And John, thank you so much for what you said about moral relativism. Someone just the other day told me: “There are issues like these in all churches. SGM isn’t any different.” That type of moral relativism lessens the impact of what has been happening in these churches. It isn’t true either. But suppose it was. Just because other churches have also had child molestation issues and authoritarian heavyhandedness toward abused women and such does not in any way lessen the seriousness of these things!!

And of course he meant performed the ceremony, that’s why it was funny.

Sorry!

Glad it was helpful.  As far as dawn bible study goes they appear active.  

Reformed –

I think that was Gratefully, and I think he just meant “performed the ceremony”.    My grandparents belonged to rather mainstream religious groups and paid little attention to them.  Nothing exciting in my family’s religious past.

I’ll help put this together.   Russell is a full generation after we are talking about, Miller had died before Russell was born  in 1852.  Russell had quit Christianity in his early teens but at 18 (1870) met Jonas Wendell (1815-73) who was an Adventist and a former follower of Miller.  Wender puts Russell together with another Millerite George Storrs (1796-1879) who rebaptises Russell as an Adventist (1874).  He starts a preaching ministry with Nelson Barbor around that time…..

So…

SGM ain’t a reform’in any time soon, ya say? 

Guess I’ze hav’a little time ta color ma wiskers din… he he

Sopy

I’m a former Mormon, whose great grandparents were polygamists–so got quite a chuckle when I read that Russell married your grandfather and grandmother…hmmm, I thought, didn’t know the JW’s were polygamists, too.

Thanks for the (unintended) smile.

Why waste even a few decades?  SGM ain’t reforming next week.  If they become interested in reform next week it will still take a decade or more to make substantial change. 

Do we have a few centuries? >snicker<

he he  ;~)

Sopy

Well looks like we are getting closer here.  I think we may have started by talking past one another.  I gave SDA in response to Fred who was asking about cults (I assume) in the sense of destructive patterns of behavior rather than aberrant doctrines.  And in terms of Jehovah’s Witnesses no question the comparison is apt both SDA and JW came out of the Millerite movement, they are sister denominations. 

So for example when I read the list of actions as part of the “shut door doctrine” what I see is the Adventists moving much closer to normative Christianity from: a wild focus on an eminant apocylopse to more and more mainstream doctrines within a decade.  That’s progress in terms of moving away from an unnatural focus.  Similarly with your example of the heavenly santuary. Again White manages to move the act of salvation from the future (Millerite) to the past (normative Christianity) then moves it to a series of stages so that something important happened in 1844 but not the key defining act. 

That seems in my book to be normalizing the situation.  OTOH the purpose of the page is to argue that Mrs. White’s predictions were wrong, well yeah they were.  But from a church abuse standpoint correctness doesn’t really enter into it. 

I can imagine leaving SDA was traumatic.  Your family probably believes you have lost your salvation, the way you would look on your kids if they joined a Catholic church, or an affirming church.  So you have my empathy there.   Most of the big denominational families treat joining far off subgroups as being apostacy, scism, heresy…. 

Anyway my main point is that the SDA today is fairly mainstream.  And the Jehovah’s witnesses (who didn’t have an Ellen White) are a good example of what they probably would have looked like without her: bizarre doctrines, strong rules against reading non witness literature or using the internet for bible study, lifetime shunning for anyone who leaves….   I think you can agree under both definitions of a cult SDA meets far less criteria than the JWs do.  I will certainly agree the SDA are semi-palagians (like Catholics) do not (in any meaningful sense) affirm the 5 solas.

Shut door: Ellen White had visions supporting the Shut Door doctrine.
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw15.htm 

 Questions on Doctrine: That book was in response to Walter Martin’s book Kingdom of the Cults.
http://www.thebereans.net/sda-drMartin.shtml  

One of the doctrines that is way off base is the Sanctuary Doctrine. http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw10.htm  

I did take a look at your cult list. When I say that the SDA church is cultic, I don’t mean in the sense of Jonestown or Heaven’s gate. I put them in the same boat as Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. There is a cultic hold for those of us who are called out. I have experienced it. I came out of it. It was very traumatic to leave an organization where I had spent all my life and where most of my family remain. Early on when the Lord was calling me out, I was afraid that I would be deceived and lose my salvation. When you leave the Adventist church (denomination as a whole) for any reason other than death, it is termed “apostasy.”

I am not a theologian, but a very busy home-schooling mom. Got to get back to work!
xsda

P.S. The last part of my first post for the readership of this blog.

Well I took a look at  former adventist website and I couldn’t find much about the 1844-1849 period.  Could you point me to a specific page on it so I have some idea what exactly you believe White did to make the group more extreme than it was?   I’m losing your thread here.

And I agree that are not Protestants, I called the kissing cousins and I stand by that.  The Lordship debate (do we we need to submit to Christ’s lordship or just have faith in the effectiveness of his sacrifice to trust in Christ alone) I think is a legitimate split between protestants.  Clearly SDA is on the Lordship side. 

So really it then comes down to what acts  can be openly practiced, and which are sins.  By and large the list is pretty similiar between SDA and protestants, no major divergences.  There are some minor divergences on areas having to do with things like dietery codes.  Finally there are some hermaneutical differences and they reject more “unbiblical tradition” (like Sunday sabbath)

You interpret the bible using schemes from writers like Luther and Calvin, they use a very similar scheme from Ellen White.  From their statement of beliefs: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

Conversely reformed protestants use systematic theologies for authorative source of the truth on matters of doctrine, instruction and correction derived from the bible by which all teaching is tested.  I don’t see that much of a difference.  I don’t want to take us too far off topic but there are lots of ways to read the bible. 

As for using “the apologetics group” for a neutral definition of cult…. this is a group which is openly identifying itself with reformed Christianity.  I could pull you similar definitions from Catholic sites that show how presbyterians are unbiblical heretics.  I have a 100 question cult test on my blog which IMHO is far more neutral. 

Several months ago I was led to this sight because I was looking for a quote from CJ Mahaney. I ended up on SGM surviors and then here. I had no idea the problems that were going on in the “Happiest Place on Earth.”  My current church is not sgm, but they look up to SGM and I think at one time thought to become part of the network. I think they even try to model some of the things that SGM does. I used to see things that would send up a little red flags, but I would ignore it.  I praying that God will give me and my family wisdom as we struggle with “should we stay or should we go” from our present church.
Jesus is my Sabbath rest.
xsda

Worldwide church of God.  Used to be shocking legalistic where people were excommunicated for things like using cosmetics.  As well as doctrinially off the wall.  Today no one accuses them of being abusive and most evangelicals would say they are at least as orthodox as liberal christian churches.

A very large group of Millerites had develped a lot of highly cultic doctrines.  For example the philosophy called “shut door” that salvation was not longer possible for man, the door to heaven had shut in 1844.  A variety of Millerite leaders like Ellen White started reforming the movement and pulling it back towards the mainstream.  Today the Seventh Day adventists while not quite evangelical are kissing cousins and Christian. 

Going back even further:

The Dominicans.  This started as an anti-heretical group which caused them to become anti-corruption.  When conversation failed to convince the Albigensians (Cathars) they turned to genocide, and went on became the backbone of the inquisition.  But there anti-corruption spirit influenced the entire Augustinian movement they also became the backbone of the protestant reformation.  In other words this genocidal cult reformed and a few hundred years later would lead to the reformation of all of Christianity.

Brüder und Schwestern des Freien Geistes (Brethren of the Free Spirit) was a semi Christian cult consisting of a group of peasants who rejected all authority; robbed from the church and nobility, and were involved in raping, pillaging from town to town to break up social structures.  There ideas like priesthood of the believer and the equality of all men before God helped them turn into the Lollards (forerunners to the Episcopalians), Waldensians (intellectual forerunners to the Baptists)….  So you can see even in the most extreme cases a few centuries can make a huge difference. 

All it takes is their leadership’s desire to change.  And frankly as their leadership starts to not be treated as the leaders of a legitimate church that will happen.  I can’t think of a church better suited for even moderate public pressure. 

Keep up the good work.