The last Chesapeake thread is long, and slow to load, so I’ve moved the conversation here.This post will be amended in the next couple of days.
Yesterday’s announcements at SGCC can be accessed here> http://www.sgconline.org/sermons/
After listening to the message, I’ll attempt to summarize. This is not a transcript. If you feel that I’ve gotten something wrong or mischaracterized what was said, please contact me. I have no desire to misrepresent anything. The link to the message is above.
I’ll add my commentary in italics. My commentary is opinion, not facts.
Well, Keith got right to the point. Keith and Eric will switch positions. Eric will return from the PC as the senior pastor of SGCC, and Keith will be sent from SGCC to plant a church in the region.
Keith wanted to answer a question that “may be on your minds”. How do the recent trials SGCC has faced relate to this change in direction? His answer-humanly speaking, the trail has not caused this change in direction. Humanly speaking, there is no connection, as these discussions predate what they gave gone through recently.
The following is as close as I can get to Keith’s actual words:
“The stirring of the Spirit in this direction, in both Eric’s heart and in my heart, and as we continued to talk about this, and Gene was included in these conversations, these things predated what we have gone through recently, and we are grateful to God, to see His hand at work, well before the Fall. This really began soon after Eric got to the PC, we began talking, and there was an immediate impartation of faith.”
According to Eric, who seemed to have little interest in discussing recent events at SGCC, the conversation began in November, which is not “soon after Eric got to the PC” (August), nor is November before Fall, which begins on September 22. As you’ll see below, Eric states that before November, this was a topic that Eric and Keith hadn’t discussed in a couple of years.
Keith then spoke about how God has been preparing “all of us” as they look back at the “whole season as a local church”.
He shared his passion has always been to see the Gospel preached in places where “folks haven’t heard yet”.
Here we go. I promise that I’m praying as I write this. I can honestly find no other words to express how this language affects me. I honestly don’t understand how these statements can be made with a straight face. Click on http://maps.google.com/maps?rls=ig&hl=en&tab=wl , then cut and paste: church loc: Charlottesville, VA in the search bar. Then do the same with church loc: Williamsburg, VA . Honestly, when will SGM stop referring to heavily churched areas using the language of unreached people groups? I’m biting my tongue and moving on…
Keith stated that they are looking at the probability of relocating to Emerson’s church in the fall, to spend time with the team in the church planting residency, and then move in the Spring to a city in the region. They are considering Charlottesville & Williamsburg, and some other possibilities as well.
Eric then took the mic, and shared that he felt called to lead SGCC someday since the late 1990’s, that he entered the PC planning to plant a church, and that in October he felt that God might be calling him back to Chesapeake. He contacted Gene and then Keith in November, asking about the possibility of God calling him to lead in Chesapeake. His question to Keith at the time was, “are you in the place that God has called you to be?” This was a topic that they hadn’t discussed in a couple of years. Keith responded with immediate faith.
Eric was clear that this conversation began in November with Keith. I applaud his honesty, and the fact that he didn’t revise the actual timeline to create a distance from “the recent trials”. He made no mention of them. Compare Eric’s timeline with Keith’s above.
Gene then took the mic. He tried to compare these decisions with Acts 13:1-3 , invited input from SGCC, while at the same time, laying out a clear timeline for their plans, “God willing”. Gene and I seem to come to different conclusions when reading Scripture, so I’ll end here. Thinking men and women can read the text, listen to Gene, and decide for themselves.
FF: ItsHome was asking LW if he was calling Gene, Keith and Eric liars because of Keith’s statement that this change in leadership had nothing to do with the trial/issues the church had been going through these last months. As you listen to his words, he never specifically brought up the 3 couples but that was exactly the issue that he was talking about.
Time for a Pop-Quiz…………………..
Concerning the new revelations in the Chesapeake leadership “shell game”
which of the following is/are true?
A) when faced with the prospect of a mass-exodus of sheep, Eric Hughes
was brought back from exile to save the church
B) the call for Keith Breault to “step down” by the three couples in
Chesapeake was guided by the Holy Spirit (and was prophetic)
C) the plan to send the creative director to the PC was in the works
long before he was “fired”
D) all is well in Chesapeake
E) A and B
F) C and D
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler….I choose E
ItsHome,
You said:
LW,
Are you saying that GE and KB and EH are all liars? They said a different story, I’m just trying to see what you are implying.
thanks,
Yes, unfortunately I am saying just that. I expected better from Eric, though. He’s a man I respect.
To think that this “shell game” is occurring not because of the trial (as Keith put it) is simply unreasonable…in human terms (also a term used by Keith). Will people at SGC Chesapeake just stop drinking the Kool-Aid? Are you current members reading this blog actually believing that the “trial” of the “three couples” has nothing to do with this announcement? Say it isn’t so!
Unfortunately, I don’t believe any of this is the work of the Holy Spirit. With this whole process of the last six months, my only allegiance is to the Lord our God and not to any one church. The people of SGC Chesapeake, many of them my friends, would be better off to realize this as well. I have found another church which my family and I now call our home but never again will I have blind allegiance to a man-made entity.
Fred,
Thanks for making things a little clearer for everyone in your post above about the three couples.
I don’t know what is true or what is spin in thislastest Chesapeake event, but I do know the I’ve been hearing people use the word “call” for more than 40 years now. And every time I hear it, it sets off a series of “things that make you go Hummmmm” moments. I think, don’t have any hard evidence, that we have a tendency to spiritualize our decisions by using the phrase that “God is calling me to…………”
Is that what is happening here? I don’t know. I do know, from personal experience, that the “apostle” Gene is someone I do not respect. I have seen to much damage–sorry. To give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he is simply a victim of the system that has sucked him in and robbed him of his true identity in Christ.
Gene is a victim of his own decisions, just like we all can be. Nobody forces anyone else to make choices..they fill them with ideas, and we choose which ideas we want to believe and ultimately act upon. This is a willful, conscious decision on the part of every indidivual on the planet throughout history both in and out of the church. The question is: why do you think leaders of any group work so hard to minimize any indivdiual thought, motivation, ability, creativity, intellectual pursuit, or anything else that is contrary to the defined “greater good”, “family”, “community” etc?
Thus we are responsible for ourselves and what we choose to believe, and those who proliferate lies and ideas contrary to the gospel and the truth are liable for themselves as well. Gene is among them. CJ is among them. These men are not deceived. They have made a series of choices over an extended period of time based on ideas and values they possess- they did not arrive where they are at intellectually or spiritually overnight.
It would be wise for us to remember that these men are not standing in the stead of God, and their claim to do as much is what in part fuels the created context of infallibility on their part. All the while, they are pushing ideas contrary to the truth.
Juli,
I do not disagree with anything you posted. I was personally trying to work through all of this kind of out loud.
I just find it incredibly hard to understand how three men, who want to lead God’s people, could fabricate what the three of them publically stated. I personally would rather be excommunicated and lose my job than stand there and collaborate something that is blatantly untrue. How could they live with themselves? I am just trying to procees all of this.
Juli,
Well said!
LiveWire,
“ I have found another church which my family and I now call our home but never again will I have blind allegiance to a man-made entity.”
Same here. It was a hard lesson to learn, but I won’t have to learn it twice.
I just listened to the Chesapeake message.
ummm….how many times does a pastor have to insist something is NOT connected to something else that one would begin to think – why the constant emphasis on this? Could it be that logically that is the conclusion people would make because it IS logical?
How degrading that this leader feels the need (and right) to put thoughts into the sheep and not allow them to come to their own conclusions.
I also find it interesting that all these decisions have been made, and then to appeal to “pray with us” about it – er…about what exactly? He says they want to hear from the congregation..I am wondering what would happen if enough people in the church said “I don’t think you “sense” God’s leading in this..you better re-think it.” He said more than once that the church is invited to pray as well. But then he goes on to share a vision, saying over and over that God is stirring them for this, etc. At this point, to disagree with them would be tantamount to disagreement with God.
If I were a member of Chesapeake I’d “test” this by asking LOTS of questions of the pastors…how did they come to this “sense” of God’s leading, why specifically they think it is not related to the recent events in the church, why now?, why a Midlothian church plant? etc.
My bet is this invitation to participate in the leadership’s decisions and future of the church is not real. And simply by extending it the church many may feel as if it is not necessary to question things – after all, if the pastors didn’t really mean it, they would not have asked, right? We can trust them because they are open to our input. blah blah blah…Right? Yeah, whatever.
I’d say test it anyway. Find out exactly HOW open they are to questions and specifically questioning their plans for the church. Then you will see if this invitation to participate in leadership decisions and church direction is real.
LiveWire said: Unfortunately, I don’t believe any of this is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Sorry brother, I have to disagree with you on this one unless I misunderstood your statement. I for one do believe that all that happened and was uncovered these last 6 mos. in SGCC through Esther and the 3 couples was absolutely the work of the Holy Spirit and was under the divine direction and guidance of the Holy Spirit. There are just too many things that happened to think that man was directing or causing any of it. If you look back at http://www.sgmsurviviors.com and here at refuge over the last 9 mos., it is obvious that the Holy Spirit has been moving and shaking SGM and all their related churches. God began revealing much that had been hidden. He will not be mocked and He will not allow His children to be abused through this movement any longer. Holy Spirit stepped in, make no mistake about it!! (love you brother!)
Julie said: Thus we are responsible for ourselves and what we choose to believe, and those who proliferate lies and ideas contrary to the gospel and the truth are liable for themselves as well. Gene is among them. CJ is among them. These men are not deceived.
Julie, I absolutely agree with you that we are responsible for the choices we make and what we believe and that we are held accountable. I totally disagree with you about the deception. These men are greatly deceived and so are those who buy into SGM. We have an enemy of God that lies, steals, destroys and brings forth great destruction and deception. As God removes the veil, shinig the Light of the Gospel into man’s hearts and minds the veil is lifted off and Truth is seen. The first great unveiling is our salvation but there are other unveilings as we are sanctified and changed more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. I have experienced this first hand because I was totally deceived about SGM and the leaders. I praise God that He has lifted this veil off of my eyes in the last year or so and that I now see SGM more clearly. I am still responsible for the choices that I made when I was part of SGM and ways that it affected my family and my walk with God. I have repented to God and to my family and know that I am washed clean by the blood of Jesus.
These leaders of SGM are in great bondage and I pray that God brings a great and mighty deliverance, that they repent and are set free to experience the freedom and abundant life that is available for every Believer. I pray regularly now that the Lord will not allow me to be deceived again in this way. (love you sister!)
good grief. This is all a bunch of manipulation and double talk.
Gene said: “Keith said I love you but God has called us to go. Mission supercedes community.”
this sounds like the decision is clearly made and in the next breath Gene makes it clear specific dates have been set for all of these changes to take place….then says “if this be God’s will”..then talks about participation with the church as far as “engaging in the process” and them needing the church to communicate whether or not this is the will of God or not..then he goes back to “we have confirmation this is the Spirit leading us”….then back to “pray with us to discover God’s will”…and for those who think this is God’s will they need to hear from them so they can move forward (notice he didn’t mention any disagreement and implied they WOULD in fact move forward)… and of course all the while telling them what a joy they are, the clapping and praise of men, the shmoozing..UGH.
And He calls this “New Testament Christianity” but it is classic manipulation.
interesting that individual “mission” (if you are a lowly sheep) doesn’t supercede community as Gene supposes.
I know when I left my church and said “God is calling me to leave” that I was IMMEDIATELY met with doubt, accused of being deceived, etc. simply because I was leaving the community of believers. in fact, my pastor said I should just trust him and his wisdom in this and just realize I have been deceived. That I was wrong about my idolatry of the church and them, and they would help me. So apparently for ME, the mission God was sending me to flee idolatry didn’t supercede the community. Go figure.
Fred, first, I understand and appreciate what you are saying. Deception, by definition, implies a lack of knowledge of the TRUTH and an acecptance of something in place of truth. Certainly many are deceived in this sense, in the manner you described, both by the Enemy and through our own lusts.
However, God has given us minds to use to apprehend Truth. When we forfeit that right we are actively participating in exchanging the truth for lies. Romans 1 outlines this progression – beginning with a knowledge of God and the truth…contrary to popular opinion that we are just depraved beasts with no ability to seek or know God or His truth we do have the ability to know the truth. Wisdom CRIES OUT from the street….it doesn’t hide from us. God is not playing some hide-and-seek game with Truth here…He has given us all we need to know Him and Truth.
After reading the numerous stories on both blogs and talking with people who have known these men personally it is clear leadership and CJ have been questioned, confronted, warned, prophetically warned, time and again over the years…CJ in particular. They are aware of the truth – they choose to ignore it and dismiss it. They are not deceived. They are the men of Romans 1. Systematically dismatling truth for their own agendas.
Is there still hope for them? Sure. There is always hope. But to think they have not had access to God’s truth all this time? Do we really want to assume that? These men more than anyone else have no claim to be ingorant because
1) they stand in the very stead of God, right?
2) they have accountability with others so you’d think someone would see the inconsistencies with what is taught and the fruit it produces
3) they have access to information most don’t – knowledge of stories and situations (like Noel’s story for example) that most don’t. The fruit of their choices ARE stories like Noel’s, Happy Mom’s, Musicmans, Canary’s, A’s, Acme’s and countless others.
they have had more than they needed to make godly decisions. they didn’t. and they still don’t. the bondage they are in they have created themselves.
I was thinking back to when Keith first came back from Pastor’s College years ago…
The Chesapeake church was told that God’s ‘calling’ on Keith (and their plan) was for Keith to plant a church in Williamsburg the next spring. This was put on hold for awhile. Then J Butler ended up being ‘called’ to help the Kennesaw, GA church and the ‘calling’ on Keith was changed from church planting to being the Senior Pastor of the Chesapeake church (Williamsburg plant was on indefinite hold.)
Amazingly, within 3-1/2 months of the Chesapeake upheaval, Keith’s ’calling’ has changed yet again, and this ‘calling’ just happens to remove him from the ‘fire’ burning at Chesapeake. (Of course, this change has NOTHING to do with the upheaval!)
It seems to me that Sovereign Grace changes God’s ‘calling’ to fit whatever situation happens to befall them at the time. It must get tiring putting out fires.
Misled – exactly. when men determine the calling and not God, it gets wonky fast.
“gets wonky” – TOO funny, Juli!
Juli said:
“this sounds like the decision is clearly made and in the next breath Gene makes it clear specific dates have been set for all of these changes to take place….then says “if this be God’s will”..then talks about participation with the church as far as “engaging in the process” and them needing the church to communicate whether or not this is the will of God or not..then he goes back to “we have confirmation this is the Spirit leading us”….then back to “pray with us to discover God’s will”…and for those who think this is God’s will they need to hear from them so they can move forward (notice he didn’t mention any disagreement and implied they WOULD in fact move forward)…”
Sounded wonky to me
So let me ask you: Do you all put as much time and energy into analyzing your own speech and that of your Pastors as you do SGM Pastors…and is it possible that some are giving this blog more time and energy than they are to serving their own families and churches?
Hello Mommy. I can’t help but observe that you giving your time and attention to this blog… and your words seem very judgmental, and kind of vicious, although I could be “hearing” incorrectly…
Maybe you should analyze your own speech? Just sayin’… If you haven’t already, may I suggest you read the blog post “Turning the Ship”? Might be helpful in further communication here.
MommyLL,
I would strongly discourage anyone from neglecting their families for any blog.
I would imagine that this blog took more of my time today than anyone commenting here.
90 minutes, during business hours. My business hours.
By the way, some of us feel that we are serving The Church by our participation here.
What is the difference between me asking questions and you asking questions of SGM?
Thanks Jim .
The difference would probably be presuppositions, the grid we view truth through!
Your questions somehow seem judgmental as opposed to really wanting to interact and learn something. Could be I’m just not hearing your heart, but you do seem pretty “edgy”.
Carole,
What would you call your word choices, such as “very judgmental” and “vicious”?
I’d call them discerning
This is a one way street. I’ll stop asking questions.
There is no SGM church–there is only the CHURCH–the catholic (little c), the church universal, the church visible.
When a part of the church hurts or is hurt, the rest reacts.
My brothers and sisters who are in bondage–I care about them. I care about truth. I desire that my beloved SGM friends find freedom and joy and grow in wisdom and knowledge and fear of the Lord.
That is why I am here–I learn from former SGMers, I pray for them when I wake in the middle of the night, I discuss theology and truth with my brethren here, no matter where they worship on the Sabbath.
That’s just how your verbiage came across… you said “is it possible that some are giving this blog more time and energy than they are to serving their own families and churches? “… that to me sounds like you are judging. To me, it sounds as if you are saying people who post here are not giving as much time and energy to serving their families and their churches as to this blog. Unless you know someone personally who posts here that this is true of, then you are judging those you don’t even know… hence “judgmental”… “vicious”, again because judging those you don’t know and have no knowledge of is vicious, in my opinion. Now if we know someone personally that this is true of, we would, of course, discourage that. No brainer!
You’re not asking questions; you are implying wrongdoings.
I am a twenty plus year member of a SGM church and mommylonglegs I must say Jim and Carole have you pegged! Are you seriously going to jump on here after you yourself have been reading along and condemn everyone else for doing the same? I’m sorry but it seems more of the do as I say not as I do… and the “holier than thou attitude” that frankly I’m sick of.
Mommy–please don’t go! We’d all love real questions, real comments. But instead of responding to posts, you simply ask us if we are taking proper care of our families. Please see the difference, because you are most welcome here.
But this is the way I respond to your original post:
Personally, all I do is read these blogs. All day long. All night long. Just read, read, read, read, post.
My kids sit around in unwashed clothing, my house is knee-deep in dog hair, I haven’t cooked in seven months.
My bills are unpaid, my students are untaught, my cars are unwashed.
My husband is neglected. My yard is a mess. I haven’t had a shower for days.
After all, I am a woman, and quite limited in my ability to manage my own time. I am always grateful when someone helps me see my shortcomings with a gracious tone and the utmost of care for my spiritual growth.
I will admit, my drawers are <honestly> a bit messy. But, thankfully for me, I worship in the PCA, so all we get rebuked for is not being able to recite T-U-L-I-P on command and not having chilled white wine in the fridge and not having a well worn ESV Bible.
LOL RT!
Fred,
I was just talking about the swap with Keith and Eric, not the whole she-bang with the three couples. As far as Eric coming back, I don’t believe the Holy Spirit had anything to do with that either. That was just damage control by Gene and ultimately CJ. Eric wouldn’t be coming back at all if none of this with the three couples had happened.
back to the message at hand…
I think the over emphasis they make on two points is telling:
1) the decision is not related to the recent incident with the three couples or complaints made
2) they want to involve the church in this “decision”
that is what they are SAYING…but what they are MEANING is entirely different: (which is why is is called manipulation)
1) you would be wrong if you think this is a response to anyone else’s actions
2) we thought of this long before December, here’s our timeline so you can know for certain -! It’s OUR idea
3) we’ve heard God speak to us and “sense” his leading
4) we want you to feel part of this, so pray with us about this and agree with us so that you can feel part of this
5) the only reason we want you to feel part of this is in light of the recent criticisms that again, have NOTHING to do with this…are you buying this yet by the way?
clearly the recent incident impacted this decision, or they would not be repeatedly inviting the church for their involvement on any level – because that never happens in SGM. But because the church truly doesn’t have a voice or input anyone would take seriously, they also have to repeatedly sprinkle the invitation with phrases like “We “sense” God leading us” and “We have at least 20 confirmations this is the Spirit leading” and “We have set some dates for this to happen..” well, now, that doesn’t leave much room for disagreement now, does it Gene, Keith and Eric?
We want your input you say, but because of all the above mentioned reasons (which we will continue to remind you of) should you disagree with us as you give your most valued input, it would be obvious to all that you are in defiance of God’s clearly expressed will. And that’s baaad. So just agree with us that this is of God, feel good you took part, and don’t figure out you actually did nothing but agree with us and didn’t think for yourselves.
AAAH! You know what? Some pretty sharp cookies from Chesapeake have posted here – these leaders are in for a big surprise if they think these brothers and sisters will roll over and play dead.
RT,
Awww…dog hair?? you don’t get Mother of the Year award my sister….I know,you’re highly disappointed. Maybe next year!
now go drink some white wine and enjoy that clean conscience
Chesapeake was the Virginia Beach Church. Southside church was Kingsway.
The “Virginia Beach” church was “The Harbor” then was renamed to “Southside” and now is “Sovereign Grace” and is located in Chesapeake.
I do not believe there was any chance of Eric Hughes returning to SGCC, in fact, his house in Chesapeake has been for sale since August. It was made very clear to the congregation in Chesapeake, in August, through many tears, that Eric was not returning. Now, after the biggest upheaval in the history of the SGCC, Eric is suddenly returning? Taking the place of the Sr. Pastor? And it has nothing to do with the events of the past 3 1/2 months? Who are they kidding? I believe it is very arrogant and prideful of these men not to admit TRUTH! Here was an opportunity for the men at the top in Ches. to speak truth, for once, and again, they failed to muster enough courage to do so. SHAME ON THEM! Is there not one righteous man in the leadership of SGCC? (I believe that if there is, God just might spare them!) SPEAK UP! SPEAK UP! SPEAK UP! (I know the pastors read these blogs…if you are…SPEAK UP! SPEAK UP! SPEAK UP! DO NOT LET THE FEAR OF MAN QUIET YOU…LET THE FEAR OF GOD EMPOWER YOU BOLDLY…to SPEAK TRUTH! GOD WILL HONOR YOU!)
…one more thing…how long have we’ve heard (and its certainly getting old) of the “…need to bring the gospel to this region or that region-assuming a Sovereign Grace Church doesn’t exist there-to effect the ‘unreached people.’” Are there no churches in Charlottesville? Williamsburg? Denver? Why are we constantly reminded that there is a need for Sovereign Grace churches so mankind can finally hear the gospel? Is there a dearth of gospel-centered churches…a void SGM is attempting to fill? Or is it anti-humility mantra: Were right…and everyone else is wrong?
Greener Pastures,
Try the trick in the main post. Charlottesville should be called churchville….
I’m wondering what would have been so awful about telling the congregation that these changes were happening BECAUSE OF the recent upheavals there. What’s so awful about saying, “We heard you. We are taking action.” ???
I don’t know why the leadership won’t lower themselves to the congregational level to listen. They are doing all they can to prove to the congregation that they have certainly NOT listened to them but rather have listened to God.
And as an aside….it has been years since I heard CJ speak. This clip sounded so much like CJ. Do ALL the leaders emulate him like that? Do none of them have their own “voice” as far as mannerisms and individuality are concerned?
Remnant said-
I don’t know why the leadership won’t lower themselves to the congregational level to listen. They are doing all they can to prove to the congregation that they have certainly NOT listened to them but rather have listened to God.
This would allow the sheep to think that they are just like the pastors, equally able to hear from God. This can’t happen in SGM.
Erik, you said: *”PDI-ed” – verb- “to exert manipulative control over a person by using their confessed weaknesses and sin over them to get their desired result.”
a while back, Jim came up with his own verb to address that SGM phenomenon: “Shanked” – of course in reference to Steve Shank and his method of, um, displacing pastors based on lack of gifting, etc…I’m sure you know the routine. Sounds like it is the same thing as PDI-ed unfortunately.
Greener Pastures- now that IS a bit of interesting information. They actually announed to the church in August Eric would not be returning? And his house was up for sale? And now all this?
Wow. You’re right. That’s outright lying to the people. Who do they think they are fooling? Are the people of Chesapeake really that obtuse?? Or do the pastors just THINK and HOPE that they are?
(Of course I don’t know anyone from there I am not suggesting they actually are obtuse, but by the actions and assumptions of their pastors the pastors apparently think they are!)
Remnant said:
“I’m wondering what would have been so awful about telling the congregation that these changes were happening BECAUSE OF the recent upheavals there. What’s so awful about saying, “We heard you. We are taking action.” ???”
Let me spell it out . . .
It’s P-R-I-D-E !!!
And what does the Bible say about pride?
The answer is found in Proverbs 16:18 (NKJV).
“Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.”
For clarification, the definition of “haughty” according to Webster’s Dictionary is:
“Having or showing great pride in oneself and disdain, contempt, or scorn for others; proud, arrogant, supercilious”
Here’s a recent example of haughtiness on this blog:
“So let me ask you: Do you all put as much time and energy into analyzing your own speech and that of your Pastors as you do SGM Pastors…and is it possible that some are giving this blog more time and energy than they are to serving their own families and churches?”
I updated the main post that begins this thread yesterday. Maybe Keith has a poor memory, but Eric’s timeline clearly contradicts Keith’s.
Jim said……..“Eric’s timeline clearly contradicts Keith’s”.
The first rule of rewriting history is………….make sure everyone is telling the same “new version” of history.
There are other rules as well; let’s see if those rules are followed……………..Pay attention everyone as there may be a quiz later!
N.S.L.B.
Erik, wow..another great reference for “shank” – thanks for sharing!
My knowledge of “shank” was from my work in Criminal Justice – a shank is a homemade weapon in prison, a knife. Of course used to hurt someone.
I think I like your golf term better
great imagery
Erik wrote,
How many fine leaders and believers have been “shanked” by spiritual abuse? Instead of being hit towards the intended goal of “the green” (green pastures), they are instead sent off into “the rough” of obscurity wounded and abandoned.
What is so beautiful is that Jesus followed us into obscurity to heal our wounds and to show us that He will never abandon us. Some of my greatest and most lasting lessons have occurred because I got “shanked” into the woods by PDI/SGM. I think I am now out on the “green”, but I will never forget those precious times when the Lord taught me quietly in the obscure place. He refreshed me, deprogrammed me, taught me truth, and set me free from my fear, something that was never able to happen under the “authority” I once trusted and believed in. To be “shanked” was a blessing in disguise!
Hi Believers:
I’ve been reading these blogs for about a month now. Thank you very much for your courage to tell your stories. Please know that many of us are being helped as you share your stories and for me it’s been like having a giant light bulb turned on. All the vague, fuzzy, subtle things are more in focus, and the blatantly wrong things that I thought must be isolated incidents to forgive and overlook, are now looking like a SGM-wide set of themes and patterns. Thank you for the role you are playing in shining the light.
I was grieved last nite over the magnitude of what’s been happening and the seeming disregard by the leaders to “do good,” it seems blind ambition has truly made them blind to the harm they are causing. This morning when I woke up, I turned to Isaiah 3 and came upon these verses:
13 The LORD takes his place in court;
he rises to judge the people.
14 The LORD enters into judgment
against the elders and leaders of his people:
“It is you who have ruined my vineyard;
the plunder from the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing my people
and grinding the faces of the poor?”
declares the Lord, the LORD Almighty.
And I was reminded once again that the Lord is on His throne, the Good Shepherd knows about all these things; He is in the midst of rising up to protect His own and He will deal with those who have oppressed His people. I continue to ask and pray that the gift of repentance be granted to those leaders (and all of us) in need of that blessed gift. And that somehow thru this time of shaking, the end result would be that Jesus would be glorified. Thanks for your stories that go from hurt to hope…. You are making a difference for good!
Blessings to you all!!
Erik – hahahaha! GOOD one! Birdie.. <chuckle>
Much Afraid – thank you so much for sharing…ecnouraging for all of us to hear that..and I think the people reading along need to know that as well..that people are being set free despite how glum it looks at times. It is totally a work of the Spirit though – I think these blogs are a result of “We can’t help but speak about what we have seen and heard!” (as in Acts)
Once God opens our eyes, we can’t HELP but speak truth and desire to see others set free…so glad you are walking in that freedom with Him! THe fear (if it is still there) will end. And then you can change your “name”
until that day, walk in His grace, faithfulness, the power of your anointing, believing all His wonderful promises for and about you!
Jim-
You are very much correct that the Time Lines clearly do not match up. When it was announced that Eric was leaving, it was made very clear to the congregation that it was a permanet move, again, much to the bereavement of many. But of course, as is the “S.O.P.” of SGM, much of this “has absolutely nothing to do with the contemporary events…this decision has been going on, totally unbeknownst to the congregation, for a long time….” It’s good to see in the chaotic world we live in, some things will never change…at least we can count on that…Same Old…Same Old! (But to all those still sticking around in the Ches. Church, you are always free to bring your concerns to the leadership, as their doors are always open -but keeep in mind, so are their windows, which many a good man has been thrown out of.)
“…their doors are always open.”
Yeah, I remember hearing that from one of the “apostles” some time ago too. I think that is true if you care to compliment them or bring happy news to them, BUT Lord help you if you dare bring an “observation,” especially if it is directed at them. You cannot believe how quickly that door shuts and access to them closes. And how quickly the problem is not them but your pride and heart issues that need corrected. And if you survive that first wave of “huh? what happened,” you and your family will be marginalized and in some cases even labeled as yucky and subtly shunned.
The good news, though, is it can be a wake up call from the Lord, and as painful as it can look, you can walk away into freedom.
Erik,
Ha-ha! Birdie…wish I’d thought of that!
Much Afraid,
It is good to hear from you, and to know you have been helped.
Lake O’ Fire…
Erik Tammaru on March 31st, 2009 at 8:30 am at http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/3.....mment-9435, Said:
“Being a golfer, the “Shank” is a horrible shot that happens when one impacts the ball with the hosel (shaft) instead of the club face by mistake. The ball then shoots out straight right and is invariably lost in the woods or a lake.”
Thanks Eric, YES, Mr. Mahaney and his Boyz are “invariably lost in the woods…”
>snicker<
(comment edited by Jim-give me a call, bro..)
Hahahahahahahahahahahah!
In a little,
Sopwith
Hey gang….y’all need to step away from your keyboards for a bit…Are you seriously joking about CJ and the ‘Boyz’ heading for the Lake O’ Fire? Please, I’m begging you to take a look at yourselves and what you are saying. This is shameful, you should be ashamed to make a joke like that. You are using very strong language and making very serious charges against men that are our brethren. You must see that this is grieving to the Holy Spirit.
You can disagree with them on methods and motives and timelines and any thing else but you must not assign them to hell because you are ticked off and offended at them….God help us all.
Soppy, slow down..I’m begging you. You have to know that you have crossed a very clear line.
Mommylonglegs…stand down. Or do your homework before you make any more comments….
Carole, Juli, Canary, …Misled, Gracie..you know my story. Eric Hughes is my nephew.
I have known the man all of his life..his wife, Marie…his sweet children. I PROMISE you that blind ambition, haughty and proud…these are just not words that anyone that knows him would use to describe him. Those of us who know him best love him and respect him the most.
And you know I love you guys….
Carrol Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
I’m waiting to hear from Sop-
His comment, joking or not, does not reflect the view of this blog.
Hi Elizabeth! I’m not sure what you are directing at me, but let me assure you that I have no desire whatsoever to see anyone heading for the Lake O’ Fire! That’s not even something to kid around about!
I’m so sorry about that comment… I didn’t even see it until I read your comment… I guess I need to be more vigilant! (And you know I love you, too!!)
My only desire is to see reform in SGM, to not see any more sheep experience the pain and hurt that others have due to their polity issues and authoritarian practices.
Elizabeth, or is it Carrol?
I know Eric and I know Gene. I do not really KNOW Keith. IMHO, Eric is a good man and a brother in Christ. Gene may have started out right, but he has drifted immensely. I no longer respect him or trust his words. He is now a product of many years of being caught up in the SGM machinery. I think that if Eric serves under Gene’s oversight that he too will drift in the wrong direction. I hope Eric doesn’t get caught up in some of the hocus pocus often happening in SGM to protect the institutional machinery. Believe me, the organization is the monster that can chew up those who God calls to lead His people. They start out well, and get lost in the intoxication of the vocation. I hope this doesn’t happen to this dear brother.
Erik Tammaru, it’s nice to see you here on sgmrefuge. I am a CLC refugee myself (1986-2007)–and remember you and your family. You’re pastoring a church here in MoCo, no?
C, I think this shows how hurtful it is when someone you love is evaluated by others who really don’t know them well. Thus, Jims’ Turning the Ship blog. We can guess about a lot of things but not peoples heart. I too know Erics fine character and reputation. This is the thing. We must keep our hands (mouths) off of presuming their character and keep it to our opinions of polity. Thanks for speaking up , you are so right.
When I shared my story several months ago, my blog name was hurtsheep. I made it a point not to mention the pastor who caused me so much suffering because I truly believe he thought he was responding how God wanted him to respond. I’m talking about Eric Hughes. I agree with Carrol to a degree. I do not believe Erice is haughty. I do think that like the rest of us he has some pride he is not aware of. When I approached him about not following through with his word to me regarding an area of ministry he told me I had and idol in this area. I was really taken aback by his accusation because I was NOT attacking him I was only confused at his lack of not following through with what he told me. Him being the pastor and me only a “sheep” I ask God to reveal to me any blindness in this area. This lack of not following through with his word is evidentally quite common. There have been many who have been frustrated with him for this same reason. Unfortunately they never communicated this with Eric. This is grossly unfair to him. I know there have been many things in my life, that I have been blind to and am so glad my husband or others have brought fo my attention! I so longed for clarity about this issue I met with a couple who were care group leaders. The husband did say that he was known for not following through. I don’t think this was often a conscious thing however. Unfortunately for me once he labeled me with an idol it was death to me. I did put this “idol” aside and served God with all my heart repeatedly ignoring my desire to serve in ministry. I had no time line in mind ahead of time. However, after a year I thought maybe I was good enough. I actually approached him with hope in my heart. He looke me straight in the eyes and said “I was thinking years!”. I need to mention that prior to my year of laying my “idol” down I had spent years yes YEARS of repeatedly being told I would be used. Eric even apologized for acting ou of fear of man but he still continued to punish me. My husband can is my witness that i could write a small book of his many and very specific offenses towards me over the course of 4 or 5 years… I not sure how many it is all a blur that now I can’t remenber because we left almost 2 years ago. Every step of the way I only wanted clarification. He had every right no to use me. I asked him over the years why was he encouraging me only to turn around and say no. My husband wants to know why it took him years to apologize to me and still continue to say he wouldn’t use me for YEARS. OK I’ve been vague because I didn’t want to be identified. This might reveal my identity to some. YEARS ago he had me attend worship practice for a year and not use me. I asked either use me or I won’t come to practice…not as a threat but it was a lot of time to sacrifice for naught. This is one example of dozens! Does anyone see why I might have been confused. My very last meeting with Eric and Trevor it came out that I did battle with feelings of rejection all my life. My situation with Eric did not help that any. Eric seemed to really want to help me. The following Sunday he excluded me form the ensamble. Even though I couldn’t sing on the worship team because of my idol he up to that point had let me sing on the ensamble. I asked him “I share with you my struggle with feelings of rejection and you reject me even more?” I knew I just could not emtionally stand it anymore. We left. I personally know quite a few families who left in part because of thier frustration with him. The hilgher ups think Eric will make things better??????????
Beloved Sheep,
Thank for sharing your story. I hope your healing from your experience is well underway. I am very disappointed to hear of Eric’s handling of your situation. The “idol” crap (can i use that word?) that SG leadership uses drives me absolutely NUTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! Just a tool to manipulate and condemn and put down and control. THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION. Absolutely nuts–yikes!
Just a P.S. Where is the encouragement. STOP the sin-management stuff SGM. Stop putting people under the law!!!!! Show some grace and encouragement and watch people blossom and come alive instead of becoming SG drones.
Dearest GDfS,
They would be horrified if people blossomed and came alive.
They would be horrified to see people shed the SG drone cloaks.
Yet this would be God’s desire for his people…It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Galations 5:1
Elizabeth said: I PROMISE you that blind ambition, haughty and proud…these are just not words that anyone that knows him would use to describe him.
I 100%, absolutely, totally agree with your statement about Eric Hughes.
I too knew Eric Hughes well. I agree, he does indeed have a good heart,and believe he is genuine. However, that being said, I am aware of his lack of judgment in many areas, including Beloved Sheep’s story, as well as another woman’s story at Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake, who had a very similar story as Esther’s, and who received the same council, but not from Brett Campbell, from Eric. I would like to agree with his aunt, to a degree, but he has been involved in SGM as a pastor for over 11 years, and part of the same team of men who have been asked by the three couples to step down. Indeed, he will be returning fresh froim the SGM PC Indoctrination. Heaven Help Him!
…Let me also add, the woman who received his “care” or “lack-there of” has filed for DIVORCE! Putting Eric Hughes in as an Eleventh Hour Pitch Hitter is like George Bush bringing on James Baker to saved his failed campaign against Bill Clinton…too little…too late!
Beloved Sheep,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to use your gifts to serve the Lord and edify the Body. Don’t let SGM error keep you from getting out there to sing for Jesus. No man can judge your heart. Only God knows what’s in there. If we all wait until we are perfect, none of us would ever serve God! SGM, in my experience, kept most of us fat, over-taught, over-corrected sheep in perpetual adolescence, never allowing us to move fully in our gifts. It was bad, bad form.
Take advice from a Canary – sing, sister saint! You are God’s Beloved Sheep, and have much to offer others.
Frivolity, At The Expense Of Others...
HowDee Ya’All,
Post: http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/3.....mment-9470
Was frivolity, at the expense of others.
Only Jesus knows the end from the beginning.
I, however do not.
I reeds dis someswheres:
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
Everybudy, Please forgive me!
I did a dodo on the carpet and I am really, really sorry. ;~(
Sopy
I must remember to edit before I press send. My great number of typing errors and unclear sentences are embarrassing! Despite my poorly constructed sentences it looks like I still made some sense. Thank you everyone for your kind words! I only shared that my story involved Eric because I fear for his future crop. While many will benefit from his good heart there WILL be those like me (and quite a few others I know of) who will be hurt by his lack of judgement. I can honestly say I love Eric and wish him well. I have been praying for the Holy Spirit to open his eyes in the areas he’s blind in. But because of the influences around him I have my doubts.
GDfS you are so right …”where is the encouragement?” Anyone using their talents MUST be alert to the possibilty of it being an idol. The couseling however must be done in a more encouraging manner and not so condemning. Eric never intended this, but I was really made to feel completely unworthy of serving in music. I LOVE to worship God in song. I currently sing on the worship team and in the choir. God has used the church I am in now to bring joy and freedom to my spirit. I will remember that it is for HIS glory and not mine because He is with me. Another area Eric is blind to is that many, many FEEL that the music ministry is “closed” and only for the inner circle. It’s been almost 2 years since I left and I still run into people who desired to use their talent at SGCC and were turned away. The church I am in now is huge. It is the heart of our worship leader to use ALL who have God given talent and want to truly worship the Lord! I know it isn’t realistic to be able to use everyone, but there shouldn’t be a widespread feeling that only the inner circle may be a part of the music ministry. Misperceived or not, there are countless who felt they were too old to be used. I was not the only one Eric said he would use and didn’t. I talked to a mom whose son was told by Eric he could play the guitar at 3:16. Eric used someone else without even getting back with her son. He was extremely hurt. This same mom, even though she sang on the team, felt out of the loop. This family left to go to a church where they could have friends. There ARE many similar stories from young and old alike who felt out of the loop. It really is a shame that these people never communicated with Eric. If they had he would have realized I wasn’t an isolated case. YES Eric has a GOOD heart but he has serious problems with communication and some serious lack of judgement. With some correct guidance he does have a lot of potential.
Sopy
you are funny and dear!
canary,
Thankyou!
How’Dee Ya’all,
I’ze still learn’in ta use da catbox!
Jim, a rolled newspapa works wondars! >snicker<
Sorry, Carole. Seriously.
In a little,
Sopy
Sop,
You’re forgiven. Thank you for your response.
Sopy–at least we can all be thankful that Jim and Carole don’t use the ‘stick your nose in the poop’ method of training.
If I had a dollar for everything I stuck my foot in my mouth, I could fund the trillion dollar bailout.
We’re all in this together, my brother.
Sopy!!!
No worries! We all make mistakes… thank you for your heart and your apology. And, of course, you are forgiven!
Thank You Jim.
Thank You Carole!
Thank You, Everybudy! >tears<
Tarnations, now if’n I’ze could juz get dis here foot outa ma mouth… >grin<
I’ze rememba, supos’ta be a pray’in befo I’ze a post’in…
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
P.S. I got a little “red” face chere…
Thanks so much for your apologies! Anyone that has known ME all of my life knows that I, too, could fund the bail-out if I had a dollar for every time that I made an inappropriate statement or joke….
Thank you, Jim and Carole, for getting right on it and being as alarmed about it as I was when I read it.
Carrol Elizabeth
Hello All,
I have only been following the blog for a couple of weeks, so I am a little hesitant to post because I don’t know everyone’s stories and I don’t want to offend anyone or minimize their hurt with a comment I leave. So, please forgive me if I say anything that doesn’t make sense in your situation.
I think Sopy’s (how did he put it?), “Doo doo on the carpet” (forgiveness and grace) is a good reminder to all of us that, no matter where we stand on all these issues and until God proclaims otherwise (on That Day), we should consider all who profess to be believers, to be just that – believers. (I mean this in a general “I’m not qualified to judge” kind of way). Forgiven, fallible, but family. There is confusion, miscommunication and estrangement at times, but I think the Bible would say, “brothers and sisters”. We belong to the largest dysfunctional family in the universe. We live in a fallen and disordered world where family dynamics are not easy and much time needs to be spent working through these challenges. But let’s keep persevering in the strength He provides. I have always been an old softy and my two daddy’s girls and a little bit of age make me a little softer. O, that there could be a giant family reunion with genuine forgiveness and love felt by all. This is unlikely in this life but I have hope and faith that Christ can do all things.
I often try to imagine “That Day” when we are all gathered around the throne singing as one. I don’t believe heaven will be segregated…SGM on one side and Survivors on the other…any more than I believe that believing Irish Catholics and Irish Presbyterians would be separated. No, that would allow room for sin. I believe our dysfunctional family will finally function. The imperfect clothed in perfection. “Behold He makes all things new”. I long for that Day – the Day when every wrong when will be righted, justice will be served (how, I am not sure, but Christ knows). Perfect, lasting, eternal love will be put on. The day when Larry + C.J., Kris + Guy, D.Harvey, Sopy, Jim+Carole, T+K…will stand shoulder to shoulder. When Elizabeth, Juli, Erik T, Che, Brent D, Remnant, Roy (oh yeah, he was really just a foolish immature imposter, but by God’s grace he’ll be there too) will sing with one voice. When PK, Protestant Dame, Greg, Eric H, Reform Teacher, D. Jones, (I tremble as I type this next one, but Christ wounds were deeper than all of ours) …Noel and Mark M and FCC will live in a new heaven and new earth where love is perfect.
“And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.” I Cor 13:13. These are the tools the Lord has given for us to navigate in this life… sojourners travelling through this world of woe. God gives us joy in the midst of our sorrow to help us not grow weary in doing good. The day is coming when we will lay down faith and hope. They will no longer be needed in His heavenly kingdom. Our faith will be made perfect when we see Him face to face. And all our hopes and dreams will be fulfilled in that moment. Love that is born imperfect in this life will be taken with us and perfected in heaven to become eternal. I believe that’s why it is, “the greatest of these”.
I love all of you, MY dysfunctional family. And, I pray with tears for the Day when in the twinkling of an eye, the trumpet will sound, and we will be raised as one. I guess all of that to say, pray – as Erik T said, “that we all experience the mercy of God in the end” and to remember to long for that Day.
Sorry it was so long and sort of preachy but I hope you can hear my heart. Please forgive me if using your names offended you.
Beloved Sheep and all,
I know a gentleman who wanted to teach a bible study in his own home – and actually invited some friends over to study together. This was not a formal church sponsored event. When the pastors heard about it, they confronted the man and asked him to examine his heart for sin. This mature saint had been a recognized elder in every other church he had attended, had taught bible studies and had even taught from the pulpit in other churches. He had attended the SG church for over ten years. And yes – they thought it was sin for him to want to get together with others and teach/discuss the bible. And to clarify – his teaching was in accordance to the church’s stated doctrines; it was not meant to stir up any trouble. And it was not at a time to compete with any church events.
I think the pastors need to examine their hearts for sin of discouraging the saints to fullfill the work of the ministry. (Ephesians 4:12)
It’s A Long Walk Home
I hear your heart, and mine beats in perfect harmony because it is Christ in us, the hope of glory. One heart in one body!!! Welcome to you!
It’s a Long Walk Home-
Thank you! I wish your comment could serve as a banner over this site.
So well put, so true. Excellent!
Jim,
2 of my msgs say “awaiting moderation.” Please delete them, I’m unable to.
Its a Long walkhome – good msg, pointing our way to our great and blessed hope! Brings much perspective. Thanks.
I hope the best for all.
It’s a Long Walk Home:
Fabulous post. Wonderful perspective for us all! Looking greatly forward to the Day . . .
In Him,
P.D.
Cala….You have got to be kidding me! What is sinful about conducting a bible study? I need to know. That is bothersome……………
Cala, I’ve heard similar stories. How very sad. I thought we were to exhort one another and use our gifts, even teaching gifts.
Long Walk, ooohhhh good heart,,,,lovely
Sopwith, thats about the funniest apology I ever read. You’re hysterical.
Cala,
I have a theory about why independent Bible studies are forbidden in SGM. All interactions between SGMers seem to be “controlled” by someone in church leadership — either the pastors or care group leaders. If SGMers get together on their own, they might begin to discuss some of these “oddities” with one another outside of the leadership’s control.
For those of you who are either current or former SGMers, is it there freedom of choice in which care group one joins or is one “assigned” to a specific care group?
You hit the bulls eye Wanda. It’s all about control but primarily control by the pastors. There are some care group leaders at SGCC who are very controlliing but they are the ones who have totally stopped thinking for themselves and have completely submitted to the pastors. (Remember Bucky’s story about her cgl.) You will also find other care group leaders who are more independent but they are probably asleep and oblivious to what is really going on in SGM, to one degree or another. If they were making waves, they would no longer be care group leaders.
The pastors are really the ones most controlled. They are controlled by the apostles and CJ whether they realize it or not. If they were truly thinking for themselves and voicing opposition, would they be allowed to stay on as pastors or would they be forced out? I think they are forced out.
My guess is that you will find this control factor very hidden at SGCC these days. It’s there but very well hidden because of everything that has happened in the last 9 mos.
FRED
Very Well Put. The control will be more subtle, akin to placing a frog in a pot of luke warm water and slowly, ever-so-slowly, turning up the heat. The frog dies, and never knows it. This is what has happened, and as the events of the past 9 months have unfolded, will continue to happen, unless those who are still within SGCC wake up and take some action.
Bucky, hope I didn’t offend you when I referred to you as “her” cause actually, you might be a “him”. Let’s see Bucky O’Hare is a “him”…. Either way, sounded like from an earlier post that your cgl was very controlling: questionning your salvation, not letting you have pool parties unless he was there, etc….
Greener Pastures, Thanks. I like your frog analogy. Sure does fit this situation. Sure hope that those still in SGCC are awake and know that just cause the pastor is changing that real change is not necessarily there. Look for real change in doctrine, church government, relationships etc,……
HowDee, Ya’all,
I faithfully submit that any church that will follow Christ, Jesus in their homes and in the their public gatherings will find: The fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance.
With out fear.
Pastors in Sovereign Grace Miniseries, Are you faithfully following Christ, Jesus?
Or some other?
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Wanda,
Bible studies are not “done” within SGM churches mainly for the simple reason of not adding more programs to the schedule. Unfortunately, Bible studies are reduced to another “to do” on the list. Bible studies aren’t prohibited, but encouraged to be done more on a “grass roots” basis. More of the “Hey, I’m thinking through James, you wanna study it with me?” basis than a study organized and rune dead into the ground because it’s organized by church leadership and thereby requires being kept alive. And, of course, there is the legitimate reality that Bible studies and official church-body teaching aren’t the same, but are often confused as such.
As for community groups/care groups, there’s no problem with leaving one group to join another for legitimate reasons (i.e. leaving a group because one can’t stand X person is not a legitimate reason for leaving, but rather is unaddressed sin). Pastor’s will advise people on what groups might fit them better, but the final decision is conviction lead by the Holy Spirit.
Jacob,
This is an area of pastoral preference and varies in SGC’s
Jacob writes, “Bible studies are not “done” within SGM churches mainly for the simple reason of not adding more programs to the schedule.”
Isn’t Bible study kinda like central? If it isn’t what is?
Jacob said: Bible studies are not “done” within SGM churches mainly for the simple reason of not adding more programs to the schedule. Unfortunately, Bible studies are reduced to another “to do” on the list. Bible studies aren’t prohibited, but encouraged to be done more on a “grass roots” basis. More of the “Hey, I’m thinking through James, you wanna study it with me?” basis than a study organized and rune dead into the ground because it’s organized by church leadership and thereby requires being kept alive. And, of course, there is the legitimate reality that Bible studies and official church-body teaching aren’t the same, but are often confused as such.
Jacob, Your response is so very sad. Sad that one would think that a Bible study is adding another program to the schedule and adding another thing to the do list. Why aren’t your folks hungry for the Word? Hungry to study and learn more? Why isn’t studying God’s word seen as a joy and not seen as just another thing to do? Very, very sad.
Also, why do the pastors have to control everything even Bible studies. I believe that we can trust Holy Spirit dwelling within believers for discernment and the ability to study God’s Word without a pastor present or overseeing the study. Also, some in the flock have been given the gift of teaching from God and should be able to operate in that gift, serving the Body.
This right here is one of the many reasons why I am so glad that I left my former SGC and am now in a church that trusts God and is not relying on men!!
Jacob,
Thanks for your response. Can you further clarify a couple of things for me about care groups?
When someone joins a SG church, do they get to decide which Care Group to attend or are they assigned to a particular group?
You said that leaving a group because you can’t stand X person is not a legitimate reason for changing groups. Why not?
And what is the purpose of these care group get-togethers?
Also, did you read Cala’s comment (4/1, 3:12 pm)? Sounds like she’s describing someone who wanted to do a Bible study on a “grass roots” basis as you described. Why was he not allowed to conduct a Bible study? Wouldn’t that be a legitimate church activity for those who voluntarily choose to participate? What church activity could possibly be more important than studying God’s Word together?
Jacob – At CLC you are assigend to a CG and when the CG were reorganized you were assigend to a differnet one that might be completely changed or with new people. New members are assigned to CG as well. it is possible to change your CG but hard, and your convicition lead by the Holy Spirit is not the ulitmate authority, it is your pastors who decide if you are allowed to switch.
Re: biblestudies – I know from experience that my CG, which was lead by a person who went through seminary – had to fight to be allowed to go through a book of the Bible instead of a regular book for a period of time. They do not see CG as the time to go through teh Bible but instead as a time of fellowship.
I moved this post from “Chesapeake” to C-revisited because no one has commented on Brett C. Whats going on with him…….he seemed to have crawled under the carpet???????
I would also like to know why people/couples stay a member of SGCC when they have been removed by “lack of gifting”, would it be fear to go anywhere else???
Bucky
March 29th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Wow! I think I would have left completely(being Keith) than have to sit under G.E. In my (humble) opinion……Brett Campbell seemed to have gotten out of the fire pretty easily. He’s the one that should have gone too! Maybe they should go together……………..
No wonder Keith did not want an exit interview, we were willing……..so what, who cares, they are out of here and so am I.
By the way, We joined our new Church today! It’s oficial…yeah!!!!! It was wonderful to have so many people come up after the service and welcome you. The Church is growing and the Lord is moving in there, so much so, next week we start 2 services! Wow, God is so good, always!
Ellie, glad you found the Sam Storms link and I hope you are enjoying it as much as we have!
I have heard so much about Care Groups in SGM, and I have been wanting to ask this question.
If you join a Sovereign Grace church, are you required to be a member of a Care Group as well? What if someone who joined SGM was participating in Bible Study Fellowship or some similar Bible study that lasts most of the year and didn’ t have time to belong to a Care Group at that point in time?
Just trying to understand the requirements of SGM membership . . .
Good point Bucky! Why the silence on Brett Campbell and Trevor Haynes who were also asked to step down? Gene has said nothing about them and nothing about the investigation that he and the apostolic leaders were to initiate because of the issues brought forward in Dec. Doesn’t the flock have a right to know what is happening in the very church that they support with their tithes and offerings?
Wanda,
Yes, you are “required” to attend Care Group if you become an SGM member. Where I attended, we were also “required” to serve one month a year in children’s ministry, on top of whatever areas you were already serving in.
Unofficial bible studies were not permitted. Also, a friend of mine who moved in the healing gift would pray for women and their children whenever she had a chance (my son’s eye was healed after she prayed for him). Leaders didn’t like this lady being out of their “supervision”, so they reigned her in to only pray for others up front after the meetings. It squelched her gift. She began to sin-dig, like they were teaching. It really messed her up. She doesn’t walk in that healing gift, today. Her SGM experience has made her one of the walking wounded.
There was also a time when we were required to submit a form to our pastor if we wished to have any type of party. I was actually refused a request to have a Christmas party because someone else in the church was having one. We didn’t even invite the same people. Don’t know if this still goes on today. That was in the early 90′s.
Jacob–thanks for your post. One thing I love about the reformation is Sola Scriptura–the belief that life is found only in the inerrant Word of God. So if SGM is reformed…why would Bible study be just simply another thing on your list of weekly to-do’s, instead of the primary thing to do?
Another most excellent thought that was clarified during the Reformation was the Priesthood of the Believer, based on 1 Peter 2:9:
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Each of us has the ability to ‘proclaim the excellencies of’ God. We don’t need permission to do so.
In fact, we are each urged, in 2 Tim 2:15, to ”Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”
Bucky–I totally agree-I am always mystified to see removed pastors still sitting in the pews mainlining the KoolAid–at the very least it is weird to have a former pastor in the congregation. It is really weird to have a fired former pastor, or a demoted former pastor, in the pews. How easy is it for them to worship in freedom sitting in the same congregations?
Such good news that you found a new Body to worship with in freedom! God is gracious.
Jacob-
Your post is unbelievable…
Bible studies muck up the precious schedules of the church???
You’re kidding right?
Wanda–BSF or CBS (Community Bible Study) would be HIGHLY discouraged, HIGHLY HIGHLY discouraged.
HIGHLY!
Canary–
GOOD NIGHT ARE YOU KIDDING ME????
What the heck? Why, in your exalted opinion, was the party rule in place?
RT,
So, you mean sort of discouraged?
Love you Jesus!
Much Afraid,
On April 1st, 2009 at 8:02 am here on sgmrefuge, you said;
“Sopy, you are funny and dear!”
Thank You!
Yea, I’ze kinda mangy, but Jesus loves me!
and I’ze really, really loves Him, berry berry much!
I’ze rememba dis here say’in:
The zeal of my Fathers’ house hath eaten me up.
Yep, I love Him…sure do!
I’ze also rememba diz too:
My sheep hear my voice, and I, Jesus, know them, and they follow me…
Blessings!
Sopy
Canary and Wanda:
At my old SGM church, you were never required to attend caregroup. Now if you did not attend you would get questions about why you were not coming and you certainly would not be asked to serve in any meaningful way and the husband would surely not be considered for any leadership positions but there was no formal requirement that you attend caregroup.
RT,
Pretty ridiculous, huh? The Pastor thought it would be too difficult for members to “choose” which party to attend if they got too many invites, and also didn’t want any conflicts with the church clandar. Oober controller…
When I obediently (yuck, finger down my throat) submitted my form for a Christmas party and was refused, it left this little canary with her beak hanging open. What? WHAT? The feeling of being summarily dismissed…well, I have never forgotten it. That happened in my church in the early 90′s, so I don’t know if it is still going on.
formersgmer,
Ha, you’re funny. In other words, you were seriously “encouraged” to attend Care Group?
I remember having to call and excuse myself from CG (where I was suppose to babysit), only to be denied my request. Like a good little (duped) sheep, I did my duty.
Canary–
Have to run. Need to tie my jaw back up onto the rest of my face. Good night, woman, welcome to freedom!
Hey, SGMers–
It is for freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. — Galatians 5:1
(This is from the Bible, not an SGM approved book. The author of this line trumps any author you can cite.)
Come out and be free, my brethren!!!!!!!
Jim–you nailed it. Sort of.
Fred said at …………It’s all about control but primarily control by the pastors. There are some care group leaders at SGCC who are very controlliing but they are the ones who have totally stopped thinking for themselves and have completely submitted to the pastors. (Remember Bucky’s storyabout her cgl.) You will also find other care group leaders who are more independent but they are probably asleep and oblivious to what is really going on in SGM, to one degree or another. If they were making waves, they would no longer be care group leaders.
Remember the two Chesapeake care group leaders that spoke up for “Esther” and were “abruptly” fired in December after disagreeing with their pastors………………. was this a case of control?
What about the other Chesapeake CG leaders (BB, CP and others) that have been “fired” over the years for no real reason at all other than the old “prideful, unteachable, self-righteous” excuses………….were these cases of control?
What about the various pastors in that same church that had to “step down” over the years for nebulous reasons……….were these cases of control?
Why was Eric Hughes abruptly exiled to the PC? Was this a case of control? Was it due to a disagreement?
Did Keith Breault and Gene Emerson hatch this scheme to get Eric out of the way?
so many questions…….so little time………….
N.S.L.B.
Hi All – Haven’t been here in a while, so I thought I should say hello before jumping back in.
Jacob – I must say that I have to respectfully disagree with your perspective on every one of those points. I have much to say on these issues, both from personal experience as well as from what I’ve observed over several years, but unfortunately I don’t have the time right now to go into detail. I’ll return later today to share my perspectives and observations.
However, I do have a question. When you say that the final decision is based on conviction by the Holy Spirit, conviction of who’s heart? The Pastors? The CGLs? Or the Members? I believe that SGM as a whole, and certainly at my local church level, does NOT encourage members to seek direction from the Holy Spirit. In fact, I will go so far as to say that they will go to great lengths to interrogate and manipulate members who have heard from the Holy Spirit IF it differs from what they (the pastors) want you to hear and the direction they want you to take.
I have much to say on these issues.
Canary:
I would say “encouraged” would not be the way in which you or I or others might normally think of that term.
Also, speaking of babysitting, I can recall times at my SGM church when I would be asked to babysit for a pastor and his wife and not really feeling like I could say no to the request because the request was put to me in a subtle manipulative type of manner. Ever experience one of those conversations?
What SGM church did you attend? I am sure you have said before but I forgot.
formersgmer,
I was in Fairfax, and then in Charlotte until 1997, when I and my family fled for our freedom.
Yes, I babysat for pastor and wife on many occasions. I have to say that, in turn, a dear friend of my husband’s babysat for us every Friday night for years, just to give us time alone as our family grew. His heart was so sweet to want to help us. Completely different from being manipulated into serving!
Quizzler:
My understanding from others here on this blog was that EH was sent to the Pastors College in preparation for a church planting in Charlottesville, VA. I do not think Eric was being exiled from the Cheseapeake church or otherwise controlled. Also I think he is now being brought back because of all of the pastors at the church he probably has the least damaged reputation and is generally thought of as a good guy and he and his extended family are probably some of the longerst tenured members in the church.
I do know him a bit personally as well as his dad and brother, Augie, and I always found Eric to be someone who genuinely wants to serve and honor and Glorify God and so I would not be surprised if he was thought of as the best positioned to help restore the reputation of the pasrtoral team in that church.
On another matter, does anyone know if SGM’s national financial state had anything do with Eric’s repositioning (gotta love that term!) to be SP in Cheseapeake rather than leading a church plant? I recently saw that SGM canceled the Small Group Leaders Conference scheduled for later this year due to the financial crisis and I had never seen SGM cancel an event for lack of funding.
Given that SGM normally provides new church plants with a start up grant, I was wondering if the SGM was not able now to financially assist a church plant in Charlottesville and the situation in Chesepeake provides a convenient segway to still install Eric as a Senior Pastor but not have to disclose any information about SGM experiencing financial difficulties?
Canary:
I was also in fairfax. I probably know you.
formersgmer said at ……………..”Given that SGM normally provides new church plants with a start up grant, I was wondering if the SGM was not able now to financially assist a church plant in Charlottesville and the situation in Chesepeake provides a convenient segway to still install Eric as a Senior Pastor but not have to disclose any information about SGM experiencing financial difficulties?”
The financial diIfficulties at the Chesapeake church are well known, based on the number of staff members that have sought (or are seeking) employment elsewhere. If finances were the real issue that stopped the Charlottesville church plant, why would Keith Breault and Eric have flip-flop’d, with Keith being positioned to plant a church? Based on your supposition, Keith’s church plant won’t happen any time soon…………hmmmmmm????
So………….. if finances weren’t the reason for bringing Eric back, what was?
so many questions………………so little time
N.S.L.B.
Former: Ouch! Now you’ve touched on another really sore subject. In our former SGM church, the pastors expected young, single women and others in the church to babysit at their beck and call without ever offering compensation. Often, they even gave these women/girls a list of dates a month in advance, month after month. These young women/girls are too intimidated and shy to tell the pastors no. It seems like a form of servitude.
Quizzler: Again, you have brought up some very interesting questions. Eric was known to be loved by everyone and quite honestly was doing a great job as executive pastor. Eric was always busy - forming teams of lay people for specific ministries, organizing worship, 316, singles, etc., overseeing E teams to Mexico…. Quite honestly, I have wondered what the other pastors were doing other than counseling which we now know was abusive and controlling. Of course, they do take an awful lot of retreats.
Everyone that I know of loved Eric’s Sunday morning messages and received quite a lot from them. It was quite shocking to hear that he was leaving. When he left, it seemed as though everything shut down and fell apart and much of what had been hidden was revealed. It was quite interesting to note that once Eric left, all of the pastors were over 316 and singles (until recently when Albert took over singles.) Many mysteries, much to ponder….. such as why was Albert forced to step down as creative director a month ago but is now on his way to the PC?
The care group leaders that you mentioned had very healthy cg’s when the pastors disbanded them and the people in the groups loved their leaders. Interesting, both of these men had been pastors in other denominations. HMMM…..
Former said: Given that SGM normally provides new church plants with a start up grant, I was wondering if the SGM was not able now to financially assist a church plant in Charlottesville and the situation in Chesepeake provides a convenient segway to still install Eric as a Senior Pastor but not have to disclose any information about SGM experiencing financial difficulties?
I believe that it was announced last Sunday that Keith will be planting a church either in Charlottesville or Williamsburg after a 9 mos. church planting internship with Gene Emerson so I would say that finances are not behind Eric coming back to Chesapeake.
Hey folks! It seems my last comment needs a little clarification. When I said “not adding more programs to the schedule” regarding the Bible studies, I simply meant that the schedule of the church is left open, so that things like a Bible study can more easily be done. In no way am I implying that a Bible study is a wrench in the church’s schedule. Obviously, learning the riches of the glory of Jesus Christ in his Word to us is immensely important to Christians, and indeed the Holy Spirit’s conduit of life for us personally and communally. I’m rather saying that a church’s official schedule is thinned so that those things which members feel would benefit them are more easily done; like having a Bible study.
Jacob,
I’ve seen two cases of these “grassroots” Bible studies be “strongly discouraged” specifically because they were NOT under the covering of the church.
jacob–thanks for the clarification. You must attend an very unusual SGM church, that is a wonderful thing to hear. I suspect that PK’s church is like yours? I rejoice with you in your freedom in Christ, brother!!!
Jacob said:
“And, of course, there is the legitimate reality that Bible studies and official church-body teaching aren’t the same, but are often confused as such.”
I’m not sure what you mean by this statement. Can you clarify?
I don’t understand why I (and others) are having trouble understanding you, Jacob?
Jacob-
Thanks for clarifying-I’m glad to hear it!
peace-mm
Oh yes, “the covering of the church.” Will someone pass a bag; I feel a little ill. How did any of us buy into that manipulative tool?
I must admit that now I’m confused. Does SGM allow its members to organize Bible studies or not? As authoritarian as SGM appears to be, surely the policy on doing “grass roots” Bible studies doesn’t vary that much from church to church. Somehow I find that difficult to believe given what I now know about Sovereign Grace Ministries.
For those of you who have participated in these “grass roots” Bible studies, did you uses study materials or just your Bibles? And which Bible do you use? I have participated in MANY Bible studies, so I’m asking out of curiousity.
I have appreciated all the responses to my questions. Curiosity is one of my greatest strengths (and at times weaknesses).
Jacob said: Hey folks! It seems my last comment needs a little clarification. When I said “not adding more programs to the schedule” regarding the Bible studies, I simply meant that the schedule of the church is left open, so that things like a Bible study can more easily be done. In no way am I implying that a Bible study is a wrench in the church’s schedule. Obviously, learning the riches of the glory of Jesus Christ in his Word to us is immensely important to Christians, and indeed the Holy Spirit’s conduit of life for us personally and communally. I’m rather saying that a church’s official schedule is thinned so that those things which members feel would benefit them are more easily done; like having a Bible study.
I say: WHHAAAAAAATTTTTT???? Does anyone else understand this?? I may be missing something but this sounds like a confusing, cooky coverup to Jacob’s original post and smacks of SGM-speak to me.
Wanda–where I live, which shall at this point remain nameless, there is only one group that meets outside of the CG, but it is led by a PC graduate staffer.
The Care Groups in this place, as far as I can tell, so these are not specific stats and I don’t have a chart, don’t simply study the Word together, nor do they use a Bible study, either book-based or topic-based, like you or I might think of…Navigators, SBC, PCA, Campus Crusade, blah, blah, blah.
They read a SGM approved book, or discuss the sermon.
I think the answer is patently obvious.
No.
I am with you on curiosity. I am, like you, insatiably curious. Why not???
Here in AZ – I concur. It truly does smack of SGM speak, specifically pastoral. So Jacob, are you certain that your SGM church would encourage Bible Study outside of the “covering of the church”? I’m NOT speaking of personal Bible study time, but rather communal Bible study or even very small group Bible study. Because it has been my experience that ANY gathering together of believers outside of SGM sanctioned gatherings WITH pastoral or CGL covering, whether for the purpose of Bible study or for general accountability or encouragement, are not only frowned upon, but specifically discouraged.
I, too, am aware of more than one situation where people that I know specifically were asked (told) not to gather together for the purpose of Bible study, fellowship, encouragement, education, and accountability solely due to the fact that their gatherings were not under the “protective covering of proven church leaders”. In the cases that I am aware of all parties were mature enough in their faith and walks with Christ to have carried out the intended purposes of their gatherings in trustworthy and God honoring manners.
This is a terrifying and disgusting level of control when Believers…Christians…who love Christ, are told that they can not gather with other believers to discuss His word, grow in their faith, encourage each other, or hold each other accountable…due to the fact that there is not a proven SGM leader to provide a covering. THIS is one of the main reasons we left our SGM church. Christ is our covering and we could no longer sit under mere men who had attempted to thieve CHRIST of His proper place in our lives.
Dear SGM Christians, please open your eyes and remember your first love, the one who stands before His Father and pardons your sin, the one who has called you to BOLDLY approach the throne of grace, the one who has called you to PREACH the GOOD NEWS of the GOSPEL to non-believers, the one who has told you that you do not need a MEDIATOR, the one who has told you to have no FEAR of MAN! It should not even be a topic of discussion as to whether or not you are permitted to gather together with other believers to study the precious WORD of GOD! WHY is this a topic of discussion in SGM?!?! Please ask yourself this question and examine your own answer against WHO you are in CHRIST…not who you are as a member of SGM.
Ok, I’m here in Chesapeake and I will tell you I know Bucky and the Care group control they were in. I was in the same CG. I signed up for a Bible study outside of SGCC and it was at a local Church up the street. It was on I Kings and I Chronicles. It was really good. I actually went with another SGCC member. When I told my CGL wife I was going, I was told “you better be careful, blah blah blah”. I said “how bad can it be, it’s at XYZ Church?” It wasn’t Beth Moore but someone similar and she escapes me right now!
Thank God I am officially AN EX SGCER!!!!!! Not an ALMOST anymore and I’m so happy, oh so happy! Makes me want to sing! I am FREE!!!!!!
Hey Quizzler….I’ve been out of the loop posting but I’ve been reading………Could you do a “pop quiz” on Brett Campbell????? even a question or 2 on Trevor while you are at it? What are those initials you now put under yuor post????
OFFICIALLY an Ex sgc-er said at…………….”Could you do a “pop quiz” on Brett Campbell????? even a question or 2 on Trevor while you are at it? What are those initials you now put under yuor post????”
The Quizzler usually doesn’t do personal quizzes (so as not to encourage pride in those that are the subject of the quiz) although it’s been said that both of these pastors were involved in counseling “Esther.”
Others here, however, may have their own stories they would like to share.
As for the initials at the foot of The Quizzler’s comments – N.S.L.B.
What do those initials stand for? ……….
A) No Straw Less Bricks
B) None Still Listen Boldly
C) None Saved Look Back
D) No Sheep Left Behind
E) Nobody Sees Like Bereans
……………….stay tuned for the answer.
N.S.L.B.
Bucky said:
Cala….You have got to be kidding me! What is sinful about conducting a bible study? I need to know. That is bothersome……………
From what I understand the conversation went somewhat like this:
Pastor: “Why do you want to teach this portion of the Bible”
Laity: “Because Romans is so wonderful and crucial for the Christian walk”
Pastor: “Do you think that it is not being taught by the Pastors?”
Laity: “Actually, it is not being taught currently.”
Pastor: “You are in rebellion to the church leadership and are being prideful and arrogant.”
BE Bold,
Be Bold!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Canary,
I was @ Fairfax, 90s…
Can you say BBBBBenny?
I can still hear him say:
“(censored)(1) …your pockets!” “We’se got dis here build’in ta build!” >snicker<
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
_____
Notes: (1) I censored my self this time! he he he
“In This Together…”
Dear, Dear, RT,
Thanx! >grace to you!<
“In dis todether…”
U Bet!
Punch dis into YouTube- MOb8ihacSM4
With de deepest reeee_spect! Count on it!
Jesus’s Sopy
Re:Wanda – this is probably one of the many rules that are not clarified for the members – most items there is no published rule to the members even if there might be one to other pastors. I think there is also great differences in the churches in regards to when rules are enforced based on how “in the cult” the church is at the time. I can tell you from my experience at CLC – the mothership – that Bible studies were strongly discouraged – both in and out of CG. In response to complaints about this they started a summer school where they would do a bible topic at night during the summers once a week for a month or so, don’t know if they still do this, but this was more a lecture led by them. I do know from talking to pastors that there is a belief that and study of the Bible should be lead by a person who has been trained – i.e. gone through at least care group leaders trainings – and they think that the community Bible studies are one of the main problems with the current evangelical church. Their reasoning is that people are getting together and saying what they think scripture says without anyone in authority, so it teaches people that scripture means to you what you think, and to someone else what they think and this leads to the relativism and lack of authority of scripture that the Christian culture has. I also know that they definitely believe that a Bible study with people form other churches is wrong – and accountability with them and even implied is close friendships with them. I was told on many times how it was unequal yoking because you have different authorities and beliefs and there might be conflict in what was taught by them vs. the church. I was told that your close friendship and relationships and who you learn from should naturally have the same beliefs as you and therefore doing a Bible study outside the church is bad. This is a pretty clear teaching by CLC pastors at least to those who inquire. Now I am sure that many people are in bible studies outside the church but the pastors – who have 100s of people under them – probably have no idea that it is going on or haven’t bothered to talk to them about it yet.
In 10 + years at SGCC, there was never even ONE Bible study offered. There were people that I know doing Bible studies in other churches and community Bible studies but this was totally on their own without pastors’ knowledge.
When I read Be Bold’s words, my heart cried out within me because this is the truth. Why would this discussion about Bible studies even be a topic of conversation? BE Bold said: Dear SGM Christians, please open your eyes and remember your first love, the one who stands before His Father and pardons your sin, the one who has called you to BOLDLY approach the throne of grace, the one who has called you to PREACH the GOOD NEWS of the GOSPEL to non-believers, the one who has told you that you do not need a MEDIATOR, the one who has told you to have no FEAR of MAN! It should not even be a topic of discussion as to whether or not you are permitted to gather together with other believers to study the precious WORD of GOD! WHY is this a topic of discussion in SGM?!?! Please ask yourself this question and examine your own answer against WHO you are in CHRIST…not who you are as a member of SGM.
We have to ask ourselves the question: why are SGM churches not opening there doors regularly for Bible studies and why are they not allowing the flock to use their God given gifts, including the gift of teaching. We know that they are not allowing many with the gifts/talents of singing and music to use their gifts as well. Again, it all goes back to control and not trusting God. When you don’t trust God, you rely on man. For the sake of the Gospel as we have all heard over and over during our time within SGM, people still in SGM churches, rise up and awaken to the fact that you have all the rights and privileges of sons and daughters in Christ Jesus and this includes being set free to live the abundant life that He died to give you.
Trust that Holy Spirit is dwelling within you and you can trust Him to guide and direct you.
PS The whole Bible study thing reeks of Catholicism. The people could not read the Bible for themselves but had to go through the priests. The priests were the only ones who could translate and interpret the Scriptures.
I know that there has been much discussion on this but it is worth saying again. More and more it appears that the whole movement is embedded in Catholicism with CJ as the head (pope) with the apostles (cardinals) and local pastors (priests).
Did Brent D leave SGM last fall?
If so, why?
Hi old-timer.
Brent did not leave SGM, but resigned from the apostolic team, and planted a SGM church near Crossway.
Presbyterian:
Their reasoning is that people are getting together and saying what they think scripture says without anyone in authority, so it teaches people that scripture means to you what you think, and to someone else what they think and this leads to the relativism and lack of authority of scripture that the Christian culture has.
On the above point, I think SGM actually has a good position on this point because there is so much bad hermeneutics in the American evangelical church. If you want to good book which graciously addresess some of these concerns read “Why we are not Emergent” by Kevin DeYoung.
I also know that they definitely believe that a Bible study with people form other churches is wrong – and accountability with them and even implied is close friendships with them. I was told on many times how it was unequal yoking because you have different authorities and beliefs and there might be conflict in what was taught by them vs. the church. I was told that your close friendship and relationships and who you learn from should naturally have the same beliefs as you and therefore doing a Bible study outside the church is bad.
On this point SGM is clearly wrong and elitist in their view. For example, if SGM is truly reformed (which I do not think they are), why could not SGM members have bible studies with members of a PCA or reformed baptist congregation because surely SGM would have general congruity with the doctrinal positions of thos denominations.
Sopwith, Canary & formersgmer – sounds like there are quite a few of us here from Fairfax in PDI/FCC “Home Group” days of the 90′s. We departed in ’98. While there was lots of pain from circumstances with Mark after we left, the scars have grown strong and God’s grace (as always) is sufficient.
Perhaps the most amazing thing to me was the transformation that took place at FCC over just a few years. As the point of control shifted more and more towards the “mother church” and the number of locally-grown pastors/leaders were winnowed down so that Mark and “PC-ized” staff could be brought in, the nature of the church changed dramatically.
Maybe it is looking back with somewhat rose-colored glasses, but it seems like the church was at it’s best when things were at their most challenging. Meeting in rented school buildings; hours of labor to set-up and pack-up; the philosophy that Sundays were a time of celebration and “church” happened in the true fellowship of a Home Group. As a very new believer when we came to FCC, I will always be grateful for the hours that our Homegroup Leaders spent with us in God’s Word and praying with and for us.
My sadness comes from the corruption of of that wonderful time and experience by actions and decisions of a few men. I have no way of knowing what is in their hearts, but God does and He will eventually deal with it, as he will for all of us.
The few leaders at SG Fairfax that remain from the FCC days were wonderful men with hearts filled with love for Christ when I last spent time with them. I hope and pray that this is still true. Perhaps they are the root that will eventually bring correction from within SGM. If things have changed in their lives, I pray that God will restore to them their first love and help them recall the image of the Acts 2:42 church that we were striving for in those not-so-distant days.
Fred wrote, “When you don’t trust God, you rely on man.” This truth is the heart of the problem; everything wrong flows from this underlining supposition.
Even when I, as an individule, want to control my environment and rely on myself, I am living in the flesh. The flesh is humanity living INDEPENDANTLY from God. Often we don’t even do it consciencely, but we do it. The control that is discussed and experienced by many here is a testimony to what happens when the “church” machinery runs fully or partially independantly of their power sourse. The mess that is left causes us to cry out, “where is the life?”
Well, the only LIFE available to us comes from HIM, as a gift. And that LIFE cannot be packaged and marketed by even the best man-made efforts. We cannot turn it on at 10am on a Sunday morning, no matter how good the music and experience seems to be. Again the LIFE springs from within, “Christ in you, the hope of glory!” It doesn’t originate with the “worship” team and the “meeting,” not even leadership–imagine that???
Fred–so often, I see the remnants and whispers of Catholicism in SGM–why not? It was formed by two former Catholics who never attended a seminary, and CJ, to this day, is not formally trained in a reformed or evangelical seminary.
How ironic is it that they (he) demand(s) “training” before Bible studies can be done.
Is this not the pot calling the kettle black?
ROFL!!!
Sad But Free:
Nice post. Even Before we left our SGM church, I was nostalgic for the days in the school because in those days there was a sense of collective ownership of the mission of the church because everyone needed to serve either in childen’s ministry to help set up and take down (remember the carpet squares), set up and take down the sound equipment and set up and take down the book table. Once the fairfax church moved into is building, there was less to do and I think people became very settled and, shall i say, a little bit lazy about serving. Furthermore, I do not think the pastors helped (especially after mark arrived) by so controlling the serving opportunties that no one was able to serve in any meaningful way other than doing hospitality.
As far as the new pastors being “PC-ized”, only two of the current group have been to the PC for an entire year. The other three have only taken various assorted classes but basically have no formal theological training.
Sad but Free and Sopwith:
I did not know you went to the fairfax church.
Sopwith:
When did you go to the fairfax church?
Hey Sopy,
This is off subject but why “sopwith”? My husband’s grandfather flew one.
Just wondering
ReformedTeacher said:
“So often, I see the remnants and whispers of Catholicism in SGM–why not? It was formed by two former Catholics who never attended a seminary, and CJ, to this day, is not formally trained in a reformed or evangelical seminary.”
RT,
Don’t forget about Jeff Purswell, Dean of the Pastors College, who is currently pursuing a Ph.D. in New Testament Studies from The Catholic University of America.
Not So Sad,
Glad to see that your sadness is leaving, even if a bit at a time.
I was in the Fairfax church when Benny Phillips began it (1979?). He left a Baptist church I was attending (he was the youth pastor) to begin a “new testament” church in someone’s basement. The church was young and full of zeal. Then, Brent came in around 1983 as the church became part of PDI. That resulted in a church split, elders whom we all trusted were asked to step down, and things around us slowly began to change.
My husband and I left Fairfax in 1992 to go to the Charlotte church plant. Unknowingly, that was our first step “out”. We ulitmately left for good in 1997. We were not in Fairfax during the Phillips’ fiasco (don’t know what else to call it), but that must have been very painful for everyone to loose such a long-time pastor.
Canary:
Would that be Calvary Hill Baptist church?
Wanda!! Oh crud–totally forgot the guy studying at the Catholic University. A bastion of reformed / charismatic / evangelical / arminian……….doctrines, yes?
Why there, I wonder? There are so many great schools? Is it because SGm just does not to ever want to be on a par with the rest of us?
That made me smile, my sister.
formersgmer,
Holy smokes, haven’t heard that name in years! Yes, Calvary Baptist, with Dr. G. If memory serves me, Dr. G. was very gracious about Benny leaving to start a church, even though people left Calvary to go with him. I believe Calvary Baptist closed down a few years later. That was sad.
Canary:
Calvary Hill Baptist church still exists. You can go to its website. I am sure now we know each other.
formersgmer,
Wow, glad to hear it. It must have moved during my time in Fairfax, a few years after Benny left. Or Dr. G. moved on.
If you think you know me, want to reconnect? Jim has my email address…
Canary
Jim has mine as well. Feel free to write me.
Okay. I’ll check in with Jim.
Canary,
Blessings!
The day of the “Charlotte church plant” dedication, prior to the send-off,
I was there, praying!
(Interesting enough, it was one of the Charlotte church plant families that asked us to “Run” –don’t walk, to the nearest exit, prior to their leaving to do the plant.)
We did!
Go figure?
Have we come full circle?
Jesus, your good, your really good!
In a little,
Sopy
Here’s a little Calvin to throw back in their faces. Did you know that old Calvin believed that even the”plough-boy” should be able to understand the words of the Bible?
Sopy,
Well, small world! Actually, and this might reveal who I am to some (oh well), my husband and I did not go on the initial team. We came later. No goodbyes, except our cg leader and family. We weren’t too pleasing to our pastor in Fairfax, who thought we should stay. So, no goodbyes…:(
OK–this is what I think.
If all of us got together, it would be Wanda, Doulos and me sitting at one table, and all y’all yucking it up since you all know each other, I suspect.
The body of Christ is huge and tiny, isn’t it?
Hey, Healing, Blessings To You!
HowDee!
You asked: (on April 3rd, 2009 at 10:36 am @ http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/3.....mment-9625)
“Hey Sopy, This is off subject but why “sopwith”? My husband’s grandfather flew one. Just wondering”
*
*
Am I a notorious winged vigilante with an ax to grind or am I –a two year old Acadian les Cadiens “cattus” juz look’in fer a warm meal and a warm place to rest ma bones?
Or maybe a little of both?
Hmmmm…
Decisions, Decisions…
Or is it: I have both Wings & Claws…
…and I use dem both? >snicker<
If so–
Dem wings would not be “attached” –to me…
And my “Claws” –wouldn’t theys bees da “The Word of God”?
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Respectfully,
In a little, ;~)
Jesus’ Sopy
Sopy,
Wings like eagles?
Fred said: (rhymes)”We have to ask ourselves the question: why are SGM churches not opening there doors regularly for Bible studies and why are they not allowing the flock to use their God given gifts, including the gift of teaching. We know that they are not allowing many with the gifts/talents of singing and music to use their gifts as well. Again, it all goes back to control and not trusting God. ”
It also reveals a not trusting of their people to DISCERN whether or not what they are hearing is truthful at these bible studies. Bible studies make you think and maybe they don’t want you to think. Unless its like they do. Control always leads to Legalism doesn’t it????
Top guy controls team, team controls pastors, pastors control CGLs, CGLs control people sometimes too. We need leaders to run things and take responsibility but we also need freedom to fulfill our own call that God puts on our hearts. But ya know, where legalism abounds Holy Spirit seems to exit.
Let us be faithful to the Spirit speaking to us. Just as he gives us prevenient grace to be saved so he gives us keeping grace to stay on the right track. Let us trust HIM
healing-can I have your dog?
RT- your 4:42 sounds like a party. I wanna hear you say, “GOOD NIGHT, WOMAN!”
Jim–
A party sounds like a good idea right now. Yes, decidedly. I could use a party.
Easter’s coming, though!!
Well, we can look forward to the time we see face to face, and not through this dim glass….and will laugh at ourselves fully.
Thanks for hanging in there with this site…how do you do it?
RT-
It’s easy right now, as I have nothing to say. I told myself to “be released” from the need to post. I quit reading CJ’s pontif…err.. blog, a while ago. Plenty of material there I’m sure, but I doubt it would reveal anything we don’t already know.
Just waiting for the next SGM train wreck to be revealed. I’m sure it won’t be too long of a wait. NC’s looking pretty ripe.
Sorry, Jim. She’s priceless. I’ve had dogs my whole life and this one is my favorite.
RT said:
“OK–this is what I think. If all of us got together, it would be Wanda, Doulos and me sitting at one table, and all y’all yucking it up since you all know each other, I suspect.”
That’s funny, but true! And I’d love to sit at the same table with you and Doulos! We certainly have LOTS to discuss!!!
I’m heading to our farm tomorrow with my hubby, so I’ll be out of touch. Have a great weekend!!!
Lion Heart,
You totally hit what I was thinking when you said: “It also reveals a not trusting of their people to DISCERN whether or not what they are hearing is truthful at these bible studies. Bible studies make you think and maybe they don’t want you to think. Unless its like they do. Control always leads to Legalism doesn’t it????”
I’ve always wondered why they don’t teach discernment and then release us to search out the scriptures together. I have felt totally stunted in my years at SGM. EVERYTHING seems to come back to control.
In my years at my church out west I was in one small Bible study about 10 years ago that we didn’t advertise. It was delightful, but sadly short-lived (now it sort of makes me wonder…). Since then, I have seen two other individuals try to start up studies, only to be shut down. I also know of 3 other instances where everyday church members tried to get a very small group together for a book discussion and were shut down.
In my last year there, I finally was so desperate for growing in my relationship with God that I sought out Bible Studies and classes at other churches. Studying the scriptures with fellow believers was like a breath of fresh air. In my bolder moments, I’ve mentioned attending these studies to others in the church. Usually, though, I just kept that to myself since I “knew” that it wasn’t the way things are supposed to be done. I did know that I would receive less grief for going somewhere else than trying to start something in my church. So sad.
Canary on April 3rd, 2009 at 5:05 pm @ http://sgmrefuge.com/2009/03/3.....mment-9652
You said:
“Sopy, Wings like eagles?”
Thanx! Canary!
I’ze rememba dat…
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Yea! >tearing up<
Tonight, I kid you not, I was hunting round in de local HomeGoods store, and I’ze hear dis lit’l gal tell her mommy,
‘Mommy, catz don’t have wings”.
What? You should’ve seen de look on ma face! ;~)
Yes, I’ze remember how Jesus, bare me on eagles’ wings, and brought me unto himself.
Hooray!
I give thanks to You, Lord Jesus; for You are good: Your mercy endures forever!
I’ze rememba someth’in:
There is dis river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early. The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
*
*
SOAPBOX:
Be it known unto all, even the people of SGM, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom some forgot, whom God did raised from the dead… This is the stone which was set at naught of the SGM builders, which is now become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Praise you Jesus!
In a little, ;~)
Sopy
Watching closely,
I never knew I wasn’t supposed to go to other bible studies so I always did. I knew many Christians in my city and it helped me avoid being inward. I personally need the discipline of bible study. It helps me do what I wouldn’t do on my own. I’m sorry you felt stunted. Young women especially need the encouragement and fellowship. I love the way studies are mixed generations. I hope you find one that is special to you.
No Other Name!
*
*
How’Dee Ya’All,
*
Yes, this is the stone, Jesus, which has been rejected by the SGM builders, but which has become the head of the corner. All Authority RESTS with Jesus, Now! And there is now salvation in no one else but Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
*
Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ, if you are in a Sovereign Grace Ministries affiliated church and your first devotion is to Christ Jesus, who redeemed you by His precious blood, demonstrate that devotion by kneeling in devotion TO CHRIST where ever your meetings take place, as a demonstration to Jesus and to all who attend:
*
“There is “no other” but You, Jesus, given to me to be saved!”
*
*
Praise God, Almighty!
*
Praise You Jesus!
*
*
In Christ, ;~)
*
Sopwith
I had to post the message that Thomas had today. Very appropriate for SGM refugees.
http://brothomasblog.blogspot.com/
Be Not Afraid
Don’t get hardened into dogma-encased mentalism. The Spirit can be appreciated through the intellect, through reason, logic, analysis . . . but it is in the heart where Spirit becomes real and drawing . . . . The Truth is more felt than understood . . . through the heart. Religion comes from the mind, through constructs, falsified edifices of concept, idea . . . . The Truth, God, who Reveals…..and meets the soul, instructs the living being …… circumvents all of the man-made dross and Speaks direct to the heart, to the soul . . . . This is often a bit terrifying and disconcerting . . . for the Lord shatters illusion, lies–hates lies–of all kinds, but especially those purporting to be “religious”, “spiritual” . . . and oftentimes . . . He teaches one thing . . . while so-called “scriptures” have been interpreted and “wrought” to mean another thing . . . . And so, the seeker must choose, on the spot . . . which to follow . . . “man”, “church”, “congregation” . . . OR the mighty, holy Lord, God the Father, Who dwells within . . . Who would be ONE with the seeker and show the seeker all Truth and that Kingdom which exists, of another type, beyond the mundane senses of the animal/man . . . and the fetid teachings designed just to control, conscript, divert . . . .
Trust God. Sear the lying beast within, and find that Speaker Who is Holy, True, Divine . . . being courageous, strong, steadfast on the Path to Perfection, which is the destiny of all He Calls His Own . . . . . . .
Told to me by Him, I dare say,
brother thomas
Much Afraid,
Thanks!
On April 4th, 2009 11:01 pm @ spiritualtyranny.com
http://spiritualtyranny.com/to.....mment-3090
You Graciously Prayed this prayer:
“O Lord, open the eyes and hearts of your sons and daughters wherever they be found, in SGM or in the church universal, may we only ever bow our knee to you King Jesus. ”
“Lord Jesus have mercy on all the sheep of your pasture wherever they may be. ”
Amen! –Praise U Jesus! ;~)
In a little,
Sopy
(does dat mean I’ze can sleep in ta marra?) >snicker<
Erik–so true. It breaks my heart that my students don’t really consider anyone else as spiritual as them, any other church as good as theirs.
No city wide prayer, fellowship, missions ever involved SGM.
What a loss….for SGM folks.
We gotta live together through eternity, might as well start hanging together now. What are they afraid of catching? Charismatic healing gifts or an independent Baptist’s love for the King James Version or a little Presbyterian Westminster Confession or some SBC Blackaby writing?
Dudes, get over yourselves.
old-timer from PDI — you favorably reference “Brother Thomas.” Maybe I’m misunderstanding him, but he seems to be saying that he’s a Mormon/Hindu now. Are you saying that we should take his criticisms of any Christian denomination seriously, considering that he has seemingly rejected Christianity altogether? Again, maybe I’m misunderstanding where he’s coming from, and he’s no longer either Hindu or Mormon …
Update from Chesapeake:
Another family meeting tonight in Chesapeake. Trevor is out. Brett is no longer involved in family life but is still a pastor. Keith leaves soon for the Richmond church. Lots of parties in the next couple of weeks.
Oh my! Thanks for the update, Fred! I will have to ask a few I still keep up with what is going on!!!!!! WOW!
Fred — what do you mean by “lots of parties”? Are you happy to see a church go through difficult times with pastoral transitions? You’re rejoicing at the upheaval these families are experiencing because you feel they’ve finally got what’s been coming to them?
Coming soon: SGMRefugeRefuge.com — a place for those who’ve grown tired of fostering bitterness, who are tired of nurturing their hurts and who are ready to graciously move on alongside other sinners.
Appreciate,
Someone tried your coming soon idea. It was an underwhelming success.
The SGM PR Machine is very high profile online, telling a highly edited, happy-happy version of the SGM story. There are already countless member blogs or facebook accounts telling the happy-happy SGM story.
Here’s a newsflash-I want people to be free from bitterness, probably more than you do.
Newsflash #2-bitter people are not helped by being told they’re bitter.
Considering the trainwreck in Chesapeake, I’d be happy to see the clueless “leaders” involved forced to work in the real world like the rest of us.
You know, like Paul did.
Parties???
The Quizzler was interested in this comment as well……..although not being invited to many parties in the past, Quizzler was excited about the prospects………. until visiting the calendar on the SGC Chesapeake Website and finding that there are indeed several parties this month down at that church………… a good-by party for the Turners (wasn’t he the Creative Director who is coming to the PC?) ……………….and a good-by party for the Breaults (who will also probably receive a welcome party in Richmond). And finally, there will probably be a party when the new Sr. pastor is installed.
Seems the folks at SGCC aren’t letting the current “difficult times with pastoral transitions” get in the way of celebrating and honoring those that helped get them into this situation in the first place.
………….parties, yes………………..gloating by those at the Refuge, no
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
I wonder who is cleaning house in Chesapeake: CJ, Gene…or Eric? Hmm…..
AppreciateSGM,
That was mean-spirited assumption on your last post. Ho-hum, you just don’t get it. Good luck with that blog you mentioned. Sincerely, Canary
AppreciateSGM said on August 10th, 2009 at 11:18 am: “Fred — what do you mean by “lots of parties”? Are you happy to see a church go through difficult times with pastoral transitions? You’re rejoicing at the upheaval these families are experiencing because you feel they’ve finally got what’s been coming to them?Coming soon: SGMRefugeRefuge.com — a place for those who’ve grown tired of fostering bitterness, who are tired of nurturing their hurts and who are ready to graciously move on alongside other sinners.”
To answer your question, Appreciate SGM: “lots of parties at SGM Chesapeake” was a statement based on the current SGCC’s calendar which anyone can find online regarding the going away parties for those leaving, specifically KB,, AT, maybe TH. To further answer your question: Fred’s previous post was an update on Chesapeake. It was not a treatise on my feelings or emotions over what has happened. It in no way even indicated at all what I think about what has happened. The party phrase was specifically related to SGC Chesapeake’s parties.
Now that you have opened the door let me take this opportunity to tell you what I think about the goings on in Chesapeake. I am grieved and saddened for these families. I am grieved and saddened for these pastors, these men of SGC. I am grieved and saddened for all those still in SGCC. Let me tell you why. These pastors and their families as well as those people still in are held in bondage to a system of corruption, deception, lies and abuse. They are pawns being used by those above them to carry out the desires and whims of CJ et al. We all know that if they do not carry out the party line, they are tossed aside. Look how many former pastors have been tossed out throughout SGM for various reasons, usually that they no longer have the giftings for……. There is no room for any other opinions except for those held by CJ and now Jeff Purswell. There is no room for someone to hear from the Holy Spirit for themselves.
Am I rejoicing? No way. Am I celebrating? Not at all. Am I partying? Nope! Am I thankful? Absolutely. Thankful that God is moving and cleaning up His house! He promises a spotless bride! If CJ and his leaders and pastors do not repent, sadly there is more to come.
I am so happy I have a new Church home in Chesapeake! I AM rejoicing, celebrating, singing, dancing, partying AND thankful that the Holy Spirit prompted me long before I knew “anything” was going on. About 8 months ahead of time! I tried to tell a few of you but you didn’t hear me! I just hung in there to attend the “family meeting” last January. Now you too have left! I pray that the blinders would be lifted and the scales removed!!! In time.
Live Wire said……
“I wonder who is cleaning house in Chesapeake: CJ, Gene…or Eric? Hmm…..”
Quiz time……….
Who is “cleaning house” down in Chesapeake?
A) CJ
B) Gene
C) Eric
D) God
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
True that, Quizzler,…true that…. As in the Brent D case, it is sobering, very sobering –to see consequences of destructive LEADERSHIP actions CAUSE “pastoral transitions and families experiencing upheavals” as ‘AppreciateSGM’ states.
Please refer back to where it all began in Chesapeake, dear ASGM,— the “3 Couples” came forth on behalf of women who were being perversely counseled by BC and KB to stay with abusive husbands etc etc. And three of the men who accompanied Esther/Sylvia in meetings with KB and BC were SO astonished and appalled at the derrogatory, threatening manner of BC and KB behind closed doors they began to seek the Lord to expose the darkness….There is choice, ASGM, to take courage to begin to see and hear the cry of the oppressed– when those in authority are the oppressors……To ask questions of the advocates of the oppressed, instead of only hearing the oppressors side.
Refuge is a place for those who have been silenced,wounded,mauled,discarded, and maligned by SGM (some) pastors, to speak the truth of their experience and sound an alarm to our Brethren that there is a smoldering smoke of deception that will choke the life out of hearing and being led by Holy Spirit. That is not bitterness—that is love—for we would that our Brethren be set free and SGM leadership genuinely repent before God and man……..This is a stream of cleansing in becoming the unblemished Bride of Christ. The Bride of Christ—not the bride of sgm.
So does anyone know if the large exodus of people actually happened at Chesapeake. I recall someone predicting that in June after the school season was over, they thought additional families were going to leave SGM Chesapeake. Any news on if that do or didn’t happen.
Appreciate SGM
I would hope as Christians that if/when judgment happens to SGM, that we have the attitude Samuel had after he rebuked Saul and told Saul about losing his kingdom. Scripture says that Samuel mourned for Saul and God finally asked him how long he would be mourning over Saul. God then told Samuel to go and anoint David as the new king over Israel.
Hopefully if judgment happens I and others commenting here will have an attitude similar to Samuel. Grieving and mourning over how sin and arrogance brought down a group from what it could have been for the kingdom of God.
Yes Bucky, I too am rejoicing that I am out and happy, happy, happy. I am happy for myself and others who have left and I am soooo thankful to God that He opened my eyes to the truth – the sad truth of lies, deception, abuse and wrong doctrine. However, He has also opened my eyes and my heart to experience His amazing love in new ways and in the knowledge that I am a saint because of the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ.
I am not rejoicing over the bondage that these pastors are in and the fact that they have fallen into the trap of the enemy. I am also not rejoicing that so many are still being deceived and led astray. There are so many wonderful people in these churches. People who really love Jesus and came to SGC because they believed that it was the real deal. They came because they believed that the church was filled with leaders, pastors and others who were living the real Christian life. They are so deceived and my heart grieves for them. They have been led astray and are in captivity. I pray for their deliverance and the deliverance of the entire movement. However, I am moving forward in the freedom and abundant life that Jesus promises to each of us. I am moving forward unencumbered and free. Free to receive from my loving Father, Son and Holy Spirit and free to use the gifts that He has given me to further His kingdom on this earth.
AppreciateSGM, I am praying for you as well. If you are a pastor’s wife, I appeal to you. Get your husband out before it is too late. Get him out for the health of his relationship with God, for your marriage and for your children. Look at the history and patterns of treatment and behavior towards pastors. Why would your husband be treated any differently? He will not be. At some point, he too will be tossed aside, if he hasn’t been already. My heart goes out to you with love and compassion.
Steve240,
Based on the information provided at the family meeting at SGCC this past Sunday, attendance is down around 150 compared to last year (I didn’t write down the actual figures given but this is what I remember the difference being close to).
Steve 240 asked,
“So does anyone know if the large exodus of people actually happened at Chesapeake. I recall someone predicting that in June after the school season was over, they thought additional families were going to leave SGM Chesapeake. Any news on if that do or didn’t happen.”
The Answer: Yes! Many families have continued to exit Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake since the end of the school year. Many of these were homeschooling families involved in the church’s Enrichment Program. The fruit of this can be found on the website: Next Year’s Homeschool Enrichment Program only lists 4 or 5 teachers for all the classses, with three teachers teaching most of them. The numbers enrolled in these classes reflect the diminishing numbers in the church.
FYI: Each week more families have been leaving and showing up at another area church, so it is readily evident that many are still leaving and finding great comfort relationally in the families who have left before them.
To AppreciateSGM: I would be very careful at developing a root of bitterness toward all of those who have endured years (and even decades) of deception, lies and abuse at the hands of Sovereign Grace pastors. You appear not to know the pain and sufferning many have harbored and I would encourage you to be more sympathetic to those who have been abused, rather than the abusers. That being said, I totally concur with Fred that for your own spiritual health, it would be prudent to examine what is happening around you and be very careful with fully understanding what really is occurring within the leadership realm of Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake (and other SGM team related churches).
As for the parties, it is very evident from the Calendar on the Website, that this month is all about honoring men. Three parties are slated for the month of August: Two going away parties and one induction party. It is shameful that the entire month of August , at Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake, is dedicated to idolizing men, with absolutely no mention of Christ!
How can anyone defend that?
Fred et al.,
No, I’m not a pastor’s wife. I was a member of the SG church in Chesapeake for a dozen years until my wife and I moved out west. We love Sovereign Grace, and are better as individuals and as a couple because of the preaching and pastoral care that we received. But we haven’t been members of a SG church in about five years.
Of course church members can be hurt in any church, of any denomination, by any church leader or fellow member. Of course this has happened in SG-affiliated churches — the pastors are all sinners, so naturally they sin against others.
Specifically, it seems that some very bad counsel was given at the SG church in Chesapeake, and that some of the pastors refused to humble themselves when confronted. And that is shameful. It seems that this situation is being corrected, which is great! The thing is, since all pastors are sinners, something similar is bound to happen again somewhere within SGM-affiliated churches.
That said, this phenomenon is not peculiar to SG churches. None of us will find a “perfect” church or denomination. I had spent some time reading many of the discussions here and on the other hate-SGM site, and found a lot of griping and grumbling, vague complaints that spread to those who had never attended an SGM church and who consequently came to despise SGM churches. So I saw the **spread** of grumbling, rather than **healing** or **reconciliation.**
May all of you who’ve been hurt by a fellow sinner receive healing.
AppreciateSGM – I take offense to you calling these sites “hate” sites. There are sites for healing those who have been damaged by SGM – these are REAL people, Christians who have been damaged. Some of these folks have been damaged deeply spiritually and emotionally. These are not “hate” sites – these are places of healing.
If I had a dollar for everytime an sgm defender said “well, not every church is perfect”, I would be a rich man! SGM’s problems are at the very core of their belief system – much like the cults and NRM’s (new religious movement).
What is your purpose here? All you are doing is proving the issues with sgm.
Freedom — what is my purpose here? To provide balance, to defend those who are being wrongfully maligned, to provide another perspective from someone who is better off for having spent 12 years as a member of a SGM church.
I’m “proving the issues with SGM” by even being on this site? I don’t understand that.
Regarding my use of the term “hate-SGM site,” I think that’s an accurate description. The dictionary definition of “hate” is: “to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward.” That describes a lot of what I read here.
Appreciate SGM said:
“Specifically, it seems that some very bad counsel was given at the SG church in Chesapeake, and that some of the pastors refused to humble themselves when confronted. And that is shameful. It seems that this situation is being corrected, which is great! The thing is, since all pastors are sinners, something similar is bound to happen again somewhere within SGM-affiliated churches.”
I really don’t know how you can say that. Has Gene Emerson ever publicly apologized for his calling these 3 couples “enemies” when they brought in necessary correction. I am sure this is one of many examples of where SGM Chesapeake might change but never admit their past mistakes. Of course that seems to be the typical method of operation with SGM: never admit things that have been done wrong.
I always ask, why is it that these SGM Leaders who always say they are imperfect won’t admit their imperfections.
Maybe if the SGM Leadership including Gene Emerson did some real soul searching and publicly admitted what they did wrong there wouldn’t be this exodus of a large number of people from SGM Chesapeake.
Again, I don’t know how you can say things are being “corrected.”
Appreciates SGM,
If your spouse/child/yourself were dying of cancer and someone knew the Dr. in the clinic/group you were going to, was /is incompetent and had many malpractice suits against him, wouldn’t you want to know?
Even more so, if that incompetency killed your spouse/child, wouldn’t you want to warn others not to use that Dr.
NOTICE, I said DR. I did not say that your complaint would be about all at the clinic, but one Dr. in particular. Well, SGM is that clinic, and people are speaking out about the crippling/deadly care they have received from various “physicians”. Warning others about those “DRs”. Are they being maligned? Not if what is being said is true…who are we to judge that it is not? The actions being taken recently, to me, most certainly add validity to much of what is written here. Should ALL of SGM be implied in the accounts here…No I do not believe that, but I will not reject the accounts knowing personally that truth is being spoken here about many of them.
I am not against SGM….am a member and am happy. We have received tremendous personal ministry from our church…constantly pointing us to JESUS; HIS joy, love and freedom. However, I am not so callous/blind/shallow to not recognize that people are hurting: with valid reasons.
Lets pray together for the healing of all involved…not only the patients, but the caregivers also. Isn’t that what HE desires; for us to dwell in unity?
Many times, a wound uncared for, goes deep into the flesh and infection untreated, goes deeper and becomes more damaging the longer it is not addressed. In order to clean it out, one must rip the scab off, probe deep inside the wound, debreed it (WHICH IS EXTREMELY PAINFUL) . Even then, the wound does not heal immediately, but must constantly be cleaned and treated for it to heal from the inside out. Perhaps this is what is happening. SGM’S wound (wound’s) are being cleansed by a loving GOD who wants it to succeed. All the junk has to come out for the flesh to heal. The only way to insure that the wound is not again infected, is for the junk to be seen/revealed/removed.
Please pray for ALL involved, as this is a painful process for each of them……Just as you desire those on these sites to not judge….let us not judge them in their pain….
Mimi,
Well said and explained – your input and example are gracefilled and wise.
Thankyou!!! And we pray on…………………..
AppreciateSGM Stated:
“Specifically, it seems that some very bad counsel was given at the SG church in Chesapeake, and that some of the pastors refused to humble themselves when confronted. And that is shameful. It seems that this situation is being corrected, which is great! The thing is, since all pastors are sinners, something similar is bound to happen again somewhere within SGM-affiliated churches.”
On the contrary, this situation is not being corrected. Correction usually involves restoration and reconciliation. The pastors at SGC have never publically renounced their slandering and maligning of the “3 couples” who exposed so much of what was going on “behind-the-scenes” at SGC. They have never apologized for their behavior, calling them “enemies of the church.” These couples were not enemies, but on the contrary, they cared so much for their church that they layed their lives on the line, as well as families and businesses, to confront the deceit and deception of the pastors at Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake toward the body.
Sure, the situation on the surface is being corrected (to stem the tide of families fleeing this church), but underneath, the ugliness will remain, festering, until the truth is spoken from the pulpit.
This is not an “hate-SGM site!” It is a place for individuals who are wounded to voice their pain. I’m sure that makes some people uncomfortable, but that is because it is not the norm within Sovereign Grace Churches. The norm is to keep quiet! (Which has been a catalyst for what has been occurring in the SGM team related churches).
Appreciate,
I can only speak for myself, but as the founder and owner of the site I’m happy to tell you that this has always been a Pro-SGM site.
Someone loves the people (and the pastors he knows) so much that he chose to tell them the truth. That would be me.
This site has to some degree had an effect on the way some pastors in SGM do business. Good for the shepherds, good for the sheep.
Guess what I get out of the whole deal…
-nada
If someone is being wrongfully maligned here, pick up your phone and call me.
Well said, Jim. Very well said. Shoot, if we were not pro SGMers, why would we bother bringing the truth to light? We care about the sheep who are being so controlled in SGM, and we care about the pastors who are deceived, shanked, and so on. You are getting nothing out of running this blog. Neither are those of us who post, except maybe the joy of seeing one more saint set free, one more bad authority figure forced to step down.
Appreciate SGM,
Nobody who posts on this site is really interested in another perspective. I’ve tried in the past and got the same kind of response you’ve gotten. I think most of these folks are well-intentioned, but they are convinced that SG Chesapeake (along with the rest of SGM) is corrupt to the core. Neither you nor I have any hope of convincing them otherwise.
In fact, what I’ve discovered is that the more you try, the more fodder you provide them (I expect this post will do the same). I pop in every so often to see what crazy version of reality gets posted here, but I’ve quit trying to make any difference. Be my guest, but I’d recommend you leave it alone too.
The truth is, I believe in some indirect ways God has used this blog to help bringing some needed change to SGC (and, I suppose, SGM). Lots of things that the folks here and the three couples brought to the pastors’ attention has been taken seriously and is resulting in obvious change.
But many (not all) here aren’t really interested in hearing about positive change. The fact that posters here deny the change and assume ugly motives (“to stem the tide of families fleeing this church”) reveals a lot, doesn’t it?
Since you’re not around anymore, take it from me, SGC has gone through a tough but needed trial these past few months, but I can’t remember the last time I’ve been so excited to be part of what’s happening here. I know all our pastors and their families very well. I’ve been “behind the scenes.” They have sinned many times and made poor decisions and have inadvertently hurt people, but they are nothing more than flawed men doing the best they can to serve God and his people. There’s no “ugliness…festering” behind the scenes (in fact, far from “slandering and maligning” the three couples, our pastors have done nothing but commend, thank, and express love for them–both publicly and privately. Gene E. was responsible for one unnecessary comment (which came in the midst of more expressions of love and gratitude for them)). I do wish he’d recanted, but it’s hardly the horrific evil some here would have you believe.
Anyway, I’m not re-entering the fray. I’m truly sorry for those who have been hurt by SGM leaders. And I’m also sorry for those who somehow see slander, uncharitable judgment, false accusation, and cynicism as a means of healing. Maligning is a bad thing unless it’s against an SGM leader, I guess.
Oh, Appreciate, one more thing. It’s nonsense that our pastors “refused to humble themselves when confronted.” They publicly confessed their sins and errors–in great detail and at great length–to the one whom they offended in a public forum.
Yawp-
The public confession came after the public attempt to destroy reputations.
Gene said what he said. There was a concerted effort to attack the three couples. You know this.
“Enemies of the church”.
Since you’re so close to those involved, why don’t you call Gene and ask him why he never humbled himself and admitted what a asinine statement that was.
What if I created a post that 100k people would read stating that CJ was the enemy of the church? My phone would ring within 24 hours. I would recant, as I have done many times here.
Why is it ok that your apostle is above this?
BTW, yawp-I know who you are. You can call me as well, to set the record straight.
I won’t “out” you.
Jim,
I know I’m a sucker for falling back into this, but I’ll take the bait one more time.
I absolutely deny that there was any attempt to “destroy reputations.” Never happened. Was never intended. One more example of how good men have been defamed here. Regardless, the particular “public confession” I was referring to was to Sylvia/Esther, which came in response to her written letter of complaint.
I also deny any “concerted effort to attack” the three couples. It was just the opposite. Gene (not any of our pastors) made one regrettable comment about one aspect of what they did. I wish he hadn’t said it. I wish he had apologized for it, and I will ask him about it. But how you arrive at the conclusion that the SGC staff intended to damage reputations based on a single dumb statement by Gene is evidence that you will believe what you want to believe.
And what’s with the “you know this” statement? Are you accusing me of lying or being disingenuous? Not very gracious. I’m telling you the truth and I have witnessed it first-hand. Like you, I don’t derive any benefit from posting here. There’s nothing in it for me but to protect people I care about from false accusations.
Your hypothetical about C.J. is a little curious since this blog has already said far worse about him than that he is an “enemy of the church.” And I’ve been clear–I’d like Gene to apologize, but the uproar over that comment here is way out of proportion and ironic given the freedom people have here to smear SGC leaders.
Hey BY, welcome back. You know, I too hope for reform and repentance within SGM. There have been a few glimmers here and there that have kept that hope alive. However, there have been newly emerging stories of … well, more of the same, to be blunt, as well. So, for my own wellbeing, I now keep my hope focused on the Lord and His unwavering commitment to conform each of us to His image.
I guess it’s difficult for those of us who have been terribly wounded by the arrogance and errors of these men to jump right on the “change has come” bandwagon. We have this annoying handicap of not being able to see into a man’s heart. Plus, for many of us, change did NOT come in the manner in which it really should have. For years, decades even, good folks have been bringing these issues to the attention of the SGM/PDI leadership, following all the prescribed Matthew 18 steps as we were taught. And, as a result, instead of change coming, good folks got the crap beat out of them. (Sorry Jim, there goes my potty mouth again!) Also, each of us has personally experienced SGM’s very stringent PR machine, where in many situations, the public vetting of private meetings and problems has not accurately reflected the truth. Many of us have felt this is a self-preservation tactic on their part. Some of us, though we ourselves are out of SGM, still have family members committed to there. This brings a variety of problems from awkwardness in the relationship to completely broken relationships. Oftentimes we feel we are riff raff to them, folks to be shunned or avoided, folks to protect their children from.
So, perhaps you can see our dilemna. We love the Lord and know that He is working, within us and within SGM. We also know, from firsthand experience and from corresponding on the blogs, the long-standing error and abuse that has gone on within this organization across the country. In light of all this, how can we trust that true change is coming to SGM? How can we let our guard down, when we went to them so openheartedly in the past and were terribly wounded? How can we believe there is real heart change and real understanding of the errors at the center of all this when nothing was ever done before, when we went privately to our offenders? How can we not question, at least a little, if this change is coming only because of the blogs and the fact that the precious SGM name is being tarnished here? How can we not wonder if this is not just another self-preservation act? I think a little healthy skepticism is in order here. If indeed, as we all hope, God is at work here and now, bringing down the strongholds that have long been a problem in SGM, it will become evident to us all in the months and years ahead, and I assure you, we will all rejoice together.
Though you have not felt the pain we have at the hands of SGM leadership, surely you can understand our caution. Plus I’m afraid you have that same annoying handicap of not being able to look into our hearts. When I write here, especially in response to folks like you and Appreciate, it is my desire to let you see a little bit into my heart - if you will look. Oh, if only a SGM pastor or leader would come here and do the same – share openheartedly the changes God is bringing in his heart. It would go a long way toward healing within the Body of Christ represented here.
Yawp,
I am absolutely not accusing you of lying. I’m thinking that time and circumstances can cause us to forget the facts.
Here’s what happened, all in one day. At around 6 PM, an invitation only family meeting is held, with Gene presiding. The topic? The three couples. As the meeting was getting started, the financial team sends and email blast to the entire membership. The topic? The three couples.
After the meeting, at 11 Pm or Midnight-I forget which-Keith sends an email blast to the entire membership. The topic? The three couples.
Coincidence?
From what I recall reading the 3 couples that brought up all of these concerns at SG Chesapeake left the church. One would think that if true repentance on leadership happened, these couples would still be around.
The fact that Gene Emerson didn’t repent of what he said, with him being an “apostle” regional leader, tells a whole lot. If the regional leader couldn’t bring himself to publicly apologize to the couple then what makes one think the other leaders have truly done the same and truly changed their attitude about them.
Steve240 Well said! BY says it like it is no big issue: “Gene (not any of our pastors) made one regrettable comment about one aspect of what they did. I wish he hadn’t said it. I wish he had apologized for it, and I will ask him about it. But how you arrive at the conclusion that the SGC staff intended to damage reputations based on a single dumb statement by Gene is evidence that you will believe what you want to believe. “
When the Apostle publicly renounces a member of his own church body, and humiliates them by attempting to ruin their reputations as a means of running interferenece and never apologizes…it is not a big deal…but a huge deal!
Gene’s comment was made at the church overseen by Keith Breault. Vicariously, Kieth also holds responsibility for it. It was his church and he allowed the Apostle to enter God’s doors and make a malicious comment directed toward his sheep. Why did he not speak up?
Barbaric Yawp — wondering—did you ever sit down with Sylvia/Esther and the “3 Couples” and hear what they experienced with the pastors and all that was said to them behind closed doors?????????????????? And, I wonder, what EACH of them would relate to you in regards to your statement that the pastors have gone to each of them privately to commend them??? What was the spoken interraction???? As you would be desiring truth above all else (?) surely you have taken these steps to seek out Sylvia and each of the three couples since you also know all of them (some for many years).??????????????? And of course you would ask the Lord for discernment as your whole heart would seek out truth and not a biased perspective. ????
Waters — You’ve officially used up your quota of question marks for this thread. ;-)
BY,
Maybe you can clear some things up that remain unanswered. Why were the 3 couples not invited to the meeting in Dec. when Gene spoke this one wrong thing that you mentioned? Do you believe that this meeting was biblical and right? Also, what did Gene speak about the 3 couples? Do you believe that Gene’s statement was the only thing that happened at that meeting that was wrong?
Thanks.
By, More questions, if you please. Gene led a prayer for the 3 couples to come to repentance. Are you aware that no one had even told them that they had sinned – in any way?
Thanks for letting me know,ASGM—oy, there could be more ???????
Waters
The Quizzler has credited to your account a lifetime supply of question marks.
If only more people would question things and not just blindly accept what is fed to them, situations such as the one at the Chesapeake church may have never developed.
Here’s a little exercise for everyone still in that infamous Chesapeake church ……..
Go to your favorite pastor and ask him if he knows how much you give on an annual basis. After he says “I don’t know” then ask him how they came up with the giving percentages announced at the family meeting on Sunday. Seems it was something like 53% tithe and 18% give nothing at all.
This deserves several ??????????????????????
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
The Quizzler — doesn’t seem like much of a quandary. It’s my understanding that only the finance people (is Bill Orth still there?) know the financial details. I think that’s fairly common among churches of all denominations, no?
When I was a member, Bill would give a summary of the financial situation during the occasional State-Of-The-Church meetings.
?
AppreciateSGM
In order to know if someone is tithing that person’s salary must be known. Think they know that?
How would they know if someone wasn’t giving at all? That person may be giving in cash?
I can play this game all day long………………
Anyone care to post the latest financial statement from Chesapeake?????????
N.S.L.B.
N.P.L.B.
N.$.L.B.
Sorry, The Quizzler. I’m not as suspicious as you are. I’d interpret “53% tithe and 18% give nothing at all” to mean:
“53% of our members have pledged to tithe, and are meeting their pledge. Another 29% are giving something. And our records show that 18% do not give anything.”
When I was there, I seem to remember being given forms where we could identify whether or not we’d be tithing, and how much we’d be contributing each month. That helped the Financial people better plan their budget. Though such an approach may not be “normal,” I don’t see anything immoral about such an approach to church finances. Seems like it’d be helpful for a church to be able to estimate their “income,” so that they might better plan their expenses.
BY…
Oh my…How did it happen that all the “facts” stated above by the responders to your posts were gained by folks not present? Not at the meeting or not in the church office when emails were sent. Does the word “fact” have a new definition?
What a strange, strange, strange and mesmerizing draw this blog has…
APPRECIATE SGM You stated:
“When I was there, I seem to remember being given forms where we could identify whether or not we’d be tithing, and how much we’d be contributing each month. That helped the Financial people better plan their budget. Though such an approach may not be “normal,” I don’t see anything immoral about such an approach to church finances. Seems like it’d be helpful for a church to be able to estimate their “income,” so that they might better plan their expenses.”
When did this occur at Sovereign Grace Church Chesapeake? How long ago were you a member? I have been there for “many” years before the Exodus and never did this occur. Again, this clearly did not happen!
P.S. Bill Orth was released from his duties at Sovereign Grace Church Ches. months ago. Curiously: Currently, the pastors now handle the $ and the accounting!
Why? YOU DO THE MATH!
AppreciateSGM
You said………….”I’d interpret “53% tithe and 18% give nothing at all” to mean:
“53% of our members have pledged to tithe, and are meeting their pledge. Another 29% are giving something. And our records show that 18% do not give anything.”
Thanks for your interpretation of what was said from your remote location out west ……………….. Maybe Mr. Orth, if he’s still employed by the church, could shed some light on the process.
N.$.L.B.
McD:
FYI: A transcripts of the meeting referenced (where the 3 couples were slandered) was made (I’m sure unbeknownst to the pastors); I have personally read it. That is how one who was not present knows what occurred!
Its not such a strange, strange and mesmerizing draw after all!
Greener Pastures — I was a member from 1992 through 2005. I do think we had such forms a few times, but cannot confirm that.
The Quizzler — Yes, I was simply giving my interpretation, based on my having been part of that church for a dozen years and knowing some of the people involved (my good friend Eric Hughes, for example).
This is the difference here: I was there for a dozen years, and rubbed shoulders with some of the leaders during my time there. I’ve come to know who they are: Decent people who screw up now and again, but who really want to honor the Lord and serve their congregation. I therefore tend to give them the benefit of THE DOUBT in situations where there’s ambiguity and a reasonable explanation. Some here prefer to distrust all associated with SGM, and never give the benefit of THE DOUBT, and assign bad motives and crafty schemes. And there is doubt and ambiguity, yeah?
McD
Facts?………….seems that Barbaric Yawp (besides being a Walt Whitman wanabe) has firsthand information and was in attandance at one or more of the meetings in question. He even confirmed that the term “enemies of the church” was directed at some people that weren’t even at that particular meeting. Maybe you were there as well.
If you were a member of the Chesapeake church you received the emails from the financial “men of renown” and the sr. pastor. Look at the date and time stamps on the emails. From where do you think the financial “men of renown” got the email address list they used in sending out their message to the entire church membership? Church office? Nuf said.
Here’s another little secret……….go to the sr. pastor’s email and open the attachment (letter). Then click on “properties” and you will see that the file name of his letter reveals the names of none other than the three couples (enemies) in question. Quizzler knows some good lawyers down there that may be interested in pulling the string on this one.
N.S.L.B.
Wow – stay away for a day and the place goes crazy!!!!!
AppreciateSGM – No, this is NOT a hate site. Everyone else has covered that quite well. Give Jim a call if you think this is a hate site. EH has a big heart, it really sucks that he has been brainwashed, he’d make a great pastor and help people if he was outside of the sgm system.
Quizzler – your BY walt whitman comment cracks me up!!!!!!!
BY – welcome back – sorry to hear you and your family are still in bondage to sgm. God through Jesus has given us FREEDOM!!!!!
The kind of control that goes on at sgm is just wrong and very cult/new religious movement-ish. The sheppherd movement has been re-packaged as sgm. Everything from comes from the top down in the sgm system.
If I had another dollar for everytime someone from SGM said they are more excited than ever about the changes at sgm x church, I would be twice as rich (along with the “no church is perfect” comment) – everytime something changes at sgm, the faithful on the top tier are always “most excited I have ever been” – but, you don’t get to be a top tier person/family unless you think sgm is the “greatest thing since sliced bread”
It’s easy to defend when you are a top tier family in sgm.
All I see is sgm up to it’s same old tricks, they just re-package it or say it in a new, “nicer” way. There is no true reform! If there was, cj would be the first to step down, follwed by shank, gene and the rest of the “apostolic” team. For sgm to reform and change, it wouldn’t be sgm anymore. The only “change” that has come is the way sgm’s system is presented.
When companies have the unions come knocking and try to unionize a site, the first thing the company (ceo/executive team) does is come in and say “we hear you, we will change the management team, we will put this and that in place” Do they change the system they use to work? No, just the people in charge – exactly what SGM is doing- there is no real change. Replace cj with ceo and executive team with gene/”apostle” and there you go – see the point?
The Quizzler — you have “men of renown” in quotes. Why is that? I sincerely don’t know.
In Microsoft Outlook, I’m able to send e-mails to “groups.” I use but one “name” in the “To” field, and it’s sent to everyone in that group. Perhaps the SGC-Chesapeake people simply sent the e-mail to a “group,” which consisted of the church membership. Nothing sinister.
What is the “file name” of the sr. pastor’s e-mail attachment? Are you able to let us know, specifically?
And if you want to bring a lawsuit against someone, please go ahead and go for it, knowing that it’s a fairly unbiblical route. Or just stop threatening it.
Seriously, brother, your bitterness is coming through loud and clear in pretty much everything you write. You may say you’re not bitter, but your comments are saturated with cynicism and antagonism. To draw from my time at SGC in Chesapeake, your words are betraying what’s going on in your heart. Ultimately, you are responsible to the Lord for your heart, not for the hearts of the SGM leadership.
Well, after leaving Sovereign Grace Ministries over a year ago, sometimes I think I am doing well….Well…yesterday out of no where, I was attacked by some well meaning Christian, with the bitterness in my heart. Like a dog crapping in the wrong place, they put my nose in the crap, and said smell this…YOU MAY NOT FEEL THIS WAY. IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT THE LEADERSHIP TEAM DID TO YOU AT SOVEREIGN GRACE MINISTRIES, YOU MAY NOT FEEL THIS WAY. GOD IS GONNA GET YOU. BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU….
Bitterness is stating it lightly. I tried to take my life after a mix of a life of serious abuse and then what happened to me at Sovereign Grace Ministries. I personally am getting the help I need to sort through these grevious issues, and if their was any Maligning done it was by the SR Pastor and his leadership team.
I know not of the names and the faces of any person, pastor, or otherwise at Chesapeake, but OH that situation is so closely the same here. What took place behind closed doors nobody knows. The apology given was political and mostly to show the congreation …SEE WHAT HUMBLE MEN WE ARE…
Quizzler…I have a Quiz for you…
If the SR Pastor and His wife are doing the church books with out accountability…is it ok to…
A. Ask the high tithers to instead of give your tithe, to give to the building fund.
B. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul
C. Ask the church to give just a little more, while you give none and remodel your house.
D. None of the above is having very much integrity, lets call the ELDERS together.
Barbaric Yawp, since I am still alive…I am praying for YOU..
AppreciateSGM
Why do you assume that Quizzler is a brother and not a sister?
N.S.L.B.
Charlie,
We all get weary of the bitterness accusation, but it is particularly hurtful (and the word hurtful does not even begin to cover it) when the wounds are still so recent. I’m sorry. So glad to hear you are getting help. You are in my prayers this day.
I wonder why it is that the first knee-jerk reaction of SGM folk is very often to look for sin in the wounded person and bring correction? Why is it they often think they can waltz into conversations and level their sin charges so easily? Why isn’t there more compassion… or care… or GRACE?
Hey Quizzler, you got me making lists of questions too!
Appreciate SGM said to The Quizzler, “Seriously, brother, your bitterness is coming through loud and clear in pretty much everything you write. You may say you’re not bitter, but your comments are saturated with cynicism and antagonism. To draw from my time at SGC in Chesapeake, your words are betraying what’s going on in your heart. Ultimately, you are responsible to the Lord for your heart, not for the hearts of the SGM leadership.”
It seems that oh so very often, SGMer’s push their default button and slip right back into the ways of their pastors and brethren. You have been trained so well to identify and point out other’s sins. This is such a common occurrence in SGM and one that is encouraged by the pastors. It is even in the covenant statement in SGCC – you will identify and confront your brethren’s sin. It is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict sin in the hearts of the children of God and bring them to repentance. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit needs your help in this matter ASGM? Sorry pal, but you are way off here! However, I thank you for reminding me of the wrong doctrine and application of the Gospel that is prevalent within SGM.
Folks, I am genuinely sorry that many of you have been wounded by your experiences in SGM. I have been too. I expect many of you will be skeptical about this, but be that as it may. I chose to stick it out and believe my pain was caused inadvertently by error-prone men with good hearts and good intentions. The longer I’ve hung in there, the more convinced I am that that’s the case. I wish some things had changed long ago, but I could give a long list of evidence that SGC is moving in the right direction.
I’m NOT saying that it was wrong for any of you to leave and I’m not dismissing the injuries you’ve received. Charlie, what little I know of your story is heart-rending.
The world is full of well-meaning Christians (SGM pastors including, but they are not alone). “Bitterness” can be used as a club–I’ve seen that. But that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying bitterness sucks. I’m saying bitterness is a foothold for the enemy. I’m saying there’s a way out of bitterness and it’s not through this blog.
Run from SGM and never look back if that’s what it takes. Fine. Go get good, nourishing counseling from a pastor or counselor. Give yourself to the work of the kingdom somewhere and be reminded of Christ’s unmerited, unflagging love for you. This is out of compassion for those who are bitter (not anyone else): freedom from bitterness is not likely to come from venting your anger on a public forum with others who share your frustrations. If you can read just the last couple dozen posts here and call it “healing,” we’ve got really different definitions of that word.
Next, it would take a doctoral dissertation to argue with the dozens that pile on every time I post. And as I’ve come to realize, it won’t do any good. I’ll just say that the version of events that is presented here is just as twisted and spun as you suspect the so-called SGM PR-machine of doing. It’s just spun in a very cynical, ugly way.
If I had time to talk with any of you one-on-one we’d find LOTS we’d agree on regarding the problems with SGC over the years. Where we’d disagree would be an important starting place–the motives and intentions of our pastors.
I’ll continue praying for both your genuine healing and for the continued growth of my church.
God bless
P.S. I don’t get the humor in the “Walt Whitman wanabe” comment. It’s insulting in a childish kind of way. I’m pretty sure I’ve kept my posts free of personal insults.
P.P.S. Please stop praying that my family and I be “set free from bondage.” I know you don’t intend it this way, but it comes across as arrogant and condescending.
Oh, one last thing, Fred (and anyone else, really), I’d be happy to answer your questions via e-mail. It’s just too exhausting and ultimately pointless to try to do that here. If you really want to know what I think, you can e-mail me at barbaricyawp43@gmail.com. Or, since you know who I am, give me a call. I’ll treat you to Starbucks, or buy you a beer if you prefer.
Actually BY, it would not be pointless to answer the questions here but would be helpful. There are many here who would appreciate answers and you seem to have them through your inside connections.
I am guessing that you won’t respond to me since it seems your last post was indicating that it was indeed the last. That’s too bad because I think you are “part of the solution”. Nothing to hide, right?
One last point (hope you are still reading). Very possibly, you know first hand the tactics and wrongdoings of SGM and yet you defend them so vigorously. Have you ever considered that those here are right and SGM is off?
BY
……”The spotted hawk swoops by and accuses me, he complains of my gab and my loitering. I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable, I sound my barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world.”
-Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
N.S.L.B.
BY,
We agree on so many points. We obviously would view the Chesapeake situation in a different way, which is why I’ve asked you to call me. I would sincerely love to hear the other side of the story.
I echo your comment re bitterness. I’ve told many people that they should not read this blog, and for the record, I’ll state publicly that those who are struggling with the purgatory of bitterness would most likely be well served to stay away from the blogs.
Can someone cite the exact message where Gene Emerson called the three couples “enemies” of the church. Is this on an audio file that I could get?
Steve
Steve,
I think that barbaric yawp has admitted that Gene made this statement.
BY, please correct me if I’m wrong.
Steve240,
I don’t know if SGCC made a recording of the meeting where Gene made the statement – it wasn’t stated in a scheduled sermon. However, since the meeting was a by invitation only family meeting, it would not be made available for public distribution anyway since family meetings are deemed private. Members would/should be able to at least listen to it at the church office but I doubt that copies would be allowed.
With that said, posters on this blog who appear to have been at the meeting (BY being one), have not denied that Gene made the statement. They have, IMHO, instead made it painfully clear that the statment was made.
BY — I appreciate your perspective. I think you are facilitating healing among people who have truly been hurt.
B Y, Perhaps if you had taken the steps I asked you about you would have had a more true picture of the events that led up to the 3 Couples confrontation with the pastors.
ASGM: Did you know that Sylvia/Esther went through 10 months of meetings with pastors, appeal after appeal for help, appeals to apostolic leaders Gene Emerson, Dave HArvey, Steve Shank?? And then BC issued their ‘final answer’ that she would receive church discipline if she went through with separating from her husband??
(And we know this is a Godly woman who endured much for 31 years …then the Lord spoke to her that she must separate to protect herself and her children). Because of her known,proven meek and gentle spirit and Christlike life,(you are a friend of EH—ask him what he has stated about her Godly character) the 3 men of the 3couples came to be her advocates. You know these 3 men. They have all been in the church for 10 to 20 years. Caregroup leaders, not given to bullying or pride. When they went to meetings with Sylvia they were STUNNED AND APPALLED in the manner of which KB and BC spoke to her and threatened and bullied her. They couldn’t believe what they were hearing—and it is THIS unveiling that caused these 3 men and their wives to pray,seek God…and fight on behalf of Sylvias voice and other women who were also being destructively counseled. For obeying God, they were wrongly represented in a letter written by the Financial Team to the whole church..One of the 3 men was mocked, called an “old man—sit down old man” while he was attempting to represent the issues at hand during a small church meeting. Gene Emerson encouraged the roomful of people at a later meeting that they were all “allies against the 3 couples who have vindictive attitudes.”
None of the above,ASGM is ambiguous (definition: ‘not clear, indefinite,vague’), and so to give the leaders “benefit of the doubt” in this would be ludicrous! Clearly, the upheaval in Chesapeake occured because of the unveiling of heart motives and actions and the destructive counsel to people given by pastors. You say you “rubbed shoulders ” with these pastors and know them to be desiring Gods good for their congregants. I knew them all too—and when they were young and starting out—we saw their hearts of compassion. This is the scarey part——why are they all so robotic and void of compassion now–they will follow the SGM edict when facts and the trail of broken people litter the outskirts of their church. Keith stated that the shifting of pastors in Chesapeake—EH coming in as Sr Pastor and Keith leaving for Richmond — had NOTHING to do with the “recent upheavals here”. Is that the truth??? If so—how terribly sad—how is one to believe the HEART of repentance and change????
I will be watching to see if Jeff Purswell and any others pursue the ‘new doctrine’ Keith drafted to not allow women to separate from their marriage for any reason. This is the bigdog that the 3 Couples stood against and exposed, and Sylvias 78 yer old spiritfilled Christian father appealed and warned them against—for if a woman would ultimately be murdered by an abusive/unstable husband because the pastors had forbid her to separate from him, they would be responsible—by our laws and spiritually before God. Is that not astonishing that we must point that out to men who hold the position of pastor???????????????????????????????????????????
Exodus 22:22–”You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. If you afflict him at all,and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry.” —God heard the cry of a group of women at SGChesapeake and raised up advocates for them, and the advocates were maligned and rallied against. This is the truth and the facts. There is a 9 month papertrail of facts through exchanged email with Esther/Sylvia and one of the 3 couples. Anyone who wants to know facts can read the words of pastors,apostolic leaders and the appealers.
The ‘fruit’ that has been exposed is so the leaders can say yes, this is some wretched destructive fruit. And then—-cry out to God—forget your pastors college checklist and dictation of SG—how about seeking God?????
The events at SGChesapeke mirror the legalism that is rampant and takes on many facets throughout SGM .Your right, B Y, it would take pages of dissertation on that. Bottom line—there was One who spoke angrily, bluntly, and even harshly, to only one GROUP of people on the earth—the legalistic Pharisees. Why??? Because they knew,memorized, prayed scripture 24/7……..and they were “lifeless” because they were not connected to the heart of people—they never “saw’ or “heard” the appeals and issues of everyday people. Which of course is the antithesis of THE Good Shepherd.”
We have a whole ‘nother story from another SG church in another part of the country that is competely parallel to this one—This is why I blog—to raise an alarm of a destructive virus that runs through SG. We love so many that are there and have close ties with many–our heart is broken for our Brethren. And so we pray and expose deeds of darkness to the Light in this forum; and pray Gods people will truly SEE and walk in the Light as our Savior, the Redeemer is in the Light.
Thanks, Quizzler, I’m already familiar with the Whitman passage. I was wondering how selecting that name makes me a “wanabe” and why Freedom found it so amusing it required seven exclamation points. Perhaps you meant nothing derogatory. Either way–forget it.
Jim, thanks for the warm comment. I’m not sure what the benefit might be to speaking to you on the phone, but remind me where I can find your number. I’ll consider it.
Fred, it’s pointless (and tiring) to use a forum like this to present a different perspective on what’s going on at SGC. My experience here proves it beyond question. Few, if any, on this blog have any desire to hear a different perspective. My posts just instigate more invective. Things seem to get pretty dull when you all just talk to one another. I think I prefer it that way.
If anyone is interested in a one-on-one, my inbox is open.
BY-all of my contact info is on the “about” page.
BY-
I do find it curious that you won’t address people’s questions in a public manner…why the deflection?
peace to you-mm
charlie
I am so sorry for the pain you have experienced but I rejoice in the fact that you are free and getting on with your life. Much of what has gone on behind closed doors needs to be exposed. I send you and those still in this church the following verse Eph 5:8-11.
You also had a Quiz for me…………..
“Quizzler…I have a Quiz for you…
If the SR Pastor and His wife are doing the church books with out accountability…is it ok to…
A. Ask the high tithers to instead of give your tithe, to give to the building fund.
B. Borrow from Peter to pay Paul
C. Ask the church to give just a little more, while you give none and remodel your house.
D. None of the above is having very much integrity, lets call the ELDERS together.”
…..Quizzler says
A) No (tithing is between man and God)
B) Maybe (depends on the reason – it is a business after all)
C) No (see A)
D) Yes (unpaid elders elected by the congregation)
…………..lack of true accountability brings forth all sorts of wrongs and is one of the fundamental problems with SGM polity and practice. The church you speak of will, no doubt, suffer greatly – both fiscally and spiritually as a result. Be thankful you have departed.
N.S.L.B.
Gracie, Waters and Fred…………………..
In light of your diligent questions and desire to seek the truth you are now all Honorary Quizzlers.
N.S.L.B.
The Quizzler — you directly imply that Eric and Marie Hughes “are doing the church books with out accountability.” Do have solid and substantiated evidence to support that contention? Or are you being hypothetical, making a judgment based on what you think might be going on?
Sin is occurring at SG church in Chesapeake, just like at every other church in the world. That sin is bad enough, and it may be appropriate to address it. If you’re merely conjecturing, though, that is not helpful.
Indeed, if you are spreading baseless rumors about Eric Hughes and his wife, you are libeling him. And libel is not a game.
Appreciate-
Charlie is a different State. Quizzler was responding to Charlie. Try to keep up. BTW, Appreciate, feel free to call me whatever you like. Please don’t call one of my guests bitter again. Ever.
BY said-
“Few, if any, on this blog have any desire to hear a different perspective”- after I said:
BTW, yawp-I know who you are. You can call me as well, to set the record straight.
And…
BY,
We agree on so many points. We obviously would view the Chesapeake situation in a different way, which is why I’ve asked you to call me. I would sincerely love to hear the other side of the story.
And…
BY, please correct me if I’m wrong.
And…
BY-all of my contact info is on the “about” page.
Unreal…
DUH, Appreciate SGM, where in the world do you get that The Quizzler was talking about Eric and Marie ???? First of all he was answering a question that Charlie asked him. Eric and Marie nor Chesapeake were never even mentioned in the question from Charlie or the answer from The Quizzler. Secondly, Eric is not sr. pastor YET and the question was about a sr. pastor!! Man, get your facts straight before you throw out accusations. What are you really after here Appreciate SGM?
Chesapeake had an accountant who did the books until the last few months. My understanding is that one of the jr. pastors (CM) took over the finances. Maybe there is another SGM that Charlie is talking about. I do not know. Charlie, would you tell us what you are talking about?
To all former pastors of SGM who have been “let go” for lack of gifting:
So many of you “stepped down” and have stayed in SGM churches but I wonder….During the time that you pastored, the leadership of SGM must have believed that you were called by God to pastor. Probably you too believed you were called. How do you reconcile the fact that these same men or others in the movement later determined that you no longer had the gifting to pastor or that you no longer had the grace to pastor? This is so difficult for me to understand. A calling is from God, not man. Why would you allow these men to determine your calling when this is really between you and God? Are you concerned that when you stand before God you might have to make an account for submitting to man over God?
Fred, “ditto” on the DUH. Appreciate: Aren’t you out west as I recall? You have gotten ahead of the timeline. Eric hasn’t been “installed” yet as Sr Pastor.
To all former pastors of SGM who have been “let go” for lack of gifting: I totally agree with Fred. I can totally undertstand the ebb & flow of a congregation, but when a man is called as a Pastor, well if it is really a true calling…….then that is what he is called to be, a Pastor! I don’t think in my lifetime I have ever met a “former” Pastor, “well, I was a Pastor, then I was told I was just not fulfilling my call, so I quit”?? A retired one, maybe, but not a “fired” one????? Strange.
As far as the accounting and the tithing………….as a (former) member of SGC, we all had an account number. That’s how they gave us quarterly statements and year end statements. Do I think Pastors know if you are tithing or not? YES! To think they do not know is like thinking a CEO of a company has no idea how much money comes and goes. Sure Bill Orth was in charge of bookkeeping and do you not think he tells the Pastors? Pa-lease. I know at a Care Group meeting, I felt like my CGL knew who was and wasn’t giving in his group. Remember as a group reading “The Treasure Principle”. Then he asked questions which made me feel like he had some inside info. BYawp might be able to comment on this one……..(what is your view on “lack of gifting”? and “tithing” numbers? Just curious, you know, because you are still there.
I have answers for all the questions and unfounded allegations above, but, Musicman, I’ve tried to answer questions reasonably and thoroughly in the past and the result was not only antagonism, but a bewildering number of rabbit trails that required too much time to keep up with.
As I have said more than once, my perspective is generally NOT welcome and I’m not interested in provoking people.
Jim, when I say few, if any, desire to hear a different perspective, I mean to hear with any degree of grace or openness. Sure, folks want to hear it because it gives them something to shout down and ridicule-the tone of your post above is a pretty good example. And by the way, grammatically, “few, if any” certainly leaves room for, well, few. That’s why I used that expression instead of something like “Nobody.” Try to keep up. Unreal.
Bucky, I certainly have a view on the gifting and tithing questions. If you really want them, send me an e-mail at barbaricyawp43@gmail.com.
A perfect example of how dissenting voices are “welcome” on this site is how you jumped on Appreciate above for his very reasonable assumption that a poster on the Chesapeake thread was talking about Chesapeake. Something tells me if Canary or Quizzler or some other regular made a similar mistake she would have been gently corrected with a smiley face.
To all former pastors of SGM who have been “let go” for lack of gifting:
Why do you give these leaders of SGM so much control over your life, allowing them to validate your calling and then allowing them to take it away? I just don’t understand this??
To those of you who were forced to “step down” (which I now really believe to be were fired) while I was at SGCC, I am so sorry for not beating doors down and questioning, questioning, questioning the leadership. What the leadership did was just plain wrong and I do regret that I sat back in my blinded state and did nothing. I saw truly gifted men and men that I believe are called into pastoral ministry with the giftings and grace for pastoring, brought down for what I believe to be man’s own purposes. Please forgive me.
OK BY…
Thanks for the English lesson.
Barbaric Yawp
You said…………..”As I have said more than once, my perspective is generally NOT welcome and I’m not interested in provoking people.”
It wasn’t too long ago that Jim posted an entire thread on this blog dedicated to you and your point-of-view. Jim was also very clear to all that it was time to “tone it down” and although I don’t necessarily agree, I do respect him, and it’s his blog after all.
You also said……..”Something tells me if Canary or Quizzler or some other regular made a similar mistake she would have been gently corrected with a smiley face.”
…………….why do you assume that Quizzler is a she?
and finally……………….. I meant no dis concerning the Walt Whitman comment other than to note that in the poem, the term barbaric yawp strikes me as a sort of free-spirited expression (which seems to suite you).
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler — you wrote to me, “Why do you assume that Quizzler is a brother and not a sister?” Then you wrote to BY, “why do you assume that Quizzler is a she?” Are you always so disagreeable? It’s as though you are fishing for disagreement. As though you thrive on discord rather than reconciliation.
OK, I was wrong on two points in my previous comment:
1) Eric is not yet Senior Pastor.
2) It was charlie who implied that his “SR Pastor and His wife are doing the church books with out accountability.” I’m not sure if either charlie or Quizzler are implying that this is also taking place at the SG church in Chesapeake, or at any particular SG church.
Fred, beginning your rebuke of me with “DUH” is not helpful to a productive conversation. If you’re not looking for a redemptive discourse, though, I suppose it’s an appropriate word.
Fred, you asked, “How do you reconcile the fact that these same men or others in the movement later determined that you no longer had the gifting to pastor or that you no longer had the grace to pastor?” My response: Sometimes people are called to a particular role for a particular period of time. Jesus was the rabbi over his Apostles for only three years; that was it. (I’m just mentioning Jesus as a biblical leader here, not trying to imply that SGM pastors are God.) I’d think it’d be ideal to have pastors stay with their congregation for their entire lives. But it’s not a biblical mandate. I’d be interested in knowing how long the Apostles and early church leaders stayed with each congregation with which they served….
AppreciatesSGM,
Could it be that the Quizzler actually has a personality and knows how to use humor, and isn’t a SG drone that must always sniff out the sins of the accusers.
You might want to step back out of the bad air and breathe in the freedom found in the gospel of the way, truth and life.
I know you’ll view me as attacking you, but I am just trying to “speak truth” into your life. You have heard that term, I am sure. I am saddened by your point of view but understand it well–been there, done that.
One more bit of trivia, you wrote, “I’d be interested in knowing how long the Apostles and early church leaders stayed with each congregation with which they served….”
What makes you think they had “congregations” in the sense that “we” have? Perhaps if we could bring one of the people of the 1st century, or a bunch of them, into the mess we’ve made out of Christianity with its thousands of denominations (yes, I know SGM vehemently denies they are a denomination), they would be appalled.
I wonder what they would think of the huge multi-million dollar monstrosities we call “churches?” I wonder what they would think of the money funneled into the church machinery, just to make its wheels turn week in and week out, and almost totally ignore the poor and hurting ALL around them? I wonder what they would think about the manipulating message to grab more money from the laity to fund their programs and salaries and pensions? I wonder what they would think about how SGM selects their leadership people? I wonder what they would think about how the the western, modern “church” co-mingles law and grace?
Oh, and Jim, nice job in capitalizing the word “English,” since we are being so fussy.
Help me with this denomination thing. I know that SGM says it isn’t a denomination. Yet, it functions as one. The Head Apostle thing (good gracious) is definitely a denominational distinctive. Just because Mahaney claims it isn’t a denomination doesn’t mean that its not! Why would he say its not?
Wow.
Appreciate, you seem to think that you (or I) are a part of a “New Testament Church”, or that what we do on Sunday bears some resemblance to the first century church.
Wow.
Jim, I’m not following you. Of course most of our Western churches, and the meetings they conduct, don’t look like what took place in the homes of believers in first century Israel.
That said, we can still learn from those first century Christians, applying principles that they explained in Scripture and lived out in community.
Maybe I’m not understanding. Why the “wow” from you when I referenced Scripture and the early church leaders? Should we not look to them for guidance on how we “do church” today?
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM — you seem surprised that I mention that early church leaders served congregations of believers. Scripture clearly speaks of elders and such, people who served their churches in leadership roles. Again, maybe I’m not understanding your concern.
Dee said:
“Help me with this denomination thing. I know that SGM says it isn’t a denomination. Yet, it functions as one. The Head Apostle thing (good gracious) is definitely a denominational distinctive. Just because Mahaney claims it isn’t a denomination doesn’t mean that its not! Why would he say its not?”
SGM claims that they are an association of churches but when the Cleveland Church back in the PDI decided to leave the “association” Dave Harvey said in a letter that this church didn’t have the “spiritual authority to remove the church from the care of the Apostolic team.” For Harvey to use that kind of language sounds more like a denomination then just an “association.” They did allow them to leave but Harvey acted as if they didn’t have the authority to decide that.
Apprecite SGM wrote, “Scripture clearly speaks of elders and such, people who served their churches in leadership roles….”
SG “leaders” who “serve their “churches” lead as kings, dictators, and call themselves our ‘coverings’ (not all–but especially those at the top) instead of examples of servants and persuaders to those in their sphere of influence. They act more like CEOs and upper and middle management than as men who if followed would lead those following to more intimacy with the Lord Jesus. Everything comes from intimacy with Him, not attempts of improving the flesh, i.e. living religiously and independently on our own batteries, if you will. He is the impetus of everything we do “good,” for without Him we can do nothing, just as He couldn’t do anything without the Father, as a man.
SGM “leaders” will throw you under the bus with “church” discipline when you challenge or question them to any serious degree. At best, they will marginalize you.–That isn’t leadership; that isn’t “serving the church.” And that doesn’t compel one to intimacy.
Appreciate said:
Maybe I’m not understanding. Why the “wow” from you when I referenced Scripture and the early church leaders? Should we not look to them for guidance on how we “do church” today?
Gratefully Disillusioned from SGM — you seem surprised that I mention that early church leaders served congregations of believers. Scripture clearly speaks of elders and such, people who served their churches in leadership roles. Again, maybe I’m not understanding your concern.
1-Yes! Let’s start with the most descriptive and prescriptive chapter in the NT-
1 Cor 14.
2- Your original argument was about Apostles-now you are talking about elders. Read Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus re elders, again, the most instructive data we have. Do you see the words “calling” or “gifting?”
Jim, I’ve been talking about the larger category of “church leader.” So I mentioned the Apostles, many of whom served in leadership roles in their churches. I also mentioned elders, who serve in leadership roles in their churches. I could also mention “overseers” (KJV says “bishop,” we might say “pastor” now).
Sure feels like a game of “gotcha!” around here. And it’s got us down rabbit holes.
I still wonder why you exclaimed “wow” at my previous comment. I really don’t understand what you found stunning about what I’d written.
By “gotcha” you mean like Barbaric Yawp did to Jim with the English lesson?
Appreciate,
I’m not playing games with you. That last Apostle died at the end of the first century, so I found your first question to be a little odd-sort of an apples and oranges thing…
I’m assuming that you agree with SGM’s position that pastor, elder, and overseer are interchangeable. We do indeed call them pastors now, which is quite funny. Pastor is used once in the NT as a noun. It means shepherd.
Imagine if we used the actually English translation of the Greek word today.
“That’s Bob. He’s my shepherd.” Better yet-”he’s my Senior Shepherd.” (Yikes! Don’t tell Jesus)
Try that one on your neighbor.
What if we just spoke in a normal, Biblical manner and said, “that’s Bob. He’s an elder in the local Christian community.”
Did you find all of the calling and gifting stuff In Paul’s instructions to Timothy and Titus?
AppreciateSGM
You said………..”Quizzler — you wrote to me, “Why do you assume that Quizzler is a brother and not a sister?” Then you wrote to BY, “why do you assume that Quizzler is a she?” Are you always so disagreeable? It’s as though you are fishing for disagreement. As though you thrive on discord rather than reconciliation.”
Quizzler asks these types of questions to make a point……………the point being, that often people jump to conclusions and make groundless assessments based on their pre-conceived notions, judgements and presumptions.
Any meaningful discourse must be based on truth and not biases and assumptions that have no basis in reality. I commend those that question what they are presented as they seek the truth; I challenge those that twist or disregard the truth……….as should we all……….. Pr 12:17
N.S.L.B.
AppreciateSGM, you are right. The “DUH” was rude and I apologize. It seemed obvious to me that you had not carefully read The Quizzler’s post because he in no way mentioned Eric and Marie or even Chesapeake. Let us be careful not to jump to conclusions nor presume or judge others and what they are not saying.
In regards to my post on 8/13: I stated “they are all robotic and void of compassion.”
This is not an accurate description to say “all” —that is a sweeping statement —I surely cannot describe “all” SGM pastors in one lump. And to use the description of void—is wrong, please forgive me. Void would then mean inhumane. I would edit the word ‘void’ out…and say many are lessened and/or greatly lessened, in compassion.
In all the discussion above about church beginnings and how the church is to function, etc, etc………. I pray Pastors of SGM will remember the command of
Exodus 22:22, and not endorse affliction upon anyone.
John 12:28-31: “And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing,and recognizing that He had answered them well,asked Him ‘What commandment is the foremost of all?’ Jesus answered ‘The foremost is, HEAR O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; and YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH. The second is this, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. There is no greater commandment greater than these.”
Waters-
Kudos.
Barbaric Yawp,
What did CJ preach to the flock at SGCC today? I really don’t have time to listen to it all. Was he down here installing Eric as Sr Pastor today? If not, when does that happen?
FYI: The “apostle” Gene’s take on what occurred last Sunday at Chesapeake; click here.
Perhaps those closer to the situation may want to clarify.
Sounds to me like one big happy family with God moving people around to plant another SG “church” (Keith needing 9 months of training under Gene, after being a senior pastor for 4 years–Gene must be especially gifted) and to strengthen the SG “church” at Chesapeake. I am amazed at how these men hear from God so clearly and precisely–amazing! Sorry about the scepticism, but do I sense the works of the flesh here, or is that just me?
As we are all hoping for evidence of change, I read the pastors’ blog from SGCC. After reading this one, http://sgcpastorsblog.com/2009.....f-two-men/ by BC, I was reminded of all the focus and teaching on sin and self. Yes there is a redeeming paragraph of victory in Jesus at the end that I was thankful to read but once again the focus of the blog article was still sin and self.
There is so much more to Christianity than a focus on sin. Absolutely we need to have a balance but a focus on sin is robbing people of their identity in Christ and the abundant life that Jesus promises to all believers. There is so much more out there for believers – “Taste and see” for yourselves. God is moving throughout the earth – many are being saved daily, healed and delivered! Folks, get your eyes off your self (which a focus on sin really is) and lift your eyes to see Jesus! It is truly ALL about Him!
Fred,
Have you had a chance to listen to any of the recent messages given at SGCC? The current series is from Galatians and there was a short series (titled “Remember”) that was given as a prelude. I, for one, would like to hear your (and anyone elses) thoughts.
(Matt. 10:16)
Standing By,
No I have not listened to the series but I have heard that EH is doing an excellent job on Galatians. What is your take on the blog post by BC that was referenced above?
Fred,
I have to be honest and say that I just skimmed it. Given that, I didn’t read anything new. I will try to read the entire article today or tomorrow and give a better response.
As a further confession, I have a problem with such heavy use of a secular work to explain a scriptural topic, which is why I skimmed the posting. While secular documents can be (somewhat) beneficial I’m convinced that there are adequate examples in scripture and those examples should be given more weight than secular ones.
But that’s just me.
(Matt. 10:16)
Fred,
After reading the SGCC blog post I am encouraged, again, that the Spirit is moving within the pastoral staff at SGCC. While the overall message is much the same as in the past BC’s last paragraph underscores the changes that, those of us who have been praying for the Spirit’s working to break forth, have been waiting for – an acknowledgement that we have power over sin.
I don’t disagree with teaching the doctrine of indwelling sin. What I take issue with is its positioning as a primary doctrine. It is a doctrine that Christians need to know because without it, from my experience, many become convinced that they are already perfect and no longer look for “the perfect” to come. While many others become
convinced that they aren’t, and will never be, saved because they still sin. However, when it is taught it should always be taught within the full context of grace and not by itself as it often is.
BC used Romans 7 as the scriptural background of his point that we battle sin. I believe that instead of concluding with 7:19 he should have concluded with 8:1-11. When referencing Titus 2:12 it should have been in the full context of vv. 11-14.
I quess what I’m saying is, and I think it dovetails with your point in your November 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pm post, grace is the backdrop of the doctrine of indwelling sin, grace is the backdrop of ALL of our life, but SGM, and even BC’s post, give the impression, at best, that indwelling sin is the backdrop of grace. This is what I find most
disturbing about SGM’s focus – while acknowledging grace it is only from the perspective of sin. If sin is dead why is this so?
I don’t know if this answered your question or even made any sense to anyone but me but its what went through my mind.
(Matt. 10:16)
If sin is dead why is this so?
Good question, Standing By!
IMHO and more than 40 years of being in Christ (I say that to give myself some credibility:-) ), the law is never a backdrop of grace. Grace stands alone and is the GOOD NEWS, the GIFT. God no longer deals with me on the basis of the law–no way!
The New Covenant is not the OLD Covenant upgraded, kind of like Windows 7 is an upgrade toVista. The New Covenant is the realityof the shadow. HE HAS COME!!! Why do I want to go back to, “God is good; I am bad;try harder? The New isn’t the OLD part “B” Man can NEVER be righteous on his own. I am righteous in Christ, in His resurrected LIFE, not in my performance. There can be no boasting because any fruit connected with my life has its source in the vine–HIM manifesting HIMSELF out through me, as me!
GDfSGM,
I agree (except with the Windows thing).
While reading BC’s post it dawned on me that SGM uses sin (the law) as the backdrop for grace. I think this is why, or at least one reason why, they are so stuck with purging sin. We have been justified by the finished work of Christ and that’s how God sees us. While they say this, they are still pre-Luther in their thinking – there still seems to be a belief that “I” (each individual) has to purge sin from our individual lives before grace can be complete.
While there is teaching that we are justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE there appears to be an intellectual disconnect that there is much we must do (works) before that takes effect. Yes, we are to “work out our own salvation” but “it is God who works” (Phil 2:12-13) not us. This seems to have gotten lost somewhere.
(Matt. 10:16)
Standing By,
Excellent, excellent posts! Thanks so much. I agree with most all that you wrote and I also believe as you said that “SGM uses sin (the law) as the backdrop for grace.” John 1:17, “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”
I was happy to read the last paragraph in BC’s blog post but let’s face it – the article was about sin and self. This leads me to think that at least this pastor has not changed his focus! Since it is a post on the SGCC pastors’ blog, I have to believe that any article on this blog must represent the views of all the pastors. So again, are things really changing?
Romans 5:1-2, Romans 6:14
Sorry, I’ll try again. Romans 6:14
If you are wondering how Keith Breault is doing under Gene Emerson’s tutelage, here is a link to help. click here
It seems Keith needs a little more tweaking, and he’ll be all set. Since he’s not quite ready because of reported administrative leadership (gifting) deficiencies and his SGM funding ending in May, it seems like Gene plans to appeal to the good people in that church to help just a little more in the upcoming “partnership fund” appeal.
Administrative leadership: What pray tell does that mean? I looked high and low, and don’t see that as a qualification for eldership–is it just me?
They’re at it again down in Chesapeake…………..
This time it’s Brett C’s use of a beloved parable “the prodigal son” found in Luke 15:11-32 to flog and intimidate the sheep into believing that if they leave the church they will suffer poverty, loneliness and despair, and end up crawling back to the church in humiliation; but not to worry…….the church will offer mercy.
In this twisted account, the prodigal son is played by those who have left the church, while the father is played by, none other than the church itself.
For those of you would like to hear this story, start at the beginning and suffer through the first 15 minutes where the prodigal son is demonized as being:
Proud
Arrogant
Disrespectful
Headstrong
Superficial
Worldly
……..even though the sins of the prodigal son are never specified in these Scriptures, Brett is taking liberty in filling in/adding to the Scriptures by assuming that these are indeed the prodigal son’s sins. Was this done just to make a point? Then, out of nowhere, at the 15 min 25 sec point in the message, comes this statement……..“What do you do with someone who leaves the church and you know the reasons why they’re leaving are wrong reasons? What do you do with someone like that?”
Later, at the 50 min 10 sec point (if you can tolerate it that long), a similar statement is made again..……….“Remember that person that left the church for the reasons you knew were wrong? How do you interact with them when they decide to come back? So what is the point?
Time for a quiz……
This message is:
A) A thinly veiled threat to the sheep who may be considering leaving the church.
B) An admonishment of those that have left the church.
C) An attempt to put fear into the hearts of all the sheep.
D) A judgment that it’s a sin to leave the church.
E) All of the above.
This is nothing more than a blatant threat to those that have left the church (or are considering it) that they are in sin and that things will go badly for them as they end up in some sort of pig sty.
One can only wonder what those who have left, and come back to this dysfunctional church, thought about this message.
How do they like being labeled “prodigals” and “sinners”?
Did the senior pastor approve this message?
Is there any adult leadership in this church?
Any wisdom?
……….so many questions, so little time.
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler Person…Dude, you are crazy!
I know the answer, I know the answer!!!!
Excellent point, Quizzler. So what does that make the elder brother…the church members left behind?
Because the funniest part about the whole thing is that the older brother is the ONE who NEVER REPENTS! He is the point of the story.
Hey Quizzler,
If I said it once, I’d say it a million times. There is something about you that I feel protected by. Thank you…for spilling the beans. I left the church…Sovereign Grace Ministries and all I can do is suck down gulps and gulps of free air. Can’t wait to listen.
McD~ what do you mean by making accusations of insanity towards quizzler?
Where you joking or mocking or what dude?
I love being part of the holy catholic church. Guess you would think that statement is crazy also. But if your in a church your in the catholic church also. I Forgot they don’t teach people that in SGM, Well maybe they will have to start now that they are in bed with the southern baptist and main line evangelicals.
Quizzler,
arrrgggghhhhh (gasping, choking, repulsed………..)
This “teaching” by BC is absolutely astonishingly………nonsensical and downright UNBiblical.
And- is PUBLIC proof positive how the arrogant, pompous, puffed-up, ,accusers of the Brethren,stone-throwing, shunning advocates, denyers of truth sgm Chesapeake leadership REALLY think of all those whom have left their church. Really, Brett??? Have you looked Esther in the eye and lambasted these charges??? How about any of the 3 Couples who were advocates for broken and abused women????????????????? And the offer of mercy is extended to people who have left—- by you and your blind sheep??????????????
Obviously, Brett and the leadership have NOT repented of their insistence of counseling women to remain in abusive situations, and threatening church discipline for those who refused his orders to remain with an abusive husband or returning to an adulterous spouse in his (Bretts) timeline. Well— we see you by your fruit, BC.—Apparently,all of us who have left are the errant sinners in your eyes—in need of your benediction of mercy—shall we recite 3 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Marys????
Ohmygoodness..our family REJOICES in Gods great deliverance HE brought about for us from sgm—–reread the Prodigal Son story, BC— as RT pointed out–the older brother, the arrogant religous,list-checking (bitter) older brother—didnot repent and didnot enter in to the Fathers great joy of the celebration of redemption. Look in the mirror, BC.
“Oh give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, for His lovingkindness is everlasting. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom He has redeemed from the hand of the adversary.”
–Psalms 107: 1-2—–
Years ago, I heard a pastor (formerly known as apostle) say on several occasions (and this is as direct a quote as my memory can handle), “We want to be a church that is easy to leave and easy to come back to.”
Fast forward a year or so. Same guy says, “We cautioned so-and-so not to leave, because once they’re out from under our covering, there’s nothing we can do….”
How sad. Psalm 91 sums up our covering pretty well. He will cover me with his feathers — under His wings, I will trust…I shall not fear the dark of night, nor the arrow that flies by day!
Quizzler,
Thank you for enduring a tedious SGM lecture in order to illustrate the manipulative and self-serving nature of the airbags that have the audicity to put fear into the hearts of God’s Children.
Also, thank you for standing up and boldly declaring the Emperor is completely naked (morally, in this case.) That you have not been struck by lightening nor has any calamity visited you is encouragement for the more timid amongst the body to grow a set of their own.
Well, well, well. Thank you Quizzler for bringing this to light. Thanks for being on top of things! After listening to these statements for myself, it is clear to me that Brett was not referring to those who are truly prodigals and have rebelled against God (that is a true prodigal -one who has rebelled against God and has turned away from God, seeking after the world and wasting his/her inheritance not someone who has left “the church”). He is clearly speaking of those who have left “the church”, SGC, for that IS EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID! ”WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO HAVE LEFT THE CHURCH FOR REASONS THAT YOU KNOW ARE WRONG?“ Whoa! Why I am shocked once again by this man?? Why is this man still a pastor at SGC? His manipulation, control and yes spiritual abuse of the sheep is still occuring and we all hear it coming through his VERY WORDS!! From the past history in this church that all pastors know what the designated “Sunday morning teacher” is going to preach (they all use to sit around a table and discuss the passages (text) that were going to be “taught” so that they would all be on the same page. I have to wonder – did the sr. pastor approve of this message? Did the sr. pastor approve of Brett’s words? Does the sr. pastor agree that those who have left are prodigals?
I want to thank God for His faithfulness! Jesus says in Matthew 10:26 ”Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” and 1 Cor. 4:5 that the “Lord will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts.” God continues to expose the darkness and the very motives of the heart of these “leaders” within SGM and its churches, this time again in Chesapeake. Those who are still in SGC are shouting from the rooftops that this is a different church now under the new sr. pastor. This message from Brett proves without a doubt that things are no different. The arrogant, superior, judgemental attitudes that were there before are still there and are still being preached from the pulpit (Oh, excuse me….that should be taught from the lectern. My mistake…..)
For those who left and went back…..run to the nearest exit! You are in great danger!
PS Welcome back McD! Glad to see that you are still with us. Looking forward to the day when your heart is with us as well! That day is coming for you!
Quizzler said, “ In this twisted account, the prodigal son is played by those who have left the church, while the father is played by, none other than the church itself.”
So the implication is that leaving that particular church (denomination) is tantamount to leaving our heavenly Father. Very serious error.
My thoughts on the dire warnings:
When someone makes the decision to distance themselves from a highly dysfunctional group (church, family, job, etc) the decision is seen by the group as a declaration that all is not right within the group. They (the group) can take it very personally, hence the dire warnings. Then, if a person who leaves the group does not prosper, the dysfunctional group can feel justified. The problem with this thinking is that when a person has been in a dysfunctional situation for any length of time, he or she does not necessarily blossom right away upon leaving. If their foundation is faulty, if they have clung too tightly to life in SGM rather than to our heavenly Father, they can feel very lost and unstable on the “outside.” People who leave dysfunctional or abusive situations are generally not emotionally/spiritually healthy. Just as a person raised in an unhealthy family has much to overcome, so does the person whose spiritual foundation was laid in an unhealthy church. Healthy churches tend to build healthy people. When someone leaves a healthy church, they can be sent out with some assurance that the foundation, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone, will hold.
QUESTION: IS IT OK TO LEAVE A SOVEREIGN GRACE CHURCH? OR ARE WE ALL PRODIGALS?
I didn’t leave, I got dismembered so I guess I’m off the hook although Im sure I’ll burn for other reasons.
Gee, compared to this, isn’t God’s grace wonderful?
Total agreement with you Pilgrim! Well said! In answer to Greener Pastures, it has been known for sometime that SGM believes that it is NEVER ok to leave a Sovereign Grace Church and that it would never be God’s will for people to leave. How could it be God’s will if that church, SGC and all other SGM churches, are THE church and are the only ones who really have it right? Therefore, if you leave a SGM church, then yes, they deem you to be a prodigal.
Brett said, people who have left and YOU KNOW FOR THE WRONG REASONS! Who are they to judge the motives of others’ hearts for leaving? Actually, judging others’ motives, behaviors, words, ways always went on in my SGC church!!
Someone answer the question: in this interpretation, who is the older brother?????
Very important. You can’t just pick and choose in a parable! I see SGM as the older brother–legalistic and pouty when they encounter freedom and grace.
I certainly didn’t find the message very inspiring.
I am trying to figure out if Brent Campbell meant someone choosing to not follow Christ any longer when he talked about those ”leaving the church.” He really didn’t clarify this and thus left it open for interpretation. Maybe he really means, as some have, those who leave SGM. He might have purposely not made it that clear or he would be leaving himself open to more scrutiny.
Of course SGM claim they believe in Calvinism including the 5 points of TULIP. The “P” in TULIP stand for “perseverance of the saints. ” This teaches that it is not possible for a true believer to fall away and stop following Christ. If someone does this then this person never was a true believer to begin with according to this point of Calvinism.
Thus if Brent really believes the 5 points of Calvinism then he would be referring to people leaving SGM. Of course this wouldn’t be the first time that SGM leaders’ actions contradict their supposed belief in Calvinism so not sure you can use this type of logic.
RT,
Have you seen the Rembrandt painting of “The Prodigal Son”? Rembrandt beautifully captures the depths of this parable. The fathers’ face and hands speak volumes of love,care,compassion……..the son is dirty and broken and at his fathers feet…….the older brother is obscured in the background—he doesnot engage in the welcoming, nor does he appear happy/thankful—he is, as you stated above “legalistic and pouty” as he is witnessing an encounter of freedom and grace.
Apparently, BC is pouty about people who have left sgmChesapeake. He is not moved that people who were mauled and broken by his legalistic abusive counseling have found freedom and redemption. No, once again as one who “stands in the very stead of God”, he propogates an “us against them” mentality —the “them” being those who have left the building on the corner of Elbow Rd and Centerville.
I knew someone who spent nearly two years after leaving sgm living in fear that either the leaders would come after her or that somehow she was no longer “covered” by God. Eventually, she learned that superstition was alive in her old church. Nothing terrible happened to her. She actually grew deeper in her faith. The family finances actually improved! She learned that to threaten someone with evil tidings just because the someone leaves a particular church is mere superstitious baloney, founded on the need for some man to control his congregation. Today she is free and spiritually more healthy than she ever was in her old controlling church.
As for the prodigal son, Mr. Canary has been commenting on that lately. The elder brother does not rejoice at the younger brother’s return because of a deep lack of love. The elder brother is more concerned about what he has “earned” than that his brother has returned safely home for good. There is no rejoicing in this man’s heart, only judgment.
We all know that Jesus was speaking of the Father, a Christian gone astray who returns to his first love, and another Christian who’s heart is filled with bitterness and judgment. So let’s hope that B.C. was not speaking of people who leave his church but of people who seem to leave God. They are not one and the same. If he was teaching the don’t-leave-this-church-or-you-will-be-leaving-God’s-perfect-will theme, then he is teaching falsely. Is there anyone who can verify what B.C. actually meant? Is it not clear enough in his teaching? Someone should ask him.
Yeah, I don’t get it.
The prodigal is interesting, but he is the one who comes homes broken to the only source of joy. He is the one who does things right!
The older brother is the one who never turns his back on his own sin. He is hard to the end, and the parable ends with no hope in sight for him.
Steve 240 writes, “I am trying to figure out if Brent Campbell meant someone choosing to not follow Christ any longer when he talked about those ”leaving the church.”
My thoughts: Brent Cambell says, “What do you do with someone who leaves the church, and you know the reasons why they’re leaving are wrong reasons? What do you do with someone like that?”
Seems to me that when B.C. says, ” . . . you know the reasons why they’re leaving are wrong reasons. . .,” he implies that there could be right reasons. Since there could never be right reasons for choosing not to follow Christ any longer, I believe he must be referring to the “local church.”
Yes, Pilgrim, my thoughts exactly. There are never any right reasons for leaving Jesus and Brett’s words imply that there are right and wrong reasons for leaving the church. SGC has been through so much in the last 2 years. Why would Brett bring up those who have left and even those who have left and come back? How did those in that category – left and come back feel when he said that? I wonder if there was some squirming going on in the seats that Sunday? We can debate Brett’s motives all day and come away wondering. It seems clear to me that he was talking about those who have left SGC and those who have left and come back. If I am wrong, I am still shocked at his lack of love and care for the people. Where is his discernment and wisdom? Where is his shepherd’s heart of compassion for the people – those who have never left and those who have left and come back? It just does not appear to be there in his statements that Sunday morning as well as in his past treatment (over many years) of the sheep.
Interesting to me that Brett says to offer those who have left and come back mercy. Mercy because they have sinned by leaving? Mercy because they are hurting? Mercy is an amazing gift from our Savior and I for one am so thankful for His mercy. But my Savior’s mercy is always accompanied by His love. No mention of loving these people in any of Brett’s statements. No mention of opening your arms wide and welcoming these people back into the fold, just as the prodigal’s father did for him.
This is part of what is wrong in that church – the lack of love. The love of Jesus Christ for God’s people is and has been missing at the church on Centerville and Elbow Rd. for a long time! You cannot give out what you have not received for yourself. When one is focused on sin, sin, sin (religion and legalism) you cannot see the Savior and you cannot receive His love. My prayer for this church is that they will be flooded with the love of the Savior! They will never be the same once they have really tasted this love from Him and they will never treat their brethren with the cold hearted relgious ways that have been the norm in this church for years.
Pilgrim and Fred………..
Give yourselves an A and move to the head of the class.
Of course he is talking about leaving the church (and specifically that church).
For those that missed Brett’s message the first time, it can be found here.
N.S.L.B.
Pilgrim and Fred
Good analysis. I would also like to give you A’s. ;-)
If he said some people left for the wrong reasons than at least he is implying that some leave for the right reasons. It is a shame he doesn’t do more than just imply. As we have discussed on here, there were a number of right reasons for people to leave SGM Chesapeake including sins done by the leaders. It is too bad he didn’t acknowledge this. Weren’t the leaders just as prodigal and maybe still are?
Maybe prodigal but in another sense the big brother. As someone said in an earlier post, the prodigal repented so they are more like the big brother – self righteous, judgmental, legalistic, unforgiving and bitter. SGC leaders have not repented for much of what happened 2 years ago. As you may remember Keith did apologize in January for some of the issues, not all, that the 3 couples presented to him in November. There were never any apologies to the 3 couples for slandering their names and reputations, at least as far as I know.
In my opinion, the question should not be are there “right reasons or wrong reasons” to leave a church, the question should be, where in scripture is the authority given to a “church” (leaders or apparently anyone in this case) to determine right or wrong reasons.
As Brent so succinctly put it when he said “What do you do with someone who leaves the church and you know the reasons why they’re leaving are wrong reasons? What do you do with someone like that?”- are you kidding me. This sounds like individual members are either discerners of ultimate truth or are supposed to be “informed” via the dreaded “family meeting” why someone leaves the church and then be able to judge right there on the spot that those reasons were the “wrong” reasons, i.e. discerners of the heart - as if, these folks have committed the unpardonable sin.
I know the message contains some prescriptions on how to treat this Proud, Arrogant, Disrespectful, Headstrong, Superficial, Worldly person upon their “return” to the church – are you kidding me. This makes the implied presumption that if they do not return to the church (a.k.a. SGM), they are lost.
The implications of this thought process and delivery seems to project the idea that SGM is the “savior”. I have a hard time actually writing that, but I think it needs to be considered. This may speak to a much deeper issue than even polity.
Just some thoughts to consider.
Fred said-
“SGC leaders have not repented for much of what happened 2 years ago. As you may remember Keith did apologize in January for some of the issues, not all, that the 3 couples presented to him in November. There were never any apologies to the 3 couples for slandering their names and reputations, at least as far as I know.”
This is beyond my understanding. Keith B, the financial team, and most of all, Gene Emerson, assassinated the character of 6 heroes, who loved Chesapeake enough to sacrifice everything dear to them because of their love for the church.
Gene, it’s time to face your past mistakes and make this right.
It is sad to hear that no apologies have been given for the slandering of these six “heroes”, as Jim rightly calls them. This is truly awful. They are in good company, as Jesus was slandered a lot. Still is to this day, come to think of it. God bless those three couples for their courage and compassion. May they see great rewards for their loving sacrifice. To those who slandered them and have yet to rectify their wrong, shame on you. Where is your conscience?
Just for the record, Gene Emerson is reaping some of the crop that he has sown. Bumped into a wonderful saint a couple days ago who told me that much of her family had exited Gene’s “church,” — MUCH to my surprise. This saint went on to name so and so and so and so and so and so–many dear friends who have left Kingsway. Frankly, I was surprised. This saint glowed with freedom and joy and raved about the wonderful, authentic church that they had found. She expressed much joy outside of SGM–imagine that.
I honestly thought of Chesapeake and Metro as being the troubled SG “churches; however, there seems to be trouble in gene-land, with many exiting. One family in particular, one of the originals, was holding Gene’s feet to the fire, regarding allowing spontaneousquestion and answer sessions during family meeting times. Reportedly, Gene balked but eventually acquiesced.
Perhaps, Jim, God is using this whole process to help Gene see how far he and many others in “high places” have slipped–I don’t know. If Gene and company will just stop trying to protect themselves and their business model, IMHO, God could bring about a huge out- pouring of healing and restoration. The Gene I knew was so intoxicated with “church” success and power, that I viewed it as hopeless, BUT God has a way of helping us in our arrogance and blindness to see things as they really are.
BUT God has a way of helping us in our arrogance and blindness to see things as they really are.
G.D.,
God changed us, right? He can help anybody see the truth. Saul turned to Paul. Talk about impossible! Yet, it happened. It is good that you still have hope for Gene and company. As usual, you have a big heart!
Canary, yes He can! And none of us are exempted from the arrogance and self-righteousness that we so easily clamor against.
True, G.D.! So glad we are under grace. Wish all the saints could understand that in a living way. Freedom from sin digging! It’s wonderful!
Gene Emerson was supposed to be the “APOSTLE”. He was supposed to be the overseer of the region including Chesapeake. Wouldn’t an overseer be one who would protect the sheep? And yet, when Esther asked for helped, Gene would not get involved. That’s why the 3 couples stepped in in the first place. There was no one to help the sheep who were being abused, not to mention the wrong doctrine being developed and the financial misdeeds that were occurring at SGC.
Gene Emerson was the one who stood in front of those invited to the private meeting and called for the repentance of the 3 couples and then asked everyone to become allies of the pastors, basically calling the 3 couples enemies of the church. This man who identified himself as an apostle, totally did not follow Matthew 18 but went right to the throat – slandering and maligning the names and reputations of the 3 couples. How in the world can this man, Gene Emerson come to SGC as he did a month or so ago and preach on GRACE???? This is beyond me.
Not only did he slander them publically, but I have it from a good source that he threatened the 3 couples privately that they would be cursed if they went to the whole church with the evidence of abuse, wrong doctrine, poor financial stewardship and asking the 3 pastors to step down.
SGC is not the only situation that Gene has handled poorly…..
Gratefully Dis’d,
You said….”there seems to be trouble in gene-land”. This is not really surprising since Gene was the architect of the Chesapeake kangaroo court that falsely slandered and indited those three couples down there. If he had any discernment or wisdom he would see that things will not go well for him (or his churches) until he owns up to, and publicly repents for, that shameful event.
I’m glad to hear that many of your friend’s family have left Kingsway and are now free of the legalism and manipulation of SGM. As I’ve said before, the only effective way to get SGM’s attention is to vote with your wallet or your feet.
Without free labor or financial resources the corporation, known as SGM, will fold.
N.S.L.B.
Gratefully disillusioned said:
” MUCH to my surprise. This saint went on to name so and so and so and so and so and so–many dear friends who have left Kingsway. ”
and
“If Gene and company will just stop trying to protect themselves and their business model, IMHO, God could bring about a huge out- pouring of healing and restoration. ”
Quizzler said:
“Without free labor or financial resources the corporation, known as SGM, will fold.”
Well maybe one thing they should understand being they seem to be running a “franchise” is loss of members and loss of contributions coming in. Money drying up might be the only thing that forces the group’s hand to asses where they are and what wrongs they have done etc. IMO
“The Architect of the Kangaroo Court” in Chesapeake, GE
and KB, BC, and the “Financial Team”——-
Slander; Not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth;
Inciting a congregation to take up offense against 3 couples whom God raised up to be advocates of His justice and protection for abused women and children.
Railing against 3 couples who confronted abusively controling pastors……..
—– These would still be the standing charges in Chesapeake ——–
Emerson deflected his opportunity to take the lead, as the area ‘apostle’,not only for himself, but the other men involved. A whitewash appears sanitized for a season…..
It sounds as if God is shaking Kingsway. Much—so much— has grievously occured under GE’s watch over the years…..And still— little discernment—– and deflection of responsibility for the broken sheep in the assigned pasture.
This is Gods great mercy — Shaking, sifting……… What will be the response, sgm????
Will you keep in office errant apostles or leaders who purposely walk around the broken, not hearing their cries (for you pride yourselves in being “the first among equals”)??
Is this how you train your pastors (now called elders?) to “watch over souls” of sgm congregants???? . Remember the holiness of God .
Saints——– We have not been redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold,
but with precious Blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless,
the Blood of Christ. IPeter 1: 18-19
It truly appalls me what SGC has done to the families that have left the church. They have once again blanketed the members of SGC with lies about their brothers and sisters who left. Can Father God not ask one of His beloved children to leave for His own desires? How good it is to know the true Father of heaven and to follow His voice.
Yes, Light.we are so thankful, too,to follow our Redeemers Voice above all others.
BC certainly planted the seed of “us against them” with his statement of “What do you say to someone like THAT?” Very revealing tactic of subtle branding……
Welcome Light in Darkness to the Refuge! Thank you for joining us and thank you for your words of LIGHT AND TRUTH!
Certainly, Brett has once again encouraged the ongoing deception concerning those who have left. What could have been a time for healing and restoration within SGC has actually been a time used to strengthen and fortify the strongholds of division, deception, judgmentalism, fear, and lies concerning those who have left as well as those who left and have returned and those who might be thinking of leaving. Unity of the brethren is the heartcry of our Lord Jesus Christ. Any pastors who are preaching or teaching division and separation within the body of Christ are not following the heartbeat and life of Jesus.
Light in Darkness
Most cults embrace an “us verses the world” doctrine and practice varying degrees of “shunning”. This is such a clear example of what the pastors in Chesapeake think of those who left their church. It’s a not-so-subtle teaching for the sheep still trapped in that church that says – those that departed are in sin; what are we to do with the likes of them? If they come back you should show them mercy; their sin should be forgiven. The other, more subtle message is, that if you leave, you will be in sin also. SGM believes that there is no valid reason to leave one of their churches unless you move to a new geographic location and then only if you reaffiliate with an SGM church at the new location.
Here’s a question that the sheep trapped at Chesapeake may want to ask their pastors – “Is there ever a good reason for me to leave this church?”
I’m sure that the readers here would be interested in the response.
Are there any sheep left there with the courage to ask this question?
Are there any sheep left there that even ask questions?
N.S.L.B.
Any pastors who are preaching or teaching division and separation within the body of Christ are not following the heartbeat and life of Jesus.
So true, Fred. “ [As for] a man who is factious [a heretical sectarian and cause of divisions], after admonishing him a first and second time, reject [him from your fellowship and have nothing more to do with him]…” Titus 3:10, Amplified Bible
Light in Darkness….welcome!
I had to smile as I consider the kindness of God that HE would speak to us and lead us in where and how to worship HIM.
As my husband (Defender) has said so many precious times: ‘it’s all about HIM!’
Looks like Paul was also called “enemy”! Galatians 4:16 “Have I then become your enemy by telling the truth to you and dealing sincerely with you?” (Amplified Bible) “Three couples”, looks like you are in good company - as in, Gene implying that you are enemies of the church for “telling the truth” to the leaders, confronting them with wrongdoing, and being genuine and sincere people!
appleleto… apelegio… apelgate… (pick an easier name, will ya?
) aple-iscious said, “In my opinion, the question should not be are there “right reasons or wrong reasons” to leave a church, the question should be, where in scripture is the authority given to a “church” (leaders or apparently anyone in this case) to determine right or wrong reasons.”
Amen, amen and amen! You hit the nail flat on the head! Thank y0u, aple-tini. You are so right. Since when did we accept the judgement of men when the leading of God is so much sweeter?
“What do you do with someone who leaves the church and you know the reasons why they’re leaving are wrong reasons? What do you do with someone like that?”
Um, have ‘em over for a cook out?
Stunned, HaHaHaHaHaHa! What a joker you are! Thanks for the chuckle…
Stunned, you are SO cracking me up! appletini! lol!
apelogeito – you are so spot on. the level of judgment and authority usurped from God Himself by these so-called leaders is nothing short of scary. The vapid lack of the fear of God is stunning and frightening.
The leading of God is SO much sweeter!
apelogeito, i hope you know i was just saying how much smarter you are than i am. i only got it correct this time because i could see it in defended’s post right above.
As one of the three couples, we have truly been very grieved this past week upon hearing, once again, that Sovereign Grace Church, Chesapeake, has again sought to slander and malign the three couples who brought evidence of corrupt analysis and interpretation of the Scripture, as well as other deficiencies within the church, and has now gone further to insinuate that ALL of those who have exited (and not just those who have brought grievances to the pastoral staff) an SG church, are indeed PRODIGALS. This was a blatant and arrogant message to all who have left SGC over the years, and indeed, brands all of them as PRODIGALS.
The Big Question is, are we prodigals, or are we individuals who have been bold enough to stand up for truth, many of us forsaking a great deal, and willing to sacrifice much, in order to bring forth truth; truth for the sake of the rest of the sheep. In an SGM Church, as many of us learned over the past few years, there is really only one way to vote for change: Through your pocket book or through your feet. I guess, all those who voted through their feet have now earned the title of PRODIGAL. What an utterly corrupt misuse of a parable and Scripture in order to forward one’s agenda!
SGM Chesapeake, and specifically Brett Campbell, you should feel a great deal of shame for distorting Scripture for your own gain! That message was a major slap in the face to all who gave so much to SGM over the years, and are now enjoying freedom ouside the walls of this organization, with th rest of the living body of Christ.
L in D -
I am sure I speak for many of us that we grieve with you and the other couples. What a shame that SGM/PDI have gone through (abused and mistreated) so many good people over the years only to place the onus of their sin on those good people. My heart breaks for you all and the body of Christ as we are all affected by inappropriate use of authority. You are in my heart and my prayers – God bless you!!
Irv
Dear Light in Darkness,
As one of the Three Couples, you are, indeed, one of our heros in the faith. We know the battles you fought; your grief over the evil counsel given to women; the cost to you as you laid down your lives to expose the leaven of Pharisees.——- No, you nor any who have left sgc are NOT “prodigals”.
At some point, the Senior Pastor of sgc, should be bringing stringent correction to BC-for BC obviously carries a grudge towards those who were a part of uncovering his astonishing abusive and manipulative behavior behind the doors of “counseling”. The ‘fruit’ in the heart of BC is clearly showing. But then again, maybe the sr pastor agrees with all this prodigal branding.
The sin of maligning and slander and inciting the Brethren to believe a lie still exists as a stench at the feet of Gene E. However, Gene is oblivious. — And so, the effects of Gene’s
declarations against the “3 Couples” continues to thrive in sgChesapeake. It is so very obvious —except, apparently, to those in leadership and those in the pews who have become accustomed to knowing there is a stench—but now, they ignore it.
Light in Darkness, this is the call you have answered and the banner over you:
God sent you to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed
and to procalim the favorable year of the Lord (Luke 4:18)
WELL DONE, FAITHFUL SERVANTS, WELL DONE
Dear Light in the Darkness,
Thank you so much for the courage, boldness and love that you have shown towards God and the people at SGC. You stood up for righteousness, you stood up for Christ, and you stood up for those in the congregation who could not stand up for themselves! How do I know that you did those things? I know because I too am one part of the “3 couples”. No matter what those at SGC and SGM believe about the “3 couples”, our hearts were pure before God as we pursued truth and righteousness within SGC. Would we have ever sought out involvement in something like this? Absolutely not. No matter what anyone believes about us, God called us to stand up for truth, whatever the cost to ourselves. We all lost much – our reputations, friendships, and even the very church that we all loved so much. Would I do it again? YES, YES, YES. No matter what I lost, I would do it again because I did this for God and for His children. I did it because I loved my church and there were things going on that were very wrong and dangerous. Implementing dangerous and wrong doctrine and counseling was putting women and children in harm’s way (as more than one pastor said, they must stay even until death). This was only one part of what was wrong. The true Gospel was not being preached causing God’s people to stay in bondage to sin keeping them from experiencing the victory that is ours because of Jesus’ death on the Cross and His resurrection. I believe that the leaders, both pastors and apostles, even CJ himself, exposed their true hearts and yes even their true beliefs throughout this whole Chesapeake ordeal. The fact is that the leaders of this church alienated the “3 couples” and brought unbiblical church discipline against us bringing disunity within this congregation and judgement against us, the “3 couples”. There has been no resolution in this issue. It is hanging out there as unfinished business.
By threatening and slandering us, the ”3 couples” and “punching” us at the private meeting and now 1 1/2 years later, “punching” us again through Brett’s message calling all who have left prodigals, clearly it’s a one-two punch against the “3 couples”. Some who are presently in SGC are saying that things are really different and that much has changed. If that is true, why would Brett even bring up those who have left and imply that they are prodigals? Even if now, after the fact he is explaining that he was not speaking of those who left but truly prodigals, why would he have said it in this way? At the very least, it showed poor judgement, lack of wisdom and care for the people and the body of Christ. At the very least it was casual and callous of him to bring up those who have left and “you know the reasons they left were wrong.” I continue to wonder….how can SGC move forward in spiritual health as long as this “thing” is out there and over their heads?
Dear Light in the Darkness and Walking in Freedom,
Hi. This is just an encouragement to keep burning, even when it feels the rains are coming down threatening to put out that flame. Your love for the hurting and for truth are precious, precious in His sight.
If you are now being called a prodigal, join those of us who have been calle dit before. Six few years ago I was called a prodigal (no, literally, I was called one, too, by quite a few SGM friends, or rather ex-friends now). I was called a prodigall for obeying God and having the courage to leave my abusive, cheating and very, very, very vindictive husband. (Today alone I suffered another blow from him. One of a thousand or a million that I suspect will continue for the rest of my life for daring to leave him.) And yes, I was called a prodigal both in conversation and in writing for leaving him. (I have some nerve for going, don’t I?) And now I guess according to this individual who gave the sermon, I am also a prodigal for leaving my SGM church.
So I say to both of you, climb aboard the SS Prodigal and join the rest of us who have left over the years and also make room for the hundreds or thousands that will follow us in the future. There’s plenty of room here and the food’s not so bad. It’s full of people loved by God and redeemed by Him. I for one think I am going to embrace the title of Prodigal if they keep feeling fit to throw it at me. I figure there are only a couple characters in that story. The father, whom we all know is God, the prodigal son, the arrogant unrepentant brother, and the pigs. If we’re the prodigals, which ones do they want to be?
Waters, absolutely beautiful post! Thank you for sharing it.
Stunned- You are an overcomer —- the life of Christ is evident in you——- whatever your former spouse does/says…I pray the Lord will be a shield for you —that the shield of faith will be raised up —faith in Who God is (and He is the Lord, mighty in battle PS24) to quench and stop every fiery dart that would seek to steal your joy. You are the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, this is your standing and your identity. I pray Holy Spirit will comfort and strengthen you as you walk ahead …..through…….the thorns on your journey…..the glorious truth is—that all this while, as we seek Him and run to Him with our hurts—He is..changing us…from glory to glory…into His likeness.
What a glory…..What a Redeemer……What a Father God………
Waters, you think you can move in with me and just follow me around all day saying things like that? I’d appreciate it.
Dear Walking in Freedom,
Thankyou for posting— and I love your name!!
Walking, to state that you and the other 2 couples battled the great upheaval in Chesapeake ………with …..courage…..is an understatement. To recall that God Himself caused 3 couples to step up to the plate to be a voice and advocate for abused women
–oh, it is a glorious testimony!! Gods Light began to shatter darkness and strongholds of manipulations,deceit,control—-coming through pastors and 2 “apostles”.
I know that ‘Esther” was (and is) so overwhelmingly thankful —for up until then, her voice and desperation was cast aside—- but with you standing with her and on her behalf—the pastors and apostles could no longer bully her and threaten her with church discipline etc.
Thankyou, for obeying God, step by step—never realizing your church would turn against you…but as it became apparent that was the sgm and sgmchesapeake course—still, you counted the cost…….and obeyed God. You halted the dangerous doctrine KB and Purswell were preparing to institute. You sought to sound the alarms — you were all not only warriors—but “Watchmen on the Wall” pointing out the sources of destructive activity in leadership.——Prodigals??? (as BC has alluded to)
“Enemies of the Church” (as GE) declared????
NO, dear Walking in Freedom, BC and GE donot declare the truth.
The Truth—you were all the eyes,ears,heart, hands and feet of Jesus
Your Banner you walked under (and still do) is the Lords Proclomation:
He sent you to proclaim release to the captives,
and recovery of sight to the blind;
to set free those who are oppressed,
and to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord (Luke 4:18)
I am honored to state this again:
WELL DONE, FAITHFUL SERVANTS, WELL DONE
Walking in Freedom said, “Implementing dangerous and wrong doctrine and counseling was putting women and children in harm’s way (as more than one pastor said, they must stay even until death).”
Wait, I don’t get it, did the pastors mean until the death of the abusive husband or the deaths of the pastors themselves? If they meant the women and children had to stay and be abused until the death of the abusive husbands, I assume the pastors were making plans for the assasinations of the abusive husbands in order to protect the wives and children? Surely they were.
And if they meant that the abuse victims had to stay with their abusers until the deaths of the pastors, were they planning their own suicides? I hope not. Better for all the victims out there for the pastors to just step down and repent.
Either way, well done fellas. Thanks for all those years of protection!
PS. I’d like to believe that the pastors who made the “til death” comment were surely NOT talking about the natural deaths of one of the partners in the marriage. I mean, I’d hate to think any of you would be so insensitive as to actually expect a woman to STAY in an abusive situation. You wouldn’t do that, would you?
Though, if you’re living with an abusive man, a natural death isn’t always an option. Usually the stress will kill you (unless he does it first). Then again, sometimes getting murdered is not only a realistic option, but sometimes, a welcome alternative to having to live in that hell for a few more decades. Maybe the “up-side” to what you said is that living in an abusive marriage at least hastens the “til death” part.
Here’s a thought, let’s have whoever the pastor that said that move in with the abusive husband for the next 40 years. The pastor will have to love the abusive husband, serve him, submit to him in all things, be sweet, dress well for him, not “deny” him at night (come on guys, you can take it, after all, the abused wives have done it all these years), trust him in all things, believe the best about him, speak only well of him, give him your children and trust him to lead them well, respect him and do all the other countless things that are not only repulsive to the pastor, but also to God himself! Then let’s see his stance not be so freaking cold.
And don’t even BEGIN to go there and tell me that it is biblical to expect a woman or man to stay in abuse. Read the old and the new testaments. All of it. STUDY it like it actually means something. If you don’t know how to do it, go to Tyndale House and those who study the bible for a living and find out what the Jewish law had to say about abusive (or even neglectful) marriages. Grow up, grow a set and learn the word of God. Then start acting on it. It’ll change your life.
He’s Baaaack………..
Seems that Keith B just couldn’t stay away from Chesapeake. He’s holding an “interest meeting” there today after the service to discuss his upcoming church plant in Charlottesville. Read about it here.
Time for a pop quiz………..
Keith is back to
A) Seek financial support for his new misadventure
B) Seek willing drones to join him
C) Show that he still has some clout within SGM
D) All of the above
For extra credit……………
Why isn’t the Richmond church fully sponsoring him?
Is Eric willing to sponsor this plant (that was supposed to have been his in the first place)?
What is Chesapeake’s “share” of the cost of this plant?
Can the Richmond church not afford to pay for the plant?
Is the Richmond church unable (or unwilling) to send any families on the plant?
Can SGM really trust Keith not to run another church “into the ditch”?
So many questions….so little time.
N.S.L.B.
Quizzler,
Verrrrrrrry interrrrrrrrrrresting……….
Answer — D
And may I add…its all so…………T Y P I C A L
Over half of KingsWay has left the church and they must be in financial difficulty. I’ve been told that the mortgage on the building is $25,000 a month. There can’t possibly be any money to support Keith and his new church plant. And with over half of the members gone, KingsWay really can’t afford to send any members with him. (Although I do know at least one family that is thinking about going.)
Thank you Released for that information. What really concerns me is that a cult is coming to Charlottesville! There are unsuspecting people at the University of Virginia and surrounding area who may be taken in by the slick language and rhetoric of the SGM machine coming to town. Not so very long ago, Keith and his team of pastors in Chesapeake were threatening women with church discipline for not allowing abusive and/or adulterous husbands back into their beds! Sound the alarm!! Wave the red flags for their is danger in the air around Charlottesville, Virginia!!
There is such a sad, sick irony in the idea of an organization based on authoritarian, if not tyrannical rule setting up shop in the shadow of Monticello, the home of the author of the Declaration of Independence! Sad, tragic and pathetic. I pray God has mercy on the residents of Charlottesville!
Released reports:
Over H A L F the KingsWay congregants have left!!! WOW!!
Hmmmmmm I wonder how much TRUTH the Chesapeake congregants know about the revelations of lies, maligning of Brethren, and deceptions which GE has perpetrated upon his own ‘flock’——-Either they: Don’t know: Deflect the truth: Gloss over (scripture terms that as a whitewash); or choose not to care……..So truly sad to see the leaven of deception work its way into the hearts of the Brethren.
So Fred,
KB goes to KingsWay at the end of the Chesapeake upheaval (where he has been charged with disqualifying himself as a pastor)…to be “cared for” by Gene E.
Mentored by GE. Encouraged and discipled by GE.
Then the KingsWay upheaval occurs. Where was Keith?? Did he become an advocate on behalf of SW and the others who were attempting to bring justice on behalf of a brother who was maligned and scorned for TEN years? Where was he during the meetings??? What did he really learn from the Chesapeake trial?? Can someone from KW comment on that? I would love to be surprised.
And of course Steve S flew into Cheapeake to affirm KB and the Charlottesville church plant. Everyithing must be so very Biblically correct and in line to go forward (using some of that “rainey day fund” from Gaithersberg, I suppose?)
Fred, lets hope and pray SGM leadership has ceased and desisted from administering their abusive destructive unGodly cousel to women in crisis. If not, their arrogance and pride will continue to be brought to the light. God ALWAYS hears the cries of His Own.
And as RT said awhile back,….. lets remember to pray for the protection of the people in Charlottesville.
As I think about the pastors within SGM churches, I cannot but wonder what kind of pastors these young men would have been if they had never been associated with SGM. Would they have been pastors at all? Would they have found other professions or would they have felt the “call” to the ministry? As I think about these young men I am very sad. Sad that they have been deceived and taken advantage of by CJ and team. Sad that they have believed lies that have led them down the wrong path – a path of abuse, control, and manipulation. They have been seduced by the power, the prestige, the pride and the idolatry which drew them and caused them to cast aside the real Jesus Christ, the real body of Christ and real Christianity. How very sad for them, for their families and for their congregations. I lay this at CJ’s feet. He is the one responsible for creating this machine, for deceiving these young men, their wives and congregations.
There are many stories of abuse and manipulation that have never been published on any blogs but they are out there. As you learn more and more of the abuse, manipulation and yes perversion you become overwhelmed with the sheer darkness and evil which surrounds Sovereign Grace Ministries. My heart is so heavy as I consider this new church plant in Charlottesville, Va. for more people will be deceived, used, and taken advantage of. The possiblity of real abuse is always there within this SGM machine. The history of the movement proves this well. There have been so many people hurt and abused and yet, we have not seen repentance on the part of CJ for allowing “his” ministry to get so far off! Things continue on and they continue to plant more churches. More innocent saints will join their flocks never knowing what has gone on in the past. Parking lots will continue to fill up with cars and the deception continues. I cry out to the Lord……
Yes Defended, I agree with you completely. My heart is very heavy this morning for the people but I lean in, press into, and trust my wonderful Savior! He is my strong tower and He is the Light of the World that will break through this darkness.
Steve and Janis Shank were at the Chesapeake church this past weekend. Apparently he came to announce the new church plant!
The following was written by renee over on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com. It is a powerful post and one that I hope many will read here at Refuge. I am posting this with permission from renee.
123
renee
November 9th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
The Missus –
You know, I have no desire to gang up on you, either. I’m more interested in hearing your answers to questions than I am in getting into a debate. Really.
I wanted to go back to something mentioned earlier. Both Kris and Pilgrim touched on the idea that simply because a person hasn’t experienced X, doesn’t mean X isn’t real and damaging.
The Missus and other SGMers reading this, may I share something with you?
I lost my aunt and uncle to terrorism. While others can feel complacent about this issue, as time goes on and it doesn’t happen to them, my family and I can never be complacent on the issue. It happened to us, to my “tribe,” and it leaves a huge permanent fissure.
In the Muslim community at large, there is no NO collective outcry against terrorism. The people who don’t do these things themselves, the people who say that isn’t what Islam is all about, the people who haven’t experienced it themselves, remain silent in the face of repeated terrorist acts. They say nothing and it infuriates me. I don’t think I’m alone in this.
Is that kind of silence okay with anyone else reading this?
And what does the silence of the Muslim community suggest? Whatever it is, it’s not good, is it?
Maybe this seems like an extreme analogy, but bear with me.
People in your tribe — the family of Christ — have been wounded, broken, traumatized at the hands of SGM. Within the rank and file of SGM, there is no outcry, no defense mounted of their brothers and sisters. Many SGMers are simply silent. Some refuse to acknowledge these things even happen. Some throw it back in the faces of the wounded, calling them “bitter” and “unforgiving.”
That you and other SGMers haven’t experienced the wounds and abuses that many have doesn’t negate their experiences and it doesn’t take away their pain. You and other SGMers believe you’re part of great church, a solid organization. It’s nice to believe that. It is. But in the face of plenty of evidence to the contrary, how can you still hold to that view? How is there no outcry?
You know, the man who killed my aunt and uncle and 215 others was an Egyptian. In the aftermath of it all, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak said it was “culturally impossible” for an Egyptian to have done what he, in fact, did.
This event was pre-9/11.
The lead hijacker on 9/11 was Mohammed Atta.
He was Egyptian.
Just as 9/11 proved it’s not “culturally impossible” for Egyptians to commit acts of terror, these SGM blogs prove it’s not “culturally impossible” for Christians to perpetrate wrongs against other Christians. Your brothers and sisters on this blog are trying to bring that point home to you, time and time again.
What will it take for you, SGMers? Your own spiritual 9/11?
Is that what has to happen to make you believe the problems, the abuses, the wrongs are REAL?
Is that what you’re waiting for? For the towers of your faith to come crashing down?
I pray it’s not so. I really do.
Thankyou, Fred, for taking the time to transfer Renee’s post here at Refuge.
Renee, the parallel you illustrate above is breathtakingly clear — really –
The CHOICE to remain silent in the face of SGM’s proven deceptions, maulings, and twisting of Gods Word as the Brethren are manipulated is more than disappointing,
it is deeply sad……and well, frightening.
What manner of person chooses to look the other way and walk over the trail of mauled and discarded Brethren? Oh yes, Jesus gave the illustration of this in the parable of the good Samaritan. The religous ones walked around the wounded bleeding man— but the Samaritan man SAW the wounded man—and tended to him and carried him to a safe place. The Samaritan didnot charge the wounded man with “not being wise” going down that trail…Or “selfish” to walk alone to his destination…Or having an “agenda” of walking the road he chose……….His motive was selfless love as he SAW the wounded man.
The religous Pharisees became ALLIES of the perpetrators/bandits because of their skirting around the “issue”, and continuing on their journey as they ignored a bleeding man.
SGMers, as Renee has asked, if you believe the problems, the abuses, the wrongs are REAL —what will you do?
Renee, I pray the Lord will strengthen your family and that He will tangibly pour out His unfailing love upon each of you…….
I was one who ultimately ended up looking the other way when I had friends who were seriously hurt by SGM. In particular, two friends became single mothers through no fault of their own. They needed lots of love and support. Their children suffered. After one incident, I was actually visited by two “elders” who questioned me about one of these women since she had been a close friend of mine. Rather than offering support to this victim, they assigned blame to my friend who had suffered a most horrible injustice and betrayal at the hands of her husband. I never looked at the elders as “henchmen,” but perhaps, unwittingly, they were. I figure they were sent by someone to do damage control. The “spin” had already been decided. I fell in line. I have relived this many times. It’s difficult to fathom the depths of deception I was in. I had so much to lose (or so I thought) by leaving my “happiest place on earth.” My whole world was wrapped up in SGM. To speak up in her defense would have meant the end of my world as I knew it. I have no excuse. I am so grateful that God is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse me. Praise God.
For anyone who is still in SGM, take a look around you. Stand up for the weak and marginalized. God has called us all to do that. Don’t ignore the major disconnect between what is said (or preached) and what is done.
PK and PD,
We miss your voices…..
Just want to let you know am praying for you this morning……………
Col 1: 9-11– “That the Lord may continue to fill you with the knowledge of His will
in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, as you are walking in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the
knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious
might, for all endurance and patience with joy………”
Pilgrim,
Thankyou so much for writing.
I must tell you that I too was one that ignored the hurt of another—
Over ten years ago,I put on my best Stepfordite face ( my son-in-laws description!) and chose sides —two mothers were wounded because of the condition of their children and I chose to comfort one (the SGM member) and not the other (the former SGM member) . The smugness of my attitude makes me ill to this day. (And I too am thankful for Gods forgiveness and cleansing)
And, I am thankful, ever so, for … seeing… the pitiful depths of pride, arrogance and lording-over the SGM doctrine/polity/leadership manipulates Gods people with— because
we can ‘blow the trumpet’ to warn of their insidious actions.
Pilgrim, your description of the leaderships actions towards your friends who were cruelly victimized is so familiar —- many many many many many women can testify of this same pattern. The very pastor/elder she sought to trust for protection and care,became her accuser, maligner, and ally to the perpetrator. This is one of the most twisted, perverse and damaging results of the SGM teachings on pastoral authority and womens submission. Refuge readers, please remember that CJ has been given documented
accounts of these actions and patterns. Have we heard a cry of repentance and sorrow over such PATTERNS from the Gburg hill?? N O N E
The SGM pastoral/elder accusing and maligning of Brethren/congregants continues— as recently as the KingsWay upheaval. Just as in the pattern of discarding and then maligning abused women, D Harvey and GE confirm to the KingsWay congregants that they in fact have no valued input. Even though the Lord has moved on behalf of SW and brought to light the maligning and deceptions perpetrated by pastor/elder GE, SGM
employs Peacemakers to “bring peace”. (???????????????????)
Pilgrim exhorted for SGMers: “Don’t ignore the major DISCONNECT between what is said (or preached) and what is done”.
ASK QUESTIONS……………SEEK ANSWERS………….Sharpen sensitivity to the ‘checks’
and red flags Holy Spirit sends ——— the more He is ignored or deflected, the less His Voice and nudgings are heard.
He really does seek to deliver us from the ‘snare of the fowler’ — He has sovereignly delivered and redeemed us and our family member — Our healing is a process —but we are beyond thankful to begin to absorb the unfathomable depths of being loved and cared for by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There is none like Him……….
May the Lords Peace, which Jesus the Christ bequeathed to His Own, flood your spirit and mind, saints,— to hear Him above all voices and in all types of storms. He IS Truth!
He IS Life! He IS the door, the only door — and He opens ‘the way’ for us!
Love to you all, Waters
I, too, have regrets about how I treated some people as a PDIer/SGMer. It is so good that we look at our own weaknesses in following leaders who were doing wrong. Some of our mistakes were from ignorance and some from fear. Then there were the mistakes made because we decided to follow men instead of God. Understanding and acknowledging our own responsibility in cooperating with abusive leadership will bring more freedom and peace to our hearts.
Women, I think we are sometimes the subject of authoritarian abuse because of the way in which we are perceived by controlling leadership. No matter what is “said”, our rights and respect as co-heirs to the Kingdom are lost when only men do the leading/ministering. We seriously have to seek the Lord on what our positions are in the His Kingdom here on earth, first as servants (as all must be) and then as priests (which we all are). In all things, love is our guide. Some leaders and even their wives will not allow women members to achieve all that God has for them simply because of their gender. They should take an example from the page of Jesus’ life, who spoke to a Samaratin woman about her need for God. She then became an evangelist to her own town!
***Canary! *** So great to “see” you again……and as always, to hear you bring compassion along with wisdom……
Appreciate your points in regards to women. Strange that somehow the value of women
becomes lost in authoritarian culture/denominations. I love it that Jesus always HEARD women, just as He HEARD men. We are both of equal value to our Savior Redeemer!
The parallel in the Chespeake story and KingsWay upheaval is clear as in the light of day—for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear ——-The authoritarian manipulative control of SGM leadership/polity…maligns and seeks to silence Gods people…………
But then……”For such a time as this….” He raises up an Esther (Chesapeake story),
or an SW and MB and Mike D (the KingsWay story)—to become advocates of His Righteousness on behalf of Gods people. Why oh why that doesn’t cause SGM to realize the fear of God in their destructive mauling actions is a sad mystery to me……
You ask a good question, Water. Wish I had an answer. I don’t understand how people who say they know and love the Lord can be so self absorbed with their authority over others. I don’t get it…
Canary, SO GOOD TO “SEE’ YOU!!!! You have been sorely missed!! As usual your comments bring enlightment and wisdom. Please don’t fly away again!!!
Thanks Waters and Fred. Just needed a break from the battle.
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ canary!! }}}}}}}}}}}}}}
:*
Ellie, I’ve been meaning to call you. Expect it!
Canary said:
“I, too, have regrets about how I treated some people as a PDIer/SGMer. It is so good that we look at our own weaknesses in following leaders who were doing wrong. Some of our mistakes were from ignorance and some from fear. Then there were the mistakes made because we decided to follow men instead of God. ”
I am sure there are a lot of reasons why genuine Christians do this. One is that one many times emulates the characteristics of those they admire to. This emulation is really no surprise in SGM with the almost deification and admiration of leaders that goes on within SGM.
One person who was involved in a similar movement described it like a “drug” that blinded people. That is people were so driven to move up the “food chain” or leadership hierarchy that they did things including being abusive as a way to move up etc. The desire to fit in as well as the fact that others were doing this blinded them to how wrong it was what they were doing.
Very true, Steve 240. Those of us who fell into this sort of leader worship (or fear of leadership) would not have stumbled if the love of Jesus had been our guide. You mention it being like a drug. I remember feeling as though I’d come out of a fog after leaving PDI. I began to think more clearly. I had to get away from the controlling church to actually see how much of a trap it was for those of us who allowed men to be our mediators between ourselves and God. Now, Jesus stands in that place for me…by His mercy.
Hebrews 8:5-7 (New International Version)
5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
Peter 2
False Teachers and Their Destruction
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings-; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Sorry…that is SECOND Peter 2 ( 2 Peter 2 )