake Sovereign Grace Pedestrian…I have fled that “Egypt”, have crossed the Red Sea, and am only looking back in concern for others left behind who are being brainwashed by a bunch of guys who call themselves leader, constantly prop themselves up, and continuously feed the people “doo doo” about how privileged they are. NOW: I HAVE JUST LISTENED TO GENE EMERSON’S MESSAGE FROM TODAY: I must say I have never personally witnessed, nor have ever heard of a church leader (Gene Emerson) placing a SPIN on an issue within a church like he has. I am shocked and saddened by this man’s lack of fear of our Lord, that he would turn the issue on its side like he did today, and feed the congregation of his church such “poop!” It makes me truly sick to my stomach that this man is allowed to speak at a pulpit on behalf of my Lord, Jesus Christ. IF ANYONE THOUGHT THAT THE PASTORS OF SOVEREIGN GRACE CHESAPEAKE WERE NOT ABOVE REPROACH, AND SHOULD RESIGN THEIR POSITIONS, THEN THIS MAN SHOULD BE LEADING THAT CHARGE! MR. EMERSON YOU HAVE CERTAINLY GRIEVED THE HOLY SPIRIT…I WILL PRAY FOR YOU…AND BESEECH YOU TO COME CLEAN TO YOUR CONGREGATION AND REPENT!
April 26th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
By the way…are we to believe that approximately 25% of Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake leaving over the past 3 months had nothing to do with the change? (and more will follow once the school year ends…as the “leaders” of that Church continue to woo those who are sitting on the fence by placing them in privileged positions of “leadership!”) This kind of cover up will only cause more to leave.
April 27th, 2009 at 8:46 am
I Would really like some info on the Kingsway midlothian church. im new and i have met a few people. everyone seems nice, but the pastor Gene i just got a bad vibe from him the first time i met him.
April 27th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Greener Pastures
Thank you for your perspective, being a former SG Chesapeake member. When I listened to the “apostles” message, I only heard his words without the context of knowing the Chesapeake context and 2 pastors Gene was referring to, Eric and Keith. I would love to hear where Gene’s words and reality part ways.
lostone
What would you like to know? I was one of the sheep at Kingsway back in the day but am still incognito because I still have friends who couldn’t handle the truth about SGM. One thing you can rely on is the VIBE you got when you first met him. I regrettably ran right past that vibe that I received from him the first few encounters I had with him. Go with your gut here. And yes the people are nice–but in SGM much of that is a created culture that often breaks down after one leaves the organization.
April 27th, 2009 at 9:32 am
A ”cesspool of twisted and extra-biblical nonsense” – i love that. I was at SG Ches for almost 15 years, and that pretty much sums it up accurately. You wouldn’t believe some of the stories I could tell, you wouldn’t believe it. The pastors in Ches are really whacked. They should all be summarily fired w/out cause or explanation. You’re outta here !!! And Gene is a nut – I had a conversation with him when he came down during the Ches blowup – and you wouldn’t believe what he told me regarding accountability of pastors – simply unbelievable. What a whack job – a true SGM cheerleader.
April 27th, 2009 at 9:41 am
Should i be worried about the safety of my kids? what are the starting point classes all about? if i start the classes is there going to be pressure to join? im asking questions because i have a “friend” that is a member. when we met this person was looking for a way out of the church, but was pulled back in. what is the view of dating outside the church? more questions later thanks.
April 27th, 2009 at 9:43 am
I wish we could come up with some solid solutions. I’ve seen it all at this point — from growing up in Dallas with the whole Bob Tilton mess to my SG Chesapeake experience to working for Pat Robertson to living in Charlotte where Jim Bakker and the gang once were. I’m so tired of seeing a wake of beautiful souls damaged practically beyond recognition by misguided leaders. This is not the abundant life Jesus came to give us!
Isn’t there something else we can do to help? Or are we waiting for the leadership of these churches to recognize their error? Why can’t they see it? I’m so discouraged!
Millertime, do I know you?
April 27th, 2009 at 9:43 am
millertime
Thanks for your input into this whole spin machine. If you would elaborate a little on both what you witnessed at Chesapeake and especially, for my sanity, what Gene told you about the accountability of pastors story. If you would feel more comfortable via email, Jim please allow Millertime my email address. I think the more these things come into the light, the more likely things will change or people will feel free to vote with their feet.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:03 am
lostone
“Should you be worried about your kids?” That depends. Physically, no way! Spiritually and emotionally is other story. IMHO, over time the subtly of SGM leaves its mark of the “sin-focus” and the subtle and not so subtle pressure of conforming to the cookie-cutter prototype that trickles down from Gaithersburg down to the “troops in the field.” In my experience the pressure to conform was never direct with me; it was masterfully executed as a undercurrent which became VERY clear. They have a way of marginalizing and shunning and praising and not praising. including and not including. They reward approved behavior and punish “bad” behavior. They are absolutely the best at it!
Staring Points class: My advise is NOT to start and you’ll be fine.
But I have that feeling that you probably think you can navigate through it without being sucked in, right? Well, I thought that too. It took me years to wake up–But then again, I am a slow learner! 
April 27th, 2009 at 10:48 am
lostone: The M.O. of SGC is to pursue all who plan to flee a member church and do what ever they can to woo that individual back. In Ches. they have resorted to offering positions in leadership (of course, unpaid) to prevent more people from leaving, especially those who might possess any following both in and out of the SGC. This is most likely why your friend was “pulled back” when he was attempting to leave. Can anyone say “CULT?”
April 27th, 2009 at 11:06 am
Millertime – I am wondering if I know you too. What years did you attend the sess pool known as SGM Ches?
April 27th, 2009 at 11:10 am
In my experience the pressure to conform was never direct with me; it was masterfully executed as a undercurrent which became VERY clear. They have a way of marginalizing and shunning and praising and not praising. including and not including. They reward approved behavior and punish “bad” behavior. They are absolutely the best at it!
That is it exactly. God forbid you are not standard issue Christian #1, 2 or 3. If you deviate at all from what the standard is, they do their best to force you into their cookie cutter mold. Insidious is what it is. I got the very subtle pressure when I lived with a pastor’s family for a time. NIGHTMARE. I was often rebuked for not being just like the one single woman everyone in leadership upheld as the ideal. I was rarely rebuked for actual sins. Usually the rebukes were for the wife’s preferences, the way she wanted me to behave rather than for anything slightly biblical. It’s a baffling process that just sucks the spirit right out of you. It wasn’t until I was well out of their house that I even realized what the heck they were doing to me.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Gratefully Dissillusioned,
I took a moment, as you suggested, and listened to the sermon from King’s Way yesterday. All I can say, is that if I were from Fredericksburg, I would be highly insulted. I wrote Mr. Emerson, and asked what he meant by the statement 42:12 minutes into his sermon, “because of your gifts, obedience and sacrifice, now there is a healthy church in Fredericksburg.” I asked if he was stating that there were no, healthy bible based, Christ centered churches there. That is his remark verbatim. I am anxious to see if he responds…..
MiMI
April 27th, 2009 at 11:43 am
Mimi,
Nice catch. I totally missed that. The subtleties are amazing and illustrative of the core thinking.
April 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am
P.S.
I was amazed also at how the explainaion of Chesapeake was gone over. Sounds a little like “me thinketh he doeth protest too much”. Went way over and beyond trying to explain what happened. Fear produces rambling and repetitive statements. It appears to me that things are not as cool, calm and collected as man tries to make it appear.
When we know we have heard from G-D, are obedient to HIS word and the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I believe we find and feel no need to constantly explain or defend our actions, as we rest in the peace of the Lord. But, when we as men, try repeatedly to tell our story over and over, are we then, trying to convince ourselves as well as others that we are doing what is right in the sight of God?
MiMi
April 27th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Mimi, you are scary perceptive. Thanks so much for helping me filter out the spin. I so want to believe the best, but have been been fooled too many times with spin, until a dear friend of mine was badly hurt.
April 27th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
G.D.
I believe we are to believe the best. After all, our heavenly Father, sees the best in us. HE ever looks upon our potential and the good we have in us. I believe also though, as the word instructs us, we are to use wisdom. We are to seek truth, and NO one can give us complete truth except our Lord and HIS Holy Spirit,. When I am confused, I always ask that “truth be revealed” to me. Hosea received these instructions from the Lord when he was confused about Gomer and her actions and purpose in his life.
When I pray that prayer, and then get into the word, HE always takes me to a place to erase the confusion and give me confidence in HIM. Then, when I know I have heard from HIM, the peace comes and it doesn’t matter what man says to me.
Believe me, this has taken me many years of prayer and healing from an abusive childhood to be able to stand stong in this. But after decades of lies, deception and pain, I have grown to recognize and trust the peace of the word. You are doing fine. Don’t let the enemy rob you of the work HE is doing in your heart and life. You are stronger, wiser than you believe. YOU are His, bought and paid for: a daughter of the king. YOU ARE DADDY’S GIRL……!!
P.S. Those years of abuse were used by HIM to bring me into an incredibly intimate relationship with HIM. I can look back and be so thankful for those years of pain. You too, will one day be able to thank HIM for the path HE has taken you on to draw you closer to HIM.
April 27th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
i would like to get info on why S.P is no longer a pastor at kingsway say god was calling him back to secular work sound like bs to me.
April 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Lostone–
You have a bad vibe. Your friend has a bad vibe. Why would you consider it, then? There are tons of good churches in Richmond. I could give you some ideas of where to start/
Why pursue being a part of a church you are worried about?
April 27th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
RT
You make an excellent point, but SGM is enticing during the seduction stage of its relationship with new-comers. It can be hard to walk away, even with the bad “vibes.” MANY get seduced and later feel trapped, some highly educated and otherwise savvy.
lostone
The reason Steve Patterson stepped down is unknown to me. I heard the spin as you did, but know little else. He was “sent/called” from Brent’s old church ( I think) to the pastor’s college, then “called” to Kingsway, then “called” to the secular world. Mmmm, things that make you go Hummmmmmmm.
April 27th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
GDfS–
I agree that it is enticing. So is alot of bad stuff. Adultery is enticing, eating five Quarter Pounders is enticing, spending more money than we have is enticing.
If we make rational decisions based on feelings, we are headed for trouble.
Why all of a sudden are we as a people so easily enticed? Why do our emotions dictate where and with whom we worship? Is this why we “feel called” places?
30 years, and others, please could you prove to me from the Bible that we are called to one group of believers and not to another and must stay there until we “feel called” to worship somewhere else?
“In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. “ 2 Timothy 4
If you “feel” weird about a man or a situation, listen carefully. Why is this any different than “feeling called” to a certain church?
April 27th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
RT,
Ha ha, love the enticing thing, but SGM felt like heaven on earth to me at first, during the seduction phase. For me logic and reality were trumped by SG perception and presentation. They are very good at that.
Like it or not, we as humans, feel our surroundings and process them in the context of our neediness and history and family dynamic and countless other things. We enter a “church” too often with our guards down, and also too often suffer dearly for it, BUT we do. We expect authenticity and honesty and love, especially in our early spiritual experience, only again too often to be used, abused, and confused. That is the story of many, regardless of the 20/20 vision of looking back and for the non-feeling rational observer. History is replete with examples!
April 27th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
GDfS
Excellent points. We tend to look for the buzz words of evangelicalism, the music, the books, that signal that we are in a safe place and we let our guard down.
So glad you are free!
April 27th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
There was a mom on here the other day who accused someone from Kingsway of abuse, and also provided a link to an incarcerated individual.
Of course, there are no verified details, this is certainly not proven. It should remind all of us, though, that we need to be viligent to protect the children in our churches.
Most churches have printed and well thought out child safety policies.
But as long as KW is running a tight ship, with at least TWO UNRELATED adults (abusers are often connected to an enabler), at least one female, with any group of kids, you are probably alright.
Most child sexual abuse is committed by males, it important NEVER to have children in the care of two males or two teenagers without a female around.
This is to protect the men as well as the children. Many sicko parents look for likely places to bring lawsuits…we live in an unredeemed world. Two men in a nursery are sitting ducks for these wackos, and juries often prejudge a male who works around children.
Ask to see their child safety policy. If they cannot produce a writen one, or if you do not see it implemented, run to another church in your area.
April 27th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Around 28:00 or so, Gene says “we are not a corporation”….
…thought that was interesting….
April 27th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Ellie
What is your take on that comment?
April 27th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Ellie, why indeed did Gene say they are not a corporation????
Could he be trying to hide SGM’s true identity?
Does he think if one says something often enough and loud enough it will be believed?
Could it be to throw us off the track in knowing how to affect change from within SGM?
Could it have been to make the sheep forget what The Quizzler said recently concerning how to bring change within a corporate structure?
After all…………….. the bottom line is the bottom line!
N.S.L.B.
April 28th, 2009 at 1:22 am
Brothers and Sisters,
I have felt stirred to write this.
Yesterday I went to the site of Gene Emerson’s Sunday message given to the
King’s Way Church. I was shocked to hear his version of what has transpired
in the decision for Eric Hughes to come back to the Chesapeake Church as
Senior Pastor. The timeline doesn’t make any sense neither does the assurance
that these changes are only to do with these men praying months and months
ago and God showing them that they had other good works to go to other than
what they were currently doing. It makes it sound very spiritual and very nice. I am filled with fear for their souls. There appears to be much twisting and cover-up going on in this movement. Acts chapter 20 “…from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Not only am I concerned about the twisting of situations, but I am also concerned because
of the ordeal itself that I went through. It is a frightening thing to think that
doctrine can be changed in this movement at any time and then subtly put upon
God’s people without their knowledge. It is also a frightening thing that a change
in doctrine can be done by any pastor. It was not sound doctrine that was being put upon me and the other women on “Separation.” Since then I have also become aware that this movement has made changes in other areas of doctrine without our knowledge (Example: The Calvinist position years ago that was so subtly brought in, and the position on the Holy Spirit in 2002,) this is when I knew for certain I could never be a part of Sovereign Grace Ministries again. It is a very dangerous place. I fear for the future of this movement. What will happen when the movment continues to age. Men will die off. Will there be protection for God’s people? There is no doubt that within any movement you will find differences in doctrinal position, but in this movement the people are controlled heavily by the leadership. This is not healthy. We must always walk in the “Spirit.” We must have discernment. We are not taught to use our own discernment in this movement, but we must!!! Had myself and the three couples not aggressively pursued confronting the new doctrine, it would have been completed on paper and then continued to be taught and implemented and forced on women in the church. No one knows how difficult it was to fight this. Know one knows how forceful and strong of a position these pastors were taking. I am very very glad they backed down finally, but the truth is it took exposing. I do not think that exposing someone is truly repentance on their part, and especially if they then go out and twist the circumstances to sound like their stepping down or their making changes is for any other reason than the actual thing that transpired. This all reminds me too much of the President Clinton days.
Proverbs 6:16-19
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
What is spoken behind closed doors has not been matching up with what
is spoken to the church. There has been a pattern of this throughout the Chesapeake ordeal as well as with what others have shared concerning situations in other churches in the movement. I have been baffled over and over again as I hear these versions of what has happened. I do not understand how these men
are able to lay their heads down at night with a clear conscience before God
and man. My fear is that this is really “lying to the Holy Spirit.” We must
remember this account in scripture, and remember this was a “New Testament
Church.” They were under “Grace.” God still requires truth and justice.
Acts 5:1-11
<< Acts 4 | Acts 5 | Acts 6 >>
Ananias and Sapphira
5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of
property, 2 and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back for himself some
of the proceeds and brought only a part of it and laid it at the
apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your
heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of
the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain
your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it
that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to
men but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and
breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The
young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing
what had happened. 8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you [1]
sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.” 9 But
Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the
Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your
husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Immediately
she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men
came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her
beside her husband. 11 And great fear came upon the whole church and
upon all who heard of these things.”
I do not know how these other men are able to sit by and allow these twistings of words all for the sake of holding together a “corporation.” There seems to be a problem with being a “people pleaser.” It is time to be a “God pleaser.” Matthew 10:28 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [1]
Some of you Pastors in Sovereign Grace Ministries need to stand up for
what is “TRUTH.” Is it really worth any of this? “Unless the Lord builds
the Church, they that labor, labor in vain.” You are accountable to God
first. Your fellow brothers need for you to speak the truth to them.
It is not okay to stand by in silence. If you are standing by when the Words
are spoken and they are not the full truth and you do not speak up, then
you are showing you are in agreement to those listening. Whether you speak
up or not, you have given your gesture and seal of approval on what is being
said.
Paul Speaks to the Ephesian Elders Acts 20:17-38
17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the
church to come to him. 18 And when they came to him, he said to them:
“You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the
first day that I set foot in Asia, 19 serving the Lord with all
humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the
plots of the Jews; 20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you
anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house
to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward
God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I am
going to Jerusalem, constrained by [2] the Spirit, not knowing what
will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me
in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 24 But I do
not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I
may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord
Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now,
behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about
proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. 26 Therefore I testify
to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I
did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Pay
careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy
Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, [3] which
he obtained with his own blood. [4] 29 I know that after my departure
fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and
from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to
draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be alert, remembering
that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone
with tears. 32 And now I commend you to God and to the word of his
grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance
among all those who are sanctified. 33 I coveted no one’s silver or
gold or apparel. 34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to
my necessities and to those who were with me. 35 In all things I have
shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and
remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more
blessed to give than to receive.’”
36 And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with
them all. 37 And there was much weeping on the part of all; they
embraced Paul and kissed him, 38 being sorrowful most of all because of
the word he had spoken, that they would not see his face again. And
they accompanied him to the ship.
Never in scripture do you see the Apostle Paul willing to go along with anything
that was doctrinally off. He stood up against the other disciples on occasion.
It is written out plainly in scripture whenever he opposed them. There was never
a cover-up or twisted story about what really happened. They put it out there
just like it was, and how wonderful to see the integrity in that.
I pray that the pastors of Sovereign Grace Ministries read this and seek
the Lord. This is so so very serious. People’s spiritual and physical lives
are at stake.
We must pray!!!
April 28th, 2009 at 9:59 am
I always find this strange how Gene Emerson talks about bringing the “gospel” to people in Fredericksburg with this new church plant. This is an organization that usually doesn’t reach and convert non believers according to people’s reports I have read both on here and SGM Survivors. Some have indicated they get most of their members by “poaching” from other churches when they set up a new church plants.
I am sure their source of members in his new church plant will be similar to what has happened with other plants.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Reformed Teacher, in response to your comment,
“Of course, there are no verified details, this is certainly not proven. It should remind all of us, though, that we need to be viligent to protect the children in our churches.”
I am not sure why you made this statement. I have thought about this since I saw your comment and I have tried very hard to not take it personally. This case certainly is proven. This man, revealed in the link, was charged and convicted of sexually abusing children and he did attend the Richmond Church. This man is still currently serving time in a prison facility near Richmond. My motivation for leaving the link and screaming out, for the first time, was for some understanding, my heart is still breaking. My son recently was released from the mental ward at a hospital. The emotions and betrayal that I feel and that I am sure he feels are more than I can ever express in words.
I did do what I thought was right in protecting my son, I contacted the local police in Richmond and the pastors of the Richmond and Virginia Beach church, in 1988, to find out if they knew of any reason why I shouldn’t allow my son to spend time with this man. This man befriended my son through another little boy we had met at Celebration East 1988. This man used this other little boy as a reason to have my son come and visit him in Richmond. He was “helping” care for this other boy and would ask us to allow our son to visit them up in Richmond. Up until this time my son was an innocent young boy, only 11. They, the pastors and police knew of no reason why we shouldn’t allow the friendship and I don’t challenge that. I don’t believe that they knew at this point who this man was. This all took place between the years 1988 and 1994ish, way before Megan’s Law. I can’t say that the church could of prevented what happened to my son but they did nothing to find all potential victims once this monster was revealed. Who in their right mind wouldn’t find and contact everyone everyone known to be involved with this guy?
I was in contact with the Richmond church in 1995 and ‘96 after my son was injured, I wanted to get in touch with Barry, the now convicted felon. My son had been injured and was seriously hurt I wanted to let this man know so that he could be praying for him. Now this was all after he had been charged, but did the church secretary or Gene Emerson even then try to contact us to let us know about the charges that had brought on this man? NO! Even then I explained who I was and this man’s relationship to our family and my son. We had lived in VA Beach and my son would spend weekends, and later lived with this man for a short period of time. I say this to say that the leadership and other members of that church knew my son, as well as my husband and me. They also knew that my son was exposed to this man and they never tried to find us. My son was part of the youth group in Richmond and attended the church, this man served in the youth group. All that I am saying is when it all came out, my son was still of an age where we, his parents, could help him or at least try. We were robbed of any chance to press charges or seek help for our son. We didn’t find out about any of this until 1998 and then quite by accident! We had moved back to our home state but it turns out according to the previous leadership of the Virginia Church that they were never made aware of the situation up in Richmond. Why? I seriously find this hard to believe, why wouldn’t all churches in the vicinity be made aware? They must of known at some point. I can’t prove that, but it is beyond me to think of any reason why Gene wouldn’t make others aware. You are right about the precautions that need to happen when caring for our young children. I know that since this happened SGM as a whole has made great efforts to screen individuals caring for our children and that’s a good thing. I am still mourning that I didn’t protect my son, though God knows I tried. I listened to my pastors who said that I had nothing to fear instead of listening to what God was saying to me. Please keep my son in your prayers. A Mother
April 28th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Dear A Mother,
I am praying for you and your son, for the mercies and love of God to penetrate your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. I am so sorry for you all and pray Is. 61 for you – Jesus came to heal the brokenhearted. Run into His loving hearts and receive His wonderful love and healing. Take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ and please try hard not to receive the condemnation that is totally from the enemy of God, satan himself. I hope that you too are in counseling with a solid Christian counselor who can truly help you in this your time of need. God bless you and your family.
April 28th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Dearest A Mother!
I am sorry if I offended you in anyway, please forgive me! I cannot, in my worst nightmare, imagine what this is like for you and your son. I am so very very sorry for your pain and betrayal. Searching my heart, I suspect I would be tempted to murder anyone that hurt my precious son. That you are sane is a testimony to the grace of God.
The link you provided to the incarcerated person had no details as to the case at all. So when I said what I said, I meant to acknowledge that to the person asking about the Richmond church that there had been an allegation of abuse, but that it had not been proven on this blog.
What I should have said, and what I truly meant, was that there had been a mother (you) who had claimed sexual abuse at the church, and that he should contact you for clarification–none of us could give it.
My response was clumsily done, and not well thought out, and hurtful to you.
Please forgive me.
I will pray for you and your family. I am so sorry.
April 28th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
“I was in contact with the Richmond church in 1995 and ‘96 after my son was injured, I wanted to get in touch with Barry, the now convicted felon. My son had been injured and was seriously hurt I wanted to let this man know so that he could be praying for him. Now this was all after he had been charged, but did the church secretary or Gene Emerson even then try to contact us to let us know about the charges that had brought on this man? NO! Even then I explained who I was and this man’s relationship to our family and my son. ”
Unbelievable. God have mercy. How many others were there?
April 28th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
To A Mother,
you wrote, “I listened to my pastors who said that I had nothing to fear instead of listening to what God was saying to me.”
Did the Lord warn you about letting your son spend time with this man? What did God say to you that gave you any indication that it wasn’t such a good idea?
Do NOT blame yourself for this. You are not getting any condemnation from the Lord so do not blame yourself. I do hope that you are seeking counseling also like Walking in Freedom said.
Prayers for you…and I cry with you also.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Mimi:
See this link
http://www.gracechurchoffreder.....p?id=27353
Looks like a pretty healthly church to me. Reformed and Charismatic. How arrogant of SGM to think that they are they only ones God can use to plant a healthly church in Fredericksburg? Sad but typical.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Dear A Mother,
I am so very very sorry for all your son and you and your family have experienced and endured. The painful discovery of it all, I cry with you…there is no pain as when our children are horribly abused. We are praying for you all…praying the love of God will saturate your sons deepest wounds,fears and scars……..and that we will see the day that he walks in wholeness and restoration…our Jesus came to bind up the brokenhearted and set the captives free– I will be praying that for your son.—
In the structure of SGM it seems they give little regard to sexual abuses and activity of perversions (perhaps this is because as they love to proclaim “I am the worst sinner I know)—-paired with the resistance to Holy SPirit—leaves Gods people vulnerable to becoming casualties,repeatedly……..instead of walking in the Light together and hearing His Voice, and truly discerning good from evil as we are empowered to do by Christ dwelling in us and Holy Spirits leading.
Yes, it is unnerving to think the pastors donot communicate with one another when these things occur—or if they do—they keep a code of silence (I suppose for the veneer of the perfect SGMness). The great lack of integrity and discernment on the part of Gene Emerson for not revealing to you and other parents all they knew—is a travesty. And he doesnot learn from experience. He and other SGM pastors donot genuinely hear,much less discern cries for help from their flock. I remember one of the “3 couples” in Chesapeake, during ‘Esthers’ trial, kept hearing the Lord say “God is not mocked”…………and He IS exposing the evil they wink their eye at.
Jeremiah 6:14 “They dress the wound of My people as though it were not serious.”
SGM—– This is sorrowfully serious.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Quizzler,
I would say it’s all of the above! (in your comment 4.27.09 at 11:53 pm)
GDfSGM, my take is that Gene has been doing a little reading lately…. and apparently feels that some SGMers have been also…
April 28th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Good scripture Waters….right on!
April 28th, 2009 at 11:36 pm
Gene Emerson should be ashamed of himself! How in the world this man remains in his position is totally beyond me. The only reason I believe he remains in the position he has, is that CJ and the other “Apostles” (and yes, I use this term very loosly here) know very well that they have a stooge in him.
April 29th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Sylvia is right. These men are liars. They first deceive themselves, and then feel no compunction about deceiving others, since their true god is SGM. They’re just a brood of vipers in sheep’s clothing. I have no patience with any of them. They need to be fired, and quickly. Question is, who’s going to do it, and how could it happen ? It can’t, and that’s the sad part. They’re just not accountable. The only thing I can think of is that they’re exposed in the public media, and more people stop supporting the church. A big article in a local newspaper would probably be the best thing for them. Like the people who were hurt badly, they could tell their story to the public, and then word would get around in the Christian community about these deceivers and liars.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Mother-
I’m so sorry about all that has happened to you and your family….
peace to you-mm
April 29th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
You know…
After mother posted, I received emails from some of the good folks here…
“Do you know who she is?” “Could you give me her email address so I can encourage her?”.
You know, Christians loving each other…
CJ, you know my name, my number, and my email address.
Where the hell are you?
April 30th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Jim,
Great question! CJ (and all the leaders at SGM) – How can you not respond to mother? How can you not act and show Christ’s love? Where is the compassion and desire to minister to mother and her son? Where is your pastor’s heart? Where is the humility that would allow you to see there are major problems in SGM? Does your inaction glorify the Lord?
To the other “Big Dog” leaders who are T4G with CJ (Ligon Duncan, John Piper, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, etc) – call on CJ to address this. By your standing in the Christian community and by your endorsement of CJ/SGM by joining with him and endorsing his books you have effectively endorsed Sovereign Grace Ministries. If you stand on the sidelines you are just as guilty of the damage that is being done by SGM. There are exhaustive examples on this site and others to indicate there is a massive problem that should be getting attention. Please, please call on CJ to act now.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:58 am
I had missed some posts and was doing some back reading and I have a question after reading Fred’s post:
Certainly, KB contributed to the problems and made things worse especially with the new doctrine on separation that he was writing, which I must add with the approval of Jeff Purswell, Gene Emerson and others.
Are Purswell, Emerson, et al crediting Keith with authoring the “separation doctrine”?
This doctrine was in my sgm church at the latest by 2005 – 2006. It’s got to be coming from the top and not just confined to one “wayward” pastor in the Chesapeake church – what does everyone think?
May 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Yep, and how do they fix all of this? Well, in Sept. Keith will be under the “covering/mentoring” of the “apostle” Gene for 6-9 months at Kingsway, and the plan is to then launch Keith out to be the sr. pastor of another church plant, after Gene fixes all that is missing in Keith. I am NOT encouraged here!
Kind of looks like what they do with wayward priest in another branch of “Christendom.”
May 6th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Ellie– The “new doctrine” where the bottom line was, women were called to not separate from a husband under ANY circumstance (”Some are called to suffer in this manner”) was written by Keith and as he stated Jeff Purswell was the overseer of this. He was preparing to institute this at Chesapeake last fall when the “3 Couples” began the confrontation and intervention process. However, already, he and Brett had threatened three women with church discipline if they didnot follow their (the pastors) orders to welcome their abusive spouse back into the home. All of these three women have since left the church. —Since your church had already instituted this policy (the same???) back in ‘05-’06—as you say, it appears this destructive policy IS being directed from Gaithersberg. Do they go church-by-church to watch where and how it will fly and take root??????? Perhaps that is why no one, Emerson, or KB (or Purswell or CJ) were not alarmed at Keiths attempt to force-feed such a dangerous ’doctrine’. No overseers or leaders in Gaithersberg have taken any responsibility for this man-made dangerous doctrine—does that mean they actually approve of it and endorse it and have plans to slip it in somehow?? Dangerous……….
May 6th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Ellie, you may have just provided us all with the missing link. Some have thought all along that CJ, Purswell, et al were trying to see how it would float in Chesapeake using Keith as the scapegoat. (At that time, Chesapeake was one of their larger churches.) If it floated without any problems (waves so to speak) then this dangerous doctrine would be passed onto the other SGM churches. Keith just happened???? to fall into their web.
It may still be a very dangerous and possibly “not dead” doctrine. Because of the negative attention it brought, did they just put it on the back burner? Obviously, they did not stop this doctrine on their on but were pressured to disavow it because of Esther and the 3 couples. Very dangerous! People in SGM churches – wake up and be alert!! One very loved, respected and popular English teacher in Chesapeake was asked to read it….did he see any red flags or did he approve it??? I do not know. Quizzler, where are you? So many questions……
May 6th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Fred,
I checked back in my notes and this doctrine was in our church in 2006.
Specifically, “The bible doesn’t give a category for people to be married and not living together.
May 6th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
How does smg view members who date outside the church?
May 6th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Ellie said: ”This doctrine was in my sgm church at the latest by 2005 – 2006. It’s got to be coming from the top and not just confined to one “wayward” pastor in the Chesapeake church – what does everyone think?”
Yes Ellie, I think you are absolutely right, this very dangerous doctrine must have been from the top. If your church had this doctrine in 2006, then it really isn’t new in SGM. Thank you so much for revealing this info.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
lostone said:
“How does smg view members who date outside the church?”
Well first of all realize that SGM typically frowns on dating and pushes the courtship model. This is the group that has Josh Harris who wrote the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” as their senior pastor of their “flagship” church Covenant Life Church. This courtship approach promotes what they call purposeful relationships, i.e. relationships only with the intent of marriage.
Thus having a dating type of relationship before one is ready for marriage is discourage. Though there intentions may be well, this emphasis has caused a number of problems that many times they don’t want to acknowledge. There also is an expectation that one typically shouldn’t court for a long period of time etc.
With the above being the case I am sure they would frown on dating an outsider even more so than they would another SGM member.
May 7th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Dating outside the SGM church: In my former SGM church there was an unwritten rule that you only “court” within the church. Those who dare to step outside of this boundary line (and there are those who did) are definitely frowned upon (including their parents who are frowned upon) for the most part. The reason being, the outsider has not been taught in the same way and frankly, there is the unspoken belief that all other churches are inferior.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:51 am
I have been corrected. The belief in my SGM church that all other churches are inferior was not unspoken.
May 7th, 2009 at 9:15 am
“The belief in my SGM church that all other churches are inferior was not unspoken.”
Exactly -
“What is deficient in your heart that you would want to bond with someone who is not under the same teaching?”
(With the belief that even courting outside SGM was a potential opportunity for disunity in the body.)
Odd to say the least.
May 7th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Yea, SGChes has/had the same belief about dating, and was very strongly frowned upon. I remember when JH’s book came out about kissing dating goodbye – I thought how convenient that we wrote that book after he was married. That’s like reading a book on how to raise children from an author who never had children. Give me a break ! After we started leaving SGChes, one of my daughters asked me about dating, and I told her dating was ok with me depending on the circumstances and on the timing as she gets older, and she told me that I was wrong, that SGChes didn’t allow that. That really broke my heart, and that was one more sign of the damage that had not been done to my family while we there. What’s worse is my own guilt for being sucked into that vortex myself, and letting that mess infiltrate my own family. It still breaks my heart to this day. Now that we’re in a better church, I hope that my daughter will not be afraid to want to date appropriately from time to time, with some fine young man. They’re out there, I’ve met a few, and I hope she finds a good one some day. It would bring me no greater joy than to have a happily married daughter.
May 7th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
millertime
Love the word choice of “vortex” that you use. It paints a vivid picture of what SGM is like. The thing about it is that with most Vortexes (doubt that is the proper plural of vortex) it is very obvious that you’re in one being sucked along no matter how hard you try to escape.
However, with SGM, the VORTEX is so subtle initially that you are totally being pulled along by your own volition, or so it seems. When you finally realize what’s happening, you find much of your social network and identity so entrenched with the SG machine, that you too often just go along for another season. Some continue to go along for years; others, just KNOW that they must escape no matter what the cost. Only to realize that once out and detoxed, healing and wholeness, and freedom in Christ begin to take root.
For some of us, the vortex keep us for decades; for others, not so long. Prasie God that there is a sabboth rest for His people, and that rest isn’t found in chasing our tails in the SG machine or any other religous machine. LIFE is in HIM, no matter where we find ourselves at 10am on Sunday mornings.
May 7th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
Millertime,
I can understand how you feel about your daughter. Having 3 kids who are young adults now, I wish for them to have their own faith, to hear from the Lord themselves, to get His mind on important matters such as dating and marriage, and then making decisions without fear. In my experience, PDI/SGM did not teach this well. There was too much control, too much fear of making mistakes. I’ve seen my kids learn more from making a few mistakes (because they have been redeemed by God) than what they could ever learn by simply “doing as they are told”. Also, their being freed from the need to be perfect in every way has not led them to license, but to love and a desire to follow the Lord in a deep way. So, we don’t seek perfect kids, just kids who follow a perfect God, in freedom and grace.
You have been a good dad to get your daughter our of the SGM machine. God will be faithful to take care of her!
May 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Canary,
Nice to see you still on your perch, singing beautifully.
May 7th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Hey G.D.! My laptop has died, so I have to get to an empty computer in my all-techie family, which isn’t an easy thing, I can tell you. So I’m popping in and out when I can. You’ll be glad to know that my kitty has been pretty docile these past weeks, as he cannot deny nor defend the practices of SGM being noted on this blog recently. I think he’s lost some of his nine lives through sheer exasperation that he can no longer explain his position with any lucidity.
I, on the other hand, am flying free and chirping joyfully in gratefulness to our loving and faithful God. Gotta run. My daughter needs her laptop. The Lord’s blessings to everyone reading here! He is so GREAT!!!
May 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Millertime
You might find my blog of interest where I critique Harris’s IKDG philosophy.
Harris wrote what he wrote based on being a teenager and was something he had to do (kiss dating goodbye) due to his circumstances. It always has surprised me why so many people blindly accepted what might have been right for him to do as a teenager should be the norm for all singles despite their age. Harris wrote his book as more of a testimonial but too many people took it to be a handbook.
Of course one can’t blame Harris for this culture. Though Harris may have championed the “kissing dating goodbye” philosophy SGM has been practicing it pretty much since their inception. It was sad that Harris didn’t share all the problems it has caused over the years when he wrote his book to give it more balance.
Canary
My thought is that “kissing dating goodbye” usually leads to singles learning to avoid relating to those of the opposite sex vs. learning how to do it. This sounds like what you were saying happened with you. Fear of making mistakes sounds like a good description. I also think pastors heard what they wanted to hear about how well IKDG “worked”
I am sure that pat of the problem with the IKDG philosophy is the SGM culture where questioning is discouraged. I am sure it could implemented in a much more constructive manner when people can question and point out he problems and it be implemented in a non legalistic manner. It really shocks me when one imposes something designed more for teenagers on older singles.
I am starting to read Carolyn McCulley’s book “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” In the introduction she talks about a group of women she read Josh Harris’s book and embraced what he had to say. Then she says in a few paragraphs later, that (doing the math) 7 years later most of the women who studied the book with her still weren’t married.
I will be curious to read and see if she even asks if there might be a cause and effect between “kissing dating goodbye” and her and others possible “kissing marriage goodbye.” That is did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to possibly “kissing marriage goodbye?” Josh Harris wrote the forward to the books so I doubt she asks this question. I do know that in at lot of churches there are more single men then women which could lead to some of the women not getting married but McCulley said most of the women still weren’t married 7 years later.
One blog says she does some men bashing in her book, especially older single men. I wonder if she has ever asked if the “kissing dating goodbye” culture has lead to some these older men to be so passive about finding a mate.
May 7th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Millertime said: “What’s worse is my own guilt for being sucked into that vortex myself, and letting that mess infiltrate my own family. It still breaks my heart to this day.”
Miller, I am right there with you. I have had days (and still do) with such regret and guilt over this very thing. Days of tears and deep sorrow over falling for the lies and allowing their standards, their truths (which were not God’s truths but truths made by man) to affect my family, my marriage, and the way I parented. There have been some days when I didn’t think I could go on because of the guilt and the regret that I have had of falling for the deception and how it affected us. Always looking for sin in myself and in my family. Pointing out the sin, looking for more. So far off the track of the true Gospel. So far off the track of the true Jesus Christ. But then the Lord pours out His grace and mercy and reminds me of His promise …He will restore what the locusts have devoured. He is faithful and I am believing and trusting that He is restoring what has been stolen from us! God’s timing is perfect and often it is a process, may not always look the way I want it to YET but the day is coming when we will see the full restoration!! I am already seeing such blessing and good fruit from leaving our SGM church. God is changing me and is bringing me back to who Jesus is and why He died for me. As one friend reminded me recently, He died because He loves us so much. Yes we were sinners (now we are saints) but the truth is it was His LOVE for us! Our God is faithful and He always keeps His promises!!
May 7th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Canary, thanks for the quick update. Glad you’re flying free and the cat is still in the cage–where he belongs
BTW, TigerDirect.com is a great place to buy a good new laptop at extremely good prices, but I am sure your tech savvy family already knows that.
May 7th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Millertime,
Have your daughter read “Boundaries in Dating”, by Drs. Henry Cloud & John Townsend. I find it’s a great book to help Christian singles ”detox” from the indoctrination of “I Kissed Dating Goodbye.”
Here’s a quote from the book…
“A few years back I was doing a seminar for singles in the Midwest when the question came from the floor, “Dr. Cloud, what is the biblical position on dating?” At first, I thought I had misheard the question, so I asked the woman to repeat it. And the question came out the same as the first time.
“What do you mean, ‘the biblical position’? ” I asked.
“Well, do you think that dating is a biblical thing to do?” the woman explained.
Once I heard her question, I thought she was kidding, but I soon realized she was not. I had heard people ask about the biblical position on capital punishment or euthanasia, but never on dating.
“I do not think the Bible gives a ‘position’ on dating,” I said. “Dating is an activity that people do, and as with a lot of other things, the Bible does not talk about it. What the Bible does talk about is being a loving, honest, growing person in whatever you do. So, I would have to say that the biblical position on dating has much more to do with the person you are and are becoming than whether or not you date. The biblical position on dating would be to date in a holy way.
“In fact, God grows people up through dating relationships in the same way that he grows them up in many other life activities. The question is not whether or not you are dating. The questions are more along the lines of “Who are you in your dating and who are you becoming in your dating? What is the fruit of your dating for you and for the people that you date? How are you treating them? What are you learning?’ And a host of other issues that the Bible is very clear about. It is mainly about your character growth and how you treat people.”
“So, you think it is okay to date?” she pressed.
“Of course, I do, but it is only okay to date within biblical guidelines, which by the way are not burdensome. They will save your life and help you to make sure you end up with a good person to marry,” I said, chuckling on the inside about how often Christians want a rule. I thought this was the end of it until the same question kept coming up around the country whenever I would speak to singles. Over and over again, I was asked if dating were an okay thing to do or not. I was curious about why people were asking the same question.
So, one day, I asked where these questions were coming from. I was told that a movement was arising from a book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris. The premise of the book is that dating is not a good idea, and many people were giving it up. As I continued to investigate, the movement went even further than the book in some circles. Many Christians were saying that dating was sinful in and of itself; others were at least feeling as if people who were still dating were less spiritual than those who didn’t. It was becoming the “Christian” thing to forego dating. I thought at first that this was just in some circles, but the more I traveled around I was hearing it all over the country.
So we read I I Kissed Dating Goodbye, and in this chapter we will share some of our reactions. We strongly disagree with the idea that all people should give up dating for several reasons. But before we get into the specifics, we want to validate the reasons behind this movement.
No one would take such a stance against dating without good reason, and the reason people are giving up dating seems to be this: pain, disillusionment, and detrimental effects to their spiritual life. In other words, dating has not helped them to grow, find a mate, or become a more spiritual person. So, it makes sense to kiss it good-bye.
And we empathize with this pain. As we have seen over the years working with many singles and being single for a long time ourselves (both of us were well into our thirties before we married), dating can cause a lot of hurt and suffering. Many people become disillusioned in the process, and they feel like they do not know how to make it work. They experience heartbreak, they repeatedly pick the “wrong type,” they can’t find the “right type,” or they find the “right type” and they don’t like him or her as much as the wrong type. They have trouble integrating their spiritual life into dating. And they question what to do with physical attraction and moral limits, as well as wonder when to move from casual dating to a more significant relationship.
For many people the pain and suffering of dating becomes too much, and they are ready for an alternative. And out of this motivation, we concur with the followers of the no-dating movement and its proponents. The pain of dating is not worth it if it does not lead to anything good. We understand Mr. Harris’s motive for writing this book. But we disagree with his conclusion. While we agree that the hurt must stop, we don’t think that dating is the problem. We think people are. In the same way that cars don’t kill people, drunk drivers do, dating does not hurt people, but dating in out-of-control ways does. Paul’s advice to the Colossians is sound: “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules?: Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!’? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence” (Colossians 2:20 ? 23). Paul cautioned the Colossians that making rules and abstaining from certain practices would never develop the maturity they needed to live life.
Human problems are matters of the heart, the soul, one’s orientation toward God, and a whole host of other maturity issues. As Paul says, avoiding certain things you could engage in destructively does not cure your basic problem of immaturity, which is internal not external. You may be immature and not able to handle dating, so you abstain from dating. But, unless you do something to grow up, you will still be immature, and you will take that immaturity right into marriage.
Avoiding dating isn’t the way to cure the problems encountered in dating. The cure is the same as the Bible’s cure for all of life’s problems, and that is spiritual growth leading to maturity. Learning how to love, follow God, be honest and responsible, treat others as you would want to be treated, develop self-control, and build a fulfilling life will ensure better dating.”
May 7th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
Steve240,
Wow, C.M. writes a book about kissing marriage goodbye, and those poor women who follow her are still single? Seven years is a long time. I wonder if the women were taught to trust in the “idea” rather than in the Living God…
G.D., Thanks for the computer tip!
May 8th, 2009 at 1:40 am
Hey, Kindred! Nice to see you in these here parts.
Canary, glad to see you fly back in here too. Hope you’re feeling well and strong.
May 8th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Steve240 said:
“did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to … “kissing marriage goodbye?”
What an excellent question! I hope single women following Josh Harris’ advice will ponder the connection and go read Boundaries in Dating by Drs. Henry Cloud & John Townsend, who are experts in their field.
Joshua Harris was homeschooled and didn’t attend college. Some commenters have previous remarked that Josh didn’t complete Pastors College. Instead, he lived with the Mahaney family when he moved from Oregon to Maryland to be groomed for the Senior Pastor position at CLC, and CJ taught Josh everything he knew.
Could that be the problem?
May 8th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Wanda
Canary
The connection between holding to the “kissing dating goodbye” and then the majority of women 7 years later not being married sure seems more than coincidental IMO. I am sure that connection is something that Carolyn McCulley never asks in her book. I am starting to read it so maybe be proven wrong but really doubt she asks that question. Again, Josh Harris wrote the introduction to her book so doubt she makes the connection or even asks the question.
From what I have seen, the “kissing dating goodbye” concept becomes something almost sacred and in certain circles like SGM it assumed to be superior without problems and thus unassailable. Thus it is doubtful people in groups like this would even ask this question or even make the connection. It must be something else in their mind that caused this to happen since “kissing dating goodbye” is always superior in their minds to dating. One person I have talked with almost called the devotion to IKDG a “cult like” following.
You can go to Google Books and read the introduction to her book online.
AKS
Thanks for posting that information on Boundaries for Dating. I knew one of his books was almost written as a response to the “kissing dating goodbye” concept. I have one blog entry where I quote Cloud where he says not dating is “harmful”
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2007.....courtship/
As you allude to, Harris doesn’t have much education and wrote his book at a young age based on his teenage years. On the other hand Dr. Henry Cloud has a PHD with many years experience counseling etc. Seeing the difference in education and experience should give you an idea who you should be more apt to listen to on this.
One criticism I have with Cloud is that he almost overemphasizes dating almost to the other extreme IMO.
May 8th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Just for clarification, I bring this up about the connection so that others can learn from this and not repeat past mistakes. As the saying goes, those who don’t study and learn from the past are destined to repeat it.
May 8th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Fred,
I checked back in my notes and this doctrine was in our church in 2006.
Specifically, “The bible doesn’t give a category for people to be married and not living together.
That erroneous doctrine was being passed off as scripture as far back as 2000 in another church in Maryland. I heard it directly from two pastors who had graduated the PC within 2 years of telling me that hurtful silliness.
I can’t say more here, but Jim if you want the whole disgusting story I’ll email it to you. It isn’t my story to tell so I can’t share specifics.
May 8th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
WOW FreeIndeed!! 2000 indeed! This erroneous doctrine was being presented in Chesapeake as a new doctrine. Things are pretty fishy and it all makes me wonder, what is really going on!
May 8th, 2009 at 11:40 pm
it’s all very interesting, doncha think…?
May 9th, 2009 at 6:45 am
I told Carole this in an email and will share it here: I’m convinced that this stupid doctrine is directly from CJ. He teaches it, but won’t allow himself to be recorded saying it. Every one who repeats that crap is a fresh graduate of the PC.
May 9th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Went again last sunday to kingsway, every time i go it makes me sick to my stomach to hear GE speak such lies. his pep talk on giving to the church had everyones checkbook out. only wish i could get my “friend” to see this place is controlling. some may ask why i go with my friend, its a long story.
May 9th, 2009 at 9:10 am
Lostone,
Did you get to see all the people walk forward with their pledges cards for the “partnership fund” BUT “NO PRESSURE!!!” I remember sitting there, listening to his not so subtle pep talks one year, going forward with my pledge card, and then walking back and seeing the sadness on my friend and his wife who were not able to give because he lost his job that year. They didn’t have anything to give that year, so they sat their while most people around them went forward with their little pledge card, looking at them as they passed, making them feel like little worms—BUT NO PRESSURE!!!–don’t you know?
May 9th, 2009 at 10:24 am
yes i did i stood there laughing on the inside. GE said on top of my 10% my family gives 5% extra but there is no pressure to be like him. but it seems like everyone there wants to be like him so im sure there are people that will give more than 5%. this makes me so sad for the sheeple. its all about cash and control. whats scary to me it seems if GE said lets all jump off a bridge for sgm most would.
May 9th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Hi Guys,
Wow I am so sorry to hear about the SMG Church. I thought I was the one that didn’t fit. I was there when it was the Harbor and Southside. I stayed for 8 yrs trying to “fit” into the mold. I have to say I left wounded and bleeding. I have a wonderful relationship with the Lord but I still have not found a church that I can put my heart into. I feel like I was truly damaged by the “care” that was provided in the 8 yrs I stayed there. I felt the Lord brought me there, looking back I believe it was to be a thorn in the side of leadership. They preached about their perfect church, family life, how the people of the church loved each other and cared for each other. Being a single mom with two sons I saw the church in a different light. I have to say I grew a lot spiritually, on my own, because there was only the Lord I to trust in. He met our every need, always. I was so glad when I felt released from being there. I was once told by “leadership” that I must be doing something wrong because my sons and I were poor. I tithed when we had no food in the house. I worked at the 700 club which was the only job I could find and was told I was only there for the prestige. These comments were made by the pastors. I don’t know how I survived looking back.
Anyway it’s sad to see that instead of turning into a Godly church they just continue to turn out the walking wounded. I am still actively looking for a church it’s been a challange but I keep looking. Your’s in Christ.
May 9th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Oh, Desert Rose! Have you tried the Chesapeake Vineyard in Deep Creek (George Washington Hwy)? If not, go there tomorrow, find Oscar Richardson, and tell him I sent you. You will be loved, my dear friend!
http://chesapeakevineyard.wordpress.com/about/
Megan Hoyt
May 9th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Thanks Freedom Fighter,
I am no longer in Virginia, my children have grown, I am married to a wonderful man and living in CO. Our Father is truly faithful. The church thing bothers me though, I was just talking to a friend , who was at the church the same time I was and I just realized it has been 14 years since I left and still have unresolved issues. It’s amazing how a group of people can effect your life. One thing the Lord taught me through all this was: To put your faith and trust in God and not in man. I am thankful that my friend told me about this website it’s healing to be able to share this with others that have gone through the same thing.
May 9th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
Hi Desert Rose,
What a lovely name. I live in Colorado, too. I’m just outside of the Springs. Are you anywhere nearby?
I left PDI 13 years ago, and still work through understanding what happened, as I try to help others get through their dismemberment. I am forever learning, post PDI/SGM, because that church group was such a big part of my life for so many years (I began in the early Fairfax church in 1979 at the age of 18, and was married there 6 years later). They were my family. People who love tenaciously tend not to forget as easily when broken relationships are involved. I honestly feel no bitterness, just sadness sometimes at the many lost friendships I endured because of leaving the group. However, as in your life, the Lord has been faithful to keep me and my family in His great hands.
I have not been able to connect with a church, either. My husband and older kids visit various places. I have gone on occasion, but see nothing different from what I left. It is like looking for a new wine skin, but only finding old ones. It just isn’t a good fit. So I understand. What is so wonderful is that we have learned to walk with the Lord on our own, to have fellowship with friends outside of churchdom, and to keep growing in grace. My husband encourages me that, one day, the Lord will bring us to our proper place. I know others might not understand my reasons for avoiding the old wineskin, but it is where I am at right now on my journey. Anyway, big hugs from a fellow Colorado-ian.
May 9th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Desert Rose,
I will be praying for the things past. For me part of the reason why the healing takes so long, is because EVERONE is OK with the abuse I went through..I am sorry. It is hard being single. It is about our personal walk with God. Something has to be “broken” before we can see.
Fred, we were told all other churches are bob the builder churches….that is compared to Sovereign Grace Ministries..
In my X Sovereign Grace Ministries Church, we had a guess speaker. Everyone was asked to “bless” this person…well, the pastor gave alright, HE GAVE OUT OF THE BUILDING FUND….so everyone else gave personally and he gave from monies, that WE the church had dilligently saved. When confronted on this, it became a spin the story, submitt to my authority issue.
The Carolyn McCully book was a mandatory study in my X Sovereign Grace Ministry Church, and even the married women had to purchase the book…hmmmmm isn’t that SPECIAL…..
Just my 2 cents…
May 9th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
charlie,
Worth more than 2 cents!
May 9th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Charlie when I was at Southside church I felt I was there as an intercessor. Maybe that is still my call this time praying for the ones who are still hurting and being hurt. This is really hard to see what the lasting fruit of this church really is.
Canary
. Glad there is a sister out there so close.
I live in Colorado Springs Small world
May 9th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Wow Canary I really know how you feel about finding another church. This site is showing me how I am not alone. This is a place of healing.
May 9th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Desert Rose,
It is so true that this is a place where the Lord can heal people. We are the Body, edifying and encouraging one another to continue in the Faith.
It is nice to know there is someone nearby going through similar experiences. We leave up in W.P., on 35 acres, with Pikes Peak in the back yard. It is so beautiful! I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else!
You certainly are not alone.
May 9th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Welcome Desert Rose, so glad that you are here!
May 10th, 2009 at 7:37 am
The Carolyn McCully book was a mandatory study in my X Sovereign Grace Ministry Church, and even the married women had to purchase the book…hmmmmm isn’t that SPECIAL…..
I don’t remember the married women at CLC being made to purchase McCulley’s book. I do remember being glad some of them read it. Being a single woman in the SGM world was a nightmare all of it’s own. We were expected to babysit at the drop of a hat, for no money though they would pay teen-aged girls. After all, for us pitiful single women who weren’t holy enough or good enough to get married had nothing better to do and the married ladies would often call it “your ministry”. We were expected to express nothing but contentment that we were single, God forbid we would ever let there be a hint of sadness or disappointment show that we were still childless and single. And for the love of all that is holy, do not ever express sadness about being childless on Mother’s Day. Being friends with a married couple meant that you were often relegated to family activities only because adult activities were all reserved for couples only.
We single ladies were to honor the single men all the flipping time. Even when all they did was moon about upset that none of us were worthy of them since none of us were Carolyn Mahaney. The single guys were usually looking for some perfect version of some woman that didn’t exist.
So, I was just glad some married women got some perspective from the cheap seats. From my single perspective, when a friend would get married I knew I had lost her to the married set. Married women I had tried to befriend would suddenly swarm all over my newly married friend like locusts. They forgot that they had overlooked her consistently for years when she was a lowly single. My friends were all sucked into the “couples” lifestyle of the church, even if they had sworn not to be after years of losing friends to their husbands. I’m not talking here of an obviously necessary change in relationship after marriage. I mean that these women were, for all intents and purposes, lost to me as friends.
The only married women I could count as actual friends were women who joined the church from the outside with one or two exceptions. Some women who were going through some insane weirdness at the hands of the pastors would suddenly realize that single women were as low on the food chain as they were. At least single men were still men. Single women couldn’t even breed new church members.
May 10th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Free Indeed, that is sad. I’m so sorry you suffered so much as a single person. I read a book once that was all about the failure of the church to appropriately serve single women, especially single mothers — wish I could think of the title. Desert Rose, I may have known you back in the day. If you want, click on the words Freedom Fighter to contact me. I must have known Fred, too, but I would need a last name to confirm that.
I will be praying for you all! It’s tough to sort through everything, but in the end, God will prevail. Faint not, dear ones!!
May 10th, 2009 at 10:19 am
Free Indeed, I agree with Freedom Fighter. I am so sorry for your pain and loneliness, your feelings of abandonment. I found friendships very challenging at CLC–as a single and as a married woman. I longed for friends, but everyone seemed too busy with whatever “season of life” they were in.
It may have looked like the married women and moms were having all the fun, but to be a married CLC “lady” was to be invisible, subsumed into husband and children. We could only serve in children’s ministry–for years and years, but could only be helpers so as to encourage the men in leadership of the Puppy Dogs classroom.
All the meetings and events were both mandatory and adults only–and folks only wanted to “serve” the leaders. We often couldn’t afford childcare–and the leaders didn’t have any troubles getting babysitters, so they assumed we were just being stubborn and resistant.
Click on my name to see the other side–and I would love to talk further, if you’d like. I’m still here in G’burg.
May 10th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Free Indeed,
I was a single woman in SGM and your story is not new sadly enough. Did you get told as well to “allow room for single men to lead in your life?” This is Carolyn McCulley’s teaching for single women. And this teaching was as recently as 6 weeks ago posted on the GirlTalk blog for even more to read. It’s horrific.
I think that teaching alone is by far the single most dangerous teaching SGM has for singles…it produced devastating results in me. Because, of course, I submitted and followed their counsel…it creates a horrible dynamic not intended for people who are not married to one another.
Keep pressing on, the truth will set us free
May 10th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Having been both a single and a married woman in my SGM days, I see both sides. As a single, I was expected to babysit for free, and help in moving folks from place to place. I did receive some attention from a leader’s wife, who in turn helped me through a terrible time, for which I will forever be grateful. I think I was asked on their beach vacation to help with the children, but oblivious me didn’t understand that. I was obtuse enough to believe they just loved me and wanted my company! What they must have thought of me! Bad, bad servant. The control was not as blatant during those early days.
Loneliness was very real, but I was encouraged to trust the Lord for my future. This I have to say was a good thing. However, I was also taught that I should be ready to take whomever God had for me as a husband, even if I found him physically unappealing, Fortunately, the man that came along for me was everything a good God could promise, and I didn’t have to commit my life to servitude and unhappiness with a guy I couldn’t love “like that”.
After marriage, it was as though I was propelled into a desert. Single friends disappeared. Perhaps that is because I was so involved with my husband, though I remember making efforts with one friend in particular. She had cooled towards me, for some reason ( we did ask her along on our beach vacation, but silly me just wanted her friendship. She assumed I wanted a babysitter. Oblivious once again). There really did seem to be an invisible line between singles and married, but I don’t know who put it there.
Once I was married, the leader’s wife who looked out for me seemed to disappear from my radar. I was no longer “in” with her. Weird. I still don’t understand that, except that my husband and I were not in leadership. That was the time when leaders seem to begin focusing on other leader type people.
This was in the early eighties. As the control aspects have only become more blatant through the years (pastors standing in the very stead of God ) and from what I’m reading here, I assume things have only gotten worse. I’m so sorry that a single woman would be made to feel less important than anyone else. Married women weren’t much higher on the totem pole. Sadly, children were on the bottom. There are going to be a lot of hurt adults, eventually, who were never allowed to think for themselves as SGM kids. They will either become rebellious, rejecting all things spiritual, or perhaps become worse than the ones who raised them, filled with unholy leaven.
FreeIndeed, I’m sad that you went through what you did. Our value is not based on what a person says we are. It is based on what Christ did for us, on who God sees us to be because of grace. You hang in there and keep following Jesus like white on rice. I save my wing cuddles for those who seem the most hurt. You get one from a sympathetic canary who wishes she could hug you in person. Keep the faith!
May 10th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Juli,
But look at you now! You are so free. The Lord as your Husband is leading you so well, and using your life to edify others. It is a beautiful thing, my friend…
May 10th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I would think the worst thing would be is that a single woman is not allowed to use her status as a gift, only as a servant.
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for baby-sitting. Breaking up 4 year olds arguments has given me many a moral dilemma.
But it’s as if being single is more of a curse. And deep down, I think they view marriage as a curse. The single years are viewed as a boot camp and you should thank them for the “training” you are getting.
May 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Abby, your observations are too right! And ultimately, it isn’t about being single or married, male or female, it is about knowing who you are in Christ, knowing your identity, and being real with yourself, God, and others. This is the aspect that is missing I think..but each of us suffer silently under the oppression of assumed standards and expectations thrust upon us by others – and dismiss our emotional reactions as bad, sinful, or prideful. So we never deal with what is really churning inside of us or why we feel the way we do.
We need to be real with how we feel and not apologize for it. I for one was ticked off at being told I should submit to a single man simply to give him opportunity to lead. If a man can’t figure it out on his own, then it sucks to be him. It is NOT my responsibility to encourage, equip or teach a brother who is single to man up. I don’t want that job. And I can’t imagine why any single woman in her right mind would.
Canary – thank you…I will forever champion the ability to be ourselves and the need to find our identities as essential to any growth, especially spiritual.
May 10th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Can I just thank Carole (and the other sweet women on this blog) who have prayed for us and been there to offer support and hold up our arms when weary. Especially during times when our own families were not.
Happy Mother’s Day!
May 10th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
I can’t tell you how intensely thrilled I am to be in the church God has given me. They just don’t care what “season” of life you are in! In 5 years I haven’t been asked to babysit one single time. Not ONCE!!!
But then, all the women are treated well. And the men. And the children too. Crazy how balanced theology doesn’t bend itself to abuses.
I know that women, married and single, are offered only the worst bit of the SGM world.
May 10th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
FreeIndeed
I am also sorry to hear about your bad experience a single woman at CLC. Around when were you there/leave?
It is good by reading the book that the married women develop some empathy for single women etc.
I left in the early 90’s. The atmosphere for the singles wasn’t that good. This was before Josh Harris came out with his infamous book but CLC has since their inception taught some form of “kissing dating goodbye” and singles doing things in groups (with those of the opposite sex). That teaching made, from what I saw, made the singles almost afraid of those of the opposite sex. Single men were reluctant to try and do things with single women since they were always fearful of “leading a girl on” as was taught not to do.
As a result, one didn’t see nearly the interaction between single men and women that would normally occur in most churches. I would hear singles talk about the problems but remember talking with one singles pastor and he was under the impression that things were just great. One person who had left the church but had been in lay leadership in the church at one time said that pastors heard what they wanted to hear. There also wasn’t a lot of people inviting people over and socializing that might have occurred in the past in the church.
This all resulted in at least some lonely singles (men and women).
May 10th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
I didn’t mind babysitting at all. I got to eat dinner with a family before the parents left, and talk and share my day. I got to be with little ones and enjoyed playing games and reading books to them and watching them grow drowsy.
Since I didn’t have any family in the area, I didn’t get to do these things with my own nieces and nephews. When I needed help when my car would break down or for other things, the family I babysat for would help me. It wasn’t all one-sided.
That 2 or 3 hours that I stayed with the kids was basically the only time that Mom got to go out without her kids. And I know I appreciated the singles who would watch my very active little ones later on when I got married and was overwhelmed with being on duty 24/7.
I liked spending time with singles while my husband stayed with our kids because they were able to do things as friends with me, unlike some other married women who couldn’t do anything without their husband.
May 11th, 2009 at 10:04 am
lostone said:
“yes i did i stood there laughing on the inside. GE said on top of my 10% my family gives 5% extra but there is no pressure to be like him. but it seems like everyone there wants to be like him so im sure there are people that will give more than 5%. this makes me so sad for the sheeple. its all about cash and control. whats scary to me it seems if GE said lets all jump off a bridge for sgm most would.”
Recently at SGM Survivors someone posted the property information for C.J. Mahaney. It was posted on this blog a little while ago.
I believe what the property records are showing is that C.J Mahaney gave to one of his daughters and son in-law a house that he paid $131K in 1986 now valued at $500K. Mahaney was then able to pay cash (no mortgage) for another home valued at $695K.
There aren’t a lot of people that can afford to do that for their children. Echoing what someone else said, I am sure Mahaney has and has for some time a pretty significant income which explains how he can do that. When one adds up all the honorariums, book royalties, and salary from SGM I am sure he does quite well financially.
I wonder if GE is in a similar situation. “Nice” to know they are pushing for money when the group’s leader since to be doing so well financially.
May 11th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Millertime said:
“After we started leaving SGChes, one of my daughters asked me about dating, and I told her dating was ok with me depending on the circumstances and on the timing as she gets older, and she told me that I was wrong, that SGChes didn’t allow that. That really broke my heart, and that was one more sign of the damage that had not been done to my family while we there.”
Even Josh Harris is now saying in his latest IKDG “update” message, “Romance Revisited”, that the title of his book was “confusing.” He said that he could have said I kissed “short term premature selfish directionless romantic relationships” goodbye but that would be too long of a title for a book.
Of course Harris isn’t that forthcoming with this “clarification” (he doesn’t write this on his blog for example). Unfortunately so many people have taken what Harris has written, including people within SGM, that any form of dating is wrong. Also, what Josh Harris says and what the culture is truly like in SGM can be two separate things.
May 11th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Desert Rose – Glad to hear you are FREE!!! I attended as the same time as you. What the pastors did is just insane. The whole “single women serve the single men” is insane -talk about bondage!!!!! Unfortunately, everyone is SGM is in bondage to someone else, aside from cj. Females in SGM have it the worst, considering the misoginist views pushed down from the top.
jh’s book and his “clairifcation sermons” have caused pleantly of damage to people all over sgm – he hasn’t learned that trying to elicit behavoir through control often has an undesired effect.
May 11th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
The “courtship” thing was in place in SGM when I arrived in 91. It was only solidified into stone when Harris wrote the book. I remember being really sad that Harris got married so young. I can’t think of a single pastor who made it past 30 still single. None of them have a clue about older singles. *insert rolled eyes here* Everytime I would get the “I understand about being single” speech I would remind the speaker that being single until you graduate college and being single into your 40’s are two entirely different things. The people in leadership never agreed.
Ellie, I never minded babysitting for families I had a relationship with, it was the people I didn’t know at all who wouldn’t normally even talk to me who were suddenly all chummy and then sneak attacked me with the babysitting question. The people who ONLY ever talked to be when they needed babysitting were the ones who would tell me that babysitting their kids was my “ministry”.
May 11th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Ah, FI, I getcha.
Those were the ones that I never gave “too much” information to, lol!
Like when they asked if I was “busy” on a certain day…”well, I’m not sure…why do you ask”?
May 11th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
A couple of things…
There was a comment up for a brief time that had some inside info about the pastors conference. I could not confirm the statements made, and had 2 SGM pastors (one a secret friend of the blog) tell me that the statement was inaccurate. Just wanted to do some house keeping.
Regarding singles, as a cgl, I know that I completely under-served or cared for a single lady in our group, along with a lady who’s husband did not attend. I deeply regret this.
Carole and I were married when I was 21 and she was 20. There is no way I could understand what life was like for a single person in their late 20’s (or wiser), particularly a single woman. If anyone should have read Carolyn McCulley’s book (assuming it’s any good), it was me.
This is really a subject the men in sgm should think deeply about. I really wish I had.
May 11th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
FreeIndeed said:
“The “courtship” thing was in place in SGM when I arrived in 91. It was only solidified into stone when Harris wrote the book. I remember being really sad that Harris got married so young. I can’t think of a single pastor who made it past 30 still single. None of them have a clue about older singles. *insert rolled eyes here* Everytime I would get the “I understand about being single” speech I would remind the speaker that being single until you graduate college and being single into your 40’s are two entirely different things. The people in leadership never agreed.”
It was actually Larry Tomczak in 1978 that originally taught one form of courtship. The emphasis at that time was that people should do things in groups vs. dating one on one with those of the opposite sex. I heard at least one tape where Mahaney taught this same idea and said they had found it worked better doing it this way.
I agree with you that most pastors married young and thus have no concept of older singles. I am sure that is partly why they impose on older singles a system that is more appropriate for teenagers and not older singles.
Mahaney is a prime example of someone marrying young. He would often describe how immature he was when he married. I have asked that maybe this is one of the big problems is that he sees all singles as immature like he was. Maybe this is why he insists on a system that works better for teenagers.
May 12th, 2009 at 9:14 am
Let’s not forget CJ’s use of illicit drugs which he acknowledges publicly. I never used drugs, so I cannot relate to his wayward behavior when he was young.
When I was a teenager and young adult, I always had my life under control, and that behavior has continued throughout my adult life. I am a role model for my daughters, and I have taught them how to treat their bodies as a temple. The Holy Spirit indwells them, and they are not to defile themselves. That’s a concept that young people can understand. It’s too bad SGM has to use rules ad nauseum rather than teaching its young people how to date responsibly.
May 12th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Jim:
Nice post at 7:16 p.m. Thanks for your integrity about what appears on this blog so that it can have clean reputation in its call for reform.
May 12th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Jim,
We made the decision to leave, so I am changing from Still in SGM but thinking to Walking Wounded. I was interested in your 7:16 p.m. post as well. I had asked my pastor about the conference (wondering if anything would be said about issues) and all I had heard was glowing reports about how wonderful the teaching was. Not that I expected anything more than that the teaching was exceptional.
May 12th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Walking Wounded,
Love your Gravatar. It says so much about what we are doing, here.
May 12th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I’m so glad I’m free. Freedom Fighter I’m not sure how to get a hold of you through that website. Canary I look out at Pikes Peak everyday too. It’s in our backyard
. I work across from it. I love Colorado there is so much beauty here. You know honestly I am stunned that so many people have felt the way I’ve felt. I feel healing everytime I Come here.
May 12th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Desert Rose,
So glad to hear that you are healing!
Much love to you,
a long time friend
May 12th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
Desert Rose and Canary–
Apparently you live next door to each other.
Grab a bag lunch and carry a red helium balloon and walk towards Pike’s Peak. When you run into each other, enjoy lunch together.
Love,
A sister who is jealous of you western mountian-dwelling women.
May 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Oops, Desert Rose, I thought my email address would pop up when you clicked on my name. I don’t mind posting it. It’s creativepowerhouse@gmail.com .
I am so jealous of you guys in Colorado! I would love to live there. So beautiful!
May 13th, 2009 at 11:30 am
RT, That was a wonderful (and hilarious) suggestion. Desert Rose, make sure the balloon is really big, so’s I can see it without my glasses on!
Freedom Fighter, It’s a great place for a vacation! You even have friends here you can mooch off of…
Desert Rose, I know what you are saying. If only I’d had this blog during my after-days of leaving SGM, I might have healed so much more quickly. There is something soothing and truth-revealing about knowing you aren’t insane, that others went through such similar experiences. The Lord is good to give us each other, and to give us clarity on the WHY’s…
May 13th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Yes a blog back then would have been nice. I’m happy that the Lord has brought me here to this website now. RT that’s awesome love the balloon idea. It certainly would need to be a giant balloon
May 13th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Jim, also regarding your 7:16 post: There are millions of things I regret from my time in SGM, mostly of the arrogant, over bearingly and obnoxious kind of stupidity that grows from the conceit that I was in THE BEST church. Ugh. All stupidly swallowed whole and regurgitated until I began to see the light. I’ve righted what I could with those whom I could.
Everyone I couldn’t get to: I’m sorry I was a horse’s patoot back then. I wish I could go back. It wasn’t until I understood how irrevocably apart from the grace of the gospel that the arrogance that hurt me was the same arrogance I weilded so clumsily and hamhandedly.
If you ladies do the whole walk with the balloon thing, please describe it here. That makes me laugh.
May 13th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
FreeIndeed,
I can so relate to your post (7:23). The pride, the misplaced confidence and certainty that we were “doing it right”, coupled with fear of man, the desire to fit the mold… UH. I too am sorry to those that I wounded.
May 14th, 2009 at 8:18 am
Hi all,
I haven’t been on for a while, as work has really been busy. Have been reading, but not posting.
I thought you might like to see this. A friend invited us to visit their new church, and OF COURSE I read the website first. This blows me away. Undoubtedly this concept is becoming universal today.
This church is a “church plant” out of a group of churches in South Africa. From the site info, there are quite a few popping up…….Okay, here is the “quote” from their STATEMENT OF FAITH, “11. With regards to submission to authority, we believe in the principle of being in authority because you are under authority. As such, it is understood that membership shall be subject to submission to authority in matters pertaining to church governance, doctrine and personal behavior. Talk about NO room for free will or choice.
At least they have the courage to put it right out there on paper for all to see. No room for saying, “I didn’t know”. I think I am still in shock that it is so blatantly written that they expect to have authority over personal behavior!!!???!!!.
Well, just thought I would throw this out there. This group seems to have the same growth/mission doctrine….church plants in major cities, and certainly has the same view on authority….Scary uh??
MiMi
May 14th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Hi everyone,
I’ve been reading here for awhile and just wanted to say “Thank you” for posting your experiences. It’s so helpful to know that all the things that our family went through at our church wasn’t because we were horrible inferior Christians.
(I’m writing this from my iPod touch. I hope it will post with no problems!)
May 14th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
NeedToRest,
Welcome!
Call me a geek, but posting from your iPod touch is just too cool
May 14th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
NeedToRest,
I love your name. I hope you find the sabbath rest that is for every believer (Hebrews), and that you know that you are not alone.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I previously stated:
“I am starting to read Carolyn McCulley’s book “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye?” In the introduction she talks about a group of women she read Josh Harris’s book and embraced what he had to say. Then she says in a few paragraphs later, that (doing the math) 7 years later most of the women who studied the book with her still weren’t married.
I will be curious to read and see if she even asks if there might be a cause and effect between “kissing dating goodbye” and her and others possible “kissing marriage goodbye.” That is did their embracing “kissing dating goodbye’ lead to possibly “kissing marriage goodbye?”
(portions deleted)
One blog says she does some men bashing in her book, especially older single men. I wonder if she has ever asked if the “kissing dating goodbye” culture has lead to some these older men to be so passive about finding a mate. ”
I had some discussions with the author of the blog that I thought said Carloyn McCulley was “male bashing.” He corrected me and indicated that it was her but another author whose book he was also discussing int this blog entry was “male bashing.” Thus I want to correct this item. I was another author that was “male bashing.”
I still stand with my other question of whether this group of women embracing “kissing dating goodbye” resulted in most of them still not being married 7 years later. It sure sounds like the two events are more than coincidental.
May 15th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
Steve,
You said, “I still stand with my other question of whether this group of women embracing “kissing dating goodbye” resulted in most of them still not being married 7 years later. It sure sounds like the two events are more than coincidental.”
Sounds like the darker side of arminianism. If your God was sovereign, you’d know that these women were single because that was the path God had chosen for them.
Just teasing, bro…
May 15th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Canary and Desert Rose…
I will be in Colorado too, soon enough! We refugees should get together..
Maybe we can start a church plant there..ahahah I am SOO kidding about that! Of course a church with 3 women starting it would bring LOTS of criticism from SGM..maybe we SHOULD do it..no, no, just kidding again…
but I guess we aren’t refugees anymore, that implies no place to call our own…now we are fellow sojourners…
May 15th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Ahhh, Juli, you sure know how to ruffle some feathers…which one of us will be the apostle (with a little “a”, of course)? Since SGM won’t let women teach (except the exceptional few), we will have to sit in the silence and listen to THE Teacher. Hmmm…maybe that wouldn’t be so bad! But please, no membership papers to sign. How about a hug and a handshake, agreeing that we will seek the Lord together? Now that is refreshing.
May 15th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Jim said:
“Sounds like the darker side of arminianism. If your God was sovereign, you’d know that these women were single because that was the path God had chosen for them.
Just teasing, bro… ”
It sure does. LOL We certainly have different perspectives on sovereignity and have agreed to disagree on that.
I haven’t digested McCulley’s book yet but don’t think she comes out and says God is sovereign and the reason you aren’t married is God’s sovereignity decided that.
What is life w/o humor.
May 16th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Friends, I just have to say my heart is full of thankfulness to God for all of you!
And can I please join the Colorado church? pleeze?
We’re still a bit up the road from COS but I can see Pike’s Peak too!
Today I’ve spent my “free time” – ok, I’ve neglected some other chores – to get caught up on this thread and a few thoughts stick out. First of all my heart breaks for every single episode of sexual abuse that has happened and double-breaks for the dishonor of any coverup! As a mom I can’t even imagine the heartbreak of Mother and the rest. And it scares me to death that it happened in one of the Denver churches, of course.
Our current pastor is all excited about the T4G group, and the out-of-hand comment he made about the survivors site was that my DH should watch out for a lot of bitterness. (gee, where could he have heard that???) Well, I am here to report that all I read in this comment thread is compassion for God’s people, the Bride of Christ, Love for our Word, God’s Scriptures, and a righteous “Passion for His Presence” – to coin a long-lost phrase.
And I see a passion for the Holy God to be lifted up in integrity and with all the glory He is due.
God bless you all. Oh and the latest idea for a CO church plant TRULY had me laughing! Desert Rose, Canary, Juli, RT, thank you for that fun, mischievous thought, and the image of all of us with red balloons!
May 17th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Steve 240 RE: May 11 post,
I am an older single female 50 never married and christian for 30 years. Hmm while I have been in a PCA for last 7 years most of all prior time has been non denominational shepherding churches so SG’s problems are not new to me. I saw the handwriting on the wall when I attended there for a short time.
I think people push early marriage now because of sexual immorality and lack of self control, they think marriage will fix the problem.
Gone are the days from the holiness preaching I was exposed to early on in waiting for God to bring someone into your path you is a good match in every area of life in terms of gifting and maturity. I know few couples you can say that. Most learn and grow through the death that marraige brings and if marry early you have no choice but to die and adapt because you don’t know enough yet or who God has called you to be.That’s why young couples need so much support. It’s wierd and still confuses me when so much literature and books by christian counselors SO encourage much preparation and growth prior to marraige to avoid it becoming a counseling project. But who really listens and does that? People get tired of waiting so they convince themselves or others this is the person and after “I do” it is.
I don’t know what the answer is anymore but it seems to lean towards staying single is better according to Paul. I only have to get through another 20 years or so of this life anyway I’ve made it this far. Sometimes maybe to much is made about marriage after all. When done right it is a holy calling. I like the catholic approach to some of it in Christopher Wests ministry and Theology of the Body. If I saw more couples who really are a showcase to the world how Christ treats and loves his church it can really be a great witness.
Thoughts?
May 17th, 2009 at 10:15 am
Debbie
With regard to your last post, I am not sure people push marriage early now due to sexual immorality as you indicate.
One theory I have with courtship is that it that is a way for parents to control their children through marriage. Maybe with the fears that these parents have of their abandoning Christ, they think that is they control them through marriage it will be that harder for them to fall away.
I wouldn’t call marriage “death” like you did, but it certainly brings a change in person’s life when they get married. They have to give up some personal things for the betterment of their marriage. There can be advantages in marrying younger since you both grow up together etc.
I remember hearing teaching that taught one to be pretty passive in finding a spouse. I call it the “meditate in a field” type teaching as people have indicated that Isaac was doing that when his wife was brought to him. I don’t agree with this type of mentality due to a number of reasons and have a blog entry where I discuss this.
You indicate that you now don’t know what the answer is. Maybe the problem is that so many groups have taught a one size fits all type of teaching vs. allowing for different approaches that work better for different individuals and circumstances.
Steve240
May 17th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Defended,
I didn’t know you live in CO, too. If you can see Pike’s Peak, you aren’t too far away from the rest of us!
Some day, whether on earth or in heaven, we will meet, and we must all carry red balloons. RT has some great ideas, but this was a doozy! She cracks me up. RT, want to join our CO church? We will let you have a podium and mic all to yourself!
May 18th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Defended – I have heard leadership in SGM churches make comments like “it’s no wonder people have sexual immorality, they hit puberty at 14 and we expect them to wait until their 20’s to get married – it used to be people didn;t have to wait so long after hitting puberty to get married – shame on us for having kids wait so long to get married”
May 18th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Freedom,
Uck, married before a kid is 20? Whatever happened to self-control, given by the Holy Spirit? I didn’t even know who I was at 19 or 20. What about education? Wow, this amazes me. What a bunch of baloney. Isn’t it nice to be free from such teaching?
May 18th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Canary – yes it is great to be FREE. Speaking of education, I have heard church leaders say the college is a waste of time and money for a woman because they need to have kids and raise their kids.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I’m feeling a little bit jealous of the Pike’s Peak-red balloon-picnic meeting. Anyone wanna meet at Sugar Loaf? Now, there’s a mountain for you!
Self-control is alot easier if you’re working on something that matters to you–like an education or getting a career off the ground.
May 18th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Canary —
I would give my eye teeth to live in the shadow of PP. But, alas, I am stuck here in the city-that-shall-not-be-named, and so will just join my sisters here in wallowing in severe jealousy.
We’re going to end up in the same church anyway…so I hope I get to be in Colorado in the new heavens and the new earth. Y’all live in paradise. King Jesus will be our pastor and we will never whine or be hurt under his leadership, but we will be freely worshiping, serving and playing with those who have hurt us. That is weird to think about.
Good night, y’all. I have to go kiss my teenage guy goodnight. He is well into puberty, a freshman in HS, probably I should figure out who he should marry next week and get the cows traded around and stuff. Certainly, God the Holy Spirit could not possibly fill him with self-control as he waits for maturity and marriage. My unmarried college daughter is probably dancing on tables at the local Kitty Kat Klub, since she couldn’t possibly be waiting on God’s plan for her life.
These poor people–so in bondage.
Join us out here in Freedomland!
**
May 19th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Girls,
Thinking about the new heaven and the new earth is so much needed in our lives! I wonder if we can carry our balloons there? Maybe we will just recognize each other because we will “know everything.”
RT,
I am amazed that your daughter cannot control her sexuality to the point that she has to dance at a club…sin is greater than grace…oy vey, what nonsense. How is it that we have managed to raise kids who desire purity, yet are still unmarried (my oldest is 24)? Oh, could it be that the Holy Spirit is involved? Sorry, I’m speaking tongue in beak. RT, you have a way of making me see the ridiculousness (word?) in all the stupid doctrines that are created to control people’s behavior. I’m sure your daughter and son will find their soul mates when GOD desires, just as I trust Him for my own kids’ spouses to come along. But not at 19! Eeeeek!
But, just in case, make sure you sign a contract before accepting any farm animals as a dowry. You never know, your son might want to give the girl back.
Freedom,
I have heard that sort of thing too, that college is wasted on girls. My ex-pastor said he wouldn’t be sending his girls to college. Fortunately, not all SGM families buy into this sort of enslavement. My daughter is getting a degree in Criminal Investigation, and she is so excited. It is nice to see her thinking about something outside of marriage. She has time to find out who she really is before settling down to one man for the rest of her life. Of course, she trusts the Lord to keep her pure during this time. It isn’t hard, because He is such a mighty and faithful God!
I’m feeling ornery, today. So, just in case I’ve stepped on any toes, I will add this disclaimer: there are exceptions in the SGM machine. Not all ch